Ediin finally gets one right..... and gets called a fool.... I feel sorry for you

I think 3 will be Corax, 2 I'm hoping Sanguinius, and 1 will be Night Haunter.

btw, why does nobody on this page but me call him Night Haunter?

HAH! I was right!

WHAT WHAT melon-fether!

Ludd is glad that Morty came fourth, better than I expected tbh.

I think Sanguinius will be first, as much as I love Corax. In fact, I think Night Haunter will come in second. I think Corax is next.

As a big Alpha Legion (duh!) AND Raven Guard fan...

...I approve!

Just Dave wrote:As has been recognised, we're now in the top five and Ediin (and most others it seems) is still predicting it wrong! In Alphabetical order the remaining Primarchs are:

Alpharius

Corax

Konrad Kurze

Mortarion

Sanguinus

and next up is:

5th: Batting For The Other Team.


Further on the list of positives about Alpharius is his actions when he was found by the great crusade; he boarded Horus' ship and made it to the bridge, whereby he dodged Horus' shots and his followers being cut down and met Horus face-to-face where they both rejoiced at seeing one another! That's awesome! He knew a Primarch was coming, he knew which ship was his, where the bridge was, managed to board it and dodge all that fire! Alpharius could only have made this moment better if instead of him and Horus embracing, Alpharius kneed him in his gonads and said "that's for shooting at me. Brother." that would've been awesome! Have you also ever considered where Omegon was at this time?
Actually, on does Ferrus have balls of steel? I know, with this and madonna I'm doing a lot of 40K theorising today, inspired by the mystery of the Alpha Legion I guess!

What!? I never heard about this....so Alpharius was at the Battle of Terra?

It's from when Alpharius was found

Correctamundo Lord o' Battles!


Still no prediction from Ediin however, I will just have to go ahead with the next one and then the bets will have to come in for whomever's first.

Next guy is incoming...

CORAX!!!!


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Did I commit a foul?

3rd: Voice Of An Angel, Face Like He's Been Bobbing For Chips.

Yep. Everybody thought he would be first, but noooo, he's third! Trying to understand me is like a staring contest with the Eye Of Terror...

In bronze place, it's Sanguinius, lord of the Blood Angels and the Emperors favourite daughter.

Actually he's not the Emperors favourite daughter, you are all homophobes! Sanguinius is a legend, the Primarch closest to perfection, the guy who sold his life to save his pops. Whilst of all of the other Primarchs - and even the Emperor - have flaws, Sanguinius seemingly has none.

As various people have noted - Excalibur and Brettila in particular - I'm all about the good guys, the guys with honour and that stand up for what is right and Sanguinius is a symbol for just that. He stood in the face of adversity and death. Humanity was teetering on a knife edge and all the way Sanguinius was there fighting for what's right. He never backed down, he had the gift of foresight, he almost certainly knew he was going to die but he didn't turn away, he went to Horus and did the good thing of trying to get him to back down. Many Primarchs would've just waded in there and got themselves choppity-chopped, Sanguinius gave Horus a chance - not that he needed one - and didn't stoop to his level. So he died, how could he not when his almost equal was imbued with the power of four very angry gods?!
That brief encounter made Sanguinius a legend and a martyr, but he was so much more then that. He stood at the fore-front of the siege of terra, fighting where the battle was fiercest. He fought the bloodiest battle humanity has known and even with recently-broken legs and inevitable fatigue. He picked up a greater daemon, a blood-thirster, the greatest killing machine known to man and he broke its back over his knee. He's not just an angel, his a Dark Angel. Not in the mopy "I hate everyone but myself" way, but in the utterly cool, utterly bad-ass but utterly loyal way.

Some people say Sanguinius looks like a sissy, I think he looks like an angel. Not an angel as in a girl or someone in a frilly white dress sent down by him upstairs, but a furious beacon of righteousness. Someone who is there to save and inspire those that need saving and inspiring, he would stand up for what is right at all costs. You've got a super-human 9ft+ tall warrior, clad in intricate gold armour, wielding a whacking great sword or spear and flying on white feathered wings. That does not sound like a sissy to me. So what he's got long hair? so what if he has to have a manicure before he opens a can of whup-ass? He looks majestic and angelic. He's not a brute, he's an angel in a brutal and grim-dark future. But he's an angel that goes around killing the enemy rather than telling random people that god's made them pregnant...

Sanguinius stands for everything I believe in from a character such as him; self-sacrifice, honour, courage, loyalty, reason, resolution, endurance, deadliness and much more. He was the one Primarch that was flawless, both in character and action. He was ultimately a dude. An uber-dude. An uber, flying and blood-letting dude.

I can barely write how cool, how noble and how good a guy Sanguinius is, but you'll hopefully get the general jist of it from this.
However, if he's so cool, so perfect and so good a guy, why is he only third? How has space-batman and space-robin (raven to be precise) beaten him?! Well, because all three of them have character and all three of them ultimately sought noble ideals, however whilst the other two struggled to achieve righteousness and a brighter future for the galaxy, for Sanguinus it came easily to him. He was perfect from the start (to the end), whilst Corax and Kurze had to really work at it and learn how to be right and do the best thing.

Sanguinius is a hero, Corax and Kurze are tragic heroes.

Get into it!

Though now that Sanguinius is #3, and not #1, I will be warming up the Orbital Banninator if the Night Haunter is #1!

Corax FTW, and your continued existence on DAKKA DAKKA!

(And yes, I'm kidding.)

(Maybe.)

I definitely think Night Haunter will get #1 even though I love Corax.

Alpharius wrote:Get into it!

Though now that Sanguinius is #3, and not #1, I will be warming up the Orbital Banninator if the Night Haunter is #1!

Corax FTW, and your continued existence on DAKKA DAKKA!

(And yes, I'm kidding.)

(Maybe.)

*gulp*

What if Omegon is #1?

Corax is next. we know so little about the guy (I think), He made his legion fubar with all the crazy mutants, and to top it off he sat in a room for a year moping about his screwup then leaves his legion for the eye of terror.

Night Haunter is basically the Batman of 40k. He just has to win

Night Haunter is a screwball who threw (one of) the ultimate hissy fit(s) and let himself get beheaded to... prove a point?

Death is nothing compared to vindication?

How about... the best revenge is living well?

And really, the vast majority of the galaxy doesn't know anything about Curze or his legion, other than that they were losers.

Who lost.

So, Corax.

Or Omegon.

Or else!!!

Kurze and Corax, from what I and my brother have read of the Horus Heresy books, seem to be plot afterthoughts, occasionally lip serviced but never really displayed as characters themselves, just talked about on occasion. My understanding of them is limited to other fluff from here and there.

I understand that Kurze was a right bastard, all about terror tactics just to spread fear. He later felt bad about it but does that excuse doing it again and again? Sounds like a hooker in a Catholic confessional booth to me. Great for a character, but with kind of a lousy character to him.

Corax was stealth and speed. The stealth and speed, the true purpose of astartes war idealism; Strike fast strike hard where it hurts the most. Get it done and move on.

So now that all of our angelic hopes have been dashed with Sangie taking the bronze, I have to hope Corax as #1, Kurze as an undeserved #2. One of them did everything an astartes legion idealistically should do in how he conducted his military actions. One did everything they idealistically shouldn't do, and attempts an excuse for himself by having a sense of guilt.

Corax for the win. (may as well flip a coin at this point)

I can't believe you dissed Sangie over two relatively minor side characters because he is too perfect without trying. Dissed him that bad though! A BRONZE!? It's not his fault he didn't have to struggle to be perfect! NOBODY who is perfect has to struggle to be perfect! That's why they're perfect, right?!

I belive that Kurze Will get the top spot must wait till later to find out.

Did someone say Vindicator..... no?

well dome dave for creating the greateat thread ever made !!

Just Dave wrote:In bronze place, it's Sanguinius, lord of the Blood Angels and the Emperors favourite daughter.

YES!!! I've been quoted TWICE in this crazy, awesome thread.

nickmund wrote:well done dave for creating the greateat thread ever made !!

I love you Dave.

I agree 100000000% with your review. Why cant 40k have nice, shiny, heroic things?

Corax #2, Kurze #1.

So it is written. So it shall be.

Or the other way around possibly. Mystic portents are hard to decipher!

Alpharius, I love you like a brother. But, seriously, did you read Soul Hunter?

Curze's legion is brutally evil, they have that certain thing that so many others (coughBlackLegioncough) are missing. Oh, wait, I know what it is! Motivation!

The end of that book blew me away. It harkened back to some of the greatest moments I have ever seen in fiction, where the villainous protagonists remind the reader why you shouldn't be rooting for them, why they are the f-ing bad guys! It rocked my friggin world. It was so good I needed a cigarette after reading it.

Meanwhile, Corax is a (unimaginatively named) Wolverine knock-off. The only way Corax has any chance of trumping Curze here is if Dave is a rabid X-Men fan.

Jimsolo wrote:[...] The only way Corax has any chance of trumping Curze here is if Dave is a rabid X-Men fan.

Either that, or Alpharius threats xD

Jokes apart, this primarch's reviews should be immortalized in the forum.

Poor Blood Angel, but that evil Kruze on #2 at least? He has such a ugly character.

Dark wrote:

Either that, or Alpharius threats xD

Jokes apart, this primarch's reviews should be immortalized in the forum.

I think Just Dave should put all his reviews into an article once the thread's over, this website needs some more.

Happygrunt wrote:I hope Sanguineus is first. Blood angels need some love after the Lord Fauntlery Debacle.

Sigh...what have I done now?

I dont understand how i managed to quote myself and not realise. I must have been out of it.

Time to lay off the Uskavar?

Im strictly an Amasec drinker.

ahhh, so you do the cheap stuff

All students have to

Vindicator#9 wrote:Did someone say Vindicator..... no?

Never.

Alpharius wrote:Night Haunter is a screwball who threw (one of) the ultimate hissy fit(s) and let himself get beheaded to... prove a point?

Death is nothing compared to vindication?

How about... the best revenge is living well?

And really, the vast majority of the galaxy doesn't know anything about Curze or his legion, other than that they were losers.

Who lost.

So, Corax.

Or Omegon.

Or else!!!

Alpharius, I know you're just playing hard to get. Jimsolo's come back with a suitable retort to this so I'll leave him to it.
Although I love you more like a wise uncle rather than a brother but that's just me...

