24035
Post by: Ostrakon
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ostrakon, I'm going to have to politely disagree.
During your continued and persistent justification of 'it's only 10%', you've failed to factor that this isn't the only recent price increase.
GW have been pushing and pushing the prices for years.
Explain why from Mantic Games, I can get the following undead for £22.50
# 1 x Undead Skeleton Regiment (20 Figures with Command Group)
# 1 x Undead Revenant Regiment (20 Figures with Command Group)
# 1 x Ghoul Troop (10 Figures)
# 1 x Balefire Catapult Frame
# 1 x Catapult Crew Frame (2 FIgures)
# 6 x Undead Sticker Sheets
# 2 x Undead Guide/Poster
# 52 x 20mm square Bases
# 2 x 48mm Mantic Case with protective foam
When, from Games Workshop, you'd need to spend £24 just to get:
10 x ghouls
10 x skeletons
You can hardly cite the mystic 'overheads' any longer, given the pay freezes, massive layoffs of staff and cessation of events other than those centred on selling.
The company is greedy, cynical and manipulative and willing to abuse it's customer's love of the hobby to the absolute limit, as previous financial reports to the shareholders have indicated with citation of the 'move plastic mini prices to match metal minis' following the metal mini price hike due to the non-existent 'tin crisis'. Or the reference to the customer's willingness to tolerate 'price elasticity' and suffer 'reduced expenditure for other luxuries'.
Other companies are starting to show us just how hiked up the price of GW minis are. They have long been divorced from 'the hobby' they tout and been devoted instead to seperating us from as much money as they can, employing very underhand tactics like the Imperial Guard troop box issue or the price elevations on 'elite' units like the infamous gold swords.
I mean, I work for an insurance company, I understand very clearly the oft cited 'they gotta make a profit' and don't see it with GW, just a short term 'smash and grab' to slowly force price up, people out, which is a very delicate thing to hold up. Eventually you end up with a select few buying minis for £hundreds. You then have a very fragile purchasing ecology, one destined to encounter an extinction.
Most real big corps treat their customers well, they understand the value of contented and loyal purchasing public. They also have far better PR than the shocking sledgehammer bullying we've seen from GW.
Coca Cola would f**king kill to have nerds putting praising and publicising websites up about them. GW has them for free and attacks them instead of helping them.
It's a shoddy firm, GW dwells in the late 80s, Gordon Gekko telling them 'Greed is God' and 'Nice Guys Finish Last'. It's a myth, in the long run that attitude spells extinction.
And yes Ostrakon, it's just 10%, it was just 15% last time and 12% the time before that. But they add up and they've been adding up in shorter and shorter gaps, with you're 'plural number of brain cells' I'd have hoped you could figure that one out. This luxury item is becoming very luxury indeed, given the competition it now suffers from from outside it's easily identifiable competitors (ie, MMOs, computer gaming in general) and the dire way it copes with them and the internet in general, I remain fairly confident that touting what they're doing as 'perfectly reasonable' is total bs.
I don't think you understand what it means to be a public business. You're hating the player when you should, in fact, be hating the game. Mantic is not a public business. There are no Mantic shareholders. Mantic can charge whatever they want and not have to worry about turning a maximum profit. GW is. GW does. They have to exercise due diligence by maximizing profits. They'll keep raising prices until people stop buying them, or until profits are so retardedly high that their shareholders stop bitching about only slightly exceeding sales expectations. Just google 'due diligence'. If they don't, they could face a minority shareholder suit that could potentially gut the company to the point where there wouldn't even BE a GW anymore. GW isn't evil. They were stupid to make the company go public, but they're not evil. They're an indifferent cog in an evil machine constructed by idiots with no sense for sustainability or collateral damage. But the point remains, as I've said several times before. If any sort of reasonable price increase (30ish% over three years really isn't all that bad) is going to prevent you from playing this game, then you fethed up pretty hard with your finances. Cost should never be an issue when it comes to hobbies. They're optional, you should only be indulging in them when you have money to spare beyond that anyway. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fateweaver wrote:
Who advertises more in stores? Who has dedicated stores with overhead? Far as I know Mantic doesn't have it's own gaming stores nor are they spending as much on advertising as GW.
From a personal perspective the Mantic minis look like crap and so I would pay GW for their much better looking skellies and ghouls even though I get fewer of them. Warmachine is on par with GW when it comes to sculpt quality, Rackham is close but there prices are nearly the same (if not worst....WM cavalry anyone? Talk about wallet rape). For some people it's aesthetic appeal. A Ford Focus will get you to work just as well as a Lamborghini will but people who need to keep up appearances or feel they do will buy the Lambo IF they can afford it because while the Focus will get them too/from the movie studio or their office in the corporate building of the corporation they happen to own, the Lambo looks a lot better doing it. Hell, if I won $200M in the lottery I'd buy a Lambo just for the reason it looks a lot better compared to 99% of all cars on the road.
*I got some free Mantic elves this past fall when I ordered from the WarStore. They went in the garbage can. Might be able to buy 2 or 3 times as many for the same price as GW charges for it's HE's but no way in hell would I make a "counts as" HE or WE army with Mantic elves.
To be fair, those Mantic Skeletons blow the GW ones out of the water. If I ever play VC I'll use those instead.
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Post by: Fateweaver
I edited my post to reflect my thoughts on the Mantic elves. Way TOO small compared to GW scale and no detail at all.
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Post by: Ostrakon
inmygravenimage wrote:I think what I find most unpleasant about this whole business (and yes, I appreciate that it's a business) is that it's really going to hit kids. At the end of the day, we are grown-ups and can therefore in theory afford the toys we play with. But, to take my own nephews, they are both totally psyched about 40k and absolutely scrimp and save (which is no bad thing) to be able to afford product. They're enthusiastic, interested kids who are the core of the future play base for GW, and this is just going to make it harder for them - and their parents. One thing that riles me is that parents are fully prepared to hand over fist-fulls of cash to game companies (and I use that in the broadest sense); bluntly, my sister-and-brother-in-law are not well off but want their kids to be happy, and love seeing the boys involved in a hobby that is both creative and social.
Grr.
[/rant]
Uh, this game doesn't really strike me as ones designed for kids to pick up in play. Painstaking amounts of effort, very high initial investment, learning a gakload of rules, etc. Do you really want to be playing against kids?
Adolescents, on the other hand... I feel bad for them, but if they can't afford it after these price increases, they can't have reasonably afforded them before that increase.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Fateweaver wrote:
Who advertises more in stores? Who has dedicated stores with overhead? Far as I know Mantic doesn't have it's own gaming stores nor are they spending as much on advertising as GW.
Who has an international presence? Who sells 100fold, what mantic are selling? Who uses those storefronts as recruiting offices for their games? GW wouldn't keep those open if it wasn't geared to the profit margin. They don't run those shops as a goodwill gesture, FLGS stay open and in profit selling GW stuff after having bought it themselves, how much more profit is the company making selling it's own profit direct?
C'mon, that's a crazy defence even from you.
Fateweaver wrote:
From a personal perspective the Mantic minis look like crap and so I would pay GW for their much better looking skellies and ghouls even though I get fewer of them. Warmachine is on par with GW when it comes to sculpt quality, Rackham is close but I don't even think they make minis anymore do they?
*I got some free Mantic elves this past fall when I ordered from the WarStore. They went in the garbage can. Might be able to buy 2 or 3 times as many for the same price as GW charges for it's HE's but no way in hell would I make a "counts as" HE or WE army with Mantic elves.
I didn't like the elves either, however the detail was good. The Undead range are considerably better imo, on par with the GW undead. And frankly this argument is also weak, it's based on your personal feelings on aesthetics. GW make some real stinkers imo and charges a lot more. (mi-na-taurz... oblits, pumbagor, the entire current dark eldar range...).
So, maintaining store fronts (which recruit, sell direct to the customer at the price GW dictate and are currently being cut back, along with the staff in them...) and pure aesthetics...
Neither holds up as a defence.
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Post by: Sharpasaspoon
Fateweaver wrote:10 years ago minimum wage in the US was $5.15.
In another thread a while back (like nearly a year ago) someone did some number crunching comparing a few boxed sets 10 years ago to now and in reality while the prices went up a few dollars on things, the increase in min. wage has actually made it so a person has to work LESS to get the same stuff.
10 years ago a person making min. wage in the US had to work for 6 hours to buy a tactical squad box. Now it only requires 5 hours of work at min. wage to buy that box even though it's $5 higher.
In 1990 you had to work for 13 hours at min. wage to afford a 10 man terminator squad. Today it's the same amount of labor at min. wage for 10 terminators (with the added bonus they look a lot better, are plastic, more customizable and did I mention look a lot better)?
Now that's interesting but shouldn't things be getting better/easier as a society anyway?
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Post by: Ostrakon
Sharpasaspoon wrote:Fateweaver wrote:10 years ago minimum wage in the US was $5.15.
In another thread a while back (like nearly a year ago) someone did some number crunching comparing a few boxed sets 10 years ago to now and in reality while the prices went up a few dollars on things, the increase in min. wage has actually made it so a person has to work LESS to get the same stuff.
10 years ago a person making min. wage in the US had to work for 6 hours to buy a tactical squad box. Now it only requires 5 hours of work at min. wage to buy that box even though it's $5 higher.
In 1990 you had to work for 13 hours at min. wage to afford a 10 man terminator squad. Today it's the same amount of labor at min. wage for 10 terminators (with the added bonus they look a lot better, are plastic, more customizable and did I mention look a lot better)?
Now that's interesting but shouldn't things be getting better/easier as a society anyway?
Not really. Technology, standards of living, etc. are all going to improve over time, but commodities are always going to be commodities.
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Post by: Surtur
I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
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Post by: Ostrakon
Surtur wrote:I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
Haha, just like Apple is?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Tbh this is what annoys me more about the buisness choices of GW.
Its one more footstep along a broken path that will eventually lead them to oblivion. And thanks to the call to go public, not one of those shareholders will bat an eyelid when it collapses in upon itself.
All because the average middle class family, whose kiddies GW believe they need to be recycling through every year, stop buying it because its becoming silly money.
Especially as prices everywhere else are going up at the same time, thus less cash is available for hobbies, and its going to get worse, not better in the next few years.
Hell our supermarket has slowed in the past few months, and we're a on the spot 7eleven/convience equivilent shop in a prime location. How the hell does GW think its going to cover those increases with a niche hobby market. I can only see this move leading to a decrease in sales.
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Post by: inmygravenimage
Ostrakon wrote:
Uh, this game doesn't really strike me as ones designed for kids to pick up in play. Painstaking amounts of effort, very high initial investment, learning a gakload of rules, etc. Do you really want to be playing against kids?
Adolescents, on the other hand... I feel bad for them, but if they can't afford it after these price increases, they can't have reasonably afforded them before that increase.
Ok. I'm going to try very, very hard not to  In no particular order:
1. They're 9 & 12. The younger one is better at modelling, and actually has more patience than the older in that regard. It's brought them closer together as brothers, too., particularly with 3 yr old and 2 month old siblings. Furthermore, the older one's just started high school, and instantly has a pool of friends all the way up to 18, which has had a really positive effect on his transition.
2. I started playing 40k when I was 10. I have been a gamer for the last 22 years. Only through the encouragement and support of peers and older/more experienced players did I grow in experience.
