Hey dakka, the most awesome place on the whole Internet!
I'm interested in trying to write some kind of cross over between 40k and the Star Trek universe. The Warp seems to be just as good for time traveling as it is for transportation, and I could easily see some kind of unpiloted, uncontrolled Warp jump sending a small group of Imperial Navy and Guard ships back a few tens of thousand of years.
Of course, I have no misconceptions of Starfleet maneuverability somehow enabling to wipe the floor with the Imperial Fleet. I'd expect them to wipe the floor with the Feds in any straight up fight. What I was more interested in is discussion over how the Imperium would react to finding their ancient brethren. Right now, I'm thinking the fact that the Feds concert with filthy Xenos would be enough reason for the Imps to declare them heretics and purge the entire organization in the name of the God-Emperor, but of course....I could be wrong. What does dakka think?
And also, I can't resist asking this.....I almost think it's a tradition for people writing 40k crossover fanfic, but.....which Trek characters have the potential to be the God-Emperor of Mankind Himself?
That's true, but we knew the Imperium would wipe the floor with the Feds. I'm more interested in how the two factions would deal with each other's existence. Sheer just purge the heretics? Or what?
Starting with the Holy Fleet slapping the living daylights out of starfleet without a scratch. Having guns that are actually accurate at the hundreds of kilometers range, and some having BARRELS longer than the average engagement range in Trek (about 1km, the nova cannon, fear it) and armor to match, there really wouldent be much of a contest. Then it would fall upon the shoulders of the federation's salwart, crack ground forces to stem the imperial tide... Oh, wait...
I remember reading somewhere that the range of the phasers on the original Enterprise was somewhere in the ballpark of 400,000 km, and it only goes up from there. Mind you, a) we're on a board dedicated to 40k, b) talking about a clash between a corrupt, disintegrating galaxy-spanning theocracy and the Space UN, and c) in the Star Trek universe even powerful lasers are worthless.
Trek for the win. 40k weapnry has always struck me as advanced modern weaponry while Trek weaponry is futuristic. Besides in one 2-hour movie someone on board would invent a new devise no one has ever seen before that would take out space marines, or the counselor would talk the marines into switching sides.
ChrisWWII wrote:That's true, but we knew the Imperium would wipe the floor with the Feds. I'm more interested in how the two factions would deal with each other's existence. Sheer just purge the heretics? Or what?
No the imperium would be no match. If one can fight at the speed of light and the other can't then there's no contest in space. A genesis torpedo dropped on Terra ends the Imperium. A Leman Russ is irrelevant to a common hand phaser.
How many systems instantly rebel to free themselves from Stalin level oppression when a new hope is offered? It would make the Horus Heresy look like a picnic.
I wonder how many fistfights would erupt if you took the 40k vs star trek argument to a trekkie convention? Either way hilarity would ensue.
And 40k wins because of EMPRAH! sod your fairy girly genesis torpedo(the name alone conjures images of rainbows and San Francisco, I hate their golden gate bridge so much), we have the God-Emperor on a giant gold toilet!
"but 40k warships are 100's of times bigger than the largest starfleet vessel..."
Two words...
Genesis Torpedo
Damn you stole my line. KHAAANNNNNN!!!!!
For kicks visualize Nid Hive Fleet Badass coming to an imperium world to suck it dry. The Enterprise warps in. Kirk "introduces" himself to the Norn Queen to distract her while the torpedo is dropped mid Nid fleet. Enterprise warps out. Nids, not having the ability to accelelerate that quickly, are caught in the systemwide Genesis Effect and become part of a system of fluffy bunnies and tribbles. The Enterprise crew has breakfast. Kirk reminisces that "he's had better."
The fundamental problem for the Imperium is they can't even fight off nearsighted Tau. What are they going to do against a technologically superior, equally compact force that offers a clear and better alternative to the hell on earth scneario on most human worlds? Anything the Imperium has thats more technologically advanced would be learned quickly by the UFP. Depending on the timeline, they UFP's manufacturing capacity is nearly to the point of matter conversion. Plot out the design and industrial level replicators build it.
ChrisWWII wrote:That's true, but we knew the Imperium would wipe the floor with the Feds. I'm more interested in how the two factions would deal with each other's existence. Sheer just purge the heretics? Or what?
No the imperium would be no match. If one can fight at the speed of light and the other can't then there's no contest in space. A genesis torpedo dropped on Terra ends the Imperium. A Leman Russ is irrelevant to a common hand phaser.
How many systems instantly rebel to free themselves from Stalin level oppression when a new hope is offered? It would make the Horus Heresy look like a picnic.
Awesome arguement for the Feds there Frazz. Proud a ya!
I take back everything I've ever said about you, except for that comment I made about you, a chupacabra, a 2 liter of Faygo, and the petroleum jelly, that was just too disturbing.
ChrisWWII wrote:That's true, but we knew the Imperium would wipe the floor with the Feds. I'm more interested in how the two factions would deal with each other's existence. Sheer just purge the heretics? Or what?
No the imperium would be no match. If one can fight at the speed of light and the other can't then there's no contest in space. A genesis torpedo dropped on Terra ends the Imperium. A Leman Russ is irrelevant to a common hand phaser.
How many systems instantly rebel to free themselves from Stalin level oppression when a new hope is offered? It would make the Horus Heresy look like a picnic.
Awesome arguement for the Feds there Frazz. Proud a ya!
I take back everything I've ever said about you, except for that comment I made about you, a chupacabra, a 2 liter of Faygo, and the petroleum jelly, that was just too disturbing.
Right, the Federation is concerned with a single quadrant of the galaxy. The Imperium is concerned with the ENTIRE Galaxy.
Besides, just imagine how effective the Imperium would be without Chaos constantly trying to undermine it? No Orks, no Tyranids, no Eldar... just fighting off the various races of Star Trek. Keep in mind the caliber of enemies the Imperium NORMALLY fights.
Orks alone could probably stand a good chance at conquering the Star Trek galaxy. Especially if they looted their teleporting technology. Orks with star trek teleporters?
Even in the initial conflict, the UFP would be able to suicide their ships into the imperial fleet and wipe them out. A ship sized mass moving at warp 9.9 hitting one of the nice big Imperial capital ships? I think the energy released might seriously threaten the nature of space and time
Besides, if you want to use the genesis torpedo, the Imperium has its own world-destroying weapons. Even the standard issue orbital bombardment can wipe out all life on the world.
just when i thought i'd seen it all on Dakka...... dang. I'd have to go with the Federation. if Imperium traveled backwards in time. You have to remember despite all the big guns of the imperium they use explosive shells and gun powders. The best weapons would be the energy weapons and the Imperiums are not that great. Even if Feds traveled into the future.... their ships do not travel in the warp. The diff between warp SPEED and warp SPACE are two different things. Feds travel faster than light, Imperium travel through deminsions. there fore the feds would run circles around the imperium as long as the dilithium held out.
Melissia wrote:Chaos would win against the Star Trek universe more likely than not, they're very poorly equipped and trained to deal with such a threat.
Chaos is more than just raving lunatics charging at you screaming "blood for the blood god!", it's a subversive, subtle thing.
Meh, chaos would just be another faction. Unlike the Imperium the UFP wouldn't care about chaos. They are just other worlds. live and let live. Besides, Kirk would party hearty depending on which chaos god was the focal point of the planet...
Hahaha, "live and let live" is not exactly a policy you can adopt against Chaos. I can see it now, one of the redshirts just happens to have some mild latent telepathic ability, and suddenly a bloodthirster bursts out of his face right in the middle of the starship.
I think perhaps a better way to phrase this question: could the Federation survive in the 40K universe? I think they'd be gone in a week.
Melissia wrote:Chaos would win against the Star Trek universe more likely than not, they're very poorly equipped and trained to deal with such a threat.
Chaos is more than just raving lunatics charging at you screaming "blood for the blood god!", it's a subversive, subtle thing.
Meh, chaos would just be another faction. Unlike the Imperium the UFP wouldn't care about chaos. They are just other worlds. live and let live. Besides, Kirk would party hearty depending on which chaos god was the focal point of the planet...
I don't think you quite understand the danger of Chaos then. Chaos can take over the minds of starship captains. Fleet admirals. Planetary governors. Entire RACES have been subverted to the will of chaos.
The ruinous powers would destroy the Federation from within, and all of the universe would be swept within a never-ending tide of blood, sorcery, plague, and slavery.
Melissia wrote:Chaos would win against the Star Trek universe more likely than not, they're very poorly equipped and trained to deal with such a threat.
Chaos is more than just raving lunatics charging at you screaming "blood for the blood god!", it's a subversive, subtle thing.
Meh, chaos would just be another faction. Unlike the Imperium the UFP wouldn't care about chaos. They are just other worlds. live and let live. Besides, Kirk would party hearty depending on which chaos god was the focal point of the planet...
I don't think you quite understand the danger of Chaos then. Chaos can take over the minds of starship captains. Fleet admirals. Planetary governors. Entire RACES have been subverted to the will of chaos.
The ruinous powers would destroy the Federation from within, and all of the universe would be swept within a never-ending tide of blood, sorcery, plague, and slavery.
Thats what the Imperium wants you to think.
In the UFP's limited retinue of planets they have a whole world dedicated to partying (Ryza-spelling). Don't oppress the Federation with your Imperial hangups man! Lets embrace our differences, diversity makes us stronger. That foaming guy in the corner with the axe? No, the one next to the Klingon not the klingon, ok him too you're right. They are valued members. When the replicator breaks down they can use their axes and batliths to open it up for repair. Besides, we have to keep the tribble population down somehow. So he shouts "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" once in a while. Hey who hasn't?
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Mortified Penguin wrote:The Emperor is the most powerful psyker alive (or dead, as the case may be).
Lol. Yes, that kind of attitude wouldn't let the UFP last long when you see pleasure cults of Slaanesh causing worlds to be half-submersed in the warp, so that daemons can come and go across the world at will, torturing and raping whoever they wanted.
And that guy screaming blood for the blood god doesn't care whose blood he spills. So he chops off the captain's head because not enough blood has been spilled, and makes a shrine out of the man's skull to donate it to the throne of skulls.
Mortified Penguin wrote:The Emperor is the most powerful psyker alive (or dead, as the case may be).
He could simply mind crush the UFP's commanders.
Except he can't of course, that whole dead thing.
*coughastronomicanhackemperor'starotcough*
Furthermore, if you focus the blazing power of the Astronomican on a single mind at a time, I'd imagine an effect similar to putting an ant under an arc welder.
Melissia wrote:Actually I think if the Emperor didn't have to fight off the chaos gods, he could manifest himself again in a "mortal" body once more.
Well, his psychic essence (whatever that original amalgam of shamans is now) is still fully intact, and there are a number of theories on how the Emperor could be "reborn".
1. If his mortal body fully died (turn off the throne), he would fully manifest as a warp entity (i.e. Star Child).
2. If his mortal body was restored (sacrifice the Sensei), he could wake up.
3. If a suitable host for his power was found/created (probably something involving Sensei again), he could reincarnate.
Of course, the problem with these possible solutions is that even if they work, the beacon of the Astronomicon disappears so the Imperium falls apart again. And a number of sub-sects of the Inquisition theorize that an unimaginably powerful psychic entity that spent ten thousand years tied to a corpse in a coffin may just be a little flying rodent gak crazy when it emerges.
Melissia wrote:Lol. Yes, that kind of attitude wouldn't let the UFP last long when you see pleasure cults of Slaanesh causing worlds to be half-submersed in the warp, so that daemons can come and go across the world at will, torturing and raping whoever they wanted.
And that guy screaming blood for the blood god doesn't care whose blood he spills. So he chops off the captain's head because not enough blood has been spilled, and makes a shrine out of the man's skull to donate it to the throne of skulls.
That only happens when there's a tear in the warp. The Sabbat wrolds were fine and dandy until the Imperial did that whole crusade thingy, interrupting everyone's party.
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Mortified Penguin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mortified Penguin wrote:The Emperor is the most powerful psyker alive (or dead, as the case may be).
He could simply mind crush the UFP's commanders.
Except he can't of course, that whole dead thing.
*coughastronomicanhackemperor'starotcough*
Furthermore, if you focus the blazing power of the Astronomican on a single mind at a time, I'd imagine an effect similar to putting an ant under an arc welder.
if they could have they would have. Who cares. Send in robby the robot. no mind involved.
Haha, the first time the Federation entered the warp without the beacon to guide them, they'd all get raped and eaten by demons. Game over.
I think that pretty much sums up the thread in all honesty.
But if you wanna hear the truth...here it goes.
Simple fact is the UFP is a small organization compared to the imperium. It says the imperium is across MILLIONS of planets. millions. untold and uncountable billions man those planets. As far as the Tau are concerned, it says right in the Tau codex that during the even though they beat off ONE small fleet of the imperium, they recognized that the imperium had showed the smallest fraction of its power, and they would have to be extremly careful in the future, otherwise they know they would be wiped out extremly quickly. the UFP is like the Tau. Beggining their space travels and figuring out peace with other aliens, good technological power, lots of buddies and allies to back them up. The imperuim doesnt need buddies to back them up. They killed all their buddies because they know eventually, they will turn on them.
Tau are finding this out already. Several of their planets or groups of peoples are starting to think for themselves. In star trek, I think they have a group of people called the Machi, who are similar in their ideas. The Machi cause lots of problems for Starfleet. If the Machi existed in the imperium they would probably own a few planets...and exterminatus. IF the imperium saw them as something to focus their attention on.
As far as Kirk goes....I'd like to see captain kirk stand toe to toe with any Space marine captain or comissar. His phaser stun settings and goofy smile is all he'd have. Ingenuity? Does anyone honestly think that someone could outstrategize a space marine commander, someone who has been alive for hundreds of years of constant war? Probably not.
As for the genesis torpedo...how many could the UFP fire off until they were utterly destroyed by the uncountable fleets of imperium? How many do they have? Not to mention, if these even worked, why havnt they used them agains the Borg? Or any other enemy for that matter? If you say its because the UFP doesnt beleive in such harsh ways to commit genocide, then they lose again to the imperium, who commit genocide on a daily basis.
I think its no comparison. I think if the the UFP was equal size to the imperium, with same amount of ships, etc, then yes, the UFP would probably wipe the floor with the imperium. Same with the Tau in 40K, they would as well. Problem is they arn't.
Again, the Imperium can't get it up to swat the Tau. The UFP is dramatically more advanced. By the time the Imperium noticed they were there the Imperium would already be dead. These doofuses can't even build a car anymore, and they are going to compete with an organization that went from space flight to creating reorganizing states of matter in what 300 years?
Kirk's never lost. Its not physically possible for him to lose. If it were to occur Chuck Norris, Bill Adama, Muhammad Ali, Patton (real Creed), a pirate, a ninja, Abraham Lincoln, a ticked off Frazzled with twin linked rocket propelled weiner dogs, and Apollo Creeeeeeed would spontanenously appear and set the universe to right in proppa Speghetti Western fashion.
Creed's never actually won anything. Besides, that cigar's going to give him cancer.
Chuck Norris cannot be defeated. His chin is a third fist after all.
of course, its irrelevant once the wonder weinies take the field. Even the Space Amprah don't feth with no weinie dogs. You don't get that old being stupid or suicidal.
Both the UFP and the Imperium have pretty damn slow travel (Compared to, say, Star Wars), but the Imperium beats the Federation easily.
No Federation vessels can destroy the surface of a planet in little time. Imperial ships have exterminatus.
On the ground? The best a phaser has shown is grenade launcher level (Destroying a thin wall of rock with a tunnel behind it). Star Trek has shown no armor, no artillery other than some weak mortars in The Arena, and some of the worst infantry in the universe. Almost all of their combat happens at the same tiny ranges 40K excels at. Hell, one of their strongest personal has shown nothing better than a Space Marine (Data).
And if anyone is going to use the teleportation argument: No. Teleporters are stopped by shields. Imperial ships have shields.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:One has time-travel capability, the other does not. I rest my case.
Inconsistent time travel that does not alter the original dimension.
Ergo, if Star Trek uses time travel, they're not beating the Imperium of Man, they're defeating an alternate dimension Imperium of Man.
Deadshane1 wrote:To those of you that will say...
"but 40k warships are 100's of times bigger than the largest starfleet vessel..."
Two words...
Genesis Torpedo
Never was mass-produced, original is lost.
Melissia wrote:Besides, if you want to use the genesis torpedo, the Imperium has its own world-destroying weapons. Even the standard issue orbital bombardment can wipe out all life on the world.
And unlike the Genesis torpedo, there's a lot of them.
andruin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Kirk's never lost. Its not physically possible for him to lose. .
Except for that time he got killed by a, you know, tricksy bridge.
I think everyone knows who would win the battle in the end. Fact is no one is ever gonna admit it. Whenever someone from the 40K side offers evidence of "hey, we have uncountable ships, men, military power, and technology that, while may not be as advanced as yours, it still is pretty close to par, and we pracitcally own the entire galaxy except for a few small areas" it gets counter argued with things like
"Kirk in invicible." He hasn't fought a space marine yet. Or a Nid. Or and eldar Exarch. Or really anything that would have him crushed, eaten and smashed to pieces in seconds. Only thing Kirk has fought is human sized and speed aliens that have claws and can't seem to best him in hand to hand combat. And Klingons. Neither of those have power armor.
"We have environment bombs." As someone has stated already, they dont have that technology anymore, it's dead.
"If kirk fought chuck norris and pirates, Kirk would obviously come out on top." I dont even need to point out how un-related this is.
"We have time travel" Which cannot be re-created reliably, frequently, and seems to only happen when freak occurances in the universe permits for an episode or two.
"The imperium would never notice the UFP! They'd be dead by the time they did" even though they notice tons of small races of creatures on new planets frequently which are put to the flame....and still alive, and still the majour military might in the Galaxy. And which many other races know not to provoke them unless they draw their fury, and be smashed.
Even Eldar, who can see the future, whos technology is vastly more advanced than the UFP and the imperium, don't mess with them. They pick small guerilla warfare battles and win small battles. However when drawn into major conflicts, they lose and then go off and cry about it. Wars of attrition is something the imperium CAN do. It's not something the UFP could do. The imperium has been at war constantly, and still is, for tens of thousands of years, and it STILL rules their known Galaxy, which is probably 100 times larger than the star trek sector. The feds rule a tiny little sector in their galaxy, and whenever war comes up they negotiate peace talks because they openly admit that they would lose too many men. It's a numbers game. And Feds come up short.
Not to toot the Ultramarines Chapter horns (so to speak) or anything, but I think just that chapter alone could deal with the UFP. That chapter and the various Guard regiments that owe them their loyalty due to marny being the (sub?)sector governor basically.
Gorgarak wrote:"We have time travel" Which cannot be re-created reliably, frequently, and seems to only happen when freak occurances in the universe permits for an episode or two.
Actually, it is reliable (Due to incredibly bad script writing). However, time travel is Star Trek through that method is fething stupid, as it creates an alternate universe and leaves the original unchanged. Ergo, all the UFP accomplishes with time travel is running away.
But yeah, what advantages does the Imperium have?
-Numbers
-Industrial capacity
-Travel speed
-Firepower
-Numbers (Yes, I said it before, but seriously, the Imperium is HUGE compared to the UFP)
-Creed
-Doomsday devices
-Doctrine (Let's face it, the UFP are pansies when it comes to fighting a war)
-Land combat
What advantages does Star Trek have?
-Kirk
-Transporters
-Logic (Something the Imperium can be a bit short on)
Melissia wrote:Not to toot the Ultramarines Chapter horns (so to speak) or anything, but I think just that chapter alone could deal with the UFP. That chapter and the various Guard regiments that owe them their loyalty due to marny being the (sub?)sector governor basically.
Well, I could see them easily winning in an offensive war due to just having to bomb the crap out of UNSC planets.
And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.
Frazzled wrote:And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.
Your problem there: Be specific.
How does the UFP "adapt?" Do they somehow just increase their industrial capacity a bajillion fold? Do they somehow make warp faster? Do they actually start a dedicated ground army, when they had no such thing in the past?
There are hundreds of billions of guardsmen. That's more than there are people in the entire UFP.
Also, the only reason the Imperium hasn't beaten the Tau is because they are distracted. The only reason they haven't beaten the Dark Eldar is that getting to their city is a bit hard. If the Imperium were to bring all of its forces to bear on the Tau, the Dark Eldar, or the Demiurg, it's hard to imagine them surviving for more than a few years.
Melissia wrote:The reason Tau survived is because they're just not important enough.
Exactly. Why do you think the UFP would be any different. Unlike the Tau, they aren't even trying to expand via conquering worlds. Witrh 10,000 more vicious threat vectors, the imperium wouldn't waste the time.
Substitute Dominion, or Romulans and the threat level goes substantially higher however. They're all about conquering other races.
Speaking of the Tau... I could definitely see the Tau absorbing the UFP or vice versa. They both have similar beliefs, they both have a wide assortment of species, and they both are rather small.
Frazzled wrote:
Melissia wrote:The reason Tau survived is because they're just not important enough.
Exactly. Why do you think the UFP would be any different. Unlike the Tau, they aren't even trying to expand via conquering worlds. Witrh 10,000 more vicious threat vectors, the imperium wouldn't waste the time.
Substitute Dominion, or Romulans and the threat level goes substantially higher however. They're all about conquering other races.
So... The Imperium just ignores Starfleet then? I guess that just leaves it like the current situation with the Tau, as you said; if the UFP ever gets uppity, the Imperium will just send in forces to crush them.
Dominion are far more of a threat numberswise, but they still lack firepower (And are currently rebuilding after the war). Romulans? Too small, although they're sneaky.
Btw guys. 40k lads CAN time travel. Not on purpose, of course. But the warp can frick up when they arrive
AND....A chaos legion learns of the UFP. Simply more cultists to them. Heck, the 9th Grand Host of word bearers (maybe the wrong numbered host) could corrupt the whole of the UFP. In Dark Creed they corrupt billions of guardsmen....by doing absolutely nothing. Just being there.
UFP would thrive. If they get into a necron tombworld and get that tech, in a decade or two they are invulnerable (or similarly get some nice eldar tech-all your secrets are belong to us!!!)
Frazzled wrote:UFP would thrive. If they get into a necron tombworld and get that tech, in a decade or two they are
Dead from pissing off the Necrons and C'tan.
nah, same issue as the Imperium. Bigger fish to fry. The necrons appear to be gearing up for the big fight (those that can, the new BB showed them much more crapped out than their codex). PLus there are no tomb worlds in UFP space so no natural reason for them to appear.
The same argument could be applied to the Eldar tech, as well. Besides, they couldn't use Eldar tech anyway, except for maybe the simpler stuff.
Other than their ships, weapons, and vehicles you're completely correct.
Actually I'd proffer the galaxy of 40K has much more to worry about in a crossover than StarTrek. Borg, all powerful energy beings that pop up with regularity, time travellers, a plethora of aggressive races not limited by the warp or its worries. Yea ha.
I dunno, I think UFP would stand a decent chance. They can more than outperform 40k in speed. Warp travel in Star Trek is in the thousands of times the speed of light. That and they don't have the habit of time passing in different lengths during travel. Hit and run attacks would be brutal. Also if they managed to somehow disable Terra and the Golden Throne no more warp travel for Imperium.
Melissia wrote:Erm, no, quite a bit of Eldar technology relies on the fact that Eldar themselves are an entirely psychic race.
Also, the Inquisition deals with a borg-like threat in Dark Heresy, and has mostly kept it under control.
Thats not correct for their fleet. thats not correct for their vehicles. Thats not correct for their weapons. They often channel warp energy as a power source, and some fo their materials are easily shaped psychically, but its all technology. In the First Happy Time (see who catches that reference) before Tau, before Necrons, Eldar were the technologically superior race in 40K.
Gorgarak wrote:I think everyone knows who would win the battle in the end. Fact is no one is ever gonna admit it. Whenever someone from the 40K side offers evidence of "hey, we have uncountable ships, men, military power, and technology that, while may not be as advanced as yours, it still is pretty close to par, and we pracitcally own the entire galaxy except for a few small areas" it gets counter argued with things like
"Kirk in invicible." He hasn't fought a space marine yet. Or a Nid. Or and eldar Exarch. Or really anything that would have him crushed, eaten and smashed to pieces in seconds. Only thing Kirk has fought is human sized and speed aliens that have claws and can't seem to best him in hand to hand combat. And Klingons. Neither of those have power armor.
"We have environment bombs." As someone has stated already, they dont have that technology anymore, it's dead.
"If kirk fought chuck norris and pirates, Kirk would obviously come out on top." I dont even need to point out how un-related this is.
"We have time travel" Which cannot be re-created reliably, frequently, and seems to only happen when freak occurances in the universe permits for an episode or two.
"The imperium would never notice the UFP! They'd be dead by the time they did" even though they notice tons of small races of creatures on new planets frequently which are put to the flame....and still alive, and still the majour military might in the Galaxy. And which many other races know not to provoke them unless they draw their fury, and be smashed.
Even Eldar, who can see the future, whos technology is vastly more advanced than the UFP and the imperium, don't mess with them. They pick small guerilla warfare battles and win small battles. However when drawn into major conflicts, they lose and then go off and cry about it. Wars of attrition is something the imperium CAN do. It's not something the UFP could do. The imperium has been at war constantly, and still is, for tens of thousands of years, and it STILL rules their known Galaxy, which is probably 100 times larger than the star trek sector. The feds rule a tiny little sector in their galaxy, and whenever war comes up they negotiate peace talks because they openly admit that they would lose too many men. It's a numbers game. And Feds come up short.
I don't understand how that can all be true yet the Imperium trembles on the edge of extinction.
I don't understand how that can all be true yet the Imperium trembles on the edge of extinction.
Agreed, but its cause they have what...necrons, Orks, Chaos and Nids to contend with. Three Races which, as far as can be told, have limitless numbers at their hands. Imperium is too big...if they consolidated half of their space into a smaller area they would tactically be undefeatable. Problem is they hold key areas like the Cadian gate and fight off tyranid incursions from every angle in the galaxy, so they have to hold the posistions lest every other race in the galaxy die as well.
Don't get me wrong. Im no fan of the imperium. I play Xenos and always will. But in this area, i gotta give the imperium credit..they are, in this case, superior to UFP. At the very least in military power and what not. As far as science and stuff the UFP kicks the crap out of imperium. hands down.
