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Post by: ImperialTard
bhsman wrote:ImperialTard wrote:SPECULATION: Warhammer trailer video was totally pointless and a huge let-down.
AFFIRMATION: This post was totally pointless and a huge let-down.
Honestly, it's an entirely new edition for a game, so something like changing rules probably wouldn't translate well into a visual medium, so it's not surprising that it's a letdown. Wait a month for stuff to leak.
They could have shown one race's new models. Everyone knew 8th Edition was coming anyway.
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Post by: bhsman
ImperialTard wrote:They could have shown one race's new models. Everyone knew 8th Edition was coming anyway.
Does a new edition of rules usually accompany releasing new models, though? I could understand the starter set being kept out of the video (as far as we know) in order to frontload hype, but I don't remember 5th getting a new wave of models for 40k. Though I could easily be proven wrong on that. 
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Post by: Ahtman
bhsman wrote:ImperialTard wrote:They could have shown one race's new models. Everyone knew 8th Edition was coming anyway.
Does a new edition of rules usually accompany releasing new models, though?
Usually you are going to get some new sculpts or some re-sculpts with a new edition.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Hjoey75 wrote:We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches.
Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.
While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.
Fleet/Run are + d6", Jump Infantry is 12" move, Bikes up to 24", Slow may be further limited... Riiight...
Maybe people are always ducking & moving, rather than standing still.
What? Lern 2 rite please!
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Post by: Mick A
JohnHwangDD wrote:Hjoey75 wrote:We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches.
Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.
While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.
Fleet/Run are + d6", Jump Infantry is 12" move, Bikes up to 24", Slow may be further limited... Riiight...
Maybe people are always ducking & moving, rather than standing still.
What? Lern 2 rite please!
If you dislike 40k so much why are you on a forum that is more 40k orientated?
Mick
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Mick A wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:Hjoey75 wrote:We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches.
Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.
While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.
Fleet/Run are + d6", Jump Infantry is 12" move, Bikes up to 24", Slow may be further limited... Riiight...
Maybe people are always ducking & moving, rather than standing still.
What? Lern 2 rite please!
If you dislike 40k so much why are you on a forum that is more 40k orientated?
Mick
Probably because despite that it gets a lot of fantasy traffic. (and of all the boards i have found, the most fantasy traffic)
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Post by: bhsman
ShivanAngel wrote:Probably because despite that it gets a lot of fantasy traffic. (and of all the boards i have found, the most fantasy traffic)
To be...fair to John, you are asking this in a thread about an upcoming edition of Fantasy, which does have a section on this site. That's still no reason to exclude him from posting here even if this was a 40k-only website.
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Post by: Kirasu
Hjoey75 wrote:
We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches.
Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.
While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.
Because lining up and marching towards each other in the same fashion for FIFTEEN years adds lots of variety right? Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. However, the big difference seems to be that quite a bit of people play WFB to feel high and mighty over "inferior" 40kers..
Fantasy has serious flaws.. much more so than 40k.. Hence why GW needed to drastically alter the rules
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Kirasu wrote:Hjoey75 wrote:
We all know Fantasy is already better then 40k because it is not ok everyone move 6 inches.
Fire gun with no - because they can move in shoot perfect accuracy as if standing still.
While combat is who has better troops because people do not get scared when out number 40 to 1 but as long as I kill a guy you take ld test.40k is so bad that why I dont like playing it as much it is babys first tabletop.Why I play Fantasy because it so much more with every thing.
Because lining up and marching towards each other in the same fashion for FIFTEEN years adds lots of variety right? Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. However, the big difference seems to be that quite a bit of people play WFB to feel high and mighty over "inferior" 40kers..
Fantasy has serious flaws.. much more so than 40k.. Hence why GW needed to drastically alter the rules
uhhhh thats how battles were fought back then...
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Post by: Kirasu
I had a longer response but I think this will suffice
.. back when exactly? (If youre making some bizarre reference to human history I recommend looking at the game you're playing and then re-thinking such a statement)
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Kirasu wrote:I had a longer response but I think this will suffice
.. back when exactly? (If youre making some bizarre reference to human history I recommend looking at the game you're playing and then re-thinking such a statement)
I was comparing it to human history when similar battle were fought.
