Yeah, but a Grey Knight spear would fire bolts of psychic energy!

Melissia wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Power spears/ rank and file sounds more Grey Knights than sisters to me, to tell the truth.

Why?

Actually it makes more sense for sisters because there are more Sisters in the first place... and therefor they could create a better spear wall and have more need for coordination within a squad...

I can't imagine enough Grey Knights to want to fight in formation. They are a quick in and out kinda force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oooh, going with the power stake thing, what about a roman style formation. Long spears and tower shields.

I know, I'm obsessed with shields.

Shields don't modify save but allow them to cut # of hits from any template/blast in half.

In fantasy Halberds give you plus +2 strenght. Correct me if I am wrong.
While spears allow you to fight in two ranks (or three if your high elves).

Tortotians

WS/BS 4/4 S/T 3/4 Sv 3+

Power Stake and Tower Shield

Unit has Slow and Purposeful and Counter Attack.

Shield Wall: Templates or blasts directed at a Tortotian unit only deal half the number of hits.

The ultimate in Bubble Wrap. Toughness boost is the Shield.

Slarg232 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Not really. They use force weapons that allow them to focus their psychic powers.

Totally different than power weapons.

Although, a sword/board unit there that is made up of what are essentially Chaplains with Librarian powers in Grey?

Yeah. That'd be awesome. Totally not overpowered too
Intended @ Slarg about Grey Knights.

But they are still weapons with long handles, and GK are more "backs to the wall" than sisters, so it would make more sense to have them have a Rank and File rule over the sisters.

Not really, because each Grey Knight has a specific role within their squad that ensures the squad functions as a whole. They're more skirmishers than rank 'n' file.

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Power spears/ rank and file sounds more Grey Knights than sisters to me, to tell the truth.

Grey Knights use halberds not spears.
My medieval is a little rusty, but Aren't halberds used to receive charges, more so than spears?

Halberds were, to put it lightly, a jack of all trades weapon. They were used by the Swiss and the Germans to soften up infantry prior to a cavalry/infantry charge. The axe bladed head allowed for them to cut spears/pikes down to open up gaps in the line to be exploited.

They were also used to protect things like archers, arbalesters, etc from cavalry charges or during sieges to push ladders off and those on the ladders off too.

pretre wrote:Tortotians

WS/BS 4/4 S/T 3/4 Sv 3+

Power Stake and Tower Shield

Unit has Slow and Purposeful and Counter Attack.

Shield Wall: Templates or blasts directed at a Tortotian unit only deal half the number of hits.

If you look in my homebrew codex. I have a similar rule for Crusaders. It forces all Crusaders to be in base to base contact but gives them the feel no pain rule and defensive grenades. That being said they have swords instead of spears.

THROW DOWN YOUR WEAPONS, SISTERS.

COME AND GET THEM, HERETIC.

Necrosis wrote:In fantasy Halberds give you plus +2 strenght. Correct me if I am wrong.
While spears allow you to fight in two ranks (or three if your high elves).

Haven't played fantasy in forever, but yeah, that sounds right. My bad everyone.

Still, I don't really care about formations. It would keep you too close together. I like the idea of all sisters within 4 inches being able to fight, rather than the formation. No other army has formations, and I don't think they should add in a new mechanic for only one army (Well, maybe two ). I would have to see how it did it.

As for sheilds, maybe just give them a 4+ invulnerable save?

Anyway, something else they should do for sisters is make Inferno Pistols have the +D6 for armor penetration at the full 6". Thats already really close. I can see why they did it (all other melta guns have to be within half to gain the bonus), but still.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:THROW DOWN YOUR WEAPONS, SISTERS.

COME AND GET THEM, HERETIC.

Win.

Necrosis wrote:In fantasy Halberds give you plus +2 strenght. Correct me if I am wrong.
While spears allow you to fight in two ranks (or three if your high elves).

You're wrong. Great Weapons give you +2 strength (and strike last, except when charging). Halberds give you +1 strength.

Slarg232 wrote:
Anyway, something else they should do for sisters is make Inferno Pistols have the +D6 for armor penetration at the full 6". Thats already really close. I can see why they did it (all other melta guns have to be within half to gain the bonus), but still.

But the blood angel Infernus pistol still use the melta rule (so you have to be within 3 to get the extra D6).

Dunno, I'd prefer Sisters spears to be two-handed, and therefor not allow a shield . It makes more sense and doesn't require them to form up into a formation as much. And I'm thinking far smaller spears I suppose, seven feet at most.

Bucklers!

Well then how about sisters with spears and sisters with swords and shields?

Slarg232 wrote:[
Still, I don't really care about formations. It would keep you too close together. I like the idea of all sisters within 4 inches being able to fight, rather than the formation. No other army has formations, and I don't think they should add in a new mechanic for only one army (Well, maybe two ). I would have to see how it did it.

Exactly why we should do it.

It is suicide to stand in formations in the future.... For those who lack faith!

As for sheilds, maybe just give them a 4+ invulnerable save?

We did that on the Paladines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:Well then how about sisters with spears and sisters with swords and shields?

Bah. I guess.

I liked the ranked lines thing.

Sisters with Counter Attack and 4" Strike back power weapons will have to do.

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:[
Still, I don't really care about formations. It would keep you too close together. I like the idea of all sisters within 4 inches being able to fight, rather than the formation. No other army has formations, and I don't think they should add in a new mechanic for only one army (Well, maybe two ). I would have to see how it did it.

Exactly why we should do it.

It is suicide to stand in formations in the future.... For those who lack faith!

As for sheilds, maybe just give them a 4+ invulnerable save?

We did that on the Paladines.

Ok, I could maybe see that reasoning, but it is still so far off of what everyone else has that players would have to completly relearn the game in order to learn to play in formations. I just don't think its a good idea.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't paying attention, that was my bad. Still, the whole "Cuts down # of template hits by half" sounds farfetched. Maybe give them a cover save/+1 to their cover save, but other than that, no sheild, no matter what it's made out of, is going to ignore half of a LRBT's battle cannon.

In Codex: WH, on both the Cover and Page 12, there are flying sisters with spears and sword and board that are never explained anywhere...

Maybe GW is way ahead of us.

Damnit, I'm going to contribute here if it kills me.

What I thought of, as a way to kind of "balance out" the fact that the Terminator Redemptor squads I thought of would be heavily outnumbered in combat was this:

Bulwark of Retribution: The Bulwarks of Retribution are specially modified Storm Shields which the Redemptor units employ to great effect when they teleport directly into the fray. The shields allow for the wielders to effectively counterattack while at the same time blocking incoming attacks. The modifications to the field, however, have compromised the field generators they employ resulting in an Invulnerable Save in close combat being as 5+ rather than the standard 4+. However, this is offset by the fact that whenever the Redemptors are struck by a successful hit in close combat, they may force the attacker to take a single S3 AP- hit.

Since DA Storm Shields, for some stupid reason, are Invulnerables in CC only(and 4+ rather than the standard 3+), we can just change "Storm Shield" here to "Combat Shield" for the Sisters alongside their spears/swords...

pretre wrote:In Codex: WH, on both the Cover and Page 12, there are flying sisters with spears and sword and board that are never explained anywhere...

Maybe GW is way ahead of us.

That's a living saint.

Slarg232 wrote:

Ok, I could maybe see that reasoning, but it is still so far off of what everyone else has that players would have to completly relearn the game in order to learn to play in formations. I just don't think its a good idea.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't paying attention, that was my bad. Still, the whole "Cuts down # of template hits by half" sounds farfetched. Maybe give them a cover save/+1 to their cover save, but other than that, no sheild, no matter what it's made out of, is going to ignore half of a LRBT's battle cannon.

We're already past that. That was so 5 minutes ago.

And one word for you: Faith.

Wait, a second word since you said 'NO SHIELD': Void.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:

pretre wrote:In Codex: WH, on both the Cover and Page 12, there are flying sisters with spears and sword and board that are never explained anywhere...

Maybe GW is way ahead of us.

That's a living saint.

There's three of them in formation on Page 12.

pretre wrote:
There's three of them in formation on Page 12.

The other two are Cherubim.

Kanluwen wrote:Damnit, I'm going to contribute here if it kills me.

What I thought of, as a way to kind of "balance out" the fact that the Terminator Redemptor squads I thought of would be heavily outnumbered in combat was this:

Bulwark of Retribution: The Bulwarks of Retribution are specially modified Storm Shields which the Redemptor units employ to great effect when they teleport directly into the fray. The shields allow for the wielders to effectively counterattack while at the same time blocking incoming attacks. The modifications to the field, however, have compromised the field generators they employ resulting in an Invulnerable Save in close combat being as 5+ rather than the standard 4+. However, this is offset by the fact that whenever the Redemptors are struck by a successful hit in close combat, they may force the attacker to take a single S3 AP- hit.

Since DA Storm Shields, for some stupid reason, are Invulnerables in CC only(and 4+ rather than the standard 3+), we can just change "Storm Shield" here to "Combat Shield" for the Sisters alongside their spears/swords...

I like that. I would prob just change it to 4+ Inv with Str 3 AP - for every hit to match 5th edition. (So wimpy Storm Shields with Retrib, but that's a cool idea.

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Ok, I could maybe see that reasoning, but it is still so far off of what everyone else has that players would have to completly relearn the game in order to learn to play in formations. I just don't think its a good idea.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't paying attention, that was my bad. Still, the whole "Cuts down # of template hits by half" sounds farfetched. Maybe give them a cover save/+1 to their cover save, but other than that, no sheild, no matter what it's made out of, is going to ignore half of a LRBT's battle cannon.

We're already past that. That was so 5 minutes ago.

And one word for you: Faith.

Wait, a second word since you said 'NO SHIELD': Void.

Well, since I can't seem to keep up with you guys on the shields, how about I just try to think of a new tank or something?

Well In my Homebrew Codex I made a new tank that is 12 all around expect the back, is fast and has a flamestorm cannon to make sure sisters are still the best flaming army.

Necrosis wrote:

pretre wrote:
There's three of them in formation on Page 12.

The other two are Cherubim.

Those Cherubim have swords.

What about the other ones behind that? Stop peeing in my Cheerios.

And check out page 44. Sister with Shield and Power Spear.

No, you'll mess it up! Go doodle on the stalls

Speaking of tanks...let's take a page from the Orks and Futurama.

Open topped Land Raider with a fighting platform which can house a Dominion squad and allows for them to fire heavy weapons while cruising...

Call it the Mobile Repression Homestead!

Necrosis wrote:Well In my Homebrew Codex I made a new tank that is 12 all around expect the back, is fast and has a flamestorm cannon to make sure sisters are still the best flaming army.

I was talking to Mel about that.

I was thinking Predator Chassis, FlameS sponsons and something cool on the turret.

Why Predator chassis? Sisters already have two of their own STCs to work with, the Exorcist and the Immolator.

Nah. Predators should really stay Astartes, Leman Russes as Guard, etc.

They're signature units, frankly.

pretre wrote:
Those Cherubim have swords.

What about the other ones behind that? Stop peeing in my Cheerios.

Cherubim are armed with a single close combat weapon.

Kanluwen wrote:No, you'll mess it up! Go doodle on the stalls

Speaking of tanks...let's take a page from the Orks and Futurama.

Open topped Land Raider with a fighting platform which can house a Dominion squad and allows for them to fire heavy weapons while cruising...

Call it the Mobile Repression Homestead!

Win.

I always thought they should have a mobile churchy thing. LR Chassis or whatever, something that is a center for faith on the field.

If I can fire heavy weapons while moving, that's cool too.

How about a drop podding bunker/church? Armor 14 bunkers that are immobile and deepstrike, giving faith.

That'd piss off those Deepstriking landraider bastards!

What Sisters need is a goddamn Cathedral on legs.

Also, the Conflagrator Tank in my codex DOES have options for the Inferno Cannon, which is the flame weapon used on the Hellhound.

Which itself was supposedly derived from the Immolator STC to begin with.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:What Sisters need is a goddamn Cathedral on legs.

There's an idea I like!

Necrosis wrote:Well In my Homebrew Codex I made a new tank that is 12 all around expect the back, is fast and has a flamestorm cannon to make sure sisters are still the best flaming army.

DAMN YOU! I really want to help you guys out, so I can kill some sisters on a later date.....


Anyway:

Litany Pillbox (needs a serious name, obviously):

Constantly spouting the blasphemous litany of the False Emperor, This tank helps remind the sisters of their duty.

Rhino Chasis. 12 front armor, 11 side armor, 10 back armor. Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Litany: All units within 12 inches of the Pillbox gain the Iron Will Special Rule (Inquisitor Lord section, choose to pass or fail LD tests).

Hows that?

Fine, no Predator.

I like variant Exorcists like Mel brought up earlier D6 Blast Str 6 AP 4?

Melta Immo. Str 8 AP1 Melta Template?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:What Sisters need is a goddamn Cathedral on legs.

Like Baba Yaga's chicken hut, but a walker Church.

Make it have a chance to blow up in the pipes and we're set

Kanluwen wrote:No, you'll mess it up! Go doodle on the stalls

Speaking of tanks...let's take a page from the Orks and Futurama.

Open topped Land Raider with a fighting platform which can house a Dominion squad and allows for them to fire heavy weapons while cruising...

Call it the Mobile Repression Homestead!

You hurt me feelings mate....

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Well In my Homebrew Codex I made a new tank that is 12 all around expect the back, is fast and has a flamestorm cannon to make sure sisters are still the best flaming army.

DAMN YOU! I really want to help you guys out, so I can kill some sisters on a later date.....


Anyway:

Litany Pillbox (needs a serious name, obviously):

Constantly spouting the blasphemous litany of the False Emperor, This tank helps remind the sisters of their duty.

