I do think it's a worthwhile distraction technique - your enemy can't just ignore the spods, in case they get lucky and do serious shooting damage. And if he's shooting the spods then that's less dakka coming at your mobile troops.

But of course the downside is that your spods become a lot more expensive.

When i get around to building my spods, i'll definitely be magnetising a weapon attachment point on each, so that I can experiment with tactics like this.

Well, the chapterhouse spod has a convenient weapon arm...

I've modelled my first couple with the twin-linked deathspitters -- cheap, accurate, and synergise well with the ripper tentacles. I figure the way to use them is to aim to DS into positions where you can get some rear or side armour shots on tanks if possible.

hmmm i have to disagree with your thoughts on Zoanthropes
if you are up against marines/guard.
A hive guard ain't guna get through that super tough Land raider, a brood of these can-openers will munt tanks, I do agree however with their poor range. That's what spores are for ;D

I'm with Ian Sturrock with the TL deathspitters on spods. Cheaper than a venom cannon and they can be used to either shoot contents of a transport or as a last ditch attempt at getting a much needed glance or pen. I have had some success with this particular build, though I have to admit I haven't tried out the VC option.

Something I'd suggest is considering stuff like Devourer-armed Termgants in Mycetic Spores. They're going to be expensive for twenty, but you might as well the best bang for your buck. 60 S4 AP- shots are going to make a mess of any infantry they hit.

So I plan to begin testing out on Vassal a nearly all MC shooty list, and I'm curious as to how well it fares against the new Dark Eldar. Against most armies, spamming TMCs would provide Target Saturation enough to overwhelm and destroy them, but any basic DE unit with poisonn weapons can take on a TMC with fair ease. However, taking large amounts of TL Devourers and HVCs will allow decent ease of killing DE vehicles (due to open topped to cancel out lack of AP and Vencom Cannon subtraction, respectively).

Example list:
Tyrant - Wings, Old Adversary, 2 TL Devourers
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Venomthropes
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Harpy - TL Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines
Harpy - TL Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines
Carnifex - 2 TL Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines

2 HVCs
48 S6 AP-
8 S8 AP4

Shots a turn, All the big shooties have a cover save due to Venomthropes, Venomthropes can hide behind the massive bulk of their allies and possibly be FNP'd to ensure survival.

With this setup, once in range I can see 4 Vehicles dropping a turn, the concern is getting the weapons in range before something pops out and rapid fires you causing 6-7 wounds to throw on your 3+ saves.

*matthewbland282* wrote:hmmm i have to disagree with your thoughts on Zoanthropes
if you are up against marines/guard.
A hive guard ain't guna get through that super tough Land raider, a brood of these can-openers will munt tanks, I do agree however with their poor range. That's what spores are for ;D

Each play group varies. In mine if I'm in range to zap a loyalist LR with a Zolanthrope I am also in range of a psychic hood. Even some of our IG players get them through Witch/Demon hunters. So for me zolanthropes aren't my elite choice of well, choice.

Lukus83 wrote:I'm with Ian Sturrock with the TL deathspitters on spods. Cheaper than a venom cannon and they can be used to either shoot contents of a transport or as a last ditch attempt at getting a much needed glance or pen. I have had some success with this particular build, though I have to admit I haven't tried out the VC option.

Any reason for them being TL Deathspitters? Devourers are the same cost, same range, twice the shots and higher strength.

Also - any advice against Dark Eldar? My old buddy who I used to play against all the time, who quit when I did, has decided to jump back into the hobby on the Dark Eldar bandwagon. I realize my TMCs are going to take the hurt against them, so I'm looking for ways to take down transports before they become a problem.

You can't get Twin-Linked Devourers on a Mycetic Spore.

Oh, on a spore. That's what I get for not paying attention. I saw 'twin linked deathspitter' and assumed it was about TMCs.

What an awesome, awesome thread! I've learned so much from you guys advices!

Although i haven't played around too much with the different units yet, i've had some good AND bad experiences.

@Reserves
It's a shame you can't rely much on Reserves. I really had hoped there was some potential in these, but i've too often seen it down the drain due to bad reserve rolls. Furthermore, having an army that excells in assault, it's hardly worth it - at all. Bad reserve rolls, and having your important units picked off one by one, i'd hardly ever recommend Reserve-based armies.

Last edition codex, Lictors seemed alot more solid from getting to assault in the same turn they arrive. Now, they're worthless in every single way, taking up an important Elite slot, being easily ID'ed in the open, or from Power Weapons in Melee. Not even the +1 Reserve roll seems worth it!

The main issue about having anything Deep Struck, i feel, is the lack of shooties. The Zoan @ Spod holds some potential, but as long as the rules indicates that the unit HAS to be placed as soon as the dice is rolled, they - together with everything else - seems too unrealiable!

@Ymgarls
On the other hand, i've had such such great succes with Ymgarls. I feel they're worth every penny, and i'd take them any day over any other Elite. Their psychological impact alone plays a HUGE roll in games with a decent levels of terrain, and being able to swich between S, T and A's just makes them one nasty unit. With Tervigons around, added FnP they just mangle everything - even potential against vehicles!

@Raveners
I too would like to hear more about these guys. I haven't had much luck with them from reserves (with shooters), but alone by having those nasty 4 attacks, i feel they have a good potential. Giving them shooters, though, doesn't seem too reliable. I feel they excell too much in their speed, and should be packed with ST's and Rending Claws. But like so many other of the Tyranids T4 creatures, they can be easily insta'ed.

@Psykers(?)
Quick question, though; Against armies capable of denying us our Psychic Powers, how do we properly deal with these kinds of armies/units? I've had great experience fielding the D-leaper, with a lucky It's-After-Me-roll and having the psyker within 12" of a Shadow-I.T.W. creature. But as i recall it, the Libraian for once, can use his anti-psyker powers from 24", whilst the Shadow-I.T.W. requires 12". Well, base line, and the reason for my question, is that alot (ALOT!) of these strategies here are heavily based on having psychic powers available, such as cata-FnP (or ANY of the Sw-Lords powers for that matter!). Being confronted by anti-psykers, having to rely on Deathleapers, praying for a good It's-after-me-roll, taking up an EXTREMELY important Elite-slot in the process, and needing to have the psyker within 12" seems very unreliable! But on the other hand, having about half - if not more - of your psychic powers denied all the time, could mean that your units are in for a hurting (Not to mention having our Zoan's affected by these!).

- So how do we deal with these annoying anti-psyker units?


Regards
Bill'

king88mob wrote:
I also run a Hive Commander Tyrant and have had great luck with outflanking the hormagaunts.

Yes, yes, yes! A thousand times yes! One of the absolute best uses for the Hive Commander Outflank move I've found is a monstrous brood of Hormagaunts coming on and sweeping away everything they touch.

YMMV on the last part depending on how you run them, and how many you take. I use a full 30 Adrenal/Toxin Hormagaunts for this, and they are absolutely horrifying. Very expensive though, and you have to consider that they are more or less replacing things like Genestealers/Ymgarls/Raveners, so bear that in mind when list-building. They are also quite stunning when you run them up the board from the start of the game, provied you've got a Tervigon to babysit them with Catalyst.

Just thought I would let the readers know of a new list I have used and had some really good success with. Only played once, but the theory seems to work on the table as well as in my head. Had a little PM discussion with Shep who helped me fine tune the idea (who by the way is a great source of info for competitive play in general...I suggest new and veteran players alike to read some of his threads and posts) and it worked well.

So going back a step. Since the new nids came out I wanted to run a DS list. The problem I have been encountering over and over again is that not only does it rely heavily on going second, but even when it happens, your opponent has a few ways of really mitigating the initial damage...which is really the whole point of the DS. Moving vehicles 12" and popping smoke is really tough on ymgarls, zoanthropes etc.

Then I recently had what I would call an epiphany (though others may call it common sense). The only reason my opponent could do all this was because I was running a pure reserves based last. There was nothing on the table giving my opponent full mastery of what was happening while I was waiting to show. Now what if you design a list to feature some really nasty deepstriking elements, backed up with solid ground-pounding firepower? It severely limits your opponents options. Add some hive guard and a tervigon (2 of the most powerful units in the codex which get missed in DS lists) for some early transport popping power as well as a unit of 20 infiltrating stealers (stealers were Sheps idea). This is a great setup. Your opponent wants to shoot then they have to absorb hits from the stealers in cc turn 2 (especially hard to remove if they have FnP from the tervigon). The want to run and pop smoke avoiding the barrage of fire from the hive guard then you have made them pop it before your DS stuff arrives and they aren't damaging your initial force either. It's a win-win situation. And as Shep pointed out to me stealers also stop infantry bubble wrap screens around vehicles very effectively.

So I think that's the idea behind it. The 2k list I used is below.

Tyrant
Wings
Hive commander
2x Brainleech devourers

2x hive guard
2x hive guard
2x hive guard

10 gaunts

18x dakka gaunts
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Tervigon
Catalyst

20x genestealers

Carnifex
2x TL brainleech devourers
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Carnifex
2x TL brainleech devourers
spod w/ TL deathspitter

Trygon

Now this is just a variant. There is actually a lot of room for change at 2k. The base (no trygon or dakka gaunts) take the list down to 1570pts so you can put different choices in as you see fit. I personally will keep varying the final few points, though I had a great game yesterday with this build.

So in short the few things that really seem to work well in this list:

1. DS hard hitters can cause serious damage the turn they arrive.

2. Initial deployment of tough models/large units means you aren't as reliant on turn 2.

3. The initial deployment really screws with target priority since hive guard and stealers can crack transports early on. One is fast, one has range. Finding a way to crack both before turn 2 should be very tough (FnP and cover saves are compulsory for stealers).

If anyone can see any weaknesses in this list that I may have missed let me know. I wanna run it against our local IG vet (the most competitive and successful of our group by far) asap to get a feel for how this list does under serious pressure.

Has anyone tried a mixed DS + start-on-board list that starts out with just 2+ Armour Save creatures? Hive Tyrants with HVCs + Tyrannofexes with Rupture Cannons can put some hurt on your enemy right across the board, while the Tyrant(s) ensure most of your reserves show up on time. With 2+ on everything, you render most of your opponent's guns useless till your reserves arrive.

Then I recently had what I would call an epiphany (though others may call it common sense). The only reason my opponent could do all this was because I was running a pure reserves based last. There was nothing on the table giving my opponent full mastery of what was happening while I was waiting to show.

This is a really good point and in some ways is how I played the old codex to decent effect in 5ed (outflanking instead of DS but still a very shooty core that was always deployed).

Its something Fritz of way of saim hann has espoused for awhile as well. And there's a gent in the seattle area that loves what he calls the reserve gambit that also relys on a deployable, hardy core along with flexible reserves.

Is there weaknesses? Certainly. What drops in has to be able to finsih what the other guys started, cause invariably they will be wiped or non issues rather quickly. I've also had meh results with single tervigon -- saavy opponents waste no time eliminating it (of deployed) or minimzing its effect (if it outflanks). However when I've played this type of list well -- its hard to counter. The worse part about it is slow play in tournaments -- it absolutely needs every turn to win (goes without saying but that has been an issue I have ran into occaionally).

I played against a straken/al rahem list recently with something similar to this (not as much DS pressure though to be honest and no hive commander either) and found had I deployed a bit better I could have won the game.

Has anyone tried a mixed DS + start-on-board list that starts out with just 2+ Armour Save creatures? Hive Tyrants with HVCs + Tyrannofexes with Rupture Cannons can put some hurt on your enemy right across the board, while the Tyrant(s) ensure most of your reserves show up on time. With 2+ on everything, you render most of your opponent's guns useless till your reserves arrive.

Its an idea but I still think you want some early assault pressure from a big block of stealers or gargoyles or similar. Also that 2+ is only situationally better -- there's still lotsa armies that can toss significant amounts of AP2.

Last edition codex, Lictors seemed alot more solid from getting to assault in the same turn they arrive. Now, they're worthless in every single way, taking up an important Elite slot, being easily ID'ed in the open, or from Power Weapons in Melee. Not even the +1 Reserve roll seems worth it!

I find this romanticizing of the old lictor to be quite funny. The old lictors were horrible. 80 points for 2W assault based critter that couldn't scare a SW long fang if it tried. Remember too that there assault after arrival required a dangerous terrain check, you couldn't move and that the lictor was not fleet -- so you had to rely on your oppnent to give you a spot to deploy, you didn't scatter to far and hope you got a good roll on difficult terrain. Then factor in how assaults work in 5ed compared to 4ed -- there's little chance a single 2W lictor can survive 1 round of assault against most units.

I'm not saying the current lictor is amazing either, but I much prefer the addition of fleet, a shooting attack, an extra W, ability to add two buddies and a 15 point price reduction over the dubious chance to assault out of a terrain peice you deepstruck into. If they had been fast attack choice I would rate them as competitive. Its really the slotting into elites that hurt them the most in my opinion.

The new Lictor is an incredible improvement taken on its deployment alone. Then there's the Flesh Hooks. Two of them are practically an Assault Cannon, and they provide much needed Assault Grenades. Bog a unit down in combat with a Lictor, then charge in with a mop-up crew while the Lictor bugs out using Hit and Run.

I find this romanticizing of the old lictor to be quite funny. The old lictors were horrible. 80 points for 2W assault based critter that couldn't scare a SW long fang if it tried. Remember too that there assault after arrival required a dangerous terrain check, you couldn't move and that the lictor was not fleet -- so you had to rely on your oppnent to give you a spot to deploy, you didn't scatter to far and hope you got a good roll on difficult terrain. Then factor in how assaults work in 5ed compared to 4ed -- there's little chance a single 2W lictor can survive 1 round of assault against most units.

I'm not saying the current lictor is amazing either, but I much prefer the addition of fleet, a shooting attack, an extra W, ability to add two buddies and a 15 point price reduction over the dubious chance to assault out of a terrain peice you deepstruck into. If they had been fast attack choice I would rate them as competitive. Its really the slotting into elites that hurt them the most in my opinion.

Honestly, i just don't find them breath-taking. Taken into consideration how many other more reliable Elite choices you've got as a Tyranid, i'd hardly pick them. I'd much rather fill the slots with Ymgarls and Hive Guards, which seems much more reliable.

And, YES, i might've romanticed the old one quite a bit. My apologies. Not really my point either. But frankly, it annoys me they aren't better as they are (compared to so many others). They're one of my favorite units, style-wise, and i've tried to implement them in alot of setups already, having little to no succes what so ever doing so. But still, you're the expert here, not me!


Frankly, i was more interested in hearing your takes on tactics involving enemy anti-psykers and being denied your psychic tests, hence many tactics here involving psykers

Frankly, i was more interested in hearing your takes on tactics involving enemy anti-psykers and being denied your psychic tests, hence many tactics here involving psykers

Fair enough Deathleaper is an option but only works against hoods (and note that 'its after me' doesn't have a range, its in effect as long as deathleaper is alive -- you are mixing it up with 'what was that' which affects difficult terrain tests of units within 12"). Rune priests and eldar don't key off of leadership, nor does the more rare grey knight and sister abilities.

I am personally gravitating away from units that utilize psychic tests, preferring tyranid primes or parasite over tyrants; and MC attacks + hive guard over zoathrope shooting. Then its just a matter of being able to handle not having catalyst readily available in certain matchups.

So I'm back to building my `Nids against for an escalation league at the FLGS. One of the things I'm looking at is my armless Hive Tyrant, and trying to decide if I want a normal Tyrant or a Swarmlord. The main abilities I'm keying in on for each is the normal Tyrant letting one unit of Troops (hormagaunts or devilgaunts) Outflank and giving units within 6" Preferred Enemy, vs the Swarmlord's 18" range of giving One unit Preferred Enemy and his person pwnage in melee. Now that the books been out awhile, how are people comparing the two nowadays?

I changed my Tyrant to a Swarmlord and have never regretted it.
(Thanks Janthkin)

If it is not winged, give it 4 swords, that's my view.

Given the choice - Swarmlord. He will be worth his points when fielded correctly, unless you're facing IG or the new DE...in which case he'll get shot down before getting to do anything in CC (probably).

I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

Shrubs wrote:I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

It's important to understand his role - he is a force-multiplier first (improved Reserves + 18" range on his Preferred Enemy; psychic powers when he gets in range), and COUNTER-assault second. He marches to the middle of the board, accompanying your Tervigons and/or Tyrannofexes, and makes elite assault units/characters a bit more wary of coming to pick on the large bugs.

I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

The double TL-Devourer Flyrant though I'm a big fan of. It has mobility, with Tervigons it has Durability, it has firepower, and it is still nasty in close combat.

Pvt. Jet wrote:I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

It really depends what else you have in your list. His job isn't to get to your enemy's deployment zone (although, barring Dawn of War, getting there shouldn't be a problem); it's to enhance Reserves rolls (which Ymgarl, outflanking 'stealers, and pod-based units really appreciate), to provide a long-range targeted buff (gargoyles REALLY benefit from Preferred Enemy, and aren't chained to a 6" bubble), and to protect the other big bugs from things like Mephiston. He's NOT the mobile threat in the list - he's there to make your mobile units better, and to keep your static units alive. If you aren't using a lot of static units, or aren't using a lot of mobile units that could use a buff, then he's not the best choice.

