terminus wrote:Please, let's not start an argument in a rumor thread. The majority of their HQs do not alter the way their army functions, only three do, and only one in any way that's significant (if mass DC is considered significant). Space Wolves were just an example. BA librarians' powers are comparable to C:SM, Tyranids, and even IG (they just have weaker psykers and set choices), so this is simply a 5th edition trend. I understood your point, I just don't think your envy is warranted (at least as far as specifically directed at Blood Angels), as the "levels of synergy, fluff and theme" are no higher than any other 5th edition codex.

Any argument started with your post.

I made a general statement and you felt the need to dissect my post. All I ask is that you dissect things I actually said/meant. I made a statement about how I as a chaos player am envious of a 5th edition codex like the blood angels with its strong theme, synergy stemming from leading units, and fluff. You made a reply about how good/bad the hq synergy/psyker powers/tycho were.

You are still saying things like "only one in any way that's significant" in response to me saying that the new codex has things in it that alter other units. I don't care if blood angels have the worst force multiplying/altering choices in the game because they still have something whereas older codexes have nothing like that.

Then: "BA librarians powers are comparable to C:SM, tyranids, and even IG". As I said before, I was surprised that a chapter that is all about getting up close and personal, and losing control of their thoughts/actions would have a strong (note: I didn't say "strongest" or "stronger than xxxxx" chapter/army) psyker power list. You should also recognize that all of the codexes you listed are updated for 5th edition.

Finally: "I just don't think your envy is warranted as the levels are no higher than any other 5th edition codex". A 4th edition codex user is unwarranted to envy a 5th edition codex that is leaps and bounds ahead of his own in terms of synergy, fluff, and theme?

I state the obvious advantages of units or rules when it is not so clear, but to some it seems farfetched especially when you are trying to argue with people that make statements such as

terminus wrote:And there's absolutely zero reason to field tactical squads

I think that the sanguinary squad with a sanguinary priest would make a decent unit, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's.

DELETED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION

What does the deathmask do?

I think it makes people WS1 if they fail a LD. check.

Shelegelah wrote:I'm with you on the envy, Halsfield. Alas, poor Chaos... You're falling behind the bend.

Oh well, at least the Terminator Lord/Sorcerer kit is still as badass as ever.

CSM have some o the best looking models, we are in dire need. i want a new codex!

We do indeed have some of the best looking models, but we also have some pretty bad ones. I'm not a fan of the plague marines, they just don't seem to go together very well to me(although I've only purchased a single squad of them, might have been a bad batch), and we all know the brick of a Chaos Dread is an eyesore beyond belief. (Although this is pretty handily mitigated by the glorious Forgeworld models. Oh god they're wonderful.)

So yeah, besides the aforementioned, we do have some killer models.

So imagine how awesome they'll be after the next re-do.

dont tease me with the thoughts! BTW PM forgeworld conversions are EXCELLENT!!

sooooo i migt be converting some CSM from BA

Anyone want 7 painted BA tactical squads? :( I guess they can be cannon fodder in my apoc games

Kirasu wrote:Anyone want 7 painted BA tactical squads? :( I guess they can be cannon fodder in my apoc games

That makes me sadface for your army.

too bad they cant be like Space Wolves, where the only real visual difference between Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard are the pack markings.

Kirasu wrote:Anyone want 7 painted BA tactical squads? :( I guess they can be cannon fodder in my apoc games

Rip their arms off, give them close combat weapons & pistols = assault marines = useful again

Did a quick game of how expensive can I make a unit in the GW shop today 30 man Death company all with thunderhammers and jump packs, 6 with melta pistols and lemartes comes out to around 2200pts.

After reading through the book, especially looking at points, the army looks compitent, but not ridiculous.

-Mephiston is a tank, but a non-fearless, non-Independent Character tank that only moves faster than infantry if he uses a psychic power and has no invul save and costs alot. It's not that he isn't good, but you either give him a transport all to himself (presumably the rest of the thing is occupied by his awesomeness) or gamble on being able to get off a power every round.

-Only 1 of the characters is an eternal warrior and they're all fairly pricey. The eternal warrior has the Mephiston problem of not being an IC and being the most expensive of the group. Admittedly though he could still be worth it giving some solid buffs and being pretty brutal in combat.

-Sanguinary guard look hot, but at around 40 a model with no invul save to speak of, they fall apart to shooting real damn quick.

-Stormravens are solid, but really expensive for an AV12 limiting both how many you can take and the size of your army.

-Death company are nice, but without rending they lose a good bit of their impact, so you'll probably spend quite a bit more on upgrade weapons and they have the negative point of not being scoring and having rage. A 30 man blob of death company will probably be chasing a landspeeder like slowed puppies for the bulk of the game. The big motivation to take them seems more about the death company dread than any real stregth of the unit.

-The Librarian dread is awesome incarnate. With the right weapons and powers he could eat 30 Orks in a single combat round without breaking a sweat. He's not cheap, but he really shouldn't be for what he can do.

-Baal Predators get the same high marks as the Libby dread. There isn't much fierce competition in the FA section and getting a scouting fast pred that can take 3 flamer weapons is just plain amusing. Being able to scout 18" forward then move 6" and fire all 3 flame templates just screams to be abused and the cost is very reasonable.

-Fast Rhinos is the biggest change. Everything else is so much window dressing when the army pays a mere extra 15 points to have fast transports everywhere. Seems like a compitent blood angel build will just be some assault squads with sanguinary priests in fast rhinos everywhere.


The big stumbling block for the entire army is points. Points just keep falling into a vaccum until you've spent 2000pts and have an army with a model count of 25 which makes you really vulnerable to not getting first turn against IG. Despite all the madness you can do, it looks like a more conservative build with only a few shiny toys is probably a better approach.

Tony the guardsman wrote:I have a Mephiston!!!Owned!!!Just kidding
I just don't know if Mephiston has an invul or not,if would be really sad if he doesn't


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He would be the best model in the game if he does
AND PEOPLE!WATCH OUT, GW MAKE BETTER ARMIES EVERY MONTH TO MAKE YOU SPEND MONEY,DUN FALL FOR IT!!!

He doesnt

LOL... Mephiston and Solo Angel Man don't have the normal IC/MC benefit of move through cover or Masterful Rider.

the sanguinator doesnt either?

I didn't think he was an IC, so he wouldn't have those unless specifically in his profile.

IronfrontAlex wrote:the sanguinator doesnt either?

no. he has wings though and a 2+/3++
mephiston just has 2+

I'm wondering if the Sanguinor would be better than Mephiston.


Why are all your posts erased terminus?

I deleted them because this isn't the rumor thread, and there were only two people responding. One decided to turn the thread into a personal soap box about his outdated codex, and the other is a person I dislike so intensely, that if I was transported into the past and presented with a young Hitler and that person's granddad, and I was given a gun with two bullets, I would not hesitate to plug both into grampa just to be sure.

Anyway, I've reposted all the information in the rumor thread if you're looking for it. If you think of something that hasn't been spoiled already, ask there and I will check it out tomorrow morning at the shop.

You know what, Blood angles can take six tanks...

Six fast tanks....with a lot of guns...assault cannons, heavy bolters, autocannons...then more fast transport tanks......

I donno if I'm afraid or in love!

This whole thread is based upon "rumors" until the codex is released to the public april 3rd. The mods can move the entire thread if they think this is misplaced.

terminus wrote: One decided to turn the thread into a personal soap box about his outdated codex and the other is a person I dislike so intensely, that if I was transported into the past and presented with a young Hitler and that person's granddad, and I was given a gun with two bullets, I would not hesitate to plug both into grampa just to be sure.

There really isn't any point in deleting the other posts when you make comments like this that just spark the fire of the earlier argument you started.

starbomber109 wrote:You know what, Blood angels can take six tanks...

Six fast tanks....with a lot of guns...assault cannons, heavy bolters, autocannons...then more fast transport tanks......

I donno if I'm afraid or in love!

Definitely going to be fun to play some proxy blood angels games when it comes out. I would like to see how they match up against the other newer codexes, especially space wolves. Both are very heavy on the close combat, both have some nasty fast attack selections, and both have some interesting psyker powers. Actually, let's go one better. 4 way apoc battle: Space wolves vs Blood angels vs Khorne csm vs Slaanesh csm. One giant bloody mashup in the middle of the board.

DarkHound wrote:

sourclams wrote:Like the Nid codex, it definitely doesn't seem like there are obvious 'win' combos that someone can download off the Internet and just start raping face with.

Which is a good thing. Same thing with the Space Wolf codex before it. I think GW is learning.

Its evolving....

And on a side note, just looked at the Blood angles release page. I need me some death company. They scream sterngaurd conversion time.

I kinda like these Blood Angels. I mean, they really appeal to me, not like the space wolves or the Templars.

They are certainly fantastical (I think that's the operative term for a lot of their options), so if/when Chaos gets redone in the same vein, it will be some 2nd edition style crazy. As for Space Wolves, they do have a great codex, but I'd say they work better as a variation on the traditional SM tactics of rapid fire drive-bys and long-range firepower (and using counter assault and the totem to hit back when assaulted). While the 15-man Blood Claws squad with a Chaplain charging out of a Land Raider will mess some stuff up, I don't think overall they hold a candle to the "FNP+FC everywhere" Angels. Well, I guess they could get FC if they bring Ragnar, but he's as crazy expensive as Mephiston or Astaroth. I'm guessing we'll be seeing Astaroth and Sanguinor a lot more often as conversions standing in for more subdued HQs than the actual character. Space Wolves are the better psykers, while Angels are faster and can put more armor on the field. Overall, both provide very distinct and effective playstyles.

If we don't get a book for Inquisition/Sororitas, Dark Eldar or Chaos this year, I'll probably be doing a DIY Chaos-y chapter using the Wolves codex. I'll mix the SW plastic kits with Chaos ones, use Possessed Space Marines for the Mark of Wulfen, either Chaos Spawn or Bloodcrushers for Thunderwolf cavalry, and some sort of crazed cultist figure to represent the Fenris wolves (maybe those old 4th edition Witch Elves I have laying around). Some of the beefier Chaos Warrior characters may even make for great Lone Wolves with a bit of conversion work.

Just today at my store, I noticed they had the BA codex as a preview. One of the guys working there said there was a lot of powerful stuff, but I didn't get to see it all myself. It can't be that bad, but I have no doubts that the new BA are going to be quite good, at least from what I saw.

I know. My friends are getting tired of me saying, "When the new BA dex comes out, I cant wait to run sanguinary priests alonside my TH/SS terminators..."

I can only imagine the amount of firepower those guys will soak up. Normally its hails of bolter or las fire that force me to roll lots of dice, resulting in failed saves. With FNP, that will all change...

Yeah, I'm definitely bringing Psyker Battle Squads and praying my BA opponents don't roll a 1 for Red Thirst.

FNP does give you a massive advantage . . . and iirc then 5 death company are 100 points . . . =O . . . and so are 5 assault marines . . . =O

Sorry but that is crazy cheap for what looks like 2 of the greatest troop choices available to Marines. Obviously we'll have to see how they play, but for their standard points and abilities, that's a pretty crazy match up. I was expecting more than 5 more points than a vanilla marine . . .

Oshova

Oshova wrote:FNP does give you a massive advantage . . . and iirc then 5 death company are 100 points . . . =O . . . and so are 5 assault marines . . . =O

Sorry but that is crazy cheap for what looks like 2 of the greatest troop choices available to Marines. Obviously we'll have to see how they play, but for their standard points and abilities, that's a pretty crazy match up. I was expecting more than 5 more points than a vanilla marine . . .

Oshova

Your comparison is flawed. 5 Assault Marines with JUMP PACKS cost 100 points. 5 Death Company with JUMP PACKS costs 175 points. 5 Assault Marines on foot cost 65 points. 5 Death Company on foot cost 100 points. The AM are a scoring unit while the DC aren't. The DC have an extra point of WS and A and they automatically FNP and FC but suffer from rage. Jump packs are so overpriced for DC that they can never be worth it, but if you don't feel like using Sanguinary Priests I guess a unit of DC infantry in a Land Raider could almost be worth the cost. Why wouldn't you want to use Sanguinary Priests though? They are medics that are finally very much worth it. Marines & Medics! Let's tag it M&M like in Starcraft.

Furioso Dreadnoughts with the magna grapple seem nice. It costs 140 points but can fire the meltagun and the grapple to 12", both being S8 weapons, meaning it has decent short range anti-tank power. Now if he then succeeds to roll equal or over the enemy vehicle's armour on a D6+8 afterwards, the tank is pulled 2D6 towards the Furioso. I might be stating the obvious, but even at max range you only need to roll 6 on a 2D6 to be able to assault the tank afterwards. The only issue is how to get a bunch of Furiosos close to the enemy. I guess drop poding them is the only viable option.

I was using the standard lay out of the squads . . . And yeah I agree that DC in jumpacks are far too over priced.