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:In bronze place, it's Sanguinius, lord of the Blood Angels and the Emperors favourite daughter.

YES!!! I've been quoted TWICE in this crazy, awesome thread.

Twice?! Dang, and Little Lord mentioned you in his! Had I known!! *shakes fist*

Happygrunt wrote:I love you Dave.

I agree 100000000% with your review. Why cant 40k have nice, shiny, heroic things?

Thanks man, appreciated. And the simple answer is because it's too grim and too dark.

SaintHazard wrote:Corax #2, Kurze #1.

So it is written. So it shall be.

Or the other way around possibly. Mystic portents are hard to decipher!

Those are some good odds you're providing there Saint, you can be the thread's 'official' bookie/bet-taker!

Cadet_Commissar_Ludd wrote:

Dark wrote:

Either that, or Alpharius threats xD

Jokes apart, this primarch's reviews should be immortalized in the forum.

I think Just Dave should put all his reviews into an article once the thread's over, this website needs some more.

Hmmm, thanks guys, I may just do that...

In other news, I'm not sure when I'll be able to finish the thread... Ya'll may even have to wait 'till Wednesday as I'm a busy guy! Sorry Lads, I'll see what I can do...

Jimsolo wrote:Alpharius, I love you like a brother. But, seriously, did you read Soul Hunter?

I am a NL fan and have read Soul Hunter more or less twice. I also just listened to Throne of Lies. While I would agree that NL are insidious villains as per Index Astartes II, I wouldn't say these works portray them as such. Aaron Dembski-Bowden makes them a bit too sympathetic. Especially at the end of Throne of Lies:



Don't get me wrong, Dembski-Bowden's books are very, very good. But if you contrast his stuff on NL with the Word Bearers books (which aren't as fun to read, admittedly) . . . well, it makes NL look like utter pansies or, at the very least, just more HURRR WE IS SPHESS MAHREINS HURR HURR.



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Alpharius wrote:Night Haunter is a screwball who threw (one of) the ultimate hissy fit(s) and let himself get beheaded to... prove a point?

Curze is amazing. His life and death prove that the Emperor's Master Plan™ is phony . . . and that really is the essence of Chaos Space Marine. Think of it this way: Horus went after the Emperor basically just so that he could set himself up as another emperor--and not even an ultimately powerful one like daddy but rather as a sort of viceroy to the Chaos gods. What a loser. His hatred of the Imperium all boiled down to petty envy and greed. It's not that he rejected the Emperor; he just wanted to be emperor himself. Ironically, all his actions accomplished was effectively pushing all humanity into worshiping the Emperor as a god. Curze, on the other hand, saw through both the Great Crusade and Chaos. His "vindication" is a major secret because it shows that the Emperor is no god at all but rather just another tyrant--in other words, that there is no difference between the Emperor and Horus, no difference between order and chaos. In this sort of godless, meaningless world there is only terror.

Bah!

Of course I read SOUL HUNTER!

And, while I loved it, I still find the Night Lords' 'motivation'... lacking.

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, in the 40K Galaxy, Chaos, Evil, Mutation, Heresy, Traitorous actions - ALL HAVE HORRIBLE CONSEQUENCES!

The Traitors, no matter why they started down their paths, were wrong!

Continuing to say "We was right!" is, well, wrong!

And, I too love this thread!

All kidding aside, it has sparked some great conversation and just about no hard feelings - no small accomplishment given the subject matter!

Alpharius wrote:Continuing to say "We was right!" is, well, wrong!

The troublesome thing is that Curze was right. A quick glance around the galaxy by M42 reveals that nearly all worlds are pretty much variations of Nostramo. And we know what the Night Haunter thought of Nostramo . . .

I am now using my ONE THOUSANDTH POST(!) to say this thread is Awesome!
man I wish I could make a thread like this but I'm to lazy too

(sorry but i have to)
OMGOGOMGOMOMGOMGOMG!!!!!1!! ONE THOUSANDTH POST!!!!!1!!

Manchu wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Continuing to say "We was right!" is, well, wrong!

The troublesome thing is that Curze was right. A quick glance around the galaxy by M42 reveals that nearly all worlds are pretty much variations of Nostramo. And we know what the Night Haunter thought of Nostramo . . .

What?!?

Curze and the other Traitors were wrong!

If it wasn't for 9 Demigods and their assorted snit-fits, the 40K Galaxy would be...well, a lot nicer than it is now!

Not at all. Ultramar aside, the galaxy was gak before, during, and after the Great Crusade. The Imperium doesn't make things better. From Curze's perspective, Nostramo is a good example.

The Imperium is a pretty gakky place. Kurze is my favorite next to Leman Russ. And I find it honorable he let himself be killed for his wrongs.

Russ is a bully I fully agree, that's probably why I like him.

Er, Shadowbrand, Curze didn't let himself be killed to atone for his own crimes but rather to prove that the Emperor was just a tyrant.

Really? I read it as he felt bad about the Heresy so he let M'shen off him. As vindication for his crimes.

What book do you guys get all this Kurze stuff from?

I...Was right? About Mortarion?



Victory Dance Everyone!

And Kurze will be no.1.

I'll be right. Seriously, it's 50/50 now.

Guitardian wrote:What book do you guys get all this Kurze stuff from?

INdex Astartes articles, initially published in White Dwarf and then as a series of books

Index Astartes articles...

Ah, the good old days, when the Fluff was cool AND it made sense!

And, you guys are crazy!

The Imperium was a much nicer place during the Great Crusade, provided, of course, you played nice with and in the Imperium.

Then, the Heresy.

All gone, like tears in rain!

I miss the Index Astartes.........

Alpharius wrote:The Imperium was a much nicer place during the Great Crusade, provided, of course, you played nice with and in the Imperium.

Evidence?

IMO, the only light in the pre-Heresy GrimDark was the Emperor's vision. So the only thing that really changed after the heresy is that no one even bothered with any shade of optimism anymore.

The Horus Heresy books paint the 30th Millennium as much nicer and reasonable a place than the 40th Millennium.

Well maby not nicer, but at least there was hope for humanity then.

The suspense is killing me...

me too!

Manchu wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The Imperium was a much nicer place during the Great Crusade, provided, of course, you played nice with and in the Imperium.

Evidence?

IMO, the only light in the pre-Heresy GrimDark was the Emperor's vision. So the only thing that really changed after the heresy is that no one even bothered with any shade of optimism anymore.

Planets that quickly complied 100%(which was most of them) could see the Vanguard fleets leave within months.

some planets would become compliant within weeks.


in the cases of Technologically advanced societies the only difference before and after would be interplanetary trade and the yearly tithes.

As noted, no hard quotes or evidence (Melissia, is that you???), but the overall tenor and tone of the latest Horus Heresy series of books certainly paints the 30,000's as a nicer time and place to live.

As also noted, hope and optimism were certainly in evidence as well!

Melissa's approach is demanding but it is important to separate what is written in the books and what you read into them. The idea that M31 is so much nicer than M42 seems to me to belong to the latter category. Again, the big difference is that the Emperor believes--or at least declares--that everywhere can be like Ultramar. Post-Golden Throne Adeptus Terra does not.

Manchu wrote:Not at all. Ultramar aside, the galaxy was gak before, during, and after the Great Crusade. The Imperium doesn't make things better. From Curze's perspective, Nostramo is a good example.

Thats just wrong, the pre-heresy Empire was a much better place to live, many planets better than what we have now on Terra on many places.

Again--Evidence?

The HH books?

What evidence do you have that the pre-heresy empire was just as bad as now?

(just playing Devils advocate here)

Grey Templar wrote:The HH books?

What evidence do you have that the pre-heresy empire was just as bad as now?

Have to agree with GT here.

I know this is a but wishy-washy for you, but the general theme of the HH books is that the 30's were rather nice, given all the the Emperor had and was planning on instituting.

The next time I'm reading a HH book, I'll jot down some notes, but it IS there.

And even in the 40's, not many worlds are NOSTRAMO bad!

Manchu wrote:Again--Evidence?

I assume you read the Horus Heresy Novels? Then you know your answer.

Of the planets that the Primarchs were from, which (besides Macragge) was HappyBright? As to the rediscovered worlds, I can't think of one that wasn't rather wretched or made wretched by the Legions. I am especially thinking of Kyme's SW story in Tales of Heresy. Or the Word Bearers story in that same volume. Or Mechanicus (Mechanicum?--you know, Graham's book about Mars). Yeah, I'd say M31 was pretty dystopian and not just compared to Star Trek. Was it better than M42? As I've said: at least the Emperor was around in those days.


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Dark Scipio wrote:I assume you read the Horus Heresy Novels? Then you know your answer.

As to this style of response, I'd prefer an actual example. Alpharius is being honest by saying "it comes across as . . ." and "I will find an example . . ."

He's still around... in your heart.

The Primarchs home worlds, were not part of the Imperium, after they joined the Imperium even hellish places like Deliverance or Baal became fine places. Deliverance was still not rich but fair and just.

The first three novels also show free journalists and artists.

Even Nostramo was a fine place as long as Curze had his sane time and was present.

Btw. you ask for evidence, without ever giving us ones for your thesis until now.

Here's where all the Space Marines shed manly tears.

(Awesome timing, StH!)


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Dark Scipio wrote:The Primarchs home worlds, were not part of the Imperium, after they joined the Imperium even hellish places like Deliverance or Baal became fine places. Deliverance was still not rich but fair and just.

To the extent that these places are nice correlates to the lack of non-SM Imperial presence.

The first three novels also show free journalists and artists.

The extent of their freedom quickly becomes clear--short, short leashes made from SM patience. Which is in rare supply.

Even Nostramo was a fine place as long as Curze had his sane time and was present.

Actually it was awful even then. Everyone was constantly terrified and wouldn't even go outside unless to show up promptly for a full day of ultra-efficient work.

Btw. you ask for evidence, without ever giving us ones for your thesis until now.

Kay, but I'm still waiting on yours . . .

The extent of their freedom quickly becomes clear--short, short leashes made from SM patience. Which is in rare supply.

To the extent, that they are free but not totaly while joing the military expeditions of the SM, and they are more free than many journalists on Today-Terra.