Janthkin wrote:

Shrubs wrote:I played swarmie vs DE this weekend and he was too slow. I'll contintue testing him for a bit since I really liked his powers.

It's important to understand his role - he is a force-multiplier first (improved Reserves + 18" range on his Preferred Enemy; psychic powers when he gets in range), and COUNTER-assault second. He marches to the middle of the board, accompanying your Tervigons and/or Tyrannofexes, and makes elite assault units/characters a bit more wary of coming to pick on the large bugs.

Thx for the perspective. The best thing he did was giving FC to the raveners when they charged the mandrakes, useful stuff. Second best was rerolling the flank of the 17 genestealers. Of course, his presence on the midfield helped as well.

Since when does the swarmlord need to reach all the way to the other side of the board?

against anything but a gunline, he should effect the game heavily by threatening everything around him, he's pretty dangerous against pretty much anything in the game and can have a ton of extra wounds attached to him, as well as the cover save.

I mean, he's pretty expensive, but he's one of the most potent units around.

Janthkin wrote:

Pvt. Jet wrote:I just think he's slow for how many points you spend on him. He won't get to your opponent's deployment zone by endgame, and even with him throwing out preferred enemy and such on friendly units is that really worth a 340 point unit? I mean buying a Tervigon for 170 just for pooping out Gants and FNP is rough enough, but double that... for similar effects? I think it's more psychological than anything else.

It really depends what else you have in your list. His job isn't to get to your enemy's deployment zone (although, barring Dawn of War, getting there shouldn't be a problem); it's to enhance Reserves rolls (which Ymgarl, outflanking 'stealers, and pod-based units really appreciate), to provide a long-range targeted buff (gargoyles REALLY benefit from Preferred Enemy, and aren't chained to a 6" bubble), and to protect the other big bugs from things like Mephiston. He's NOT the mobile threat in the list - he's there to make your mobile units better, and to keep your static units alive. If you aren't using a lot of static units, or aren't using a lot of mobile units that could use a buff, then he's not the best choice.

Well, that seems about right to me! Not being the most experienced at 40k, i might be wrong about what i'm about to say, but what seems like the best strategy against the Tyranids is taking out the MC's fast, first by range, then finishing off the last 1-2 wounds in assault, with the extra dices etc. The sad truth is that with improper lists, it may be possible to pick out the 'nids, and have them served on a golden pladder, one by one.
- If i get Janthkin right, what the Swarmlord is capable of is preventing such things from happening. Either from staying in range of possible assaulting enemy squads, or simply by psychological impact. I've even had a 10-man honor guard squad with Libraian assaulting my Swarmlord, with only 2 wounds left - 50 dices against 2 wounds! And he took a single wound - that's a single would, ladies and gentlemen!

Having such a fellow backing up your MC's sounds like a hell of a tactic to me, and also having all the nifty bonuses sure makes him worth every penny. If they don't know his worth in CC, they're gonna learn - and if they do, they'll most likely think twice about getting too close!

Billinator wrote:Well, that seems about right to me! Not being the most experienced at 40k, i might be wrong about what i'm about to say, but what seems like the best strategy against the Tyranids is taking out the MC's fast, first by range, then finishing off the last 1-2 wounds in assault, with the extra dices etc. The sad truth is that with improper lists, it may be possible to pick out the 'nids, and have them served on a golden pladder, one by one.

That's the best part about the new Tyranid list - it's loaded with threat vectors. You want to kill the MCs, as they are often a significant part of the strategy, but you also have to worry about that giant infiltrating 'stealer squad which WILL assault you on turn 2, plus that swarm of poisonous gargoyles who'll hit you on turn 2, plus the outflanking 'stealer squad that could show up on either side starting on turn 2, plus the Ymgarl who are probably sleeping someplace inconvenient and might wake up on turn 2, plus the Zoanthropes falling from the sky on turn 2....

What this codex got best is the feel of a Tyranid attack - real threats coming from almost every direction, with the potential of landing on you simultaneously. Good luck with your target priority decisions.

Yeah, the only people that truly fail with the new nids don't understand the concept of pressure units and multiple threat vectors. Build your list right and you'll scare the pants off everyone.

Incidentally the new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook FAQ is up and I think Tyranid players will be interested to read answers regarding exiting destroyed transports, and hitting vehicles in close combat.

Also, while reading it, it occurred to me that thanks to Stealth a Lictor can appear within 6" of a Venomthrope and it gets a Cv4+.

So I'm going reserve-heavy in my 2011 Tyranid tourney lists. And for 'Ard Boyz, I'm actually thinking of running a unit of bonesword Shrikes. Their big upsides and big downsides are well-documented, but I think they might blossom a bit in a reserves army at that points level.

They gain some durability thanks to the army build. Drop them conservatively and (barring horrific reserves rolls) they probably won't attract a ton of attention considering all the other threats up in my opponent's face.

And they bring two useful things to the table. They give the army some post-drop speed, which can sometimes be an issue in pod armies. And they give me some anti-hard target/anti-deathstar capacity in the absence of the Swarmlord that doesn't involve me throwing my valuable Trygons or Tyrant at something.

My 'Ard Boyz build might go a few different ways, and playtesting might tell me differently, but right now I'm kinda intrigued by what Shrikes can bring to the table.

gorgon wrote:So I'm going reserve-heavy in my 2011 Tyranid tourney lists. And for 'Ard Boyz, I'm actually thinking of running a unit of bonesword Shrikes. Their big upsides and big downsides are well-documented, but I think they might blossom a bit in a reserves army at that points level.

They gain some durability thanks to the army build. Drop them conservatively and (barring horrific reserves rolls) they probably won't attract a ton of attention considering all the other threats up in my opponent's face.

And they bring two useful things to the table. They give the army some post-drop speed, which can sometimes be an issue in pod armies. And they give me some anti-hard target/anti-deathstar capacity in the absence of the Swarmlord that doesn't involve me throwing my valuable Trygons or Tyrant at something.

My 'Ard Boyz build might go a few different ways, and playtesting might tell me differently, but right now I'm kinda intrigued by what Shrikes can bring to the table.

I used 3 rending shrikes with a Barbed Strangler at a 3 game 'ard boys tourney last month, I loved them, got a fresh bag of wings from forgeworld last week, going to try them again. Some games I'd DS them, some just have fly on reserve Or run them behind gargoyles(my favorite choice)

For more educational purposes, than as a suggestion, i'd like to hear your take on this setup;

HQ:
Swarmlord
- 2x Guard
Parasite of M.

Elite:
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Ymgarl x10

Troops:
Gaunt x10
Gaunt x10
Tervi
- (AG, TS, Cata, Large)
Tervi
- (AG, TS, Cata, Large)

Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x10
Gargoyle x10

Heavy Support:
Trygon
Trygon

Total: 2000 pts

Basically, the main philosophy here is to have a list that utilizes the Swarmlords to his full extend. If people have ever faced him in Melee, they're much unlikely to do so again. (He's just evil - pure evil!). And around the arrival of Ymgarls, a psycological impact, aswell as having all the support available to throw on a unit.

Though, only having 2 small 10-squad Garg's bothers me, and in such small numbers, probably won't last a round. But i wasn't sure where to take points from to fill in some more!
- Also, the lack of speed on the Swarmlord is a concern aswell. For example; having Gargs lock enemies up in melee, to have the Swarmlord aid them later on would be much prefeered. Having that little Gargs makes me doubt the succes of this!

As intended, what i think makes this list shine are the Ymgarls, as they've been a huge part of all the games i've won so far. They're just able to fill so many roles, and with all the support-based units, they're gonna shine once they hit the board (which was the main philosophy in this list).


Suggestions/Thoughts?

This could be a horible suggestion, but you could drop a whole trygon make the remainding one a prime and get another 20 gargoyles

Or aren't Ymgarls ~3 'Goyles? they may be a key unit but how well have they performed against their targets? Would 9 or 8 be enough?

Otherwise... it's just the parasite? But how's he been performig for you in-game? You didn't say much!

Parasite is fantastic until he gets tagged by a powerfist

I use PoMmy as a light tank hunter with a gargoyle escort for ablative wounds, when i take him (which is rarely).

Wanted to get everyone's oppinion on the following. I am still VERY much a Nid n00b, the only thing i know, is what direction i want to take this army

HQ
Vanilla Hive Tyrant with Regen, Hive Commander, and two Tyrant Gaurds - 335 pts
Parasite of Mortex - 160 pts

Elites
3 Hive Gaurds - 150pts
3 Lictors - 195 pts

Fast Attack
20 Gargoyles with toxin sacs and adrenal glands - 160 pts
3 Raveners with spinefists and rending claws - 120 pts

Troops
Tervigon with regeneration and catalyst, 25 Termagants - 285 pts
25 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs - 200 pts
19 genestealers with a broodlord, all with adrenal sacs - 384 pts

Heavy Support
Trygon Prime with regeneration - 280 pts

grand total of 1999 points


As the title implies, my goal is to create the most annoying Tyranid army for my opponents, while creating the most fun for myself .

The above army is broken down into a few parts, the 2 'Cores' of it will contain the Tyrant and Hive Gaurds, and the Tervigon with its Termagaunts, both with a mass of Hormagaunts supported by an increasing number of termagants to slowly creep foward behind. The Parasite of Mortex will be joined by the 20 gargoyles to go harass outlying units of enemy infantry, that are isolated or are bunkered in on an objective.
Aside, from the above, the rest of the army will be held in reserve, ideally i aim to get the lictors out as soon as possible, followed quickly by the Trygon prime and the Raveners. All three of which will be hammering the back of the enemy's lines while the two cores assail the front of their lines. Given the tunnel created by the Trygon, i could have the Genestealers emerge from it to support it and the Raveners, or outflank them to create a Box of carnage.
The goal of this list is to give too many things to shoot at, as in every unit was created to draw fire away from another unit. This forces the opponent to either split his fire against EVERYTHING (lowering the number of heavy shots to my high-value models) or focus his fire at one section of the army (giving the others vast amounts of time to quickly close the distance).

Well, thats my crazy idea in a nutshell, can you help me flesh out this list to help me get to that goal?

Well first, you can't take a tervigon as a troop choice without a squad of termigaunts (unless i am crazy and hormi's count for this as well)

Grundz wrote:Well first, you can't take a tervigon as a troop choice without a squad of termigaunts (unless i am crazy and hormi's count for this as well)

i wrote them inline with the Tervigon, one brood of 25 naked gants. i just bundled the points for the unit and the Tervy all together

Anidem wrote:Wanted to get everyone's oppinion on the following. I am still VERY much a Nid n00b, the only thing i know, is what direction i want to take this army

HQ
Vanilla Hive Tyrant with Regen, Hive Commander, and two Tyrant Gaurds - 335 pts
Parasite of Mortex - 160 pts

Elites
3 Hive Gaurds - 150pts
3 Lictors - 195 pts

Fast Attack
20 Gargoyles with toxin sacs and adrenal glands - 160 pts
3 Raveners with spinefists and rending claws - 120 pts

Troops
Tervigon with regeneration and catalyst, 25 Termagants - 285 pts
25 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs - 200 pts
19 genestealers with a broodlord, all with adrenal sacs - 384 pts

Heavy Support
Trygon Prime with regeneration - 280 pts

grand total of 1999 points

First of all, i'd strongly suggest you do read the whole original post. Hulks have collected alot (ALOT!) of great, great stuff, and furthermore, explained WHY X unit is good or bad to throw into a list.

Secondly, the Lictors... They're hardly worth their points. Some might say they are, but alot of arguments have been made about leaving the Elite slots for Hive Guards. They're just too solid a unit to ignore!

Also, you seem fond of pumping up all your units. I'm not sure i'd suggest you to do so. If you do some math, and collect all the additional costs for all the AG, TS, making Trygon a Prime, Regen for Tervigon (and no AG + TS!!?), and so on, you could've added another whole squad that might've raked alot more havoc.

Well, nothing of an expert myself. But what my experience and gained knowledge from the real 'Nid-players in here has tought me a thing or two!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:I use PoMmy as a light tank hunter with a gargoyle escort for ablative wounds, when i take him (which is rarely).

I actually haven't given him a try just yet, so i'm not really sure of his worth. The main focus in the list evolves around having alot of force-multiplier units, that can strenghten the army and having units that's quick at reaching and tying up the enemy squads (e.g. with lots of buffs from SwL + Tervi'es).
- With that in mind, PoMmy (kewl nick!) got the same speed as the 'Goyles, meaning he'd reach the enemy with the rest of the Winged's (well, unless they'll get shot to bits from being too few), and maybe even use them as a screen once they assault.

On the other hand, he (PoMmy) COULD be taken out. But in that case, i'd be unsure about which unit should replace him..?

Billinator wrote:HQ:
Swarmlord
- 2x Guard
Parasite of M.

Elite:
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Ymgarl x10

Troops:
Gaunt x10
Gaunt x10
Tervi
- (AG, TS, Cata, Large)
Tervi
- (AG, TS, Cata, Large)

Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x10
Gargoyle x10

Heavy Support:
Trygon
Trygon

Total: 2000 pts

This is a good 'multiple threat' style list. Good enough for you to just start playtesting. There are things you've got that i don't like, and things you don't have that I really like.... but the changes are too nitpicky and wouldn't really make sense unless it was in the context of a game.

I say just get some table time with this thing. Having a nid list pumping on all cylinders makes it exponentially more devastating. People may ignore genestealers/gargoyles just long enough for you to slap feel no pain and furious charge/preferred enemy on them. Or they might hammer your ymgarls/gargs on turn 1 and two, leaving you free to get trygons across the table untouched and your tervigons free to cover the board in gants.

Or they'll split their fire and get tabled.

I was rereading the first post and noticed you have no info on Venomthropes. Does no one else use them? `Cause I love the buggers. Even with all the other awesome Elites that the `Nids have I make a point of squeezing in a pair of these guys. They're awesome for making your opponents use up their fire either trying to kill them, or on the cover saves that they give to your other big beasties or front line cannon fodder. They tend to hang out around my Tervigon/Gaunt/T-Fex bricks where they can pretty much cover the whole lot.

If they're still around when people assault you, the Dangerous Terrain is a nice bonus, and if they don't have Grenades, they're striking at Int 1. The game where they had the greatest impact was actually a mirror match against another `Nids list. There are few things more satisfying than wiping out a unit of Genestealers in melee with Gaunts without losing a single Gaunt.

Yeah they haven't been mentioned. I would certainly run a unit if I was still running my tyranid gunline.

They are great when you are drawing an enemy onto your tarpits. And make tervigons and t-fexes that much harder to kill, until they are handled. And they don't even need to be in LOS or non-pinned to do this.

However, with my current nid lists, and other peoples nid lists that cover more of the table, we are moving more aggressively, and that 6" bubble is a millstone around our necks.

Shep wrote:However, with my current nid lists, and other peoples nid lists that cover more of the table, we are moving more aggressively, and that 6" bubble is a millstone around our necks.

Yup, mostly that. They could tag along with the T-beasts, I suppose, but I generally have a better use for the Elite slot than further defending the backfield bugs.

Some day, I need to play around w/a 6 Hive Guard, 2 Venomthrope, 2 Tervigon, 3 T-fex list; I suspect many (non-SW) players will have difficulty in dislodging me from anywhere I choose to be. But of all the ways to play the 'Nids, I find gunline to be least interesting in concept.

That's actually where I've been migrating my forces too. Love running a pair of Venomthropes, a pair of T-Fexes, and a pair of Tervigons with their entourage of Gaunts. Add in other things to fit my current mood, which I did just finally pick up my first pair of Hive Guard to throw into the mix.

We just had a 13 person local tourney. 3x Nid, 1x Blood Angel, 2x Vanilla marines, 1x Eldar, 3x IG, 2x Chaos and 1 Tau. All three Tyranid lists were quite different and placed 1-2-3 with a good SM force finishing 4th. Now it wasn't on the same level of 'ard boys but there were certainly quality IG, SM, Tau and Eldar lists there.

So what do people think about running a core of shooty and assaulty warriors with a regen Prime in an MC heavy list?

Warriors with LW/BS are probably one of the most deadly assault units in the game, their only weakness being T4 and their 4+ save. However, with a lot of other T6 stomping up the field to draw fire (say a Flyrant and pair of Trygons with a Garg screen on one flank, and your Tervigons walking up the center guarded by a Warrior Brood and your list's essential Hive Guard) then I think they really come into the open as a good counterassault unit against anything but a Dreadnought, or as a good force to get into the opponent's deployment zone then rip out 15-24 S5 shots depending on brood size.

