A couple of SoB fan codices have popped up recently amid a wider flare up of debate on the subject of what should be done with Sisters. I have long been a strong proponent of kicking out Inquisitors and Ecclesiarchy freaks in favor of a pure Sisters dex. But after thinking over some of the recently proposed ideas and reading back through C:WH's fluff I think a better approach would be to keep the freaks in and sideline but not drop the Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. But I would restructure things a bit so as to keep the dex Sisters-dominated. Here's my an outline of my idea so far:

Standard Missions Force Organization Chart
- Compulsory: 1 SoB HQ, 2 SoB Troops
- Optional: 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support

HQ
- Canoness/Palatine
- 0-1 Confessor: can only be taken as an additional HQ choice, must be taken in order to use units marked with asterisked “Ecclesiarchy” units; can take retinue of *Ministorum Missionaries
- 0-5 *Ministorum Priests (as in C:IG 5th)

Elites
- Celestian Squad
- Repentia Squad (except they generate and can use Faith Points and no 0-1 limit)
- Inquisitor and Retinue (which can include detachable temple assassins)
- *Ministorum Missionaries (assaulters, can upgrade laser pistols to shotguns)

Troops
- Battle Sisters Squad
- Special Characters: there should be a special character from each of the non-Militant Orders that could replace one Sister per Squad and convey some kind of special ability (sort of like IG’s Ordnance Master, Fleet Officer, or Astropath)
- Transports: Rhinos that are cheaper than the SM equivalent
- *Frateris Militia: something like Conscripts in C:IG 5th—with two exceptions: (1) cannot use transport and (2) subject to Holy Rage unless joined by Ministorum Priests or within so many inches of Ministorum Missionaries

Fast Attack
- Seraphim Squad
- Dominion Squad
- *Arco-flagellants (cheaper and up to ten)

Heavy Support
- Retributor Squad
- Immolators
- Exorcists
- *Penitent Engines

Manchu wrote:Standard Missions Force Organization Chart
- Compulsory: 1 SoB HQ, 2 SoB Troops
- Optional: 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support

Lame, straight off the bat. SoB HQ and troops should be as good or better at what they do as the inquisitor and freaks and thus desirable to take, but if I want to take an inquisitor and freaks instead there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that except for you don't like that I want to.

Giving the sisters a fair go and making them a viable and legitimate "pure" choice: good.

Making them mandatory so that I can't play an Ordo Hereticus army without them: not good.

. . . there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that except for you don't like that I want to.

Know thy fluff: There is no such thing as an Ordo Hereticus army. There is also no such thing as an Ecclesiarchy army. The closest thing to the first option is an Inquisitor working with an independent army. The closest thing to the second option is when a rabble is roused to fight alongside the Sisters.

Manchu wrote:

. . . there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that except for you don't like that I want to.

Know thy fluff: There is no such thing as an Ordo Hereticus army. There is also no such thing as an Ecclesiarchy army. The closest thing to the first option is an Inquisitor working with an independent army. The closest thing to the second option is when a rabble is roused to fight alongside the Sisters.

Seems still a bit limiting. Why remove options when you could gain them? Fluff be darned, the game needs to be fun for everyone, including someone like Warboss Tzoo.

No, we don't need a Codex: Sisters of Battle, we need a Codex: Witch Hunters. The Ordo Hereticus have enough of their own stuff (Inquisitors, Arco-flagellants, Storm Troopers, etc) to justify having a large portion of the codex dedicated to them.

The sisters are the armed force of the Ecclesiarchy and the vast, vast majority of the time, the operate as such, as a 'pure' sisters force. They police and guard pilgramage routs. They protect Ecclesiarchy sites (not to mention impress the great unwashed with how awesome the Ecclesiarchy is). They also conduct the crusades and wars of faith.

They are also however, the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus and on the rare occasions when the Ordo Hereticus need a propper army* they are asked (asked, not ordered) to do the job.


I believe the codex should reflect this. It should be mostly Sororitas units, with nods to both the greater Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.

For example, three or four Sororitas HQ options (Canonnes, Palatine, Living Saint, maybe something else too)

A couple of Ecclesiarchy HQ options (Bishop, Priest)

And, yes, there should be the option of an Inquisitor Lord.

Troop choices too. The bulk of the army's troops should be Battle Sisters, but I feel the option to use zealots and stormtroopers should exist.

Understand - I run a pure Sisters army - always have, likely always will - love it. But they are part of the Ecclesiarchy and they do work with (with, not for) the Hereticus.


*Of the three Ordos, the Hereticus least need an actual army. Unlike Chaos and Aliens, heretics and psykers can rarely field an army of their own. your typical Hereticus Inquisitor is an investigator, a detective, a diplomat and a psychologist, but not a general. This is exactly why the Hereticus do not have their own army.

Azezel wrote:Unlike Chaos and Aliens, heretics and psykers can rarely field an army of their own. your typical Hereticus Inquisitor is an investigator, a detective, a diplomat and a psychologist, but not a general. This is exactly why the Hereticus do not have their own army.

You do know that 'heretics' are what the Imperium calls normal people who turn to Chaos, right? 'Chaos' refers to daemons and their gods. Traitor Guardsmen and Chaos cultists are 'heretics'.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Azezel wrote:Unlike Chaos and Aliens, heretics and psykers can rarely field an army of their own. your typical Hereticus Inquisitor is an investigator, a detective, a diplomat and a psychologist, but not a general. This is exactly why the Hereticus do not have their own army.

You do know that 'heretics' are what the Imperium calls normal people who turn to Chaos, right? 'Chaos' refers to daemons and their gods. Traitor Guardsmen and Chaos cultists are 'heretics'.

Yes but when that happens they send in the guard or space marines to deal with that.

I do know that. In this case I was using 'Chaos' to refer specifically to daemons (and, I suppose Chaos Space Marines, but I was thinking of daemons).

But the two instances of heretics you cite are pretty much exactly what I was on about - albeit I wasn't being clear - my fault.

Most of the stuff the Ordo Hereticus deals with are your common or garden cultists, your unsanctioned psykers, your mutant cell and apostate/divergent religion. Any one group rarely numbers over a few dozen, tops (or maybe it's just much harder to hid once membership reaches this level?). The kind of numbers that can be dealt with by an Inquisitor and a platoon of stormtroopers, maybe with arbites support.

When heresy gets really big - when a Guard Regiment (Or Marine Chapter) goes rogue, or a chaos cult gets control of a planetary government or PDF - then, yes, the Hereticus need an army and they call the Sisters in.


Truth to tell - I think we actually agree with each other more than we disagree. We both think the Hereticus has a valid place in the same codex as the sisters. I think we both agree it should be possible to build and play both a pure sisters, and pure inquisition army? I think we just disagree on proportions.

Manchu wrote:

. . . there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that except for you don't like that I want to.

Know thy fluff: There is no such thing as an Ordo Hereticus army.

Let me rephrase: If I want to field an army based around the ordo hereticus then I shouldn't have to field sisters to do so.

Manchu wrote:
- *Frateris Militia: something like Conscripts in C:IG 5th—with two exceptions: (1) cannot use transport and (2) subject to Holy Rage unless joined by Ministorum Priests or within so many inches of Ministorum Missionaries

I would love this. No I wasn't thinking on a meatshield

Cheese Elemental wrote:No, we don't need a Codex: Sisters of Battle, we need a Codex: Witch Hunters. The Ordo Hereticus have enough of their own stuff (Inquisitors, Arco-flagellants, Storm Troopers, etc) to justify having a large portion of the codex dedicated to them.

I guess we don't share the same meaning for "enough". I don't care about making one codex for both, or one codex for each. But I do think that Ordo Hereticus needs more development, more units, to be a equilibrated army by itself, while SoB are a good army by themselves. I like better SoB, and I want my army to be pure SoB. But I wouldn't refuse to include Ordo Hereticus units if they would cool enough, for bigger games, or alternative lists for fun. In the same way, if a gamer wants to make a Ordo Hereticus pure list (without SoB), he/she should be able to have more units than stormtroopers, arco-flagellants and penitent engines. So GW should: a) keep the allies rules or b) create more Ordo Hereticus units.

Manchu wrote:

Standard Missions Force Organization Chart
- Compulsory: 1 SoB HQ, 2 SoB Troops
- Optional: 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support

HQ
- Canoness/Palatine
- 0-1 Confessor: can only be taken as an additional HQ choice, must be taken in order to use units marked with asterisked “Ecclesiarchy” units; can take retinue of *Ministorum Missionaries
- 0-5 *Ministorum Priests (as in C:IG 5th)

Elites
- Celestian Squad
- Repentia Squad (except they generate and can use Faith Points and no 0-1 limit)
- Inquisitor and Retinue (which can include detachable temple assassins)
- *Ministorum Missionaries (assaulters, can upgrade laser pistols to shotguns)

Troops
- Battle Sisters Squad
- Special Characters: there should be a special character from each of the non-Militant Orders that could replace one Sister per Squad and convey some kind of special ability (sort of like IG’s Ordnance Master, Fleet Officer, or Astropath)
- Transports: Rhinos that are cheaper than the SM equivalent
- *Frateris Militia: something like Conscripts in C:IG 5th—with two exceptions: (1) cannot use transport and (2) subject to Holy Rage unless joined by Ministorum Priests or within so many inches of Ministorum Missionaries

Fast Attack
- Seraphim Squad
- Dominion Squad
- *Arco-flagellants (cheaper and up to ten)

Heavy Support
- Retributor Squad
- Immolators
- Exorcists
- *Penitent Engines

May I suggest to move any special "upgrade" characters to a command squad?
Where is the canoness/palatine's backup squad of sisters? Maybe 0-1 celestian squad + special chars + banner?

Dedicated transports = only rhinos or rhino, immolator?
Exorcists = firing modes?
Movement: deepstrike = y/n? scout move/infiltrate = y/n?

Why not just rename the Inquisitor "Abbess Sanctorum" and keep all the rules? And at once you have a fluffy all Sororitas army (without the inquisitor being a subordinate to the church!).
Even AdMech has its own Assassins (->Mechanicum novel), why not the church (see Helldorado for the fitting miniature: "Sister Eloise et Alvarro".

The official Redemptionist (->your "Frateris Militia" ) rules are very good and indeed something like a meat shield, as fitting for an unarmoured mob of fanatics (with lots of nice models -> Necromunda).

Adding Sisters Hospitallers to standard units is a good idea. Sisters Dialogous could boost morale or do something like a commissar.

One problem still not solved: With the Exorcist so much better, noone will care about the other heavy options, one problem for the nice penitent engine models.

1hadhq wrote:


Exorcists = firing modes?

I've often wished for that.

Considering that the Exorcist (spectacular as it is) is our only long-range fire support, I would like it to have more flexability.

I believe in the fluff, Exorcist missiles are supposed to be Melta-based, so giving them 2d6 for penetration would seem fitting - not to mention give them plausable hope of hurting AV14.

I'd also like to see a second mode, d6 STR4 blasts (also with 2d6 penetration) which always scatter (that is, scatter even if a hit is rolled on the scatter die). This mode would be the terror of infantry and light armour.

Personally, to reflect their status as ancient, nigh unique relics, I'd make them one per army too. And maybe give them AV14 at the front, since everything would be trying to take such a machine down.


I have no idea what the point value of this would be - higher than it is now, though.

I love my Exorcist like a daughter, but even I can admit that she's undercosted now, let alone if the above changes were implimented.

I would hope that we would get more out of a codex reboot than this. This is a straight translation of C: WH basically with maybe 1 or 2 new units and a loss of a ton of units (including allies).

So far every 5th ed codex has gotten 'new stuff'. Why would we lose things?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azezel wrote:
I believe in the fluff, Exorcist missiles are supposed to be Melta-based, so giving them 2d6 for penetration would seem fitting - not to mention give them plausable hope of hurting AV14.

I'd also like to see a second mode, d6 STR4 blasts (also with 2d6 penetration) which always scatter (that is, scatter even if a hit is rolled on the scatter die). This mode would be the terror of infantry and light armour.

Personally, to reflect their status as ancient, nigh unique relics, I'd make them one per army too. And maybe give them AV14 at the front, since everything would be trying to take such a machine down..

Uck. Don't make them 0-1 unless you're giving something else for a heavy. 1 Exorcist would force me to go immo spam.

And d6 Str 4 with 2d6 Penetration? Why add the 2d6 penetration? Just have two modes, D6 Str 8 AP1 Melta and D6 Str 4 AP5 Blast

People always want to dive straight into the nitty-gritty of inventing new units or modifying existing ones but I don't think there is enough consensus among fans about what the weaknesses of C:WH currently are much less how they should be tackled. There needs to be a deeper investigation into the fundamental problems of Codex writing before we can even talk about the details. My OP here wasn't a final draft blue print for what I want a future C:SoB to look like but rather (as WarbossTzoo noticed immediately) an idea about how it should be broadly structured to deal with what I perceive to be the major failing of C:WH--what I'll call "brand weakness."

But let's start with "brand strength." What I mean by "brand strength" is not just how well (which is to say, accurately) an army's identity is known (i.e., not trying to play Tau primarily as assualters) but more basically how cohesive an army's identity is--after all, you can hardly recognize what the army should be like if you have no idea what that is in the first place. And army's "brand strength" is the product of two components: fluff and crunch. Let there be no mistake here, fluff is the more important factor because crunch flows from fluff. I need to know what the army is like (or supposed to be like) in the background in order to write rules for it. This point can be illustrated by thinking about Marines: there are currently five different SM codices (not counting GK) but they have distinguishing features. Although they all should be recognizable as Marines, SW need to be distinct from both BA, DA, and BT on one hand and NillaMarines on the other.

And how is this distinction determined? Is it that there is a lack of assaulty-type Marines out there that SW need to fill? Not at all--just ask BA and BT! No, the distinction in the rules is based on what the SW are like in the background. SW, as a more divergent Chapter, get their own book while a less divergent Chapter like the White Scars can be played up to the standards of their background perfectly out of the NillaDex. If it wasn't for the large amount of SW fluff out there we wouldn't have a lot to go on in determining whether or not the SW Codex rules were a "good fit" for the Wolves. In fact, we probably wouldn't think a SW dex was at all necessary (or, for those who think the current one is unnecessary, your argument would be much stronger) in that case. This is partly what I mean by "brand weakness." Purely as a function of the amount of fluff out there, Sisters certainly suffer from "brand weakness."

The problem is more complicated than that, however. After all, there is no Dark Eldar novel or comic book out there but I would argue that they enjoy a high degree of brand strength. Let's not confuse brand weakness with neglect. The DE may be long overdue for some attention but everyone has a fairly good if general idea of who the DE are and how they're supposed to play--i.e., sadistic slavers and glass hammer respectively. So why do Sisters, who certainly have a lot more established fluff than DE, suffer from a weaker brand than the DE? Simple: the Sisters brand has been severely confused as a result of GW's obsession with the Inquisition earlier last decade. This becomes painfully obvious in every thread about the Sisters that most people--even some who play them--have a very shaky idea of who they are or what they do.

The debate invariably assumes two possible answers: either they are primarily the army of Ordo Hereticus thanks to the Convocation of Nephilim OR they are primarily the army of the Ecclesiarchy thanks to the Decree Passive. The third option--that they are their own self-organized and managed institution--is almost never brought up even though it is the correct answer. The blame lies with C:WH. Even the name is confusing. Who are these "witch hunters"? There are Marines, Guard, Necrons, Eldar, Tau, etc, but there is no faction in the 40k universe called the "witch hunters" (Dan Abnett's anomalous character aside). Even "daemonhunters" is less confusing--after all, daemon hunting is the primary function of GK. But "witch hunting," however you define "witch," is not the primary function of the SoB. "Witch hunting," again, however you define "witch," is also not the primary function of the Ecclesiarchy. It is the primary function of Ordo Hereticus, if you define "witch" to mean anyone that Ordo Hereticus doesn't like (which Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors might indeed do) but then why should the Sisters be roped into the Ordo Hereticus agenda over their own?

Convocation or no, Space Marines and Guardsmen can be conscripted by the Inquisition as easily as Sisters. Yet no one demands that Inquisitor Lords be included as HQ options in C:SM or C:IG. And rightly so: doing that would confuse the brand identity of SM and IG. At least no one confuses them for armies of the Ecclesiarchy--even though Guardsmen are forever stamping out heretics on behalf of the Imperial Creed while Space Marines are heard to scream "For the Emperor!" wherever they appear. Sisters, meanwhile, are very commonly thought to be indistinguishable from the wider Ecclesiarchy. This is ridiculous; it's like confusing the Imperial Guard with Adpetus Administratum. Can you imagine if people who played Guard--and a whole lot more who don't play Guard--demanded that units of Administratum accountants be included in C:IG because they are totally indispensable to someone's (never mind who in particular) play style or indeed the very identity of the Guard itself? And yet we who play Sisters frequently hear (and sometimes even say) this sort of thing about Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines.