Also with the Furioso . . . WS6, Front AV13, and you can equip it with the dreadnought version of lightning claws, that not only allow you to re-roll wounds, but for every unsaved wound you do you get another attack. Yes, this does carry on going until you fail to do anything or the squad is dead. =O

Oshova

I think I got the points costs accurate for the following army, so this is what could be a nice and small core list to brainstorm around. The list would like a Sanguinary Priest in there somewhere and I'd like lascannon sponsons on the HS Predators but this means the loss of an entire AM squad and their tank. These upgrades are easy to fit in 1750p and 1850p or 2000p lists. Anyway:

1500 points Blood Angels

-Librarian, Blood Lance, Undecided 2nd Power

-5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Hand Flamer, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun

-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters

-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters

Therion wrote:I think I got the points costs accurate for the following army, so this is what could be a nice and small core list to brainstorm around.

1500 points Blood Angels

-Librarian, Blood Lance, Undecided 2nd Power

-5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Hand Flamer, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun

-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters

-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters

I was reading the new codex the other day. Some guy in the store suggested something very similar and scary. Instead of 3 predators, he suggested 3 vindicators. The baal predators will open up tanks, and the vindicators will clean up whatever come out of those tanks. Either way, I'm scare of the new BA codex.

Fast Vindicators aren't bad but for the above list you have to remember they cost 45 points more each than the Dakka Predators, and like I said above if I did have the extra points I'd still keep the Predators but just upgrade the sponsons to lascannons. To each their own.

I was thinking along the lines of a couple of furiosos, Mephiston, Librarian Drednought, 10 Death Company in Rhino, Baal with AC . . . not sure about the rest though. Possibly a Death Company Dread or 2 cos I can lol.

But I'm loving those fast vindicators . . . should be nice and mobile =D

Oshova

There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

schadenfreude wrote:There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

YOU!

Stop giving me reasons to start Blood angels

Fast Heavy Wepons? YES PLEASE!

FNP Devs? Where do I sign up?

OH MY GAWD
THEY HAVE BECOME SELF AWARE!
RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love the new blood angels, plus that list is just nasty.
I saw one list of a dark eldars, it had 15 transports, with 15 squads, all of which came down to 1,500 points.

If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that. I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

crazypsyko666 wrote:If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that, I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

How is it MEQ power creep with IG as one of, if not the, best army in the game?

i dont know either. It seems to me like everyone says, look at my uber list that will kill everything. A second later someone says, well the list that I usually run will rape that over and over.

no list is unbeatable. No list is unkillable. Nature of the game.

Yep.
Bad rolling of dice.

Dont dismiss the sanguinary priest in the honor guard

For 115 pts you get 4 veterans + sanguinary priest who has WS4 instead of 5.. According to the codex "veterans" are 20 pts each which means you may 15 points for the sanguinary priest instead of 30 you do in the elite slot..

If you want to put jump packs on them you're paying 50 pts for 5 men where as the elite entry has to pay 25 pts for 1 jump pack.. It's a decent alternative if you want to use your 3 elite slots on frag cannon dreadnoughts which can dominate entire squads.. or more terminators

Khornatedemon wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that, I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

How is it MEQ power creep with IG as one of, if not the, best army in the game?

I'm not saying it's JUST MEQ power creep, but given the frequency of MEQ updates, (three out of... five codexes in 5th?) it's mostly marines getting a greater edge. It's really all of the 5th ed. codexes.

Except for the CSM. They don't count.

That is because marines make up the majority of their sales, every new codex is going to get better.

Do you think lightining claws will become more popular with sanguinary priest? You can have furious charge and feel no pain making them both more survivable and deadly in cc.

I think they will to an extent. Without nullzone LC's will still probably fail against rival th/ss termies. You will probably see a mix of LC's and TH's especially to offset the cost og the th's. I'm leaning toward 2-3 LC guys in a 7 man squad.

If 5 LC Terminators with Furious Charge get the charge against 5 TH/SS Terminators, they will get 20 attacks, which will result in 10 hits, 8.8888 wounds, and 2.96 kills. The remaining 2 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 4 attacks, which will result in 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, and 1.11 kills.

If the LC Terminators do not have Furious Charge, they will get 20 attacks, which will result in 10 hits, 7.5 wounds, and 2.5 kills. The remaining 2.5 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 5 attacks, which will result in 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, and 1.38 kills.

If the TH/SS Terminators charge, the LC Terminators will go first with 15 attacks, which will result in 7.5 hits, 5.63 wounds, and 1.88 kills. The remaining 3.12 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 9.36 attacks, which will result in 4.68 hits, 3.9 wounds, and 2.6 kills.


LC Terminators will beat TH/SS Terminators on the charge and lose to TH/SS Terminators if charged, presuming average rolls.

Yet another case that boils down to . . . OMG! You charged me, well I lost.

But as we all know this doesn't always work. On Monday, 20 Ork Boyz charge into 5 Deathwing . . . 2 rounds of combat later, the Sgt walks away covered in blood, and the remains of the orks fester on the ground =D That's how we do it in the Dark Angels baby! =D

But yeah, FC on LC is just mean mean mean . . . where can I buy them from? . . . Oh I can give them FNP for 50 points aswell? yes please? =D

Oshova

FNP actually has little effect on LC Terminators, since people are going to want to bring AP 1/2 weapons against them anyway. In my opinion, it's much stronger on TH/SS guys, since such a unit is difficult to attack with almost any weapon. However, Furious Charge is almost completely useless on TH/SS guys.

The question is, which is better: FnP on TH/SS, or FC on LC?

Fetterkey wrote:FNP actually has little effect on LC Terminators, since people are going to want to bring AP 1/2 weapons against them anyway. In my opinion, it's much stronger on TH/SS guys, since such a unit is difficult to attack with almost any weapon. However, Furious Charge is almost completely useless on TH/SS guys.

The question is, which is better: FnP on TH/SS, or FC on LC?

It all really boils down to the role. if you have them in a LR pushing forward and assaulting I'd go with the FC LC flavour. IMO anyway.


On a side note I actually went into a GW store (first time ever actually) and took a look at the 'Dex. I'm really not too worried about it, at first people will be like 'oh crap you can do what?' but eventually it'll be normal and all will be well.

It's nice that more people are getting a look at everything and finally starting to look at the drawbacks instead of the whole "OMFG BA ARE GONNA OWN EVERYONE"

The new fast vehicle blood angels look like they might just keep up with dark eldar... MAYBE. I guess a few more dark lances are in order.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.

For the same price the SW will bring 15 heavy weapons. Considering FNP doesn't work against missile launcher hits I'm pretty sure the Long Fangs draw the long stick in this one. Additionally I can't really see the 50 point investment being worth it since most ranged weapons the Devastators have to worry about don't allow FNP saves, and the Devastators don't really gain anything from having furious charge. I'd still go with the fast Predators.

It's nice that more people are getting a look at everything and finally starting to look at the drawbacks instead of the whole "OMFG BA ARE GONNA OWN EVERYONE wrote:

Ive read it and even played with it.. Still trying to figure out these disadvantages? LC terminators cost the same, the land raider costs the same.. I guess having to pay 50 pts for FNP and FC within 6" is a disadvantage? I mean its 50 pts right? Nothing costs more than C:SM and is better, its just like space wolves except BA are basically the exact same.. but better

The only thing BA doesnt have is Vulkan and its sad how much of a crutch that guy has become..

Kirasu wrote:Nothing costs more than C:SM and is better, its just like space wolves except BA are basically the exact same.. but better

You can have 3 C:SM rhinos for 2 Blood Angel Rhinos is that what you mean by the same.

Well yes, you pay 15 pts for a fast vehicle.. I was more talking about the troops. Also its *not* 3 for 2.. Its more like "Tactical squads suck but hey! BA get assault squads as troops.. so Ill play them like tacticals. Now my rhinos cost 15 points")

So that lovely 3 for 2 argument turns into 1:2 .. Ive been playing BA since I was a kid and have a huge collection, so I got no problems having a new book.. Id just like someone to point out ACTUAL disadvantages..

Using tactical squads and paying 50 pts for their rhinos is a disadvantage yeah.. thats why you dont take them

Does anyone think three Furiosos with meltaguns and magna-grapples (140p each) could work without Drop Pods or Storm Ravens? Consider for example a 1750p list with Librarian, 6 Predators, 3 Razorbacks + AM squads (meltaguns), and 3 running Furiosos. The Dreadnoughts would run for the first turn or two, taking cover saves behind the Rhino-chassis tanks but then they'd be shooting and charging left and right. The list would be very saturated with AV13 (12 vehicles total of which 9 are AV13) and they take care of many close combat problems while also having an anti-tank threat range of 18" each turn.

I've been playtesting the Storm Raven and really like the ability to transport a Dreadnought. An almost 23" assault range (12" move, 2" deployment, 3" base, 6" charge) means that unless my transport goes down it gets where I want it. I've also been surprised by the Storm Ravens survivability. The rear armor 12 is super huge and so is the anti-melta armor. I think I like the Storm Ravens because they let me set the tempo of the game. But fast flame storms are just plain awesome! They eat entire dismounted marine squads like candy

Kirasu wrote:Well yes, you pay 15 pts for a fast vehicle.. I was more talking about the troops. Also its *not* 3 for 2.. Its more like "Tactical squads suck but hey! BA get assault squads as troops.. so Ill play them like tacticals. Now my rhinos cost 15 points")

So that lovely 3 for 2 argument turns into 1:2 .. Ive been playing BA since I was a kid and have a huge collection, so I got no problems having a new book.. Id just like someone to point out ACTUAL disadvantages..

Using tactical squads and paying 50 pts for their rhinos is a disadvantage yeah.. thats why you dont take them

When you compare our assault marines to c:sm assault marine discount you are still paying more right? You cant compare tact squad to assault marine you have to compare c:sm assault marine to blood angel assault marine if you want to compare prices. I am fighting a losing battle here the interwebz think that tactical squads suck, why do I even try?

I'm not afraid of the new Blood Angels Codex......Sounds like Dark Eldar on Crack, thats all. The tactics looks and sounds that same.

played a small test game against BA today, guy was testing out everything but his list had

One of the dreads with blood tallons.
A librarian with the lance and might
Three Baal Preds
Three Assault-cannon razorbacks.(one assault squad, two flamer/LC tactical squads)
And one of those FNP-FC priest dudes.

And I was playing some orks

Highlights of the battle:
Assalut cannons stopped my wagon rush
(he scouted his preds INTO ASSAULT RANGE )
Libby missed with his lance TWICE.
I assaulted that dread with meganobz thinking "He's got 3 attacks, its not a DCCW, 3 MANz will live, and shred the thing with the 12 PK attacks" but no, it ate the whole squad, the warboss, and the big-mek!
Failed to stop the fast razors, ate flamethrowers.

Short: The blood lance is not that cool guys, all the fast tanks and crazy dreads are!

CKO wrote:[/quote="When you compare our assault marines to c:sm assault marine discount you are still paying more right? You cant compare tact squad to assault marine you have to compare c:sm assault marine to blood angel assault marine if you want to compare prices. I am fighting a losing battle here the interwebz think that tactical squads suck, why do I even try?"

Why do I have to compare assault squads to assault squads? Im comparing SCORING units.. you know the units that matter. C:SM assault squads are never ever used (at least Ive never seen one and we have a lot of marine players), why? Because they arent very good due to being fast attack.

Yet BA assault squads score, so yes I will compare them to tactical marines since the ONLY REASON to ever use tactical marines is to score. It's even been stated in this thread that people just want to sit them on objectives. Thus if the primary driving force behind the selection of a unit is to score then it is fair to compare other scoring units

10 assault marines have 1 more special weapon and a lot more assault potential. 250 points gets you 2 flamers, a power fist and a rhino where as a tactical marine squad is 245 for 1 flamer, a missile launcher, power fist and a rhino. Knowing the strength of the BA is using furious charge its rather silly to sit back and fire with boltguns instead of BP + charge.. Again, what is the purpose of the tactical squad? Im sorry you think the interwebs is against it, but tactical marines have been awful for a decade

The only reason people took them is because they have to.. If chaos space marines only had 1 troop option theyd take more chaos marine squads too! but instead they take plague marines and berserkers more often..

Therion wrote:Does anyone think three Furiosos with meltaguns and magna-grapples (140p each) could work without Drop Pods or Storm Ravens? Consider for example a 1750p list with Librarian, 6 Predators, 3 Razorbacks + AM squads (meltaguns), and 3 running Furiosos. The Dreadnoughts would run for the first turn or two, taking cover saves behind the Rhino-chassis tanks but then they'd be shooting and charging left and right. The list would be very saturated with AV13 (12 vehicles total of which 9 are AV13) and they take care of many close combat problems while also having an anti-tank threat range of 18" each turn.

