Nosferatu: The only way a photon torpedo can be 'dial a yield' is to alter the amount of antimatter present in the warhead, cause no matter what you say, the amount of antimatter in the warhead will react with matter and release energy. This can not be controlled. And, please do not use made up units like 'isotons' as we have no idea what that is? HOw many tons are in an isoton? How many kilograms? Until you can answer questions like that about isotons you can not use it as an effective unit of measure.
Now, please note that Federation ships seems to NEVER do this warp strafing attack that you mention. They never engage each other at FTL speeds. They always exit warp travel and slow to sublight travel before engaging the enemy. The only time we have seen any kind of FTL combat to my knowledge is the Borg 'energy drain' weapon fired on the Enterprise in Q Who? ,and the Federation doesn't have that weapon, so that is a useless point. The fact is, Federation ships always slow to sublight speeds to engage their enemies. Even in the Battle of Maxia against an enemy lacking FTL sensors, the Stargaze dropped to sublight to fire its weapons. If it could fire its weapons on an enemy while travelling at FTL speeds, I can not find a good reason it would not have done so.
And besides, you have ignored my point about the strategic effectiveness of the PM. It is a long conceded point that the Imperial Fleet has many many more ships compared to the Federation. So until you can show how the PM will be useful in a pitched battle, we have to acknowledge that the PM will be an attack useful in one on one ship confrontations. In a pitched battle with hundreds of ships on each side, the Federation ships utilizing the PM would find themselves face to face with a crap ton of very very pissed off Imperial ships. The Federation fleet will be annhilated after launching their attack, and Starfleet will be all but annihilated after only a few battles.
A new point would be the skill of the crew necessary to carry it out. If it was a manuever that any ship in the Federation could use without an unusually experienced or trained crew, we would see it used a lot more often. The simple facts are that very few crews have the skill to utilize the attack, and we can't assume every ship can do the PM Finally, you never responded to my point about the resilience of Imperial armor and shielding. Imperial void shielding has demonstrated effectiveness against weapons that can destroy entire continents, let alone shields, and even if the void shields were dropped and the photo torp was fired at the unshielded hulll, we have to not that vaporization is not guaranteed. The firepower needed to destroy a city made out of individual, relatively soft buildings is not equal to the power needed to destroy a five mile length of hardened adamantium and ceramite armor.
Also, please note that I was not the one make the point about Imperial ships jumping in, firing weapons and jumping out. I believe that was....Gorskar? Iono. You can go back and look it up if you'd like.
Also, I don't know who first came up with the idea of multiple phase shielded dreadnought style missiles, but here's my refutation. You have to build the bloody things. Sure, you can use decomissioned hulks, converted civilian vessels and damaged warships, but even then you have to take up dry dock space for the purpose of converting those hulls into the missiles. Not to mention the time it would take to build the number of phase cloaking devices required. Remember, those devices are banned by treaty and the Federation isn't the type of organization to break treaties. More importanly, the only time we saw the device it was a tempermental prototype. The Federation doesn't have factories pumping out phase cloaks, and there would be a lag time necessary to a) get the treaty nullified, and b) getting the phase cloaks into production. Quite simply, the missiles may destroy huge chunks of Imperial fleets, but ultimately it would be little better than the German Wunderwaffen. Too little, too late.
Klawz wrote:But, if you're going to assume that ST physic = 40k physic, then you have to at least assume ST shield = 40k shield...
No, you don't. At the very least, they have entirely different levels of power.
But how strong is a Warhound's shield? How strong in comparison to a ST shied is it?
if that is the case then ST warp must then too = 40k warp or vica versea
In all honesty, there's a lot of difference between shielding and warp travel, and the Warp. Federation warp travel is, in principle, the creation of a bubble of real space around a vessel and then compression real space in front of the vessel, allowing the vessel to violate Einstein's relativity.
On the other hand, the Warp is an alternate dimension where a ship can't travel faster than light, but a distance covered in the Warp translates into a much larger distance traveled in real space.
When it comes to shield technology though, we honestly have no idea how either shield technology works, but...we know the amount of power each can absorb. For this discussion, that's what matters. We aren't arguing engineering or science of the series, but military conflict.
Currently, we have Federation shields being able to dissipate 3311 GW of energy before failing. (Source: Star Trek TNG Technical Manual). We have no idea how strong an Imperial shield is, but we know that it's able to dissipate the hit of a lance, which is rated at powerful enough to destroy entire continents.
look were it M31 the imperium WOULD win hands down seeing as the emperor would simply make the mechanicus make some new tech as they were not so closed minded back then. the imperium would not resort to psychic dominance. but as it is not they cannot hope to win seeing as their tech has fallen so far
ChrisWWII - will you stop using a made up term like "lance" then?
I am simply referencing the internal scale used by ST. Ignore it if you like...
Reference to dialable yield: "high energy burst level 6" TNG: Redemption.
The explosive yield (of the type-6 torpedo) can be set to ten different levels. Level 1 is just a fireworks display, level 5 is the standard yield of one kilogram antimatter charge and level 10 violates strategic arms limitation treaties.
Reference to Torpedos fired at warp speed:
The propulsion system of the torpedoes is a warp sustainer engine. The engine coils of the torpedo grab and hold a hand-off field from the launcher tube's sequential field induction coils. A miniature matter/antimatter fuel cell adds power to the hand-off field. When launched in warp flight, torpedo will continue to travel at warp, when launched at sublight, torpedo will travel at a high sublight speed, but will not cross the warp threshold. (pg. 129)
So Trek ships ALWAYS drop to sublight? Wrong. ther have been a number of instances where they have fired on ships in warp - or been fired on. However it is more difficult to fire between two ships at warp (at least until the warp bubbles merge) but it IS possible - just not as efficient. You just keep missing the obvious - ST tactics against other warp drive ships will be different to ST tactics against an enemy that is not only slower in real space but cannot jump to >light speed anywhere nearly as quickly AND cannot see you unless you decide to drop out of warp....can you not see that certain tactics that are less viable in the Trek only universe are suddenly more viable now?
[BTW Stop talking in absolutes, it doesnt help your argument]
In addition - why shouldnt the ship drop to sublight against the Ferengi ship? At sublight you can use phasers as well as torpedos, improving your odds. However that was a lone ship which didnt know where the stargazer was - against an IoM fleet you would not drop to sublight - you would fire the torpedoes from warp (as has been proven above) and kee on trucking.
You have yet to show a single, credible reason why a ship which can fire at warp WOULD drop out of warp to engage an IoM fleet, therefore any argument predicated on such an event is flawed to begin with.
As to me "ignoring" you on the strategic relevance of the PM - I havent. I have answered you EXPLICITLY a number of times. Demonstrate why they would *need* to drop out of warp to hit your ship, and then you can talk about the hundreds of ships in an IoM fleet - until then they are not only irrelevant, they increase the odds of you hitting something many times over.
Your "point" about shields is irrelevant AND was answered abvout page 2 when someone else brought it up - canon, void shields do NOT protect ships against matter based weapons, like torpedos. Why do you think noone has bothered talking about phasers?
Your "yield" questions have been answered and refuted as well - I dont need to destroy the entire ship in one hit,l and I dont need to destroy it all. If you destroy the plasma storage vessels which house the reactants, or even breach the shielding, the ship will eat itself and be dead in space, or at worst it will explode. See the Brokenback, 5th souldrinkiers novel, and so many others it isnt funny. You do NOT need to vaporise the vessel, just cripple it - destroy the engines the vessel is now useless.
Level of training needed fgor the PM: you can program the ships computer to do it. Hell, you dont even need to do a true PM - just bombard the nice, fat , slow moving IoM ship from warp, with your FTl sensors that can pinpoint all the nice high priority targets with ease, before passing this info to your intelligent, highliy manouverable torpedo. That also travels at >c.
Can you agree you concede on the "dumb ballistic warheads" tactic being useless? Found anythihng canon about 40k Psykers detecting lifesigns on vessels moving at >c AND being able to acurately plot their course?
Can you concede that, in battle there is no KNOWN reason why the trek ships would have to drop to sublight? I have demonstrated capability time and time again, if you can concede that point your tactical thinking may generate something more useful than "1000s of IoM ships!!" that the IoM can do. I am interested as there must be something, however unless you can first see you enemy effectively combatting them seems to be tricky.
ChrisWWII wrote:Nosferatu: The only way a photon torpedo can be 'dial a yield' is to alter the amount of antimatter present in the warhead, cause no matter what you say, the amount of antimatter in the warhead will react with matter and release energy. This can not be controlled. And, please do not use made up units like 'isotons' as we have no idea what that is? HOw many tons are in an isoton? How many kilograms? Until you can answer questions like that about isotons you can not use it as an effective unit of measure.
In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual a figure of 1,5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons.
Furthermore it is not clear if the 1,5 kg should be compared to the 200 isoton figure given on-screen, or the 25 isoton figure given in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.
From http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isoton
ChrisWWII wrote:
Now, please note that Federation ships seems to NEVER do this warp strafing attack that you mention. They never engage each other at FTL speeds. They always exit warp travel and slow to sublight travel before engaging the enemy. The only time we have seen any kind of FTL combat to my knowledge is the Borg 'energy drain' weapon fired on the Enterprise in Q Who? ,and the Federation doesn't have that weapon, so that is a useless point. The fact is, Federation ships always slow to sublight speeds to engage their enemies. Even in the Battle of Maxia against an enemy lacking FTL sensors, the Stargaze dropped to sublight to fire its weapons. If it could fire its weapons on an enemy while travelling at FTL speeds, I can not find a good reason it would not have done so.
In the series and movies, starships frequently attack each other while at warp, and only drop to impulse once the warp field is destabilized or the warp drive is damaged.
ChrisWWII wrote:
And besides, you have ignored my point about the strategic effectiveness of the PM. It is a long conceded point that the Imperial Fleet has many many more ships compared to the Federation. So until you can show how the PM will be useful in a pitched battle, we have to acknowledge that the PM will be an attack useful in one on one ship confrontations. In a pitched battle with hundreds of ships on each side, the Federation ships utilizing the PM would find themselves face to face with a crap ton of very very pissed off Imperial ships. The Federation fleet will be annhilated after launching their attack, and Starfleet will be all but annihilated after only a few battles.
A new point would be the skill of the crew necessary to carry it out. If it was a manuever that any ship in the Federation could use without an unusually experienced or trained crew, we would see it used a lot more often. The simple facts are that very few crews have the skill to utilize the attack, and we can't assume every ship can do the PM Finally, you never responded to my point about the resilience of Imperial armor and shielding. Imperial void shielding has demonstrated effectiveness against weapons that can destroy entire continents, let alone shields, and even if the void shields were dropped and the photo torp was fired at the unshielded hulll, we have to not that vaporization is not guaranteed. The firepower needed to destroy a city made out of individual, relatively soft buildings is not equal to the power needed to destroy a five mile length of hardened adamantium and ceramite armor.
Regarding Imperial armor and shielding, the only quote I can find about the streangth of adamantium is
Adamantium is perhaps the strongest material used by the Imperium, impenetrable to most commonplace weapons. It is the material composing the Imperial Palace's Eternity Gate1, and is often used in conjunction with plasteel and ceramite, such as in the structure of Terminator Armour.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adamantium (supposedly from 3rd ed BRB (but it's big so I haven't checked it myself).
This gives us very little other than telling us it is one of the strongest materials the IoM uses.
In comparison, Fedreation starships (at least the later classes) were built with a Tritanium alloy.
Tritanium is an ore that is known to be 21.4 times as hard as diamond.Tritanium alloy was a widely-used construction material. The bulkheads of Federation starships, specifically of the Galaxy-class and Intrepid-class, were composed of tritanium.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tritanium Here we at least have a measure for the strength of the unprocessed ore, with the unknown factor being how effective it becomes when processed, and how much it is reinforced by structural integrity fields.
When it comes to shields, we know that federation shields have weaknesses (Jem'Hadar weapons initially ignored federation shields, but the same shields were
adapted to remain effective). Federation shields can also be modified to give the starship the ability to enter the corona of a star using Metaphasic shields
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Metaphasic_shield (how much of a modification is needed for this is unclear, but it was done while in space on the Enterprise).
In general the strength of a shield relative to a weapon is hard to calculate because of all the factors involved, but one example of shield strength is
A Constitution-class starship's shields could take the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes at once. (TOS: "The Changeling")
(but remember these are kirk era shields, and kirk era photon torpedoes)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shields
Void shields: The shields use Warp technology to displace ranged attacks. It is unclear whether Void Shields neutralize the projectile, transport it to the Warp, or exactly how the shielding is accomplished. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Void_Shield.
This is even harder to work with than star trek shields (since there is less information on how they work).
For people dragging captured demons in to the mix, this makes it unlikely they can ignore federation shields as easily.
Any objects, unless fired at or striking the shield with phenomenal power, simply bounce off or are halted in mid-air. Organic materials, liquids or simply energy with harmful potential (e.g. a laser) are stopped or dissipated. Explosive munitions will detonate on contact. Any object caught in the field when activated is simply sliced in half. For instance, a human body caught in the beam will be sliced in half as if viewed in cross-section and munitions caught in this way are destroyed explosively. This makes the void field deadly, if impractical in attack rather than defensive situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium#Void_shields These shields seem to be effective against most forms of attack, so Starfleet would have to find a way to penetrate them either with brute force, or by bypassing them in some way
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.
A photorp is an antimatter weapon. It doesn't matter what your hull composition is, considering that once the containment field is penetrated, the antimatter and the matter of the target's hull will mutually annihilate and give off energy. This reaction doesn't care what kind of matter the hull is made of.
In my view, the trouble is that there really isn't any clear indication of how void shields function, nor what they stop. I am fairly certain that they wouldn't stop something equipped with an interphasic cloak, but you'd definitely need higher yields than standard photorps to compete with IoM armored hulls. I think that the "Dreadnought" Cardassian weapon from the Voyager episode of the same name would be fairly effective (possibly one-shotting an IoM ship), if it were able to bypass the void shields, being that it travels up to Warp 9, is self guiding, shielded, can defend itself from enemy fighters with its disruptor banks and has a one ton antimatter payload. With such weapons in existence, it seems foolhardy to me to actually send SHIPS to engage the IoM.
Remember in BFG void shileds DON'T stop torpedoes or bombers or ramming. Torps would be nice and effective.
Accersitus - thanks for posting that, I didnt want to copy quite so much from MA
However see Frazzleds post - the comment about stopping projectiles seems to only work on titans and smaller, as void shields do nothing to torps/dreadclaws etc in BFG.
Now, while this may be a "game mechanic" it IS canon and so, like the narrative reasons for transporter failure are ignored in this assesment.
ChrisWWII wrote:Also, I don't know who first came up with the idea of multiple phase shielded dreadnought style missiles, but here's my refutation. You have to build the bloody things. Sure, you can use decomissioned hulks, converted civilian vessels and damaged warships, but even then you have to take up dry dock space for the purpose of converting those hulls into the missiles. Not to mention the time it would take to build the number of phase cloaking devices required. Remember, those devices are banned by treaty and the Federation isn't the type of organization to break treaties. More importanly, the only time we saw the device it was a tempermental prototype. The Federation doesn't have factories pumping out phase cloaks, and there would be a lag time necessary to a) get the treaty nullified, and b) getting the phase cloaks into production. Quite simply, the missiles may destroy huge chunks of Imperial fleets, but ultimately it would be little better than the German Wunderwaffen. Too little, too late.
I think we'll have to disagree on the response speed here, as response speed is always dictated by the amount of peril that one is in. The UFP became increasingly ruthless during the Dominion War, as the stakes were increased - this of course included fabrication of evidence to force the Romulans into the war and attempted genocide of the Founders by contagion. While the upper echelons would profess ignorance about it - I can not see them waffling on such minor issues such as "treaties" if they are facing immenent annihilation.
On another point most of this discussion has focused around offense vs offense. Using the self replicating cloaked minefield technology seen in DS9 - there doesn't seem to be any reason why they couldn't defensively mine entire key systems. As a passive weapon, despite their relatively low yield, due to the immense size of IoM ships, I'm pretty sure that travelling through such a field would be crippling if not lethal.
Just checking, since I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet: Wouldn't a torpedo travelling at Warp 9 have a silly amount of kinetic energy? If that is the case, couldn't the UFP just mass-produce torpedo casings, fill them with something extremely dense and fire them while travelling at Warp speed? I guess it'd depend on the void shields tho'...
Nosferatu: There is a major difference between using a term like lance, and using a term like isoton. A lance is a weapon, and needs to be referred to in the in-universe term. An isoton is a unit of measure that MUST be quanitified before it can be used.
Well then, if a torpedo has a warp sustainer engine then it will STAY in a warp field, and pass harmlessly through any ship in real space. All examples of FTL combat in Star Trek occur between two ships travelling at warp speeds, and as such the multiple warp bubbles can exit and merge other warp bubbles. When it comes to Imperial ships traveling in another dimension, the warp bubble would not be able to hit Imperial vessels at warp.
And, to the DS9 minefield, you have to see that the density of the minefield isn't all that great, and could easily be bullrushed by an invading Imperial fleet without suffering major damage, not to mention the fact that the reason the minefield was even considered in the first place is the fact that the Federation had a chokepoint to mine in the first place. If they could have deployed such a self replicating minefield around major planets and systems during the Dominion War, they would have. There must be some kind of off screen logistical problem inherent with the minefield and it is not a wonderweapon.
Frazzled: There is a major diff though between Federation torpedoes and Imperial torpedoes. An Imperial topedoe is a relatively slow weapon fired at extreme range, while a Fed phototorp is a fast weapon fired at standard combat range. I believe a Federation photon torpedo would be more similar to the missiles included in Imperial weapons batteries, and would be intercepted by void shields.
Accersitus: Individual ships may fire nuisance shots at other individual ships while both are at warp, but in any large scale battle, the Federation drops to sublight before engaging the enemy fleet. Additionally, when book and TM guides contradict onscreen actions, we must take the onscreen action as the truth. That is Paramount's policy on canon.
=sigh= Nosferatu, I have already proven to you that Federation FTL sensors are not viable for combat operations. Also, remember Imperial ships won't be sitting still, they'll try and put their armored prows between them and the Federation fleet, and not expose their rear sections to the Feds. Besides, who even knows how precise Federation torpedoes are? We've seen how often they miss targets, so how do we know they can program a torpedo to hit in ONE exact point to do damage?
And I have refuted the torpedo point If it's at warp, it can't hurt anything in real space. And if the ship can do more damage in real space, why would they choose to limit their amount of firepower against the greatest threat the Federation has had to face? They would want maximum firepower, and would drop to real space to deal that damage.
I repeat. I did NOT make the point about ballistic weapons bombardment. That was someone else. Do not ask me to concede a point that is not my own. The same goes to the psyker point.
No I do not concede that they wouldn't drop to subspace. in every single battle of significant strategic size the Federation has ever fought they have dropped out of warp and into subspace. I call Occam's Razr. YOU have claimed that against a non-warp driven civilization the Federation would use different tactics. As this claim differs from all on screen actions, you must furnish evidence to support that claim. g
ChrisWWII wrote:Nosferatu: There is a major difference between using a term like lance, and using a term like isoton. A lance is a weapon, and needs to be referred to in the in-universe term. An isoton is a unit of measure that MUST be quanitified before it can be used.
Well then, if a torpedo has a warp sustainer engine then it will STAY in a warp field, and pass harmlessly through any ship in real space. All examples of FTL combat in Star Trek occur between two ships travelling at warp speeds, and as such the multiple warp bubbles can exit and merge other warp bubbles. When it comes to Imperial ships traveling in another dimension, the warp bubble would not be able to hit Imperial vessels at warp.
not correct. As I noted in the original series, the Enterprise, in real space, was strafed repeatedly by a Klingon D7 making warp speed passes.
ChrisWWII wrote:And, to the DS9 minefield, you have to see that the density of the minefield isn't all that great, and could easily be bullrushed by an invading Imperial fleet without suffering major damage, not to mention the fact that the reason the minefield was even considered in the first place is the fact that the Federation had a chokepoint to mine in the first place. If they could have deployed such a self replicating minefield around major planets and systems during the Dominion War, they would have. There must be some kind of off screen logistical problem inherent with the minefield and it is not a wonderweapon.
That's all well and good, but can you give some actual backing to your agruements?
1. "Some sort of off screen logistical problem" is purely speculation on your part - I'll give you the ST writers are consistently inconsistent in keeping track of reusable innovations - however, I can not agree with the logistical limitations arguement, as this technology was initially deployed by a space station with limited resources. A self replicating minefield by its very nature is infinitely scalable, given materials, and sufficient time - should able to populate any amount of space. Time would be reduced if the initial mines were placed at regular intervals.
2. "The density of the minefield isn't all that great" - what kind of density are you expecting? In the DS9 episode, it looked like they had a mine at least every 1/4 km or so (if not denser, to stop the very small Jem'Hedar ships from navigating it). It would appear that the self-replicating aspect also limits the range at which new mines are deposited. The IoM ships are enormous. Even if the mines were spread out, an Imperial cruiser, at 7+ km long and 2+kms high would hit an enormous number trying to bullrush through. While there's the issue of the IoM's super dense armor - matter of any sort will mutually annihilate when in contact with antimatter, so I'm not sure that kind of cumulative damage could be considered minor.
Frazzled wrote:
Remember in BFG void shileds DON'T stop torpedoes or bombers or ramming. Torps would be nice and effective.
But they DO stop weapons battery fire, which includes kinetic projectiles.
My opinion (not backed up by any canon) is that void shields stop anything moving above a given speed. Since weapons batteries include lasers, plasma cannon, macro cannon, and missile launchers, and they're all apparently roughly the same, that suggests to me that all those projectiles are moving at the speed of light, or most of it.
Imperial torpedoes, by contrast, move close to the same speed that ships do. That suggests to me that things moving at lower speeds can slip through void shields.
If that's so (if anyone else can propose a different explanation, by all means do so), Federation torpedoes would be fairly ineffective against Imperial ships. Someone mentioned earlier that a Constitution's shields could absorb 90 photon torpedoes at once. Assuming those are the standard yield setting (25 isotons), that works out to 2250 isotons of energy being dispersed with no ill effects, and we know Imperial void shields are an order of magnitude stronger than that.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Warp doesnt actually give you any KE at all - you arent the thing moving, the universe is. You exist warp with the same relative velocity you left at.
Its how warp gets arround the c limitation, just not useful for this situation!
But wouldn't that mean that instead of the torpedo hitting the ship at Warp 9, the ship hits the Torpedo at Warp 9, thus still making a huge hole in the hull?
ChrisWWII wrote:And, to the DS9 minefield, you have to see that the density of the minefield isn't all that great, and could easily be bullrushed by an invading Imperial fleet without suffering major damage, not to mention the fact that the reason the minefield was even considered in the first place is the fact that the Federation had a chokepoint to mine in the first place. If they could have deployed such a self replicating minefield around major planets and systems during the Dominion War, they would have. There must be some kind of off screen logistical problem inherent with the minefield and it is not a wonderweapon.
That's all well and good, but can you give some actual backing to your agruements?
1. "Some sort of off screen logistical problem" is purely speculation on your part - I'll give you the ST writers are consistently inconsistent in keeping track of reusable innovations - however, I can not agree with the logistical limitations arguement, as this technology was initially deployed by a space station with limited resources. A self replicating minefield by its very nature is infinitely scalable, given materials, and sufficient time - should able to populate any amount of space. Time would be reduced if the initial mines were placed at regular intervals.
2. "The density of the minefield isn't all that great" - what kind of density are you expecting? In the DS9 episode, it looked like they had a mine at least every 1/4 km or so (if not denser, to stop the very small Jem'Hedar ships from navigating it). It would appear that the self-replicating aspect also limits the range at which new mines are deposited. The IoM ships are enormous. Even if the mines were spread out, an Imperial cruiser, at 7+ km long and 2+kms high would hit an enormous number trying to bullrush through. While there's the issue of the IoM's super dense armor - matter of any sort will mutually annihilate when in contact with antimatter, so I'm not sure that kind of cumulative damage could be considered minor.
1. My reasoning behind the off screen logistical problem is that if a single space station with limited resources could deploy a minefield to block off the wormhole, and the blockage seemed succesful, why did the Federation not deploy such a minefield around all their worlds? We know during the Dominion war, Federation commanders where frightened about the Dominion assault key Federation worlds like Vulcan and even Earth. If they were capable of deploying the mine field to block off their systems, why would they not do so? It seems those minefields would give them a great advantage in a defensive battle. All we know is that they did not do so. There has to be some kind of reason that they did not do so, and as far as I can see there are two possibilities: 1) The minefield is not effective when deployed to defend an entire planetary system, or 2) There is some kind of logistical problem preventing the deployment of a minefield on that scale. Either of these reasons would void the deployment of the minefield as a defensive measure.
2. I'm currently trying to find the analysis done on stardestroyer.net that supports that assumption, and once I find it I will happily link it to you. But assuming your analysis of one mine ever 1/4 of a km is correct, we see that they deployed only one layer of mines, so there would be no further mines to exploit damage to the armor done by the first pass. Not to mention, the Imperial ships wouldn't be backing through the minefield. They'd be charging through with their heavily armored prows, which are described as being hundreds of meters thick. Even a single mine detonation would not penetrate this armor.
Frazzled:
Alright, I didn't see that point, but even then.....why don't we see this in large scale fleet battles? It seems to me if one fleet can strafe another with impunity the casualty conscience UFP would do this instead of fighting costly battles like they've been forced to. There must be some kind of limitation that makes the employment of warp strafing ineffective in large scale fleet battles, otherwise we would see it done much more often.
ChrisWWII wrote:Nosferatu: There is a major difference between using a term like lance, and using a term like isoton. A lance is a weapon, and needs to be referred to in the in-universe term. An isoton is a unit of measure that MUST be quanitified before it can be used.
And it has been - if you would read the links. Or the many times it has been quantified in thjis thread.
ChrisWWII wrote:Well then, if a torpedo has a warp sustainer engine then it will STAY in a warp field, and pass harmlessly through any ship in real space. All examples of FTL combat in Star Trek occur between two ships travelling at warp speeds, and as such the multiple warp bubbles can exit and merge other warp bubbles. When it comes to Imperial ships traveling in another dimension, the warp bubble would not be able to hit Imperial vessels at warp.
Uh, no. Wrong. First, you make the erroneous assumption that warp travel puts you in another dimension (it doesnt, what do you think deflector dishes are for? Not just sublight travel), and 2) you assume it cannot simply disengage the field (which it is sustaining with its own power remember) before hitting the vessel.
So no, it would hit. QED.
I have also never stated it could hit ships travelling in the Immaterium - however the federation doesnt need to, as the imperium have to come out of the warp to engage ships in real space. Nice strawman though, quite pretty if a little feeble.
ChrisWWII wrote:Frazzled: There is a major diff though between Federation torpedoes and Imperial torpedoes. An Imperial topedoe is a relatively slow weapon fired at extreme range, while a Fed phototorp is a fast weapon fired at standard combat range. I believe a Federation photon torpedo would be more similar to the missiles included in Imperial weapons batteries, and would be intercepted by void shields.
"You believe" does not constitute proof.
ChrisWWII wrote:Accersitus: Individual ships may fire nuisance shots at other individual ships while both are at warp, but in any large scale battle, the Federation drops to sublight before engaging the enemy fleet. Additionally, when book and TM guides contradict onscreen actions, we must take the onscreen action as the truth. That is Paramount's policy on canon.
They do not contradict, they add.
You are taking the premise "you have never seen a space battle conducted at warp" (which is wrong...) and extending it to "it is impossible to conduct battles at warp" - which is unsupportable. especialy as the first statement is wrong.
So when both books and the tv series show one thing, does that mean it isnt canon now?
ChrisWWII wrote:=sigh= Nosferatu, I have already proven to you that Federation FTL sensors are not viable for combat operations.
SIGH Chris, no, no you havenmt
You have "proven" that a Ship travelling at warp can attack a ship without FT light sensors.
Brilliant, you have proven my point. Again. Sorry you';re not getting this.
ChrisWWII wrote:Also, remember Imperial ships won't be sitting still, they'll try and put their armored prows between them and the Federation fleet,
Would that be the fleet they cannot see, the fleet that can move faster than they can see even IF they could see them to begin with and the fleet that is more manouverable than them by orders of magnitude?
Yeah. Right. Remember: fed sensors can detect which starsystem a ship is in from a distance of 10s of light years. Have you any idea how large a volume of space that is, and how little volume a star system takes up in comparison? Now take it down to light SECOND range.
Sorry, you have yet to demonstrate at all that IoM ships can manouver quickly, and you clearly dont understand what "relative speed" means. yes, they arent standing still. However they cannot change their relative position qucikly enough to significantly change their position. Meaning it can be plotted, a volume of space they can possibly be in calculated, and torpeedos aimed there. They can continue to send instructions while in flight to augment the torpedos already better than IoM sensors.
If you reckon they can do so, please provide hard stats on turning speeds etc. Would be good to see some.
ChrisWWII wrote:
and not expose their rear sections to the Feds. Besides, who even knows how precise Federation torpedoes are? We've seen how often they miss targets, so how do we know they can program a torpedo to hit in ONE exact point to do damage?
Again, you make a mistake: you have seen how often they miss targets that are a) significantly smaller than a IoM ship and b) that have FAR higher manouverability than an IoM ship. You then try to compare an apple to a full sized galley, and claim any kind of comparitor.
We know they can hit ONE EXACT spot to do damage as they do it all the damn time in the tv series. Hell even Khan could *precisely* hit the enterprise with a torpedo. [and phasers as well] - with 100 year old tech. From a less advanced ship.
ChrisWWII wrote:
And I have refuted the torpedo point If it's at warp, it can't hurt anything in real space.
Incorrect, see above. You do understand how warp drive "works", dont you? If not I can understand your problems...
ChrisWWII wrote: And if the ship can do more damage in real space, why would they choose to limit their amount of firepower against the greatest threat the Federation has had to face?
I assume that you arent seriously being as inane here as this sounds.
You have demonstrated that sheer force of numbers would obliterate a fed ship in real space. You then ask why wouldnt the feds drop out of warp, into real space. I think, if you look *really really* hard you may have your answer.
ChrisWWII wrote:They would want maximum firepower, and would drop to real space to deal that damage.
No, theyre not imbeciles, and have some grasp of tactics.
ChrisWWII wrote:I repeat. I did NOT make the point about ballistic weapons bombardment. That was someone else.
YUou supported it and came up with increasingly bizzare methods to try to make it work. And then went silent when every single one of them was shown to be more full of holes than the average ST episode.
ChrisWWII wrote:Do not ask me to concede a point that is not my own. The same goes to the psyker point.
When you support a post I can certainly ask you to concede it.
ChrisWWII wrote:No I do not concede that they wouldn't drop to subspace. in every single battle of significant strategic size the Federation has ever fought they have dropped out of warp and into subspace. I call Occam's Razr. YOU have claimed that against a non-warp driven civilization the Federation would use different tactics. As this claim differs from all on screen actions, you must furnish evidence to support that claim.
So I have to supply evidence that an attack for which the IoM has no defence wouldnt be used, and instead they would simply march headlong into the imperial fleet?
Sorry, but no. You have ignored the D7 strafe which removes your *entire arguments validity* in one go (thanks frazzled, if you can remember the episode I will look up the timecode for Chris) AND you assume a gross level of stupidity that is way out of character - in essence you are misusing occams razor.
The simplest solution is that they would maximise their tactical superiority: a place where they can hit with impunity without suffering any return damage, vs certain death. Which is the SIMPLER tactical solution?
Okay, the Federation wins. Maybe. If they rolled a and siezed the initiative. if they don't, they will be crushed in one massive go, as the IoM steamrolls them. Here's a question, how would the UFP know the IoM doesn't have FTL sensors?
Right now I honestly don't have time to fully reply to your post, Nosferatu, but once I get home I will type up a full reply. However, if you look a couple posts above you, you'll see that I did respond to frazzled's argument. Additionally, I NEVER supported the ballistics argument. I never even acknowledged it. It's not my argument, and if you want a discussion about ask the person who came up with it.
Edit: What the hell, screw being a good intern, I'll just make the response know.
Alright, I read the link to Memory Alpha, and it specifically says there is no conversion from isoton to real world metrics. We don't know what an isoton IS. Is it 1000 tons? A million? What? I don't know, and I doubt you do either. If you do have a proper metric conversion from isotons to real world tons, please enlighten me. Right now, the only conversion we have is that a photon torp has a yield of 25 isotons, and the description of a photon warhead results in 64 megatons. However, other uses of isotons contradict this, so we have no idea what an isoton really is.
I never said that warp travel puts you in another dimension, I merely acknowledged that in the series it seems that ships do not interact with objects outside their warp bubble. Any interactions we've observed occurring involve objects leaving the warp bubble, and entering real space. I was not trying to make a strawman, I was just basing off my previous argument, and I will concede that Federation torpedoes have the capability to drop out of warp speeds. However, I will not concede that the use of this tactic is a viable strategy. If it was, then we would see Federation ships flying about in warp, dropping torpedoes to hit enemy ships or installations and crippling them. This is definitely a course of action the Federation would pursue IF it could pursue it.
I know, 'I believe' is not proof. I was explaining to frazzled that the fact that an Imperial torpedo passes through void shields does not equal a Federation photon torpedo passing through void shields as there are major canonical differences between the two weapons. I was also pointing out that Imperial weapons batteries include missile launchers, and those missiles are intercepted by void shields. The nature of a photon torpedo seems to tie more closely to those weapons than to an Imperial torpedo, and as such there exists a major possibility that a photo torp will be intercepted by Imperial shields.
I admit we have seen ships both traveling at warp firing at each other using weapons like photon torpedoes. However, we have not seen large scale battles being fought at warp. There is a major difference between a Klingon BoP strafing the Enterprise at warp speeds and entire fleets engaging each other at warp. All major space battles we've observed in Star Trek have occured at sublight speeds. I dont believe I ever called it impossible to conduct battles at warp. I just believe the fact that the Federation chooses to drop to sublight to engage in pitched battle suggests that there is some kind of issue in conducting FTL only battles.
If you recall, I pointed out that in TNG:The Battle, the Enterprise (which has FTL sensors) did not use them to counter the PM by locking onto the Stargazer to track its movement. Instead, they had to reconfigure their sensors to track the compression of deep space gasses in order to track the Stargazer. This implies some major problems in using FTL sensors in battle, and thus ST FTL sensors are not necessarily combat effective.
Yes, I concede that IoM ships are not as manuverable as Fed ships. But why do you assume a Federation fleet can fly around at warp speeds firing torpedoes without question when we have never seen the Federation utilize this tactic? I agree with you. Picard and other Federation officers are not idiots, and are rather good tacticians. Why would they ignore a tactic that would allow them to reduce casualties? The obvious answer is that they don't use the tactic because it's simply not available to them. Federation ships have to drop out of warp, perhaps PM to point blank range, and do all the damage they can before they are overun by superior Imperial numbers and firepower.
Yes, I know they regularly miss small targets, and I'm pretty sure the miss rate will drop dramatically when faced with an Imperial battleship. However, your argument was that the Federation could precisely hit the engine block of an Imperial vessel which is a much smaller target. Aditionally, please remember that Khan caught Kirk ridiculously off guard. The Imperials would not be caught half as off guard as Kirk was.
I get the scifi concept of warp drive. The warp drive enables a vessel to violate the c speed limit by compressing space in front of the vessel and expanding it behind, essentially moving the universe around the ship instead of the ship itself. I have also conceded your point about the ability of Federation ships to fire out of their warp bubble, but I still hold fast that there must be something that makes doing so ineffective, as we have never seen the Federation preform such a manuver even when it would grant them a great advantage.
Nosferatu, please show me an example of fleet level FTL combat in Star Trek. I admit there has been ship on ship FTL combat, but never fleet level FTL combat. Until you can explain why that happens, and why the Federation would be able to use Fleet level FTL combat against the Imperium, we have to assume that a Federation fleet has no choice but to drop to sublight speeds to engage in a fleet battle.
Frazzled wrote:
Remember in BFG void shileds DON'T stop torpedoes or bombers or ramming. Torps would be nice and effective.
But they DO stop weapons battery fire, which includes kinetic projectiles.
My opinion (not backed up by any canon) is that void shields stop anything moving above a given speed. Since weapons batteries include lasers, plasma cannon, macro cannon, and missile launchers, and they're all apparently roughly the same, that suggests to me that all those projectiles are moving at the speed of light, or most of it.
Imperial torpedoes, by contrast, move close to the same speed that ships do. That suggests to me that things moving at lower speeds can slip through void shields.
If that's so (if anyone else can propose a different explanation, by all means do so), Federation torpedoes would be fairly ineffective against Imperial ships. Someone mentioned earlier that a Constitution's shields could absorb 90 photon torpedoes at once. Assuming those are the standard yield setting (25 isotons), that works out to 2250 isotons of energy being dispersed with no ill effects, and we know Imperial void shields are an order of magnitude stronger than that.
So all the Federation needs to do is make their torpedoes break before hitting the Shields of the Imperial ships, it seems a little crude for a solution in Star Trek,
but I'm sure they could add some nice tech-speak for the breaking procedure. Since the federation torpedoes are not reliant on kinetic energy, their destructive
potential would most likely not be impaired.
In the 6th star trek movie,
Spoiler:
they program a torpedo to home in on the exhaust of a cloaked klingon bird of prey that can fire while cloaked
making it break before the shields should be simpler, or at least not more difficult.
And the 90 photon torpedo figure is from Star Trek The Original Series, so it is based on older star trek shields, and older star trek torpedoes, just for clarification.
(I think I noted this in the original mention, at least that is what the kirk era mention was all about)
Accersitus: It's not as easy as it sounds. To slow down in space the photon torp would need some kind of retro firing thruster, and would have to begin this long enough before impact to pass through the shields. Sure, the Federation could do it eventually, but the problem I see is that in ST6, the only modification made was changing what the photon torp homed in on. CHanging the entire flight characteristics of the weapon is an entirely different matter.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:look were it M31 the imperium WOULD win hands down seeing as the emperor would simply make the mechanicus make some new tech as they were not so closed minded back then. the imperium would not resort to psychic dominance. but as it is not they cannot hope to win seeing as their tech has fallen so far
Of course they can hope to win. Nosferatu himself stated that should the Imperium begin the offensive, they would be devastating.
I personally believe that the battle would be a great deal closer than some people believe.
Nosferatu, I believe you made the comparison of a modern fighter jet versus a 13th century galleon? I think that's a massively exaggerated and unfair comparison. A far better one would perhaps be a modern small combat ship versus a World War II Aircraft Carrier.
Nitpicking, perhaps, but even so, you accused someone else (ChrisWWII, was it?) of overuse of absolutes, when you yourself seem to use exaggeration a little too much. Otherwise, you've put some interesting points across, so I guess I can live with it.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Warp doesnt actually give you any KE at all - you arent the thing moving, the universe is. You exist warp with the same relative velocity you left at.