You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*
I say this with tender love, I am a huge star trek fan...but come on... Look at the canon, the feds have had near federation ending defeats to the klingons?!, the dominion, and the borg. ALL of these foes are worthless compared to one small contingent of space marines. Let the flesh tearer's loose on a galaxy class ship and the captain's log alone would be enough to make the federation surrender.
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Kilkrazy wrote:But the Imperium wants every other faction in the galaxy to die.
So do the Eldar, the Orks, Chaos and the Necrons.
They should all be helping the Tyranids as much as they can.
not really...that's what the inquisition wants. Arguably the vision of the emperor was only to restore sundered worlds and live in peace. The xenophobia and general supremism came from the inquisition after the emperor fell, not the age of man itself.
Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)
Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.
Frazzled wrote:And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.
Imperium can't beat the Tau? Even the Tau codex admits their victory was against a toenail of the Imperium, and if the Imperium seriously cared, it could throw enough ships and men in their direction that all the rail guns and communist ideology in the world couldn't help them. Tau only exist due to the same ridiculous plot armor you're applying to the Federation.
Demiurg have no home base to speak of, they are small bands of nomads that live in their ships on the very farthest fringes of the universe where the Imperium couldn't give less of a damn. Dark Eldar have one planet in the depths of the Webway, from which they launch brief raids and turn tail as soon as the Imperium takes notice. These civilizations are mosquitoes that the Imperium can't be bothered to swat because its hands are to busy stroking itself.
Orks would overrun the UFP in a week, theirs is a warrior culture that has more going for them than a ridged asscrack for a forehead (and yet those same ridged asscrack foreheads keep giving the UFP all sorts of grief on a daily basis).
The Unending wrote:The fine people at factpile (a website that has actual debating rules for what is and isn't a logical fallacy) have already spoken on the matter.
Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)
Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.
Nightsbane wrote:You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*
...and the hardcore 40kers continue to remain unbathed, brush some cheetos crumbs off of their huge pot bellies before reaching for their mountain dew, and quote directly out of their rulebook a "rule" that says something about the "inexhaustable armies of the emperor".
The Unending wrote:The fine people at factpile (a website that has actual debating rules for what is and isn't a logical fallacy) have already spoken on the matter.
Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)
Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.
if we want to have a serious debate I suggest we use them
Wait a serious debate on Star Trek vs. 40K?
Well as serious as two groups of nerds arguing about two fictional universe (one of which severly underpowered compared to the other) while posting pictures of peoples heads exploding can be
(I was just hoping to avoid alot of the MY SCI-FI UNIVERSE IS BETTER THAN YOUR SCI-FI UNIVERSE that al....most of us would rather be without)
The impirals will think of the UFP as a group of rebels, alien-lovers,... Put really the impirals would just nuke there small amout of worlds to a big ball of ash.
No contest .
I like both universes myself, but just the scale alone would make Star Trek cry, nevermind what's IN it.
A better comparison would be Supreme Commander versus 40k I think, but even then, SupCom shows nothing of what each faction's space-based assets are, though they DO have them.
Nightsbane wrote:You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*
...and the hardcore 40kers continue to remain unbathed, brush some cheetos crumbs off of their huge pot bellies before reaching for their mountain dew, and quote directly out of their rulebook a "rule" that says something about the "inexhaustable armies of the emperor".
NERD WAR!
yet both are crushed under the power of unsated lust brought on by an army of star wars virginity brigade.
First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they? Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless. My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.
Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.
On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.
In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.
IGLannister wrote:Ok here's my take on this, as I am a fan of both.
First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they? Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless. My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.
Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.
On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.
In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.
Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless
IGLannister wrote:Ok here's my take on this, as I am a fan of both.
I am too, although I grow sick of the gack some Star Trek fans (Luckily not anyone on this thread) say. "Star Trek predicts the future! It is real! Star Wars? 40K? Doctor Who? Lame and unrealistic compared to Star Trek's SCIENCE!"
IGLannister wrote:First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they?
Fleet crew. Also, they can serve as occupying armies for refueling stations and conquered planets. And they can serve as workers to build spacecraft.
The simple truth is, numbers matter. And the UFP is tiny.
IGLannister wrote: Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless.
Just board 'em.
IGLannister wrote: My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.
Tech? They have tech, it's just not the same kind of tech Star Trek has; apples and oranges, you know? Ships? Imperium ships easily outclass Starfleet models in firepower, and their voidshields are tough. Plus, they actually HAVE weapons for Exterminatus. Knowhow? Both sides are incredibly stupid, but one is more blood-thirsting.
IGLannister wrote:Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.
Let's ignore that Imperial ships are stronger and that Astartes often board. Let's also ignore that if the UFP want to loot any resources or hold ground, they're going to have to do land-based warfare, which they suck at.
IGLannister wrote:On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.
Diplo or a bloody first strike... Guess what the United Federation of Pansies is more likely to do?
IGLannister wrote:In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.
Nah, Kirk all the way. But the Imperium is too damn big, powerful,
Sorry if I sound aggressive, but I always find topics like this so much fun.
Many of you are forgetting swarm examples in ST like the borg. It doesn't matter if you have the BEST projectile defense systems ever imagined, if you don't/can't keep up with the rate of invasion.
It's the same problem marines or eldar face with ork and tyranid invasion. It's easy to look at it from one side and think, EASY WIN! The technology will shoot them to pieces! BUT horde armies overwhelm, and just throw forces at gunfire until some get through.
This is what it would be like for the feds. They simply could not keep up the the waves of assault.
You guys are also talking like the warp=lightspeed. IT DOES NOT. The imperium could enter the warp, emerge at Earth and drop pod the **** out of it before half the distress calls could even be transmitted. The federation are total *** at ground combat as shown time and time again.
Nightsbane wrote:You guys are also talking like the warp=lightspeed. IT DOES NOT. The imperium could enter the warp, emerge at Earth and drop pod the **** out of it before half the distress calls could even be transmitted. The federation are total *** at ground combat as shown time and time again.
Warp travel is actually many times faster than light (In both fictions); if they actually were lightspeed, they'd take centuries to move tiny distances. However, their combat speeds are definitely sublight.
Also, another advantage of ground combat: You can capture specific persons, such as Earth's politicians. That way, you force a surrender much easier.
Note that, while the USA uses planes in its military, the significant force is ground-based infantry. Why? Because planes (Or spaceships) cannot HOLD ground or occupy. It's the same problem seen all the way back in World War 1 with tanks striking into the enemy but falling due to not being able to hold their positions.
sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!
I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.
sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!
I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.
Star Trek ships are NOT 400 kilometers long. Maybe you meant meters?
sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!
I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.
Star Trek ships are NOT 400 kilometers long. Maybe you meant meters?
like I said I couldn't find a source (and they may have said meters now that I think about it)
As entertaining as an Imperium versus Star Trek debate is, shouldn't this be banished, er, I mean, moved to the Background forum, so that it can keep the previous Star Trek vs. 40k thread company?
But on topic, the Imperium is essentially a sleeping, lobotomized dinosaur with leprosy. Sure, it's a big, scary dinosaur and there are ships in its navy that could obliterate planets and it has a big enough fleet that if it could concentrate on any one of its enemies it would win easily. Yet, the Tau are still there, and Orks are still there, and the Eldar are still there, and on and on and on.
The Federation would win because the Imperium would tear itself apart, again, and the Federation would crawl in and "help rebuild".
solkan wrote:As entertaining as an Imperium versus Star Trek debate is, shouldn't this be banished, er, I mean, moved to the Background forum, so that it can keep the previous Star Trek vs. 40k thread company?
But on topic, the Imperium is essentially a sleeping, lobotomized dinosaur with leprosy. Sure, it's a big, scary dinosaur and there are ships in its navy that could obliterate planets and it has a big enough fleet that if it could concentrate on any one of its enemies it would win easily. Yet, the Tau are still there, and Orks are still there, and the Eldar are still there, and on and on and on.
The Federation would win because the Imperium would tear itself apart, again, and the Federation would crawl in and "help rebuild".
Because they are all fighting the Imperium at the same time. Duh. The Tau would be obliterated by a full force Imperium. They ADMIT they would be obliterated by a full force Imperium.
The Federation is just like the Tau, only without a good ground army and with transporters. The Imperium is not going to shake itself to pieces fighting the UFP unless the Imperium is also facing its other enemies, and if the other enemies WERE present the UFP would just as likely be annihilated. There's certainly no hope of them rebuilding an Imperium that is overrun by Orks, demons, chaos space marines, etc.
The whole argument here doesn't make sense. "The UFP win because they let other guys who are not part of the UFP fight for them."
Back on the topic of time travel, Imperium does have reliable time travel; the three way door. In Ravenor Rogue, Ravenor gives it specific locations to go in time. All you need is a powerful psyker and you can bring and army to Earth ( or any other Federation planet, for that matter) and wipe it out. Even though they would wipe out the Federation Fleet, they can just send troops directly to the planet without the Federation knowing until they strike.
General Seric wrote:Back on the topic of time travel, Imperium does have reliable time travel; the three way door. In Ravenor Rogue, Ravenor gives it specific locations to go in time. All you need is a powerful psyker and you can bring and army to Earth ( or any other Federation planet, for that matter) and wipe it out. Even though they would wipe out the Federation Fleet, they can just send troops directly to the planet without the Federation knowing until they strike.
Also using time travel is strictly forbidden by the UFP.
Saying that they would simply hop around time and fix it would not work for two reasons.
1. It's against their laws.
2. The Imperial forces would not exist in that timeline until they arrived. Going back would accomplish next to nothing.
sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!
This +1.
I'm not entirely certain, but I think the largest Federation ship is what... half a mile long? Has maybe 4-5 phaser banks and 2 torpedo tubes?
Average battleship in 40k is miles long, fires shells the size of skyscrapers, and fires them in volleys.
Hell, even the Borg wouldn't be able to stand up to that (each cube is 3km long). Their shields are A: keyed to energy weapons if I understand it right (the enterprise attacked them with some sort of anti-matter or plasma weapon from the disk, looked like fireworks), and even if they weren't, we're talking shells longer than most federation ships that are mostly solid.
Oh, and to the person mentioning that the lance batteries are 40km wide, you probably got the distance mixed up. That would imply a lance battery is miles wide, and since we're not talking the SDF-1 here (for you robotech fans ) I could easily see 40m wide. Either way that's a big chunk out of a ship that is designed with thin spindly connections between the various sections.
Everyone is going off the assumption that *POOF* the federation appears in the halo zone or something (and doesn't get eaten by 'nids the first week on the job), but what if, lets say, *POOF!* imperium is on top of the UFP instead. IMHO there woulden't be any contest. Faced with none of its old enemys, a face wreaking crusade of five entire crusiers and a battle barge (the size of the damocles gulf crusade against the tau that got called off halfway through wrecking the faces off the entire speices) walks up and invades the hell out of the feds.
Thanks for your tact, necroman. It seems that some others on this forum seem to lack the same conversational skills. But what can one expect from years sealed away in a cave with no one to talk to except your super-cool models?
Wait, I thought this was imperium vs UFP... The astronomicon is a part of the imperium, wouldent it sensibly be included in the package? If not, then yeah, navigators heads would explode, deamons would infest the hulks, the imperium would collapse and the feds would be up against ravening hordes of deamons and possesed crewmen. Good job!
sniperjolly wrote:Wait, I thought this was imperium vs UFP... The astronomicon is a part of the imperium, wouldent it sensibly be included in the package? If not, then yeah, navigators heads would explode, deamons would infest the hulks, the imperium would collapse and the feds would be up against ravening hordes of deamons and possesed crewmen. Good job!
It's the Imperium using their advanced time-travel capability to go back to the 23rd century in order to see if they are tougher than the UFP.
Obviously there was no Astronomican in the 23rd Century.
To the person mentioning gigatons - all that is useless if the ship you are firing at over there, is suddenly the other side of you *before* your sensors have picked them up.
Look up the PIcard manouver for what happens to ships with lightspeed sensors that face ships that can move faster than light. All that gigatons is useless unless it, you know, actually hits anything. Which it wont. Inertialess manouvering means that the UFP ships can change direction faster than the servitor can register the change, never mind actually anticipate where the subject will be. Even light speed (lances) doesnt work when the distances are big enough - the subspace sensors pick up the lance and your ship moves, so the beam misses.
The UFP ships would laugh at BFG style ideas. Marines on boarding torpedoes wouldnt get within a planetary orbit of any UFP ship!
Also phasers dont destroy anything? OK, they just hook up the disruptors that disrupt atomic bonds. Hook them up on wide beam and just start to eat ships. All while moving faster than the sensors can register you.
Quantum torpedoes are hugely more powerful than PHOTON (not proton...) torpedoes.
They DO have reliable, this timeline time travel, used many times in voyager and next gen with the various earth stories. Oh, and that good old 4th and 8th films where they went back and altered the current timeline. And the timecops are part of the Federation, like starfleet they are an agency within the organisation. Etc.
Soooo much rubbish spouted here...
Startrek does not, I repeat does not NEED planets - they dont mine resources, they simply replicate the elements they need (apart from latinum, but that is a gold-substitute and has no practical use anyway) as long as they have power - and any gas giant provides that. They have direct energy -> matter conversion. The abiltiy to build any structure from the sub-quark level up (esp if they get their nanite buddies, a certain Crusher creation, on board)
As Frazzled (i think) mentioned - the UFP thrives on technology. They are ahead of the imperium in everything bar Immaterium travel (as the warp doesnt exist int he UFP universe...) , AND, more importantly - *understand how it works and how to build more* - something the imperium cannot do.
So if they find a dormant tomb world and succeed in obtaining a bit of tech - they will understand and replicate it. And improve on it.
They also do have psykers, in many guises and power levels, so any argument predicated on "well they couldnt do X as they dont have psykers" is flawed. Fatally so.
Anyway, its all moot - like the SW vs ST each side is too entrenched. I loooove 40k, however weight of arms means nothing if you have no ability to bring those weights to bear. The tactics and abilities of the IoM do not match well to the abilities of the trek universe.
I really thing we need to look at the move advanced sections of the Imperium of Man. A squad of Grey Knights teleporting could wreck ST ships. Also, seeing as this is ONLY the Imperium vs the FoP. The Emperor spends all his time keeping Chaos from wrecking reality. And he still manages to rip holes through the galaxy (The Storm of The Emperors Wrath). Assuming he wasn't constantly fighting off the powers of Chaos, he could probably destroy the whole of the Fed in the blink of an eye.
It doesn't matter if they're fast, if the ships can't actually do any damage to 40k ships. The offensive capabilities of Star Trek ships are fairly limited compared to 40k ships.
Kilkrazy wrote:There is no Astronomican in the Star Trek universe/time so the Imperial Navy would simply be unable to navigate.
I don't see how you can win a naval campaign if your ships cannot leave port.
uh... no . You can navigate the warp without the Astronomican. The Astronomican makes it much, MUCH easier and less risky, but not impossible.
karima - they have enough difficulty with teleporting onto a planet, whereas you reckon they could teleport safely onto a starship moving at warp 9? Through Shields? Um, unlikely.
Melissia - have you seen the quoted output for quantum torpedoes? disruptors? Remember you are dealing with targetting sstems light years ahead of the imperium so they can accurately target key systems on board the imperium ship, they dont rely on *rolling freaking broadsides* as a viable tactic...
As for those saying the UFP couldnt go into the warp - so they couldnt create Geller fields? Theyd analyse the first ship to leave warp, work out the EM signature and replicate it. Like the do with everything else.
I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.
All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.
In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.
The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).
The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.
Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.
From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.
Melissia wrote:It doesn't matter if they're fast, if the ships can't actually do any damage to 40k ships. The offensive capabilities of Star Trek ships are fairly limited compared to 40k ships.
Kilkrazy wrote:There is no Astronomican in the Star Trek universe/time so the Imperial Navy would simply be unable to navigate.
I don't see how you can win a naval campaign if your ships cannot leave port.
uh... no . You can navigate the warp without the Astronomican. The Astronomican makes it much, MUCH easier and less risky, but not impossible.
Void shields don't block torpedoes. Thats nuke strikes on bare hull. or one drop of redmatter turning your battleship into eensy weensy version of itself-The Master would be proud.
incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.
All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.
In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.
The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).
The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.
Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.
From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.
All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.
In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.
The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).
The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.
Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.
From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).
OK, so basiacally, ST ships fly rings around 40K ships and let there planets get destroyed, while compleately failing to scratch any of the hulls of the smallest crusier?
OK, so the IoM has a new outpost with a bigger than usual pirate problem... so what?
Hold on... If we are assuming that ST exists in the IoM's distant past... (if we get over the whole "having lightseed and no warp" thing) then who is the Emperor?! Kirk? Picard? If you kill them, then the entire timeline would collapse in a puff of logic.
Listen to my self, assuming that someone could kill a Kirk/Emperor hybrid... Perish the thought!
sniperjolly wrote:OK, so basiacally, ST ships fly rings around 40K ships and let there planets get destroyed, while compleately failing to scratch any of the hulls of the smallest crusier?
OK, so the IoM has a new outpost with a bigger than usual pirate problem... so what?
Hold on... If we are assuming that ST exists in the IoM's distant past... (if we get over the whole "having lightseed and no warp" thing) then who is the Emperor?! Kirk? Picard? If you kill them, then the entire timeline would collapse in a puff of logic.
Listen to my self, assuming that someone could kill a Kirk/Emperor hybrid... Perish the thought!
Well lets leave Kirk and the Emprah out i guess.
They would have no problem "scratching the hull." if tiny bombers can destroy a battleship, and unkillable UFP cruiser could do much better. I don't know what an isoton is, but a 25 isoton round can destroy a city (memory Alpha) and quantum torpedoes are up to 200 isotons each with the Enterprise E.
sniper - and has been pointed out "barely scratching the hull" is an entirely false statement. You keep believing that though.
Again: the people who believe that the immaterium cannot be detected by UFP are correct. Once. After the first time the breach is opened and a ship comes through, the mass of subspace and better sensors will have mapped the mechanic used to open the breach, the warp beyond the breach, and the geller fields used to protect the ship.
Which is then communicated at WF 9.999 (max boosted subspace speed) to every other ship in the fleet.
Still, you keep belieiving that the 40k battelships would survive, its kinda funny.
Plus there are always people like Harry Kim - no matter how many times he dies, they always find a way to bring him back from some alternate dimension, clone, save him from the afterlife, paint a cardboard cut out of him and put it on the bridge, etc...
Perhaps Harry Kim is the Emp, since he can't be killed?
SilverMK2 wrote:Plus there are always people like Harry Kim - no matter how many times he dies, they always find a way to bring him back from some alternate dimension, clone, save him from the afterlife, paint a cardboard cut out of him and put it on the bridge, etc...
Perhaps Harry Kim is the Emp, since he can't be killed?
incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.
All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.
In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.
The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).
The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.
Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.
From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).
I thought that to be a given. Anyone who watches any ST at all, knows that it takes days and weeks for them to get anywhere. The primary fleets would not ever make it back in time to stop an invasion.
Besides, the argument that "Shields and lasers lulz!" for Star Trek is just stupid. Star Trek fanboys always claim that their ships can't be hit by anything, hence the star wars vs star trek debacle.
If you have a race of man that has the know how to in case the dead or near dead into suits or armor, live thousands of years, and create the massive structures shown...it is heavily understood that coming across a UFP ship they would figure out a way to blow it out of the sky. They aren't going to sit on their thumbs saying, "oh well guys, their shields stop our weaponry...let's go home"
Nightsbane wrote:
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
I did read the entire thread. The discussion didn’t seem to be put to bed and so I elected to add to it in hopes of swaying those who either don’t understand or willfully choose not to understand out of blind 40k devotion. I can understand your fury – it’s a purely hypothetical fantasy comparison that has no bearing on anything of relevance. If THAT’S not worth being rude and curt, what is?
I will respond by saying you don’t completely understand how 40k space travel works. A 40k ship takes days, sometimes weeks, to move to or from a systems jump point before slipping into the warp or arriving at its planetary destination. Star Trek ships simply pop into orbit around whatever they want. We could say that a federation ship has no ability to detect a 40k ship while it’s in the warp, even still, the federation’s ability to react to and annihilate approaching fleets before they’re in a position to attack a planet gives them an enormous advantage that the Imperium would be unable to overcome.
Nightsbane wrote:
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
I did read the entire thread. The discussion didn’t seem to be put to bed and so I elected to add to it in hopes of swaying those who either don’t understand or willfully choose not to understand out of blind 40k devotion. I can understand your fury – it’s a purely hypothetical fantasy comparison that has no bearing on anything of relevance. If THAT’S not worth being rude and curt, what is?
I will respond by saying you don’t completely understand how 40k space travel works. A 40k ship takes days, sometimes weeks, to move to or from a systems jump point before slipping into the warp or arriving at its planetary destination. Star Trek ships simply pop into orbit around whatever they want. We could say that a federation ship has no ability to detect a 40k ship while it’s in the warp, even still, the federation’s ability to react to and annihilate approaching fleets before they’re in a position to attack a planet gives them an enormous advantage that the Imperium would be unable to overcome.
true to a limited point, but look what I just posted. It takes them a long time to travel. It would be days or weeks until they got back to Earth, and by then, too late.
Also this is assuming that UFP would win space battles, which I would doubt that they would. The imperium is not going to roll over after facing new technology.
Nightsbane wrote:
true to a limited point, but look what I just posted. It takes them a long time to travel. It would be days or weeks until they got back to Earth, and by then, too late.
Also this is assuming that UFP would win space battles, which I would doubt that they would. The imperium is not going to roll over after facing new technology.
The Federation isn’t going to send its entire armada off to attack the Imperium. Planets would have garrisons and defense fleets. Whenever an Imperial attack group emerged in the system the defense fleets would engage it and send a distress message to nearby attack fleets. With the maneuverability issues outlined in this discussion the UFP should be able to wreak untold devastation before the fleet even gets close enough to their target to attack.
I know you doubt that the UFP would win space battles but I disagree. The UFP star ship is to a Imperial warship as a F-22 Raptor is unto a Messerschmitt Bf 109. The Imperium will certainly not roll over and die but they will be defeated.
While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.
Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it. they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly. They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.
Luke_Prowler wrote:While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.
Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it.
This is a misunderstanding of the technological state of the Imperium. The foundation of the Imperial analogy is the Dark Ages – a state of superstition, technological stagnation, and intellectual decline. If an Imperial Titan is destroyed it cannot be replaced. The knowledge to build new things is severely limited by both the information that’s available and a zealously superstitious culture.
Luke_Prowler wrote:they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information but this is simply incorrect. Even if you’re exaggerating, the exaggeration is ludicrous… regardless, the point is moot. A modern thermonuclear missile capable of unleashing around fifty times the destruction of Hiroshima is housed in a casing about the size of a large dog.
Luke_Prowler wrote:They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.
No one is disputing the destructive capability of the imperial weapons, the discussion is largely whether the imperium can hit a target that basically has unlimited faster-than-light hit and run capability. By the time a Nova cannon is moved into position to target a Federation star ship, that ship will have unleashed a volley of torpedoes, warped out, and warped back in again ten times over.
Assuming the Imperial ship even gets a chance to fire it’s weapons the Fed ship is gone before the projectile reaches it’s destination… the Imperial ship if left lumbering along while photon torpedo after photon torpedo slams into it with impunity – to say nothing of phasers which will eventually wear down the ships defenses and slice it apart.
Luke_Prowler wrote:While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.
Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it. they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly. They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.
You're thinking 2 dimensionally.
The UFP's answer to the Nova cannon is that it won't be there. UFP ships will literally never be able to be targetted because the UFP ships will be dancing ftster than light. The eldar give Imperials fits because their ships are faster and their location is blurry. Thats nothing when the enemy's location is nonexistent. The only think the imperium ships will know is the explosions when the torpedoes impact, and then they die.
A more apt comparison than above would be a sailing ship of the line fighting at night against a Vought Corsair. Sure the ship can hear the plane but so what. You can't hit it. meanwhile it pounds you to jelly with 20MM fire and rockets. It can't take you out in one broadside but it will destory the ship's ability to fight in a few passes.
I can't beleive this thread is still going, with people debating about the exact same things.
lets see if I can sum this up in a nutshell....
40K fans beleive that with their superior numbers, firepower, ground force, space marines, and technology, they would win out over the UFP
UFP fan beleive that IoM weapons won't damage their ships because they are too fast, could sense an imperial fleet from awhile away, their shields are better, and that tactically, they will outsmart the IoM and make their paltry numbers make up for it by taking out xxx amount of ships for every one of theirs.
I don't know if it's just me, but I've watched Star trek episodes....pretty much all seasons, from TNG - Voyager. Not once have I seen a fleet of feds come out of warp, blast away an enemy fleet, hit their warp engines to go into warp so they dont get hit, then warp back, rinse and repeat. I think If i remember correctly they can't do this because once they put shields up and engage weapons, they take away too much energy from warp engines. Not to mention if they disengaged they would be left open to be destroyed. No commander would drop shields, turn around, and take the chance of warping, leaving themselves open for attack for up to 10 seconds or more. Im not saying this tactic would work...im just saying they would most likely lose alot of ships inthe process. Oh wait. that won't happen because IoM weapons are too weak and unsophisticated to break their shields. My question is this...If the imperium can take on Eldar and win (technology which would be at least on par with UFP, if not much more advanced, to be fair) then why would the UFP be any different? Remember Eldar = Former rulers of Galaxy. just cause they lost numbers doesn't mean they lost their technology.
Not to mention, does anyone honestly and truly beleive that the IoM doesn't have tracking and targeting systems? during battle UFP ships are usually on impulse, not warp. Even at max impulse , do they honeslty think they will out run an imperial ship? It's time for all to just face the facts...The IoM may not have every little gadget the UFP does, but they're not in the stone age either. They have shields as well, torpedos, las cannons, many different hosts of weapons, so does UFP. I don't know why people are still trying to deny that either side is not going to be capable of destroying the other....UFP lose ships to many different races of aliens, even some who's technology isn't as on par with theirs.
simple fact is that both sides would find a way to kill each other effectively. the UFP arn't a bunch of idiots, neither are the IoM. There would be huge battles, tons of losses on both sides. Anyone who says different, whether they be on the 40K side or UFP side, is just being ignorant and won't see the other side of the story.
nosferatu1001 wrote:karima - they have enough difficulty with teleporting onto a planet, whereas you reckon they could teleport safely onto a starship moving at warp 9? Through Shields? Um, unlikely.
