Well I've finally made it to a 1000 posts on Dakka and it's been a wholly enjoyable experience. It reignited my love for the 40K universe and while I'll admit to not collecting that many miniatures, I love the background. Dakka itself has been awesome; welcoming, intellectual (seriously!!), humorous and simply enjoyable, led by a band of merry men and weiner-dogs alike (the Mods), Dakka's been a great place for me, providing some relaxation and happiness to help me overcome my depression and other problems, with the 40K universe being a great distraction from the suckier parts of life.
So, as inspired by Little Lord Fauntleroy, I intend to rank the Primarchs - pre daemonhood - by my own personal preference as a way of almost celebrating my time on Dakka.
That's right, in last place it's Angron; the guy with no depth or character whatsoever. Even his name sums up how lack-lustre he is, I mean, he's angry and he's called... Angron?! Sheesh, at least most of the other Primarch's had good names! With a name like that I guess it does shed some light on why Angron does have quite so many father-issues.
Some people criticise the Primarchs for complaining about their daddy etc. but it's Angron that really started it, complaining about being prevented from engaging in a suicide mission?! Awww poor you! You could've stayed there for all I care.
Then we get a Primarch and Legion that are very angry and very killy. That's basically all there is to them. All the legion's are killy, but the other Legions have some depth to them. I admit, a raging, dual-axe-wielding mad-man is quite cool. But that's all it is, it's not big (OK, it is), it's not funny and it's not clever. If you've read the short-story in Tales of Heresy, you may also come to see Angron has having so little substance or personality. All he is is angry and well, that's just not cool.
I admit however, Angron could've won some points back after the heresy as he is the only Daemon-Primarch to have actually done something. Although he failed at that too.
He's just advertised on my thread?! Jesting, carry on...
Vindicator#9 wrote:Welcome to 1000 posts heres to another 50000 more.
*whistles* thanks, but I doubt it! Next step is DCMbership...
Gitsplitta wrote:I just rolled 1000 myself... congrats!
So, where is your primarch ranking? Inquiring minds want to know...
Congrats to you too, although i think you're just 'beating' me! I intend to do the Primarch's one at a time, last to first, maybe once a day or more. I'm unsure... Even so, I need to read up on a couple of them, I mean, Khan?! He's cool but so so un-loved by Games Workshop.
SaintHazard wrote:I'm beating you.
I know! I noticed your post count the other day! A week ago you had like 250! Melissa also came out of no-where in terms of post count!
Just Dave wrote:I know! I noticed your post count the other day! A week ago you had like 250! Melissa also came out of no-where in terms of post count!
Quality, not quantity, eh?
Ask any IG commander how he feels about quality over quantity.
Actually, the truth is I'm on Dakka all day at work. Working in an office, I am one of many very sexy people who do very little work and have affairs. You know how it goes.
But I challenge you to find a single post of mine with no content!
Just Dave wrote:I know! I noticed your post count the other day! A week ago you had like 250! Melissa also came out of no-where in terms of post count!
Quality, not quantity, eh?
Ask any IG commander how he feels about quality over quantity.
Actually, the truth is I'm on Dakka all day at work. Working in an office, I am one of many very sexy people who do very little work and have affairs. You know how it goes.
But I challenge you to find a single post of mine with no content!
The one you just quoted doesn't count.
I'm a Space Marine man myself, so you can shove that argument up your proverbial Chimera-exhaust!
However, Challenge accepted.
Edit, found one already. I even chose this over one that had you saying "woo incest".
SaintHazard wrote:What they said.
Ediin wrote:Congratulations on the 1000 posts!
Is it true that when you hit the 1000-mark a Daemonette comes into your home and grants all your wishes?
Thanks! I'm not sure, I had some bearded and costumed man with a Scottish and Swedish accent claiming that he's a daemonette and here to 'please' me.
17th: Flesh Is Weak. But Fancy Hands Don't Seem To Be Any Better.
In at number 17, it's Ferrus Manus.
I'll get the good bits out of the way first: Hands of Steel are pretty cool and he's a no-nonsense kinda guy.
However, then there's the fact he got his bionic-arse kicked. Twice. Not only did he manage to kicked himself beaten-up but he also managed to get all of his veterans beaten up. Twice.
Another problem with Ferrus Manus is that we know relatively little about him and that which we do know doesn't appeal to me. I mean, for some it works - such as Khan - but for Manus, he seems to spend most of his time with his head up his - kicked - butt; there's stubborn and then there's stupidity. For Manus I find the line a bit blurred.
On Istvaan he and his veterans were going to die, however, they could've showed some sense and retreated into - perceived - safety. Instead he decides that attacking 4 traitor Legions with his already crippled force is a better idea?! The Iron Hands were going to die there, but he could've shown some sense in how they did it. The Iron Hands were crippled for the rest of the crusade, they would've been either way, just Ferrus ensured it by running at the enemy.
I admit, some people won't agree with this opinion in particular, but to me Ferrus is just a bit of a pleb...
In at a not-perfect 16, it's Fulgrim.
This guy is different... With White Hair, a hedonistic lifestyle and pink armour, he's a bit 'out there'.
Fulgrim could've been really, really cool and I want to like him, but then sense wins over and I realise he's really a prat. I admit, he's a brutal warrior and has a cool image and nickname, but can't he make his own decisions?!
He's massively influenced by a sword, some marines and his 2nd favourite brother, whilst ignoring his favourite brother, his father and a truth-speaking farseer?! surely he must've realised that wasn't his conscience telling him that everyone wants a bit of the sex (Slaanesh) and that it wasn't an entirely valid opinion?!
I admit, I don't expect him to listen to Eldrad too much (xenos and all that), but when he comes from a renowned fortune-seeing race and actually tells you what's going to happen, which you witness being true and yet ignore?! Sheesh. how little sense can a super-human being have?!
Add to that his perfectionism and he's just too flawed, too petty and too much of an easily-influenced sucker. So close but so far!
I agree with you about Ferrus, in part; whilst his stubborness did make him a boring charecter to read, I think his reasons for charging the traitor legions when he could have retreated were more sound than you make out. I don't believe he felt that Fulgrim had fully turned at that point-maybe, he thought, he could be saved, or at least he wanted the pleasure of killing him himself. I agree, going in unsupported was a dunce move, especially for the Iron hands who strived for miltary perfection, but I do think you've perhaps been a bit too hard on him in some respects. But that's just my opinion, as this thread is about yours, feel free to disagree. He still had one of the most badass legions around. I agree completely with you about Fulgrim though (This is just random, but I bet Perturabo gets in the top 5).
Sanctjud wrote:Poor Fulgrim, Daughter of the Corpse God!
He's still in 'the' closet isn't he...
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I agree with you about Ferrus, in part; whilst his stubborness did make him a boring charecter to read, I think his reasons for charging the traitor legions when he could have retreated were more sound than you make out. I don't believe he felt that Fulgrim had fully turned at that point-maybe, he thought, he could be saved, or at least he wanted the pleasure of killing him himself. I agree, going in unsupported was a dunce move, especially for the Iron hands who strived for miltary perfection, but I do think you've perhaps been a bit too hard on him in some respects. But that's just my opinion, as this thread is about yours, feel free to disagree. He still had one of the most badass legions around. I agree completely with you about Fulgrim though (This is just random, but I bet Perturabo gets in the top 5).
Feel free to disagree man, just because it's 'my thread' doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion, hell I like hearing the other side!
I know what you mean, I'm not entirely sure why I dislike him but I do. However, he can't have expected to be able to defeat Fulgrim after already getting his ass kicked by him once and walking into the mist of three primarch's and their respective legions?!
I like his Legion, hell yeah! However, I just dislike him. I think they've turned out better without him...
Just Dave wrote:
I know what you mean, I'm not entirely sure why I dislike him but I do. However, he can't have expected to be able to defeat Fulgrim after already getting his ass kicked by him once and walking into the mist of three primarch's and their respective legions?!
True, true. However, we have to bare in mind that during his first scrap with Fulgrim Ferrus had been taken off guard, so was expected to be on the back foot. As for taking on three legions at a time...nope, can't defend him there.
I don't get it? I love Bullfrog however; I reckon you should get your avatar to be the standard bullfrog shifting to develop claws etc. Dungeon Keeper 2 Style.
Next ranking will be added shortly...
Automatically Appended Next Post: 15th: "Daddy! Luther's Picking On Me!"
Yep, this list is getting more complicated by the second! At number 15, it's Lion El' Jonson.
Quite possibly the most spoilt and petulant Primarch there is, he's like a child throwing it's rattle out of a pram, but his rattle is the fate of 1000's. Jonson had the potential to be so, so cool! Just look at that image; how awesome is that?! The Dark Angels are also pretty cool and Jonson himself is a powerful fighter and tactician alike. However, no super-super-human being should ever be that petulant.
First on the list of my gripes with him is his belief that he should have been Warmaster. Why does he believe this? Not only because he's arrogant but because he's the Primarch of the 1st Legion?! Grow a pair man! It's a number! Then at the end of Fallen Angels,
Spoiler:
he (humorously) hands over some mighty powerful siege weapons (Leviathans?!) to Perturabo in return for support in his bid to become new Warmaster. How spoilt can one man be?!
He spoils his (incredible) tactics through his petulance; the story of his life IMHO.
Then there's the problem of him and Luther, it shouldn't take a genius to realise Luther's jealousy and potential threat to the Legion. Maybe Lion should've removed Luther from power long before he became a problem. Luther himself should've also grown a pair IMO, he's the son of the Emperor; realise your superiors. When Luther barely stopped Jonson being nuked in orbit should have been enough of a sign for Jonson, but instead you send him back to look over 1/2 the Legion?! Maybe I'm just cold-hearted, I don't know, I just think him and Luther are as bad as each other - pretty bad!
And Jonson also stormed out in a strop after his fight with Russ (who himself, was in the wrong IMHO) and then gave him the silent treatment?!
I apologise to all those who understandably like The Lion, but beneath his rock-hard, uber-cool exterior, he really, really needs to grow up.
Well said as always SaintHazard
P.S Just Dave, I for one have agreed with you on your choices so far, but if Morty doesn't win... There will be words. Jokes
I think it's the missing primarchs (unless Just Dave becomes unbelievably cynical and decides that all the primarchs are terrible and the mystery and therefore customizability of the missing primarchs is the best)
I've just realised, Just Dave, even if your excluding the missing primarchs, then why have you only got 18 places? Two missing makes nineteen otheres doesn't it? Unless first place is a draw... :O
SaintHazard wrote:
Actually, the truth is I'm on Dakka all day at work. Working in an office, I am one of many very sexy people who do very little work and have affairs. You know how it goes.
SaintHazard wrote:
Actually, the truth is I'm on Dakka all day at work. Working in an office, I am one of many very sexy people who do very little work and have affairs. You know how it goes.