Infantry, calvary, arrows, and all that its not much different. Sure there are races that dont exist and magic items and what not. However when battle were fought in a similar fassion a good portion was marching into position to get into range and what not. So yes there is a similarity.
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Post by: Flashman
Your meeting engagement type battles were fought like that, but there were plenty of battles fought on the hop normally with one side being taken by surprise. Battle of Balaklava (relatively modern, but still fought with infantry and cavalry) is an excellent example, with the Russians advancing in the early hours forcing the British Cavalry to scramble into poor defensive positions, whilst one of British infantry commanders (take a bow, Cathcart) couldn't even bothered to get out of bed.
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Flashman wrote:Your meeting engagement type battles were fought like that, but there were plenty of battles fought on the hop normally with one side being taken by surprise. Battle of Balaklava (relatively modern, but still fought with infantry and cavalry) is an excellent example, with the Russians advancing in the early hours forcing the British Cavalry to scramble into poor defensive positions, whilst one of British infantry commanders (take a bow, Cathcart) couldn't even bothered to get out of bed).
This is true, but I would consider these more along the lines of special scenario battles.
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Post by: juraigamer
Well regardless of whats happening to the rules, my 3 friends and myself have already chosen to start fantasy upon this next edition. Easier to learn the new ruleset than learn the older one then switch to the newer one.
We play 40k, and enjoy it. Some posters have said it's dumbed down by comparison, but I assure you we don't just go "Spaceee marines chearG!" When we play.
I'm just reading what everyone is saying about how these new changes will break the game, cause lost fanbase, ect ect. This is just speculation, we don't know that for a fact. In fact, these changes may give fantasy a huge boost in popularity, something it could use considering how well 40k has been doing.
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Post by: Ixquic
If this turns into 40k in medieval times it would be really sad, despite how happy it would make 40k players.
A lot of 40k's popularity is simply due to Space Marine's universal appeal so I really don't think making the rules similar would get that much crossover. Having said that I think these changes are more WotRish than 40kish (which means no one would be happy except the 13 people playing that ruleset).
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
juraigamer wrote:these changes may give fantasy a huge boost in popularity, something it could use considering how well 40k has been doing.
I believe that is GW's intent with Fantasy 8, as was their intent with WotR - to boost other lines to 40k-like popularity, sales, and profitability.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
It is not a question of one system being superior to another.
I didn't start playing WHFB so's I could swan around saying I am superior to 40K players.
I started, presumably like a lot of others, because the genre is appealing.
Goblins, elves and dwarves occupied a greater place in my imagination along with legend and myth, rather than a future based subject.
There is a problem for me if the two systems become conflated. The historical aspect of warfare is important here imho.
Mediaeval and Renassaince armies were dominated by rank and file, as they were in classical times. Pretty much as they were until the advent of modern warfare which seems to be the basis for 40K. They are different beasts and should have distinct identities. I hope that the new rulebook honours that. To base a Rank and File system on Modern Warfare is not a good idea. It may attract new players but for all the wrong reasons.
If WHFB has serious flaws, it does not follow that to fix the system it should become a like 40K.
There must be corrections that can be made within a fantasy Rank and File/Magic setting.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
As long as Fantasy sticks with RnF as the basis of the game and combat, it'll be different from 40k.
Streamlining saves and tweaking Magic doesn't make Fantasy into 40k.
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Post by: Infreak
Dispite all the rumored changes, which sounds to be almost everything, I'm still not put off from 8th. A judgement can't really be made based on rumors, most of which could be way out of context to all the other changes being made. I'm just going to pick up a copy, start playing some games and see how it all works.
The only real concern I have is that in the midst of a massive rule over-haul, something small was over looked, and leaves a ruleset which is far too easily exploitable.
Ultimatly, I think why a lot of people are talking like 8th is the end of the world is simply because they learned all the quirks and loopholes in the current system and don't want to have to bother learning/finding them in the next edition. Grumpy Old Man Syndrome if you will. Change = Bad.
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Post by: ShivanAngel
I do like the shoot in two ranks idea. I always thought that a unit should be able to give up their movement in order to fire in 2 ranks. The loss of movement is because the front rank is kneeling down to allow the second rank to shoot over them.
I spread out my archers in one long line of 10 at the moment and hardly move them, a 5x2 block not only looks better, but allows for more maneuvering.
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Post by: juraigamer
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Streamlining saves and tweaking Magic doesn't make Fantasy into 40k.