Anyone have any experience using them in tourney lists? Think they add anything unique and useful that say, a Trygon or even another Hive Tyrant could do instead?

ramongoroth wrote:We just had a 13 person local tourney. 3x Nid, 1x Blood Angel, 2x Vanilla marines, 1x Eldar, 3x IG, 2x Chaos and 1 Tau. All three Tyranid lists were quite different and placed 1-2-3 with a good SM force finishing 4th. Now it wasn't on the same level of 'ard boys but there were certainly quality IG, SM, Tau and Eldar lists there.

I'd be glad if you could share, roughly at least, what the nid-lists looked like and how they played out.

Read the entire OP (if not the entire 12 page thread!) and some of the lists people have posted in the thread, and this is fantastic. I'm really thinking of getting back into 40k with tyranids, and this tactica is really helpful. Thanks

Glad you like it RiTides. It was my hope that a lot of good information would get spread around and show that Nids can be played in 5th, well. And the guys on here have added tons of great content. I'm building my stuff for 2011 but because of Adepticon being 1850 (not something I like for my Nids) i'll be playing something else. But likely for Nova, BolsCon, Bugeater, and as many of the cali tournies as I can make I'll probably be running me bugs

Mellon wrote:

I'd be glad if you could share, roughly at least, what the nid-lists looked like and how they played out.

The first list (3rd place) I'm going by memory as he left his printouts at home. Some of the numbers are likely off and I don't know all the details. He won the first two games vs a standard mech guard (melta vets, vendettas, etc) and a solid marine player. I faced him in the final round with my list (below) and I won a very bloody affair (16 or so kill points combined). He outflanked the stealers and talking with him after the tourny they were the star of his first two games. In our match I was able to counter charge the Ymargls and his second group with my prime and back up. His Hive Tyrant and horms were the two that did the most damage against my list.

HQ
Hive Tyrant - Old Adversary, 2x TL guns of some kind.
2 Tyrant Guard w/ lash whips
Tyranid Prime with... stuff. When we played it died before I found out what it had.

Elites
2x Zolanthrope
1x Zolanthrope
10x Ymargl stealers

Troops
2 large Termagant squads w/ fleshborers
1 large hormagant squad w/ toxin sacs
8 stealers toxin
9 stealers toxin
5 or 6 Warrios w/ guns (joined by prime)

Fast
16 gargoyles

Heavy
3 Biovores
1 Carnifex scything talons, adrenal glands

2nd place (me)

First game I won vs a guard player. His list wasn't as optimized as some others and it ended up a big win for me. Second round I played against a reserve denial Eldar list (2 autarch, 3x min DA in serpetns, 2x min Fire dragons serpents, 2x 4 GJB and 3 prisms). I won on table quarters and kill points as he was zipping around and the game ended on turn 5. He killed a single gant squad. The last game I beat the list above. As I said, very bloody. I had the primary objective, he had the secondary and I won on kill points 9 to 7. The Hive guard did awesome and the T-fexes did their share of damage and soaked up fire. Against the above nid list the Tfexes were able to ID the prime and a zolanthrope or two. Against IG every turn one Leman Russ was not firing at me cause of the rupture cannons.

HQ
1 Tyranid Prime, lash whip bonesword regeneration
1 Tervigon, adrenal, toxin, catalyst, scything talons

Elites
8 Hive guard

Troops
2 x 10 termagants
2 x Tervigons, adrenal, toxin, onslaught, sctyhing talons

Heavy
3 x Tyrannofex w/ rupture cannons.

1st place

This list crushed everything it faced. First it beat a mech blood angel list. Secondly it beat a solid mech guard list. However both players admitted that the guard player had some bad die roll whiffs early in the game that could have made the game more competitive. Third round it nearly tabled a mech marine player but on the last turn a speeder scout squad was able to move, assault gants and claim the main objective and then had the game end right afterwards giving him a draw. If the game went another turn it would have been three major victories. Looking at the list he's got a lot of points soaked up into the swarm lord and tyrant with thin troops but he made it work and work very well.

HQ

Swarmlord w/ 1 guard w/ lash whip
Hive Tyrant, wings, lash whip, bonesword, scything talons, parox, lecch, hive commander

Elites
3x zolanthropes w/ pod
6 hive guard

Troops
10 gants fleshborer
Tervigon stinger salvo, catalyst
5 Genestealer w/ Broodlord
12 horms no upgrades

Fast
4 shrikes scything talons, lash whip/bonesword

Heavy
Trygon Prime, adrenal glands

Interesting list, that last one -- very serious anti-vehicle capabilities in the Elite slot, obviously, which presumably were enough to open up transports for the anti-infantry components to start getting to work. I'm a little surprised it did OK against fully meched up lists though (even 2-3 vehicle kills a turn may not be enough against a list with 10+ vehicles). Has some quite expensive, and relatively small & fragile, units too -- the genestealers and shrikes -- how did he keep them alive long enough to do damage? Presumably running them up behind the hormies... but those look a bit fragile too!

Every time I look at the list I have the same thoughts. The blood angel list was a small model count army. I know the IG player on turn 2 or 3 had a very bad turn. His Vendettas came on, unloaded into the zolanthropes and didn't kill any of them. The hive guard and zolantropes did significant damage while not taking any losses in return due to positioning, cover and luck. The player behind the nid army has been around a long time and is certainly very skilled. His army looked amazing as well. I didn't see much of the last game to know what happened. I know the marine player had 2 preds (ac, 2x las) 1 vindicator a couple scout squads, perhaps another speeder, 4 troops combat squaded with rhinos so there certainly were a lot of vehicles there but not many templates.

I had a really close game and wanted to share: 1850 vs Salamanders

Nids
Flyrant with HC and OA

Prime with LW/BS and regen
Venomthrope

2 zoans in a spod w/ cluster spines

devgants in a spod w/ venom cannon

2 x 15 gaunts AG and toxin

8 genestealers with broodlord and toxin

5 Warriors with talons, 2xBS and AG

Fex w/ 2x tl BL worms

Fex w/ 2x talons, frag and AG

The salamander list was

He'stan
5 Terminators 2LC 3 Hammer
LRR w/ MM

Tac w/ flamer and ML in rhino

Tac w/ m, mm sarge with pw in a DP

8 scouts with cloaks sniping

Dev squad with 2 MM and 2 HB

TFC

Ironclad w/ HF

Vindicator w/ SS


I was a bit confused at seeing devs but tanks were not available. He split the rhino squad so the ML was in cover with some split devs. Scouts in cover on an objective with the vindi/LRR on 1 side and TFC on another in cover. It came close on 3 objectives but here's the rundown.

The flyrant gave outflanking to the cc fex so it would threaten the edges with the genestealers. The Prime held the venomthrope's hand and gave cover to the 2 units of gaunts and dakka fex. The warriors sat near the flyrant to screen against the DP tac squad.

Warriors ate the DP and melta squad and sat on an objective. Only one saw the end of the game.
The gaunts took all kinds of fire and lasted to turn 3.
The stealers, devgants, and zoans came in on turn 2. The CC fex on turn 3.

Stealers ate the rhino tac with flamer with 2 surviving to claim an objective.
The devgants shot up the TFC and then were Ironclad and shot to death on turn 3.
The cc fex wiped the scouts in cover, popped the vindi and contested an objective.
The zoans popped the LRR, 2 terminators, and 5 marines on an objective; dead on turn 4.
The dakka fex shot a term dead, and with the Prime and venomthrope assaulted He'stan and 4 terms and won.

How?

That pesky flyrant WS/BS them to 1 but was too far to assault as well. The SM had to hit last either from TH or base contact with the LWs and also couldn't hit for jack all. Oh and all died to mass fire on Turn 5/6 (after the Ironclad assaulted the flyrant hoping to stop the paroxysm but died).

It came together really well and in the end all that lived was the warrior, 2 genestealers, and cc fex. He had the tech marine, and maybe 7 marines left. Multiple threats coming in who knows where to last 1-2 turns. I distracted with new targets and made him play at my pace.

My only problem is the gaunts, yes they give cover and distract but it always seems like if I take more bodies, they make CC but don't do anything. If they take AG/tox they can kill in CC but rarely make it. Still, in this game they ate several rounds of firing and choked the fire lanes. That'll do.

Really, if you want your gaunts to hang out on objectives, you are all set, if you want cc, take homries.

Gaunt synapse failure is useful if there is an objective in cover, you dont need to worry about synapse.

? I thought it was termagants and hormagaunts...

Anyway I just meant horms with AG and tox are expensive compared to plain with more bodies.

The flyrant gave outflanking to the cc fex so it would threaten the edges with the genestealers.

Pretty sure you can't use hive commander to outflank a Carnifex. I thought it only worked on troop choices.

Yup. A single unit of Troops may outflank.
Not a single unit, which would include Heavy Support Carnifexes.

And that's what I get for not re-reading and then repeatedly rereading the rules. Oh well, at least the warriors/gaunts could do it. Actually that sounds better than the fex. Did the same mistake with ravenors and the trygon tunnel. Though I never actually played it.

Thanks

Doomthumbs wrote:Yup. A single unit of Troops may outflank.
Not a single unit, which would include Heavy Support Carnifexes.

Although a Troop Tervigon is practically as intimidating as a Carnifex if you want to try and Outflank it (but it would probably be a waste unless you had some support for it, as its synergies with other critters is immensely beneficial to you).

Shep wrote:

This is a good 'multiple threat' style list. Good enough for you to just start playtesting. There are things you've got that i don't like, and things you don't have that I really like.... but the changes are too nitpicky and wouldn't really make sense unless it was in the context of a game.

I say just get some table time with this thing. Having a nid list pumping on all cylinders makes it exponentially more devastating. People may ignore genestealers/gargoyles just long enough for you to slap feel no pain and furious charge/preferred enemy on them. Or they might hammer your ymgarls/gargs on turn 1 and two, leaving you free to get trygons across the table untouched and your tervigons free to cover the board in gants.

Or they'll split their fire and get tabled.

Yeah, you're right about getting to some testing. Frankly, i haven't got all the models yet, but i don't wanna waste money on mini's i'm not gonna need in any list.

But anyways, the list was much based on (as i think i DID mention earlier) having alot of "psycological impact creatures", such as a decent amount of MC's, which screams "shoot me, not the smaller ones!" and the Ymgarls dormanting/outflanking aswell. And with a good amount of buffer-units, that can improove almost any creature nearby, i think it could show to be a decent list.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback - much appreciated!

This list crushed everything it faced. First it beat a mech blood angel list. Secondly it beat a solid mech guard list. However both players admitted that the guard player had some bad die roll whiffs early in the game that could have made the game more competitive. Third round it nearly tabled a mech marine player but on the last turn a speeder scout squad was able to move, assault gants and claim the main objective and then had the game end right afterwards giving him a draw. If the game went another turn it would have been three major victories. Looking at the list he's got a lot of points soaked up into the swarm lord and tyrant with thin troops but he made it work and work very well.

HQ

Swarmlord w/ 1 guard w/ lash whip
Hive Tyrant, wings, lash whip, bonesword, scything talons, parox, lecch, hive commander

Elites
3x zolanthropes w/ pod
6 hive guard

Troops
10 gants fleshborer
Tervigon stinger salvo, catalyst
5 Genestealer w/ Broodlord
12 horms no upgrades

Fast
4 shrikes scything talons, lash whip/bonesword

Heavy
Trygon Prime, adrenal glands

I'm curious about hearing more about how he made it all work. For a Reserve-based list, having that much points in SWL + HT w/ hive C seems like a great choice.
- Furthermore, he used Shrikes!? How'd they work out for him?

Billinator wrote:

I'm curious about hearing more about how he made it all work. For a Reserve-based list, having that much points in SWL + HT w/ hive C seems like a great choice.
- Furthermore, he used Shrikes!? How'd they work out for him?

I wasn't able to see it in action as much as I'd like as I was never playing at a table next to him to keep an eye on how he deployed etc. The Shrikes I know followed the Flyrant around and I don't think he reserved much aside from the zolanthropes. I think with the flyrant and shrikes extra speed it poses a bit more of a target priority issue. They're a much more immediate threat than the swarmlord or some of the little gribblies. He was able to use cover well to keep it from simply being shot off the table. I might get to see it again tonight in action. If I do I'll report back.

I started as a nids codex hater and have come around since.
Tyranid prime are simply the best all around character. I start them off attatched to a advancing squad of termagaunts or hige gaurd, then brake from that squad and charge them in with a nearby unit of ymgarl stealers when they erupt from cover. Together with stealers they make a mess of MEQ units.

i find that i learn more about to play something well if i know it's weaknesses so i started this thread here on Tyranid weaknesses i hope it helps.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/340480.page#2339542

Thanks for the information. i have alot of reading to do.

this is great!! i've learned alot from your info thanks for compialing it

i've also told my freinds about it and they've been reading it

Why the hatred for shrikes? I think they have potential. People aren't patient enough. They can stay behind cover until round 3 or so and come out if need be. They're more or less guaranteed to strike first and cause good damage with lash whip/bone sword combo.

You could add the Parasite to the squad, except he is way overpriced.

The Harpy, now that is a big piece of crap. I looked at it many times and I can not find a use for it. I rolled it up vs a dreadnought and it killed the dreadnought only 1 in 5 times. Lovely 2 attacks.

he Harpy, now that is a big piece of crap. I looked at it many times and I can not find a use for it. I rolled it up vs a dreadnought and it killed the dreadnought only 1 in 5 times. Lovely 2 attacks.

You're doing it wrong.


I'ts got a twinlinked heavy Venom cannon to shake tanks. It' cuts I in half when it assaults afecting the whole squad. making sure your Termagants strike first.

But with only 2 attacks, it would have a hard time beating up even gretchin. T5 and 4+ save won't go far.

It's got some nifty abilities and guns but they don't justify its points.

I look forward to the day someone shows me what kind of damage they do.

I have now played 14 complete games in 5th and a few games that ended abruptly due to time constraints, also witnessed many games. I think I have enough experience now to rate each unit.

I am going to group each Tyranid choice in 6 rankings: A+, A, B, C, D, and F

A+: Useful in every list, should be taken every game or nearly every game. Always gives your army a competitive edge.

A: To be taken in almost every game. A real staple of the army. Occasionally not taken due to point constraints, theme, etc.

B: Useful in most lists. Occasionally sucks, but will do well for you more times than not.

C: Occasionally good, but fails a fair number of times. Slightly overpriced. Limited usage due to situation.

D: Not a good choice. it will fail more times than not. Highly overpriced, veru situational.

F: Not at all useful. Don't consider it when you make a list. Use only for fun or themed lists in non-competitve environment.

A+: Hive Guard, Tervigon

Tervigon goes withut saying. Hive Guard are a mainstay in every list.

A: Termagants, Tyranid Prime, Doom of Malan'tai, Ymgarl Genestealers, Genestealers

Unless I theme my list otherwise, every list I have uses gants. They do well with Tervigon support. The Tyranid Prime is cheap and versatile. The Doom is just plain nasty. Tygarls and genestealers always make their points back for me after killing many enemy and causing mass disruption in the enemy lines. Most of the time my list is about 70-80% from A+ and A columns.

B: Hive Tyrant, Swarmlord, Tyrant Guard, Tyranid Warriors, Gargoyles, Zoanthropes, Trygon

I consider the tyrant and Swarmie to be situational. With their guard or wings, armored shell or the like, they eat up a lot of my points. A winged tyrant is difficult to protect but nasty if it reaches the enemy.

Gargoyles do well as a flying screen or with tyrant synergy. Trygon is very good on paper but bad deployment or bad luck with a deep strike roll can ruin his day. he must be used conservatively and remember he has fleet of foot.

I know I'll be flamed for it, but I like Warriors. They always do well for me. They are melta/rocket bait but most of the time I offer the opponent so many threats, they don't get shot. Team them with a prime. I take twin boneswords and deathspitters.

C: Carnifex, Tyrannofex, Biovore, Shrikers, Venomthrope, Mycetic Spore, Hormagaunts, Harpy, Lictor, Ravener

Carnifex has its uses but can be easily shot down. T-fex with a rupture cannon is overpriced but has high utility. Biovores are too weak with lurk rules and only S 4. Shrikes die too easily to small arms fire. Venomthrope dies too easily as well but has an obvious usage. The spore is great for getting something into enemy lines fast (Doom, especially) but is too easy to kill and gives your opponent easy KP.

I had the Harpy as a D but after using it twice, I moved it up to a C. It has to be used conservatively for a moving platform to fire 2 pie-plates a turn onto low-armored infantry. Lictor is only useful situationally, as it is not a MC.

Hormagaunts...they are as cheap as gaunts but their upgrades are overpriced. Gants without a Tervigon are much worse, but with a Tervigon, termagants fight better than plain hormagaunts. I have not been impressed by them.

D: Mawloc, Parasite of Mortrex, Deathleaper, Old One Eye

Old One Eye would be cool if he could ride a mycetic spore. Alas, he can't. Mawloc simply sucks and is totally unreliable. The Parasite is only T 4 and produces swarms to give your opponent easy KP. No thanks. Deahtleaper is simply too expensive just to contest something or to screw over a psycher that may or may not be in your opponent's list.