3. I've been a rep for multiple ccg companies. Yes, I'll play against kids, happily teach them, and watch them integrate complex rules system.
4. I think it's a naive standpoint to underestimate the intelligence and wit of young people. I'm a high school teacher, I work with them every day and I would still happily wargame with them by choice. And if you still don't think that kids can understand gaming, look at Gitsplitta's blog with his 6&9 yr old.
5. GW aim their product at 12+. Veteran nights / tournaments are there if you don't like small people.
6. No hobby can develop without supporting the youth side of the market - just look at smoking 
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Post by: Compel
What we need to do, is inform any parents of those kids about the price increases (particularly with the example of over the last 12 months exactly, guard infantry have gone up from 90 pence each to £1.50 - making the price for 50 guardsmen, you're average army core, from £45 to £75 - remember 10 years ago it was £25).
Particularly the Scottish parents (or Geordies), basically, mothers with a rather loud, angry voice who will complain, loudly, and in person in front of all the other mothers and the kids at the GW stores.
I, for one, have taken the opportunity yet again to remind my neighbours grandson about maelstrom.
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Post by: Ostrakon
inmygravenimage wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
Uh, this game doesn't really strike me as ones designed for kids to pick up in play. Painstaking amounts of effort, very high initial investment, learning a gakload of rules, etc. Do you really want to be playing against kids?
Adolescents, on the other hand... I feel bad for them, but if they can't afford it after these price increases, they can't have reasonably afforded them before that increase.
Ok. I'm going to try very, very hard not to In no particular order:
1. They're 9 & 12. The younger one is better at modelling, and actually has more patience than the older in that regard. It's brought them closer together as brothers, too., particularly with 3 yr old and 2 month old siblings. Furthermore, the older one's just started high school, and instantly has a pool of friends all the way up to 18, which has had a really positive effect on his transition.
2. I started playing 40k when I was 10. I have been a gamer for the last 22 years. Only through the encouragement and support of peers and older/more experienced players did I grow in experience.
3. I've been a rep for multiple ccg companies. Yes, I'll play against kids, happily teach them, and watch them integrate complex rules system.
4. I think it's a naive standpoint to underestimate the intelligence and wit of young people. I'm a high school teacher, I work with them every day and I would still happily wargame with them by choice. And if you still don't think that kids can understand gaming, look at Gitsplitta's blog with his 6&9 yr old.
5. GW aim their product at 12+. Veteran nights / tournaments are there if you don't like small people.
6. No hobby can develop without supporting the youth side of the market - just look at smoking
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Ugh. Not sure what elves I saw but Mantic ones look good. I did get some crap looking ones free with a WarStore order.
So I retract my elf comment. Though I'm not impressed with the skellies, the Revenants look good though.
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Post by: Samus666
Ostrakon wrote:
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
Uh, so your playing preferences should be the arbiter of who gets to play? That's a pretty selfish attitude. I don't enjoy playing against children either, that doesn't mean they should be priced out of the hobby and have their fun spoiled. Just avoid playing against them - its not difficult.
Also, your earlier comments about how 'if you can't afford the price rises you should've handled your finances better' were really offensive. Some people end up poor no matter what, because they're just victims of circumstance. Capitalism is designed that way. Poor people deserve some happiness too. If you can afford all the price rises so easily that you don't even care about them then I'm glad for you. But I don't see why I should be priced out of a hobby I've supported for most of my life, just because some shareholders got greedy and made shortsighted decisions.
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Post by: inmygravenimage
Samus666 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
Uh, so your playing preferences should be the arbiter of who gets to play? That's a pretty selfish attitude. I don't enjoy playing against children either, that doesn't mean they should be priced out of the hobby and have their fun spoiled. Just avoid playing against them - its not difficult.
Also, your earlier comments about how 'if you can't afford the price rises you should've handled your finances better' were really offensive. Some people end up poor no matter what, because they're just victims of circumstance. Capitalism is designed that way. Poor people deserve some happiness too. If you can afford all the price rises so easily that you don't even care about them then I'm glad for you. But I don't see why I should be priced out of a hobby I've supported for most of my life, just because some shareholders got greedy and made shortsighted decisions.
Still, if folk are scared of getting beaten by a 9-yr old, fair enough.
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Post by: Fateweaver
I think if I suddenly got poor (and I did) GW products would be the first to see the chopping block as far as new purchases.
I swear the people who play Fantasy/40k must have never been a member at a golf club or played paintball or even been part of a LAN club for FPS's (try keeping up with the latest and fasted video cards and processors; that gak will make you refinance your house if you want your gaming rig to remain competitive. Horsepower matters as much in FPS gaming as skill does).
It's great people kids want to get involved but I'd say it's also foolish to start building up a second army for your 9yo son/daughter. Kids that young have ADD when it comes to toys. I guess it does benefit dad if 9yo Billy decides at 11 he hates 40k. Dad has a 2nd army. Though if dad doesn't like said army then he has to go through the hassle of trying to get rid of it.
If you must get your kids into 40k use your army(ies) at first. But don't really plan to buy up 2250 or 2k of Fantasy/40k without realizing that at some point in time before he/she turns 18 they'll probably grow out of it.
Again, it's not GW that is evil. Hobbies are something that should be indulged in only if you have the spare income. If you have to make sacrifices elsewhere (though cigs and booze I approve of as those aren't necessary to live) to find money for any hobby (not just wargaming) than you have your priorities wrong.
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Post by: inmygravenimage
Addendum: I think this is getting OT, which is partly my fault. Apologies.
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Post by: InventionThirteen
Imagine what a price DROP would do for their sales... SILLY LITTLE MEN
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Post by: Ostrakon
Samus666 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
Uh, so your playing preferences should be the arbiter of who gets to play? That's a pretty selfish attitude. I don't enjoy playing against children either, that doesn't mean they should be priced out of the hobby and have their fun spoiled. Just avoid playing against them - its not difficult.
Also, your earlier comments about how 'if you can't afford the price rises you should've handled your finances better' were really offensive. Some people end up poor no matter what, because they're just victims of circumstance. Capitalism is designed that way. Poor people deserve some happiness too. If you can afford all the price rises so easily that you don't even care about them then I'm glad for you. But I don't see why I should be priced out of a hobby I've supported for most of my life, just because some shareholders got greedy and made shortsighted decisions.
There are very, very few people in civilized countries who have enough money to get into 40k and then become poor simply by being victims of circumstance. Capitalism kind of sucks, but it's not usually bad enough to take someone from financial stability to irrevocable destitution unless somebody made some really bad choices. Yeah, some people, like me, were born into a poor family. Does that mean that I should've gotten to play 40k when I was 9? Not really, poor families need to focus on NEEDS instead of unnecessary distractions. Poor people certainly have a right to be happy and get themselves into or back into financial stability, be it from outside assistance or hard work or both.
Doesn't mean that they should be spending money on gak they can't afford. Sure, they have a right to. But it makes them absolutely fething stupid.
How the feth is it offensive to say "Don't play something you can't afford?" Are you defending the decision to pour money into something you shouldn't? Are people who started playing 40k and now can't continue playing because models are more expensive "victims of circumstance?"
And when the feth did I say anything about 9 year olds shouldn't be allowed to play? All I said was that most people don't like playing kids (true statement) and that the game is in no way geared towards kids that age (also true). If some guy learns to play when he's 10, fething fantastic, but that makes him an outlier. That doesn't mean we should be marketing a game to third graders that, to them, would glorify a warmongering, grossly xenophobic theocracy.
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Post by: Fateweaver
It wouldn't do much I bet.
Again, it's a fantastical dream to imagine any corporation, not just GW, lowering prices over time rather than raising them.
You will never see soft drink prices lower; you will never see candy or cigarette or alcohol prices lower. Know why? They don't have to.
What if GW lowered it's prices by 20% but sales after 6 months didn't actually increase at all. Know what happens? The shareholders get scared, they threaten to sue GW or else they start to sell. GW stock plummets and revenue plummets. Know how they get it back? They raise prices even more to get the money back they lost so if prices drop 20% over 2 years but it backfires than the best way to recover would be to raise prices 40% over 2 years. In the end we lose even more.
Sure that's a worst case scenario but price drops don't automatically equate to increased sales.
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Post by: Ostrakon
inmygravenimage wrote:Samus666 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
Uh, so your playing preferences should be the arbiter of who gets to play? That's a pretty selfish attitude. I don't enjoy playing against children either, that doesn't mean they should be priced out of the hobby and have their fun spoiled. Just avoid playing against them - its not difficult.
Also, your earlier comments about how 'if you can't afford the price rises you should've handled your finances better' were really offensive. Some people end up poor no matter what, because they're just victims of circumstance. Capitalism is designed that way. Poor people deserve some happiness too. If you can afford all the price rises so easily that you don't even care about them then I'm glad for you. But I don't see why I should be priced out of a hobby I've supported for most of my life, just because some shareholders got greedy and made shortsighted decisions.
Still, if folk are scared of getting beaten by a 9-yr old, fair enough.
The vast majority of players either play competitvely, or play to have fun games. Against a little kid, neither one of these is going to happen. He's not exactly going to have a mastery of the rules, and the kind of spoiled brat that's going to have his parents shelling out money for an army isn't going to exactly to do anything but provide a nice Dakka story of your worst opponent of the week. Best case scenario is that he was trained by 40k-dad and actually knows the basics and might make for an entertaining opponent (if not a good one), but that's not always going to be the case.
Most kids that age make up rules and gak as they go along. Ever been to a magic draft where Mom drops off the kids to be babysat by the poor TO? They just want to play toy soldiers, not a game with rules and tactics.
But what the feth are you going to do? Tell the kid you don't want to play because there's no challenge? donkey-cave kid or not, you can't really be a dick to a 9 year old.
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Post by: notprop
Samus666 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
I think 12 qualifies as an adolescent.
9, though? I'm guessing very few players would want to regularly play a 9 year old.
Uh, so your playing preferences should be the arbiter of who gets to play? That's a pretty selfish attitude. I don't enjoy playing against children either, that doesn't mean they should be priced out of the hobby and have their fun spoiled. Just avoid playing against them - its not difficult. Also, your earlier comments about how 'if you can't afford the price rises you should've handled your finances better' were really offensive. Some people end up poor no matter what, because they're just victims of circumstance. Capitalism is designed that way. Poor people deserve some happiness too. If you can afford all the price rises so easily that you don't even care about them then I'm glad for you. But I don't see why I should be priced out of a hobby I've supported for most of my life, just because some shareholders got greedy and made shortsighted decisions.
Dem dar socialist words boy!  Oh and in thread high on conjecture a little fact - tin prices since 2001  Seems if you want metal things could get worse. Unfortunately I fall into the realist camp here. I accept that GW will inevitably have to increase their prices and will still buy from them [but will be placing a big order with Dark Shere especially if I can get down there before June], its certainly not worth decrying anyone because it is a fact of capatilist economic structure that prices will ineviatbly rise. Sorry. That being said, GW's main market is not directly kids but the wealthy parents of said kids. If GW are raising prices to increase profits then I would suggest that they know that any homeowner with a steady average wage has more disposable income now than for sometime thanks to the drop in morgage rates and supermarket price wars. If little Jonny wants and extra £2.50 for toys to keep him happy, so what? Also I do kind of like the Mantic skellies since they seem to be the yard stick, but for a fair [ ] price comparison between Mantic and GW products must have the respective overhead aspect included. If you buy GW products then you are buying into [willingly or not] the concept of GW promoting their product through GW retail which no other manufacturer do. Afterall it is kind of the reason why they are the biggest in the game. Mantic on the other hand can ride on the coat tails of those that run before then - what is the 1st question that gets asked? - How do they scale to GW Skellies?".