Wow, I'm in the same boat too...maybe we should get together and steam things up here on dakka....make all the posters spam "NO WANT" pictures
TherVadam wrote:I think it's the missing primarchs (unless Just Dave becomes unbelievably cynical and decides that all the primarchs are terrible and the mystery and therefore customizability of the missing primarchs is the best)
oooh don't tempt me.
VikingScott wrote:
SaintHazard wrote:
Actually, the truth is I'm on Dakka all day at work. Working in an office, I am one of many very sexy people who do very little work and have affairs. You know how it goes.
14th: Iron Man is a superhero. Iron Woman is a command...
In at number 14 it's Perturabo, Primarch of one of the coolest Legions. However, this is about the Primarch's not their Legion's and as a whole, Perturabo is almost as whiney as Jonson!
What's worse than a hypocrite? An angry, jealous hypocrite at the head of hundreds of thousands angry super-warriors. Perturabo is an angry, jealous hypocrite at the head of such an army.
One thing I do like about Perturabo; he's evil. It's not that I like evilness, I always prefer the good-guys, however it just adds depth and character. Also, Perturabo has a cool image and his Legion is freakin' awesome! Similarly, Perturabo always manages to cause masses of Blood-shed without getting his hands dirty; he'd be very manipulative if he wasn't a whiny prick.
However, he complains about being used for masses of Siege Warfare, which I can kind of understand. However, it's without doubt his and his Legion's speciality and they didn't actually do anything other than moan, they didn't request a 'transfer' etc. he just moaned. So then he joins forces with Horus partially because he's fed up with constantly having to use siege warfare, then what does he do under Horus? Siege f***ing warfare!! Then what does he do after the heresy? More Siege f***ing warfare!!!
Secondly, he mutilates the population of his home world because they rebel, which is a bit harsh in itself - evil!!! Then he's all upset because he thinks people won't approve/will criticise him for it. But wait, he joins forces with the arch-traitor and Chaos gods?! I know which one of those two actions I'd forgive him for and it doesn't involve alliance with multi-tentacled nutters...
Also, Perturabo is jealous of Dorn? Grow up man! You're a freakin' Primarch! So what, Dorn can build some impressive defences, you're acknowledged as being the best for tearing them down. Everyone has their skills and their flaws and in the greater scheme of things, who cares if Dorn - your brother - gets a couple more pats on the back than you? If you weren't such an introverted, angry and complaining pleb, maybe the people would love you too?
So yes, for crimes against maturity, it's Perturabo.
I have a request, if you don't mind could you add in which legion the primarch is leading? I'm not that up on my fluff and I'm not really a SM player so my knowledge is very limited. Anyway it is interesting to see what you and others have to say about "The Founding Fathers" of the imperium's finest.
1. magnus the red
2.alparius/omegon
3.fulgrim
4horus
5.lorgar
6.ferrus manus
7.the lion
8.vulkan
9.leman russ
10.conrad curze
11.sanguinius
12.jaghatai khan
13.corax
14.rogal dorn
15.roboute guilliman
i know hes not a primarch but i think malchador the sigilite is cooler because he is a complete mystery i personly think there is a possiblity that he is actually the emperors true son and not vat grown like the primarchs
Sabatine wrote:I thought they ALL came from his loins? Gene Seed is another term for a word i've never said.
nah all the primarchs were created by the emperor deep underneath the emperors palace. but the emperor is so old that it is possible he sired children.
in the horus heresy books it tell you alot about how the primarchs were made
Sabatine wrote:I stopped reading them so i'll finish them i guess. sucks cause ruined my belief in johnson. thought he was a prick but not an uber prick.
damn right johnson was a prick thats why hes not that high up on my list... poor luther
Automatically Appended Next Post: damn i can believe i forgot to put perturabo on oh well hes my least favorite primarch anyway all those yellow and black hazard markings what was he thinking he might aswell beep when he goes backwards
That would be how GK came about. Big E and a Female super psycher made super law abiding psyco space marines. Come on jay walking is punishable by death to them. so is not saying Emperor Bless you when some one sneezes.
Sabatine wrote:That would be how GK came about. Big E and a Female super psycher made super law abiding psyco space marines. Come on jay walking is punishable by death to them. so is not saying Emperor Bless you when some one sneezes.
i bloody well love grey knights shame they are still myred in the 4th edition and are all still metal models but the new forge world pre-heresy armours look ace and would work pretty well for grey knights
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sabatine wrote:I think he's going to.....crap forgot where we were i'll edit in a sec.
Russ definately... Brothers! All we named after him was an IG tank. Not a SM tank, IG so noone really carried the honour of his name past death huh?
russ is pretty cool hes a bit of a fake tho he just acts like a fenrisian hes a total badass tho
But a Tank!? Why not rename a strike Cruiser or An Psychic ability (power of russ: Be a badass for whole game;must pass aleadership on 4d6) yeah that'd be awesome. I always roll low like 1 and 3's.
im drawing conrad curze fighting the pheonix guard and the imperial fists atm its gonna take a while tho
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sabatine wrote:But a Tank!? Why not rename a strike Cruiser or An Psychic ability (power of russ: Be a badass for whole game;must pass aleadership on 4d6) yeah that'd be awesome. I always roll low like 1 and 3's.
yeah but the leman russ tank is ace its rugged and survives tonnes of punishment just like leman russ
Meh! i kill them from the Rear nothing stops super flanking scouts with 2+ cover and melta's against all IG any way but i digress Russ is next and Russ Got his but kicked
Sabatine wrote:Meh! i kill them from the Rear nothing stops super flanking scouts with 2+ cover and melta's against all IG any way but i digress Russ is next and Russ Got his but kicked
good point tho when it comes to playing a game my army is a bit of a push over i buy models and then try my best to convert them and make up a greatbig elaborate back story
Automatically Appended Next Post: i wouldnt have put fulgrim so far down on the list yeah i know hes a vain gakker and hasnt got a clue and kills the illustrius ferrus manus but he beats an avatar to death with his bare hands if that doesnt earn him a place in the top spots i dont know what does
I think Corax will either be very high on the list, or next. He's either an awesome guy, leading mutants into the fray for the emperor, or you hate him.
The modern Space Wolves (like the Iron Hands) that we know of in the Imperium are better off without Russ as now they do any but blindly follow their orders; now they look out for the people of the Imperium and don't blindly attack their allies. Whereas Russ would follow said orders and would attack said allies without motivation.
So a shock result at number 13, it's the Emperor's lapdog, Leman Russ, who despite his image of awesomeness and badassery, never acted (maturely) on his own instinct and lets be honest, drank a little bit too much.
It's times like this that I'm happy my chapter does not have an identified primarch ... we're just part of the faceless hoards of questionable Imperial parentage.
Dave, keep going. I finished mine, and if you do not finish yours then I will kill myself. My tortured soul will descend into hell where it would amass a mighty army. This army will take on a new and terrible form increasing my diabolical powers, and I will open a portal from that world to this. After six days and six nights my army will descend through this portal to kill and maim all in it's path, before I open one of my nine mouths and sing the song that ends the earth.
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Dave, keep going. I finished mine, and if you do not finish yours then I will kill myself. My tortured soul will descend into hell where it would amass a mighty army. This army will take on a new and terrible form increasing my diabolical powers, and I will open a portal from that world to this. After six days and six nights my army will descend through this portal to kill and maim all in it's path, before I open one of my nine mouths and sing the song that ends the earth.
And that would be bad.
Define 'bad'?
Grey Templar wrote:unless i am mistaken those are DE warriors standing behind Russ.
You're Mistaken. They're his conscience. Joking! He doesn't have one!
You're still mistaken however.
Xca|iber wrote:I'm noticing a trend here.
Dudes that are evil, or otherwise lack moral fiber, are towards the bottom. No love for the unconditional hate.
I think JD must be a pretty swell guy in real life. Unlike some of us here
I love this guy! I'd like to think I'm atleast a nice guy - my heart is in the right place!
Yes, the much anticipated ranking of Gulliman, the guy that everyone loves to hate. Except of course the Ultramarines and half of the Imperium...
So we've had anger, immaturity, ignorance and idiocy. Now we've come to arrogance. By which I mean, assuming that you're right and perfect and everyone else is wrong. I'm looking at you Codex Astartes! Even his Legion isn't modestly named - I mean, Ultramarines?! Ultra Marines?! How about 'Bestestmarines'? or 'Ubermarines'? or 'fairlyaveragemarines'? As a guy and as a leader, Gulliman isn't too bad. Actually he's a freakin' great tactician and the Ultramarines were fairly Ultra. But still, not everyone has to follow the Codex Astartes, or fight the same way as you. Not everyone managed to keep their Legion unharmed. Not everyone likes you. Clearly.
One of my gripes with Gulliman is that he perceives he is always right. Such as the Codex Astartes or bullying Kurze. Even the Emperor wasn't always right, let alone you! The Night Lords were devastatingly effective as sometimes they didn't even need to fight, just scare the enemy, part of Kurze turning traitor is because Gulliman kept criticising the poor little guy! The Codex astartes it self is flawed and arguably worse than the Legion set-up but still, Gulliman had to have his way! If it wasn't for the fact he had 20 twins anyone would think him to be an only child!
I admit, I don't mind Gulliman too much, I like his loyalty and ability. However, that doesn't mean I think the astronomican shines out of his ass! I admit Roboute, you're a helluva leader and you're Legion is/was almost invincible. However, that was largely because their was so many of the blighter's (randy gene-seed?!) and even so, it doesn't mean you're perfect. if you were perfect, you would've been on Terra bitch-slapping Horus to the Eye of Terror and beyond!
Also, the Imperium (modern) is a corrupt and dying society and we can partially thank you for that with your Codex and High Lords and things. Thanks Roboute, nice job mate. Really Ultra.
So despite being an almost Knight and Great Leader, Roboute is ranked at number 12 because he has his self-righteous head shoved so far up his ass that he thinks Yellow and Blue don't clash?! That my friends is a fashion foul-up of the highest order and is therefore unforgivable.
I'm liking this list so far. While normally I don't dig on random e-hate, this has some style to it. Enjoying it immensely.
And so far finding it hard to argue with most of your decisions. I don't think I'd have stuck Gulliman so low, but I am waiting to see what your reasons are. And every time since the 17th I have expected the next entry to be Sanguinius. I am expecting some seriously good reasoning to place him higher than some of those Primarchs already mentioned.
There should be picture there, of Rowboat pulling a very "duhhhhhhh" face...
Automatically Appended Next Post: 11th: Lucky to have made it this far...
Yep, at number 11 it's the godfather of soul. As in, "I just sold your soul to Chaos!"
Now as someone has already noted, I'm a nice guy and not usually a fan of the evil nut-cases that seem to be everywhere. However, not quite everyone is as evil or manipulative of Lorgar.