To the extent that these places are nice correlates to the lack of non-SM Imperial presence.

I dont know what you want to say to this topic with that.

Kay, but I'm still waiting on yours . . .

I just did, like you saw. More than you.

Okay, there is no evidence of M42 journalism so your comparison is made on an assumption rather than evidence. But this isn't reallya "freedom of the press" topic at all because the Rememberancers aren't actually journalists. Their job is to produce propaganda. As soon as they start to focus on stuff that is negative, the Primarchs clamp down.

The point about the Primarch's homeworlds is that the Imperium itself is the taint, spreading the cancer that is GrimDarkness. Places that are okay become worse after the Imperium gets there. This seems to be the case even with the really awful places, like Nostramo. (Unless you think exterminatus is better than how Nostramo was--a plausible viewpoint, I grant.)

Also, can you refresh me as to what evidence you provided? How about an example from a HH book where a place gets better because the Great Crusade arrives? Any examples of how even Terra or Mars were better back then? The improved conditions on Baal or Deliverance (or Prospero or Caliban, etc) were all pre-Great Crusade and nothing to do with the Imperium. To the extent that the Imperium became involved, they got worse.

I would like to say that I think you should take this argument to a new thred and figure out weather its m30 or m42 thats nicer there.

Alpharius wrote:Bah!

Of course I read SOUL HUNTER!

And, while I loved it, I still find the Night Lords' 'motivation'... lacking.

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, in the 40K Galaxy, Chaos, Evil, Mutation, Heresy, Traitorous actions - ALL HAVE HORRIBLE CONSEQUENCES!

The Traitors, no matter why they started down their paths, were wrong!

Continuing to say "We was right!" is, well, wrong!

And, I too love this thread!

All kidding aside, it has sparked some great conversation and just about no hard feelings - no small accomplishment given the subject matter!

Yes, I totally agree which I find ironic considering your support of the thrice damned Alpha Legion! Traitors I say!

Does it really surprise you that Alpharius is torn? Heehee.

Manchu wrote:How about an example from a HH book where a place gets better because the Great Crusade arrives? Any examples of how even Terra or Mars were better back then? The improved conditions on Baal or Deliverance (or Prospero or Caliban, etc) were all pre-Great Crusade and nothing to do with the Imperium. To the extent that the Imperium became involved, they got worse.

The Ark Reach Cluster (from A Thousand Sons) seemed quite a nice place before the Space Wolves, Word Bearers et al showed up to stomp face. There's quite often throughout the HH series descriptions of how picturesque, beautiful etc etc worlds were before the Crusade fleets arrived, too - usually mentioned in the past tense, as the Imperium reduces everything to smoking, compliant rubble.

I agree that 30k comes across as better than 40k, but it's still pretty dystopian.

OK, I'm as guilty as the next, so let's take this topic to a different thread and let JD finish his list.

I'm sure it is taking him some time as when there's only two left, you "have" to release both at the same time, right?

And really, since Corax is clearly #1, he's probably working up something super special to celebrate that yes, a loyal Primarch HAS to be #1!

Alpharius wrote:OK, I'm as guilty as the next, so let's take this topic to a different thread and let JD finish his list.

I'm sure it is taking him some time as when there's only two left, you "have" to release both at the same time, right?

And really, since Corax is clearly #1, he's probably working up something super special to celebrate that yes, a loyal Primarch HAS to be #1!

I really hope its Cruze.

I would hate to see Just Dave banned.

CURZE FOR PRESIDENT

Alpharius wrote:OK, I'm as guilty as the next, so let's take this topic to a different thread and let JD finish his list.

I'm sure it is taking him some time as when there's only two left, you "have" to release both at the same time, right?

And really, since Corax is clearly #1, he's probably working up something super special to celebrate that yes, a loyal Primarch HAS to be #1!

Guess Who's Back?! Back Again! Davey's back! Tell a friend! Presuming your both care and have any friends to tell that is...

By all means carry this conversation on, although as Alphy said earlier, I'm also very pleased there's been no aggression or anything within this thread!


I assume, it'll be a bit of a let down if I tell you guys that I've just been busy rather than making something extra special?
However, I do intend to finish the ranking tonight () so at least that'll be special in itself! I'll try to see if there's something uber-extraordinary I can do however!

Start placing your bets now gentlemen and ladies and Manchu.

waiting in the wings JD


@Manchu: an example of a world where things got better for people after the impierium arrived is Caliban.

LOL WUT i hear you say

Let me explain. The common people liked the changes. reunion with their long lost brothers, Advanced technology, the clearing of the forests to allow farming. Not everyone liked it, but they were indeeed the exception.

it can also be argued that without the impierium the Lion certaintly wouldn't have existed and therefor wouldn't have helped destroy all the beasts.



Also, without the impierium mankind certaintly would have been doomed to a slow extinction among the stars. certaintly there wouldn't be any coordinated response to the Tyranids.

The Lion improved Caliban before the Emperor arrived. It's impossible to say what would have happened had he never come. But what is certain is that Caliban no longer exists.

It's accurate to say that humanity would have no chance against the Tyranids except united (loosely) in the Imperium. But that question has nothing to do with quality of life in either M31 or M42--except to point out a grimdark aphorism: for humanity to survive, humanity must be miserable.

Is it tonight already Dave? are you poring over your keyboard giggling like a maniac while we whet our lips in eager anticipation of what wonderous written masterpieces will optically assault us thus sending our already tout and undernourished brains into what can only be described 'a spin' :-)

nerdfest09 wrote:Is it tonight already Dave? are you poring over your keyboard giggling like a maniac while we whet our lips in eager anticipation of what wonderous written masterpieces will optically assault us thus sending our already tout and undernourished brains into what can only be described 'a spin' :-)

I like this mental image... i also like elipses but that's got nothing to do with anything... or has it?

Hmmm maybe it has got something to do with it... I also like eclipses...just not the movie eclipse, I would have to beat myself to death with a damp kitten if that were the case (no offence to kittens) oh and I like rainbows too :-)

Manchu wrote:The Lion improved Caliban before the Emperor arrived. It's impossible to say what would have happened had he never come. But what is certain is that Caliban no longer exists.

It's accurate to say that humanity would have no chance against the Tyranids except united (loosely) in the Imperium. But that question has nothing to do with quality of life in either M31 or M42--except to point out a grimdark aphorism: for humanity to survive, humanity must be miserable.

Well, Caliban being destroyed had nothing to do with the Impierium(except for the obvious point that if the great Crusade never happened then it wouldnt have gotton blown up)

it was a big misunderstanding between Luthor and the Lion.


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and yes, i belive squaler and misery is infinitly preferable to extinction.

at least there are ways out of the misery

nerdfest09 wrote:Hmmm maybe it has got something to do with it... I also like eclipses...just not the movie eclipse, I would have to beat myself to death with a damp kitten if that were the case (no offence to kittens) oh and I like rainbows too :-)

Elipse: The dot dot dot or ... not Eclipse very different although still awesome (The moon/sun thing not the movie)

The lion didnt improve Caliban. He thought he was, but in the long term killing all the beast was a bad idea, the Knights Lupus had the right idea.

The knights of luipis were being selfish.

they wanted the ways of Aristocracy and nobility to remain.

them above the peasents, protecting them from the beasts.

But didn't killing the beasts make the taint on Caliban worse?

1) I'm glad Just Dave is over in the UK, as that means his 'night' is my 'early afternoon' - yeah!

2) Guys, seriously, take the off topic discussion to a different thread. There's lots of good background discussion going on here, it just isn't relevant to this particular thread, mostly!

They were simply symptoms of the Evil.

whether their presense simply was a healthy way for the evil power to vent itself we will never know.

We'll probably find out in the next HH book about DA.

Kurze for no.1

Corax FTW

I'm gonna do the insane... and agree with Ediin

Kurze for no.1

Kurze or Corax, Kurze or Corax, odds on Corax are six to one, six to one on Corax, odds on Kurze are three to one, three to one on Kurze, place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!

Betting opens at twenty widgets!

Widgets?




Soooo.........................Corax

SaintHazard wrote:Kurze or Corax, Kurze or Corax, odds on Corax are six to one, six to one on Corax, odds on Kurze are three to one, three to one on Kurze, place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!

Betting opens at twenty widgets!

Do you accept wotzits or gubbins?

Curze. Because Corax is mostly a gimmick, and a recent one at that (thanks, Gav). I do admire his freedom-fighting in the days before daddy came around. Even so, Corax is a poor man's Curze.

People have postulated that Dave is a rabid fan of this or that but it seems the real key to his taste is . . . Batman.

So, if it IS Batman, you've got to go Corax, as Corax is Good 40K Batman and Curze is Evil 40K Batman.

Plus, those Bat-Wing Helmets?

Pants.

I'm currently working on the 'final product', however remember what happened last time assumptions about me were made...

Alpharius wrote:So, if it IS Batman, you've got to go Corax, as Corax is Good 40K Batman and Curze is Evil 40K Batman.

Plus, those Bat-Wing Helmets?

Pants.

No they're definatly helmets...

I lol'd at that...

I'm glad

5.1st: Now you see me, now you don't!

In at number 5.1, it's Omegon!

Behind Alpharius, but still here. Not in the right place or at the right time. He's sneaky like that. Very sneaky.
Is it in-fact Omegon in 5.1st actually?! Or is this Alpharius and the previous one was Omegon? Are you even seeing this? Are you even reading this? Do you even know what a rhetorical question is?
Or, on the other hand? Am I using this as a delaying tactic to keep hungry dakkites at bay whilst I finish off Kurze and Corax?

Who knows? Who nose? Who noes?

Damn your delaying tactic!

Effective though

@Alpahrius: How dare you! Scaly britches!

Dave! post something quickly before we all get hungry on this thread and make fruit salad out of your avatar!

Pineapple Wings!
Banana Bacon!
Lemon Breast!
...
I'm hungry now...

I'm sorry guys but you wouldn't believe how long this is taking me, I'm not even sure on who is actually first.
It will without doubt be done within the hour, but by that time I'm gonna have one helluva head-ache and not in the faking no-sex-for-you-tonight way!

Anyways, I'm struggling, but I'm slogging through it and it will be done. promise.
Otherwise, it's going to be canned fruit for all!

I like canned fruit but i think i'll settle for you doing the last 2 rankings...