Its how warp gets arround the c limitation, just not useful for this situation!
But wouldn't that mean that instead of the torpedo hitting the ship at Warp 9, the ship hits the Torpedo at Warp 9, thus still making a huge hole in the hull?
The propulsion system of the torpedoes is a warp sustainer engine. The engine coils of the torpedo grab and hold a hand-off field from the launcher tube's sequential field induction coils. A miniature matter/antimatter fuel cell adds power to the hand-off field. When launched in warp flight, torpedo will continue to travel at warp, when launched at sublight, torpedo will travel at a high sublight speed, but will not cross the warp threshold.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo
The warp field, also known as a subspace field, is a subspace displacement which warps space around the vessel, allowing it to "ride" on a distortion and travel faster than the speed of light.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_field I'm guessing a torpedo launched at warp has to drop out of warp to be able to hit an object not at warp speed (since space is warped around the vessel/torpedo),
and in warp speed to warp speed confrontations the torpedo most likely uses the targets warp field, thus being in the same spacial displacement.
So all the Federation needs to do is make their torpedoes break before hitting the Shields of the Imperial ships, it seems a little crude for a solution in Star Trek,
but I'm sure they could add some nice tech-speak for the breaking procedure. Since the federation torpedoes are not reliant on kinetic energy, their destructive
potential would most likely not be impaired.
In the 6th star trek movie,
Spoiler:
they program a torpedo to home in on the exhaust of a cloaked klingon bird of prey that can fire while cloaked
making it break before the shields should be simpler, or at least not more difficult.
And the 90 photon torpedo figure is from Star Trek The Original Series, so it is based on older star trek shields, and older star trek torpedoes, just for clarification.
(I think I noted this in the original mention, at least that is what the kirk era mention was all about)
Braking a torpedo in mid-flight would be, ah, difficult. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it certainly wouldn't be a quick and easy fix. At the very least, it would require building an entirely different torpedo, so the change wouldn't really kick in for quite a while, since lots of ships wouldn't go in for restocking for some time.
And I noted that the figures were old, but they're the only numbers for torpedo power relative to shield strength that I've seen. In the absence of newer figures, they're canon. Has the relative strength of torpedoes and shields changed noticeably in newer series?
ChrisWWII wrote:Accersitus: It's not as easy as it sounds. To slow down in space the photon torp would need some kind of retro firing thruster, and would have to begin this long enough before impact to pass through the shields. Sure, the Federation could do it eventually, but the problem I see is that in ST6, the only modification made was changing what the photon torp homed in on. CHanging the entire flight characteristics of the weapon is an entirely different matter.
They might need a modified torpedo, but brakes/reverse firing engines doesn't sound like the hardest upgrade in star trek.
Edit3: A simple way to do this, would be to fire the torpedo at warp (but at a slow speed relative to the starship), thus when the torpedo dropped out of warp to hit the target it would
move slowly enough to penetrate the shields.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
And I noted that the figures were old, but they're the only numbers for torpedo power relative to shield strength that I've seen. In the absence of newer figures, they're canon. Has the relative strength of torpedoes and shields changed noticeably in newer series?
The figures seem to have changed, since the more powerful torpedo mentioned earlier in the post was made (by the federation) after the episode that provided the figure of 90 photon torpedoes.
I'll have to re-watch the episode to see if they are mentioning federation torpedoes, or the photon torpedoes of some other race(in which case it could be the more powerful ones, but this is not likely))
Edit: The newer torpedoes are however noted as having a payload of only 1.5kg (maybe implying the older torpedoes have a greater payload), but the old torpedoes are also less efficient excluding them
from the possibility of being in the higher ranges of the possible isoton scale. ( 64 megatons to 690 gigatons )
This comparison is even harder to use since we know little of how federation shields developed in the same time.
Edit2: clarified that the old torpedoes are the less efficient.
Yeah, I didn't declare that it would be impossible to make some kind of breaking mechanism and install it into a torpedo. It'd just be harder than installing a different tracking system. Besides, in ST:6 they only needed one torpedo to kill the BoP. You'd need way more than one photon torp to do destroy an Imperial ship, so you can't really just modify one torpedo and have a kill shot. Like BeRzErKeR said, you'd need to redesign the torpedo, mass produce them, and then distribute them. Not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.
ChrisWWII wrote:Yeah, I didn't declare that it would be impossible to make some kind of breaking mechanism and install it into a torpedo. It'd just be harder than installing a different tracking system. Besides, in ST:6 they only needed one torpedo to kill the BoP. You'd need way more than one photon torp to do destroy an Imperial ship, so you can't really just modify one torpedo and have a kill shot. Like BeRzErKeR said, you'd need to redesign the torpedo, mass produce them, and then distribute them. Not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.
An Intrepid-class ship doesn't carry the material to fabricate casings for these torpedoes, and needs planetary raw materials to make new ones.
While it is noted that smaller starship classes (like Voyager ) need planetary resources to make new torpedoes, it is posible that the larger classes (galaxy-class / sovereign-class) carry
some of these materials, giving an armada the ability to make at least a limited number (as soon as they get the specifications from the crew that designed them), until
more can be produced at a planetary facility.
In addition, firing the torpedo at warp (but slow relative speed) would most likely only require a reprogramming of the targeting/launching, and not a redesign.
Although this may be hard to target.
Wait Doesn't the Imperium have a massive super weapon that they never use unless if they need it? Like the Exteriminus, not the Exterminatas But a different more powerful weapon that was banned. Not the life eater virus but something that could destroy entire systems. Ah what was it ah yes sending the Ship into self destruct which is basically a miniaturize dark hole except more deadly and nothing can escape it (reference Battle for Macarrage, Imperial Captail Ship self destructed destorying the entire tyranid fleet.). Then another weapon, which i can't remember.
I'm sorry but the Federation could not take on a Emperor Class Ship. These things can devastate Armada's Without even trying. The Imperium has faced races of humans that were pretty technologically sound. They were more advanced but they don't have one thing Astrates and Psychic Powers. The Imperium would win land combat hands down. But the Imperium has more ships, More firepower, Better shielding, and more Devasting counter manvoures. (horrible Spelling yes I know).
But the Federation could have a chance if they could somehow teleport into the engine room and place a charge in the core room. Which is next to impossible and only race that can are the Eldar.
Asherian Command wrote:
But the Federation could have a chance if they could somehow teleport into the engine room and place a charge in the core room. Which is next to impossible and only race that can are the Eldar.
The federation can teleport photon torpedoes and rig them to explode when the transport completes. So if they can transport past the imperial shields, the imperial ships have a problem.
Asherian Command wrote:
But the Federation could have a chance if they could somehow teleport into the engine room and place a charge in the core room. Which is next to impossible and only race that can are the Eldar.
The federation can teleport photon torpedoes and rig them to explode when the transport completes. So if they can transport past the imperial shields, the imperial ships have a problem.
The problem with that is that there has been demonstrated instances when Federation transporters are blocked by things as simple as high density metals, odd minerals and the like. Adamantium is no doubt incredibly dense, and the ability of the Federation to penetrate the armor with its transporters is doubtful. Not to mention, in order to transport, the ships would need to drop their shields, and as we have seen countless times in the series....once the shields are dropped Federation ships are incredibly vulnerable to physical attacks. One good hit on the nacelles and boom goes the ship.
Asherian Command wrote:
But the Federation could have a chance if they could somehow teleport into the engine room and place a charge in the core room. Which is next to impossible and only race that can are the Eldar.
The federation can teleport photon torpedoes and rig them to explode when the transport completes. So if they can transport past the imperial shields, the imperial ships have a problem.
Does the individual pseudo-science really matter? Even if the Federation could destroy 10,000 ships for every one they lost, they would still run out of doodz before the Imperium.
General: Federation shields block transporters (and only then if you dont know the frequency of the shields), you cannot assume the same about Void Shields.
ChrisWWII wrote:Right now I honestly don't have time to fully reply to your post, Nosferatu, but once I get home I will type up a full reply. However, if you look a couple posts above you, you'll see that I did respond to frazzled's argument.
#
Yes, your argument starts "this never happens", when shown it happens you then change your argument to "well, then X never happens"
At what point are you going to concede that your assumptions arent true?
ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, I read the link to Memory Alpha, and it specifically says there is no conversion from isoton to real world metrics. We don't know what an isoton IS. Is it 1000 tons? A million? What? I don't know, and I doubt you do either. If you do have a proper metric conversion from isotons to real world tons, please enlighten me. Right now, the only conversion we have is that a photon torp has a yield of 25 isotons, and the description of a photon warhead results in 64 megatons. However, other uses of isotons contradict this, so we have no idea what an isoton really is.
Yet you consistently mention the strength of adamantium as a reasno why the IoM ships would be ok - despite having *no* figures whatsoever. Tritanium has a known figure for hardness.
In addition 690gigatons seems to be the explosion size, not 64 megatons.
ChrisWWII wrote:I never said that warp travel puts you in another dimension,
Except you seem to think that objects in warp cannot interact with other objects- when that is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:I merely acknowledged that in the series it seems that ships do not interact with objects outside their warp bubble.
Steering. You also have the advantage that anything small enough to not disrupt the warp bubble is then "slowed" to your relative frame.
The theory of warp travel does not make you "phased" or any other such nonsense: you interact as normal. You would not pass through the ship. That argument is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:Any interactions we've observed occurring involve objects leaving the warp bubble, and entering real space. I was not trying to make a strawman, I was just basing off my previous argument, and I will concede that Federation torpedoes have the capability to drop out of warp speeds. However, I will not concede that the use of this tactic is a viable strategy. If it was, then we would see Federation ships flying about in warp, dropping torpedoes to hit enemy ships or installations and crippling them. This is definitely a course of action the Federation would pursue IF it could pursue it.
They use phasers to take down shileds, and torps to damage ships. That is the reason - fed shields are incredibly resistant to matter/antimatter reactions (as there is no matter to increase the damage) but not directed energy.
Again, you assume one situation makes another one comparable - when IoM vs ST is incredibly different.
It IS a viable strategy as I have demonstrated a logical, consistent series of reasons why - unless you can come up with a reason why it wouldnt work (other thaqn your ever changing demands on "proof", which changes every time proof is offfered) it remains a viable strategy.
In essence your argument is now: I dont think it should work, despite having no evidence for my position.
ChrisWWII wrote:I know, 'I believe' is not proof. I was explaining to frazzled that the fact that an Imperial torpedo passes through void shields does not equal a Federation photon torpedo passing through void shields as there are major canonical differences between the two weapons. I was also pointing out that Imperial weapons batteries include missile launchers, and those missiles are intercepted by void shields. The nature of a photon torpedo seems to tie more closely to those weapons than to an Imperial torpedo, and as such there exists a major possibility that a photo torp will be intercepted by Imperial shields.
There have been many reasons why this can be altered or stopped. In addition - so what if the first volley gets stopped? They will analyse the reason why (remember, they have sensors which can determine what happens in the centre of stars. Spotting what happens to an object a few hundred k km away isnt anywhere near as difficult) and adapt.
Its what the federation does.
And it does this while being entirely safe from counter attack.
ChrisWWII wrote:I admit we have seen ships both traveling at warp firing at each other using weapons like photon torpedoes.
So your absolute "it never happens" is incorrect? Who'd have thought!
ChrisWWII wrote: However, we have not seen large scale battles being fought at warp.
See above - your firing rate is limited, you cannot use phasers to strip shields, it is difficult to engage at warp vs warp, etc.
HOWEVR that is an *entirely* different situation to Warp vs Sublight. Entirely.
The two instances you have cited show that warp to sublight battle is not only possible but effective, and add to that the D7 strafing run attack - blows your argument against apart.
ChrisWWII wrote:There is a major difference between a Klingon BoP strafing the Enterprise at warp speeds and entire fleets engaging each other at warp. All major space battles we've observed in Star Trek have occured at sublight speeds. I dont believe I ever called it impossible to conduct battles at warp. I just believe the fact that the Federation chooses to drop to sublight to engage in pitched battle suggests that there is some kind of issue in conducting FTL only battles.
FtL vs FTL: agreed.
However, at what point, fighting IoM, would the battle be FTL?
You have yet to address this crucial point - your line of argument is irrelevant as it does not deal with the situation at hand
ChrisWWII wrote:If you recall, I pointed out that in TNG:The Battle, the Enterprise (which has FTL sensors) did not use them to counter the PM by locking onto the Stargazer to track its movement. Instead, they had to reconfigure their sensors to track the compression of deep space gasses in order to track the Stargazer. This implies some major problems in using FTL sensors in battle, and thus ST FTL sensors are not necessarily combat effective.
Irrelevan,t for the 9th time. Please state why a comparison of FTL vs FTL is important? Espeecially when the *defending ship* [i.e., the position the IoM ship would be in] has better sensors than the IoM have and still couldnt "win"?
Actually address it this time without making the bald statement about combat effectiveness - as your definition of combat effectiveness relates to an entirely different problem than the one being discussed.
A ship WITH FTL sensors managed to successfully use warp speed to attack a ship not moving at warp speed
1) The ST ship has FTL sensors and warp
2) The IoM ship does not have FTL sensors or warp drive.
1) is the stargazer, 2) is the Ferengi ship. The Ferengi ship DOES have warp, so its not entirely comparable - however the advantage the PM gives you isnt affected by this.
Answer this directly: 1) defeats 2) every time, due to PM and light speed limitations. Explain how this is not the case - note, at NO POINT can you discuss FTL vs FTL, as it is not relevant to this discussion.
The ONLY relevant line of argument you are allowed to go down is FTL vs c-speed sensors.
ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, I concede that IoM ships are not as manuverable as Fed ships. But why do you assume a Federation fleet can fly around at warp speeds firing torpedoes without question when we have never seen the Federation utilize this tactic?
As above, shields. And it HAS been used, so it CAN be used. Prior to the Dominiion attacks they didnt use minefields - so does that mean minefields arent possible ever? No, it means they adapted their tactics to the situaiton, and came up with some new technology to exploit a weakness.
ChrisWWII wrote:I agree with you. Picard and other Federation officers are not idiots, and are rather good tacticians. Why would they ignore a tactic that would allow them to reduce casualties? The obvious answer is that they don't use the tactic because it's simply not available to them. Federation ships have to drop out of warp, perhaps PM to point blank range, and do all the damage they can before they are overun by superior Imperial numbers and firepower.
See above. You are seeing the engagement, and not the battle. You are normally on a time limit measure in mninutes or hours, hence you have to attack as fast and as hard as possible. Not a time limit in days.
You also ignore precedent and canon by saying the tactic is not available - it IS available, but (and this is using occams razor correctly) it is not the BEST tactic at that time.
You assume nullity (not available) I assume not-best (available but suboptimal) - mine is simpler.
Your last sentence is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, I know they regularly miss small targets, and I'm pretty sure the miss rate will drop dramatically when faced with an Imperial battleship. However, your argument was that the Federation could precisely hit the engine block of an Imperial vessel which is a much smaller target. Aditionally, please remember that Khan caught Kirk ridiculously off guard. The Imperials would not be caught half as off guard as Kirk was.
The engine sections of IoM ships are often referred to as being 1/5th or more of the ship length. 1KM. Torpedoes can be fired to hit targets on ships that are smaller than half the engine size in toto, and then aimed to hit parts of the ship even smaller than that.
And whther he caught Kirk "of guard" is irrelevant - you were asking for proof of how accurate the torpedoes could be. I give you definitive proof of it, and you then dismiss it as "well kirk was of guard"
Irrelevant.
Please now find some facts to backl up your opinion that they could not hit a 1km section of a ship. To do this you would have to show that torpedoes miss every trek ship, every time, as every trek ship (not including delta quadrant stuff, for now) is less than 1KM long.
ChrisWWII wrote:I get the scifi concept of warp drive. The warp drive enables a vessel to violate the c speed limit by compressing space in front of the vessel and expanding it behind, essentially moving the universe around the ship instead of the ship itself. I have also conceded your point about the ability of Federation ships to fire out of their warp bubble, but I still hold fast that there must be something that makes doing so ineffective, as we have never seen the Federation preform such a manuver even when it would grant them a great advantage.
So your argument boils dow n to: I dont like it so it cant work?
That is all i am getting out of this. You have been shown capability, tactical advantage, and motive. Your response is "but it cant work!!"
ChrisWWII wrote:Nosferatu, please show me an example of fleet level FTL combat in Star Trek. I admit there has been ship on ship FTL combat, but never fleet level FTL combat. Until you can explain why that happens, and why the Federation would be able to use Fleet level FTL combat against the Imperium, we have to assume that a Federation fleet has no choice but to drop to sublight speeds to engage in a fleet battle.
No you cannot assume that. You are trying to compare apples to a small country cottage.
FTL vs FTL is not the situation here - the siutuation here is FTL vs non-FTL, against a target you cannot hurt with phasers (assuming the energy levels of IoM ships are correct, and that pahsers dont simply ignore void shields, which is possible) but CAN hurt with pho-/quan-torps. A target that is so massive and so lumbering that it cannot effectively change its relative position faster than you can zip round it. Using a manouver that is KNOWN TO WORK.
Got it now?
The argument is not FTL vs FTL: your attempts to drag it that direction are not going to work.
Wow, you people are really getting caught up with this. I browsed the last 5 pages or so, and it's the same thing over and over. "FTL FTW!" "Nuh uh!" "Yeah huh!" "Nuh uh!" "Yeah huh!" "My dad could beat up your dad!" "My mom could beat up yours!"
Anyway, for what it's worth, I just saw an '87 episode that mentioned this Picard Maneuver, and such a short jump didn't render the Stargazer invisible, but rather made it appear to be in two places at the same time. Now with crappy Star Trek ships that can only target one thing at a time this was an issue, as the enemy Ferengi (sp?) ship fired on the wrong one, but again, IoM has thousands and thousands of ships for every one of the Federation's. They could literally flood the entire sector with hot death.
If for the purpose of this exercise we're assuming every Federation captain involved has a Kirk/Picard/Enterprise-level captains and crews, then the IoM is throwing all of its resources into the fight, and pitting their Fleet Creed-equivalents and other "tactical geniuses" against the Federation.
There is no doubt that the Federation is smarter, and at least has better sensor technology, but IoM has bigger guns, bigger shields and an incalculable number advantage. It'd be like the fight between Riddick and the Lord Marshal. The Lord Marshal flitting around and getting in good hits on Riddick, until finally he gets caught between a rock and a hard place, and goes squish.
Alright, I didn't see that point, but even then.....why don't we see this in large scale fleet battles? It seems to me if one fleet can strafe another with impunity the casualty conscience UFP would do this instead of fighting costly battles like they've been forced to. There must be some kind of limitation that makes the employment of warp strafing ineffective in large scale fleet battles, otherwise we would see it done much more often.
Because its TV. Its all about the cool visuals.
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ChrisWWII wrote:Accersitus: It's not as easy as it sounds. To slow down in space the photon torp would need some kind of retro firing thruster, and would have to begin this long enough before impact to pass through the shields. Sure, the Federation could do it eventually, but the problem I see is that in ST6, the only modification made was changing what the photon torp homed in on. CHanging the entire flight characteristics of the weapon is an entirely different matter.
Actually his theory is a pretty good one, and kind of floats with Dune and Star Wars shields. fast moving ordance gets blocked, slower moving flows through. I'd proffer thats a fair point on the UFP torpedoes. They'd have to take down the void shields.
Then again if the orks and Tau can take down void shields, thats not exactly difficult
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Necroman wrote:
Accersitus wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
But the Federation could have a chance if they could somehow teleport into the engine room and place a charge in the core room. Which is next to impossible and only race that can are the Eldar.
The federation can teleport photon torpedoes and rig them to explode when the transport completes. So if they can transport past the imperial shields, the imperial ships have a problem.
Shields block transporters.
Yes ST shields block transporters. I'd proffer the same for void shields. (and vice versa you can't teleport onto a shielded ship in BFGIIRC).
nosferatu1001 wrote:General: Federation shields block transporters (and only then if you dont know the frequency of the shields), you cannot assume the same about Void Shields.
ChrisWWII wrote:Right now I honestly don't have time to fully reply to your post, Nosferatu, but once I get home I will type up a full reply. However, if you look a couple posts above you, you'll see that I did respond to frazzled's argument.
#
Yes, your argument starts "this never happens", when shown it happens you then change your argument to "well, then X never happens"
At what point are you going to concede that your assumptions arent true?
ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, I read the link to Memory Alpha, and it specifically says there is no conversion from isoton to real world metrics. We don't know what an isoton IS. Is it 1000 tons? A million? What? I don't know, and I doubt you do either. If you do have a proper metric conversion from isotons to real world tons, please enlighten me. Right now, the only conversion we have is that a photon torp has a yield of 25 isotons, and the description of a photon warhead results in 64 megatons. However, other uses of isotons contradict this, so we have no idea what an isoton really is.
Yet you consistently mention the strength of adamantium as a reasno why the IoM ships would be ok - despite having *no* figures whatsoever. Tritanium has a known figure for hardness.
In addition 690gigatons seems to be the explosion size, not 64 megatons.
ChrisWWII wrote:I never said that warp travel puts you in another dimension,
Except you seem to think that objects in warp cannot interact with other objects- when that is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:I merely acknowledged that in the series it seems that ships do not interact with objects outside their warp bubble.
Steering. You also have the advantage that anything small enough to not disrupt the warp bubble is then "slowed" to your relative frame.
The theory of warp travel does not make you "phased" or any other such nonsense: you interact as normal. You would not pass through the ship. That argument is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:Any interactions we've observed occurring involve objects leaving the warp bubble, and entering real space. I was not trying to make a strawman, I was just basing off my previous argument, and I will concede that Federation torpedoes have the capability to drop out of warp speeds. However, I will not concede that the use of this tactic is a viable strategy. If it was, then we would see Federation ships flying about in warp, dropping torpedoes to hit enemy ships or installations and crippling them. This is definitely a course of action the Federation would pursue IF it could pursue it.
They use phasers to take down shileds, and torps to damage ships. That is the reason - fed shields are incredibly resistant to matter/antimatter reactions (as there is no matter to increase the damage) but not directed energy.
Again, you assume one situation makes another one comparable - when IoM vs ST is incredibly different.
It IS a viable strategy as I have demonstrated a logical, consistent series of reasons why - unless you can come up with a reason why it wouldnt work (other thaqn your ever changing demands on "proof", which changes every time proof is offfered) it remains a viable strategy.
In essence your argument is now: I dont think it should work, despite having no evidence for my position.
ChrisWWII wrote:I know, 'I believe' is not proof. I was explaining to frazzled that the fact that an Imperial torpedo passes through void shields does not equal a Federation photon torpedo passing through void shields as there are major canonical differences between the two weapons. I was also pointing out that Imperial weapons batteries include missile launchers, and those missiles are intercepted by void shields. The nature of a photon torpedo seems to tie more closely to those weapons than to an Imperial torpedo, and as such there exists a major possibility that a photo torp will be intercepted by Imperial shields.
There have been many reasons why this can be altered or stopped. In addition - so what if the first volley gets stopped? They will analyse the reason why (remember, they have sensors which can determine what happens in the centre of stars. Spotting what happens to an object a few hundred k km away isnt anywhere near as difficult) and adapt.
Its what the federation does.
And it does this while being entirely safe from counter attack.
ChrisWWII wrote:I admit we have seen ships both traveling at warp firing at each other using weapons like photon torpedoes.
So your absolute "it never happens" is incorrect? Who'd have thought!
ChrisWWII wrote: However, we have not seen large scale battles being fought at warp.
See above - your firing rate is limited, you cannot use phasers to strip shields, it is difficult to engage at warp vs warp, etc.
HOWEVR that is an *entirely* different situation to Warp vs Sublight. Entirely.
The two instances you have cited show that warp to sublight battle is not only possible but effective, and add to that the D7 strafing run attack - blows your argument against apart.
ChrisWWII wrote:There is a major difference between a Klingon BoP strafing the Enterprise at warp speeds and entire fleets engaging each other at warp. All major space battles we've observed in Star Trek have occured at sublight speeds. I dont believe I ever called it impossible to conduct battles at warp. I just believe the fact that the Federation chooses to drop to sublight to engage in pitched battle suggests that there is some kind of issue in conducting FTL only battles.
FtL vs FTL: agreed.
However, at what point, fighting IoM, would the battle be FTL?
You have yet to address this crucial point - your line of argument is irrelevant as it does not deal with the situation at hand
ChrisWWII wrote:If you recall, I pointed out that in TNG:The Battle, the Enterprise (which has FTL sensors) did not use them to counter the PM by locking onto the Stargazer to track its movement. Instead, they had to reconfigure their sensors to track the compression of deep space gasses in order to track the Stargazer. This implies some major problems in using FTL sensors in battle, and thus ST FTL sensors are not necessarily combat effective.
Irrelevan,t for the 9th time. Please state why a comparison of FTL vs FTL is important? Espeecially when the *defending ship* [i.e., the position the IoM ship would be in] has better sensors than the IoM have and still couldnt "win"?
Actually address it this time without making the bald statement about combat effectiveness - as your definition of combat effectiveness relates to an entirely different problem than the one being discussed.
A ship WITH FTL sensors managed to successfully use warp speed to attack a ship not moving at warp speed
1) The ST ship has FTL sensors and warp
2) The IoM ship does not have FTL sensors or warp drive.
1) is the stargazer, 2) is the Ferengi ship. The Ferengi ship DOES have warp, so its not entirely comparable - however the advantage the PM gives you isnt affected by this.
Answer this directly: 1) defeats 2) every time, due to PM and light speed limitations. Explain how this is not the case - note, at NO POINT can you discuss FTL vs FTL, as it is not relevant to this discussion.
The ONLY relevant line of argument you are allowed to go down is FTL vs c-speed sensors.
ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, I concede that IoM ships are not as manuverable as Fed ships. But why do you assume a Federation fleet can fly around at warp speeds firing torpedoes without question when we have never seen the Federation utilize this tactic?
As above, shields. And it HAS been used, so it CAN be used. Prior to the Dominiion attacks they didnt use minefields - so does that mean minefields arent possible ever? No, it means they adapted their tactics to the situaiton, and came up with some new technology to exploit a weakness.
ChrisWWII wrote:I agree with you. Picard and other Federation officers are not idiots, and are rather good tacticians. Why would they ignore a tactic that would allow them to reduce casualties? The obvious answer is that they don't use the tactic because it's simply not available to them. Federation ships have to drop out of warp, perhaps PM to point blank range, and do all the damage they can before they are overun by superior Imperial numbers and firepower.
See above. You are seeing the engagement, and not the battle. You are normally on a time limit measure in mninutes or hours, hence you have to attack as fast and as hard as possible. Not a time limit in days.
You also ignore precedent and canon by saying the tactic is not available - it IS available, but (and this is using occams razor correctly) it is not the BEST tactic at that time.
You assume nullity (not available) I assume not-best (available but suboptimal) - mine is simpler.
Your last sentence is false.
ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, I know they regularly miss small targets, and I'm pretty sure the miss rate will drop dramatically when faced with an Imperial battleship. However, your argument was that the Federation could precisely hit the engine block of an Imperial vessel which is a much smaller target. Aditionally, please remember that Khan caught Kirk ridiculously off guard. The Imperials would not be caught half as off guard as Kirk was.
The engine sections of IoM ships are often referred to as being 1/5th or more of the ship length. 1KM. Torpedoes can be fired to hit targets on ships that are smaller than half the engine size in toto, and then aimed to hit parts of the ship even smaller than that.
And whther he caught Kirk "of guard" is irrelevant - you were asking for proof of how accurate the torpedoes could be. I give you definitive proof of it, and you then dismiss it as "well kirk was of guard"
Irrelevant.
Please now find some facts to backl up your opinion that they could not hit a 1km section of a ship. To do this you would have to show that torpedoes miss every trek ship, every time, as every trek ship (not including delta quadrant stuff, for now) is less than 1KM long.
ChrisWWII wrote:I get the scifi concept of warp drive. The warp drive enables a vessel to violate the c speed limit by compressing space in front of the vessel and expanding it behind, essentially moving the universe around the ship instead of the ship itself. I have also conceded your point about the ability of Federation ships to fire out of their warp bubble, but I still hold fast that there must be something that makes doing so ineffective, as we have never seen the Federation preform such a manuver even when it would grant them a great advantage.
So your argument boils dow n to: I dont like it so it cant work?
That is all i am getting out of this. You have been shown capability, tactical advantage, and motive. Your response is "but it cant work!!"
ChrisWWII wrote:Nosferatu, please show me an example of fleet level FTL combat in Star Trek. I admit there has been ship on ship FTL combat, but never fleet level FTL combat. Until you can explain why that happens, and why the Federation would be able to use Fleet level FTL combat against the Imperium, we have to assume that a Federation fleet has no choice but to drop to sublight speeds to engage in a fleet battle.
No you cannot assume that. You are trying to compare apples to a small country cottage.
FTL vs FTL is not the situation here - the siutuation here is FTL vs non-FTL, against a target you cannot hurt with phasers (assuming the energy levels of IoM ships are correct, and that pahsers dont simply ignore void shields, which is possible) but CAN hurt with pho-/quan-torps. A target that is so massive and so lumbering that it cannot effectively change its relative position faster than you can zip round it. Using a manouver that is KNOWN TO WORK.
Got it now?
The argument is not FTL vs FTL: your attempts to drag it that direction are not going to work.
You know, it was kinda fun before you got all snarky. Seriously, all ChrisWWII is trying to do is debate your points. As far as I have read, he has not done so in an aggressive manner, so I don't see what you're getting so worked up about.
My final point before I begin debating about the Star Wars thread is that who wins will be highly dependant on whose perspective we are viewing the war from. If it's being handled by the writers of Star Trek, OF COURSE the federation will win; they're the main characters, and besides, they'll just come up with some unreasonably complex solution to their problems and save the day. If it's being handled by GW, on the other hand, then the almighty powers of numbers and Grimdark overwhelm the innocent, naive Feds before they can say "What's a Daemon?"
As you can see, it's all down to perspective.
Sorry the post wasn't more technical, but to be honest I don't know all that much about Trek capabilities, so there was always a limit to what I could contest.
Chris keeps redefining "proof", however...which is the problem.
In a neutral context the ST universe always comes up with something to make them win - not so much the Imperium. In fact while the UFP shows progression (peace with klingons, etc) the IoM is entirely about regression - every planet it loses to chaos is a dead planet, for example.
And IoM has yet to overwhelm the Tau - the IoM just doesnt seem to be able to react quickly enough to new threats to simply crush them with numbers.
Well, these conversations inevitably turn ugly, as some people are just waaay too invested in their fantasy world of choice.
But speaking of technology, why are we assuming the Federation is lightyears beyond the Imperium? In understanding/scientific technique, certainly, but if we consider the timelines, a lot of the technology used by the Imperium had literally tens of thousands of years of advancement. From the books, a lot of the Dark Age technology (like the Castigator, for example, who makes the Borg look like fluffy bunnies) is incredibly advanced.
And yes, in the last 10,000 years or so, the Imperium is not at that level of technical understanding, although I think the depth of their ignorance is vastly overstated. From Rogue Trader we can see that some incredibly advanced technology is pretty commonplace on the more advanced planets. And all the ritual and pomp may look silly, but it's simply ritualized maintenance that has kept these machines working for millennia (think Japanese tea ceremony, all you really need for tea is to throw some water in a pot and boil it, but they add like 400 steps to the process for the funsies of it).
Then there's the beauty of the STC, in that the most advanced technology can be operated and maintained by the most backward people. It's the same approach taken by the AK-47, or perhaps Apple (especially in the apparently mandated worship and reverence of Steve Jobs, er I mean Omnissiah ) , in that all these technologies, no matter how advanced, are essentially an appliance: you just turn it on, and it works. You don't need to know how an AK-47 is constructed and functions internally to learn in 10 minutes to assemble one and blow someone's face off.
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akira5665 wrote:Gag me with a spoon...
Your'e kidding right? 12 Pages of this??
Kirk is on the Federations side. 'Nuff said
End of discussion. No more. lol /jk
Fair enough. Creed outflanks a Titan into Kirk's pants. "Uh...oh!"
Omegus - the Federation has significant advances (a reliable FTL travel system being one of them) compared to the imperium and, more importantly they *know how stuff works*
The Mechanicus has a vast amount of techology it has no clue how works - and they dont WANT to know the "how" for a lot, as that can be seen as blasphemous.
The STCs are there to create copies of machines, as they dontknow how to build them any longer.
ChrisWWII wrote:2. I'm currently trying to find the analysis done on stardestroyer.net that supports that assumption, and once I find it I will happily link it to you. But assuming your analysis of one mine ever 1/4 of a km is correct, we see that they deployed only one layer of mines, so there would be no further mines to exploit damage to the armor done by the first pass. Not to mention, the Imperial ships wouldn't be backing through the minefield. They'd be charging through with their heavily armored prows, which are described as being hundreds of meters thick. Even a single mine detonation would not penetrate this armor.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You are basing your arguements on "because it wasn't done, it can't be done" and the "the way it was done can't be modified", where as I'm contending that there is no solid proof that there is something stopping them from reusing this inovation, nor is there any reason the technology can't be modified by combining it with other technology in canon other than the writers did not wish to pursue that path (as it makes for boring TV) or didn't see it. It's not like I'm using some BS Trek solution like rerouting the secondary EPS through the main deflector to initiate an inverse nadion pulse which would overload the IoM's void shields. The UFP is all about thinking outside the box and coming up with solutions that combine existing technology to solve their problems, as such, IMO adapting an existing technology for wider use doesn't seem that huge a stretch to me.
I think you are hanging too much on the superdurable hull argument. Since the resistive properties of Adamantium hull is not quantified, the "invincible armour" argument it can't be refutted or proven. To argue against it is a pointless endeavour.
keezus: I know you're not using USS Make Sh*t Up style arguments. But to both you and frazzled I'd like to say that I think were analyzing ST from different directions.I'm looking at it with a suspension of disbelief mindset, viewing the episodes as if they were historical records or something. in that case, there are no writers reducing capability for better tv. the Feds have what they have.
now, keezus. The reasons I'm naysaying ur argument is that there are lots of times when such a minefield would be useful., but the Feds don't use it in those situations. That implies some kind of off screen reason why they don't use the minefield. It'd be like you were an alien watching a tv show about ww2. Towards the end, the Germans start using all these super weapons, but! But just because we saw them launch those v2s and other tjings, doesn't mean they can do it on a much much larger scale. Logistical reasons among others prevent that, but you as a viewer wouldn't see that.ion if that metaphor explains my position, but Ill gladly make another one if you'd like.
Nosferatu: sorry, but I only had a short time this morning b4 I left for the day. I'll be responding Shortly
It's too bad the humans in star trek are such pussies when it comes to certain technologies.
If they had been more aggressive, we might have had the Star Trek augment vs Imperial Space marine
argument instead of trying to compare different energy weapons, teleportation, FTL drives, sensors, shields.....
The star trek augmented humans were developed in the late 20th century (superior humans, rather large
starships, and a world war in 1993 )
These Augments were five times stronger than the average person, their lung efficiency was fifty percent better than normal, their heart muscles were twice as strong, they possessed remarkable agility, and their intelligence was double that of a normal Human.
Would be interesting to see what they could have done with another 400 years of research on the subject.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Omegus - the Federation has significant advances (a reliable FTL travel system being one of them) compared to the imperium and, more importantly they *know how stuff works*
Again with the FTL stuff.
A few hundred years of advancement from present time < 20+ thousand years of advancement from present time. If we were talking about the height of the Golden/Dark Age of Technology, the Federation wouldn't last a nanosecond. While by comparison the current Imperium is but a pale shadow, a good bit of that technology still persists and a lot of it is still capable of being reproduced.
The Mechanicus has a vast amount of techology it has no clue how works - and they dont WANT to know the "how" for a lot, as that can be seen as blasphemous.
They are far more aware then you give them credit for, if you've ever read any Dan Abnett book or even the original Rogue Trader book. They venerate the machines, but you bet they take them apart and figure out what everything does as best they can. The higher ranks of the Adeptus, as they slowly become more machine than man, certainly have quite a bit of insight into how all their various implants and modifications and yes, INVENTIONS, work (although usually they are not so much inventions, as a modification of an existing idea that spends a few hundred years in a committee before being approved or have the innovator executed in some horrific manner).
The STCs are there to create copies of machines, as they dontknow how to build them any longer.
Obviously they know how to build them, because they are building (and repairing) stuff all the time and even occasionally introduce variations on the standard template. In any case, the STC renders their level of understanding of the inner workings of the technology utterly moot. That's the whole point of the STC. The stuff works, and they know enough to operate, replicate and service them. You don't need to know how to construct a vortex missile when all you have to do is point it at the enemy and press the button that says "make bad man go away".
And then there is this crucial element:
Accersitus wrote:the humans in star trek are such pussies
SO in other words in less than 200 years from now they have reliable FTL travel (something the imperium still hasnt got), matter replication technology (ditto), reliable AM reactors, interia supression, and FTL radio.
I have reaad almost every dan abnett book, and probably own about half his output. I love the guy. However ify ou DO read them you will gain the opposite impression - they do not understand the technology, they venerate it.
and you do not need to understand how something works in order to repair it with a modular replacement. thats kind of the point. Evidence of repair /= evidence of understanding.
Also, "taking them apart" is definite tech heresy - as you destroy the machine spirit. Certainly you anger it.
And your point neatly coincides with mine: they know how to, slowly an d carefully, slightly *vary* their technology.
ST knows how to take leaps into the unknown, seemingly as a matter of course. Hell, a school kid created a sentient race of nanoscale organisms, for a science project!
[ok yes, he was Wes, who as it turns out is the next evolution of humans. or something. But still ]
From "Slaves to Darkness": According to [the Mechanicus] teachings, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. ... A man's worth is only the sum of his knowledge - his body is simply an organic machine capable of preserving intellect. In the Cult's tenets, life itself is of no intrinsic value."
Certainly doesn't sound like they are just a bunch of idiots putting pegs in holes from instructions. How else would they be able to consistently, reliably, and individually vary their various implants, create cybernetic organisms, etc.? The Imperium has something BETTER than FTL travel (in that it is much faster). It can be risky if the Navigator dies or Geller fields fail, but warp speed is just as risky if one of the engines suddenly blows up or some aliens start fething with them in transit (random godlike aliens == predations of daemons for the sake of argument). As far as Abnett, in the Eisenhorn AND Grey Knight books there were several examples of Tech priests who were very knowledgeable AND quite innovative (and no, I'm not talking about the flesh-obsessed Dark ones).
Wesley is bs, and I think anyone who likes Star Trek can confess to that. Oh, and "Simpsons did it". Most of Star Trek's "leaps into unknown" are also random events they don't really understand, whether by barreling into some freak space storm, or stumbling across a wormhole, or being messed around with Q or some other godlike being, or Wesley having a wet dream while snoozing on an engineering console, etc.