Here we go, exactly what I meant to say. Faster games means more fun overall.
RnF is something that I really like, seeing how I've always loved the total war series of games.
Battles are unpredictable, which is why i actually like the random charge distance idea. A degree of randomness makes the game less certain, just like any battle.
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Post by: Karon
I'll admit, this is a bit of a strong reaction due to the new rules. However, I do not like them. If you look in this thread, lots of people do not like them. Many of the people who do like it are giving the excuse either "At least it's not WotR", or "It's more like WH40K". If you notice, most of the people in the second group admit they rarely play WHFB because they like 40K more, some even saying they don't play WHFB because it's too different from 40K. Those who play WHFB because they like it being different from 40K are not amused, and these rumors turning out to be true is a valid reason for such a group to be peeved.
----------
Couldn't agree more, part of the reason I joined fantasy is because it was so different from 40k (which I find terribly boring)
I don't want Warhammer: 40,000, but with Magic!
Honestly, I want fantasy to be fantasy, I don't want it to be simplified, I don't want things to be streamlined, that makes the game boring and too simple.
I'm not impressed by these rumor's at all. I completely agree with Jin once again, who basically read my mind.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
A minor point: There would be a difference between bows/crossbows and guns. The former would not have to have a kneeling front rank. Would be impossible with a longbow anyways 
Battles are unpredictable, and that randomness is already written into the game's engine. Still unconvinced by the random charging. It may be that the degree is the problem. A potential difference of 5" is a relatively high percentage of distance to be unsure of. It still seems too random.
And slow down young Padawan! don't be in such a hurry
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:A minor point: There would be a difference between bows/crossbows and guns. The former would not have to have a kneeling front rank. Would be impossible with a longbow anyways
Battles are unpredictable, and that randomness is already written into the game's engine. Still unconvinced by the random charging. It may be that the degree is the problem. A potential difference of 5" is a relatively high percentage of distance to be unsure of. It still seems too random.
And slow down young Padawan! don't be in such a hurry
This is exactly why i dont like random charges. The game is already has some very random aspects, flee distance and pursue distance. Adding another degree of randomness changes the game more from good strategy to woot lucky dice.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
To be honest, the variable charge is a good thing to have for WFB - uneven ground, orders, having to stay in ranks - it makes more sense for WFB.
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Post by: bd1085
3000 pts for tournaments? That's gonna put a dent in everyone's wallet.
Personally I like these changes and look forward to fighting smaller battles like 1500 or 2000.
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Post by: Grimstonefire
Whoever it was saying 30". My understanding is that it is basic movment +2D6" for anything with M7 or more.
Movement +D6" for anything M6 or less.
I've done some editing on the sticky again today. Because I know lots of you guys can't read it at work I will start a new thread here and copy it over.
Note as well there is an interesting rumour I found today. It could potentially mean this (if I understood it correctly):
Put simply, ther rumour is for some sort of 'column' bonus for each model past 5 wide (up to +4).
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Post by: Leggy
Is anyone else thinking it may be worthwhile running missile troops 10x2? So far it seems you'll get benefits for huge frontage, plus both ranks can fire. I can't yet see why this wont be optimum size (although we're still waiting on rules, obviously)
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Hi John
Have considered that aspect but shouldn't the terrain take care of that factor so there is no need for a d6?
I agree with Shivan but if there has to be a roll then d3 would be preferable, as a maximum shortfall of 3" on the charge could stll make a difference, but chances of a catastrophic failure would be lessened. It seems more realistic. To fall short of a charge by 5" is the stuff of Keystone Cops.
Just because the figures are in movement trays shoulder to shoulder, would have thought that in the charge the formation of most units would be looser.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Grimstonefire found these rumours today, including a contents list of the starter set (which looks a bit unfair for Skaven  ):
A collection of rumours I have found in my trawling of the web. Some of these may or may not have been discredited already, but if there is something here worth adding to the sticky can someone please pm me or reply here.
July 6, GW puts up the pdf of erratas for all armies
There will be a section in the book dealing with questions that arise in a game (now we see why it's going to be 528 pages! lol).
Bonuses and hazards for terrain (such as rolling the dice to see how many people don’t make it out of the wood)
£40 for book... The actual rumour was 50 euro, but I figured £40 was better than £43.
Battle standard bearer worth more to capture.