1
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Post by: Ostrakon
InventionThirteen wrote:Imagine what a price DROP would do for their sales... SILLY LITTLE MEN
Probably not a whole lot.
I think they're marketing to people who don't really care how much the prices go up. Nerds who are so in love with the setting that they're addicted, or people who just have cash to burn.
I dunno about all the other situations, but at my LGS gamers come in 3 categories:
1) Already bought an army, doesn't really buy anything anymore (50%)
2) New players who are spending buttloads of cash on a new army. 40%
3) Fanatics buying a kit a week. 10%
1 isn't making GW any money anymore, and GW isn't going to make any effort to reach out to them.
2 is making them a buttload, and some of them will turn into 3s. New players don't care about how much things used to cost - they weren't around 'before' - so they get in regardless.
3 is always going to make them money regardless of any price increases
It's actually a pretty good method of them making money in the short term to just increase prices until people stop buying. It's quick, dirty, and pretty easy to implement
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Post by: Fateweaver
Yep.
It's why no name sodas are normally way cheaper than Coke or Pepsi products.
Frosttop Root Beer is 99 cents for a liter bottle. A&W is 2.29 at the supermarket (2.49 at the convenience stores around my parts). Frosttop IMO is as good as A&W but obviously Frosttop has nowhere near the advertising or recognition that A&W has. You are paying Pepsi for their advertising of their root beer product.
On the flip side of things Dr. Thunder tastes like gak compared to the real Dr. Pepper and it to is like 1/2 the price so cheaper isn't always better (like most wargaming minis I've seen that aren't GW). Automatically Appended Next Post: Ostrakon wrote:InventionThirteen wrote:Imagine what a price DROP would do for their sales... SILLY LITTLE MEN
Probably not a whole lot.
I think they're marketing to people who don't really care how much the prices go up. Nerds who are so in love with the setting that they're addicted, or people who just have cash to burn.
I dunno about all the other situations, but at my LGS gamers come in 3 categories:
1) Already bought an army, doesn't really buy anything anymore (50%)
2) New players who are spending buttloads of cash on a new army. 40%
3) Fanatics buying a kit a week. 10%
1 isn't making GW any money anymore, and GW isn't going to make any effort to reach out to them.
2 is making them a buttload, and some of them will turn into 3s. New players don't care about how much things used to cost - they weren't around 'before' - so they get in regardless.
3 is always going to make them money regardless of any price increases
It's actually a pretty good method of them making money in the short term to just increase prices until people stop buying. It's quick, dirty, and pretty easy to implement
That and with DE and Necrons, two armies/codeciies that need a total remake, right around the corner GW KNOWS it's price hike won't lose them sales. It'll hit before the DE come out but they'll just price accordingly. GW could price DE Warriors at $40/box and the Raider/Ravager kits at $60/box and they'll still fly off shelves. If I was to read all the posts by gamers excited that DE are out and either plan to start DE as their very first army, start them from scratch as a backup or 3rd or 4th or 8th army or replace their existing army with all new models, It'd take me a week to read them all (don't mean just on dakka but all wargaming sites on the net).
Not to mention not every 40k player in the world visits dakka or 40konline or Warseer. There are 12 of us that play at my local store. I am the ONLY one in the group who has ever set foot in a 40k/Fantasy gaming forum. My group is probably not the norm but I'm also trying to prove that the vocal majority opposed on Dakka aren't the majority of the worlds player base (though some posters have egos so high they act as if they speak for the entire world, even those that don't visit gaming forums.
24035
Post by: Ostrakon
Fateweaver wrote:Yep.
It's why no name sodas are normally way cheaper than Coke or Pepsi products.
Frosttop Root Beer is 99 cents for a liter bottle. A&W is 2.29 at the supermarket (2.49 at the convenience stores around my parts). Frosttop IMO is as good as A&W but obviously Frosttop has nowhere near the advertising or recognition that A&W has. You are paying Pepsi for their advertising of their root beer product.
On the flip side of things Dr. Thunder tastes like gak compared to the real Dr. Pepper and it to is like 1/2 the price so cheaper isn't always better (like most wargaming minis I've seen that aren't GW).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ostrakon wrote:InventionThirteen wrote:Imagine what a price DROP would do for their sales... SILLY LITTLE MEN
Probably not a whole lot.
I think they're marketing to people who don't really care how much the prices go up. Nerds who are so in love with the setting that they're addicted, or people who just have cash to burn.
I dunno about all the other situations, but at my LGS gamers come in 3 categories:
1) Already bought an army, doesn't really buy anything anymore (50%)
2) New players who are spending buttloads of cash on a new army. 40%
3) Fanatics buying a kit a week. 10%
1 isn't making GW any money anymore, and GW isn't going to make any effort to reach out to them.
2 is making them a buttload, and some of them will turn into 3s. New players don't care about how much things used to cost - they weren't around 'before' - so they get in regardless.
3 is always going to make them money regardless of any price increases
It's actually a pretty good method of them making money in the short term to just increase prices until people stop buying. It's quick, dirty, and pretty easy to implement
That and with DE and Necrons, two armies/codeciies that need a total remake, right around the corner GW KNOWS it's price hike won't lose them sales. It'll hit before the DE come out but they'll just price accordingly. GW could price DE Warriors at $40/box and the Raider/Ravager kits at $60/box and they'll still fly off shelves. If I was to read all the posts by gamers excited that DE are out and either plan to start DE as their very first army, start them from scratch as a backup or 3rd or 4th or 8th army or replace their existing army with all new models, It'd take me a week to read them all (don't mean just on dakka but all wargaming sites on the net).
Not to mention not every 40k player in the world visits dakka or 40konline or Warseer. There are 12 of us that play at my local store. I am the ONLY one in the group who has ever set foot in a 40k/Fantasy gaming forum. My group is probably not the norm but I'm also trying to prove that the vocal majority opposed on Dakka aren't the majority of the worlds player base (though some posters have egos so high they act as if they speak for the entire world, even those that don't visit gaming forums.
Sturgeon's Law.
Like 90% of the people on these forums neither understand basic business concepts, nor make any attempts to understand them. Same goes for basic balance stuff, the difference between "good" and "fun", etc. The same is true for pretty much any forum on any subject on the planet. I dunno what makes people so fething reticent, arguing about things they fail to understand on a fundamental level instead of spending the five minutes it would take to google it and get a basic idea of the concepts therein.
We live in an era where pretty much any information imaginable is a few clicks away, but people would still rather argue in willful ignorance.
27987
Post by: Surtur
Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
Haha, just like Apple is?
Are you serious? I'm not talking about Apple now, I'm talking about how they were a little over a decade ago. Apple was slithering along the bottom at under 3% marketshare after having a huge lead on everyone the previous decade. Apple was a joke. Steve Jobs was rehired as their CEO and then things got better, but you have to remember what happened before. Bad CEOs trying to protect the bottom line with reckless economics almost destroyed their own company.
24035
Post by: Ostrakon
Surtur wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
Haha, just like Apple is?
Are you serious? I'm not talking about Apple now, I'm talking about how they were a little over a decade ago. Apple was slithering along the bottom at under 3% marketshare after having a huge lead on everyone the previous decade. Apple was a joke. Steve Jobs was rehired as their CEO and then things got better, but you have to remember what happened before. Bad CEOs trying to protect the bottom line with reckless economics almost destroyed their own company.
But what is apple doing now?
Rereleasing the same tired tech to a bunch of fanboys who don't know better. And they're making a ton of money selling things at a huge profit margin even though their market share stopped increasing as much as it was a while ago.
The iPad is to apple what a marine release is to GW. Release the same goddamn product over and over again to fanboys who are too stupid to realize they're getting trolled by a corporation.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
Haha, just like Apple is?
Are you serious? I'm not talking about Apple now, I'm talking about how they were a little over a decade ago. Apple was slithering along the bottom at under 3% marketshare after having a huge lead on everyone the previous decade. Apple was a joke. Steve Jobs was rehired as their CEO and then things got better, but you have to remember what happened before. Bad CEOs trying to protect the bottom line with reckless economics almost destroyed their own company.
But what is apple doing now?
Rereleasing the same tired tech to a bunch of fanboys who don't know better. And they're making a ton of money selling things at a huge profit margin even though their market share stopped increasing as much as it was a while ago.
The iPad is to apple what a marine release is to GW. Release the same goddamn product over and over again to fanboys who are too stupid to realize they're getting trolled by a corporation.
Wow, I'm not even sure WHERE I should begin telling you how wrong you are. I'll let someone else do it.
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Post by: filbert
Not sure you could describe an iPod or an iPhone as 'tired tech'. Whether you like Apple or not, I don't think you can dispute that they were fairly revolutionary products when they were released.
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
Freakin' GW. ("Hello, Maelstrom Games? Hi, Tim the Biovore here.")
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Post by: Kroothawk
Ostrakon wrote:Just because I can comfortably play GW games doesn't mean I'm responsible for covering other peoples' overhead. Although what does that come to, an exra 20-30 bucks total extra? If you can't afford that, quit now and get your finances in order before you waste any more money on plastic models.
The main and almost exclusive target customer group are teens between 14 and 18. Telling them to get a job is missing the point.
GW told veterans that they are not valued customers. Now they tell their target customers that they are not valued customers.
Raising introductory products like starter sets and Codices/army books 15% each year is economical suicide.
GW may be a public company, but sadly GW's stock holders don't punish proven mismanagement for years. Has to do with the composition of the stock holders, some of them not selling under any circumstances like Tim Kirby.
Fateweaver wrote: Far as I know Mantic doesn't have it's own gaming stores nor are they spending as much on advertising as GW.
If Mantic has ever made one ad, they spend more on advertising than GW in 10 years. All current ads involving GW IP are made by other companies, not GW. Sad but true. And fundamental for the shrinking number of customers and constantly decreasing sales.
rocklord2004 wrote:I'm working on a Tyranid army. I will go ahead and buy models and when the price hike happens you can cover the change for what I still need at that point. After all its just a small increse for the exact same product. Don't worry though, I should only need a couple boxes of gaunts and a fex or 2 at that point.
Fortunately, the horde boxes for Tyranids keep their current price this year. And they are still abundant on ebay.
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Post by: Fateweaver
GW is only pushing away those people who don't matter to them, the ones who were probably on the verge of being broke but had to buy into plastic crack and now suddenly can't afford to keep playing.
For every veteran that stops buying 10 more new customers enter the hobby (a fake number but it's probably more accurate than any other number anyone can come up with). 5 of them will probably become loyal and stick with GW through thick and thin. So right there GW have gained way more than they've lost as the vet probably spent $50/year whereas those 5 new ones will spend a combined $300-500/month.
How does GW lose again?
Really, Google search business tactics and whatnot and in 5 minutes you'll see their business model is no different than any other "shareholder" company in the world.
18410
Post by: filbert
Fateweaver wrote:GW is only pushing away those people who don't matter to them, the ones who were probably on the verge of being broke but had to buy into plastic crack and now suddenly can't afford to keep playing.