Rhino Chasis. 12 front armor, 11 side armor, 10 back armor. Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Litany: All units within 12 inches of the Pillbox gain the Iron Will Special Rule (Inquisitor Lord section, choose to pass or fail LD tests).

Hows that?

Should have maybe two twin link heavy bolters or something.

Now that I wrote it down, Melta Immo makes my pants tight.

Lol, look at us Sisters players. We get together for an hour or three and we start nerding out about how Sisters should be expanded. Happens every time...

"Us" Sisters players?

Look lady, don't put me into your silly Corset Club!

I think it's the first time in weeks we haven't been trying to cut each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Kan brought back the cutting. NM

Imagine if GW was spying on us and stealing all our ideas.

*cuts Pretre*

I can do it because I'm not a Sisters player! Bwhahahaha!

I expect your support when the DA Codex is on the horizon. Or I'm taking back the Mobile Repression Homestead.

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Well In my Homebrew Codex I made a new tank that is 12 all around expect the back, is fast and has a flamestorm cannon to make sure sisters are still the best flaming army.

DAMN YOU! I really want to help you guys out, so I can kill some sisters on a later date.....


Anyway:

Litany Pillbox (needs a serious name, obviously):

Constantly spouting the blasphemous litany of the False Emperor, This tank helps remind the sisters of their duty.

Rhino Chasis. 12 front armor, 11 side armor, 10 back armor. Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Litany: All units within 12 inches of the Pillbox gain the Iron Will Special Rule (Inquisitor Lord section, choose to pass or fail LD tests).

Hows that?

Should have maybe two twin link heavy bolters or something.

Still, the idea is sound, right?

Kanluwen wrote:"Us" Sisters players?

Look lady, don't put me into your silly Corset Club!

Agreed, I only want to help you gals so your more sporting to kill later on.

Necrosis wrote:Imagine if GW was spying on us and stealing all our ideas.

No such luck.

Although I'd probably eat one of my sister's models if I get a Flame Template Melta in the next Sisters codex.

Slarg232 wrote:

Still, the idea is sound, right?

Ya, it sound.

Kanluwen wrote:
I expect your support when the DA Codex is on the horizon. Or I'm taking back the Mobile Repression Homestead.

What are these 'DA' you speak of? Are they like Squats?

And I'd LOVE it if I could take an army of only Celestians somehow, and they're all equipped with BP+CCW, some of them upgraded with power swords instead of ranged special weapons...

Heh. I'd also love it if they made power spears a reality, but alas.

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Still, the idea is sound, right?

Ya, it sound.

hehe, you didn't see what I did there.

Litany + "Sound"

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I expect your support when the DA Codex is on the horizon. Or I'm taking back the Mobile Repression Homestead.

What are these 'DA' you speak of? Are they like Squats?

...

That's it, it's now the Floating Redemption Chateau.

Are you happy now?!

Kanluwen wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I expect your support when the DA Codex is on the horizon. Or I'm taking back the Mobile Repression Homestead.

What are these 'DA' you speak of? Are they like Squats?

...

That's it, it's now the Floating Redemption Chateau.

Are you happy now?!

Whoo! Skimmer. French Skimmer!

Yeah, it's a deal.

(I'm currently considering how to convert a Monolith into a Floating Redemption Chateau)

And on that note, I'm going home for the day. Try not to kill anyone.

...

Crap. Lil' late for that one.

My poor thread.

Manchu wrote:My poor thread.

It could have been far worse.

Necrosis wrote:

Manchu wrote:My poor thread.

It could have been far worse.

...... Chaos Sisters could have prevailed.

All things considered, me moving it back on topic probably saved it.

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Manchu wrote:My poor thread.

It could have been far worse.

...... Chaos Sisters could have prevailed.

I'm still trying to see why this [chaos sisters] is a bad thing. Put a white sheet of paper against another white sheet of paper.

Not a lot of contrast, right?

Put that same white sheet of paper against a black one.

Now the white stands out.

If Sisters were known to go rogue; not necessarily on a regular basis, but at such a rate that it happens more often than 1 in ever, then wouldn't the faith and staying power of those sisters still in the SoB be that much more impressive?

Slarg232 wrote:Still, Chaos Sisters wouldn't be that bad of an idea.

This is an interesting discussion. I've been working on a codex called Slayers of the Faithful, which is a unique army that focuses on killing or, preferably, sacrificing the Emperor's most faithful servants. Grey Knights and Sisters are near the top, along with with things like Imperial Saints and any other individual that the Emperor likes to support. It's definitely not Chaos Sisters, but I could possibly see a very small unit snuck in there. I wouldn't go for anything larger though, as I've never seen many incidents of corruption from them, and I can't see that many of them in one place.

Essentially, the closer they are to the Emperor, and the more uncorruptible they are, the more desired they are as victims. Someone like a standard guardsperson would hardly be worth their time. Inquisitors would be a mixed bag; some might be worthwhile, while others would be no good at all. They would get something similar to how faith points are used, but with some changes and alterations. Fluffwise, but probably not gamewise they will also have some connection to the Dark Elder, as regards trading of captives, since the Dark Eldar are more into quantity of the captives, where these are more about the perceived quality of the captives.

I got the idea when I was discussing Witch Hunters with a friend, and wondered why the Witches don't do some hunting in return. It's going to be a mixed force with more of a LOTD feel rather than a straight Traitor Legions force. So far it's experimental, however, but I've got enough done that it's being beta tested by some acquaintances.

Kanluwen wrote:*resists the urge to make a woman+kitchen joke about Sisters*

Didn't quite make it, though, did you?

Ever met any girls that honestly believe they are better than men just because of their sex? What you're doing is like that, only the other way. It's a dickish thing to say that really didn't have to be said.

I think we already have cathedrals with legs. We call them Titans.

Personally I'd like to see some Sister Hospitaller. maybe make them like Sanguinary priest, but without the Blood chalice 6" bubble of bull****

Luke_Prowler wrote:I think we already have cathedrals with legs. We call them Titans.

And the Sisters need to be commanding some of those, damnit.

I'd like to see a Sisters variant Sentinel... just so they have a walker that's not the Penitent Engine.

Something like AV12/12/10, left arm has a DCCW, right arm has a heavy flamer. Visually it'd look like a sturdier sentinel with an eviscerator arm on one side and a heavy flamer arm on the other, kinda like a cross between a Sentinel and a small Battlemech.

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Manchu wrote:My poor thread.

It could have been far worse.

...... Chaos Sisters could have prevailed.

Whose to say they didn't............bwahhaaahhaa.

Graham D wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*resists the urge to make a woman+kitchen joke about Sisters*

Didn't quite make it, though, did you?

Ever met any girls that honestly believe they are better than men just because of their sex? What you're doing is like that, only the other way. It's a dickish thing to say that really didn't have to be said.

Its called humor, if you don't have a sense for detecting it, it will fly right over your head. Kanluwen has a sense of humor, it has atrophied due to the kong hours of training and maintaining psychic discipline, but it is still there.
Try nourishing it and it might develop into something that will make you laugh.

Some jokes just aren't funny. Either they're just poorly phrased, or they're on subjects that aren't funny, the person doesn't have the charisma to pull it off, or it's just so overdone that nobody really laughs at it anymore.

Melissia wrote:Some jokes just aren't funny. Either they're just poorly phrased, or they're on subjects that aren't funny, the person doesn't have the charisma to pull it off, or it's just so overdone that nobody really laughs at it anymore.

Kitchen jokes are kinda becoming like "Yo momma" jokes nowadays.....

Slarg232 wrote:
Kitchen jokes are kinda becoming like "Yo momma" jokes nowadays.....

I don't think they are funny what so ever.

Slarg232 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Some jokes just aren't funny. Either they're just poorly phrased, or they're on subjects that aren't funny, the person doesn't have the charisma to pull it off, or it's just so overdone that nobody really laughs at it anymore.

Kitchen jokes are kinda becoming like "Yo momma" jokes nowadays.....

Speaking as a female who plays FPS games online, yes, they are...

Melissia wrote:Some jokes just aren't funny. Either they're just poorly phrased, or they're on subjects that aren't funny, the person doesn't have the charisma to pull it off, or it's just so overdone that nobody really laughs at it anymore.

It was perfectly timed, but poor taste. Apologies.

Now, I think it's time to start brainstorming reinventing Dark Angels...

Kanluwen wrote:
It was perfectly timed, but poor taste. Apologies.

Now, I think it's time to start brainstorming reinventing Dark Angels...

First we should give them a thread.
Then give them almost everything that space marines have.
And then give them a special rules. That would be a start.

Indeed. Dark Angels have waited a long time, too. As have Necrons and Dark Eldar and Grey knights....

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
Kitchen jokes are kinda becoming like "Yo momma" jokes nowadays.....

I don't think they are funny what so ever.

Exactly, overused. Now, with the right delivery between friends, they can be hilarious, just like "That's what she said", but those are the exception, not the rule.

Melissia wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Some jokes just aren't funny. Either they're just poorly phrased, or they're on subjects that aren't funny, the person doesn't have the charisma to pull it off, or it's just so overdone that nobody really laughs at it anymore.

Kitchen jokes are kinda becoming like "Yo momma" jokes nowadays.....

Speaking as a female who plays FPS games online, yes, they are...

Since we are already off track, PC or Xbox?

Anyway, back to Sisters:

Since they are going to have to create a fair amount of units to make up for the allies that they could use, they should almost make a unit with stealth suits (Like the Vindicare Assassin, so imperials have the technology). Weither it would be a close combat unit or a sniper team IDK, but it would be kinda cool.

If one of you starts it, I'll post in it. Otherwise it'll be a bit before I get around to posting it as it's now time to go run errands!

So does everyone think SoB are broken? They seem ok to me....

Melissia wrote:All things considered, me moving it back on topic probably saved it.

lolwut

No this thread was not about OTT dream units, whether jousting biker sisters or venerable seraphim or walking cathedrals or anyone's fandex anything, but rather about plausible ways to reform C:WH at a structural level so as to create a better product.

Slarg232 wrote:Since we are already off track, PC or Xbox?

PC, mostly TF2.

As for the infiltrating unit, that's why I created Nightflame Veterans. Originally the Cult of the Nightflame, they went through the most amount of revision to get right, but I like them how they are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:All things considered, me moving it back on topic probably saved it.

lolwut

No this thread was not about OTT dream units, whether jousting biker sisters or venerable seraphim or walking cathedrals or anyone's fandex anything, but rather about plausible ways to reform C:WH at a structural level so as to create a better product.

In that case I don't want anything to do with it. Screw C:WH, it's a crappy codex. I want a 5th Edition codex, not C:WH+.

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:All things considered, me moving it back on topic probably saved it.

lolwut

No this thread was not about OTT dream units, whether jousting biker sisters or venerable seraphim or walking cathedrals or anyone's fandex anything, but rather about plausible ways to reform C:WH at a structural level so as to create a better product.

*points to space wolves riding wolves*

Necrosis wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Melissia wrote:All things considered, me moving it back on topic probably saved it.

lolwut

No this thread was not about OTT dream units, whether jousting biker sisters or venerable seraphim or walking cathedrals or anyone's fandex anything, but rather about plausible ways to reform C:WH at a structural level so as to create a better product.

*points to space wolves riding wolves*

Truth.

And what does this prove?

That GW is putting in crazy units so a walking Cathedral isn't out of the question.

I don't think Manchu cares. What they want is C:WH+, whereas we are asking for something new and good instead.

At least that's the impression I got from their most recent posts.

Melissia wrote:I don't think Manchu cares. What they want is C:WH+, whereas we are asking for something new and good instead.

At least that's the impression I got from their most recent posts.

Should give him/her a chance.

What did you envision this thread to be, Manchu?

@Melissa: I'm not totally sure who falls into "we" and who falls into "they" in your last post.

@Slarg232: I've laid it out in my previous posts including on this very page.

@Necrosis: Now that I understand your point about Thunderwolves, I admit it's a good one. But there weren't any Thunderbats at least. And dreaming up these kinds of units for Sisters is not really helpful.

"They" would be you, seeing as I don't pretend to know your gender, I used that as a (somewhat incorrect) gender-neutral pronoun. "We" would be myself and Necrosis, to various degrees at any rate.

Dreaming up new units is the BEST way to do a codex. Because it's going to have to be done in order to create a proper fifth edition codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:What did you envision this thread to be, Manchu?

THIS is what he/she wants:

No this thread was not about OTT dream units, whether jousting biker sisters or venerable seraphim or walking cathedrals or anyone's fandex anything, but rather about plausible ways to reform C:WH at a structural level so as to create a better product.

IE, he/she wants Codex: Witch Hunters Plus. I want a fifth edition codex instead.

Manchu wrote:@Slarg232: I've laid it out in my previous posts including on this very page.

Ok, I see what your saying, but still. Just with the fact that they would probably half to cut out at least half the army to truely make an Inquisition Army, and the other half would have to be cut to make a SoB army. I read somewhere, but don't remember where, that GW wanted to completely cut out any form of allies, and that would kinda kill an Inquisition army off. Which, to me, means that they are going to have to focus on SoB, which means more units. Hence the dream units.

Just my 2cents.

(Man, I really need to work on reading other peoples posts better)

focusedfire wrote:Its called humor, if you don't have a sense for detecting it, it will fly right over your head. Kanluwen has a sense of humor, it has atrophied due to the kong hours of training and maintaining psychic discipline, but it is still there.
Try nourishing it and it might develop into something that will make you laugh.

No, what you have there is a collection of mildly offensive words. A joke, by definition, is actually funny. This is neither, both by its extreme age and by its offensive tone.