And consider this: What is the difference between an Inquisitorial unit and an Ecclesiarchical one? Some are obvious, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or Ministorum priests for example. But what about Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines? C:WH is so mixed up that this isn't even clear. All we know for certain is that neither is part of the organization of Adepta Sororitas. Combining all of these disparate units together into a mish mash doesn't make a great deal of sense without some much brighter lines in the background than are currently provided. Poor fluff (the faction is hard to relate to) results in poor crunch (the faction is hard to play). And when both fluff and crunch are down, it's no surprise that the brand is weak. That weakness in turn results in an unsuccessful product. This is why I have been such a staunch opponent of including any Inquisitorial or Ecclesiarchical units in a prospective C:SoB.

The trouble with that is that the Sisters are in fact a part--although it must be emphasized an independent part--of the Ecclesiarchy with especially close ties--and let's emphasize here that this is an alliance and nothing more--to Ordo Hereticus. So I can't really get on board with throwing the freaks out altogether. But the idea behind my first post was to ensure that C:SoB would remain primarily a book about SoB with some flexibility to include (or not include) the few Ecclesiarchical units. In other words, the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition elements can actually be used to strengthen the Sisters brand but only if they don't get the spotlight. That's why I am totally opposed to the horrid combined Inquisition Codex as well as some silly Codex: Ecclesiarchy. Neither Ordo Hereticus nor the Ecclesiarchy has enough by themselves to merit their own book. They are both dependent on the Sisters for substance in C:WH. So if Sisters are pulling all the weight, it only makes sense that they are the brand that needs strengthening.

That said:

Necroman wrote:Why remove options when you could gain them?

It's not about removing options. It's about reworking options so that the book is more viable.

Cheese Elemental wrote:No, we don't need a Codex: Sisters of Battle, we need a Codex: Witch Hunters. The Ordo Hereticus have enough of their own stuff (Inquisitors, Arco-flagellants, Storm Troopers, etc) to justify having a large portion of the codex dedicated to them.

No, we don't need another C:WH. The first one is proof of that. And no, Ordo Hereticus does not have enough units to dedicate a lot of Codex to them. Even assuming that ones you've mentioned actually are Inquisition units, you've just mentioned almost all of them.

Azezel wrote:It should be mostly Sororitas units, with nods to both the greater Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus.

I agree with most of what you're writing but I don't know how my idea doesn't give them a nod. I also don't understand why an Inquisitor must be an HQ unit.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:If I want to field an army based around the ordo hereticus then I shouldn't have to field sisters to do so.

What do you mean by "based around" and how is that not possible above? I hope you mean more than "I want Inquisitors as an HQ choice" because I'll be disappointed if that's all.

1hadhq wrote:May I suggest to move any special "upgrade" characters to a command squad?

I've thought about this quite a bit but I think a Sisters HQ makes more sense as an IC that can be joined by Celestines than a Guard-style Command Squad. It's harder to imagine her blasting off with a Seraphim jetpack if she has to hold hands with Sisters Famulous and Dialogous while doing so.

Kroothawk wrote:Even AdMech has its own Assassins (->Mechanicum novel), why not the church (see Helldorado for the fitting miniature: "Sister Eloise et Alvarro".

The Ecclesiarchy does not have access to Death Cult or Temple assassins. C:WH makes that clear. But notice that in my first draft above the Inquisitor can have detachable assassins in his retinue.

pretre wrote:So far every 5th ed codex has gotten 'new stuff'. Why would we lose things?

As I've said, OP isn't meant to be a final draft fandex. It's more of an illustration of how C:WH could be restructured into a much better W:SoB without losing all the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition stuff. My OP is actually supposed to be the beginning of a discussion and not the end of it.

Good lord this was horribly formatted.

Manchu wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:If I want to field an army based around the ordo hereticus then I shouldn't have to field sisters to do so.

What do you mean by "based around" and how is that not possible above? I hope you mean more than "I want Inquisitors as an HQ choice" because I'll be disappointed if that's all.

Since we're talking about list-building, yes, I basically mean fielding an inquisitor as a HQ choice instead of having to field a Sister in that slot. I want to be able to field Stormtroopers and inducted guard instead of Sisters. I want to be able to field an army based around the Ordo Hereticus without having to field sisters to do so. As you said up above, the Ordo isn't an army, it works with armies. Since we'll be losing the ability to take allies, the only way I'd be able to do this in your hypothetical codex would be to first waste an HQ and two Troops FOC slots.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Good lord this was horribly formatted.

Manchu wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:If I want to field an army based around the ordo hereticus then I shouldn't have to field sisters to do so.

What do you mean by "based around" and how is that not possible above? I hope you mean more than "I want Inquisitors as an HQ choice" because I'll be disappointed if that's all.

Since we're talking about list-building, yes, I basically mean fielding an inquisitor as a HQ choice instead of having to field a Sister in that slot. I want to be able to field Stormtroopers and inducted guard instead of Sisters. I want to be able to field an army based around the Ordo Hereticus without having to field sisters to do so. As you said up above, the Ordo isn't an army, it works with armies. Since we'll be losing the ability to take allies, the only way I'd be able to do this in your hypothetical codex would be to first waste an HQ and two Troops FOC slots.

Wouldn't it be better to separate the two sort of like chaos daemons and chaos space marines.
So like one a sister of battle codex (with several ecclesiarchy units) and then an Inquisition Codex which involves a few sisters, grey knight and death watch units and a bunch a whole bunch of Inquisition units and other allies units.

Possibly, yes. But that's not how Manchu proposed that the codex would be.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Manchu wrote:

. . . there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that except for you don't like that I want to.

Know thy fluff: There is no such thing as an Ordo Hereticus army.

Let me rephrase: If I want to field an army based around the ordo hereticus then I shouldn't have to field sisters to do so.

Sure. It sounds like what you want is an Ordo Hereticus army. My advice is to cross your fingers and hope you get one at some point. Certainly Codex: Witch Hunters wasn't one. Instead it was a watered down Sister codex with a few tacked on Inquisition units. It felt poor and undeveloped and did nothing for the Sisters but hurt and confuse their brand image. An Ordo Hereticus codex would be cool, mostly because GW would have to invent almost the entire list from scratch, since the only real units that currently exist for the army are Stormtroopers, inquisitors and Assassins. Or they could do what the did with WH and simply tack the Inquistion onto an existing army, killing that armie's character in the process.

Sisters need a reinvention. Sisters need to be vastly distanced from the other imperial forces in play style, rules and models. Most especially they need to be distanced from Codex Witch Hunters. Right now the Sisters look and feel like a weird watered down cross between Space Marines and Guard. They have little apparent identity of their own, and their interesting fluff is lost in a sea of confusing Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy background. Their units are all variations on the same basic model. Their vehicles and weapons are all borrowed from space marines. The army feels poorly implemented and designed around the idea that there would only be a limited number of Sisters models released. Is it any wonder why it's never been horribly popular?

At the same time, the Sisters ARE very popular with non-40k players. The basic Sister is incredibly recognizable, and you can find Sisters fan art and fan fic all over the internet. That GW has squandered the obvious appeal of an army of attractive warrior nuns with guns is... pretty amazing.

Here's what I would like to see from a SISTERS codex:

- Fiction and art focusing on the Sisters themselves, their history, their champions and their battles. Too much of the current Sisters fluff (almost the entirety of the 2nd edition codex) is about the Ecclesiarchy. As a female friend of mine once said, it's kind of insulting that the only female army in 40K has a history dominated by (and of being dominated by) men.

- More unit variety. The army needs more then just 5 different flavors of the same basic troop. This more then anything is why the Sisters look and feel like Space Marines. Taking the space marine list and changing the names of Vets, Tactical Squads, Assault Squads and Devestator Squads to Celestians, Battle Sisters, Serephim and Retributors makes for a dull army. Giving them access to rhinos is like adding insult to injury.

- Unique units and rules. The Sisters need to do things that no other army in 40k does. Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons were all introduced after Sisters made their first appearance in 40k, and in each case GW went out of their way to try to make these armies both play and feel unique and interesting. Sisters plays and feels like the Imperium's least favorite step daughter.

jake wrote:Sure. It sounds like what you want is an Ordo Hereticus army. My advice is to cross your fingers and hope you get one at some point.

Absolutely agreed.

Here's what I would like to see from a SISTERS codex:

- Fiction and art focusing on the Sisters themselves, their history, their champions and their battles. Too much of the current Sisters fluff (almost the entirety of the 2nd edition codex) is about the Ecclesiarchy. As a female friend of mine once said, it's kind of insulting that the only female army in 40K has a history dominated by (and of being dominated by) men.

- More unit variety. The army needs more then just 5 different flavors of the same basic troop. This more then anything is why the Sisters look and feel like Space Marines. Taking the space marine list and changing the names of Vets, Tactical Squads, Assault Squads and Devestator Squads to Celestians, Battle Sisters, Serephim and Retributors makes for a dull army. Giving them access to rhinos is like adding insult to injury.

- Unique units and rules. The Sisters need to do things that no other army in 40k does. Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons were all introduced after Sisters made their first appearance in 40k, and in each case GW went out of their way to try to make these armies both play and feel unique and interesting. Sisters plays and feels like the Imperium's least favorite step daughter.

Agreed in all cases.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Azezel wrote:Unlike Chaos and Aliens, heretics and psykers can rarely field an army of their own. your typical Hereticus Inquisitor is an investigator, a detective, a diplomat and a psychologist, but not a general. This is exactly why the Hereticus do not have their own army.

You do know that 'heretics' are what the Imperium calls normal people who turn to Chaos, right? 'Chaos' refers to daemons and their gods. Traitor Guardsmen and Chaos cultists are 'heretics'.

There are lots of other forms of heresy.

A planetary governer that tries to break away from imperial control is a heretic.
Someone who trades or consorts with xenos is a heretic.
An inquisitor who offers a criminal reduced punishment in exchange for information on other criminals is a radical and is bordering on heretic (if he's already in the OH's bad books it could be enough)

In fact there are loads of things that can make you a heretic other than daemons - that's why the OH and OM are separate.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Azezel wrote:Unlike Chaos and Aliens, heretics and psykers can rarely field an army of their own. your typical Hereticus Inquisitor is an investigator, a detective, a diplomat and a psychologist, but not a general. This is exactly why the Hereticus do not have their own army.

You do know that 'heretics' are what the Imperium calls normal people who turn to Chaos, right? 'Chaos' refers to daemons and their gods. Traitor Guardsmen and Chaos cultists are 'heretics'.

There are lots of other forms of heresy.

A planetary governer that tries to break away from imperial control is a heretic.
Someone who trades or consorts with xenos is a heretic.
An inquisitor who offers a criminal reduced punishment in exchange for information on other criminals is a radical and is bordering on heretic (if he's already in the OH's bad books it could be enough)

In fact there are loads of things that can make you a heretic other than daemons - that's why the OH and OM are separate.

Including one point that Cheese Elemental has "skipped". The proper witches. Unauthorized psykers. They don't need to be Chaos workshippers to be pursued. Being a psyker and not being feeding the Golden Throne is enough.

Traitor guardsmen probably don't need the zeal of a Inquisitor to be fought.

jake wrote:
Here's what I would like to see from a SISTERS codex:

- Fiction and art focusing on the Sisters themselves, their history, their champions and their battles. Too much of the current Sisters fluff (almost the entirety of the 2nd edition codex) is about the Ecclesiarchy. As a female friend of mine once said, it's kind of insulting that the only female army in 40K has a history dominated by (and of being dominated by) men.

- More unit variety. The army needs more then just 5 different flavors of the same basic troop. This more then anything is why the Sisters look and feel like Space Marines. Taking the space marine list and changing the names of Vets, Tactical Squads, Assault Squads and Devestator Squads to Celestians, Battle Sisters, Serephim and Retributors makes for a dull army. Giving them access to rhinos is like adding insult to injury.

- Unique units and rules. The Sisters need to do things that no other army in 40k does. Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons were all introduced after Sisters made their first appearance in 40k, and in each case GW went out of their way to try to make these armies both play and feel unique and interesting. Sisters plays and feels like the Imperium's least favorite step daughter.

I think the lack of variety in mainly due to the mini's, I love the models but its not as simple as sculpting a new set of arms/whatever else like they do for marines. I'd love to see more sister's around and would add to my 1k little army if they do come out in plastic, but I don't think you need to make sister's a mandatory choice to solve this perceived identity crisis. I've always seen them as their own entity like the Grey Knights and the Inquisition Codices I thought were just a means to an end, for bringing some lesser known factions into the game and having cool models released along the way. Hell at least you get some AT weapons in your Dev squad eqivalents. What I'd give to let the psycannon have an alternate fire Krak Missile (or even lascannon) Strength mode.

But seriously there's no need to make it mandatory to have sisters in the army or you may as well separate them altogether (which I guess you'd prefer?)

DEATH89 wrote:

I think the lack of variety in mainly due to the mini's, I love the models but its not as simple as sculpting a new set of arms/whatever else like they do for marines. I'd love to see more sister's around and would add to my 1k little army if they do come out in plastic, but I don't think you need to make sister's a mandatory choice to solve this perceived identity crisis. I've always seen them as their own entity like the Grey Knights and the Inquisition Codices I thought were just a means to an end, for bringing some lesser known factions into the game and having cool models released along the way. Hell at least you get some AT weapons in your Dev squad eqivalents. What I'd give to let the psycannon have an alternate fire Krak Missile (or even lascannon) Strength mode.

But seriously there's no need to make it mandatory to have sisters in the army or you may as well separate them altogether (which I guess you'd prefer?)

Which I would definitely prefer. I know I'm one of many Sisters fans who was really put off that they were shoehorned into an inquisition codex when they should have and could have supported a book all on their own. The Inquisition (which i have no problem with on it's own) is an unwelcome guest that has overstayed itself, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as lack of variety goes, the line should have gone plastic back in 3rd edition, when they SHOULD have gotten their new codex. The primary reason for the Sisters lack of popularity is the models:

- Metal models are expensive, limited in options and hard to find.
- Producing a codex (C:WH) around an pre-existing metal line severely limited the kinds of entries that could be created for the codex. This is why we have 5 versions of what is more or less the same squad, in the classic space marine fashion.
- Choosing to not focus on the Sisters and instead do an Inquisition themed codex with Sisters options meant that GW didn't have to update the army to plastic, which meant no new style models, no re-imagined or updated army and no weapons or vehicles except those borrowed from other lines.

An updated model line would have almost certainly brought an entire new style of play, a new look and a refined personality to the army. They missed their chance and instead wasted the Sisters on their big Inquisition push.

I think a combined Codex:SoB&WH can work but I do think it hinges on good plastics, the sooner SoB/GK and preferably IST's go plastic the sooner we'll see more variety of units and improved playability.


But I'm not gonna hold my breath for it

DEATH89 wrote:I think a combined Codex:SoB&WH can work but I do think it hinges on good plastics, the sooner SoB/GK and preferably IST's go plastic the sooner we'll see more variety of units and improved playability.


But I'm not gonna hold my breath for it

A combined codex will not work. Cause your putting two different armies in one book. Meaning you have two sets of special rules and two sets of fluff. The author might become biases and like one army better then the other. His attention is also split between the two armies meaning each army is going to be weaker. Why aren't space marine codex combined? Why isn't the chaos space marine and chaos daemon codex combined? Take a look at fantasy, why isn't warriors of chaos and daemon of chaos combined? GW knows this and is moving away and trying to separate armies. The best option is to give each of these armies a separate codex.

Necrosis wrote:
A combined codex will not work. Cause your putting two different armies in one book. Meaning you have two sets of special rules and two sets of fluff. The author might become biases and like one army better then the other. His attention is also split between the two armies meaning each army is going to be weaker. Why aren't space marine codex combined? Why isn't the chaos space marine and chaos daemon codex combined? Take a look at fantasy, why isn't warriors of chaos and daemon of chaos combined? GW knows this and is moving away and trying to separate armies. The best option is to give each of these armies a separate codex.

Okay, devil's advocate here. You don't know that it won't work, because you haven't seen it.

From historical precedent is it unlikely? Yes. But we don't know until we see the codex whether it will work or not.

For my part, I think that C: WH 'worked' and did it better than 2nd Ed Sisters or Codex: Chapter Approved. (Although I sorely missed Redemptionists...) More unit types (even just for sisters) and even another army type. Just because some of those units are not the most competitive doesn't mean it wasn't good at the time or it wasn't variety. A lot of codexes didn't make the cut to 5th ed. And some 5th ed codexes have flavorful (although non competitive) units *gasp*. I'm looking at your Pyrovores and Blood Claws.