Yes, Ive been testing furiosos out and they are amazing. In that scenario you could walk them behind as counter assault. Blood talons are pretty over the top for being free. Who needs S10 when youre S6 lightning claws that give extra WS6 attacks? one furioso can basically kill entire squads now before they even attack

Kirasu wrote:10 assault marines have 1 more special weapon and a lot more assault potential. 250 points gets you 2 flamers, a power fist and a rhino where as a tactical marine squad is 245 for 1 flamer, a missile launcher, power fist and a rhino. Knowing the strength of the BA is using furious charge its rather silly to sit back and fire with boltguns instead of BP + charge.. Again, what is the purpose of the tactical squad? Im sorry you think the interwebs is against it, but tactical marines have been awful for a decade

You are able to take advantage of the cc ability of the assault marines, when they are using rhinos?

Kirasu wrote:The only reason people took them is because they have to.. If chaos space marines only had 1 troop option theyd take more chaos marine squads too! but instead they take plague marines and berserkers more often..

Who would want a t 4 av 3 save as their basic troop choice? I am glad that I have been playing IG for a long time, I just seem to appreciate certain things more so then other players.

Kirasu wrote:Yes, Ive been testing furiosos out and they are amazing. In that scenario you could walk them behind as counter assault. Blood talons are pretty over the top for being free. Who needs S10 when youre S6 lightning claws that give extra WS6 attacks? one furioso can basically kill entire squads now before they even attack

Who needs the assault abilities of the assault marines when you can have these guys doing the real damage in cc?

No, I like the assault marines aswell but I appreciate tactical squads just as much.

schadenfreude wrote:There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

And these things will change the metagame. It's happened before. Instead of using Trygons with lots of shots, people may use Mawlocs. If it hits, goodbye Dev Squad. And that is only one of many scenarios. Sometimes codices will change the way the game is played, sometimes they don't. Nids didn't really because they didn't make you fret anymore than IG did. Space Wolves raised some eyebrows, but BA are really making you rethink your lists.

Also, not everyone is going to be playing BA. I remember when Wolves came out, my brother and I (who go to tournaments together) thought we'd see a massive influx of Wolf players. Not so. Nids were a little worse, but I think that BA will be on that same level: two or three lists at the tournament. Even then, it comes to the skill of the player, the way the dice roll out, the deployment, the terrain - you name it. It's not like the players place their BA army on the board and then fill out the Win column of their scorecard.

I'm really looking forward to the all-assault squad with no tanks that seeks to "surprise" me with not taking any vehicles, making me waste all my anti-tank weaponry!

I plan to show them why they should have left their jump packs at home

Oshova wrote:Also with the Furioso . . . WS6, Front AV13, and you can equip it with the dreadnought version of lightning claws, that not only allow you to re-roll wounds, but for every unsaved wound you do you get another attack. Yes, this does carry on going until you fail to do anything or the squad is dead. =O

Yeah, basically, unless the unit has an invulnerable save or you roll two 1s in a row to wound (<3% chance), he will annihilate an entire unit.

I'm not really sure about this stuff about assault marines always being better.

If there is an objective in the back, then your assault weapons, furious charge, and extra attacks mean nothing. All the advantages of assault marines are essentially unused. Especially if you're facing a shooty army whose strategy is to try to contest instead of assault.

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to have a tactical squad with a razorback?

Considering that 2 out of 3 missions are objectives, it seems very sensible to take at least 1 tactical squad.

Also, range is not to be underestimated. I understand that yes, razorbacks are the ranged shooting. With the fast rule, the razobacks can move and shoot. But if the razorback dies, you have 12" range. Razorbacks aren't hard to kill.

An assault squad puts out 27 attacks on the charge. Hits 13.5 times, and does 9 wounds. After saves, it'll be 3 wounds.

A tactical squad puts out 18 attacks on the charge. Does 9 hits, and does 6 wounds. After saves, it'll be 2 wounds.

Hmm...I'm underwhelmed. I think I'll keep my bolter and heavy weapon.

Oshova wrote:Yet another case that boils down to . . . OMG! You charged me, well I lost.

But as we all know this doesn't always work. On Monday, 20 Ork Boyz charge into 5 Deathwing . . . 2 rounds of combat later, the Sgt walks away covered in blood, and the remains of the orks fester on the ground =D That's how we do it in the Dark Angels baby! =D

But yeah, FC on LC is just mean mean mean . . . where can I buy them from? . . . Oh I can give them FNP for 50 points aswell? yes please? =D

Oshova

i would hope the combat went that way. 5 deathwing termies is a minimum of 200pts and 20 orks are 120pts. even with the orks charging, there is still a heck of a points deficit.

Looking at the Furioso, we can rest easy: It can't take lightning claws AND be a Librarian, even with vague "ordering" of upgrades.

If you trade the two blood fists for the talons, then when you upgrade to a Librarian you replace all wargear with bloodfist and force weapon.

If you upgrade to Librarian first, you can't get blood talons because you have to trade both fists for talons - and you don't have them anymore, you have one fist and one force weapon.

scuddman wrote:I'm not really sure about this stuff about assault marines always being better.

If there is an objective in the back, then your assault weapons, furious charge, and extra attacks mean nothing. All the advantages of assault marines are essentially unused. Especially if you're facing a shooty army whose strategy is to try to contest instead of assault.

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to have a tactical squad with a razorback?

Considering that 2 out of 3 missions are objectives, it seems very sensible to take at least 1 tactical squad.

Also, range is not to be underestimated. I understand that yes, razorbacks are the ranged shooting. With the fast rule, the razobacks can move and shoot. But if the razorback dies, you have 12" range. Razorbacks aren't hard to kill.

An assault squad puts out 27 attacks on the charge. Hits 13.5 times, and does 9 wounds. After saves, it'll be 3 wounds.

A tactical squad puts out 18 attacks on the charge. Does 9 hits, and does 6 wounds. After saves, it'll be 2 wounds.

Hmm...I'm underwhelmed. I think I'll keep my bolter and heavy weapon.

There is no difference between a tactical squad in a razorback and an assault squad in a razorback (no one can shoot out).. If thats what you're going to use it honestly doesnt matter because as you said the enemy is moving to "contest".. Again tho, my point is that you need 10 tactical marines to even take the apparently very useful heavy weapon and special weapon... Where do the other 5 go? A shooty army can easily kill 5 marines on an objective so that single long range shot wont mean a lot

On the other hand 6 assault marines can sit inside a -35pt razorback with a weapon such as a melta for killing contesting transports and then assault whats inside after wards where as tactical marines would be hard pressed to kill both the transport AND the people inside. That is a VERY common strategy, IE moving up a transport filled with a scoring unit on the last turns of the game to contest something

In order to hold objectives you need to be able to deal with people who get very close and while yes assault squads arent exactly elite troops.. they do however do that job better than 5 guys with bolters

Im not sold on razorback rush. I think 6 razorbacks with assault squads could be nasty, but 2 or 3 are a joke.

Fast rhinos are going to be the most effective.

Kirasu wrote:
There is no difference between a tactical squad in a razorback and an assault squad in a razorback (no one can shoot out).. If thats what you're going to use it honestly doesnt matter because as you said the enemy is moving to "contest".. Again tho, my point is that you need 10 tactical marines to even take the apparently very useful heavy weapon and special weapon... Where do the other 5 go? A shooty army can easily kill 5 marines on an objective so that single long range shot wont mean a lot

On the other hand 6 assault marines can sit inside a -35pt razorback with a weapon such as a melta for killing contesting transports and then assault whats inside after wards where as tactical marines would be hard pressed to kill both the transport AND the people inside. That is a VERY common strategy, IE moving up a transport filled with a scoring unit on the last turns of the game to contest something

In order to hold objectives you need to be able to deal with people who get very close and while yes assault squads arent exactly elite troops.. they do however do that job better than 5 guys with bolters

I think you're losing the perspective on how Tactical Marines operate inside a balanced force. I would strongly consider taking two full Tac squads in Razorbacks as well as two double flamer/infernus pistol Assault squads in Razorbacks. This gives you a total of 6 scoring units, with 6 long ranged shots to cover your approach up the table. That would be a roughly 1000 point core (estimating 210 for each assault squad and 300 for each tactical squad). Once you round out your armored threats with Furisos and Predators, most opponents will not find alot of firepower to dedicate to the two 5 man lascannons sitting on a home objective and that very modest point investment can pay huge dividends against mechanized lists.

This tactic has worked very well for me in the past with Codex: Space Marines, except with only Tacs and no Assault Marines. Since I have a Master of the Forge, Bolster Defenses generally means the lascannon support squads benefit from 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground), are usually out of range of most enemy weapons, and are thus often not considered worth targeting. I can't recall the last time that one of these squads has actually been killed by enemy fire.

However, Assault Squads in Razorbacks are not going to cost anywhere near 210. From what I hear, they cost more along the lines of 150, and that's with a 35-point weapon upgrade on the Razorback. While this is still more expensive than a 90-point lascannon support squad, the lascannon squad may not be cheap enough to make a difference.

Against any non-marine opponent rapid fire bolters is better then the extra attack, think genestellars or hormagaunts.

Fetterkey wrote:This tactic has worked very well for me in the past with Codex: Space Marines, except with only Tacs and no Assault Marines. Since I have a Master of the Forge, Bolster Defenses generally means the lascannon support squads benefit from 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground), are usually out of range of most enemy weapons, and are thus often not considered worth targeting. I can't recall the last time that one of these squads has actually been killed by enemy fire.

However, Assault Squads in Razorbacks are not going to cost anywhere near 210. From what I hear, they cost more along the lines of 150, and that's with a 35-point weapon upgrade on the Razorback. While this is still more expensive than a 90-point lascannon support squad, the lascannon squad may not be cheap enough to make a difference.

A fully tooled out assault squad that maximizes attacks comes in at 210, give or take 5 points. But thats with an Infernus Pistol in the squad and Infernus Pistol and Powerfist on the Sergeant. You can built an effective squad for much cheaper by going with just a meltagun and only the power first. But yes, that tactic has been awesome for me. I run four full tactical squads and a Thunderfire. It is very rare that I lose even half of my four shooty combat squads.

meh, zerks FTW

I may use the BA codex for my precious salamanders...

can't mix the SC tho

True, but i think the mass amounts of flame and melta capabilities in the blood angels codex more than make up for it

ohh yeah

CKO wrote:Against any non-marine opponent rapid fire bolters is better then the extra attack, think genestellars or hormagaunts.

think genestealer or gaunt with FNP.

G

but remember that the assault marines can fire their pistols plus what ever special weapons they have.

10 man squad with 2 flamers.

8 bolt pistol shots and 2 templates.

4 pistols hit and there are say 10 flamer hits.

2 pistol shots and 5 flamer hits wounds = 7 FNP tests for those gaunts = 3.5 dead gaunts


then they assault. 10 marines with the above weapons will get 29 attacks on the charge, 4 for the sergent, 25 for the rest of the marines (assuming 2 flamers)

they can put more hurt out then a tac squad easily

Well, there is the chance you kill too many and they rob the charge from you.
With tacticals you don't have this oppurtunity cost and can let loose a little more freely.

In addition, the rhino move makes their ranged reach a bit longer than the Assault Marines if the assault marines are looking to charge that round.

Fast scout baal pred with 2 heavy flamers/HB and inferno cannon?? Oh come on
Vindicator moving 12 and shooting?

I dont think the list is OP but it can be cheesebuilded very easily. People will find counters quickly.

BTW red wunz go fasta

I think we won't be any worse off than the SW codex. There are so many new shiny toys that you'll have 6 or 7 different build types come out of this and nobody will have the one army to rule them all.

So we have fast rhino chassis vehicles... so what? They cost 15 points more. If you take assault squads to get them cheaper, then you forfeit the tactical flexibility of the tactical squad's combat tactics. I don't know about other guys, but I do find it occasionally useful to put the heavy weapon half of the squad on a home objective and send the other half out to get some. Not really the same effect if you try to do it with an assault squad.

So we have deepstriking land raiders... so what? Better chance for a mishap, considering the size of a LR. At 250 points, that is something you don't want destroyed due to a single bad scatter.

Stormravens... so what? At AV12, it suffers from the same vulnerability as the Valkyrie. Shoot it with a bunch of S7+ weapons and it will plummet eventually.

Sanguinary Priests... so what? FNP isn't all that useful to marines with their 3+ armor save, unless you are fighting critters that have no AP2 or S8 weapons. Furious Charge is only beneficial if you GET the charge. Honestly I liked SW's counterattack USR better.

Dreads galore... so what? Its not like they can score, and they are rather expensive and slow for what they do. You'll need drop pods or storm ravens to get them stuck in properly, and that will make them even more costly.

Dante, Mephiston, etc...... so what? Most of them cost nearly as much as a Land Raider... and nearly all of them lack Eternal Warrior. (except the one guy whose stats are a tad lackluster for the cost). They'll die to instant death weapons and abilities.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

Therion wrote:

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.