For every veteran that stops buying 10 more new customers enter the hobby (a fake number but it's probably more accurate than any other number anyone can come up with). 5 of them will probably become loyal and stick with GW through thick and thin. So right there GW have gained way more than they've lost as the vet probably spent $50/year whereas those 5 new ones will spend a combined $300-500/month.
How does GW lose again?
Really, Google search business tactics and whatnot and in 5 minutes you'll see their business model is no different than any other "shareholder" company in the world.
I'm sorry but this is rubbish - are you seriously suggesting that losing someone like me, for example, who spends much, much more in a year than these mythical 10 new customers ever will, won't hurt GW? It's been said before and bears repeating; GW are pushing away the lifeblood of their business; not the 10 - 15 demographic, but the core of veteran gamers who have much more disposable income and spending power.
24035
Post by: Ostrakon
Scottywan82 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:Ostrakon wrote:Surtur wrote:I think you're missing the point that they're making. It's not the fact that the raise is £2.50 (~$4.00 for us Americans). It's the fact that the price hikes have little connection to inflation and are inappropriate for the current economy. They already made a bold effort to sell more Fantasy minis with 8th and then they're going to couple it with a price hike. The hobby is expensive. It's not budgeting that's the problem, but continual justification of a purchase. You wouldn't but a DVD for $50 unless they put in a gaggle of extra features and even then, it appeals to few people. It's just that it seems that GW continues to push away people with higher prices. I understand they're a niche company and rely on their niche, but this tactic they're using has been proven as extremely harmful to market share. Apple did this exact thing (raise prices, fall back to more devoted customers) again and again when faced with Windows' growing market share and forced themselves into a tiny market share in the 90s. GW will regret this tactic soon.
Haha, just like Apple is?
Are you serious? I'm not talking about Apple now, I'm talking about how they were a little over a decade ago. Apple was slithering along the bottom at under 3% marketshare after having a huge lead on everyone the previous decade. Apple was a joke. Steve Jobs was rehired as their CEO and then things got better, but you have to remember what happened before. Bad CEOs trying to protect the bottom line with reckless economics almost destroyed their own company.
But what is apple doing now?
Rereleasing the same tired tech to a bunch of fanboys who don't know better. And they're making a ton of money selling things at a huge profit margin even though their market share stopped increasing as much as it was a while ago.
The iPad is to apple what a marine release is to GW. Release the same goddamn product over and over again to fanboys who are too stupid to realize they're getting trolled by a corporation.
Wow, I'm not even sure WHERE I should begin telling you how wrong you are. I'll let someone else do it.
Oh, please do. It'll be hilarious.
Not sure you could describe an iPod or an iPhone as 'tired tech'. Whether you like Apple or not, I don't think you can dispute that they were fairly revolutionary products when they were released.
All the ipod ever was was an extremely well-marketed mp3 player that later got a really cool multitouch screen. Oh, and then they slapped a phone into it.
That's cool. It's not revolutionary. It's not like everyone is now making a proprietary phone with a multitouch interface now. The people who were into that sort of thing got it, and then interest kind of died off for non apple fanboys. Hell, Android phones have already outsold iphones, and they haven't even been out two years. And the concept of having a common OS on as many smartphones across different serviced providers and hardware is far more revolutionary for the industry than anything Apple has done recently.
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Post by: gearheadwhat
Okay, I've got a quick question about IG stuff here...
The cadians got split into two boxes of 10 a while ago.
Right now the current list price is 12 pounds, but now it will be 15 pounds. I live in the US and was just starting to get back into a guard army, since I sold mine off years ago before entering the service...
Anyhow, I just did a conversion, and 15 pounds puts it at 22 us dollars. But that's what I'm already paying for a squad of 10 men. So unless I did something wrong, how much am I going to have to pay for basic 10 cadian guardsmen after this price hike?
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Post by: Fateweaver
Funny how in the past 2 years with every price hike they've made and the dozens of posters who say they'll quit the hobby that GW's revenue has been increasing.
Oh that's right. Dakka does not equal the global player base. Therefore your example is as flawed as mine because you can't possibly know the ratio of lost veterans to new gamers as not everyone who plays Fantasy/40k resides on Dakka or Warseer or BoLS.
Also, it's not the 10-15year olds doing the actual buying, it's the PARENTS of the 10-15 year olds in most cases, parents who probably have a lot more disposable income than you or I do or who will break themselves financially to spoil their brats.
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Post by: Grim.Badger
Having read through their last annual report, I can say with authority that GW make a silly amount of money through 3rd party sellers, much more % profit than through their own stores. The reason that they keep their own stores open is to promote the brand and to keep volume sales up as they sell a greater volume through their own stores which ensures cash flow (which is actually just as important as raw profit).
I'm fairly certain that they are going somewhere with at least some of these price rises, imo they have decided what price the models will be and are bulking them up every year - when they reach their "ideal" price they will probably change to a more gradual increase to stay ahead of inflation. The Blood Angels and Minotaurs show us where they are heading, so expect Land Raiders to reach at least £45 (God only know how much the Shadowsword/Stompa will cost)
On a personal note, I'm peeved. I only started playing again in 2008, and since then the Space Marine commander has gone from £10 to £15 and Tactical squads have gone from £18 to £22.50 
£15 for a friggin plastic dude who isn't even that impressive!
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
gearheadwhat wrote:Okay, I've got a quick question about IG stuff here...
The cadians got split into two boxes of 10 a while ago.
Right now the current list price is 12 pounds, but now it will be 15 pounds. I live in the US and was just starting to get back into a guard army, since I sold mine off years ago before entering the service...
Anyhow, I just did a conversion, and 15 pounds puts it at 22 us dollars. But that's what I'm already paying for a squad of 10 men. So unless I did something wrong, how much am I going to have to pay for basic 10 cadian guardsmen after this price hike?
The UK price won't affect the US. According to one of the US posters who runs a store he was sent a notice by GW that there will be a price hike in the US sometime this summer. Right now not even he (the shop owner) knows what the new US prices will be, so until the US price hike your Cadians will stay $22.50 until such time as the US price goes up (which could take affect the same day).
Know what's humorous about all this? I see a few posters that will only start ordering from their FLGS from now on (though I know most do anyway as it's sensible). GW does still make money on stuff sold to the FLGS so by increasing the amount of stuff ordered through the FLGS you are making GW that much fatter and giving them even more reason to hike prices. Of course we all know a boycott won't work. The one back in January was a fail so epic even Godzilla face-palmed.
28733
Post by: gearheadwhat
Fateweaver wrote:
The UK price won't affect the US. According to one of the US posters who runs a store he was sent a notice by GW that there will be a price hike in the US sometime this summer. Right now not even he (the shop owner) knows what the new US prices will be.
Thanks for the quick reply. I really appreciate it. So I shouldn't worry too much (yet) about any increase over on my side of the seas then, but maybe later this year?
Anyhow, thanks for answering my question 
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Fateweaver wrote:Funny how in the past 2 years with every price hike they've made and the dozens of posters who say they'll quit the hobby that GW's revenue has been increasing.
Read the financial reports again. Every year the prices are raised by about 15%, every year the sales revenue decreases or stays stagnant at best -> 15% less products sold each year for several years. It's firing people, closing even more stores, shutting down departments like BI and the success by others like Dawn of War and Dark Heresy (formerly BI  ) that gives them some short sighted profits.
And children don't get 15% more money each year, so raising the introductory product prices by that amount will drive the last one of them to get computer games or consoles instead: So much cheaper, so much more plug and play.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Earlier Mikhaila said his rep sent him a notice of a price increase but I don't recall a specific date yet.
Obviously if you ordered from the UK (perhaps Maelstrom or something) then the price hike would effect you as the exchange rate would still be factored in but so long as you buy in the US the UK hike won't affect our prices.
28733
Post by: gearheadwhat
Okay. That's good to know. So it probably won't affect things like the war store either then I assume?
Alas, either way, GW is the evil empire
12313
Post by: Ouze
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ostrakon, I'm going to have to politely disagree.
During your continued and persistent justification of 'it's only 10%', you've failed to factor that this isn't the only recent price increase.
GW have been pushing and pushing the prices for years.
Explain why from Mantic Games, I can get the following undead for £22.50
# 1 x Undead Skeleton Regiment (20 Figures with Command Group)
# 1 x Undead Revenant Regiment (20 Figures with Command Group)
# 1 x Ghoul Troop (10 Figures)
# 1 x Balefire Catapult Frame
# 1 x Catapult Crew Frame (2 FIgures)
# 6 x Undead Sticker Sheets
# 2 x Undead Guide/Poster
# 52 x 20mm square Bases
# 2 x 48mm Mantic Case with protective foam
When, from Games Workshop, you'd need to spend £24 just to get:
10 x ghouls
10 x skeletons
Not to defend GWS, but it should be mentioned
1.) The Mantic offer as listed is actually £30, not £22.50 - a 30% difference.
2.) The Mantic product doesn't actually exist yet - it's still a pre-order. It would be more fair to compare to the (shipping) elven warhost.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Kroothawk wrote:Fateweaver wrote:Funny how in the past 2 years with every price hike they've made and the dozens of posters who say they'll quit the hobby that GW's revenue has been increasing.
Read the financial reports again. Every year the prices are raised by about 15%, every year the sales revenue decreases or stays stagnant at best -> 15% less products sold each year for several years. It's firing people, closing even more stores, shutting down departments like BI and the success by others like Dawn of War that gives them some short sighted profits.
And children don't get 15% more money each year, so raising the introductory product prices by that amount will drive the last one of them to get computer games or consoles instead: So much cheaper, so much more plug and play.
Sales were down but revenue was up. The revenue increase is the important number. If a company is making money it doesn't matter how much sales are down. It's when sales drop and revenue drops that sales start to become an issue.
Again, it's not mostly children's allowances buying 40K. It's mom and dad spoiling their kid. How do you know kids don't get an extra 15% per year? Ever see a show called "My Sweet Sixteen?" These spoiled brats are showcased getting thrown "sweet 16" parties that cost in the 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars. Not saying every kid who gets into 40k gets that kind of privilege but you are delusional if you think there aren't parents out there who have spent more money than they have or need to to keep little Billy happy.
If you think you can't afford GW anymore get out. It's not the end of the world if you have to stop buying little toy soldiers for a while or indefinitely. I gave up paintball because of expense. I'm fine with that. I know if my financial situation improves before I'm too old and crippled to play again I'll get back into it, even though I know it'll cost me more than it did when I quit 5 years ago. That's life, that's how free enterprise works and that's how economics works.
If GW goes bellyup by the end of the fiscal year you can say "I told you so". Until then GW's numbers prove all these " GW are on the verge of collapse" and " GW can't afford to lose it's veteran players" proclamations are fallacy. Unless they are doctoring their reports those 2 proclamations are just knee jerk reactions by pissed off nerds who might have to give it up, give up smoking or get a 2nd job. Life is full of tough choices. Hobbies should not be weighed in amongst those tough choices.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
I think its funny that people are equating legitimate issues about price rises with being too poor to play and being fiscal idiots.
I am choosing not to buy GW miniature product because of their price hikes and am ordering other companies product and games systems instead
My unwillingness to pay GW's inflated prices is not a reflection on my financial status,nor anyone elses high or low income. Too much is too much.