And again, the level of their understanding of the technology is an academic point and irrelevant. If you have a device that can fold time and space and create a rift that sucks everything into a literal hell, and you can operate it, you don't really need to know the full details of how and why it works. You don't need to be a gunsmith to excise someone's chest cavity with a hollow-point.
Now, referring to the debate of the last few pages, I agree with you that Star Trek ships can indeed fight at warp speed. While the Picard maneuver doesn't really apply as it is more sublight chicanery, every series with only TNG being somewhat of an exception gave us plenty of examples of warp speed battles. In the original series, they did that stuff all the time, and only in Wrath of Khan was there a serious skirmish at sublight speed because he managed to get right up in their grill. TNG didn't have many examples, but that was I think mostly budget issues and there was always some contrivance to get the baddies nose to nose with Picard 'n friends. The producers have stated any number of times in various interviews and conventions that the original concept of combat at incredible speeds and incredible distances was abandoned because close-rank ship-to-ship battles were "moar exciting for the fans".
And still we have examples from TNG where they used torpedoes at warp speed; I can think of "Encounter at Farpoint", "New Ground", and "Best of Both Worlds". In Voyager, they used both torpedoes and phasers in "Message in a Bottle", "Non Sequitur", "Flashback" and a whole other bunch of episodes I'm failing to recall.
However, in all these cases they were fighting ships that were matching their speed at warp speed. Only in the original series are there a few examples of combat between ships moving at different warp speeds, and then that concept was abandoned for the other series. So it's a tough call whether the relativistic bubble would interfere with firing at something outside of said bubble.
Regardless, even assuming the Trek ships could perform warp speed strafing runs with impunity, there are simply not enough ships and their weapons are not powerful enough to destroy the enormous Imperial ships fast enough. If the Imperials couldn't track the ships (also questionable, psykers may be able to do it), they would simply target the immovable Earth, and the Federation fleet would be like a swarm of gnats trying to stop a stampede of dinosaurs. They simply would not be able to destroy the advancing armada fast enough to prevent even just one getting through the blockade, and unleashing exterminatus or even a drop pod assault. Star Trek ground capabilities are so pathetic, a single Space Marine squad could probably single-handedly annihilate all life on the planet given time (especially if they are Brothers of the Snake marines, then it would probably only take one).
Thats what I would say is correct. I concur with your ideas. But I still think one squad could not handle it. Probably an entire company. Not 5 guys. Unless they were Elites of the 1st Company. Because laspistols have been known to kill Marines!
Well, you can't really apply game stats to this. Any armor that has a 33% failure rate regardless of the penetrative ability of the weapon firing at it is a pretty useless hunk of junk.
But yes, I suppose I was being somewhat facetious and certainly a bit hyperbolic. Then again, a Marine is said to be equivalent to a 1000 fighting men? And Romulans (I think) fully expected to be able to conquer Vulkan with 5000 troops. So there you go. And if you've ever read Brothers of the Snake, you too would think it a distinct possibility.
heres just some information that might help with the debate:
just some info on the iom ship capabilities:
Sensors and sublight speeds:
The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"
As you can see the Iom fleet parked in orbit on arround Hereden detects in real time a chas fleet arriving some 9 aus in distance away thats roughly 74.85 light minutes away or 1,346,380,836.219 km away this again is a real times sensor feed.
Beyond which we know that 40k space battles take place across hundreds of thousnads of Km to a million Km, again they receive live real time sensors information in regards to theses again this range easily make thier sensors ranghing from light seconds to light minuts in range.
So to answer the question yes Iom vessels have ftl sensors and wqill be capable of detecting startrek vessels traveling at pretty much any speed they travel. so no No Picard manuever. * though we will relate to that in a moment*
JUst to touch on the combat ranges as well trek combat ranges normally are in the 10k Km with maximum photon torp and phaser ranges as quoting out as 40k. 40k space combat considers 10k kms as point blank range where teleports normally occur boarding parties etc happen. normal weapons ranges is 60 - 80k kms with weapons extending out to 150k kms and 300k km with fighters, bombers and torps having even further ranges.
As far as the supposed warp combat speed fo trek the only time wee see any 24th century trek battle with something faster then impluse speeds is the famous picard manuever. Every other combat we see is at impulse speeds. Impulse is again just factors of true light speed from the various trek cannon.
nOw on to 40k combats speeds:
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.
FRom here we see a fleet go from an orbit to engage the chaos fleet 9 AU's away. FRom text we see the ships launching fighters 42 minutes later.
The Saint Omnibus page 889
*Just after emergence* The fighter screen broke around him, spreading wide and zipping like tiny silver reef fish along the lengths of the ponderous new arrivals *Remember, fighters point of view, and transport ships*
The Saint Omnibus page 893
There was nothing to see. The starfield at this speed was a striated blur and the warp perturbation that preceded a re-entry was visible only on the instruments.
The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.
The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor
*note thes e source quotes provides by Inquisitor Ryan at spacebattles.com
As you can see the ships go from a dead orbit and accelerate to thier attack speed which again is 3/4 the speed of light. we Know that the IOm vessels intercepted the chaos fleet some 93 minutes later which again support combat speed of 3/4 the speed of light. again given the 9 au distance this supports the close to light speed capabilties of the IOm vessels. again these speeds would easily be the equal to the TRek impulse speeds.
As you can see there will be no trek ships zipping arround damaging iom vessels to slow and ponderious to catch them. both trek and Iom vessels will be traveling at relative speeds to each other.
As far as FTL speeds anyone that things trek is fast is just refusing to admit the obvious. IOm ships can travel as speeds in the 540k warp that make trek speeds look like they are crawling. we know from VOY that it would have taken the ship and normal top fed speed 75 years to return to earth. A 40k vessel can travel this distance in a few months on average the far end of the delta quad. without the worm hole would have taken again 70 some od light years per TNG and DS9. Again IOM vessels would travel this in months. Again 40k ftl is far superior to trek in all but possibly short jaunts.
As far as scale: the IOm has over a million worlds spread out over the galaxy normally their is approximatly 50 - 75 ships per 200 or so planets as standard with hundreds of crusading fleets. This gives the IOM well over 250,000 to 375,000 ships not counting Adeptus Asteres vessels, mechnicius vessel arebitors, sob and inquisiton ships and crusade fleets.
Remember their is only 150 planets in the federation and 100s colony planets. with a few thousand naval vessels. the federation is 8000 ly across
Remember the numbers above the iom can attack every planet that the feds have with a fleet of 100 vessels amd still have over half of their fleet held in reserve. they could due this as a simultanious attack all within a days time span.
as for Populations and production capabilities the iom has 32,000 hive world alone that each have populations of hundreds of billions. With and Undefined number of forger world and shipyards. The vast majority of world are considered modern world with population of 10 billion plus with what would be considered tech level above what you see in your average trek planet.
As for productions capabilities we have a feral world *again a stone age world* produce enough materials in a 10 year span to creeate a lunar class cruiser.
the Iom does have the tech to build new ships, tanks, guns, titans etc.
Now we come to the teleportation tech TRek teleports have issues teleporting through dense material and has never been able to teleport through trek shields.
IOM shields block necron teleportation which is simular to trek teleportation but more reliable. As well as extradimensions teleportation in the form of the geller fields. IOM teleportation travels through the warp and would not be stops by trek shields as they have no means to protect them selves from extra dimensional teleportation.
And finally we have fire power:
TRek weapons are rate from their own manual sources as being any where from 30 - 70 megatons per torps and phasers. We know that the galaxy class ship normally can only take a few barrages of such weapons before they fail, rough the equivalent of a few hundred megatons. Once the shield fail trek weapons usually destroy the target ship with one or 2 more weapon volleys. with roughly a 40k km max range and normal ranges of 10k km.
IOm weapons have do tripple digit gigton damage to double digit teraton level damage with space hulk supplying us with a solid figure of torpedo power being 610 gtons in damage. Again these weapons commenly range out to 60k - 80kn km on average with 10k being point blank range. 40k shields can absorb this firepower level of tripple digit gton and low level tton before they fail. After that the IOM vessel then have dozens of M thick Admantite armor which is actually normally able to absorb more damage then their shields are. We have quotes of those same 610 gtpn torps exploding inside crusiers and the cruisers still beng able to continue combat. More dominating is that weapon barrages are said to fill 10ks worth of space with a variety of fire power in attempts to damage opposing vessels causing huge field 10s of thousands of km in diameter with tripple digit gton damage. Weapons like the Nova cannon and bombarment cannons fire shells that move at close to the speed of light. The are the size of 50 m buildings thats when calced does pton level damage at point of impact and has a radius of affect the size of small moons that causes tton level damage.
The Picard manuever at best will damage the paint job of the IOm vessel.
The feds are in a no win situation they are out numbered out gunned to such a degree that its not funny. here is a picture that is famous when ever you have 40k v trek debates:
2)Picard lures Borg into battle with IoM. Federation wins.
3)Kirk hacks and reprograms the Machine Spirit because he doesn't beliece in no-win scenarios. Federation wins.
Why does Federation always win? Because Roddenberry and co are better writers than GW could ever hope to get. Abnett is fine, but he is no Roddenberry.
1. Imperium summons Chaos. Imperium wins.
2. Borg would get owned. Try to adapt to a boltgun round, yeah, I'd like to see that.
3. Kirk gets distracted by daemonette boobies.
And Roddenberry and co sucks. I point thee to Wesley Crusher, 2/3rds of Voyager, and the entirety of DS9.
Crusher was a concession to the network, DS 9 wasn't soley Roddenberry and had to many people trying to push the story in too many directions, Voyager wasn't Roddenberry's, and neither was Enterprise.
I reply to your three.
Kirk deploys the genesis device. Federation wins.
Kirk comes up with new tactic that will take a year to work, The IoM waits for orders that will take one hundred years to get there. Federation wins
Borg has personal body shields, Bolters be come useless after first four shots. Federation sits back and watches until it is time to deploy the nano-viruses. Federation wins.
Now I was nice about Abnett and you smear the name of Roddenberry. (Gloves off)Yeah I love all those movies based off of Abnetts work...Oh wait there aren't any.
I do remember something that looked like it was made with a handycam and styrofoam armour though.
xiophen: I humbly thank you for your awesome paper right there. Seriously. it's awesome. Hehehe....I need to hurry up with the saint then.....haven't finished it yet, but your quotes make me hopeful for whats coming.
Focusedfire: I'm sorry to say, but I hate gene Roddenberry. I love trek, but I hate gene's happy lil communist vision of the fed. =P seriously, the fed makes the tau look capitalist!
I hate the politically correct thing that next generation became. Its PC, super socialist theme, and complete lack of anything resembling testosterone outside of Ryker annoys the heck out of me. I'll still watch it for some of the Q episodes and the Klingon Civil War. Both were good stories that didn't paint the screen socialist pink. Outside of those I'll watch Kirk, new or old.
I like the original the best of the series and I like the Wrath of Khan best of the old stuff. The New Trek Movie I loved.
I agree with you there. Q is one of the best chars in ST, and is one of the best ideas the Star Trek writers have ever had. Of course, they screwed him over in VOY and DS9.......but John de Lancie is still a great actor.
And the reason I hate Roddenberry, is because I blame him for all those things themes that screwed up TNG.
The new Trek Movie I kind of view it as proof of the fact that people don't like the naive, living room version of Trek, and would much prefer a kind of grimmer, darker version of Trek. I hope that means people would fething love a 40k movie.
xiophen42 wrote:heres just some information that might help with the debate:
just some info on the iom ship capabilities:
Sensors and sublight speeds:
The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"
As you can see the Iom fleet parked in orbit on arround Hereden detects in real time a chas fleet arriving some 9 aus in distance away thats roughly 74.85 light minutes away or 1,346,380,836.219 km away this again is a real times sensor feed.
No, they detect the emergence from the warp, which as you would expect they are set up to detect. Your quote does not prove that they can detect the actual ships.
FOr example in other abnett books it mentions that they have to estimate the size of the fleet by the warp "wake" they push ahead of them - not by actual inspection ofg th eships.
xiophen42 wrote:Beyond which we know that 40k space battles take place across hundreds of thousnads of Km to a million Km, again they receive live real time sensors information in regards to theses again this range easily make thier sensors ranghing from light seconds to light minuts in range.
Uh, no. There is no source stating they get *real time* sensor images - they certaiunly get sensor feeds, but neither your quote nor anything I have read states that these are real time.
xiophen42 wrote:So to answer the question yes Iom vessels have ftl sensors and wqill be capable of detecting startrek vessels traveling at pretty much any speed they travel. so no No Picard manuever. * though we will relate to that in a moment*
Uh, no. You have made an unsupported leap.
First, you assumed that detecting a warp emergence of a fleet == detecting the ships themselves. Secondly you assume that detecting a fleet emerging from warp (something an astopathicae would be HIGHLY attuned to) is equivalent to detecting a trek ship moving at warp speed.
And that second assumption has already been exposed many, manyt times. Your only HINT at detecting trek ships at warp is hoping that psykers can.
So, unti you can provide *proof* that they can detect ships at warp [and the closest you have to trek Warp are necrons ships, which Astropaths cant detect....] then your assumption is refuted.
xiophen42 wrote:JUst to touch on the combat ranges as well trek combat ranges normally are in the 10k Km with maximum photon torp and phaser ranges as quoting out as 40k. 40k space combat considers 10k kms as point blank range where teleports normally occur boarding parties etc happen. normal weapons ranges is 60 - 80k kms with weapons extending out to 150k kms and 300k km with fighters, bombers and torps having even further ranges.
Uh, no. Max range of a torp at 2268 was 300k km.[conincidentaly a light second] Later torps have higher ranges - the clas 6, in use with VOY, was 8m KM. Please show your "quote" showing a 40k km range - as Ive already put the MA quotes in showing something different.
Also phasers would not attentuate at distancfe, as they are collimated beams - they dont spread. So in theory they have a fairly long range, until hit by something. the "effective" range is the limit at which you can reliably hit something when you have a beam of light moving in a straight line [yes, yes, grav lensing, but effectively straight for what we are concerned with] against ships moving without caring about inertia.
xiophen42 wrote:As far as the supposed warp combat speed fo trek the only time wee see any 24th century trek battle with something faster then impluse speeds is the famous picard manuever. Every other combat we see is at impulse speeds. Impulse is again just factors of true light speed from the various trek cannon.
Full impulse is normally quoted 1/2c, but again doesnt have areal limit - it is just that they dont NEED speeds above that, as warp travel is so easy and safe.
xiophen42 wrote: nOw on to 40k combats speeds:
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.
FRom here we see a fleet go from an orbit to engage the chaos fleet 9 AU's away. FRom text we see the ships launching fighters 42 minutes later.
So far you have shown they are engaging a fleet light minutes away, this does not tell you the speed they move away at, and does not tell you the orbital speed they had - for erxample it could be a powered orbit, which is tighter to the planetary surface than the speed would normally imply.
xiophen42 wrote:Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor
*note thes e source quotes provides by Inquisitor Ryan at spacebattles.com
This proves that the shiips entered the warp at 3/4c. this does not imply ANYTHING about manouverability.
xiophen42 wrote:As you can see the ships go from a dead orbit and accelerate to thier attack speed which again is 3/4 the speed of light. we Know that the IOm vessels intercepted the chaos fleet some 93 minutes later which again support combat speed of 3/4 the speed of light. again given the 9 au distance this supports the close to light speed capabilties of the IOm vessels. again these speeds would easily be the equal to the TRek impulse speeds.
Nope, you have that wrong - we know the *attacking ships* aiming TOWARDS Herodur are at 3/4c, we have no informaiton on the speed of the defending ship - not directly from the quote.
A closing speed of c at 74 light minutes taking 94 minutes implies one was only travelling at more like .5c - however this STILL tells you NOTHING about how fast they can change their *relative* positions, more that they have brutal real space engines.
I say again: at NO POINT have I said that Trek ships are inately faster in real space. They are, however, higher manouverability and so their RELATIVE speeds are diferent.
Absolute /= Relative. Find something which tells you how fast you can change an IoM relative position (in other words, their delta delta V)
xiophen42 wrote:
As you can see there will be no trek ships zipping arround damaging iom vessels to slow and ponderious to catch them. both trek and Iom vessels will be traveling at relative speeds to each other.
No, they wont. again, see above - you have shown an ability to accelerate to a high absiolute speed. You have not shown ANY evidence for an ability to alter direction on a pin, or any form of inertia suppression to allow the MASSIVE teratonnage ship to turn qiuckly.
Fighters and bombers have very similar absiolute speeds, but their deltaV differences makes one zip around the other. Which is exactly what the Trek ships CAN do, even assuming they decide to drop out of Warp.
xiophen42 wrote:As far as FTL speeds anyone that things trek is fast is just refusing to admit the obvious. IOm ships can travel as speeds in the 540k warp that make trek speeds look like they are crawling. we know from VOY that it would have taken the ship and normal top fed speed 75 years to return to earth. A 40k vessel can travel this distance in a few months on average the far end of the delta quad. without the worm hole would have taken again 70 some od light years per TNG and DS9. Again IOM vessels would travel this in months. Again 40k ftl is far superior to trek in all but possibly short jaunts.
Sigh.
Can an IoM attack objects in real space while in Warp? No you say?
Which is my point. IoM ships have to drop to real space to attack objects in real space. The Trek ships do not
And as you have not shown any ability to detgect Trek FTL they are safe from retaliation.
Your figures are also off - the reason why it was a 70years journey is because it could only, reliably, maintain warp 9. However over short distances it can travel at warp 9.95 - which IS faster than the warp. It is als not "mere months" to travel across the galaxy - reading some more guard novels it shows them taking 6 months to travel across a sector.
xiophen42 wrote:As far as scale: the IOm has over a million worlds spread out over the galaxy normally their is approximatly 50 - 75 ships per 200 or so planets as standard with hundreds of crusading fleets. This gives the IOM well over 250,000 to 375,000 ships not counting Adeptus Asteres vessels, mechnicius vessel arebitors, sob and inquisiton ships and crusade fleets.
Not disagreeing here. However we know the HUGE inefficiencies of the Administratum, and the delays - read brotherhood of the snake when they mention how slow the imperium responds.
xiophen42 wrote:Remember their is only 150 planets in the federation and 100s colony planets. with a few thousand naval vessels. the federation is 8000 ly across
Remember the numbers above the iom can attack every planet that the feds have with a fleet of 100 vessels amd still have over half of their fleet held in reserve. they could due this as a simultanious attack all within a days time span.
No, No they couldnt.
For a start - they could not organise that quickly or that efficiently. The Administratum loses *entire planets* by accident.
Secondly, Warp travel is simply NOT that reliable, duration compared to real space / time wise. Voyages can take weeks, years, or send you back in time.
Thirdly - tiem keepiung is not accurate across even a sector. What do you think the digits in front of a time stamp mean? They are how *accurate* that time stamp is meant to be (based on NTP from the looks of it, which is kinda funky ) based on the distance from Terra the timestamp is generated. A timestamp on terra has absolute accuracty (1) - and the numbers go up as you go futher away.
So by the time you get to 8k ly away that single "day" you mention might be 2 weeks before or 2 months behind.
xiophen42 wrote:as for Populations and production capabilities the iom has 32,000 hive world alone that each have populations of hundreds of billions.
Agreed. With most NON hive planets dedicated to producing food for those hive worlds. Destroy a few supply fleets and those hive worlds riot - until the UFP come along and give them free energy and free matter replication (i.e. free food)
Watch them renounce the imperium in seconds.
xiophen42 wrote:With and Undefined number of forger world and shipyards. The vast majority of world are considered modern world with population of 10 billion plus with what would be considered tech level above what you see in your average trek planet.
Now you are simply pulling that argument from nowehere. Quotes please to back up such an extraordinary claim, or it is dismissed as hyperbole.
Hiveworlds are modern, yes, but only for the spire. Read some necromunda novels and see if you thnk hive worlds are "modern" compared to trek. worlds.
Again: free energy, free necessities of life, civilian transporters, civilian spaceflight, etc. NO IoM world has this technology at all, never mind "most" having technology in advance of a trek world
xiophen42 wrote:As for productions capabilities we have a feral world *again a stone age world* produce enough materials in a 10 year span to creeate a lunar class cruiser.
the Iom does have the tech to build new ships, tanks, guns, titans etc.
Only because of STCs. Destroy the STCs and they are stuffed.
Because they do not understand their tech, if you remove their abilty to mass produce they cioyuld not recreate their tech from scratch.
You are repeatedly told in books that they are regressing - they are losing the ability to reproduce tech. E.G. the renegade inquisitor and his body shredding smart bolt rounds in souldrinkers novel 5.
This is EXACTLY the opposite of Trek.
xiophen42 wrote:Now we come to the teleportation tech TRek teleports have issues teleporting through dense material and has never been able to teleport through trek shields.
Yes, some alloys with unusual properties.
However they teleport through ships fine, ships hulls are made from tritanium and dense material and 21.4times harder than diamond. Please provide some figures on how "hard" or "dense" ADamantium is, otherwise it is assumed to be equivalent and transportable through, as that is the simplest premise.
And again, you CAN beam through shields- if you know their frequency.
xiophen42 wrote:IOM shields block necron teleportation which is simular to trek teleportation but more reliable.
Please provide some proof of this.
xiophen42 wrote:As well as extradimensions teleportation in the form of the geller fields. IOM teleportation travels through the warp and would not be stops by trek shields as they have no means to protect them selves from extra dimensional teleportation.
Yet. Yet again you ignore (surprise) that the Feds know how to innovate.
PLus, we know void shields, like all standard IoM tech, is based on EM principles. That means that the federation can analyse, understand, and reproduce. Ditto null fields, etc. We';ve aklready been through this before - and noone has yet been able to find fault with that idea.
Omegus This is the point I was making with the understanding - following a set of instructions (installing implants, and modifying them, not creating somethign NEW) is VERY different to understanding those instructions and why you are following them.
Knowledge /= understanding
[I "know" that an electron is a wave and a particle. I dont understnad the why. I hope this shows the difference between mere knowledge and intelligent understanding of that knowledge. Otherwise the internet would be considered an AI - yet it isnt]
If you know the "why" and the "how" you can innovate, adapt and overcome. This is what the Feds do allt he damn time - and the IoM cannot do.
Understanding is a HUGE advantage.
xiophen42 wrote:And finally we have fire power:
TRek weapons are rate from their own manual sources as being any where from 30 - 70 megatons per torps and phasers.
Nope, 690 gigatons. See the memory alpha quotes, already provided.
xiophen42 wrote: We know that the galaxy class ship normally can only take a few barrages of such weapons before they fail, rough the equivalent of a few hundred megatons. Once the shield fail trek weapons usually destroy the target ship with one or 2 more weapon volleys. with roughly a 40k km max range and normal ranges of 10k km.
I have already shown that these yields and ranges are hideously innaccurate to known canon. Please respond and revise accordingly.
xiophen42 wrote:IOm weapons have do tripple digit gigton damage to double digit teraton level damage with space hulk supplying us with a solid figure of torpedo power being 610 gtons in damage.
So, the same as a class 6 torpedo not on its highest setting, then.
And you have still yet to provide proof of ability to target highly manouverable ships. Trek provides proof that their ships can manage it, whereas BFG shows the opposite...
xiophen42 wrote: Again these weapons commenly range out to 60k - 80kn km on average with 10k being point blank range. 40k shields can absorb this firepower level of tripple digit gton and low level tton before they fail.
We've been through this before: torpedoes would go through the shields (as they do in BFG) so shield level is irrelevant. they also have more intelligent targetting and, due to the far lower mass (btw someone went trhrough the yield figures for something in the gigaton range using fusion reactions - your torpedoes are massive, slow lumbering ships compared to agile pho-torps)
xiophen42 wrote:After that the IOM vessel then have dozens of M thick Admantite armor which is actually normally able to absorb more damage then their shields are. We have quotes of those same 610 gtpn torps exploding inside crusiers and the cruisers still beng able to continue combat. More dominating is that weapon barrages are said to fill 10ks worth of space with a variety of fire power in attempts to damage opposing vessels causing huge field 10s of thousands of km in diameter with tripple digit gton damage. Weapons like the Nova cannon and bombarment cannons fire shells that move at close to the speed of light. The are the size of 50 m buildings thats when calced does pton level damage at point of impact and has a radius of affect the size of small moons that causes tton level damage.
Doesnt matter if you cannot hit the ships in the first place becasuse you cannot see them.
The reason why you can absorb so many hits is because 40k targetting is primitive - they rely on rolling freaking broadsides! Trek on the othe hand can launch something at warp that can accurately hit an object tens of metres in size (as has been referenced before) so hitting say, the highly explosve Plasma containment vessels wouldnt be a problem
xiophen42 wrote:The Picard manuever at best will damage the paint job of the IOm vessel.
When you get the yields wrong, and make invalid assumptions - yes.
Or, on the other hand, those multigigaton launches would cripple the engines, leabving the ship without power and dead in space.
xiophen42 wrote:The feds are in a no win situation they are out numbered out gunned to such a degree that its not funny.
Outnumbered yes, however the IoM has shown it cannot organise to effectively USE that - despite your flawed assumption to the contrary.
Outgunned no - each class 6 torpedo matches a IoM torpedo, can be fired at FTL veliocities and is orders of magnitude more accurate. Oh, and launched froma ship you cannot detect or effect.
And this ignores phasing technology - moving out of phase [so you can neither detect nor interact with the object], through your hull and exploding within the plasma containment vessel [which is the temp of a sun 0- but torpedos can survive into the centre of a sun, at least for a few seconds. Which is MORE than long enough] blowing you apart from within.
Or timeshifting (voyager) the torpedo. Same as above.
And this is *all* possible as it is all extant tech within the federation - just not widely used, mainly the risks but a massive war would focus their minds and they would respond - like against the Borg.
To sum up: you make unqualified leaps to form conclusions at odds with the presented evidence, make extraordinary claims with no back up, and [assuming you read the thread] inserted known inaccurate figures in order to "prove" a point.
It was full of some interesting figures - however your conclusions are inaccurate and already proven so.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And this ignores phasing technology - moving out of phase [so you can neither detect nor interact with the object], through your hull and exploding within the plasma containment vessel [which is the temp of a sun 0- but torpedos can survive into the centre of a sun
TBH that wouldn't even matter, as even if the torpedo melts, the antimatter comes into contact with matter and goes boom.
It was more to ensure the reaction proceeds as expected, as they seem to get more power out of the AM reaction than the amount of A-matter invoilved suggests.
So people keep bringing up the inability of the IoM ships to deal with the more manuverable FoP crafts due to their own primitive methods of combat.
If they are so poor against this kind of threat, why are they able to engage and defeat both Eldar and Necron fleets, both of which are significantly faster than IoM ships both for ftl and sublight... Heck the necrons I believe have been described as having to slow down to engage fleets for bfg.
Also, let's say that the IoM cannot attack the fed ships while they remain at warp. The imperial commanders aren't stupid... They would just begin to attack starbases and planets, which would force the fleet to stop the strafing runs to at least try rescue and intercept missions before the stationary targets are annihilated.
And just when this thread got pleasant again... :(
I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!" Again, even if we assume that Star Trek ships can strafe Imperial ships with impunity, there are simply not enough ships in the Federation and their weapons are not up to par to destroy Imperial ships fast enough to stop them destroying all of their bases and planets. And even if the Federation started likewise targeting Imperial bases/planets, again we have the discrepancy of the Imperium having far more planets, far more ships, and being far more used to annihilating all life from a planet's surface. Quantity has a quality all of its own. The Imperium literally has more planets than the Federation has ships by an order of magnitude. Conversely, the Imperium could throw a thousand ships at every Federation planet and still have some left over.
"Destroy the STC and they can't do anything"? All known STCs are archived by the Adeptus Mechanicus.
There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.
I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.
ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.
Nosferatu: Once again, I have to notice that you like to downplay any example that demonstrates potential Imperial superiority. For one thing, we must assume the simplest possible solution when we don't know what exactly happened. You have to supply the evidence that the Imperial Fleet departing Hereodor used some kind of advantage to pick up that much speed that quickly. Otherwise, we assume that they left using only their engines.
Secondly, destroy the STC? That may cripple the AdMech....on the one forge world you destroyed it on. The sheer number of forge worlds means that destroying the STC on one wouldn't utterly and completely devastate the Imperium. Serve as a major annoyance, yes. Lots of people were pissed when Gryphonne IV fell, and LOTS more would be pissed if Ryza fell, but the Imperium wouldn't be destroyed. And Omegus is right with his quote. The Imperium has more ships than the Federation can throw and it'll only take one Astartes stirke cruiser or one big IG transport ship to take a Trek planet. Once Imperial ground forces are planetside any superiority in space the Fed may or may not have is moot. They wouldn't fire on their own planet.
Most importantly, I think you GROSSLY overestimate the power of Federation consumer technology. Power in the Federation isn't free. THat's physically impossible. It has to come from somewhere, and it seems that most of that somewhere is antimatter reactors, which need maintenance from highly trained technicians or they go boom, a constant supply of relatively rare dilithium and antimatter to keep it working. Plus, the Imperium consumes power at a rate the Federation can not comprehend. They have never seen an entire planet covered by towering cities or massive factory complexes. They would be hard pressed to supply enough power to the planet to give them 'free power'. And don't say that the Federation doesn't need their planet supply lines and everything else. They have shown that they have to stop off at supply station to replace things as simple as a 'dilithium matrix hatch' (at least I think that's it's name...) which appears to be nothing more than a large hunk of metal, but no doubt built to a higher degree of tolerance than the replicator can provide.
Additionally, replicators do not create food and other things out of nothingness. It needs what is referred to as 'raw foodstuff' to make its food. Not to mention, it is extremely energy wasteful, and is only useful in granting a crew a MASSIVE variety to a crew. (More examples of how Starfleet seems more like a pleasure line than a military ). Wouldn't it be a hundred times more pragmatic to not spend god knows how much energy on providing your crew every material desire they could want, and instead just carry regular food or rations? (hmmm, slaneesh might love replicators though.... )
And I also believe Martrak's point was that the Imperium has experience in dealing with highly manuverable enemies, so seeing Federation ships flit around like fragile butterflies would not be a huge surprise. They would simply flip open their Codex Imperialis to the section on fighting Eldar and use those tactics.
And....Nosferatu, there is no way in hell a photon torpedo can have a 690 gigaton payload. It is canon that a photon torpedo's warhead is 1.5 kg of antimatter, 1.5 kg of matter. Assuming 100% reaction effectiveness, this gives us a yield of 64 megatons. And this also assumes alot. It assumes that a) there will be 100% reactivity and b) all energy is put into the target. It is highly unlikely that there will be 100% reactivity, so that makes 64 megatons a theoretical high, unlikely to be reached in combat. Not to mention, since photon torpedoes are not shaped weapons half of all the energy they release is radiated uselessly into space. This means that at MAXIMUM assuming perfect reactivity, a photon torpedo will deliver 32 megatons to its target. A far cry from your 690 gigatons.
Now, when canon and real science contradict, I will go with real science, and that means that there is no magical yield enhancer in a photon torpedo. There is 1.5 kg of matter, 1.5 kg of antimatter. And before you say that means all of 40k is useless I'll say this. 40k does not attempt to explain how their technology works, only that it does. That means that somehow, someway, they've found a way to make whatever they have work, and we must assume that it does. On the other hand, Star Trek gives us real figures to work with, and those real figures let us extrapolate what happens with known laws. When the laws of physics and ST canon contradict, we must go with known laws of physics.
Edit: FocusedFire....I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Please say you are. But if not...please remember we're not talking ST galaxy against the IoM. We're talking Federation against the IoM which is something totally different. We are also assuming each side has all resources available to it.
ChrisWWII wrote:
Now, when canon and real science contradict, I will go with real science, and that means that there is no magical yield enhancer in a photon torpedo. There is 1.5 kg of matter, 1.5 kg of antimatter. And before you say that means all of 40k is useless I'll say this. 40k does not attempt to explain how their technology works, only that it does. That means that somehow, someway, they've found a way to make whatever they have work, and we must assume that it does. On the other hand, Star Trek gives us real figures to work with, and those real figures let us extrapolate what happens with known laws. When the laws of physics and ST canon contradict, we must go with known laws of physics.
In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual a figure of 1,5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. Furthermore it is not clear if the 1,5 kg should be compared to the 200 isoton figure given on-screen, or the 25 isoton figure given in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.
Using standard physics, you can't travel faster than light, but in Star Trek they do. It's scifi, so using current physics to do the math isn't really a good way to disprove something in this kind of discussion.
Edit: From your argument Star Trek doesn't have FTL capability (since Einstein told us it is impossible). You are assuming everything we know right now is correct,
arguing about potential future developments is hard with that restriction. Humans knew the world was flat once too. That something is considered a fact does not make it universally true.
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focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.
I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.
ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.
Klingon wariors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)
Accersitus, that kind of misses my point. ST says they have warp drive, and basically leaves it at that. That means they have some kind of ability to circumvent Einstein's speed limit, simply because they told us they do. However, antimatter reactions are something that we know and are fixed. Nothing will cause an atom of antimatter to react with any more force when it comes in contact with an atom of matter.
It's simply impossible to have 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter to react with the force you quote. No matter how densely you pack it 1.5 kg is 1.5 kg. That's a set amount of antimatter, and using 1:1 reaction rate we get 64 megatons as our maximum threshold
ChrisWWII wrote:Accersitus, that kind of misses my point. ST says they have warp drive, and basically leaves it at that. That means they have some kind of ability to circumvent Einstein's speed limit, simply because they told us they do. However, antimatter reactions are something that we know and are fixed. Nothing will cause an atom of antimatter to react with any more force when it comes in contact with an atom of matter.
It's simply impossible to have 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter to react with the force you quote. No matter how densely you pack it 1.5 kg is 1.5 kg. That's a set amount of antimatter, and using 1:1 reaction rate we get 64 megatons as our maximum threshold
Actually does it really matter. In all the arguements so far we have an unfettered IoM attacking a fettered SF, so a horrendous amount of ships keep being quoted as the deciding factor in the battle going to the IoM. Lets be fair and apply this to SF. No treaties are to be used against any technology shown to have been developed in the series?
So I will have a cloaked runabout, not a capital ship note but the SF equivalent of a car with a 64MT torpedo that can phase. I don't care what the defensive properties are of adamantium and I don't care about the yeild. A 64MT explosion within the hull of an IoM ship will hollow it out. (And SF get a load of rare metals for the next batch of weapons going through the replicators.)
If both sides are to be handicapped in the same way, then SF have a huge advantage in numbers over the couple of dozen IoM warships sent their way. Because the IoM can't send anymore than that without seriously weakening themseves against other threats. Or taking several years in which to make the administrative orders and amass the fleet. However, SF has that period of time in which to research and counteract any advantages. Remember non warp species can and do research the warp, take the Medusa? campaign and the aims of the Tau. They left with a shed load of info for analysis. What could SF do with the same info? Just as Nos' pointed out earlier.
Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.
Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.
focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe.
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AndrewC wrote: A 64MT explosion within the hull of an IoM ship will hollow it out. (And SF get a load of rare metals for the next batch of weapons going through the replicators.)
Except we have examples of Imperial ships taking hits in the gigaton range and keep fighting. Really, you are just grasping at straws. And there is no indication the Federation uses replicators to create weapons if something as simple as a hatch requires a stop-over. There's a reason why they build ship docks instead of a huge friggin' replicator and just going "One star ship please, k thx".
focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.
I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.
ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.
WHAT? Your talking about The Imperium of man which is over 600 TRILLION PEOPLE. Not only that But the Imperium of man has the Greatest weapons, armor, and personnel ever. OK! The black templars took on a entire advance human species with only 76 men! Ok they were facing things that were very powerful ok? They won and they pwned their asses.
All the 40k books point to that the imperial warmachine is unbeatable. And it has never been defeated. (in that it hasn't fallen).
It's been close but that is from the inside.
THE ENTIRE ST GALAXY WOULD GET OWNED!
No chaos, no problems with warp travel in the ST galaxy= Unbeatable Imperial Navy.
There are billions of ships in the Imperium. BILLIONS.
The United Federation of Planets would not stand a chance. Even if they were on the offensive. The Imperium of man has mobile defence turrets surronding their planets. The UFP does not. OK?
Planet cracker sent. UFP planet destroyed.
OK the Imperium has millions of worlds. Millions. The UFP Does not have millions. Probably a couple hundred. And not only that but the entire galaxy we are not talking about. We are talking about the UFP not the Entire ST gaxaly.
If we wanted to compare who would win the 40k universe or the St universe.
40k would because of Chaos. So you can't say that the imperium would get owned! Because we have no idea how destructive the imperium is. There are so many untold stories about space warfare. The Battle for Terra. Which had the largest fleets ever known fighting each other. Was so titantic that it boiled the seas and destoried metropolis's. And not only that but it spanned the Entire Imperium. OK?? The ST Gaxaly only has one big war that does not have massive weapons of mass destruction shooting each other. No. They have lasers and Photo torpedoes. even if they did have a super weapon. How they going to equip every single ship? The imperium has standard armament to every ship.
END OF HATE!
Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.
Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.
Andrew
Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.
Additionally, we know that the warhead fuel is antideutrium and deutrium. We also know how much energy the reaction of one atom of antideutrium with one atom of deutrium releases. Scaling this up gives us a figure of 64 megatons. There is no way that 1.5 kg of antimatter reacting with 1.5 kg of matter can result in 690 gigatons.
Not to mention, your argument is flawed in that you assume the Federation can preform this activity with enough quantity to defeat the Imperium, but please remember, what is the likelihood that the Romulans would share their cloaking technology? More importantly, does the Federation have the industrial capacity to churn OUT enough cloaking devices and ships to defeat the Imperium? THe answer is no.
Yeah chances of them getting the man power and the ships are 0.0000000000000000000000001% it would mean that every person in entire gaxaly has to have 100 Childern EACH. And maintain that for 2,000 years. and that will still not work. You can not become as powerful as the Imperium
Everyone keeps missing the point in that they have super armor, weapons, and personnel. YOU KEEP FORGETING THAT. FTL LALALALALA. Really. how many shots can you shoot that could level an entire planet. NONE!
Thats why the Imperium rarely misses with its guns. Because if they missed they would make someone's day miserable. If we were comparing Mass Effect VS. UFP I would say it would be a tie. you cannot compare a civilzation that is 36,000 years in the Future to the year 4,000 or what ever. You cannot compare them they are incomparable.
Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.
Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.
Andrew
Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.
Additionally, we know that the warhead fuel is antideutrium and deutrium. We also know how much energy the reaction of one atom of antideutrium with one atom of deutrium releases. Scaling this up gives us a figure of 64 megatons. There is no way that 1.5 kg of antimatter reacting with 1.5 kg of matter can result in 690 gigatons.
Not to mention, your argument is flawed in that you assume the Federation can preform this activity with enough quantity to defeat the Imperium, but please remember, what is the likelihood that the Romulans would share their cloaking technology? More importantly, does the Federation have the industrial capacity to churn OUT enough cloaking devices and ships to defeat the Imperium? THe answer is no.