For the same price the SW will bring 15 heavy weapons. Considering FNP doesn't work against missile launcher hits I'm pretty sure the Long Fangs draw the long stick in this one. Additionally I can't really see the 50 point investment being worth it since most ranged weapons the Devastators have to worry about don't allow FNP saves, and the Devastators don't really gain anything from having furious charge. I'd still go with the fast Predators.

Depends who you are fighting.

Long fangs have a big weakness: They don't have any ablative wounds. Every wound they take is either the loss of of a heavy weapon, or their leader who lets them split their fire. Every single failed armor or cover save will cripple the squad.

Long Fangs do take normal armor saves where FNP would help.
Fighting a mech IG list? Guess where the half dozen Chimeras are going to shoot their heavy bolters, multilasers? The squad inside probably has an autocannon. Mech IG can force a large volume of armor saves on long fangs, and long fangs are the juiciest targets for their high strength crap AP weapons.
Fighting Tyranids? They have a ton of firepower that can inflict standard armor saves on marines.
Fighting Orks? Guess where all the lootas are going to shoot their str7 ap4 deffguns.
Fighting Eldar? Good chance a squad of dire avengers will drop out of a wave serpent to blade storm the long fangs.

FNP also really helps if the BA squad is going to carry 4 plasma cannons. They will have 20% less firepower than long fangs, but it's a better balanced unit.


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FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I think we won't be any worse off than the SW codex. There are so many new shiny toys that you'll have 6 or 7 different build types come out of this and nobody will have the one army to rule them all.

So we have fast rhino chassis vehicles... so what? They cost 15 points more. If you take assault squads to get them cheaper, then you forfeit the tactical flexibility of the tactical squad's combat tactics. I don't know about other guys, but I do find it occasionally useful to put the heavy weapon half of the squad on a home objective and send the other half out to get some. Not really the same effect if you try to do it with an assault squad.

So we have deepstriking land raiders... so what? Better chance for a mishap, considering the size of a LR. At 250 points, that is something you don't want destroyed due to a single bad scatter.

Stormravens... so what? At AV12, it suffers from the same vulnerability as the Valkyrie. Shoot it with a bunch of S7+ weapons and it will plummet eventually.

Sanguinary Priests... so what? FNP isn't all that useful to marines with their 3+ armor save, unless you are fighting critters that have no AP2 or S8 weapons. Furious Charge is only beneficial if you GET the charge. Honestly I liked SW's counterattack USR better.

Dreads galore... so what? Its not like they can score, and they are rather expensive and slow for what they do. You'll need drop pods or storm ravens to get them stuck in properly, and that will make them even more costly.

Dante, Mephiston, etc...... so what? Most of them cost nearly as much as a Land Raider... and nearly all of them lack Eternal Warrior. (except the one guy whose stats are a tad lackluster for the cost). They'll die to instant death weapons and abilities.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

Fast Rhinos are pretty expensive, and the cost does balance them.

Deep Striking Land raiders is a bad idea, good luck with the scatter. If they don't die from a mishap it will probably just get slagged by a melta gun.

Stormravens are expensive for AV12.

Dreads can't score, and none are venerable. BA dreads are nasty, but only at close range which makes them vulnerable to meltas.

Lots of armies have nasty special characters.

Sanguinary priests are a good deal for 50 points. If FNP is no big deal why do plague marines cost 23 points? Sanguinary priests are good, but they are not an I win button. They just mean blood angels really need to target units that can ignore FNP, and their opponent needs to make the best possible use of them.

@FoxPhoenix: You raise some good points . . . but for me these codices give a new way to play with the models I have. IDC if Mephiston is as much as a land raider, and librarian dreadnoughts are slow and expensive . . . I want 5 psykers on the table. I want variety. I want I want I want! But yeah, as a competitive codex the higher cost of things is really going to bring the "uber-marines" back down to Earth. Which I'm glad about, because I hate OP things . . . damn those fantasy Daemons =p

Oshova

5 psykers? go against some nids then, maybe eldar?

Eldar can have a maximum of two, I'm afraid... Unless you count Warlocks. Then you can have about twenty.

I wasn't hating on the codex, just for the record. I was simply pointing out that everybody's kneejerk "OMG OMG" reaction is a bit unnecessary.

2 Farssers.
20 Warlock councils.
3 Warlocks in elites (wraithguard).
6 Warlocks in troops (Guardians).
3 Warlocks in hvy support (Support Weapons).
Grand total of 34...though only 2 really matter .

I know other armies do it better. But for a loyalist marine army 5 is pretty awesome. Still thinking about doing a Thousand Sons army with 8 psykers in 2000pts =D

Btw, any ideas on how to make a good Librarian Dreadnought? as there hasn't been anything about a model being released.

I was thinking a furioso base, but don't know about the weapons on it =/

Oshova

Sanctjud wrote:2 Farssers.
20 Warlock councils.
3 Warlocks in elites (wraithguard).
6 Warlocks in troops (Guardians).
3 Warlocks in hvy support (Support Weapons).
Grand total of 34...though only 2 really matter .

and i mentioned Aldar becaus of runes of witnessing. i dont care if your take mephiston and a librarian dred, i got psyker swarm :p


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Oshava look in the P and M blogs somsone is converting a venerable into it, add a psi hood to that ugly model i guess?

The number of "psykers" in an army is completely unimportant.

willydstyle wrote:The number of "psykers" in an army is completely unimportant.

To a power gamer, sure, it is unimportant. To somebody who gives a damn about it for a fluffy reason, it may be important.

IIRC mephiston is T5, no invuln, no EW. So using my 30" Str5 guns I can plug away at his squad, then when it's gone (he has no jump pack so it's long before he enters CC) I just rail gun him, dead. My strategy Vs. BA will be to hole up in a corner teeming with str 5 or higher guns & say "Come get me"

Unless you are rocking it out with Hammer of Witches ...in which case you care about D6 of them


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IIRC he's T6 Shas'O Dorianio!

Shas'O Dorian wrote:IIRC mephiston is T5, no invuln, no EW. So using my 30" Str5 guns I can plug away at his squad, then when it's gone (he has no jump pack so it's long before he enters CC) I just rail gun him, dead. My strategy Vs. BA will be to hole up in a corner teeming with str 5 or higher guns & say "Come get me"

He's T6 and can't join squads, welcome to two weeks ago.

and not only that but technically he does have a jump pack with the wings power. Oh and he has fleet. So he WILL be in combat fast.

If he passes his test, and the opponent doesn't have a psychic hood/rune sword/seer stones/shadow of the warp, yes. But then he can't use his S10 or preferred enemy powers, or fry brains with his sword.

so unlike most other SC libby's he can only cast 1 power a turn?

No he can cast 3 . . . Cos he is pure awesome!!! =D

Oshova

He has no such rule to my recollection, and I just phoned the shop to confirm. His little eyeball power is one he can use without a check or it going against his power limit, but he is otherwise the same as any regular librarian except with three powers instead of two.

I'm pretty sure that he can cast 3 powers a turn and has access to all BA psychic powers . . . but then I've only been reading these posts for the past week and a bit, and only looked through the codex a few times . . .

Oshova

Oshova wrote:I'm pretty sure that he can cast 3 powers a turn and has access to all BA psychic powers . . . but then I've only been reading these posts for the past week and a bit, and only looked through the codex a few times . . .

Oshova

I'm pretty certain that my knowledge gained from hearsay over the internet is more correct than information you got from the book.

Oh sorry =[ I'm very much mistaken . . . he must be worse than other IC psykers then =p

Any other interesting tactics people have so far?

Oshova

yeah, not telling!

Well let's have a discussion about that . . . lol

Oshova

He has 3 set powers and can use 3 powers a turn. Which means that if he's gonna force weapon someone he has to not use one of the other 3. His "gaze" doesn't count against his psychic powers. He's a brute but costs appropriately

He has Wings of Sanguines (Jump Pack), The Sword power(gives str 10), and Unleash Rage(Preferred Enemy). So he actually only has 6 attacks on the charge, because he cant take the might of heros power. The fact that hes not an Independent Character is really strange imo. Im not sure but the Honor Guard says that it can be bought for any HQ choice so does this mean that he can be part of the squad? It just says any HQ doesnt specify in anyway.

Honestly though the only thing im disapointed about is that there is no Land Speeder Storm, I just think there very cool.

3 in one turn? whahhh?

He has Wings of Sanguines (Jump Pack), The Sword power(gives str 10), and Unleash Rage(Preferred Enemy). So he actually only has 6 attacks on the charge, because he cant take the might of heros power. The fact that hes not an Independent Character is really strange imo. Im not sure but the Honor Guard says that it can be bought for any HQ choice so does this mean that he can be part of the squad? It just says any HQ doesnt specify in anyway.

@Paladin, yes an honour guard may be bought for each HQ you take, however, he still can't join them since he isn't an IC. All he does is open the option of purchasing a squad. Similar to honour gaurd and command squads in C:SM. I.E. if you have 2 librarians you can take 2 honor guards but they don't have to join them, as they do not have the retinue rule forcing them to join. That being said you can still just stick him behind or surrounded by a squad to get that early game cover save.

Honor Guard are available to the Captain and Dante. You can't purchase them for Eclusiarchs or Librarians.

Hi guys ! Posted this in BA V.3 rumors thread, but it better fits in here. So, paste.


The BA codex arrived in French GW stores too, and staff being nice, this week I got the opportunity to get a glance over it, so I checked some details, to complete what I read on Dakka².

I already knew about fast moving rhinos and their variants, another thing caught my eye. The Furioso Dreadnought, which is really a furious beast for instance. It comes in Elite, as base equipement he has a pair of blood-lightning claws, Strenght : 6. In pairs, they grant an additionnal attack for each wound dealt with success. And this is true : additionnal attacks allow for another round of attacks in case of success too. Its states clearly so on Furioso page. As long as BA player wins, he rolls again !

Today, I have just activated the command runes of an ancient artifact :
my trusted scientific calculator, equipped with 10 memory buffers, yes please !
Doing some mathammer (skip the paragraph in colour if mathammer is not your cup of tea).
I started from the number of attacks in dread's profile (3), then adding the bonus attack if he charges, the average numbers are here :


Each attack will hit 2 of 3 times against nearly everyone, because of Furioso's WS rising to 6. Rerolls of to wound dice end up in 97% wound rate on toughness of 4 or less, and there is no armor save allowed.
sans charge :
initial round : 1.94 kills
round 2 : 1.26
round 3 : 0.82
round 4 : 0.53
I crunched numbers up to 9 rounds, skipping, it's below 0.5 anyway...

with charge :
initial round : 2.59 kills
round 2 : 1.68
round 3 : 1.09
round 4 : 0.71 .
and so on...

Obviously, these are only stupid statistical averages, a serious probabilist approach is needed to obtain wound numbers distribution. I will do it if I'm motivated enough. For the moment, this gives a good overview of this vehicle power. I summed up the rounds by two methods : additionning all these averages up to the 9nth round, or just keeping the numbers rounded up/down to the nearest integer. The final results are the same, here they are :


An average 5 wounds without charging, and of 7 wounds with charge are inflicted to Dreadnought opponent unit !


Now, let's take the problem in reverse order :
If the Furioso Dreadnought had been designed to deal attacks the ordinary way (one bunch of dice) instead of sequentially, how much attacks on his profile is the equivalent ?
In fact, this corresponds to a profile with Attacks = D6+4 and a special rule granting :
Furioso Dreadnought gains D6 attacks while charging instead of one !


All this goodness with a frontal AV of 13 and a Basilisk cost only !
I feel this is monstruous !!

Mephiston can cast 3 powers per turn. He has 3 powers plus force weapon.

Ravajaxe wrote:Hi guys ! Posted this in BA V.3 rumors thread, but it better fits in here. So, paste.


The BA codex arrived in French GW stores too, and staff being nice, this week I got the opportunity to get a glance over it, so I checked some details, to complete what I read on Dakka².

I already knew about fast moving rhinos and their variants, another thing caught my eye. The Furioso Dreadnought, which is really a furious beast for instance. It comes in Elite, as base equipement he has a pair of blood-lightning claws, Strenght : 6. In pairs, they grant an additionnal attack for each wound dealt with success. And this is true : additionnal attacks allow for another round of attacks in case of success too. Its states clearly so on Furioso page. As long as BA player wins, he rolls again !

Today, I have just activated the command runes of an ancient artifact :
my trusted scientific calculator, equipped with 10 memory buffers, yes please !
Doing some mathammer (skip the paragraph in colour if mathammer is not your cup of tea).
I started from the number of attacks in dread's profile (3), then adding the bonus attack if he charges, the average numbers are here :


Each attack will hit 2 of 3 times against nearly everyone, because of Furioso's WS rising to 6. Rerolls of to wound dice end up in 97% wound rate on toughness of 4 or less, and there is no armor save allowed.
sans charge :
initial round : 1.94 kills
round 2 : 1.26
round 3 : 0.82
round 4 : 0.53
I crunched numbers up to 9 rounds, skipping, it's below 0.5 anyway...

with charge :
initial round : 2.59 kills
round 2 : 1.68
round 3 : 1.09
round 4 : 0.71 .
and so on...