Also, comments that players should drop out of 'a hobby they can't afford' are just naive and point to brainwashing on the part of GW. Like other posters I am still in the hobby, with other systems as well as GW made.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Woo-hoo, the value of my collection increases!!!
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
But whining about something every company does and not quitting the GW hobby is just whining for the sake of whining.
If your child put his hand on a hot burner and then bitched about the pain of it and then kept doing it all the time even knowing it hurts wouldn't you tell him it'd be smart to stop doing that? Wouldn't you HOPE he'd quit doing it on his own? Or would you expect him to blame the burner for being hot?
Telling people to quit if they can't afford is not brain washing by GW. It's being a realist. If you can't afford to do something you shouldn't do it.
If you went and borrowed money to buy a Lamborghini and the bank agreed and you knew that to ask for the loan would mean eating rice and bread and having to panhandle for gas for your Lamborghini would you blame the manufacturer of the car for your stupidity or would you blame yourself for being stupid enough to buy something you can't afford.
Telling me and others that we are brainwashed by GW because we tell you to quit what you can't afford is naive. I can't afford to go drinking 7 nights a week so should I boycott the bars for their prices or should I change my financial situation to allow me to go to the bars 7 nights a week?
24411
Post by: -=Scar=-
I HATE THIS!!!
8742
Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Let's be clear.
Because there seems to be a disconnect here. I can afford this, many who are voicing their annoyance with the price can afford it.
I am a professional, married with no kids. I have a reasonable disposable income to spend on luxury goods.
The reason many of us are annoyed with GW is that the figures are exceeding their perceived worth to us.
As I said, more of my budget for 'fun stuffs' will end up going on minis from other companies and more to the fishtanks.
All this 'if you don't like the heat' commentary is bollocks.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
I love it.
I also love paying whatever GW asks of me for my hobby that I only spend money on to pass the time.
Hell, I'll even sometimes order things direct from GW. I even buy WD on occasion!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I wasn't buying $100 worth of GW stuff a month and I had a good job I'd be spending around 4x's that to play paintball.
Gold star for me.
22619
Post by: inmygravenimage
-=Scar=- wrote:I HATE THIS!!!
The price hike or the "free exchange of ideas"? Or a little from column a, a little from column b?
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Let's be clear.
Because there seems to be a disconnect here. I can afford this, many who are voicing their annoyance with the price can afford it.
I am a professional, married with no kids. I have a reasonable disposable income to spend on luxury goods.
The reason many of us are annoyed with GW is that the figures are exceeding their perceived worth to us.
As I said, more of my budget for 'fun stuffs' will end up going on minis from other companies and more to the fishtanks.
All this 'if you don't like the heat' commentary is bollocks.
Good on you MGS. I'm not against people doing what they want.
Trying to tell us how GW should run it's business and comparing them to no-name companies that NOBODY outside of the interwebs would hear about is just as bullheaded and egotistical as us telling gamers if they don't like the prices quit.
The 10-15 year old targets don't care how much something cost 5 years or 10 years ago (as obviously a 10yo was just an infant, perhaps even a fetus back then). How many parents, who aren't in the hobby themselves or paying attention to pricing history, really remember that 9 months ago this box cost this much and now it's this much? Hell, even I don't recall how much a lot of things in my own personal army costed 12 months ago. I have SOME inkling but mostly I'd give a wrong answer on a quiz about it.
We are in an age where 12yo's have iPhones and Androids. Any parent willing to spend $200 on a phone plus monthly for minutes just so they can make sure their kids are cool (let's face it, it's why parents buy the cell phones for kids) is not going to have any qualms about spending $100/month or more so little Billy can be out of mom and dads hair for a while or because other kids his age are doing it and mom and dad want him to fit in (though wanting your son to fit in with sex starved, odoriferous nerds is not something I'd want for my kids... lol).
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Post by: Osbad
Fateweaver wrote:The latest financial report disputes your claim that GW revenue has dropped. In fact 2k9 actually saw GW's revenue INCREASE for the first time in a decade.
You need to read the financial report a bit more closely mate. What it said was the overall revenue had increased, *but only because of exchange rate gains from the 25% collapse in the value of sterling relative to the $ and the Euro, and also licence revenue.*
In other words, once you took out the effect of exchange rate movements, inflation, and revenue from licences it indicated that yet again the revenue from sales of GW miniatures had gone down. Not up.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
Fateweaver wrote:But whining about something every company does and not quitting the GW hobby is just whining for the sake of whining.
If your child put his hand on a hot burner and then bitched about the pain of it and then kept doing it all the time even knowing it hurts wouldn't you tell him it'd be smart to stop doing that? Wouldn't you HOPE he'd quit doing it on his own? Or would you expect him to blame the burner for being hot?
Telling people to quit if they can't afford is not brain washing by GW. It's being a realist. If you can't afford to do something you shouldn't do it.
If you went and borrowed money to buy a Lamborghini and the bank agreed and you knew that to ask for the loan would mean eating rice and bread and having to panhandle for gas for your Lamborghini would you blame the manufacturer of the car for your stupidity or would you blame yourself for being stupid enough to buy something you can't afford.
Telling me and others that we are brainwashed by GW because we tell you to quit what you can't afford is naive. I can't afford to go drinking 7 nights a week so should I boycott the bars for their prices or should I change my financial situation to allow me to go to the bars 7 nights a week?
I just think that comments that make out that people are poor because they chose not to pay for GW product are ignorant.
I can pay for GW product, I choose not to because they do not offer me enough value to justify their prices.
oh @ MGS got there first!
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
So the craptastic economy had nothing to do with loss of sales at all?
I'm sure the millions unemployed in GB are still spending $300/month on Warhammer.
Oh wait, they probably aren't. Funny that.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
Fateweaver wrote:So the craptastic economy had nothing to do with loss of sales at all?
I'm sure the millions unemployed in GB are still spending $300/month on Warhammer.
Oh wait, they probably aren't. Funny that.
But I bet lot of them are spending their money on other hobby and gaming products.
Funny that.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Mr. Burning wrote:Fateweaver wrote:But whining about something every company does and not quitting the GW hobby is just whining for the sake of whining.
If your child put his hand on a hot burner and then bitched about the pain of it and then kept doing it all the time even knowing it hurts wouldn't you tell him it'd be smart to stop doing that? Wouldn't you HOPE he'd quit doing it on his own? Or would you expect him to blame the burner for being hot?
Telling people to quit if they can't afford is not brain washing by GW. It's being a realist. If you can't afford to do something you shouldn't do it.
If you went and borrowed money to buy a Lamborghini and the bank agreed and you knew that to ask for the loan would mean eating rice and bread and having to panhandle for gas for your Lamborghini would you blame the manufacturer of the car for your stupidity or would you blame yourself for being stupid enough to buy something you can't afford.
Telling me and others that we are brainwashed by GW because we tell you to quit what you can't afford is naive. I can't afford to go drinking 7 nights a week so should I boycott the bars for their prices or should I change my financial situation to allow me to go to the bars 7 nights a week?
I just think that comments that make out that people are poor because they chose not to pay for GW product are ignorant.
I can pay for GW product, I choose not to because they do not offer me enough value to justify their prices.
oh @ MGS got there first!
Saying things like "I can't afford it" or "I must scrimp and cut out other things to afford it" tells me that you truly CAN'T afford it, not that you don't want to. When someone tells me they can't afford something I'm going to assume it's because they don't have the income. When someone tells me "It's not worth it to me" that tells me they could afford it if they wanted to but they don't.
Most of the ones bitching are saying that they won't be able to afford it. That tells me that their income is not able to support the hobby anymore. That means they should quit.
I'm not saying you aren't free to not buy on principle or value reasons but when someone tells me they can't afford it primarily based on income then I will tell them to quit as it's probably better for them that they do.
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Post by: Osbad
Fateweaver wrote:The 10-15 year old targets don't care how much something cost 5 years or 10 years ago (as obviously a 10yo was just an infant, perhaps even a fetus back then). How many parents, who aren't in the hobby themselves or paying attention to pricing history, really remember that 9 months ago this box cost this much and now it's this much? Hell, even I don't recall how much a lot of things in my own personal army costed 12 months ago. I have SOME inkling but mostly I'd give a wrong answer on a quiz about it.
All of which is of course totally irrelevant. I'll give an example of for why:
Overheard conversation between Redshirt and a 10 year-old and his mum from a couple of years back:
{Having played the intro game, that of course the 10 year-old had won}
Mum: He enjoyed that, so how much does all this cost then?
Redshirt: Well the best way to get started is to buy the introductory set, you get a ton of models and some paint and all the rules you need.
Mum: So is that all he needs? What about all these other boxes around the place? What are they for?
Redshirt: Well, once he's got all those made up he'll want to build a bigger army so he can play bigger games.
Mum: OK, so lets have a look at those things then.
{Redshirt picks up Predator box and shows it to Mum}
Kid: Wow! That looks fantastic!
Mum: So how much is the that big box and these tanks and things?
{Redshirt says price}
Mum: OK, that's probably a bit much for your pocket money isn't it? We'll maybe think of it for Christmas.
{ exeunt: Mum and crying 10 year-old}
Now, of course I have also seen Mums walk in and dump £300 over the counter for their little darlings.
However, over the course of time as the relative values of price of product vs disposable income of parents shifts, which response are GW likely to see more of? Inevitably there will be more "well, we'll maybe come back later" responses than "here's my wallet, take what you like as long as Timmy is happy" ones!
An increase in prices can only have one outcome - lower demand. An invariable law of ecomics. Whether it results in less profit or more profit depends on other variables. However in the face of declining real incomes and ongoing hard economic times (20% VAT any time soon?), I'm thinking GW are taking one heck of a risk with such steep price rises.
Not of course that I have any personal interest in this as I haven't bought a new GW model for myself in 3 years, and haven't bought any significant quantity for myself in over 5.
I just find it amusing that somehow GW believe their special "niche" protects them from the inevitable laws of market economics!
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Fateweaver wrote:
Good on you MGS. I'm not against people doing what they want.
Trying to tell us how GW should run it's business and comparing them to no-name companies that NOBODY outside of the interwebs would hear about is just as bullheaded and egotistical as us telling gamers if they don't like the prices quit.
The 10-15 year old targets don't care how much something cost 5 years or 10 years ago (as obviously a 10yo was just an infant, perhaps even a fetus back then). How many parents, who aren't in the hobby themselves or paying attention to pricing history, really remember that 9 months ago this box cost this much and now it's this much? Hell, even I don't recall how much a lot of things in my own personal army costed 12 months ago. I have SOME inkling but mostly I'd give a wrong answer on a quiz about it.
We are in an age where 12yo's have iPhones and Androids. Any parent willing to spend $200 on a phone plus monthly for minutes just so they can make sure their kids are cool (let's face it, it's why parents buy the cell phones for kids) is not going to have any qualms about spending $100/month or more so little Billy can be out of mom and dads hair for a while or because other kids his age are doing it and mom and dad want him to fit in (though wanting your son to fit in with sex starved, odoriferous nerds is not something I'd want for my kids...lol).
I've been considering your second (and fairly valid) point for some time, that I'm now in my early 30s and sounding like the old 'we could go to the movies, get a fish n chip supper and bus fare for the journey home, all for 20p (cents...etc)' stereotype. There will be parents who pay that money and won't sniff at it. But this must ultimately be a drying pool of fish, kids today are also signing up to WoW subscriptions, no messy modelling, no tables occupied on weekends, no mini bits everywhere, just plug n play.