Hey JD, PERFECTION can not be rushed... (just ask me, I'll tell you!)

Gitsplitta wrote:Hey JD, PERFECTION can not be rushed... (just ask me, I'll tell you!)

Surely you don't have kids!

Perfection? no time pressure, just quality then?!

purplefood wrote:I like canned fruit but i think i'll settle for you doing the last 2 rankings...

The rankings has a better sell-by date too!

Just Dave wrote:5.1st: Now you see me, now you don't!

In at number 5.1, it's Omegon!

Behind Alpharius, but still here. Not in the right place or at the right time. He's sneaky like that. Very sneaky.
Is it in-fact Omegon in 5.1st actually?! Or is this Alpharius and the previous one was Omegon? Are you even seeing this? Are you even reading this? Do you even know what a rhetorical question is?
Or, on the other hand? Am I using this as a delaying tactic to keep hungry dakkites at bay whilst I finish off Kurze and Corax?

Who knows? Who nose? Who noes?

I, as the kids like to say, LOL'd.

Also, JD dodged a bullet with this one!

No matter what happens, he won't get banned!

(As long as Corax is #1.)

2nd: The Dark Knight

Yep, in 2nd place it's Konrad Curze, The Night Haunter, The Dark Knight. He was until just tonight going to be first, but things never entirely go his way, eh?

Compared and mocked by many as Batman in space, however, despite me not being a comic-book person, what's wrong with that? I think we can all agree, Batman is cool! Have you seen The Dark Knight?! He's one nasty but heroic bad-ass! Curze is, in many ways, the mirror of this. I for one respect him for this similarity.

So many have established from this thread that ultimately I like someone who does the right thing, stands up for the innocent and against tyrants. Also, some-one who is ultimately cool, deadly, fearsome and most of all, has character. Kurze has all of this (OK, most) in bags!
Fearsome? Hell yes. Deadly? Ask Dorn. Character? You tell me what he would be thinking. Cool? Batman in power armour; most definitely.
Stands up for the innocent and against tyrants? A 0% crime rate says yes. Does the right thing? Well, it's not the forces of the Imperium that crippled the Night Lords, let me put it that way.

He went along a rocky road, he struggled and he messed up, but Curze ultimately did the right thing and redeemed himself in death. After all, death is nothing compared to vindication. Curze helped show the tyranny of the Imperium, allowed the death of a traitor Primarch and crippled the Night Lords.

The story of The Night Haunter is one of redemption, brutality and criminality. Raised on a world of criminals, the Night Haunter quickly became a vigilante, terrorising those who terrorized the innocent. He became righteous and heroic, although he didn't do it in the prettiest or least violent manner, he reduced the crime to nearly 0%. The citizens became incredibly efficient and honest, although they feared him, they respected and loved him. He was benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient and you know who else is supposed to be these things? God, that's who. Although his methods were harsh, they were also fair; he wasn't a tyrant like much of the Imperium and it's leaders, he was a leader and only punished those who did wrong. For which he gains massive respect in my eyes.
That's right, I just compared one incredibly dark fictional character to another incredibly bright fictional(?) character.

When leading his Legion, he continued to employ terror tactics and IMHO, rightly so. They could bring worlds to compliance without a single shot being fired or even turning up in same system. Imagine some-one with an intergalactic, highly lethal stink and that's not just mortarion. The Ultramarines would have to fight for every world the encountered, the Night Lords would often find worlds already in submission, scared at just the idea of the Night Lords. Corax could do a similar thing, except ironically Curze could do it with less blood-shed!

However, these tactics are even more fearsome when used in combat circumstances. If an utterly fearsome image - alongside the demi-god appearance - is combined with the physique and ability of the Adeptus Astartes then they truly could be nigh on unstoppable. Not only do they have the fearsome image, technology and ability, but they also have the velocity (akin to White Scars), so the Night Lords become a fast-moving sledge-hammer that you face with your eyes closed! As ever, Gulliman was largely wrong to criticize the Night Lords; although they don't conform, they are an utterly efficient and ruthless force, great for the intentions of the Great Crusade and possibly endorsed by the Emperor himself.
When it came to the Horus Heresy itself however, the Night Lords were let off their leash and unstoppable and merciless, murdering at will.

They refused to be governed by the Chaos gods however. We all know that the Chaos gods are manipulative pricks and seemingly Curze realised this and used them rather than have them use him. Right now, Abbadon's probably sitting in the background and taking notes.

At this point Curze has gone from vigilante to warlord to tyrant and is now brutally murdering anyone rather than just the immoral. This in itself - whilst not conforming to my and his usual ideals - is still cool and malevolent. Whilst not heroic as I'd prefer him to be, this is still very cool and - as a villian - likeable. See Mortarion's entry for more details. Even in corruption, Curze is cool!

So Kurze has gone from uber-cool, to OK, to uber-cool again and just when he couldn't get any cooler in my eyes, he does the right thing again. He seeks to redeem himself and punish the corrupt, redeeming himself in my eyes and making him 'coolest' of all the Primarchs. Curze sees the corruption within his Legion, he sees the source and he eliminates it. As ever, not through any ordinary or pleasant means, but he prevented the spread of corruption within his Legion and destroyed a world consisting of mainly criminals. I'm not saying he did the right thing, he destroyed a planet and it's inhabitants. However, he did arguably save the inhabitants of Nostramo from a life of misery and he stopped the spread of corruption within his Legion, crippling a traitor Legion and benefiting humanity.

Finally, in the list of all things cool about the Night Haunter; he let himself die, which doesn't sound as good as it actually was. He died, however, for the right reasons, not for a cause he didn't believe in like Alpharius may have, not like a idiot like Ferrus Manus, but for vindication and justice, something Kurze fought for for most of his life.
In the end at-least, Konrad Curze did the right thing for the right reasons. He was right, he had become what he had fought and hated, his legacy had crumbled with a broken world and Legion, whilst what he had fought for (the Imperium) was no more. To sacrifice himself for the right cause is something that only one other Primarch did; Sanguinius (and kind of Corax). However, as I said, Sanguinius didn't go on such a journey as Curze did. Sanguinius did not sacrifice himself for justice and redemption, Sanguinius did not cripple an entire Legion with his actions. Sanguinus still good, no doubt. However, so did Kurze and Kurze learnt a lot more as he did it. Obviously it's bad luck to criticise a dead guy, but Sanguinius is both a fictional character and an angel, I expect I'll be OK.

In at number two, missing out by a whisker and only being relegated to second this very [K]night, it's Konrad Curze, the true bad-ass and Dark Knight of Warhammer 40,000. The guy that could by all accounts be the Primarch with most character and depth, who should by any account be first. However, for me, Corax just pips him to the post.

Death is Nothing Compared To Vindication. Second Is Still A Whole Lot Compared To First.
Konrad Curze is in-fact the true tragic hero.



OK, so now you know the final result. I will however further emphasise how close this was; Until around the tenth ranking, Sanguinius was going to be first. Then until tonight, The Night Haunter was first. If you look back to approximately 8th place, you'll see me say that there I've just decided not to rank who I thought I would be in 8th. That person, that guy who was never originally intended to be 1st, who was originally intended to be 8th, is Corax.
It's an incredibly close run thing, however none of you, nor would I, have been pleased if I made it a joint first!


Anyways, my reasoning:



1st: A Bird In Hand Is Better Than One Overhead.

Finishing in 1st place, it's... Yes, you guessed it! Corax!

First off, he has style. Not the in-your-face manly "i'll kick all of your asses" style of Khan, but Corax seems to be a really good and cool guy. Firstly, Black and White is pretty swish. In normal clothing it could be a bit dull, but in heavy-duty nigh-on-invulnerable armour from the 30th millennium it looks cool! Similarly, I think we can all agree that Lightning Claws are pretty damn awesome and beaky helmets are pretty cool too!
Corax is a bit like Wolverine on acid, after therapy, on a black and white T.V and with a better hair cut. obviously.

However, not just in image does Corax appeal to me (in a manly "awesome!" rather than slightly less manly "oooh I would" way!) but also his persona. As excaliber has noted, I'm generally a nice person and therefore typically side with the good guys or simply nice people. Corax is without doubt both a good guy and a nice (albeit army-leading, enemy murdering and fictional) dude! Even before he was found by the Emperor he was doing good deeds for good people, supporting the people of Deliverance in over-coming their tyrannical leaders. But not through blood-shed, but through wits and tactics.
Screw you Gulliman and your little blue book, if a battle can be one without blood being drawn then that is a true victory! Corax and the Raven Guard fight with both intelligence and efficiency, not through sheer bloodshed, aggression or numbers. That is the true nature of a victory, Russ himself pointed out that a battle won through the cost of your own forces is not a battle won.
Angron is violent, Russ is brutal, Perturabo is relentless, Dorn is implacable, but Corax... Corax is smart.
The methodology of the Raven Guard and Corax is brutally (or not) efficient. If Corax can supplicate a human world with minimum loss of life, then that is a true victory for the Great Crusade. Whereas Curze can do it with fear and brutality, Corax does it with intelligence.

Also, in the novel Fulgrim, it says something similar to that Corax will only speak if what he says is worth saying. Now although that wouldn't make for great conversation, to me, that only adds further to Corax's dark, gothic but ultimately very cool and very noble image. Like Gordon Freeman but less ginger and less head-humping!
Much like myself - although with more balls and more brains and more muscle and more... well the list goes on... Anyway, Corax is much like me in that his heart is in the right place. Nothing he's done has been done out of pettiness (ahem. Perturabo), everything he's done has been done with good intentions. He's not perfect, no-one is. He didn't intend to create mutants, but he used them for a good cause and he did put them out of their apparent misery at the cost of a part of his morality. That is sacrifice, that is nobility and that is ultimately good intentions.
So he messed up, who doesn't?! If Superman had accidentally dropped someone he was flying to safety, you'd forgive him! So where's the love for Corax? If that were Corax, he would've dropped the person onto a criminal: two birds, one stone and one big splatter. He screwed up, but he did the right thing.
Kurze did it at a huge cost of life and with utter brutality, Corax did it with intelligence and heart. Well, technically two hearts but that's not something to complain about.
Sanguinus and Konrad Curze both sacrificed themselves for very good causes, however they didn't have to live with their sacrifices.