It would be like trying to defend a watermelon joke to a black poster as unoffensive and cutting-edge humour. If you have anything else to say directly to me on this matter, I'll take it up with you in private. Otherwise, there is nothing more here with any relevance to the topic at hand.

@Melissa: I don't pretend to know what GW will eventually do. But I will say that jousting biker sisters is exactly as ridiculous as Thunderwolf Cavalry. You say "I want a 5th ed. dex" but your own fandex is full of strange units that do not seem to fit the fluff. How you can claim that I want C:WH+ is inexplicable--unless you haven't bothered to read anything I've written here that wasn't specifically directed at you. I seriously don't think that a dex is written from the unit level up but rather begins with an army's identity, proceeds into an army's function, and then gets to specific unit design.

@Slarg: I'm not sure that you read my earlier posts. But you'll find some answers there.

Manchu wrote:And what does this prove?

Absolutely nothing.

It's somewhat believable that Space Wolves would employ the wolves the size of friggin' Rhinos as mounts for the "favored sons of Russ".

Now, as you said if we'd seen Bloodbatsofthebloodymoon, we'd have more wtfery.

Manchu wrote:@Slarg: I'm not sure that you read my earlier posts. But you'll find some answers there.

Ah, I (think I) see now. I think your just trying to help the sisters find their "Identity", much like Tau are shooters and Orks are close combat monsters, amiright?

Well, I think Sisters already have a very well defined identity that has been watered down by GW's release of C:WH and their neglect of the Sisters since then. A new Codex would be an opportunity to reverse that watering down.

Well, it's more that players seemingly don't want the Sisters' identity of being slow, methodical, and burning the ground before them.

Manchu wrote:You say "I want a 5th ed. dex" but your own fandex is full of strange units that do not seem to fit the fluff.

I'm fairly certain my fandex is full of units which fit MY interpretation of the fluff, even if they don't fit yours.

Manchu wrote:Well, I think Sisters already have a very well defined identity that has been watered down by GW's release of C:WH and their neglect of the Sisters since then. A new Codex would be an opportunity to reverse that watering down.

Indeed.

Well, I don't really know how to help with that, other than try to make up more units, which is obviously not what you want. I am sorry that I could not be of any more help.

Melissia wrote:I'm fairly certain my fandex is full of units which fit MY interpretation of the fluff, even if they don't fit yours.

Only fairly certain? Joking aside, that's fine for a fandex. I said pages and pages ago that as far as a fandex goes it's each to his or her own. (Hence why I did not use your thread as a place to criticize Nightflame sisters, etc.) But this thread isn't about making a fandex. This thread is about or was supposed to be about (I know these sorts of things can't really be controlled) a dex published by GW. And your particular idea of what Sisters are like just doesn't cut it in such a discussion when that idea is so far from what is currently out there. It's one thing to argue that the Sisters' already established idetity is X, Y, or Z (as Kanluwen has been doing, whether I agree with him or not). It's another thing to suggest that Sisters fluff should be changed to accommodate an entirely new concept of their identity.


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Slarg232 wrote:I am sorry that I could not be of any more help.

No prob. My solution involves players having to take Sisters as compulsory choices and then being able to commit to taking an Ecclesiarchy HQ that allows taking other Ecclesiarchy options (one unit per type--or maybe some kind of ratio like one Ecc. unit for at least every two SoB units). The counterargument from Tzoo was this would not allow him to make an Ordo Hereticus army. My counter to him was that there is no reason for SoB to be the dex from which an Ordo Hereticus army (whatever that is) should be made any more than SM or IG--which Inqusitors can just as easily conscript. No responses on that line of argument for a long time and I think only 1hadhq has really added much that's on-topic (at least what I intended "on-topic" to mean) since that point.

So back on-topic,

@1hadhq: Your idea of the Sisters have command squad HQs would neatly deal with objections to the compulsory choices problem. Instead of a "Confessor" being a secondary HQ choice he would just be an optional member of the Canonnes's squad that you'd be required to take in order to use Ecclesiarchy choices. I still prefer the Canonness having an SM-style rather than IG-style command squad (command squads being the admitted trend), meaning that her squad wouldn't include a Confessor or a Sister Dialogous or Famulous or Hospitaller, etc. I don't want her to end up as a sort of Inquisitor Lord, after all.

Actually, I'd argue that my interpretation of the Sisters IS more accurate than yours. Otherwise I wouldn't be holding it. But let's not get into that argument, two people whining about eachothers' opinions isn't exactly my idea of a good time.

You'd be wrong though, since a bit of your 'dex is not supported by background--yet at least...

On that note--it's time to TF2.

Melissia wrote:two people whining about eachothers' opinions isn't exactly my idea of a good time

???

I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Off-topic:

Graham D wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Its called humor, if you don't have a sense for detecting it, it will fly right over your head. Kanluwen has a sense of humor, it has atrophied due to the kong hours of training and maintaining psychic discipline, but it is still there.
Try nourishing it and it might develop into something that will make you laugh.

No, what you have there is a collection of mildly offensive words. A joke, by definition, is actually funny. This is neither, both by its extreme age and by its offensive tone.

It would be like trying to defend a watermelon joke to a black poster as unoffensive and cutting-edge humour. If you have anything else to say directly to me on this matter, I'll take it up with you in private. Otherwise, there is nothing more here with any relevance to the topic at hand.

Now this and the entire sequence is hilarious to me. It is funny on three different levels of Irony.

1) Why, because there is a big strong pc nazi trying to protect the wemens folk from sexism. Do you get it? Your actions are by attempting to come to the"ladies" rescue is by definition the highest level of sexist behavior. A truly more evolutionized male would let the handle their own battles. I have no doubt about the ability of any of the "ladies" on this thread's ability to stand up for themselves.

2)That you are trying to protect "female" posters whom are statistically more likely to be guys role-playing a character on the web than they are to be females playing 40K.

3)Finally, your post brought unwanted tension into a thread that was proceeding smoothly. I took your post and played the roll of the bufoon(Yes, I do it quite well, I know.) in order to bring the tone back to a less tense level. I left you an out and you respond with the above post. I find this entire sequence highly amusing.


On-Topic:

@Manchu- I know the connection between the ecclesiarchy and the ministorum but there is a bit of a disconnect. If GW re-writes the fluff, removing the "everywhere there are ecclessiarchy there are Sisters", and makes them a more general force, do you think this would remove some of the sister problems with being a bit to narrowly focused?

focusedfire wrote:@Manchu- I know the connection between the ecclesiarchy and the ministorum but there is a bit of a disconnect. If GW re-writes the fluff, removing the "everywhere there are ecclessiarchy there are Sisters", and makes them a more general force, do you think this would remove some of the sister problems with being a bit to narrowly focused?

The idea that Sisters are narrowly focused as written in C:WH (I mean in crunch capabilities) is a great point that merits more discussion here. The general line as someone may have already brought up is that Sisters currently do okay against a couple of opponents and poorly against the rest. I don't know if that's terribly well established but it seems clear to me that Sisters do need more "coverage." My argument is that restructuring the book to focus on them (as opposed to Inq or Ecc) is the best way to lead them into getting that coverage--which will of course involve giving them new units. But I don't think a fluff-redux separating them from the Ecclesiarchy will help accomplish that. As Melissa said elsewhere, the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy go hand-in-hand.

Manchu wrote:My counter to him was that there is no reason for SoB to be the dex from which an Ordo Hereticus army (whatever that is) should be made any more than SM or IG--which Inqusitors can just as easily conscript. No responses on that line of argument for a long time and I think only 1hadhq has really added much that's on-topic (at least what I intended "on-topic" to mean) since that point.

My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

First off, this OH army: what is it?

Manchu wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

First off, this OH army: what is it?

Hypothetical Witchhunters Army: GO

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor

Ordo Hereticus Wargear

Freaky Elites units

Stormtroopers or equivilant units

FREAKY FAST ATTACK

FREAKY HEAVY SUPPORTTTTTTT

it's basically an OH inquistor and retinue scaled up to 40k. In all likelyhood it'll just be a modelling project, but if it turns out that it's a viable army, I'd honestly prefer not to have to burn X amount of points on whatever the minimum would be to get the mandatory sisters stuff out of the way. The required units in and of themselves don't increase the number of different options that the codex has, they just restrict the choices the player can make.

It sounds like what you really want is an Inquisition book (whether combined or Hereticus, I can't say). I'm cool with that. But Sisters have no place in it. No more a place, that is, than Space Marines or Imperial Guard. Deathwatch would definitely be in. GK . . . that's a trickier question but they fit the bill a lot better than Sisters. The problem with what you've just posted is, of course, that there aren't existing choices for most of the slots much less the one or two choices that you'd really need to have a dex. That's why they got tacked onto the Sisters in the first place. (And, thankfully for them, why the SoB and GK made it into 3rd at all, it seems.)

Bottom line: Sisters should be much more than a gap-filler for an incomplete Inquisition codex.

For the OH, we can add in arbities. So we could have your standard arbities with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version arbities (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Lemn Rushes. The arbities could fill in the gap left by the sisters.

Manchu wrote:I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Just because a unit didn't exist before doesn't make it unfluffy. What matters is if it fits into the theme of the army. Take Thunderfire Cannons, for example-- they didn't exist before fifth edition, but because they're compact and sturdy enough to be drop podded, they are able to be quickly deployed for short-ranged artillery support, and therefor fit within the Marine concept. I believe every single one of the units in my codex do fit within the theme of the army, or I wouldn't have added them in the first place.

And yes, people HAVE tried to argue that Thunderfire Cannons are unfluffy, by the way.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Just because a unit didn't exist before doesn't make it unfluffy. What matters is if it fits into the theme of the army. Take Thunderfire Cannons, for example-- they didn't exist before fifth edition, but because they're compact and sturdy enough to be drop podded, they are able to be quickly deployed for short-ranged artillery support, and therefor fit within the Marine concept.

And yes, people HAVE tried to argue that Thunderfire Cannons are unfluffy, by the way.

I thought they stole the thundefire cannon from the squats?

Dunno, I don't have C:SM, but I doubt it. My point was that they add in new units and concepts every edition, units and concepts that didn't exist before.

@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

Well I don't know if it is worth anything but in the same section(Defenders of the Imperium) on the next page(page 122) of the BRB, the Grey Knights are made to sound like they are the Inquisition.

This combined with the previous point about the Sisters in that section, it does sound like there will be a distancing between the two armies.


Does anyone have background that gives hints to ministorum forces other than the Ecclesiarchy, Storm troopers, Sisters? Leave out the GK and the =I= and what do you have left?

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

They are equipped well engough to fight a minor war.
A single precinct courthouse functions as a base for a complete and fully-equipped army, capable of fielding vehicles, including Rhinos, Chimeras and even Leman Russ tanks as required.

Even if the Arbites were a more coherent force, sticking them with the Inq would just be a repeat of what was done to the Sisters. The core of the Inq problem is that they just aren't an army. At most, they are a HQ choice with one troops choice--until a whole codex is invented for them.

focusedfire wrote:Well I don't know if it is worth anything but in the same section(Defenders of the Imperium) on the next page(page 122) of the BRB, the Grey Knights are made to sound like they are the Inquisition.

This combined with the previous point about the Sisters in that section, it does sound like there will be a distancing between the two armies.


Does anyone have background that gives hints to Ministorum forces other than the Ecclesiarchy, Storm troopers, Sisters? Leave out the GK and the =I= and what do you have left?

The Ecclesiarchy=Adeptus Ministorum so there's no real "forces" there--along with Grey Knights not falling under their purview anyways.

But pretty much all the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have:
Frateris Militia
Schola Progenium and an amount of what they produce. They're not allowed to maintain Stormtroopers, since that would be having an organized military force consisting of males. Which is a big no-no because of the Frateris Templar and the Vandire shenanigans.
Sisters of Battle.

That's it for their forces, at least officially. I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.


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Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

They are equipped well engough to fight a minor war.
A single precinct courthouse functions as a base for a complete and fully-equipped army, capable of fielding vehicles, including Rhinos, Chimeras and even Leman Russ tanks as required.

Hahaha what?

No, they're really not. They're equipped to put down small Cult actions, at best. Anything more and the PDF has to get involved.

They, by the by, do not have Leman Russes.

Kanluwen wrote:
Hahaha what?

No, they're really not. They're equipped to put down small Cult actions, at best. Anything more and the PDF has to get involved.

They, by the by, do not have Leman Russes.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Arbites

This says other wise.

Manchu wrote:You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.

Actually that's the Frateris Militia.


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Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you. Congratulations.

Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

The Frateris Militia is, technically, male servants of the ecclesiarchy . initiates, priests, choir boys, etc.


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Manchu wrote:Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Oh yes you are. Unless you're going to try and claim you know exactly what GW has in mind, you are working with your OWN ideas on how they are and how they should be. And if you DO want to claim that, insert lol here.


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Kanluwen wrote:Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

But they can purchase them. THey don't need as many as the Guard does.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.

Actually that's the Frateris Militia.

Technically, but they theoretically could get particularly zealous Imperial Guard regiments to come to their aid.



[quote=Manchu

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you. Congratulations.Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Melissia:
Manchu is using what, currently, is the Sisters of Battle's order of battle. Notice: there's no bikers, no ninja Sisters, no Marksman Bolters, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

Arbities are not PDF. Get your facts straight.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/PDF

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

Arbities are not PDF. Get your facts straight.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/PDF

No friggin' crap, sherlock.

The Adeptus Arbites, however, would not have access to bloody Leman Russes.

Kanluwen wrote:
No friggin' crap, sherlock.

The Adeptus Arbites, however, would not have access to bloody Leman Russes.

Then why where you talking about PDF? Cause I wasn't.
Now I have given sources to say that they do. Yet you fail to provide any sources.