I admit, I'm not a fan of religion and I feel that Lorgar's a bit... weak or easily influenced (think Fulgrim/sword). Let me put it like this; he was all over the Emperor like a cheap coat, proclaiming him to be a god and all that jazz. Then the Emperor (his daddy) gives him a slap on the wrist and tells him to stop, so what does Lorgar do? He doesn't just stop worshipping the Emperor, he starts worshipping the Chaos freakin' gods!! So he's still being all religious, but now to the Emperor's worst enemies! Daddy said no, not "go see the people that want me and the human race dead/enslaved and look up to them instead." All you had to do was stop, not throw some uber-tantrum and cause half the human race to go crazy or dead!
Similarly, Lorgar is turned to Chaos through a couple of his lieutenants, I would much rather it was Lorgar that turned his own Legion to chaos, not the other way around!
Also, the manipulative kind of evil is the sort no-one likes. When a psychopath gets his hands dirty; that's cool (for a psychopath! I don't endorse killing!). However, when you sit back and get someone else to do it, that's not so cool.
However, Lorgar is just pretty damn evil. In a good/actually having some substance/reasoning way, not like Angron! I mean, he turns half his brother's to Chaos and burns half the Imperium; that's not an amateur job! There's cruddy evil (Angron), get-your-hands-dirty-cool-evil and then there's evil evil. Lorgar is the evil evil variety. He's evil, but he makes others evil and is very good at what he does! I admit, I don't think Horus could've won, but hell, they made a pretty damn good job of it!
Angron's just like a pawn of Lorgar/Chaos, Lorgar is more of a bishop (pun intended).
So yeah, whilst I dislike evil and the Chaos gods as a whole, I do kind of like the extent to which Lorgar is a psycho and how it was largely him that caused the Horus Heresy - a freakin' great plot line!
Also...
is it just me or does he look like an angry Milky Way Magic Star?
So for being a bit weak and a fool, yet utterly evil, It's Lorgar. Also, Magic Stars are THE BEST!
We're now into the top ten (Gitspliitta). The remaining Primarchs, in loyalist/traitor order are: Corax, Dorn, Khan, Sanguinus, Vulkan, Alpharius/Omegon, Horus, Kurze, Magnus, Mortarion.
An exact fifty/fifty split it seems. Oh wait...
We're now descending into a list of Primarch's I actually have more respect than hatred for, so the 'humour' may decrease.
Even so, the 'humour' is bound to decrease with Vulkan, a no-nonsense kind of guy that I don't know enough about to mock...
10th: I'm a Fire Starter, Twisted Fire Starter.
In at number 10, it's Vulkan!
Obviously, for political correctness Vulkan had to be in the top ten! However I do admit I quite like the big guy. I mean, he plays with fire. He plays with FIRE! Flames! He burns s**t! What kind of slightly twisted man doesn't like that?! But if that's not cool enough, he gets the rest of his Legion to play with fire too! But not only fire, explosives too!
Vulkan is the stereotypical man's wet-dream; tough-guy and plays with flames and explosives! That's the kind of role-model any child should have!
Actually, there's more good stuff to Vulkan than just his being a pyromaniac: he's an upstanding, honourable guy. He and his Legion stand up for the little guys; he stands up to the Dark Eldar on his homeworld (although with their old codex they were bound to lose!) and fights for the loyalists and the people of the Imperium. Other than his slight obsession with fire and explosives, this is one helluva guy to look up to!
So Vulkan's tough, down-to-earth, smart, a pyromaniac, green(cool!), upstanding and honourable? How much of a stand-up cool guy is he?!
So why, if he's such a dude, is Vulkan not higher than 10th?! Well, the obsessed with technology gimmick is a little bit tedious, the remaining Primarchs I like more (duhhh!) and frankly we don't know enough about the guy for him to be liked more. What we know is mostly good, yeah. But I want to see his flaws, his true character and his actions to connect with him better and we just don't have that.
Maybe if we learn more about him he'll be ranked higher, until then though he's at number 10. Don't blame me, blame Games-Workshop, not that you didn't already.
Okay...Angron is my favorite primarch, but I will agree that he does lack real substance in his character. However, I think the lack of substance is better than substance that is stupid and unnoriginal.
Also, Konrad Curze is in the top 10? Lolwut? Batman is higher on the list than the guy who instigated the Horus Heresy?
Darth Bob wrote:Okay...Angron is my favorite primarch, but I will agree that he does lack real substance in his character. However, I think the lack of substance is better than substance that is stupid and unnoriginal.
Also, Konrad Curze is in the top 10? Lolwut? Batman is higher on the list than the guy who instigated the Horus Heresy?
Meh, to each his own, I suppose.
Wait, Angron himself is stupid and unorginal! He's Angry (big whoop), he's called Angron (wowee) and he's... Ummm... Well, nothing else. His only defining trait is anger and he's unoriginal in that!
And yes, have you seen The Dark Knight?! Also, I believe my explanation will be adequate...
Again, I will ask, Will you please state which legion is the primarch from? Some (a very few) I know because they're so well know or you actually put the name of the legion in the comments. Others I'm like WTF who would have him as a leader?
It's hard to appreciate the sentiments when you can't even understand the background or the results of the primarchs' actions.
Darth Bob wrote:Okay...Angron is my favorite primarch, but I will agree that he does lack real substance in his character. However, I think the lack of substance is better than substance that is stupid and unnoriginal.
Also, Konrad Curze is in the top 10? Lolwut? Batman is higher on the list than the guy who instigated the Horus Heresy?
Meh, to each his own, I suppose.
Wait, Angron himself is stupid and unorginal! He's Angry (big whoop), he's called Angron (wowee) and he's... Ummm... Well, nothing else. His only defining trait is anger and he's unoriginal in that!
And yes, have you seen The Dark Knight?! Also, I believe my explanation will be adequate...
Most of the Primarchs are stupid and unoriginal, to be perfectly honest. But I'd rather have a character that's 1-dimensional than one that's got some silly backstory. In fact, I'd have to say that the only Primarchs who aren't stupid and unoriginal are Alpharius (if you hadn't had him in the top 10 I'd be questioning your sanity), Horus, and Lorgar. Maybe Sanguinius, but he's an overzealous prettyboy whom I hate with a passion.
I'm very excited to see your reasoning for Corax and Kurze, both of which never did ANYTHING, being in the top 10. Corax got his ass handed to him, tried to make some new Space Marines and by the time he finished, the Horus Heresy was over (good timing there, champ). And Kurze was an emo batman wannabe who let himself be killed because "he became exactly what he sought to destroy" (talk about lame). Not to mention his title of "Night Haunter" . At least Angron started the first war of Armageddon and caused an entire planets populace to be sterilized and placed in work camps (even after he lost).
I'm not saying Angron deserves the #1 spot, nor be in the top 10. But he's done a hell of a lot more than Corax and Kurze.
Also, Angron would wipe the floor with the King of the Space Furries.
I have a feeling Kurze will be in number 1, based on what Dave's said in other threads.
What's the betting he's next ?
@Dave-No problemo, I have some strange obsession with putting all the Legions in order with the names of their Primarch. It was all I could do to not add the Roman Numerals .
Darth Bob wrote:Okay...Angron is my favorite primarch, but I will agree that he does lack real substance in his character. However, I think the lack of substance is better than substance that is stupid and unnoriginal.
Also, Konrad Curze is in the top 10? Lolwut? Batman is higher on the list than the guy who instigated the Horus Heresy?
Meh, to each his own, I suppose.
Wait, Angron himself is stupid and unorginal! He's Angry (big whoop), he's called Angron (wowee) and he's... Ummm... Well, nothing else. His only defining trait is anger and he's unoriginal in that!
And yes, have you seen The Dark Knight?! Also, I believe my explanation will be adequate...
Most of the Primarchs are stupid and unoriginal, to be perfectly honest. But I'd rather have a character that's 1-dimensional than one that's got some silly backstory. In fact, I'd have to say that the only Primarchs who aren't stupid and unoriginal are Alpharius (if you hadn't had him in the top 10 I'd be questioning your sanity), Horus, and Lorgar. Maybe Sanguinius, but he's an overzealous prettyboy whom I hate with a passion.
I'm very excited to see your reasoning for Corax and Kurze, both of which never did ANYTHING, being in the top 10. Corax got his ass handed to him, tried to make some new Space Marines and by the time he finished, the Horus Heresy was over (good timing there, champ). And Kurze was an emo batman wannabe who let himself be killed because "he became exactly what he sought to destroy" (talk about lame). Not to mention his title of "Night Haunter" . At least Angron started the first war of Armageddon and caused an entire planets populace to be sterilized and placed in work camps (even after he lost).
I'm not saying Angron deserves the #1 spot, nor be in the top 10. But he's done a hell of a lot more than Corax and Kurze.
Also, Angron would wipe the floor with the King of the Space Furries.
I wont deny that some of the Primarchs are unoriginal, however doesn't prevent them having some semblance or character or sense. Angron is really just Angry. He's never achieved anything but a whole lot of killing, but others have done it better. Horus burned half the galaxy and is an almost tragic hero, Lorgar caused Horus to burn half the galaxy and is both manipulative and zealous, Mortarion causes more deaths than Angron through plagues alone and is a very sinister character. Angron however is just angry IMHO.
But yes, we'll see about Corax and Kurze, although ultimately it is - of course - just me publically expressing my opinion. Yours is welcome, however we'll see once I've got to Corax and Kurze
Finally, I believe in a 1 on 1 fight Russ could beat Angron. I expect Angron would be a raging - yet skilled - madman, whilst Russ would be his natural calm, aggressive and incredibly deadly self. IMHO Angron is better against hordes whilst Russ is superior against individuals. But obviously, unlike how my reasoning for Corax and Kurze will kick your ass, we can't know for sure!
Darth Bob wrote:Okay...Angron is my favorite primarch, but I will agree that he does lack real substance in his character. However, I think the lack of substance is better than substance that is stupid and unnoriginal.
Also, Konrad Curze is in the top 10? Lolwut? Batman is higher on the list than the guy who instigated the Horus Heresy?
Meh, to each his own, I suppose.
Wait, Angron himself is stupid and unorginal! He's Angry (big whoop), he's called Angron (wowee) and he's... Ummm... Well, nothing else. His only defining trait is anger and he's unoriginal in that!
And yes, have you seen The Dark Knight?! Also, I believe my explanation will be adequate...
Most of the Primarchs are stupid and unoriginal, to be perfectly honest. But I'd rather have a character that's 1-dimensional than one that's got some silly backstory. In fact, I'd have to say that the only Primarchs who aren't stupid and unoriginal are Alpharius (if you hadn't had him in the top 10 I'd be questioning your sanity), Horus, and Lorgar. Maybe Sanguinius, but he's an overzealous prettyboy whom I hate with a passion.
I'm very excited to see your reasoning for Corax and Kurze, both of which never did ANYTHING, being in the top 10. Corax got his ass handed to him, tried to make some new Space Marines and by the time he finished, the Horus Heresy was over (good timing there, champ). And Kurze was an emo batman wannabe who let himself be killed because "he became exactly what he sought to destroy" (talk about lame). Not to mention his title of "Night Haunter" . At least Angron started the first war of Armageddon and caused an entire planets populace to be sterilized and placed in work camps (even after he lost).