Some people claim Corax to be too Emo. I strongly disagree; an emo is someone who is both immature and almost tries to be sad. An emo gets upset over nothing and then does nothing about it. Corax got upset over the death of around 90% of his sons, the collapse of what he fought for and the death and fall of his brothers. Oh and an galaxy-wide war. However, he also tried to do something about it! You don't see emo's creating hulking great mutants to try and solves their problems! OK, so he messed up, but as with Birthday presents; it's the thought that counts!

When he met the Emperor, they spent two days talking about an unknown subject. Let's be honest, it was probably a bit more than "So Dad, how's mum?" I believe that Corax may have been questioning his intentions. Some Primarchs instantly swore fealty, whilst others demanded a test of arms (not arm-wrestle!), I reckon Corax tested the Emperor's intentions and beliefs rather than blindly swearing fealty. Even so, it adds just more mystery to the man. We all like a bit of secrecy and imagination requirements, just look at Alpharius. Corax is no different.
"As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door." Yeah, it's your long-lost daddy, he says hi and that he wants you to join him in a galactic crusade.

Finally, on my list of all things good about Corax, he has a good theme. Whereas some Primarchs are obviously themed around a very specific thing - eg. Angron/Angry or the outside themes like Lion'el Jonson and the poet of a similar name. Corax is themed around a poem by Edgar Allen Poe and - unlike some of the themes - this is smartly and subtly done. For example, Raven Guard is an obvious link yet a cool and suitable name, Corax is latin for raven, Deliverance is themed from the poem as are his last words of 'never more', his armour is jet black and his life is plagued by misery. These are all subtly done and actually add to, rather than detract from, his character. Think Angron, just not crap. And yes I do dislike that guy!

Corax is the kind of guy where you have to look below the surface to really appreciate and respect him. He's like some kick-ass black-adamantium-wrapped present full of goodness and killing. Like Shrek's onion, except Corax really will bring a tear to your eye.

If I could be ruled over by any Primarch, I'd want it to be Corax. He is ultimately a very knightly, righteous and well-meaning guy. He's not arrogant, he's not violent and he's not stupid. He's a genuinely nice guy and has genuinely nice intentions. He's the kind of guy you can respect and love. You can respect Curze, but at the same time you'd fear him like nothing else. He's also a well-meaning guy, but unlike Curze, he doesn't make a fire-work display out of a planet to be the a good person.

My favourite Primarch is now Corax. He's knightly, he's well-meaning, he's bad-ass, he's cool, he's possibly the smartest Primarch, he's flawed but he's such a good guy. He's a true demi-god, a leader and legend amongst men, but imperfect.
The raven isn't a symbol of misery any more. It's a symbol of ultimate well-meaning and of this thread, it always will be within the world. For-evermore.

Rounding off my celebration of Dakka and 1000 posts, Corax emerges victorious. In 1st Place and my favourite Primarch, it's Corax, Primarch of the Raven Guard.

It's been an absolute pleasure if a bit of a slog to get it done. I hope you have all enjoyed it and can understand my reasoning.

Hugs and Kisses, Dave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, now I don't get banned!

When i read the background to the primarchs i was suprised about how much of a d**k Guilliman was and also how cool both Alpharius and Kurze were they are definatly my favorites with Corax in third me thinks

Great Thread! I really liked your rankings and after reading the arguments behind them i agreed with most. A great read and a well thought out too.
Oh, and Corax is Ancient Greek for Crow. Latin is, i think, Corvus, or corvinus.

No peanuts for Ediin this time

Awsome thread, i've learnt loads more about the primarchs since reading these. Corax most of all.

Yay! Corax in first! (It used to be all caps, but I realized that wouldn't be smart )

Just Dave wrote:
Also, now I don't get banned!

Huzzah for that!

Cheers to Just Dave!

Awesome, awesome stuff that I was actually LOOKING FORWARD to reading!

Congrats!

Well done and keep up the good posts i also enjoyed the read. Also enjoyed the banter in between... kinda like the Peanut Gallery.

Bollocks!

And now, I shake the dust from my sandals.

Yay Corax. He is my favourite primarch too.

He definitely doesn't get the love he deserves.

Great job! i very much enjoyed your thread!

He'll get a lot more now with RAVEN'S FLIGHT, the Forge World Raven Guard stuff and, of course, THIS THREAD!

Dave, you magnificent bastard.

More threads like this will be expected. Hope you got some time on your hands!

If I didn't already have a marine chapter... I'd seriously consider Raven's Guard given your eloquent writing. Very well written JD, thanks for all your efforts over these past weeks.

Never has 1000 posts been better memorialized!

Just Dave, I believe you are one of the missing Primarchs. Only a Primarch could have accomplished such an amazing thread on DakkaDakka.

Just Dave for the win!

I think a round of applause is in order for Just Dave for this amazing thread

I loved this stuff thank you so much for doing it. I have been in suspense for the whole time. Also every rank is so well explained and just a good read.

That'll do JD, That'll do

Cookies all around

Man, really loved reading all this stuff.

Congrats for the amazing work here.

Yeah, congrats man. You took what I did, equalled it (easily), and from popular opinion bettered it by miles! But I'm not bitter at you-you've always been better at this Internet thing than me and I don't hold that against you. So the only question that remains now is-whose next to do one of these ?

Again, Internet high five.

LLF

I was wrong?

I don't care, because this was totally one of the most awesome threads I've ever read.

I need to figure what to do at 3k


probably not one of these threads, but something different

First, i've enjoyed a hot this thread awesome!

konst80hummel wrote:Great Thread! I really liked your rankings and after reading the arguments behind them i agreed with most. A great read and a well thought out too.
Oh, and Corax is Ancient Greek for Crow. Latin is, i think, Corvus, or corvinus.

i don't know Ancient Greek, but i can tell you about the full "scientific"(the latin one)name of the raven is "corvus corax".... think it coldly, Corvus doesn't sound really cool

and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Wooo hooo! I think I speak for everyone who has been following this...
thanks just dave, it's been an awesome read, guessing game, and perspective that, like you said, suffered no animosity at all, just antici... pation

Black Corsair wrote:and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Oh please do tell.

Thanks for the kind words everyone, if I wasn't so butch I'd be crying! I'm glad I could be of service and entertainment.
As labouring as it was at times, it's also been very enjoyable for me!

If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Pleasantly surprised their hasn't been too much disagreement so far as well...

Thanks guys and Fauntleroy for the inspiration!

Thoroughly Enjoyable! Has been a treat following it to its completion!

Nice stuff. I'm tempted to do something similar for my 2K and/or 17th Bday (whichever comes 1st! lol)

Was disappointed with Russ and Vulkan. I like Wolves, but I think Russ was a total spanker. The retcon about Horuse manipulating the whole "Arrest Magnus" slightly improved his image, considering prior to that it just portrayed Russ as too stupid to know the difference between "Fetch" and "kill".

Also Vulkan struck me as bland, like Ferrous Manus. I like the Iron Hands because they compulsively convert themselves into machines and they got Chaplain-Techmarines in 3rd edition, and while Ferrus did make some stupid mistakes, at least he has some depth over a ridiculously similar guy who's primary claims to fame is an obsession with fire... and being the token black guy...

Omegon Is awesome... and probably behind you right now... Alpharius Is Awesome... and probably in front of you right now...

Thanks Just Dave, this was a really great thread which highlights all the good things about Dakka and W40k. I have really enjoyed reading it and I might just do a similair thing when I get to 1000 posts... Maybe

Eyclonus wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Oh please do tell.

okay....

Perturabo souns nearly as "Porturabo" by vocal sound and the translation of that name is Por(By)-tu(your)-rabo(Dick, if you take the bad meaning, "rabo" has many other meanings) anyway "Per" is the same of "Por" bun in a Spanish dialect, and means the same

Just Dave wrote:Thanks for the kind words everyone, if I wasn't so butch I'd be crying!

Don't lie to us, Dave. You're sitting there at your computer, blubbering like a pansy, and we all know it.

Just Dave wrote:If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Do it, you big blubbering pansy!

SaintHazard wrote:

Just Dave wrote:If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Do it, you big blubbering pansy!

I second this. And I will probably count it as the real result. On second thought, even eighth is too high for Corax. (This thread has actually made me dislike him.)

Manchu wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Just Dave wrote:If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Do it, you big blubbering pansy!

I second this. And I will probably count it as the real result. On second thought, even eighth is too high for Corax. (This thread has actually made me dislike him.)

Why's that?

Maybe one could do something similar at postcount 5555 ?

I've got some ideas cooking for my 100th thread. It will be a paean to the glory of Chaos. You know, right up your alley.

Great stuff Just Dave.

I don't know what else to say!

Black Corsair wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Oh please do tell.

okay....

Perturabo souns nearly as "Porturabo" by vocal sound and the translation of that name is Por(By)-tu(your)-rabo(Dick, if you take the bad meaning, "rabo" has many other meanings) anyway "Per" is the same of "Por" bun in a Spanish dialect, and means the same

and considering what he did it fits.


you can't say GW didn't pick unfitting names

Manchu wrote:I've got some ideas cooking for my 100th thread. It will be a paean to the glory of Chaos. You know, right up your alley.

Paean ?

Something to eat?

Shouldn't you be happy with your 'actual' primarch at N°2 ?
Mind you, glory of chaos is irrelevant, vindication is all that matters.....

Forgot to laud OP..

Just Dave,


Next dakkaite to try a 1k celebration has a real challenge.

Dave, when I get to 1000 posts, I'm going to do the same.
However, since I probably won't have such good arguments for my choices, I'll probably stir up a massive gak-storm.

this was a ton of fun to read!

Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Black Corsair wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Oh please do tell.

okay....

Perturabo souns nearly as "Porturabo" by vocal sound and the translation of that name is Por(By)-tu(your)-rabo(Dick, if you take the bad meaning, "rabo" has many other meanings) anyway "Per" is the same of "Por" bun in a Spanish dialect, and means the same

How different can be local slangs xD

For me at worst, he was Perturbado (disturbed).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Er, not quite!

He was 'seen' a bit after that!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Spoiler:

btw you forgot to mention he has the superpower of invisibilty!!!

VERY good point there too, though a bit of a spoiler from RAVEN'S FLIGHT, so I've spoiler-ized it for you!