F: Ripper Swarms, Sky-slasher Swarms, Pyrovore

PU, no thanks to any of these. If swarms didnt crumble after being away from synapse, maybe. They could hold objectives for cheaper than lurking gants. No thanks.

Disagree w/where you put the Parasite and Gargoyles. Both are awesome and both have excellent uses.

I have to agree with Hulk. I'd swap gargs and DoM, and bump up PoM to at least a B.

Gargs - can be used just as a super cheap/fast screen, or with proper support/option, they can be one of the nastiest units in the dex on the charge.

PoM - Remember that if you don't have any ripper swarm models (i.e. leave them at home), you don't have place them and therefore you give up no KP. You stick him inside of a decent gargoyle brood and all of a sudden his T4 becomes a lot less of an issue until you get into CC with a powerfist or equiv.

DoM - Entirely too hit and miss for me to give a good rating to. Sometimes he's performs fantasticly, but most of the time he's simply mediocre at best. Too easy to ID and fails against meched up opponents.

I noticed a huge upswing in my performance when I met up with 20 gargoyles screening the rest of my army.

I play most of my games on vassal. My beef with it is that people are boased against monsters. Everytime I claim cover from something, they bitch and argue, but they're very fast to claim cover for their vehicle.

I put gargoyles as B because I think termagants with tervie support are better. Termagants without the tervigon suck.

Parasite in the gargoyle squad? Novel idea, I'll give it a try. Nonetheless, that sounds quite limited. For me to consider Parasite as a B, he'd have to have more utility.

Purposely leaving your rippers at home sounds borderline cheating. Do you break out the rippers in non-KP missions and then lie to your opponent in KP missions?

Never mind, points wrong

I'd bump Raveners up to at least a B. If you give em some Hormies for screening, they are a devastating CC troop. I think the thing for me that prevents them from being an A grade troop is the lack of biomorph options. 6 Raveners with TS would be very scary for an oppnent, and would cause alot of damage. Also, they are pretty easy to kill with missile launchers, so thats another downfall the unit has.

I don't knowwhat has been said so far... 13 pages is a lot to read, but I disagree with the Zoanthropes being bad, or worse than hive guard in any way.

In most lists, the only defense for landraiders is... trygons? Um... yea.

Granted librarians are a pain to deal with... but hive guard will take out all vehicles better more efficiently (with less range) than hive guard.

Poding them is one option, but walking them is another. I hate dropping them, because it draws attention to them, destroys their ability to be synapse nodes, and ignores the fact that you still have access to the warp blast. And... if your opponent is shooting S8 weapons into the zoanthropes, your list is poorly made.. as that is the only threat they see?

Zoanthropes are very under estimated, as people assume that they will be IK'd all the time or they will never be in range without a drop pod blah blah blah. Just assumptions... not based on actually using them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also like how the venomthrope was ignored in the elites section...

While the Hive guard won't get IK from 8+ weapons sometimes I wish I could have 4 elites. Just sometimes though. I think I may need to revisit the horde with venom for cover. That was some nasty walking carpet of gribblies.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Zoanthropes are very under estimated, as people assume that they will be IK'd all the time or they will never be in range without a drop pod blah blah blah. Just assumptions... not based on actually using them.

I love zoanthropes, but it's not instant death that's the problem. Simply, they are no harder to kill than 6 marines, using small arms or assault. (They're actually significantly worse than 6 marines in assault, owing to fewer attacks and No Retreat.)

bucheonman wrote:I play most of my games on vassal. My beef with it is that people are boased against monsters. Everytime I claim cover from something, they bitch and argue, but they're very fast to claim cover for their vehicle.

Well, that's one of many reasons I don't use Vassal. That's just something you'll have to work out with your opponent. I personally would disregard rating a unit based on Vassal because you are rating a unit designed for a 3-D game based upon experience in a 2-D environment.

I put gargoyles as B because I think termagants with tervie support are better. Termagants without the tervigon suck.

Parasite in the gargoyle squad? Novel idea, I'll give it a try. Nonetheless, that sounds quite limited. For me to consider Parasite as a B, he'd have to have more utility.

As with most things in the Nid dex, it depends on what the rest of your list looks like (which is why it's difficult/misleading to put a flat rating on a unit without context of the rest of the list). Termie/Tervigons are great, except they can be too slow for some lists. I tend to use a lot of winged/fleet critters so the PoM definately comes in very handy from time to time when I don't want to use flyrants.

Purposely leaving your rippers at home sounds borderline cheating. Do you break out the rippers in non-KP missions and then lie to your opponent in KP missions?

I don't own nor intend to own ripper swarms so it's not an issue for me. I use the rippers that come on the sprues as wound counters for multi wound creatures. I certainly would not advocate lying to your opponent about not having them for KP missions, while still keeping them stashed away for objective missions, but I see no problem with just leaving them at home. There are benefits and drawbacks of doing so unless you know ahead of time that you are for sure only going to be playing KP missions...in which case I probably would not be taking PoM for other reasons anyway.

I've never found the ripper swarms to be a problem, personally. You're getting an average of 3-4 bases per swarm, even if your opponent only fails one wound test, so it's hardly an easy kill point usually. By the time my Parasite is making rippers, she and my gargoyles are in my opponent's face, and probably my genestealers are, too, or very nearly so. Anything that gets me even more of a CC threat in my opponent's face at that point is good.

Maelstorm: Since I live somewhere with no live opponents, Vassal is my only way to play at this time. That matters to me then.

The thing I hate about swarms is how they crumble without support.

bucheonman wrote:Maelstorm: Since I live somewhere with no live opponents, Vassal is my only way to play at this time. That matters to me then.

The thing I hate about swarms is how they crumble without support.

As opposed to all other tyranids?
-----------------

Ripper swarms... bleh. They are 3 gants for the price of 2, slow, WS2 so anything with a slightly above average WS they can barely touch, not scoring, IK by S6, which most blasts are (and with swarms... that isn't a good thing). I used to try to use them... now I take all of my rippers and put them in my home made digestion pool objective markers... where they belong.

I've come up with a list that seems rally exciting as a budding nids player and its what I would like to bring with me to tournaments or at least variations on the theme.

1850 Pts - Tyranids Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1845

HQ: The Parasite of Mortrex (1#, 160 pts)
1 The Parasite of Mortrex, 160 pts

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood, 100 pts = 2 * 50

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood, 100 pts = 2 * 50

Elite: Hive Guard Brood (2#, 100 pts)
2 Hive Guard Brood, 100 pts = 2 * 50

Troops: Tervigon (1#, 195 pts)
1 Tervigon, 195 pts = (base cost 160 + Adrenal Glands 10 + Toxin Sacs 10 + Catalyst 15)

Troops: Tervigon (1#, 195 pts)
1 Tervigon, 195 pts = (base cost 160 + Adrenal Glands 10 + Toxin Sacs 10 + Catalyst 15)

Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 50 pts)
10 Termagant Brood, 50 pts = 10 * 5

Troops: Termagant Brood (10#, 50 pts)
10 Termagant Brood, 50 pts = 10 * 5

Troops: Genestealer Brood (19#, 323 pts)
19 Genestealer Brood, 323 pts = 19 * 17 (base cost 14 + Toxin Sacs 3)

Fast Attack: Ravener Brood (6#, 210 pts)
6 Ravener Brood, 210 pts = 6 * 35 (base cost 30 + Rending Claws 5)

Fast Attack: Ravener Brood (6#, 210 pts)
6 Ravener Brood, 210 pts = 6 * 35 (base cost 30 + Rending Claws 5)

Fast Attack: Gargoyle Brood (19#, 152 pts)
19 Gargoyle Brood, 152 pts = 19 * 8 (base cost 6 + Adrenal Glands 1 + Toxin Sacs 1)

Parasite joins gargoyles and provides synapse obviously while everything else should hopefully get cover behind them.  Genestealers will infiltrate in most circumstances except possibly against grey knights and depending on setup/servo skulls/whatever.  Basically when turn 2 comes around I'm hoping to have between 4-6 charging units and if I'm up against a vehicle heavy army then there should be at least SOMETHING on foot for me to multi-assault into while charging as many vehicles with the raveners as possible.  If I just get stuns and shakes at least they aren't shooting at me I figure.  Also I'll have some very fast and durable synapse to help deal with the new grey knights and all those psychic powers right away.  Main catalyst targets will probably be the gargoyles and the genestealers.

It took me a while to realize that I could take 6 raveners with rending claws for the exact same price as a Trygon with adrenal glands which really seems like a steal considering how I basically have the same "wounds" vs str 8+ and can very easily get cover or even find some BLOS terrain.  I've played a few vassal games with a list very similar to this and I've really grown to like the 19-24" charge range of the raveners

I was wondering if Adepticon changed anyone's perspective on what's viable in a Tyranid army. In Jay Woodcock's list(placed 11th I believe) he had two Tervigons as HQ's, Zoanthropes as the 3rd elites choice, not to mention Crushing Claws on one of the Tervigons [Found the info on the list here- http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/04/05/adepticon-2011-pseudo-live-40k-champ-army-lists-and-anyalsis/ (Look at the 11th seed)]. Does this shake up opinions, or was just the list's synergy so good that it could ignore what most people(seem) to think about "proper" Tyranid army building? Such as, no Primes, no Trygons, and not using Tervigons as troops?
By the way, love the article. I try to soak in as much information as I can. Unfortunately I can't find many people that agree on anything.

Sinful Hero wrote:I was wondering if Adepticon changed anyone's perspective on what's viable in a Tyranid army. In Jay Woodcock's list(placed 11th I believe) he had two Tervigons as HQ's, Zoanthropes as the 3rd elites choice, not to mention Crushing Claws on one of the Tervigons [Found the info on the list here- http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/04/05/adepticon-2011-pseudo-live-40k-champ-army-lists-and-anyalsis/ (Look at the 11th seed)]. Does this shake up opinions, or was just the list's synergy so good that it could ignore what most people(seem) to think about "proper" Tyranid army building? Such as, no Primes, no Trygons, and not using Tervigons as troops?
By the way, love the article. I try to soak in as much information as I can. Unfortunately I can't find many people that agree on anything.

Jay did very well. I like his list (though I like poison on my 'stealers).

The interesting thing about the Tyranid codex is that many people have made many of the units work for them, albeit often after great practice. (Except Pyrovores; it's not necessary to try and make those good.) I really like the breadth of options; I just wish things like Jaws of the World Wolf and (now) Cleansing Flame didn't exist.

Mr. Drum Machine: Lists should not include points costs for individual upgrades... copyright thing. (Not sure if this is dakkadakka policy... but it is for every other forum i have been to, So I will assume so :-))

Loving this thread. I've been having brutal results with HC outflanking Hormagaunts with AD/TS. Last game they accounted for a Trygon, 2 Gaunt units, Zoanthrope brood and tied up a Swarmlord. Their chums on the other end took out a Fex, two Tervigons and a blob of Termagants.

I think the little blurb about the parasite of Mortrex could be expanded up especially now that we have grey knights in the mix. Nids generally will rely on shaking and stunning vehicles as they draw close to get at the juicy bits. Unfortunately with fortitude that tactic is all but negated and hive tyrants just took another step back with reinforced aegis on top of psychic hoods making paroxism a more situational power on top of what (in my limited experience) is a relatively fragile platform considering the cost you're paying for it (240+ points and that's just for 1 effing guard and little extra bits).

Now the parasite will allow you to actually affect those GK vehicles and they run a strong risk of not only failing their power but injuring themselves further, while simultaneously having said parasite in a large unit of gargoyles and safe from all but really concentrated fire that probably wouldn't be entirely appropriate to shoot at gargoyles anyway.

I'll be happy to contribute more as I continue in my experimentation with the parasite

I'm having similar thoughts, and my FW warrior wings have arrived to facilitate my Parasite conversion (Ravener body). Should be interesting, at the very least.

I've tried the Parasite in two games with the thought they would improve the GK match up. I'm not impressed. We do have a problem with AV 13/14. I know that. Zoans are not totally reliable. Wecannot DS in pods against GK - warp quake. We need a HT with Hive Commander to get them early. So we wlk them. Not optimal in my mind.

At 1500 I'm struggling to find good AT and good cc against GK. It was easy to glance vehicles. Not so much with Fortitude. I have no room for T. Fexes and Trygons at 1500. So I'm using this:

==Gene Wars==

Tyranid Prime, Dual Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Regeneration 110
Tyranid Prime, Dual Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Regeneration 110

2 Hive Guard Brood 100
2 Hive Guard Brood 100
2 Venomthropes 110

4 Tyranid Warrior Brood, 4x Deathspitters, 4x Lashwhip and Bonesword, Toxin Sacs 220
4 Tyranid Warrior Brood, 4x Deathspitters, 4x Lashwhip and Bonesword, Toxin Sacs 220


7 Genestealer Brood, Toxin Sacs 119
7 Genestealer Brood, Toxin Sacs 119
7 Genestealer Brood, Toxin Sacs 119

21 Gargoyle Brood, Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs 168

---1495--->

It'sa decent enough all comers list but against the new codexes it is uphill. You really have to know how to deploy, when to 'go to ground', when to be aggressive. Little mistakes are costly. GK just fire away with their psycannons and Psyfillis dreads. They don't require the same level of expertise. DE pepper you with poison shots. Non-the-less I'm winning a few.

Personally I would never take nids anywhere below 1750, 1500 is just too restrictive for what could be brought to bare against them.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Personally I would never take nids anywhere below 1750, 1500 is just too restrictive for what could be brought to bare against them.

I am starting ti agree with this

Local tournaments and gaming is all 1500 points here on a 4'x4' board. Do you have any idea how over powered genestealers are when they are almost assured to be in combat the turn they come onto the board via outflank? Board size and point limits all have a big impact on what works and what doesn't and needs to be considered while building your list.

Heh, 4x4 skirmish games are just Stealerhammer. Throw in Ymgarls for a good chance at near 100% table coverage.

1500 on 6x4, however, is a nightmare.

Yes, 1750+ really starts to open up a few more possibilities. Really at 1500 you pretty much have to rely on stealers or tri terv list. I'm not keen on the tri Terv anymore - it's been failing me recently against a lot of the spammier new codex lists.

Swarmlord + genestealers (god I hate the SL so much) tends to be a good combo as well... swarmlord marches up the center wile genestealers outlfank and basically grantee where they want to come out. Your opponent will have to make the choice to stay in the center or go to the edges... both bad decisions.

Flaws in this tactic are few, but easily exploited. Tyrant and a swamlord, hive guard and then vanilla genestealers are a tactic I have seen people use and use successfully. Keeping the SL in cover is the most important part though...

Personally I would never take nids anywhere below 1750, 1500 is just too restrictive for what could be brought to bare against them.

Nidz hate low points games... in the same way eldar and CSM love low points games.

I do really good at 100 points with nids.

Yep, I do well with nids at any point size really. Only time I have ever lost with my nids was in a specific tournament scenario where I started 36 inches away against mech IG and they had space to back up. We did the math and on average with him not moving I was going to make it into assault on turn 5. So I don't really count that as a loss in the real sense.

If you want to learn how to beat grey knights? It is quite simple really. Proxy a GK army and play them two or three times, read the book. Each units weaknesses will become apparent quite quickly. I have a tyranid army in mind that I would bring against Grey Knights anyday. One thing you have to remember about grey knights. Their range is similar to ours. Their most potent weapons are range 24. That means that they have to be close. What do tyranids do well? Get close

Remember psychout grenades only work when the grey knight gets the charge. What will really mess up grey knights? Unit of hormagants with synapse neat by. Sure they all have power weapons but when your unit has a 6+ who cares? At that point they are marines with fewer dudes on the table.

Here are the armies I fear. Tau that go first(a Carbine markerlight army would shut down grey knights very VERY fast) , Horde orks, and Tyranids. Have not gotten a chance to play mechdar yet so I am looking forward to facing them but am kind of worried as that battle is all down to the dice(more so than usual)

Janthkin wrote:I'm having similar thoughts, and my FW warrior wings have arrived to facilitate my Parasite conversion (Ravener body). Should be interesting, at the very least.

Yeah, I bought those parts months ago but haven't assembled him yet. I also bought a Chapterhouse Alienid head to boot. Still, would you care to elaborate how the Parasite shuts down GK vehicles?

wyomingfox wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I'm having similar thoughts, and my FW warrior wings have arrived to facilitate my Parasite conversion (Ravener body). Should be interesting, at the very least.

Yeah, I bought those parts months ago but haven't assembled him yet. I also bought a Chapterhouse Alienid head to boot. Still, would you care to elaborate how the Parasite shuts down GK vehicles?