Fear +1 to Combat resolution
Terror +2 to combat resolution
Rank bonuses remain at up to +3, but can increase by up to 4 for each additional column of troops.
E.g. a unit 7 wide by 4 deep. +3 rank bonus. +1 for the 6th model wide, +1 for 7th model wide.
Killing blow only against models in a similar size category or lower (large creature>ogre sized> infantry/cavalry sized)
Creatures that cause fear (or terror) will be immune to panic.
Leadership tests against fear are going!?
Edit:
Also
65 euros (£55?)
5 silver helms
15 spearmen/sea guard(?)
Hero on Griffon
mage
10 archers
chariot!?!
Skaven
40 clanrats
2 weapon teams
2 characters
Rat ogre with what translated as a warp cannon??
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Post by: kestral
I don't play much fantasy, but I do enjoy the games I play.
I like the idea of simplified movement. Its a drag in fantasy currently, and leads to some really weird situations. This would speed the game considerably.
I might like random charge distances. It makes the game less about luring people into your charge distance, which seems to be how I win battles, but is a little boring. Its also less about "charge footsy" where you spend alot time squinting at the battlefield and trying to decide if the other unit is 16" inches away or not. (I play Brets.)
No marching heavy Cavalry? HERESY!
I like "stepping up". It makes blocks really hard to crush, as would the extra column's rule above. In general I like the idea of wide units that create more of a "line" across the battle field.
Magic? No clue if this is good or not. Never really cared about FB magic. On the whole though I'd like to see it play less of role in the battle rather than more.
Fighting in 2 ranks? Ok I suppose. Don't really want more dice.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Have considered that aspect but shouldn't the terrain take care of that factor so there is no need for a d6?
I agree with Shivan but if there has to be a roll then d3 would be preferable, as a maximum shortfall of 3" on the charge could stll make a difference, but chances of a catastrophic failure would be lessened. It seems more realistic. To fall short of a charge by 5" is the stuff of Keystone Cops.
Actually, to be *most* realistic, Charging should depend more on Ld than Mv, with a Ld test to be passed with a +1 bonus for Skirmishers, -1 penalty for Ranked... Charging in Ranks is a complex action that is difficult to effectively coordinate.
A lot of other historicals systems use variable movement to capture this same issue.
And really, + d6 / + 2d6 adds highly desirable detail to the Movement system that 40k simply doesn't have. Rolling a 1 is more indicative of the Command & Communication structure breaking down or than the actual troopers doing something. And most likely, certain races will roll bonus d6, or have re-roll modifier or roll 2d3 or something else.
The more I think about variable charge distance in Fantasy, the more I like it.
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Post by: Minsc
I find it funny that there are people arguing both "Rolling more dice in combat is good because it balances out averages" and "Rolling 2D6 for charges is good because it adds some randomness to the game". Just a FYI.
There are some rules I'm fine with in the new edition. Firing in two ranks I've never had a problem with, and the Killing Blow rule seems slightly better (because, really, can you think of someone other than a Gorger and Manticore who benefits from that change as the rules stand ATM?) whilst similarly giving more use. However, Fear tests no longer causing panic? What? That... that doesn't make sense to me. Fluff-wise, anyways, and game-wise I can't see much use in this change.
Immunity to Panic in Fear / Terror units, if true, also sounds less than stellar to me. Basically, Trolls are only ever bothered by Stupidity and Combat Resolution now. That's an example, not the only impact it'll have.
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Post by: ShivanAngel
Minsc wrote:I find it funny that there are people arguing both "Rolling more dice in combat is good because it balances out averages" and "Rolling 2D6 for charges is good because it adds some randomness to the game". Just a FYI.
There are some rules I'm fine with in the new edition. Firing in two ranks I've never had a problem with, and the Killing Blow rule seems slightly better (because, really, can you think of someone other than a Gorger and Manticore who benefits from that change as the rules stand ATM?) whilst similarly giving more use. However, Fear tests no longer causing panic? What? That... that doesn't make sense to me. Fluff-wise, anyways, and game-wise I can't see much use in this change.
Immunity to Panic in Fear / Terror units, if true, also sounds less than stellar to me. Basically, Trolls are only ever bothered by Stupidity and Combat Resolution now. That's an example, not the only impact it'll have.