Kanluwen wrote:Manchu is using what, currently, is the Sisters of Battle's order of battle. Notice: there's no bikers, no ninja Sisters, no Marksman Bolters, etc.

And I would believe that this matters, why? What fits within the Sisters != only what's present in C:WH. Manchu made a claim otherwise.

Oh and as a sidenote?

The "Leman Russes" bit comes from Ian Watson's crummy Jaq Draco book series.

Y'know, the only novels in the Black Library catalogue that still acknowledge Squats as existing.


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Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Manchu is using what, currently, is the Sisters of Battle's order of battle. Notice: there's no bikers, no ninja Sisters, no Marksman Bolters, etc.

And I would believe that this matters, why? What fits within the Sisters != only what's present in C:WH.

So let's throw out every other source of background material that's built up the Sisters as exactly what is presented in C:WH, since it doesn't fit your view?

No dice.

Melissia wrote:Oh yes you are. Unless you're going to try and claim you know exactly what GW has in mind, you are working with your OWN ideas on how they are and how they should be. And if you DO want to claim that, insert lol here.

Kanluwen wrote:Manchu is using what, currently, is the Sisters of Battle's order of battle. Notice: there's no bikers, no ninja Sisters, no Marksman Bolters, etc.

Ah, there you go. I'll sharpen the point a bit. I'm starting with the premise: Sisters need strengthening and the main problem is having to share their dex. But they are part of the Ecclesiarchy and losing those kinds of units would be a shame and not true to their fluff. So what I'm working on is how to keep the freaks and still make it a Sisters-focused dex. What you're doing is inventing specific units.

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
No friggin' crap, sherlock.

The Adeptus Arbites, however, would not have access to bloody Leman Russes.

Then why where you talking about PDF? Cause I wasn't.
Now I have given sources to say that they do. Yet you fail to provide any sources.

Do I need to say this in French or something?

The Adeptus Arbites would not have access to something such as a Leman Russ because of the fact that Leman Russes are earmarked for Imperial Guard regiments.

At best, they would have some sort of local AFV such as the Usurper or Reaver patterns that were made on Urdesh. Y'know, the kind of equipment that you see in PDF regiments.

Kanluwen wrote:So let's throw out every other source of background material that's built up the Sisters as exactly what is presented in C:WH, since it doesn't fit your view?

No dice.

No, because that idea is stupid. Stop acting like Sisters have no room for expansion beyond C:WH's current army list, because I don't buy that for an instant.


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Manchu wrote:So what I'm working on is how to keep the freaks and still make it a Sisters-focused dex. What you're doing is inventing specific units.

No, what I did was make the Sisters/Ecclesiarchy into a fifth edition army book. What you're doing is trying to create a third edition army book .

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/The_Adeptus_Arbites
Here is another source that agrees with me.
Shall I go find more?

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So let's throw out every other source of background material that's built up the Sisters as exactly what is presented in C:WH, since it doesn't fit your view?

No dice.

No, because that idea is stupid. Stop acting like Sisters have no room for expansion beyond C:WH's current army list, because I don't buy that for an instant.

I'm not saying that or acting like that, Melissia.

If they're going to be expanded, it will most likely be in the direction that they're already established in. As a short ranged force that specializes in flame based weaponry and can have Inquisitorial support.

... which does not contradict anything I have put into my codex, save that I removed the Inquisition with a note that I would want the Inquisition put into their own codex along with the allies rules so that the codex can be balanced around allies WITHOUT trying to balance the Sisters around having Inquisition units in the codex.

Melissia wrote:Stop acting like Sisters have no room for expansion beyond C:WH's current army list, because I don't buy that for an instant.

No one is saying that. You're arguing with no one as far as that's concerned.

Melissa wrote:No, what I did was make the Sisters/Ecclesiarchy into a fifth edition army book. What you're doing is trying to create a third edition army book .

No, what you did is make a fandex. What I'm doing is considering how to re-establish a product line.

Necrosis wrote:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/The_Adeptus_Arbites
Here is another source that agrees with me.
Shall I go find more?

Which again uses Ian Watson's "Chaos Child" as a reference source.

Thus: Your point is moot. Especially if you didn't know that Leman Russes are earmarked for Imperial Guard regiments, or that the "army" that the Adeptus Arbites can field is their elite so called "Suppression Squads".

@Necrosis: 40k wikis are not legitimate sources.

The only one that would "technically" count as a legit source is Lexicanum, but even then it's sketchy because they do nothing but collate all the sources available across all editions.

Manchu wrote:No one is saying that. You're arguing with no one as far as that's concerned.

Except for those whom aretrying to claim that my codex does not utilize the Sisters' core concepts and themes becuase it adds in new units.

Which, by the way, you did claim.

Manchu wrote:No, what you did is make a fandex. What I'm doing is considering how to re-establish a product line.

And you are failing, because your suggestion does not fit in with the current edition.

Then I suggest you all read Shira Calpurnia novels? They are mention there.
Also try Execution Hour and Nightbringer.

Lex is the only one that I look at. But Lex does make a lot of assumptions between the statements that they can cite.

pretre wrote:I think it's the first time in weeks we haven't been trying to cut each other.

DAMN YOU! You see what you did, saying that?

Necrosis wrote:Then I suggest you all read Shira Calpurnia novels? They are mention there.

I really look forward to this coming out actually!


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Melissia wrote:Except for those whom aretrying to claim that my codex does not utilize the Sisters' core concepts and themes becuase it adds in new units. Which, by the way, you did claim.

Nope. What I did was claim that your invented units do not match the core concept. (You got it backwards.)

Manchu wrote:And you are failing, because your suggestion does not fit in with the current edition.

FINALLY, on-topic. How do you mean?

Necrosis wrote:Then I suggest you all read Shira Calpurnia novels? They are mention there.
Also try Execution Hour and Nightbringer.

Notice the ones you're discussing.

The Shira Calpurnia books? They're supposedly taking place on a major portworld of importance to the Imperial Navy. Of course they're going to have better equipment, just out of the location.

Execution Hour I saw no reference of Adeptus Arbites Leman Russes, at all.

. . . nevermind . . . I was getting Traitor's Hand confused with the EXCELLENT (but totally discredited) Inquisition Wars series . . .

They've never had them anywhere I've seen, other than "Chaos Child".

But they also had friggin' Vortex Grenades so...

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Then I suggest you all read Shira Calpurnia novels? They are mention there.
Also try Execution Hour and Nightbringer.

Notice the ones you're discussing.

The Shira Calpurnia books? They're supposedly taking place on a major portworld of importance to the Imperial Navy. Of course they're going to have better equipment, just out of the location.

Execution Hour I saw no reference of Adeptus Arbites Leman Russes, at all.

And have you read nightbringer?
No.
Hence why you left it out.
Until you can provide me a source that shows what they can take in their army my point stands.
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites is always a lord of terra. You can bet that they have Leman Rushes.

@Necrosis: Is there any source that says Eldar don't use Leman Russ tanks? Well, until you can find one . . . Sorry to be kind of snarky here, but that line of argument is getting kind of old.

Manchu wrote:@Necrosis: Is there any source that says Eldar don't use Leman Russ tanks? Well, until you can find one . . . Sorry to be kind of snarky here, but that line of argument is getting kind of old.

Can you find me a source that says they do.
Cause I find more then source that says Arbite use Leman Russ.

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Then I suggest you all read Shira Calpurnia novels? They are mention there.
Also try Execution Hour and Nightbringer.

Notice the ones you're discussing.

The Shira Calpurnia books? They're supposedly taking place on a major portworld of importance to the Imperial Navy. Of course they're going to have better equipment, just out of the location.

Execution Hour I saw no reference of Adeptus Arbites Leman Russes, at all.

And have you read nightbringer?
No.
Hence why you left it out.
Until you can provide me a source that shows what they can take in their army my point stands.
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites is always a lord of Terra. You can bet that they have Leman Russes.

You know who else is a Lord of Terra?
The Inquisitorial Representative.

Does that mean Inquisitors ride around in Leman Russes and fire Rhinos out of their ass?

Of course not.

Kanluwen wrote:
You know who else is a Lord of Terra?
The Inquisitorial Representative.

Does that mean Inquisitors ride around in Leman Russes and fire Rhinos out of their ass?

Of course not.

An Inquisitor can ride in what ever he wants.

Manchu wrote:Nope. What I did was claim that your invented units do not match the core concept. (You got it backwards.)

Which, itself, is a laughably false claim, but I won't argue it here. That discussion belongs in a different thread (And you can try to argue that there if you really want).

Manchu wrote:FINALLY, on-topic. How do you mean?

Fifth edition is what the overwhelming majority of people play. If you aren't creating a fifth edition codex, you aren't doing a good job re-establishing the army, because quite frankly it just wouldn't fit in with the rest of hte codices. It wouldn't do as good a job at sparking interest, and therefor it wouldn't sell well enough.

The primary defining feature of a fifth edition codex is CHOICE. C:SM has seven different HQ units, eight different Elites choices, two troops choices (not including bikes), seven Fast Attack choices, and eight Heavy Support choices. C:IG has a similar amount of units, though a good deal of them are variants. All of this means that GW can sell more models, and therefor make a better profit.

The secondary defining feature is that they push the boundries of the codex. C:IG dramatically reduced the cost of Guardsmen, added Leman Russ squadrons, brand new vehicle variants, Valkyries and Vendettas, and so on and so forth. They added in Orders, and a crap-ton of new ideas, pushing the boundry of the codex and enticing people to buy more models, whether it be more infantry, more tanks, more artilery, their new plastic valks, or all of the above.

This idea has neither of these. It's just... bland compared to ANY of the fifth edition codices.

Necrosis wrote:Can you find me a source that says they do.
Cause I find more then source that says Arbite use Leman Russ.

What were they again? I thought it was just Chaos Child, which has been knocked out of canon.

Manchu wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Can you find me a source that says they do.
Cause I find more then source that says Arbite use Leman Russ.

What were they again? I thought it was just Chaos Child, which has been knocked out of canon.

Try reading nightbringer.

I leave for a couple hours and you guys make 2 pages of crazyness. I'm giving up.

Basically, I'm arguing that if you want to revitalize the Sisters/Ecclesiarchy, you need to make a codex that gets people to think "DAMN, I want to buy THAT!"

Well then that tells you something about the army's concept, and why it probably hasn't been that big of a draw to begin with.

Without them pulling a ton of things out of their ass, it's just not that interesting outside of the Zealotry theme.

And by the by?
Valkyries are by no means new(and it's debatable that the Vendetta is, given that the effectiveness of it was easily mimicked by the earlier incarnation's ability to take heavy weaponry--or the fact that it's essentially a knockoff of the Vulture), nor are the vast majority of the things added to the Guard list. The only really new thing I can think of is the Eradicator, the Punisher, the Vendetta, and the Bane Wolf/Devil Dog.

As for choice? Guard lost a ton of choice. I can no longer field my all Stormtrooper army because of it. I can no longer have Heavy Weapons Platoons in lieu of tanks either.


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Last part was @ Melissia's earlier post.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:Nope. What I did was claim that your invented units do not match the core concept. (You got it backwards.)

Which, itself, is a laughably false claim, but I won't argue it here. That discussion belongs in a different thread (And you can try to argue that there if you really want).

Lol, suit yourself.

Melissa wrote:If you aren't creating a fifth edition codex, you aren't doing a good job re-establishing the army, because quite frankly it just wouldn't fit in with the rest of hte codices.

You don't seem to understand the point of this discussion. I'm not asking for advice on creating a fandex or review of that dex. I'm dealing in big picture stuff, explicitly staying away from starting with a complete dex. What's the point of me writing a dex? I personally would never play a fandex or play against one. This is about what GW should do. Not what I would do if I was GW.


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pretre wrote:I leave for a couple hours and you guys make 2 pages of crazyness. I'm giving up.

Ha, this is how I felt reading your posts form earlier.

The Valkyrie wasn't in third edition C:IG.

Slarg232 wrote:

pretre wrote:I think it's the first time in weeks we haven't been trying to cut each other.

DAMN YOU! You see what you did, saying that?

I leave for a couple hours and you guys make 2 pages of crazyness. I'm giving up.

See what you did, heretic?

But it was in Volume One of Imperial Armour as an option for C:IG armies.

It's been canon since at least 2003.

Necrosis wrote:Try reading nightbringer.

Finally bought it last weekend, along with Redemption Corps. Can't decide what to read first.

Redemption Corps.

Graham McNeil is a shoddy writer.

Nightbringer, Redemption Corps is a book that doesn't follow the fluff.

Negative.

"Redemption Corps" was written as current background material.

There's a reason they're having a lot of their authors go back and rewrite their earlier stuff. Abnett's had to do it for some of the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff(specifically "The Founding" omnibus had some issues where the Iron Warriors Terminator was using a weapon option that no longer exists for them).

Kanluwen wrote:Redemption Corps.

Graham McNeil is a shoddy writer.

Oh haha, I made another mistake confusing Night Bringer with Soul Hunter. McNeill is awful.

Kanluwen wrote:Negative.

"Redemption Corps" was written ascurrent background material.

There's a reason they're having a lot of their authors go back and rewrite their earlier stuff. Abnett's had to do it for some of the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff(specifically "The Founding" omnibus had some issues where the Iron Warriors Terminator was using a weapon option that no longer exists for them).

Where going to have to agree to disagree.

Not really.

Things being currently written and released take precedence in terms of validity over things published in past editions.


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Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Redemption Corps.

Graham McNeil is a shoddy writer.

Oh haha, I made another mistake confusing Night Bringer with Soul Hunter. McNeill is awful.

If it's a choice between Redemption Corps and Soul Hunter?