They CAN. In Dark Creed, they teleport through space, through shields into an infernus class ship which is protected by a psyker (an this is no weak psyker. This is a LOL I PICK UP MARINE SQUADS/DREADS AND CHUCK EM ABOUT AND COVER THE WHOLE OF MY SHIP WITH A PSYCHIC SHIELD AND BLOW UP 13 ENEMY PSYKERS AT THE SAME TIME Psyker . And by the way, to all you people saying that UFPs light travel will own the imperium- A cairn tombship travels faster than light, and it still took ages to reach the boros gate. I win
Gorgarak wrote:I can't beleive this thread is still going, with people debating about the exact same things.
lets see if I can sum this up in a nutshell....
40K fans beleive that with their superior numbers, firepower, ground force, space marines, and technology, they would win out over the UFP
UFP fan beleive that IoM weapons won't damage their ships because they are too fast, could sense an imperial fleet from awhile away, their shields are better, and that tactically, they will outsmart the IoM and make their paltry numbers make up for it by taking out xxx amount of ships for every one of theirs.
I don't know if it's just me, but I've watched Star trek episodes....pretty much all seasons, from TNG - Voyager. Not once have I seen a fleet of feds come out of warp, blast away an enemy fleet, hit their warp engines to go into warp so they dont get hit, then warp back, rinse and repeat. I think If i remember correctly they can't do this because once they put shields up and engage weapons, they take away too much energy from warp engines. Not to mention if they disengaged they would be left open to be destroyed. No commander would drop shields, turn around, and take the chance of warping, leaving themselves open for attack for up to 10 seconds or more. Im not saying this tactic would work...im just saying they would most likely lose alot of ships inthe process. Oh wait. that won't happen because IoM weapons are too weak and unsophisticated to break their shields. My question is this...If the imperium can take on Eldar and win (technology which would be at least on par with UFP, if not much more advanced, to be fair) then why would the UFP be any different? Remember Eldar = Former rulers of Galaxy. just cause they lost numbers doesn't mean they lost their technology.
Not to mention, does anyone honestly and truly beleive that the IoM doesn't have tracking and targeting systems? during battle UFP ships are usually on impulse, not warp. Even at max impulse , do they honeslty think they will out run an imperial ship? It's time for all to just face the facts...The IoM may not have every little gadget the UFP does, but they're not in the stone age either. They have shields as well, torpedos, las cannons, many different hosts of weapons, so does UFP. I don't know why people are still trying to deny that either side is not going to be capable of destroying the other....UFP lose ships to many different races of aliens, even some who's technology isn't as on par with theirs.
simple fact is that both sides would find a way to kill each other effectively. the UFP arn't a bunch of idiots, neither are the IoM. There would be huge battles, tons of losses on both sides. Anyone who says different, whether they be on the 40K side or UFP side, is just being ignorant and won't see the other side of the story.
I am arguing on behalf of the Federation and I consider myself a 40k fan much more than a Star Trek fan. I know you’ve watched all the Star Trek episodes but I think you’d have to agree that many of the Star Trek writers are kinda dumb – possessing a high degree of technological and scientific understanding but lacking in practical common sense.
I for one will never get over why Fed captains don’t simply beam unrecognized life signs aboard the ship into space during a boarding action. In one STNG episode two Klingons tear-ass through the Enterprise whopping on every security guard they encounter. The whole time Picard coulda just had the two Klingon life signs beamed into a holding cell. In episodes where the Trekkies are constantly beamed aboard Borg ships, instead of fiddling with all the scanners and relays and whatnot they could just have Jori whip up a nuke (I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard being that it’s like 400-year-old tech) and beam it into the middle of the Borg cube.
From a tactical/military perspective I don’t think the Star trek writers are as finely honed as your average 13-year-old 40k player. So strategic comparisons fall apart pretty quickly.
incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.
All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.
In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.
The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).
The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.
Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.
From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.
Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).
I thought that to be a given. Anyone who watches any ST at all, knows that it takes days and weeks for them to get anywhere. The primary fleets would not ever make it back in time to stop an invasion.
Besides, the argument that "Shields and lasers lulz!" for Star Trek is just stupid. Star Trek fanboys always claim that their ships can't be hit by anything, hence the star wars vs star trek debacle.
If you have a race of man that has the know how to in case the dead or near dead into suits or armor, live thousands of years, and create the massive structures shown...it is heavily understood that coming across a UFP ship they would figure out a way to blow it out of the sky. They aren't going to sit on their thumbs saying, "oh well guys, their shields stop our weaponry...let's go home"
It took the Imperium 7,000 years to come up with the idea of putting a twin heavy bolter on top of the Rhino.
In STOS the Enterprise was in combat with a Klingon cruiser. The Klingon cruiser was doing warp speed strafing runs. No big deal but the Enterprise was boobytrooped and couldn't do same until Scotty put downt he bottle for a minute and pressed the GO button. They were getting pounded because they literally couldn't pivot the ship and its guns fast enough to get a bead.
Picard maneuver is short warp hop that has the effect of putting the ship in two places at once, and more importantly appearing/firing point blank in front of you.
In multiple engagements Enterprise is firing and being fired upon by opposing ships at warp speed. Torpedoes are specifically noted as being capable of being fired at warp speed. The imperium literally can't track that.
The Imperium is too myriad to be beaten by your puny federation!
Various threats to the FoP
-The Grey Knights going LOL and teleporting and owning
-The Emperor blasting them to smithereens
-The Daemonhost Cherubael going LOL I CAN KILL WARLORD TITANS BY FLYING ATIT REALLY FAST. WHEN I'M WAAY BELOW STRENGTH. I EAT SHIPS RAWR!
-Assassins
-Psykers (much more prevalent in Imperium).
-Galen Marek pulling their Star Destroyers out of the sky. (Had to say it )
-Heat seeking missiles (gothic war omnibus)
-Seeing into the future.
-Void torpedos (I rip a hole in spaaace )
-The Templars Psykologis. (Infiltration/sapping enemy morale ftw)
-Officio Sabatorum (need explaining?)
for one will never get over why Fed captains don’t simply beam unrecognized life signs aboard the ship into space during a boarding action. In one STNG episode two Klingons tear-ass through the Enterprise whopping on every security guard they encounter. The whole time Picard coulda just had the two Klingon life signs beamed into a holding cell. In episodes where the Trekkies are constantly beamed aboard Borg ships, instead of fiddling with all the scanners and relays and whatnot they could just have Jori whip up a nuke (I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard being that it’s like 400-year-old tech) and beam it into the middle of the Borg cube.
I agree 100 percent. Maybe they cant do it because of the signature on their com badges or something..maybe they consantly keep enemy teleporters from locking on and warping them away. Thats all I could think of.
In STOS the Enterprise was in combat with a Klingon cruiser. The Klingon cruiser was doing warp speed strafing runs. No big deal but the Enterprise was boobytrooped and couldn't do same until Scotty put downt he bottle for a minute and pressed the GO button. They were getting pounded because they literally couldn't pivot the ship and its guns fast enough to get a bead.
Picard maneuver is short warp hop that has the effect of putting the ship in two places at once, and more importantly appearing/firing point blank in front of you.
In multiple engagements Enterprise is firing and being fired upon by opposing ships at warp speed. Torpedoes are specifically noted as being capable of being fired at warp speed. The imperium literally can't track that.
Touche. It sounds completly doable. The one thing I wonder is could an entire fleet of star ships do that at once? or how many times could they do it before the imperium got used to the tactic? Im not saying they would. Im just curious to see how it all would turn out. It would be funny seeing some imperial captain shooting his pilots on the ship because they can't track a UFP ship. lol. It would be a funny sight.
The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will.
I'm going to bow out of this argument with what I started with.
This is pointless, star trek fanboys are more annoying than any other kind of fanboy. They believe that the ships and "science" (ha ha) are superior to anything else that has ever, and will ever exist. There is no budging with them. They believe that UPF shielding and beam weapons can destroy all, even though as I stated this technology was uttery devastated by the klingons, romulans, borg, and dominion. Each time their shields nor beams did hold.
You have a foe made up of primarily scientists and humanitarians facing a vastly larger foe with absolutely no reservations about slaughtering every single living being in a system of destroying entire planets. Starfleet has NEVER faced a foe like that. The klingons wanted territory, the borg wanted to assimilate their collective and improve it, the dominion wanted control, and the romulans want power. Not a single one of these factions would go anywhere near the lengths of the imperium, which would be absolutely contented in leaving all quadrants in smoking ruin with no life remaining.
The "almighty" federation is constantly beat to pieces and those "superior" warships and shields get one shotted constantly in on screen battles.
You guys are fanboys and making crap up.
In show examples are given of how long it takes for fleets to move about, and how little defenses can hold up vs. the enemy in movies, deep space nine primarily. The imperium would alter their technology after the first failed salvo (even though that wouldn't happen) and quickly find new ways of fighting a new foe. They survived the chaos forces, tyranids, eldar, necron, tau, orks ...... all of these forces and more are infinitely more powerful than the UFP.
You aren't even considering the ramifications of such a fight. Blown engines tearing holes in the warp and causing evil to poor onto the alpha quadrant. Or sucking the ships into the warp altogether while making a jump. There are many things that fed ships simply would not be equipped to deal with.
We know you love Star Trek. I love Star Trek. BUT, the roving progressive band of scientists, explorers, and philosophers could not ever take on 40k, star wars, battlestar galactica, or anything else at all of a genre made for war. PERIOD
Terminus wrote:The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will.
I doubt it would go that far. they'd probably just launch a bunch of mines and watch the fireworks.
A lot of trek stuff works on plottonium, so there no definite numbers to work with.
Well, this thread has gone completely off from my original intentions for it, but ah well, might as well contribute my own two cents.
Now, I just have to refute the idea that Federation ships can flit around at warp, and appear, fire and run away before the Imperial Navy can reply and thus destroy a 40k fleet without any damage to itself. We have to note that Trek weapons simply aren't that powerful. The payload for a photon torpedo is 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter which results in a total yield of about 64 megatons, while a ship level phaser seems to dish out 3.6 gigawatts of energy a minute. The shields on a front line Federation ship like the Galaxy class can handle about 3311 gigawatts of energy being pumped into it before total collapse.
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html << calc citatations 359,
Now, I don't know what the yield of 40k weapon is, but if lances are powerful enough to 'obliterate continents' and the average 40k ship can survive a hit from a lance then we must assume that the shield on a 40k ship are enough to stand up to that amount of firepower without being destroyed. I don't know about you but I think it'd take a LOT more than 3311 gigawatts of power to obliterate a continent. This means that even a glancing hit from a 40k weapon would totally annihilate a front line Federation vessel. Even if the crews of a battleship were told to fire blindly into the Federation fleet....sooner or later they'd get a hit. And sooner or later the fleet would be ground down due to a simple lack of numbers. After Wolf 359, the loss of a mere 39 starships was considered a HUGE defeat that took a whole year to recover from.
Furthermore, we have to remember that Federation starships do not travel in fleets. How many times have we seen the Enterprise be the ONLY vessel in range to deal with major crises? Even along the Romulan Neutral Zone and in the Sol system itself, it seems that the Enterprise is the only ship to deal with problems. If the Imperial Navy blind jumped into a random planet, even a major one like Holy---I mean, Earth or Vulcan. They'd have a high chance of coming in with no space borne opposition. They'd be able to land troops and have a significant presence on the surface of the ground before the Federation could get a sizable fleet together. And given that the Romulans expected to conquer Vulcan with a mere 2000 troops (TNG: Unification), I'd expect ANY Federation planet to fall to either the Guard or Space Marines without too much of a fight.
And finally, refuting the claim that Federation ships don't have any supply lines to sever, we only have to look at Voyager. If Voyager could refill ANY system without stopping at a specialized Federation refueling, rearming and restocking station, why would they have had to ration their replicators and bring a chef on board? Why would the Enterprise have to return to space stations for routine maintenance? (TNG: Starship Mine) It's quite obvious that the Federation needs its supply bases and planets as much as any other scifi civilization.
Nightsbane - The Culture is from Ian M Banks series of novels. They leave "AI"s (actually that doesnt give you an idea of how advanced they are...) to manage everything, and leave themselves just pre-Sublimation
Chris WWII - you ignore that a) the Imp shields dont stop torpedoes b) you have to hit the ship that can out manourver you before its shield strength is important and c) that means seeing the ship - which can jump to warp whenever it needs to AND can travel at .5c (full impulse) which is significantly faster than an Imp ship AND can turn on the spot due to inertialess movement - with your lightspeed sensors.
As for destructive power the 200isoton load can kill a planet. More than enough to deal with an un-reinforced by SIF Imp ship. *1* torpedo.
The reason Voyager had issues was it was heavily damaged after the travel and had its energy reserves reduced. Assuming it has enough energy it can create anything it wants.
Additionally the space dock was to remove madeup particle a - which in later episodes could be removed without the need for a space dock.
So, advantages that make an ST ship unkillable as far as 40k ships are concerned:
1) 0 - 0.5c instantly. No 40k ship can approach this speed
2) To allow above inertialess manourvdering. You know in BFG when changing direction takes forever?
ST ships dont have to worry about that. They can turn on a pin and move in another direction, effectively instantly.
3) Faster than light sensors, which for the illinformed above DO work at warp speed - so they know wehere you are from light years away.
4) The ability to launch torpedoes while at warp.
While the torps dont have Warp drives they do have a warp gen in the launch tube. At warp this means they have a "hand off" warp field to let them cross between bubbles.
So the Imp ship, which cannot see the ST ship, gets hit by somethiung it cannot see that goes straight through its shields, one shotting it - as they can target areas precisely, like ooooh that 1KM long engine. Bang, gone. As is your ship.
5) The ability to LEARN NEW STUFF. In the imperium this gets you executed.
And we're back to regurgitating the same technobabble nonsense that has been struck down repeatedly. I'm starting to see what Nightbane meant about Star Trek nerds. Haha.
I think the reason why the Trek fanboys keep saying the imeperiums technology and speed, etc, doesnt match star trek is based on a simple fact....there is hardly any recordings of imperial ship battles. Perhaps people who play battle fleet gothic may have some decent ideas on ship backrounds and powers, shields etc, but think of it this way...star trek was a TV series that has had hundreds of episodes to think up and rehash the same old stories with new excitements. They got into ship on ship tactics alot, maneuvers, etc. Just because the 40k universe doesn't talk about its ships that much (except when they say they show up to do an exterminatus) doesn't mean their ships are all of a sudden incapable of standing toe to toe with enemy ships, or employ no strategy or power to engage enemy fleets.
I found this online, I suggest everyone read it.
Design features of Imperial Navy vesselsOffensive WeaponryWeapons batteries usually are the primary armament for most warships. Since each battery consists of numerous ranks of individual weapons, whole sections of the starship's hull can be covered by gun ports, launcher systems, turrets and weapon housings. The weapons employed vary immensely: plasma projectors, close-range missile launchers, laser cannons, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars have been found on Imperial ships. These batteries fire in co-ordinated salvoes, to increase the chances to hit and amount of damage done to a target.
Lances are energy weapons of extreme power. Usually mounted in large and heavily armoured turrets, lances use triple or even quad energy projectors to focus its energy into a concentrated beam, capable of burning through even the most armoured hull and cutting smaller vessels in half.
Torpedoes are long-range missiles carried by many Imperial Navy vessels. From ~60 feet (on destroyers) to ~200 feet (on cruisers) to ~300 feet (on battleships) in length, these weapons are powered by a fusion-based plasma reactor which also doubles as its warhead. Once launched, the plasma drive propels the torpedo towards its foe, whilst starting an energy build-up that will detonate the projectile once it reaches its target. Most torpedoes only have limited detection capabilities and will not track and engage its target unless its passes within a few thousand kilometres of the target vessel. Unlike weapons batteries and lances, torpedoes cannot be deflected by a ship's void shields - most shields intercept incoming fire based on its speed. Torpedoes travel slowly enough (relatively speaking) that shields will not intercept them and they can pass through these powerful energy barriers unimpeded.
Nova Cannons are huge weapons. Normally mounted in the prow of the ship so that the ship's engines can compensate for the recoil, these guns use gravimetric impellers to propel a projectile close to the speed of light. After reaching a preset distance, the projectile implodes with a force potent enough to cripple most vessels and/or damage several at once.
As all have read, that is the weapons array of an imperial ship. The only weapon it says has problems tracking enemies is the torpedo, and it says that it only has problems tracking unless it passes within a few thousand Kilmoeters of the target vessel. From what I know, most UFP weapons are around 10-20 KM range or so i think. I could be wrong about that of course, but fact is they would definatly be close enough for a torpedo to track and hit.
every other weapon mentioned sounds legit. Missles not so much, but the rail gun, nova cannon, lances and torpedos sound like they would be able to do some good damage. AND still track the enemy ships.
Again, im not sitting here saying the UFP wouldn't be able to destroy an imperial ship. Im saying that it's compelte and utter nonsense to beleive that the imperium wouldnt be able to kill a UFP ship. If someone can't face those very simple facts...then keep on whining fan boys.
Star Trek NEVER got into ship to ship or any kind of tactics.
I like the argument that the trekkies try to make about being able to B*-slap the opponent and run away since this NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OF THE SHOWS IN ANY VERSION! How many times in how many versions of Star Trek did the combat consist of either parking in front of their opponent and sissy-laser fighting it out or one ship running away from another while getting shot up the wa-zoo? Even the infantry shoot outs are sit behind something and pop-up to shoot after your opponent has ducked for no apparent reason. The cover by the way doesn't look like it could stop a BB gun.
Here is how the Imperium would win. Drop on top of their objective from another dimension, target planet Exterminatus, move on. It doesn't matter how many Imperial ships you think you can shoot and run away when I've just ended your life and carrier. Yeah that's right, no pension for you because the people you were fighting for are now a collection of nuclear ashes. No chance to start a family or political carrier because %80 of your species is now dead. "Oh but we have collonies on other plantes". No, you have Pit Stops with perminant residence, maybe 200 people a piece, who after they hear how miserably you failed to do your job will treat you like a leper. You say you will vow vengence? Hunt me down until the stars burn out and all of that emo-poetic crap? Fine, I'll just keep burning everything you share a chromosome with until there is nothing left.
I wonder what this thread would look like on a Trekkie Fan-boi site.
EDIT: Don't get me started on Hand to Hand Combat!
ComputerGeek01 wrote:Star Trek NEVER got into ship to ship or any kind of tactics.
I like the argument that the trekkies try to make about being able to B*-slap the opponent and run away since this NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OF THE SHOWS IN ANY VERSION! How many times in how many versions of Star Trek did the combat consist of either parking in front of their opponent and sissy-laser fighting it out or one ship running away from another while getting shot up the wa-zoo? Even the infantry shoot outs are sit behind something and pop-up to shoot after your opponent has ducked for no apparent reason. The cover by the way doesn't look like it could stop a BB gun.
Here is how the Imperium would win. Drop on top of their objective from another dimension, target planet Exterminatus, move on. It doesn't matter how many Imperial ships you think you can shoot and run away when I've just ended your life and carrier. Yeah that's right, no pension for you because the people you were fighting for are now a collection of nuclear ashes. No chance to start a family or political carrier because %80 of your species is now dead. "Oh but we have collonies on other plantes". No, you have Pit Stops with perminant residence, maybe 200 people a piece, who after they hear how miserably you failed to do your job will treat you like a leper. You say you will vow vengence? Hunt me down until the stars burn out and all of that emo-poetic crap? Fine, I'll just keep burning everything you share a chromosome with until there is nothing left.
I wonder what this thread would look like on a Trekkie Fan-boi site.
EDIT: Don't get me started on Hand to Hand Combat!
Anyone who has claimed that ships turn around instantly or warp instantly has not watched a single damned episode. Warp drives take time and energy to engage. As far as turning:
DS9: Galaxy glass ship tries to turn and run from jem-hadar = KRAAAAKBOOM explodes will turning like a million ton semi
The example is repeated throughout that series, the previous series, and much of the movies. The big ships turn slower whether they should or not.
If you guys are such huge star trek fans, you should know that it's combat is based off of imperial sea battles of the 17-18th centuries. Not modern dogfighting. Ships move in slowly, orbit each other and fire broadsides. They arrive, prepare, and fight. They do not warp in, blast, and warp out over and over.
Frankly for all of their technology the UFP fights battles like a bunch of monkeys with space age battle rifles... They have the technology, but don't know what to do with it outside making a lot of noice and hitting something once in awhile.
Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength
Keep in mind that, by my calculations, the nova cannon's explosion has an aproximate diameter of 21 THOUSAND kilometers. Lets assume that a ship's base is about 3.5K K, (it is given as "a few thousand" and IRL, it is about 12.5mm (1/2 of 25mm) then each mm is .28 Km in BFG and nova cannons use the standard 3" template, giving it a diameter of 76mm, or 21 thousand Km BFG scale. The diameter of earth is 12.7 thousand kilometers. Have Fun!
Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength
You know, I always wondered why Star Trek never introduced seats with harnesses to the bridge, so half the essential personnel isn't thrown down the hallway every time the ship shakes.
Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength
You know, I always wondered why Star Trek never introduced seats with harnesses to the bridge, so half the essential personnel isn't thrown down the hallway every time the ship shakes.
That's true, and the Trekkie fanboys always seem to LOVE making up ideas for their fleets that would offer HUGE combat advantages. So why haven't the Trek captains used it? Yes, irl it's cause the people who write Trek know nothing of military tactics, but if we're looking at it from an in universe perspective.....Trek captain's aren't idiots. Naive? Yes. But dumb? No. Picard showed himself to be a kind of tactical genius (not as good as CREED but good nonetheless ). If he could do this warp in, fire weapons, warp out, repeat tactics that the fanboys swear will destroy the Imperium....then he would have! He would have used it on the Borg. Hell, all of Starfleet would have done it at Wolf 359, and NOT lost 39 out of 40 ships.
And to nosferatu1001
True, they don't stop torpedoes. But 40k torpedoes are VERY different from Star Trek torpedoes. A 40k torpedo is a massive, slow moving projectile, fired at extreme range, and even those torpedoes can be intercepted once they get within a few thousand kilometers. A Star Trek photon torpedo on the other hand bears much more in common to the weapons batteries of a 40k ship. A fast moving projectile fired at a few thousand kilometers of range. These weapons are more than capable of being intercepted by void shields. And, of course a 200 isoton weapon can destroy a planet you say? Well, 2 things:
1) Please give me source for that. As according to VOY: Scorpion, the yield of an average photon torpedo is 200 isotons, and that yield seems to be nowhere near the amount necessary to destroy a planet.
2) The Romulans and Federation have to have reasonably equivalent technology, otherwise one or more of the factions would have just....annihilated each other with superior tech. This implies that if the Federation can manufacture a planet busting 200 isoton weapons, then the Romulans would possess such weapons themselves. If they had such a weapon, then why wouldn't they have used it against the Founder's Planet?
As to logistics....we have to note that the Federation's replicators isn't a magical device. It has limits. It does not create matter, it merely reassembles it into a new form. When the raw material that the replicators utilizes runs out.....what do they do? They have to return to a station to resupply. If those supply stations have been overrun.....what can they do? They can either surrender....or starve. And even a large ship like the Enterprise must constantly stop for resupply, and replacement of materials that can't be replicated. If replicators can make anything...why does the Enterprise need to stop to get components like a warp core hatch? Why does the Federation assemble ships in shipyards instead of building a giant replicator and saying, 'Galaxy class ship' ? Obviously...they can't. They need their supply base just like any other civilization.
Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.
Unless you are the Imperium, in which case you can only use designs made thousands of years ago, which were found in an archaelogical dig and sanctioned by the Adepts of Mars.
Killkrazy wrote:Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.
That's true....but the Federation hasn't shown it has the ability to scale up to the level necessary to destroy a planet. Just because they can build a 64 megaton anti-matter warhead. The example given is humanity right now. We've begun to develop antimatter technology, and we can create some antimatter. That doesn't mean we can create massive anti matter bombs. And even if they COULD build a planet destroying bomb....would it be a practical military weapon? Once again, we can look at current humanity. We can build 50~100 megaton nukes like Tsar Bomba, but those weapons are NOT practical. It's not just a simple matter of scaling up.
Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength
Fuses.
It's not difficult.
And yet they still don't use them. Maybe they should get some electricians and, you know, pay them. (I know they have this bs communist-utopia-we-don't-need-currency thing but beer and wimmens would do).
Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.
The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.
Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.
Is that easy enough to grasp?
Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.
200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.
Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.
The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.
Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.
Is that easy enough to grasp?
Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.
200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.
Oh no, we just lost a planet. That only leaves, what, millions left?
Attrition. That's what will win the Imperium this war.
Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.
The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.
Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.
Is that easy enough to grasp?
Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.
200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.
Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.
Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.
Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.
The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.
Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.
Is that easy enough to grasp?
Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.
200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.
Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.
Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.
Seconded.
Besides, if you want to play broken tactics, I'll just get on the phone to Abbadon and see if I can borrow his Blackstone Fortresses and Planet Killer. He's usually cool with it, as long as I don't scratch the paintwork.
=Chuckles= Thank you Terminus. I've noticed that Trek nerds are the ones who get the most pissed off when you say someone could beat the Federation. I think it's cause they realized that the scale of the Federation versus any other scifi civ that they can't really survive if threatened. It's quite amusing in all honesty..
But in all honesty.....to nosferatu.
1) Picard Maneuver: If the Federation has these magic ftl sensors that makes the Picard maneuver ineffective against Federation ships, why did Data have to rely on technobabble compression of deep space gasses in order to counter it? How come he didn't say, "Well, sir. I can activate the FTL sensors and see that the Stargazer is ACTUALLY right here." ?
2) Warp Combat: Alright....so quick question. DS9. That station doesn't have warp drive, does it? It's pretty much fixed in place, right? So why did the Klingons and Dominion not use this fancy, warp in, blast, warp out tactics? If the only thing stopping a fleet from doing that tactic is there enemy possessing the same warp drive....how come they didn't use it against DS9? Or why didn't the Breen use it on Earth? There are so many situation when that tactic would have been useful IF they could actually utilize it. The fact that they don't either shows that they can't do it, or it's not a viable tactic.