I'm not saying Angron deserves the #1 spot, nor be in the top 10. But he's done a hell of a lot more than Corax and Kurze.
Also, Angron would wipe the floor with the King of the Space Furries.
I wont deny that some of the Primarchs are unoriginal, however doesn't prevent them having some semblance or character or sense. Angron is really just Angry. He's never achieved anything but a whole lot of killing, but others have done it better. Horus burned half the galaxy and is an almost tragic hero, Lorgar caused Horus to burn half the galaxy and is both manipulative and zealous, Mortarion causes more deaths than Angron through plagues alone and is a very sinister character. Angron however is just angry IMHO.
But yes, we'll see about Corax and Kurze, although ultimately it is - of course - just me publically expressing my opinion. Yours is welcome, however we'll see once I've got to Corax and Kurze
Finally, I believe in a 1 on 1 fight Russ could beat Angron. I expect Angron would be a raging - yet skilled - madman, whilst Russ would be his natural calm, aggressive and incredibly deadly self. IMHO Angron is better against hordes whilst Russ is superior against individuals. But obviously, unlike how my reasoning for Corax and Kurze will kick your ass, we can't know for sure!
I agree, and I respect your opinion and your right to express it. I wasn't being sarcastic, I really am excited to see your reasoning behind Corax and Kurze in the top 10. However, I've gotta ask, why is Lorgar so low on the list? I'd think he minimally beats Khan for a spot in the top 10.
Edit: Also, I highly doubt Mortarion and company has killed more people than Angron and company. During the Dominion of Fire, he killed over 70 sectors worth of Imperial citizens. That alone is a crapload of people.
Darth Bob wrote:Alpharius (if you hadn't had him in the top 10 I'd be questioning your sanity), Horus, and Lorgar. Maybe Sanguinius, but he's an overzealous prettyboy whom I hate with a passion.
So basically anyone who's a loyalist is unoriginal and boring? Great.
Darth Bob wrote:Alpharius (if you hadn't had him in the top 10 I'd be questioning your sanity), Horus, and Lorgar. Maybe Sanguinius, but he's an overzealous prettyboy whom I hate with a passion.
So basically anyone who's a loyalist is unoriginal and boring? Great.
Well, Sanguinius, I will admit is a pretty dynamic character, I just personally don't like him. But overall, yeah pretty much. It goes back to the case where the villains in a story are usually more dynamic characters than the heroes. To me, the Primarchs don't break that tradition.
Although Alpharius is kinda a loyalist...or is he?
Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
I suppose I'll produce my own whenever I hit 3k, it should be amusing.
Melissia wrote:Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
I suppose I'll produce my own whenever I hit 3k, it should be amusing.
Except for the part where he had a group of malevolent religious fanatics whispering in his ear about the allure of Chaos. It was hardly because he was being a "rebellious teenager", it was because Erebus and company made up a bunch of bullgak that caused Horus to feel betrayed by the man he once called his father. He didn't just decide out of the blue one day "Daddy doesn't love me I'm going to rebel! BAWWWWW!", the Word Bearers had been planting seeds of deceit and treachery for a very, very long time. Those seeds eventually sprouted when Horus gave in to the lies he had been fed. From his point of view (and anyone's in his position), he had every reason to be pissed off at daddy. The only reason he had that view was because his mind had been warped by the whispers of Chaos.
So how the guy who sent the Galaxy into a state of turmoil the likes of which it has never seen before (or since), nearly killed the Emperor, and effectively released Chaos as a major threat to the Imperium is a "pansy", is beyond me.
It may have taken him a bit of time to come to the conclusion, but he still essentially started a war because he didn't get enough hugs.
You're not gonna get me to like him. He's entirely unlikeable, and I just don't empathize with him at all, not even as a villain. Mortarion, sure. Magnus, sure. Hell, even Angron, for all his one-sidedness. But Horus? I can't respect him.
Melissia wrote:It may have taken him a bit of time to come to the conclusion, but he still essentially started a war because he didn't get enough hugs.
And he felt that everything he had been told, everything he had stood for, and everything he fought for, was a lie created by the most important and influential figure in his life. People tend to get a bit pissy when that happens.
Not saying you have to like him. But to brush him off as a "pansy" and say his only motivation was him being a "whiny rebellious teenager" is unrealistic. Regardless of whether he's likeable, he's still one of the most influential figures in the 40k universe.
Thank you Fauntleroy for the list. I suppose I could have looked up everyone on Wiki but I didn't think it would take much effort for someone in the know to make the list. Since I asked twice I'll thank you again as well.
Leo_the_Rat wrote:Thank you Fauntleroy for the list. I suppose I could have looked up everyone on Wiki but I didn't think it would take much effort for someone in the know to make the list. Since I asked twice I'll thank you again as well.
'Tis not a problem, anything to put my mind of the growing paranoia that soon I'll have to do another of these threads ...
Alpharius wrote:I have to agree with Melissia here, the motivations of the Traitors so far?
Really weak.
Basically duped/deceived/tricked into, for all intents and purposes, ruining the Imperium and dooming humanity to eventual destruction.
All because of... what exactly?
I believe the reason that was given at the meeting was "Lulz".
Just Dave wrote:
Then there's the problem of him and Luther, it shouldn't take a genius to realise Luther's jealousy and potential threat to the Legion. Maybe Lion should've removed Luther from power long before he became a problem. Luther himself should've also grown a pair IMO, he's the son of the Emperor; realise your superiors. When Luther barely stopped Jonson being nuked in orbit should have been enough of a sign for Jonson, but instead you send him back to look over 1/2 the Legion?! Maybe I'm just cold-hearted, I don't know, I just think him and Luther are as bad as each other - pretty bad!
And Jonson also stormed out in a strop after his fight with Russ (who himself, was in the wrong IMHO) and then gave him the silent treatment?!
I apologise to all those who understandably like The Lion, but beneath his rock-hard, uber-cool exterior, he really, really needs to grow up.
i really like luther thou, i agree about the lion, but something interesting lies within the whole ordeal between luther and the lion near the end where it seems that luther is defending the planet and being the good guys, i dunno i found luther to be interesting and the lion to be a bby.
Alpharius wrote:I have to agree with Melissia here, the motivations of the Traitors so far?
Really weak.
Basically duped/deceived/tricked into, for all intents and purposes, ruining the Imperium and dooming humanity to eventual destruction.
All because of... what exactly?
Found this list late but its good so far. And yes all of the Traitor Primarchs acted like immature teenagers. As much as I hate to admit it the only traitor that might have had a compelling reason for treason was Alpharius Omegon.
Melissia wrote:Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
I suppose I'll produce my own whenever I hit 3k, it should be amusing.
Replace the word "Horus" with "Lorgar" and I agree 100%
I could totally see Horus flipping out when he is confronted by the Lectitio Divinatus, especially with the Word Bearers all up in his inner councils n' whatnot. I would also contend that at least Magnus would break from the "immature teenager" mold. I mean, you screw up and all of a sudden you have the Space Wolves annihilating you? And even after you admit you were wrong, your freaking Brother still does his level best to kill you and wipe out your planet? Plus Ferrus Manus matches any of the traitor primarchs for immature teen syndrome
Darth Bob wrote:I agree, and I respect your opinion and your right to express it. I wasn't being sarcastic, I really am excited to see your reasoning behind Corax and Kurze in the top 10. However, I've gotta ask, why is Lorgar so low on the list? I'd think he minimally beats Khan for a spot in the top 10.
Edit: Also, I highly doubt Mortarion and company has killed more people than Angron and company. During the Dominion of Fire, he killed over 70 sectors worth of Imperial citizens. That alone is a crapload of people.
Oh yeah, as I equally respect yours. I look forward to your response to Corax and Kurze, however right now I can't say too much so I don't give it away...
As for Mortarion, IMHO the plague (zombies!) is why he's killed more than Angron I expect. Typhus particularly has been spreading that stuff like it was good news! My thinking is that with the Plague and Zombies, the effects of the Death Guard will spread and spread further and further, whereas the effects of the World Eaters are limited to specific areas and contained...
SaintHazard wrote:
Melissia wrote:stab
With an axe
That takes some talent.
Prod?
Alpharius wrote:And clearly, this is one man's opinion, yes?
One talented man that is making us laugh, but one man nonetheless!
Also, be sure to check this thread for more good times:
"Who goes there?"
"It is I, the Emperor, from Terra. Ruler of all Mankind!"
"Pull the other one!"
"I am, and this is my trusty servant Patsy. We have traveled the length and breadth of the galaxy in search of men who will join me in my court at Terra. I must speak with your lord and master."
"What? Traveled in a spaceship?"
"Yes!"
"You're using coconuts!"
"What?"
"You've got two empty halves of coconut and you're bangin' 'em together."
"So?"
"Where'd you get the coconuts?"
"We found them."
"Found them? On Fenris? The coconut's tropical!"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, this is an ice planet!"
I love that whole Martin Sheen (M'Shen)/apocalypse now thing personally! Quite witty IMHO.
Anyways:
9th: "These boots are made for stamping and that's just what they'll do."
Genghis Khan in Space! Need I say more?!
...What? I do? OK...
Khan is without doubt an uber-cool dude. I admit, he may lack a bit of the ol' depth, but he is just so, so cool! Look at that picture, look at it! How cool does he look?! He's wearing bronze and red, a freakin' awesome top-knot (a cool one though) and is covered in spikes!
Wait... It gets better! Look at that sword (just imagine less of a curve!), you can tell he carves the Ork up at Christmas with that man-sword! Also, notice his man-tash? That is sooo cool! And his coolness doesn't stop there, oh no. See his heels and fur-lined cape?! How much of an utter fashion-ignorant but massively confident super-human warrior must you be to wear those?! If he came to me looking like that, I'd surrender then and there!*
Khan must have levels of endurance and pain-threshold un-matched by any of the other Primarch's if he can battle across the galaxy in heels!
I haven't stopped, at the Siege of Terra Khan was witnessed going into battle standing atop a Razorback!** Imagine the dude you see above standing atop a battle-tank, riding into battle cutting down anyone who stands in his way! Khan is freakin' awesome! A furious, majestic image of a primarch, the visage of the Emperors wrath honed into one super-human being!
Khan also has some substance behind his exterior of uber-coolness (jealous Angron?). He's a loyalist Primarch and combine that with his upbringing and Legion's character and you can tell he's a guy that utterly believes in loyalty and honour. Loyalty and Honour. Gladiator-style!
Also, the White Scars and Khan seem to receive comparatively little credit for their efforts in the Siege of Terra. The Fists were camping out (not Emperors Children kind of camping!) on Terra the whole time and Sanguinus kicked the proverbial bucket. But the White Scars, they fought at the head of the loyalists and took the fight to the traitors, trying to keep them on the back foot and away from the Palace and civilians, not that anyone remembers!