Dark wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:and better not to know how bad sounds some Primarch names.... especially Perturabo... in Spanish

Oh please do tell.

okay....

Perturabo souns nearly as "Porturabo" by vocal sound and the translation of that name is Por(By)-tu(your)-rabo(Dick, if you take the bad meaning, "rabo" has many other meanings) anyway "Per" is the same of "Por" bun in a Spanish dialect, and means the same

How different can be local slangs xD

For me at worst, he was Perturbado (disturbed).

That's fitting too!

Dear God-Emperor!

Eyclonus wrote:Was disappointed with Russ and Vulkan. I like Wolves, but I think Russ was a total spanker. The retcon about Horuse manipulating the whole "Arrest Magnus" slightly improved his image, considering prior to that it just portrayed Russ as too stupid to know the difference between "Fetch" and "kill".

Also Vulkan struck me as bland, like Ferrous Manus. I like the Iron Hands because they compulsively convert themselves into machines and they got Chaplain-Techmarines in 3rd edition, and while Ferrus did make some stupid mistakes, at least he has some depth over a ridiculously similar guy who's primary claims to fame is an obsession with fire... and being the token black guy...

Omegon Is awesome... and probably behind you right now... Alpharius Is Awesome... and probably in front of you right now...

That's true, Vulkan wasn't particularly original, but what he had was cool IMHO. If this were about the Legions rather than the Primarchs then the Iron Hands would have been much further up the list as you so rightly desire, however I found Ferrus to be a bit of a moron.

SaintHazard wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Thanks for the kind words everyone, if I wasn't so butch I'd be crying!

Don't lie to us, Dave. You're sitting there at your computer, blubbering like a pansy, and we all know it.

Just Dave wrote:If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Do it, you big blubbering pansy!

Yes sir!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Spoiler:

btw you forgot to mention he has the superpower of invisibilty!!!

Good point, I knew I'd forgot something! See, potential you-know-what is even more UBER COOL! It's not entirely the case I don't think, but it's still pretty awesome and unique to a primarch!
I fully acknowledge Corax wasn't the best Primarch or got the most coverage, however he is my favourite.

So where is this original list?

it's coming, it's coming, sheesh!

Where's your reasoning for disliking Corax also, please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK then ladies and gentlemen, here is what my original intentions were and how the rankings changed, due to further research (Khan, Corax), peer pressure (Morty) or various other factors.

Pre-Ranking Intentions: ------------ Final Ranking:
18th: Angron ------------ (0) ------------ Angron
17th: Ferrus Manus ------------ (0) ------------ Ferrus
16th: Jonson ------------ (+1) ------------ Fulgrim
15th: Fulgrim ------------ (-1) ------------ Jonson
14th: Perturabo ------------ (0) ------------ Perturabo
13th: Gulliman ------------ (+1) ------------ Russ
12th: Khan ------------ (+3) ------------ Gulliman
11th: Russ ------------ (-2) ------------ Lorgar
10th: Vulkan ------------ (0) ------------ Vulkan
9th: Lorgar ------------ (-2) ------------ Khan
8th: Mortarion ------------ (+4) ------------ Horus
7th: Corax ------------ (+6) ------------ Magnus
6th: Magnus ------------ (-1) ------------ Dorn
5th: Dorn ------------ (-1) ------------ Alpharius
4th: Alpharius ------------ (-1) ------------ Mortarion
3rd: Horus ------------ (-5) ------------ Sanguinius
2nd: Konrad Curze ------------ (0) ------------ Kurze
1st: Sanguinius ------------ (-1) ------------ Corax

Just Dave wrote:Where's your reasoning for disliking Corax also, please?

Manchu wrote:Curze. Because Corax is mostly a gimmick, and a recent one at that (thanks, Gav). I do admire his freedom-fighting in the days before daddy came around. Even so, Corax is a poor man's Curze.

It's not that I don't like him. It's just that compared to Magnus, Russ, Curze, even Mortarion . . . well, there's nothing to like. It's funny that you put Angron in last for lack of substance and then gave first to Corax.

Without re-writing your entire list, I think Sanguinius is the obvious Number One. (And he's not my personal favorite or anything.)

Sanguinius @ NO.1?

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Er, not quite!

He was 'seen' a bit after that!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Spoiler:

btw you forgot to mention he has the superpower of invisibilty!!!

VERY good point there too, though a bit of a spoiler from RAVEN'S FLIGHT, so I've spoiler-ized it for you!

Yes, thanks. I guess I figured that only 17 people listened to Raven's Flight and it's better to just tell people.
What did Mr. Corax get up to after Istvaan besides mutilating his own Legion? BTW you glossed over that to Dave! I put that one down on the negetive side of the ledger for him.

I like the new list better than the old list.

Sanguinius was cool, but Corax is cooler.

And I'm not even going to try to justify that decision, because I am nowhere near as good or entertaining a writer as Dave.

SaintHazard wrote:And I'm not even going to try to justify that decision, because said task is impossible

Fix'd.

Well, I guess you could say that you like black over red.

Once again I have to say:

Dave,

Just Dave wrote:

Eyclonus wrote:Was disappointed with Russ and Vulkan. I like Wolves, but I think Russ was a total spanker. The retcon about Horuse manipulating the whole "Arrest Magnus" slightly improved his image, considering prior to that it just portrayed Russ as too stupid to know the difference between "Fetch" and "kill".

Also Vulkan struck me as bland, like Ferrous Manus. I like the Iron Hands because they compulsively convert themselves into machines and they got Chaplain-Techmarines in 3rd edition, and while Ferrus did make some stupid mistakes, at least he has some depth over a ridiculously similar guy who's primary claims to fame is an obsession with fire... and being the token black guy...

Omegon Is awesome... and probably behind you right now... Alpharius Is Awesome... and probably in front of you right now...

That's true, Vulkan wasn't particularly original, but what he had was cool IMHO. If this were about the Legions rather than the Primarchs then the Iron Hands would have been much further up the list as you so rightly desire, however I found Ferrus to be a bit of a moron.

SaintHazard wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Thanks for the kind words everyone, if I wasn't so butch I'd be crying!

Don't lie to us, Dave. You're sitting there at your computer, blubbering like a pansy, and we all know it.

Just Dave wrote:If desired I will also post what I originally intended the rankings to be so you can see the difference?

Do it, you big blubbering pansy!

Yes sir!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Spoiler:

btw you forgot to mention he has the superpower of invisibilty!!!

Good point, I knew I'd forgot something! See, potential you-know-what is even more UBER COOL! It's not entirely the case I don't think, but it's still pretty awesome and unique to a primarch!
I fully acknowledge Corax wasn't the best Primarch or got the most coverage, however he is my favourite.

Well if its a list of your favorites then can't really say much. Personally I think you should have stuck to your guns at put Sanguinus #1. He has all the qualities you've been touting and was at the big show on earth. No one can argue he was an ancillary character like Corax. I feel like you caved to peer pressure in this modern anti-Blood Angels climate. Oh well.

I'm thinkin' Manchu needs to chill a bit.

Cool your balls dude, it's all personal preference in the end.

@ SaintHazard

BTW dude, what happened to Rasczak's roughnecks?

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Where's your reasoning for disliking Corax also, please?

Manchu wrote:Curze. Because Corax is mostly a gimmick, and a recent one at that (thanks, Gav). I do admire his freedom-fighting in the days before daddy came around. Even so, Corax is a poor man's Curze.

It's not that I don't like him. It's just that compared to Magnus, Russ, Curze, even Mortarion . . . well, there's nothing to like. It's funny that you put Angron in last for lack of substance and then gave first to Corax.

Without re-writing your entire list, I think Sanguinius is the obvious Number One. (And he's not my personal favorite or anything.)

I fully admit, Sanguinus does have all the traits that I've been touting and that he is the obvious number one, but he hasn't been on such a 'journey' or struggled as much as Corax or Curze.
I really think Corax does have substance and tried to say that in the rankings. Angron's only real traits were blood-thirst and anger, Corax was loyal and honourable, his Legion had more character than just killing, he was blatantly smart, kind and compassionate, he was a good leader and actually showed some real, justified emotion.
His freedom fighting days were good, and he still fought for justice afterwards. Angron's Legion would descend upon a planet and maim everything that even came close to standing in his way. Corax would elimate the enemies vital resources, leadership and key points and force them into submission with the minimum of collateral damage. Corax fought as the great crusade should be fought, he didn't get bossed around by the Emperor or Horus, he stood up for what was right and always fought for the side of righteousness and justice. For that I ultimately respect and like him.
What I find there is to like in Corax is his nobility and his story, both things I desired from a Primarch and things that Corax delivered IMHO.

No one is perfect, except Sanguinius. Corax however truly tries to do what is right rather than automatically achieves it.
'Best' Primarch = Sanguinius. 'Favourite' Primarch = Corax...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Somewhere along the line The Raven Guard and Raptors became some of my favorite chapters. Probably because they seem so reasonable and relatable. However, I'm not convinced of him being the "best" primarch ever. You could easily argue he's just a side character in the whole 40k history. Got punked at Istvaan and was never seen again (but give him credit for surviving which is more than can be said for Mannus).

Er, not quite!

He was 'seen' a bit after that!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Didn't know about how he sat down with the Emperor for two days but I find that very interesting. It reinforces that he was a reasonable man and a thinker which doesn't seem to apply to alot of the other primarches who blindly follow the Emperor or Evil gods.

Spoiler:

btw you forgot to mention he has the superpower of invisibilty!!!

VERY good point there too, though a bit of a spoiler from RAVEN'S FLIGHT, so I've spoiler-ized it for you!

Yes, thanks. I guess I figured that only 17 people listened to Raven's Flight and it's better to just tell people.
What did Mr. Corax get up to after Istvaan besides mutilating his own Legion? BTW you glossed over that to Dave! I put that one down on the negetive side of the ledger for him.

haha, in fact I haven't listened to Raven's Flight! As for the whole minor issue of an army of ravenous monsters, I may have glossed over it, but I still accepted its existence. For me, it was a positive. Not his actions, but his intentions and his redemption.

SaintHazard wrote:I like the new list better than the old list.

Sanguinius was cool, but Corax is cooler.