Now, your first point. Me or anyone else 'daring' to tell a company how to do things...
I have been a customer of the company for 21 years. I have put a considerable amount their way over the course of that time. I am a complaint adjudicator for a multinational insurance firm that deals with the largest companies on earth. I ensure fair outcomes for customers companies, IFAs, broker companies and individual claimants in keeping with international and national law and maintainence of the corporation's good will and reputation. I have a fairly keen understanding of how a company should be interacting with it's paying customer. If you somehow reached a conclusion that a company, even a megacorp (which, working in Group Insurance, I can assure you, GW really aren't) can eternally ignore it's customer feedback then you're foolish. Actively behaving in the hostile fashion this company continues to do is not healthy.
What GW lacks is serious rivals, it's the big fish in a bloody tiny pond. The sooner more companies get their gak together and produce 28mm multi part plastics the sooner we'll see competition and that's what's killing GW, the lack of a decent free market to make it compete. It's fat, lazy and arrogant and it's dedicated and loyal players deserve better than the year on year grinding to their testes that they currently receive with a message that they should count themselves lucky...
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Fateweaver wrote:
Saying things like "I can't afford it" or "I must scrimp and cut out other things to afford it" tells me that you truly CAN'T afford it, not that you don't want to. When someone tells me they can't afford something I'm going to assume it's because they don't have the income. When someone tells me "It's not worth it to me" that tells me they could afford it if they wanted to but they don't.
Most of the ones bitching are saying that they won't be able to afford it. That tells me that their income is not able to support the hobby anymore. That means they should quit.
I'm not saying you aren't free to not buy on principle or value reasons but when someone tells me they can't afford it primarily based on income then I will tell them to quit as it's probably better for them that they do.
Fair enough.
But you must also see that if people can't afford GW product but can get their gaming fix, at a reduced price elsewhere, that GW are doing something wrong in letting the their market share get screwed?
I agree with price rises, on one level they make it easier to absorb losses(in this case to GW's sales) and drives turnover but to have a practice of raising prices on sometime spurious grounds (in the case of plastic=metal) without adding any value to the proposition just makes any increase harder to swallow.
edit: pointless last paragraph. 
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Post by: Kroothawk
Fateweaver wrote:Sales were down but revenue was up. The revenue increase is the important number. If a company is making money it doesn't matter how much sales are down. It's when sales drop and revenue drops that sales start to become an issue.
Again, it's not mostly children's allowances buying 40K. It's mom and dad spoiling their kid. How do you know kids don't get an extra 15% per year? Ever see a show called "My Sweet Sixteen?" These spoiled brats are showcased getting thrown "sweet 16" parties that cost in the 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars.
We told you that GW is losing customers by every price hike. You said that because of a minimal revenue rise (was it 0.25%?) in one year this was not true. We told you that sales revenue declines for years so 15% less sold products per year. You say that's okay as long as they make money selling their infrastructure. We could go on pointing out that even total revenues are going down for years with only rare exceptions. You will probably answer that's okay as long as some millionaire is willing to pay 5 million dollars for one plastic miniature and saying that you know a TV-show featuring a super-rich child.
Seems that for you there are only two groups of customers: people that pay every  price and poor losers that should buzz off at once. I will quit this pointless argument now.
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Post by: Wolf
Well, as long as prices don't increase on forgeworld and I can get my Dkok army sorted, I'll be happy.
And I definitely wont be buying stuff from GW now, I haven't minded their price increases too much up until now Looks like I'm out of buying from GW
Maybe I should invest in more Battlestar Galactica ships for my fleet instead.
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Post by: Hellfury
Gah its a shame this discussion turned out to be so circular.
On the one side you have:
"You shouldn't be playing in the first place if you think 10-15% price increase every year for the past decade is too much to spend."
On the other hand you have:
"I am quite comfortable financially, but can no longer justify GW products as being worth their cost the company charges versus the amount of enjoyment I glean from it"
The GW apologists have a point, but also fail to see the point of the other side who simply have had enough and have every right to voice their opinions. Sadly, the apologists enter circular logic and the discussion ceased.
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Post by: Surtur
inmygravenimage wrote:-=Scar=- wrote:I HATE THIS!!!
The price hike or the "free exchange of ideas"? Or a little from column a, a little from column b?
Cept it's not a free exchange of ideas. People from side A make a statement and people from side B misinterpret/ignore said statement and harass side A. Lots of strawman arguments get posted and no ground is gained. Let's not forget, we're all on a forum about Warhammer, aka we're all in the same boat. We all play this game. We've all invested money and time into this game. Try to not harass the other side.
If you look at any other product on the market, the tendency for price is to go down. Not up. Look at DVDs. You can get them for 5 bucks at Walmart. You can get new releases for like $15-20. Back when DVDs were new, they used to be what $30? Despite inflation, little to no change in material usage the price went down. Video games' price follows a similar suit. They start at $60 and go down after the investment has been made back. Clothes have gone down. Food has gone down. Why is it that plastic miniatures should be immune to such laws of economics?
Assume your budget allows for $50 of space marines a week (or month what ever you will). Assume a box of 10 space marines costs $15 to make and is sold at it's current $35 price. They make a profit of $20. Say it gets repriced to $25. They now only make $10, but as a consequence your budget allows for you to buy 2 allowing them to sill make a profit of $20. Also, the lower price makes the product more desirable as more people are able to afford it as the price better suits their budget and concept of value. If your budget is only $35, it becomes questionable as to whether to price it at 25 or 35 because you would have to attract a certain number of people to balance out the loss of profit even with the $25 price allowing them to buy 2 every 2-3 weeks. If your budget is only 25, then again it becomes more profitable to price at $25 as 35 will make you purchase every other week or 2.
That is why people are angry and baffled! They seem to only look at profit per unit, not over all sales and profit. They want to see increased revenue which is fine, but decreasing sales and increasing profit per unit only stagnates their income and drives potential customers away with high costs. If I handed you a box of 10 space marines, told you they come unpainted, unassembled and cost $40 (about how much they'll cost with the price increase) and you had no previous experience with the hobby, you wouldn't even consider it. Not everyone can afford it. Putting up labels like "you're too poor to wargame" isn't acceptable by any standard. Why not just say "you are too poor to have fun?" If you think everyone will spoil their child mercilessly, think again. Those with poor reputation stand out far more than those with good. Yes there are parents who will go in and buy their children everything, but they are a small percentage of parents. The worst part is how GW may end up doing to the rest of the wargame industry. With their high profile stores they will give many people a first impression of what it is to be a wargamer.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Le Grognard wrote:People would ask at the HC why it was so expensive to get into the hobby. Our regional manager told us to inform them that, "this is a luxury hobby, and we are the Porche of miniature gaming".
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Post by: frgsinwntr
JOHIRA wrote:Le Poste Double
FUll of win
20079
Post by: Gorechild
£20 for 6 fire dragons?! Thats a joke!
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Ostrakon wrote:rocklord2004 wrote:Very well Ostrakon since you seem to think 10% of something is no big deal. I'm working on a Tyranid army. I will go ahead and buy models and when the price hike happens you can cover the change for what I still need at that point. After all its just a small increse for the exact same product. Don't worry though, I should only need a couple boxes of gaunts and a fex or 2 at that point. Not much investment on your part to prove yourself right. Or you could just admit that some people have to scrimp and save for a hobby they enjoy and any price increase makes it that much harder for them to get things. Poor people need hobbies too and playing with rocks and marbles all day just won't cut it.
Just because I can comfortably play GW games doesn't mean I'm responsible for covering other peoples' overhead. Although what does that come to, an exra 20-30 bucks total extra? If you can't afford that, quit now and get your finances in order before you waste any more money on plastic models.
If you have to "scrimp and save" for a hobby, then you fail at basic financial prioritization. Hobbies are what you do with disposable income. 40k and WFB are very demanding games financially. If you don't have enough disposable income to comfortably buy models, prices going up 10 or even 50% doesn't change the fact that the game is fantastically unsuited to your income anyway. It's like people who buy expensive, problematic Mercedes when they can barely afford their rent, and complain about the cost to do basic maintenance and fix it up when it inevitably breaks down.
As I mentioned earlier £2.50 on top of £20 isn't a big deal in itself. You ask why it should make a difference, anyone who "can't afford" to pay the extra £2.50 when they are currently paying £20 shouldn't be buying stuff in the first place. This is a patronising argument, all customers will draw the line somewhere. If prices increase in smallish incremental amounts then you could always say "but you were prepared to pay all that before, why not a tiny bit more now?". But look at the long term, stuff like Catachans have gone from £10 for 20 to £15 for 10, that's a 200% increase of 50p to £1.50 per figure. It's always been small increases a bit at a time but as others have pointed out, it's not 10%, it's 10% again and again. Somewhere along the line people will call it a day, but you'll always be there to say "but they've only gone up a little bit and you were happy to pay for them before, what's the big deal?"
People draw the line somewhere. It's not that the extra £2.50 on top of £20 suddenly means they can't 'scrimp and save' to get the amount, it's simply that it's the last straw, a wake up call so that they don't see the value for money in it. Years ago when my dad was trying to give up cigarettes he tried several times, but what gave him that extra push? It was when a pack of fags went up to £1 a pack. He stopped virtually overnight.
This is why I wonder about the wisdom of putting up the price of £20 boxes to £22.50. Before you just handed over a £20 note, but now you'll have to scrabble around for change to add on top, Or worse you get into the habit of handing over £30 and getting a handful of change back. Yeah it's only £2.50 but I'm sure that psychologically this isn't a good sales approach because it draws attention to the high costs, and increasing costs, of what they are spending.
Your other logic seems to hang on the belief that if you can afford something people will pay for it. Well that is just not true, even the richest people want to get value for money. Just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you're happy to be fleeced. Just because someone can afford to sink an extra few hundred pounds a year into something doesn't mean they will be happy to. Equally, someone may have a fixed amount they are happy to sink into their hobby, they may not be pleased to see that the return they get on that is shrinking all the time.
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Post by: Ixquic
JOHIRA wrote:Le Grognard wrote:People would ask at the HC why it was so expensive to get into the hobby. Our regional manager told us to inform them that, "this is a luxury hobby, and we are the Porche of miniature gaming".
When Games Workshop models look like this and their rules aren't full of holes then they can call themselves the Porche of gaming or whatever ridiculous term they need to justify their exorbitant prices.
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Post by: inmygravenimage
Surtur wrote:inmygravenimage wrote:-=Scar=- wrote:I HATE THIS!!!
The price hike or the "free exchange of ideas"? Or a little from column a, a little from column b?
Cept it's not a free exchange of ideas. People from side A make a statement and people from side B misinterpret/ignore said statement and harass side A.
Hence the inverted commas.
We've all invested money and time into this game. Try to not harass the other side.
Well, unless it's with angry painted plastic, that is 
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
These price rises could, of course, just be for independent stockists .
Regardless of what 'Sphere has placed on their site about RRP increases. It is unusual of GW not to publicy announce shifts on pricing, with announcements coming in White Dwarf and the website.
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Post by: Gargskull
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Let's be clear.
Because there seems to be a disconnect here. I can afford this, many who are voicing their annoyance with the price can afford it.