The In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual states the yield of the warhead would be equivalent of 690gigatons even if standard physics would give a max yield of 64 megatons. The fact that they mention the yield you would get using current physics is most likely just there to show how much more advanced their science is supposed to be compared to current science.
The romulans actually give their cloaking tech to the federation in the DS9 series (when faced with a significant threat).
Edit: To be more precise, They gave one of their cloaking devices to the federation to be installed on the USS defiant under supervision
to spy on the dominion, but it was allowed to stay even after the romulan supervisor left the ship.
This sets a precedent that the romulans could share their cloaking tech in a situation like an invading IoM.
Edit2: The advantage with being diplomatic (pussies), is that people will believe you if you promise them not to use the cool new tech they gave you against them.
ChrisWWII wrote: FocusedFire....I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Please say you are. But if not...please remember we're not talking ST galaxy against the IoM. We're talking Federation against the IoM which is something totally different. We are also assuming each side has all resources available to it.
Actually I was going off of an extrapolation that is based off of information at hand. My points:
1)There is no known full estimation of the population levels of the Star Trek Universe.
2) We do get the occasional planetary and system population levels in various movies and episodes that show an avg population that easily equals the average Imperial system population totals.
3)The IoM population level of 600 trillion is a very low number when spread across the galaxy.
(Example- Currently the earth is approaching 10 billion people. Using this as a basis then the IoM=60,000 current earths. Now take the earths population and increase it to what is estimated as its maximum sustainable population of 50 Billion and you are down to 12,000 earths. This isn't taking into account larger planets and multiple planets within a system that easily halves the total number of systems under IoM control down to 6,000 systems and that is being kind.)
4)Many of the IoM's worlds and their systems are either primitive or have no regular contact with their Imperial overseers, which means that their populations don't contribute to the totals.
5)If the federation system totals are an indication of the rest of the ST galaxy then the IoM would most likely not have the forces available to acomplish a conquest of the ST galaxy.
I make no claim that all of my arguments are perfect or even necessarily accurate. I do maintain that there is not enough background information to know the population levels in the Star Trek Galaxy.
Accersitus wrote:Klingon warriors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)
There were no Klingons on board Kirks enterprise when dealing with Khan so your example is invalid. From what little has been given about the alien physiology, it seems that klingons are close to SM equivalents when not considering Power Armour. When looking at boarding actions, the SM power armour becomes a problem because federation ships don't have giant gothic hallways.
Omegus wrote:
focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe.
Statement based off of no know ST galaxy wide population totals.
Asherian Command wrote:
WHAT? Your talking about The Imperium of man which is over 600 TRILLION PEOPLE. Not only that But the Imperium of man has the Greatest weapons, armor, and personnel ever. OK! The black templars took on a entire advance human species with only 76 men! Ok they were facing things that were very powerful ok? They won and they pwned their asses.
All the 40k books point to that the imperial warmachine is unbeatable. And it has never been defeated. (in that it hasn't fallen).
It's been close but that is from the inside.
THE ENTIRE ST GALAXY WOULD GET OWNED!
No chaos, no problems with warp travel in the ST galaxy= Unbeatable Imperial Navy.
There are billions of ships in the Imperium. BILLIONS.
The United Federation of Planets would not stand a chance. Even if they were on the offensive. The Imperium of man has mobile defence turrets surronding their planets. The UFP does not. OK?
Planet cracker sent. UFP planet destroyed.
OK the Imperium has millions of worlds. Millions. The UFP Does not have millions. Probably a couple hundred. And not only that but the entire galaxy we are not talking about. We are talking about the UFP not the Entire ST gaxaly.
If we wanted to compare who would win the 40k universe or the St universe.
40k would because of Chaos. So you can't say that the imperium would get owned! Because we have no idea how destructive the imperium is. There are so many untold stories about space warfare. The Battle for Terra. Which had the largest fleets ever known fighting each other. Was so titantic that it boiled the seas and destoried metropolis's. And not only that but it spanned the Entire Imperium. OK?? The ST Gaxaly only has one big war that does not have massive weapons of mass destruction shooting each other. No. They have lasers and Photo torpedoes. even if they did have a super weapon. How they going to equip every single ship? The imperium has standard armament to every ship.
END OF HATE!
Easy to provoke, Must be one of them Black Templars that all of the other SM chapters make fun of.
I will make this one point to you. Because the IoM is invading the ST universe and seeing as fantasy does not exist within the ST universe. Then all magic and warp effects do not exist and the IoM is stuck moving at Sub-light. This would probably give the federation time to more than adequately prepare and humiliate the IoM.
ChrisWWII wrote:Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.
And the Federation can level planets by using ists deflectors and tractor beams an the tectonic plates to rip the planet apart. Seeing as The IoM has no such tech and no dejense against such, the Federation rips the Imperial Barges apart.
Asherian Command wrote:Yeah chances of them getting the man power and the ships are 0.0000000000000000000000001% it would mean that every person in entire gaxaly has to have 100 Childern EACH. And maintain that for 2,000 years. and that will still not work. You can not become as powerful as the Imperium
Please to note my above ^reply to your prior post.
Accersitus wrote:Klingon warriors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)
There were no Klingons on board Kirks enterprise when dealing with Khan so your example is invalid. From what little has been given about the alien physiology, it seems that klingons are close to SM equivalents when not considering Power Armour. When looking at boarding actions, the SM power armour becomes a problem because federation ships don't have giant gothic hallways.
I'm talking about Star Trek: Enterprise. Season 4 episode 4 "Borderland" Start of the episode.
No one counts enturdprise as a part of star trek. Scott Bakula and co killed the franchise. The series was made without roddenbarry due to his being dead. How UPN managed to get the rights to use the name I don't know but the series had little to do with the established background.
The only good part of the series was the ship looked nice and the character of the chief engineer.
Bringing up Enterprise opens the debate up to alternate universes. If we are bringing in alternate realities then I propose the the Imperial Earth forces of the bearded Kirk Would totally own the IoM.
focusedfire wrote:No one counts enturdprise as a part of star trek. Scott Bakula and co killed the franchise. The series was made without roddenbarry due to his being dead. How UPN managed to get the rights to use the name I don't know but the series had little to do with the established background.
The only good part of the series was the ship looked nice and the character of the chief engineer.
Bringing up Enterprise opens the debate up to alternate universes. If we are bringing in alternate realities then I propose the the Imperial Earth forces of the bearded Kirk Would totally own the IoM.
I'm not saying it is as good as the other trek series, but a lot of the of the stuff in that series is at least loosely based on concepts from the previous series.
(Augments: ToS, 29th century time agency: Voyager, peaceful explorers interested in diplomacy: TNG)
It's like a sci-fi prequel that doesn't live up to what it is based on, but looks nice (where have I heard that before ).
Alternate realities where the federation is more warlike is not unique to that series.
One example is TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise".
FocusedFire: I'm sorry to say I disagree with you on your claim about the Federation's planet busting ability. The episode where the Romulans and Cardassians attacked the Founder's homeworld? They used standard weapons on the planet, instead of this tractor beam tectonic plate movement thingy you mention. Moreover, the Enterprise showed in an inability to move a single large asteroid in Deja Q showing that their tractor beam technology would be insufficient to move something as massive as a continent!
But onto the point about the size of the Imperium.....I think the number '600 trillion' is much too far low. The total population of the Imperium is more likely in the low quadrillions than the high trillions. More importantly, most of the Imperium is NOT at war. Most planets live in relative peace, and are thriving as far as industrial (or food) and population goes. And actually...most planets in the Imperium are not feral or medieval worlds, but are civilized worlds. These planets are described as being self sufficient with populations in the low billions, and generally stand at the standard Imperial tech level.
Plus remember, we are not talking Imperium of Man versus entire Star Trek galaxy. We are talking Imperiumn of Man versus the Federation. Each side has its own resources and only those resources on hand.
I just read through Execution Hour (mostly the space battle parts), and must admit I was a little disappointed at the firepower involved.
Abbadons Planet killer takes 20 minutes before the planet explodes (compared to the rather more effective death star in star wars).
Note though this concerns the Dictator class cruiser (a modified lunar class cruiser that has fighters and bombers instead of lance batteries).
3km long (only 4 times the length of a galaxy class starship) Lord Solar Macharius.
Armored prow made of strengthened adamantium (the hardest material known to IoM),
but the blast shields for the bridge viewports are only a few feet of titanium steel.
-This sounds like 1 Federation torpedo could take out the bridge of this ship (if they can penetrate/overload the void shields
in some way, since the shields are warp based this is a hard subject to debate best solution I have come up with is "brakes" on the federation torpedoes
slowing them to IoM torpedo speed for the very last part).
IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).
Give me a defiant class starship any day instead of a squadron of 30 IoM bombers (each about 40%-60% the size of a defiant class starship).
IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.
The lance batteries on the Gothic class cruiser Drachenfels seem more impressive, but since the Lord Solar Macharius is the
protagonist ship of the book, most of the focus is directed there.
I know these are not the largest ships in the imperial navy, but in the book, cruisers are portrayed as powerful ships.
IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).
IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.
You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers, moreover, we also have to note that the effectiveness of a torpedo fired at a thick skinned Imperial ship does not produce the same result as being fired at a thin skinned Federation ship. While the bombers would no doubt suffer heavy casualties on their attack runs, the torpedoes that were launched would meet less anti projectile fire and not have to pierce as much armor. And yes, the armor on the bridge is relatively thin, but also consider the size of the bridge as compared to the size of the rest of the ship. It's not that easy a target to nail.
And yes if that's the speed of an Imperial torpedo (I confess I have never read the book you're quoting here so I'm trusting you. ) then do doubt the Feds will out run them. However, from what I've read in BFG, the primary use of torpedoes isn't to nail fleeing enemies, but instead to provide a first salvo while the fleet is charging to weapons range. I doubt the Federation would be as stupid as to charge the Imperial fleet head on....so I'm guessing torpedoes wouldn't be used very much in Starfleet vs Imperial Fleet battles.....though I can totally see the first Starfleet ship to meet the Imperium closing to their point blank 'negotiation' distance.....only to get a full torpedo salvo in the gut the second the Imperials see a filthy xenos on board.
ChrisWWII wrote:You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers,
You didn't see the new movie. First 3 minutes of the movie shows other-wise.
Oh no, I saw the new movie focusedfire. But remember, that takes place in an alternate reality from the standard one. I am looking at the Federation at the end of the Dominion War era, and not at the alternate reality in the new movie.
I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!"
Uh, no. You have so far ignored that FTL combat IS possible, HAS been shown practical and you have yet to come up with an argument against it....
You then come back with "trillions of people!!! milloions of ships" and have yet to explain how you coordinate a strike, commiunicate with enough precision to actually get people to turn up, and overcome the massive unrfeliability of the warp (fat fractions of your fleet will turn up late, and some turn up early] in delivering to the target(s)
Omegus wrote: Again, even if we assume that Star Trek ships can strafe Imperial ships with impunity, there are simply not enough ships in the Federation and their weapons are not up to par
A single max yield photorp is on par. Guess that makes your argument null.
And no: you dont get to go "but theres no way 1.5kg of AM and......" - you dont get to say thgat. Canon has stated the yield, maximum , of a photorp. 690 gigatons. More than enough to do damage - espeically when you can target an area with precision and have sensors seemingly designed to find weak spots in ships.
It is irrelevant what *our* physics states would happen - there is a stated figure for output. If you want we could probably find fugures disproving the abiulity of lances to poroduce gigatonnage output, based on the fact IoM use fusion reactions to power their ships...
Omegus wrote:to destroy Imperial ships fast enough to stop them destroying all of their bases and planets. And even if the Federation started likewise targeting Imperial bases/planets, again we have the discrepancy of the Imperium having far more planets, far more ships, and being far more used to annihilating all life from a planet's surface. Quantity has a quality all of its own. The Imperium literally has more planets than the Federation has ships by an order of magnitude. Conversely, the Imperium could throw a thousand ships at every Federation planet and still have some left over.
You are assuming you can bring the IoM forces to bear in a set of coordinated strikes.
PLease actually answer the massive flaws I have shown in your capability to do so. Or you are the oone sticking your fingers in your ears....
Omegus wrote:"Destroy the STC and they can't do anything"? All known STCs are archived by the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The STCs are actually machines, you cannot "archive" them as they do not understand how STCs were made - its why they are so valuable, even when recovered they are irreplaceable. [ref: early Ghosts novel where they find the thinking machine STC]
In addition: Enterprise is alternate reality from TOS, TNG, Voy and DS9. They stated as much - they used the changes to the timeline made in first contact
Chris, thanks for the backup. that's what my point was exactly: the imperium has to deal with massively more manuverable enemies all the time, the federation would be no different.
And nosferatu, forgive me for not knowing the amount of time it takes to reach a planet from exiting warp... Was not aware it was that great a distance. However, my point still stands: why not go after stationary targets like stations (ds9 being a good example of a station being on the edge of a system, and I would assume there are others) to force the federation to fight outside of warp simply to engage in support or rescue tactics?
I can't help but see your analogy of hitting targets moving at sublight while at warp being like shooting a pistol at a target the size of a tennis ball, while driving past it at 200+ mph, and expecting to hit every time. That's a lot of variables to consider, and potentially a lot of wasted firepower that would be too sporadic to inflict any major damage.
Don't forget....even if one Imperial transport bull rushes a planet and gets on the ground, or one Astartes ship does the same, the Federation can kiss that planet good bye. And since almost all of the Federation's industrial resources are concentrated in a few systems, losing even one planet like Vulcan or another key planet similar to it would be a catastrophic blow to the Federation. Without its industrial base, Starfleet will slowly starve for want of food, spare parts and the million other things any military needs to keep going. Hell, the surviving commanders may even surrender to save their crews....seems like something the Fed would do.
Nosferatu, they can archive the STC printouts and STCs they have by burrying the machines in massive underground bunkers that you'd have to blow up the planet to get to. Somehow I see the AdMech being willing to do exactly that when it comes to their precious STC. Additonally, we've seen the Imperium able to organize and make massive, coordinated military campaigns before. The Macharian and Sabbat World's Crusades for one....not to mention the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still in power. That was a galaxy spanning military campaign that remained centrally controlled using the same type of technology the Imperium has in its present day.
FocusedFire, yeah that's probably the case....but remember, it doesn't matter what the constraints the show had in our real world. They have what they have on screen.....and to be honest, the Balance of Terror while a good episode has been superseded by later canon. The Balance of Terror had phasers acting as depth charges and other things, and all of that has been replaced by newer canon. (Btw...I just have to say this. I love the Socrates joke in your status, dude )
ChrissWWII - except they need the machines operational in order to produce more of "X" [lands raiders, speeders, etc]
The point was that the *current* Imperium seems incapable of mounting a response to the Tau in anything less than decades. Decades to Federation means a whole magnitude more impressive technology - hell, they now hvae an expert in conduit tech to help their slight disadvantage at long range speeds.
It was centrally controlled - but locally coordinated, as the HH books show. Which si the point: someone posited the rediculous idea that somehow the entire impoerium could launch an attack, all on the same day. Which frankly, is not the simplest solution....
nosferatu1001 wrote:ChrissWWII - except they need the machines operational in order to produce more of "X" [lands raiders, speeders, etc]
The point was that the *current* Imperium seems incapable of mounting a response to the Tau in anything less than decades. Decades to Federation means a whole magnitude more impressive technology - hell, they now hvae an expert in conduit tech to help their slight disadvantage at long range speeds.
It was centrally controlled - but locally coordinated, as the HH books show. Which si the point: someone posited the rediculous idea that somehow the entire impoerium could launch an attack, all on the same day. Which frankly, is not the simplest solution....
The Imperium could crush the Tau. However, they are distracted.
In this hypothetical, there are no distractions, as it is pure IoM vs. ST, no other enemies.
IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).
IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.
You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers, moreover, we also have to note that the effectiveness of a torpedo fired at a thick skinned Imperial ship does not produce the same result as being fired at a thin skinned Federation ship. While the bombers would no doubt suffer heavy casualties on their attack runs, the torpedoes that were launched would meet less anti projectile fire and not have to pierce as much armor. And yes, the armor on the bridge is relatively thin, but also consider the size of the bridge as compared to the size of the rest of the ship. It's not that easy a target to nail.
And yes if that's the speed of an Imperial torpedo (I confess I have never read the book you're quoting here so I'm trusting you. ) then do doubt the Feds will out run them. However, from what I've read in BFG, the primary use of torpedoes isn't to nail fleeing enemies, but instead to provide a first salvo while the fleet is charging to weapons range. I doubt the Federation would be as stupid as to charge the Imperial fleet head on....so I'm guessing torpedoes wouldn't be used very much in Starfleet vs Imperial Fleet battles.....though I can totally see the first Starfleet ship to meet the Imperium closing to their point blank 'negotiation' distance.....only to get a full torpedo salvo in the gut the second the Imperials see a filthy xenos on board.
No they don't, but they deal mostly with energy weapons and projectiles that move a lot faster, Imperial torpedoes as described in this book are over 1k times slower than a federation starship at full impulse. Even if the fighters and bombers are several magnitudes quicker, they are still slow and lumbering compared to federation ships and weapons.
An IoM torpedo ignores an IoM void shield, but not a Federation shield, giving the federation ship a chance to avoid the damage.
It's on the 2nd page in the 5th chapter in part 3 of the book (page 97 in the edition I have) if you want to check it though.
It's not a bad book.
Execution Hour wrote:
Thirty torpedoes, closing on the enemy pack at a speed of tens of kilometres a second.
Although it is noted that when they approach their target, the torpedoes burn the last of their fuel for a speed boost, and fire small manoeuvring thrusters to align their trajectory.
The unimpressive part with the bombers was how close they had to get to get even 70% accuracy.
460km is really point blank in space combat.
Other than the heavily armored prow and lightly armored bridge, the book doesn't mention specific hull materials for the majority of the ship.
And it provides a weak spot the Federation can target.
At the end of the battle where the speed of the torpedoes is mentioned, it is also mentioned that the last kill of the battle
was made by destroying a retreating ship with torpedoes. The ship that was destroyed was noted for being lucky throughout the battle (until it was destroyed ),
and had most likely only suffered minor damage, but it was still not able to outrun torpedoes fired at it as it retreated.
Don't forget....even if one Imperial transport bull rushes a planet and gets on the ground, or one Astartes ship does the same, the Federation can kiss that planet good bye. And since almost all of the Federation's industrial resources are concentrated in a few systems, losing even one planet like Vulcan or another key planet similar to it would be a catastrophic blow to the Federation. Without its industrial base, Starfleet will slowly starve for want of food, spare parts and the million other things any military needs to keep going. Hell, the surviving commanders may even surrender to save their crews....seems like something the Fed would do.
1)Problem is that by your posted scenario the IoM ships would never make it to any of the systems.
2) Except that the Feds industrial base is spread all over their sector of space. It is not limited to just a few planets as you contend.
3)The IoM would have no supplies as per your original post. As a matter of fact, their would be no astronomicon to navigate by.
ChrisWWII wrote:
Nosferatu, they can archive the STC printouts and STCs they have by burrying the machines in massive underground bunkers that you'd have to blow up the planet to get to. Somehow I see the AdMech being willing to do exactly that when it comes to their precious STC. Additonally, we've seen the Imperium able to organize and make massive, coordinated military campaigns before. The Macharian and Sabbat World's Crusades for one....not to mention the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still in power. That was a galaxy spanning military campaign that remained centrally controlled using the same type of technology the Imperium has in its present day.
STC's do not apply in this scenario as per your given scenario the IoM's fleet would be isolated and unsupported. STC's do not exist 37K years back in the Imperiums history.
ChrisWWII wrote:
FocusedFire, yeah that's probably the case....but remember, it doesn't matter what the constraints the show had in our real world. They have what they have on screen.....and to be honest, the Balance of Terror while a good episode has been superseded by later canon. The Balance of Terror had phasers acting as depth charges and other things, and all of that has been replaced by newer canon. (Btw...I just have to say this. I love the Socrates joke in your status, dude )
1)Now you are just unfairly stacking the deck. Your using alternate universes in support of one argument while claiming they can't be used in another.
2)I believe Picard also used Phasers to detonate a warhead that was getting to close to the ship, this woud indicate the use of Phasers as an intercept defense
3)Glad you like the joke. I like the added implied irony when you think of Socrates's philosophical out-look and his famos quote about the more he learned the less he knew.
4)In reply to your Original Post, Kirk or Khan as the early emperor with the edge going to Kirk. Use the weird space string a the key to his survival. That he left a part of himself in what was an early form of the warp. That part, being a natural conqueror, grows in power to the point that the warp ejects the altered/more powerful Kirk back into the material universe.
Think about it, Kirk is a natural conqueror and has Xeno phobic tendencies. Now hust imagine him with the power of the Q.
Klawz wrote:The Imperium could crush the Tau. However, they are distracted.
In this hypothetical, there are no distractions, as it is pure IoM vs. ST, no other enemies.
In the given scenario, the Imperial fleet would have no logistcal support or astronomicom to guide them.
But then it isn't a fight. Just a massacre. You have to assume both sides have access to resources, as the crew of the Enterprise would be just as screwed in the Grimdark far future than a battlefleet would be in te UFP.
Are you guys missing the point? THE UFP CAN'T BREACH THE ARMOR OF THE BFG. YOU KEEP FORGETING LANCE WEAPONS CAN TEAR SHIPS APART! THE IMPERIUM DOES NOT HAVE ALL FANTATICS THERE ARE SOME THAT JUST LOOK INTO THE EMPEROR AS A LEADER!
Also stop giving me this bs about the UFP Has better weapons. Because we don't know how destructive a Lance weapon can be. Ok? We cannot say who would be better. And not only that but they are far more advanced than any other of the Races in the UFP. Oh look we have cloaking. So? They have void shields that can resist several lance shots. And Lasers won't do much ever since its like pointing a flashlight at a Tank. That way you can't blind the Pilot. Anyway its impossible to determine who would win in this fight. Can we just say that it ends with the imperial win? Because they have far more ships and far more powerful weapons that are never used unless needed. The Imperium has weapons that can destory entire planets but they never use them. And don't even mention CHAOS IN THIS THREAD! JUST IMPERIAL!
@Klawz-In order for the scenario to be fair, the battle would have to occur in a between realm created equally by writers from bpth sides. To use either sides universe would be unfair as you are taking something desifbed for one enviroment and are putting it in another. This creates imbalances and weights the battle to one side or the other depending on hoe it is applied.
If you bring the IoM into the ST universe and let it have all of the bonuses without the negatives while still restraining the federation to the confines of its established laws then it is just as unfair as bringing the IoM in without Support ot guidance from the astronomicon.
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Asherian Command wrote:Are you guys missing the point? THE UFP CAN'T BREACH THE ARMOR OF THE BFG. YOU KEEP FORGETING LANCE WEAPONS CAN TEAR SHIPS APART! THE IMPERIUM DOES NOT HAVE ALL FANTATICS THERE ARE SOME THAT JUST LOOK INTO THE EMPEROR AS A LEADER!
Also stop giving me this bs about the UFP Has better weapons. Because we don't know how destructive a Lance weapon can be. Ok? We cannot say who would be better. And not only that but they are far more advanced than any other of the Races in the UFP. Oh look we have cloaking. So? They have void shields that can resist several lance shots. And Lasers won't do much ever since its like pointing a flashlight at a Tank. That way you can't blind the Pilot. Anyway its impossible to determine who would win in this fight. Can we just say that it ends with the imperial win? Because they have far more ships and far more powerful weapons that are never used unless needed. The Imperium has weapons that can destory entire planets but they never use them. And don't even mention CHAOS IN THIS THREAD! JUST IMPERIAL!
Timmy, I know this is an exciting place and that your are feeling a little over stimulated,...breath...just breath and relax. Maybe ou need some quiet time.
Based off of range, power level, and technology, Starfleet would peel BFG open like the oversized tuna cans they are.
BTW, As to your much vaunted lance shots, Phasers as particle energy weapons would have the lance rule. Thet would just have longer range and more power then the IoMs weapons. In order to understand this you have to look at the base power supplies. This is where the IoM and BFG fall flat on their face.
And no Timmy, we will not reward your tantrums with a your right. That would be re-enforcing negative behaviors.
I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!"
Uh, no. You have so far ignored that FTL combat IS possible, HAS been shown practical and you have yet to come up with an argument against it....
Aaaaand you just automatically lose the argument by putting words in my mouth. I agreed with you and provided about a dozen specific examples from across the series that show that warp speed combat IS indeed possible, and there may be a chance they could attack the Imperial ships with impunity. But then I also stated that this doesn't matter, because the Federation simply doesn't have the ships or firepower to make a dent in the far more vast Imperial fleet before all their little planets are annihilated.
A single max yield torpedo is on par? Even if we make that enormous leap of conjecture, we have examples of Imperial ships receiving similar hits and keeping on ticking. But fine, let's allow you another one of your wild suppositions, and every single torpedo completely annihilates a ship it hits and they have a 100% hitrate. A galaxy-class starship contains 250 torpedoes. Each Federation ship can destroy 250 ships and it still won't make a difference, the Imperium ALWAYS HAS MORE SHIPS. The matter of scale makes this conflict ridiculous.
The Imperium is unable to coordinate their forces? There are massive coordinated crusades going on all the time, the Imperium is simply beset by threats from every angle, and we're assuming a pure IoM vs. Federation conflict. If you want to play that game, then we have to assume the Federation can't focus their meager fleet either, because they are all across the galaxy exploring and it takes them years and years to get back to the site of conflict, while dealing with Borg predations and Romulan/Ferengi/Klingon treachery at every turn.
So I'm just going to ignore your blather from now on, you're obviously somehow very personally invested in this argument, so there's no debating with you.
I don't know if that has been said yet... but what's the actual 'range' of the Star Trek weaponry? A quick google search didn't yield anything conclusive... and someone in this thread said something like 10-20 kilometers? What about the actual range of their teleportation device?
Thanks to Rogue Trader (the rpg), we know the range of most common Lance, Macrobatteries and Teleportarium.
So a couple fun facts:
- Combat in Rogue Trader is measured in Void Unit (VU), 1 VU = 10,000 Kilometers
- Imperium ship DO have the ability to lock on a target and can shoot at target they do not physically see.
- The average range of a Lance is 6 Void Units, long range 12. Average range of a Macrobatterie is 9 void units, long range 18.
- Teleportarium have a range of 5 VU, they ignore shield and can allow you to teleport directly into an enemy ship (even if it has Geller or Void Shield). They are old Archeo-Tech, however, Teleportarium are the cheapest (in power, space and ship point) of all Archeo-Tech, so while not every ship will have one, you can expect a lot to have in a massive fleet. This is an important factor... while Shield stop Star Trek Teleportation, it doesn't stop Imperium Teleportation.
I'm not sure which side this information will help, but there it is.
It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, and the engagement ranges of fleet combat in the Imperium is several times that of the Federation.
Tarkand wrote:I don't know if that has been said yet... but what's the actual 'range' of the Star Trek weaponry? A quick google search didn't yield anything conclusive... and someone in this thread said something like 10-20 kilometers? What about the actual range of their teleportation device?
Thanks to Rogue Trader (the rpg), we know the range of most common Lance, Macrobatteries and Teleportarium.
the range of a Federation photon torpedo was slightly below 300,000 kilometers. (TNG: "The Wounded")
USS Voyager was equipped with type-6 photon torpedoes. These torpedoes had an effective range of approximately 8 million kilometres.
During the 22nd century, standard Earth transporter systems had a range of 10,000 kilometers; however,
by the 24th century, standard transporter systems maximum range was about 40,000 kilometers.
Quoting from stardestroyer.net's analysis on Fed combat range....
Combat range: fleet actions in DS9 uniformly feature engagements at ranges of 5 km or less, just as they do in TNG's Klingon wars or Borg engagements. In "The Die is Cast", Sisko actually orders the Defiant to approach to 500 metres (while taking fire) before shooting at a Jem'Hadar attack ship, presumably due to some disadvantage incurred at longer range. The only long-ranged incidents involve stationary or near-stationary targets.
I believe that will answer questions about Federation combat range. Remember, while the weapons themselves can travel farther than that, there is some reason limiting them to close range combat, and most importantly.....when you look at Federation battle tactics you tend to see a 3 dimensional version of battlelines...battlewalls I guess.
Very well, I concede that I was wrong, and the Federation does possess some form of CIWS capability, although it is not used very often on screen, we can assume we know its existence, and that the Federation would have some chance of shooting down inbound ordnance.
But focusedfire, thank you for reading my OP, and I guess over time...the rules of the engagement here have changed slightly. Yes, I originally wanted to know what would happen to a small fleet of Imperial vessels entering the ST universe, but overtime it has changed into one where we have somehow allowed both factions to take each other on on as close to equal terms. For me, this means that each side is at its peak of military strength while lacking any of their standard enemies to distract them. This means, that the Federation has all the ships it built for the Dominion War and other threats but doesn't have to worry about them. And the Imperium has all the ships it built for all the threats it has, but doesn't have to deal with them. For all intents and purposes, each side has access to full resources. For me, that means the Imperium has the Astronomican and access to their industrial base, and the Federation would be able to try and negotiate alliances with their neighbors.
Although, I fail to understand how I'm stacking the deck.....I always assumed TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were all one chronology. The primary Star Trek chronology that I was using for this debate. I'm not looking at the alternate universes that occured with the new movie, or the mirror universe. However, within the primary chronology we see that later canon superseeds earlier canon. i.e. Phasers are beam weapons, instead of depth charge like weapons.
Thank you for your input on the Emperor. That could be an interesting scene when he reveals himself as the Emperor
Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?
Chris - As has been mentioned a couple of times, the main reason for close range firefights?
In character: because highly agile ships makes firing a limited manouverability (compared to the ships fighting) torpedo at longer range a more than useless exercise.
Out of character: because they look cooler. You keep assuming there "must" be a reason why other than narrative convenience...yet this IS a valid cause!
[same way Gaunt never manages to die...]
It is only enterprise that is alternate universe, and the new film of course.
Omegus - so when you put words in my mouth you didnt lose the argument first? :rolleyes:
I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.
Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?
I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.
Except they have to get through the shields first. Void shields DO, in fact, block physical projectiles. We know this because physical projectiles are a common component in Imperial weapons batteries, which void shields deal with just fine.
They don't block IMPERIAL torpedoes, but there is nothing at all to say that they don't block Federation torpedoes, because as you've pointed out, the two weapons have very few similarities.
Well it wasn't that I was mad I got shot up during a paintball game -.-. Anyway its just stupid we can't all say that we need to have actual evidence to prove this. Like a breakdown of the weapons and armor. And How can they breach the armor. Because Lasers are just flashlights.
Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?
We have assumed they aren't a problem.
Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.
If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.
Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?
We have assumed they aren't a problem.
Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.
If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Omegus - so when you put words in my mouth you didnt lose the argument first? :rolleyes:
I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.
What words did I put in your mouth exactly? Are you saying you don't fall back on the "they have FTL sensors and can zip around messing the IoM up!" argument every two or three posts or so? I never said you said one torpedo would take out an Imperial ship, I was giving your argument the full benefit of the doubt and saying that even if every shot was a kill shot, it still wouldn't make a difference.
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Kilkrazy wrote:
Klawz wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Less shouting please.
Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?
We have assumed they aren't a problem.
Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.
If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.
If we're introducing logistics, then they have to apply to both factions. The Federation's best ships are spread all over the galaxy and have plenty of problems of their own, and the Imperium is able to traverse large distances far more effectively than the Federation. So again, the comparison is one of scale, and the Federation falls woefully short.
I am not "falling back on" - I am setting a solid foundation for a tactic. Yes, zipping around at FTL would work - hence why, IF you notice, I was responding to people who said it wouldnt becauser the ships could be hit/ detected / the IoM ships suddenly forgot they were teratonnage and could magically turn on a dime.
I also never said they coul;dnt mount a major offensive - I was responding to the suggestion that the IoM could somehow arrange to hit in a single DAY
Yeah, okay, whatever. You ignored half a dozen arguments presented by a number of people and just zeroed in on the FTL thing, which at this point is a dead horse.
The IoM could hit every planet in the Federation with a few thousand ships. Even if for some reason they couldn't coordinate their attacks (and nothing in the fluff indicates they can't coordinate fleet actions, quite the contrary), it's not like it's a matter of a few hours for the relatively insignificant Federation fleet to zip from one site of conflict to the next. Warp travel (with a big W) is far faster than warp travel (with a small w). If, like Killionaire, you're going to introduce logistics, all this falls apart. Picard is in perfect position to pull off his little maneuver, when suddenly Q teleports the entire crew onto some random planet to feth with their minds, leaving the ship stranded as the Imperium closes in. Or the Klingons decide they like the warlike Imperium far more than the Federation pussies, and try to curry favor by throwing their lot in with the invaders. Meanwhile, Romulans determine this is the best time to re-try invading Vulkan and finally killing all those pointy-eared bastards. The end.
I view the rules as fair......Each side has access to their full resources without any of their 'traditional' enemies to worry about.
And no, Nosferatu. Out of character reasons for why the Federation fleet engages at such close ranges is NOT a valid reason. Federation commanders do not say 'Hey, let's engage at point blank battles cause it looks good for TV viewers we don't know exist!' No. They use every weapon they have available to them and every tactic they can. You forget, the attacks on the Borg vessel in First Contact and the battles against the Dominion in DS9 are battles for the very future of the Federation. In character, they would NOT do something then just because 'it looks cool'. Narrative convenience is NOT a valid cause in universe. I am looking at Star Trek with complete suspension of disbelief, and if something happens on screen it must have an explanation. If the Federation has the ability to engage their enemies and hundreds of thousands of kilometers, why do they not do so when they're very survival as a state is at risk? Why do they continue to close to 5 km to engage in combat? The only explanation is that they can not engage targets at the maximum range of their weapons.
@ChrisWWII- Pardon me for saying this, but now you are coming across as being intentionally obtuse. (no offense intended)
We are dealing with stories, each written for a different purpose. It is wrong to say that the writing for something intended to be aired on tv(which calls for close proximity staging for dramatic visuals) doesn't noticeably affect how the story is written.
Evey writer that follows will be affected by this story having been represented visually. So, the visual effects most defintely affect the story.
40K has an edge in this regard because the story has never had to be compromised fora cinematic visual representaion. Yes the models probably affect the story but the majority of the game occurs in the mind. I think this may be why established 40K players have a tendency to initially not like newer versions of DoW. Ots because the game doesn't fitt with the mental image that they have of the game and its story.
I'm pretty sure saying that something that occurred in the cannon universe of Star Trek (movie/shows) is not relevant because it discredit your point is some kind of fallacy...
Remember that the purpose of both universe is to entertain. So in both case some decisions are made because 'it'd be cooler this way!'. Arbitrary choosing what is valid or not because of that argument (and mostly influenced by your pov) simply doesn't work.
Obtuse is the name of the game in this thread it seems.
The original Star Trek series had longer ranged combat, and the producers/writers frequently said that they later on moved towards more close encounters because it was more fan-pleasing. As for The Next Generation, them being peaceful diplomats, every episode would basically involve the bad guys getting right up in Picard's face, making some outrageous demands, Picard trying to reason with them, until the whole thing devolves into a short-range firefight.
Regardless, looking at the stated ranges of the weapons from both in the BFG and the Star Trek technical manuals, the Imperial Fleet has the advantage on range.
focusedfire wrote:
We are dealing with stories, each written for a different purpose. It is wrong to say that the writing for something intended to be aired on tv(which calls for close proximity staging for dramatic visuals) doesn't noticeably affect how the story is written.
Evey writer that follows will be affected by this story having been represented visually. So, the visual effects most defintely affect the story.
This is true; but for the purposes of this discussion, we are treating them as if they are NOT stories. That's the whole point.
And that being so, when the Federation routinely engages powerful enemies at very close ranges, there has to be a reason for that; and no, "dramatic effect" is NOT a reason. If Federation ships had the option to stand off 300,000 km away from a Borg cube and obliterate it with super-powered torpedoes, they would do so. The fact that they DON'T do so is an indication that they are unable to, for some reason.
BeRzErKeR wrote:
This is true; but for the purposes of this discussion, we are treating them as if they are NOT stories. That's the whole point.
And that being so, when the Federation routinely engages powerful enemies at very close ranges, there has to be a reason for that; and no, "dramatic effect" is NOT a reason. If Federation ships had the option to stand off 300,000 km away from a Borg cube and obliterate it with super-powered torpedoes, they would do so. The fact that they DON'T do so is an indication that they are unable to, for some reason.
I disagree, the OP's first post indicated that this is a story driven process. To ignore such makes the entire exercise a galactic waste of time.
This being so and because we use stories as our source material then an adjustment has to be made for the biased paradigms currently in place. You do not see those debating the pro Federation side casually dismissing massive sections of the 40K timeline and alternate though established back stories to weaken the IoM's stance. We could demand that this occurs during the Horus Heresy or that this this is set during the early rogue trader timelines wher bolters were S 3 and The Imperium is using all of its military might to hold the empire together.
This is why there has to be a meeting of the minds from both sides as to the ground rules.
focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AndrewC wrote: A 64MT explosion within the hull of an IoM ship will hollow it out. (And SF get a load of rare metals for the next batch of weapons going through the replicators.)
Except we have examples of Imperial ships taking hits in the gigaton range and keep fighting. Really, you are just grasping at straws. And there is no indication the Federation uses replicators to create weapons if something as simple as a hatch requires a stop-over. There's a reason why they build ship docks instead of a huge friggin' replicator and just going "One star ship please, k thx".
You seem to have misread a word, I've bolded it for you.
Andrew
ChrissWWII wrote:
Additionally, we know that the warhead fuel is antideutrium and deutrium. We also know how much energy the reaction of one atom of antideutrium with one atom of deutrium releases. Scaling this up gives us a figure of 64 megatons. There is no way that 1.5 kg of antimatter reacting with 1.5 kg of matter can result in 690 gigatons.
Not to mention, your argument is flawed in that you assume the Federation can preform this activity with enough quantity to defeat the Imperium, but please remember, what is the likelihood that the Romulans would share their cloaking technology? More importantly, does the Federation have the industrial capacity to churn OUT enough cloaking devices and ships to defeat the Imperium? THe answer is no.
But we also know that fission is not possible outside of a star, and the energy requirements to power a lance is also not possible as it is presently know to science. Remember that science once believed that the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth. It does your debate no credit to claim science does not support the SF side of technology while ignoring it for IoM. One has to take the written word regardless of how far fetched it seems. It is a nuance that has been granted to the IoM proponents, but not to SF supporters.
Regarding the flaw, it's not actually a flaw. Nobody knows the industrial capacity of the Federation, so the answer can't be no. The answer is neither of us know, and absence of proof can not be taken as proof. The Federation has proved capable of designing and deploying many different technologies, the phasing cloak being one(TNG), that was designed and built without any input from the Romulans. Sub space mines are another, having a mine materialise anywhere, through anything, is just scary. Cloaking devices are capable of replication(DS9). The genesis device(WroK), remember the complete plans were sent to SF before funding continued, only the research results were destroyed so that the work could not be continued.