3) Photon torpedoes (Range). I never said they were like a lance. I said they weren't like Imperial torpedoes, and that they were more similar to the missile launchers in Imperial weapons batteries. I only compared it to a lance, when i said that the damage yield of a lance and a 200 isoton photo torp were roughly equivalent. Not to mention, sure. The photon torpedo can physically travel 1 light second, but that really doesn't matter....can they accurately TARGET something at one light second? The answer is quite simply: no. Federation ships seem to engage OTHER SHIPS at distances of a few kilometers as seen in the few major space battles Trek has shown. If they were capable of hitting targets at one light second....why didn't they do so? Why do we see Federation ships flitter around the Borg cube in First Contact instead of stay one light second away and pound it with photon torpedoes?
4) Photon Torpedo (Yield): You kind of just beat yourself there. If a 200 isoton weapon isn't even standard supply, then most likely Trek ships owuld be firing those 25 isoton weapons at Imperial ships, and we've demonstrated that an Imperial ship could take a 200 isoton weapon, then a 25 isoton weapon is going to be child's play. But ummmmmmm, what the feth does SALT have to do with any of this? I'm mildly confused by your statement there.....
If you'd like some further reading, I recommend: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/ . The site it's from is Star Wars vs. Star Trek, but the Trek calculations and analysis are perfectly valid for our discussion here.
Also, in the latest offering of Star Trek filmography, take note that the Romulan vessel, a former mining ship, utterly destroyed a Federation peacekeeping force within moments of it's arrival. That was a mining vessel. Not a warship, or a doomsday device, but a mining vessel. Imagine, then, what a fully prepared Retribution Battleship could inflict on the same fleet. Added to the points provided by ChrisWWII above, and you'll see why such a conflict is so one-sided.
Star Trek would be a hell of a lot better if they just plugged in the AI and let it run their ships at super-human speeds and stopped just sitting in front of one another blasting away.
Why are star trek fans so aggressively obnoxious? No other setting seems to breed large quantities of fans unable to accept that another fictional setting might have a higher technology level then their fictional setting.
It's like the superhero A vs superhero B arguments I use to see on the playground when I was at primary school.
Scott: In all honesty, I think it's a reaction to the way society views Trek fans. I mean the word 'Trekkie' is something understood by everyone, and it seems saying that you like Trek to someone automatically labels you a rabid Trekkie who goes around in a Starfleet uniform, and fantasizes about Uhura and all the other chars. Saying your like other scifi series hasn't had that same reaction from others....or at least that's what happened in my personal experience. I'd almost think that their determination to prove Trek is the best comes from this. If they're gonna be labeled a crazy fan of a series, might as well insist that your series is the best EVAR!!!!one1!!
Every fandom has a couple that are OTT. With ST though it seems to be a bigger chunk and they are dedicated not to telling everyone that their show is better (which is at least rational) but that their fictional technology is better (which just makes no sense, especially for a relatively near future show with no significant military aspects)
To take the SW vs ST that seems to crop up all the time, to argue the relative merits of the films might be interesting. To argue the relative levels of technology is bizarre.
I doubt that trekkies get any more ostracized than people who collect toy soldiers, but maybe I'm wrong.
I like Star Trek; the Original Series and the Next Generation were both good shows, and Deep Space 9 was decent (If a Babylon 5 knockoff at times). However, the fanbase manages to tick me off enough to actually make me often on the other side of Star Trek debates. When I see an "Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer" thread online, you'll typically find a thousand rabid online fans screaming about how it doesn't matter that the Star Destroyer has firepower that can destroy the surface of a planet, far superior traveling speed, and shields that can withstand whatever the Enterprise puts out: The answer will always be "The Enterprise finds some ridiculously complicated technical solution that I can't specify and SAVES THE DAY!"
These fans are like Star Wars fans who talk about Jedi being better than any other fictional heroes, or Halo fans who think that the Master Chief can take on entire armies of Space Marines; they don't reflect well upon the rest of the people who watch the show.
Then there are the REALLY rabid fans. The people who go to conventions in Darth Vader helmets or Spock ears...
Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?
Nightsbane - the manouver is almost "never" used because other ships have >light speed sensors. It was used against the Ferengi ship precisely because it didnt have subspace sensors.
Chris
Yes, yes they do have FTL sensors - how do you think they navigate at warp, guess work? S you b s p a c e. its hoew they see whats happening light years away, ya know?
3) each photon torpedo makes a cruise missile lok like a dummy. It has waaaay more accurate weapons than the 40k universe, as it isnt a mostly dumb projectile.
And why did they flit around the cube? becuause the closer they are the hard er it is to lock onto someone as your relative angle changes faster? Which against a 40k vessel with the turning circle of a planetary orbit...
4) You 've never heard of dialable yield have you. 200isoton is level 10. level 1 is fireworks. ALL mark 6s can go up to level 10. Again, research, try it some time. 200 isoton is what they *can* use on *every single* warhead. Except it breaks their current treaties on size of weapons. Quantum torpedoes go even higher.
There is plenty examples of 40k battles in fluff - try the current Word Bearers novel, for example. Its naval warfare, 18th century style, with rolling broadsides and an occasional nmod to the 3rd dimension.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Nightsbane - the manouver is almost "never" used because other ships have >light speed sensors. It was used against the Ferengi ship precisely because it didnt have subspace sensors.
Chris
Yes, yes they do have FTL sensors - how do you think they navigate at warp, guess work? S you b s p a c e. its hoew they see whats happening light years away, ya know?
3) each photon torpedo makes a cruise missile lok like a dummy. It has waaaay more accurate weapons than the 40k universe, as it isnt a mostly dumb projectile.
And why did they flit around the cube? becuause the closer they are the hard er it is to lock onto someone as your relative angle changes faster? Which against a 40k vessel with the turning circle of a planetary orbit...
4) You 've never heard of dialable yield have you. 200isoton is level 10. level 1 is fireworks. ALL mark 6s can go up to level 10. Again, research, try it some time. 200 isoton is what they *can* use on *every single* warhead. Except it breaks their current treaties on size of weapons. Quantum torpedoes go even higher.
There is plenty examples of 40k battles in fluff - try the current Word Bearers novel, for example. Its naval warfare, 18th century style, with rolling broadsides and an occasional nmod to the 3rd dimension.
Let's talk about that 200-isoton yield.
1. For starters, the Deep Space Nine Tech Manual states that quantum torpedos have a yield of 50+ isotons.
2. In First Contact, it requires 4 quantum torpedoes to destroy a Borg sphere.
3. Therefore, a Borg sphere requires at least 200 isotons-worth of fire to destroy, by simple arithmetic.
4. A Borg sphere is TINY compared to an Imperial battleship. Perhaps the size of a frigate.
5. So yes, a Starfleet ship could possibly destroy an Imperial Frigate with a single torpedo. It would take a hell of a lot more than that to take out a capital ship, however, and this is all assuming that shielding and armour technology are comparable, which is an enormous assumption. It's entirely possible that neither side would be able to hurt the other at all, because their shields run on entirely different principles.
6. Furthermore, if that Starfleet ship takes a single shot during this engagement, it's dead meat. No question about that, the energy generated by Imperial weapons is orders of magnitude higher than that created by phasors, cutting beams, or any standard ship-borne weapon in ST.
7. It'll also need to keep on the bounce constantly, which will sort of mess up firing solutions, because if it stands still for a minute the Imperials will simply teleport troops aboard, and if there is one area where the Federation simply cannot compete it is man-to-man combat.
8. And no, teleportation is not unreliable against an enemy that has no way of jamming it. Scatter is explicitly stated to represent knowing enemy action to jam teleportation, through sorcery,
The way I see it, 40k would win this fight since Starfleet hasn't been a real military power since they made peace with the Klingons in the late Kirk era.
The USS Defiant that arrives in the later part of the Deep Space 9 series is the first federation warship to be built in a long time.
Some of the alternate reality federations (like the one that never made peace with the Klingons) might stand a better chance devoting more time and resources to warfare.
In general Star Trek tech seems more reliable and uses more finesse, while Imperium tech is unreliable (to the extreme in some cases like warp travel) and relies more on raw strength.
The Necrons seem to have the closest parallel to Federation warp drive (much faster than light without passing through the warp), and they have managed to land on Mars
bypassing the patrolling Imperial navy (but the last ship was destroyed after landing). A real star trek tech level armada could do real damage to the Imperium with surprise
attacks. Main difference between Star Trek Warp drive, and Necron propulsion systems seems to be that Necrons drop below light speed to fire their weapons, while
star trek frequently targets a hostile vessels warp drive while travelling at high warp themselves to stop them (enterprise is frequently the target of this kind of attack though).
Comparing weapon tech, both sides have weapons capable of tearing a hole in reality with the Imperium having an advantage in numbers here since they exist in a state of constant warfare.
Starfleet being more explorers and police than an army have less weapons on their vessels, and less powerful standard armaments.
Comparing the Imperium to one of the star trek antagonist races would be a more even fight (in some cases, warping to the home planet of a species and erasing the entire species
from history is just plain cheating).
The Dominion and the Borg would most likely have a better chance (hmmmm, Borg assimilating Space Marines, would their superior physiology manage to neutralize the
Borg nanoprobes like species 8472?. On the other hand, Space Marines adapting to most weapons fire neutralizing it completely ) since both races have a culture more suited for warfare.
In a straight up fight, the Imperium would win hands down, but each side given a 100 year warning would tip the scales in favour of Starfleet with their superior technology.
Necroman wrote:Then there are the REALLY rabid fans. The people who go to conventions in Darth Vader helmets or Spock ears...
There's a full video of a Star Wars-themed wedding floating around the internet. The bride was Leia (of course), but the really bizarre part was the groom dressed as Vader.
Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?
Good motion. This topic has definatly become possibly the worst beaten horse I've seen on this site yet, and I contributed to it. Dont think i've had a bigger 40K pride moment in all my life.
But I'd have to say I kinda prefer the star trek setting for the universe. The fact is most intelligent life forms out there would most likely have some room for diplomacy. Not all, but alot. I dont know bout anyone else, but if an alien species landed on earth tomorrow i'd be thrilled to meet a potential new being, knowing I wasn't alone in the Galaxy.
Although I must admit, the 40K version of the universe is the worst potential outcome. Everyone constantly wanting to kill each other, daemons posessing bodies and killing humans all over, random alien species without number who's only purpose is eating or killing all. I think the Star trek universe is more realitic for sure. 40K is just damn cool =)
I'd have to say that my preferred setting is 40k....I mean, I enjoy Star Trek, but the naivete and the communist tendencies of the Federation tend to really grate on me. In all honesty, one of the reasons I love 40k is the fact that 40k kind of has that modern fantasy feel, which is a genre I really want to see more exploration into. Hell, my friends and I once had a nice discussion on how to fight the Battle of Pelennor Fields with World War 2 tech. It was actually quite fun. =D (Image of Stukas pounding the crap out of Minas Tirith much?)
But as to beating a dead horse....this trope went TOTALLY off topic from what I wanted. I didn't want a 'Which side would kick the other sides ass?' debate like what we got.....I wanted a 'What would each sides reactions be to the other?' discussion. But ah well....you get what you get.
Reactions? The UFP would try to get the Imperium to join, and if that didnt work would try a "neutral zone" style treaty. If that didnt work they would beat the enemy back to the home planet and then...stop. And look for a treaty again.
Kirks era was much simpler - hit it or sh*g it seemed to be the order of the day!
Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.
The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.
Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.
Is that easy enough to grasp?
Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.
200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.
Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.
Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.
Seconded.
Besides, if you want to play broken tactics, I'll just get on the phone to Abbadon and see if I can borrow his Blackstone Fortresses and Planet Killer. He's usually cool with it, as long as I don't scratch the paintwork.
That made me laugh
By the way people, read what I posted before, as it completely wrecks your argument In comes the constellation guns a'blazing.
Then in comes Eisenhorn along with his ol' buddy ol' pal cherubael. Cherbael wrecks the ship. Then twiddles his thumbs. Then wrecks more ships. Then goes away. (He destroys a warlord titan by being there ; ) ).
Or even....
Twenty Grey Knight terminators teleport in and blow up a ship (Stop telling me it's not impossible. They do it whilst into warp transition into a moving infernus class cruiser with shields and what not. It also has a psyker protecting it. That's better than a retribution class capital ship, and for the record the ship has a nova cannon )
Or even....
The Emperor blowing you up. Seriously. Not too difficult for someone who can keep the Chaos powers from invading, rip holes in the universe ie the storm of the emperors wrath whilst being on a life support machine.
Or even....
Being attacked by assasins.
Or even...
Being attacked by daemons. And don't tell me the imperium only. The imperium has captured plenty of daemons in its time.
You get my point. The imperium has so many ways of destroying the UFP, and yes they can work on a faster than light scale. If anyone wants even more methods, just ask
nosferatu1001 wrote:6. You ignore the thing called a Structural Integrity field, which makes a phsyical object MUCH more resilient to damage.
Something the Imperium lacks.
Probably because it isn't necessary given the hardness of the materials from which Imperial vessels are made.
Anyway, back to the point in hand. I prefer 40K, as it just feels more realistic than Star Trek does (to a certain extent, anyway; there's still daemons kicking aorund, after all)
In addition, the units, races and vehicles just look, well, cooler. This is of course subjective, but I think I'd rather have a guard regiment as ship's troops than a federation ensign mob any day.
Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...
Karimabuseer - find an example where the GK teleport onto a ship moving by warping space time around it. Then you can use them as your be all and end all. Bearing in mind you can neither see nor sense the ship...
They see Cherubael coming, warp "backwards", shoot. rinse, repeat. Cherubael speed <<<<< FTL.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...
Harder than Adamantium, the hardest known substance? Possibly. Depends on how inventive they were feeling, and how much time they had to come up with it.
And if we're going down the "Imperium can't invent stuff," route, I think you'll find that the Imperium's vessels aren't all ancient designs. The BFG book is full of ships that were "experimental," or a reconfiguration of an older design.
Also, the Federation is a UN-style peacekeeping force to my knowledge, and so would be at a disadvantage when fighting a force dedicated to war and war alone. Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Tau can invent still, and so would have no problem keeping up with the Federation's tech by inventing things to counter it.
the key there is "known", and comparing the two is kinda tricky.
The Imperium *occasionally*, with the tech priests sanctions, come up with something new. The noosphere for example - and Magos are known for customising their own vessels. However a widely known part of 40k is "the older the better" - literally the older ships ARE the best they have, anything more recent is not as good.
The UFP have been at war a number of times (Romulan, Klingon, Dominion, Borg sort of) - they have the ability to mass produce starships (the defiant class for example) when they need to. They are essentially in the same situation as the UK in WWII - loads of planes, nto enough pilots. The human element is the sticking point.
Interestingly the one areas where the imperium definitely WAS ahead was in Thinking Machines. Data is still a pain to replicate yet they managed to get thinking machines into an STC!
I love the trek universe mainly for the hope it brings - it is exactly the opposite of the 40k universe, where there IS no hope - mankind is doomed to a long, slow death. Unless Chaos finally get their act together....
nosferatu1001 wrote:Hardest known substance...to 40k science.
the key there is "known", and comparing the two is kinda tricky.
Hence why I didn't just say "and so Trek couldn't come up with a way to get around that." Don't worry, I'm not planning fanboy-related attacks, just interested in a debate.
Also, interesting "thinking machines," point. Yeah, a lot of Imperial technology has rudimentary sentience, which is a little strange when you come to think of it.
Necroman wrote:
Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?
I think 40K is the more interesting setting once you delve deeper than the whole "universe at war" thing. With the immense variety of planets in the Imperium, there are any number of settings, whether from cyberpunk dystopias, to apocalyptic Mad Max-style settings, to ultra-high tech planets full of politics and intrigue, nearly feudal/medieval settings, et al. Once we move into the Dark Heresy-level of 40K, there is a lot more there than just GRIMDARK and superhuman soldiers fighting unimaginable horrors. Commies in Space are kind of bleh by comparison.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...
The majority of the Imperium is in complete dark of the technology and treat it with reverence (and even then it depends on the individual planet and how widespread technological sophistication is), but the Adepts of Mars are very much aware of this tech's inner workings. And just because the technology is 10,000 years old, doesn't mean it's inferior. We have a number of examples of creations from the Dark Age of Technology that make the borg look like kittens with mittens.
No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.
Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.
Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM
Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.
Terminus - actually even the adepts still treat them as religious icons, without a deep understanding of the "how" - hence why STCs are so prized. They understand ho0w to fix, not create - if what you are saying is true why do they treat the loss of a Titan as an irreplaceable loss of machinery? Your version of the truth would allow them to still create titans - whcih they cannot (especially as the STC for titans went a little...wrong....)
Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.
This inability to create truly new (remember, ALL the is True is already known and has been recorded as holy STCs, that is a core AM belief) technology, merely fix and possibly tinker (but in limited, proscribed ways, with any change requiring *hundreds* of years befroe acceptance) is the hugest weakness: ST ships innovate *all* the time (even if it IS normally the deflector dish that holds the key.... ) and the pace of techniology change has yet to plateau - hell, theyre only a few years away from developing "easy" time travel (Voyager, final episode) if they need to!
So any Dark Age advantage, if used, would be analysed, reverse engieneered, and duplicated or defeated as needed. Precise, FAST communication ensures that for a start. My predictions would be Geller fields neutralised in minutes, probably involving channelling the warp drive throught he deflector dish to create an Imaginarion pulse....
The lower ranks don't, and sure they all follow the proscribed rituals, but in any number of books featuring the higher ranking Adepts, they know far more about their technology than you give them credit. They have plenty of "new" technological wonders to introduce, they just wait a few centuries and discuss things ad nauseaum in committees before they do so, lest they somehow trigger another Dark Age. Everything in the Imperium moves at the pace of decades, if not centuries.
But all this is inconsequential to the topic at hand. Once we dismiss the ludicrous idea that the Imperial ships couldn't even touch the Federation's (which half a dozen people have done conclusively), the war is over. The UFP's idea of a powerful fleet is 40 ships, and losing 39 of them is absolutely crippling. The Imperium wouldn't even notice 40 ships being destroyed. Just by sheer attrition would they win, not to mention having far far far far far far far more powerful weaponry. Hell, they don't even have to hit the Federation ships to kill half the crew onboard. A nova cannon blast passing within a few kilometers would probably create a shockwave that at least shakes up the Federation ship a little, which means the 90%-standing crew gets tossed down the hallway or fried by exploding control boards. The end.
Killkrazy wrote:Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.
That's true....but the Federation hasn't shown it has the ability to scale up to the level necessary to destroy a planet. Just because they can build a 64 megaton anti-matter warhead. The example given is humanity right now. We've begun to develop antimatter technology, and we can create some antimatter. That doesn't mean we can create massive anti matter bombs. And even if they COULD build a planet destroying bomb....would it be a practical military weapon? Once again, we can look at current humanity. We can build 50~100 megaton nukes like Tsar Bomba, but those weapons are NOT practical. It's not just a simple matter of scaling up.
What do you mean by a practical military weapon? Large bombs are not practical as a weapon for us because we can get better results from large numbers of smaller bombs.
The Federation, not constrained by technology or resources, can build as many weapons as it wants. The fact that it doesn't want to at the moment doesn't demonstrate an inability to do so.
For one thing, the latest film shows that Federation mining companies have the capability to destroy a planet with a couple of hours of drilling.
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.
Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM
Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.
Not quite =- they believe that each "true" machine has a portion of the Machine Gods spirit wiuthin it, which embues it with the correct forms. "untrue" machines do not have this, and therefore are to be destroyed.
The reason for the apparent sentience (in a fashion - read the souldrinkers novels for an example of this) is most likely a function of the complexity of the machine and the Ghost in the Machine left behind by all the operators, techmarines, adepts etc who have linked with it. Hence you have the various novels/ comics where the previous Princeps talk tot he current one.
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.
Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM
Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.
Not quite =- they believe that each "true" machine has a portion of the Machine Gods spirit wiuthin it, which embues it with the correct forms. "untrue" machines do not have this, and therefore are to be destroyed.
The reason for the apparent sentience (in a fashion - read the souldrinkers novels for an example of this) is most likely a function of the complexity of the machine and the Ghost in the Machine left behind by all the operators, techmarines, adepts etc who have linked with it. Hence you have the various novels/ comics where the previous Princeps talk tot he current one.
Even so, my point was that it is only sentient machines that are outlawed, so it is perfectly permissible for, as an example, the Land Raider machine-spirit to be an A.I.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt really an "I" then, is it? I always saw AI == sentient - otherwise there isnt intelligence, just knowledge.
It's a tricky issue, to be fair. Sentience can be defined a number of different ways, as I have just discovered via the Oxford English Dictionary. I would say that intelligence and sentience do not have to be one and the same, as in theory the PC/Laptop you are using now has a very basic element of A.I to it when playing any kind of video game, and nobody classes modern computers as sentient.
Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure that last sentence was accurate, so make of it what you will.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...
Please note that those ships, although yes, in some cases 10,000 years old, were built in, at earliest, 30,000 AD. The timeline for Star Trek is the 2300s AD. This HAS to suggest that those ships were built with a crushingly superior theoretical, scientific and industrial base.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Terminus - actually even the adepts still treat them as religious icons, without a deep understanding of the "how" - hence why STCs are so prized. They understand ho0w to fix, not create - if what you are saying is true why do they treat the loss of a Titan as an irreplaceable loss of machinery? Your version of the truth would allow them to still create titans - whcih they cannot (especially as the STC for titans went a little...wrong....)
Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.
Incorrect on both counts.
To quote Lexicanum;
"At full strength, a Legion typically numbers 16 Titans, however this figure varies greatly in practice. Battle losses can take centuries to replace, as the construction of a new Titan is a long and laborious process."
So new Titans can be built, and in fact ARE built. It takes time, because Battle Titans are bleeding huge and use, yes, old technology.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.
"Mars holds the complete data on the Baneblade's construction."
"* Mars - primary pattern
* Lucius - different engine, greater weight, greater superstructure and hull armour"
There are at least two worlds, therefore, which do in fact produce Baneblades. One of them has even modified the STC pattern.
You consistently overstate the Imperium's ignorance. Yes, they revere their technology. Yes, they have slipped back from where they stood thousands of years ago. But just because they revere technology does not mean that the priesthood of Mars does not understand it; that's like claiming that in Europe, during the Dark Ages, Catholic priests didn't understand the Bible!
Another point; you continually bring up your claim that IoM ships don't have FTL sensors. That's flatly untrue. Even assuming that ALL IoM mechanical sensors work at light-speed, you are failing to account for psykers.
Yes, the Federation universe has some psykers, but they aren't developed, understood, and used in the same way or to anything like the same capacity that IoM psykers are. Astropaths can reach across the universe with their minds. The Picard maneuver would be just as impossible against an IoM ship as it would be against a Federation ship, because every single ship carries at least one Astropath, which could see the Federation ship no matter how fast it was moving.
Now, in the initial encounters, the Federation might well score some success with such tactics, just because the IoM wouldn't realize what they were doing. That advantage would disappear as soon as it became apparent that the psykers could still see them.
To add to that, have you considered that the Federation couldn't see IoM ships either, while they were in the Warp? The Federation has no sensor that could track a ship through another dimension, and since they would have no way of knowing what the hell the IoM ships were doing when they entered the Warp, and anyone trying to follow them would be torn apart by Daemons, they would suffer a huge strategic handicap in mobility.
LOL, okay, if nosferatu has anything to say to that, he's just strengthening the obstinate Trekkie nerd stereotype. You'll notice all the other gung-ho UFP proponents have quietly slinked out.
1) You assume the same rate of technological progress, or same basis. Absurdly illogical, and also false - they didnt come up with a more reliable method of travel in at least 10k years, they didnt discover inertialess (or interia supressing) drives and fields, they didnt discover a way to reinforce a way to use an energy field to reinforce their hull - and so on.
The ST world is leagues ahead in technology.
2) Note I said WITHOUT the STC. The lexicanum quote does NOT disprove that - it in fact supports it. Only those worlds with the STC produce it - whod have thunk it! Almost like thats how these things are built...
3) Please, for the love of anything, actually read something other than lexicanum. Knoiwing the HOW is something they DO NOT KNOW for the truly awe inspiring thing s- like titans and 'blades. This is stated, and it is WHY THEY NEED STCs. Why do you think they are so revered? Why is Lands so revered? Without STCs they cannot produce raiders, speeders etc - at least not approaching the sophistication (i will leave aside how unsophisticated either is, compared to a challenger II for example) of the original. Does this not indicate to your 40k-philic brain that perhaps, just perhaps, they truly dont *understand* the how on everything?
3) You have no basis of evidence that supports psykers being a) able to pinpoiint the *exact* position osf a ship[ travelling at sublight or b) one travelling at warp.
So the PM would work, and work repeatedly. You also seem to assume an event taking 0.1 seconds could be transmited by the Astropath to the bridge crew quickly enough for them to change course to avoid the torpedo that is travelling at >light speed towards them.
Imperium ships simply do not operate on that time scale. They are used to waiting *hours* for events to unfold (again, please read some actual background on space battles, and how they are described, before responding with more inaccurate "facts" as that is what they operate on - hell, play BFG and you will get some feel for how slow everythingn is!
4) As I have repeatedly sdtated - so the Geller field, which protects a ship from Daemons, and is an EM field, couldnt be analysed and replicated? You are limited in your understanding of ST tech.
Yes, the first time a ship exits the warp they would be unprepared. However, given that exit from the warp HAS to be many AU from planetary orbit (again, not debateable. Only one place exists where they can exit closer and that is because they use wormholes), that isnt too much of a cnocern - plenty of time for the network of subspace sensors to have mapped the exit, probed the internals (again, fluff shows the exit remains open for a period of time, normally related to the size of vehicle leaving the warp), determined what the fields around the battleship were (as they must remain "on" til the ship has completely cleared the warp) and worked out a way to, most likely, make the deflector dish do the same thing.
Only more reliably, and probably in a slightly prettier way
AM are ignorant of many, many things - because of how they revere them.
They stated, accurately, that it isnt used in the series, using DS9 as an example.
Unfortunately it was a completely, 100% innacruate "proof", as it ignored that DS9 has FTL sensors.
Lack of FTL sensors is the key to the manouver working; the Ferengi ship it was tried on first DID have warp drive, just not the ability to sense faster than light (presumably making FTL travel...interesting), DS9 does. So it wouldnt work against DS9. So it wasnt tried.
Its amazingly simple really....
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?
They stated, accurately, that it isnt used in the series, using DS9 as an example.
Unfortunately it was a completely, 100% innacruate "proof", as it ignored that DS9 has FTL sensors.