Soul Hunter. For sure. It's not often you actually root for a servant over an Astartes.

Kanluwen wrote:
If it's a choice between Redemption Corps and Soul Hunter?

Soul Hunter. For sure. It's not often you actually root for a servant over an Astartes.

God, you won't even agree to disagree?
If I read a novel that says 100 grey knights fell to chaos am I going to accept it as fluff. Hell no.
Books are written from a certain perspective. GW wrote two books at the same time about the same battle but from different perspectives.
The result was the two books clearly contradicted each other. Hence why BL isn't considered fluff.

Kanluwen wrote:But it was in Volume One of Imperial Armour as an option for C:IG armies.

And? It wasn't in 3rd edition C:IG, and so quite a few people never knew about it, nevermind used it, until fifth edition C:IG. It is now an official choice that everyone knows about just by opening up the army book. Therefor it has been added in. The only reason I can get people to agree to using Imperial Armour Rhinos is because I have a printed FAQ anyone can look up for free, and the change most people agree are both necessary and balanced.

Manchu wrote:This is about what GW should do. Not what I would do if I was GW.

What I think GW should do with the Sisters is not all that different from what I would do if I were GW. But then, I believe the Sisters need more "press" (IE, a new BL book that actually puts them in a positive light for once, for example, as well as at least SOME presence in the month to month White Dwarf articles-- currently Sisters have a presence in three of the monthly magazines over the course of around two decades, which is less than one percent), more fluff, more units, more paint schemes. and so on. I think GW should do this, and I would want to do it if I were GW, to both drum up support for the army and to try and get more people into it. Making the image of the Sisters more broadly appealing while still allowing for a religious freakshow army can easily be done in a fifth edition codex with how many choices there are in said codices, and would go a LONG way to revitalizing the army and ensuring that GW sells its models.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But it was in Volume One of Imperial Armour as an option for C:IG armies.

And? It wasn't in 3rd edition C:IG, and so quite a few people never knew about it, nevermind used it, until fifth edition C:IG. It is now an official choice that everyone knows about just by opening up the army book. Therefor it has been added in. The only reason I can get people to agree to using Imperial Armour Rhinos is because I have a printed FAQ anyone can look up for free, and the change most people agree are both necessary and balanced.

Bullhonky. Valkyries were in the first 4 Imperial Armour books, including the Inquisition & Space Marine one(as an option for Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Inquisitors) and then even in the Dawn of War games at the same time.

The only reason people didn't readily agree to play against it was the perception of being overpowered that was brought about by the fact that operated as an aircraft rather than a skimmer, along with the reason most people didn't take it due to it being a Forge World priced model that was a huge chunk of resin that was overcosted.

Thank you for adding even more credence to my point

Melissia wrote:Thank you for adding even more credence to my point

I really dislike it when people say this. Please explain how this make your point better instead of just saying that it does.
Or else it seems your running out of ideas/points to argue.

Change that to "running out of desire" and you'd be right... The thread's gone on for sixteen pages, and I was in quite a few of those pages...

Melissia wrote:But then, I believe the Sisters need more "press" (IE, a new BL book that actually puts them in a positive light for once, for example, as well as at least SOME presence in the month to month White Dwarf articles-- currently Sisters have a presence in three of the monthly magazines over the course of around two decades, which is less than one percent), more fluff, more units, more paint schemes. and so on. I think GW should do this, and I would want to do it if I were GW, to both drum up support for the army and to try and get more people into it. Making the image of the Sisters more broadly appealing while still allowing for a religious freakshow army can easily be done in a fifth edition codex with how many choices there are in said codices, and would go a LONG way to revitalizing the army and ensuring that GW sells its models.

We agree on everything in this paragraph (with the possible exception of more paint schemes).

Melissia wrote:Change that to "running out of desire" and you'd be right... The thread's gone on for sixteen pages, and I was in quite a few of those pages...

One can rest when one is dead.

I'm fairly certain there's a book called "Faith and Fire" coming out late next year that's being written by Sandy Mitchell exclusively focusing on the Sisters of Battle.

So I sincerely doubt it won't be "putting them in a positive light".

Necrosis wrote:

Melissia wrote:Change that to "running out of desire" and you'd be right... The thread's gone on for sixteen pages, and I was in quite a few of those pages...

One can rest when one is dead.

I murdered thousands for the Emperor and he gave me nothing but his damning silence. Now his lapdogs yap for every life I take, while the Gods promise me the Galaxy.

Join Chaos, and the Dark Sisterhood.

Another Faith & Fire???

Manchu wrote:Another Faith & Fire???

Was there already one?

I just remember him stating that he's working on a Sisters of Battle book recently.

Faith and Fire was written by James Swallow back in 2006. It was just about the only book that tried to make Sisters into protagonists or at least somewhat heroic. Not perfect, but it's good.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm fairly certain there's a book called "Faith and Fire" coming out late next year that's being written by Sandy Mitchell exclusively focusing on the Sisters of Battle.

So I sincerely doubt it won't be "putting them in a positive light".

Faith and Fire is already out. Been out for a while. It's a scooby doo story.

@Slarg232

But the Emperor gives us rending bolters and 3+ invu saves and living saints.


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Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Another Faith & Fire???

Was there already one?

I just remember him stating that he's working on a Sisters of Battle book recently.

It's the prequel to Faith and Fire.

Well. Interesting development time then.

Swallow did "Faith and Fire", and Mitchell's doing a SOB book.

Interesting.

Faith&Fire good? It's tolerable because it's almost all we got. I feel like even that book suffered from the Sisters being watered down.

I don't read the Sisters of Battle stuff. It holds no interest to me, alongside of most of the Space Marines books.

The notable exception being Aaron Dembski-Bowden's stuff.

The Raven Guard Scout oriented novel coming out next year looks awesome to me though.

I like Sandy Mitchel, he can write a good book... if he can get it in his head to write Sisters in a positive light, and manage to do it, I think I might be able to enjoy it.

Necrosis wrote:@Slarg232 But the Emperor gives us rending bolters and 3+ invu saves and living saints.

But have you even considered what the Gods could give you? Inferno Bolts, FNP, and Daemon Princesses.

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:@Slarg232 But the Emperor gives us rending bolters and 3+ invu saves and living saints.

But have you even considered what the Gods could give you? Inferno Bolts, FNP, and Daemon Princesses.

I perfare Invu save over FNP. Rending bolters are better because you can kill terminators far easier then inferno bolts. I like living saints over Daemon Princesses cause a living saint just keep on going and going and going...

I just hope the plot doesn't involve a bunch of Sisters falling to Chaos and having to be defeated by the Sisters who are the protagonists. I also hope that Mitchell does a little better than the Cain books on this. I have to say that the best Sister story I've read was Daemonblood by Ben Counter.

Also, one of my Battle Sisters killed Abbadon by smacking him over the head with the butt of her boltgun.

I made her a Celestian as a reward.

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:@Slarg232 But the Emperor gives us rending bolters and 3+ invu saves and living saints.

But have you even considered what the Gods could give you? Inferno Bolts, FNP, and Daemon Princesses.

I perfare Invu save over FNP. Rending bolters are better because you can kill terminators far easier then inferno bolts. I like living saints over Daemon Princesses cause a living saint just keep on going and going and going...

You, like every other goody to-shoe ever, Are making an uninformed opinion. You may think you don't like what Chaos has to offer, but that's only because you haven't seen them in action yet.

Join the Dark Side. We have cookies.

@Manchu- The first step to updating the Sisters is to realize that GW is moving away from unit specific special rules and moving towards USR's and a single Army wide special rule. I see AoF as the army wide rule with the various acts being re-written to convey standard USR's.
Something like:

Hand of the Emperor gives the unit Rending

The Passion gives the unit Furious Assault or Slow and Purposeful

Divine Guidance gives Preferred Enemy

Light of the emperor gives Fearless



Make Spirit of the Martyr a seperate act for Sisters leading non-Sisters units. This act requires the Sister to take the first wound allocated to the unit, but when she does both her and the unit will receive a 4+ inv save(Just an idea)

Sister leading these squads maybe could confer the Stubborn rule.


These last two are an attempt to integrate the Sisters with the armies they will be leading. Something I feel would be very important. I think that the avg. guardsman would look upon a Sister as if she were an angel come to life and would be inspired. With the Sisters spread out a bit more and the removal of SM allies then I can admit to seeing a GEQ level army with better than normal moral and equipment.

Melissia wrote:Also, one of my Battle Sisters killed Abbadon by smacking him over the head with the butt of her boltgun.

I made her a Celestian as a reward.

Thats cuz Abby is a pansy. I mean, seriously.

This is true, it took him thirteen black crusades just to work his way up to a draw.


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focusedfire: I don't see any reason for any of your changes. They are arbitrary and make no sense.

Why make Hand of the Emperor rending, for example? That's what Divine Guidance does. Also, your change to Spirit of the Martyr is an unnecessary nerf, which I do not support.


Also no, they aren't moving away from unit special rules. What the hell makes you think that? There's PLENTY of said rules in fifth edition codices.

Melissia wrote:This is true, it took him thirteen black crusades just to work his way up to a draw.

I don't mean to brag, but I could have whooped the entire Empire in probably three. Sacrifices would have been made, and the gods would have had to have been appeased, but beleive me when I say that if the Brethren of Chains had been at the head of the crusades, The universe would be a different place.

Melissia wrote:This is true, it took him thirteen black crusades just to work his way up to a draw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
focusedfire: I don't see any reason for any of your changes. They are arbitrary and make no sense.

Why make Hand of the Emperor rending, for example? That's what Divine Guidance does. Also, your change to Spirit of the Martyr is an unnecessary nerf, which I do not support.


Also no, they aren't moving away from unit special rules. What the hell makes you think that? There's PLENTY of said rules in fifth edition codices.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I will say that my veiw is based upon GW's current attempt to simplify/stream-line the game. Some units have retained funky older rules but most are being brought into line with the USR section. Now special abilities are different but even most of these work off of a universal rule as apposed to codex specific.

As to the changes, they were a logical progression, and shifting to fit the needs, of an expanded Sisters army that is actually inclusive of its non-sisters units instead of treating these units as disposable meat shields one and two. The Guard has the disposable meat shields, Sisters should be different.

As to why Emperors hand getting rending, Divine Might and Emperors Hand were both halves of the current rending rule because one just bumped AP while the other bumped Strength. I just combined them and did away with the I 1 penalty of giving the Sisters extra HtH oomph. Makes sense and is not arbitrary when you look at it from a 5th ed perspective.

They were a logical progression

I fail to see anything logical about them, even with your explanations (Which I didn't really buy). We indeed will have to agree to disagree...I'm goin' to bed. Ciao.

focusedfire wrote:
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I will say that my veiw is based upon GW's current attempt to simplify/stream-line the game. Some units have retained funky older rules but most are being brought into line with the USR section. Now special abilities are different but even most of these work off of a universal rule as apposed to codex specific.

As to the changes, they were a logical progression, and shifting to fit the needs, of an expanded Sisters army that is actually inclusive of its non-sisters units instead of treating these units as disposable meat shields one and two. The Guard has the disposable meat shields, Sisters should be different.

As to why Emperors hand getting rending, Divine Might and Emperors Hand were both halves of the current rending rule because one just bumped AP while the other bumped Strength. I just combined them and did away with the I 1 penalty of giving the Sisters extra HtH oomph. Makes sense and is not arbitrary when you look at it from a 5th ed perspective.

But you greatly nerfed Spirit. This is not acceptable.
Changing divine guidance into rending is fine, although some people might say its to over powered cause your average sister can now kill a rhino with a bolter.

@Necrosis-The reason for my changing Spirit, aside from updating to current GW design philosophy, is because I see the Sisters getting Sheilds and will not have as much need for the rule.

As to the rending, it can be balanced in the rules. Mind you, these were just quick ideas to convey a possible direction that expanded the Sisters sphere of influence on the battle field.

focusedfire wrote:@Necrosis-The reason for my changing Spirit, aside from updating to current GW design philosophy, is because I see the Sisters getting Sheilds and will not have as much need for the rule.

As to the rending, it can be balanced in the rules. Mind you, these were just quick ideas to convey a possible direction that expanded the Sisters sphere of influence on the battle field.

Well I have to disagree. Spirit is what allows sisters to be competitive. Also why do even have to streamline them? Orders aren't streamlined, psychic powers aren't streamlined, marks of chaos aren't streamlined.

Also lots of guardsmen are scarred of sisters.

Edit: Also getting sisters to work with other armies is taking a step in the wrong direction.

Necrosis wrote:Well I have to disagree. Spirit is what allows sisters to be competitive. Also why do even have to streamline them? Orders aren't streamlined, psychic powers aren't streamlined, marks of chaos aren't streamlined.

Also lots of guardsmen are scarred of sisters.

Edit: Also getting sisters to work with other armies is taking a step in the wrong direction.

Spirt is really better than, shields that grant a 3+ or even 4+ Inv all the time?

Orders are very much stream-lined when compared with the old doctrines set up. After a Game or two we all know what the orders are and what they do, much better than the 150 variations of useless that was doctrines where game time was doubled explainign why certain units had better stats or why this army doesn't follow the sam FOC.

As for the Choas codex, 1) it is not exactly a 5th ed 'dex, and 2) I'd say that a lot of the Chaos players would say that the codex got an over-abundance of stream-lining. Many favorite units got stream-lined into being useless.

Your not getting it, It is not about other armies. It is about the Sisters in a larger role being able to more effectively lead the units put under their command. These units are their army. The sisters occupy and perform special elite and leadership tasks while the faithful masses get there chance to prove their love of the emperor as troops.

focusedfire wrote:
Spirt is really better than, shields that grant a 3+ or even 4+ Inv all the time?