Obviously, these are only stupid statistical averages, a serious probabilist approach is needed to obtain wound numbers distribution. I will do it if I'm motivated enough. For the moment, this gives a good overview of this vehicle power. I summed up the rounds by two methods : additionning all these averages up to the 9nth round, or just keeping the numbers rounded up/down to the nearest integer. The final results are the same, here they are :


An average 5 wounds without charging, and of 7 wounds with charge are inflicted to Dreadnought opponent unit !


Now, let's take the problem in reverse order :
If the Furioso Dreadnought had been designed to deal attacks the ordinary way (one bunch of dice) instead of sequentially, how much attacks on his profile is the equivalent ?
In fact, this corresponds to a profile with Attacks = D6+4 and a special rule granting :
Furioso Dreadnought gains D6 attacks while charging instead of one !


All this goodness with a frontal AV of 13 and a Basilisk cost only !
I feel this is monstruous !!

Did you seriously cut and paste this from the BA rumor thread just to increase your post count? Sad.

You don't get additional rounds of combat, WTF, I don't know what crazy French nonsense that codex has printed, but you gain an additional attack for every unsaved wound, not an entire new stack of attacks "if you win".

I think I will be taking Mephiston just in case I get to go first in Dawn of War.

Plop my one HQ in the middle of the board. Give him a Tac squad in a Rhino to hide behind when you decide to keep everything in reserve, then... Kerplowwy!!

If someone else already said this, then I'm saying it too...

Terminus wrote:You don't get additional rounds of combat, WTF, I don't know what crazy French nonsense that codex has printed, but you gain an additional attack for every unsaved wound, not an entire new stack of attacks "if you win".

The stats are right, even if the explanation is weird. You get one extra attack for every unsaved wound, including wounds dealt by bonus attacks.

Does that mean he could potentially have unlimited attacks? sort of like the Supa-Gattla on a Stompa?

I wonder if the rules won't be that he only gets an extra attack for each one of the original attacks he has. That would make a little more sense, he would only get twice as many attacks at the most, and not be too OP.

The book has no such limitation, so yes, a Blood Talon dreadnought could chew through an entire Space Marine squad before they got to swing. The only thing limiting it is the attack roll, so it's a good thing Furioso Librarians can't take blood talons, because talons + preferred enemy = everyone dead everywhere.

@Terminus

I'm pretty sure that Honor Guard were available if you took any HQ. It wasn't restricted to just captains/dante. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can take them with any HQ.

you can take with any but with saguinator or mephy not being IC's well.... huh?

Scared about BA? Maybe.
I have a large BA army that I played as vanilla army since the pdf-codex came out.
Thank you, Jervis.

Well, the new codex seems not to be jervisified. That's absolutely good news.
However, I'm sceptical about all those new BA lists floating around the internet.
The new hype seems to be small Assault Marine units in Razorbacks.

I'll be converting a Slaaneshi Sanguinor to lead my forces in apocalypse games.


Everything about that guy from stats to abilities screams "Charismatic, Iron-Willed leader of adoring followers that worship him as a god".

3+ invul because he doesn't think the enemy can hurt him? Sure!

WS8 5 attacks S5 T4 W3- that is the exact statline of Sigvald the Magnificent, Slaanesh special character lord in Fantasy. Strong, but not especially tough.

Eternal Warrior - because he's awesome!

2+ armour - Sigvald totes around a 1+ armour save [but a 1 always fails in fantasy] so it's about the same thing!

Angelic wings? Ahh, such beauty, such grace...

Master-crafted power sword? Sigvald carries Sliverslash, a sword made from a sliver of Slaanesh's own blade. It gives extra attacks. Sanguinor gives 1 attack to everyone around him. I see I see!


And he's clad in gold armour - just like Sigvald!

This codex rocks. I think I'm even going to make the Sanguinor based on the Sigvald model if I can

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Did you seriously cut and paste this from the BA rumor thread just to increase your post count? Sad.

Man, you seriously think I'm doing so, for +1 count ?
I haven't followed the forum since a week, posted there and realized that the news topic got some flamewar etc... and is pretty doomed now. Then I spotted this interesting thread, and wanted to join.

Terminus wrote:You don't get additional rounds of combat, WTF, I don't know what crazy French nonsense that codex has printed, but you gain an additional attack for every unsaved wound, not an entire new stack of attacks "if you win".

Don't worry the french codex is perfectly clear about it. I realize that a sentence is ambiguous in my post. And I called these bonus sequences of to-hit / to-wound rolls as "rounds" but of course they are not a full round of combat properly speaking. It's a pseudo-round only with one bonus attack for each success.

Should I edit it ?

Grey Templar wrote:Does that mean he could potentially have unlimited attacks? sort of like the Supa-Gattla on a Stompa?

I wonder if the rules won't be that he only gets an extra attack for each one of the original attacks he has. That would make a little more sense, he would only get twice as many attacks at the most, and not be too OP.

Unlimited number of attacks, yes.
As I said, the codex explicitly states that bonus attacks could grant another bonus dice if they succed to wound, as if they were the "original attacks".

Does the furioso get +1 attacks for having two ccws? So 4 attacks, 5 on the charge?

Went up against my friend yesterday who plays BA using the new dex. He totally stomped my Tau force.

But, then again, BA was always an assaulty army, so it was always tough to win against them with Tau.

It also didn't help that he successfully seized the initiative, and I was rolling like crap.

Nevertheless, new BA are nasty.

Spellbound wrote:I'll be converting a Slaaneshi Sanguinor to lead my forces in apocalypse games.


Everything about that guy from stats to abilities screams "Charismatic, Iron-Willed leader of adoring followers that worship him as a god".

3+ invul because he doesn't think the enemy can hurt him? Sure!

WS8 5 attacks S5 T4 W3- that is the exact statline of Sigvald the Magnificent, Slaanesh special character lord in Fantasy. Strong, but not especially tough.

Eternal Warrior - because he's awesome!

2+ armour - Sigvald totes around a 1+ armour save [but a 1 always fails in fantasy] so it's about the same thing!

Angelic wings? Ahh, such beauty, such grace...

Master-crafted power sword? Sigvald carries Sliverslash, a sword made from a sliver of Slaanesh's own blade. It gives extra attacks. Sanguinor gives 1 attack to everyone around him. I see I see!


And he's clad in gold armour - just like Sigvald!

This codex rocks. I think I'm even going to make the Sanguinor based on the Sigvald model if I can

Games are often won in the movement or shooting phase, not necessarily in the cc phase.
Single cc monsters, like Blood Daemons, are dead meat. Rant over.

Kveldulv wrote:Does the furioso get +1 attacks for having two ccws? So 4 attacks, 5 on the charge?

His attack profile is 2 (3) so four attacks while charging.

Bandwagon Angels unite! Im just glad I used the PDF throughout its entire life cycle. No jumping ships here!

Kveldulv wrote:Does the furioso get +1 attacks for having two ccws? So 4 attacks, 5 on the charge?

No, 2 base attacks, +1 for having two CCWs. The DC dread has 3 base.

For those of you who have had a good look at the codex now, what kinds of things are you looking at playing in a competitive army? I've been doing a bit of brainstorming, and I posted one of my lists somewhere on the forums (I think in someone else's thread i nthe armylist section), but I haven't really landed on something that I'm super excited about yet. The things that stick out as being really good to me are:

-FNP on pretty much anything you want for 50pts per unit (up to 3 times, but the effect can overlap to other units, essentially covering the entire army if you've got your units close together). Sure the priests take up an elites slot and there are 7 other choices, but TH/SS termies seem less exciting when you have to pay extra for the TH/SS on them and it isn't the easiest thing in the world to get Furioso dreads in range to be effective (podding Ironclads often doesn't work as well as we might want it to and podding Furiosos likely won't be much different).

-fast Rhino hulls. Baal Preds especially. The mobility of the army is fantastic. It moves double what most mech lists will move without losing firepower for the turn.

Stormraven. I'm not convinced of this thing yet, and I really go back an forth on it. Sometimes it seems so awesome to me, and other times I feel like it'll be pretty much the largest bullt magnet ever (And one that will die fast at that). Moving 2 units around at once just seems really good. Also charging out of it seems quite good. 200pts for 1 gun and mediocre survivability at best seems not so awesome though. It also competes for spots with the awesome 100pt fast moving dakka predator.

Death Company. Expensive for sure, and non scoring troops seems weak. But having them as troops means they won't contend with other choices in more cluttered areas of the codex. They also seem really good at killing things, and they're fairly resilient with FNP/FC. Bringing a Chaplain with the unit makes them VERY good in CC. A couple of power weapons/fists rerolling hits and wounds with 4 attacks each on the charge sounds like fun to me.

Discounted transports for Assault Squads. They can lose their backpacks to buy any dedicated transport at 35pts off, which means cheaper land raiders/fast Rhinos/Razorbacks. Tossing a Sanguinary Priest with a power weapon into an assault squad with a powerfist and a land raider seems like it creates a pretty hard hitting unit that can still score. Oh and it brings a Land Raider to the table (which seems pretty decent in 5th edition).

Anyone with thoughts on Mephiston? I can't really decide if I like him. He's a monster in combat, but not being an IC makes me sad. His stats justify his lack of the IC rule, but he still has no invulnerable. 5 wounds at T6 with a 2+ save is nothing to scoff at though! I'm undecided if he is worth the mountain of points you pay for him though.

Aside from Mephiston I'm really pretty underwhelmed by the SC choices. I like Tycho for his LD10 across the army effect, but you sure have to pay a lot of points for it. I just really struggle to want to pay all the points that any of the SCs cost.

Sanguinary Guards can't lose thier jump packs for a transport?!?! That made me really sad. They're also overpriced and not very good for double the sadness. When I saw the models I wanted to play an army full of them too lol.

Having seen the new BA codex being played I must say. Those priests are quite the purchase! I saw 20 terminators with FNP annihilate an enemy army in 3 turns. That, and the FNP assault marines. It was a bloodbath.

uhgggg ot looking forward to preists, can they hide in squads?

The priests are ICs

I'm really excited about the idea of 10 assault marines with a fist and meltaguns in a fast rhino. Its fast, not terribly expensive and it is a threat to most unit types.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Volkan wrote:I'm really excited about the idea of 10 assault marines with a fist and meltaguns in a fast rhino. Its fast, not terribly expensive and it is a threat to most unit types.

Cheers,
~Volkan

jumpacks in rhinos?

They trade their jump packs for a discount on dedicated transports.

IronfrontAlex wrote:
jumpacks in rhinos?

Sorry I guess I should have noted that I would be swapping the packs for a transport. I feel the speedy candy shell will serve them better than the rocket packs by still getting them where they want to go while protecting them from small arms fire.

Cheers,
Volkan

but they loose the 18" CC range

its actually 10 ASM with dual meltaguns PF in rhino for 250pts I believe.

yes the oriests are IC and you can take 1-3 as an elite slot. Their ability is a radius... Hide in a Land Raider anyone?

IronfrontAlex wrote:but they loose the 18" CC range

But they gain the awesome sauce rhino.
Even if a delayed charge, that effective range is 15" from a rhino, only 3" discount for immunity to small arms and cover saves/mobile terrain etc.etc.etc.

IronfrontAlex wrote:but they loose the 18" CC range

And they gain a Rhino that counts as a fast vehicle by paying only 15pts for it after their discount for removing the jump packs. That seems pretty good to me. Honestly though it feels like you get the most bang for your buck when you're trading jumppacks off of a 5 man unit for a Razorback. The discount is static at 35 reguardless of how many models are taking their packs off so if you trade only 5 packs for the discount it seems better than trading 10 for the same discount.

Caffran9 wrote:
And they gain a Rhino that counts as a fast vehicle by paying only 15pts for it after their discount for removing the jump packs. That seems pretty good to me. Honestly though it feels like you get the most bang for your buck when you're trading jumppacks off of a 5 man unit for a Razorback. The discount is static at 35 reguardless of how many models are taking their packs off so if you trade only 5 packs for the discount it seems better than trading 10 for the same discount.

I thought about that, but if I am taking them as objective takers the 2nd meltagun gives me redundancy in the unit so a better chance to break open a transport. It also allows me to do drive-bys with those meltaguns adding some flexibility to the squad. Lastly the extra bodies give them some extra staying power. The Razorback however is cheaper and brings a different type of Heavy/special weapon to the unit so either might be decent. I think I'll have to do some testing to make a decision either way.

Cheers
~Volkan

Sarge can get an Infernus Pistol for the second melta weapon if you want to keep the unit small.

I'm not saying the 10 man units are bad or not worth it at all. In fact I'll probably end up playing at least 1 full assault squad.