Just for the record, IoM is too big for SF to defeat, but then SF is too tough a nut for IoM to defeat, no matter how big the sledgehammer!
Cheers
Andrew
PS I must also say this debate is a much better one than the last time!
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is only enterprise that is alternate universe, and the new film of course.
Has some producer stated that the Enterprise series is in an alternate time line/parallel universe?
Other than episode 18 and 19, it seems more like an origin story for the federation, covering the gap
between first contact and ToS. Episode 18 and 19 of season 4 are of an alternate time line, but other than that
I can't see anything that indicates it's not part of the same time line as ToS, TNG, VOY, DS9.
Sure there are some time travellers messing up the time lines, but like in Star Trek First Contact, Enterprise saves
the day and maintains the time line well enough.
FocusedFire, I apologize if it seems I'm being obtuse. What are your suggestions for a fair and balanced confrontation between the Federation and the Imperium of Man? Additionally, I am looking at both universes with total suspension of disbelief. As such, I view all the ST episodes and 40k canon as historical documents. There is no writer to cause dramatic tension. Finally, I think you misunderstood my op. I don't want this to be story driven, but instead to get a feel for how the battles would play. In all honesty I find the constant technobabble solutions to be rather boring.
AndrewC: Well....besides the fact that we know both fusion and fission are possible outside a star (e.g. atomic and hydrogen bombs), and you are once again missing my point. My point is that the Federation has nicely explained to us how much antimatter they have in their warheads, and we can calculate out from there. The Imperium has never given us the slightest inkling of how their power generation technology works. Only that it does. That means that regardless of what current science says we have to assume that the lance works because we have seen it work. Additionally, on screen detonations of photon torpedoes do not seem to result in 690 gigatons of energy released. Torpedoes instead release much LESS energy than 690 gigatons on screen, and Paramount's canon policy holds that when the screen and the books contradict we must go with what happens on screen. Additionally, as to your industrial output claim I have to point out that at the end of the Dominion War, the Federation, Klingons and Romulans seemed to believe an unconquered or subjugated Cardassia would have the industrial output to threaten all 3 powers. This implies not only that Star Trek empires are almost completely centered on their home planet, but also that the output of even one planets industrial might can be a threat to 3 relatively intact empires, demonsrtating how low the industrial output of those empires must be.
Well lets help clarify things: Been gone a day doing rl family biz and we comeback to where we were when we I first posted so lets rehash and reconfirm.
First lets cement some things here:
Things that are conceded so far:
FTL
From the fact that no one is trying to dispute them or even come close to attempting to dispute them I think it’s a safe bet that again
I.O.M. ftl is superior due to the fact that it can cover distances in a few months that it takes feddies75 year to cross.
Putting to bed some things that are still in doubt to rest.
Ftl Sensors
1 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"
2 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.
3 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor
Again we have a question as to the fact that they only detect the disturbance and nothing more. As you can see in quote 3 we can see that the IOm ships sensor detect the chaos existing the warp again both of these sets of information is at real time input back.
For some collaboration as to the combat FTl we take you to:
4 wrote:
Shadow Point page 175
"Surveryor contact, two AUs to starboard, and closing!
This detection again is being done in the middle of a space battle with ship maneuvering
On the next page if it helps some the IOM vessel’s captain in question does request a visual on this approaching vessels that is 2 AU’s way. This again is a showing of FTL senors.
SLT
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Full impulse is normally quoted 1/2c.
I concede to this argument I have no problem agreeing with this.
As far as the IOM slt,
Okay heres some time for a little math quiz based on the quotes:
From quote 2 and 3 we know that the chaos ships are moving at comabat speed and that it is stated as being .75 c.
But time for a little math excerise.
Xiophen wrote:
s you can see the Iom fleet parked in orbit on arround Hereden detects in real time a chas fleet arriving some 9 aus in distance away thats roughly 74.85 light minutes away or 1,346,380,836.219 km away this again is a real times sensor feed.
1,346,380,836.219 / 93 minutes = 14,477,213.29 km/minute.
14,477,213.29 km/min / 60 seconds = 241286.89 km/s
241286.89 km/s / the speed of light = 299,792.458 km / s
= 0.8 speed of light, 4/5 speed of light
So here is the question do we really want to question 40k speed? Now we have this piece of logic about how Star trek ships will out fight IOM ships again. Oh yeah flirting and zipping arrond them how are they going to do that when again the IOM ships are moving almost half again as fast as your feddie ship is capable of.
This is kind of like a WWII fighter fighting a F4 phantom. Yes your WWII fighter is a somewhat more maneuverable but again the F4 is going to control the combat because even with the wider turning radius it will have made its turn long before theWWII fight can get to the turn location. The same with you IOM Cruiser will have completed its turn and have the fed vessel to front facng before the feddie can get to the location.
Combat ranges:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Uh, no. Max range of a torp at 2268 was 300k km.[conincidentaly a light second] Later torps have higher ranges - the clas 6, in use with VOY, was 8m KM. Please show your "quote" showing a 40k km range - as Ive already put the MA quotes in showing something different.
Also phasers would not attentuate at distancfe, as they are collimated beams - they dont spread. So in theory they have a fairly long range, until hit by something. the"effective" range is the limit at which you can reliably hit something when you have a beam of light moving in a straight line [yes, yes, grav lensing, but effectively straight for what we are concerned with] against ships moving without caring about inertia.
Normal ranges in bfg have every cm being a 1k worth of distance. Most IOM weapons have ranges ranging from 60 – 120 KM
Please post proof of trek ranges, I’m not doing your job and proving the ranges.. What I can find from most of the visuals we see is combat that ranges in at best 1000 km and most visually represeneted battles taking place withn a 1k km to 10k km distance with quoted range of torps being 90k. please provide proof.
FirePower This is again the contensious point we have the Trek cannon numbers here:
Accersitus wrote:
In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual a figure of 1,5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. Furthermore it is not clear if the 1,5 kg should be compared to the 200 isoton figure given on-screen, or the 25 isoton figure given in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.
Thank you for providing the quotes from the trek manual so I didn’t have to go look them up.
For the 40k side we have this:
6 wrote:
Space Hulk rulebook, Scenario book pg.3
Four Gothic-class cruisers- Intolerable, Invincible, and Righteous Force- awaited four parsecs from target. Each ship carried 100 Hellfire nuclear missles. Each missle 122 warheads, each with a firepower of 5 GT. If boarding action fails, nuclear missles will turn a ship to dust."
Again we see the vast magnitude differences between 40k firepower and star trek fire power. Agai n picard maneuver would damage the paint job on an IOM ship. IOm weapons destroy trek ships on impact.
To a 64 megaton torp going off inside a iom ship will cause damage yet but we have 40k cruisers survie torps exploding on the outside and inside. They also repell 40k lances and battery barrages which dish out several tton of damage.
AS for weapomn speed lances are light speed weapons and weapon batteries fire weapons that travel near or at light speed. Not to forget bombardment cannoncs and Nova cannons which fire shells that travel at ¼ the speed of light and cause tton level damage in some 36k km diameters.
Teleportation: In every 40k ship supplement and the bfg it specifically states that inorder to teleport attack an opposing ship their shields must be down this blockage include cron teleporters which areseveral magnitude more reliable and more powerful then trek teleportation.
And again admantium is describe in 40k fluff as being the hardest substance known to the IOm of the 40k it is a suppose to be super dense and hard to survive impacts from weapons that causetriple digit gton and single to double digit tton damage. WE see trek porters fail tme and time again from materials less dense.
Fleet sizes and force dispositions:
Agsin the Iom has a million world the vast majority would be considered modern world Ie woulds that are at the Macrage tech level and pop levels. It has 32k hive world all having hundreds of billions of populations. And an untold number shipyards and forge worlds. Numbers are on the iom side. Iom fleet number is 250k plus. They would only really need a crusade force the size of which they sent against the tau to curpbstomp.
edit:
oh yeah and please show proof of trek fighting at warp speeds not conjector. as it was never seen in TBG, ds9 or voy.
FTL
From the fact that no one is trying to dispute them or even come close to attempting to dispute them I think it’s a safe bet that again
I.O.M. ftl is superior due to the fact that it can cover distances in a few months that it takes feddies75 year to cross.
Not conceded.
By the end of Voyager the Federation has attained transwarp capabilites. The IoM's trip if months instead takes weeks.
Also, IoM warp travel is not that predicatble and is often quoted as taking decades or centuries to move battle fleets acrooss a segmentum.
FTL
From the fact that no one is trying to dispute them or even come close to attempting to dispute them I think it’s a safe bet that again
I.O.M. ftl is superior due to the fact that it can cover distances in a few months that it takes feddies75 year to cross.
Not conceded.
By the end of Voyager the Federation has attained transwarp capabilites. The IoM's trip if months instead takes weeks.
Also, IoM warp travel is not that predicatble and is often quoted as taking decades or centuries to move battle fleets acrooss a segmentum.
Proof please? and why was it not used durng the 2 movies that came after voyager.
xiophen42 wrote:Normal ranges in bfg have every cm being a 1k worth of distance. Most IOM weapons have ranges ranging from 60 – 120 KM
The math as you have posted would have the IoM limited ti ranges of 60-120 kilometers? Need a modifier for the 1cm=1k. One "k" of what? Now I would normally question such short ranges but this is GW where 1"=3' which means they have tanks with an effective range of 216 feet.
xiophen42 wrote:Normal ranges in bfg have every cm being a 1k worth of distance. Most IOM weapons have ranges ranging from 60 – 120 KM
The math as you have posted would have the IoM limited ti ranges of 60-120 kilometers? Need a modifier for the 1cm=1k. One "k" of what? Now I would normally question such short ranges but this is GW where 1"=3' which means they have tanks with an effective range of 216 feet.
okay here help yah some gw stated that 1 cm is equal to 1000 km. Also we have References to weapons having 12,000 km being point blank range with weapon ranges out to 200,000 km.
xiophen42 wrote:
Proof please? and why was it not used durng the 2 movies that came after voyager.
Because the Federation transwarp drive turns you into a lizard man that actually finds Cpt. Janeway attractive. In other words, you go totally insane.
focusedfire wrote:
xiophen42 wrote:Normal ranges in bfg have every cm being a 1k worth of distance. Most IOM weapons have ranges ranging from 60 – 120 KM
The math as you have posted would have the IoM limited ti ranges of 60-120 kilometers? Need a modifier for the 1cm=1k. One "k" of what? Now I would normally question such short ranges but this is GW where 1"=3' which means they have tanks with an effective range of 216 feet.
1k km. So 120,000km is the max range of a lot of the weapons.
Proof please? and why was it not used durng the 2 movies that came after voyager.
Final epodode, Older Janeway time travels back(Yes The federation seems ti have intermitent accesss to time travel whenrvrt it is needed). She configures the ship for Transwarp travel and to destroy one of the borgs transwarp tunnel networks.
As to Why it wasn't used? Maybe because both episodes happened close to earth and there was no need.
FocusedFire: I'm sorry but your claim is incorrect. The future Janeway gave Voyager ablative armor, and some kind of anti-Borg weapon. She does not give Voyager a transwarp drive. Instead, Voyager travels through the Borg transwarp hub system in order to get to Earth quicker. Yes, at one point Voyager did gain access to a transwarp drive, but they lacked the ability to properly navigate transwarp space, and the ship nearly crashed.
Additionally, the time travel technology used in Endgame was not Federation technology, but Borg.
Proof please? and why was it not used durng the 2 movies that came after voyager.
Final epodode, Older Janeway time travels back(Yes The federation seems ti have intermitent accesss to time travel whenrvrt it is needed). She configures the ship for Transwarp travel and to destroy one of the borgs transwarp tunnel networks.
As to Why it wasn't used? Maybe because both episodes happened close to earth and there was no need.
Problem I have as I recall we see the transwarp network get destroyed by voyager at the end of the episode. very little indication that it was something theycould recover. so agani proof would be need to show they recovered the technology.
@ChrisWWII-I bow to your knowledge. I haven't seen an episode since the show ended.
I will posit that the Fedrations scanner and replicators make the federation a close second to the Borg as far as adaptability. Wheb Tech is introduced to the fed they mass produce it rapidly.
I do believe that future Janeway makes mention of the Federation achieving transwarp in that episode. I can't remember if she gave them a leg up on that tech but it think it was hinted upon....
Blast, now I'm gonna have to dig up a copy and actually re-watch it. Well, Jerry Ryan was in her prime back then.
xiophen42 wrote:
Proof please? and why was it not used durng the 2 movies that came after voyager.
Because the Federation transwarp drive turns you into a lizard man that actually finds Cpt. Janeway attractive. In other words, you go totally insane.
focusedfire wrote:
xiophen42 wrote:Normal ranges in bfg have every cm being a 1k worth of distance. Most IOM weapons have ranges ranging from 60 – 120 KM
The math as you have posted would have the IoM limited ti ranges of 60-120 kilometers? Need a modifier for the 1cm=1k. One "k" of what? Now I would normally question such short ranges but this is GW where 1"=3' which means they have tanks with an effective range of 216 feet.
1k km. So 120,000km is the max range of a lot of the weapons.
Roughly thier are some quotes thatt show longer ranges extending out to 200km will have ti find them.
focusedfire, there use to be a guy who had all of voyager uploaded on youtube. Iono if he's still around, but if he is you should be able to watch it in pretty nice quality. But yeah.....I'm a bit of a nerd with a memory that can recall exact quotes from shows and books, but can't memorize basic equations. x_X
Yeah, the Federation would be able to analyze Imperial tech fairly quickly, and potentially build working models of some....but I doubt they'd be able to train all their crews in the use of the technology before we see Guardsmen raising the Aquila over San Francisco.
Hehehehe.....I could totally imagine the Imperium and the first Federation vessel they encounter.
Captain: This is the Federation starship.....
Imperium: XENOS LOVERS! HERETICS! BURN IN THE EMPEROR'S LIGHT!
Captain: What the.... =boom=
Edit: Found it! Not the same guy, but eh... close enough.
ChrisWWII wrote:
Captain: This is the Federation starship.....
Imperium: XENOS LOVERS! HERETICS! BURN IN THE EMPEROR'S LIGHT!
Captain: What the.... =boom=
Ah, I love the smell of the righteous justice of the Emperor's Hammer in the morning.
TBH Im suprised this thread hasn't been locked by the Mods. There is some good convo and debate going on and all, but really, the same points have been brought up by both sides at least several times....several dozen that is. Mayhap this thread can be shut down and we can all get back to our regular, warhammer loving selves.
Gorgarak, I think we've managed to bring up new points as of late.....but I have to agree with you that we've got a lot of rehash going on right now.
Omegus: I almost wonder....it could be totally possible that the Federation sits a few thousand years before the Imperium. I wonder whatever became of the planets our old ST friends lived on.....Exterminatus practice?
Xiophen - the ranges have been provided for you in this thread about 8 times now. Find them.
300k km range for old 2268 torps, mark 6s have an 8m km range. Comfortably outranging the IoM.
As for engagements inside that? Already explained 5 or 6 times: when you have massively manouverable ships, your limited range and fuel projectile has a shorter effective range. And we know that while their TOP speed is higher you have so far stated NOTHING that shows your ships are more manouverable
Secondly - yields. I notice you ignore the part which states, canon, the yield is 690gigtaons?
Thirdly - speeds. Yes, Omegus, I will raise the FtL flag again - because it is relevant and because xiphus seems fit to ignore it. Xiophus - answer why they would drop to sub-c? ANswer: they wouldnt.
And guess wha t- we HAVE provided canon exampls of FtL battles. Do the posters the courtesy of, I dont know, maybe reading the earlier posts? It isnt "doing our work" when we have already done it...
FOurthly - as for my "math" sucking, well yours is worse. You have calculated how fast something would have to travel to cover the distance, but have ignored three crucial factors.
1) You have forgotten that there were 2 fleets involved, one closing on the other at .75c. So immediately you have a "halved" range - 48m km - at which they would meet assuming both are travelling at .75c to begin with. The reality is the closing point would NOT be the half way point, as they are only moving orbital veloicty to begin with.
2) You have calculated an average, not an upper bound. An average of .8c (which I have already demonstrated to be incorrect) requires you to be maintaining more than 0.9c a tthe end; unless you are supposing instantaneous acceleration?
3) Closing speeds are a difficult thing to calculate, as 2 fleets closing at .75c have a closing speed of 1c...and never any more. Good luck calculating that one
(although you dont get significant "c" effects until over 0.9c, so you should be fine with good old Newtonian mathematics until then.
Before professing others inabilty so loudly, perhaps being correct yourself would be a good idea.
ChrisWWII - what is GW policy regarding canon? They dont have one. So to be fair to both sides Paramounts entirely biased opinion is of *no relevance* to this discussion.
Otherwise only "on screen" canon can be used on boith sides - meaning IoM is a little screwed, no?
THusly I refute that you can "ignore" the story element - TV and books are a very different medium; which is why you dont get many long car chases in books! I can bet you that a film version of BFG would suddenly have them closing to point blank range, if only to make the relative speed changes seem more dramatic.
Enterprise being non-main timeline: both "B" in charge of the series stated they took advantage of the canonical changes to the timeline (riker et al appearing in the statues, both in the book version of the first warp flight and the film First Contact) to accelerate tech used in Enterprise - for example they had hand phasers, when canon these were part tested by Kirk before he became Captain. In addition there was no 100yr hiatus before we were "allowed" fast Warp travel in the main timeline, but this was possibly due to the film changing the dates for warpflight - from 2161 to 2060, to make it seem closer to home at a guess
This was partly done because, in order to be believable on screen, the technology had to lok advanced from our time - which a pre-TOS-based-tech series, if you extrapolated back, would no have done.
Transwarp - it seems we are still reliant on Borg coils / chroniton fields to avoid the "temporal stress"and the core shock from tachyon feedback, however given enough incentive (and there would be definite incentive!) I can see research being accelerated - according to canon transwarp has been worked on since Cochranes time!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Damn - forgot the sensors.
Just because they state something happens at 2AU does not mean it was receieved immediately. FOr example we have radar that can detect objects at 2 AU away, and any report we gave would "look" exactly the same as that report.
Until you find something indicating this real space sensing is faster than light (apart from psyker noting the entry of a fleet - and chaos fleets "look" substantially different when they enter - a lack of geller fields meaning the rift distortion is less, for a start ) you are assumed to have c-class sensors.
ChrisWWII wrote:AndrewC: Well....besides the fact that we know both fusion and fission are possible outside a star (e.g. atomic and hydrogen bombs), and you are once again missing my point. My point is that the Federation has nicely explained to us how much antimatter they have in their warheads, and we can calculate out from there. The Imperium has never given us the slightest inkling of how their power generation technology works. Only that it does. That means that regardless of what current science says we have to assume that the lance works because we have seen it work. Additionally, on screen detonations of photon torpedoes do not seem to result in 690 gigatons of energy released. Torpedoes instead release much LESS energy than 690 gigatons on screen, and Paramount's canon policy holds that when the screen and the books contradict we must go with what happens on screen.
Serves me right for posting when tired. Thank you for pointing it out to me, it was a mistake but not a deliberate one
The problem with fission and fusion in the 'star sense' is that we cannot harness such a source as energy at the present moment because we cannot build such a containment vessel. As you say lances and such work because the rules say they work, and are powered by fusion reactors. No explanation is required. So we can just as well apply the exact same to Federation torpedos. Photons are powered by 1.5kg antimatter and explode at 690GT. No further explanation is required.
Canon, can someone please enlighten me on this. Does not GW Canon policy only accept what is printed in their rules books and supplements? I thought the entire BL was non canon? in the sense that Rules>Fiction?
Additionally, as to your industrial output claim I have to point out that at the end of the Dominion War, the Federation, Klingons and Romulans seemed to believe an unconquered or subjugated Cardassia would have the industrial output to threaten all 3 powers. This implies not only that Star Trek empires are almost completely centered on their home planet, but also that the output of even one planets industrial might can be a threat to 3 relatively intact empires, demonsrtating how low the industrial output of those empires must be.
It is an implication that was never outright stated, so that is as much a conjecture as mine.
Cheers
Andrew
As an aside, if .75c is the cruising/combat speed of a IoM ship, that means that the turn length on BFG is 1/10th of a second
xiophen42. A 64MT explosion going off inside a IoM ship will destroy everything inside the armoured hull. What normally keeps the explosion outside, in this case, is keeping it inside. As a reference I can't help but remember the Italian Policeman who held a flashbang in his hand during a protest, by keeping his hand wrapped round it, it blew his entire hand apart, whereas had he only held it on his hand he would have probably only burnt himself.
Andrew - I'm not sure tehre was ever any "official" policy on canon, as the codexes / rulebooks change on a regular basis (and you can easily have books in production that differ on fluff, e.g. the daemons books seems to rewrite the chaos marine fluff in places) so trying to argue those as "canon" is a little tricky!
ASsuming you allow non-BFG (i.e. novels) into this debate means you both *have* to consider the narrative imperative differences between tabletop and novel based story telling and TV/Film, and the biased assumption of only TV/Film == canon is removed.
focusedfire wrote:@ChrissWWII- I don't hate Roddenberry.
I hate the politically correct thing that next generation became. Its PC, super socialist theme, and complete lack of anything resembling testosterone outside of Ryker annoys the heck out of me. I'll still watch it for some of the Q episodes and the Klingon Civil War. Both were good stories that didn't paint the screen socialist pink. Outside of those I'll watch Kirk, new or old.
I like the original the best of the series and I like the Wrath of Khan best of the old stuff. The New Trek Movie I loved.
Yep. Also liked DS9 because it was dark and reintroduced some fundamental human emotions (via the Klingons of course but oh well).
nosferatu1001 wrote:Andrew - I'm not sure tehre was ever any "official" policy on canon, as the codexes / rulebooks change on a regular basis (and you can easily have books in production that differ on fluff, e.g. the daemons books seems to rewrite the chaos marine fluff in places) so trying to argue those as "canon" is a little tricky!
ASsuming you allow non-BFG (i.e. novels) into this debate means you both *have* to consider the narrative imperative differences between tabletop and novel based story telling and TV/Film, and the biased assumption of only TV/Film == canon is removed.
Actually you could say I would argue the opposite. BL Novels are therfor implicitly not canon as they as subject to immediate rewrite by GW at any time. Lets say that GW decide that IoM now use reactionless thrusters instead of the current reaction thrusters. That would mean that all novels are wrong. Ergo can not be used.
BFG does not claim direct hits are made when inflicting damage. As you have pointed out BFG uses broadsides of various weapons to produce an area of effect bracketing their target in the hope of catching them in it. No mention of a direct hit, same with missiles, whereas SF has the opposite aim of direct hits. Quality over quantity.
Just because they state something happens at 2AU does not mean it was receieved immediately. FOr example we have radar that can detect objects at 2 AU away, and any report we gave would "look" exactly the same as that report.
Until you find something indicating this real space sensing is faster than light (apart from psyker noting the entry of a fleet - and chaos fleets "look" substantially different when they enter - a lack of geller fields meaning the rift distortion is less, for a start ) you are assumed to have c-class sensors.
Why are sensors assumed to be light-speed? My assumption would be exactly the opposite; I would assume that all highly advanced space-faring empires with FTL travel capacity also have FTL sensor capacity.
Also, no, I don't think any report we gave from radar would look like that report. For one thing, the level of detail is, IMO, too high to be dependent on the kind of detection equipment we have now.
For another thing, instantaneous sensors are actually required for effective space combat on the scale BFG and BL novels show.
A light-speed return on an object two AUs away would be subject to a delay of 499 seconds. In those 499 seconds, the ships that were detected, moving at .75 c, will move 0.74 AUs, or more than a third of the distance between the two fleets. They'll be sending off more returns as they close in, which returns will almost certainly overlap with each other and give the impression that the attacking vessels are moving at an unpredictable but much faster speed. See the problem?
Also, if Imperial ships were equipped only with light-speed sensors, they could never bring their weapons to bear.
Remember, Imperial ships engage at ranges up to 120,000 km, which is nearly half a light-second, and occasionally up to 200,000 km, which is almost a whole light-second. If equipped with light-speed sensors, they cannot actually ever target an enemy ship, because they are never seeing where it is, only where it was a second ago. With ships moving at .75 c, that's not good enough.
The Imperium HAS to have FTL sensors, because they fight at such ranges and such speed that it's flatly impossible without them. If the Imperium didn't have light-speed sensors, Chaos tactics would be easy. Accelerate to something close to light-speed, blow past the Imperial fleet too fast for them to engage you, nuke planet. Rinse, repeat.
But they don't do that, and the only thing that could stop it is sensors that are good enough and ships that are fast enough to intercept in force and accurately shoot down enemy ships unless they turn to engage.
1) Their mode of FTL travel isnt actually "FTL"per se - they drop into another dimension where either the distance map to our universe is ssmaller OR intrinsic velocity is much higher, therefore dont find a way around the "c" speed limit of our universe
2) Their modes of communication are not FTL - as again they exploit the Warp*
While trek ships also fall foul of (1), in that they cheat by compressing space/time and not by moving any faster, they DO have FTL comms and DO have FTL sensors - subspace, which is ddescribed as a dimension of normal space.
You dont think our radar equipment, which can spot and accurately plot the course of a supersonic missile (see type-45 destroyers) in time to intercept it (over horizon time means <10 seconds warning) would struggle to accurately plot the speed and course of a 10km ship radiating MASSIVE amounts of energy? Really?
Instantaneous sensors are NOT required for that level of space conflict - have a look at the Praxis novels for some very good examples of space battels with many ships all conducted using light speed sensors, all using current physics - you have many ways to gain data.
You have already quoted that the ranges are up to 100k km effective - or a 1/3rd of a second light delay. You can easily compensate for this, mainly because *gasp* the ships do not have Interia supression meaning they cannot change their relative positions with ease - their absolute veloicities are known. SO you do what is shown in BFG - you bracket the ships possible flight cone with ordnance. This is backed up in the fluff - why do you think broadsides are so popular a tactic?
Your "problem" is false - the doppler effect tells you how fast the ships are moving, you can plot their course quite easily....
And finally: because the assumption is the simplest, using Occams razor. They have no written method of FTL sensors (find fluff *stating* otherwise) therefore they do not.
*Brotherhood of Snake and other novels where they mention "emergency" signals which are sent out when no astropath is present - they are described as taking years to get to nearby systems. So, thatd be radio then, good old plain radio...if they had sensors (which you can necessarily modulate to communicate with, this is a byproduct of the tech) that operated at FTL speeds without the aid of a Apath dont you think they would be in use?
@andrewC the same 64 mton torps usually dont kill bird of presy ships the size of 40k bombers. it usually takes 2 torps to kill a bird of prey with 3 or 4 for a galaxy sized ship.
Now a escort destroyer or frigate is signifactly larger then either a bird of prey or a galaxy class. a cruiser is 3-5km long being composed of that same admantite weighing millions of tons to billions of tons. These same cruisers have survived taking 40k torps exploding inside them and still kept fighting but are gutted by a 64 megaton blast that cant even destroy a vird of prey?
As for Cannon Gw offical wording on cannon is anything and everything writen in the fluff context is cannon period nothing has ever been or will be retcon. As 40k galaxy is a big place and differrent discriptions of event may come from different observers.
Thus all 12 of the GEOM V Horus throw down descriptions are equally valid. The Horus heresay black library books gaunt ghosts etc are as valid as the fluff snipets from rt tim to 2nd, 3rd, 4th or the current 5th.
@ Nosferatu1001
Your stating that a torp is 690 gton of damage means abosolutly nothing, Your stating 300km range of a torp means nothing, Your assumptions about what 40k does and does not have means nothing in this debate beyond it being your own assumption.
In the same Instance I can say a space marine can fly from one end of the galaxy to the next in the blink of an eye can survive a trip through an event horizon and his farts blow up stars. That does not make it accurate.
You need to post proof dialog/clips etc that show thye have 690 gton torps, that they have such ranges, that they fight at warp speed. From the battles we have seen they do not fight at warp speed I can post a dozen clips showing that. the trek Cannon manual states yeilds of 64 megaton. you have to disprove that.
For the 40k quote I have show proof of the ftl sensors just because you do not beleive they exist again means nothing with out the proof see above showing that those are wrong.
Other wise your aregument are your oppinion and not fact and in truth mean nothing when it comes to the burden of proof thats required in this type of debate.
1. IoM weapons are stupendously powerful. There are lots of them. UFP weapons are irrelavent to the discussion since...
2. IoM ships have magic shields with unknown absorptive properties which may, or may not stop projectiles as they are known to both admit AND repel projectiles and fighers. I also have magic armor of unknown defensive properties which may, or may not compose up to 10% of the ship's volume.
3. The UFP may not use any abilities that weren't shown in the show. And by that, I mean if it wasn't shown in ToS, TNG or DS9, it can't be used as VOY's figures are "clearly skewed un unrealistic". Technical manuals and paperback fiction are considered non-canon. Adapting new solutions through synthesis of canon technolgy is inadmissable. Expansion of existing solutions is disallowed due to "logistical issues". Superweapons / devices present in canon are inadmissable due to treaty requirements or the "one-off" aspect of the device. The IoM on the other hand, is assumed to have no logistical problems and can easily mobilize and combine system level fleets, are considered to have reliable FTL and communications, infinite supply train, and manpower who's singularity of purpose is unfettered by politics, religions dogma, bureaucracy or infighting. In-game materials for IoM are not considered canon due to "simplification" of power levels - and are as such inadmissable. Figures from the accompanying paperback fiction are considered the most hyperbole-free and accurate.
While the UFP may have never stood a chance, the playing field appears ridiculously slanted.
keessuz show the proof to support the assumption thats how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
so far the only thing we have for trek is alot os I thinks with no evidence to support the i thinks. show the visual evidence or dialog that over rules the TNG, D9 and Voyager manuels that stae 64 megatons.
xiophen42 wrote:@andrewC the same 64 mton torps usually dont kill bird of presy ships the size of 40k bombers. it usually takes 2 torps to kill a bird of prey with 3 or 4 for a galaxy sized ship.
Now a escort destroyer or frigate is signifactly larger then either a bird of prey or a galaxy class. a cruiser is 3-5km long being composed of that same admantite weighing millions of tons to billions of tons. These same cruisers have survived taking 40k torps exploding inside them and still kept fighting but are gutted by a 64 megaton blast that cant even destroy a vird of prey?
As for Cannon Gw offical wording on cannon is anything and everything writen in the fluff context is cannon period nothing has ever been or will be retcon. As 40k galaxy is a big place and differrent discriptions of event may come from different observers.
Thus all 12 of the GEOM V Horus throw down descriptions are equally valid. The Horus heresay black library books gaunt ghosts etc are as valid as the fluff snipets from rt tim to 2nd, 3rd, 4th or the current 5th.
@ Nosferatu1001
Your stating that a torp is 690 gton of damage means abosolutly nothing, Your stating 300km range of a torp means nothing, Your assumptions about what 40k does and does not have means nothing in this debate beyond it being your own assumption.
In the same Instance I can say a space marine can fly from one end of the galaxy to the next in the blink of an eye can survive a trip through an event horizon and his farts blow up stars. That does not make it accurate.
You need to post proof dialog/clips etc that show thye have 690 gton torps, that they have such ranges, that they fight at warp speed. From the battles we have seen they do not fight at warp speed I can post a dozen clips showing that. the trek Cannon manual states yeilds of 64 megaton. you have to disprove that.
For the 40k quote I have show proof of the ftl sensors just because you do not beleive they exist again means nothing with out the proof see above showing that those are wrong.
Other wise your aregument are your oppinion and not fact and in truth mean nothing when it comes to the burden of proof thats required in this type of debate.
Hmmm...
A 64MT blast within an enclosed environment, with no entrance or exit holes will be concentrated along the axis of least resistance, in this case internal bulkheads. All the blast will be concentrated in this manner whereas anything penetrating the hull will have a handy blowout valve back through the hull. As an aside, there is no offical statement that a Class 6 Photon Torp has a yield of 64mt, that is an extrapolation from outside canon.
Could you provide a link to official GW canon policy? As for nothing ever being retconned, I wouldn't be surprised because it was never accepted as being official in the first place. And timelines have been retconned numerous times so far, a search of this forum would show some of the headscratching over the recent IG book.
xiophen42 wrote:keessuz show the proof to support the assumption thats how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
Oh - That's not the issue. The main issue is which materials one chooses to alow as admissable. In my opinion, between the rulebooks, comics and novel series, great liberties have been taken by the writers in terms of firepower, durability and size of the Imperium's equipment.
Example: The fiction indicates that a Thunderbolt can sustain multiple lascannon HITS without being destroyed. On the other hand, as an AV10 flier with no structure points, it would be lucky to survive more than one. It also begs the question why the Imperium would use AUTOCANNONS on their main AA tanks when LASCANNONS are so ineffective.
Example: A single lance strike is considered have "continent destroying power". By continent destroying, does that mean "vaporizing x tons of rock" or does it mean "render uninhabitable"? What size continent? Let's not even talk about the puny blast that counts as a lance strike in the 40k game. Even the "apocalypse" lance strike is positievely puny in comparison to what everyone is considering canon. This also causes problems as a lot of 40k durability is back-calculated from how many attacks the defender can sustain.
Example: Imperial capital ships seem to slide around the 5-15km range for length. Its possible that they are detailing different classes, but this is a noted problem.
I would like to see the durability of Adamantium and Void Shields quantified however. Most arguements for the former end with "It's really dense and thick." where as the arguements for the latter usually doesn't go beyond "but it can't get past the void shields".
Nosferatu: At my last check, I think GW's canon policy is that anything they or one of their affiliates (e.g. Forge World, Black Library) publishes counts as canon.
Additionally, you can not simply disregard the opinion of Paramount when it comes to canon either. The parent organization is the organization that decides what is truly part of their universe, and what is not. If you ignore the standard canon practices, the very definition of what is Star Trek, and what is not is lost. Since none of us would likely be able to agree on a canon policy that is fair, we must instead rely on what Paramount's policy is when it comes to canon. If we can not all agree to one standard canon policy for both universes, there is no point to this debate.
And even if you do not support the canon policy, you have to view it from a completely in universe perspective. You can not say the writers did something for dramatic tension because as far as the people within that universe are concerned, there ARE no writers. There is only them, their beliefs and an enemy trying to destroy everything they cherish. I doubt they would sacrifice tactical efficiency for dramatic tension.
Finally, your point that the maneuverability of Star Trek ships is what causes fleet engagements to occur at such close ranges? I point out nearly every single fleet battle that occurs in DS9. Even when the Dominion and Cardassian ships are practically standing still in their formation, Federation vessels close in to near point blank ranger before opening fire. If the problem with firing from extreme range in ST fleet combat is the maneuverability of your opponent, why did the Federation not fire at the massed Dominion and Cardassian ships from far away? Why did the fleet in First Contact not fire on the Borg cube from a distance away? A Borg cube isn't exactly a very manuverable or difficult target, but Starfleet closed to point blank before firing nonetheless. This implies that they simply can not engage in combat for some reason at long range, and will be forced to close to ~5 km before opening fire.
Edit: keezus, i do believe GW has stated that the rules for 40k have been modified so that all the game's factions are roughly equal. In essence, the rules aren't canon, but all the fluff is.
xiophen42 wrote:keessuz show the proof to support the assumption thats how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
Oh - That's not the issue. The main issue is which materials one chooses to alow as admissable. In my opinion, between the rulebooks, comics and novel series, great liberties have been taken by the writers in terms of firepower, durability and size of the Imperium's equipment.
Example: The fiction indicates that a Thunderbolt can sustain multiple lascannon HITS without being destroyed. On the other hand, as an AV10 flier with no structure points, it would be lucky to survive more than one. It also begs the question why the Imperium would use AUTOCANNONS on their main AA tanks when LASCANNONS are so ineffective.
Example: A single lance strike is considered have "continent destroying power". By continent destroying, does that mean "vaporizing x tons of rock" or does it mean "render uninhabitable"? What size continent? Let's not even talk about the puny blast that counts as a lance strike in the 40k game. Even the "apocalypse" lance strike is positievely puny in comparison to what everyone is considering canon. This also causes problems as a lot of 40k durability is back-calculated from how many attacks the defender can sustain.
Example: Imperial capital ships seem to slide around the 5-15km range for length. Its possible that they are detailing different classes, but this is a noted problem.
I would like to see the durability of Adamantium and Void Shields quantified however. Most arguements for the former end with "It's really dense and thick." where as the arguements for the latter usually doesn't go beyond "but it can't get past the void shields".
for these its best to note use direct rules quotes as the games rules are desinged to be fair for everyone. Normally rfluff pieces from any of the above that you meantioned is fine. which I why my quotes only referenced direct material from a book or a fluff piece from a rule book. As far as it goes again Gw states any and all of the fluff details *not rules* are cannon Rules ie the av 10 does not really work as its written to make game fair when in truth thunderbolt is much more demonstratable.
As far as the quotes go BL books normally give good descriptions. a given example from Executioner Hour we have the bombarment cannon being escribed as shooting magma bombs at 14 the speed of light. when you cross reference that the magma bombs barrel is 50m in hieght provided from Warriors of Ultimar you can extrabilate the power of the direct impact from the magma bomb which then describes its raidial blast radius as destroying several chaos raiders wighing the the 100,00 of thousands of tons.
Or the description of the Caves of Ice bomardment where we know that the ice is 4Km in depenth and they have to punch through 4 km of bedrock then destroy a cron base. and that the wepaons used can destroy a continnet but more inportantly wipe out all life from the planet for generations. that can be equated. Ill post links to a site where someone broke down alot of 40k material to get power levels.
And of course we have the perverbial space hulk quote with the 610 gton torp. You can extrapolate alot from the quote as torps are considered some of the weaker weaopons and the armor survives imopacts with multiple torps from fluff description of battles.
from that we get an idea of armor strength as well as sheild strength so on and so forth. For trek their cannon is any of their technical manuals and thier tv shows and movies. the Eu from what i understand is not cannon.
Andrew C: I understand and all the problem being as I meantioned we have visual evidence that trekships can survive normal torps hit un shielded. I'll dig up the quote detailing the example where we have the 40k torp exploding inside the armor belt and still fighting. I agree with you that a hell of an explosion done inside an enclosed space.
Ill try to find the quote for the cannon policy again when Im home not at work.
You should indeed use BFG rules and fluff withint the BFG game codex as a start. BFG rules aren't nearly as mamby pamby as 40K.
Else you have to throw out the TV series portion s that are wanky, like all battles occurring in a bathtub sized space, which is done for visual effect.
keezus wrote:C'mon guys... the IoM defense seems to rest upon:
1. IoM weapons are stupendously powerful. There are lots of them. UFP weapons are irrelavent to the discussion since...
2. IoM ships have magic shields with unknown absorptive properties which may, or may not stop projectiles as they are known to both admit AND repel projectiles and fighers. I also have magic armor of unknown defensive properties which may, or may not compose up to 10% of the ship's volume.