And that was a 'combined' codex. Could it be done again? Potentially. Likely? Not so much.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:
A combined codex will not work. Cause your putting two different armies in one book. Meaning you have two sets of special rules and two sets of fluff. The author might become biases and like one army better then the other. His attention is also split between the two armies meaning each army is going to be weaker. Why aren't space marine codex combined? Why isn't the chaos space marine and chaos daemon codex combined? Take a look at fantasy, why isn't warriors of chaos and daemon of chaos combined? GW knows this and is moving away and trying to separate armies. The best option is to give each of these armies a separate codex.

Okay, devil's advocate here. You don't know that it won't work, because you haven't seen it.

From historical precedent is it unlikely? Yes. But we don't know until we see the codex whether it will work or not.

For my part, I think that C: WH 'worked' and did it better than 2nd Ed Sisters or Codex: Chapter Approved. (Although I sorely missed Redemptionists...) More unit types (even just for sisters) and even another army type. Just because some of those units are not the most competitive doesn't mean it wasn't good at the time or it wasn't variety. A lot of codexes didn't make the cut to 5th ed. And some 5th ed codexes have flavorful (although non competitive) units *gasp*. I'm looking at your Pyrovores and Blood Claws.

And that was a 'combined' codex. Could it be done again? Potentially. Likely? Not so much.

Of course the WH codex work better then the PDF. The PDF was a nerf to sisters (BS 3 sisters, like that made any sense) and you can't compare a 2nd edition book since it used a completely different set of rules. Besides the WH dex did not work, look how many people you see playing that army? Not many people. It was a cheap way of GW updating the army and trying to promote the Inquisitor specialist game. This has result in GW opening Pandora box, where you have some people wanting to play Inquisition armies while you have lots of other people wanting to play sisters. The best result would be to make two separate codex's. I don't want to see sisters has a half done army again. For once I want to see them as a full fledged army.

I am not sure that the only reason you don't see many SOB armies is that the codex is weak, although that is certainly part of it. I think that all of the models being metal is a serious issue. I, for one, would love to play a SOB army but I refuse to buy an army of metal models for the reasons that someone listed above. The expense and limited amount of poses just kills the army for me. I think that a new codex, SOB or WH, is still going to have popularity issues because of the model range. I would argue that part of the reason that Tau and Necrons took off so well is that they both were released with a large range of plastic models. I think that to "fix" the SOB a new codex must be accompanied by at least one plastic set of sisters or it is going to fall flat on its face.

Necrosis wrote:
Of course the WH codex work better then the PDF. The PDF was a nerf to sisters (BS 3 sisters, like that made any sense) and you can't compare a 2nd edition book since it used a completely different set of rules. Besides the WH dex did not work, look how many people you see playing that army? Not many people. It was a cheap way of GW updating the army and trying to promote the Inquisitor specialist game. This has result in GW opening Pandora box, where you have some people wanting to play Inquisition armies while you have lots of other people wanting to play sisters. The best result would be to make two separate codex's. I don't want to see sisters has a half done army again. For once I want to see them as a full fledged army.

I can't find the Codex: CA list or my copy of the book, so can't speak to that.

I disagree with the premise, however, that C: WH 'does not work' and that not many people play it. Just based on the response to any thread with 'Sisters' in the title over the last 2 weeks, you can see that quite a few people do play it. It was not a 'half-done army' it was more of an army than at any time in the history of sisters with more units, more abilities and more flavor.

I don't know where people get this idea that C:WH was an affront to sisters. The affront is no updates since then.

Seriously, go dig out your 3rd ed Space Marine and compare it to your C: WH. Codex WH was so much cooler. My Codex SM or Codex SW from back then? Meh.

I also don't see how adding an army (Inquisition) was 'Opening Pandora's Box'... Is there something bad about more choice? Everyone seems to think that Inquisition and Sisters is Zero Sum. "More inquisition equals less Sisters" History is contrary to this. Last time Inquisition was brought in, we got more Sisters instead of a Chapter Approved band aid. This is a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andain841 wrote:I am not sure that the only reason you don't see many SOB armies is that the codex is weak, although that is certainly part of it. I think that all of the models being metal is a serious issue. I, for one, would love to play a SOB army but I refuse to buy an army of metal models for the reasons that someone listed above. The expense and limited amount of poses just kills the army for me. I think that a new codex, SOB or WH, is still going to have popularity issues because of the model range. I would argue that part of the reason that Tau and Necrons took off so well is that they both were released with a large range of plastic models. I think that to "fix" the SOB a new codex must be accompanied by at least one plastic set of sisters or it is going to fall flat on its face.

Agreed. At this point, it would be like releasing a new DE codex without new models. (Although sisters are even older.)

If you want a laugh at your army, go check the 2nd Edition Codex and look at what percent of your army looks just like that. Most armies? Nothing like the old models. Poor Sisters? 80% of my army is identical. Only changes are a couple new metal models and new vehicles. :(

1hadhq wrote:May I suggest to move any special "upgrade" characters to a command squad?

Manchu wrote:I've thought about this quite a bit but I think a Sisters HQ makes more sense as an IC that can be joined by Celestines than a Guard-style Command Squad. It's harder to imagine her blasting off with a Seraphim jetpack if she has to hold hands with Sisters Famulous and Dialogous while doing so.

I am not against flexibility in their command structure, but the Imperium has some typical builds and one of them are HQ's of
"officers" and "henchmen" carrying all the special gear ( vox, banner, medikit,...) and siters ARE one of the forces of the IoM IIRC...
So how to form a squad + HQ in your brand strengthening new SoB idea?
IMO, you can't get away without special characters like any other 5th ed codex.
SC "a" may take a different squad as backup than SC "b" then? Or forfeit the use of free units ( not taking up FOC slots) ?

Manchu wrote:
As I've said, OP isn't meant to be a final draft fandex. It's more of an illustration of how C:WH could be restructured into a much better W:SoB without losing all the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition stuff. My OP is actually supposed to be the beginning of a discussion and not the end of it.

looking forward to more.

May I suggest to think about psykers too? SoB are guarding black ships, ( in absence of SoS ), still with psykers becoming a common
sight in army lists there should be something dedicated to their role in dealing with "illegal" use of such powers.
Actually, your OP makes the Inq neccessary to counter this.

There is something bad about adding more choices. When you add more choices you might be limiting the options of the previous choices (like sisters). GW introduce a new army when they made C:WH and CH the inquisition. Think of the Mechanicus right now. They don't have an army thus we don't hear much or people complaining about them. Yet if we made an army about them, that would change. Basically if you were to have combined lets say the Guard and Mechanicus into one army, you would have a lot less guard options and I think some guard players wouldn't be happy. You would also have the Mechanicus saying they want their own codex instead of just being combined with guard.

Necrosis wrote:There is something bad about adding more choices. When you add more choices you might be limiting the options of the previous choices (like sisters). GW introduce a new army when they made C:WH and CH the inquisition. Think of the Mechanicus right now. They don't have an army thus we don't hear much or people complaining about them. Yet if we made an army about them, that would change. Basically if you were to have combined lets say the Guard and Mechanicus into one army, you would have a lot less guard options and I think some guard players wouldn't be happy. You would also have the Mechanicus saying they want their own codex instead of just being combined with guard.

This is all speculation.

I personally believe that C: WH saved Sisters from languishing as a PDF army for longer. More choices does not equal bad. Sure, some armies will be floated, fail and get squatted. That's how things happen. But the creation of new armies in itself is not a bad thing, it gives choice, new minis, new possibilities for play.

Again, go back and read my post. 40K codexes are NOT zero sum. Just because something is added, does not mean that something is taken away. Just because the Inquisition, or Tau or Daemons exist does not mean that we have to delete Sisters.

Sisters, Grey Knights and Inquisition can all exist. It's okay. All three existing does not mean there will be less ice cream to go around. There will be plenty. If some of them happen to exist in the same book, the world won't end. You won't necessarily receive less choice in sisters because an inquisitor is in your Codex. In 3rd edition, you got MORE sisters because of Inquisition. It could happen again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I posted this in another thread, so might as well here.


Before Inquisition and Codex WH, we had a WHOPPING 4 Units, 2 Transports, 2 Special Chars. Non Sisters stuff in our codex was 4 Non Sister Units, 3 Chars.

I don't have Codex Chapter Approved, but it was pretty similar. I think C: CA replaced Frateris with Zealots and gave us Retrib, Exos and Celestians. I'm hazy though. So that puts us at 7 units, 0 Special Chars in Codex: CA IIRC.


2nd Edition:
2 Sisters Special Chars
Rhino
Immo
Veteran Sister
Canoness
Seraphim Squad
Battle Sister Squad

3 Eccles SC
Preacher (Ecclessiarchy)
Missionary (Ecclessiarchy)
Confessor (Ecclessiarchy)
Frat Militia (Ecclessiarchy)

Codex WH We get 9 Units, 1 Special Char, 1 Transport (Immo is also a unit) and also get 9 Non Sister Units, 1 Special Char, 2 Transports. Big difference. Tell me that was a loss of choice or units.
Sisters Heroine
Celestians
Repentia
Rhino (Sisters, Ordo H)
Immo
Battle Sister Squad
Seraphim Squad
Dominion
Retributor
Exorcist
Celestine

Priests (Ecclessiarchy)
Penitent Engines (Ecclesiarchy)
Arco-Flagellants (Ecclessiarchy)

Inq Lord/Retinue (Ordo H)
Inquisitor/Retinue (Ordo H)
DCA (Ordo H)
Assassin (Ordo H)
Chimera (Ordo H)
Land Raider (Ordo H)
IST (Ordo H)
Orbital Strike (Ordo H)
Giant Chair Guy (Ordo H)

We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

Necrosis wrote:We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

The difference is that Sisters have NEVER been as complicated as any SM army. No list is. Compare any Xenos race codex to any SM codex. Tell me what the unit difference is. Now figure out why. Oh yeah, marines sell. Guard are the one exception to the rule of SM get more choice because they have tanks. It's that simple.

You are asking Sisters to go from 11 units to 43 units/chars in one update. I'm sorry. I love Sisters, but ain't gonna happen.

Blood Angels
6 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue. 8 Elites, 5 Troops, 6 Transports, 9 FA, 3 HS. 2 non-BA Chars.

Edit:
Guard (Just slots, not diff Tank types)
12 Char, 5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 4 Elites, 6 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

This is a little bit more realistic. 18 unit types with 12 characters? I could see that. But still a BIG jump.

Edit: Counting is Fun

SW
8 Char, 4 HQ, 6 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 5 FA, 7 HS

Sisters are never going to be as "well developed" as any other army for one simple fact.

They are not an army that is developed for frontline combat, but rather a force that is designated for purging insurgent forces.

Can they act as frontline troops? Sure. So can Special Forces today--but you don't see it unless absolutely necessary, because of the fact that it's not their designated role.

I like the sisters fluff and models but I'm am i Inq player. Check my sig for points.
That has no sisters.

Now then, If sisters were plastics then my army would have had more points.
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)
So it'll either end up Codex:SOB and Ordo heritcus gets squatted as an army ( )
Or another codex like now. That is preferable to me. As many others proberly have large Inq portions it proberly preferable to them too.
All the Inq side of whatever the next SOB/WH codex is called needs is a few more Inq chioces and a few more sisters chioces to balance it out.
So at least like a choice in every section for Inq players (Min 1HQ, 1Elite, 1Troop etc..) And at least Two chioces in every section for sister players.
Sisters however need something more variety. I do like the OP's idea of adding a member of the non-combat orders into squads for benifits, but i doubt many will see this as all the variation needed.
I highly doubt a Codex:Ordo Hereticus alongside a codex:SOB so will not comment on one.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:We seemed to have lost an Eccleissarchy unit. Plus we really didn't get any new sisters, it just the same sister copied and pasted and given a few different equipment options. I mean they didn't even release a new model for the Celestians, they just told use to use helmeted sisters. We techincally only got one new sisters and we had one less special character then before.

I want to see the sisters army as well develop as the blood angels. Just the sisters before throwing any Inquisition stuff. If your telling me you can make the sisters as well develop as the blood angels (or space wolves or any other 5 edition codex) and then throw in some Inquisition and make the Inquisition also a well develop army to in the same codex and make the codex not to expensive, well I just have a hard time believing that is possible.

The difference is that Sisters have NEVER been as complicated as any SM army. No list is. Compare any Xenos race codex to any SM codex. Tell me what the unit difference is. Now figure out why. Oh yeah, marines sell. Guard are the one exception to the rule of SM get more choice because they have tanks. It's that simple.

You are asking Sisters to go from 11 units to 43 units/chars in one update. I'm sorry. I love Sisters, but ain't gonna happen.

Blood Angels
6 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue. 8 Elites, 5 Troops, 6 Transports, 9 FA, 3 HS. 2 non-BA Chars.

That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are never going to be as "well developed" as any other army for one simple fact.

They are not an army that is developed for frontline combat, but rather a force that is designated for purging insurgent forces.

Can they act as frontline troops? Sure. So can Special Forces today--but you don't see it unless absolutely necessary, because of the fact that it's not their designated role.

Then why were they sent in to help stop the Black Crusade, then why were they sent to Armageddon. They are front line troops and if they are not, then change the fluff so they are.
If not then it's pointless to even include them at all.

Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

Necrosis wrote:
That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.

It's not an argument. It is the truth. GW makes what sells.

Ready for the truth... Count the armies:

BA - 43
SW - 35
Guard - 30
Nids - 32
5 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 5 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

Codex SM wait for it.... 46
11 Char, 5 HQ, 2 Retinue, 9 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 7 FA, 8 HS


Marines get more stuff because they sell.

Edit: And to your earlier point about 4th Ed BA not having any units. Yeah, not so much.

4th Ed BA (PDF) - 28
4 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 FA, 6 HS, 3 Transports -

Most of their 'new' units are LS variants and other new 5th ed stuff from C: SM.

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

So what if they fought Titans?

The Cadian Interior Guard fought Titans, as did an Imperial Naval Ground Contingent.

Does that mean the Navy's Ground Contingent is designed to fight Titans on the frontline?

No. Situations arise due to the nature of a gigantic invasion of the hordes of Chaos.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:
That is a terrible argument. Also what about Tyranids. Besides what did the old BA PDF have? Not that much more then the sisters currently have.
Now if your telling me you want to treat one army because one sells better then the other, well that just silly.
If you want all your armies to sell, you need to give them a nice large codex, with lots of new plastic models. That's why sisters aren't as popular.
If you were to change that then they would start selling a lot better. You keep doing a half ass job and that army won't sell as well.

It's not an argument. It is the truth. GW makes what sells.

Ready for the truth... Count the armies:

BA - 43
SW - 35
Guard - 30
Nids - 32
5 Char, 3 HQ, 1 Retinue, 6 Elites, 5 Troops, 1 Transports, 6 FA, 5 HS

Codex SM wait for it.... 46
11 Char, 5 HQ, 2 Retinue, 9 Elites, 2 Troops, 3 Transports, 7 FA, 8 HS


Marines get more stuff because they sell.

Does that include all the tank variants for Guard?
I want to see sisters get 30 units. If you do that then go ahead and throw all the other inquisition stuff you want.
If you want an army to sell you need to give them lots of new toys. If you don't well the army won't sell as well.

You're not going to get 30 units. Really.

Sisters are not an army where you're going to see a massive difference in units.
Just like you wouldn't in a "Deathwatch" army or a Grey Knight army.

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the biggest Chaos incursion in the Imperium's history since the Horus Heresy would include thousands of Cults springing up...

Is then even an argument? Also the sisters were sent to the front lines. Sisters get sent to fight titans (Apoc 2). If that isn't front line that I don't know what is.

So what if they fought Titans?

The Cadian Interior Guard fought Titans, as did an Imperial Naval Ground Contingent.

Does that mean the Navy's Ground Contingent is designed to fight Titans on the frontline?

No. Situations arise due to the nature of a gigantic invasion of the hordes of Chaos.

Guess who leads war of faith? Sisters do. Now before you say they get guard support, sometimes they don't. It's only sometimes that guard decide to join them. During wars of faith they will go an liberate and conquer many planets in the name of the Emperor. Now if this doesn't make them front line troops then quite frankly I don't think anything can be front line troops either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:You're not going to get 30 units. Really.

Sisters are not an army where you're going to see a massive difference in units.
Just like you wouldn't in a "Deathwatch" army or a Grey Knight army.

Death Watch are deployed as a squad. Sisters are deployed in a group of 1000 like a space marine chapter.

Necrosis wrote:
Does that include all the tank variants for Guard?
I want to see sisters get 30 units. If you do that then go ahead and throw all the other inquisition stuff you want.
If you want an army to sell you need to give them lots of new toys. If you don't well the army won't sell as well.

I said it didn't as they are not separate units.

I want to see peace in our time, but it ain't going to happen. We have to be realistic.

You are asking for GW to make 20 new units/models for an army that is not a top seller. To make it clear, they have not done this with any other army ever that I am aware of.

I mean, I like sisters, but you are asking for the moon here.


Even new army launches did not have that many models. Think about how many units Tau have. You're asking for more NEW units than Tau units have.