I haven't seen the rules for the Infernus Pistol yet. I was sorely disappointed with the WH version as it was ap2.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Infernus pistols are 6' Melta guns, with ap 1.

How do BA play?

Infernus pistol is what the WH pistol should have been (AP1), but the WH version's AP was decided before it had any effect on damage rolls.

So does that mean the Infernus Pistol has to be within 3" to get 2D6 pen?

Yessir.

too close IMHO

Hmmm, 16 pages.

So I guess being scared of the new Blood Angels is a popular 40k tactic

I would like to think we've steered the thread in a different direction since the initial histrionics by the scrubs of the Dakka forum.

This is the tactics forum, so what tactics are BA players planning? I am a big fan of the new codex (been drooling over it every chance I get at at FLGS). So much better than PDF version, just a shame that Moriar didn't make it back!
My plan for a 1750 all comers is 3 Baal Preds, 1 LC pred and 1 Vindy. 15 DC with chaplain in LRC. 1 Tactical in rhino. 2 Dreds in pods and 10 sternguard in pod with combi meltas. Cheapo HQ with whatever points might be left (I just wish I had the codex already!) All this talk of termies with LC, TH, and SS with FNP is giving me acronym pain but if I could squeeze them in I would. Been doing a LOT of blood red paint, (some might say too much) but now I just want to scratch build a Storm raven..hmm, if I came up with a self build kit on our company laser cutter I could have three...
Mwhahhaaahaa...
Sorry, feel better now its out of my system : )

Only one scoring unit? Good luck with that...

OK so if points allow I get some 5 man assault squads or even scout squads to sit on objectives.

Definitely going for assault squads in Razorbacks. Nice and cheap, fast heavy weapons. =]

Oshova

Lots of fast tanks for sure. Lots of Dreds too as they seem to be flavour of the codex. Is "wings of Sanguinious" a good option for Libby Dreds instead of puting them in pods? Taking drop pods means they can choose 2 other psychic powers instead, to be extra killy, and benefit from the pods inertial guidance and weapons.

I'm going with flying Librarian Dreads =D should be good fun =p

Oshova

I'm liking the fast Razorbacks a lot. I'm looking at running small Assault Squads with Priests in them but I'm a bit worried about their lack of diversity. They really aren't good at all when they're not up close engaging the enemy and that tends to be a quality that is not desirable for the objective holding units. I'll be testing this list at 1750 in the coming week:

Reclusiarch

3x Sanguinary Priest: 3x Power Weapon

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Moves quick and retains the ability to shoot, and then packs a solid punch up close. the idea is that since all of my infantry have FNP they're going to be fairly tough to bring down when they get out of their tanks. On the way in the Land Raider and Predators front the advance and present their AV13/14 fronts and give at least cover saves to the softer Razorbacks. I get solid firepower on the way in with the Lascannons and Predators. I'm unsure of the proper weapons loadout on the Razorbacks right now. I went with Las/Plas because I'm worried about Tyranid MCs and that feels like the most effective oladout for dealing with them. TL Lascannons seem better against just about everything else though. I don't like paying so many points for an AV11 vehicle but the 35pt discount for the Assault Marines makes it a bit more bearable.

Alternatively it can trade the Land Raider for a Razorback for the Death Company and then trade the Reclusiarch for Mephiston. The Land Raider just feels like it'll make more a difference than Mephiston in a list setup like this since its like a mobile LoS blocking piece of terrain for my other tanks to hide around.

But then they only get one more power to play with that way. Quickening and might of heroes anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinary priests are definitely a bargain @ 50 pts, and razorbacks have the bonus of carrying scoring units. Lots of lists I've seen going down that road.
Did I read it right that Sanguinary guard are troops?

how do you guys think necrons will hold up in a game with the BA?? Because Gauss weaponry rules can effectively punch a hole in the Bloodthirsty Dreadnoughts... i might be wrong but if anyone can shed some light on my subject it would be really appreciated... Plus IMO a unit of necron warriors with a Tomb Spyder following it would really screw some of the BA units over, since ive noticed the new BA excel in CC. Plus, on the other hand theres the Monoliths power matrix rule, making sure that they make a clean get away... i need a little help here

Necrons have little that can deal with FNP, and DC dreads are fleet and immune to shaken and stunned results. Your warriors will get assaulted and swept, and you'll be phased out quickly.

Yeah, Blood Angels are totally brutal against Necrons.

eep! so im 100% doomed?!?!

StasisNid95 wrote:eep!

You just have to wait for your turn.

General Mayhem wrote:But then they only get one more power to play with that way. Quickening and might of heroes anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinary priests are definitely a bargain @ 50 pts, and razorbacks have the bonus of carrying scoring units. Lots of lists I've seen going down that road.
Did I read it right that Sanguinary guard are troops?

Sanguinary Guard are Elites. If you take Commander Dante then they count as troops.

Caffran9 wrote:I'm liking the fast Razorbacks a lot. I'm looking at running small Assault Squads with Priests in them but I'm a bit worried about their lack of diversity. They really aren't good at all when they're not up close engaging the enemy and that tends to be a quality that is not desirable for the objective holding units. I'll be testing this list at 1750 in the coming week:

Reclusiarch

3x Sanguinary Priest: 3x Power Weapon

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Moves quick and retains the ability to shoot, and then packs a solid punch up close. the idea is that since all of my infantry have FNP they're going to be fairly tough to bring down when they get out of their tanks. On the way in the Land Raider and Predators front the advance and present their AV13/14 fronts and give at least cover saves to the softer Razorbacks. I get solid firepower on the way in with the Lascannons and Predators. I'm unsure of the proper weapons loadout on the Razorbacks right now. I went with Las/Plas because I'm worried about Tyranid MCs and that feels like the most effective oladout for dealing with them. TL Lascannons seem better against just about everything else though. I don't like paying so many points for an AV11 vehicle but the 35pt discount for the Assault Marines makes it a bit more bearable.

Alternatively it can trade the Land Raider for a Razorback for the Death Company and then trade the Reclusiarch for Mephiston. The Land Raider just feels like it'll make more a difference than Mephiston in a list setup like this since its like a mobile LoS blocking piece of terrain for my other tanks to hide around.

Again, an IG army would love facing something like this across the table, as would any mobile close combat army for that matter. Minimum-sized squads and AV11 gun platforms? FNP with the W1 priests completely exposed due to the small squad size? Lulz. Just lulz.`

Are you assuming that I'll just string my models across the table and play in the most unintelligent manner possible? The IG will be shooting through a wall of AV 13 and 14 to get to the Razorbacks who will have at minimum a 4+ cover save from the Preds/Land Raider. It isn't quite so simple to rampage through with an IG army as you might think, especially since my longer range weapons are more maneuverable and survivable than their Chimeras, as well as better against AV 11/12 than their long range weapons (except the Vendettas, they can be trouble).

That said, I don't think my matchup with mech IG is a good one, and I'm fully aware of that.

More CC oriented armies have to catch up to me first, and my tanks movre faster than theirs while maintaining firepower. The army does very well against light armor with Autocannons/Assault Cannons/Las-plas.

I'd also like to point out that I've mentioned several times in various threads on these forums (I guess not this thread specifically yet so here goes) that I'm not convinced of small assault squads really being the best call for the troops slots in a BA army. They are a very one dimensional unit and as a result they lack the flexibility to be effective objective holders like a Tactical Squad.

I'm sorry if I've painted a picture that suggests the list I posted is end all-be all in nature because I'm 110% aware that it is NOT. It simply utilizes a bunch of the new and different-ish stuff that BA get access to. because of this, I like to show it as an army from the new codex. I highly doubt it is optimized or extremely competitive, but that is why playtesting and an open mind are both very important things.

I can see Dark Eldar being a good counter to Blood Angels. They can move at the same speed, but in a more horde-like fashion. With more heavy weapons that count your AV as 12. Loads of Plasma Cannons. Ok so you can shoot down my AV10/11 vehicles, but there's so many that they're going to get you.

I'm finding it hard to find easy ways to play against BA with other armies. Fast CC with more men is always a good way to counter fast CC with MEQ =p

Oshova

Since the Assault Troops jump pack downgrade specifies any dedicated transport, I'm rather chuckling at 225 point Land Raider Crusaders with multimeltas.

You can just about fit 3 scoring 5 man assault squads in 3 Crusaders, 3 Vindicators, 3 Baal Preds and Mephiston into 2000.

I would love to see your opponent's face when you put those 10 models out for deployment =p

Tears for the tear God!

Oshova

Caffran9 wrote:

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

ВС can not take LR.



On page 90, there are no Land Raiders =)

Darog wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

ВС can not take LR.



On page 90, there are no Land Raiders =)

Sorry, but they can - it states they can take any Dedicated Transport, which Land Raiders are. It then, randomly and for no reason whatsoever, tells you to look at p.90, which is where the non-LR DTs are, by a happy coincidence :p

Aelyn wrote:

Darog wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

ВС can not take LR.



On page 90, there are no Land Raiders =)

Sorry, but they can - it states they can take any Dedicated Transport, which Land Raiders are. It then, randomly and for no reason whatsoever, tells you to look at p.90, which is where the non-LR DTs are, by a happy coincidence :p

Any transportation from page 90, but not in general any transport. Why then had to indicate page numbers? In addition, the reference is always clearly indicated on the specific page only.

I'm scared of three vindies moving 12" a turn and dropping pie plates. I'm scared of all the predators that can move 12" and still shoot. This will be nasty.

This is my desperate attempt to get a Dante/Sanguinary Guard Army to work:

-HQ-

Dante = 225

Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Blood Lance, Preferred Enemy Power = 125

-Elite-

Chaplain w/ Powerfist = 125

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack. Infurnus Pistol, Power Weapon = 100
Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon = 65

-Troops-

5-man Sanguinary Guard w/ Chapter Banner, Powerfist = 240

10-Man Assault Squad w/o Jump Packs w/ 2 Meltaguns, Sergent w/ Hand Flamer, Power Weapon in Land Raider Crusader w/ MM, EA = 475

5-Man Assault Squad w/o Jump Packs w/ Meltagun, Sergent w/ Power Weapon in Razorback w/ Twin-linked Multi-Melta = 180

5-Man Assault Squad w/o Jump Packs w/ Meltagun, Sergent w/ Power Weapon in Razorback w/ Twin-linked Multi-Melta = 180

-Fast Attack-

Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamers = 140

Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamers = 140



Dante joins the Sanguinary Guard as does the Sanguinary Priest and Librarian. It's pricey, but you have an 8 strong unit with plenty of FNP love to pass around. Against Gaurd, you can precision strike two Infurnus Pistols and a Blood Lance. Against Ork Nobs you can take out the Battlewagons with the MM Razorbacks and Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style. The unit should be able to out charge everything in the Space Wolf Codex save Logan, which you already reduced with Dante's Death Mask. Remember the Chapter Banner gives everyone in that squad +1 attack. So on the charge you are talking about 16 Master Crafted Power Weapon attacks, 4 Powerfist attacks, 5 Force Weapon attacks, 5 regular power weapon attacks and Dante's attacks plus 1, all with Furious Charge. The Librarian can give that whole unit Preferred Enemy too in a pinch.

Is all that worth close to 700 points? Probably not. But it is the only way I can think to do it.

I tried the following 2 2dante and sanguinary guard armies out over the weekend

Dante

2 sanguinary priests with jump packs

sanguinary guard with 5 infernus pistols and a power fist

4 squads of sanguinary with 2 infernus pistols and a power fist

2 storm ravens

second list I dropped the storm ravens for 3 5 man missile dev squads and a third sanguinary priest.


His army looked lik such

3 rune priests, jaws/hurricane, jaws/lightning, lightning/hurricane

4 8 man grey hunter squads with 1 melta, mark of the wulfen, each had a wolf guard with fist/combi melta attached
4 rhinos

5 wolf cav with 1 wolf claw, 2 hammers, 2 storm shields

3 squads of 6 long fangs with 5 rocket launchers in each.

Needless to say I got smashed fairly hard.

I think the list idea could be a shock to certain builds, but none of the big power lists.

I think a drop pod librarian could be very useful with blood lance + BA storm caller (i forget the name).. You drop down with say 3 dreadnoughts (take 2 empty pods somewhere) then blood lance on your turn.. Use BA Storm caller on THEIR turn and all your guys get a 5+ cover save which is usually the bane of drop pod armies

Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Darog wrote:Any transportation from page 90, but not in general any transport. Why then had to indicate page numbers? In addition, the reference is always clearly indicated on the specific page only.

What does it say for regular squads, p.90 or p.90-91? If the former, they a simply indicating what page the dedicated transports start on.

They are only I3 so a 50% chance. its still an effective way of taking out the PK.

Kveldulv wrote:

Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Against Jaws of the World wolf, yes they would have an opportunity to dodge at their base initiative.

Blood Lance is different, having read the wording, it's almost the exact same as Jaws, except instead of a model taking an initiative test, the model takes a strength 8 AP 1 Lance hit. The other difference is that the range is random, 4D6 versus Jaws straight 24".