I am a professional, married with no kids. I have a reasonable disposable income to spend on luxury goods.
The reason many of us are annoyed with GW is that the figures are exceeding their perceived worth to us.
As I said, more of my budget for 'fun stuffs' will end up going on minis from other companies and more to the fishtanks.
All this 'if you don't like the heat' commentary is bollocks.
Completely agree and it's something that the "considerably richer then thou" folk don't seem to want to address, this is about what we think the models are worth not whether or not we can afford them. I like their stuff a lot and I can afford it but it gets harder and harder to feel like I'm getting my money's worth out of almost anything they sell and that tends to suck all the fun all out if it.
Isn't that what we're here for? Be it for the modeling, the painting or the gaming, because it's fun. If it's not fun why would we bother, GW are slowly killing the hobby for me and many others.
I won't quit just yet because I play orks so I can stick my finger up at their new release videogame priced battlewagon and go to a boot sale to find something dirt cheap to use instead. But that isn't an option for most GW fans and I think that's going to lead nicely into the other big issue namely GW's competition or the severe lack of it...
MeanGreenStompa wrote:What GW lacks is serious rivals, it's the big fish in a bloody tiny pond. The sooner more companies get their gak together and produce 28mm multi part plastics the sooner we'll see competition and that's what's killing GW, the lack of a decent free market to make it compete. It's fat, lazy and arrogant and it's dedicated and loyal players deserve better than the year on year grinding to their testes that they currently receive with a message that they should count themselves lucky...
Well said, GW are a law unto themselves and that really has to change. I can think of no other company that has it all their own way like they do.
It is changing already, we have Mantic now who are making some lovely and much cheaper models for several fantasy armies but Fantasy is a very different kettle of fish from 40k.
GW can sue for very few IP infringements where Fantasy is concerned, other companies can churn out as many skeletons, dwarfs and elves etc as they want and they should. People want them and they're easy to do with a ready made market.
40k however is much more difficult, most if not all of it is unique to GW and (for a quick aside) that's 40k's real appeal I think, it's why it's so popular. Every unit has a unique and well defined look from other games and is why rival game struggle to succeed.
But getting back to the issue at hand, namely of real competition for model sales, well war games factory are just about to launch their greatcoat troopers and that's very cool, future imperial guard players will find it much cheaper to build an army. But will we see alternative models for nids, eldar or orks to name but three?
I really don't know, GW's ip lawyers are very hot and it would be a massive risk for any 3rd party to take. They'd have to do something close to the existing models in order for it to be obvious as an alternative purchase and to fit in but too obvious and not only are they in massive legal trouble but the money spent on moulds would undoubtedly be wasted. The greatcoats were easy by comparison to the headaches involved in making rival counts as models for other armies, and it will be just as easy to make any other future human sci-fi troopers. I look forward to seeing more types of trooper and maybe even alternatives to GW's tanks, other army's however will not be as lucky.
3rd party's are making gap filler's, there are numerous resin spore pods and tyranid/sm parts parts out there but there's no chance of seeing other company's making entire alternative/affordable 40k armies the way mantic is doing with fantasy armies and without that GW will never have any real competition and thus no reason to reconsider their prices.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Post apocalyptic Orks.
Near Future human republican soldiers.
Cyberpunk Elves.
Biomechanical alien hordes.
Galactical Space Knights in Exo-Armour.
Anime Aliens.
You can push the boat out with some sensible 'close but not identical' miniature ranges.
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Post by: filbert
Part of me really wishes someone would cut close to the knuckle and bring out some eerily similar models to rival the GW 40K range - I for one would be tempted to switch mini manufacturer allegiances. I'm not against 'counts-as' models at all; I just haven't found anything that looks 'enough' like what I am trying to replace for my liking.
23960
Post by: Gargskull
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Post apocalyptic Orks.
Near Future human republican soldiers.
Cyberpunk Elves.
Biomechanical alien hordes.
Galactical Space Knights in Exo-Armour.
Anime Aliens.
You can push the boat out with some sensible 'close but not identical' miniature ranges.
Right but who's going to be brave enough to stump up the cash to do that in plastic and risk the ip lawyers.
Although at the rate they're going resin alternatives will be cheaper. Hell I'd already take Kromlech's resin clanking destroyers over GW's metal meganobz and save myself a tidy amount doing so. 
filbert wrote:Part of me really wishes someone would cut close to the knuckle and bring out some eerily similar models to rival the GW 40K range - I for one would be tempted to switch mini manufacturer allegiances. I'm not against 'counts-as' models at all; I just haven't found anything that looks 'enough' like what I am trying to replace for my liking.
Thanks, that's what I was getting at but much more succinct. 
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Well, of all of them, Space Marines are iconic and I wouldn't defend someone making an identical model. However a fully armoured space knight of similar proportions in powered armour can certainly be made and can be made to look good.
Other than that, any of the others are perfectly viable. The indy companies making resins are proof in point.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
You know, I've been thinking... (dangerous 'tis true)
We play 40K and WFB because the models are so great. Let's face it no one plays because it's the best set of rules. You play because others play and because the models are top of the line.
So what happens when you no longer care for the models either due to pricing going sky high, distaste for the company that makes them or another line being more wallet friendly? Do you stick with the 40K rule set after that? Or do you just totally trash the lot and pick up other rules?
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Post by: Murdock129
Seriously at this rate I'll be able to get a FW Giant for cheaper than the GW one in a few years
18410
Post by: filbert
A little from column A, a little from column B really. I wouldn't say I only stick with GW just because of the models; yes, the rule set has flaws but it's a pretty good game all told. Having said that, I haven't really played any other games - I guess it is the fear of the buy-in that stops me from moving to WM or something similar.
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Post by: Ixquic
Murdock129 wrote:Seriously at this rate I'll be able to get a FW Giant for cheaper than the GW one in a few years
Last year the exchange rate was at such a point it was cheaper for me to buy the renegade guard models from FW than to buy actual GW cadians.
The Green Git wrote:You know, I've been thinking... (dangerous 'tis true)
We play 40K and WFB because the models are so great. Let's face it no one plays because it's the best set of rules. You play because others play and because the models are top of the line.
So what happens when you no longer care for the models either due to pricing going sky high, distaste for the company that makes them or another line being more wallet friendly? Do you stick with the 40K rule set after that? Or do you just totally trash the lot and pick up other rules?
Their models aren't the best and their rules certainly aren't the greatest. The reason people play GW games is because of their ubiquitousness. Go into any GW store and there will be people to play against and you aren't even allowed to talk about other games (and sometimes even the specialist stuff). If you are lucky enough to have a local independent store there will be some community of players. What stops people from going to smaller companies is that you have to spend a decent amount of money and time learning the system and if there is no one to play against there's no point. If you already have a lot of friends you can sometimes get everyone to try a new game but even then people have a lot of time and money already invested and it's hard to start new.
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Post by: Ketara
Ostrakon and Fateweaver, it's not that we need to either shut up and keep buying, or shut up and stop playing. If I'm unhappy with something, I'm damn well going to voice my discontent.
You say that if I can't afford it, I shouldn't be doing it anyway. But the problem here is that until recently, I could afford it. This is my hobby, and how I relax and unwind. The fact that I now cannot enjoy something I have done before, is reason enough to moan. Otherwise it's like saying I have no right to moan because butter has got so expensive I can't afford it anymore, and am instead forced to buy margarine.(not the case, but an example). The fact is, I'm not able to enjoy something I enjoyed before. Therefore, I will moan about it. Moaning is part of life.
You say it's just a small price increase so I should pay up, or I couldn't have afforded the current price really anyway. That's not the case and is an oversimplification of the issue.
When I started this, I could get a box of 20 Cadians for £15. Affordable. I could afford roughly, if I so desired, to get a box every fortnight. Then they went up to £18. Now I could only afford a box once a month. Then they split the boxes into 10 for £12. Now, with this increase, models went to being special purchases for birthdays, when I do a bit of extra unanticipated work, etc. Still just about affordable. Another price increase of 10 of them to £15 will pretty much price them out of my market. They have gone from being affordable, to being unaffordable. I didn't just suddenly think 'wow, that extra £3 will bankrupt me!', I've just had to buy less and less because of the price, to the point where the 'less and less' has finally slipped into 'nothing'.
Theoretically speaking, if this is the case, than GW's sales go down each time, but the new price rise raises profits. It's just a case of them pushing to the point whereby so many people are pushed over that same threshold as me, that they end up losing more than they make.
Therefore I will grumble, because I can no longer afford something I previously enjoyed doing. Bite me.
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Post by: gorgon
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Let's be clear.
Because there seems to be a disconnect here. I can afford this, many who are voicing their annoyance with the price can afford it.
I am a professional, married with no kids. I have a reasonable disposable income to spend on luxury goods.
The reason many of us are annoyed with GW is that the figures are exceeding their perceived worth to us.
And this was my point in my earlier post. I can afford the prices, LOL. The problem is just that some GW products are now reaching my personal "feel like an a-hole for paying that" level.
I don't want to bash GW and I would prefer to see them enjoy success. However, I think it may be a problem for them that a professional with an advanced degree earning a good salary is starting to give pause at the prices of certain products. I mean, I've had a LONG run with GW. They've always been expensive compared to the competition, even back in RT. But man, that Ravener box triggered a WTF that I haven't really had before.
At the very least, I don't think some of these prices -- particularly Raveners, Goldswords, Bestigors and other small plastic box sets in the $40-50 range -- can be good for the FLGS. Once a small box like that hits that price level, I'm almost certainly looking to a discounter even if I'm not put off entirely.
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Post by: Osbad
The Green Git wrote:You know, I've been thinking... (dangerous 'tis true)
We play 40K and WFB because the models are so great. Let's face it no one plays because it's the best set of rules. You play because others play and because the models are top of the line.
So what happens when you no longer care for the models either due to pricing going sky high, distaste for the company that makes them or another line being more wallet friendly? Do you stick with the 40K rule set after that? Or do you just totally trash the lot and pick up other rules?
I choose the latter. While I can see the attraction of playing "counts as" armies, particularly if you are a fan of competitive play, or like the look of a particular set of models, personally convenience plays a major part. I can't be bothered doing all the necessary research, and if I was going to go to all the trouble of sourcing non- GW models, I may as well look for other games too. On the other hand, I know (from listening to the Podhammer and Worlds End Radio podcasts) that the Warhammer FB tournament circuit is thriving in Oz, and the participants are big on non- GW models, with non- GW armies featuring strongly in the scene since GW abandoned support for the tournament circuit over there. The way it seems to have bitten me is a greater slide into historicals gaming, where the fluff is better ( ) as well as the value for money being superior. And to be honest, its where the hearts of the like of JJ, Rick Priestley and the rest of the old gang at GW (and former old gang, such as John Stallard, Ronnie Renton and Paul Sawyer) are at now in any case. 40k and WFB are what they do to keep the roof over their heads. What they do for love is historicals. Maybe its just because I'm getting on a bit, or maybe its just because I'm returning to the WWII fascination of my youth, but historical models and gaming in general appeal more and more as they are less "silly" than 40k and WFB. Wallowing around in the historical world finding out about real conflicts and situations seems somehow more rewarding than just mugging up on some made up stuff that someone spouted out of the top of his head (or other orifice...) Its also a lot less embarassing when talking to "normal" folks about my hobby!