Edit: Tau - 19
3 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 2 Elites, 2 Troops, 4 FA, 4 HS, 1 Transports

Deathwatch are deployed as whatever the hell they're needed to be deployed as. They're organized as squads(y'know, like any army is). At any given time, there's enough Astartes operating within the Deathwatch from all of the Chapters that a Company, at least, could be fielded.

And "Wars of Faith" are not led by Sisters of Battle.

They are mostly joint-declarations by both the Munitorium and Ecclesiarchy. That means they generally will have Guard leading the way, while the Sisters are kept as bodyguard detachments for the Ecclesiarchy members who take to the field.

The exception to the rule is when the Ecclesiarchy decides to call what amounts to a minor skirmish for the Guard a "War of Faith".

GW said they went overboard with the Inquisition. They said the Inquisition will take a back seat and that they will focus on the militant arm. They have also denied a combined codex and say it won't happen. Which means were going to see a lot of new sister units when they get redone.

As for Tau, they do need an update and when they get an update I expect them to get tons of new units. GW has been adding tons of new stuff to 5 edition codex's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Deathwatch are deployed as whatever the hell they're needed to be deployed as. They're organized as squads(y'know, like any army is). At any given time, there's enough Astartes operating within the Deathwatch from all of the Chapters that a Company, at least, could be fielded.

And "Wars of Faith" are not led by Sisters of Battle.

They are mostly joint-declarations by both the Munitorium and Ecclesiarchy. That means they generally will have Guard leading the way, while the Sisters are kept as bodyguard detachments for the Ecclesiarchy members who take to the field.

The exception to the rule is when the Ecclesiarchy decides to call what amounts to a minor skirmish for the Guard a "War of Faith".

Give me a reference cause my codex say other wise.

Necrosis wrote:GW said they went overboard with the Inquisition. They said the Inquisition will take a back seat and that they will focus on the militant arm. They have also denied a combined codex and say it won't happen. Which means were going to see a lot of new sister units when they get redone.

As for Tau, they do need an update and when they get an update I expect them to get tons of new units. GW has been adding tons of new stuff to 5 edition codex's.

Adding new stuff and overboard with Inquisition does not equal tripling the size of the codex. No codex got that much growth in 5th.

Again, I would love it if they managed to stretch the fluff for sisters to make that work, but that is a COMPLETE reenvisioning of the army and a retcon as to what they do and have as part of their org.

Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

pretre wrote:Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

Now then, this pure guesswork but lemmem guess....no Inquisition at all?

Assumiing those new units are based on existing fluff, Gw will make new fluff for some new units as All fluff is changeable when the hell they want to.

Going just with the 26 units, add in an option in each FoC slot for Inq units that makes 31. About the right size with other codexs i think.

VikingScott wrote:

pretre wrote:Even Melissia's Fandex (which is way huge) only has 26 units in it (28 with unfinished stuff)

5 HQ, 1 Retinue, 3 Char, 3 Elites, 2 Troops, 5 FA, 4 Heavy, 3 Transports

And that has what I consider some pretty big leaps from the fluff/history.

Now then, this pure guesswork but lemmem guess....no Inquisition at all?

Assumiing those new units are based on existing fluff, Gw will make new fluff for some new units as All fluff is changeable when the hell they want to.

Going just with the 26 units, add in an option in each FoC slot for Inq units that makes 31. About the right size with other codexs i think.

No inquisition but lots of new stuff.

Chars - Celestine, Praxedes*, Atraea *
HQ- Heroine, Angelis Imperial (Battle Leader)*, Priestess of the Machine *+, High Priestess *, Priestess *
Retinue - Crusaders *
Elite - Celestians, Repentia, Vindictor*+
Troops - BS Squad, Novices*
FA - Conflagarator*, Cult of the Blazing Sun *+, Dominions, Seraphim, Sisters of the Nightflame*+
Heavy - Exorcist, Leman Russ Vengeance +*, Penitent Engines, Retributors
Transports - Immo, Rhino, Dropship*

In Development - Zealots*, Frateris*, Hierophant Tank*


* = New unit
+ = New to fluff or departure from canon

I'm not saying it can't be done, but that is 6 units that don't exist in fluff.

Models would need to be made for Vindictors (metal add to plastic BS kit), Conflagarator and LR Vengeance, Cult of the Blazing Sun (Sisters on Bikes), Nightflame, Dropship, etc. (or not based on recent events with Stormraven and Wolves)

So:
2 Vehicles
Plastic Sisters
3-8 Upgrade Kits
Tons of Metal for Chars.

Doable? Sure. Unlikely? Yes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Much more realistically, I see them taking the C: WH List and adding about 2-4 units (with models) to sisters with a ton of special characters (based off old models, Praxedes, Uriah, etc) as well as fixing the glaring holes and updating the basic troop to plastic

Something Heavy, something mid range and something assaulty is my guess.

And including WH Inquisition with IST and Inducted Guard included directly in the codex.

That is what I think will actually happen, not wishlisting.

I know the OP is leaning towards A SoB dominant codex, but I want to ask something.

Who is to say that a combined Forces of the Imperium Codex would be bad in any way than our personal prejudices on the matter would make it seem so?
Maybe some of us are just afraid of change.


Lets look at the weaknesses/problems of the current Codices for WH & DH. People say that they are not common because of the cost of making a force out of pewter models. While this may be a factor I believe the real reason is that the armies are overly specialized. Other pewter heavy armies have sold well but each of these armies are a huge investment for an army that performs best against a limited nimber of armies.

The level of specialization has made both the WH & DH armies only about half of a full army when they are seperated and viewed individually. Yes, you can field effective Sisters or Grey Knight builds but they are limited in scope and flexibility.

Next, If GW makes either the Sisters or the Grey Knights a stand alone army, then they are pretty much forced to do the same with the other. This would be a massive undertaking as they would have to do both armies at the same time and would have to do simultaneous releases because of the Allies rules. I don't see GW investing that much in resources into two armies when they can get a better profit ratio on combining them.

As to what a combined Codex would be like? Pretty much like the rest of 5th ed codices, a rework of the fluff, slight loss of individual flavor in exchage for a more comprehensive army.

I think it possible for a combined Codex to keep all current Grey Knight and Adeptus Soritus units while incoporating greatly improved Stormtroopers and Ecclesiarchy units. Each can keep their individual back story but are veiwed as foces that do not fit into the SM or IG positions as being always on the frontlines. Because their primary purpose is not as front-line combatants they fall into this third catch all description.

Any new units in a Combined codex will probably be some sort of Faithfull mob unit and increased vehicle options. The existing units will keep most of their special rules so that you will/can build your army one way or the other and the Inquisitors will be amplified in equipment(power armour standard), stats(Faithful endurance gives them T 4-5), and increased command abilities to provide a third combined force option.


I'm posting this because I'm not a big fan of casually dismising an idea untill I see how it might theoretically work. Sorry if this has been a bit of a de-rail.

focusedfire wrote:I know the OP is leaning towards A SoB dominant codex, but I want to ask something.

Who is to say that a combined Forces of the Imperium Codex would be bad in any way than our personal prejudices on the matter would make it seem so?
Maybe some of us are just afraid of change.


Lets look at the weaknesses/problems of the current Codices for WH & DH. People say that they are not common because of the cost of making a force out of pewter models. While this may be a factor I believe the real reason is that the armies are overly specialized. Other pewter heavy armies have sold well but each of these armies are a huge investment for an army that performs best against a limited nimber of armies.

The level of specialization has made both the WH & DH armies only about half of a full army when they are seperated and viewed individually. Yes, you can field effective Sisters or Grey Knight builds but they are limited in scope and flexibility.

Next, If GW makes either the Sisters or the Grey Knights a stand alone army, then they are pretty much forced to do the same with the other. This would be a massive undertaking as they would have to do both armies at the same time and would have to do simultaneous releases because of the Allies rules. I don't see GW investing that much in resources into two armies when they can get a better profit ratio on combining them.

As to what a combined Codex would be like? Pretty much like the rest of 5th ed codices, a rework of the fluff, slight loss of individual flavor in exchage for a more comprehensive army.

I think it possible for a combined Codex to keep all current Grey Knight and Adeptus Soritus units while incoporating greatly improved Stormtroopers and Ecclesiarchy units. Each can keep their individual back story but are veiwed as foces that do not fit into the SM or IG positions as being always on the frontlines. Because their primary purpose is not as front-line combatants they fall into this third catch all description.

Any new units in a Combined codex will probably be some sort of Faithfull mob unit and increased vehicle options. The existing units will keep most of their special rules so that you will/can build your army one way or the other and the Inquisitors will be amplified in equipment(power armour standard), stats(Faithful endurance gives them T 4-5), and increased command abilities to provide a third combined force option.


I'm posting this because I'm not a big fan of casually dismising an idea untill I see how it might theoretically work. Sorry if this has been a bit of a de-rail.

As much as I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy force, I think a massive (double size) combined codex with options for GH, Sisters, Inquisitors, Assassins, Inducted Troops and Eccelesiarchy could be cool. Give options without having to have 20 books. I think the combined 'Imperium' codex is about as unlikely as full Sisters and GH only codexes, but oh well.

To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

VikingScott wrote:To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

Truth. lol

Don't know how I missed that earlier.

pretre wrote:

VikingScott wrote:To quote myself from this thread.

VikingScott wrote:
I like the Inq but I don't think a Codex:Inq with DH, Wh, sisters and GK will work without it being the size of the main rulebook (and price too)

Truth. lol

Don't know how I missed that earlier.

I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Admitadly I was exaggerating but i didn't think about removing painting sections.

focusedfire wrote:


I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Okay, let's go back to what we were saying about # of units.

SM = 43 Units (counting characters) - 144 Pages
IG = 31 Units (counting Characters) - 104 Pages

C: WH - 23 Units
C: DH 11 Not Counting Overlap), 20 with overlap
2 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 5 elitesm, 2 Troops,3 Transports,5 Heavy

These numbers do not include 'Inducted Troops' and 'Allied Space Marines', which should arguably be included in their own entries to avoid multiple codex syndrome.

So 3 more units than the IG codex and we're going to fit it into less space ? That would assume we get no new units, characters and lose our allies. AND we lose the painting section.

Unlikely.

More realistically for a 'combined codex' is about 40-60 (Counting Allies) units and a ton of fluff/painting crap. So closer to about 200-250 pages.

I still think that combined is unlikely.

pretre wrote:

focusedfire wrote:


I disagree with this as to the end size and to it being a deterent towards a combined release. You take out the oversized painting section fillers and the akward combined forces rules you wold end up with less than 50 pages of units, rules, and equipement. Take those 50 pages in the new format(Remeber that a lot of the equipment will be redundant) and put in new units, fluff, and a 5th edition paint section and you'll end up with around a 100 page Codex.

Sm's codex is 144 pages

IG codex is 104

Okay, let's go back to what we were saying about # of units.

SM = 43 Units (counting characters) - 144 Pages
IG = 31 Units (counting Characters) - 104 Pages

C: WH - 23 Units
C: DH 11 Not Counting Overlap), 20 with overlap
2 Char, 2 HQ, 1 Retinue, 5 elitesm, 2 Troops,3 Transports,5 Heavy

These numbers do not include 'Inducted Troops' and 'Allied Space Marines', which should arguably be included in their own entries to avoid multiple codex syndrome.

So 3 more units than the IG codex and we're going to fit it into less space ? That would assume we get no new units, characters and lose our allies. AND we lose the painting section.

Unlikely.

More realistically for a 'combined codex' is about 40-60 (Counting Allies) units and a ton of fluff/painting crap. So closer to about 200-250 pages.

I still think that combined is unlikely.

First, Your count is off. It is 50 SM units including vehicles and it is 61 IG Units counting the Vehicles. This places the Combined Forces codex as smaller than either SM or IG before adding any new units.

Second, Note that I said include a 5th edition paint section(Meaing a reduced and combined section). Then, the paint sections for SM 5th ed is 23 pages and for the IG 16 pages. Split the difference and call it 18 Pages.

Third, Drop the Ordos Specific Inquisitor, Just have an Inquisitor and a SC Inquisitor Lord.

Fourth, Add New SC's

Fifth, Remove the Inquisition special scenario fillers in the backs of each book that I failed to mention earlier.


You will find that a Codex on par with the Sm & IG is not only plausible but from a business standpoint, Very likely. And this is without losing the special flavour of either army.

focusedfire wrote:

First, Your count is off. It is 50 SM units including vehicles and it is 61 IG Units counting the Vehicles. This places the Combined Forces codex as smaller than either SM or IG before adding any new units.

Okay, if you're gonna call me on counting, get your count right. I didn't count Retinues so that brings us to 46 if you want to be reaaaally literal.

Characters (11) - Marn, Cato, Tigur, Cass, Pedro, Lysander, Shrike, Vulkan, Khan, Telion, Chronus
HQ (7) - Chapter M, Captain, Librarian, Chaplain, Honour Guard, Command Squad, MotF
Troops (2) - Tactical, Scout
Transport (3) - Rhino, RB, Drop Pod
Elite (9) - Term, Term Assault, Stern, Ven Dread, Dread, IC Dread, TechM, Servitors, LotD
FA (7) - Assault, Vang, LS Squad, Bikes, Attack B, Storm, Scout Bike
HS (7) - Dev, TFC, LR, LRR, Whirl, Vind, LRC

Second, Note that I said include a 5th edition paint section(Meaing a reduced and combined section). Then, the paint sections for SM 5th ed is 23 pages and for the IG 16 pages. Split the difference and call it 18 Pages.
Third, Drop the Ordos Specific Inquisitor, Just have an Inquisitor and a SC Inquisitor Lord.
Fourth, Add New SC's
Fifth, Remove the Inquisition special scenario fillers in the backs of each book that I failed to mention earlier.

And you will have less units than we have now. So Yes, you are right. If they add no new units and keep the allies out of the codex or cut them entirely, than we can absolutely fit it into a SM size codex.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 61 for IG counts every variant vehicle. Which don't even get their own pages. I don't count that, since they are basically wargear changes. Whereas each individual unit gets their own page.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All that being said, I am talking about adding units to the codex, as they have done with each 5th edition release. So GK would have about 10-20, Sisters 10-20 and Allies/Inquisitors/Assassins 10-20. That is more. Hence more space. Hence bigger book.

If you are saying that it can be done in a SM codex Then you are saying that it can be done profitably.

IMO, I think the allies rules will just explain the presence of one or two new units and where all the vehicles come from. There have been rumors of the allies rules going the way of the dodo so this would be no big deal.

In many ways I hope this is the route GW takes as it will give them the excuse to cast some of my favorite models in plastics. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to conversions I like metal better but for cost of an army it would be nice to asee some plastic battle sisters and Grey Knights.

focusedfire wrote:If you are saying that it can be done in a SM codex Then you are saying that it can be done profitably.

IMO, I think the allies rules will just explain the presence of one or two new units and where all the vehicles come from. There have been rumors of the allies rules going the way of the dodo so this would be no big deal.

In many ways I hope this is the route GW takes as it will give them the excuse to cast some of my favorite models in plastics. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to conversions I like metal better but for cost of an army it would be nice to asee some plastic battle sisters and Grey Knights.

I don't think a combined codex is profitable or wise. That's my whole point.

Re: Allies. You're thinking of WH/DH in IG/SM armies. (i.e. The ol' Inq and Mystics) There have been no rumors about losing IG/SM in WH/DH armies. Which no one really complains about.

And please please please Sister Plastics.

@pretre-

1) Lets just agree to disagree on the profitability of the combined codex.

2)GW has made it very clear that they are moving towards stand alone codices. This means no allies either way unless they are actually in the codex.

This by its very nature will push the Sisters and Grey Knights either towards MEQ or GEQ, thus ruining their flavor. This is also why I hope for a combined Codex because the Sisters and Grey Knights will be more likely to maintain their flavor in such a book as opposed to being in a book with SM's or IG.

3)Yes Please, Even if only a few plastics.

focusedfire wrote:@pretre-

2)GW has made it very clear that they are moving towards stand alone codices. This means no allies either way unless they are actually in the codex.

This by its very nature will push the Sisters and Grey Knights either towards MEQ or GEQ, thus ruining their flavor. This is also why I hope for a combined Codex because the Sisters and Grey Knights will be more likely to maintain their flavor in such a book as opposed to being in a book with SM's or IG.

I agree. That's why they will have entries in the Sisters, WH, Inq or whatever codex that say. 'Inducted Guard Platoon, stats, points, etc.'

Similar to how they have Inducted ST now. Or so is my guess. That way you only need your army book, even with 'inducted/allied' troops.

To be fair:
Stormtroopers in the WH/DH codexes as it stands are not inducted. They're the "Inquisitorial" Stormtroopers.

Same basic equipment, totally different training and mission goals.

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair:
Stormtroopers in the WH/DH codexes as it stands are not inducted. They're the "Inquisitorial" Stormtroopers.

Same basic equipment, totally different training and mission goals.