Lack of FTL sensors is the key to the manouver working; the Ferengi ship it was tried on first DID have warp drive, just not the ability to sense faster than light (presumably making FTL travel...interesting), DS9 does. So it wouldnt work against DS9. So it wasnt tried.
Its amazingly simple really....
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?
They then pointed out several instances where it would have been viable for a manoeuvre to have worked, but wasn't used.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?
And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.
Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.
The biggest problem the Federation is facing, is that their only dedicated warship class, is about the size of a IoM Bomber (and twice the size of an IoM Fighter).
Even the galaxy and sovereign class starships are smaller than the smallest escort ships the Imperial fleet is using.
Given this size difference (and the difference in fleet sizes), the federation as it is has a significant disadvantage in any confrontation.
The only question is if more reliable interstellar travel and communication, relative shield/armour/weapon strengths, and ability to
adapt to a new enemy (federation starships are equipped with a lot of scientific equipment to study new phenomena) can
tip the scales in favour of the federation.
If federation tech is equivalent or better than Necron tech, UFP might have a small chance (they still have too few ships),
they would most likely need several new classes of starship based around the same principles as the Defiant class
(built for war, not science and exploration) in several size classes, and the time to build a sizeable armada of these new starships.
The Federation mostly uses diplomacy creating neutral zones between them and their neighbours, and the real threats (the borg and dominion)
are too far away (front against dominion is mostly limited to the wormhole, and the borg most likely just don't bother with the federation yet, or
hit a setback at the end of Voyager). They have never really needed the massive warships/armada needed to take on the Imperium.
With the threat of the borg and dominion they started building some warships (Defiant Class/Prometheus prototype), and with the threat
of the IoM, they would most likely first try diplomacy, then panic when they realised what they were dealing with, then scrambling to build
something to deal with this new threat.
One posibility would be that Starfleet would develop the highly advanced cloaking technology in the Star Trek universe, making a
federation starship very similar to necron ships (smaller than imperial ships with stealth technology, greater speed, and particle weapons,
only lacking the regenerative properties). Starfleet would need some time to develop the cloaks, but they should have enough experience
with cloaking devices (and captured at least 2 (one klingon, one romulan) intact cloaking devices) to figure it out.
The only reason they don't use cloaking devices is that they signed a treaty not to, and are too nice to break it.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?
And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.
Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.
I was JUST getting ready to pose "Angry trekkie comes in to restate same tired arguments in 3...2...1.." but the trekkie beat me to the punch
1) You assume the same rate of technological progress, or same basis. Absurdly illogical, and also false - they didnt come up with a more reliable method of travel in at least 10k years, they didnt discover inertialess (or interia supressing) drives and fields, they didnt discover a way to reinforce a way to use an energy field to reinforce their hull - and so on.
I absolutely assume a similar rate of progress/scientific basis for technological progress, because otherwise a conflict cannot be talked about. If we DON'T assume that, then it's entirely likely that neither side will be able to harm or even communicate with each other. For one thing, do we even actually know that Geller fields and void shields are electromagnetic in basis? Maybe they work off of sorcery. If that was the case, Starfleet couldn't replicate either, no matter how hard they tried, until they accepted the reality of magic and the Warp; something utterly counter to their idealistic, humanist philosophy.
nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Note I said WITHOUT the STC. The lexicanum quote does NOT disprove that - it in fact supports it. Only those worlds with the STC produce it - whod have thunk it! Almost like thats how these things are built...
Knoiwing the HOW is something they DO NOT KNOW for the truly awe inspiring thing s- like titans and 'blades. This is stated, and it is WHY THEY NEED STCs. Why do you think they are so revered? Why is Lands so revered? Without STCs they cannot produce raiders, speeders etc - at least not approaching the sophistication (i will leave aside how unsophisticated either is, compared to a challenger II for example) of the original. Does this not indicate to your 40k-philic brain that perhaps, just perhaps, they truly dont *understand* the how on everything?
Granted, with reservations, but irrelevent. There are many things the Admech as a whole does not understand about the technology of the past. The AdMech has a very utilitarian approach; they don't need to understand why a thing works, as long as it does. The STC exists, and so the vehicle or ship can be produced. Minor changes or improvements are made, at a very slow pace, and that suffices.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
4) As I have repeatedly sdtated - so the Geller field, which protects a ship from Daemons, and is an EM field, couldnt be analysed and replicated? You are limited in your understanding of ST tech.
Yes, the first time a ship exits the warp they would be unprepared. However, given that exit from the warp HAS to be many AU from planetary orbit (again, not debateable. Only one place exists where they can exit closer and that is because they use wormholes), that isnt too much of a cnocern - plenty of time for the network of subspace sensors to have mapped the exit, probed the internals (again, fluff shows the exit remains open for a period of time, normally related to the size of vehicle leaving the warp), determined what the fields around the battleship were (as they must remain "on" til the ship has completely cleared the warp) and worked out a way to, most likely, make the deflector dish do the same thing.
Absolutely, the IoM ships have to exit a ways away from a star. And yes, they leave a rift behind them; a rift which will cause daemonic manifestations on any Federation ships which approach it, a rift which leads into a universe of shifting nightmare navigable only with the aid of powerful, specially-trained psykers that the Federation DOESN'T HAVE. In short, a rift that is utterly useless to the Federation. If for some reason an IoM force were ever to retreat, and the Federation tried to pursue them into the Warp, even assuming they could duplicate the Geller field, even assuming they could hold off the daemons, they would still be adrift in the Warp, unable to detect anything, unable to know where they are or even to leave safely. In short, they'd all be dead. That being so, at the very least Warp travel gives the Imperium constant strategic surprise and an unassailable way out of any sticky situations they find themselves in. Militarily, that's an enormous advantage which the Federation would be utterly unable to counter, and which more than compensates for the higher tactical speed and maneuverability of Starfleet vessels.
In addition, what makes you think IoM ships would need to approach closely to Earth? If they wanted to invade, true, they'd need to land ships, but if they simply wanted to destroy it (as well they might), they simply exit the Warp, pinpoint Earth, compute a ballistic trajectory to it's future location given the speed of their projectiles (which is within our current computing capacity, let alone theirs), fire a few broadsides of macro-cannon shells, and enter the Warp again. Good luck to Starfleet in detecting and intercepting thousands upon thousands of small, inert metallic objects before they sweep through Earth's path and pulverize everything in orbit, along with large areas of the Earth's surface. The IoM can do that as many times as they want, and Starfleet can't do jack about it.
Nightsbane wrote:I was JUST getting ready to pose "Angry trekkie comes in to restate same tired arguments in 3...2...1.." but the trekkie beat me to the punch
Ah, but you see, this is the wonderful thing about them, you always get an opportunity to try again.
For example, Berserker just fired a brutal logic broadside. Restatement of tired argument (perhaps "Picard maneuver! Picard maneuver! Picard maneuver!" or another old chestnut) incoming in 3... 2... 1...
Terminus wrote:Cloaking is meaningless when you have psykers at your beck and call.
Not sure how well it would work, but it would be logical that a (perhaps modified)Gellar Field or something like it could
block psykers (since it would logically put an extra boundary between the warp and the vessel inside the field) It's even possible
that the warp field/subspace field generated by federation warp drives could serve this purpose as it is a displacement
in spacetime while the Gellar field is a bubble of real spacetime.
After all, Star Trek is all about finding a technobabble solution to every problem imaginable
I'm not saying the federation as it is (maybe if you take the 29th century federation with their rather sophisticated time travel)
stands a chance, but given some advance warning about the threat the IoM would pose and their capabilities, they
might be able to develop workable technologies to give them a slight chance
(but a lot of time and resources would be needed to build a large enough fleet).
IoM have been facing eldar, orcs, chaos, and more for millennia and thus have a lot of their culture dedicated to warfare,
while UFP have made treaties creating neutral zones (first with the klingons and later with the romulans) and as I noted before
only started building warships after the dominion showed up in one of the later series.
The 2 settings are based on very different principles, IoM is based on survival and dominance at any cost while
Star trek (after Kirk) is based on "If you can't solve it with diplomacy, solve it with science, and don't forget to avoid
influencing other cultures".
In the WH40k novel/codex story, the Imperium would face a "small" humanoid civilisation consisting of several xenos species working together
and sending a crusade to eradicate them. The xenos would poses technologies the IoM were not familiar with incurring mediocre losses to the
fleet, but in the end the imperial fleet would crush the xenos, eradicating them entirely and claiming their worlds for the Emperor.
In the star trek movie/episode, USS <generic starship> would face some aggressive aliens who would not listen to diplomacy, and be badly beaten
forcing a retreat. They would hide in an asteroid belt where they would find some stranded alien craft that turns out to be a necron craft with a pylon
that was being transported to Cadia several millennia ago. Someone will then reverse engineer the technology making a weapon or device that
interferes with (warhammer)warp travel. They will give IoM a chance to return to where they came from, but the Imperial fleet will ignore this and be destroyed by
the weapon/device. Then Deep Space 10 would be built to keep an eye on this new threat.
Well, they'd probably need a few psykers of their own to test the functionality of their Gellar field (not sure if the Gellar field actually blocks psykers, but the Imperium certainly has various dampening devices that may or may not work on similar principles).
But assuming the Star Trek movie/episode, it would likely be a Tau-esque situation. In other words, a small (relatively) Imperial fleet is destroyed, and no further attack is made as it would take decades if not longer for the report of the fleet's destruction to reach the Administratum, for the proper reports to be filed for requisitioning an additional fleet, which then would spend further decades languishing in low-priority status, being downgraded a multitude of times as an Ork Waagh! or Black Crusade or Tyranid Hive fleet demand more immediate attention, until finally something is thrown together centuries later with the records of the original fleet's purpose long lost. Then, if DS10 (or indeed the federation) is still around, the cycle repeats itself never really getting anywhere. How very Star Trek indeed.
Still, when the two possible resolutions are ultimate destruction of the Federation (40k novel) or unending impasse (ST movie), sounds like the Imperium of Man still wins.
What do you mean by a practical military weapon? Large bombs are not practical as a weapon for us because we can get better results from large numbers of smaller bombs.
The Federation, not constrained by technology or resources, can build as many weapons as it wants. The fact that it doesn't want to at the moment doesn't demonstrate an inability to do so.
For one thing, the latest film shows that Federation mining companies have the capability to destroy a planet with a couple of hours of drilling.
The Federation IS limited by resources, technology, and political concerns. They can't simply switch to military mass production from the consumer based economy that they currently have. Not to mention, you have to note that the same physics that applies to conventional explosions on Earth apply to explosions in space as well.
The last film isn't really canon for our discussions, as it take places in a completely alternate universe that the Federation doesn't have access to. Not to mention, the Narada was specially refitted with technology from secret Romulan store houses according to the prequel comics, and the entire supply of red matter was destroyed in the destruction of the Narada, and it's not even a material the average Federation ship carries, so we really can't say that the average Trek mining vessel can destroy a planet.
Nosferatu: You continue to claim that the reason the Picard Maneuver is not used on a regular basis is because the average ship has FTL sensors. However, you have not replied to my point that if the Enterprise, a front line vessel in Starfleet, has FTL sensors, why did Data need to rely on technobabble detection of deep space gases instead of just utilizing the ships FTL sensors? Unless you can adequately explain this, we can not assume that the Enterprise has FTL sensors, and even if they do, they don't have the sensitivity to be useful in a combat situation.
Terminus wrote:Well, they'd probably need a few psykers of their own to test the functionality of their Gellar field (not sure if the Gellar field actually blocks psykers, but the Imperium certainly has various dampening devices that may or may not work on similar principles).
But assuming the Star Trek movie/episode, it would likely be a Tau-esque situation. In other words, a small (relatively) Imperial fleet is destroyed, and no further attack is made as it would take decades if not longer for the report of the fleet's destruction to reach the Administratum, for the proper reports to be filed for requisitioning an additional fleet, which then would spend further decades languishing in low-priority status, being downgraded a multitude of times as an Ork Waagh! or Black Crusade or Tyranid Hive fleet demand more immediate attention, until finally something is thrown together centuries later with the records of the original fleet's purpose long lost. Then, if DS10 (or indeed the federation) is still around, the cycle repeats itself never really getting anywhere. How very Star Trek indeed.
Still, when the two possible resolutions are ultimate destruction of the Federation (40k novel) or unending impasse (ST movie), sounds like the Imperium of Man still wins.
It's the problem with the Star Trek philosophy Being nice doesn't really work when dealing with the IoM. From their response to the borg,
it isn't likely the Federation would take the offensive when faced with a huge threat. They seem happy with an unending stand-off, and would most likely go
for that with the IoM.
As you noted, this behaviour would put them rather low on IoM's priority.
Accersitus wrote:The biggest problem the Federation is facing, is that their only dedicated warship class, is about the size of a IoM Bomber (and twice the size of an IoM Fighter).
Even the galaxy and sovereign class starships are smaller than the smallest escort ships the Imperial fleet is using.
...
...
A WW2 battleship was about 25,000 tons displacement.
A WW2 dive bomber was about 2.5 tons fully loaded weight.
Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...
Do you think that the imperium has just been using the same metals they have found on earth for the past....oh I dont know, ten thousand years or more years? Even after they lost alot of technology (this being they lost the knowledge to remake some weapon or designs, not ALL weapons and ships, tanks, etc designs) ? Things get repaired and built daily im sure.
This is a funny topic for me. The UFP has been around for what....as far as modern human recorded history is concerned, about 10000 years or so. Only been space faring for about 200.
The IoM has been space faring for at the very least 10000 years. That's in space. And before that it says that for even more thousands of years they had ruled much of the universe, before warp storms cut them off from reinforcing against Xenos, etc, leading to a fall of countless years until the emprah finally came along. Do you think for a moment that their technology just stopped progressing as soon as they discovered space travel? Thats what you make it sound like. Here is why i say that.
Think of it this way...you say it's dark age technology correct? compared to the UFP that is. So a space faring, universe ruling civiliaztion of humans who's only real opposistion was themselves after the horus heresy, out of a galaxy of hostile aliens that constantly try to kill them, including the FORMER masters of the galaxy (eldar, who have incredibly more advanced technology, comparable to UFP if not greater, and still can't take the imperium on, which people in this thread ALSO claim the UFP could do) Have no chance in hell against humans that have barely been in space for 200 years? yeah we know that they are like an old cancerous tumor of arrogance and superstition, probably should be put out of its misery, etc, and how UFP is the new and bold flavor of doritos for the year. But think about what i just said. The Eldar, whos size is comparable (or at the very least fire power and technology) to the UFP in alot of ways, even techonology wise, and HAVE discovered warp travel, cloaking devices, etc....even with all these things they cannot and WILL not take on the imperium. They stay in the shadows and avoid their fury. Not because they are better than them...but because the IoM have ALOT more ships to overwhelm them.
Another good example...look at the 40K universe itself for this one. Orks. A race of creatures who's technology is laughable and comparable to modern day in many ways. They can still give any race in the galaxy a run for their money...and why? Because they have SO many bodies. I dont care how cool your gun is, how many planets it blows up, how many gun shots your uber shields can stop before it fails, or dodge...eventually, a bullet in the head does the exact same thing as a phaser. Now I'd like you to compare this theory to the UFP....even if they could destroy and hold off for a long time...do you honestly, in your mind, beleive and think that they could fight off, shrug off, outmaneuver, potentially thousands of ships all firing at once at the same targets, of which there would most likely be around 100-200 ships for the UFP at most? Especially when, as we have said already, that imperial weapons dont make tiny explosions. And that I've said they can track, target and kill ships as long as they are within a thousand km's or so, comparable to the Feds who seem to need to be in about 50 KM range to utilize their advanced weaponry?
Again, im not trying to say that the UFP isn't advanced, be able to put up a fight, doesnt have good tactics etc...but sometimes, you gotta really face the facts.
Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.
This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.
This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.
I like to look at Trekkie fans as quite possibly the ultimate fanboys to go up against. There's no rational discussion with them. there's no acknowledgement from them to you for putting up a good argument, potentially proving them wrong a few times, or vice versa with them proving you wrong a few times.
No, instead they choose the path of eternal fan boy, who would rather die and be trodden on by the feet of the emperors finest, than admit that in anyway possible, that star trek would lose to any other fantasy universe at all.
"Not only would us UFP lovers win, you wouldnt even be able to touch us! We wouldnt lose ONE ship at all! Even if it's five thousand against two hundred!!! We are THAT good. I know, it's almost too much to handle how amazing our peaceful science ships can still take on everyone without dying. Oh. Except for other ships and races in the star trek universe, whos technology and weapons may be inferior to the UFPs....which could be compared with technologies of the IoM....which still manage to destroy our ships in many episodes...."
Gorgarak: I almost swear that the average trek fanboy sees every creative use of Trek technology (that tends to almost destroy the ship most of the time). Creative uses that require the minds of the finest tacticians, engineers, and technology the Federation has to offer to even WORK, and then assumes that EVERY ship in the Federation would be able to utilize that creative use of that technology. But yeah......Trek fanboys are almostelp but cling definitely the worse, and can't help but be utterly ignorant of the SCALE of the Federation versus nearly anything else.
And Kilkrazy: Yes, that's true, but there's a few differences.
1) The dive bomber could only sink a battleship only because it was carrying a single huge projectile compared to itself. If you look at the design of a dive bomber, you'll notice that the bomb is a significant portion of the bombers length. A battleship shell (which often served as the source for some dive bomber bombs ) is almost miniscule compared to the ship as a whole. In fact, the size of a battleship shell compared to the battleship is roughly equivalent to the size of a machine gun round compared to the dive bomber. That machine gun round obviously would do absolutely nothing to the battleship. As far as I can recall, Federation ships do not possess weapons that are a significant size of the whole ship.
2) Just because a dive bomber could sink a battleship, doesn't mean that they could do it with zero losses, and flit around with impunity. In fact, the very nature of their similar design meant that they were very vulnerable to weapons fire, and would almost never suffer zero losses.
Terminus wrote:Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.
This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.
God forbid someone tell them about Necron tech then. Phase jumps, unscannable ships unless firing/moving enough to detect, regenerating hulls and legions of deathless robots that would sooner hack computer systems and Rick roll the entire enemy ship rather than open a hailing frequency.
Yes Star Trek is pretty kick ***, and YES it is the society we can only hope to achieve, a utopia of science, sharing, and exploration where each person spends their life aiding their fellow man and exploring the cosmos. I sure as **** hope that mankind can elevate to such a standard and would love to live in such a universe.
BUT
Such a universe, based on logic, science, and care could not ever, EVER, stand up to the blind destruction of the imperium. You have the embodiement of the dark ages thrust upon the world of ultimate enlightenment. Imagine if it were the inquisition with modern assault rifles vs. hippies. Who do you think would win. The imperium wishes to completely erase that which it finds heretical. There is no mercy or post set as what is going to far. The UFP could not hope to compete with an enemy of such resolve.
The imperium (although totally kick ***!) is meant to show the horror of the dark ages and superstition halting progress.
The UFP is meant to show the ultimate evolution of mankind.
Utopia will most likely always lose to undying determination and hatred, just as it does on a day to day basis in our modern lives. Why do you think those of us that are American are still forced to live in a system where we actually have a for profit health care system?? Hate and profit dominates good will.
Terminus - the quality of your posts continues to impress. Any chance of adding anything usefuL?
BeRzErKeR wrote:I absolutely assume a similar rate of progress/scientific basis for technological progress, because otherwise a conflict cannot be talked about. If we DON'T assume that, then it's entirely likely that neither side will be able to harm or even communicate with each other. For one thing, do we even actually know that Geller fields and void shields are electromagnetic in basis? Maybe they work off of sorcery. If that was the case, Starfleet couldn't replicate either, no matter how hard they tried, until they accepted the reality of magic and the Warp; something utterly counter to their idealistic, humanist philosophy.
Except, as I showed, the technologies *are* different, and the rate of progress is similarly different - there is no intertia compensating system in 40k, no SIF, etc. They just dont exist - and given the rabid degree to which the AM retain knowledge (not understanding) it is unlikely in the extreme that it would be utterly unmentioned in any of the background.
Yes, we know Geller fields are EM based, the generators for them are mentioned repeatedly as being normal machines PLUS they exist preNavigator gene, as they are necessary for even short trips (unless you want your trip to be *really* short. Or long, depending on which god takes a fancy..) - same for Void shields, which definitely exist without a psychic (none on oard titans, and they were not maintained by any psykers on the Gas mining city when the blood pact used them as a trap; again, void shield generators are mentioned)
Additionally - are you sure it is magic, and not just "another dimension" properties, aka power derived from the warp? For example "Q" appears to work by "magic" yet they have found an explanation for it, same as for psychics (gene manipulation, ref Khan) and even Galactic barrier (edge and inner - turns out both a "Q" entities" that have been exiled) entities.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Granted, with reservations, but irrelevent. There are many things the Admech as a whole does not understand about the technology of the past.
Finally you Admit the point! The POINT is that they do not understand the *HOW*, meaning adapting to new enemies is something they frankly cannot do technologically. WHich is why if the Tau get rolling theyre screwed. Or it the NEcrons fully awaken theyre screwed. They are culturally and religiiously incapable of making change - the Imperium is the perfect example of a declining culture in terms of power and understanding. Frankly, everythings held together by spit and prayer.
BeRzErKeR wrote: The AdMech has a very utilitarian approach; they don't need to understand why a thing works, as long as it does. The STC exists, and so the vehicle or ship can be produced. Minor changes or improvements are made, at a very slow pace, and that suffices.
Except when they need to innovate. Which they are strongly prohibited from doing, with any "change" taking centuries.
Hell the Noosphere only got widespread adoption because of the crisis on Mars, otherwise you may not have seen that for anotehr 1k years.
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Absolutely, the IoM ships have to exit a ways away from a star. And yes, they leave a rift behind them; a rift which will cause daemonic manifestations on any Federation ships which approach it
How close is this rifts influence? Remember they have sensors which can pinpoint starships over lightyears of distance. They have probes with small warp drives for extended range.
Again, you have a fundamental gap in understanding of Star Trek technology.
BeRzErKeR wrote:, a rift which leads into a universe of shifting nightmare navigable only with the aid of powerful, specially-trained psykers that the Federation DOESN'T HAVE.
Yet. The Federation knows of at least 3 psychic races (betazoids, Organians, VUlcans, I would include those from the Pilot however they seem happy to stay on their own planet and not be seen elsewhere) plus immense individuals that may be part of other races (the Traveller, Will Crusher at the end) that could be easily powerful enough to detect something as strnog as the AStronomicon. Again, you are too used to thinking in 40k terms, where nothing of substance changes - this is the antithesis of how trek science works. where change is the norm.
BeRzErKeR wrote:In short, a rift that is utterly useless to the Federation. If for some reason an IoM force were ever to retreat, and the Federation tried to pursue them into the Warp, even assuming they could duplicate the Geller field, even assuming they could hold off the daemons, they would still be adrift in the Warp, unable to detect anything, unable to know where they are or even to leave safely. In short, they'd all be dead.
And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.
And replicated.
Because this is a society entirely, 100% diametrically opposed to the way the Imperium works. They understand their technology, they continually research and develop new technology, and the implement it quickly.
BeRzErKeR wrote:That being so, at the very least Warp travel gives the Imperium constant strategic surprise and an unassailable way out of any sticky situations they find themselves in. Militarily, that's an enormous advantage which the Federation would be utterly unable to counter, and which more than compensates for the higher tactical speed and maneuverability of Starfleet vessels.
Again, you make a fundamentally incorrect assumption: that it woudl be always unassailble. The Federation already use other dimensions to sense objects (subspace, phase space, etc), are aware of and know how to travel to entirely different universes (Mirror onwards) and even universes that potentially are supersets of our own (Fluidic space, when you read the other books around the subject) - so saying they would be "utterly unable to counter" is a flawed statement - demonstrably so.
BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, what makes you think IoM ships would need to approach closely to Earth? If they wanted to invade, true, they'd need to land ships, but if they simply wanted to destroy it (as well they might), they simply exit the Warp, pinpoint Earth, compute a ballistic trajectory to it's future location given the speed of their projectiles (which is within our current computing capacity, let alone theirs), fire a few broadsides of macro-cannon shells, and enter the Warp again. Good luck to Starfleet in detecting and intercepting thousands upon thousands of small, inert metallic objects before they sweep through Earth's path and pulverize everything in orbit, along with large areas of the Earth's surface. The IoM can do that as many times as they want, and Starfleet can't do jack about it.
WOw, again a fundamental lack of understanding of sensor technology. Given that we can detect inert objects (small asteroids) NOW, with basic Radar (essentially, some use of LIDAR and optical occlusion) on objects the size of a MC shell, you really think a race that can detect small ships across LIGHT YEARS would struggle?
That is the worst idea yet, completely bafflingly simple to defeat. Orbital defences. Track and kill. Ballistic trajectories are an awful tactic...
And yes, for the 100th time: THEY HAVE FTL SENSORS. Their sensors, and comms, work on subspace, a region where "normal speed" is faster than light. Hence why their communications are lag free (almost, 9.9999 is as high as a boosted signal gets, so at 10k parsecs you have a small delay) and they can work out what is happening in a system 10 light years away *now*, not 10 years ago. Saying otherwise is laughable. Please, stop it - ignore that flaw in your argument if you want, but please stop repeating the error.
Now, to everyone (bar Terminus, there is no hope there) that loves to use the "trekkie nerd" epithet - get over yourselves, as youre all 40k nerds. There is no superiority complex allowed here! I'm both a trek AND 40K fan, and I find the 40k universe MORE engrossing than trek because, well, its more horrifying - Trek end-of-voyager is fairly settled, as they have significantly reduced all the threats and, generally, things are looking up. As opposed to 40k, with the emperor dead, the imperium losing more worlds pemanently to chaos (you cannot recolonise a chaos planet) meaning they are shrinking (some minor wins, but minor losses as well - in the long run the trend is down) or the necrons awakening and going "boo!" while murdering everyone and your sun in the process - this is a more interesting place to be.
However I can at least see and understand (something some people here severely lack) the huge advantage simply *understanding stuff* is as far as ST vs IoM goes - yes, the IoM have huge ships and, like Leafblower (yuck, awful name) if they get a good first strike in that would probably it. HOwever to simply pretend that big == best is just naive, and shows a clear lack of understanding of the differences between the two cultures.