3. The UFP may not use any abilities that weren't shown in the show. And by that, I mean if it wasn't shown in ToS, TNG or DS9, it can't be used as VOY's figures are "clearly skewed un unrealistic". Technical manuals and paperback fiction are considered non-canon. Adapting new solutions through synthesis of canon technolgy is inadmissable. Expansion of existing solutions is disallowed due to "logistical issues". Superweapons / devices present in canon are inadmissable due to treaty requirements or the "one-off" aspect of the device. The IoM on the other hand, is assumed to have no logistical problems and can easily mobilize and combine system level fleets, are considered to have reliable FTL and communications, infinite supply train, and manpower who's singularity of purpose is unfettered by politics, religions dogma, bureaucracy or infighting. In-game materials for IoM are not considered canon due to "simplification" of power levels - and are as such inadmissable. Figures from the accompanying paperback fiction are considered the most hyperbole-free and accurate.
While the UFP may have never stood a chance, the playing field appears ridiculously slanted.
Q... F... T... !!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xiophen42 wrote:keessuz show the proof to support the assumption that's how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
so far the only thing we have forIoM is a lot of I thinks with no evidence to support the i thinks.
And the thread degenerates into more "LALALALAL FTL LALALALAL FTL YOU CANT TOUCH ME LALALALALA". Several orders of magnitude more ships, resources and manpower trump this little limerick, so you can raise the flag all you want but no one cares.
keezus wrote:C'mon guys... the IoM defense seems to rest upon:
1. IoM weapons are stupendously powerful. There are lots of them. UFP weapons are irrelavent to the discussion since...
2. IoM ships have magic shields with unknown absorptive properties which may, or may not stop projectiles as they are known to both admit AND repel projectiles and fighers. I also have magic armor of unknown defensive properties which may, or may not compose up to 10% of the ship's volume.
3. The UFP may not use any abilities that weren't shown in the show. And by that, I mean if it wasn't shown in ToS, TNG or DS9, it can't be used as VOY's figures are "clearly skewed un unrealistic". Technical manuals and paperback fiction are considered non-canon. Adapting new solutions through synthesis of canon technolgy is inadmissable. Expansion of existing solutions is disallowed due to "logistical issues". Superweapons / devices present in canon are inadmissable due to treaty requirements or the "one-off" aspect of the device. The IoM on the other hand, is assumed to have no logistical problems and can easily mobilize and combine system level fleets, are considered to have reliable FTL and communications, infinite supply train, and manpower who's singularity of purpose is unfettered by politics, religions dogma, bureaucracy or infighting. In-game materials for IoM are not considered canon due to "simplification" of power levels - and are as such inadmissable. Figures from the accompanying paperback fiction are considered the most hyperbole-free and accurate.
While the UFP may have never stood a chance, the playing field appears ridiculously slanted.
Q... F... T... !!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xiophen42 wrote:keessuz show the proof to support the assumption that's how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
so far the only thing we have forIoM is a lot of I thinks with no evidence to support the i thinks.
Fixed that for you buddy
This would have been so funny and so work if it had been true dude. Go read my posts you will see a wealth of quotes that actually display detailed infromation about all the subjects thats been discussed so far. How about you try again and actually contribute something to the conversation instead of being a troll.
Again for the Trek stuff Im more then willing to discuss improvements if you can provide some proof to support your assumptions. other wise dont make my space marine fart in your direction I wouldn't want to destroy the sun.
keezus wrote:C'mon guys... the IoM defense seems to rest upon:
1. IoM weapons are stupendously powerful. There are lots of them. UFP weapons are irrelavent to the discussion since...
2. IoM ships have magic shields with unknown absorptive properties which may, or may not stop projectiles as they are known to both admit AND repel projectiles and fighers. I also have magic armor of unknown defensive properties which may, or may not compose up to 10% of the ship's volume.
3. The UFP may not use any abilities that weren't shown in the show. And by that, I mean if it wasn't shown in ToS, TNG or DS9, it can't be used as VOY's figures are "clearly skewed un unrealistic". Technical manuals and paperback fiction are considered non-canon. Adapting new solutions through synthesis of canon technolgy is inadmissable. Expansion of existing solutions is disallowed due to "logistical issues". Superweapons / devices present in canon are inadmissable due to treaty requirements or the "one-off" aspect of the device. The IoM on the other hand, is assumed to have no logistical problems and can easily mobilize and combine system level fleets, are considered to have reliable FTL and communications, infinite supply train, and manpower who's singularity of purpose is unfettered by politics, religions dogma, bureaucracy or infighting. In-game materials for IoM are not considered canon due to "simplification" of power levels - and are as such inadmissable. Figures from the accompanying paperback fiction are considered the most hyperbole-free and accurate.
While the UFP may have never stood a chance, the playing field appears ridiculously slanted.
Q... F... T... !!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xiophen42 wrote:keessuz show the proof to support the assumption that's how debates work. I can post several quotes showing 40k durability and firepower. Ive show quotes for everything else including firepower.
so far the only thing we have forIoM is a lot of I thinks with no evidence to support the i thinks.
Fixed that for you buddy
In both threads you have been aggresive and demeaning without providing proof of your own.
You know, I just re-read the OP, and much to my chagrin (and equal amount of amusement), I've realized the last 16 pages are all off-topic drivel.
ChrisWWII wrote:
What I was more interested in is discussion over how the Imperium would react to finding their ancient brethren. Right now, I'm thinking the fact that the Feds concert with filthy Xenos would be enough reason for the Imps to declare them heretics and purge the entire organization in the name of the God-Emperor, but of course....I could be wrong. What does dakka think?
And also, I can't resist asking this.....I almost think it's a tradition for people writing 40k crossover fanfic, but.....which Trek characters have the potential to be the God-Emperor of Mankind Himself?
I think whether the Imperium falls back on the whole "EXTERMINATE THE XENOS" mode would depend on the pragmatism of the ship captain in charge, as well as the size of the Imperial fleet that got warp-shot into the past, and the size of the Federation fleet they encounter. They could well mistake the sleek Federation ships for some Eldar nonsense and just open fire. Of course, if it's a typical Trek encounter with just one Federation ship, the conversation would go something like the brief exchange you posted a little while ago.
"IDENTIFY YOURSELF AND SUBMIT TO THE LIGHT OF THE EMPEROR!"
"Emperor? You must be mistaken, this is the USS Enterprise of the ..."
"FIRE ALL LANCE BATTERIES! PURGE THE HERETIC, THE XENOS, AND THE MUTANT!"
"*blargh*"
In case of just one or two Imperial ships coming across said Federation vessel, and they are damaged by the trip, they may well play along until they can enact repairs and gauge the enemy's strengths and weaknesses.
As for who would be God Emperor, I'm not sure. Wesley? If I had to pick one of the captains, it'd be Picard, the consummate officer. Q would make a good Cegorach.
xiophen42 wrote:And of course we have the perverbial space hulk quote with the 610 gton torp. You can extrapolate alot from the quote as torps are considered some of the weaker weaopons and the armor survives imopacts with multiple torps from fluff description of battles.
Therein lies my main contention that there is not enough information to quantify how durable IoM armour is. What is multiple torpedoes? What is "survives"?
There's a Chinese proverb where in an arms merchant is trying to sell weapons. He first touts his spear as the best spear there is, capable of piercing any armor. When there are no buyers, he turns around and touts his shield as being inpenetrable. A shrewd customer suggests using his spear on his shield to verify the claims. The issue I'm having with all the IoM explanations is that they try to suck and blow at the same time.
Let's talk the IoM torpedoes as a measure of IoM armor for a moment here:
Here's undisputed information regarding IoM torpedoes.
1. The yield values of IoM torpedoes are huge. These yield values are imprecisely calculated from observing their effects. I say imprecisely since the descriptions of their effects are imprecise themselves, and there is a bit of variability in their yields. The fact that they can mount differing warheads also complicates the issue - regardless, the effects are enormous. There is no arguement of that.
2. It is known that torpedoes are fired in broadsides numbering in the 100s and capital ships carry ludicrous numbers (possibly greater than 10's of 1000s) of torpedoes in reserve.
As you stated, it is known that IoM ships can be hit by "multiple" (more than 1?) torpedoes and "survive". Considering that IoM ships can take damage from lances and also survive (albiet with damage) this would suggest that torpedoes, which are many magnitudes weaker should be able to barely scratch the paint on an IoM ship. Unfortunately, it is also known that IoM ships can eventually be destroyed by sustained torpedo attack. There is of course, no definitive description as to what kind of damage is caused, nor is there any indication as to what stages the ship goes through transitioning from "minimal damage" to "destroyed" by cumulative torpedo damage. The armor cant' be so good as to only resist lance damage only to be "destroyed" by cumulative hits from weapons magnitudes (1000's of times) weaker.
The armour can only be "awesome" or "not as awesome as thought". There's the arguement that maybe it was a lucky hit in an unarmored quarter from a torpedo that sunk the ship - however, if you stick with the "awesome" armor arguement and you consider that in WW2, the Bismark had her upper works completely annihilated but was not in danger of sinking - I doubt the destruction of all unarmored surface areas of the ship shouldn't be enough to completely destroy her.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:
"IDENTIFY YOURSELF AND SUBMIT TO THE LIGHT OF THE EMPEROR!"
"Emperor? You must be mistaken, this is the USS Enterprise of the ..."
"FIRE ALL LANCE BATTERIES! PURGE THE HERETIC, THE XENOS, AND THE MUTANT!"
"*blargh*"
I suspect that there'd be an immediate erruption of confusion on the bridge of the IoM ship once the occupants of the smaller ship were identified as human. The ecclesiarchy would want to convert them to the Imperial cult, the Naval commander would be non-commital, the Fleet Comissar would probably want to annihilate them, the Fleet Fabricator would want to commune with the human ship's machine spirit and search for STCs, and the Inquisition would want to question them and check them for the taint of Chaos. In the mean time, the UFP would be eating static and scanning their enormous ship.
Eventually, the circus on the bridge of the IoM ship would decide that they would demand that said human ship surrender and submit to the will of the Emperor and prepare to be boarded. The UFP would reply "No thank you!" and a red alert and shields up. If the blueshirt did his job, they'd be running for the hills as soon as sensors detected weapons charging.
I don't think there would be so much confusion, since not all of those people would be on the ship. An Inquisitor? Certainly not, because his decision would be the only one that matters; he would either be the fire and brimstone type that immediately annihilates the vessel, or he'd be the communicative Eisenhorn-type and would probably have a pleasant chat with Picard.
Fleet Fabricator? You mean Adeptus Mechanicus? They would not be on the same ship as an Inquisitor, and would have final authority on the ship. The Federation ships look nothing remotely like anything STC, so they would see it as heretical alien tech and issue the order to destroy.
There may be a preacher on board to tend to the faith of the crew, but he would not be part of the command structure.
So it would come down to Naval Commander and Fleet Commissar. A "meh" vote and a "killblarghyblargh!" = "killblarghyblargh!"
Omegus wrote:And the thread degenerates into more "LALALALAL FTL LALALALAL FTL YOU CANT TOUCH ME LALALALALA". Several orders of magnitude more ships, resources and manpower trump this little limerick, so you can raise the flag all you want but no one cares.
While in the broadest sense of the word that observation may be true, some of us are trying to find a common ground on which we can agree the rules of the game.
Omegus: Thank you very much. I originally tried to keep things on what I was interested in.....but I gave up on doing that after a while. I'm gonna be starting to post in Dakka Fiction soon.......hopefully I don't fail completely.
Frazzled: I'll agree to that. I actually haven't read the BFG rulebook, but from what I've heard it seems to be reasonable, and of course the fluff in the codexes is the best 1st source.
Keezus: I acknowledge that is a major weakness, but I think the point everyone has is that the lower limit for Imperial firepower and armor is still far above the amount necessary to annihilate the Starfleet.
ChrisWWII wrote:Keezus: I acknowledge that is a major weakness, but I think the point everyone has is that the lower limit for Imperial firepower and armor is still far above the amount necessary to annihilate the Starfleet.
Nobody is arguing that the firepower and armor is far above...
However without a proper frame of reference, no arguements can be made. In my mind, just saying "it's better" doesn't cut it, since it implies that the IoM higher level can never be surpassed by any means at the UFP's disposal. If that's the case, there's no point in debating, considering that the one side is already firmly entrenched in the mindset IoM can not be beat.
It's like everyone agreeing that Chuck Norris is the baddest man alive. Nobody disputes that his beard is harder than granite (but how much harder) and his roundhouse kick can reverse the orbit of a planet (but by how many degrees?). Pointing out that he roundhouse kicks his own face instead of shaving only indicates that his beard (and not his face) has less durability than his kicking power - which doesn't help at all. Without being able to quanitfy Chuck's statistics (impossible, I know), how can we determine how many Captain Americas it would take to match him in a fight?
keezus wrote: If that's the case, there's no point in debating, considering that the one side is already firmly entrenched in the mindset IoM can not be beat.
Haha, and then there's one guy firmly entrenched in the mindset that FTL = autowin.
"Firepower and armor is far above" is a minor part of it when you consider the difference in size and resources. It's like Argentina trying to take on 1970's Soviet Russia (and no SC jokes!).
And Chuck's beard isn't tough because it's made of granite, it's tough because his chin is another fist.
xiophen42 wrote:@ Nosferatu1001
Your stating that a torp is 690 gton of damage means abosolutly nothing, Your stating 300km range of a torp means nothing, Your assumptions about what 40k does and does not have means nothing in this debate beyond it being your own assumption.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Do what you have been asked, politely, to do.
1) Go to the previous pages
2) Find the links and quotes that have been provided, many, many times, by myself and others
3) Read them
If you dont do that then you are simply a troll.
I'll give you a hint for the hard-of-reading: memory alpha and memory beta links. ANd quotes. Many of them. I will NOT repeat the same links just because you are too lazy or inconsiderate to spend the 5 minutes necessary to scan through the thread and find them, as that is doing your work for you.
xiophen42 wrote:In the same Instance I can say a space marine can fly from one end of the galaxy to the next in the blink of an eye can survive a trip through an event horizon and his farts blow up stars. That does not make it accurate.
No, it doesnt - except I (and many others, including a mod or 2) did provide proof, and did provide links. Your continued evasion on this matter isnt exactly convincing me you have read and understood anything.
[I also like how you have yet to acknowledge your maths errors, well done on that one!]
xiophen42 wrote:You need to post proof dialog/clips etc that show thye have 690 gton torps, that they have such ranges, that they fight at warp speed. From the battles we have seen they do not fight at warp speed I can post a dozen clips showing that. the trek Cannon manual states yeilds of 64 megaton. you have to disprove that.
SIgh. Your entire post was a waste of bytes wasnt it.
I cant be bothered to have you post yet another "show proof!!!!!" waste of space, so how about:
memory alpha, for the 90th time, because one poster couldnt be bothered to read the thread wrote:
A class-6 warhead in this type of torpedo had the explosive yield of 200 isotons. These torpedoes had an effective range of approximately 8 million kilometers
A class-10 torpedo could be armed with an even more powerful high yield warhead
Starfleet Technical manual, TNG wrote:Starfleet began developing two types of photon torpedoes starting in 2215, with the primary difficulty being the design of the warhead. The first type had the deuterium and antideuterium reactants driven together like in an implosion design nuclear weapon. This torpedo had a maximum range of 750,000 kilometers, as this was the stability limit of the containment field design. It had a low rate of annihilation, and was adequate as a defensive weapon only. The second type, which became operational in 2271 had the reactants mixed together in thousands of small magnetic packets. This increased the rate of annihilation. This type had an effective tactical range from fifteen kilometers to 3.5 million kilometers. (pg. 128, 130)
Woops! Guess you were wrong there!
showing the STANDARD PHSYICS calculation is 64MTons wrote:
By using standard physics calculations, a payload of 1.5 kilograms equals to about 64 megatons.
The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this.
So the 64MTon yield you were talking about is only the "what we think would happen" yield, not the yield as stated.
xiophen42 wrote:For the 40k quote I have show proof of the ftl sensors just because you do not beleive they exist again means nothing with out the proof see above showing that those are wrong.
No, you havent, and I explained why (and how) this works - you have not shown sufficient proof to show an FTL capability, as I have shown how even our current tech would produce the same effects. In other words your "proof" is not persuasive - it is too full of "I assume this states this, so I will conclude as such" when the actual text does not support that assumption.
xiophen42 wrote:Other wise your aregument are your oppinion and not fact and in truth mean nothing when it comes to the burden of proof thats required in this type of debate.
Done and done, about 15 times before as well. Hopefully you can now take SOME initiative and, I dont know, actually read the rest of the thread?
Also your "proof" is laughable - you have NO comparators in your assumptions on armour and shields, no quantifiers on "damage" and "survives" as has been pointed out, and your "proof" of FTL comms ignores that the simpler argument also fits the situation precisely.
Omegus - I have NOT said "FTL is the win!" as it actually requires a combination of a number of factors, but FTL superiority (in terms of engaging objects from FTL into real space, not absolute speed before that tired chestnut appears again) is a key component of that.
Just the same as your IoM argument comes down to assumptions on Adamantium (you have no comparator to the real world re hardness/damage resistance/density), Void Shelds and their abilty to randomly stop what ever you decide tehy can stop (even though the fluff on void shields and how they operate is so inconsistent) and the fact that the IoM is apparently able to suddenly perfectly coordinate attacks over galactic quadrant distances, ignoring entirely the known variabilty and instability of the Warp and difficulties communicating reliably and with precision.
ChrisWWII - sorry but no, we can disregard the paramount position as they license books to use the franchise. Also they are not the creator, just a mere holder.
So by licensing the books they give tacit approval to the storylines - for example we know they maintain main-time-line control, so do exercise some control over story arcs. By simple extrapolation anything they permit they have agreed to and is de facto canon.
I have yet to see a GW "policy" on canon - if you could provide a link that would be useful? I know MANY people do not consider BL books as canon yet somehow in this thread they are? Why isnt BFG the only source of canon, given GW are a miniature company first and foremost?
xiophen42 wrote:@andrewC the same 64 mton torps usually dont kill bird of presy ships the size of 40k bombers. it usually takes 2 torps to kill a bird of prey with 3 or 4 for a galaxy sized ship.
Now a escort destroyer or frigate is signifactly larger then either a bird of prey or a galaxy class. a cruiser is 3-5km long being composed of that same admantite weighing millions of tons to billions of tons. These same cruisers have survived taking 40k torps exploding inside them and still kept fighting but are gutted by a 64 megaton blast that cant even destroy a vird of prey?
Just had a thought on this, don't think of the torps being very bad but defenses as very, very good.
So if you had an enemy who exclusively relied on a laser for offense, which would you develop? An ultralight reflective armour or heavy polished plate? You go for the ultralight, because the other is unweildy and slow.
Also just realised, and this has taken 16 pages before doing so, Borg Ships are bigger than IoM ships! The longest IoM ship is what 12Km and perhaps 1km wide and tall, so app 12km3. A borg cube is symetrical, so a 3km cube is 27km3. 2 and a half times bigger than an IoM battleship, and that was oneshotted by Voyager at the end of the series using a Multiphasic torp(?)
I meant to add this to Xiophen - you forget the structural integrity fields that all ST vessels use, which significantly increases the "strength" of the materials and reduces the damage caused.
AS the IoM has nothing even approaching this tht would be one way damage wouild be greater on IoM than on a comparable ST, for the same yield.
nosferatu1001 wrote:I have yet to see a GW "policy" on canon - if you could provide a link that would be useful? I know MANY people do not consider BL books as canon yet somehow in this thread they are? Why isnt BFG the only source of canon, given GW are a miniature company first and foremost?
There is this tidbit, from Marc Gascoigne of the Black Library;
Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.
Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".
But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.
It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.
Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.
To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.
There is no link, as if I recall that was posted on the BL forum which no longer exists. That's the closest we have to an 'official' policy on canon anyway, take it for what it is!
Warhammer 40k wins because weapon yields measure in high teraton to petaton range.
Phasers are only good against organic matter.
Proof for weapon yields.
Weapons batteries (Otherwise known as macro cannons), loaded with a shell that weighs “several tons.” Going with the standard established velocity of 20,000 km/s for direct fire Imperial weapons weapons. At that mass/velocity, the kinetic energy of the projectile would be 400,000 terajoules, or just under 10 gigatons.
Conservative figures point to the Battleship firing “two hundred foot” torpedoes, which would be sixty meters long. Assuming that the diameter is 1/4 to 1/5 of the length, the torpedo would yield a diameter of around fifteen meters. To be further conservative, assume a density equal to water (yeah, I’m being ultra conservative here.) The mass of the torpedo in question would be between 6,800 and 10,600 tons.
Thus the kinetic energy of a torpedo is about 12,400,000,000 petajoules (Staggering really) with a momentum (Measured by calculating the speed and weight of the torpedo) between 6.6e16 kg*m/s and 1.05e17 kg*m/s.
Giving a single Torpedo a staggering yield of 2963 teratons (Or 2.9 petatons)
Take note of how the ship has to compensate engine thrust to counter recoil – in a vacuum!
I would generally assume “close to light-speed” to mean at least 80-90% of C. The size of a Nova cannon shell is never given precisely, but the diameter of the shell is given in other sources (Fifty meters in “Warriors of Ultramar”), though a 30 meter diameter nova cannon is mentioned. Mass can be derived by assuming the length is at least equal to the diameter, or (more probably) a multiple of the diameter (2-3x longer than the diameter, for example. A fifty meter diameter shell would be a hundred and fifty meters long).
Example: Going by a 50×150 meter shell made of Iron (assume 30% solid, its supposed to be packed with explosive of unknown type and density) fired at .9c yields a shell mass of around 770,000 tons and and a kinetic energy rating of 90,000,000,000 petajoules (Holy gak!).
Giving the blast of a Nova cannon (The most powerful ship mounted Imperial weapon) a staggering yield of 22 petatons.
Or for those less fantastically inclined, two to three million times the combined explosive power of every nuclear weapon on Earth throughout history.
Naval combat in the realms of 40K can take weeks, in the case of the Damnation Crusade, Chaos and Imperial Vessels were engaged for a whole month above a single planet before any noticeable gain was made in terms of naval dominance.
In one instance (I think it may been the Damocles Crusade) an Imperial Battleship activated her void shields within the immediate proximity of a nearby Planet (Void shields should be reserved for deep space) out of sheer desperation. The force given off as the tear shaped shield impacted the surface was sufficient as to literally vaporize most of the Planet upon contact, placing the output within the realms of 240 nonillion joules (2.40 x 10E+32), or a yield of 57,000,000,000 petatons. Of course without knowing the grade, scale, rotation and composition of the Planet in question, these are only optimistic estimates at best.
Naval combat in the realms of 40K can take weeks.
I read a story where an Imperial Oberon class Battleship engaged a Chaos Battleship(don’t think it said what class) near a Chaos infested planet. The two ships battled it out for at least a week. Just continuously pounding the crap out of each other. It ended with the heavily damaged Imperial Oberon ramming the Chaos ship and overloading her Warp engines. The resulting explosion obliterated both ships and completely devastated the nearby planet, wiping out all life and turning it into a Dead World.
So here my claim and that's for Imperial warships,imagine the Necron ship who defeated ten retributions alone.
Rube; lots of interesting stuff there, which boils down to that BL can be, is and will be factually false at some point and there is no way of telling which is true and which is false. The statement of 'what is canon' comes from an individual not authorised to speak for the parent company whos' product we are debating.
Good work finding it, bad luck those people using it to support their cause, because we have just been told there is no backup of factuality about it.
Ivan; as we've just discovered all your figures are now suspect, because the source information is not factual under the caveats given above. The Oberon snippet while interesting doesn't really help, the closest we can come to a ST episode is a BL book, so if it is not reproduced elsewhere we really shouldn't use it as an ability. I also think that, as you pointed out, it was an act of desperation as the ship risked destruction by switching them on in the first place.
All of a sudden we've went full circle and back to the start
AndrewC wrote:Rube; lots of interesting stuff there, which boils down to that BL can be, is and will be factually false at some point and there is no way of telling which is true and which is false. The statement of 'what is canon' comes from an individual not authorised to speak for the parent company whos' product we are debating.
On what basis do you think he doesn't have authority to speak on GW's behalf?
IvanTih wrote:In one instance (I think it may been the Damocles Crusade) an Imperial Battleship activated her void shields within the immediate proximity of a nearby Planet (Void shields should be reserved for deep space) out of sheer desperation. The force given off as the tear shaped shield impacted the surface was sufficient as to literally vaporize most of the Planet upon contact, placing the output within the realms of 240 nonillion joules (2.40 x 10E+32), or a yield of 57,000,000,000 petatons. Of course without knowing the grade, scale, rotation and composition of the Planet in question, these are only optimistic estimates at best.
As usual, the IoM's super shields and superweapons evidence does more to cast doubt on its own case than anything else.
So on the one hand, the most powerful gun in the IoM tops out at 22PT or 9.19x10E+25J, yet void shields are outputting at 2.4x10E+32J sustained. This would seem to indicate that the most powerful gun in the IoM is over a million times weaker than the shields it is meant to beat. To add to this... if ships are able to sustain novacannon hits, this should make torpedoes at 1.24x10E+10J output (nearly 16 magnitudes weaker) completely ineffective, however, torpedoes are shown in canon to be able to destroy IoM ships with cumulative hits.
To put things in perspective: estimates place the entire output of our sun at 3.846 × 10E+26 watts (that's J/s guys), this would indicate that void shields are outputting over a million times this on a sustained basis, and Novacannons are firing at around 10% of the sun's output per shot. Of course, the IoM has super secret advanced fusion tech which (in canon) enables them to both sustain continuous void shield operation and fire their weapons simultaneously, all powered by a fusion reactor that is much less than < 12km^2 in size. Even if the IoM reactors are more efficient than the common Trek reactor types (anti-matter/matter reactors of the UFP or the singularity powered reactors of the Romulan Star Empire), fusion reactors having a million sun rating (suns being natural fusion reactors) may be a bit of a stretch. Ergo, given the fact that the figures make about as much sense as the Chewbacca defense, it might be concluded that for any of these figures to be right, some of the figures must be wrong. The void shield one is the most out of whack. Take that one away and the reactor drops to a one sun rating (which is still ridiculous), but makes the novacannon actually effective. However, to reconcile with the effectiveness of torpedoes, you're either looking at reactor power of not more than 1.0x10E-12 sun rating at best, making the novacannon a mere 1000x more powerful than torpedoes, or making torpedoes 1.0x10E+7x more powerful (which seems less likely).
What are you smoking? Black Library is a division of Games Workshop. It would seem the guy in charge of the division dealing primarily with fiction would be the right one to let determine what is canon and what is not. Rick Priestley certainly no longer gives a damn.
Omegus wrote:What are you smoking? Black Library is a division of Games Workshop. It would seem the guy in charge of the division dealing primarily with fiction would be the right one to let determine what is canon and what is not. Rick Priestley certainly no longer gives a damn.
I wish I was.
BL is a seperate company in the same way FW is a seperate company. One has the authority to act within the remit of the parent company but does not have the authority to speak for the parent company. In this case the tail is trying to wag the dog rather than the other way round.
I'm not dissing the statement, just pointing out that the person making it doesn't have the authority. Does that make sense?
Omegus wrote:What are you smoking? Black Library is a division of Games Workshop. It would seem the guy in charge of the division dealing primarily with fiction would be the right one to let determine what is canon and what is not. Rick Priestley certainly no longer gives a damn.
BL /= Citadel Miniatures.
Citadel Miniatures is the parent, anyone working for a legally sperate company, despite being wholly owned, does not from a legal standpoint have the authority to speak for the parent.
Not to add that, even if he CAN speak for the parent, he states they make stuff up as they see fit! - which entirely removes ANY BL/Citadel Miniatures source of fluff being considered as reliable - about the only time you can consider something reliable if it is repeated over periods of time.
So one of stories are suspect - never mind the analysis performed which shows that *somehow* fusion reactions are operating at >sun efficiency in order to keep shields going that are a million times more powerful than the most powerful weapons...in other words: everything 40k is suspect.
It may be time to call this quits from a "hard facts" standpoint - 40k has no real world comparator for crtitical elements, such as hull strength, suspect figures suggesting that something is made up, and an admission from an unsupported person that they make stuff up as they see fit.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It may be time to call this quits from a "hard facts" standpoint - 40k has no real world comparator for crtitical elements, such as hull strength, suspect figures suggesting that something is made up, and an admission from an unsupported person that they make stuff up as they see fit.
About this, I entirely agree. Let me see if I can sum up everything we know for sure about Imperial starships;
nosferatu1001 wrote:
It may be time to call this quits from a "hard facts" standpoint - 40k has no real world comparator for crtitical elements, such as hull strength, suspect figures suggesting that something is made up, and an admission from an unsupported person that they make stuff up as they see fit.
About this, I entirely agree. Let me see if I can sum up everything we know for sure about Imperial starships;
[quote=nosferatu1001
I'll give you a hint for the hard-of-reading: memory alpha and memory beta links. ANd quotes. Many of them. I will NOT repeat the same links just because you are too lazy or inconsiderate to spend the 5 minutes necessary to scan through the thread and find them, as that is doing your work for you.
memory alpha is a fan site not considered cannon in any way shape or form....
xiophen42 wrote:In the same Instance I can say a space marine can fly from one end of the galaxy to the next in the blink of an eye can survive a trip through an event horizon and his farts blow up stars. That does not make it accurate.
No, it doesnt - except I (and many others, including a mod or 2) did provide proof, and did provide links. Your continued evasion on this matter isnt exactly convincing me you have read and understood anything.
[I also like how you have yet to acknowledge your maths errors, well done on that one!]
didnt have to acknowledge any math errors I was not trying to prove or disprove anything I was just showing the question of the speed and the fact that the Iom vessel was giving a time which they can be at the location of the convergence was 93 minutes. if you want we can calculate the average speed which what was given. the acceleration etc *note will have to run math when i have time at home.*
SIgh. Your entire post was a waste of bytes wasnt it.
I cant be bothered to have you post yet another "show proof!!!!!" waste of space, so how about:
memory alpha, for the 90th time, because one poster couldnt be bothered to read the thread wrote:
A class-6 warhead in this type of torpedo had the explosive yield of 200 isotons. These torpedoes had an effective range of approximately 8 million kilometers
A class-10 torpedo could be armed with an even more powerful high yield warhead
Starfleet Technical manual, TNG wrote:Starfleet began developing two types of photon torpedoes starting in 2215, with the primary difficulty being the design of the warhead. The first type had the deuterium and antideuterium reactants driven together like in an implosion design nuclear weapon. This torpedo had a maximum range of 750,000 kilometers, as this was the stability limit of the containment field design. It had a low rate of annihilation, and was adequate as a defensive weapon only. The second type, which became operational in 2271 had the reactants mixed together in thousands of small magnetic packets. This increased the rate of annihilation. This type had an effective tactical range from fifteen kilometers to 3.5 million kilometers. (pg. 128, 130)
Woops! Guess you were wrong there!
Fianlly you post a real quote thank you for providing burden of proof .
showing the STANDARD PHSYICS calculation is 64MTons wrote:
By using standard physics calculations, a payload of 1.5 kilograms equals to about 64 megatons.
The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this.
So the 64MTon yield you were talking about is only the "what we think would happen" yield, not the yield as stated.
So the Anti matter pod has a destructive force of 690 gtons not the torpedo. So lets get this straight suddenly the TRek ship cores are now considered torpedos. so yes Ill give you that if the antimatter pod is ruptered you can get an explosion of 690 gtons. but at that point you have either imobolised the ship or its blowing up due to its core being ruptured. Interesting what happens when you actually properl;y reference whats causing the explosion. ship engine core not torp.
Again how does this disprove the TRek manual stated yeilds of 64 megatons.
xiophen42 wrote:For the 40k quote I have show proof of the ftl sensors just because you do not beleive they exist again means nothing with out the proof see above showing that those are wrong.
No, you havent, and I explained why (and how) this works - you have not shown sufficient proof to show an FTL capability, as I have shown how even our current tech would produce the same effects. In other words your "proof" is not persuasive - it is too full of "I assume this states this, so I will conclude as such" when the actual text does not support that assumption.
You have where where? We have Quotes from seperate sources showing sensors receiving realtime feed from events that are light minutes away. Hell In shadow point they have a ship viewing something on viasual at 16 light minutes away? No time delay is given during the book. so again How did you diosprove this again?
xiophen42 wrote:Other wise your aregument are your oppinion and not fact and in truth mean nothing when it comes to the burden of proof thats required in this type of debate.
Done and done, about 15 times before as well. Hopefully you can now take SOME initiative and, I dont know, actually read the rest of the thread?
Also your "proof" is laughable - you have NO comparators in your assumptions on armour and shields, no quantifiers on "damage" and "survives" as has been pointed out, and your "proof" of FTL comms ignores that the simpler argument also fits the situation precisely.
lets see your 690 gton quotes is the referencing of a trek shisp core rupturing and exploding not really a torp. you did finally show proof of trek maxium ranges but again when I have a chance to get home Ill post some clips of the trek combat that seems to throw a monkey wrench in your light second ranges.
having read your 40k doesnt have ftl sensors arguments Im left wondering are you really trying as again you have yet to disprove the fact that in shadow point, If you want I can pull up Warriors of Ultimar again different write differen source where they discuss the battles and the the progress of the Nid fleet. Again Ive read your responses again I take quoted references over your opinion.
Omegus - I have NOT said "FTL is the win!" as it actually requires a combination of a number of factors, but FTL superiority (in terms of engaging objects from FTL into real space, not absolute speed before that tired chestnut appears again) is a key component of that.
Did you ever show evidence of Ftl combat in TNG, DS9 or VOY? beyond the fact again you have not disproven ftl sensors for IOm vessels Ive reread the thread and beyond your assumption I can only think of 2 instance where ftl combat was show the picard manuever *never used again* and when the Ent - D was fleeing the borg in TNG duriing thier first appearance. I see your Web pae makes some assumptions of possible ftl combat but I dont ever see proof given to discount the remaining combats that occur at SLT.
Just the same as your IoM argument comes down to assumptions on Adamantium (you have no comparator to the real world re hardness/damage resistance/density), Void Shelds and their abilty to randomly stop what ever you decide tehy can stop (even though the fluff on void shields and how they operate is so inconsistent) and the fact that the IoM is apparently able to suddenly perfectly coordinate attacks over galactic quadrant distances, ignoring entirely the known variabilty and instability of the Warp and difficulties communicating reliably and with precision.
Again we now know that a antimatter pod *starship engine* does not a weapon make. Your Web page makes a false assumption that suddenly trek is making torpedos using thier anti matter pods when again we have no evidence that they ever have. If they did they would have boned the dominion and the borg. which we never see.
You are making an assumption that even though bfg fluff 40kbl fluff and elswheres has on multiple occaions stated that you can not teleport through void shields thats TRek whos teleportation is canon as being disrupted by a harsh sneeze, has mishapps and is stoped by everything ranging from shields to bedrock on a planet in a few episodes will suddenly circumvent shields block teleportation that is 1000 % more accurate and more powerful *necrons* we are at an impass you need to show proof that they can port through 40k void shields .
TRans warp
ChrisWWII - sorry but no, we can disregard the paramount position as they license books to use the franchise. Also they are not the creator, just a mere holder.
So by licensing the books they give tacit approval to the storylines - for example we know they maintain main-time-line control, so do exercise some control over story arcs. By simple extrapolation anything they permit they have agreed to and is de facto canon.
You can not ignore paramount position they own the intelectual rights to star trek they determine what is canon and what is not canon.
I have yet to see a GW "policy" on canon - if you could provide a link that would be useful? I know MANY people do not consider BL books as canon yet somehow in this thread they are? Why isnt BFG the only source of canon, given GW are a miniature company first and foremost?
Im looking for it, se to be posted on a differentr site they took it down though looking for it.
And I thought this debate was finally closing......
But please remember, Andrew that just because they're bigger that doesn't mean they're better. Borg cubes seem to be mostly empty space, with relatively thin walled construction. This means that they are not nearly as dense as an Imperial battleship, no matter how big they are. Imperial weapons, designed to pierce metal plate often dozens of meters thick will have no trouble punching through the Borg cube. Finally, you have to remember that Starfleet always had the ability to destroy Borg cubes with conventional non transphasic weapons. The transphasic weapons just give them an advantage SPECIFICALLY against the Borg, simply do to the defensive mechanism the Borg rely upon, which is configuring their shields to perfectly reflect the 'phase' of the weapons being used against them. As we saw in First Contact, the Borg have little to no protection against a simple machine gun (most likely because physical projectiles have no phase to adjust to....why photon torpedoes do is a complete mystery to me ). A transphasic is effective against the Borg only because it constantly switches its 'phase' and as such can not be perfectly reflected by the Borg, allowing it to easily penetrate the Borg's thin armor and destroy the vessel by taking out vital systems. Please don't say the Borg 'have no vital systems in their vessels' because we saw very clearly in First Contact that they do.
And Nosferatu here is a quote describing Star Trek canon completely quoted 2nd hand from Gene Roddenberry.
Gene is the authority. And when he says that the books, and the games, and the comics and everything else, are not gospel, but are only additional Star Trek based on his Star Trek but not part of the actual Star Trek universe that he created... they're just, you know, kinda fun to keep you occupied between episodes and between movies, whatever... but he does not want that to be considered to be sources of information for writers, working on this show, he doesn't want it to be considered part of the canon by anybody working on any other projects. (Richard Arnold)
It clearly states that anything outside the movies and TV shows is not Star Trek canon, while Games Workshop, through its subsidiary Black Library, has declared anything published by them with the 40k symbol on it is 40k canon. Of course, there is a propaganda list to things said by CHARACTERS, but I do believe the narration can be viewed as relative truth. As long as that narration is not by a character (e.g. 1st person stories like Ciaphas Cain). And Nosferatu...you do realize that at this point Paramount is to Star Trek as George Lucas is to Star Wars and Games Workshop is to 40k, right? They own it, so they can do whatever the hell they want with it, and the fandom has to accept their canon rulings.
Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Klawz wrote:4. Their guns are big.
5. They can blow up continents.
6. They're bad-arse.
Nosferatu was posting undisputed information. Your No 4. is unmistakable.
Regarding No. 5: Only the potential for widespread surface devestation is certain. Your use of the technical term: "blow up continents" requires clarification. Both "blow up" and "continents" requires further detail regarding scope. Please outline expected level of damage output, preferably in J with supporting calculations and evidence and we may move No 5 into the list of undisputed information.
Regarding No 6: As the technical term bad-arse is unquantifiable, I would move that No. 6 be inadmissable, unless you'd like to educate us further.
Here's something about phasers.