"Shuts down?" That might be stretching it too far. But I'm feeling the need for more Shadows in the Warp coverage (which will turn Cleansing Flame & Fortitude from almost-sure-things into 50/50 gambles, at best), and the Parasite offers the cheapest coverage I can add on an extremely mobile platform. A Prime is cheaper, but much slower. Flying Warriors are too easily killed by S8 autocannons, and I don't really like their battlefield role. The Parasite meshes well with the large squad(s) of gargoyles I already like to run, and brings some decent-strength rending along for the ride.

Janthkin wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I'm having similar thoughts, and my FW warrior wings have arrived to facilitate my Parasite conversion (Ravener body). Should be interesting, at the very least.

Yeah, I bought those parts months ago but haven't assembled him yet. I also bought a Chapterhouse Alienid head to boot. Still, would you care to elaborate how the Parasite shuts down GK vehicles?

"Shuts down?" That might be stretching it too far. But I'm feeling the need for more Shadows in the Warp coverage (which will turn Cleansing Flame & Fortitude from almost-sure-things into 50/50 gambles, at best), and the Parasite offers the cheapest coverage I can add on an extremely mobile platform. A Prime is cheaper, but much slower. Flying Warriors are too easily killed by S8 autocannons, and I don't really like their battlefield role. The Parasite meshes well with the large squad(s) of gargoyles I already like to run, and brings some decent-strength rending along for the ride.

I personally like that warriors are Instant deathed by str 8. In my list it makes the opponent have to think about who he is going to shoot at. The more they have to think the more likely they are going to make a mistake vrs no brainer target priority

Two x twein linked auto cannon. 2 shots, 12/9ths hit + 4/9ths on the re-roll or 16/9ths hit x2 so 32/9ths hit * 5/6 wounds so 80/27 wounds X .5(if you are not getting a cover save than you deserve to lose all the warriors in the world) so 40/27 or about 1 1/2 warriors. So two shooting will on average kill 3. I have no problem losing 3 warriors a turn to long range shooting like this. That is way less than I normally lose, and hey if they are shooting the warriors than they are ignoring the MC's. For warriors to work you just have to make your list work with them more so than the * no brainer* selections

Leth wrote:
I personally like that warriors are Instant deathed by str 8. In my list it makes the opponent have to think about who he is going to shoot at. The more they have to think the more likely they are going to make a mistake vrs no brainer target priority

Two x twein linked auto cannon. 2 shots, 12/9ths hit + 4/9ths on the re-roll or 16/9ths hit x2 so 32/9ths hit * 5/6 wounds so 80/27 wounds X .5(if you are not getting a cover save than you deserve to lose all the warriors in the world) so 40/27 or about 1 1/2 warriors. So two shooting will on average kill 3. I have no problem losing 3 warriors a turn to long range shooting like this. That is way less than I normally lose, and hey if they are shooting the warriors than they are ignoring the MC's. For warriors to work you just have to make your list work with them more so than the * no brainer* selections

I agree with the idea of target saturation but I would rather take raveners in my fast attack over shrikes because they're faster and cheaper and with rending claws are capable of catching things like those pesky eldar grav tanks and messing them up. Shrikes as a unit just get terribly expensive for what I consider a very mediocre return, I plan on testing them out more thoroughly to confirm, especially in comparison to raveners. On initial inspection shrikes seem like a unit to build an army around in order for them to work well at all.

Leth wrote:I personally like that warriors are Instant deathed by str 8. In my list it makes the opponent have to think about who he is going to shoot at. The more they have to think the more likely they are going to make a mistake vrs no brainer target priority

Two x twein linked auto cannon. 2 shots, 12/9ths hit + 4/9ths on the re-roll or 16/9ths hit x2 so 32/9ths hit * 5/6 wounds so 80/27 wounds X .5(if you are not getting a cover save than you deserve to lose all the warriors in the world) so 40/27 or about 1 1/2 warriors. So two shooting will on average kill 3. I have no problem losing 3 warriors a turn to long range shooting like this. That is way less than I normally lose, and hey if they are shooting the warriors than they are ignoring the MC's. For warriors to work you just have to make your list work with them more so than the * no brainer* selections

The problem is largely one of maintaining synapse & Shadows coverage.
-If you're using a lot of fast-moving bugs (e.g., gargoyles, raveners, or maybe hormagaunts), you'll need to keep synapse on them. You've only got a few options - you either need fast-moving synapse (Shrikes, the Parasite, a Flyrant), or you need large synapse bubbles (the Swarmlord, Tervigons casting Dominion). Given those options, I like the Parasite best - he can't be picked off by shooting (he's an IC, attached to a bunch of ablative gargoyles), and he has some interesting utility when multi-assaulting. Shrikes stand out as a great target for S8 shooting in such a scenario - they are expensive on a per-model basis, and removing the synapse from the front wave of assault decreases the threat. And I often can't stomach the price tag on the Flyrant; that's a LOT of points for 4 T6 wounds.

-If you want to move Shadows coverage around the board quickly, you've only got three options: Shrikes, the Parasite, and a Flyrant. As with Synapse coverage, the Parasite is the most survivable option, simply by virtue of his IC status. If your opponent is concerned about Shadows (because, for example, his whole army, including vehicles, is nothing but Psykers), then Shrikes are going to deserve their "Shoot me first!" sign, and he will happily spend a turn's worth of (multiple) Dreadnought fire shooting down 3 Shrikes.

Now, if your army doesn't include a bunch of gargoyles, or hormagaunts, you may not need fast-moving synapse. But even in my usual genestealer-heavy builds, I suspect I'm going to want more Shadows coverage, just to keep Cleansing Flame from auto-nuking my expensive bugs before they can even swing.

MrDrumMachine wrote:

Leth wrote:
I personally like that warriors are Instant deathed by str 8. In my list it makes the opponent have to think about who he is going to shoot at. The more they have to think the more likely they are going to make a mistake vrs no brainer target priority

Two x twein linked auto cannon. 2 shots, 12/9ths hit + 4/9ths on the re-roll or 16/9ths hit x2 so 32/9ths hit * 5/6 wounds so 80/27 wounds X .5(if you are not getting a cover save than you deserve to lose all the warriors in the world) so 40/27 or about 1 1/2 warriors. So two shooting will on average kill 3. I have no problem losing 3 warriors a turn to long range shooting like this. That is way less than I normally lose, and hey if they are shooting the warriors than they are ignoring the MC's. For warriors to work you just have to make your list work with them more so than the * no brainer* selections

I agree with the idea of target saturation but I would rather take raveners in my fast attack over shrikes because they're faster and cheaper and with rending claws are capable of catching things like those pesky eldar grav tanks and messing them up. Shrikes as a unit just get terribly expensive for what I consider a very mediocre return, I plan on testing them out more thoroughly to confirm, especially in comparison to raveners. On initial inspection shrikes seem like a unit to build an army around in order for them to work well at all.

Sorry I was talking about regular warriors -_-. Strikes are hit and miss with me. I think I could make them work and they fit the theme of my army, however points are already tight and I would have to drop something else that makes my army work to take them. It really is rough man. Just remember with the flyrant, he has rending, not ap3 or better so keep that in mind. He needs to do about

In my mind you don't need your synapse all over the place. Just where you are going to hit. Take advantage of precision strikes. Strike one part of his army hard and fast. Let everyone else use their powers, who cares their powers aren't doing anything to you.

Each psycannon(assuming no cover from rending) will put one wound on the hive tyrant. So it is a risk. However if you have the tyrant sit back and then fly/run(combined with tervigon giving it the ability to shoot the same turn it runs - see using paroxysm) then it will take the minimum amount of fire while still providing the support in combat with synapse. Then again at this point you could just tervigon Dominate as well.

Leth wrote:
Sorry I was talking about regular warriors -_-. Strikes are hit and miss with me. I think I could make them work and they fit the theme of my army, however points are already tight and I would have to drop something else that makes my army work to take them. It really is rough man. Just remember with the flyrant, he has rending, not ap3 or better so keep that in mind. He needs to do about

In my mind you don't need your synapse all over the place. Just where you are going to hit. Take advantage of precision strikes. Strike one part of his army hard and fast. Let everyone else use their powers, who cares their powers aren't doing anything to you.

Each psycannon(assuming no cover from rending) will put one wound on the hive tyrant. So it is a risk. However if you have the tyrant sit back and then fly/run(combined with tervigon giving it the ability to shoot the same turn it runs - see using paroxysm) then it will take the minimum amount of fire while still providing the support in combat with synapse. Then again at this point you could just tervigon Dominate as well.

My bad for misunderstanding what you were talking about, my head was in the fast synapse to keep up with fast units conversation. When you talk about the flyrant and having rending I'm going to assume you're talking about grey knight psycannons right? Also the argument for hidden synapse with parasite vs grey knights is more in the shadow of the warp aspect, not the synapse action. Also as far as durable fast synapse I don't think we can get better than the parasite because having 20-30 ablative wounds is a pretty big deal.

I've been contemplating Trygon Primes as a response to the new GKs. It's yet more synapse (and thus more survivable against force weapons than regular Trygons, thanks to SitW), as well as more shooting... any thoughts?

Gotta say, the GKs do seem designed to do a number on us -- all right, synapse helps, but I6 marines with force weapons just mess up almost anything we have; our cheap stuff dies before it can strike, our expensive stuff loses its armour save and gets instakilled... :(

As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

I actually do this to contend against GK CC. I take 28 homagaunts in a brood fully upgraded, a 'nid power blob if you will. They skitter around the feet of my Trygon and Trygon Prime, and basically never draw any fire before its too late. I also use a Flyrant n the same build, so that Shadows is where it needs to be, and Broodlords to help with leadership. Its not a perfect plan, but i haven't lost to GK yet.

Leth are you trolling us or are you making warriors work? I have no luck with them. They eather get beaten by a dreadnought in close combat, get blasted by pie plates (your choise from vindicators to marbo) they alle just die quetly in the night.

I know that I have to sacrefy something, but warriors just never do anything for me. (I am of course asuming a meched up range doponent, since that is worst case scenario.)

Now that easter has been around perhaps I can pick up some cheap easter egs and try warriors in drop spores. It could work.

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

because lash whips disappeared from the codex?

Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

Well, there are a few things with that, as you said Prime and tyrant, his tyrant guard, warriors? and venomthrope I think is it. But that won't stop the whole unit. Not enough b2b for that. The more I try to play nids the more it feels incomplete. Like there's some magical way to play that wasn't in earlier editions.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:
Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

I take a tyrant with hive commander when I want to run a reserve-based list. Tyrant guard can get lash whips, though I haven't run them that way. I have run warriors with them.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

because lash whips disappeared from the codex?

Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

Why not take a Tyrant?

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

because lash whips disappeared from the codex?

Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

Tyrants are becoming increasingly poor, I'll agree. The issues faced by Primes is speed, they are walking everywhere and 1 or 2 lash whips isn't going to win combats for you.

Well, there are a few things with that, as you said Prime and tyrant, his tyrant guard, warriors? and venomthrope I think is it. But that won't stop the whole unit. Not enough b2b for that. The more I try to play nids the more it feels incomplete. Like there's some magical way to play that wasn't in earlier editions.

Prime; Slow but cheap. You need an HQ, so why not? LW/BS or BS/BS is the question really.
Warriors; LW comes paired with a BS, and costs what, 15 points? Warriors and shrikes are poor units and will not be fielded often.
Venomthropes; Not combat beasts really. Not to mention issues with the Elite choices and the general unpopularity of them.
Tyrant; Crumby expect when....see below.

I take a tyrant with hive commander when I want to run a reserve-based list. Tyrant guard can get lash whips, though I haven't run them that way. I have run warriors with them.

This. A Tyrant is used in a handful of situations.

- Big games when you can afford the guard and want a deathstar-ish unit
- When you are going for max T6 saturation
- When you want to use Hive Commander or Old Adversary as an important core of your army.
- You want a fast synapse flyer

2 or 3 of the above must be met before you consider using a tyrant.

Overall I'm considering shelving my tyrants in games smaller then 2000 points, there just isn't room to fit them in, and they don't contribute enough, consistently, to warrant spending 250+ points on them. GKs were the final nail in the coffin as even my LW/BS Winged tyrant will strike AFTER halberd troops because of the way psyk-out grenades and the LW/BS interact.

As for the I6 troops themselves you will only see the halberds on the odd terminator squad and purifiers. For competitive lists you probably won't even SEE terminators, so that just leaves purifiers. Dealing with them is the real tricks it seems, but SitW + genestealers + FnP from a tervigon (to lessen cleansing flame damage) should see you through the worst of what they can put out with shooting being plan "b". Other then higher initiative/cleansing flame, they are basically just assault marines that cost 50% more points.

If a Harpy charges in at the same time, Halberds are I4. If you hit 'em with Paroxysm (does Aegis stuff prevent all effects of enemy powers or just direct damage stuff?) they need 5's to hit Gaunts.

Actually, I think this is worthy of mentioning in a wider context in the OP. I'd argue that the tactica could do with more general analysis, maybe even before the unit-by-unit consideration; it has to be driven home early that a Tyranid army does not deploy this unit to do this and that unit to do that, but rather it is a single predatory organism with different parts working together to bring down prey.

What, no frag grenades?

One can't help but notice that unlike almost every other race in Warhammer 40,000, the Tyranids do not have factories mass-producing assault grenades to help their shock troops negate cover. However, they are by no means helpless when faced with a capable unit defending a wall or ruin, so long as they make use of unit synergy. The larger creatures and mid-tier weapons can render cover useless to prey - or at least mitigate the damage it helps the prey mete out.

First up, we have Paroxysm. Who cares if you're striking at I1 and have T3 when the prey needs to roll a 5+ to hit you? You can halve Gaunt casualties and increase their accuracy by having a nearby Tyrant or Swarmlord cripple the defenders before you even charge. Very effective against pretty much all Infantry units, especially those lacking psychic support and relying on high WS.

Whilst we're at, we can halve casualties again - assuming we're facing few Power Weapons and suchlike - by a Tervigon casting Catalyst on a unit before it charges. Great against hordes and more common assault units relying on volume of attacks. Also handy against Grey Knights; whilst it's no help against their NFW attacks, it halves the damage inflicted by the Purifier unit's extremely dangerous anti-horde power. No help for dealing with units relying on Power Weapon strikes or similar, though.

Lash Whips are not massively common, and the line unit that can take them - Tyranid Warriors (and Shrikes) - are very fragile in a game full of S8 shooting and powerfists. However, they do make a Tyrant Guard unit extremely dangerous, and if given to a Tyranid Prime (or two) their benefits can be shared by a unit. Charging Carnifexes having I3 and counts-as-assault grenades on the charge isn't much to shout about; however, join them with a Prime or two and have the Primes lead the charge, and you've got a firststriking steamroller. You just cast Catalyst on them, you say? Even better.

One way to eliminate cover that's often overlooked is Pinning. If a unit goes to ground, then units charging them through cover don't suffer penalties. Particularly against low Ld troops, it's possible to have Biovores and various Barbed Strangler carriers force several pinning tests in one shooting phase. A massive entrenched Guard blob can be a scary prospect for a Hormagaunt unit to charge after Catalyst failed. But if they duck and cover, their Commissar cannot execute a Sergeant to get them up off their feet, and they can't issue an Order to Get Back In The Fight! until their turn.

Even against high Ld targets that are difficult to wound with Stranglers and Spore Mines, there's still scope for a large number of hits with enough AP to ignore armour to force a player to voluntarily go to ground. If you're pounding at a Marine unit with Warp Blasts to soften them up for a charge, always gasp at the number of dice you're handing over to take 5+ cover saves and ask your opponent if they want to G2G. This 'poker face' strategy works better if your Fleet assault unit is not close enough to immediately register as a threat, and Runs towards the target after your opponent decides to duck and cover. Hormagaunts work well at this, due to having reliably high Running distance (all you need is one of them within 10" of the target unit and you can probably get in there); you want your opponent to feel secure enough to put his head down and hope that everything works out.

On the subject of forcing the target unit to make bad long-term decisions, Devourers give a better chance than most of forcing a failed break test. If your Outflanking, winged or Fleet units are in position to charge a unit that's only just in cover, sending them running 2D6" away can leave them (1) outside of cover, and (2) having to take a rally check to avoid being wiped out automatically. By no means a guaranteed outcome, and possibly counter-productive if your goal is to create LoS-blocking brawls, but when it works it's a sequence of misfortunes that crush the prey's morale and pushes them closer to an 'I'm going to lose' mindset. (WAAC? - Ed)

If you charge something that's already engaged in combat, you don't get a penalty for charging through cover. There are robust units with low melee effectiveness - Tyrannofexes, Tervigons and Mawlocs (even Ymgarl Genestealers boosting to T5 and deliberately only putting three or so models into the front line) - that can potentially plod into a huge mass of mediocre troops to trade light damage for your turn and theirs. During the enemy turn, your unit is concealed from Plasma Guns and melee specialists (and the entire brawl blocks LoS!); then, come your next turn, a swarm of Gaunts can jump all over them without fear. (A Tyrant with Armoured Shell can sometimes pull this off against Fearless blobs lacking powerful attacks, but it's a bit of a risk with only 4W.) Imperial Guard combined Platoons are the best targets for this, though Shoota Boyz lacking a Power Klaw Nob can also fall prey to the 'reverse tarpit'.