AS I have already said - the Feds would probably try diplomacy, whcih wouldnt work against the space xenophobes and may well doom them. However the Imperium would have to react *very* quickly in order to stop them in one go, before the tech superiority of the federation starts to bring them level again - and that is something that is impossible for the IoM to do. The administratum works in *years*, with it being acknowledged many times that warp travel is slow (months or years to reach destinations, re Brotherhood of the Snake, various guard novels, the Black Ships taking years to travel round their assigned routes, etc) enough that a combined strike isnt possible. Even AStropathic comms take time, as they have to be relayed between minds, after being decoded (not instantaneous), translated from the encoding to something the pskyer can retransmit (again, not instantaneous - each pskyer has a way they transmit that is personal to them) and then broadcast again.
Finally Bezerker - I noticed you failed to concede the point explicitly, but I assume you accept that an event not measured in hours is difficult for a IoM ship to deal with? In otherwords the PM would work in so much as even ASSUMING the psyker can pinpoint a ship travelling at warp (a huge assumption), it could not relay that information to the ship AND have the ship react in any *meaningful* way in time to stop it? Avoiding whether you think the PM would work or not (that is irrelevant) you must still, assuming you have any knowledge of space battles in 40k, that this is a true statement?
Edit: Finally, yes I think the Necrons would scare the poop out of Star Trek, as probably only biogel computers would be "safe" from remote shutdown. This is one area where the backwardness of the imperium, much like in BSG, woudl save them - you cannot hack a servitor remotely. Well, not as easily as a networked, almsot sentient (or actually sentient, Data, M39, various others) computer that seems to be quite trusting.
However hulls that repair themselves arent unknown in Trek - they have adaptive armour at the end of voyager, in order to shake off the Borg. It probably has something to do with the deflector dish though....but still, the Necrons are a far harder threat to the Feds than the IoM, just because everything ST does the Necrons seem to do better - hell, even their redshirts get to die repeatedly, rather than just once!
Edit2: Psychic dampeners. They are definitely not "magic" as so could be researched and replicated, range increased etc. SUddeny "but we have psychics!!!!" becomes a rather poor argument. Take away psychics and the imperium REALLY struggles, as they can only make short warp jumps, massively increasing their travel time.
Terminus wrote:Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.
This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.
God forbid someone tell them about Necron tech then. Phase jumps, unscannable ships unless firing/moving enough to detect, regenerating hulls and legions of deathless robots that would sooner hack computer systems and Rick roll the entire enemy ship rather than open a hailing frequency.
Sounds like the Borg equipped with Romulan cloaking technology.
funny thing is the federation would win against the imperium. simply because eventually the star trek timeline becomes the Andromeda time line.... sneaky federation using elorg ships
I was thinking that - Wraiths seem to use phase shifting tech, which the Federation knows about and can probably create a dampening (much like the tech device used in the souldrinkers 5th novel - a Magos had it) given enough incentive...which scary things coming through the wall would do
Additionally - the ships are only "undetectable" to Imperium sensors, they may be detectable on subspace sensor XYY - but it would be at least an interesting match up.
As it is the Feds vs IoM would be the equivalent of jet fighters (not bombers, or fighter bombers, if you insist on the weapon yield) vs 18/19th century galleons. One side is vastly more manourable, with better abiltiy to "see" you, and with better guided weaponry. The other side has bigger vessels.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?
And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.
Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.
Modquisition on
You're trolling on the thread about people having fun arguing about the number of angels on a pin. Cease a desist or you risk suspension.
This is a warning to all posters from this point forward on this thread. Cease the personal attacks and snide remarks. Argue points and have fun or don't post.
Specialized technology targeting the dangers of IoM's technology would be the only chance The Fedreation has, but that is after all what they do best. Early encounter with the borg: "We can't hurt them, they adapt to our weapons": They build a specialized weapon then borg can't adapt too (Infinity Modulator). Early encounter with the Dominion: "Their weapons ignore our shields": They manage to adapt their shields to repel this new kind of weapon. Species 8472: "Even the borg can't hurt the bioships with their weapons": Voyager designs warheads using modified borg nanoprobes that are effective. IoM: "Captain, a large asteroid field just appeared 4 light years ahead emmiting multiple energy signatures. Oh , it's a fleet of ships and they are powering weapons.": The TV screen goes black and "To be continued" appears.
This is pretty much what the Star Trek narrative is based on (this and how important diplomacy and the (temporal) prime directive is), and why people who have seen a lot of Star Trek feel the strength of the Federation is how they can adapt their technology to deal with pretty much everything even when they are seriously outclassed. The Warhammer 40k universe is more realistic there in their accounts, where whoever has the most powerful ships/best strategy wins, with heavy losses on both sides in most cases, not the one that can adapt a technology to cancel out whatever benefit the other one has.
One other interesting tactic for the federation to use, would be a small cloaked ship (using the cloak from the Reman warbird Scimitar (from Star Trek Nemesis) for example) Crewed by specially trained Vulcans/Betazoid/other psychic race (who are trained to be hard to detect by other psykers), or shielded against psychic detection with technology (some form of dampening field) or both. Then arm the ship with a special weapon designed to overload the Gellar Field device on imperial starships.
The tactic would be to send these small ships to find imperial fleets, and disable their Gellar Fields just as they are moving in to the warp, and watch them being eaten by demons. The federation would most likely not use a tactic like that(but they might think they just disabled their engines or desperate and be ok with it). It would take a lot of time, and isn't really large scale enough to take on the IoM, but it could be effective as one of many specialized weapons to deal with the IoM.
Plus if there suddenly was a 1 in 10 chance (maybe not that good, but several magnitudes higher than normal) that the Gellar field didn't work, the Commissars would have even more work to do than normal.
But as I have noted in earlier posts, they would need some kind of doomsday device or equivalent power to really make up for their vast disadvantage in numbers, and they are generally too nice to make something like that (they prohibit research in cloaking, biogenic weapons, genetic engineering, and Polaric ion energy to name a few). Or they would need the time and resources to build their own huge armada.
While writing this, the best hope I can think of for the federation, is a device that creates a massive warp storm, and just blanket the entire federation with devices like this, preventing the IoM from entering federation space at any useful speed. Since Federation FTL travel is not dependant on the warp, there would be no downside. Edit2: Other than the possibility of a demonic incursion
The entire Imperium of Man vs. United Federation of Planets would most likely boil down to: "Can the UFP design a technology that gives them a chance against the Imperial fleet that is larger in every way before they are wiped out?" There is no way to prove this true of false, but the odds are against the UFP since they start at a disadvantage and have to design/build their advantage. In addition the UFP are weighted down by morals giving them a further disadvantage, as they would most likely reject any development that exterminates the IoM for "humanitarian" reasons.
In an objective confrontation between the two forces, logic dictates that IoM should win by sheer size and power, but there is a chance (not saying that it is a high one, but greater than zero) that UFP could develop something giving them an advantage (after all that is what they do best and this shouldn't be ignored).
Edit: Btw, is it only me, or would people like to see more scifi where different races and factions have different ways of achieving FTL travel? (Go 40k, necrons/nids don't travel through the warp ).
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:funny thing is the federation would win against the imperium. simply because eventually the star trek timeline becomes the Andromeda time line.... sneaky federation using elorg ships
Actually, the Star Trek writers would simply write up an episode in which Picard leaps in and saves the day thanks to his sheer awesomeness.
Truth be told, it's probably pointless comparing the two anyway, as they are so different in writing style and general plot that no matter what each side respectively says, there'll never be a resolution.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and someone back there brought up an interesting point, which I didn't think of. Both the Eldar and Tau have immensely advanced tech compared to the stagnant Imperium, and yet they have not utterly destroyed the Imperium; far from it, the Imperium has won many battles against the fleets of these two races, and indeed has driven the Tau back from the areas of Ultramar and other Eastern Front provinces. They did this through a mix of massive firepower and numbers.
I'm not throwing out Nosferatu's point in any way, just saying that technology doesn't always win battles.
Except that the Eldar are a dying race, they really dont have ANY numbers, and Tau are still fledgling.
Plus both Eldar and Tau have a similar tech base - Lances, Immaterium travel, etc. Compare this to the tech base of the Necron, or the UFP, and you should see the disparity - hence why the Imperium struggles so much with the Necrons; the way they operate is so far outside what they know AND the tech is so advanced it is a double whammy.
Besides, usually what happens in ST is it turns out either Crusher can sort it, Data can sort it, or its the Deflector dish - or all 3.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that the Eldar are a dying race, they really dont have ANY numbers, and Tau are still fledgling.
Plus both Eldar and Tau have a similar tech base - Lances, Immaterium travel, etc. Compare this to the tech base of the Necron, or the UFP, and you should see the disparity - hence why the Imperium struggles so much with the Necrons; the way they operate is so far outside what they know AND the tech is so advanced it is a double whammy.
Besides, usually what happens in ST is it turns out either Crusher can sort it, Data can sort it, or its the Deflector dish - or all 3.
They have enough numbers to rain all kinds of hell on anyone who tries attacking a Craftworld And the Tau are no pushovers when it comes to space combat either, but I see your point, I suppose the Eldar/Tau do have similar doctrines to the Imperium when it comes to battling.
On the subject of the Necrons, it should be noted that the Imperium is in fact developing anti-Cron tactics, and has managed to defeat the 'crons on occasion. My point is that the war between the Imperium and the UFP would not be as one-sided as you say.
Well, now that the mods have come in and started to be heavy handed I think I'm done. Since both supported the thinking that star trek would win I'm not surprised.
You can't reason with a star trek fanboy, and now that we have been muzzled there is no point in continuing on.
However they are still in their infancy, and mainly around battling them on the ground where their mode of fighting still seems similar to the Imperium. In space they cant spot the ships before they arrive, and have huge dificulty with the necron weaponry. The fact they drain suns to refuel doesnt help either!
Nightsbane - fair enough, your "contributions" have been...enlightening.
Yes, we know Geller fields are EM based, the generators for them are mentioned repeatedly as being normal machines PLUS they exist preNavigator gene, as they are necessary for even short trips (unless you want your trip to be *really* short. Or long, depending on which god takes a fancy..) - same for Void shields, which definitely exist without a psychic (none on oard titans, and they were not maintained by any psykers on the Gas mining city when the blood pact used them as a trap; again, void shield generators are mentioned)
Additionally - are you sure it is magic, and not just "another dimension" properties, aka power derived from the warp? For example "Q" appears to work by "magic" yet they have found an explanation for it, same as for psychics (gene manipulation, ref Khan) and even Galactic barrier (edge and inner - turns out both a "Q" entities" that have been exiled) entities.
So we know Geller fields are generated by a machine, and aren't Navigators. That doesn't actually make them EM, necessarily. For all we know, they run off voodoo. In fact, given the whole WH40k setting, it's entirely probable that they run off voodoo!
As for magic vs. Warp properties, certainly, that's what it is. But my point is that Warp properties ARE effectively magic; effects occuring, which have no visible cause in the real universe. Since the ST universe couldn't use the Warp effectively (I'll deal with that later) they could never find out what would be causing it, either, leaving them pretty much helpless to counter anything Warp-related.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
How close is this rifts influence? Remember they have sensors which can pinpoint starships over lightyears of distance. They have probes with small warp drives for extended range.
Again, you have a fundamental gap in understanding of Star Trek technology.
I wasn't suggesting ST ships would have to enter the Warp in order to scan the rift; I was merely stating that they couldn't learn anything of substance except (possibly) how to open a rift without doing so. And learning how to open a rift would just be a bad thing for them.
The area over which a Warp rift has influence is highly variable, depending on the size of the rift, the phase of the moon, and how bored the Chaos gods are at the moment. Not far enough to effect the planet, I would think.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet. The Federation knows of at least 3 psychic races (betazoids, Organians, VUlcans, I would include those from the Pilot however they seem happy to stay on their own planet and not be seen elsewhere) plus immense individuals that may be part of other races (the Traveller, Will Crusher at the end) that could be easily powerful enough to detect something as strnog as the AStronomicon. Again, you are too used to thinking in 40k terms, where nothing of substance changes - this is the antithesis of how trek science works. where change is the norm.
But are they psychic in the same way as the Imperium? And furthermore, have they ever seen the Warp?
You are making a serious of very sketchy claims. First, that the Federation could replicate the ability to open rifts into the Warp. I'll grant that; let's assume that as soon as they see a Warp rift, they analyze it up, down and sideways and figure out how to open their own. "Great!" they say, "Here's a key to the enemy transport system!"
Then they open a Warp rift in a laboratory, to see how it works, and lose a planet (or space station, depending on where the rift was opened) in record time as ravening daemons overrun the scientists. Good job, Starfleet!
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.
Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Again, you make a fundamentally incorrect assumption: that it woudl be always unassailble. The Federation already use other dimensions to sense objects (subspace, phase space, etc), are aware of and know how to travel to entirely different universes (Mirror onwards) and even universes that potentially are supersets of our own (Fluidic space, when you read the other books around the subject) - so saying they would be "utterly unable to counter" is a flawed statement - demonstrably so.
Eventually, after years of intensive research and careful analysis and a generations-long breeding program, the Federation MIGHT be able to challenge the Imperium in Warp travel; assuming they had survived that long. However, they can do all the research they want, but no Navigators means no effective Warp travel. Without Navigators, trying to sail the Warp is basically playing Russian roulette.
nosferatu1001 wrote:WOw, again a fundamental lack of understanding of sensor technology. Given that we can detect inert objects (small asteroids) NOW, with basic Radar (essentially, some use of LIDAR and optical occlusion) on objects the size of a MC shell, you really think a race that can detect small ships across LIGHT YEARS would struggle?
That is the worst idea yet, completely bafflingly simple to defeat. Orbital defences. Track and kill. Ballistic trajectories are an awful tactic...
Yes, I do think they would struggle. Why? Because advanced sensor systems are generally designed to detect emissions. So sure, a ship can be detected light-years away; it's broadcasting all sorts of energy on multiple wavelengths, commonly at very high power.
A ballistic explosive shell, by contrast, is broadcasting nothing. If it's black, it's not even reflecting light.
So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion. Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Finally Bezerker - I noticed you failed to concede the point explicitly, but I assume you accept that an event not measured in hours is difficult for a IoM ship to deal with? In otherwords the PM would work in so much as even ASSUMING the psyker can pinpoint a ship travelling at warp (a huge assumption), it could not relay that information to the ship AND have the ship react in any *meaningful* way in time to stop it? Avoiding whether you think the PM would work or not (that is irrelevant) you must still, assuming you have any knowledge of space battles in 40k, that this is a true statement?
No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.
Since Imperial warships have a relatively low speed when not in the Warp, they commonly have hours or days of time before an engagement, that's true. However, once engaged, guns can cycle, engines can fire and orders can be issued within seconds, not hours.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Edit2: Psychic dampeners. They are definitely not "magic" as so could be researched and replicated, range increased etc. SUddeny "but we have psychics!!!!" becomes a rather poor argument. Take away psychics and the imperium REALLY struggles, as they can only make short warp jumps, massively increasing their travel time.
True. But why would they? How would a Starfleet officer even recognize what is happening as "psychic"? As far as I know the use of psychic powers doesn't generate any characteristic energy signature or anything like that. SO what would even turn the minds of Starfleet towards psychic dampeners?
Star Trek people! Read my argument two pages back, where I clearly show that 40k can win . I won't show it for fear of being marked a spammer, but at least try and counter argue my points. If you don't, it's clear 40k have won this
nosferatu1001 wrote:And yes, for the 100th time: THEY HAVE FTL SENSORS. Their sensors, and comms, work on subspace, a region where "normal speed" is faster than light. Hence why their communications are lag free (almost, 9.9999 is as high as a boosted signal gets, so at 10k parsecs you have a small delay) and they can work out what is happening in a system 10 light years away *now*, not 10 years ago. Saying otherwise is laughable. Please, stop it - ignore that flaw in your argument if you want, but please stop repeating the error.
Nosferatu, you still have ignored my point about the lack of use of these FTL sensors in the Stargazer attack against the Enterprise. I don't have time to reelaborate this point, but you have ignored this point again and again in favor of repeating your claim that FTL sensors exist. You need to respond to this point, or else your claim that FTL sensors exist, and are combat effective, is in serious doubt.
I like this thread. I have watched Star Trek with joy in my child/teen years and I really like most of the series.
I don't really want to join the detail discussion, because there's so few hard data about both universes concerning ship-to-ship combat. I'd say we can agree that IoM weaponry generally produces a larger Badaboom than most (!) Star Trek weaponry, but it is slower and less precise. Determining which shielding will be good against what and what kind of maneuver is fast enough to counter what is a difficult thing to do.
I'd try and make up a comparison. Let's say Star Trek technology is really far more advanced than the IoM technology. Then downscale both technologies to something more of our level for this comparison.
Star Trek could be a squad of high-tech equipped modern soldiers, carrying assault rifles with long range, quite effective ammunition and good sighting optics...some grenades, maybe mines, all kind of little gimmicks.
On the other side: IoM. A few thousand determined soldiers, driven by religious zeal, with no real self-preservation kind of thinking. Each of them carries a HUGE big fething gun, although they can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Additionally, some of them can wield warpcraft...which is, I'd think, a really unclear factor, but it should be mentioned. And remember, these guys are not dumb, they don't necessarily run at the enemy ignoring cover and similar advantages just to get gunned down.
I'd argue that, while the high-tech elite squad will kill dozens and dozens of IoM equivalents, they will, through attrition, eventually make a mistake and lose. Every move they make, every shot they take must be executed perfectly, because if someone gets accidentally hit by a stray round of IoM BFGs he's mincemeat and if they let the lunatics get too close once they'll probably be drowned under the bodies of suicide warriors. Morale might be another thing. Star Trek captains and officers have seen their fair share of troubles, I guess, but I don't think your average captain is prepared to face an onslaught of IoM scale and still is able to give only the perfect order for every situation. I think my basic point is, because the IoM can field huge numbers and has a huge destructive (if unprecise) potential, they need to get lucky only once - while the Star Trek guys need to get lucky all the time and avoid every single mistake to avoid getting butchered by overwhelming numbers, religious zeal and superior firepower.
Postscriptum: A further thing about philosophy and morale. In this conflict, it will probably happen that both sides will get the opportunity of taking hostages of the opposing side.
1. The Federation of Planets is able to capture a few Imperial officers, crewmen, guardsmen, whatever. They worship diplomacy and will probably try to use the hostages to create a cease-fire or to stop the IoM in some kind of way. - Result: Whoever is in charge of the Imperial armada will not think a nanosecond about these hostages. This is the Imperium of Man. The hostages are seen as dead, their deaths will be remembered - all weapons fire. Nothing gained for the Federation of Plantes.
2. The Imperium of Man captures some Starfleet officers or maybe civilians. Cunning IoM generals will use these people as hostages and the humanistic, diplomatic Federation of Planets will try to work out a way to get these hostages back alive. Whatever the deal is: The IoM will not honor it. They regard the FoP as filthy xeno-collaboratists and will use any little advantage they can get and make a trap out of every diplomatic solution worked out. The peace-loving way of the FoP will be their downfall in more than one battle, I think.
Post-postscriptum: I have to stress the point that any kind of ground war is autowon by the Imperium of Man. Numbers, numbers, numbers, morale, morale, morale. Even if Phasers are something like S5 AP4, that doesn't help against whole regiments being thrown at the enemy with the iron will of the commissars behind this.
I can just imagine this...the last surviving, scared-to-death starfleet Ensign left of the whole starfleet outpost is standing, weaponless and shivering, on the edge of the burning central command post, surrounded by guardsmen. The a huge commissar walks up to the dude, who goes "This...this is madness!" The commissar stops for a second, asks "Madness?", turns to the next NCO and back before screaming "THIS...IS...THE MAILED FIST OF THE EMPEROR!" and putting three bolt rounds in quick succession through the chest of the poor Ensing.
I'm not sure about space combat, but you have to agree that ground combat would be a terrible, terrible one-sided thing.
Nosferatu, you still have ignored my point about the lack of use of these FTL sensors in the Stargazer attack against the Enterprise. I don't have time to reelaborate this point, but you have ignored this point again and again in favor of repeating your claim that FTL sensors exist. You need to respond to this point, or else your claim that FTL sensors exist, and are combat effective, is in serious doubt.
Sorry, apparently youy cannot do your own 2 second google?
BeRzErKeR wrote:So we know Geller fields are generated by a machine, and aren't Navigators. That doesn't actually make them EM, necessarily. For all we know, they run off voodoo. In fact, given the whole WH40k setting, it's entirely probable that they run off voodoo!
No, they do not run off voodoo. they are one of the earliest creations. So no, they are normal EM based systems, as NOWHERE in 40k do they mention anything other than "normal" power generation - eveen plasma reactors still generate "electricity"
BeRzErKeR wrote:As for magic vs. Warp properties, certainly, that's what it is. But my point is that Warp properties ARE effectively magic; effects occuring, which have no visible cause in the real universe. Since the ST universe couldn't use the Warp effectively (I'll deal with that later) they could never find out what would be causing it, either, leaving them pretty much helpless to counter anything Warp-related.
Um, Q. Q is, in essence, magic. Doesnt stop them from learning about the Q continuum now, does it?
You are assuming no rational explanation exists - however given that psychic dampeners work on normal EM principles it is *highly highly* unlikely that this property is as magtical as you believe.
BeRzErKeR wrote:I wasn't suggesting ST ships would have to enter the Warp in order to scan the rift; I was merely stating that they couldn't learn anything of substance except (possibly) how to open a rift without doing so. And learning how to open a rift would just be a bad thing for them.
The same methods used to open the rift are those used to close the rifts behind the craft. Same principles. DO you see any value in being able to close rifts as they open? I cant....
BeRzErKeR wrote:The area over which a Warp rift has influence is highly variable, depending on the size of the rift, the phase of the moon, and how bored the Chaos gods are at the moment. Not far enough to effect the planet, I would think.
So FTL sensors on a machine body (no nice unprotected minds to influence) would have afield day. literally
BeRzErKeR wrote:But are they psychic in the same way as the Imperium? And furthermore, have they ever seen the Warp?
Well here you have to assume psychic == psychic, in the same way you have to assume EM = EM, otherwise there is no point of contact. Why would they have seent he warp int eh ST universe? Again, observation would be the key - they would not innately know it, however would deduce it.
BeRzErKeR wrote:You are making a serious of very sketchy claims. First, that the Federation could replicate the ability to open rifts into the Warp. I'll grant that; let's assume that as soon as they see a Warp rift, they analyze it up, down and sideways and figure out how to open their own. "Great!" they say, "Here's a key to the enemy transport system!"
Then they open a Warp rift in a laboratory, to see how it works, and lose a planet (or space station, depending on where the rift was opened) in record time as ravening daemons overrun the scientists. Good job, Starfleet!
Normally these are carried out on space stations. So what if they lose a space station? At least they would learn from it. The IoM would rerun it a couple times, just to be sure!
BeRzErKeR wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.
Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.
I just thought I would leave my quote in there: your "wrong" has NOTHING to do with what I wrote, please Reread. I stated that ENTERING AND LEAVING THE WARP does not require psykers. THIS IS TRUE. Yes, that means you can only make limited use of the warp....and? All they need to do is be able to peer into it to see your "invisible ships". Which they could do. In an automated fashion as they have competent systems...
BeRzErKeR wrote:Eventually, after years of intensive research and careful analysis and a generations-long breeding program, the Federation MIGHT be able to challenge the Imperium in Warp travel; assuming they had survived that long. However, they can do all the research they want, but no Navigators means no effective Warp travel. Without Navigators, trying to sail the Warp is basically playing Russian roulette.
You miss the point *again*t: they do not need to challenge the imperium in warp travel, they have a superior method of travel already.
All they need to do is peer enough into the imaterium to see your "invisible2 ships coming. and close the rifts on them - preferably with the ship coming through.
BeRzErKeR wrote:A ballistic explosive shell, by contrast, is broadcasting nothing. If it's black, it's not even reflecting light.
And? It is a HUGE chunk of nice, highly dense metal. Do you have any idea how reflective these are? We can detect carbon black asteroids (dirty balls) which have very low radar reflection *now* - and you think that a MC shell, which DOES have active components (it has active electronics for the fuse, for a start) couldnt be detected by a race that can detetrmine what the interior of a star is doing. really?
BeRzErKeR wrote:So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion.
So the HUGE BATTLECRUISER dropping out of warp inside the planetary system, waiting while it makes planetary measurements (remember, it has to be exact) including noting any major asteroids (as the tug from them woudl be enough to alter the course of the ballistic missile) which it HAS to do using active sensors (ie HERE I AM!!! LOOK AT ME!!!) wouldnt be noticed?
Seriously, I assume you are now kidding - this isnt exactly well thought out now, is it?
BeRzErKeR wrote: Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.
And as I pointed out you have picked one method (occlusion) and decided that was the only way to detect them. they have sensitive mass sensors to read the local gravitational flux, a *by your own admission* HUGE MC shell really, really wouldnt be an issue.
So, as I said - a n entirely naive suggestion that, if only due to our supposed lack of space borne weaponry, is barely effective now, never mind 400 years time. They have functional and repeatable time travel and interuniverse travel. 40k has biiig ships.
BeRzErKeR wrote:No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.
Yes - however how fast does the ship move out of the way in that time? Again, look at BFG, note the rules on manouvering ships - a 5KM long ship, with no interia supressing mechanisms, does NOT change direction quickly. Not at all.
Which is the point - it has to avoid the incoming, faster than light torpedo (whcih they cannot see) as you cannot shoot something you cannot see - and to change direction in any significant way does *not* happen in 0.1 seconds. Please, PLEASE have a look at BFG to see how complex manouvering is, given how far ahead you have to think. Even eldar ships cannot turn as fast as fed ships are shown to.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Since Imperial warships have a relatively low speed when not in the Warp, they commonly have hours or days of time before an engagement, that's true. However, once engaged, guns can cycle, engines can fire and orders can be issued within seconds, not hours.
Sigh, again you miss the point. I did not say the order could not be issued (although the psyker, even making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that it can see a ship at warp *and* pinpoint its velocity precisely enough, which you still have as a major assumption thatt you neatly gloss over) it would just be the amount of time to react *meaningfullY* would not be enough. the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships.
BeRzErKeR wrote:True. But why would they? How would a Starfleet officer even recognize what is happening as "psychic"? As far as I know the use of psychic powers doesn't generate any characteristic energy signature or anything like that. SO what would even turn the minds of Starfleet towards psychic dampeners?