Finally, Khan moulded his Legion into an utterly brutal and scarily efficient force. Let me put it like this; Space Marines are naturally incredibly tough and incredibly dangerous. So they have the strength and toughness equivalent to a sledge hammer. What could make this sledge hammer even more deadly/powerful? Velocity, that's what. Combine the Space Marines natural strength and toughness with speed and they'll be nigh on unstoppable.
So why then, if he is so cool, is Khan only 9th? Simply put, because we know so little about the guy. It's a damned shame as he's a helluva character, but sadly, it's true. Also, not everyone finds him as cool as I do. But it is my list! Mwhahahahehehehohoho...
* Just Dave does not endorse or criticise cross-dressing in any way, remember those cage-fighters dressed as women in the news?! Well Khan makes them look like sissy's!
** Technically Razorbacks weren't around during the Heresy. Maybe he did it riding atop a pony or something? Hell, that'd be cooler actually!
*** There wasn't a 3 asterisk note, I just wanted to put another one in. I have urges, so what?!
Hah! Nice! It took me a second to make the connection... but M'shen = Martin Sheen! Who played Captain Benjamin Willard in Apocalypse Now, who killed Colonel Walter Kurtz, who's based (as well as the rest of the movie) on the character of Kurtz in Joseph Conrad (Konrad)'s novel Heart of Darkness!
Wow.
I am a huge fan of both Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now, and I never made this connection until now.
It's a real shame than the White Scars don't get more development. I think its because doing a motorcycle-borne chapter book without having it come off as cheesy is really difficult.
We'll see in "Hunt for Voldorius" coming out soon which features the top 3 legions never written about: White Scars, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion.
Yeah I agree, I think it'd be a good opportunity for GW though due to the character of the Legion and the cost of the biker kits!
Also, I doubt being white helps...
The first 3 HH books made being white cool. Luna Wolves were so badass they were just like we're having pride in our super shiny armour cuz you can't touch us anyway. On the other hand not sure what it has to do with Mogolians....
If you think that's bad... read this entry on Wikipedia... especially the last two paragraphs. I knew that was too stupid a name not to be connected to something.
I just get tired of GW "borrowing" damn near everything from other sources, whether it's other science fiction or puns in names... makes we wonder if anyone over there ever had an original thought that was worth putting down on paper...
I'd of been much happier if they'd have just called him Lionel Johnson... rather than making a nonsensical name out of it. If you want the primarch as a tribute to the poet.. that's cool, just kind of a dumb way to modify his name. If you're going to do it, then do it... don't muck about.
Gitsplitta wrote:I just get tired of GW "borrowing" damn near everything from other sources, whether it's other science fiction or puns in names... makes we wonder if anyone over there ever had an original thought that was worth putting down on paper...
I'd of been much happier if they'd have just called him Lionel Johnson... rather than making a nonsensical name out of it. If you want the primarch as a tribute to the poet.. that's cool, just kind of a dumb way to modify his name. If you're going to do it, then do it... don't muck about.
Actually, IMHO I quite like it (except the blatant ones, Angron!) I think it's quirky and kind of funny. Atleast they don't do it themselves and then get someone really crappy! I mean, Kurze is a cool name IMO.
Also, this'll be from the time where it was much more of a 'jokey' WH40K with the planet called Birmingham etc...
Just Dave wrote:I would've refrained from using it had you said "For the love of all that is... awesome, please do NOT use the John Blanche picture of ME! "
Huh... I thought about it, but it just seems so... gauche!
that's fair enough Lord Alpharius, we'll see what happens when it comes to his/her/its/your time in the list. Which isn't yet...
Now I apologise guys, I did just write up the next ranking however then I realised quite how much I like the guy and realised I couldn't place him in 8th. As such, you'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out the next one! Sorry Lads (and ladies), tune in tomorrow though and I'll try to make it a double...
8th: Horus' Hairesy - Look At That Fur Coat! Disgusting.
Finishing in 8th place, it's the Dark Lord himself; Horus Lupercal.
So first on my list of pro's about Horus; he also realises how much of a tool Angron is - seeing him as a weapon rather than an ally - and rightly so IMHO. "Yes Dave, you don't like Angron, we get it!"
Within the Warhammer 40K universe, I like both badassery, substance and righteousness. Horus has all of those traits. Horus had all of those traits. Horus himself is pretty kick-ass, I mean in the picture above he looks like he'd kick a puppy for fun. Whilst I don't endorse kicking puppies, you kind of expect Horus to do it, he became that evil and that merciless. Horus also had/has substance, he partially endorsed 'democracy' through the Mournival, through which he would get the balance of advice to take the proper course of action. The mournival itself is a good idea, providing Horus with the right mix of different traits to balance out his own personality, showing he recognises his own flaws and is willing to seek advice even from those 'beneath him'.
It was clear Horus was a reasonable and well-rounded guy. He had many traits and lots of character; wisdom, compassion, protection, anger, honour, loyalty, the list goes on... Few of the Primarchs have such a well-rounded character of are so aware of themselves. Unlike many of the other Primarchs, Horus did truly appear human and for that, I can almost warm to him. In the novels Horus even shows humour that isn't seen in any of the other Primarchs and he displays some weakness in character. He's a human in a primarch's body.
I believe that the Emperor was right to make Horus the warmaster - although maybe Dorn or Gulliman instead - he appeared to have the right balance within his personality and he's a strong ambitious leader. It wasn't through any clear flaw of his own that Horus was corrupted, it was through exploitation of the pressures and worries already placed upon him.
His actions were also very intelligent however. For example, they attack on the 'Aurelian Technocracy'(?) gave the traitors a 'taste' of fighting their brothers and the Istvaan V dropsite massacre is genius...
In fact, his corruption further shows the human aspect of Horus: he had worries and he had fears, but he also had noble intentions and ambitions. He wanted to live up to his fathers intentions and he wanted to unite humanity, but he struggled (understandably) to cope with the pressures put upon him and this was exploited by Chaos and Erebus.
Melissia said:
Melissia wrote:Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
And that is where I disagree, for not only can you not make an axe from fire, but also it's difficult to stab with an axe... Oh, also I disagree with Horus being a pansy, I think much of his reasoning for the heresy was understandable.
Horus was under masses of pressure, trying to run the galaxy and please everyone whilst being undermined by the High Lords of Terra. He had also just been attacked by a lost human civilisation whom he had connected and bonded with, whereby he would have had to exterminate an entire human civilisation which spanned across many planets and more. At the same time he had been abandoned by his father for reasons unknown to him - it's not quite not enough hugs, more not enough kisses - and left to try and lead a galactic crusade with his brothers criticising him, his enemies attacking him, his allies betraying him and the high-lords undermining him. If you combine this with a mortal wound and being exposed to the full power of Chaos, I can kind of understand why Horus rebelled. Dorn himself didn't think it was the Horus he knew that was rebelling, but that he had infact been tainted by something.
And that is exactly right. The real Horus - pre heresy - was a noble upstanding kind of chap with good intentions and actions, it's just Chaos went all mind-control on him.
However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand. Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!
Also on the list of bad things; he ignores the mournival and listens to Erebus. WHY?! Erebus is clearly a slimey git and the mournival were there for a reason! Also, why did he not at all listen to Garviel Loken before he got his ass whupped by Eugan Temba? As it says in Lucky Number Sleven, if you get called a horse once, hit em. If you get called a horse twice, stab em. If you get called a horse 3 times, then well, you just might be a horse. Or something along those lines.
So if Garviel Loken says the poop is gonna hit the fan once, ignore him. If he says it twice, rebuke him. If he says it three times, then turn the f***ing fan off! It'd save electricity too.
For being ultimately a very human and well-meaning - if a bit genocidal - guy, it's Horus Lupercal, in at number 8. But hey, at-least he didn't get his wrist slapped by the Emperor this time!
Guitardian wrote:God Emprah I hope Guilly is next. He invented math-hammer after all... which turned 40k into a nerdy math-fan dominated game instead of a geeky sci-fi-fan dominated game. Roboutte made the law of 10's. How stodgy and restrictive and anal retentive is that?
Good point on Angron though. "hmm... why is he so angry?"
"um. dude, his name is Angron."
"oh. duh. does he do anything else?"
"well he hits things I guess."
"oh."
Guilly was 13th or something mate!
Just remember, Angron is the real primarch that suffers from father issues, forget the rest of them!
yeah sorry it didnt scroll at first. I just noticed all the previous pages. I'm doing my homework scrolling through now... (I still think he should have been #2 though but I'll get to it) Can I assume you have read all the primarch books? I am still working on 'horus rising' and everything I know about them I know from years and years of codex fluff throughout the various editions. Sorry if I backtracked you.
Perhaps you should re-title the tread... "Celebrating 1000 posts by writing a really butt-kicking thread."
Really enjoying this and I appreciate all the work that's gone into it.
I'm not really a chaos guy, and I'm really not a nurgle guy... but I've always thought Mortarian's story was fairly compelling... be interesting to see where he ends up.
If I had a list of best primarchs top to bottom I would like Magnus on top, followed by Dorn or Sanguin... waaaay way at the bottom I would stick Girlyman, Horus, and finaly Lorgar the horrible treacherous zealot.
Gitsplitta wrote:Perhaps you should re-title the tread... "Celebrating 100 posts by writing a really butt-kicking thread."
Really enjoying this and I appreciate all the work that's gone into it.
I'm not really a chaos guy, and I'm really not a nurgle guy... but I've always thought Mortarian's story was fairly compelling... be interesting to see where he ends up.
awww thanks man, I really appreciated it. Makes it worthwhile! Changed the title for ya too!
And yeah I found morty to be... 'interesting' I'll say more when it's his time however!
Guitardian wrote:If I had a list of best primarchs top to bottom I would like Magnus on top, followed by Dorn or Sanguin... waaaay way at the bottom I would stick Girlyman, Horus, and finaly Lorgar the horrible treacherous zealot.
Magnus always wants to be on top, but not in the ranking way! *shudder*
I feel so...so...so, cheated... Horus had to be 1 or 2. I mean, "Horus Heresy," basically the reason for 40K... I feel so violated and abused. I'm going to go make a voodoo doll with a pineapple head, and take my exacto to it.
7th: Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones, But Russ Will Really Hurt Me.
Yep, finishing in - a still impressive - 7th, it's the peoples favourite. Magnus The Red. The Crimson King. Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The GINGER!!!
Magnus is very much a sympathy story, engaging many people with his ultimately good intentions but fall from grace. An almost Tragic Hero. I know this good intentions and convoluted story is the kind of thing I have been endorsing so far, however there's more to Magnus than just this IMHO.
I'll start off with the good; The Thousand Sons are possibly the best looking Legion there is, the whole Egyptian theme and red/blue and gold colour scheme looks great and suits their mystical imagery. Magnus himself looks suitable as well, coming across as very intimidating and an almost magical being, more so than the usual Primarch at least! The horns, the gold armour, the deep red (GINGER!!!) hair and the whacking great axe all look very cool. This brutal image also suits Magnus in that it can be misinterpreted, as are his actions. It further detaches him from humanity; fitting his character and story.