Finally, the Harpy - whilst not a popular unit - has the ability to halve the I of a unit it charges and also has counts-as-assault grenades. Not much good for a couple of S5 attacks, but charge Grey Knights at the same time as Hormagaunts or Genestealers and their Halberds are reduced to I4, giving the melee specialists a fair crack at wiping out the elite Astartes before they get a chance to try for the instant kill.

All of these strategies have to be borne in mind at the army list stage. When picking a melee-oriented unit, spend a moment considering how it synergies with the rest of your army to deal with prey waiting for them in cover.

Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Shovan wrote:Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Because it upgrades every nearby Termagant to having them for free. A blob of Termagants you didn't pay for, with Poisoned attacks you didn't pay for (and Adrenal Glands you didn't pay for), hits harder than Hormagaunts. Strike first against Marines and wound with 75% of hits, bring down any MC's without 2+ saves or FNP.

lindsay40k wrote:

Shovan wrote:Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Because it upgrades every nearby Termagant to having them for free. A blob of Termagants you didn't pay for, with Poisoned attacks you didn't pay for (and Adrenal Glands you didn't pay for), hits harder than Hormagaunts. Strike first against Marines and wound with 75% of hits, bring down any MC's without 2+ saves or FNP.

Haha, I almost feel stupid asking now. To think I've overlooked that rule all this time -_-.

i have not seen much love for the shrike. yes they are expensive points wise, but they are such powerhouses in CC. with the flying aspect, most likely you will be getting the charge. they can easily get cover due to their smaller size. and with dual boneswords anything they wound is going to take a leadership test on 3d6 or die(thinking of you thunderwolf calvary), which is nice because most people are going to play wound allocation tricks which means all those wounds get distributed around for instant death tests. i am no pro by all means, but i have played them in my last 2 games and they destroyed everything they touched and always lived to tell about it. with adrenal glands you are going to go first and wound most things on 3's. the last game they killed mephiston, a full group of scouts parked on an objective in cover, 2 squads of 5 or 6 tac marines and still had all of them alive before the game ended. the game before that they killed a squad of 5 termies in cover, a squad of 4 bikes and a 10 man firewarrior squad and only one died to a powerfist in the termies squad. they are amazing.
and with the GK's, i think they will do just as well. have a squad with LW/BS, AG and maybe rending claws go after purifiers. with SitW, they arent gonna get all those psychic powers off and then it is I1 for their squad. then the boneswords will finish them off. i have used squads of 4. thats 240 points that can murder a deathstar unit. give them preferred enemy buff from tyrant or FNP from a tervigon if you can pull it off and they are unstoppable(in my opinion)

Minor correction - their squaddies with Halberds will be at I1+2=3 (Nid FAQ). Note that this means striking second when charging them in cover.

There's an argument to give them a Barbed Strangler for wound allocation, and for the chance of Pinning the target. (A supporting Harpy can be very helpful, since she can add more pinning tests and also halves I of charged units - could allow you to drop the LW in favour of dual BS.)

FNP is pretty much essential, given that Bolters negate their save. If you're going to buff with a Tyrant of some stripe, there's the chance to Paroxysm stuff to reduce incoming hits.

I actually think that not allocating wounds helps us against grey knights. If we suffer 3 wounds then i remove one model whether or not they activate force weapons. If i suffer 2 wounds then one model is lost to force weapon. If i spread wounds around then the possibility of losing more models is greater.
And then there is the fact that they are synapse and they are rolling 3d6 to pass psychic checks. And if they have banner to auto pass, w/out wound allocation tricks i minimize squad losses.

Built-in wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

because lash whips disappeared from the codex?

Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

Why not take a Tyrant?

My opinion on the tyrant is that he costs way to much and doesn't support the army enough.

I prefer dual primes. Look at the stats for a tyranid prime. It is kind of scary mow little it varies from a hive tyanid. The independent character aspect of the tyranid prime also allows it to be more survivable, a better support for your T4 elites, and a strong synapse source (try putting him in a large unit of gants, see what happens :-))


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WatchOutFOOOL wrote:I actually think that not allocating wounds helps us against grey knights. If we suffer 3 wounds then i remove one model whether or not they activate force weapons. If i suffer 2 wounds then one model is lost to force weapon. If i spread wounds around then the possibility of losing more models is greater.
And then there is the fact that they are synapse and they are rolling 3d6 to pass psychic checks. And if they have banner to auto pass, w/out wound allocation tricks i minimize squad losses.

There are still identical models in most cases. If we are referring to the deathstar tyrant, there are 3 guards, so you need to take 4 wounds to loose more than 1 model die to force weapons.

Tyranids are not kinds of wound allocation tricks. Robbin cruddace made it very hard to have wound allocation tricks int he army.

Also, the GK factor is of course assuming that the grey knights are using a lot of marines... not the acolytes.


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Shovan wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

Shovan wrote:Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Because it upgrades every nearby Termagant to having them for free. A blob of Termagants you didn't pay for, with Poisoned attacks you didn't pay for (and Adrenal Glands you didn't pay for), hits harder than Hormagaunts. Strike first against Marines and wound with 75% of hits, bring down any MC's without 2+ saves or FNP.

Haha, I almost feel stupid asking now. To think I've overlooked that rule all this time -_-.

Tervigans are also S5, so if the model is T4+ that you are striking at, it is still a better chance to wound assuming the tervigan gets into close combat... which for most people is a bad idea anyway.


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Tyrants are becoming increasingly poor, I'll agree. The issues faced by Primes is speed, they are walking everywhere and 1 or 2 lash whips isn't going to win combats for you.

I absolutely can't stand slow units, but that isn't why i take primes either. The prime rivals the Hive tyrant in close combat for far less points.


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Prime; Slow but cheap. You need an HQ, so why not? LW/BS or BS/BS is the question really.
Warriors; LW comes paired with a BS, and costs what, 15 points? Warriors and shrikes are poor units and will not be fielded often.
Venomthropes; Not combat beasts really. Not to mention issues with the Elite choices and the general unpopularity of them.
Tyrant; Crumby expect when....see below.

Not sure why you wouldn't spend 5 points on a lash whip.... 3D6 leadership test for ID is pretty useless. If you want the powerweapon, it still doesn't make sense to not take a lashwhip.

Venomthropes are in the elites section... so the no hive guard does hurt... but with how hard it is to get cover for MC's...the 5+ cover for those missiles on top of FnP becomes increasingly important.


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What, no frag grenades?

One can't help but notice that unlike almost every other race in Warhammer 40,000, the Tyranids do not have factories mass-producing assault grenades to help their shock troops negate cover. However, they are by no means helpless when faced with a capable unit defending a wall or ruin, so long as they make use of unit synergy. The larger creatures and mid-tier weapons can render cover useless to prey - or at least mitigate the damage it helps the prey mete out.

Last edition that didn't matter as much... cruddace is just a dumb gak and wanted to "balance" the army. Tyranids anti-infantry is some of the best in the game... so giving other armies that chance to hit first is how he wanted to make it "fair"

that or he doesn't know how to play and though Move through cover did this.

I vote the later.

I was referring to the viability of shrikes, especially as a deahstar killer.
I have also read a lot about people that play tyranids and their fear of purifiers. the cleansing flame ability against hordes is nasty. But a shrike squad will most often get the charge and if they attempt to use the cleansing flame ability they have to roll 3d6 psychic test. If they do get it off, a FNP boost from a tervigon would help mitigate the damage.
Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

On another note, I am a fan of the Doom of Malantai. I feel with the heavy usage of backfield heavy weapons teams, a Doom dropped in a spod would be a nasty surprise for them. Drop him near the heavy weapons team to get a spirit leech your turn. Then after his spirit leech, shoot the blast at them. Then during their shooting phase another spirit leech on their long fang/devastator squads before they attempt to ID the doom. Which means no missiles/lascannon shots on the MC's, shrikes that are coming for them. Very worthwhile distraction for 130 points.
I have used him one time and it put a wound on mephiston and 7 wounds on one tac squad and 3 wounds on another. Worth the 130 points for Doom and the spod.

My $0.02 cents.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Janthkin wrote:

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Hang on, the rulebook defines 'characters' as both IC's and also Upgrade Characters. Do I understand correctly that GK powers have to be cast by the unit leader (upgrade character)? There might be something in this.

A squad sergeant is not an upgrade character. Nice try though. Even if it DID work, having 1 squad down D3 LD is basically nothing. The only reason it's ever considered good is because it borks enemy psyker characters and makes their psychic hoods weaker giving your doom/zoans/tyrant freer reign to cast.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:On another note, I am a fan of the Doom of Malantai. I feel with the heavy usage of backfield heavy weapons teams, a Doom dropped in a spod would be a nasty surprise for them. Drop him near the heavy weapons team to get a spirit leech your turn. Then after his spirit leech, shoot the blast at them. Then during their shooting phase another spirit leech on their long fang/devastator squads before they attempt to ID the doom. Which means no missiles/lascannon shots on the MC's, shrikes that are coming for them. Very worthwhile distraction for 130 points.
I have used him one time and it put a wound on mephiston and 7 wounds on one tac squad and 3 wounds on another. Worth the 130 points for Doom and the spod.

Too random for my liking. You have to pass the reserve roll (so you are looking turn 2-3 at best, unless you have a HT or Swarmlord for +1 reserves). Then you have to land close enough to 1 or more units. Then your opponent needs to roll poorly on the leech LD test (average on 3d6 is 10.5, so a LD10 unit takes 0.25 wounds after cover saves). Then you have the blast power, which you have to pass a Psychic test for, psychic hood interference, scatter the blast, then you have to contend with cover and the fact it's not likely to be much more then S4 or S5 on the turn it drops.

It's just way too many ways to fail to warrant giving up an elite slot. If it were FA/Heavy support or even HQ or something I'd try to get it in, but I'm not parting with my HG for random possibility to kill stuff. As you play more tournaments you realize that random = bad, you want units that will consistently perform, not random units that are amazing or garbage. This is also why I've retired my Zoanthropes.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:I have also read a lot about people that play tyranids and their fear of purifiers. the cleansing flame ability against hordes is nasty. But a shrike squad will most often get the charge and if they attempt to use the cleansing flame ability they have to roll 3d6 psychic test. If they do get it off, a FNP boost from a tervigon would help mitigate the damage.

The GK player would be slowed to use cleansing flames against shrikes. He's going to be striking first most of the time (with halberds and/or cover) with S4 power weapons that have a decent chance of inflicting instant death. That's assuming he even let's the shrikes get into combat, because if i was the GK player, my psyflemen dreads would be tearing them apart ASAP. Don't forget that in an all comers list, shrikes don't stack up particularly well against most other armies, all they do is mince power armor really. Also, they can take purifier ARMIES, with 4+ squads of the buggers, what then? Cause you aren't going to have more then 1 shrike squad, that's for sure.

The problem with fighting purifiers is that they have to tools to wreck anything. Multiple attacks with power weapons neutralize power armor/terminators. Cleansing flames wrecks hordes. Force weapons let them scare monstrous creatures. Hammer hand comes in useful against T5 or T6 units with 1 wound and good saves (plague marines, bikes and the like.) Their shooting isn't anything to scoff at either with storm bolters and multiple psy-cannons. To top it all off, they are still a Mech Meq unit in a rhino or razorback, so you still have to blow that up first to get to them.

Good GK players aren't going to let their purifiers be touched by the very very few counters out there that can stand against them.

lindsay40k wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Hang on, the rulebook defines 'characters' as both IC's and also Upgrade Characters. Do I understand correctly that GK powers have to be cast by the unit leader (upgrade character)? There might be something in this.

The rulebooks definition of "character" is actually very vague, and there have been several debates on what the deathleapers -D3 leadership works on.


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Too random for my liking. You have to pass the reserve roll (so you are looking turn 2-3 at best, unless you have a HT or Swarmlord for +1 reserves). Then you have to land close enough to 1 or more units. Then your opponent needs to roll poorly on the leech LD test (average on 3d6 is 10.5, so a LD10 unit takes 0.25 wounds after cover saves). Then you have the blast power, which you have to pass a Psychic test for, psychic hood interference, scatter the blast, then you have to contend with cover and the fact it's not likely to be much more then S4 or S5 on the turn it drops.

It's just way too many ways to fail to warrant giving up an elite slot. If it were FA/Heavy support or even HQ or something I'd try to get it in, but I'm not parting with my HG for random possibility to kill stuff. As you play more tournaments you realize that random = bad, you want units that will consistently perform, not random units that are amazing or garbage. This is also why I've retired my Zoanthropes.

Tactic i have seen that strangely work is DON'T deepstrike the DoM. S4 AP1 large blast with 24" range is actually pretty scary as is. You don't need to suicide it...

Though... I don't like the "I don't work against tanks" factor of it, and unlike the venomthrope, it doesn't support the army by making units survive. It is just there...

Yes i agree that the pscycannons and dreadnought shooting will be hard to deal with. I guess my thoughts would be to either to deploy in cover or have a nice out front meat shield of gargoyles and make liberal use of 4+ cover. I will probably lose a model or two, but i plan on making it difficult for the enemy to prioritize their targets. Do i shoot the lone squad of flying warriors with no shooting. Or do i shoot at the trygons, hive gaurd which can blow up the dreads and transports, tyrannofex, tervigons or genestealers. The 2 games that I have used them, they were overlooked until it was too late. The last game was against one of our veteran players who was using BA. He went after my tervigon, hive gaurd and trygon and ignored the other elements. He did good and won the game, but the shrikes were the all stars of the game. I lost by a last turn contest with his stormraven. I am new to tyranids, my 4th game with them and am still proxying a lot of models to figure out which ones work for me. In the last 2 games, the shrikes killed probably double their points and one me the first game I used them. They largely go unnoticed due to a small size, 4 man squad. And most people want to kill the trygon and genestealers that are already in their backfield turn 2. Or the hive gaurd that is blowing up vehicles turn 1.
I am going to try and make room for them in the future games I play. And am thinking of maybe using 2 squads. One with dual boneswords and one with lash whips. If it doesnt work I will go back to one squad. I am still trying to figure out my style. But I feel that the fast moving army fits my style. Genestealers, gargs, trygons and shrikes. Backed up by hive gaurd, and I am going to try a tyrannofex next along with a parasite of mortex.
I read this whole 15 page post and found nobody giving tactics about shirkes or that anybody has used them. Instead I found everyone saying they are too expensive points wise and they might try in the future to use them. I would really like to see someone that plays in tournaments, that is skilled give some advice on how to use them or tactics on them. There was a list someone put on here that took first place in their local tourny scene that used a unit of shrikes. I think they can be used in a tourny list to great effect.

I plan on taking 6 Lictors, a deathleaper and Trygon prime at 1500 to deal with autocannon dreads and razors. The rest of the list will be a tervie HQ and stealer broods w/ broodlord upgrade. I'll see how that goes but I'm optimistic that it could be decent enough counters for what I'm expecting to face. I know that lictors have been maligned on a lot of boards but evry time I field them in squads of three they have dominated an area of the board. I guess I like all those rending S6 attacks that pop out of nowhere.

Interesting, i have not tried lictors yet. I have tried deathleaper and liked using him. I will have to proxy some. I am aiming towards having plenty of cc units that can deal with armor

So I've had what seems like it would be relevant experience to share with the rest of the nid players, especially those starting out. Spearhead sucks when fighting an especially shooty army. No matter how fast you are (my particular list I think was actually quite fast for what nids can produce in that it used a combination of gargoyles, raveners and genestealers) it just doesn't seem to be fast enough when it comes to spearhead or being refused flanked. This whole experience is making me rethink things I had previously dismissed and as an attempt to find ways to make my tyranids experience deeper tactically (and reading a few battle reports) I've decided to give the dakka flyrant a chance on the tabletop.

Hive Tyrant – Wings, 2 Twin-Linked Devourers, Hive Commander, Paroxysm, Leech Essence

Lets examine this loadout because I think it bears serious consideration. First, how does it make nids armies deeper tactically? Well it's a reserve manipulator and allows you to outflank a troop choice that would not normally possess such an ability. This relegates the ability to Troop tervigons (which I think currently is the best option), Hormagaunts (personally I think it's a pretty poor option) and then termagants (which is also a pretty poor option but I could possibly see some utility in using it with Devourer gants). Reserve manipulators naturally will need something to manipulate so if one were to include this unit in their army it would really require some building around. This means looking at multiple units of genestealers/ymargls , possibly raveners for their deepstrike ability, possibly gargoyles for the same, and even trygons.

Now, when judging how to get the best use of these reserve units it should take all armies into consideration especially with so many ways to block off sides or hurt deep strikers through warp quake or even proper deployment. I think the best approach is to have a combination of these kinds of deployment options. Having MSU genestealer units to take advantage of the boost to coming on I think is a hallmark of a list taking advantage of a flyrant. Additionally having some gants to take a troop tervigon would certainly be worthwhile as it gives the access to synapse for those stealers or shadow in the warp vs grey knights.