Yeah yeah. I wrote inducted instead of Inq. PHBT!

You know what I meant. I should have just typed IST like I intended.

The problem with these inducted units is that the currently codices are not restricting access to units unless they are unique.

Trying to classify the allies as unique becomes a problem. What you will end up getting are nothing but best of lists where only the most optimal sisters units are taken and then a list that makes them a SM or an IG army. This is what I'm hoping to avoid.

focusedfire wrote:The problem with these inducted units is that the currently codices are not restricting access to units unless they are unique.

Trying to classify the allies as unique becomes a problem. What you will end up getting are nothing but best of lists where only the most optimal sisters units are taken and then a list that makes them a SM or an IG army. This is what I'm hoping to avoid.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying.

In this hypothetical Codex it would not have any references to other codexes and no codexes would be able to use them. So there would be in the C: WH (5th)

HQ: Canoness 100 pts WS 4 BS 5, etc

Troops: BS Squad 100 Pts WS 3 BS 4, etc

Inducted Guard Squad 30 Pts WS 3 BS , etc.

Allied SM Tac Squad 100 pts WS 4, BS4, etc (Cannot be taken if any Adeptas Sororitas squads are taken)

etc.

So the old 'allied' rules would be baked into the codex with their own 'Space Marine' and 'Imperial Guard' units that were generic (or flavorful) Inquisition/Ally versions.

It would allow people to keep the best part of C: WH/DH, the customization and combined arms feel while still being able to play 'pure' lists.

Would anyone ever pick up C:SM and say "you know, what I really want out of this book is an army without Marines"? More to the point, would anyone ever point at C:CSM and say "I should be able to get a Daemons-only army out of this book"? That's absurd. No one says this because GW has not fostered the ludicrous expectation that you should be able to do it. Instead, GW printed up C:CD for people who wanted to build a proper Daemon army. Maybe there should be a Codex: Ordo Hereticus or a Codex: Inquisition for people like WarbossTzoo. But it shouldn't come at the cost of the Sisters of Battle--i.e., another C:WH. The concept behind C:WH is the same as slicing up C:CSM and C:CD, mishmashing them together, and calling it something like "Codex: Warriors of the Warp" or "Codex: Servants of Chaos." If you can't see how this weakens both forces then I'm not sure that there is anything I can say that will get through to you.

Defending C:WH as a better book than the 2nd ed. Sisters Codex or some WD article isn't much of a point. Of course it was better. In that same vein, 5th ed. is better than 2nd ed.--you're not generating any new insight by saying so. Similarly, did C:WH save the Sisters from a worse fate (and this line of thought, by the way, is totally a zero sum game argument)? Maybe so, but that's not the point, either. Yes, C:WH is better than nothing but it's approach is far, far, far from ideal. It's actually not good for the Inquisition, not good for the Ecclesiarchy, and not good for the Sisters. Why should we perpetuate its mistakes just because it has been better than nothing. Getting back to my point from my long post, Sisters do most if not all of the work for C:WH out of the factions, or "brands," represented in that Codex. As such, they're the brand that has the best chance of being successful if strengthened. Insisting that the Sisters aren't a "frontline army," whatever that means, is immaterial to this calculation.

Complaining that Sisters are metal is also lame. No 5th ed. dex has been released without plastic troops. If anything, Sisters are a great candidate for plastic releases precisely because being metal holds up so many customers who are otherwise interested. Furthermore, Sisters of Battle--like SM--don't have a huge amount of visual variety and thus stand to be offered as kits from which many different units could be assembled--a la the oh-so-popular Blood Claws/Grey Hunters/Wolf Guard packs. Finally, arguing that Sisters would not have enough units for the type of re-release that I'm talking about is totally absurd. The only model they'd even lose would be ugly, expensive Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. The precedent of new model releases for 5th ed. codex indicates that redoing Sisters as C:SoB with Ecclesiarchal forces as I've outlined would be entirely feasible.

My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Sisters left out of it. Whether or not the Grey Knights and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

And a quick point on allied/inducted troops. These need to go as they are a major blow to brand strength. If Sisters have to suffer under this penalty to their integrity as a force (for no good fluff reason, I might add) then every other Imperial force should have to do it as well along with taking up space in their book for an Inquisitor Lord HQ option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:. . . but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

I don't think they even need expansion (beyond a few units and some special characters, like other 5th ed. codices) so we don't even have to bank on them getting a creative writer. As you know, I'm not really a fan of having infiltrating Sisters or Sisters on bikes (to me, it doesn't suit their identity)--but as far as a fandex goes, to each their own.

@pretre-I follow what your getting at, experience tells me otherwise.

It tells me that you will end up with a Sisters command squad leading a best of list that has minimal sisters units in it. People will mathhammer the fluff right out of the proposed stand alone codices by running cheap IG units in chimeras as troops. for a better than IG - IG army or it will become SM's everywhere in the list making the Sisters a defacto SM variant.

Sisters are middle of the road units and when offered non-sister units that do one thing or the other better then the Sisters units in those slots will not get used. This will set a sales trend that will lead GW away from where the sisters should be.

If the sisters units are better than the allies then there will be no reason to take them and your back to paying full price for half a codex.

Do you see the problem?

I do, however. I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex with thirty units BEFORE special characters

focusedfire wrote:Sisters are middle of the road units and when offered non-sister units that do one thing or the other better then the Sisters units in those slots will not get used. This will set a sales trend that will lead GW away from where the sisters should be.

If the sisters units are better than the allies then there will be no reason to take them and your back to paying full price for half a codex.

This is exactly right. And this is exactly what my OP aims at fixing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I do, however. I want a Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex with thirty units BEFORE special characters

Same here. But I wouldn't cry if C:SoB 5th was announced today with only twenty five units before special characters.

My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Grey Knights left out of it. Whether or not the Sisters and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Grey Knights have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

It can work for all three Chambers Militant.

They're symbiotic entities. The Ordos, without the Grey Knights or Deathwatch or Sisters, are just glorified Imperial Guard forces with far more fighty HQs and weird armory options. Losing the Inquisitorial support, while making for a "pure" force defeats the purpose of the army.

In all honesty, the only real "best" solution I see is a massive sourcebook that gathers the Inquisition and their respective Chambers Militant into a format along with specific campaign story arcs leading into their deployment alongside "standard" forces.

Melissia wrote:My own opinions on this are probably well known by now.

I'd rather see the Inquisition get its own codex, and the Sisters left out of it. Whether or not the Grey Knights and Deathwatch should be merged into Codex =][=, I'm unsure about, but Sisters have a TON of room for expansion by a creative enough writer.

Agreed.

GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

When i bought and collected all those sisters models starting with the WD article and then the 2nd edition codex it was to play SOB/ecclessiarchy themed force, not the Inquisition.

I strongly resent having had my army shoehorned into codex:WH because GW felt the need to put some Power armour equivalent to the GK in it.

I want the missionary and confessor HQ choices back.

I want fraternis militia and zealots back.

I want updated versions of the special characters from the 2nd edition SOB codex.

I want more loadout options for Penitent engines.

I want more varied arco-flagellants.

I want hand flamers back.

I want faith points to stay and acts of faith to be expanded.

Anything less and my SOB( over 3K of pure sisters and zealots, etc.) are gonna stay moth-balled at the least, and most likely sold off...

Kanluwen wrote:In all honesty, the only real "best" solution I see is a massive sourcebook that gathers the Inquisition and their respective Chambers Militant into a format along with specific campaign story arcs leading into their deployment alongside "standard" forces.

This assumes that the Inquisition needs to be an army rather than just a floating HQ option. Frankly, I could see a combined Codex: Inquisition that contained actual Inquisition forces--like GK and rules on making DW squads. But the Sisters are not an Inquisitorial force in the same sense as those other groups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The only thing I would bring up is that the Ecclesiarchy is not an army and doesn't have an army. The closest it comes is rabble-rousing the Frateris Militia around a core of Sisters. A potential C:SoB should be able to do this--as I indicated in the OP. Would you like this kind of option?

Kanluwen wrote:Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Kind of harsh, isn't it, saying a codex is full of crap. Cause according to the sister of battle codex back in 2nd edition. War of Faith only require the Ecclesiarchy and the approval of the high lords of Terra.
It only contain the warriors of Sisters of battle and Frateris Militant. Wars of Faith are "sometimes" assisted by the High Lords of Terran and even Guard. Which means Guard are only there sometimes.
In the Current Witch Hunter Codex it doesn't even mention anything about Guard when it comes to a war of faith.
Now please give a valid source, cause Sabbat World Crusade is a Crusade not a War of Faith, their is the difference between the two as stated in a war of faith.Also when have Death Watch ever been deployed as a chapter?
Also please, give some references.

Also what did chaos daemons have before they got a full fledged Codex? 12 units in total? Now they have a full fledged 5 edition codex with over 30 units if you include special characters.

Manchu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:GW's ignoring and downplaying of such a core and characterful part of the Imperium (The ecclesiarchy) is shameful. So much potential for such a cool and characterful army with tons of flavor and modeling options (thus sales).

I agree with almost everything in your post. The only thing I would bring up is that the Ecclesiarchy is not an army and doesn't have an army. The closest it comes is rabble-rousing the Frateris Militia around a core of Sisters. A potential C:SoB should be able to do this--as I indicated in the OP. Would you like this kind of option?

I understand this concerning the ecclessiarchy and their forbibbance to have a standing army, etc.

However when they feel the need they are able to skirt the issue via the SOB and gathered zealots/rabble. This could be represented in codex terms by not allowing any non-SOB to fill core requirements (1HQ/ 2 troops, etc.) or a rule that non-SOB units in an army may not outnumber SOB units, etc. Plenty of ways to represent this.

Also old fluff isn't new fluff: Blood Angels didn't used to all wear jumppacks. They used to be a standard codex astartes chapter that tried to hide it's curse and operate like a standard chapter. Space wolves didn't use to ride giant cat-dogs, etc., Land raiders didn't use to fall from the sky... etc., etc.

Point being that old fluff can't reliably be used as the yardstick for new codexes because GW has shown a desire/willingness to change/ignore established fluff very readily.

To answer your question yes I would like that...

CT GAMER wrote:This could be represented in codex terms by not allowing any non-SOB to fill core requirements (1HQ/ 2 troops, etc.)

This was what I suggested in the OP. I am open to other ways of handling it, however, as there may very well me a better way.

plastic SOB models would be nice. The fact that they are metal is what keeping me away from them...

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well your Codex is full of crap, because every other background source(from the "13th Black Crusade guidebook" published by Black Library to the "Sabbat Worlds Crusade" book published by the same) states that "Wars of Faith" require the full approval of all the branches of the Imperial bureaucracy to be declared.

Oh and by the by?

Deathwatch, just like Sisters, would never be deployed as frontline troops.

Just like Grey Knights aren't either.

Say it with me here sweetheart.
They are specialist troops, who are tailored to fighting one specific incarnation of the Imperium's foes. They are the defense against the corruption within.

Kind of harsh, isn't it, saying a codex is full of crap. Cause according to the sister of battle codex back in 2nd edition. War of Faith only require the Ecclesiarchy and the approval of the high lords of Terra.
It only contain the warriors of Sisters of battle and Frateris Militant. Wars of Faith are "sometimes" assisted by the High Lords of Terran and even Guard. Which means Guard are only there sometimes.
In the Current Witch Hunter Codex it doesn't even mention anything about Guard when it comes to a war of faith.
Now please give a valid source, cause Sabbat World Crusade is a Crusade not a War of Faith, their is the difference between the two as stated in a war of faith.Also when have Death Watch ever been deployed as a chapter?
Also please, give some references.

Also what did chaos daemons have before they got a full fledged Codex? 12 units in total? Now they have a full fledged 5 edition codex with over 30 units if you include special characters.

Trying to argue that SOB can't be a standalone army or can't be front line troops is pointless, especially when such a stance is based upon outdated fluff.

Fluff that GW itself ignores and rewrites at will as it pleases as evidenced by many recent codexes.

The only justification GW needs to do anything is a belief that something will sell and be profitable. They lost their credibility in regards to fluff and it's use to limit codexes a long long time ago...

So we don't need to fit sisters into outdated fluff, we simply have to hope that enough people might be interested in buying whatever list they come up with to make it seem a worthwhile project for GW to commit to...

Which I would argue would be a Sisters of Battle / Ecclesiarchy codex, which allows for either the professional soldier outlook (pure Sisters, no fanatics, no crazy units, etc) or a more crazed religious nutjob outlook (frateris militia, p.engines, arcos, repentia, etc), and both of them get expanded and are done justice in the codex. all fifth edition codices have such variations in them... Guard is the best example, there's just so much variation that it's astounding.

I think something like that-- with a good range of plastic miniatures-- would do a far better job of selling models than C:WH did.

If they move towards making Sisters of Battle the full on militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy--no Repentia, nothing to make the Sisters of Battle look like anything over than the devout warriors they're supposed to be, but maybe have something like allowing Frateris Militia alongside it?

I would be fine with that.

What I don't want to see is them basically copy/pasting unit ideas from the Space Marines' Order of Battle or the Imperial Guards' OOB.

A fast attack unit of Sisters with jump packs, able to use their flamethrowers at the peak of their jump alongside of being able to use their jump packs to scorch the heretic and the unpure?

Hell, that'd be awesome.

A Sisters' special ability that is "combining fire"(literally) wherein they concentrate flamethrower shots to have the point of convergence being counted as rending or ignoring invulnerable saves?

I could see that representing their methodical advance and scorching the ground before them.

That's all I can really think of to make them notably "different" from Space Marines and to provide some examples of what I'd like to see, personally.

Kanluwen, once again you are right on the money. But why no Repentia? I think they're a must.

I guess my problem with this discussion is the all or nothing approach that people take.

"If there isn't a codex with 30 units without X, I won't be happy."

"If there aren't Ordos, I'll sell my army."

"If they don't have Archo-flagi-pentia in there I'll scream."

I count my lucky stars that we have a codex and haven't gotten eaten by Tyranids yet.

If we get any kind of codex, combined, not combined, pure sisters, C: WH 2.0, I'll be happy.

From my perspective, I would like a buff to sisters with new units that aren't Girl SM, a retention of Inquisitors and their forces and GK. All together or apart, I could care less. As long as I don't lose the 9 units I have for girls, get cheap rhinos and maybe gain a little extra, I'll be happy.

Manchu wrote:Kanluwen, once again you are right on the money. But why no Repentia? I think they're a must.

Honestly? Because I get the sneaking suspicion that once they lose their faith---they'd probably be put to death, as quietly as possible, to show that "The Daughters of the Emperor" are as uncorrupted and pure as the Angels of Death.

Because, remember, the average Imperial Citizen and even the Guardsmen who are hard campaigners?

They don't know that the big guys leading Chaos incursions are, in fact, fallen Space Marines.

In response, pretre, I would just say I think that if GW ever does get around to doing another codex with Sisters I'm confident that it will be better than C:WH even if it is C:WH 2.0. This discussion is about how that better C:WH could be done. I wouldn't be happy with Ecclesiarchy gone (actually, it was Melissa and Necrosis who finally convinced me of this and to stop "screaming" as you mentioned). I also wouldn't be happy to see no Inquisitor. It's just that the book needs--in my view at least--Sisters in the spotlight with everything else secondary.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Kanluwen, once again you are right on the money. But why no Repentia? I think they're a must.

Honestly? Because I get the sneaking suspicion that once they lose their faith---they'd probably be put to death, as quietly as possible, to show that "The Daughters of the Emperor" are as uncorrupted and pure as the Angels of Death.

Because, remember, the average Imperial Citizen and even the Guardsmen who are hard campaigners?

They don't know that the big guys leading Chaos incursions are, in fact, fallen Space Marines.

That's why Repentia are the ones leading the way. The only way to show how faithful they are is to die horribly to atone for their sins. It balances the fact that they can sin with the fact that they are the most faithful.

Becoming a Repentia is technically a punishment for some infraction but seemingly never for losing their faith. In fact, some of them seek "exile" as Repentia for the slightest of reasons. So, in other words, it's voluntary in some situations. The unit's fluff even makes it sound like something of an honor.

Like I said:
Repentia just strike me as something we shouldn't really see on the field.

With the Imperial Guard's Penal Legions? Yeah. I can see those on the field--given that the Guard uses them as meatfodder

But we don't see Battle-Brothers who exile themselves for penitent crusades or the like on the field because even though they've lost favor--they're still too valuable to lose.

It's just something I don't see as "fitting" on the field.

Well, I can't argue with your opinion so we'll agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that Sisters are nowhere near as valuable on an individual basis as Marines; probably more than Guards of course. Crunch-wise, it'd be neat to see them surging forward with Frateris Militia.

pretre wrote:I guess my problem with this discussion is the all or nothing approach that people take.