Also, Magnus has some of the most noble of ideals; trying to prevent the Heresy before it can begin and then trying to forewarn the Emperor. He ultimately would've fought for the loyalists if it were not for Russ/Horus bitch-slapping him, further benefiting his tragic story. Magnus also appeared to be misunderstood in his use of the warp, causing him to not be trusted and feared by the Imperium, whereas Magnus only sought to use it for good. Magnus also appeared to be a very 'caring' kind of guy, trying to preserve the history of conquered nations etc.
As you can see, Magnus was a good guy with good intentions, who comes across as a victim; unfairly persecuted and forced to fight for Horus. However, how much of this story and suffering did Magnus bring upon himself?
This is where I explain why, for me, Magnus only finished seventh and isn't favoured by me quite so much as he is by everyone else. It's clear Magnus is a very good guy (which I like) and has a great story and image, however I believe he's partially to blame for his own downfall due to his own flaws.
Knowledge is power (Space Wolves are also power!) is one of the key tenets of Magnus. However, he didn't know as much as he thought and it's largely this arrogance that has caused Magnus to not rate as highly as he could have. Ferrus Manus is ranked all the way down in 17th because of his arrogance! Magnus believed himself to be omniscient and the master of the warp and whilst some sympathise with him for his downfall, I partially blame him. How could he believe he was the master of something that couldn't actually be seen or properly understood?! Now I'm good at certain subjects (English, History etc.) however, I'm not so good at understanding that which doesn't exist in the same dimension, whereas Magnus thought he was.
It's not some harmless mistake either! Lets say I thought I was amazing at football and tried to do keepy-uppies in my living room, then I lost control of the ball and it broke a vase - my bad, but no big deal. Lets say Magnus was trying to do the same, but his football was the warp. Magnus just doesn't break a vase, he breaks the priceless ming vase that is the Emperors throne room and causes two Legions to fight one-another instead of prevent Horus, thereby causing half the galaxy to burn and a millennia of constant war and suffering. This CAN all be led back to Magnus, so let's be frank: he messed up. Big Time.
Knowledge is power. Assuming you know everything is just god-damn stupid.
Also, could Magnus really not have hot-footed it over to Terra to warn the Emperor about Horus?! I mean it's quite a big deal, whilst telling daddy as-soon-as-possible would be good, being able to fully warn and explain it to him is better! It's not like he was racing Horus to Terra. At the time, Horus was in a freakin' coma!! If he went to Terra himself he could have properly warned the Emperor and made him understand the situation, at least getting him to give Horus a ring and check everything is all right! Instead Magnus damns himself, his Legion, the citizens of prospero and half the Imperium. I know, flying over to Terra is easier said than done etc. but when the fate of the galaxy is at stake, wouldn't you want to do it properly!?
And when Russ went all chopity chop, stabidy stab on Magnus and his Legion why did he 1st sit back and watch them die then wade in there and give them all to the gods of Chaos? I know what his though process was (I deserve it etc.) but why would you then turn to the force which you know just turned your brother evil and has constantly manipulated and mutated you and your entire Legion?! The gods of Chaos haven't exactly been your best friends in all this, in fact, they were to blame and you know it!
Finally, what made Magnus think the warp was a play-toy?! He's seen 1st hand it's not a nice place, it's full of predators (not those predators!!), requires mass-sacrifice and he's seen the mutation it can wreak, from his own Legion and colonies he 'liberated'.
I mean, personally I'd trust a nice car more than I would an incredibly flashy car which I had to sacrifice hundreds of people to obtain!
Lets see... Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that is reluctant to be controlled? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that requires human sacrifice? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that you don't fully understand? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that your dad - the leader of the human race, the man who you respect more than anyone else and the smartest dude around - has told you not to play with? Check.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the warp doesn't seem like the most practical of tools around does it? I think Russ proved a pointy stick can do the same job but better!
This section has been filled with a lot more negatives than most of the top-tens have (and will), so why is Magnus still seventh?! Because he has such a good and almost tragic story and has so much character in himself. This could have got him 2nd or 3rd or whatnot, but because of his (ironic) arrogance and idiocy, he's down in seventh.
Magnus; full of contradictions and irony: he's so smart yet so stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanctjud wrote:He'd visit all of us and give us gifts of plaque on our shins and elbows. Maybe some boils under the left shoulderblade...
Well yeah, how about something I don't have?!
Ediin wrote:Come on Dave, Sanguinius......................
Wrong! Again. I'm expecting Ediin that it's only the guy in 1st place you'll guess correctly and that'd be after I've ranked #2!
Just Dave wrote:However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand.
One thing that a lot of people seem to simply forget/ignore is that Horus was on death's door step. Had he not accepted the deal, he would have died. So he didn't only choose to side with Chaos, he also chose to live. Also, they hadn't exactly introduced them as 'Chaos Gods' by than, they were using Erebus as a mouthpiece, a familiar face to Horus.
Maybe you can see it as a weakness in his character, or maybe you can see it as something that makes him even more 'human', that when he had to choose between life or honor, he picked life.
Just Dave wrote: Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!
I really don't mean to be snide or snarky... but really?
The entire Great Crusade and the Imperium are based around the idea that false gods and superstition have been holding back humanity and that only by being free of those concept can the human potential truly be reached. Gavriel Loken and Syndermann have like 4 chapters' worth of conversation on that subject.
The Emperor is the champion of that idea. He's the guiding light of truth, reason and science in the universe. The Marines and Primarch have sworn themselves to that ideal.
Granted, as the whole story turns into the fight between the Chaos Gods and the soon to be Emperor-God, this angle gets dropped, but in the first 3 books of the Horus Heresy, it's a very important, powerful and ever-present theme.
So the Emperor wanting to become a God is a great betrayal of everyting Horus believed in and fought for... and not only that, he's being used to accomplish this goal. Remember how shocked and well... afraid Gavriel was after he saw Jubal be possessed. He felt like his whole world had been flipped over... and that was over seeing a comrade be possessed, not seeing your father figure and liege says he endorses and emulate the things you've been bleeding and suffering to stamp out for centuries.
Hhahahahah this thread is the best! *claps hands excitedly* hahahaha more more *claps more*.....please?.....pretty please, as pretty as my favorite bird...the Raven...oooooh *claps again*
I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.
And this made WAY more sense before they (all together now!) screwed up the fluff on the Council of Nikaea.
Originally, it banned SORCERY not psykers.
It makes less sense now, and cheapens the whole story really.
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:
Still rooting for Alph ...
Me too, but I am not unrealistic there, especially as Alpharius/Omegon definitely also fall into the "We Really Don't Know Much About Them, Do We?" category...
Keep up the good work, i'm loving this thread so far. I'm glad Magnus did as well as he did; he deserved some credit for his noble intentions, even though, as you already pointed out, he screwed up quite bad. Damn those space puppies
Thanks for all the support guys, it's really appreciated and I'm glad you're also enjoying it!
I'm surprised about the lack of complaints of Magnus to be honest though! but I won't complain...
Tarkand wrote:Going back on Horus
Just Dave wrote:However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand.
One thing that a lot of people seem to simply forget/ignore is that Horus was on death's door step. Had he not accepted the deal, he would have died. So he didn't only choose to side with Chaos, he also chose to live. Also, they hadn't exactly introduced them as 'Chaos Gods' by than, they were using Erebus as a mouthpiece, a familiar face to Horus.
Maybe you can see it as a weakness in his character, or maybe you can see it as something that makes him even more 'human', that when he had to choose between life or honor, he picked life.
Just Dave wrote: Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!
I really don't mean to be snide or snarky... but really?
The entire Great Crusade and the Imperium are based around the idea that false gods and superstition have been holding back humanity and that only by being free of those concept can the human potential truly be reached. Gavriel Loken and Syndermann have like 4 chapters' worth of conversation on that subject.
The Emperor is the champion of that idea. He's the guiding light of truth, reason and science in the universe. The Marines and Primarch have sworn themselves to that ideal.
Granted, as the whole story turns into the fight between the Chaos Gods and the soon to be Emperor-God, this angle gets dropped, but in the first 3 books of the Horus Heresy, it's a very important, powerful and ever-present theme.
So the Emperor wanting to become a God is a great betrayal of everyting Horus believed in and fought for... and not only that, he's being used to accomplish this goal. Remember how shocked and well... afraid Gavriel was after he saw Jubal be possessed. He felt like his whole world had been flipped over... and that was over seeing a comrade be possessed, not seeing your father figure and liege says he endorses and emulate the things you've been bleeding and suffering to stamp out for centuries.
Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.
And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.
That's my opinion at least.
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:I agree with you about Magnus, except for the point about him flying to Terra-the point of the message was to show the Emperor that the warp could be used for good. Oh, it was an idiot thing to do no doubt, but it was done with the right intentions.
Still rooting for Alph or Morty .
That may be true, however surely (IMHO) there's a better time to use the warp for good than when the galaxy is on a knife edge. Even so, he fudged it up none-the-less!
I really don't know who's next though...
Sanctjud wrote:
full of contradictions and irony: ...so smart yet so stupid.
Just Dave wrote:Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.
And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.
Well, the point I wanted to make was that the will to live is a powerful one... let's face, if the good choice implies dying, the bad choice becomes a hell of a lot more tempting. It doesn't make it the good choice, and I'm not defending it... but yeah, considering how much ambition Horus has, I don't think he could simply accept a solution that meant he died.
The whole fact that his life was in the balance made the whole arguing between Erebus and Magnus moot IMO... Horus was going to choose to live.
And it doesn't really matter that the Emperor deserves it or not... the whole point is that Horus is shocked when he sees the Shrine World in the vision. It is has much a shock as I expected, because we actually see it in the book . I think you're downplaying it a lot. Heck, believing in the Lectio Divinatus was a punishable offense during the Great Crusade (with at the very least censure) - on orders of the Emperor.
If learning that everything you believed, everything you strive for and everything you suffered for was a lie... learning that all those soldiers under your command died for a lie and you have their blood on their hand... if that's not a good reason to rebel, than I don't know what is.
Keep in mind that I'm of the opinion Horus was played like a fool and the vision were lies to manipulate him - I don't think he was right... but I can understand how the character would come the conclusion he did, it makes sense.
However, your write-up for Horus is something I just cannot agree with.
While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.
Jimsolo wrote:While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.
I disagree. The reason for Horus downfall was not poor writing, it was to create a stupid, stupid plot. And it did, to 100%.
I especially agree about this:
The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it.
Cultist: So, we've arrived at the Serpent Lodge. Make yourself at home.
Horus: Can I ask you a few questions?
Cultist: Sure.
Horus: What does the huge 8-pointed star on the front door mean?
Cultist: It's a wheel from a groundcar which we put there for the engineer to fix.
Horus: I see. So what purpose does the huge cauldron of blood fulfil?
Cultist: It's not blood, it's Tomato juice from Emp-Mart. Why dont you lie down for a sec and drink this vial of purple innocent liquid?
Horus: Sure! Is it alcohol? I'm driving you know.