Realistically looking at the flyrant it's really fragile for almost taking up 300 ( ) points of an army which means there needs to be some way of protecting it. To start with I think the inclusion of a tervigon for FnP is almost required to get any kind of mileage out of him. The second aspect is a way of finding cover. Now this can vary from model to model but just taking the base hive tyrant and adding some wings he can be covered fairly well by raveners, add in some generic terrain and it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get a cover save on top of FnP. Of course the easiest way is to just pack in some gargoyles and really if you just want them as a screen 15 naked gargoyles for 90 points is silly cheap and springing to make them actually deadly for another 30 points is very favorable imo.

A sample list involving a flyrant (which I'll be further playtesting later this week) could look something like the following:

1850

HQ
Hive Tyrant – Wings, 2 Twin-Linked Devourers, Hive Commander, Paroxysm, Leech Essence
Tervigon – Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst

Elites
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2

Troops
Termagants x10
Tervigon – Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Genestealers x9
Genestealers x9
Genestealers x9

Fast Attack
Raveners x4 – Rending Claws
Raveners x4 – Rending Claws
Gargoyles x20 - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

You've got a few options w/Tyranids to help close the gap. Spearhead can be nasty; I hope you're playing on boards that have decent amounts of terrain.

A few things that work very well for me:
1) Large units of (poisoned) genestealers. You rarely outflank these; the idea is to infiltrate 18" out, and be fairly assured of a turn 2 assault. A large unit lets you spread around & guarantee cover saves, as well as stretching back to your own deployment zone for Catalyst support.

2) Zoanthropes in a Spore. Yes, Warp Quake is a problem. But for every OTHER army, they are very disruptive on landing, and they'll land safely.

3) Ymgarl stealers. They have a huge threat radius when they show up, and are well-suited to taking on almost any task. And your opponent can't ignore them, once they arrive.

4) Outflanking 'stealers. I like units of 8, with Toxin sacs, for maximum damage on arrival.

5) Gargoyles. Cheap, and guaranteed turn 2 threats.

The idea is to present multiple threat vectors on turn 2, between out-flankers, deep strikers, infiltrators, and/or fast-movers. If you're going to use Outflanking as a significant part of your list, I'd strongly endorse the Swarmlord, instead of a standard Flyrant.

I find is really anoing that the mawlock is bad.

I have currently converted one coming out of the wrecage of one of the assault of black reach cocpits, it looks good. Not shure swell it will look after I remove his antennas and model his mouth smaler. :(

Niiai wrote:I find is really anoing that the mawlock is bad.

I have currently converted one coming out of the wrecage of one of the assault of black reach cocpits, it looks good. Not shure swell it will look after I remove his antennas and model his mouth smaler. :(

Eh, just tell your opponent it's a Trygon, no need to cut up a cool model (get it in the gallery!). My Mawgon uses bits from all three variants, they look cool. Far as I'm concerned, it's akin to putting Halberd heads on a Spearmen unit for cosmetic value.

The mawloc isn't bad at all. I use two of them. And even if I test for Warp Quake ... so what. I take a wound at worst. I"m already testing out my mawloc list against GK and I like it. They have to get out of their vehicles to fire their psycannons. They want to castle up mid table. New wisdom is promoting ymgarls and toxic stealers. That's fine. I'm sure it works too. I'll be outflanking a rav squad, and Dsing zoans in pods, deathleaper and mawlocs.

And the deathleaper is super against a lot of armies. Rune Priests, Libbies with shrouding and sanctuary, etc., etc. He's what regular lictors should be. Not that 12 WS6 rending attacks are bad. Combined with the flesh hook shots and frag ability. I use lictors occasionaly in a game but if I'm getting serious I'll just tale the leaper.

I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play and it causes hits.

I also think outflanking raveners is not possible. Remember Hive Commander only allows a Troops choice to outflank.

Stealers now also have problems as I found out. Servo skulls stop infiltrators in their tracks. I used to run a genestealer heavy list that would hit turn 2 along with an assortment of other gribblies. Now that they can't do that effectively you are a lot further away and more vulnerable to firepower on the way in.

Lukus83 wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play

You mean, until a revised FAQ for either army comes down on the side of the fleshthings?

I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play and it causes hits.

You misunderstand my tactics. I'm going to drop outside of the 12" turn two. I will then move within the distance for SitW with all my MCs and stop the shenanigans. I might lose a turn of Mawloc dropping by burrowing outside the zone. And you need to agree the mishap is avoided.

If you're planning on keeping the Mawloc away until you can lockdown WQ, just deploy it and have it burrow a turn before you a confident of getting your SitW units into position. It doesn't have to enter play by DS.

Just lost a game to GK this afternoon. I used this list.

===A Mawloc Away From the Grave ===[i]

Tyranid Prime (110): Bonesword and Lash Whip, Deathspitter, Regeneration
Tyranid Prime (110): Bonesword and Lash Whip, Deathspitter, Regeneration

Deathleaper (140): Flesh Hooks
2 Zoanthrope Brood (120): Warp Blast, Warp Lance
2 Venomthrope Brood (110): Lash Whip, Toxic Masma

Tervigon (200): Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught, Cluster Spines
14 Termagants (70): Fleshborers
3 Warrior Brood (150): Twin Boneswords, Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Venom Cannon
3 Warrior Brood (150): Twin Boneswords, Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Venom Cannon

Mawloc (170): Teeth and Claws
Mawloc (170): Teeth and Claws

Honestly ... the list deseved better than my play. I did manage to neutralize his GKSSsquad with SitW. I could have assaulted and possibly beat them down in time anyway. My Mawlocs came in turn three. I reallyb felt the lack of AT at times but it wasn't terrible. MCs can deal with armor too. And Mawlocs can get in their lines quickly. My Zoans thanks to numerous ways of granting them cover, FNP and their own INv. lasted the whole game anyway! The only unit I'm not entorely sold on are the Venomthrpoes though they did save some fatalitities and drew a lot of fire. I forgot how easy it is to contest and got my mawloc and deathleaper unvailable for the last minute contests. Bad play on my part. I also should have used the Primes more effectively ... I used one early in the Zoan squad and the Venom squad and was a turn late reuniting with the warriors. My timing and distances were off all game. You know the one thing we CANNOT do with Nids - make tactical errors. We always pay heavily for them.

Overall, GK were very tough. Psycannons and autocannons make a firefight a bit too tough for use even when we bring deathspitters, barbed starnglers and warp blasts. The good tthing is they want to demech, castle up and shoot all their weapons. It is an exploitable weakness that I did not take full advantage of.

Hulksmash wrote:Disagree w/where you put the Parasite and Gargoyles. Both are awesome and both have excellent uses.

Agreed. He should also reconsider the Venomthropes. In this Long Fangs and Grey Knights happy field, he's become an invaluable tool. Lets us go before halberds in combat, and stops 20% of the krak missiles.

I've seen some mention them, but why doesn't more people use Ymgral stealers? As Janthkin said, when they arrive via Dormant, they have a threat radius of 13-18 inches, and since you get to choose where they arrive (granted, you need to have a target in mind when choosing terrain), that distance shouldn't be a problem. Sure they take slots away from guards and zoans, but they're gppd enough to take out most tanks anyway. Only flaw I see with them is the lack of assualt grenades. My favorite use for them is against Lootas/longfangs etc, stuff you know will stay still

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask but what would be a fairly cost effective and effective on the the battlefield list? hopefully without a Tervigon even though their effective I don't like the idea fluff or any models.

A list withouth the tervigon? I do not know how to do that man.

I would sugest perhaps a pod list? If any store stills els easter eggs in your land that could be a good place to start.

For zynapse you can eather mass warriors (I have never known any peson who has had luck with that) zoanthropes or primes.

One thing not necessarily focused on is the strength of combining a single tyranid prime with a single carnifex, especially at lower points. In fact, I would go so far as to make it a specific tactic that is most viable at lower points only. The general focus has been to combine a unit of two carnifex with two primes, but there is nothing in the rules to indicate that a single carnifex is still not a unit of carnifexes.

The reason I mention this as a tactic at lower points (let's say 1500 as opposed to 2k+) is that it is something you can just squeak in, points-wise, at 1500. Similar to an effective Ork kan-wall, you get all the strengths just barely afforded at that points cost. An example 1500 pts list that takes advantage of these units:

2x Prime w/ dual boneswords

3x3 Hive Guard

2x Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal, Poison
2x10 Gaunts

2x Individual Carnifex w/ 2x Talons (because this list is lacking an answer to av13 walkers and av14 vehicles)

Looks good, I'll give it a whirl when I've got Tervigons and a bunch more HG.

Anyone got any thoughts on how best to arm a Prime that's joining a Lash Whip Tyrant Guard deathstar? I've got a Swarmlord and a VC/ST Tyrant (usually takes Hive Commander and Old Adversary; contributes to vehicle suppression until it gets close and then switches to supporting chargers), and want to build a Prime for each one.

I'm thinking of a cheap Regen sponge for the Swarmlord, perhaps with RC/DS and Toxins (If Swarmlord unit charges, it'll likely put PE on itself, so no need for ST; the unit's in no need of additional ID attacks, so BS seems excessive; DS synergies with Paroxysm/Leech combo, don';t want to drive them off with a Dev), and a Regen/dual BS/Dev/Toxin combo for the Venomtyrant (to give the unit punch against Wraithlords etc).

Aside: I know ST is somewhat redundant on an Old Adversary, but it might help tip a Land Raider or down a Falcon, and talons are an essential part of the conversion I did on my Tyrant :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Having chanced upon a tactica blog, I see Swarmlord + Swordguards + Whipprime being recommended, in particular for 1850+ with a Tervigon throwing down FNP. It was recommended to build the army around delivering this deathstar, and it seems to me like a list would benefit from Flankstealers and Spod Doom to really help herd the prey and synergy with Swarmlord's abilities. Thoughts, anyone?

Since Prime is an IC i the deathstar i would recomend LW/BS, to put anyone based with him at initiative 1. Then regen, I wouldn't recommend the DS on prime, because your going to want to run your deathstar.

maybe look at ymgarl stealers to corral your enemy to the deathstar, and definitely flankstealers, especially with swarmlord granting them advantage. doom Spod is a great idea too but it a costly distraction, my guess is your going to try and drop it between your Deathstar and the enemy by turn 2, blocking some LoS and drawing fire for a turn? since you will be fielding the Tervigon as a troop choice, might i suggest that the Termagaunts get the Spod instead? Still a distraction but less costly. I am not saying i don't like doom, just that for what you have in in mind for isn't really his forte, at least not IMO

Good point regarding the need to run for a few turns making ranged weapons a waste, LW/BS/ST it is.

I was more thinking about dropping Doomie behind prey gunlines to force them to move or take damage. Deep Striking my cover in feels a bit unreliable, I'd be more prepared to try this with a multiple Spod list.

I see what you mean, make the heavy weapons teams move instead of shoot. or corral them closer, I like it.

lindsay40k wrote:Good point regarding the need to run for a few turns making ranged weapons a waste, LW/BS/ST it is.

I was more thinking about dropping Doomie behind prey gunlines to force them to move or take damage. Deep Striking my cover in feels a bit unreliable, I'd be more prepared to try this with a multiple Spod list.

I warn you, this won't always work against good players.

2 Possibilities;

1. Enemy is so tightly packed you can't land the doom safely, and need to risk landing elsewhere.
2. Enemy is slightly scattered, so you'll have a hard time getting more then 1 or 2 units into his aura.

A good player will use a rhino or other light transport to tank shock and move the Doom out of the way instead of moving his infantry and costing him heavy weapons fire.

Fine by me if they bunch up, I like to take Biovores so that's high density targets for them (and also for Cataclysm, and for the Spod's strangler). And if they scatter, this is a Swarmlord list = accurate Flankstealers = easier charges.

I agree with the earlier point about not building a list around Doomie, but she has a great role to play in psychological warfare and supports 'mistake punishing' lists well IMO.

Aside: I had her nom a couple of Sanguinary Guard in melee then charge a Baalpred and blow it to pieces just this evening

You cna't build a list around the doom of malantai, but as long as you have some decent anti tank he is quite good to just throw in there. He can winn games at random, and in worst case he has zynapse.

Niiai wrote:You cna't build a list around the doom of malantai ... in worst case he has zynapse.

Actually, the doom isn't a synapse creature, he has instinctive behavior -- feed, and lacks the synapse special rule. As much as he looks like a zoanthrope, or we talk about his great psychic power, he doesn't have a connection to the hive mind. Or at least that's my understanding from the RAW

Whoooot. And so you are right.

It has shadow in the warp though. I always thought that was when your oponent entered into zynapse, but aparantly not. :-)

All is not lost though, when you drop pod the Doom in, he'll either pass his leadership, move, absorb wounds, and use cataclysm, or fail his leadership, rage, absorb wounds and charge into the nearest enemy. He's been FAQ'd as having a zoanthrope's Warp Field, so he has a 3+ invuln which if you're lucky will keep him alive, especially if you can get him into melee with GEQ's, or MEQ's without power weapons. His power should still go off every shooting phase, even if he's in melee ( since it's not listed as a psychic shooting attack but just happens to go off in the shooting phase ) doing decent damage.

Marginally less effective than if he was synapse, but he's still only 90 pts. I don't use him personally but I imagine he'd still be cost effective.

Where's the part about him having a Warp Field?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490299a_FAQ_Tyranids_2010.pdf

It is the part about do lkhsadlkasdnlkasdfFØJ count as the bla bla bla bla.

"Yes on all acounts."

Third page, left column, top of the page.

"..., is the Doom of Malan’tai considered to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field..."
"A: Yes in all cases"

Thanks - I totally missed it!

Hulksmash mentions in the OP that Devourer 'gants are good in some lists. Could anyone care to elaborate please?

Devilgants are generally best used in a spod (though they can work outflanking with Hive Commander, and potentially foot-slogging with a cheaper Gant screen in front).

for 240pnts you can drop down where needed and put out 60 Str4 shots. that's about 5 dead marines (or 1 dev/LF squad) or a whole pile of GEQ. depending on positioning though, synapse can then be a problem, along with being charged.

Generally I find better uses for my points, though they could fit in nicely to a Spod list.

Well they are expensive, at 10 pts per gaunt, but they pack 3 times the punch and force leadership tests.

I wouldn't give them any other upgrades though, either run them with devourers for extremely shooty gaunts, or just fleshborers for extremely cheap gaunts.

I'm not sure what else you'd like to know?

Anyone thought about throwing in a Strangleweb or two and a Barbed Strangler on the Spod? That'd make it fairly likely to throw two pinning tests at the enemy, to go with their -1Ld morale check.

Stranglewebs only affect models that fail the str test (not likely) and it's dangerous putting a template weapon on the Spod as it can scatter onto your cloesly packed gants. I prefer cluster spines since that's another chance to try popping a tank's rear armor.

Strength 4 is far too common in most armies, and as such, strangle webs will be wounding on 6s (even on strength 3, you are talking about wounding on 5s). On top of that, the victims still get thier armour saves. So you will seldom, if ever, force a unit to take a pinning check. If the upgrade came free, I would say "heah, why not". But at 15 points you are better off just spending the points elsewhere.

I am just wondering one thing: I am a big fan of the bigs bugs (I have 1 mawlock, 2 trygons, the swarmlord, a hive tyrant, 2 tervigons, 1 tyranofex and 1 carnifex and some drop spores :p )

However agaunst the 3 worst matchup for ouer codex IMHO gunline IG, raider DE and GK is it not better to have a lott of smaler monsters like the gargoyles?

I actualy do not own ant homogaunts, but it would seem to me that these also would be really good.

Of course dakkagaunts in a drop spore is also good once you pop the transport.

What are your musings over this? The shortcomming of the little once if of course a lack of zynapse and/or the lack of opening even AV10, not to say AV 14.

You should add SW to your list of bad matchups.

The problem with Hormies is that once you add poison and furious charge to make them good, you are at 10 pts per model.

Compare that to:

1) naked genestealers wich have rending, infiltrate, T4, WS6, and 5+ save for only 4pts more
2) gargoyles (with glands and sacs) that can move 12", better screen TMC, and come with guns

The hormie ends up coming out less valuable.

SW is bad but it is not as bad as the other 3.

dalarist wrote:Well they are expensive, at 10 pts per gaunt, but they pack 3 times the punch and force leadership tests.

I wouldn't give them any other upgrades though, either run them with devourers for extremely shooty gaunts, or just fleshborers for extremely cheap gaunts.

I'm not sure what else you'd like to know?

How about a group of 10 or so to be used to just sit on an objective that is in cover?

It strikes me that ten nekkid Gaunts on an objective can sit below the threat radar for long enough that your other units can take out threats to them, whereas if they've each got a heavy stubber they suddenly become a lot higher priority to get taken out. Also, if I objective camp Gaunts, I'll probably want to have them go to ground at the first incoming, which would waste any gun upgrades.