See above. Psychic power in the 40k universe can be damped by an EM field generator of some kind, therefore CAN be detected by sensitive enough sensors. You assume a level of incuriousity of their surroundings that does not match ST fluff at all - they are the very opposite in fact, curious to the point of lunacy at times.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, they do not run off voodoo. they are one of the earliest creations. So no, they are normal EM based systems, as NOWHERE in 40k do they mention anything other than "normal" power generation - eveen plasma reactors still generate "electricity"
Hardly comprehensive proof.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Um, Q. Q is, in essence, magic. Doesnt stop them from learning about the Q continuum now, does it?
If "been told things by Q" is what you mean by "learned about the Q continuum", then sure. But Daemons aren't about to explain the workings of the Warp to Starfleet.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Well here you have to assume psychic == psychic, in the same way you have to assume EM = EM, otherwise there is no point of contact. Why would they have seent he warp int eh ST universe? Again, observation would be the key - they would not innately know it, however would deduce it.
Why, exactly, would Star Trek psychic be the same thing as 40k psychic? In Star Trek, for one thing, people with psychic abilities aren't usually taken over by horrific beings from another dimension and used as unwilling portals to devour entire worlds. That's fairly indicative of some difference.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.
Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.
I just thought I would leave my quote in there: your "wrong" has NOTHING to do with what I wrote, please Reread. I stated that ENTERING AND LEAVING THE WARP does not require psykers. THIS IS TRUE. Yes, that means you can only make limited use of the warp....and? All they need to do is be able to peer into it to see your "invisible ships". Which they could do. In an automated fashion as they have competent systems...
You're forgetting something. The psyker is the only person who can SEE into the Warp. So no, Starfleet couldn't "peer into it". All they could do would be to open a rift (once again, even assuming they got that far), and stare stupidly into something they can't make heads nor tails of.
nosferatu1001 wrote:You miss the point *again*t: they do not need to challenge the imperium in warp travel, they have a superior method of travel already.
All they need to do is peer enough into the imaterium to see your "invisible2 ships coming. and close the rifts on them - preferably with the ship coming through.
See above; "peering into" the Warp is flatly impossible without a Navigator, and the Federation does not have access to the Navigator gene. As I said, perhaps they could develop it. . . but not without years and years of time, time which they wouldn't really have.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And? It is a HUGE chunk of nice, highly dense metal. Do you have any idea how reflective these are? We can detect carbon black asteroids (dirty balls) which have very low radar reflection *now* - and you think that a MC shell, which DOES have active components (it has active electronics for the fuse, for a start) couldnt be detected by a race that can detetrmine what the interior of a star is doing. really?
We can. . . if we're really, really lucky. Nobody knows how many NEOs (near-Earth objects) exist, because we can never be sure we've found them all. The best guesstimates are currently that we won't find even 90% of them for at least another decade. Why? Because occlusion IS, inf act, the only way to find a small, non-radiating body. It won't show up well on radar, it won't show up well on lidar, it's small (by stellar standards) which means anything you DO try to paint it with will invariably miss unless you know exactly where it is and how fast it's moving, which you CAN'T know until you find it in the first place!
As for "mass sensors", the gravitational effect of an object perhaps 50 meters across is so tiny that I cannot imagine it could be detected at interplanetary distances. Particularly not given that this is taking place in a solar system full of much, much, much bigger objects.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion.
So the HUGE BATTLECRUISER dropping out of warp inside the planetary system, waiting while it makes planetary measurements (remember, it has to be exact) including noting any major asteroids (as the tug from them woudl be enough to alter the course of the ballistic missile) which it HAS to do using active sensors (ie HERE I AM!!! LOOK AT ME!!!) wouldnt be noticed?
Oh, the ship might well be noticed; please do recall that on a planetary scale, even the largest starship is a very, very small object. Still, Starfleet has good sensors, so assuming they were watching for it it would probably be noticed. But what it's doing? Not easy to determine.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote: Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.
And as I pointed out you have picked one method (occlusion) and decided that was the only way to detect them. they have sensitive mass sensors to read the local gravitational flux, a *by your own admission* HUGE MC shell really, really wouldnt be an issue.
So, as I said - a n entirely naive suggestion that, if only due to our supposed lack of space borne weaponry, is barely effective now, never mind 400 years time. They have functional and repeatable time travel and interuniverse travel. 40k has biiig ships.
Lots of false statements here.
1. Occlusion is, in fact, basically the only method. On an interplanetary scale, if something isn't radiating or reflecting light, it might as well not be there. We've found a lot of asteroids only because we were specifically looking for them, and we knew basically where they would be. Without those advantages (a defined target and a search zone), finding an object of this kind is simply a crapshoot. Even WITH those advantages it's a crapshoot, just with slightly better odds.
2. A gravitational sensor would be worth exactly jack squat. A 50m diameter antimatter-armed shell is huge, and would suffice to do serious damage to anything is struck, including Earth itself. But on an interplanetary scale, it's so small that its gravitational effects are entirely negligible.
3. If you're talking about modern-day, an attack of this kind would obliterate half the planet (whichever hemisphere happened to be facing the bombardment) and probably wipe out every satellite in orbit. Against Federation Earth, the damage would be significantly mitigated - after all, the Federation would catch some of them - but would still probably suffice to deal a crippling blow to Starfleet command and control, and well as destroy any ships that happened to be in orbit when the bombardment struck.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.
Yes - however how fast does the ship move out of the way in that time? Again, look at BFG, note the rules on manouvering ships - a 5KM long ship, with no interia supressing mechanisms, does NOT change direction quickly. Not at all.
Which is the point - it has to avoid the incoming, faster than light torpedo (whcih they cannot see) as you cannot shoot something you cannot see - and to change direction in any significant way does *not* happen in 0.1 seconds. Please, PLEASE have a look at BFG to see how complex manouvering is, given how far ahead you have to think. Even eldar ships cannot turn as fast as fed ships are shown to.
Sigh, again you miss the point. I did not say the order could not be issued (although the psyker, even making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that it can see a ship at warp *and* pinpoint its velocity precisely enough, which you still have as a major assumption thatt you neatly gloss over) it would just be the amount of time to react *meaningfullY* would not be enough. the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships.
In Legion the attack is an ambush; in a matter of seconds, the Beta moves into the center of the Imperial fleet and tears it to ribbons. So yes, it moves quite fast. Not as fast as Federation ships, but not exactly lumbering, either.
You say "the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships." And I say, sure, if I have proportional engine power. In space, size DOES NOT MATTER. The ONLY thing that matters is the proportion of thrust to mass. Imperial ships have huge engines; why couldn't they turn rapidly?
Perhaps the disconnect is in our views of BFG. I view a BFG turn as being perhaps 15-30 seconds long. The starships in question are moving hundreds of thousands of kilometers a minute, exchanging volleys of fire at ranges of several planetary diameters, and turning extremely quickly. On a dime? No. But they're not lumbering, either. Because, I repeat, in space size does not matter. The biggest ship in the universe can turn as quickly as the smallest, given a powerful enough engine; and if there's one thing the Imperial Navy has in plenty, it's power.
@ nosferatu1001: Give me a reason to believe that FTL travel is possible for anything INSIDE this dimension, there are several but I won't make it that easy for you, and I'll give you at least three reasons it isn't. I liked ST growing up to, but the more I learned about actual science the more I lost interest in Gene Rodenberry. PM me if you want I'm interested in this on an academic level.
Note the types of scans: subspace is an area where "normal" is defined as being Faster than our light speed. Ref subspace communications.
Secondly "tachyon" - you know, those things that are faster than light?
I was rather rushed this morning Nosferatu, and I'm not perfect at this, so I didn't even think about using google. t to find me a situation where
But, alright. The Federation has FTL sensors....but so what? The episode with the Stargazer CLEARLY shows that the use of FTL sensors is not practical in a ship to ship combat situation. You have yet to provide a counter example to this damning piece of evidence.
Additionally, on the morale issue, we have to note the way Federation views the deaths of its officers and crew, and not to mention the level of training each individual Starfleet officer has. How many times have we seen the head of the ship itself take personal notice of the death of even a small number of crewmen under his or her command? Not to mention the way the Federation's culture is shaped to try and save every life it can. On the other hand, the Imperium will spend life as it needs, and not care about the loss of life.
Not to mention, each and every crewmen seems to have gone to Starfleet Academy. Even NCOs like Chief O'Brien went to the Academy. The sheer amount of resources that the Federation spends on even a basic crewman shows that they'd burn through their existing crew quickly, and would almost have zero hope of replacing their losses in a short amount of time without crewing their vessels with untrained crew members. Given the tempermentality of Trek ships....one would think keeping inexperienced crew on board would result in the ship being destroyed somehow before even making it to battle!
1) Nothing you have stated even *approaches* persuasive, never mind conclusive, proof. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.
Geller fields, et al, all use conventional electricity. Now it is up to you to find something I0M based using nonstandard electricity and maybe, just maybe, cite some actual "evidence" yourself, hmm?
Right, now we have the "conclusive proof" bullcrap out the way, which is a hilariously bad argument to make about two fictional scifi universes meeting and what would happen....
2) VOyager et al told them a lot more about the Q area, plus there were th books afterwards...again, you base your assumptions from incomplete nkowledge.
3) So if you displace IoM universe into ST timeline, someone in the ST lot would be 40K-psychic.
Hence why the two terms are interchangeable - it may not be the same races in both "universes", but that is irrelevant.
And again, you ignore that anti=psyker stuff is created using standard EM based generators. Meaning that the effects must be detectable. If they can be detected they can be analysed, replicated and, because this is ST and it is what they DO improved on. Say, system wide anti=psyker fields. Love to see you navigate at that point!
4) Again, invalid assumptions wreck your argument. It is 40k canon that psykers can be defeated using normal, EM based machines. Guess what the Feds are really, really good at doing?
5) You contradict yourself.
Occlusion is NOT the only way to find a NEO, as you yourself state - and it is only carbonaceous asteroids that show up badly on radar. Oddly enough something made of dense metal alloys would show up brilliantly well. Especially to sensors that can detect dark matter. Average baryonic matter is millions of times more "visible" than dark matter...and anything moving in an earth intercept orbit would trigger alarms - remember, you only have limited orbits which can intercept earth BEFORE all those pertubations rweck your shot.
6) "The ship may be noticed"?
Right, you do know what ACTIVE sensors mean? Radar/Lidar/etc all screaming "LOOK AT ME, IM A BIG ENERGY SOURCE THAT HAS JUST APPEARED IN YOUR SYSTEM! IM OVER HERE!" - the point is they dont NEED to be "looking" for your ship, as your ship does the equivalent of walking up to your front door and leaning on the door bell while blowing an air horn.
Quiet it aint.
7) You assume a graviational sensor is worth squat - which is a false assumption. A sensitive enough sensor with enough range WOULD notice a nice, dense lump of metal moving through space. Its path is noted, fractions of a nanosecond later the intersect path is noted and an alarm raised, and automated defenses kill it.
And remember - tehy WOULD know something is going on, because a) they can see the ship that is laying them and b) they can see the ship that is laying them. Meaning the origin points are well known, the ship wouldnt get time to lay many before FTL ships say hello, and the orbits of each ballistic object would be known from the trajectory they were given at launch.
So you have two major flaws in your naive "tactic" - 1) the ship WILL be noticed, see above and 2) the trajectory of each will be noted as they can see the ship launching the projectiles.
Never mind that they DO have sensitive enough sensors to find them EVEN IF they didnt have the advantage (which they would have) of seeing the ship launching them.
Ready to concede your error on this "tactic" and move on? Or will you dismis it as "well, the ship MAY be seen..."
8) The Beta was moving wsith higher relative velocity. Higher relative velocity does not imply more manoueverable.
Additionally you lack understanding of intertia and its effects. Size DOES matter as momentum is geometric....and you certainly CANNOT alter your "relative" position by sufficient amounts to miss an "FTL" projectile which has more advanced guidance in its warhead than your entire ship has.
And you STILL ASSUME that your psykers could see the ship in both positions, one while a ship is in FTL, AND determine the positions accurately enough AND relay an order quickly enough AND have a ship that can magically ignore interia to quickly shift its relative position by sufficjent that a highly intelligent FTL warhead would miss striking the 5KM long ship.
Phew, and you say my assumptions are invalid? Please provide some evidence that pskyers can detect a ship travelling at ST:Warp accurately enough to give a meaningful order - given the known imprecision of 40k psychic powers. [I assume you know how imprecise even a simple Astropathic message is, yes? Never mind something as complicated as 4D positioning of an FTL object]
ChrisWWII - no, it shows that IN THIS INSTANCE it was not practical. However that is utterly, 100% irrelevant: the ship with FTL sensors AND FTL drive is the one attacking the 40k ship.
It is the 40K ship that needs to be able to see the ST ship, not the other way around.
Show how a ship without FTL sensors would "see" a ship travelling FTL firing a projectile that is also travelling FTL, and react quickly enough.
In fact your evidence that *even* a ship WITH FTL sensors would struggle against this type of attack is damning on the 40k side, no?
[The reason they struggled in ST? Apart from the obvious narrative plot lines? Who knows. It reeks of narrative plot though - and NOT conclusive proof either way. Especially it being season 1 and all which is hardly ever considered a reliable "canon" source in any show, as they like to change their mind too often]
Yes, there is a crew issue - hwoever you are still assuming there would be massive casualties that would need replacing, when you have yet to explain HOW the 40k ships would a) see and b) hit a target moving at FTL speeds...explain HOW you get casualties (apart from the usual "transporter system blows up because having transporters would be inconvenient right now" that the writers of ST use, the lazy gits!*) then we can move onto HOW the feds would respond.
Given they do have some form of forced learning systems (picards lifetime in another body, reg barclays fun and games with the holodeck, etc) it is possible they would use them - or just find a way to make the Deflector Dish do all the work.
*seriously, the perceived fragility of ST ships seems to be more likely narrative convenience - the likelhood of the transporters being down JUST when they would instantly, qickoly and without tension resolve the situation seems to approach 100%
Wait, what is this EM anti psyker tech of wich you speak? The Geller fields? Thats proposterous! if they were anti-psycic feilds, navigators and astropaths aboard ships would be useless, and my guard would have one bolted to a tank.
sniperjolly - Black Ships have them, as does Eisenhorn and sort of Ciaphus (his sidekick is a null and has a machine whcih damps this effect out).
Null rods do the same, if you have a WH/DH codex handy (certainly in WH, I would imagine!)
Both are based on standard power generation (as no nonstandard power generation is ever mentioned, its all quite dull - plasma reactors seem to be some form of fusion, other than that its all fairly "normal" sounding)
They are certainly not common, and occasionally they fail (Black Ships which lose containment) suggesting either an upper limit on their ability to dampen in toto, or jsut that machine ran out of power to damp the psyker where a more powerful machine / power supply would have done the job.
Geller fields are what protect starships from the warp, and are again standard machines - they cannot be "psychic" based as a) that would be a bad thing in the warp and b) exist in non-psychic societies (Tau) and pre-Navigator gene (Human empire pre Dark Age of tech) and again there is no evidence that these have a weird power source that is unfathomable in this universe.
The point is that, given the many possible ways the Feds would become aware of either / both devices, and their functions, and the Feds ability to take onedevice, reverse engineer and improve on it, having the Warp as your big "I retreat here" button may not work for very long - never mind that the tech to open / close rifts to the Immaterium is also based on this-universe technology so could also be stolen by the Feds and used against IoM.
It would be interesting to see if they could either prevent warp rifts from opening (entirely possible, happened ina recent BL novel with a chaos fleet, think it was the curretn Word Bearers novel) or, more destructively, closing the rift while the IoM ship is still exiting. I dont know of any fluff wher this has happened, however I cant imagine the ship survived. Morally a *tad* dubious, but they have tainted their ethics previously to defeat big bads.
Power levels aside for a minute... The difference between the UFP and the Imperium boils down to the fact that the UFP relies on education, and the Imperium relies on indoctrination. As a result, when confronted with a problem which requires solving, the UFP will attempt to come to a solution by pooling expertise and applying their knowledge. Once solved, this information would be shared across the UFP. Technological innovations can be easily applied using the UFP's molecular replication technology. Granted, the UFP's range of possible actions is limited by its code of ethics, and many problems can not be solved the UFP's current level of technological capability - however, they will try, and learn from the effort. The Imperium, on the other hand, would consult doctrine. Should doctrine fail to provide a prescribed solution - the Imperium invariably resolves the situation by successive applications in force. Deviations from doctrine usually result in execution. As a result, any unsuccessful innovations do not provide any learning opportunities, other than an object lesson that innovations are not tolerated. Technological knowledge is jealously guarded and not shared.
Based on the above observations - I am forced to conclude that while the Imperium could bring enough force to completely annihilate the UFP in one stroke - should they fail to do this, they will have lost their biggest advantage, as the remnants of the UFP are able to learn from each defeat and may formulate a successful counter strategy. The Imperium on the other hand, should they fail in the intial engagement (definitely possible if their strength at first contact is small), will have ceeded vital inteligence on their technology to the UFP, leaving only the option of attacking in greater force against a numerically inferior, but prepared enemy.
keezus wrote:Power levels aside for a minute... The difference between the UFP and the Imperium boils down to the fact that the UFP relies on education, and the Imperium relies on indoctrination. As a result, when confronted with a problem which requires solving, the UFP will attempt to come to a solution by pooling expertise and applying their knowledge. Once solved, this information would be shared across the UFP. Technological innovations can be easily applied using the UFP's molecular replication technology. Granted, the UFP's range of possible actions is limited by its code of ethics, and many problems can not be solved the UFP's current level of technological capability - however, they will try, and learn from the effort. The Imperium, on the other hand, would consult doctrine. Should doctrine fail to provide a prescribed solution - the Imperium invariably resolves the situation by successive applications in force. Deviations from doctrine usually result in execution. As a result, any unsuccessful innovations do not provide any learning opportunities, other than an object lesson that innovations are not tolerated. Technological knowledge is jealously guarded and not shared.
Based on the above observations - I am forced to conclude that while the Imperium could bring enough force to completely annihilate the UFP in one stroke - should they fail to do this, they will have lost their biggest advantage, as the remnants of the UFP are able to learn from each defeat and may formulate a successful counter strategy. The Imperium on the other hand, should they fail in the intial engagement (definitely possible if their strength at first contact is small), will have ceeded vital inteligence on their technology to the UFP, leaving only the option of attacking in greater force against a numerically inferior, but prepared enemy.
Indoctrination is no substitute for education.
A fair conclusion if you ask me.
Just a slight note, the Imperium doesn't rely completely on doctrine. New stuff like the Tyranids and Necrons have forced them to innovate their tactics to each enemy. The problem of course, as ever, lies with the Imperium's relative reluctance to do so unless the threat is considered great enough for it to be necessary. That's their biggest problem in such a hypothetical war, besides the cumbersome nature of their fighting machines.
The UFP, on the other hand, have their own drawbacks, such as numerical inferiority (although as pointed out most ably by Nosferatu, they have ways to lessen the impact of such a disadvantage) and most critically the reluctance to take casualties. This, I think would cost them most, as history has proven that such a reluctance can cost armies wars. If they could overcome this, then I think the war itself would be even, as the huge mass of the Imperial war machine meets the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the UFP. I think there is no point in discussing the results of a ground battle, as I don't think the Federation has a standing planetary military force. I could be wrong though.
Couldn't help using the term "Imperial War Machine," it just sounds so damn cool.
In addition, I think there is no point in discussing the results of a ground battle, as I don't think the Federation has a standing planetary military force, as that is not what they are about. I could be wrong though.
What do you think, Nosferatu? You're the trekkie expert here.
Gorskar: That's true. The Federation has no standing ground army other than whatever away teams orbiting vessels may deploy. If the Imperium gets a significant foothold on any UFP planet....you can be sure that planet will fall.
Nosferatu: =facepalm= ok....you can not say that because there is a narrative drama function involved that Federation vessels are magically much more powerful than they appear on screen, or their technology will suddenly preform much more reliably. if the teleporters have a failure rate of x% in the narrative, they have a failure rate of x% for the purposes of our discussion. if the ship's hull can take y amount of damage in the story line, then the ship can take y amount of damage in this discussion. If you have a problem with the amount of power a Federation ship has in the story line, too bad. It has that amount of power in this discussion, and it will not gain more because 'the story makes it weaker for drama.'
Additionally, your canon argument? =facepalm= If it happened on TV it's canon! That is Paramount's canon policy and that is this discussion's canon policy! You can't say, "Oh. It happened in Season 1 so it doesn't count." It happened on TV, and it is a true judgement of the combat ability of Federation FTL sensors. It clearly shows that Federation FTL sensors are ineffective even against an obsolete vessel compared to the Enterprise. If the Federation's FTL sensors don't even work against an obsolete one of their ships, I believe we can declare them combat ineffective.
ChrisWWII wrote:Gorskar: That's true. The Federation has no standing ground army other than whatever away teams orbiting vessels may deploy. If the Imperium gets a significant foothold on any UFP planet....you can be sure that planet will fall.
Nosferatu: =facepalm= ok....you can not say that because there is a narrative drama function involved that Federation vessels are magically much more powerful than they appear on screen, or their technology will suddenly preform much more reliably. if the teleporters have a failure rate of x% in the narrative, they have a failure rate of x% for the purposes of our discussion. if the ship's hull can take y amount of damage in the story line, then the ship can take y amount of damage in this discussion. If you have a problem with the amount of power a Federation ship has in the story line, too bad. It has that amount of power in this discussion, and it will not gain more because 'the story makes it weaker for drama.'
Additionally, your canon argument? =facepalm= If it happened on TV it's canon! That is Paramount's canon policy and that is this discussion's canon policy! You can't say, "Oh. It happened in Season 1 so it doesn't count." It happened on TV, and it is a true judgement of the combat ability of Federation FTL sensors. It clearly shows that Federation FTL sensors are ineffective even against an obsolete vessel compared to the Enterprise. If the Federation's FTL sensors don't even work against an obsolete one of their ships, I believe we can declare them combat ineffective.
however as the seasons of star trek next gen went on so too did the time line and improvements could have been made to those sensors
ChrisWWII - so when later series contradict "canon", what do you do? Go "lalala"?
You also entirely, 101%, missed the point - THE IMPERIUM ARE THE ONES BEING HIT BY THE PM.
OK?
Understand?
So the relative abiltiy of Trek ships to spot OTHER trek ships moving at FTL is entirely *irrelevant* to the discussion. Because it is NOT a trek ship but an IoM ship that is trying to detect the Trek ship! I will say that again: you have "proven" that the PM is effective even with FTL sensors - so IoM ships without FTL sensors are even more vulnerable, surely?
And the IoM has NO FTL sensor capable of detecting a ship moving in Warp, and even *if* you can decide that a psyker can detect the ship (arbitrary as that is, you have no evidence or rationale to determine that) the IoM ships cannot change their relative positions quickly enough (fractions of a second) to avoid an inteliigently guided missile moving at speeds much greater than c. They dont have the technology.
In addition - first season enterprise D? I raise you Enterprise E. Plus the D went through a sensor refit mid series run - and as nothing tried the PM again you have nothing to say if this helps or not. In otherwords, even if it WERE relevant to the discussion you "evidence" is sorely lacking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The feds definitely dont maintain a standing ground force - UFP worlds dont really have a military, just Starfleet. So yes, any successful ground incursion would be game over.
However, as stated: the "sit at the edge of space and fire ballistic warheads" tactic is frankly awful, the ships would need to get closer - from days/weeks out (depending on the warp routes) giving the feds PLENTY of time to uttterly wreck the ships.
have always wondered why the Picard maneuver is at all effective since it can be defeated with a simple logic exercise.
The point of the maneuver is to warp to point blank range and open fire and somehow confuse your enemy with your ship seeming to be in two places at once but these two places will be one at a distance and one point blank, hummm.. perhaps just maybe I should shoot at that one that's at point blank range and just so happens to be in the exact trajectory from which the ship could have moved to by use of warp drive.
Or hell with sufficient firepower I could just fire at both and it dies whichever one it is.
Confessor - there is no requirement to be "point blank", just launch frmo a position the enemy doesnt know you are in.
When it was first actually used the Ferengi ship had no subspace sensors, so as far as it was concerned the federation vessel was at point "X", far enough away that light would take a few seconds to give there. So their defences were focussed where the attack could come from - all power to front shields, for example.
If you can jump to warp and quickly enough move to a new position, then fire, the light-speed reliant ship will not be aware you have moved - or at least it will look like you are still in the other place, if you move quickly enough, and so you are "in" two places at "once".
From the new position you can then strike without the full defences being arrayed against you.
With IoM ships this is even easier, as they have no way to move quickly - no intertial suppression meaning that changing relative position quickly just isnt happening. And as mentioned you can make it even more effective by launching torps while at warp, so you never even appear to the IoM ships - the first they know they are under attack is when your carefully timed warheads hit the engine plasma reactors / storage vessels / Novacannon warhead storage and rip your ship into atoms.
The technological difference is overwhelmingly in favuor of the feds - and if they get their nanite buddies involved (or jsut general grey goo, no need for it to be self aware) they dont even need to use explosives - just eat the ships as they make their approach. Again, target something critical and highly likely to blow up.
ChrisWWII - one final fallacy you commit. You cannot asign a %age reliability figure as you base it on incomplete data. At best you know that X occurences of Y failure occurred, but as no series ever tells a complete timeline, including the boring bits, you have no concept of the *overall* reliability of key systems. The best you know is the efficiency of the engines / sensors / plasma relays in the willy waving contest LaForge was having with another engineer one episode. Unless you have some stats on reliabilty you want to share?
Nosferatu & Tyrae: In all honesty, Occam's Razor. You have made the claim that the Enterprise underwent a refit of some kind, or that Federation technology has advanced enough to make FTL sensors effective in combat, well...please show me the episode or manual where it demonstrates this, as at the last demonstration of Federation FTL sensor technology, it was completely combat ineffective.
And Nosferatu, if later canon comes along and displaces earlier canon then fine. The newest canon is the new truth, and we ignore the old canon and take up the new one. However, on the issue of Federation FTL technology, there has been no canon to demonstrate that their FTL sensors have advanced beyond what we saw in the Stargazer episode, and we must therefore use that baseline. The second we hear Data, Janeway or someone mention the Picard Maneuver being thwarted by FTL sensors, then sure we can assume that Federation FTL sensor tech is now combat effective, but until that happens....we can't.