Cultist: No, it's not alcohol. Now, put on this brainwash-mindcontrol-helmet and listen to some relaxing music!
who's left in the top six? I want to place my bets. All the obvious ones were weeded out along the thread. Dorn, Alphie, and Sangie are still in the running I know, but I don't have a list of the primarchs in front of me. Little help?
I completely agree about Magnus. While he was cool, well intentioned, genuinely nice guy, he was also the wisest most well read moron in the galaxy. One bad decision and the gak hits the fan and the galaxy goes down in flames. "oops, my bad" just doesn't cut it any more. It would be a bit like George Dubyah saying "oops, heh heh, sorry folks, there were no WMDs heh heh, sorry, moving along..."
I'm looking at Alphie for #2 and Sangie as #1. My reasons are that Alpharius has possibly the most complicated character and that always makes for good fiction, and Sanguinious is the most revered religious figure in the 40k world next to da Emprah himself. Shrines for him are everywhere, even on worlds that have nothing to do with the BA otherwise. It's a bit of a 'sacrificial lamb' kind of story with him and the big E both, and we all know how much cults love a sacrifical lamb. (mmm tasty! I gotta start a cult!)
Besides that, Sangie has wings, which is just cool, definitely sets him apart, and he picked up a bloodthirster, flew it up in the air and broke its back over his knee as he landed. If that isn't an act of absolute badass I don't know what is.
On his downside, he is kind of a boring 'golden boy' personality, like many of the other spoiled little kid primarchs who got offed far back on the countdown. What he lacks in outstanding character quirks he makes up for with wings and back-broken bloodthirsters and taking the stand against Horus in his last moment.
I personally do not like BA and would never start proxying them just because they got a shiney new codex, just on principle. But their primarch was indeed the pinnacle idealism of an Angel. If the Emperor is God/Jesus, then Sangie is Michael/Gabriel... Horus obviously Lucifer. Etc. come to think of it, are there ANY works of fiction GW doesn't borrow imagery from?
No....Dorn would be *perfect* to be warmaster. He's loyal, but not too imaginative, and not really a good enough strategist to cause too much trouble even if he does rebel. Always promote loyal mediocrity over talent. Havent any of you run a military dictatorship before?
Grey Templar wrote:I run into that problem ALL the time.
me too :(
Grey Templar wrote:
When you choose you minions you want unimaginitive hunks of muscle with absolutly zero ambition and the brain of a Grox.
well.... look if they have imagination thats icing on the cake but its the zero ambition part that really makes a suitable candidate. anything you get after that is gravy
AbaddonFidelis wrote:No....Dorn would be *perfect* to be warmaster. He's loyal, but not too imaginative, and not really a good enough strategist to cause too much trouble even if he does rebel. Always promote loyal mediocrity over talent. Havent any of you run a military dictatorship before?
Just Dave wrote:Actually, he didn't pick either IMHO. technically he picked his own life, but in doing so he damned half of the human race to death and the remained to millennia of suffering. Although yes, in the material realm he was on death's door-step, but when 'they' approached him he had control over his own actions and that's why he's ranked where he is. As a person I liked Horus, but he chose himself and vengeance over the lives of the people he was supposed to protect.
And as for the Emperor, if anyone was to become a god, isn't he the one that deserves it? The current Imperium already treats him as a god and the Lectio Divinatus was becoming increasingly wide-spread at the time. I don't believe there would've been as much shock as you expect. Even so, as a god he could lead humanity out of the darkness, however Horus screwed that all up, whether or not he was intending to become a god.
Well, the point I wanted to make was that the will to live is a powerful one... let's face, if the good choice implies dying, the bad choice becomes a hell of a lot more tempting. It doesn't make it the good choice, and I'm not defending it... but yeah, considering how much ambition Horus has, I don't think he could simply accept a solution that meant he died.
The whole fact that his life was in the balance made the whole arguing between Erebus and Magnus moot IMO... Horus was going to choose to live.
And it doesn't really matter that the Emperor deserves it or not... the whole point is that Horus is shocked when he sees the Shrine World in the vision. It is has much a shock as I expected, because we actually see it in the book . I think you're downplaying it a lot. Heck, believing in the Lectio Divinatus was a punishable offense during the Great Crusade (with at the very least censure) - on orders of the Emperor.
If learning that everything you believed, everything you strive for and everything you suffered for was a lie... learning that all those soldiers under your command died for a lie and you have their blood on their hand... if that's not a good reason to rebel, than I don't know what is.
Keep in mind that I'm of the opinion Horus was played like a fool and the vision were lies to manipulate him - I don't think he was right... but I can understand how the character would come the conclusion he did, it makes sense.
I agree, Life over Death is always the initially most attractive choice and Horus was played for a fool and believed it. BELIEVED IT!
However, as a Primarch, a man who's witness masses of death and someone who's job it is to protect humanity, I still believe he should've chosen death. Maybe it's just me, but If I had to choose between mine or my friends lives to be saved, I'd choose theirs. Every time. Honestly. And as a super-human warrior I believe Horus should have been a lot more reasonable with his decision. Obviously it wasn't a normal situation, but he had the potential to think clearly and thoroughly and he didn't and for that, I criticise him. He should have known better.
Jimsolo wrote:Dave, I like you and you're a great guy.
I can agree with most of your assessments.
However, your write-up for Horus is something I just cannot agree with.
While I think all the pressure/good intentions/conflicted motives ideas are good, and I think they are what the writers intended, I do NOT see them in the writing. All the background material featuring Horus present him with no clear motive for turning evil. Horus is, in the writing, wishy-washy and two dimensional. I find him bland and dull, the stereotypical turncoat character. The whole 'plot to turn him evil' was so transparent, a child should have been able to see through it. The fact that a Primarch, a god among men, did not, is reprehensible to me. As I have said before, pride may have been a contributing factor in Horus's downfall, but the primary cause behind it was really just bad writing.
I agree, I am a great guy.
No, I'm joking, but thank you. I do agree that Horus really should've seen through the plot - hence his ranking - I liked him as a character, as a leader and as a Primarch. I like the Horus Heresy plot twist, what I don't like however is Horus' actions involving them. So yes, to a large extent I agree with you Jim!
I don't entirely blame the writing however and that he was a stereotypical turncoat (see Morty and Angron for better examples), but yeah it should've taken a bit more IMHO.
Ediin wrote:Of course, I'll be 100% wrong!
Was VERY busy yesterday so I couldn't add in another ranking, I intend to do one shortly though guys, thank and sorry!
I will point, the top six in particular has seen a significant change from my original thoughts for the rankings. Choosing who goes where in this top six is largely tricky and many of the places are very close in favour. But Anyway, on with the list!
6th: Fisting has never been more painful.
In at number six, it's the man in yellow. It's Ali G... I mean Rogal Dorn.
Where-as Gulliman is boring and Khan is kick-ass, Dorn is somewhere in-between. He's more down-to-earth than gravity, but he's not boring in doing so, infact it enhances his no-nonsense, bad ass, "my [Imperial] fist, your face" appearance. Whilst some see Rogal (yeah, me and him are on 1st name terms) a bit dull or monotonous, I see him as heroic and a true warrior and I intend to explain why...
Dorn believes in honesty - even if it means damage to himself - above all else, which is something I thoroughly approve of and often do myself. I doubt it's a coincidence that all (OK, most) the manipulative and self-centred Primarch's are the traitors. As someone who has millions of lives depending on them, I believe a Primarch should be honest. Obviously honesty doesn't work all the time, but it's ultimately the right thing in most cases. This meant that Dorn was almost certainly the most trust-worthy Primarch and simply a stand-up guy which - in the Warhammer universe in particular - are both great traits.
When Garro arrives claiming Horus to be a traitor, most Primarchs would've completely ignored him or even slapped him silly. And although Dorn did - understandably - consider such an action, ultimately he listened to Garro and rather than being ignorant or stubborn, he considered what Garro was saying and ultimately the loyalists gained from it. One thing I as a person dislike is when people blatantly refuse to consider the alternative argument (such as fan-boys) and whilst most Primarchs would've done this, Dorn didn't and for that he gains a lot of respect.
Also, in Nemesis, Dorn concludes the Master of Assassins to be Malcador and through bluffing/assuming alone gets Malcador to admit this. One of the assassins asks Dorn how he knew it and Dorn said it was simply an assumption and through taking his mask off, Malcador admits this. Dorn makes Malcador the Sigillite, the Emperors left (Primarchs are right) hand look like a fool and Malcador's realisation of this is priceless. More Priceless than mastercard. More priceless than the look on the cashiers face as you buy the Miley Cirus DVD alongside some Vaseline and tissues.
Other positives about Rogal Dorn: he valued the counsel and efforts of his father even though he knew he wasn't blood-related, Perturabo for example did otherwise. The Phalanx is cool. He looks cool, like really cool. His appearance really fits his character of an overall great and loyal guy but one that you won't want to mess with. The Imperial fists are also cool.
Dorn himself I'd argue is the most reasonable-minded Primarch, relying on proof and truth above all. He's not black and white or wholly one-sided. I was listening to some movie soundtracks earlier and this phrase popped up that some may like and really suits Dorn. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must."
For example, when he was charged with bolstering the defences of the Imperial Palace, Dorn disliked and regretted it as he marred the beauty of the Palace, however he knew it was his duty and it was necessary. Similarly, Dorn recognises that it's not the Horus he knows, his brother, leading the rebellion. He believes that Horus has been tainted and is not sound of mind and you know what? He's right. Again.
When Gulliman oh-so-popularly introduced the Codex Astartes, Dorn fiercely opposed it but upon seeing how close he and his brothers were to another civil war, he conceded and accepted the Codex Astartes, once again proving his wisdom and reason.
However, Dorn is also well recognised as a military genius and rightly so. He led the defences of Terra before and during the siege, his intelligence and mastery of battle and defence vital to holding off superior forces led by a skilled enemy. A fleet-based chapter makes a lot of sense and suits the role of the Adeptus Astartes, as does the principle of over-whelming firepower. Dorn was reasonable of heart, mind and sword.
Many Primarchs have a clear theme; Sanguinus is of an Angel, Corax of a Bird, Mortarion of the Grim Reaper, Angron as rage () but Rogal Dorn is of a knight. Pure in mind and body. Virtuous. A devastating warrior. A Great Leader. A beacon of truth and light. In The Grim Darkness of the future, Rogal Dorn is a proverbial torch, although the gold armour helps with this...
Dorn has all the qualities I like: Honesty, Loyalty, Reason, Martial and Military Prowess, Leadership, Bravery, the list goes on...
However, he's not perfect, which although this can add character, to me it simply lessens Dorn to an extent:
- Pain Gloves, a bit 'emo' for my liking...
- Iron Cage, expecting a fair fight?! Really? That's like expecting manliness from Christiano Ronaldo.
- His death is also underwhelming, dying aboard a Chaos ship to no-one in particular is a bit underwhelming. Whilst he did attack said ship for noble reasons, I'd rather he had a more suitably nasty enemy to die to, such as a Daemon Prince, Avatar, Greater Daemon etc... Not some random Chaos Space Marine(s).