That's probably because you actually give a damn about the Inquisition units. I don't, and I wish that trash was kept out of my third edition Sisters of Battle codex I don't like them from an overall fluff standpoint (They belong in Dark Heresy, not in tabletop 40k), and I don't like them from a codex fluff standpoint (Excuse me, what you doing in my Sisters codex again?) and I don't like them from an internal balance standpoint (they suck), and I don't like them from an external balance standpoint (especially with Allies rules).

So I'd rather them be removed entirely. Which leaves us with Sisters and Ecclesiarchy to fill the codex. And there's more than enough room for expansion in Sisters alone, nevermind with Ecclesiarchy.

The Inquisition belongs on the tabletop for 40k as much as the Sisters, Grey Knights and Deathwatch do.

That is to say that:
None of them belong on the tabletop, barring special scenarios or Apocalypse games with very specific things in play or as support units available to Imperial Guard/Space Marines when facing a particular foe in those kinds of scenarios/Apocalypse games.

Kanluwen wrote:The Inquisition belongs on the tabletop for 40k as much as the Sisters, Grey Knights and Deathwatch do.

That is to say that:
None of them belong on the tabletop, barring special scenarios or Apocalypse games with very specific things in play or as support units available to Imperial Guard/Space Marines when facing a particular foe in those kinds of scenarios/Apocalypse games.

So, are you trying to tell me that Marines, whom are far less common than Sisters to the point of being nothing more than legends to most Imperial citizens, somehow deserve to be in the tabletop game... but Sisters, whom are more common and have a bigger effect on more worlds, do not?

*slowly shakes head*

Marinewank. Great.

If we went by your definition Dark Eldar wouldn't be on the table either. None of us share your point of view. Sisters is a full fledged army, it says so in their codex.

Who the hell says Sisters are "more common"?

The Marines are not in any way, shape, or form a defensive force(unlike the Sisters, who are commonly used as a garrison force for Shrineworlds. Entire Orders are formed for that purpose and they never leave their planets).

It's far more believable that you'd see Marines at some point in an offensive role given that while yes, Marines are "rare" they do also break their forces up to engage in combat zones across the Imperium at their discretion.

Kanluwen wrote:Who the hell says Sisters are "more common"?

The Marines are not in any way, shape, or form a defensive force(unlike the Sisters, who are commonly used as a garrison force for Shrineworlds. Entire Orders are formed for that purpose and they never leave their planets).

It's far more believable that you'd see Marines at some point in an offensive role given that while yes, Marines are "rare" they do also break their forces up to engage in combat zones across the Imperium at their discretion.

Lets not forget about wars of faith which is made up of sisters and Frateris Militia.

Kanluwen wrote:Who the hell says Sisters are "more common"?

I do. The Marines have an upward limit of what they're supposed to be. Of one million. There are likely several times more planets in the Imperium than there are Marines. Marines are so damn rare that many Imperial citizens don't even believe they exist any more than they believe that, say, Ork Kommandos exist. Which they don't, the very idea is hilarious to them.

Sisters have no such limits, and indeed, GW has left the upper limits of the numbers of Sisters EXTREMELY vague, and has given no limits on the number of minor orders in the galaxy. They are present wherever the Ecclesiarchy is present, which means they are present in some form or other in just about every single Imperial planet. While some Orders do indeed defend specific worlds, others go on Wars of Faith, propogating the cause of the Ecclesiarchy and destroying its enemies.

And again, the "number of planets versus the number of Marines" argument is a joke.

Marines don't care about defending planets. They don't care about wars of faith or other nonsense.

They care about destroying the foe, and that's it. Their entire existence is predicated upon the fact that they are always, always, always going to be engaged in combat somewhere, somehow.

The only times they're not are when they're in between deployments, wherein they're generally en route to another warzone.

Kanluwen wrote:Marines don't care about defending planets.

So they don't care about war? Indeed, then, perhaps they SHOULD be removed from the game.

Marines barely even matter in M.41. They barely even EXIST in comparison to the rest of the Imperium's forces; the Guard and PDF do the overwhelming majority of warring int he Imperium's name, both offensive AND defensive. If all Marines in the Imperium suddenly vanished, sure, the Imperium would regret their loss. But then the Imperium would move on, as it is wont to do, and step up the Guard recruitment for a bit,.

So what happens when their recruiting world gets attacked?

You tell me Necrosis, since you're so up and up on fluff.

And Melissia: You're right.

Since the Guard and PDF do so much, let's squat everything in power armor.

Coming next year:
Codex: Cadian Shock Troopers
Codex: Elysian Drop Troops
Codex: Gudrunite Planetary Defense Force(featuring both renegade AND loyalist lists! OMG!)

This argument is going nowhere. Kanluwen has a point: Sisters shouldn't need to move around a lot, as per their fluff. But by that logic, IG shouldn't need to move around either. The reason that they do, I'd argue, is a conceit. (A pretty common conceit in 40k. SM are the only truly "amphibious" Imperial faction around.) There's no reason why Sisters can't partake in this same illogic--which they do in Faith & Fire, IIRC. The Sisters also seem to have an exploration/missionary bend in Daemonifuge, so I could see SoB armies following along with them. In any case, the SoB are not just the Ecclesiarchy's army. By Sebastien Thor's design they are supposed to be a check on the Ecclesiarchy. I can see them being a true army. Also, let's not forget CTGamer's (and often HBMC's) point: fluff can change.

Guard deserve multiple codices just as much, if not moreso, than Marines do. There's more variation within the Guard than the Marines.

As the Imperium is powerful, so, too, is the Guard. As the Guard is powerful, so, too, is the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu: You are ignoring Sisters fluff, then, where especially the smaller Orders do indeed move around a lot. Indeed, there was an Order of Battle Sisters that was created specifically to hunt down and retrieve holy artefacts in a subsector. The Guard also moves around quite a bit. The PDF (which, while not technically part of the Guard, I tend to include when I say "Guard) does most of the defending... while the Guard actually assaults planets.

There is no conceit there. The galaxy is large, after all, as is the Imperium. Movement is necessary. The Marines, due to their independence and the illogical amount of resources gifted to them, are undeniably the best at moving around, but they are hardly the only ones.

@Melissa: see my post edit

RE: IG--I don't see why it is necessary to have both an Imperial Guard and a PDF. Seems like just having the Guard would be more than enough. Instead, we have Cadians and Catachans shipped to all parts of the Imperium. Seems silly.

And my own We should probably stop that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: see my post edit

RE: IG--I don't see why it is necessary to have both an Imperial Guard and a PDF. Seems like just having the Guard would be more than enough. Instead, we have Cadians and Catachans shipped to all parts of the Imperium. Seems silly.

The same reason we have the National Guard and the Army in the united states. The National Guard handles minor internal affairs, while the Army tends to handle major affairs and offensive action. The National Guard has units within each state, which obey the orders of that state's governor (to an extent, of course), while the Army is under the direct command of the White House and Congress.

PDFs defend individual worlds, and are under the command of the governor of that world. They're basically 40k's version of the National Guard. Meanwhile, the Imperial Guard are professional frontline units which propogate the wars of the Imperium, and are ostensibly under much higher ranked command.

What I meant is that IG could easily be organized by subsector or a smaller jurisdiction and be used only in that part of the Imperium. But instead, I read novels where Tallarns and Valhallans are deployed to the same planet despite coming from two different segmenti. If this is the way that IG are shipped about (i.e., CONCEIT) then I can't see why we should be so strict about Sisters not getting away from Ophelia VII every once in a while. And, as I said, I think the existing fluff supports that idea. This is getting pretty off-topic and we don't seem to disagree anyhow.

@Kanluwen: Do you get upset when you see people playing Ultramarines against Craftworld Ulthwe?

Your use of the term conceit does not match any definition I know.

Regardless, the Administratum is not the most efficient organization in the history of Mankind, so these kinds of things happen.

Melissia wrote:Your use of the term conceit does not match any definition I know.

Really? All I meant is that it's a strained idea that we just sort of buy into without being too critical.

It's not really strained though, not to me. I buy into it because it makes sense given how the Administratum has been described (it is said that planets have been lost because of rounding errors in tax returns, for example).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To bring this back on topic: Which actually could be a good argument that the Sisters may indeed be more mobile than the Guard, though probably not as much as the Marines-- at least Sisters have less bureaucratic incompetence to deal with! Middle of the road indeed.

Sure, I buy into it as well. I was trying to illustrate that Sisters travelling around isn't the hardest thing to believe about the 40k universe.

Even so, I still agree with Kanluwen that Sisters probably aren't even as widely deployed as Guard. But what does that really matter to the tabletop game? Hence my question about getting mad seeing Ultramarines v. Ulthwe.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Who the hell says Sisters are "more common"?

Sisters have no such limits, and indeed, GW has left the upper limits of the numbers of Sisters EXTREMELY vague, and has given no limits on the number of minor orders in the galaxy. They are present wherever the Ecclesiarchy is present, which means they are present in some form or other in just about every single Imperial planet. While some Orders do indeed defend specific worlds, others go on Wars of Faith, propogating the cause of the Ecclesiarchy and destroying its enemies.

One big point of debate: Page 120 of the BRB 5th ed has in fact set an approximate cap on the Sisters. It says and I quote, "The Adepta Sororitas, or the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant
as they are known, are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum armies." Then says stuff about utmost training and found fighting enemies to the last, then the next paragraph is this gem.
Again I quote, "There are three major Oders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters." Then it continues on to say, "An Order's warriors rarely fight as a unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battlezones."


This is under the new Defenders of the Imperium Section and I would say, as I have in the past, that this section gives an idea of what to possibly expect.

focusedfire wrote:
One big point of debate: Page 120 of the BRB 5th ed has in fact set an approximate cap on the Sisters. It says and I quote, "The Adepta Sororitas, or the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant
as they are known, are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum armies." Then says stuff about utmost training and found fighting enemies to the last. then the next paragraph is this gem.
Again I quote, "There are three major Oders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters." Then it continues on to say, "An Order's warriors rarely fight as a unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battlezones."


This is under the new Defenders of the Imperium Section and I would say, as I have in the past, that this section gives an idea of what to possibly expect.

Wait I though their were 6 major orders not 3.

There are. Remember, the Codex trumps BRB.

The six orders are:

Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII:
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of Our Martyred Lady
Order of the Valorous Heart

Convent Prioris on Holy Terra:
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Argent Shroud

Maybe they misprinted it like how the wave serpent only has the Front armour of 2 (page 104).

Melissia wrote:Guard deserve multiple codices just as much, if not moreso, than Marines do. There's more variation within the Guard than the Marines.

As the Imperium is powerful, so, too, is the Guard. As the Guard is powerful, so, too, is the Imperium.

Yep. But, Guard basically fall into one big catch-all:
Guy with flashlight and cardboard armor.
The differing tactics, etc are easily represented now via the Veterans.

Manchu: You are ignoring Sisters fluff, then, where especially the smaller Orders do indeed move around a lot. Indeed, there was an Order of Battle Sisters that was created specifically to hunt down and retrieve holy artefacts in a subsector.

And the same can be said of Space Marines. The Dark Angels, for example, maintain entire Successor Chapters devoted to hunting down specific members of The Fallen.

The Disciples of Caliban were founded, as per the Codex currently, to do nothing other than hunt Cypher. I'm sure there's other Chapters that have Succesors that perform specific tasks like so. Hell, the Successor Chapter(Dark Angels) I'm working on coming up with fluff for is going to be based off those general lines.

The Guard also moves around quite a bit. The PDF (which, while not technically part of the Guard, I tend to include when I say "Guard) does most of the defending... while the Guard actually assaults planets.

PDF really don't belong anywhere near being considered as "Guard equivalent". They're generally trained over the course of months, rather than years like the Guard. They're generally ill-equipped(compared to even the Imperial Guard. Yeah. That's saying something).

It's also worth noting that there are entire Guard regiments devoted to nothing more than defense of critical planets. Cadia, for example, has no PDF. They have in lieu of it, the Interior Guard.

Something like 100+ regiments of Cadian Shock Troopers and Kasrkin that never leave the planet following their assignment to the Interior Guard. Skimmed from the top 10% of the Cadian Shock Regiments.

There is no conceit there. The galaxy is large, after all, as is the Imperium. Movement is necessary. The Marines, due to their independence and the illogical amount of resources gifted to them, are undeniably the best at moving around, but they are hardly the only ones.

I'd argue that point, specifically since there are Marine Chapters whose entire basis is to do nothing more then launch assaults against random cities on random planets for things as silly as eating an Aquila Pie the "HERETICAL WAY!".

That last one is made up, but you get the point.

And as for mobility:
Manchu(as far as I know at least) and I haven't really been referring to their ability to field fast moving armies. We're referring more to them being a kind of "scorch the earth" army.

Think "Slow" and "Methodical" with endless amounts of flaming heretics fleeing before them, and that just screams the Sisters' way of war.

Melissia wrote:There are. Remember, the Codex trumps BRB.

The six orders are:

Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII:
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of Our Martyred Lady
Order of the Valorous Heart

Convent Prioris on Holy Terra:
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Argent Shroud

Except when BRB was written after Codex. Fifth, edition is the edition where GW pretty much came out and said that all older codex supplements and chapter approved armies(Craftworld Eldar and TLatD) were no longer valid.

All I can say is, Enjoy your six orders until the next book comes out.

Which, if it does happen (I am not convinced), would be a hilariously bad decision on GW's part.

Regardless, as I said, codex trumps BRB. It's even stated specifically in the BRB that this is true. That's part of the reason why why Seraphim don't have to test initiative to Hit and Run, and why DH Force Weapons ignore eternal warrior.

Kanluwen wrote:Think "Slow" and "Methodical" with endless amounts of flaming heretics fleeing before them, and that just screams the Sisters' way of war.

Thought For The Day: "There are only heretics before me. There are only ashes behind me."

Melissia wrote:Regardless, as I said, codex trumps BRB.

I think the BRB says that this is true only where a codexes RULES are in conflict with the BRB... I doubt it pertains to fluff.

Melissia wrote:Which, if it does happen (I am not convinced), would be a hilariously bad decision on GW's part.

Regardless, as I said, codex trumps BRB. It's even stated specifically in the BRB that this is true. That's part of the reason why why Seraphim don't have to test initiative to Hit and Run, and why DH Force Weapons ignore eternal warrior.

Hey, I'm just contributing some of GW latest fine work concerning the Sisters. Are going to call the rest of the quoted section a typo? It does seem to set a force limit.
Also, the bit about being the army for the ministorum seems to be a bit of a disconnect from where they are currently.

Well it doesn't really matter if their 3 or 6 right now, it's not really going to change anything is it?

It perhaps is; the phrase "several" versus the phrase "many" can be important. C:WH said "many thousands", which could mean anywhere from five thousand to fifty thousand, and both sources give no limit to the amount of Minor Orders.

Actually, the bit about them being the army of the Ministroum kinda reinforces old fluff... including both C:SoB and C:WH, which say (more or less in depth) roughly the same thing.

Well, if the numbering of Sisters in the several thousands (as opposed to, say, the untold BILLIONS of IG) represents GWs desire to make the SoB into a smaller, more elite force, then it could be hugely important.

The (worst case) scenario I have in mind there is a combined -I- codex wherein SoB are represented by 2 or 3 units as part of a larger -I- strike force. ::shudder::

Necrosis wrote:Well it doesn't really matter if their 3 or 6 right now, it's not really going to change anything is it?

It is the reduction to three orders, with the listed number of sisters, and the description of them not really fghting as a full force that adds up to a lot of unhappy Sisters players if the next codex comes anywhere near to matching what is written in the mentioned section.

focusedfire wrote:Also, the bit about being the army for the ministorum seems to be a bit of a disconnect from where they are currently.

Nah, they really are the mainstay of the Ministorum forces. It's a complex situation that would take more explaining than the BRB blurb. As to 3 v. 6, I think that's a mistake. On the one hand, I bet GW would reduce the number of paint schemes they have to advertise in a prospective codex. On the other, getting rid of the two major convents? I doubt it.

Yeah, that would be a disastrously bad idea. But thankfully all latest rumors appear to be that there will be a Grey Knights / Inquisition codex sooner rather than later, and Sisters will not be in it-- which means that there will be a Sisters / Ecclesiarchy codex, with or without Inquisition units (hopefully without in my opinion). Jervis Johnson has gone on record for over a year now saying that Sisters and Grey Knights will get codices focusing on them, though whether or not the Inquisition is removed from them he would not say.

But this kind of discussion goes in the News section I think...

Manchu wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Also, the bit about being the army for the ministorum seems to be a bit of a disconnect from where they are currently.

Nah, they really are the mainstay of the Ministorum forces. It's a complex situation that would take more explaining than the BRB blurb. As to 3 v. 6, I think that's a mistake. On the one hand, I bet GW would reduce the [+++TRANSSMISSION TERMINATED+++

Manchu wrote:On the one hand, I bet GW would reduce the number of paint schemes they have to advertise in a prospective codex.