Phaser is an ergonomic nightmare in every respect. No safety or trigger guard, no sights, is exceedingly difficult and painful to aim, the shape of its handgrip forces you to either hold your wrist in an uncomfortable position or hold it far too low to sight down its barrel, also the clip is hidden beneath a panel in the underside of the handle or body (like batteries in a remote control), so you can visualize the difficulty of changing it. A Soldier would have to turn it upside down, and use his other hand in order to open the carefully hidden panel and then replace the clip. The idea of doing this during the heat of battle is absolutely insane; it would entail taking the weapon away from the aimed position and partially disassembling it! Real-life weapons and training techniques are carefully designed to minimize such disruptions to the soldier’s concentration in battle. Anyone who has even a basic clue about the use of firearms, knows that ergonomics comes as one of the highest pantheons of weapons design.
Onto the matter of firepower itself it seems that an in-depth observation demonstrates that Phasers are nowhere near as powerful as the first glance of the untrained and hyperbolic eye suggests.
1) First let us analyse the known efficiency of Federation phase weapons. The Phaser is not a direct energy transfer weapon (Lasers, kinetic energy weapons, plasma weapons, chemical explosive weapons, etc) as the latter generally release their energy in an indiscriminate manner, in fact a Phaser presents none of the known characteristics of direct energy transfer; the most prominent of which is collateral energy. In fact official literature states that “the basic phaser mechanism remains the strong nuclear force liberation method found in the nadion effect, and it also states that “almost no classical thermal or other unwanted EM effects are present in the discharge beam.” The Star Trek official technical literature is clearly in agreement that the basic mechanism of phaser operation is not thermal or electromagnetic in nature. This relates once again to the official Star Trek literature which states that the matter/anti-matter annihilation in Federation technology is not 100% efficient (Somehow they overlooked such a major flaw); in fact 85% of the Phaser inefficiently turns into pions, so instead of producing wasted thermal and electromagnetic energy you have a case in which much of the subatomic mass is lost to the atmosphere. Taking the 74% conversion efficiency from the DS9 technical manual and ignoring the pions/neutrino problem you get at most 34% effectiveness from a handheld Phaser model.
2) Inherently this relates back to the mechanics of the Phaser itself. To explain the behaviour of phasers, they must fire special “phaser particles” (Nadion radiation), which can be verified by the previous source. These particles disintegrate atoms into a shower of neutrinos, therefore a small portion of the mass must transform into new nadion particles (probably with slightly less energy than the original particle, since the chain reactions don’t go on indefinitely beyond the parameters of the host). Low-energy phaser bursts seem to have very different effects from high-energy phaser particles: below the nucleus disruption force threshold, they seem to be capable of causing a variety of effects ranging from simple heating to electrical shock effects for stunning a target. The particles must have mass because phaser beams are known to propagate at distinctly sublight speeds in certain situations (particularly hand phaser beams), and they appear to be very short-lived, hence their apparent inability to propagate through gases (where the large inter-atomic spacing apparently causes enough of a delay to prevent continuation of a chain reaction), or across the gaps between a victim’s shoes and the ground (Not even the contact areas between a flat shoe and the carpet are unaffected). This suggests that a phaser beam incorporates some sort of containment or suspension field to keep the particles from decaying- perhaps it is this field (possibly related to subspace?) which accounts for the ability of phasers to be effective against shields in spite of the absence of matter for the reaction.
What most here have failed to notice is that phasers act independently of the mass of the target. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated on any scientific basis. In “The Vengeance Factor” we actually saw Riker increase the power setting on his hand phaser to maximum, before using it to disintegrate a diminutive female humanoid, probably no more than 50 kg in mass. However, we know that hand phasers on maximum setting can also disintegrate large adult male humanoids, in excess of 80 kg in mass. In both cases, there is just enough energy to disintegrate the entire body, and there is no excess energy to damage the ground under the victim’s feet, or spill over to damage other solid objects in the victim’s vicinity. This can only make sense if the energy for this reaction somehow comes from the victim’s mass, so that the reaction continues until it runs out of mass but does not continue afterwards. Otherwise, if the energy all comes from the phaser, there should either be a deficit of energy when shooting at large targets, or a surplus of energy when shooting at small targets. Therefore, we know that the phaser reaction most likely transforms matter into neutrinos, and that it must occur in a chain reaction which feeds off the victim’s mass.
But what fact have I already stated in regards to neutrino reactions? They don’t scale up in density. Thus carbon based life forms should be easy to disintegrate because they are dominated by hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen (atomic numbers 1, 6, and 8 respectively), and light elements like this are probably very susceptible to a neutrino chain reaction. Silicates and silicon-based life forms should be more difficult to disintegrate. This is substantiated by what we saw in the episode “Devil in the Dark”, when a silicon based life form proved to be more resistant to phaser fire than a carbon based life form. We have also seen that high alloy density body armour (Around the thickness of a Flak Jacket) is extremely resistant to phasers, as we can tell from “Way of the Warrior”, in which repeated phaser blasts did only minor cosmetic damage to plated armour at disintegration setting. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the material composition and density of the target has an enormous effect on the effectiveness of hand phasers. Since we already know that phasers operate on some sort of chain reaction, and that they must derive much of their energy from the target itself, this is not a surprise. The pattern appears to favour atoms with very high nucleon counts, such as heavy metals. Apparently, the higher the atomic number, the less susceptible an element is to the effects of the Phaser. This is also consistent with “Devil in the Dark”, since silicon has a higher atomic number than carbon (14 as opposed to 6).
Now before you argue this (Despite official literature stating otherwise), how do you explain these characteristics?
A) Phasers at maximum power make a human being “disappear” in a flash of light, without debris or gas clouds. People can stand right next to a person being disintegrated and not be affected.
B) Phaser disintegrations occur slowly, taking a significant amount of time even after the phaser beam stops: anywhere from one to two seconds.
C) Maximum-power phasers disintegrate a human body in its entirety, regardless of mass, and no excess energy ever spills into the environment.
D) Phasers can heat rocks until they become luminescent, allowing away-teams to keep themselves warm.
E) Phasers can shatter large amounts of rock, knocking very large boulders loose and causing explosive reactions.
F) Phasers are ineffective against heavy armour (they have historically only been effective against light silicates).
3) Once again this is demonstrated by the fact that packing crates and other light metals are resistant to Phaser fire, even the walls of the Enterprise herself remain immune throughout fire fights, demonstrating only small electrical and thermal reactions to beam impacts. In fact the DS9 Technical Manual states that 2.4 terajoules of energy is required to vaporize a cubic metre of tritanium (The alloy used in the construction of ships), yet a handheld Phaser requires the continuous application of a highly concentrated beam (Similar to a cutting torch) over a matter of minutes to heat, melt and remove a rectangular section of starship plating. This suggests a beam far weaker than 2.4 terajoules, which is indicative of a second upper limit of Phaser power.
4) According to the technical manuals (Pg 19), the Federation cannot construct a 600m long ship which won’t sag like Joan Rivers’ wrinkled tits in Earth gravity, even during Warp Speed a “structural integrity field” is required to survive faster than light travel. In the Star Wars universe a 19km Star Destroyer was stored beneath a mountain could escape the gravity well of an Earth sized planet with ease (Which goes down to Star Destroyer, Victory class, Acclamator), remain stable at speeds millions of times faster than Warp and survive multiple gigaton blasts to the structure (A Heavy Turbolaser blast is 3,125 times more powerful than the max theoretical output of a Photon Torpedo). They could build a city twice the size of San Francisco and suspend it above the gravity well of a Jupiter sized planet. Jupiter, that’s a gravitational field strength in the upper atmosphere of 24.66Nkg^-1, more than twice that of Earth. The superior structural integrity of the materials used in the Star Wars universe can sustain stresses that the Federation cannot even fathom in their comparatively primitive construction methods (The Death Star is ample proof of this). In lieu of this, it is certainly viable that a 2.1 mega joule laser could damage the hull of the Enterprise.
5) Whilst destroying rock seems impressive, the energy required for uncoupling or shattering a 10m diameter boulder (With a volume of 500m squared) is only one ton of explosive power. Which is nowhere even near the scale of rock destroyed in the Trek series. In fact it took a heavy mounted Phaser weapon to bore a hole through a boulder that was only over two meters in diameter.
6) Now according to the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual, the optimum output of the Main Phaser array of the Enterprise-D is measured at 3.6 gigawatts (Approximately 5.1 megawatts per emitter). Obviously this is representative of Federation Capital Class ship based weaponry rather than the infantry level small arms such as the Type-II Phaser, but it certainly gives us an impression of an upper level limit to work with. This of course is substantiated by the TNG episode “Conundrum” where a laser (Not a Phaser – but a direct energy weapon) damages the hull of the Enterprise-D whilst being described as a mere 2.1 mega joule weapon. Although it may seem a tempting solution to suggest that hand held Phasers are far more powerful than their ship mounted equivalents, it is fallacious to do so for several obvious reasons that should not have to be clarified for the sake of all that is intelligent.
7) Once again, according to the DS9 technical manual, the battery/clip (It is unique for utilizing an assault rifle-esqe cartridge) storage capacity of a Type-III phaser (Also known as a phaser rifle, which is the most powerful hand-held weapon carried aboard Federation starships) is 67.5 terajoules.
Now before you say to yourself “Hey, that’s greater in value than the Main Phaser Array!” there are a few points that must be remembered:
A) 67.5 terajoules is the max “theoretical” amount of energy that can be stored. Anyone who understands even the basics of how potential storage systems work knows that no battery is 100% efficient, thus it is unlikely to utilize the total sum of energy in the conversion process. If anything, the larger Phaser arrays are probably more efficient in the conversion process due to a mechanism compatible with scaled systems, thus requiring less input.
B) The reactor of the entire vessel has an output of only 4 billion gigawatts , thus demanding greater levels of efficiency for capital weapons. Hand held Phasers and their clips/batteries could quite likely be charged over a prolonged period of time
C) The clip has to displace and lose this energy over multiple varying levels of shots (During “First Contact”, crew members are never seen reloading or carrying spare clips even during extended engagements, suggesting their capacity to be quite high). Phaser can be scaled in power according to the demand of the user; stun shots require only small amounts of energy, whilst disintegration shots take up vastly larger amounts. Thus the depletion of energy is never as uniform as conventional magazines.
Also the issue with something like a wide-beam phaser is similar to the “inverse square law”, although the formula will be different, because that rule applies to non-directional energy releases, like bombs. In that case, if you double the distance from the bomb, the target takes one quarter as much energy from it. Triple the distance, one-ninth of the energy. Expand as needed.
A cone-shaped beam from a phaser won’t drop in power as quickly as that, but it will drop nevertheless. In practice, the best we’ve seen a wide-beam phaser do is stun a group of people at a range of less than ten meters. In actual battle situations, Federation personnel invariably use only narrow beams, so we can reasonably conclude that wide beams aren’t that useful.
D) Efficiency. As stated previously, Phasers are far from 100% efficient, in fact the greater majority of inputted energy into each burst is lost to the environment. Due to the inevitable prospect of energy lost through repeated use, the total amount that reaches a target is far less than that required to generate the Phaser burst.
E) According to the DS9 TM, a Phaser can be set to overload and explode violently (Killing anyone nearby) if the battery input of the charged phase burst reaches 9 terajoules. So whilst discharging over 60 terajoules of energy in a single burst may seem to be a tempting resolution to any conflict, exceeding the material limit of the container by a significant amount causes the firearm to erupt.
This of course all refers to the Type-III Phaser, which is the more powerful variant of the Phaser firearm model; in fact the magazine of said firearm is a lot larger than the entirety of the Type-II Phaser itself. This ultimately suggests that it contains far less energy and is nowhere near as powerful as a result due to the Phaser mechanics conversion method.
In conclusion we must remember that given a system with an initial energy state (A), final energy state (B), and energy input (C), how do you think you determine the energy input? Note that you cannot simply infer or assume energy state (B); you must measure it to attain a measurable result.
Ultimately the Phaser proves to be an effective weapon against specific organisms due to the physical mechanism of the Phaser beam itself, unfortunately (As witnessed) the effectiveness of said beam greatly diminishes as you scale up the target itself due to the fact that the Phaser is not a direct energy weapon in latent terms. Evidence states that it’s actually a form of mass reactive radiation, which whilst potent against weaker atomic bonds, proves to be terrible against denser materials; in fact hand-held Phasers only very rarely overcome denser alloys given plot specific reasoning (Such as connecting the Phaser to the reactor of the ship itself).
Klawz wrote:4. Their guns are big.
5. They can blow up continents.
6. They're bad-arse.
Nosferatu was posting undisputed information. Your No 4. is unmistakable.
Regarding No. 5: Only the potential for widespread surface devestation is certain. Your use of the technical term: "blow up continents" requires clarification. Both "blow up" and "continents" requires further detail regarding scope. Please outline expected level of damage output, preferably in J with supporting calculations and evidence and we may move No 5 into the list of undisputed information.
Regarding No 6: As the technical term bad-arse is unquantifiable, I would move that No. 6 be inadmissable, unless you'd like to educate us further.
ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Chris: This is a pet peeve of mine. Considering your insistence that the photorp yield calculation is so strictly adhered to and the VOY numbers are discounted, isn't it a bit hypocritical to be so accepting of Imperial fusion reactor power outputs? Even given the BL's "magic" super science, and limiting the output to a single "sun level" output (as opposed to a million sun rating), since the sun is also a fusion reactor, the Imperial reactor would have to be greater than 1.18x10E+15 times more efficient given the size of the IoM ships compared to the sun. On the one hand, you are stating that it is impossible to get additional yield (to roughly 10xE+4 times greater) by "enriching" the warhead (by admittedly unknown means), but you are asking the UFP supporters to accept fusion efficiency in the neighbourhood of 10xE+15 greater than the sun (by equally unknown means).
ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Chris, a photon torpedo, after Star Trek voodoo enhancement, has a maximum possible yield of 690 gigatons. That's canon. You can justify it however you please, but it happens.
ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Chris, a photon torpedo, after Star Trek voodoo enhancement, has a maximum possible yield of 690 gigatons. That's canon. You can justify it however you please, but it happens.
Ahh no the quoe that noferatu posted was in reference to the anti matter pods exploding. then making the assumption that we will see this applied to torps. when you follow the link he posted with it discussing the large sized torp it directly referencing the anti matter pod.
Ivan, we dropped the debate over phasers quite a while ago.
At present we are trying to now settle the power of a photon torpedo 64MT vs 690GT
Chris, I think it was yourself that said that the purest form of energy production is not fission or fusion but antimatter annhilation. It may not have been I can't remember. IoM does not use antimatter but the energy sources above, without resorting to "but it says so in a book" a defence being denied to SF supporters, how can you explain the production of power far exceeding the sum mass of the components, when the purest form of energy release won't achieve the same thing?
As for IoM weapons, chances are they would just go straight through a borg cube without stopping, it would be like shooting fog, but I digress from the matter at hand. From what I can see/find transphasic weapons did not give them an advantage specifically against borg, but were simply that destructive. They were to be used as a last resort when other methods failed because they were concerned that the borg would learn and adapt their shielding accordingly. The transphasic torpedo, for a better word, was/is intangible and didn't penetrate armour in the physical sense it simply went past it. This is the bugbear I have about this sort of debate, until ground rules for technology can be established it goes nowhere.
Canon. GW has never ruled anything outside their 'core package' as canon, but then again they have never ruled anything outside of that package as non-canon. BL has never ruled anything produced by them as canon. FW have never claimed anything by them by canon. Pure canon are the rule books, codecii, armybooks. As Gascoigne said "Yes, No, Maybe" as much as it is a clever answer it is one avoiding a definitive answer.
ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Chris, a photon torpedo, after Star Trek voodoo enhancement, has a maximum possible yield of 690 gigatons. That's canon. You can justify it however you please, but it happens.
Ahh no the quoe that noferatu posted was in reference to the anti matter pods exploding. then making the assumption that we will see this applied to torps. when you follow the link he posted with it discussing the large sized torp it directly referencing the anti matter pod.
If you actually bothered to read the quote properly, you'd notice that they explode with a force EQUAL to that of an antimatter pod rupturing...
ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.
Chris, a photon torpedo, after Star Trek voodoo enhancement, has a maximum possible yield of 690 gigatons. That's canon. You can justify it however you please, but it happens.
Ahh no the quoe that noferatu posted was in reference to the anti matter pods exploding. then making the assumption that we will see this applied to torps. when you follow the link he posted with it discussing the large sized torp it directly referencing the anti matter pod.
If you actually bothered to read the quote properly, you'd notice that they explode with a force EQUAL to that of an antimatter pod rupturing...
I read the quote I know ti referenced the anti matter pod at that point Im still trying to discover where it it shows an acutal torpedo that is this nature give n the size of war heads we see them commonly working on. and the fact that it sounds like a theoretical eidl since we never see proof of a 690 gt explosion short of the breif blurb here. not in any of the tv shows or movies. such war head would vape any ship in trek and then some given the ships paltry shielding and such.
Remember we know from the same tech manual that the trek enterprise d shield has the following power levels 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators, p.138) a 690 gt torp would blow through this like it was non existant yet we never see this in any trek episodes a fully shielded ship can survive several torp hits?
Hell we see an unshielded ship surviving multiple torp hits and not die guess those integrity fields are awsome ... except that we see phaser which are rated at Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123).
Again I see the quote I see that the tech manual states that the torp is Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload, p.129)
Again we never see these mystery torps we know they reffer to the anti matter pod and that it is said to have that level of destructive firepower I would just like to see something other then this quote that supportes the torp powerlevel.
Even then we are still talking if these theoretical torp which again we do ever see even the quantom torps dont show that level of firepower. I heard quotes of 1 gton for quantom due to visual results.
Xiophen - sorry, sounds like you are back pedalling. You repeatedly stated, in your post, that somehow it wasnt a torpedo but their antimatter pods exploding - at least have the decency to admit your error. 690GT is the stated yield of a PT, class 6, with class 10s able to mount an even bigger warhead. There is no known max yield for Quantum torpedos as they use vaccum (zero point) energy.
In addition, you DO need to admit your maths error, as you louldy proclaimed that "your maths sucks" (in reference to me) then proceeded to make 3 hideous errors yourself which totally destroy the validity of your calculation of IoM vessel speeds.
In addition you will notice that Memory ALpha is a *canon* fan site - memory beta is "non canon" i.e. books etc. SO you are wrong on that point. You will notice the reference they made to the TNG tech manual.
I do not have to disprove FTL sensors, you have to prove them. You have yet to do so. Your quotes, as I explained, can be shown to say either c or FTL class sensors - as the wording is not precise enough. I repeat: You have to prove your case, using persuasive evidence (as you are unlikely to have anythign conclusive ala ST and tachyon sensors), which you have yet to do so. Please find a statement, anywhere, which states that the images were received with no transmission delay. IF you cannot do that then BOTH c class and FTL class sensors are equally represented and therefore under Occam only C class sensors are allowed.
Again: you have the burden of proof, and you have yet to meet it.
Chris - he said, she said. What you have there is known as *hearsay*, not evidence.
In addition I also explained why BL stating something does not make CM bound to it, legally at least. And in addition they have stated they *make stuff up as they wish*, meaning that you cannot trust anytying, "canon" or not.
FInally: "purest energy source" - actually the greatest source of energy is zero point / vacuum / quantum flux energy. Extracting energy directly from space/time itself. The vacuum energy in a glass of water is enough to boild every ocean on the planet and melt the crust. Extracting it - now thats the tricky part, but Quantum torpedos in ST use this, so they mmay work out (like fission warheads -> fssion reactors) how to turn a weapon to energy generation.
All we can say is IoM ships are big, cumbersome beasts with huge guns. ST ships are fast, nippy creatures with a penchant for using the deflector dish to solve every problem and a probability of failure of the transporters / warp drive / phasers / etc approaching 1 as narrative imperative approaches 1.
Omegus wrote:What are you smoking? Black Library is a division of Games Workshop. It would seem the guy in charge of the division dealing primarily with fiction would be the right one to let determine what is canon and what is not. Rick Priestley certainly no longer gives a damn.
BL /= Citadel Miniatures.
Citadel Miniatures is the parent, anyone working for a legally sperate company, despite being wholly owned, does not from a legal standpoint have the authority to speak for the parent.
Well, they didn't sue him... or stop him, or fire him, or contradict him, in any way. You're arguing on a technicality here, he obviously represents Games Workshop. If that doesn't do it for you though, here's a similar quote from White Dwarf 302;
The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Not to add that, even if he CAN speak for the parent, he states they make stuff up as they see fit! - which entirely removes ANY BL/Citadel Miniatures source of fluff being considered as reliable - about the only time you can consider something reliable if it is repeated over periods of time.
So one of stories are suspect - never mind the analysis performed which shows that *somehow* fusion reactions are operating at >sun efficiency in order to keep shields going that are a million times more powerful than the most powerful weapons...in other words: everything 40k is suspect.
It may be time to call this quits from a "hard facts" standpoint - 40k has no real world comparator for crtitical elements, such as hull strength, suspect figures suggesting that something is made up, and an admission from an unsupported person that they make stuff up as they see fit.
It's almost as though this thread was just to have a bit of fun with the two settings! If there's no way to use math and engineering to decide whether the setting with the Space Elves or the setting with the evil Space Wizards is technically, scientifically and objectively superior then the entire discussion is obviously bunk!
PS - if you're wondering which is the setting with the Space Elves and which is the setting with the Space Wizards, both settings have both Space Elves and Space Wizards.
Rube, you make pertinent points, I'm going to snip out the important ones
Rube wrote:
Well, they didn't sue him... or stop him, or fire him, or contradict him, in any way. You're arguing on a technicality here, he obviously represents Games Workshop. If that doesn't do it for you though, here's a similar quote from White Dwarf 302
GW never do as they can't really sue themselves and have never submitted to what is or is not canon, so what he says as an individual doesn't have to be defended/rebuffed
The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.
This is the crux of the matter GW have given us tools in which to make up a story, ie the rules, codecii and armybooks. The quote itself calls out as canon whatever the player wants it to be, nothing else. But there are a few people out there who are demanding? that optional material via BL must be canon. Despite the statement above which tells us otherwise. My truth is better than your truth, so to speak, when GW have said that everyones truth is correct, well that can't be factually accurate so it would be better to say everyones truth is suspect.
It's almost as though this thread was just to have a bit of fun with the two settings! If there's no way to use math and engineering to decide whether the setting with the Space Elves or the setting with the evil Space Wizards is technically, scientifically and objectively superior then the entire discussion is obviously bunk!
Yes! One side has been given the onus of having to provide scientifc proof of abilities on one side, while the other only has to point to a piece of fiction regardless of how far fetched the statement is. There were quite a few statements about how powerful IoM weaponry is, but when we look at how powerful via the sums proffered as evidence, they were so powerful they could not infact be seriously entertained. If every IoM ship had such planet busting weaponry then any battle taking place within a solar system, which lets face it has to be the case, because space is big and you have to have a meeting point, would trash the entire system. Nova Cannon = mini supernova, I really don't want to think about the side effects on a planet.
Rube - the company is Citadel MIniatures that is the important one (GW is a trading name), and no this is not arguiing a technicality - this is arguing whether someone has the *authority*, delegated or not, to decide what is Canon and what is not.
And as was pointed out by Andrew - canon is stated as being whatever players decide. Meaning there is no way to have a single, trusted and consistent basis for comparison.
The thread WAS to have a bit of fun, which then devolved into "Iom has HUUUUUGE weapons!!! Multi teraton yields!!! Rawrr!" to which, when you actually tried to put some numbers to, you find that theyre actually outputting numbers which require a million G2 stars in each and every ship....so arguing "who would win?" becomes an impossibility - the numbers are clearly made up for dramatic effect.
AndrewC wrote:GW never do as they can't really sue themselves and have never submitted to what is or is not canon, so what he says as an individual doesn't have to be defended/rebuffed
Well, he didn't say it as an individual;
"What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
'We' generally implies you're talking on behalf of a number of people, and he explictly mentions GW.
AndrewC wrote:This is the crux of the matter GW have given us tools in which to make up a story, ie the rules, codecii and armybooks. The quote itself calls out as canon whatever the player wants it to be, nothing else. But there are a few people out there who are demanding? that optional material via BL must be canon. Despite the statement above which tells us otherwise. My truth is better than your truth, so to speak, when GW have said that everyones truth is correct, well that can't be factually accurate so it would be better to say everyones truth is suspect.
I don't think either quote is saying that the player can choose what is canon. Everything is canon.
For example, a setting might contain a myth that purports several things to be true. That myth is canon. What the myth purports to be true is canon. The myth might still be factually wrong, even if it is canon.
Now imagine everything in 40k is a myth. It's all canon, but that doesn't make it factually true. You could have several myths that contradict one another. They're still all canon. The games we play are also myths, which is why we get to pick which of the canonical myths we're basing our myth off of!
/headache
AndrewC wrote:Yes! One side has been given the onus of having to provide scientifc proof of abilities on one side, while the other only has to point to a piece of fiction regardless of how far fetched the statement is. There were quite a few statements about how powerful IoM weaponry is, but when we look at how powerful via the sums proffered as evidence, they were so powerful they could not infact be seriously entertained. If every IoM ship had such planet busting weaponry then any battle taking place within a solar system, which lets face it has to be the case, because space is big and you have to have a meeting point, would trash the entire system. Nova Cannon = mini supernova, I really don't want to think about the side effects on a planet.
Both settings have outright magic! That's worse than any scientifically-silly super-cannon! I may be misremembering here, but doesn't Luke destroy a Star Destroyer with the Force at one point? During one of the later EU books?
I mean, the Imperium has access to the warp, which is literally magic. How do their guns work? They draw power from the realm of magic. There are possibly daemons involved.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Rube - the company is Citadel MIniatures that is the important one (GW is a trading name), and no this is not arguiing a technicality - this is arguing whether someone has the *authority*, delegated or not, to decide what is Canon and what is not.
And Citadel Miniatures is just a brand of Games Workshop. So is Black Library. They're just the same guys working together in an office in Nottingham.
For all we know Gascoigne was delegated to give this information out. Given that he potentially risked his job by giving this information out if he wasn't delegated to do it, he works for a division of Games Workshop, gave the information out on a Games Workshop authorised venue (the BL forums), explictly mentions GW in the statement, and his statement hasn't since been contradicted or retracted, I'd argue that he probably was given or always had the authority to say this!
I'm not sure what you were envisioning. Perhaps a lawyer or director giving a formal statement, accompanied by legal documents to verify his authorisation? ;P We're talking about clarifying what counts as canon to the few nerds like us who care about such things!
Rube wrote:Now imagine everything in 40k is a myth. It's all canon, but that doesn't make it factually true. You could have several myths that contradict one another. They're still all canon. The games we play are also myths, which is why we get to pick which of the canonical myths we're basing our myth off of!
That's all well and good, but if the information is contradictory, it should be inadmissable as supporting evidence in a debate, as it can not be substantiated as true. Instead, the IoM have made this material central to their case.
No, GW is the trade name for CM. Black library is not a division but wholly owned company. thus, legally, cannot make statements about the parent without delegated authority to do so, which we have no evidence of. Which was my point - your assumption is unsafe in this context.
It does affirm that NOTHING published by black library can be considered "safe" in this context, so no argument about the IoM being able to win based on black library can be considered safe.
No, the warp is not magic, just sufficiently different to appear so. sure a famous quote has just been bastardised there....
nosferatu1001 wrote:Xiophen - sorry, sounds like you are back pedalling. You repeatedly stated, in your post, that somehow it wasnt a torpedo but their antimatter pods exploding - at least have the decency to admit your error. 690GT is the stated yield of a PT, class 6, with class 10s able to mount an even bigger warhead. There is no known max yield for Quantum torpedos as they use vaccum (zero point) energy.
No its not it references the 1.5kg of antimatter then tells us about the anti matter pods being such and such then we have an assumption that it be 690 gton. but when compared to the rest of the text the shield strength the phaser strenght. Atorp of that magnitude would blow through the ent -d shields and ship as if the didnt exist. REmember visual evidence has shown that it takes multiple torps to destroy an unsheilded Galaxy class ship. the same book you and memoory alpha are trying to use to justify higher yeidls states that the ent D shield are only 3311 gw. the 64 megaton torp should blast through theses shields on a few torp hits a 690 torp would impact shields explode an still release a suffcient amout of energy to vape A galaxy class and still have several gtons worth of energy to expend based on the mass of the ship.
Given we never see this occur in any episode or movie and even the more powerful quantom torps never shows this performance leades to one conclusions. this is a Theoretical yield f the entire space of the torp war head was used for the war head. or this is akernal thrown out just for the heck of it. again i would except the theoretical explination of max torp yield pending on evidence that we ever see one of this power in use.
In addition, you DO need to admit your maths error, as you louldy proclaimed that "your maths sucks" (in reference to me) then proceeded to make 3 hideous errors yourself which totally destroy the validity of your calculation of IoM vessel speeds.
Yes My math only showed what the average speed that would be needed to cover 9 AU's in 93 minutes. In comparisons to your of only .5 c. My point was just a confirmation of near light speed shopwing the fact that they estimate travel time of 93 minutes shows that the .75 c speed is acheavable using the given quote. If you want we can work out the acceleration based on the presented information and your correct it roughly converts out to ~9/10 the speed of light. But I would assume thats their flank or after burner speed not thier combat speed.
In addition you will notice that Memory ALpha is a *canon* fan site - memory beta is "non canon" i.e. books etc. SO you are wrong on that point. You will notice the reference they made to the TNG tech manual.
its canon how? per paramount its not its a fan site how are you defining it as canon? So yeah Im right paramount being the legal owner of Star trek since roddenberry sold them those right and his estate only collects a royalty fee. Mean that technicall their stating that only the visual media is canon. Mean that If I was a prick *which Im not* I can refuse to accept it and the tech manual.
But again Im not going to because im not like some debators Im more then willingy to accept it as long as it can support the claim of 690 gton idea. Again as i meantioned above if we assume that value then the other values that would also be cannon causes a logic error which can not be resolved. I'm more then willing to conceed that the 690 could be the theoretical upper limit to photom torps. But due to the stated value of 64 megaton that that is the current weapon yeidls for the torps that is supported by all other cannon and in the same canon source.
Im more then willing to work with you on that value. I personal think given all other evidence its bs.
I'm willing to conceed the point if you can in a logical manner with support of canon can show how this is the torp yields and how it fits in with the other Shield values phaser values and general ship construsction values given in the same book. As well as the books own set max yield of 64 megatons
I do not have to disprove FTL sensors, you have to prove them. You have yet to do so. Your quotes, as I explained, can be shown to say either c or FTL class sensors - as the wording is not precise enough. I repeat: You have to prove your case, using persuasive evidence (as you are unlikely to have anythign conclusive ala ST and tachyon sensors), which you have yet to do so. Please find a statement, anywhere, which states that the images were received with no transmission delay. IF you cannot do that then BOTH c class and FTL class sensors are equally represented and therefore under Occam only C class sensors are allowed
Again: you have the burden of proof, and you have yet to meet it..
Okay you know this is gettin repetative you know lets walk through this again
start of action:
The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"
They detect the warp concordance and send ships to the thret location. now right now you can make 2 assumptions.
Your assumption:
the chaos fleet start ripping a hole into reality. 75 minutes later the IOm fleet detect it and send ships to investigate.
Fleet leaves and arrive on seen some 168 minutes later.
MY assumption: that Iom odes have FTL sensors. that they detect the disturbance immediatly and respond to the issue immediatly.
the send ships forward and are launching fighters to investigate 42 minutes after launch.
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.
Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power
The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.
Monkey wrench 2 in your assumptions this quote from the book states that in less then an hours time we see the chaos ships arriving from the warp. Whats more Inp[ortant is this description is onsight giving you a description of the event and to help it out we also see that the description tells us that the chaos ship are moving at what they consider is attack speed In universe
The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor
This is the nail In the coffin of your assumption here. This quote is the description of the sensor feed that the Iom ships were receiving. Again this is less then an hour after the intial receit of the message. we have already seen evidence that the Iom alreayd launched ships to engage the chaos fleet. We know from the book description this was done before the Chaos ships emerged from the Warp. We know in the following pages that the Iom fleet enageges the Chaos ships within a short time after they emerge from the Warp. near the concordance point and then fight a moving battle from the concordance to Heredor.
Just as a side note You could also argue communication ability as well as we know that the IOm fleet does send a distress call to the rest of the crusade. And by the end of the book ie same day time span we see the entire crusader fleet some 10,000 ships jump into the Heredor system and join the battle.
Lets face it the discovery and rescue Of An Imperial Saint stop the Motion of an Entire Crusade. * Not to meantion seeing her destroy a baneblade signle handedly is sweet.*
Now beyond that Ive yet to see evidence of TRek combat taking place at warp. WE can post a number of links in 3 sereis of inportance here that show STL combat through out the series. I think we need some evidence supporting trek FTL combat speed please.
Chris - he said, she said. What you have there is known as *hearsay*, not evidence.
In addition I also explained why BL stating something does not make CM bound to it, legally at least. And in addition they have stated they *make stuff up as they wish*, meaning that you cannot trust anytying, "canon" or not.
Lets help with this BL and citadel minatures are a subsidory Games workshop. Bl is the offical book arm of GW for all intents and purposes they are becoming more and more the controling arm of the fluff for Gw and thier games. A number of the Authors for BL are GW game designers. So its safe tio say marc gastongia *spell* *being an author and editor for BL* word saying that any and all fluff from codex, bl book, WD, etc made unde the gw logo is canon, and his explination is official for 40k.
FInally: "purest energy source" - actually the greatest source of energy is zero point / vacuum / quantum flux energy. Extracting energy directly from space/time itself. The vacuum energy in a glass of water is enough to boild every ocean on the planet and melt the crust. Extracting it - now thats the tricky part, but Quantum torpedos in ST use this, so they mmay work out (like fission warheads -> fssion reactors) how to turn a weapon to energy generation.
Yep you bet we see a quantom torp hit a borg cube and take out the entire solar system. from what we see on the quantom torp it seems to have a max yeild of 1 gton.
All we can say is IoM ships are big, cumbersome beasts with huge guns. ST ships are fast, nippy creatures with a penchant for using the deflector dish to solve every problem and a probability of failure of the transporters / warp drive / phasers / etc approaching 1 as narrative imperative approaches 1.
No all we can say is Iom ships are big massive ships that have superior weapons, armor, superior STL and FTl.. that yes your can say trek ships may be more manvuerable but like a jet fighter vs a propeller fighter the jet wins 99 out of 100 times. Because it can always dictate combat yes it might not have the same turn radius as the propeller but it can move at such speeds that its larger turn radius is done at a fast timing and can bedone in the same timing as the prop plane. Remember Speed kills is the adatage of see and air combat and it applies to space combat as well.
Again even if we give trek the 690 torp strneght it just means they have the possibility of hurting 40k vessels. The Iom still out everythings the feddies in every single facet of combat in this debate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
keezus wrote:
Rube wrote:Now imagine everything in 40k is a myth. It's all canon, but that doesn't make it factually true. You could have several myths that contradict one another. They're still all canon. The games we play are also myths, which is why we get to pick which of the canonical myths we're basing our myth off of!
That's all well and good, but if the information is contradictory, it should be inadmissable as supporting evidence in a debate, as it can not be substantiated as true. Instead, the IoM have made this material central to their case.
you take the evidence provided then you get a rough range the low end for the calcs then the spank end nd you take the middle ground
Alot of things are not really that contradictory, FTL speeds, Sensors despite nos's assumptions show ftl capability, communication does show ftl capabilities, ship sizes IOm sizes etc. the things where you get the big ranes is the armor, value void/power etc field values, Weapon values etc. thats you can get a good range on most sites have the weapons ranging from 610 gt stated value to Pton range from descriptions from bl novles and wepaon descriptions. the space cabilities acutally are easier to quantify then some of the ground or personal level weapons. seveal sites have done some good reviews of related fluff and achieved some decent ideas of the cal ranges. Stardestroyer.net, spacebattles, factpiles all have some good solid calculations going.
Again the fluff reason you can have contradictions is the differneing view point does allow for discrepencies.
Not using game rules to come up with hard number due to the fact that you averag marine per game rules is fractionally better then most any other amies trooper type when via fluff a singl sm could defeat a vast number of enemies. Exarchs are sargents in the game rules while via fluff an exarch has shown on a number of occasions to be supperior to sm captains. Librarians via fluff are normally alpha plus psykers and can wipe out cities. we have a beta level psyker destroying a leviathin. In game the librarian is neat and getting better but he still iscan be killed by most anything.
Game rules are designed to be fair for all parties not to show a true fluff showing.
Firstly: PLEASE use Capital Letters, please. It helps make your posts slightly more legible.
xiophen42 wrote:
No its not it references the 1.5kg of antimatter then tells us about the anti matter pods being such and such then we have an assumption that it be 690 gton.
NO.
It states that it has 1.5Kg of AM, and THEN states that it HOWEVER explodes with the FORCE OF AN AM POD EXPLODING.
So, in other words the 64MT (which, btw, is NOT canon, it is simply a real world calculation - an error you keep on making.) is a real world thing - however that is not the canon figure. The CANON is that the explosion is akin to an AM pod explosion. This is then calculated to 690GTon.
So you are wrong, yet again.
xiophen42 wrote: but when compared to the rest of the text the shield strength the phaser strenght. Atorp of that magnitude would blow through the ent -d shields and ship as if the didnt exist. REmember visual evidence has shown that it takes multiple torps to destroy an unsheilded Galaxy class ship. the same book you and memoory alpha are trying to use to justify higher yeidls states that the ent D shield are only 3311 gw. the 64 megaton torp should blast through theses shields on a few torp hits a 690 torp would impact shields explode an still release a suffcient amout of energy to vape A galaxy class and still have several gtons worth of energy to expend based on the mass of the ship.
Please explain the greater than 1million sun output of a 12km^3 ship using JUST fusion reactions.
Please explain how the shields are >1million times more powerful than the biggest weapons.
You have yet to do so.
xiophen42 wrote:Given we never see this occur in any episode or movie and even the more powerful quantom torps never shows this performance leades to one conclusions. this is a Theoretical yield f the entire space of the torp war head was used for the war head. or this is akernal thrown out just for the heck of it. again i would except the theoretical explination of max torp yield pending on evidence that we ever see one of this power in use.
No, that is not the conclusion, as you are not told that: you are told it is the same as an AM pod exploding, you can derive the density of liquid deuterium (known), the size of an AM pod (Known) and you can then derive the size of the explosion.
So the *canon* is the description that it explodes with the force of an AM pod; this then works out as 690GTon. I would suggest reading things slightly more closely, as you keep misreading these things...
xiophen42 wrote:Yes My math only showed what the average speed that would be needed to cover 9 AU's in 93 minutes.
Except, as I pointed out, the IoM ship would not have to cover 9AUs. You forgot that the Chaos ships would be moving towards the planet as well...which I pointed out.
xiophen42 wrote: In comparisons to your of only .5 c. My point was just a confirmation of near light speed shopwing the fact that they estimate travel time of 93 minutes shows that the .75 c speed is acheavable using the given quote.
See above. Your agregious error (you forgot, twice now, that there are two fleets) means your result is meaningless.