The problem people have with fear iirc, is that you have to test to charge 10 ghouls with a 25 block of infantry. I highly doubt the 25 infantry are going to be to terrified to charge the ghouls
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Post by: skyth
Minsc wrote:Killing Blow rule seems slightly better (because, really, can you think of someone other than a Gorger and Manticore who benefits from that change as the rules stand ATM?)
Hydra for one. Beastmen have a killing blow on 4+ large creature also.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Not sure where to post this, but the other 8th edition thread is on rules only, so I post it here:
calmacil from Ulthuan.net posted his version of the starter box contents (High Elf side):
Swordmasters, Ellyrian Reavers, Lothern Seaguard and a Griffon.
He also said that there will be other HE releases this year (confirmed by Avian from Warseer), a.o. plastic White Lions. Not accompanied by an army book though (says Avian). calmacil predicted the HE/Skaven starter box a year ago, so he is not completely untrustworthy
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Post by: JOHIRA
Kroothawk wrote:calmacil from Ulthuan.net posted his version of the starter box contents (High Elf side):
Swordmasters, Ellyrian Reavers, Lothern Seaguard and a Griffon.
Wow. If those models look nice then the starter set just moved from a "probably buy" to a "must have". I'm not too fussed one way or the other about the griffon, but the others are kits I've wanted in plastic for a long time. I hope the Seaguard look like the old metal Seaguard, who were some of the slickest HE metals I've ever seen. Hopefully they won't be ordinary spearelves with a quiver stuck on somewhere.
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Post by: Flashman
Just been over in Warseer (yeah, I know, but it's quiet over here today. Even MGS and Gwar! are being nice to each other ) and there was some mutterings about an Abomination release this summer. It's Warseer and therefore probably rubbish, but anybody else heard anything that might back this up?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
there was some mutterings about an Abomination release this summer
It'll be the new Justin Timberlake album.
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Post by: Flashman
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:there was some mutterings about an Abomination release this summer
It'll be the new Justin Timberlake album.
Oh god, does he still have a career?
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Post by: Kirasu
Flashman wrote:Just been over in Warseer (yeah, I know, but it's quiet over here today. Even MGS and Gwar! are being nice to each other ) and there was some mutterings about an Abomination release this summer. It's Warseer and therefore probably rubbish, but anybody else heard anything that might back this up?
To be fair to warseer.. Their rumors arent rubbish as dakka and every other site generally steals the rumors *from* there because of the late brim and harry
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Post by: Flashman
Fair enough, but this was of the "I was going to get my mate to make me an Abomination, but he said not to bother because they're going to release one in the summer" variety.
I'm not sure why I bothered Dakka with it really. I guess I just want to see one released.
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Post by: Dorgrim
Xyz'r'Xaz'r'Xuz wrote:Bye-the-bye...does anyone have an idea when "this summer" 8th edition is supposed to drop? 
Local store is getting its rulebook first week of June, so probably July-ish. Kind of excited we (about 15 of us) are starting a camp. with new rules, will be fun with seasoned vets being confused as hell if the changes are for reals.  Automatically Appended Next Post: ShivanAngel wrote:
The problem people have with fear iirc, is that you have to test to charge 10 ghouls with a 25 block of infantry. I highly doubt the 25 infantry are going to be to terrified to charge the ghouls
Unless of course they are skaven slaves or night gobos. Leadership average of 7-8 plus a general nearby makes it hardly a bother with fear. Plus the ghouls might be wearing lipstick and eyeballing the enemy in a funny manner.
BUT i can see your point.
GW needs to gather 10 random seasoned players, stick them in a room, and say " Oi, make us a balanced fantasy edition and we will MAYBE buy a blister for ya lots" 
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Post by: Warboss Narznok
The page on gamesworkshop has a countdown for something. words and stuff on the countdown show sigmar and stuff. it is confirmed. new warhammer.
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Post by: Buttlerthepug
Warboss Narznok wrote:The page on gamesworkshop has a countdown for something. words and stuff on the countdown show sigmar and stuff. it is confirmed. new warhammer.
It was confirmed over a month or two ago in an email.
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Post by: Quistis84
And the countdown is until it's available to advance order - 15th June
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Post by: Kroothawk
That's why we use the other 8th edition thread since 8th May, where all information is in, including release date, first store preview demo games, second store preview date, and sample pages (with transcription):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/290823.page
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