Orders are very much stream-lined when compared with the old doctrines set up. After a Game or two we all know what the orders are and what they do, much better than the 150 variations of useless that was doctrines where game time was doubled explainign why certain units had better stats or why this army doesn't follow the sam FOC.

As for the Choas codex, 1) it is not exactly a 5th ed 'dex, and 2) I'd say that a lot of the Chaos players would say that the codex got an over-abundance of stream-lining. Many favorite units got stream-lined into being useless.

Your not getting it, It is not about other armies. It is about the Sisters in a larger role being able to more effectively lead the units put under their command. These units are their army. The sisters occupy and perform special elite and leadership tasks while the faithful masses get there chance to prove their love of the emperor as troops.

Faith is well done system. All you have done is nerfed them.
I want to be able to spirit my basic troop choices instead of being force to pay points for shields.

As I said you taking a step in the wrong direction cause your trying to make sisters work with other armies which goes against the faith system and makes sister less of their own army.

What other armies? Where did I say other armies?

Are you just not getting the point or being intentionally obtuse be cause you don't want to think of any thing but a "Pure" Sisters force.

I hate to say it but a pure sisters force isn't pure. Between the assasins that no one wants to let go of, the cheap Storm trooper units that help you to field a proper nember of units, and priests that could really work well with the right repentia set up there is no pure force.

I am talking about uinits that would be in the codex but are not Adepta Sororitas. Units that would be in dire need of guidance that you don't want to give them.


As far as faith being a well done system, for those that are used to it maybe, for new people coming in it is overly complex and a barrier to getting the army.

Heck, even Melissa has redone the system in her fan-dex and she seems to be the most rabid purtitan ever to play the sisters.

focusedfire wrote:What other armies? Where did I say other armies?

Are you just not getting the point or being intentionally obtuse be cause you don't want to think of any thing but a "Pure" Sisters force.

I hate to say it but a pure sisters force isn't pure. Between the assasins that no one wants to let go of, the cheap Storm trooper units that help you to field a proper nember of units, and priests that could really work well with the right repentia set up there is no pure force.

I am talking about uinits that would be in the codex but are not Adepta Sororitas. Units that would be in dire need of guidance that you don't want to give them.

I don't want assassins, I don't want cheap storm troopers (many sisters player will agree). Priest are considered faithful when they join a faithful unit.

You still haven't dodge the point that all you have done is nerf any army that does not need a nerf.

Then what about the frateris militia? What about repentia's who are not faithful?

The point of this thread is how to expand the Sisters abilities. The force you are pushing for is overly specialized much like the Tau. In order to be able to face a broader range of opponents without getting your tail handed to you, it will be necessary to expand the structure to include units that you do not want.

focusedfire wrote:Then what about the frateris militia? What about repentia's who are not faithful?

The point of this thread is how to expand the Sisters abilities. The force you are pushing for is overly specialized much like the Tau. In order to be able to face a broader range of opponents without getting your tail handed to you, it will be necessary to expand the structure to include units that you do not want.

Repentias and Militia should not be able to use acts of faith hence why they are not faithful.
Taking those units also means you have less faith points to use since you should be using those points to buy another faithful unit.
If you want to expand the structure and them give sisters new units that are faithful instead of making radical changes to acts of faith which is one of the biggest appeals to this army.

And yet you still keep dodging my statement on how you Nerf Spirit for no reason.

Spirit is no nerf but a boost, was not dodging as much as not going to point out the obvious.

Abilities built into key units that are always on, are equal to or greater than, abilities that might not come on and draw from a limited pool of resources.

I never said you would have to buy the shielding, you assumed. Have faithful units always recieve the inv. Yeah, they may cost more but it leaves Martyrdom to become something that serves the emperor by inspiring the masses as opposed to being a selfserving power.

focusedfire wrote:Spirit is no nerf but a boost, was not dodging as much as not going to point out the obvious.

Abilities built into key units that are always on (are =&gt abilities that might not come on and draw from a limited pool of resources.

I never said you would have to buy the shielding, you assumed. Have faithful units always recieve the inv. Yeah, they may cost more but it leaves Martyrdom to become something that serves the emperor by inspiring the masses as opposed to being a selfserving power.

Why don't you tell your idea to other sister players and tell me how many like it?
I bet you most if not all sister players will hate it.

Tell me how is your spirit a boost? A 4+ invu save is a nerf not a boost.

Kanluwen wrote:Well then that tells you something about the army's concept, and why it probably hasn't been that big of a draw to begin with.

All metal minis and no support in supplemental materials (WD, Battle Missions, etc...) might also be contributing factors...

Valkyries are by no means new(and it's debatable that the Vendetta is

Because the vast majority of players are familiar with IA units... Please.

As for choice? Guard lost a ton of choice. I can no longer field my all Stormtrooper army because of it. I can no longer have Heavy Weapons Platoons in lieu of tanks either.

Vet squads can take carapace armor, and cost less (and are more effective!) than the all ST army from 3rd. And being able to attach HWS to Infantry Platoons allows you to take MORE HWS than the old platoon system did. You're flat wrong on that point-- the new IG codex is vastly more flexible and provides a ton more options than the previous one did.

How many times do you get to use Spirit on a unit?
What unit size is best?

What I proposed as only an idea, doesn't limit the squad size or make you use a one time piece of wargear in order to use the power on a full squad.

But yeah, Having an ability that is only usable after your unit is shot half off the board is much better than a passive always on ability and a new ability to shield the people your supposed to be protecting.


This back and forth is appearently going nowhere, I'll go off for a bit and come up with another 5th ed trend based idea for you to immediatley dismiss without thought. Until then, why don't you post some ideas that are in keeping with the OP's set parameters?

focusedfire wrote:How many times do you get to use Spirit on a unit?
What unit size is best?

What I proposed as only an idea, doesn't limit the squad size or make you use a one time piece of wargear in order to use the power on a full squad.

But yeah, Having an ability that is only usable after your unit is shot half off the board is much better than a passive always on ability and a new ability to shield the people your supposed to be protecting.


This back and forth is appearently going nowhere, I'll go off for a bit and come up with another 5th ed trend based idea for you to immediatley dismiss without thought. Until then, why don't you post some ideas that are in keeping with the OP's set parameters?

I already have, I have made an entire codex in the home brew section.

Also the canoness having a 2+ invu save is very nice, something I don't want to see go away and nor will many other sister players. You idea goes completely against the fluff which has remained the same since 2nd edition.

How does it go against Fluff?

The other acts were merely brought up to the 5th ed standard and were hardly changed but rather given their proper USR names.

The only thing that got changed was spirit. I adapted it because it wastes a faith point on units that would probably be equipped with sheilds or would passively produce a protective aura generated by their sheer holiness.

Shifting the ability to being a passive "always on" does nothing to your fluff.

Now expecting the sister to step up and martyr herself for a bunch of filthy human trash,I can see why you would resist martyring your self for such

focusedfire wrote:How does it go against Fluff?

The other acts were merely brought up to the 5th ed standard and were hardly changed but rather given their proper USR names.

The only thing that got changed was spirit. I adapted it because it wastes a faith point on units that would probably be equipped with sheilds or would produce a protective arua generated by their sheer holiness.

Shifting the ability to being a passive "always on" does nothing to your fluff.

Now expecting the sister to step up and martyr herself for a bunch of filthy human trash,I can see why you would resist martyring your self for such

Making acts of faith being used by non sisters goes against the fluff.
There are suppose to be small miracles that rarely happen and turn the tide of war. Not just some kind of normal special rule that makes you a bit better.

The act is used by a Faithful sister to protect her charges.

Also, She would still have to follow the rules for passing the test.

If you don't like this then put her at a negative on her test or just ignore this one point if is such an issue.

focusedfire wrote:The act is used by a Faithful sister to protect her charges.

Also, She would still have to follow the rules for passing the test.

If you don't like this then put her at a negative on her test or just ignore this one point if is such an issue.

Which aren't sisters. Sisters have little contact with the outside world unless they are at war. They rely on their fellow sisters, its rare to see sisters to lead a squad of anything else but other sisters.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well then that tells you something about the army's concept, and why it probably hasn't been that big of a draw to begin with.

All metal minis and no support in supplemental materials (WD, Battle Missions, etc...) might also be contributing factors...

This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Which works just fine, unless you want to cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

kartofelkopf wrote:

Valkyries are by no means new(and it's debatable that the Vendetta is

Because the vast majority of players are familiar with IA units... Please.

Sorry, but they didn't just showcase it in IA. The month it was released it ran in White Dwarf, and then kept showing up due to them showing off Owen Ree's Mordant Sky Rats--not to mention also showing up quite a bit when the updated Chaos Marines Codex, Tyranids, and Orks were released as objective markers. It also showed up in Black Gobbo quite a bit, and was the model that was on the official GW site as the one that was used to show how to work with resin.

If you didn't know what the Valkyrie--or at least never have seen it--was from any of that, you were willingly blinding yourself.

kartofelkopf wrote:

As for choice? Guard lost a ton of choice. I can no longer field my all Stormtrooper army because of it. I can no longer have Heavy Weapons Platoons in lieu of tanks either.

Vet squads can take carapace armor, and cost less (and are more effective!) than the all ST army from 3rd. And being able to attach HWS to Infantry Platoons allows you to take MORE HWS than the old platoon system did. You're flat wrong on that point-- the new IG codex is vastly more flexible and provides a ton more options than the previous one did.

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:

focusedfire wrote:How does it go against Fluff?

The other acts were merely brought up to the 5th ed standard and were hardly changed but rather given their proper USR names.

The only thing that got changed was spirit. I adapted it because it wastes a faith point on units that would probably be equipped with sheilds or would produce a protective arua generated by their sheer holiness.

Shifting the ability to being a passive "always on" does nothing to your fluff.

Now expecting the sister to step up and martyr herself for a bunch of filthy human trash,I can see why you would resist martyring your self for such

Making acts of faith being used by non sisters goes against the fluff.
There are suppose to be small miracles that rarely happen and turn the tide of war. Not just some kind of normal special rule that makes you a bit better.

Um, miracles aren't just going to happen for the Sisters bud.
Miracles can happen for and to anyone. Anyone, also, can be a zealot or suddenly be interpreted as "having the eye of the Emperor upon them".

Necrosis wrote:
Which aren't sisters. Sisters have little contact with the outside world unless they are at war. They rely on their fellow sisters, its rare to see sisters to lead a squad of anything else but other sisters.

Oh, this game is set in peace time, I'm sorry for the mix up.

You can't have it both ways. Are the Sister pervasive throught the galaxy and everywhere the ecclesiarchy happens to be? Or, Are they convent shut ins, that whom sightings of are rarer than seeing an effective FW bezerker? Which is it?

We are talking about sisters spread through out the galaxy fighting a broad range of capable enemies, they are going to be leading other units.

focusedfire wrote:
Oh, this game is set in peace time, I'm sorry for the mix up.

You can't have it both ways. Are the Sister pervasive throught the galaxy and everywhere the ecclesiarchy happens to be? Or, Are they convent shut ins, that whom sightings of are rarer than seeing an effective FW bezerker? Which is it?

We are talking about sisters spread through out the galaxy fighting a broad range of capable enemies, they are going to be leading other units.

When not in the battle field sisters will have little contact with the outside world, even with other orders.
Do you even have any sources to support your points?

Sources to support the brainstorming ideas for a theoretical codex that has yet to be written?

Yeah, let me just pull them right out of the warp, here ya go.:b

C'mon get serious. There are no sources for a book yet to be written.

What we do have, is a new fluff blurb in the BRB and an old one in an outdated codex. If we go with the old one then the sisters are pervasive to the point that sightings would be regular and common place.

You might argue that they only come out during times of war. Well this is grimdark 40K where there is only war.

If you argue the new fluff blurb then you accepted the broader use that is mentioned in the paragragh. So again the point leans toward my side of the debate.

focusedfire wrote:Sources to support the brainstorming ideas for a theoretical codex that has yet to be written?

Yeah, let me just pull them right out of the warp, here ya go.:b

C'mon get serious. There are no sources for a book yet to be written.

What we do have, is a new fluff blurb in the BRB and an old one in an outdated codex. If we go with the old one then the sisters are pervasive to the point that sightings would be regular and common place.

You might argue that they only come out during times of war. Well this is grimdark 40K where there is only war.

If you argue the new fluff blurb then you accepted the broader use that is mentioned in the paragragh. So again the point leans toward my side of the debate.

It's in the current codex.
Your making changes that are going to piss off every single sister player.
Your making changes that goes radically against the fluff.
All you have done is nerf them. You've reduce their invu save and have made the Canoness lose what made her excellent in close combat.

Kanluwen wrote:
This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Except there isn't even that in Battle Missions (if you're going to be rude and condescending, at least get your facts straight). But, more to the point, why should a whole army get lumped in together with others in any supplement? Also, I note you don't even touch the metal minis bit...

Sorry, but words

So... they showed the model a couple of times in WD and Black Gobbo (do they even do that any more?)... BFD. How many times did you ever see one fielded? I can count on no hands the number of times I saw one outside of IA.

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

Hmm... methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Fact is, you can field something very similar now, and the IG codex is INFINITELY better than it was in the previous incarnation. It's competitive, flexible, and allows for multiple types of builds. I think you might be the one QQ'ing over a perceived slight to your unique snowflake army.

You know what, lets just agree to disagree. This really isn't getting us anywhere. I also think the two of us arguing isn't going to accomplish anything.

1)It is in the curent BRB
2)You are not every Sister player. The others have been online watching and the thread has yet to burn down around my ears.
3)You have yet to site where this goes against fluff. It is a modification to the game mechanics but is in no way coceptually different than what is currently in place.
4)Prove that they have been nerfed


Edit to answer above post:


Agreed, been fun debating with you.