Not to mention, the primary reason for the PM's success is that the ship using the PM is free to fire all its weapons on the enemy ship in one salvo without being destroyed. Against the standard battles Starfleet seems to fight, which is two ships going nose to nose? That would be VERY effective. However......even assuming the ENTIRITY of Federation Starfleet gathers together, and uses the maneuver on an Imperial Fleet, and each Federation ship utterly destroys its target, what happens? The Federation ships have to reload their torpedoes, recharge their phasers.....and the dozens of surviving Imperial ships obliterate the Federation fleet with point blank lance and weapon batteries fire. Sure, the PM could be used to win minor skirmishes (like the 'Battle' of Maxia where it was invented) but it's use in a major, decisive battle would be inconsequential. That's why we don't see it used in large scale Federation battles, as regardless of whether or not either side has FTL sensors, the PM is obviously suicide when used in a pitched battle instead of a small skirmish.
Another point that I have yet to bring up is the point of fighters and bombers. The Imperium uses them, and the Federation does not. Even if the Feds pound the ships of the Imperial battle line to dust, the bombers and fighters will tear the Federation Fleet to shreds. Why? Because we saw at the Battle of DS9 (the one where the Federation fleet is trying to stop the Dominion from opening the wormhole, as there are as many battles of DS9 as there are Imperial Guardsman ), fighters are able to avoid capital ship level weapons, and even in a one on one confrontation such as the Defiant vs. the Lakota....we saw how much difficulty the Lakota had in striking the Defiant, a target about the same size as an Imperial bomber. While they WOULD suffer losses (perhaps 100% if they lose their base ships)....Imperial bombers would be able to destroy Federation ships and kill large numbers of Starfleet crewmen (escape pods = easy target practice for Imperial gunners. ). Without the industrial capacity to rebuild their lost ships, and without the proper volume of warm bodies to replace the losses....Starfleet would slowly but surely crumble.
Of course, you can't forget that if Federation captains are busy plotting courses and weapons fire to kill Imperial fighters and bombers they won't be trying to PM the Imperial cap ships, and if they ignore the fighters and bombers.......well, the point is they're screwed either way. Besides....the Imperium would only need to take one species homeworld, land troops on it, purge it, and I'm betting the Federation would sue for peace.
Edit:
Nosferatu: =sigh= that was WHY i used x% in the first place!!! I have no idea what the actual percentage is, and I can't just make one up, so I put a variable there. Neither of us knows anything about this failure rate except its existence. I wasn't trying to say 'A transporter will fail 28% of the time'. I was trying to point out that transporters DO fail canonically and will not magically work perfectly when the Imperium comes knocking.
Additionally....you do know that it is physically impossible to go into space and manuver without some form of intertial compensator? We know Imperial fighters can manuver like hell, and that cap ships can move at more than a slow drift, so there has to be SOMETHING there countering the Gs. Besides. We know the Imperium has artificial gravity tech. It'd be simple to use that tech to create some form of intertial compensator.
ChrisWWII wrote:We know the Imperium has artificial gravity tech. It'd be simple to use that tech to create some form of intertial compensator.
I assume by that you mean that they already have a STC that peforms that function, as you know what the ol' Mechanicum is like when it comes to inventing.
Also, Nosferatu, although you've made some excellent points, I feel duty-bound to point out that it is highly unlikely that a single photon torpedo would be able to destroy an entire Imperial Battleship. The sheer size of the vessel combined with the hardness of the alloys used to construct them makes that fairly unlikely, especially as we have seen in episodes that photon torpedos do not destroy Trek vessels in one hit (usually) and therefore it would be logical to assume that it would not destroy the Imperial vessel.
In addition, you haven't addressed the mentality of the Federation, that is to say, their humanitarian approach to things and the fact that casualties are a big issue for them, which would be a huge disadvantage when fighting the Imperium due to the Imperium's own "casualties mean nothing" approach to war. I'm sure you have a counter-argument for this, I would just like to hear it.
If you have addressed this issue, then my sincerest apologies.
this is why i support both sides as both sides have advantages. The imperium has numbers and they don't care how many they lose as long as they win. the federation has technology and the means to reproduce captured tech. if you discount the imperiums vast numbers and their methodology towards war the federation does have the advantage both due to their tech and their literal infinite resources because of replicators. in reality wouldn't it be easier for them to make a giant replicator to mass produce ships?
ChrisWWII: Sorry, you still miss the point. Still, despite it being explained very simply.
The ship with the ability to target the non-FTL ship is the Trek ship. There is, at no point, any need to consider FTL Sensor vs FTL sensor - because IoM does not HAVE FTL sensors, and it is the UFP that is using the PM against the IoM, not the other way around.
Your entire line of argument is moot as you are arguing about ships *with* FTL sensors being the target being able to defeat the PM - cant you see that you are arguing the wrnog way around? That in fact you have simply proven the efficacy of the PM againt a ship with no FTL sensors, as even WITH FTL sensors it is "unbeatable"?
IoM: No FTL sensors. No Interial compensation.
ST: FTL sensors. Warp Drive. Inertial Compensation.
ST ships conducts PM. IoM ship cannot see them. IoM shp explodes. Replace "IoM" with "ferengi" and you have the battle of Maxia...
The relative accuracties of FTL sensors is moot, as you KNOW that the PM works in the ST universe, all you are doing is swapping [Ferengi ship without FTL sensors] for [IoM ship without FTL sensors] - the scenario is not any different between the two. Except the IoM ship is easier to hit, of course.
Sensors: Yes, Yes there has. Voyager, for a start, where they work out how to detect non-baryonic matter.
Being destroyed by the fleet: how is the rest of the fleet seeing the ships moving at warp 5? [a nice easy cruising speed] You have yet to address how this happens, at all.
Interial compensation: sorry, please show any canon for ANY form of inertial compensation being used. You claim it is "impossible" (100% provabbly wrong, btw) for them not to have it - but you have not offered any facts. Please do so. Artifical gravity does NOT imply inertia negation, either - and certainly not trivially. Hers some more straws for you.
You also dont seem to get "relative" speeds and agility - a fighter is *relatively* more agile than a batteleship - but then it would be, as inertia increases with the square of the mass (iirc, it shouldnt be cubed anway) meaning the smaller ship has to overcome much less interia, proportionally, than the large ship. It can also reach higher speeds (less mass to accelerate) and so again is a harder target.
The battleships arent moving at a "crawl" (well, compared to c they are, and compared to 1/2c full impulse they are) it is just that relatively they are moving quite slowly - hence days to get to a planetary orbit from a warp jump.
Finally Chris - just noticed you have yet to come up with any more ways to try to make the "ballistic projectile" idea work? Do you now accept that the imperium couldnt "stealth" launch a load of projectiles? At least not with any canon imperium tech of course...
Gorskar - Structural Integrity FIelds. They reinforce the bonds between matter (increasing the electroweak if memory serves) making the matter much, much harder. That is why one torp doesnt make a ship explode.
IoM does NOT have ANY such system, thus a class 6 warhead dialed up to full city busting 200+isotons WOULD do a lot of damage - and if you breach enough plasma reactors the ship is a) dead in the water, no ability to manouver left and b) is likely to explode - there are many instances of this occuring.
[If they get zero point energy warheads (quantum torpedoes) worknig at higher yields you could theroretically one shot the ship...and they would certainly have incentive to do so, if you still disbelieve that "city size" (so, at least 5km) isnt enough]
I HAVE addressed the mentality of the federation, a number of times. I said they would, assuming they make contact first (and with superior sensors this is likely), try the diplomatic route to start- whcih wouldnt work as they would not convert to the imperium. This may, if the Administratum worked quickly enough, be a death sentence for them.
However as has been shown with the reaction to the Tau this is *not* the case - the response time is measured in YEARS, more than enough time to switch to a war footing [see DS9], analyse the first encounter (win or loss they will get SOME info frmo it) and determine weak points. Which they will exploit - that IS canon.
Whether they can bring themselves to perform the wholesale fleet slaughters they would need to do, while converting planets (seriously, give a hive world clean energy and the ability to create, from tht energy, any matter you want and watch them convert over in two seconds flat) is debateable - I reckon Janeway may be hard nosed enough to do it, Picard maybe, and if they ever let 7 get command youc an almost be DAMN sure she would be - well thats the rub. I couldnt predict that, as it is too uncertain.
One thing ISNT uncertain: the ability to fire while at warp is a HUGE advantage that the IoM has no known counter for: psykers MAY be able to locate ships, but likely all they could do is tell you an attack is coming - if you cannot neutralise the incoming torpedoes you wouldnt be any better off, just slightly faster at damage control (if that did you any good)
nosferatu1001 wrote:ChrisWWII - so when later series contradict "canon", what do you do? Go "lalala"?
You also entirely, 101%, missed the point - THE IMPERIUM ARE THE ONES BEING HIT BY THE PM.
OK?
Understand?
So the relative abiltiy of Trek ships to spot OTHER trek ships moving at FTL is entirely *irrelevant* to the discussion. Because it is NOT a trek ship but an IoM ship that is trying to detect the Trek ship! I will say that again: you have "proven" that the PM is effective even with FTL sensors - so IoM ships without FTL sensors are even more vulnerable, surely?
And the IoM has NO FTL sensor capable of detecting a ship moving in Warp, and even *if* you can decide that a psyker can detect the ship (arbitrary as that is, you have no evidence or rationale to determine that) the IoM ships cannot change their relative positions quickly enough (fractions of a second) to avoid an inteliigently guided missile moving at speeds much greater than c. They dont have the technology.
In addition - first season enterprise D? I raise you Enterprise E. Plus the D went through a sensor refit mid series run - and as nothing tried the PM again you have nothing to say if this helps or not. In otherwords, even if it WERE relevant to the discussion you "evidence" is sorely lacking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The feds definitely dont maintain a standing ground force - UFP worlds dont really have a military, just Starfleet. So yes, any successful ground incursion would be game over.
However, as stated: the "sit at the edge of space and fire ballistic warheads" tactic is frankly awful, the ships would need to get closer - from days/weeks out (depending on the warp routes) giving the feds PLENTY of time to uttterly wreck the ships.
Modquisition on. Lets continue to play nice and calm it down. Also, all caps means SHOUTING. Lets not SHOUT.
Its somewhat unfortunate that everyone is so hung up on the Picard maneuver and the relative weapon yields of the UFP / IoM ships. In my opinion, a UFP / IoM conflict would never involve a straight up fight. As the majority of UFP vessels are science and survey vessels, the UFP would definitely be unsucessful from the get-go. However, as these same undergunned vessels are designed to record stellar phenomena, they are uniquely equipped to record information about the IoM ships at range, and can definitely muster the speed to escape the IoM ships once initial long range scans determined that the are severly outgunned. First contact would probably consist of the UFP hailing the IoM at range, receiving demands to surrender, the UFP scanning the aggressors, and then, if still alive, engaging in a hasty retreat.
Thinking outside the box of traditional firepower considerations: IoM's warp travel is essentially a dimensional swap, where the ship exits real space, enters "warp space", travels a distance and exits again into another place in real space. Ignoring the inherent randomness of "warp space" for a minute here - the act of entering and exiting warp space should result in recordable phenomena. Trek has a noted history of detecting, determining the root cause of, and collapsing various spatial anomalies. As such, it does not seem to be too much of a stretch to suggest that the UFP may be able to collapse the "warp space" exits used by the IoM. Such a collapse would probably be catastrophic for the ships attempting to exit the warp.
Regarding conventional weapons - here is a list of documented Trek technology which I think may be easily applied to good use against an enemy such as the IoM.
Unrestricted:
Self replicating weapons - Deep Space Nine - Call to Arms
AI smart weapons - Voyager - Dreadnought (ref: 1T Antimatter, shielded, disruptor equipped)
Restricted by treaty.
Interphasic cloaking technology - ST:TNG - Pegasus
Combining said technologies to create advanced AI driven, self guiding, replicating, shielded/cloaked, interphasic torpedoes doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. A mass rollout of uncrewed super smart weapons would go far to balancing the numerical inferiority suffered by the UFP.
keezus - I've pretty much already suggested they would do exactly that - find a way to close warp rifts to either entirely prevent exit (which happened in the recent Word Bearers novel) or, more cruelly, collapse it as the ship leaves the warp.
However I dont see it beign a "conventional" engagement at all - the trek shis have *no need* to drop otu of warp to attack the IoM vessels, meaning they can hit with impunity - even if they cannot one shot the vessels, death by a thousand (or hundred, or 10) would do the job. And they would have plenty of time to do it before the IoM was in range of any UFP planet.
nosferatu1001 wrote:However I dont see it beign a "conventional" engagement at all - the trek shis have *no need* to drop otu of warp to attack the IoM vessels, meaning they can hit with impunity - even if they cannot one shot the vessels, death by a thousand (or hundred, or 10) would do the job. And they would have plenty of time to do it before the IoM was in range of any UFP planet.
While this tactic is admittedly effective - the IoM may also be able to destroy the attacking ship(s) and/or incoming torpedoes by volume of firepower - otherwise known as "spray and pray". Similar strategies were employed by surface fleets against aircraft in WW2 and bomber groups against fighters. It is of course conceivable that the UFP would be able to plot a trajectory to avoid all incoming fire - but canon does not seem to support this. IIRC, proximity to planets may also limit the UFP's mobility as starships usually proceed at impulse within star systems on the TV episodes.
40k wins this argument, purely because the Star Trekkies will not be able to counter this argument. They've avoided my points twice. Now...where's the Chaos vs UFP thread??
In comes the constellation guns a'blazing.
Then in comes Eisenhorn along with his ol' buddy ol' pal cherubael. Cherbael wrecks the ship. Then twiddles his thumbs. Then wrecks more ships. Then goes away. (He destroys a warlord titan by being there ; ) ).
Or even....
Twenty Grey Knight terminators teleport in and blow up a ship (Stop telling me it's not impossible. They do it whilst into warp transition into a moving infernus class cruiser with shields and what not. It also has a psyker protecting it. That's better than a retribution class capital ship, and for the record the ship has a nova cannon )
Or even....
The Emperor blowing you up. Seriously. Not too difficult for someone who can keep the Chaos powers from invading, rip holes in the universe ie the storm of the emperors wrath whilst being on a life support machine.
Or even....
Being attacked by assasins.
Or even...
Being attacked by daemons. And don't tell me the imperium only. The imperium has captured plenty of daemons in its time.
You get my point. The imperium has so many ways of destroying the UFP, and yes they can work on a faster than light scale. If anyone wants even more methods, just ask. Heck, I'll chuck some more in if you counter argue these
Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless
@ Karimabuseer: Didn't you post this already? Oh, and my dad can beat up your dad... so nyah nyah nyah!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sageheart wrote:
The Unending wrote:
Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless
wonderful!
There was another thread like this a while back. The trouble with the UFP / IoM comparison is that Trek is based on pesudo-science. WH40k is based on space opera fantasy. As soon as you try and scrutinize the 40k numbers, everything falls apart. Let me elaborate:
Photon Torpedo: 24 MT yeild from 1.5kg antimatter / matter reaction - a bit smaller than man sized.
IoM missile: 610 GT yield. This makes it 25417x more powerful than a photon torpedo. In order to match yields, 38.125 tons of antimatter / matter. Unfortunately, the IoM doesn't use antimatter / matter reactions. They use FUSION reactions instead, which are much less efficient... Even if they were 10% as efficient (and I doubt that it is), that would result in each torpedo clocking in at 762.5 tons of reactive materials for the warhead alone, not counting any dentonation mechanisms, drive components etc. Even composed of a dense material such as U, you would be looking at a warhead that is 40.35m3+ in materials only.
That's just a single torpedo. The fluff indicates that 10ks+ quantity of these torpedoes are carried. It begins to get silly when one considers the powerplant required to sustain fire to the ship batteries (requiring sustained power, magnitudes more powerful than the torpedoes) and engines - due to the lack of efficiency provided by Fusion reactors, the amount of space required for fuel and reactors is enormous. Given an Imperial Class ship, kms long, if one uses a figure of fusion having 10x efficiency over fission - over 50% of the ship would be needed for reactor space in order for its main guns to operate in a battlefield situation - this doesn't include engine and life support draw. It doesn't include space needed for fuel, nor space for crew, nor storage for ordinance, nor the food/water that must also be carried to sustain the enormous crew and embarked IoM navy / IG - especially since IoM ships could potentially spend MONTHS in the warp.
When compared against nonsensical fantasy technology as featured in WH40k, Trek doesn't stand a chance. It's like asking someone who would win in a fight - Hulk Hogan - based on his exaggerated (but still within the realm of human capability) in-ring exploits or The Hulk, based on the comics (utter fantasy).
When compared against nonsensical fantasy technology as featured in WH40k, Trek doesn't stand a chance. It's like asking someone who would win in a fight - Hulk Hogan - based on his exaggerated (but still within the realm of human capability) in-ring exploits or The Hulk, based on the comics (utter fantasy).
Well, yes. That's kind of the point.
Why do you think the technology used 40,000 years in the future (that would be about 7 times as long as the human race has existed so far) would BE comprehensible? I would frankly assume that it would seem utterly fantastic to us. I imagine a Sumerian king would have a very similar reaction if asked whether he thought the Assyrian army, the most advanced military of the time, could stand up to the USMC.
"Weapons that send small bits of metal flying through the air too fast to see, at ranges of hundreds of yards? Well, of COURSE, if we're discussing FANTASY, this "USMC" would win. But we're talking about REAL warfare!"
nosferatu1001 wrote:One thing ISNT uncertain: the ability to fire while at warp is a HUGE advantage that the IoM has no known counter for: psykers MAY be able to locate ships, but likely all they could do is tell you an attack is coming - if you cannot neutralise the incoming torpedoes you wouldnt be any better off, just slightly faster at damage control (if that did you any good)
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
If we look at the weapons carried by say, a Lunar-Class cruiser, namely lance batteries that are more than capable of destroying country-sized areas, we see that the IoM does indeed have a massive amount of firepower at it's disposal. Now consider that the shields of the aforementioned cruiser can soak up such damage, albeit only to a certain extent. Then consider that the ship itself, without shields, can survive several strikes before any significant damage is done. Somebody recently provided ample evidence that Imperial ship weaponry is powerful on a ridiculous scale, as I recall, and even provided evidence that the Federation vessels' weapons could not compare to them in terms of brute force (as an aside, we are discussing standard armaments, right?)
Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.
As to your point about the Structural integrity fields, I have to point out that again, the Imperium makes up for that by using super-hard alloys. Seriously, Adamantium and Ceramite (as materials) are incredibly durable: Ceramite is heat-resistant to the Nth degree, and Adamantium is the hardest material in the known galaxy. I'm just saying that the Imperial vessels aren't as helpless as you seem to believe.
As a question, are Photon torpedos a traditional torpedo weapon, or an energy weapon? This is very important, y'see.
keezus wrote:
"Weapons that send small bits of metal flying through the air too fast to see, at ranges of hundreds of yards? Well, of COURSE, if we're discussing FANTASY, this "USMC" would win. But we're talking about REAL warfare!"
Oh I agree with your assessment. "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistingushable for magic."
However, considering that most technology has been lost to the IoM, I do believe that it is debatable as to whether the technology featured in WH40k can be considered advanced - and if it is, whether it is more advanced than Trek. I would have no problem accepting all the silly power levels except for one thing. The writers made a half assed attempt to explain how things work...
It is explicity stated all over the fluff that the majority of equipment employed by IoM uses Fusion as an energy source - by nature, fusion is generation of power through smashing smaller atoms together into bigger ones, where as fission is splitting atoms. While the process could become more streamlined, eficient with smaller equipment - this basic premise shouldn't change regardless of technological advancements. Fusion also has a maximum energy yield which is less than that of antimatter-matter annihilation reactions. What doesn't change is the quantity of raw fuel required for the reaction. Considering that Trek vessels use anti-matter / matter reactions for power (with the warp core roughly 1/4 of the ship) and have weapons and shields drawing power 2 magnitudes lower than that of IoM vessels, these less efficient powerplants (again by several magnitudes) of the IoM should, by all logic be enormous.
On the one hand, you have Starships, Titans and void shields. On the other hand, you have the elite warriors of the IoM Adeptus Astartes carrying hand held caseless rocket guns riding in repurposed industrial equipment (Rhino STC). On the one hand, the IoM can bomb a planet into oblivion from orbit. On the other hand, they can't seem to overcome the Orks, while numerous, whom (outside of space craft and energy weapons) are equipped with mostly ramshackle 21th century level tech.
As a result, IMHO, 40k tech ISN'T so advanced as to be indistiguishable from magic... especially since the writers don't treat it as such.
Wait you guys are comparing Who would win the Star trek universe or the Imperium?
Imperium dude!
Grey Knights teleport on board Federation Ships. Well they are Screwed. Grey Knights Win! Terminators Win! Captain Kirk thrown into outer space by Yarrick. Inquisitors Stealing Technology from Scotty. Well imperium won basically that's How i would say it.
The Federation can't fight against superior armor, and weapons. the Imperium uses Advanced weapons. Lasers don't work. That's basically a Laspistol compared to a Bolter. End.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.
A photorp is an antimatter weapon. It doesn't matter what your hull composition is, considering that once the containment field is penetrated, the antimatter and the matter of the target's hull will mutually annihilate and give off energy. This reaction doesn't care what kind of matter the hull is made of.
In my view, the trouble is that there really isn't any clear indication of how void shields function, nor what they stop. I am fairly certain that they wouldn't stop something equipped with an interphasic cloak, but you'd definitely need higher yields than standard photorps to compete with IoM armored hulls. I think that the "Dreadnought" Cardassian weapon from the Voyager episode of the same name would be fairly effective (possibly one-shotting an IoM ship), if it were able to bypass the void shields, being that it travels up to Warp 9, is self guiding, shielded, can defend itself from enemy fighters with its disruptor banks and has a one ton antimatter payload. With such weapons in existence, it seems foolhardy to me to actually send SHIPS to engage the IoM.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.
A photorp is an antimatter weapon. It doesn't matter what your hull composition is, considering that once the containment field is penetrated, the antimatter and the matter of the target's hull will mutually annihilate and give off energy. This reaction doesn't care what kind of matter the hull is made of.
Seems a bit of a misnomer to call it a Photon Torpedo, then. That would imply it to be a plasma-based weapon. Damn those Trek writers, they've confused me again!
Yeah but your comparing them to a lance weapon. Lances can go through anything shields. Lances are basically superheated metals going at the speed of a asteriod x40,000. it's effect is a 400 gigaton bomb. Basically an earth shatterer. A single lance weapon form a crusier can destory an entire moon.
It is explicity stated all over the fluff that the majority of equipment employed by IoM uses Fusion as an energy source - by nature, fusion is generation of power through smashing smaller atoms together into bigger ones, where as fission is splitting atoms. While the process could become more streamlined, eficient with smaller equipment - this basic premise shouldn't change regardless of technological advancements. Fusion also has a maximum energy yield which is less than that of antimatter-matter annihilation reactions. What doesn't change is the quantity of raw fuel required for the reaction. Considering that Trek vessels use anti-matter / matter reactions for power (with the warp core roughly 1/4 of the ship) and have weapons and shields drawing power 2 magnitudes lower than that of IoM vessels, these less efficient powerplants (again by several magnitudes) of the IoM should, by all logic be enormous.
On the one hand, you have Starships, Titans and void shields. On the other hand, you have the elite warriors of the IoM Adeptus Astartes carrying hand held caseless rocket guns riding in repurposed industrial equipment (Rhino STC). On the one hand, the IoM can bomb a planet into oblivion from orbit. On the other hand, they can't seem to overcome the Orks, while numerous, whom (outside of space craft and energy weapons) are equipped with mostly ramshackle 21th century level tech.
As a result, IMHO, 40k tech ISN'T so advanced as to be indistiguishable from magic... especially since the writers don't treat it as such.
I will be the first to admit that atomic physics is not my area of expertise. Is the yield of a fusion reaction related to the atoms involved? If so, it might be that Imperial fusion technology is simply better than what we currently think of as "fusion".
For instance, the inefficiency of a fusion reaction comes from energy being dispersed as light, heat, and particle radiation, correct? If Imperial reactors included technology which, to throw out a wild example, prevented the emission of electromagnetic rays from the atoms being fused, wouldn't that increase efficiency and allow both a smaller reactor and less fuel mass? Of course, what I just said is probably psuedoscientific gobbledygook, but then we are discussing what powers city-sized starships in the far future. . .
Keezus - spray and pray would not work: you could not cover say, a 1 light second bubble of space (300km^3*pi*4/3$) with a sufficient density of fire to actually hit anything.
And that assumes they get as close as 1 lightsecond - double the distance? You now have to cover a sphere 8 times the size.
In addition it wouldnt work in a fleet, as they couldnt hit their own side - there would be plenty of deadzones.
Karimabuseer - actually you were answered a couple pages back. You assume that a) cherubael can go through trek shields as easily as a titans void shields, a shky assumption, that b) you can teleport onto a ship you cannot detect, through the shi9elds you dont know you can penetrate, accurately enough, or c) the emperors dead, get over it, d) how do the assasins get on the ship? Magic? e) captured daemons are daemonhosts. you know, like cherubael. Same problem as before.
Anything else, maybe add something new this time?
keezus - dont forget that the base MT yield is NOT the highest yield it can get to - the photon warheads have a dialable yield, from 25isotons to 200.
At 200isotons that vaporises a city. Or , in other words, it vaporises something about 5km from end to end...happy coincidence that!
All: Fusion releases energy by exploiting the binding energy difference between an atom and a heavier atom - witht he most efficient reaction being deuterium / tritium. well, known to us anyway, and unless theyve found a new element zero
that efficiency is at best an order of magnitude lower than matter annihilation.
And as was stated - antimatter makes your hull go away, regardless of what it is. Hits near the engines, and breaches plasma containment - well thats bye bye that engine [or bank of engines] and probably bye bye that side of the ship
Asherian - no, no it cant. Otherwise planets hit by lance strikes would nt show essentiallyt surface (not even through the crust) damage.
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), fighters are able to avoid capital ship level weapons, and even in a one on one confrontation such as the Defiant vs. the Lakota....we saw how much difficulty the Lakota had in striking the Defiant, a target about the same size as an Imperial bomber. While they WOULD suffer losses (perhaps 100% if they lose their base ships)....Imperial bombers would be able to destroy Federation ships and kill large numbers of Starfleet crewmen (escape pods = easy target practice for Imperial gunners.