And I'm not even going to try to justify that decision, because I am nowhere near as good or entertaining a writer as Dave.

awww, shucks. It really is that close between the pair for me, but Corax is my preferred choice and I'm still sticking by that...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well if its a list of your favorites then can't really say much. Personally I think you should have stuck to your guns at put Sanguinus #1. He has all the qualities you've been touting and was at the big show on earth. No one can argue he was an ancillary character like Corax. I feel like you caved to peer pressure in this modern anti-Blood Angels climate. Oh well.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I was really unsure as to who to make 1st and now I'm having even more second (third) thoughts about it...
In my defence, I don't think it was peer pressure that influenced my Sanguinius decision, he's possibly the most popular primarch. I do think peer pressure influenced my Mortarion placement in retrospect however...
For me Sanguinius was ultimately the 'best' Primarch and as you said, he really had all of the qualities I've been touting, but Corax JUST beat him because whereas these come naturally to Sanguinius, Corax has to work at them and truly try, as sad as that sounds. Sanguinius is a hero. Corax is a tragic hero.

I'd like to say, I'm not at all refuting other peoples opinions (other than Corax doesn't have character!!), I'm just trying to justify my reasons for where I ranked them, by all means criticize or support, either is welcome! Thanks guys!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
By all means Manchu, you don't have to calm down IMHO. It's your personal preference, so long as you have reasoning behind it I will try to listen and either change or stand up for my beliefs.

sometimes Dakka's quote function gets really messed up. I'm the one that said "Well if its a list of your favorites then can't really say much. Personally I think you should have stuck to your guns at put Sanguinus #1. He has all the qualities you've been touting and was at the big show on earth. No one can argue he was an ancillary character like Corax. I feel like you caved to peer pressure in this modern anti-Blood Angels climate. Oh well."
I've had a lot of trouble getting it work lately too.

Nope, that was me, sorry! I shortened it down and put the wrong name there. I've edited it now though, thanks for the comments.

Ediin wrote:@ SaintHazard

BTW dude, what happened to Rasczak's roughnecks?

It was a super cool idea, making lists for Rasczak's Roughnecks and Planet "P", but financial pressures keep me from buying any Tyranid or IG models for a good long while.

And honestly my real honest-to-Kahless lists that I actually plan to field have priority.

And I was running out of signature space.

Because I have too many goddamn lists.

I still have those two lists, though! Someday. Someday.

Just Dave wrote:Angron's only real traits were blood-thirst and anger

Well, that's a gross over-simplification. I guess my point is that you over-simplify Angron (and it's easy to do) why not also Corax (just as easy)? After all, Angron was the only Primarch who was enslaved--that's pretty damn interesting by itself. And like Corax, Angron was a sort of freedom fighter who struggled to "do what was right" according to the culture of the gakky planet he ended up on. Of all the Primarchs, the Emperor was toughest on Angron. The Emperor basically showed his "true colors" as a tyrant (as per Curze's vision) by forcing Angron to join the Great Crusade against his will. His story, like Curze's, proves that "justice" and "goodness" are not so simple in the GrimDark. By comparison, Corax's background is pretty cut and dry. He's an obvious good guy in a shallow oppressed v. oppressor story. He confronts no tough choices much less being having his decisions made for him.

I get that it's a "favorite" versus "best" choice. Just like someone can arbitrarily like black more than red. What I'm saying is that I am not convinced by your reasoning--unlike some of the other entries, which were very compelling. The reasoning just doesn't bear out: I'm having trouble seeing how one gimmikcy, underdevloped character can be rated in last place and another gimmicky, underdeveloped character can be first.

His reasoning could be that "bananas are yellow, therefore Angron is a doof," and I'd accept it.

The point is, Dave has written a very interesting and entertaining series of posts, and there's no point in arguing about it, because at the end of the day, if you win an internet argument about which fictional character is the best, you've gained exactly nothing.

Just calm your balls and enjoy the ride, man.

Or do I need to start quoting MST3K at you?

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, Dave has written a very interesting and entertaining series of posts, and there's no point in arguing about it, because at the end of the day, if you win an internet argument about which fictional character is the best, you've gained exactly nothing.

This is a forum and not a blog, Sir Hazard. If you want to read entertaining articles without being bothered by dialog, feel free to ride your white horse to Bell of Lost Souls.

Manchu wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, Dave has written a very interesting and entertaining series of posts, and there's no point in arguing about it, because at the end of the day, if you win an internet argument about which fictional character is the best, you've gained exactly nothing.

This is a forum and not a blog, Sir Hazard. If you want to read entertaining articles without being bothered by dialog, feel free to ride your white horse to Bell of Lost Souls.

You're right. You win.












Look at what you gained!









(nothing)

@SaintHazard: Not every discussion is an argument. You don't have to "win" in order to get something out of discussing your interests. Dave's mind isn't going to change, I'd guess. But I obviously like him enough to care about his opinions and how he comes to them. Given our other discussions on Dakka, I get the feeling that he gives me the same respect. If you don't want to participate in this dialog in a constructive way, so much the worse for all of us as you might have something interesting to add. But I can assure you that me responding to Dave's question about why I don't agree with him isn't going to emotionally traumatize him or force him into my way of thinking.

Argument.

ar·gu·ment
/ˈɑrgyəmənt/
[ahr-gyuh-muhnt]

–noun
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate.



You sure?

I meant to emphasize the connotative value of hostility. Let me rephrase: not every argument has to be a fight. Although what I really want to say is, people can engage in meaningful discussions without eventually adopting each other's positions. I hope that is more clear.

It was clear before, at this point it's just fun to watch you take me seriously.

holy Troll alert.

Manchu wrote:@SaintHazard: Not every discussion is an argument. You don't have to "win" in order to get something out of discussing your interests. Dave's mind isn't going to change, I'd guess. But I obviously like him enough to care about his opinions and how he comes to them. Given our other discussions on Dakka, I get the feeling that he gives me the same respect. If you don't want to participate in this dialog in a constructive way, so much the worse for all of us as you might have something interesting to add. But I can assure you that me responding to Dave's question about why I don't agree with him isn't going to emotionally traumatize him or force him into my way of thinking.

Actually, I have been emotionally traumatised by this and I'd like you to apologise. Corax was actually my father and I can't bear you picking on him after he fought so hard for his countr--- galaxy.
But yeah, sorry Saint, but I'm happy to DISCUSS/DEBATE (not argue) the various characters of the Primarchs. I respect Manchu and his opinion and so long as me and him keep it civil I'm happy to continue said discussion...

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Angron's only real traits were blood-thirst and anger

Well, that's a gross over-simplification. I guess my point is that you over-simplify Angron (and it's easy to do) why not also Corax (just as easy)? After all, Angron was the only Primarch who was enslaved--that's pretty damn interesting by itself. And like Corax, Angron was a sort of freedom fighter who struggled to "do what was right" according to the culture of the gakky planet he ended up on. Of all the Primarchs, the Emperor was toughest on Angron. The Emperor basically showed his "true colors" as a tyrant (as per Curze's vision) by forcing Angron to join the Great Crusade against his will. His story, like Curze's, proves that "justice" and "goodness" are not so simple in the GrimDark. By comparison, Corax's background is pretty cut and dry. He's an obvious good guy in a shallow oppressed v. oppressor story. He confronts no tough choices much less being having his decisions made for him.

I get that it's a "favorite" versus "best" choice. Just like someone can arbitrarily like black more than red. What I'm saying is that I am not convinced by your reasoning--unlike some of the other entries, which were very compelling. The reasoning just doesn't bear out: I'm having trouble seeing how one gimmikcy, underdevloped character can be rated in last place and another gimmicky, underdeveloped character can be first.

I admit, that is an over-simplification, but that it is at the very core of Angron's character, that or issues of neglect. Conversely I believe at the heart of Corax's character is nobility and intelligence.
It was a gross simplification of Angron, although I believe you have similarly simplified Corax...

Angron was enslaved and it sucks of course and I also truly believe the Emperor was wrong in forcing him to join the crusade, something I maybe didn't give enough credit too in the ranking, although I still believe Angron deserves last place. Conversely however, maybe the Emperor was right to take him away from his planet? He freed him from slavery and almost-certain death. If that is the case then Angron was ultimately hating the guy that freed him from slavery and his oppressors. The slavery isn't the worst thing however, relatively no Primarch had it easy: Russ was on 1 of the deadliest planets known to man, Kurze and Corax were both in crime-ridden degenerate planets, Mortarion had to fight all his life and against his 'father' and the list goes on.
I'm not saying Angron didn't have it bad, of course he did. However many primarchs also did (maybe not to the same extent however) but they didn't turn into bloody psychopaths because of it.
The forced into service by the Emperor is v. bad, hell yeah and that's the best part of the story about Angron, however the slavery thing isn't that bad IMHO. Hell I can't believe I just said those words!

However, Angron gets anger-inducing augmentations etc. in his slavery, helping him become a bloody maniac. However, he then introduces these augmentations into his Legion - against his fathers advice - and makes them all psychopaths as-well! To me at least, that screams of stupidity. He forced an aspect of his slavery onto his sons.
He himself turned his Legion into raging psychopaths and made them seen with disdain by other Legions. The Raven Guard fought in the method in which the Great Crusade should be, the World Eaters just killed without remorse or real reason IMO.

I don't believe Angron did anything to help himself or his appearance. He hated his father who may or may not have been right to help him, he turned his Legion into psychopaths. He never forgave his father and burned half the galaxy because of it! He screwed up much of Horus' plans on Istvaan III because he's an angry nutter and he was rightly seen as a weapon/tool rather than a leader.
With his actions I can't respect him or his behaviour IMHO. I know what you mean about over-simplification, but he's little more than angry. He let anger dictate him all his life, turn him into a pawn (OK, Rook) of Chaos and Horus and it has ultimately been at the heart of all his actions.

Indeed.

Knock it off guys...

Awesome job Dave... I'm still coming out of shock... ow...

Really, a truly amazing thread. While I was dissapointed that Russ ranked low, I completely agree with the reasons. Another reason I play the SW for the chapter, not the primarch!

Jeez... I'm not even close to 1000 posts...

Thanks man, appreciate it! When I was younger I used to think Russ was amazing and like the bestest primarch evarrr, now I realise he was a bit of a prick but has created the bestest chapter evarrr!