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Post by: agnosto
I like how this price increase goes against the economic notion of economy of scale. They improve production, reduce production costs and still raise prices. Even Apple lowers prices on their products from one generation to the next as the product is perfected.
For me, as a consumer, it's all about perceived value. As the prices raise and quality/quantity remains fairly constant the value of the merchandise declines at an equal rate. Value is determined in my personal enjoyment (to a greater extent) vs. actual value of the merchandise (to a greatly lesser extent).
It's to the point where I am able to afford less merchandise for my hobby dollar and now will begin to look elsewhere or just shelve everything again. I only have one friend that plays anyway so saying goodbye to GW products isn't going to kill my social life, no matter how much I enjoyed it; in fact, my wife might be happy that I have more time to help her with the gardening (ick).
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
I can afford these price increases, but at the end of the day, it's hard to justify paying £40+ for three bits of plastic. As Samuel L Jackson once said: "My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumb ass!"
22637
Post by: DEATH89
For me this seems ridiculous and I agree with Mean Green Stompa's points wholeheartedly, the stuff I buy before the hike will have to last me a fair while.
Also, while I used to buy frequently from my local GW to help keep the local manager's (who I get on very well with and have enjoyed many games with over the years) sales figures up, I'll now be buying from online discount sites because I have a strict budget of £40 max a month for all hobbies excluding music (£10 per month), and the rest of my wages are saved or spent on living costs (countryside transport to work is expensive when fuel is £1.23p/ltr and you travel 20 miles to work 6 days a week).
Just because people may have a tight budget for wargames doesn't mean they should quit the hobby. Otherwise I should have quit while I was on a minimal hours job but I scrimped and saved for my hobby then and it was the only thing I had to enjoy at an otherwise depressing time. Elitist views like Ostrakon's just sound like a stereotypical rich person trying to get the dirty peasants out of his beautiful game.
(sorry for the textwall guys)
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Post by: skrulnik
Ouze wrote:
Not to defend GWS, but it should be mentioned
1.) The Mantic offer as listed is actually £30, not £22.50 - a 30% difference.
2.) The Mantic product doesn't actually exist yet - it's still a pre-order. It would be more fair to compare to the (shipping) elven warhost.
All of that Mantic stuff is available. I own it. Picked up some at Adepticon, ordered the rest that same week.
I now have 60 Skellies, 60 Revenants, 30 Ghouls, 2 catapults, the 4 character models, and am waiting on the Wraiths, Knights, and Lord on Nightmare.
This set me back $220.
For GW stuff, 60 Skellies, 60 Grave Guard, 30 Ghouls, 4 characters, Lord on Nightmare, 5 Wraiths, and 5 Black Knights would have cost $571.
Bump it up another $45 if the Mantic Knights end up being vampires.
GW's VC models are not 3x better than Mantic's.
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Post by: Samus666
Ostrakon wrote:
There are very, very few people in civilized countries who have enough money to get into 40k and then become poor simply by being victims of circumstance. Capitalism kind of sucks, but it's not usually bad enough to take someone from financial stability to irrevocable destitution unless somebody made some really bad choices.
Think again. It's amazing what a recession and unnecessary price hikes can do to ones ability to afford their hobby.
Ostrakon wrote: Yeah, some people, like me, were born into a poor family. Does that mean that I should've gotten to play 40k when I was 9? Not really, poor families need to focus on NEEDS instead of unnecessary distractions. Poor people certainly have a right to be happy and get themselves into or back into financial stability, be it from outside assistance or hard work or both.
Doesn't mean that they should be spending money on gak they can't afford. Sure, they have a right to. But it makes them absolutely fething stupid.
How the feth is it offensive to say "Don't play something you can't afford?" Are you defending the decision to pour money into something you shouldn't? Are people who started playing 40k and now can't continue playing because models are more expensive "victims of circumstance?"
Don't insult me or swear at me. This is a public forum. I am not 'f***ing stupid', I have an IQ of 143 and know when to stop spending money on things that have become overpriced or too expensive for me. Thanks though, you kinda just helped me make my point. And I have a right to be annoyed that my hobby has become something I would have to be stupid to invest money in.
Ostrakon wrote:And when the feth did I say anything about 9 year olds shouldn't be allowed to play? All I said was that most people don't like playing kids (true statement) and that the game is in no way geared towards kids that age (also true). If some guy learns to play when he's 10, fething fantastic, but that makes him an outlier. That doesn't mean we should be marketing a game to third graders that, to them, would glorify a warmongering, grossly xenophobic theocracy.
You said that nobody likes playing 9 year olds as justification for your earlier assertion that its good thing if they can't afford the hobby. You don't get to backtrack now.
And this is what the ignore button is for.
Edited to say: just noticed that the expletives that show up when I quote you in my comment box show up on the actual forum as 'feth' instead. not sure how or why that happens.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Samus666 wrote:Edited to say: just noticed that the expletives that show up when I quote you in my comment box show up on the actual forum as 'feth' instead. not sure how or why that happens.
Its dakka's way to safe net profanity to keep it family friendly.
However im still confused why they let it slide.
8737
Post by: rich1231
Mr. Burning wrote:These price rises could, of course, just be for independent stockists .
Regardless of what 'Sphere has placed on their site about RRP increases. It is unusual of GW not to publicy announce shifts on pricing, with announcements coming in White Dwarf and the website.
Not its not.
These are RRP changes. So price rises will be seen across all GBP pricing.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
The way I see this I think its a very nice window of oportunity for the more down to earth companies to establish themselves a nice place in the pound.
Last few years we have seen lots of new small companies to pop up and thats a good sign. I like GW miniatures and I like Alternative miniatures to the point that in some periods of time I buy exclusively non GW... THe fact that the big fish is not optimized on eating everything makes concorrents a lot more healthy.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Reminds me to tell you that I have just fed your fish
6210
Post by: Le Grognard
Ketara wrote:Ostrakon and Fateweaver, it's not that we need to either shut up and keep buying, or shut up and stop playing. If I'm unhappy with something, I'm damn well going to voice my discontent.
You say that if I can't afford it, I shouldn't be doing it anyway. But the problem here is that until recently, I could afford it. This is my hobby, and how I relax and unwind. The fact that I now cannot enjoy something I have done before, is reason enough to moan. Otherwise it's like saying I have no right to moan because butter has got so expensive I can't afford it anymore, and am instead forced to buy margarine.(not the case, but an example). The fact is, I'm not able to enjoy something I enjoyed before. Therefore, I will moan about it. Moaning is part of life.
You say it's just a small price increase so I should pay up, or I couldn't have afforded the current price really anyway. That's not the case and is an oversimplification of the issue.
When I started this, I could get a box of 20 Cadians for £15. Affordable. I could afford roughly, if I so desired, to get a box every fortnight. Then they went up to £18. Now I could only afford a box once a month. Then they split the boxes into 10 for £12. Now, with this increase, models went to being special purchases for birthdays, when I do a bit of extra unanticipated work, etc. Still just about affordable. Another price increase of 10 of them to £15 will pretty much price them out of my market. They have gone from being affordable, to being unaffordable. I didn't just suddenly think 'wow, that extra £3 will bankrupt me!', I've just had to buy less and less because of the price, to the point where the 'less and less' has finally slipped into 'nothing'.
Theoretically speaking, if this is the case, than GW's sales go down each time, but the new price rise raises profits. It's just a case of them pushing to the point whereby so many people are pushed over that same threshold as me, that they end up losing more than they make.
Therefore I will grumble, because I can no longer afford something I previously enjoyed doing. Bite me.
Preach on brotha Ketara!
24035
Post by: Ostrakon
It's like what I said before, like 4 pages back. If you're complaining about the price increase because now you literally can't afford it, then you are a fething moron for playing GW games in the first place if your finances are that messed up.
If you're complaining about it for philosophical reasons, that's a different argument entirely. Automatically Appended Next Post: Samus666 wrote:Ostrakon wrote:
There are very, very few people in civilized countries who have enough money to get into 40k and then become poor simply by being victims of circumstance. Capitalism kind of sucks, but it's not usually bad enough to take someone from financial stability to irrevocable destitution unless somebody made some really bad choices.
Think again. It's amazing what a recession and unnecessary price hikes can do to ones ability to afford their hobby.
Ostrakon wrote: Yeah, some people, like me, were born into a poor family. Does that mean that I should've gotten to play 40k when I was 9? Not really, poor families need to focus on NEEDS instead of unnecessary distractions. Poor people certainly have a right to be happy and get themselves into or back into financial stability, be it from outside assistance or hard work or both.
Doesn't mean that they should be spending money on gak they can't afford. Sure, they have a right to. But it makes them absolutely fething stupid.
How the feth is it offensive to say "Don't play something you can't afford?" Are you defending the decision to pour money into something you shouldn't? Are people who started playing 40k and now can't continue playing because models are more expensive "victims of circumstance?"
Don't insult me or swear at me. This is a public forum. I am not 'f***ing stupid', I have an IQ of 143 and know when to stop spending money on things that have become overpriced or too expensive for me. Thanks though, you kinda just helped me make my point. And I have a right to be annoyed that my hobby has become something I would have to be stupid to invest money in.
Ostrakon wrote:And when the feth did I say anything about 9 year olds shouldn't be allowed to play? All I said was that most people don't like playing kids (true statement) and that the game is in no way geared towards kids that age (also true). If some guy learns to play when he's 10, fething fantastic, but that makes him an outlier. That doesn't mean we should be marketing a game to third graders that, to them, would glorify a warmongering, grossly xenophobic theocracy.
You said that nobody likes playing 9 year olds as justification for your earlier assertion that its good thing if they can't afford the hobby. You don't get to backtrack now.
And this is what the ignore button is for.
Edited to say: just noticed that the expletives that show up when I quote you in my comment box show up on the actual forum as 'feth' instead. not sure how or why that happens.
Wow,are you really such an insecure douchehat that you felt the need to post your IQ in an internet argument? Do you really think that that has any bearing on the conversation at all?
All of my comments are directed at people who apparently have to saveup to buy minis. If you CAN afford it and choose not to for whatever reason, my comments are not directed at you.
And you're twisting my words. I clarified before your first post on the matter that most people wouldn't like playing 9 year olds, and I didn't say it's a good thing they can't afford the hobby - I said that GW games really aren't appropriate for a kid that age to be playing.
Though I think someone with an IQ of 143 would probably have the basic, grade-school reading comprehension skills to glean that information from my posts.
20124
Post by: Neith
The price rise was inevitable, but it's getting too expensive for me to justify now. If I buy any further stuff, I'll have to get it from non- GW stores. I'm not really hurting for cash, but plastic and metal models are only worth so much.
To think I remember when Tactical Squads were £10
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Post by: Mr. Burning
rich1231 wrote:Mr. Burning wrote:These price rises could, of course, just be for independent stockists .
Regardless of what 'Sphere has placed on their site about RRP increases. It is unusual of GW not to publicy announce shifts on pricing, with announcements coming in White Dwarf and the website.
Not its not.
These are RRP changes. So price rises will be seen across all GBP pricing.
I did say 'could'.
GW 'could' be a front for highly specialised massage parlour where monkeys are the massuses. 
I think its odd that RRP price changes are not on the main GW website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ostrakon,
You used the words philosophical and doucehat in the same post.
As easily amused as I am. I like it!
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Post by: Frazzled
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