Well I've spent all day debating. It kind of get boring after a while. Moving on, what else can we do.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
This crap again?
Not every army goes into White Dwarf. Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death all had Sisters getting new stuff under the "Imperial Forces" heading. Their stuff was shared amongst themselves, Grey Knights, Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and Space Marines of all flavors.

Except there isn't even that in Battle Missions (if you're going to be rude and condescending, at least get your facts straight). But, more to the point, why should a whole army get lumped in together with others in any supplement? Also, I note you don't even touch the metal minis bit...

Sweetheart, I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Sisters of Battle have absolutely never had anything that would be unique enough to field in this regard. Just like Grey Knights or Deathwatch or the Inquisition.
They don't have mass landers that drop entire regiments of Imperial Guard tanks into enemy territory.
They don't run Drop Pod Assaults, or massed teleport strikes of Terminator forces.

Sorry, but words

So... they showed the model a couple of times in WD and Black Gobbo (do they even do that any more?)... BFD. How many times did you ever see one fielded? I can count on no hands the number of times I saw one outside of IA.

Quite a bit, actually. Seeing as how the guy who owned the FLGS ran a Cadian Drop Force and had everybody who could be mounted in them. And "every other month for almost a year" != "a couple of times".

Bull. I lost the main thing that made my force truly mine:
The fact that I fielded up to 6 Stormtrooper units, each of which had a Hellgun and Carapace.
Add to that:
The fact that I could field a platoon of Heavy Weapons Squads(with carapace armor no less) alongside of heavily armored and armed, incredibly well trained soldiers is what drew me into doing Guard to begin with. Hell, even my infantry platoons could have carapace armor--and it was a blast to play with.

Now? Now I get a crappy Orders system, Stormtroopers that are such a joke they're not ever going to be worth taking, Voxcasters that do diddly, and lots of tanks.

Oh bloody joy.

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

Hmm... methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Fact is, you can field something very similar now, and the IG codex is INFINITELY better than it was in the previous incarnation. It's competitive, flexible, and allows for multiple types of builds. I think you might be the one QQ'ing over a perceived slight to your unique snowflake army.

Actually, I can't build anything remotely similar and the fact that you keep insisting I can is like if I were to say that you can field a Squat army.

Can I field Grenadiers? Sure. But they don't have Hellguns or even the option to upgrade their Lasguns to them with the Grenadier perk, which is idiotic.
Voxcasters? Yeah. Guess what sweetheart, they ain't worth taking either.
And as for my Heavy Weapons Platoons?
Sure, I can field the same amount of Heavy Weapons Squads. But I can't give them Carapace Armor. I can't give them diddly other than Krak Grenades. Ohhhh boy!

Some parts of the new Guard Codex are great. But they really weren't worth what was lost, at least in my opinion.

So basically...

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

As for the other nonsense, it's idiotic to think that in the ENTIRE Ordo Hereticus/Ordo Malleus there's no kind of special missions that would reflect the flavor of those armies? (in re: Battle Missions)

Sure...

And drop the sweetheart-- this isn't that kind of bar.

kartofelkopf wrote:So basically...

cry about that somehow being a slight against your "army".

As for the other nonsense, it's idiotic to think that in the ENTIRE Ordo Hereticus/Ordo Malleus there's no kind of special missions that would reflect the flavor of those armies? (in re: Battle Missions)

Sure...

And drop the sweetheart-- this isn't that kind of bar.

I agree

The First mission could be a war of faith.

The 2nd mission can be defending a holy shrine

The thrid mission can be some kind of purging mission.

A fourth mission can be a last stand.

Hell, a revamp of the mission in the codex itself even.

And the Grey Knights similarly lend themselves to that treatment. Closing the rift, gathering relics, etc.

The whole point of that original post was that pointing to poor sales as a sign that an army is unpopular is just looking at a symptom. The actual cause is much more to do with exposure, start-up costs, and army identity.

kartofelkopf wrote:Hell, a revamp of the mission in the codex itself even.

And the Grey Knights similarly lend themselves to that treatment. Closing the rift, gathering relics, etc.

The whole point of that original post was that pointing to poor sales as a sign that an army is unpopular is just looking at a symptom. The actual cause is much more to do with exposure, start-up costs, and army identity.

That is one of the problems, another problem is the fact that they are all metal.
Plus when I buy a box set of sisters I have to also buy a heavy flamer to. Meaning I have to spend over 60 dollars just for a single troop choice.

I would be very, very interested in seeing units that are absolutely nothing like anything currently available to Imperial forces. As I've said before, I've always considered the armies main brand weakness to be that while the core idea of righteous space nuns is totally awesome, designing a force made up of leftover bits and pieces of the guard and space marine armies turned the idea into something dull and unoriginal.

I would love to see the entire concept completely re-imagined. The core would obviously be power armored Sisters with bolters, but there are so many places that the army could go from there:

- New basic vehicles that don't rely on a pre-existing chassis. Wouldn't a Redeemer that wasn't just a built up rhino be awesome?

- New types of units that push the army in a different direction than the other imperial forces. Tau and Necrons (the Sisters younger brothers) brought battlesuits and monoliths to the 40k battlefield. The Sisters brought... more rhinos.

- New ways to play. New tactics. New deployment options. New squad options. Anything that differentiates the Sisters from other
Imperial forces. Someone mentioned fighting in ranks. Wow. What a neat idea. Totally unlike anything else currently in the game. I can see some problems with the idea, but nothing that couldn't be overcome with some good writing.

- A wider range of models that could lend itself to a wider variety of units. We have 5 flavors of basically the same Sisters unit because we have such a limited number of models. There's no reason that a Sisters army should follow the Space Marine model of Veteran, Tactical, Assault, Devastator. It's boring, and makes the army feel very much like a variation of marines. Yes, we need units to fill these roles, but there's no reason they should have to fill the roles in the same, or even a similar way, as a marine or guard unit. GW has a huge opportunity to turn the Sisters into the true third part of the Imperial axis, a force that looks, feels and plays differently from Marines and Guard, has a real identity of it's own, has mass appeal and an attractive range of models.

That's what I'd like to see.

What sorts of new units could we get? I'm totally on board with needing to separate the army from just being weaker Marines with a few cool abilities. The one "abnormal" sister unit we go is the Repentia and I don't think we need more S&M imagery in the army. I personally like the freakshow aspects of the army but would love to see more diverse sier units as well. Just wondering what other people think would fit well but also be likely for GW to introduce.

And I personally DISLIKE freakshow armies, myself. I like the Sisters for being a professional (if religiously bent, which is acceptable), truly elite human army.

Marines aren't human, and therefor aren't as interesting to me.

Ixquic wrote:What sorts of new units could we get? I'm totally on board with needing to separate the army from just being weaker Marines with a few cool abilities. The one "abnormal" sister unit we go is the Repentia and I don't think we need more S&M imagery in the army. I personally like the freakshow aspects of the army but would love to see more diverse sier units as well. Just wondering what other people think would fit well but also be likely for GW to introduce.

Well, I had a few ideas that I posted over at Warseer awhile back. I'm sure they'll be poorly received, but...

I was just thinking that some kind of shrine would be really cool. A slow moving vehicle that doesn't have any offensive capabilities, but grants bonuses to units around it. Something that's vulnerable enough that it needs to be defended, but powerful enough that it's totally worth it. That would be pretty different.

What about horses?

I know that this is a little out of nowhere and may seem weird at first, but imagine a squad of power armored Sisters charging into battle on shinning white horses, armed for close combat. It certainly fits with the pseudo-Joan of Arc/saint imagery that has been prevalent in the last two books.

So, a fast cavalry unit armed for assault, with rending weapons and pistols. Maybe a standard bearer? Something that feels a little more Warhammer fantasy?

So yeah... horses (which may or may not be a stupid idea). Sure, a horse is going to have trouble carrying power armor. How about lightly armored sisters on horseback? Repentia cavalry?

No, but... flying horses with wings, maybe? it's cheesy as all hell, but if done right could be totally awesome. I'm thinking less 4th grade girls fantasy and more badass Joan of Arc/Valkyrie. Cavalry/jump troops? Does that even exist?

Celestial Choir. Seriously. A squad of sisters (possibly lightly armed and armored) that generate a Doom-like psychic blast attack based on the number of wounds the unit still has. It could totally be a "Faith" attack that just happens during the psychic phase, since sister don't truck with psychers. Either a high STR weapon that does a number of hits based off the number of sisters in the chorus, or a large blast weapon that has a STR equal to the number of sisters in the chorus.

units of sisters that act as dog handlers would be really cool!

I'd love to see more female Ecclesiarchy units. One of the reasons I don't overly care for the Ecclesiarchy in my Sisters army is that the break the Sisters "all female" theme. I'd never use militia because I don't want to field a bunch of dopey looking guys.

I actually think that horses would a cool idea. If Space Marines can ride wolves, I don't see why Sisters couldn't have a more conventional cavalry unit. Only problem they run into is that they have low strength so don't make great CC units but I'm sure they could work around that with power weapons and not just turn them into a rough rider knockoff.

The choir sounds like a good idea too. A unit that buffs others with prayers but has little to no actual offensive output would fit pretty well.

Ixquic wrote:I actually think that horses would a cool idea. If Space Marines can ride wolves, I don't see why Sisters couldn't have a more conventional cavalry unit. Only problem they run into is that they have low strength so don't make great CC units but I'm sure they could work around that with power weapons and not just turn them into a rough rider knockoff.

The choir sounds like a good idea too. A unit that buffs others with prayers but has little to no actual offensive output would fit pretty well.

Especially if the horses are ceremonial, or otherwise symbolic. Horses don't make a huge amount of practical sense as front line units for the kind of professional military force the Sisters are, but they make a lot of sense as an inspirational and symbolic unit. I can see mounted formations of sisters on gleaming white horses guiding imperial dignitaries and important pilgrims through cities, acting as honor guard for living saints off the battle field or participating in parades. A great unit for rallying around or generating Faith.

Of course, with robot/servitor horses they could be both ceremonially symbolic and combat effective.

I don't like the idea of non-daemonic cavalry in 40k to begin with....

I do want to play science fiction, not fantasy. If I wanted cavalry, I'd play WFB...

Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away. It's within what GW has always considered 40k's version of scifi: a mixture of super science most people don't understand and hold overs from long dead military technology. Professional armies like Death Corp of Kreig use horses (with gas masks!) so I don't think Sisters are really above it.

I like the freak show aspect since it's the negative side of the Imperial church and it's a cool dichotomy between the "clean" aspect which is the Sisters and the "ugly" aspect which is the people either brainwashed by dogma or physically mutilated and mind wiped into service. The army can be made robust enough that it can incorporate a lot more units so you can make an entirely Sister force, with much more diversity than you can currently (I don't consider battle sisters with different weapons satisfactory) or a combination with other church units. I think it should still be Codex: Sisters of Battle and the focus should be on them and they shouldn't try and make too many crazy things but I do appreciate their presence.

What sorts of units do you want (not being snarky I'm genuinely curious of ways they could be expanding the army)?

18 page day's absence caught up on and looking at all the discussing that's been going on, I think I understand what Manchu is getting at and support if fully. I don't like the idea of sisters' cavalry much, or infiltrating sisters, but I love the idea of a vehicle Shrine/Cathedral.

I like the proposed way of using Spirit as it seems to reflect the sisters' faith being an example to those around them, and I'd also like to see sister's leading mobs of a faithful spurring them on, but I have to agree I don't think its an improvement on its current incarnation.

Also I really like the idea of elite sword (I'd also include maces) and shield sisters, maybe give them artificer armour and to keep them in line with other codices vets, 2A basic.

But I still want plastic sisters above a new codex

Edit forgot to add choir sounds good, maybe make them amplify the AoF for units within X inches?

Only problem with 2+ save Sisters with power weapons and shields is GW could forget they are still T3 and overprice them. Pile enough wounds (or power weapon attacks) on that unit and it will go down fast. The image is awesome so if they were priced appropriately I would be on board.

I'd go for 25-30 pts, and thats only if they get all the tricks (CA, retaliation hits etc) even then I think 30 would be too much cause of the T3

For the mobile shrine-- what would you pay, points-wise, for a vehicle with defensive weaponry (flamer/SB) that allowed units within 12" (?) to use an AoF without burning a faith point?

Would it be enough of a force multiplier to warrant inclusion in a competitive build?

Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

As much as I like the current faith point system I kind of want it to be gone. I have to explain it every other game and have even been accused of cheating in a tournament (apparently not very well since I lost that game) because I didn't "buy" my faith points whatever that means (before anyone asks my units had all their sergeant upgrades). I still want some sort of miracle effect but I kind of want them to incorporate it in a way that doesn't involve book keeping or rolling OVER things since that's apparently too much for some people to keep track of.

Kanluwen wrote:Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

Yeah... because units that suck are big sellers.

Compare any of the most recent codexes with any of the ones from 3e. There's a lot fewer just terribad units in the new codexes. Codex creep?

No. GW just realized that people want to play with models that don't have crappy rules.

Besides, your argument suggests that GW should, intentionally, design a unit that is over-costed in points/fills no role in an army/is inferior on the field.

Really? That sounds like very poor design to me.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Codexes aren't made to have every single entry as a viable inclusion into competitive builds.

Yeah... because units that suck are big sellers.

Compare any of the most recent codexes with any of the ones from 3e. There's a lot fewer just terribad units in the new codexes. Codex creep?

No. GW just realized that people want to play with models that don't have crappy rules.

Besides, your argument suggests that GW should, intentionally, design a unit that is over-costed in points/fills no role in an army/is inferior on the field.