Cheers Asgeirr

Hooray! I got recognized on someone else's thread!

Seriously though, I appreciate Corax and CUrze getting 1 and 2- may the best primarch win, And I guess it was them! (They both rock...)

Man, I was readind over this thing, and I turned into a troll fest about a page ago! Sorry Manchu, but I have to take SaintHazards side on this... unless you were mocking him. In that case, I would just be confused, lower intelligence being that I am... You two should just hug and make up.

awsome result.

Just Dave wrote:Actually, I have been emotionally traumatised by this and I'd like you to apologise. Corax was actually my father and I can't bear you picking on him after he fought so hard for his countr--- galaxy.

I will never apologize, for you see Angron is my father . . . er, no, not really.

Don't get me wrong about Angron. I would also put him in last place. It's just that he'd have to compete pretty hard against Corax for that spot.

Dave wrote:Conversely I believe at the heart of Corax's character is nobility and intelligence.

That could very well be BUT there isn't much to back that up. These things could be inferred from the vagaries of his background. But by that standard, Angron may have been a soulful romantic deeply devoted to the downtrodden of his oppressed world and enraged to be dragged away from this first love in gilded chains by his johnny-come-lately dad. Or he could just be real angry. Just like Corax is real quiet.

Manchu wrote:But by that standard, Angron may have been a soulful romantic deeply devoted to the downtrodden of his oppressed world and enraged to be dragged away from this first love in gilded chains by his johnny-come-lately dad.

Even you have to admit that conclusion would be a VERY tenuous one indeed.

Should the Emperor have slowed down a bit and let Angron do what he 'needed' to do?

Maybe!

Manchu wrote: Or he could just be real angry.

Yes!

Well, again, it isn't really about Angron. Like Corax, Angron is pretty one dimensional. They both have potential for further development--i.e., development that has not yet occurred.

They've both gotten a bit more via the HH series, actually.

It wll be good to see more, especially on Ferrus Manus, Jaghati, and Corax. Angron got a whole short story in Tales of Heresy, but it didn't do much to flesh him out. (He basically beats some of his War Hounds to death before calming down a bit and renaming them the World Eaters.) I'd like to see a whole book devoted to Guilliman, however. I suppose we will, given the whole Word Bearer invasion of Ultramar.

I think we're done with Ferrus, sadly.

Corax, according to A D-B, is in THE FIRST HERETIC, never mind RAVEN'S FLIGHT!

The Khan will get some love, especially as we near the end, if nowhere else.

Roboute Guilliman's should be interesting - I'm really looking forward to this one too!

I really wish they would do one whole book per Primarch, detailing their early years on their home planets, up to meeting the Emperor and maybe some early Crusade stuff.

Don't think it will happen though...

That would be great. Although I'm not a big fan otherwise, I think a book like that about the Lion would be especially great.

We may not have seen the last of Ferrus Manus. The HH series is being told in a non-chronological, "three-dimensional," or some-such, way. So we can expect the unexpected.

Yeah, I expect for the most part Ferrus is done, as Alphy said. Although it could be interesting to see more around (before and after) his death. Particularly as the Iron Hands were still largely intact after-wards but didn't take any more part in the crusade!

But yeah, I also saw that Corax was in The First Heretic and IIRC he even fights Lorgar!
Unlike some Primarchs *cough* Angron *cough* Corax actually has some character which can be written and developed.

Providing they're done better than the Battle of the Abyssmal novel, the role of the Ultramarines could be REALLY interesting as it's all there to be made, rather than followed. Gulliman also features in The 1st Heretic also...
Obviously its got to get past the ultramarine haters

I don't personally believe one book per Primarch will really work in that way IMHO. I think most, maybe each, Primarch should have a novel centred around them, but it's more about the heresy rather than the crusade IMHO...

. . . except for Dark Angels.

Yeah and that worked well!

Emphasis on the cackling Ork face, mm?

It'd be better if it was it's own series. Just like how there is no Night Haunter novel. Yet.

I don't think we're done with Ferrus because he's 'dead' in the HH series - I think we're done with him because he got a lot of 'face time' in Fulgrim.

There was an old bit of fluff about Ferrus lurking out on Mars waiting for the right gears to replace his limbs, Fulgrim didn't give us any reason to pay attention to that, whereas I though the Flight of The Eisenstein tied up the loose threads regarding Garro nicely.

I agree with a new series of books that are about the crusade that center around a primarch per book.

Eyclonus wrote:. . . whereas I though the Flight of The Eisenstein tied up the loose threads regarding Garro nicely.

And yet Garro has two audiobooks on the way? But I agree wholheartedly--minus the potential "birth of the Grey Knights" angle.

Nah, I was referring to this old plot thread back in 3rd that Garro either took the title Lord Of The Flies and may have settled in some anomaly that was the closest Chaos Outpost to Terra, that he'd worked for a cure to Nurgle's rot in the medicaurem or whatever it is, or that he'd help found the Inquisition and was head of an Ordo.

Another trail held that he and his men are still being held in remand until the Emperor can see him.... Or that he'd broken out during the siege of Terror and been slaughtered by both whilst attempting to board Horus's barge.

Being the potential father of the Grey Knights kinda seems a little too... stupid really.

One of Garro's men who was wounded fighting Nurgle deamons on the ship became the Lord of the Flies and Garro destroyed him on the surface of Luna.


Garro is then visited by the Channceller of Terra(whats his name?) and he tells him that men and women of an "Inquisitorial" nature will be needed to root out the creatures of the Warp and those that harbour them.


99.999999999999999999999% confirmation of foundation of the GKs.

Well, he is pretty much the first daemonhunting SM--albeit for reasons beyond his control. Chalk up another coolness point for Mortarion, priamrch of the Grey Templars.

Lol Wut

it's grey knights, but i am flattered

Haha, I just can't think of anything else when you're posting.

I think Garro's a pretty cool guy, he kills demon princes and doesn't afraid of betrayal by his brothers.

aaaannd he may still be alive

guys... uhh, topic/on? Just pay me a compliment and all will be well.

Although the thread is pretty much finished now...

Ooooh Dave, I love you so much and agree with everything you say always, you funny, sexy, fruit-headed man.

/falsetto voice

That'll do. Carry on.

You know Dave, you should've ranked the two "other" primarchs, joint 19th for being too lazy to contribute to the backstory the no-hopers..

Actually, I have to admit to liking this idea:

TherVadam wrote:I think it's the missing primarchs (unless Just Dave becomes unbelievably cynical and decides that all the primarchs are terrible and the mystery and therefore customizability of the missing primarchs is the best)

Just Dave wrote:Actually, I have to admit to liking this idea:

TherVadam wrote:I think it's the missing primarchs (unless Just Dave becomes unbelievably cynical and decides that all the primarchs are terrible and the mystery and therefore customizability of the missing primarchs is the best)

Yeah, no doubt. You have Corax in first after all!

TherVadam wrote:I think it's the missing primarchs (unless Just Dave becomes unbelievably cynical and decides that all the primarchs are terrible and the mystery and therefore customizability of the missing primarchs is the best) and that Angron isn't on the list due to how dull and Linear he is.

Pardon Manchu?

Hey, hey--you keep thinking I want Angron ranked higher. No, my friend, you ranked him in the correct spot. I just think Corax belongs down there with him (not second to last, either). Maybe we should do a "BEST" (versus favorite) primarch list with a panel of people working on it?

Manchu wrote: Maybe we should do a "BEST" (versus favorite) primarch list with a panel of people working on it?

Favorite makes it clear we look at opinions.

BEST needs a definition of best, thus an equal amount of known Background for all contenders would be neccessary.
But GW does not provide us with this.


Just Daves thread was fun cause it was JD's list and we could guess on his rankings but still disagree without whining why our personal
favorite wasn't placed correctly....

Take a look at your own anti-Corax posts.
Sure, there is a way to claim 'best' because 'we' ( the members of a panel ) say so.
If you pick those members and their views differ, maybe a honest "there is no best Primarch, just my personal favorite one" prevents
a debacle of either a pre-set list of "best primarchs" based on a clever pick on panel members or no list at all since panel members can't
agree on who's best and you have as many best primarchs as members...

You're too pessimistic, 1hadhq. Just Dave and I already agreed that Sanguinius is the BEST primarch despite being neither of our favorites. And I'd say the panel need only be four or five people.

Manchu wrote:You're too pessimistic, 1hadhq. Just Dave and I already agreed that Sanguinius is the BEST primarch despite being neither of our favorites. And I'd say the panel need only be four or five people.

1) 1hadhq => German = seen our leaders and staying an optimist?

2) My point still is : panel members = result

3) Since you two agreed on Sanguinius, I'll second ( or third? ) this.

4) who are these people and how do they become panel -ists...?

5)

IIRC last poll of best Primarch had the unknown ones at 2nd place

6) as N°3 shows, we already solved the question of best Primarch

But go on, nominate dakkaites and have people vote on panel-members
Provide a proper ( or funny ) reasoning and stay clear of any MOD threathening to ban whoever refutes to accept the superiorty of his
favorite Primarch and we all get another thread worth subscribing to.

Tell you what.

i will go right now and make a "Vote for your favorite primarch" thread and see who comes out on top.

NOOO! Been done before!

I want to be on this panel.

I will vote for the prettiest Primarch.

Except not Sanguinius, he's too pretty.

So, maybe Mortarion, post-heresy.

Egads, don't get this thread locked too soon guys, I need to whack it all in an article!

I dislike the irony of Saint voting for prettiest.

We also cannot reliably make a panel to vote for a collective opinion on best Primarch. For one thing there's not real point, for a second, we've all ready agreed that Sanguinius is the best as-well!
Sorry Manchu, but for once I agree with 1Hadhq!

Sanguinius for #18!

SaintHazard wrote:I want to be on this panel.

I will vote for the prettiest Primarch.

Except not Sanguinius, he's too pretty.

So, maybe Mortarion, post-heresy.

Staright past Fulgrim, huh? And what about the Emperor's other daughter, Jonson?

Mortarion is obviously the prettiest.

SaintHazard wrote:Mortarion is obviously the prettiest.

Really?

And which of them is oldest?

Heaviest?

You know, prettiest needs pics for those who can't remember...

Awesome thread is awesome. That is all!

Thanks man, impressive early post!

Welcome to Dakka!