Pfft, yeah right. Not like they advertised much for anything other than Order of Our Martyred Lady in C:WH. Hell they had more pages on Marine miniatures in the codex than they did the other Sisters paint schemes.

They had two pages with the stupid piece of gak ugly as arse Ultramarines in there, but NONE dedicated to the Order of the Ebon Chalice, THE ORDER FOUNDED BY ALICIA DOMINICA!!!

*turns on Rhapsody of Fire's Symphony of Enchanted Lands, and fast forwards to Part III: Rex Tremende, then muttering angrily some very unladylike language about GW employees and their mothers*









*cough* I'm okay. I'm not bitter.

Melissia wrote:*cough* I'm okay. I'm not bitter.

I think you missed your true calling, with all of your seething vitriol you should be playing Khorne.

Too much blood. I prefer to stay clean.

Besides, there aren't any lost and the damned armies in tabletop 40k. There's only angry at my dad marines (yawn) and daemons. I MIGHT get a mixed Khorne/Slaanesh daemon army, but that's a subject for a different thread.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, that would be a disastrously bad idea. But thankfully all latest rumors appear to be that there will be a Grey Knights / Inquisition codex sooner rather than later, and Sisters will not be in it-- which means that there will be a Sisters / Ecclesiarchy codex, with or without Inquisition units (hopefully without in my opinion). Jervis Johnson has gone on record for over a year now saying that Sisters and Grey Knights will get codices focusing on them, though whether or not the Inquisition is removed from them he would not say.

Do you think that the codices Jervis mentioned are the free ones that they are going to let everyone download? Wouldn't be the first time he and GW have misled in order to sneak a suprise in on everyone.

I sincerely doubt it. We've also gotten a lot of rumors about a Grey Knights focused codex, too, including Grey Knights with jump packs for example, and it will probably have Inquisition units... but it will not have Sisters. Every single reliable sources says the two codices will be updated this edition, and will be separate. We just have to wait and hope for the best though.

If page 120 & 121is an indication of what is to come, then the Grey Knights & Inquistion are going to become a MEQ Inquisition book.

And the Sisters are going to become a broader GEQ ministorum army that uses less sisters units and more storms and gaurd based units.

If this ends up being the case then, "How could GW pull this off without totally sc**wing the Sisters and their players?

If you are going off of the statement that the Sisters are the army of the Ministorum, then I fail to see how you came to that conclusion about how the Sisters would look.

Indeed, if it specifically mentions them, without mentioning the Guard, or Frateris Militia, then I would think that it would lend itself to a conclusion of Sisters being expanded far more.

It is the mentioning of the orders warriors rarley(emphasis mine) fighting together as a unit, but instead are commonly spread through out the galaxy in various battle zones.

This could mean that they are teamed up with with one of the many lesser sisterhoods(This seems like it might have special meaning) to create a viable force or it could mean that the Sisters are used to bolster existing forces.

It is interesting in that they set a very limiting cap on the sie of the orders but left the door open for many
different interpretations.

The blurb leaves me wondering what GW classifies as lesser orders and to just how spread out they are going to be.

I still hold to my tens if not hundreds of millions of Sisters in the Imperium, myself...

Logistically, it makes much more sense to have more rather than less Sisters... as the Imperium is large, so is the Ecclesiarchy-- the two are almost nigh-inseparable to the common person. To have less than one sister per every ten thousand worlds is just plain stupid.

GW/=intellgence

@Melissia

Considering that C: WH mentions that sisters defend pilgrimage routes, fight wars of faith, bodyguard members of clergy and have a large presence on any world with Ecclesiarchy assets (Read: almost all of them).

There would have to be at least a hundred million Sisters.

Agreed. But with at least half of GW's writers being incompetent (see Black Library) as science fiction writers, they don't give us information that makes sense.

Melissia wrote:Agreed. But with at least half of GW's writers being incompetent (see Black Library) as science fiction writers, they don't give us information that makes sense.

the cake is a lie...

Melissia wrote:Agreed. But with at least half of GW's writers being incompetent (see Black Library) as science fiction writers, they don't give us information that makes sense.

Yikes. That's kind of a strong statement. I tend to like Black Library material.

I understand that 'if we were running things' there would never be a conflict in the fluff, continuity would plunge ever forward effortlessly and elves would come out of the forest and give us all flowers, but still...

I tend to dislike it to some extent or other. Hell, even though I like Sandy Mitchel, I hate how he depicts Sisters... he basically makes them out as religious retards incapable of understanding a tactical or strategic situation.

A similar problem is had with Wonder Woman in comics, very few writers seem to actually "get" her, even though her concept can be boield down into three words... "Spirit of Truth"...

I take it you haven't read the original wonder woman comics? Her concept can be boiled down to three words, sure, but they're "softcore bondage porn."

Actually I did... and that's what was on the covers in order to draw readers, but not necessarily the content.

The creator was in a polyamorous relationship with two women and had a strange idea about "loving submission" which I don't buy into, but they weren't the only one who worked on Wonder Woman...

Kinda like how Rob Liefeld may have created Deadpool technically, but he's too incompetent to have actually created Deadpool's personality.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I take it you haven't read the original wonder woman comics? Her concept can be boiled down to three words, sure, but they're "softcore bondage porn."

Zing!

I guess I haven't read his stuff. I've read F&F and Daemonifuge so far for sisters.

What books did the other guy put out?

Sandy Mitchel is the one who did the awesome Ciaphas Cain series. However, in that series, Sisters are treated like idiots. Same with the Redemption Corps by Rob Sanders.

Melissia wrote:Actually I did... and that's what was on the covers in order to draw readers, but not necessarily the content.

The creator was in a polyamorous relationship with two women and had a strange idea about "loving submission" which I don't buy into, but they weren't the only one who worked on Wonder Woman...

Oh, we're talking about modern Wonder Woman.

Well then sure, I agree. She's damn hard to write. But that's really because people kept putting her up against things that honestly don't make any sense to me. She belongs in a Ray Harryhausen comic.

But then I always thought the idea that comics have to fit into a universe kind of stupid to be completely honest, which is probably why I stopped paying attention to them eight or nine years ago.

Kinda like how Rob Liefeld may have created Deadpool technically, but he's too incompetent to have actually created Deadpool's personality.

Did Deathstroke Deadpool even have a personality?

Well what's hilarious about GW's poor ability with Sci-Fi numbers if you read the Space Hulk rulebook it talks about how basically the entire Blood Angel's chapter dies trying to assault the hulk. Ultramarines freaked out just with their first company being killed by Tyranids but apparently Blood Angels really know the score.

CoughSisters ThreadCough

I'll read those two and get back to you on what I think.

They should make....... CHAOS SISTERS! Evil sisters whom summon daemons and have resolute faith in the dark gods.


Because everything is better with Chaos.

Slarg232 wrote:They should make....... CHAOS SISTERS! Evil sisters whom summon daemons and have resolute faith in the dark gods.


Because everything is better with Chaos.

Thanks for that. That's exactly what we need. Let me guess... Slanesh?

Sigh. Is there a facepalm orkmoticon?

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:They should make....... CHAOS SISTERS! Evil sisters whom summon daemons and have resolute faith in the dark gods.


Because everything is better with Chaos.

Thanks for that. That's exactly what we need. Let me guess... Slanesh?

Sigh. Is there a facepalm orkmoticon?

Slaanesh? Hell no.

Khorne, baby. Tell me you don't find it plausible that in their fury on behalf of the Emperor more than a few of the Sisters of Battle have gone rogue and become a disciple of the Blood God.

Only a single Sister has ever fallen to chaos, and I would like it to stay that way. Their being nigh-incorruptible is part of their charm.

Unfortunately, GW's writers are pervs, and made Mirael Sabathiel fall to worshipping Slaanesh...

Melissia wrote:Only a single Sister has ever fallen to chaos

Reference that doesn't read like propaganda?

Slaanesh? Hell no.

Khorne, baby. Tell me you don't find it plausible that in their fury on behalf of the Emperor more than a few of the Sisters of Battle have gone rogue and become a disciple of the Blood God.

Actually, I find it less plausible than the oft brought up Slaanesh connection. ("They are girls, so must fall to the sexy chaos god") sigh

I don't think of sisters having that kind of fury. Blood rage seems unlikely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:Only a single Sister has ever fallen to chaos

Reference that doesn't read like propaganda?

There's a few in Daemonifuge too. Unlikely that only one would ever fall.

What about during their Red Rage? Khorne cares not from where the blood flows...

double

*points to avatar*
Slannesh Sister, name is Miriael Sabathiel. Only sister of battle to fall to chaos. Daemonifuge, doesn't count since they were possessed meaning it's against their will. To fall to chaos means you have to willingly join them. Only Miriael Sabathiel willingly joined chaos.

Wait, now that I think of it, burninating the world does kind of put a stop to the general flowing of blood that battle usually brings about.

Damnit, SoB models make great berzerkers. I can't make up my mind on this.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:Only a single Sister has ever fallen to chaos

Reference that doesn't read like propaganda?

Codex: Sisters of Battle.

That and Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook are the only references I really buy.

pretre wrote:I don't think of sisters having that kind of fury. Blood rage seems unlikely.

"Holy Hatred" anyone?

Melissia wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:Only a single Sister has ever fallen to chaos

Reference that doesn't read like propaganda?

Codex: Sisters of Battle.

That and Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook are the only references I really buy.

Necrosis wrote:*points to avatar*
Slannesh Sister, name is Miriael Sabathiel. Only sister of battle to fall to chaos. Daemonifuge, doesn't count since they were possessed meaning it's against their will. To fall to chaos means you have to willingly join them. Only Miriael Sabathiel willingly joined chaos.

I just find it really ludicrous that in, what, four thousand years not more than one sister has fallen to chaos, when you guys maintain that there's more sisters than all of the space marines combined given everywhere they're supposed to have a presence.

Melissia wrote:"Holy Hatred" anyone?

I guess I'm weird, but I always thought of the Hatred as more methodical than rage-y.

But I don't. Marines are independent, they don't worship the Emperor, they have a sense of entitlement about it (it's what caused the Horus Heresy after all). There ARE sisters whose faith has faltered, and Sisters declared witches because of developing psychic powers or something similar (there's an example in the Radical's Handbook), and some Sisters declared heretics by some individual or other over the years, but none of them fell to true Chaos worship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:"Holy Hatred" anyone?

I guess I'm weird, but I always thought of the Hatred as more methodical than rage-y.

It is, but hate is one of Khorne's domains. Just like despair is one of Nurgle's, but nurgle doesn't despair, himself.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
I just find it really ludicrous that in, what, four thousand years not more than one sister has fallen to chaos, when you guys maintain that there's more sisters than all of the space marines combined given everywhere they're supposed to have a presence.

Agreed. I think this is a lack of talking about it in the fluff rather than a conspicuous absence. Where does it say anywhere that they don't fall or that only one fell? (I just checked the Inq handbook and didn't see it.)

Melissia wrote:But I don't. Marines are independent, they don't worship the Emperor, they have a sense of entitlement about it (it's what caused the Horus Heresy after all).

You're treating Sisters like a planet of hats. Yes, by definition they worship the Emperor. I see nothing to say that a Sister couldn't be tricked into thinking that a demonic presence wasn't in fact a sign of the Emperor, and becoming convinced over time to follow this presence, and by extension, Chaos. They aren't Grey Knights, after all.

Read the rest of my post.

pretre wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
I just find it really ludicrous that in, what, four thousand years not more than one sister has fallen to chaos, when you guys maintain that there's more sisters than all of the space marines combined given everywhere they're supposed to have a presence.

Agreed. I think this is a lack of talking about it in the fluff rather than a conspicuous absence. Where does it say anywhere that they don't fall or that only one fell? (I just checked the Inq handbook and didn't see it.)

Trading card

Melissia wrote:Read the rest of my post.

I mean, I've never seen any fluff where a Rainbow Warrior SM fell to Chaos. Does that mean RW SM are immune to Chaos Taint by the same logic?

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

I just find it really ludicrous that in, what, four thousand years not more than one sister has fallen to chaos, when you guys maintain that there's more sisters than all of the space marines combined given everywhere they're supposed to have a presence.

It's what makes sisters special and unique. Their faith in the Emperor is so strong that suddenly their bolters rend and their armour save become invulnerable...etc. They see Death for the Emperor as the highest achievement one can attain, hence why they have the martyr rule.

It's in Codex: Sisters of Battle, as I said.

To quote:

A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors.

pretre wrote:I mean, I've never seen any fluff where a Rainbow Warrior SM fell to Chaos. Does that mean RW SM are immune to Chaos Taint by the same logic?

The comparison is ludicrous and stupid.

The Rainbow Warriors do not exist anymore, for one, and for two, there is nothing saying they have not. There IS fluff saying that only a single Sister has fallen.

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

Melissia wrote:But I don't. Marines are independent, they don't worship the Emperor, they have a sense of entitlement about it (it's what caused the Horus Heresy after all). There ARE sisters whose faith has faltered, and Sisters declared witches because of developing psychic powers or something similar (there's an example in the Radical's Handbook), and some Sisters declared heretics by some individual or other over the years, but none of them fell to true Chaos worship.

If it looks like a No True Scotsman, and sounds like a No True Scotsman, and walks like a No True Scotsman...

Why are none of those considered true chaos worship?

Because through all of it, they still worshipped the Emperor, not the Dark Gods of Chaos.

Necrosis wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

I just find it really ludicrous that in, what, four thousand years not more than one sister has fallen to chaos, when you guys maintain that there's more sisters than all of the space marines combined given everywhere they're supposed to have a presence.

It's what makes sisters special and unique.

No, it's what makes Grey Knights special and unique, because there has never been a Grey Knight that fell to worshipping Chaos. It's kind of their shtick.

Their faith in the Emperor is so strong that suddenly their bolters rend and their armour save become invulnerable...etc. They see Death for the Emperor as the highest achievement one can attain, hence why they have the martyr rule.

It's honestly arguable that faith points represent a chaos deity granting them boons in response to their worship.

Melissia wrote:It's in Codex: Sisters of Battle, as I said.

To quote:

A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors.

Page #, I just searched all of Codex: SoB 2nd edition and the Miriael doesn't exist in it. Neither does Slaanesh.

Except that it is specifically stated to not be a psychic power.

Melissia wrote:Because through all of it, they still worshipped the Emperor, not the Dark Gods of Chaos.

They worshipped what they thought was the Emperor, sure.

Why couldn't they have been tricked into thinking that a demonic presence was that of the Emperor?

And if they had, would they still not be True chaos worshippers?

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Melissia wrote:Except that it is specifically stated to not be a psychic power.

(I assume this is in reference to my thing about faith points.)

So what? Not all demonic gifts are psychic powers.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

It's honestly arguable that faith points represent a chaos deity granting them boons in response to their worship.

Nope, read page 18 of the witch hunter codex. Its the manifestation of the Emperor divine purpose.

Ixquic wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Uh no, his point(at least as I read it) was that if we're going to talk about the "validity" of fluff and discount Black Library--why the feth would we use a trading card as a background reference?

I don't have a copy on me. Is this in fluff, or is it in crunch?

If it's in fluff, is it stated by someone in a position to know the difference?

No, because there are no omniscient beings in 40k.

...Except for Tzeentch.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I don't have a copy on me. Is this in fluff, or is it in crunch?

If it's in fluff, is it stated by someone in a position to know the difference?

No, because there are no omniscient beings in 40k.

...Except for Tzeentch.

Crunch. "AoF are a manifestation of the Emperor's Divine Will..."

It's in the rules section that explains how they work.

How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

But mine is RAW. Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Codex: WH p 18 wrote:
Acts of Faith
Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment. How many Acts of Faith can be attempted during a game, and which units can make use of them are described below.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ixquic wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:
Trading card

What?

There's a trading card that says they are immune to Chaos and we're gonna use that?

Pic or GTFO

My mistake thought that they had the fluff quote on the card itself.

Card does exist tho'
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Miriael_Sabathiel

Uh no, his point(at least as I read it) was that if we're going to talk about the "validity" of fluff and discount Black Library--why the feth would we use a trading card as a background reference?

...and I admitted the caption from a short story wasn't on the card and the point is moot so I'm not sure what you're so strung up about.

pretre wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:How can the Emperor have a divine will? He's a corpsicle.

You can play it your way, but as far as I'm concerned my explanation explains more.

But mine is RAW. Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.

Seriously not EVERYTHING that people think is good has to really be the evil machinations of Chaos.

pretre wrote:But mine is RAW.

Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

Read C: WH, it's black and white in the Crunchy Rules section. Their faith in the emperor and his Divine Will give them supernatural powers. Not fluff, rules.

Uh.

That's fluff. It's not crunch.

Not to mention, what do you think the Astronomican is? It's his Divine Will.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:Seriously not EVERYTHING that people think is good has to really be the evil machinations of Chaos.

Not everything good, just everything that seems way too good to be true.