What I meant by "Jaws of the World Wolf Style" is that you can snipe powerclaws with the ability because it is another power that specifically says models, like Jaws. So the potential is that if you are able to pop the battle wagon and they disembark, you position the Librarian wherever they can hit the greatest amount of powerclaws, and blood lance away. They will still get a cover save and/or invulnerable save, and you still have to roll decent on distance, but it isn't asking too much to take one or two powerclaws out of that unit, especially if he is on a jump pack and can position accordingly. The ork player can still position his models to where it will be hard for you, but even taking out one limits the amount of attacks coming back at you that ignore FNP.

I predict Blood Lance to be a power mandatory for every BA build. For myself, I am going to put it on a Librarian Dreadnought in a Drop Pod, specifically to break up Chimera wall armies.

Sanguinary Gaurd I think are a unit that can work, but will be extremely difficult to get too work. I think there is potential there at their base point cost compared to other units like Lightning Claw Terminators and Honor Guard. In the case of Assault Terminators, you swap out an invulnerable save for jump packs, and an attack for master crafted and shooting potential.

For 200 Points you get either:

5 Sanguinary Guard
Honor Guard on Foot with a decent amount of upgrades
5 Honor Guard w/ Jump Packs and minimal upgrades
5 Assault Terminators w/ Lightning Claws
10 Death Company w/ nothing, or less death company with upgrades
Small Unit of Vanguard

Those are essentially your "cheap" assault units. They all have a measure of additional buy in to take characters or units to buff them. Most of them you need to put a little extra into to buff them up. They all have some sort of transport option either in the Storm Raven and or Land Raider.

Terminus wrote:

Darog wrote:Any transportation from page 90, but not in general any transport. Why then had to indicate page numbers? In addition, the reference is always clearly indicated on the specific page only.

What does it say for regular squads, p.90 or p.90-91? If the former, they a simply indicating what page the dedicated transports start on.

on all entries it says see page 90


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:

Kveldulv wrote:

Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Against Jaws of the World wolf, yes they would have an opportunity to dodge at their base initiative.

Blood Lance is different, having read the wording, it's almost the exact same as Jaws, except instead of a model taking an initiative test, the model takes a strength 8 AP 1 Lance hit. The other difference is that the range is random, 4D6 versus Jaws straight 24".

What I meant by "Jaws of the World Wolf Style" is that you can snipe powerclaws with the ability because it is another power that specifically says models, like Jaws. So the potential is that if you are able to pop the battle wagon and they disembark, you position the Librarian wherever they can hit the greatest amount of powerclaws, and blood lance away. They will still get a cover save and/or invulnerable save, and you still have to roll decent on distance, but it isn't asking too much to take one or two powerclaws out of that unit, especially if he is on a jump pack and can position accordingly. The ork player can still position his models to where it will be hard for you, but even taking out one limits the amount of attacks coming back at you that ignore FNP.

I predict Blood Lance to be a power mandatory for every BA build. For myself, I am going to put it on a Librarian Dreadnought in a Drop Pod, specifically to break up Chimera wall armies.

actually blood lance says any unit takes a single hit, not per model, so it doesnt work like jaws in that regard. An interesting thing about it though is that you can fire it through combat to hit things behind a melee if you wanted and it ignores the units fighting in cc.

Yeah the wording is funny.. It goes over them, its a very FAIR MINDED blood lance!

I'm actually interested in playing around with vanguard. When you factor in the sarge's power sword they cost the same as a normal assault squad for the basic 5 and the rest of them pay a 2 point premium for an extra attack, heroic intervention, and the ability to purchase upgrades. Descent of angels is just the icing on the cake to make them IMO a pretty viable unit.

A SP in a rhino or razorback racing up could probably throw them in the FC/FNP bubble when they come down as well.

I think you missed the part about vanguard that makes them have to pay for jump packs

They pay much more than 2 pts per model for those abilities.. more like 12. They are the same cost as SM book except they get Descent of angels and can take hand flamers/infernus pistols

Kirasu wrote:I think you missed the part about vanguard that makes them have to pay for jump packs

They pay much more than 2 pts per model for those abilities.. more like 12. They are the same cost as SM book except they get Descent of angels and can take hand flamers/infernus pistols

ah yes, you hit the nail on the head. I totally missed that with the entry staring me in the face. Oh well there goes that idea

They are actually 10 points in total cheaper than the SM book, but thats not enough to warrant them IMO

Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

Dogstar34 wrote:Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

and who needs a deff rolla when you can ram 18" with it for a nice str10 hit lol

Because a deff rolla can ram 1" for a nice d6 str 10 hits?

willydstyle wrote:Because a deff rolla can ram 1" for a nice d6 str 10 hits?

and apparently my joke rolled a 1 to penetrate

Anyhoot whats people's take on the stormraven? It's somethign I really want to work but I just dont see it being able to, especially against armies like guard that pack autocannons and the like out the rear end. On the flipside it having POTMS it can scoot up 24" and drop a twin linked multi melta/lascannon/plasma cannon/assault cannon into something which is nice.

Dogstar34 wrote:Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

I agree. The sponsons are way too expensive to start handing out left and right (except for the dakka Pred which adds up to a measly 100 points). The lascannon predator is also way overpriced, considering you can get a fast Vindicator for 35 points less. So far the scariest Baal predator I've faced is the outflanking one, moving 12" and spraying stuff with a flamestorm cannon. That thing annihilates my infantry squads, heavy weapon teams, and can easily crack a chimera to boot.

As far as the Stormraven goes (although I don't intend to play Blood Angels, Grey Knights supposedly will also get it), I would gladly give up the anti-melta armor for a 25-30 point discount on the skimmer. You don't really need the extra die to crack AV12.

I think the fast 135 point autocannon/las sponson pred has its merits too

of course it does

Caffran9 wrote:I'm liking the fast Razorbacks a lot. I'm looking at running small Assault Squads with Priests in them but I'm a bit worried about their lack of diversity. They really aren't good at all when they're not up close engaging the enemy and that tends to be a quality that is not desirable for the objective holding units. I'll be testing this list at 1750 in the coming week:

Reclusiarch

3x Sanguinary Priest: 3x Power Weapon

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Moves quick and retains the ability to shoot, and then packs a solid punch up close. the idea is that since all of my infantry have FNP they're going to be fairly tough to bring down when they get out of their tanks. On the way in the Land Raider and Predators front the advance and present their AV13/14 fronts and give at least cover saves to the softer Razorbacks. I get solid firepower on the way in with the Lascannons and Predators. I'm unsure of the proper weapons loadout on the Razorbacks right now. I went with Las/Plas because I'm worried about Tyranid MCs and that feels like the most effective oladout for dealing with them. TL Lascannons seem better against just about everything else though. I don't like paying so many points for an AV11 vehicle but the 35pt discount for the Assault Marines makes it a bit more bearable.

Alternatively it can trade the Land Raider for a Razorback for the Death Company and then trade the Reclusiarch for Mephiston. The Land Raider just feels like it'll make more a difference than Mephiston in a list setup like this since its like a mobile LoS blocking piece of terrain for my other tanks to hide around.

I see 1 thing when looking at that list.
3 scoring units with a grand total of 15 models that can score in an objective based game.
Even though they are troops choice Death Company do not count as a scoring unit.
As a chaos player I can tell you 1st hand that 15 toughness 5 feel no pain plague marines is not enough scoring units, let along 15 toughness 4 feel no pain assault squad blood angels.

And thats where most of the current interwebz list completely fail.

The belief that somehow they can keep 15-25 peeps alive with just a few preds, aka the tank wall. As if AV 13 somehow magically stops the enemy from outflanking, deep striking or outright destroying the tanks, and then the BA player has to go for total destruction of the enemy.

Eh, the "interwebz" lists give me far more pause than the gazillion Tactical marines crap lists that people think up "on their own".

I agree that 3 scoring 5 man squads is pretty vulnerable. But BA can do the following easily:

Mephiston

6x5 Assault Marines in Fast Las/Plas Razorbacks

3 Fast Vindicators

3 Fast Baal Preds

Can outflanking shooters like Vendettas give this army pause? Yes, absolutely, but by turn 2 you'll have a dozen vehicles in your line and Mephiston wiping out whatever heavy infantry you might have.

Against more Rock lists, it simply needs to sit at 24+ inches firing away.

I could have sworn it said models, I will check it again.

Here is the current Blood Angels list I am playing around with, points costs are estimates:


-HQ-

Reclusiarch = 130

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Preferred enemy = 100

-Elites-

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought w/ Blood Lance, Might of Heroes in Drop Pod = 210

Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon = 65

-Troops-

8 Death Company w/ Thunderhammer, 2 Power Weapons = 220

Death Company Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons = 125

10-man Assault Squad w/o Jump Packs w/ 2 Meltaguns, Sergent w/ Power Weapon = 220
Mounted in Land Raider Crusader w/ MM, EA = 240

5-man Assault Squad w/ Meltagun in Razorback w/ Las/Plas = 165

5-man Assault Squad w/ Meltagun in Razorback w/ Las/Plas = 165

-Fast Attack-

Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamers = 140

-Heavy Support-

Storm Raven w/ Twin-linked Lascannons, Twin-linked Multimeltas, Extra Armor = 215

@sourclams

Well that one looks different, it has 30 guys not 15. Now i dont know how many points that is. So no im not going to formulate some OPFOR.

@Mahu

Again no idea on exact point costs for the full army, im going to speculate its a 2k list. But again 20 guys that can score? Take those out and youre left without a way to win beyond tabling.

Yes you can go for the tie, but when youre enemy realizes thats all your going to be able to do, he can adjust accordingly.

Again no idea on exact point costs for the full army, im going to speculate its a 2k list. But again 20 guys that can score? Take those out and youre left without a way to win beyond tabling.

Yes you can go for the tie, but when youre enemy realizes thats all your going to be able to do, he can adjust accordingly.

Yes, it is 2000 points.

As a Marine player who regularly places in tournaments with 20 tactical marines, I think you miss the point of the argument against the Razorback spam list.

Mahu wrote:I could have sworn it said models, I will check it again.

nope it says each unit in the line takes a single str 8 ap1 hit. I'm looking at the entry right now. There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Khornatedemon wrote:There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Then why mention it...stroking the good ol' ego...

Sanctjud wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Then why mention it...stroking the good ol' ego...

more like so someone can find it themselfs, but whatever it's not that difficult to do a search.

The .pdf floating around is a fake.

Anyway, it just occurred to me that the Furioso librarian can't gain an extra attack for an additional CCW since he has two special weapons.

Terminus wrote:The .pdf floating around is a fake.

Anyway, it just occurred to me that the Furioso librarian can't gain an extra attack for an additional CCW since he has two special weapons.

no, not the old fake codex. There is a full scan of the actual codex up.

It actually states that the Furioso libby still gets the extra attack in the blood fist entry in the wargear section. It says you have to choose which to use but you still get the attack bonus

I'm not poking at your having the codex because I want it. I'm poking at it because you are advertising something that seems like it will have issues with IP.

/shrug, but I know nothing, so I'll end with:
____________________

What do you think are the balancers in the codex.

If we look at the space wolves there seemed to be alot of doom and gloom.
But as we see, the Grey Hunters are decent, but have issues dealing with Leadership and if you wanted a sort of vet in the squad you had to give up that second special weapon.

What of the blood angels?...maybe starved of a particular FOC slot like every new codex coming out?

Found it, huh, those pesky russians and their scanners.

Anyway, I think the balancers are cost. The fast vehicles pay a reasonable surplus for the ability, the Sanguinary Priests are no tougher to kill than a single marine and cost 50 points (although I foresee some issues if people just stick them in a vehicle for the aura, and never leave). As far as FOC glut, their elite section is simply overwhelmed with great choices. As it stands, they start with only two slots since Priests are pretty much compulsory, otherwise there's no point to playing BA.

why? even w.o sanguinary preists the other elites can make quick work of enemies. regardless of FNP

yeah, but if you could get FNP for the army for 50 points you would so do it every time.

If you need 3 elites you can use honor guard for a sanguinary priest

Couple questions, has anyone considered a bike mounted Priest, with a squad of Bikers? You would then have uber fast plague marines basically, that would have furious charge. Sounds good to me, but I am truly very inexperienced. Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of a list looking something like this?

Hq
- Librarian, Blood Lance (I think it is called that)

Elites
-1 foot mounted, 1 biker priest, 1 Jump pack priest (can you mix like that in one squad of them?)
- 5-10 Sanguinary guard
-5 lightning claw termies

Troops
-10 Tacticals, AOBR
-10 Tacticals, AOBR
-10 Assault marines

Fast Attack
-4 Bikers, taking advice on what to equip them with.