Come back with better figures, once you work out where the midpoint would be (not the middle as they start out with unequal speeds)
xiophen42 wrote:
If you want we can work out the acceleration based on the presented information and your correct it roughly converts out to ~9/10 the speed of light. But I would assume thats their flank or after burner speed not thier combat speed.
That is correct assuming that the IoM fleet moves the full 9AU. But as I have proven it does not....so I'd suggest recalculating, once you have corrected the 3 errors you made.
xiophen42 wrote:its canon how? per paramount its not its a fan site how are you defining it as canon?
Because of the existence of memory beta, mainly.
xiophen42 wrote: So yeah Im right paramount being the legal owner of Star trek since roddenberry sold them those right and his estate only collects a royalty fee. Mean that technicall their stating that only the visual media is canon. Mean that If I was a prick *which Im not* I can refuse to accept it and the tech manual.
ANd yet we CAN reject the entirety of 40k figures as unsubstantiated, made up rubbish.
Because the guy from BL said it was.
xiophen42 wrote:But again Im not going to because im not like some debators Im more then willingy to accept it as long as it can support the claim of 690 gton idea. Again as i meantioned above if we assume that value then the other values that would also be cannon causes a logic error which can not be resolved. I'm more then willing to conceed that the 690 could be the theoretical upper limit to photom torps. But due to the stated value of 64 megaton that that is the current weapon yeidls for the torps that is supported by all other cannon and in the same canon source.
Im more then willing to work with you on that value. I personal think given all other evidence its bs.
Except, as pointed out, it is NOT CANON. Got that? The 64MT is NOT CANON. It is a *calculated figure* based on the presence of 1.5KG AM, but it is NOT THE YIELD (in terms of "explodes like an AM pod" that is given.
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
Understand now?
xiophen42 wrote: I'm willing to conceed the point if you can in a logical manner with support of canon can show how this is the torp yields and how it fits in with the other Shield values phaser values and general ship construsction values given in the same book. As well as the books own set max yield of 64 megatons
Unfortunately you have to accept the 690GT as the canon answer, sorry.
You have to still explain the MASSIVE probvlems with the 40k ships though.
xiophen42 wrote:Okay you know this is gettin repetative you know lets walk through this again
start of action:
The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"
They detect the warp concordance and send ships to the thret location. now right now you can make 2 assumptions.
Your assumption:
the chaos fleet start ripping a hole into reality. 75 minutes later the IOm fleet detect it and send ships to investigate.
Fleet leaves and arrive on seen some 168 minutes later.
You're right, this is tiresome, as you continually ignore / misrepresent my argument.
If you woudl, for a change, go back and reread the posts you would see that I agreed that an A'path DOES sense FTL - we KNOW they do. I have NEVER debated this.
So please correct your incorrect statement. Or, you can claim you are not incorrect, despite this being blindfingly obvious...
xiophen42 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.
Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power
1) No, you have no proof they were moving before they emerge - nothing. Again, stop making things up that the text does not support, and you may have an argument.
xiophen42 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.
Monkey wrench 2 in your assumptions this quote from the book states that in less then an hours time we see the chaos ships arriving from the warp. Whats more Inp[ortant is this description is onsight giving you a description of the event and to help it out we also see that the description tells us that the chaos ship are moving at what they consider is attack speed In universe
Again, you are reading things into the text that are not there.
1) Nothing states this is from an observer on the original planet.
2) In fact nothing states the position of the observer at all, or that this observer even exists "for real".
In other words - your "proof" simply shows a cinematic warp tear openming up. Nothing more.
In simple terms: your continual attempts to make things up doesnt help your argument.
xiophen42 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor
This is the nail In the coffin of your assumption here. This quote is the description of the sensor feed that the Iom ships were receiving. Again this is less then an hour after the intial receit of the message. we have already seen evidence that the Iom alreayd launched ships to engage the chaos fleet. We know from the book description this was done before the Chaos ships emerged from the Warp. We know in the following pages that the Iom fleet enageges the Chaos ships within a short time after they emerge from the Warp. near the concordance point and then fight a moving battle from the concordance to Heredor.
Yes, they launched once they detected a warp incursion iwth a chaos signature.
Your nails are imaginary, as is your proof.
Note that, in your quote above, nothing STATES they receivc this image with no delay? Please point out wher it does so.
Stop. Making. Stuff. Up.
xiophen42 wrote:Just as a side note You could also argue communication ability as well as we know that the IOm fleet does send a distress call to the rest of the crusade. And by the end of the book ie same day time span we see the entire crusader fleet some 10,000 ships jump into the Heredor system and join the battle.
Lets face it the discovery and rescue Of An Imperial Saint stop the Motion of an Entire Crusade. * Not to meantion seeing her destroy a baneblade signle handedly is sweet.*
Sigh. Reading comphrension failure for the loss.
Again, I have NEVER stated that they do not have "FTL" comms - they do; via the warp. However, ify ou had actually read my posts a little more carefully you would have seen that I contended they have never shown any *non-warp* FTL-comms capability. In fact there are many mentions of "years" for a non-Apath distress signal to reach other worlds, conslusively proving if they DO have FTL non-AP comms they dont actually use them for distress signals. Which is slightly dumb...and if they DO have FTL comms why use the less reliable A'paths?
You like to bang on about logic, yet have shown a credible lack of it in your treatment of 40k...
xiophen42 wrote:Now beyond that Ive yet to see evidence of TRek combat taking place at warp. WE can post a number of links in 3 sereis of inportance here that show STL combat through out the series. I think we need some evidence supporting trek FTL combat speed please.
Sigh. Sorry, after 18 pages of this I am not doing your work for you.
There have been at least 3 links to FTL combat. Go find them. If you keep asking for items that people in the thread have already given, you will be reported as a troll. Your inabilty to use a search is really, REALLY not "our" problem.
xiophen42 wrote:Lets help with this BL and citadel minatures are a subsidory Games workshop.
Again. Wrong.
Citadel miniatures owns Games Workshop. end of.
xiophen42 wrote: Bl is the offical book arm of GW for all intents and purposes they are becoming more and more the controling arm of the fluff for Gw and thier games. A number of the Authors for BL are GW game designers. So its safe tio say marc gastongia *spell* *being an author and editor for BL* word saying that any and all fluff from codex, bl book, WD, etc made unde the gw logo is canon, and his explination is official for 40k.
No, it isnt actually. And I have explained why. Continue to ignore if you like, doesnt make you right.
And also you conveniently ignore that, if you DO accept what he states as gospel then nothing you have cited so far can be trusted *at all* as they freely admit they make things up.
So all you quotes prove nothing. absolutely nothing. they make stuff up meaning you cannot trust anything you have quoted as being anything like the truth. It is all a narrative convenience
xiophen42 wrote:Yep you bet we see a quantom torp hit a borg cube and take out the entire solar system. from what we see on the quantom torp it seems to have a max yeild of 1 gton.
Note how I said there was no theoretical limit? as opposed to "has been used in series"?
xiophen42 wrote:No all we can say is Iom ships are big massive ships that have superior weapons, armor, superior STL and FTl..
Nope, you can say nothing of the sort, as they make stuff up and nothing is the "truth" in any BL publication, ever - meaning you have not got a leg to stand on, when it comes to making a comparision.
xiophen42 wrote:Again even if we give trek the 690 torp strneght it just means they have the possibility of hurting 40k vessels. The Iom still out everythings the feddies in every single facet of /
combat in this debate.
Wrong again, biut at least you're being consistent.
Unless you can find a way to compare 40k and ST, whcih does not rely on BL fluff which is known to be full of "lies" , you are done as far as an argument goes.
Everyone else has realised a comparison is not possible (as in case youve forgotten, they make stuff up for 40k) excpet you...
xiophen42 wrote:Alot of things are not really that contradictory, FTL speeds, Sensors despite nos's assumptions show ftl capability, communication does show ftl capabilities, ship sizes IOm sizes etc. the things where you get the big ranes is the armor, value void/power etc field values, Weapon values etc. thats you can get a good range on most sites have the weapons ranging from 610 gt stated value to Pton range from descriptions from bl novles and wepaon descriptions. the space cabilities acutally are easier to quantify then some of the ground or personal level weapons. seveal sites have done some good reviews of related fluff and achieved some decent ideas of the cal ranges. Stardestroyer.net, spacebattles, factpiles all have some good solid calculations going.
That's great. Please explain to me how IoM capital ships can be destroyed with IoM torpedoes when it can survive a hit from Pton range weapon, where 1 PT is the power output of 0.05 suns over 1s. These same calculations that you are hanging your hat on show that torpedoes are 10E+15x (that's a million billions times for you laypersons out there) weaker than a novacannon (0.1 suns). Using any kind of common sense, one would have to conclude that one of the following scenarios exists:
1. The yield spread between torpedoes and nova canons is grossly inflated
2. The void shields absorb most of the novacannon hit and the armor resistance of the ship is grossly inflated
The IoM defense seems to hinge on the fact that they are assumed to be SO far beyond the raw power yields of the UFP that this doesn't need to be defined, but we're talking a difference in magnitude of 10E+15x. If the second scenario is correct, the UFP may only be underpowered by as little as 10x if superweapon class devices are held to the same computational rigeur that the IoM supporters demand.
I'd also like to submit that while the IoM ships are able to traverse great distances by bypassing normal space, I do not think they travel FTL in the conventional sense. Finally your sensors example is one that IMO demonstrates reciept of instataneous telemetry, but only in a very narrow sense as it involves an astropath detecting a warp exit, which the astropath is specifically in-tune to detect. It doesn't actually provide any more information than that.
No, GW is the trade name for CM. Black library is not a division but wholly owned company. thus, legally, cannot make statements about the parent without delegated authority to do so, which we have no evidence of. Which was my point - your assumption is unsafe in this context.
It does affirm that NOTHING published by black library can be considered "safe" in this context, so no argument about the IoM being able to win based on black library can be considered safe.
No, the warp is not magic, just sufficiently different to appear so. sure a famous quote has just been bastardised there....
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Citadel, the Citadel logo, 'Eavy Metal, Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, Space Marine, Warhammer, Warmaster, and all other marks appearing on this site (unless otherwise indicated) are trade marks of Games Workshop Ltd.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as pointed out, it is NOT CANON. Got that? The 64MT is NOT CANON. It is a *calculated figure* based on the presence of 1.5KG AM, but it is NOT THE YIELD (in terms of "explodes like an AM pod" that is given.
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
Understand now?
Unfortunately you have to accept the 690GT as the canon answer, sorry.
Dude, settle down on the nerd rage. You've been treating this whole thread as a flame war from the very beginning.
His argument seems pretty sound to me. If the values given are true, then a single torpedo would annihilate a Galaxy-class starship several times over. This never, ever happens in any canon material (or even non-canon, as far as I know). If you can discard 40k fluff for small contradictions (by the way, do you have any examples?), then you should be willing to acknowledge this gigantic logic disconnect. That is, unless your argument boils down to "a wizard did it", in which case "our wizards have super wizard armor on, so nyah!"
xiophen42 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.
Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power
1) No, you have no proof they were moving before they emerge - nothing. Again, stop making things up that the text does not support, and you may have an argument.
Um, what proof do you have that they weren't? How would you interpret the following narrative flow:
"Hey gang, what's that in the distance? Zoinks, pirate ghosts!"
Shaggy drops the doob, cranks up the the Mystery Van, and begins accelerating down the road.
"Boo!" exclaims the spooky pirate ghost as it appears out of nowhere in front of the van.
Did the spooky pirate ghost appear before or after Shaggy dropped the doob?
Again. Wrong.
Citadel miniatures owns Games Workshop. end of.
Citadel miniatures no longer exists as a company, but is a trademarked brand of Games Workshop. You can't distinguish Citadel Miniatures (initially funded by GW, but later bought out the original founders) and Games Workshop (which became the name of the newly merged corporate entity.. the stock exchange lists GW, not Citadel). From the Black Library site's legal info, it reads: "Black Library is a division of Games Workshop." Their address is the same as Games Workshop. They publish artbooks, novels, and other books related to Games Workshop's IP. So we have a bunch of guys working in the same offices, and one guy is in charge of the division that churns out the stories and art, and he issues a statement on what they consider canon or not. Seems like until this is overruled or corrected by someone higher up the food chain, his opinion on what is considered canon should count just a tiny bit more than yours.
Likewise, the majority of your argument seems to stem from Memory Beta, which is a non-canon source both according to Paramount (the IP holders) and the wiki itself. Look at the title: "Memory Beta, non-canon Star Trek Wiki".
Terminus, xiophen, you are both making the same assumption here. And I could be guilty of the same thing.
If BL went bust, would GW go down with it and responsible for their debts? No. BL is a division of GW, but is not GW. They publish art, fiction and other books based on GW IP, but the source of that is from independent authors submitting various media. GWas far as I am aware, has never commissioned a book. Caveat, as far as I am aware
Canon. The guy in charge of that division is the employee of the division, not the parent company. GW IP is the property of GW not BL so the division is never able to speak on behalf of the parent company, because he does not own the IP. To expand, does GW have the right to change Lord of the Rings or make a call on what happens in/to middle earth? No, same case here. The source IP belongs to the Tolkien Estate and or New Line etc. GW can proffer their vision of it, but it is not middle earth.
BL have offered us their vision of 40K, but as GW has not endorsed it, BL vision is not 40K canon. We're splitting hairs here I know but please bear with me. The purest vision of the 40K universe can only be found in 40K rules, codecii, armybooks (hereafter known as 40Krca) BL have stated, and GW as well, that what fiction is published can be factually false, true, misleading or all three. We cannot know which is which. For example, lets say a somali pirate fires an gun at a ship 600m long, a fisherman sees this and also witnesses the ship disappear in a huge fireball of flame, he later discovers bits of burned ship hull 100s of miles away. BL fiction is written in this manner, Marc Gascoigne refers to it in his statement. Now the proponents of 40KIoM weaponry canon would feverishly work out how much energy would be required to completely destroy aforementioned ship and throw a large chunk of metal 200 miles away, then loudly proclaim IoM weapons badass. When in fact the fisherman saw an RPG fired at an oil tanker loaded with refined petrochemicals, and the wreckage he saw had nothing to do with the explosion. The fiction is all first hand accounts (according to the above sources BL&GW), written as a factual story. We cannot trust the source material without 'scientific' proof, which is what I and others have been requesting.
In order to settle a debate like this there has to be an agreement on both sides to either;
a. Any material from source or licenced/officially affiliated sources be accepted as true and factual, or
b. Any and all assertions must be backed up by explanations of their conclusions by hard fact(ie known to us by scientific knowledge of today, including extrapolations eg an explosion has a rating of x units of energy assuming we could contain such energy).
Until both sides can agree on that simple choice then we get nowhere.
To the OP, as has been provided by Rube, the story of 40K is what you want it to be. Several pages ago I said that no-one would win. Going by recent developments, campaigns and general critism of GW that is how their story is going to.
Same crap, different day.
Andrew
Gents (and ladies if there are any participating in this discussion, some of the user names could be either) I think I will bow out of this one.
Good night.
Trust the Emperor
Live long and prosper
Terminus - "most" of my arguments are from memory beta?
Uh, no. Yields, ranges and sensors are all from memory alpha. FTL combat was from tghe TV series. WOuld you like to quantify "most"? Would be more helpful than your post as it stands....
Ina ddition: the previous page it describes the A'path detecnig the chaos fleet. The IoM fleet then moves out "to the advised modulus" - so, after they detect and pinpoint where the fleet is coming from, they send the fleet there.
ALL of that is done using the Apaths, not real space sensors. NOTHING states that *real space* sensors work FTL - which is the point.
You have FTL sensors in the form of Apath, but they are ONLY ever shown as detecting fleet emergence from the Warp.
Nowehere do they show FTL real space sensors - nowhere. Nothing in the quoted entries prove FTL sensors, as I have explaned. You can ignore it if you want, but until you can come up with something persuasive, which you have yet to do, IoM has , like their comms, c-class real space sensors.
Klawz - the 40K yields cannot be accepted because you have been told that BLlies for narrative effect. They make things up.
In any case, both universes have layers of BS heaped on them for "narrative effect". I mean hell, a few pages ago you made a claim along the lines of "the Star Trek ships suck on screen compared to their stats for extra drama!"
So really, this whole argument does boil down to "my wizard can beat up your wizard", which makes the high tempers flying around that much more amusing.
Oh whoops, better drop that line of thought; last time I made a veiled suggestion that people take their fictional universe too seriously I got a week suspension.
Nosferatu: You are not going to win this arguement regarding torpedoes. It is clearly indicated on Memory Alpha that the technical manuals are not canon but are allowed as reference materials by the site maintainers. 64MT seems to be a perfectly reasonable yield characteristic for a photon torpedo.
terminus/klawz: Please stop evading the issue. You guys are up in arms with a 1000x disparity in demonstrated power vs. reputed power of photon torpedoes. However, you claim contradictions from GW canon such as: Ships survive nova/lance hits but can be taken down by torpedoes (10E+15x discrepancy) is a minor issue? The ship can't be both super durable AND succeptable to the weaker weapons at the same time.
Terminus - go back a few pages. They admit that the stories are myths, fiction within the universe, made up for effect whenever they want - so you cannot seperate "true" from "lie" within the universe; my contention is the person saying that doesnt have the intrinsic authority to say it (they dont) for all of CM, but it DOES mean BL fluff cannot be relied upon.
I was saying that the reason you see point blank fights is, frankly, visual effect - as no other reason is given. You know they have the capability, just it isnt always expressed. Apparently bringing in the differences between novel and visual narrative forms is too much of a leap of credibility.
Keezus - the 64MT yield is not, however, the yield as explained on screen ("like an AM pod rupturing"), just a calculation based on the physical amount of AM in the warhead. You "know" this yield cannot be 64MT as the yield can be altered - the level 1 to 10. Meaning that they have to have someway of altering how "explosive" it is, which a straight e=mc2 calculation would not do.
ST:TNG Tech Manual pg 129- "While the maximum payload of antimatter in a standard photon torpedo is only about 1.5k, the released energy per time unit is actually greater than that calculated for a Galaxy class antimatter pod rupture."
All this is saying is that the rate of detonation is much higher than an antimatter pod due to all the measures they have taken to construct the fastest, most efficient detonation they can out of the given amount of antimatter, not that the actual yield of detonation is larger. It's not that the explosion is any bigger, it just happens faster as it is designed to explode as a weapon where the anti-matter pods are not.
Now if you want to know the actual yield of a torpedo, and can translate the the numbers, it states two figures under the auto destruct section for the ship(pg 141):
"...providing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly the equivilant of 1000 photon torpedos."
"The release yield of the secondary system is calculated to be 10^9 megajoules, roughly equivilant to 500 photon torpedos."
All this is a moot argument though as all the Federation has to do is transport an away team onto an Imperium ship, and all the personel on board would fall to the decks laughing uncontrollably at the Federation uniforms. The away team can then dispatch the crew at thier leisure.
@Maelstrom: The Technical Manuals are stated as being non canon, so the best that can be done is through a straight conversion, though more reasonable minds might conclude that the torpedoes output could be enriched to increase yield by at least a factor of 10.
I think that transporting tribbles into the IoM ship's food stores would have a more satisfying effect.
And they'd probably just eat the tribbles anyway, I doubt guardsmen are too pick when it comes to food rations...or not allowed to be too picky at least
As for transporting onto IoM ships - they would get heavily confused as there were no nice, brightly lit corridors with helpful "this way to critical ships systems" terminals on every wall
keezus wrote:Nosferatu: You are not going to win this arguement regarding torpedoes. It is clearly indicated on Memory Alpha that the technical manuals are not canon but are allowed as reference materials by the site maintainers. 64MT seems to be a perfectly reasonable yield characteristic for a photon torpedo.
terminus/klawz: Please stop evading the issue. You guys are up in arms with a 1000x disparity in demonstrated power vs. reputed power of photon torpedoes. However, you claim contradictions from GW canon such as: Ships survive nova/lance hits but can be taken down by torpedoes (10E+15x discrepancy) is a minor issue? The ship can't be both super durable AND succeptable to the weaker weapons at the same time.
Note that I did not dispute that there are factual errors/lies/whatever you want to call them, I just asked for a few examples. I haven't followed every post of this colossal thread, so I'm not familiar with this contradiction. What are the yields of the individual weapons? I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.
So again, this battle would be decided by resources and numbers. Lets throw out all these technobabble arguments, and say that their shields and weapons are identical in strength and the Federation can zip around at warp owning face. Let's ignore the fact that Imperial ships are several times larger, and that it often takes Federation ships multiple torpedoes to take out much smaller ships. The average Galaxy-class ship carries 250 torpedoes, right? So let's say each torpedo killed one IoM ship and their phasers kill another 250. So each Federation ship could destroy 500 Imperial ships, and they'd still be outnumbered thousands to one. All it would take is a few Thunderhawks to slip by and it's game over. When it comes to planetary invasion, the Imperium is hard to top. Finally, guess what happens when thousands, if not millions of people are all dying horribly in one place?
Terminus wrote:I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.
Going back over Ivan's numbers (wherever they came from) seem to indicate that Torps are in the 2.9PT range - my mistake. This changes things around the other way, considering that now the Novacannon at 22PTs, which is partially deflected by the void shields now seems woefully inadequate, considreing that torps are fired in large quantities. Weapon batteries should be useless considering they fire in the 10GT range, but they are also known to damage enemy ships. So... to recap the info from Ivan's post:
Void shields operate at a sustained output in the neighbourhood of 10E+6 yellow dwarf stars.
Novacannons output at (22PT) fire at 0.1 yellow dwarf stars/s
IoM torpedoes have a yield of (3PT) have a yield of just over 0.01 yellow dwarf stars/s
Weapon batteries (10GT) are 2 million times weaker than a novacannon and 0.3 million times weaker than a torpedo.
Adamantium armor is back calculated from expected damage from incoming weapons fire.
Given that all the above listed weapons can (and have) eventually destroy an IoM ship... we have the following immediate problems:
1. Void shield value would seem to indicate that it would overpower everything except torps, which it is stated not to stop. This suggests that the void shield value is greatly overstated.
2. Void shield reduced novacannons are either not stopped much or they'd be not much more effective than torpedoes. The fluff does not support this view, as the Novacannon is regarded to be much more powerful than torpedoes, therefore, one might conclude that the some combination of the following has occured: Void shield value overstated, Novacannon understated, Torpedo overstated. Given the above issue with the void shield value, one might suggest that both the void shield value is overstated, and the torpedo statistic is overstated.
3. Weapon batteries power can damage capital ships at 10GT. This one is really problematic, as weapons batteries (while firing 1000's of shots) are vastly underpowered AND stopped by void shields. This also supports the assumption that void shields are vastly overstated, and also supports the assumption that torpedoes are overstated, as they cause damage after ignoring void shields. It stands to reason that weapons batteries should be more powerful than torpedoes as they must bypass shields.
4. Using weapons batteries as a baseline, at the stated 10GT/shot, assuming continuous broadside fire (assuming 2000 guns @ rate of one shot / 5 seconds) and using a 2 week timeframe indicated in a previous post, they would have fired 484 billion shells with a cumulative 4838.4PT damage. Of course, an unknown quantity is stopped by the shields. Assuming they are 75% stopped, this would mean that 403 torpedoes would have the same effect, and an IoM capital ship would have a damage capacity of 1613PT.
Of course, we run into the issues with torpedoes having 1% sun output numbers, novacannons firing 10% sun's output, and the ludicrous numbers of shells fired. Given Ivan's assumption of each shell being 5m^3 in space - 484 billion shells would take up 24.2km^3, which is somewhat more than the size of the ship firing them... and that's if the entire volume of the ship were made up of shell space... but we all know that 1000's of shells are continously fired over huge periods of time, so we have no recourse but to lower the size of the shells, and uh... raise the yield on them some arbitrary amount...
So in conclusion, I'd like to submit that based on the information I have, nothing can be determined about the veracity of the IoM claims other than they seem saturated by this "bs" that you describe.
Within context of those numbers, the stated value of the void shields is just as silly as this theoretical yield of proton torpedoes. Mentality, resources, and sheer numbers decide this battle.
Terminus wrote:Within context of those numbers, the stated value of the void shields is just as silly as this theoretical yield of proton torpedoes. Mentality, resources, and sheer numbers decide this battle.
Considering that the quantity of numbers that the IoM can muster is also an unknown value outside the "millions of worlds", "countless soldiers" and "immense industrial capacity" claims... What does that even mean? Does having "millions of planets" mean that the navy contains some integer multipe of "millions of planets" ships? It better have - otherwise, how will it transport, supply and feed the untold legions of the IoM (- obviously, they MUST supply billions of soldiers from each planet and have X navy support, regardless if the world is a primitive one, a death world, agricultural, a survey station, a forgeworld etc....)
Everything about the IoM is so wrapped in hyperbole with no way of quantifying any of their assets. That's like saying that ManBearPig can beat an ewok in hand to hand, because he is known to be bigger - nevermind that none of his other stats are known, nor does he have enough screentime to determine anything.
Terminus wrote:Note that I did not dispute that there are factual errors/lies/whatever you want to call them, I just asked for a few examples. I haven't followed every post of this colossal thread, so I'm not familiar with this contradiction. What are the yields of the individual weapons? I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.
So again, this battle would be decided by resources and numbers. Lets throw out all these technobabble arguments, and say that their shields and weapons are identical in strength and the Federation can zip around at warp owning face. Let's ignore the fact that Imperial ships are several times larger, and that it often takes Federation ships multiple torpedoes to take out much smaller ships. The average Galaxy-class ship carries 250 torpedoes, right? So let's say each torpedo killed one IoM ship and their phasers kill another 250. So each Federation ship could destroy 500 Imperial ships, and they'd still be outnumbered thousands to one. All it would take is a few Thunderhawks to slip by and it's game over. When it comes to planetary invasion, the Imperium is hard to top. Finally, guess what happens when thousands, if not millions of people are all dying horribly in one place?
And here I promised to bow out.
keezus; I did follow through on another thread and read through the mammoth block of research and math an individual by the name of Connor did. Though I did not fully understand some of , who am I kidding? most of, the math I would not say that it was done with any intent of deception. His descriptions and sources were all named and referenced. The underlying problem there was the source. Ie fiction. It was accepted that what was written was factually true and worked up from there.
Terminus; To throw an example of the contradictions;
Ship batteries, in a significant proportion of the books it is represented that the loading mechanism of the ship guns is manpower. But it would appear, using the proffered cruising speed of .75c during combat, that the normal BFG turn length is 1/10th of a second. (Can't complain SF Battles used to 1/30th, don't know what it is now), weapons ranges in the damocles series was only 1000s of km. In one short story from a 40K compilation, aiming, apparently was by telescope. These are the examples that stand out for me.
Ammo, food, fuel and repairs are never adequately explained or supported in BFG, SF because it was 'near future' has had this scope of items examined by the writers and addressed accordingly. They have stated ammo bays. Fuel is quantifiably listed etc.
All these are held against one side and ignored by the other.
I think it had been agreed in an earlier thread that SF had around 40,000 capital ships, IoM was kind of topped out at around 750,000ish of warp capable combat vessels. So odds were around 20:1. If Ivan is still around he may be able to confirm/deny.
I zone out of here for just a few days when I thought it was dieing out.....I come back to this. In all honesty, I have to express surprise that nothing has happened to Nosferatu at this point, especially if Terminus did receive a week's suspension. In all seriousness dude, it's kind of frustrating to read you beating down on others, especially considering they have never done anything to you. I kept quiet on it when I was debating you, as it would become an ad hominem fallacy on my part, but since you're focusing on xiophen, I feel like I have to say that I must ask why you put down others heavily. No one has acted the way you do in this thread, and I know that I at least did my best to avoid talking down to you.
I also have to say that in all honesty, it seems that the 690 gigaton figure is a bit inflated. More importantly, we have to remember that even though Memory Alpha is a canon wiki, it IS a wiki. I would use it the same way I use wikipedia with school projects: a general resource, that I use to learn basic facts before finding true quotes to back up my argument. You can't quote memory alpha to prove your argument, just as you can't quote wikipedia to prove an argument.
Hmmm, Andrew I think the 40,000 starship estimation is a bit over the top......I'd like to link you to a bit of analysis by Mike Wong @ stardestroyer.net. (Yes, I know I quote him a lot, but his analysis of Star Trek tech, weapons and industy seem to be one of the more detailed things available, and no one here has complained about it yet ) http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Industry/Industry1.html If anyone is interested, the link is a discussion in depth of Star Trek industrial output, and I think it might be useful in this debate. For the tl;dr people,
The Federation dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on DS9 in an attempt to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war. This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. This is also consistent with dialogue from Way of the Warrior which established that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships. The Federation fleet would logically be of similar or smaller size, because the Klingon fleet has a significant proportion of very small BOP-class warships, while the Federation fleet tends to consist of larger vessels, which were usually several hundred metres in length or more.
This is the key part of the analysis that is important here I believe.
As for canon, I do remember that GW has declared that anything with the 40k logo on it is canon, but not all that is canon is true. Otherwise, I would use the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and say that an Imperial Guardsmen could kill everything on a planet with almost nothing.
I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.
Frazzled wrote:I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.
I wasn't suggesting that all the ships would be used all at the one time, just the scale of total forces on either side.
I still think that the winner of this is the humble runabout.
Cloaked, Metaphasic shields, Weapons Pod and four transphasic torpedos = one dead IoM ship.
Chris - I went through an d line by line refuted an argument, provided supporting evidence repeatedly despite it having been provided in the thread multiple times, showed how they were reaching unsupported conclusions etc.......and when told "woah dude your math sucks" [not an exact quote, to many pages back now] I then pointed out the big flaws with their figures. Please report my posts if you feel the need is there.
Anyways - back to topic...
Frazzled - i think the scenario cooked up had the IoM free of all other threats, where presumably they could attempt to focus fire on the UFP.
My big issue with that idea is that the administratum seems incapable of organsing anything on a smaller scale than "years" - they just dont have the ability, from the fluff (which we know is not accurate) to deal with the huge logistics of changing fleet movements in any short periods of time.
This is one area that the UFP is considerably more advanced in - better computnig, better and more reliable communication (their FTL comms bandwitdh is huge compared to the IoM. Ref being able to send personal messages compared to IoM...) abilities, and also having physically smaller ships and personnel requirements.
Noone has debated that a few ships getting through = a dead planet. However knowing how long fleets take to arrive in orbit gives plenty of scope for localised destruction of IoM fleets - only by perfectly combining a coordinated attack on every planet (and how do you know hte scale of the UFP?) can you escape this. WIth both the known vageries of warp travel, comms problems AND the *known fact* that timekeeping is not a trivial exercise (actually one area 40k has it right - keeping something as "simple" seeming as accurate time across sector distances IS tricky) [ref: likely error time codes on all time stamped messages, based on NTP hierarchy essentially where terra == direct attached atomic clock] makes this seems a highly improbable event.
Yeah we are. Frazzled, I think a couple pages back we agreed that the rules were that each faction did not have to worry about its traditional enemies, and could focus fully on their opponent in this debate. This applies to both factions, so the Federation has no Romulans, Borg or Dominion to worry about. And the Imperium has no Chao raiders, Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, etc. etc. etc. to worry about.
Also, Andrew I do object to the combined ship count of 30,000 vessels. The analysis link I provided proposes a fleet size of a thousand to two thousand, and given what we've seen of full out war, I think that is a more realistic fleet size, compared to 30k.
Frazzled wrote:I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.
Thats not nec the truth the IOM amassed 10,000 ship in the sabatte worlds Crusades Featured in the Gaunts ghost series. That capaign funnily enough took place over a space simular in size to what we see the Feddies occupy.
They amassed several hundred for the battle of maccrage during the behemouth invasion.
The 3rd armegeadon battle had several hundred to thousand ammased to protect the planet.
And We know several Hundred took part in the gothic sector war.
and thousnads participated in the 13th black crusade.
Without opponenets the IOM could field thousands of ships in a short period of time if they new they had to fight the Federation the feddies would be in trouble because the Federation space is also covered by dozens if not hundreds of IOM sectors.
Each sectors going to have 50 - 75 ships per sector with anywhere from 20 - 30 capitial level ships with 30 - 40 escort class ships.
ChrisWWII wrote:Also, Andrew I do object to the combined ship count of 30,000 vessels. The analysis link I provided proposes a fleet size of a thousand to two thousand, and given what we've seen of full out war, I think that is a more realistic fleet size, compared to 30k.
Hey, I didn't make the figure up, that was the figure given when this discussion came around in Jan/Feb.
One thing I did notice was a lot of the word assume, estimate and if. Please see Asherians post at the top of the page.
Are we assuming the imperium is under attack by all the other 40k races? Because if not they'd crush the UFP. If so, then in all fairness the UFP should be under attack as well.
I can't believe that this topic is still going, can't believe nos is still trolling, and can't believe frazzled is still allowing it to continue/modding people who refute his easily defeatable claims...
based on your "years to plan" claim nos, you gladly handed victory to the Imperium. As you have stated, they would not trickle in, but plan for a very long time and strike at once. You conceded that only a few ships getting through would spell doom. Put that together, and you have an attack that takes many years to coordinate, and then punches through with numbers. The UFP would not have any idea that they were ever coming, as the warp would be used. Also, the UFP has never, EVER, had a single clue about their foes. EVERY SINGLE WAR in UFP history is fought by surprise attack. The Borg, the dominion, the klingons, ANYONE at all that has shown up the UFP has never once been prepared for them. They always get caught unaware, take heavy loses, and rally to fight back. The problem is that with the Imperium there would be nothing to rally to, when every quadrant is devoid of life.
Rampant destruction, wiping out of life and planets, etc, never stopped the Imperium from rallying. The Imperium has lasted longer, and faced greater threats.
The Borg? feth that, try the Tyranids. Eaters of galaxies, swarms so large they show up on a galactic map as bigger than one of the arms of our galaxy. They quickly adapt to their enemies.
And yet, the Imperium pushed them back. Why? There's a simple reason for this. The Imperium runs on badass.
I think you misunderstood his intent. He was saying unlike every other threat the UFP ever faced (that they were never prepared for, but always managed to rally in the end FTW), the Imperium would leave nothing alive to raise the rally flag.
May the puny Federation xenos loving heretics burn in His glory! Let us cleanse Holy Terra and Mars of their filth, and death to all who oppose us. For their pajamas shall not stand up to the might of the lasgun, or the nobility of the Leman Russ! Death to the heretics! For the Emperor! Charge!
Feds: O.O Oh my god! They have..LAND FORCES! RUN AWAY!!
NIghtsbane - before raising the "t" flag, perhaps defeating a claim would be useful. I'll wait.
In addition: the UFP *would* know they were coming - how do you think the IoM "know" about the UFP? theyd stumble across them, bluster, get beaten down and secrets stolen, and eventually somebody at the administratum would investigate further.
By which point all the secrets you so heavily rely on (like the Warp - whcih would hardly be secret if you can open a rift to it using EM based tech, of course...) have been investigated, copied and improved on.
I'd love to see the Imperium arrive to find they cant exit the warp [known tech, see BL 3rd W bearers novel), and a small bomblet (no pilot of course) collapses their geller fields while theyre in the warp. Of course thats only if you push the UFP hard enough to forget they have principles, of course...
Nos: I think you're overestimating the Federation's reverse engineering tech....You have to remember that the technology the Imperium is so far out of the Federation's frame of reference that the Federation would have extreme difficulty in reverse engineering Imperial technology, even if they managed to capture an completely intact Imperial vessel, and/or its blueprints. Assuming of course, the Imperials don't blow up their ship the instant it seems like they're going to be overpowered by the xenos loving heretics.
It'd be the equivalent of giving Horatio Nelson, or Leonardo da Vinci the complete plans, and maybe even a badly damaged copy of an Arleigh Burke class destroyer. Just because they have it, and even have the instructions for building one they simply can't. The reason being that both da Vinci and the Federation lack the technological and infrastructure base to build a copy of whatever it is they've captured. Even studying it is going to be hard for the Federation, simply do to the difference between Federation and Imperium.
Btw.....
Terminus wrote: UFP wins because they manage to tap into nosferatu's nerd rage and unlock an unlimited source of energy.
Seconded for being a win. And yes, Melissa....you are quite right. Very,very right.
Edit: Additionally Nosferatu, I do believe that by quoting a BL work as official 40k canon you are retracting your earlier claim that BL can not speak for 40k canon?
nosferatu1001 wrote:NIghtsbane - before raising the "t" flag, perhaps defeating a claim would be useful. I'll wait.
In addition: the UFP *would* know they were coming - how do you think the IoM "know" about the UFP? theyd stumble across them, bluster, get beaten down and secrets stolen, and eventually somebody at the administratum would investigate further.
By which point all the secrets you so heavily rely on (like the Warp - whcih would hardly be secret if you can open a rift to it using EM based tech, of course...) have been investigated, copied and improved on.
I'd love to see the Imperium arrive to find they cant exit the warp [known tech, see BL 3rd W bearers novel), and a small bomblet (no pilot of course) collapses their geller fields while theyre in the warp. Of course thats only if you push the UFP hard enough to forget they have principles, of course...
yeah, because after being beaten by borg and dominion they investigated, improved the technology, and were prepared for them.....oh wait that never happened. They got obliterated, and with one of those enemies only survived due to the intervention of "gods".
ChrisWWII wrote:Nos: I think you're overestimating the Federation's reverse engineering tech....You have to remember that the technology the Imperium is so far out of the Federation's frame of reference that the Federation would have extreme difficulty in reverse engineering Imperial technology, even if they managed to capture an completely intact Imperial vessel, and/or its blueprints. Assuming of course, the Imperials don't blow up their ship the instant it seems like they're going to be overpowered by the xenos loving heretics.
I suppose that void shields and adamantium armour would stop the UFP from conducting any scans? Adamantium only exists in the land of make-belief, so replicators could never recreate it even if its atomic composition could be determined by scans - which it can't - right? Void shields are so unfathomable that they give no readings on the primitive UFP scans right?
By your reckoning, IoM already outnumbers them by 10E+5's in ships, manpower in the 10E+9's, weapon strength in the 10E+9's. I really don't see why you guys need to handicap the UFP by taking away their scientific abilities, replicator technologies, unrealistic torpedo yields and forced adherance to TV canon. That's like a pro-wrestler having a fight against a 90 year old senior citizen. Victory is all but certain, but for whatever reason, the senior citizen can't use a cane or walker, can't wear glasses, nor can he use his dentures as a weapon.
and siezed the initiative. if they don't, they will be crushed in one massive go, as the 
) then do doubt the Feds will out run them. However, from what I've read in 
Serves me right for posting when tired. 
3. The UFP may not use any abilities that weren't shown in the show. And by that, I mean if it wasn't shown in ToS, TNG or DS9, it can't be used as VOY's figures are "clearly skewed un unrealistic". Technical manuals and paperback fiction are considered non-canon. Adapting new solutions through synthesis of canon technolgy is inadmissable. Expansion of existing solutions is disallowed due to "logistical issues". Superweapons / devices present in canon are inadmissable due to treaty requirements or the "one-off" aspect of the device. The 