This quote about the one fallen sister seems to be from the First Person perspective of a Canoness in one short story.

That doesn't seem terribly authoritative.

Second.

It really seems like the only reason to think that only one sister has fallen to Chaos is that everyone else on the way there gets "martyred" before arriving at the destination.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

No but the explanations of the world's physics in the rules are.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

My bad, he doesn't generate it. He guides it.

"Although the Emperor does not provide the energy of the beacon, only he has the psychic power to handle such immense energy and direct it across the galaxy. "
"This psychic power is directed by the mind of the Emperor across about fifty thousand light years of the galaxy."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Problems with canon
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas
The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors."

However this is clearly contradicted by the Graphic novel Daemonifuge in which a Sister was seduced by a Navigator (who had been corrupted by a daemonic servant of Slaanesh) and several Sisters were completely corrupted by a Keeper of Secrets, a greater Daemon of Slaanesh. The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soooo.... Not so much on that no sisters have turned thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I know, I know... You only accept Codexes and Dark Heresy because BL are heretics that eat babies.

pretre wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Repeat after me: the game rules are not the world's physics.

No but the explanations of the world's physics in the rules are.

But those explanations are fluff, not crunch.

It's the energy of an untold number of psykers being fed into the golden throne and output to programmed coordinates.

So following on from that, Sisters get their faith points from cannibalising psykers and taking energy away from the Astronomican.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astronomican

My bad, he doesn't generate it. He guides it.

"Although the Emperor does not provide the energy of the beacon, only he has the psychic power to handle such immense energy and direct it across the galaxy. "
"This psychic power is directed by the mind of the Emperor across about fifty thousand light years of the galaxy."

What evidence are we given to believe this over the idea that the Golden Throne does all the directing?

Or are we just told that this is how it is?

I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

Meh. Whatever. I'll continue liking the Sisters for what they are to me; shining symbols of what is best about humanity in the war-torn darkness of the 40k universe. Not perfect, but they are at least pure; each Order doing their best to make the galaxy a better place for the various loyal members of the Imperium. Sometimes they don't do it right, sometimes they kill the innocent as well as the wicked. Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail. If they didn't, they'd be an army of Mary Sues-- they aren't.

But they are, at least, pure of soul; even if they are but human, they have that much going for them. It's one of the core concepts for them, to me.

Now your just going into crazy conspiracy theories.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
What evidence are we given to believe this over the idea that the Golden Throne does all the directing?

Or are we just told that this is how it is?

We can play the 'you can't prove it' game all day long. But when it comes down to it, the crunch and fluff tell us these things. Yes, we can't be sure that 10 years from now Gav won't come out and say 'AHA TRICKED YOUZ!!!!ONE1' But based on the information we have now in both fluff and rules, the Astronomican is driven by his will and the sisters use his will to do crazy supernatural stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

You're like the queen of Hyperbole.

Well Melissia, that's the difference between the Sisters and the Grey Knights.

Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Oh sure, they appear human, but when it gets down to it they're as close to human as the Primarchs and the Emperor were.

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Which, in my eyes, makes Sisters BETTER than Grey Knights.

[edit: delete]

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters are human. The Grey Knights aren't.

Which, in my eyes, makes Sisters BETTER than Grey Knights.

It makes them easier to associate with and get into the mindset of(if you're a religious fanatic who's got no problems martyring yourself at least ), sure.

Better? I dunno about that

Melissia wrote:I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

It's more plausible to me that no Grey Knight has fallen to the lure of Chaos than it is that no Sister has fallen because Grey Knights are dedicated to fighting Chaos and have safeguards against that which only come from experience.

Further, there's a much smaller number of Grey Knights than there is Sisters. On the law of averages alone it's more likely that a sister will fall than it is that a grey knight will fall.

Melissia wrote:Meh. Whatever. I'll continue liking the Sisters for what they are to me; shining symbols of what is best about humanity in the war-torn darkness of the 40k universe. Not perfect, but they are at least pure; each Order doing their best to make the galaxy a better place for the various loyal members of the Imperium. Sometimes they don't do it right, sometimes they kill the innocent as well as the wicked. Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail. If they didn't, they'd be an army of Mary Sues-- they aren't.

But they are, at least, pure of soul; even if they are but human, they have that much going for them. It's one of the core concepts for them, to me.

Sometimes they falter, and sometimes they fail, but they don't fall to Chaos... just because, you see.

I don't find it believable at all that Grey Knights wouldn't whereas Sisters would. They both fight the same enemies, roughly speaking-- Sisters fight chaos and heretics all the time, it's part of their job description. They also fight other enemies, yes, but you would be the first person to deny that Sisters fight heresy. Yes, Grey Knights do have safeguards, but they're all psykers, so the danger to them is even worse than the danger to Sisters, so they need safeguards. The Sisters' safeguards are in their minds and beliefs.

Melissia wrote:I don't find it believable at all that Grey Knights wouldn't whereas Sisters would. They both fight the same enemies, roughly speaking-- Sisters fight chaos and heretics all the time, it's part of their job description. They also fight other enemies, yes, but you would be the first person to deny that Sisters fight heresy.

Not at all.

I'd be the first person to deny that all heresy = chaos, though.

Yes, Grey Knights do have safeguards, but they're all psykers, so the danger to them is even worse than the danger to Sisters, so they need safeguards. The Sisters' safeguards are in their minds and beliefs.

And yet you maintain that there are more sisters than there are Space Marines, and that only one has fallen to the lure of Chaos.

And yet they're human, they have no extranormal safeguards against chaos.

And you persist in talking about marinewank.

We can sit here and come up with all those crazy theories and stuff. But as it stands so far only one sisters has chosen to fall to chaos. Their are several sources to back this up. Every other incident was either sisters being mind controlled or possessed in which case they did not choose to fall to chaos.

Necrosis wrote:We can sit here and come up with all those crazy theories and stuff. But as it stands so far only one sisters has chosen to fall to chaos. Their are several sources to back this up. Every other incident was either sisters being mind controlled or possessed in which case they did not choose to fall to chaos.

pretre wrote:However this is clearly contradicted by the Graphic novel Daemonifuge in which a Sister was seduced by a Navigator (who had been corrupted by a daemonic servant of Slaanesh) and several Sisters were completely corrupted by a Keeper of Secrets, a greater Daemon of Slaanesh. The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence.

Hrmm.

Yes, I do. It isn't wankery, that would be if I suggested that Sisters are the best, that they deserve the best, that they deserve more attention than everyone else, that they are better than everyone else, that they need a dozen codices all to themselves, oh and I did I mention that they are also the best?

I don't suggest any of that, in any way. I merely suggest that purity of soul is one of the defining aspects of the Sisterhood.



edit: And yes, I have specificaly stated that I am not satisfied with the unkind treatment the Sisters get in BL books. Only a SINGLE Black Library book has made Sisters into something one could call even remotely heroic.

Incidentally, 1 sister worshipping chaos is a worse track record than the Grey Knights, who have had a grand total of zero chaos worshippers in their ranks.

So it's proven that Sisters can fall to chaos. It definately can happen. While it theoretically could happen that a Grey Knight falls to Chaos, it hasn't happened yet.

This isn't fanwank, this is FAW.

Necrosis wrote:We can sit here and come up with all those crazy theories and stuff. But as it stands so far only one sisters has chosen to fall to chaos. Their are several sources to back this up. Every other incident was either sisters being mind controlled or possessed in which case they did not choose to fall to chaos.

An entire Order turns traitor in "Redemption Corps".

And "being mind-controlled or possessed" still means that they fell to Chaos.

You don't get to pick and choose. If you did, you'd note that the Alpha Legion is still a "Loyalist" Chapter due to the fact that they chose to essentially "go undercover" during the Horus Heresy and have remained so since.

Melissia wrote:Yes, I do. It isn't wankery, that would be if I suggested that Sisters are the best, that they deserve the best, that they deserve more attention than everyone else, that they are better than everyone else, that they need a dozen codices all to themselves, oh and I did I mention that they are also the best?

That's not the defining characteristic of spank as you've been using it to describe what you think is my obsession with Grey Knights (which, incidentally, I do not have. I don't even have any Grey Knights models.). You used it in response to my stating things that I believe to be true about the Grey Knights.

I don't suggest any of that, in any way. I merely suggest that purity of soul is one of the defining aspects of the Sisterhood.

Which nicely fits into your definition of wankery, because if the sisters are human, then they are, by definition, corruptible, seducable, and all those other nasty things that having just a little bit of personality gives you.

Yes, I can. Do you also want to say that Marines are too stupid to remember mission briefings, and that TERMINATORS don't remember that they have cyclone missile launchers until the battle is almost over? Do you want to believe that one human can take out three charging Khornate Berzerkers with nothing but a chainsword, a laspistol, and a plan? Do you want to believe that a single Marine can take out thousands of Dark Eldar warriors in a single battle and come out of it ready for more, with nary a scratch on him?

All of these are canon if you consider all BL books canon. Face it, BL authors are complete arse.

I don't suggest any of that, in any way. I merely suggest that purity of soul is one of the defining aspects of the Sisterhood.

It's important to note that Purity of the Soul is not incompatible with temptation as well.

They are defined by purity, but we are also defined by the challenges in life. If we cannot fail at something than not only is it not a challenge, but when we continue to do good at that thing it is unimpressive.

The Sisters faith and purity is impressive because they CAN fall to chaos but in the majority Don't.

Perfect=Boring

Good thing I never suggested perfection. Fun times.

Melissia wrote:Yes, I can. Do you also want to say that Marines are too stupid to remember mission briefings, and that TERMINATORS don't remember that they have cyclone missile launchers until the battle is almost over? Do you want to believe that one human can take out three charging Khornate Berzerkers with nothing but a chainsword, a laspistol, and a plan? Do you want to believe that a single Marine can take out thousands of Dark Eldar warriors in a single battle and come out of it ready for more, with nary a scratch on him?

All of these are canon if you consider all BL books canon. Face it, BL authors are complete arse.

They may be arse, but those things are part of the universe. You take the good, you take the bad.

Multilazors!!! are as much a part of 40k as anything else. Insert some metaphor for a infinite universe having infinite possibilities as an explanation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Good thing I never suggested perfection. Fun times.

Good thing you ignored the other half of my post.

Yes, I did. I'm kinda getting tired of the conversation, so meh, not really reading the entire post. Sorry. Should probably get ready to fix dinner soon...

Melissia wrote:Good thing I never suggested perfection. Fun times.

Ah, but you did. You implied that sisters cannot, bar being whatsherface, fall to chaos; they they are perfect paragons of moral virtue.

Sisterwank, in short.

I said they did not (save for one), not that they cannot.

*resists the urge to make a woman+kitchen joke about Sisters*


I'm just glad they're retconning Goto's ridiculous crap out. The "Dawn of War" books have supposedly been stopped from printing anymore, as have his Deathwatch books.

So we just wait for the current stock to run out and then voila! NO MOAR!

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:They should make....... CHAOS SISTERS! Evil sisters whom summon daemons and have resolute faith in the dark gods.


Because everything is better with Chaos.

Thanks for that. That's exactly what we need. Let me guess... Slanesh?

Sigh. Is there a facepalm orkmoticon?

Actually, Undivided/all of them. Just like CSM. Nurgle sisters, tzeentch sisters, the whole sha-bang. Would be awesome, me thinks. I wrote some (horrible and not thought out rules) for a dark sisterhood a few days ago, actually.

Melissia wrote:I find it an incredible double standard that it's okay for no Grey Knight to have fallen, but oh, if you DARE suggest that the Sisters are nigh-incorruptible, you get a wall of nerdrage and outrage... heh... marinewank indeed.

Just for posterity.

So not that they cannot, that it's nearly impossible.

Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous.

Alright, you know what?

As soon as they bring out plastic sisters, I'm making a Khornate Sisters army.

You better hope Sisters never come out in plastic.

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous.

Alright, you know what?

As soon as they bring out plastic sisters, I'm making a Khornate Sisters army.

You better hope Sisters never come out in plastic.

You're just contrary.

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

No you would just have a word bearer sister army.

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

Unique army nothing like the other power armored daemon summoning army with possessed troops. Oh, but they have buffs.

Let's get our normal sisters updated first before we worry about chaos sisters.

pretre wrote:You're just contrary.

I regret nothing.

Kanluwen wrote:*resists the urge to make a woman+kitchen joke about Sisters*


I'm just glad they're retconning Goto's ridiculous crap out. The "Dawn of War" books have supposedly been stopped from printing anymore, as have his Deathwatch books.

So we just wait for the current stock to run out and then voila! NO MOAR!

I thought they were forcing him to rewrite it? Firing him would be better... but this is a bit off topic.




Anyway... what to do with Sisters... mY suggestion:


HQ Choices
1: Adepta Sororitas Heroine (IE, Canoness and Palatine, but rolled into one statline)
2: Sub-Heroine of some sort (IE, a veteran Sister, same stats as a Celestian VSS but with a second wound)
3: High Priestess (Some form of high-level Ecclesiarchy official)
4: A fourth choice?
--- Redemptionist preacher?
--- Something connected with the Mechanicus? (all other Imperial armies have them)
--- Lower level Ecclesiarchy official?

Elites Choices
1: Celestians (with BP+CCW)
2: Sisters Repentia (vastly rebalanced)
3: Arco-Flagellants
4: Priest squads?
5: A unit of elite storm bolter wielding Sisters?
6: A sniper squad?
7: A highly customizable, yet small group of Sisters veterans? Thinking more like Nobz or Command Squads than Sternguard/Vanguard.

Troops Choices
1: Battle Sisters
2: Novitiates (Graduates from the Schola Progenium whom have not yet earned their bolter and power armor)
3: Frateris Militia?

Fast Attack Choices
1: Dominions (with Scouts to make them worth taking, and repriced special weapons options)
2: Seraphim
3: Some form of fast tank based off of the Immolator?
4: Some form of deep striking / infiltrating Sisters (one or the other)?
5: Bikers / Jetbikers? Something which allows for the mental image of Sisters on motorcycles jousting their enemies with power spears / eviscerators (dunno, that really appeals to me).
6: Some sort of Frateris Militia FA choice, perhaps Red Redemptionists in an open topped transport?

Heavy Support Choices
1: Retributors (with more/better weapons choices, that let them compete with Exorcists)
2: Exorcist
3: Penitent Engines
4: Some form of heavy tank (I suggest an LR variant, but perhaps an up-armored exorcist with more weapons could work...)
5: Some form of flame-based artillery (an Exorcist variant that launches a barrage of S4 AP5 small blasts that ignore cover?

No Venerable Seraphims?

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

No you would just have a word bearer sister army.

Well, since the Word Bearers no longer have special rules.....

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

Unique army nothing like the other power armored daemon summoning army with possessed troops. Oh, but they have buffs.

Let's get our normal sisters updated first before we worry about chaos sisters.

Well, since they are more than likely going to take away the daemon summoning in the next CSM book (or at least, I hope to the Warp they do), It does kinda leave a little to be left for a daemon summoning army. And by this logic, you could eliminate Sisters, Grey Knights, Wolves, Blood Angels, and all the others, because they are almost all T4 3+save armies that use the same equipement and armor

Agreed on the normal sisters though.

Necrosis wrote:No Venerable Seraphims?

YOu mean like Vets?

Seraphim are already Vets.

Venerable ones probably would be too weak to Jump Pack.

Didn't you have something about Power Weapon wielding Crusader types?

Or was that someone else?

Either way, high WS plus PW = Good.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Didn't you have something about Power Weapon wielding Crusader types?

Or was that someone else?

Either way, high WS plus PW = Good.

Yep . I like the idea of Sisters on bikes with power spears charging enemy lines like an old cavalry charge. Only, of course, with a sci-fi Twist

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

No you would just have a word bearer sister army.

Well, since the Word Bearers no longer have special rules.....

pretre wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Chaos sisters is dumb. Having one chaos sister is ok but having a bunch of them is just ridiculous. If they make chaos sisters it will make sisters more like marines. That's the last thing we need.

Not if they fundamentally changed them in the process. Turn them into a daemon summoning, daemon possessed army, where their psychic/Faith powers buff daemons within so close (Blessing of Nurgle: All Daemon units within 12 inches gain FNP, stuff like that) And you would have a pretty unique army.

Unique army nothing like the other power armored daemon summoning army with possessed troops. Oh, but they have buffs.

Let's get our normal sisters updated first before we worry about chaos sisters.

Well, since they are more than likely going to take away the daemon summoning in the next CSM book (or at least, I hope to the Warp they do), It does kinda leave a little to be left for a daemon summoning army. And by this logic, you could eliminate Sisters, Grey Knights, Wolves, Blood Angels, and all the others, because they are almost all T4 3+save armies that use the same equipement and armor

Agreed on the normal sisters though.

But their fluff would be the same as word bearers. Hence you have just made sisters more like marines now.

@pretre

Venerable Seraphims are an elite group of Seraphims.