Heavy Support
-Dreadnaught
-Dreadnaught



My basic strategy would be the following, put jump priest with assault squad, have sanguinary guard within range of aura. Have the biker priest run with the bikers, assault/or just shoot, run into tough units to kill or tie up.
Tacticals go around remaining priest, Giving them FNP, leave a squad behind at an objective close to me, run the FNPers to a more fighty objective. Librarian tags along with one of the squads, depending on how he is equiped.

I realize this is probably crap, what would you consider throwing out? I don't really want to go mech, and I want to keep the AOBR models. I have two AOBR sets, and 5 bikes with bikers (one will be used for the priest). I will be filling in where needed, but will probably only have $80 dollars to spend.

This would be 51-56 models, is that enough?

Does this look like a 1.5k points list to you? Too much, or not even close to enough?

A dread with wings HAHAHAHA

Yes... they gave him a red bull. Get it? Ugh. I know. I stink.

Actually, my FLGS had a copy to peruse on 40k night. Apparently, there is a rule you all missed:

It is called the Angel Dust rule -- All Blood Angel models will collect dust as the entire cast of players in our FLGS will be conveniently "busy" whenever the two Blood Angels players are around.

That's simply New Codex syndrome. BA is all around solid, but even if you take nothing but Mephiston and fast Predator/Vindicators, and UBBBERLY efficient razorback troops, the codex is still not crazy over the top. It's solid, it looks fun, and it's competitive. It's not broken.

I dunno, sourclams. Flying Land Raiders aren't a pleasant thought.

sourclams wrote:That's simply New Codex syndrome. BA is all around solid, but even if you take nothing but Mephiston and fast Predator/Vindicators, and UBBBERLY efficient razorback troops, the codex is still not crazy over the top. It's solid, it looks fun, and it's competitive. It's not broken.

I agree completely. I like the book because it is solid and powerful, but it doesn't break the game or go over the top. I think we will see strong armies coming from it, but nothing that will really dominate the game. I've really felt like this for the past few codexes now, which is something I haven't really done before in relation to GW games.

hmm with a sang priest you can almost make a mini biker command squad, albeit with less power weapons and no storm shields but with FNP attack bikes absorbing wounds. Too bad they cant get bikes as troops. Might be a fun squad to mess around with. Nice call sons of lorgar

Thanks. I used to play chaos, and always wanted a love child of Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines, thatt still had the speed. This seems to be that love child. Too bad it takes the spot of a Baal Pred.

sons of lorgar wrote:Thanks. I used to play chaos, and always wanted a love child of Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines, thatt still had the speed. This seems to be that love child. Too bad it takes the spot of a Baal Pred.

Death Company with jump packs, or in a fast rhino? Sure, they can't score, but they don't require an IC to give them the bonuses, and they're very points-efficient for what you get.

Deepstriking LR's? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Deepstriking LR's? Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Don't get their cargo into combat until at *least* turn 3 (with good reserves rolls) and that's assuming you don't mishap that huge thing...

Deepstriking LR's...what's the big frakking deal?
Lols? Yes.
Game-wise, who cares?, seems more like a useless rule to me...the LR's role makes DS a wasted special rule.

DS raiders are asking to get meltad into oblivion.

Against Many Armies the deep striking Land raider is a 250 point free kill that can't do its job properly. It drops in where there is room for it to land (and with how big it is might still mishap,) can't move further, shoots a single weapon (if it didn't pop smoke) and then it is probably shot with a score of meltaguns.
The troops inside can disembark to fire but can't assault so they either become more targets or just sit inside their ride.
Maybe in planet strike it could be useful?

Cheers,
~Volkan

It wouldnt be useful in planet strike. Only units that have deep strike in their unit entry can assault the turn they land. And a raider cannot charge anything.

Ah so even then its less useful. I can't find a use for it myself.

Cheers,
~Volkan

The entire purpose of deep striking land raiders is to make people who barely understand 40k FLIP OUT and cry cheese

Well in that case ill just be quiet and let it be a secret

The secret is ROFLCOPTER actually wait...that's the Stormraven...
DSing LR's is like gaking a brick into a fan?

Kirasu wrote:The entire purpose of deep striking land raiders is to make people who barely understand 40k FLIP OUT and cry cheese

No the entire purpose was to give the illusion that the BA are somehow different than other SM chapters and have some nifty extra (rub hands evily) ability. No matter how stupid or ill conceived that ability is.

The more I read about the codex the more pissed off I get with it and it has nothing to do with its "power level". It like any and all restrictions have been tossed out, thus the book as a whole has no real identity of its own.

Especially since if you leave out all of the new units, you can nearly duplicate any army from the SM codex that doesn't rely on a special character.

A normal LR will charge you on turn 2-3 if not stopped.

A deep striking LR will charge you on turn 3-4 if not stopped.


Why are people still up in arms about this?

WOW this thread is long. Too long to read from the beginning at this point.

My Beef: FNP on everything with Sang. Priests. = ridiculous

The very thing which makes Plagues the most resilient troop choice in the game was just given to an entire army AND that plague marines was just combined with a Berzerker.... riiiggghhhttt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
side note: from a fluff stand point locator beacons should not help guide the deep striking LRs because those LRs are supposedly dropped by thunderhawks and as such should not benefit from such technology.

Youll see more locator beacons perhaps in BA since normal scouts can take them.. unlike codex SM which can only take teleport homers

Deuce11:

Plague Marines have +1T, Feel No Pain, and Defensive Grenades. Adding Feel No Pain conferred by a Sanguinary Priest will no more make Blood Angels equivalent to Plague Marines than an Icon of Nurgle will make Chaos Space Marines equivalent to Plague Marines. Plague Marines are resilient because of a combination of things, not just Feel No Pain.

Likewise Berzerkers have more than just Furious Charge and Fearless. They also have +1WS and +1A, and they always have these things, rather than having a 1/6 chance of having them instead of And They Shall Know No Fear. If you're going to compare them to another unit that gains rules on a roll of 1D6 after deployment but prior to the first turn, then consider that Possessed also have a 1/6 chance of Furious Charge and Fearless...

Naturally the Thunderhawk Transporters deploying Land Raiders in low altitude drops should benefit from Locator Beacons since the beacons help regular Thunderhawks deploy Assault Marines and so on. If you were talking about Teleport Homers than you might have a leg to stand on.

Nurglitch wrote:Deuce11:

Plague Marines have +1T, Feel No Pain, and Defensive Grenades. Adding Feel No Pain conferred by a Sanguinary Priest will no more make Blood Angels equivalent to Plague Marines than an Icon of Nurgle will make Chaos Space Marines equivalent to Plague Marines. Plague Marines are resilient because of a combination of things, not just Feel No Pain.

Likewise Berzerkers have more than just Furious Charge and Fearless. They also have +1WS and +1A, and they always have these things, rather than having a 1/6 chance of having them instead of And They Shall Know No Fear. If you're going to compare them to another unit that gains rules on a roll of 1D6 after deployment but prior to the first turn, then consider that Possessed also have a 1/6 chance of Furious Charge and Fearless...

Naturally the Thunderhawk Transporters deploying Land Raiders in low altitude drops should benefit from Locator Beacons since the beacons help regular Thunderhawks deploy Assault Marines and so on. If you were talking about Teleport Homers than you might have a leg to stand on.

Fair enough, Nurglitch. Titles aside, BAs are getting the best USRs from both of the aforesaid unit choices at cheap cost. That is my beef and I will stick to it until I start playing the new dex and I can see for myself if it is OTT or not.

Regarding the DS LRs. My crutch is that the tank is falling from the sky, without any wings, without propulsion mechanisms, possibly a mere parachute, all during the heat of battle. I don't care if the T. Hawk has a glowing bullseye at which to drop the 10 ton ceramite brick at, the LR should not avoid deviating completely. At the very most, the Beacon should provide a 1D6 scatter instead of 2D6. No scatter is purely nonsensical.

Nurglitch wrote:Deuce11:

Plague Marines have +1T, Feel No Pain, and Defensive Grenades. Adding Feel No Pain conferred by a Sanguinary Priest will no more make Blood Angels equivalent to Plague Marines than an Icon of Nurgle will make Chaos Space Marines equivalent to Plague Marines. Plague Marines are resilient because of a combination of things, not just Feel No Pain.

Likewise Berzerkers have more than just Furious Charge and Fearless. They also have +1WS and +1A, and they always have these things, rather than having a 1/6 chance of having them instead of And They Shall Know No Fear. If you're going to compare them to another unit that gains rules on a roll of 1D6 after deployment but prior to the first turn, then consider that Possessed also have a 1/6 chance of Furious Charge and Fearless...

Well, they get Furious Charge as easily as FNP, since the Sanguinary priests grant that without having to roll for Red Thirst. That said, there's no real reason to freak out about them. They are 50 points with no wargear and have 1 wound each, so they are easily enough to deal with.

Terminus wrote:That said, there's no real reason to freak out about them. They are 50 points with no wargear and have 1 wound each, so they are easily enough to deal with.

Might be time to convert up one of those sgt Telion models for my marines then... or even a vindicare. Else, it really is a bother that they are an IC in a unit. With my tyranids I feel a distinct lack of ways to handle the priest before they have managed at least one charge.

Mellon:

Maybe swallow them whole with Molochs? Feel No Pain doesn't work against AP2, and S6 wounds on 2+. Or ambush them with Lictors, who can attack them instead of the unit they accompany.

Remember that Feel No Pain isn't going to do anything against Monstrous Creatures, AP2-, Pyrovores, and Bone Swords, and Furious Charge on works if you...charge.

Terminus:

I agree. In fact I'm rather dis-satisfied with this Codex, insofar as adapting my old Blood Angel army to it. Fast Rhinos are nice, but +15pts? Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, at 50pts a pop? Ouch. I like that stuff, but it makes my army small and brittle.

I do like that some Independent Characters like Chaplains can be attached as Elites, but stuff is either costly (Sanguinary Priests, Rhino-based vehicles, 35pt Death Company), absurd (Deep Strike on Land Raiders - how does that help them?), or just personally undesirable (Devastators without Combat Tactics? Yech).

Deuce11:

I don't think the lack of scatter is nonsensical. After all, Imperial aircraft designs demonstrate that the Imperium has the ballistics of bricks down to a fine art. What I find nonsensical at the moment is why anyone would want to Deep Strike a Land Raider. There's the fact that they're going to come onto the board on T2, and more likely later, when their Locator Beacon might not have survived (although see Scout Bikers), the massive footprint of the Land Raider making Mishaps highly likely, and the fact that then the contents won't be able to assault until the turn after they arrive. It's like the opposite of Heroic Intervention.

Well PDF rhinos were 40 points, so its only +10 points and instead of fast 50% of the time and immobile 16% of the time you're fast 100% with NO downside.. Not sure why you wouldnt want to pay for that.. Rather have an ability than not have it

Razorbacks are only +5 points over last codex too, so thats a pretty damn good deal considering they DIDNT have over charged engines last time.. Yeah they're 15 pts more than the SM book but I prefer to compare it to .. you know BA books not SM books

50 pts to give all units within 6" FNP does not make an army small nor brittle.. In fact it makes it 50% tougher vs any small arms and since the majority of weapons in the game are S3-5 thats a pretty good deal

Kirasu:

I didn't say I didn't want Fast vehicles: Fast vehicles are great, particularly stuff like Predators. However that extra 15pts adds up. Each Marine is ~15 points. So converting a Space Marine force to a Blood Angels force gives you -1 Marine per Rhino. Each Sanguinary Priest gives you -3 Marines. Eventually you're down a squad or two to give conditional bonuses to your army. That's why I'm not a fan of Plague Marines: Sure they're good against small arms fire, but they pay extra points for effectiveness against stuff like Battle Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and so on that they gain no benefit against, and which is good anti-marine weaponry to begin with. 50% tougher against small arms, but less resistant overall with fewer wounds.

The majority of the weapons in the game may be S3-5, but the weapons that do the damage to Space Marines are usually the weapons that ignore Feel No Pain as well. Stick one in Terminator Armour, for the cost of another two Space Marines, and attach him to an Assault Terminator squad with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields and you have something evil though.

I think one approach will be just to leave the Sanguinary Priest in a transport, and use its hull to both protect him, and cast his net far and wide.

coem on you are a choas player. We have the daemons , scary spikey stuff and undead people . They should be scared of us

Nurglitch wrote:Mellon:

Maybe swallow them whole with Molochs? Feel No Pain doesn't work against AP2, and S6 wounds on 2+. Or ambush them with Lictors, who can attack them instead of the unit they accompany.

Remember that Feel No Pain isn't going to do anything against Monstrous Creatures, AP2-, Pyrovores, and Bone Swords, and Furious Charge on works if you...charge.

Yeah, I'm quite content that I'll be able to kill them, I just lack ways to do it reliably before turn three, and it's rather likely they get to assault me before then because of all the transports and the aggressive styles of both our armies. But in general I'm not too worried about the BA. I think the tyranids will be a good matchup for them and I think the BA will decrease the effectivity of gunline armies a bit, wich is nice for nids in the meta.