However, Dorn's weaknesses and flaws (although very slight) do help add to his character to an extent, helping to understand his feeling of failure in that he failed his Legion, The Imperium and The Emperor. This shows Dorn also has emotion beneath his intelligence and rock-hard exterior.
In at number 6, for being Knightly and really winding up Perturabo, it's Rogal Dorn.
I think the winged man will be next he's to good to be in the top spot top 2 will be Alpherius #2 and Mortarion #1 seeing as they are just full of greatness.
Melissia wrote:Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
I suppose I'll produce my own whenever I hit 3k, it should be amusing.
As has been recognised, we're now in the top five and Ediin (and most others it seems) is still predicting it wrong! In Alphabetical order the remaining Primarchs are:
Alpharius
Corax
Konrad Kurze
Mortarion
Sanguinus
and next up is:
5th: Batting For The Other Team.
Will that do Alpharius? The picture, not the ranking of course...
Yep, it's another contentious one. Alpharius/Omegon are in at number 5.
The Alpha Legion are, without doubt, cool. Their whole manipulative, deceiving tactics are both very intelligent and very effective, made all the better by pissing off Gulliman. The idea of the Great Crusade is to unite all the sections of humanity and if the Alpha Legion's tactics prevent collateral damage then all power to them. They don't need to crush an entire sector when they can do it with one shot.
This also makes them a hugely interesting faction within the Horus Heresy and current 40K universe. We don't know what the Alpha Legions intentions were during the Horus Heresy, we can presume it's following the Cabal and the Legion novel basically confirms this, but we ourselves create this confusion as we simply don't know what's true or false about the Alpha Legion. No-one outside it knows they even have 2 freakin' primarchs!
That's like someone not knowing one of their sons exists and not just due to Madonna adopting/stealing the blighter!
Wait... Chaos = Madonna? There's a new theory...
And now, we don't even know if Alpharius is alive!
Within the modern 40K universe we don't know much - if anything - of the Alpha Legion and their motivations. The Imperium has even proclaimed them destroyed multiple times! How you can not like this aspect of the Alpha Legion is beyond me...
Then there's the imagery Alpharius follows; that of the hydra. For a fighting force, this is a great and effective concept. One of Horus' favourite tactics was a spear-tip to cut off the head/leader of the enemy and leave them confused and disorganised, however this cannot be done with the Alpha Legion. You simply cannot cut off it's head without it being replaced and this isn't due to Chaos mutation either!
Further on the list of positives about Alpharius is his actions when he was found by the great crusade; he boarded Horus' ship and made it to the bridge, whereby he dodged Horus' shots and his followers being cut down and met Horus face-to-face where they both rejoiced at seeing one another! That's awesome! He knew a Primarch was coming, he knew which ship was his, where the bridge was, managed to board it and dodge all that fire! Alpharius could only have made this moment better if instead of him and Horus embracing, Alpharius kneed him in his gonads and said "that's for shooting at me. Brother." that would've been awesome! Have you also ever considered where Omegon was at this time? Actually, on does Ferrus have balls of steel? I know, with this and madonna I'm doing a lot of 40K theorising today, inspired by the mystery of the Alpha Legion I guess!
So, as you can see by Rogal Dorn, I respect honour and loyalty, striving to do things for the greater good and for the good of the people. Ultimately, although he turned traitor/cracked a few billion eggs to do so, Alpharius was striving to do the right thing/make one helluva an omelet. He sacrificed his ideals, his honour, his reputation and his father in order to try and save the galaxy. Alpharius realised how much of a cruddy race humanity is (the Imperium and Big Brother is evidence of this) and was willing to sacrifice them to save the galaxy. To me, that earns a whole lot of respect!
He sacrificed everything he had (except hundreds of thousands of super human warriors) in order to save the galaxy. And although he failed, I personally believe that in the current 40K Alpharius/Omegon are trying to destroy both humanity and chaos through killing factions on both sides.
Magnus wanted to help humanity, however he turned traitor and turned to Chaos. Alpharius wanted to help the galaxy and didn't technically (seemingly anyway) turn Chaos to do so. Whereas Magnus kicks himself in the crotch, Alpharius kicks both Horus and The Emperor in the crotch!
Alpharius saw and accepted the flaw of the Great Crusade and realised the flaws to his father and brothers, however he tried to look past them and shape a brighter future - as the Primarchs were ultimately intended to. Some Primarchs blindly followed the Emperor (Ultramarines, Fists), some turned traitor (Word Bearers, Luna Wolves), some just turned to killing everything (Iron Warriors), some just sucked (Iron Hands, Dark Angels) whereas ultimately Alpharius strived to help the galaxy and Imperium. For which he gets uber-kudos.
Similarly, whilst some of the Primarchs had uber-special abilities such a Magnus, Sanguinus, Ferrus etc. Alpharius was just a very smart and very good guy. I know there's two of him/them, but both of them are still very smart/good guys but neither are anything special except in intellect. This adds more character to Alpharius IMHO and makes me like him for his noble intentions even more as he, above all others, would've struggled to achieve them.
So why is he only ranked 5th? I admit, he could have easily been within or leading the top three, as could almost any of the final five (except he who is placed fourth... ) and writing this up makes me like him even more, however I feel he doesn't quite have the depth or heroism of some others.
For example, in order to say hello to Horus he sacrificed some of his followers. In order to punch the Nurthene he sacrificed much of the Geno's. Whilst you can argue that he's doing this for good reasons and such, it's still very, very coldhearted. Yes, he may be doing it for all the right reasons and sacrifices are needed etc. but it's still a very callous approach to the lives of others.
A big no-no for me is also how he MAY have been killed by Gulliman. He displayed arrogance and like many other primarchs, this could've been his down-fall. Ultimately, he may have been allowing Gulliman to seemingly kill him (remember, his kill is unconfirmed), he still made a mistake which Gulliman fully exploited - and credit to him.
Finally, he further sacrificed lives in order to prove a point, such as when he changed his tactics because it would be 'too easy'. For us, the player, they really are Toy Soldiers that we can expend and abuse. However, to Alpharius they're his sons, his greatest weapon and his greatest supporters and IMHO he should really be a bit more careful with them. I mean, a little bit of super-glue and we fix our toy-soldiers. Glue doesn't work so well on Space Marines however...
For being so kind, yet so cold-hearted it's Alpharius. Or Omegon? And Omegon? Neither?OK, it's supposed to be Alpharius. Who? No not him! The other one...
I kind of thought that Alpharius listened to the cabal, but manipulated events in order to have them turn out the way they did, in order to buy humanity the time it needed to get it's own gak together. I kind of saw him as kicking Horus and the Cabal in the balls, but it could just be me.
This thread gets better all the time. I have to say you've sold me on most of them. I am very surprised that corax of all people is in the top four.
Clearly you know some things about him that I don't, which, admittedly, wouldn't take much.
I agree on most with Alpahrius, but didnt he belived the Cabal to easy. Yes I know that was hell of a vision, he but still a vision.
The Cabal said, if you join Horus he will win and destroy Chaos.
He joined Chaos and the Emperor won. So what do we think about the rest of that vision?
Alpahrius knew that the emperor is the worst enemy of chaos not the cabal, so why not still help/trust him?
Every morning I log in and check this thread... waiting on the next pick. It's even better than watching the NFL draft with all the tense anticipation.
I dunno much about Kurze or Corax, but between Morty and Sangie I still place my bet for Sangie as #1. Now that Alphie and Dorn are knocked out, I have to pick Morty as #2 since I don't know much to make an edumacated bet on Corax or Kurze.
I think the fatal flaw of Alpharius/Omegon is going to be their supreme confidence AND their secrecy.
I think that they are playing along with the Cabal, putting THEM on their list of "Xenos Hazards".
I think that they think they know best, and that they tried to stop Horus, save the Emperor AND humanity, and couldn't quite pull it all off in the end.
So, I'll take that number 5.
After all, with us being there... you'll never see it coming now!
Look, dude, this is the internet. Everything said here is someone's opinion. Everyone recognizes that. Nobody needs to be explicitly stating that what they say is their opinion. It's a given.
You don't need to be editing other peoples' posts just to add what everyone already knows.
Gitsplitta wrote:This thread has become required reading for all those new to dakka. Just watch me... I'll recommend it!
I love this guy.
Ediin wrote:
SaintHazard wrote:Ediin... you will never be right. :(
Even when there's only one left to go, through some cruel twist of fate, you'll still get it wrong.
Okay, so I was wrong, but eventually I have to be right.
Mortarion is next!
It's a conspiracy! Soon members of the Illuminati and FBI agents will come and take me to Area 51 to study my extreme bad luck.
Next one's Mortarion. I'll be right this time. Promise.
Oh god, Ediin's made a bet again. Are you sure you're not just stupid rather than unlucky?
Dark Scipio wrote:I agree on most with Alpahrius, but didnt he belived the Cabal to easy. Yes I know that was hell of a vision, he but still a vision.
The Cabal said, if you join Horus he will win and destroy Chaos.
He joined Chaos and the Emperor won. So what do we think about the rest of that vision?
Alpahrius knew that the emperor is the worst enemy of chaos not the cabal, so why not still help/trust him?
I was under the impression that it was a vision of the two possible outcomes and rather than joining Horus causing an insta-win, that Alphy had to help him succeed, but obviously didn't enough...
nickmund wrote:didnt expect mortarion to be so high up the list that fart breathing wierdo must be pulling some strings somwhere
By fart breathing weirdo he means Mortarion, not me. Right?
Alpharius wrote:I think the fatal flaw of Alpharius/Omegon is going to be their supreme confidence AND their secrecy.
I think that they are playing along with the Cabal, putting THEM on their list of "Xenos Hazards".
I think that they think they know best, and that they tried to stop Horus, save the Emperor AND humanity, and couldn't quite pull it all off in the end.
So, I'll take that number 5.
After all, with us being there... you'll never see it coming now!
Wow, I'm pleased you 'agree' with my assessment Alpharius! In all honesty I recognised you as a smart bloke but it's also really good to see that you're not just a deluded fan-boy, not that I expected it.
But yeah, I completely agree that they may have been trying to save everyone at once (and couldn't quite pull it off) - good assessment I reckons. Another time, on another thread, I'll ask you what you think of their current motives...
Anyways, I'm going to try to add to this later tonight (on my new Laptop!!!) however first I need to get some other things out of the way though. Not that you guys aren't at the top of my priorities... Honest. Thanks again for the support though ladies. Update will be tonight or maybe tomorrow...
Jesting, carry on...
I love Bullfrog however; I reckon you should get your avatar to be the standard bullfrog shifting to develop claws etc. Dungeon Keeper 2 Style. 
[++SUBJECT TERMINATED BY THE HOLY INQUISITION DUE 
) and writing this up makes me like him even more, however I feel he doesn't quite have the depth or heroism of some others.
?