Really? That sounds like very poor design to me.

I point you to the Stormtroopers, Deathstrike Missile Launchers, Special Weapons Squads with Sniper Rifles, and the Dark Angels Company Veterans.

That's just off the top of my head.

They don't "intentionally" doing it, sure. But it's what happens, and makes these arguments of "Well X army has Y amount of units, why don't Sisters!" stupid.

Not every unit is going to be a competitive unit. They put a lot of filler units in there, intended to really do nothing but portray the background of the army.

And that's my point- they should STRIVE to make the units competitive.

ST aren't unplayable-- deepstriking melta will always be playable in a mech-heavy meta. I run them in a russ-heavy list to make up for not having as many melta vets as I could.

And pointing out a single weapon upgrade that isn't widely used is hardly an indictment of the unit at large. People field SWS with demo pretty frequently...

DA got updated when...? Oh, they're the first of the 'new' codexes... and it shows.

But, my argument wasn't that EVERY unit in a codex IS competitive, but that every unit in a codex SHOULD BE competitive. And GW has gotten miles better about that since 3E (Repentia? Arcos? Grey Knights as a whole?)

/I've nothing to say in defence of the Deathstrikes. Those Apocalypse rejects can DIAF as far as I'm concerned.
//They see the battlefield in themed scenarios only

There's a ton of stuff that I can point out about DA, but I restricted it to Company Veterans. Scouts, for example, make no sense.

But if your argument is that every unit should be competitive, then I agree. However my caveat is that we shouldn't be forced to rely on gimmick units like Ratlings and Ogryn(to use a Guard example again) when we could have Stormtroopers and Sniper Teams able to fill the same role, just with a bit different stats.

I agree re: ratlings-- I've always used standard Guardsmen with SR as counts-as Ratlings. Mostly because I dislike space hobbit models.

I think Ogryn might see an uptick in usage once GK are no longer allowed as allied units. At the moment, GKT are a CC crutch that IG can fall back on, making Ogryn kind of useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think DA were the guinea pigs in the shift to standardized 5e format we see in all of the newer codexes. I know my friend doesn't run them as DA anymore- vanilla marines have more options and are better at what they do (SS/TH terms, for example).

Can't wait for a DA update... but I'd really prefer a BT one first : )

Well, for me GKT always seem like a far cooler option than Ogryns--especially alongside my ranks of fully helmed/visored, and gorgeously equipped Guardsmen. The ragged masses of Ogryn don't look anything remotely similar and it irks me.

Ixquic wrote:Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away.

Which doesn't make me give one gak, nevermind two. Just because it's in doesn't mean I like it. Technically multilaser marines are in, too.

Cavalry's still a part of 40k, while multilaser Marines aren't.

Melissia wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Cavalry's been a part of 40k since forever so it's not going away.

Which doesn't make me give one gak, nevermind two. Just because it's in doesn't mean I like it. Technically multilaser marines are in, too.

In the unlikely event that there is one cavalry unit in the new codex, you're free not to use it.

I'd actually use it, but model it like bikers. Kinda like how I use Rough Riders.

Bikes would make far more sense then Calvary. I don't think horses could support them. Then again space wolves riding wolves.

As long as the bikes looked more gothic than the SM ones I'd go with that. Its better than cavalry anyhow, but knowing GW we'll get chariots pulled by giant cherubs

Ugh, I hope not.

Just you wait, the reality will probably make us wish it was only THIS silly

Even GW has standards.

Granted, those are fairly low, but sitll.

I;m still shaking my head over TWC - I like 40k for its WWI meets SCi-Fi feel (incidentally, cavalry were still [rarely] used in WWI)-- giant wolf-riders belong under goblins in a fantasy world.

I heard a rumor on BoLS (twitter) that GW might put inquisition codexes on their site. It was confirmed in white dwarf, apparently.

Egad... I've been following this thread for a few days and been laughing for most the time also.
But then I'm not one to talk myself, considering how I have been on some forums myself.

Ok, new ideas for Sisters...

Dominions given dual-wield bolt pistols as standard (A sort of Seraphim in training mayhaps?) or all given Storm Bolters standard. (Not like they are rare or anything) All have assault weapon options, none of this 0-4 nonsense.
Dominions and Retributions merged? All come with Storm bolter as standard with all getting the option of assault and heavy weapons. (Open to flamer abuse but that's a very weak excuse all things considered)

New heavy weapon, hand held exorcist launcher: Heavy1 36" S8 AP1?

Repentia given a shrine they could maybe drag around? boosts morale or some-such effect when you stand within 12" of it.
Bring in DH's Sisters Oblatia using the old Citadel Journal Repentia rules. (they are part of a squad and when the squad is charged they will jump forth allowing the rest of the squad to hang back and open up with their guns next turn)

You were talking about army theme earlier? Sisters are shown to be methodical, systematic and excellent (Well should be) at city fighting where their short range and flamers come to best effect. But not really a close combat army. (Yes, yes they are superior to guardsmen but that doesn’t count for much).

Sisters main tactic is mostly controlling the 12” range before them but considering that when you are close enough to use Flamers effectively you lose that advantage as any and every CC army has either enough armour/wounds, numbers or both to still just close the gap and kill you next turn. You must make that one turn of shooting flamers count.
Every other army will either have longer ranged weapons as standard or dedicated CC options or both.
An idea is instead of giving more CC options or longer weapons we make our flaw the armies strength and focus.

Maybe an ability or two that allows you to potentially avoid being charged. (Auto fall-back and regroup maybe?) That is, when potentially combined with the Oblatia above and Seraphim and Celestians for Sisters own CC ability. Makes a devastating combination to control the 12” no-mans-land.

More ideas: Mobile Cathedral. (14 all around, massive flamer, melta, bolter or Exorcist Launcher carries one squad up to 20 strong?)
Granted this seems like a Land Raider but without using the same kit then the main problem is avoided.
Although, if it’s a transport then maybe shorter ranged weapons?

I like the idea of say an Aquila Lander but with more transport and guns.

Cherubim could be introduced as common wargear but not attack squads like some people have mentioned in past threads.

Horses; as much as I love the The Last great Calvary Charge of the Australian Light Horse. I really don’t think Sisters need horses.
However, if they were included in the end I’d have a lot of fun toying with the entire angelic aspect.

More ideas could be garnered from various warrior women from history and mythology.

Perhaps Amazonian Sisters trained in death world environments.
Valkyrie Sisters trained in rapid raids and strikes using power spears (As was suggested earlier).
Gladiatrix Sisters whom only practice the martial arts that made the original Daughters of the Emperor and the now Celestian elites of the Adepta Sororitas such fearsome combatants.

Deathcultists? I know the current dex has them as =][= only but fluff-wise there are Ecclesiarchy temples that’ll raise and train them.

Heavily armed and armoured Sisters that although you purchase several per FO slot they are all solo characters?

So here are a few ideas for people to nitpick. Many are not ‘fluff’ based but I after trying to think of new options that are not stolen from marines or IG that did fit fluff I kinda started turning up nothing.

I’ll be back later.

Kettu wrote:

New heavy weapon, hand held exorcist launcher: Heavy1 36" S8 AP1?

There is a definite need for some long range anti tank weaponry readily available to infantry, but this sounds like a cheap(ish) fill-in. Also, would heavy weapon teams operate like IG teams? Or would they remain seperate?

Repentia given a shrine they could maybe drag around? boosts morale or some-such effect when you stand within 12" of it.

Sounds like the grail pilgrims from Fantasy, but wouldn't this severly limit their mobility/effectiveness?

You were talking about army theme earlier? Sisters are shown to be methodical, systematic and excellent (Well should be) at city fighting where their short range and flamers come to best effect. But not really a close combat army. (Yes, yes they are superior to guardsmen but that doesn’t count for much).

Depending on where a particular order is based you could, in theory, have specialised orders. The Order of the Bloody Vine, based on a jungle word, specialises in purifying more heretical native jungle planets. The Order of Frosty Consecration may be based on an ice planet. This is just me thinking off the top of my head.

Sisters main tactic is mostly controlling the 12” range before them but considering that when you are close enough to use Flamers effectively you lose that advantage as any and every CC army has either enough armour/wounds, numbers or both to still just close the gap and kill you next turn. You must make that one turn of shooting flamers count.
Every other army will either have longer ranged weapons as standard or dedicated CC options or both.
An idea is instead of giving more CC options or longer weapons we make our flaw the armies strength and focus.

I agree completely with you here. Changes to allow for some flexibility must be made. (SoB Saintly Snipers, maybe pleez? )

Maybe an ability or two that allows you to potentially avoid being charged. (Auto fall-back and regroup maybe?) That is, when potentially combined with the Oblatia above and Seraphim and Celestians for Sisters own CC ability. Makes a devastating combination to control the 12” no-mans-land.

Perhaps, maybe something that requires a leadership test (possibly with modifiers) to charge. This isn't going to help against a lot of CC units, there seems to be a plethora of such units that are fearless and/or something or other.

More ideas: Mobile Cathedral. (14 all around, massive flamer, melta, bolter or Exorcist Launcher carries one squad up to 20 strong?)
Granted this seems like a Land Raider but without using the same kit then the main problem is avoided.
Although, if it’s a transport then maybe shorter ranged weapons?

I think I just about gakked my pants. Finally, a WH () vehichle that can take a hit! Although I think AV14 all around might be a bit OTT. I'm thinking it could possibly be slow moving transport (Monolith likem, but without the unkillable-ness?), but with weapons not disimilar to a Land Raider Redeemer.

Horses; as much as I love the The Last great Calvary Charge of the Australian Light Horse. I really don’t think Sisters need horses.
However, if they were included in the end I’d have a lot of fun toying with the entire angelic aspect.

More ideas could be garnered from various warrior women from history and mythology.

Perhaps Amazonian Sisters trained in death world environments.
Valkyrie Sisters trained in rapid raids and strikes using power spears (As was suggested earlier).
Gladiatrix Sisters whom only practice the martial arts that made the original Daughters of the Emperor and the now Celestian elites of the Adepta Sororitas such fearsome combatants.

The SoB were founded from one such society, were they not? Perhaps this could be an elite unit based from the original home planet. Or something. It's an interesitng idea, but personally I would prefer that the riders were historically mounted on horses, and then upgraded to bikes.

Deathcultists? I know the current dex has them as =][= only but fluff-wise there are Ecclesiarchy temples that’ll raise and train them.

Heavily armed and armoured Sisters that although you purchase several per FO slot they are all solo characters?

Solo SoB Redemptionists? Would be interesting to see how they compare to the SW equivalent. I'm assuming that they would be CC orientated?

Emperors Faithful wrote:There is a definite need for some long range anti tank weaponry readily available to infantry, but this sounds like a cheap(ish) fill-in. Also, would heavy weapon teams operate like IG teams? Or would they remain seperate?

Why the hell would they?

The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength more than enough to carry heavy weapons by themselves. That's part of the POINT of powered armor.

>The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength

Then why are they strength 3?

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:>The Sisters' power armor enhances their strength

Then why are they strength 3?

Because strength 3 represents a wide range of strength.

Marine power armor enhances Marine strength, right? (yes, it does) Well, Scouts, who aren't in power armor, are strength 4. And yet Tacticals, who are, are also strength four.

Also? If powered armor did not increase the strength of the wearer beyond that of human capability, it would be immobile.

Marines are stupidly strong outside of power armour as well as inside.

Yes, and? Their fluff still says their armor enhances their strength. And yet it doesn't raise their strength past S4.

Power armor in general increases the user's strength. Even civilian models do that... hell, Amberley Vail practically tossed a car at a pair of genestealers.

S3 to S4 is a rather large gap. it is an abstract gap with no values applied to it but it is still a large one.

Sisters, whilst having the strength to bench press cars and punch through concrete, are still S3.
Abstract wise, I think a Marine out of armour would be about the same as a Sister in armour but for, what I assume game-play balance reasons, they are left as S4.

For a more accurate idea, check out the DH rpg rulebook and the soon to be DW rpg rulebook.

GW's excuse for the difference is the SM' having undergone surgical modification, Gene Seed implantation, and the Black Carapace allowing for the wearer to fully interface with their armour.

There are more holes in the black carapace part of their excuse than in aged swiss cheese. I pefer to think of the difference as an indication that Good old fashioned sexism is still alive and well in the 41st millenium.

@Kettu-Sisters only have the strength to bench press cars and punch through concrete when using an act of faith or an eviscerator.

What is Black Carapace anyway? Is it the suits neural interface?

If Power Armour works by sensing your movements and working with it, you would get really fatigue really quickly from the constant, if slight, resistance.

in the day and age where every Tom, Dick and Harry have neural interfacing items and limbs (Bionics to start) yet Power Armour only has this if you have Black Carapace?
That really sounds stupid.

And Sisters, in armour, are really strong. It is the flaw of a 10 score system using d6s that renders them looking little more then guard.

GW's stance is that there is no power boost to strength without the Black Carapace.

But, what about SM scouts you ask? All I can say is, "Thats GW for you and SM's are their favorite child."

focusedfire wrote:GW's stance is that there is no power boost to strength without the Black Carapace.

No it's not GW's stance. Andy Hoare (along with a few other GW writers and designers IIRC) was part of the team that wrote the various Dark Heresy supplements, and so I consider them rather canon. In Dark Heresy, common CIVILIAN power armor (which I say is common because it's available to anyone that can afford its egregious price) increases strength by a not so sizable amount (humans, on average, have 35/100 strength, while the power armor adds either +20-- which puts the wearer as a remarkably strong individual). Military-grade power armor is likely at least a little bit higher, and also likely quite more efficient in that it has a power pack that allows it to run indefinitely.