I find the minigaunt unit is fairly effective, either at flying beneath the radar, or at forcing your enemy to divert effort to dealing with them. It is rare that their objective actually wins a game, and they are a liability in KP, but they have come in handy.

I take a tervigon to produce these naked gaunts for free, that way I don't buy units that sit on objectives, and then move my devourer gaunts forward to press the attack, or hold back. Whatever the situation calls for.

Niiai wrote:SW is bad but it is not as bad as the other 3.

See, I witness and hear a whole lot of the opposite. Especially since 3 out of 4 rounds at a tournament will likely pit a player against Space Wolves/counts-as Space Wolves.

Long Fangs and Razorspam make life difficult for us. TWC are no picnic either. And oh yeah, Jaws insta-kills a lot of our monsters. The Spods actually work well in this match. If you can get some backfield disruption on the Long Fangs, you stand a fighting chance at the rest of the army.

I like the Devourer Gaunts. Usually i take them in units of 20 in a spod. Without the spod they usually get shot off of the table. THough when you take a unit of 30 along with FNP and lots of cover, they can draw alot of fire and prove to be a reliable shooter as well.

Hmm. A JotWW Missilefang army could be a real sod. Has anyone tried Spodding Warriors en masse (with Deathleaper support) at all? That might work for shutting down Rune Priests; they could land in cover, taking the dangerous terrain tests on the chin, and throw out some fearsome firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
> Grey Knights

Ah, nuts.

I am not saying SW is not bad. It is bad, but it is not one of the top 3.

Dark Eldar: They move faster then you do, they shoot better then you do, there weaponds are more dangerush then yours (4+ or 2+.) They can generaly just dance around you allday and unles you have the right list there will be little or no interaction between the tyranid and the dark eldar. The game will be like a monolog.

Imperial guard gunline: Unless you are running 40 genestealers and tervigon with feel no pain they will shoot us up for 1 to 2 turns before they just kite us around. (This is baysicly what the SW do as well with razorbacks and longfangs. Yes the SW got counter attack but the IG will shoot us down better and it is harder to take out tanks then long fangs. Due to the damadge table.)

Grey Knights: While GK got a very low modelcount witch we like they do have superior firepower. While we usualy want to be 18" they can be 24". Agaunst all ouer melle units they can kite and fall back. Aparantly many of the good lists have a lott of halberds with enough attacks and a psycic power will destroy ouer MC's. (Shadow in the warp will help here but it is a bit of a gamle.)

I am not saying SW is not bad but an all commers SW list will usualy be easier then the 3 mentioned above. I would think that they would come in at at definetive 4th but behind the others. (If of course you use a LOTT of tyranofexes and tervigons and he uses a lott of rune priests this will swing the pendulum, but usualy there are better all commers powers in the SW codex.)

I cannot rank the rest because I really do not care so mutch about them but all of these 3 (or 4) will be found in the shooting department.

SW is far worse to play against then GK in my opinion. They have the best cc units at the cost - counter charging GH with a wolf guard leader and some nifty upgrades, the WLs are just OP at times, the Rune Priests have powers that can really hurt us, LFs have wicked Dakka output ... they just set up their rhino or razor wall and become very tough to deal with.

As for devilgants in pods ... I just played SW last night and used a list that had:

== per turn ==

- 153 devourer shots
- 7 venom cannon blasts
- 6 tentacle shots
- 4 warp lance/warp blast shots
- random strength Doom attack (he got up to S10 eventually)

I could say it was a close game but it really wasn't. I know he did not expect the list and was taken by surprise when he lost three rhinos turn two. It was tricky setting up the drops but in the end it was pretty devastating.

It is all pod list that creates havoc. Now you would think thsat GK with good drop defense could beat it but I will test out that theory. I don't have to drop within 12". The pods van goive me cover for a turn hopefully. I will lose one round of devil shooting but I sill have my Venoms and my Warp blast/lance. Doom will be much trickier to use as i will have to run him into position.

So I just put up the first part in a series on my thoughts for how to build a list without Big Bugs/I1. Check it out here:

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/05/jotww-can-suck-it-building-nid-list.html

This is actually the best place to include a Prime - he attaches to a Hive Guard squad, and gives them a little counter-assault buff, while keeping them pointed in the right direction. But I'd find a few more points to give him some sharper teeth. Dual-swords is nice, but a Deathspitter is actually pretty handy in the latter stages of many games, after you've stopped cracking rhinos & started trying to finish off the last few marines in a squad. The Prime is also the only place I've ever been happy with Regeneration, as it's cheap on him, and he likes to absorb AP4 fire on behalf of the Hive Guard.

I think you can spare the 20 pts from the Hormagaunts - as their job is just a) screen; and b) park on a backfield objective, I don't think the improvement over a termagant is worth paying for.

And, personally, I'd much rather have 37 poisoned Genestealers over 45 not-poisoned genestealers. The difference in damage potential against every target in the game is non-trivial, and downright significant against T<=4.

I did that Janth

If you read down to the bottom he's the last 90pts I added for the exact reasons you stated.

Hulksmash wrote:I did that Janth

If you read down to the bottom he's the last 90pts I added for the exact reasons you stated.

Yeah, my comment was a work in progress - see the number of edits!

Oh - and I fear for your complete lack of threat to AV14 targets. Of late, I've been experimenting with walking Zoanthropes, with interesting results. Most AV14 targets want to advance on you, and Warp Lance scares the bejeebus out of them. But there are so many anti-psychic toys in certain MEQ toyboxes....

Hulk, I like your list:

HQarasite-160
HQ: Prime-90
3xElite:3 Hive Guard-150(450)
Troop: 20 Hormagants-120
3xTroop: 15 Genestealers-210(630)
2xFast Attack: 5 Raveners-175(350)
Fast Attack: 25 Gargoyles-200

However you have no anti AV14. all commers list should be abel to deal with it. How about dropping 3 hiveguards for 3 zoanthropes?

felixcat wrote:
SW is far worse to play against then GK in my opinion. They have the best cc units at the cost - counter charging GH with a wolf guard leader and some nifty upgrades, the WLs are just OP at times, the Rune Priests have powers that can really hurt us, LFs have wicked Dakka output ... they just set up their rhino or razor wall and become very tough to deal with.

As for devilgants in pods ... I just played SW last night and used a list that had:

== per turn ==

- 153 devourer shots
- 7 venom cannon blasts
- 6 tentacle shots
- 4 warp lance/warp blast shots
- random strength Doom attack (he got up to S10 eventually)

I could say it was a close game but it really wasn't. I know he did not expect the list and was taken by surprise when he lost three rhinos turn two. It was tricky setting up the drops but in the end it was pretty devastating.

It is all pod list that creates havoc. Now you would think thsat GK with good drop defense could beat it but I will test out that theory. I don't have to drop within 12". The pods van goive me cover for a turn hopefully. I will lose one round of devil shooting but I sill have my Venoms and my Warp blast/lance. Doom will be much trickier to use as i will have to run him into position.

Can you post your list?

In this list I don't like the idea of removing the redundency (sp?) of the extra hive guard for the off chance of running into an LR. I realize the only model on the entire army that can kill an LR is the Parasite and even then it would need to be a golden bb for it to happen. But I just don't see Landraiders that much when I play in major events or even local RTT's so for me I consider it an acceptable risk. It's still an all comers list. to do any damage they'll still have to get out

If your local meta does include LR's from time to time then it might be a worthwhile change for you. I'm just to big a fan of Hive Guard in a straight up list. Now in my reserve build you'll see some Zoans

Janthkin wrote:I think you can spare the 20 pts from the Hormagaunts - as their job is just a) screen; and b) park on a backfield objective, I don't think the improvement over a termagant is worth paying for.

Moreover, unless the prime is within 12", "parking" hormies on objectives won't be viable. Then again, I think as a screening unit, the idea is that they won't be in the backfield but advancing midfield with the prime.

And, personally, I'd much rather have 37 poisoned Genestealers over 45 not-poisoned genestealers. The difference in damage potential against every target in the game is non-trivial, and downright significant against T<=4.

While I agree that the damage potential is tremedous, you are reducing the units survivability against ranged shooting and against those assualts where you have no choice but to engage an enemy in cover. In the recent games I have played I tend to still lose a large number of genestealers even with the benefit of Catalyst and having those extra bodies around towards the later stages has won me several games. Given that Hulk lacks catalyst in this list, I would be even more inclined to take as many bodies as I could.

Having only 2 synapse sources does worry me as you have 7 units with low leadership scores.

In regards to the synapse the Prime should manage to keep at least the HG's in line along with the screen of hormies. That accounts for 4 of the low leadership units. The Parasite will be running with the Gargs so that's not an issue.

The only remaining units is the raveners. Which I actually use as a missile. They charge at range, if they win generally the other guy doesn't run. If they lose it's normally in my opponents phase and they run (generally fast) right back into my envelope allowing me to charge again

Much like I used to use hormagants in the last edition of the codex. Poor man's Hit-n-Run

I'm curious Hulksmash, do you fear Jaws when using Trygons (don't they only get removed on a 6?), or is the removal more because of FW spam that will be popping up? I ask this in a case where terrain is not a problem.

IF terrain isn't a problem then I think Trygons can work just fine. It is a little riskier based on the current meta but I do love my Trygons. My favorite is combining Trygons and Raveners

Hulksmash in my local scen the top 2 lists of the 50 participating is:

Mefiston
+
2x10 assault marines
2x5 assault terminators
2x1 sanguin priest
2x Flame Landraiders

Fresh form the internett. Cheesy and easy to paint.

Why cheesy? Because all the kids do not prepesre for a land raider, lett alone 2, so you get a free walkover for half the field. DE would of course laugh at this. As would GK. None of them where about in the scene.

In short, always have a LR plan. The year before that the winner was a Chaos marine with 3 land raiders. :p

As per request here is the latest rendition ...

Flyrant, Lw/BS, HVC, HC, Paroxysm, Leech 280

3x 16 Devilgants, Spore, Venom Cannon 660

2x 2 Zoans, Spore, Venom Cannon 360

Tervigon, Cat, AG, Toxin, Scytals, CS 200 - outflanks

Be careful using this list ... depending on the opponent I might just keep a squad of devs on the table with the Terv and Tyrant and DS all the other stuff including an empty pod. Or I might try to hide the lone Flyrant turn one if I think there isn't enough S8 to take him down in one turn. Or I can reserve everything.

Hulksmash wrote:IF terrain isn't a problem then I think Trygons can work just fine. It is a little riskier based on the current meta but I do love my Trygons. My favorite is combining Trygons and Raveners

Are you DS'ing them, or running up the table?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

felixcat wrote:As per request here is the latest rendition ...

Flyrant, Lw/BS, HVC, HC, Paroxysm, Leech 280

3x 16 Devilgants, Spore, Venom Cannon 660

2x 2 Zoans, Spore, Venom Cannon 360

Tervigon, Cat, AG, Toxin, Scytals, CS 200 - outflanks

Be careful using this list ... depending on the opponent I might just keep a squad of devs on the table with the Terv and Tyrant and DS all the other stuff including an empty pod. Or I might try to hide the lone Flyrant turn one if I think there isn't enough S8 to take him down in one turn. Or I can reserve everything.

That's been nerfed by the FAQ, I'm afraid.

@Lindsay

I always run my Trygons. I'm generally in combat the same turn as if I deepstrike (sooner if they don't come in turn 2) and it presents more T6 threats on the table when I use them.

I always found it funny how SM could drop an empty pod but Nids couldn't...

But then the entire (or at least majority) FAQ seemed intent on nerfing, not clarifying rules.

I played 2 games with the bugs yesterday just trying different things and experimenting with "other" units. I was really impressed by catalyst on a unit of 9 raveners toting rending claws and scything talons. They netted double their points against mech SW and also managed to finish a BA deathstar Assault Terminators but I only had 2 left and it took 3 turns.

I like them alot so far and think that they are generally undervalued.

cheers!

It's a good thing I did not opt to drop the pod without the termies yet. I should have read the FaQ closer. I have always outflanked the terv so far and taken my chances with the dice rolls. Unfortunately there is most often not enough terrain on a board to hide a Tyrant effectively from a plethora of high strength weapons. If I don't see a spam missile list, etc., I deploy him on table.

Hulksmash wrote:In this list I don't like the idea of removing the redundency (sp?) of the extra hive guard for the off chance of running into an LR. I realize the only model on the entire army that can kill an LR is the Parasite and even then it would need to be a golden bb for it to happen. But I just don't see Landraiders that much when I play in major events or even local RTT's so for me I consider it an acceptable risk. It's still an all comers list. to do any damage they'll still have to get out

If your local meta does include LR's from time to time then it might be a worthwhile change for you. I'm just to big a fan of Hive Guard in a straight up list. Now in my reserve build you'll see some Zoans

Or if it's objective capturing and they run raider rush, well you know the rest.

Unless I pull them in round 1 IV I don't think I'll ever see a Raider rush. Not with DE being a solid army build and all the melta out there and st10 guard shooting.

@Just2fierce

I agree. Raveners are amazing! I've been running 5 man units and they just murder 10 man marine squads. They're so fast and resilient against anything not toting st8 it's ridiculous.

Hulksmash wrote:Unless I pull them in round 1 IV I don't think I'll ever see a Raider rush. Not with DE being a solid army build and all the melta out there and st10 guard shooting.

@Just2fierce

I agree. Raveners are amazing! I've been running 5 man units and they just murder 10 man marine squads. They're so fast and resilient against anything not toting st8 it's ridiculous.

Raveners are underrated, mostly because at first glance they don't seem like they are "Super Awesome" CC beasts. However, Raveners are the amazing when fighting basic troop unity, hell I would feel good about charging those bugs into even 30-man boyz squads (If they don't have a PK in there). I mean, if I take 6 with Scytals, thats 30 attacks that you get to reroll for hit, decent strength means they will hit on 4+ against MEQ's, and the boyz will most likely fail there saves. Sure, the boyz will hit back with another 30 attacks (assuming 15 of them die), but they wont win the combat. They will probably loose by a huge margin (Especially if you give the Raveners FNP before the charge), and the raveners will probably get the Sweeping advance and wipe out the squad. Its sheer brilliance. Raveners are really underrated, I always run them though in most my lists. They fit well in most lists as an anti-troop choice.

With a large charge distance, they're fantastic for multi-charging to tie high toughness fearless units into the same big brawl as a unit that takes heavy casualties and throw loads of auto wounds at them.

It's kind of hard to fit them in a 1500 list with a Tervigon and troops. I would play two squads if I could get AT in the list.

100 Prime
300 2x3 HG
500 2 tervigons + 2x10 termigants
350 2x5 rending raveners
250 Trygon Prime, adrenal glands

Doesn't seem too hard to get solid anti-tank, multi-tervigons as well as 10 raveners.

@Carnage

Drop the prime for the same number of Genestealers and you've got a solid 1,500pt list. Or you could go the 36 T6 wounds at 1,500 route

I wouldn't play a list like that personally. I strongly dislike Tervigons/termagants. I typically play a genestealer heavy list.

Genestealer lists work really well actually. Just have to be careful without FnP they are much more succeptable to damage.

My thoughts are there that there are several different builds out of this book that are competitive if you just look at it as a completely different book.

Yeah the nids codex is actually pretty competitive, its just the most obvious build is 2 tervigons.

Yeah the nids codex is actually pretty competitive, its just the most obvious build is 2 tervigons.

Well now having looked through the Faq and all our various nerfs, and having looked at what we are likely to face - SW, IG, BA, DE - the two Terv, two T-Fex, four to none HG build makes sense as being the most consistent from 1500-1750. Not that I'm playing it. But I could see myself being swayed in that direction if I face enough SM and DE lists. The Nid codex is still behind the newest releases so we have to play the best available unit in each slot. We can go shooty or cc - I agree - but I think shooty will probably win more games then dual Trygon/warrior/ravener/ stealer lists. All said toxic/fnp gants work and do damage and are the cheapest troop we have. Thus the dual Tervs.

I still think Nid CC-orieted lists are possible, especially if you go with a genestealer/Swarmlord combo or Flyrant/gargoyles combo.

I think the problem with Nids in the competitive arena is that you can't just focus on buying units to fill specific roles like with other armies. You need to think about how the whole army will move together and work together. Although other armies have to do this to a degree, I think it's more important with the Nids as you need to use movement/special abilities to make up for some of their apparent weaknesses (rather then just different weapons/toughness/armour). You can also use a fair degree of psychology to help win games with Nids, though most players tend to shy away from this as it's less predictable... and therefore not consistent enough for tourny play.

How effective are Ymgrals & Lictors at;

A) Psychological impact, as Slice'n'dice mentioned

B) Actually killing things. And what is the ideal number to do this or what are the best targets?

Razerous wrote:How effective are Ymgrals & Lictors at;

A) Psychological impact, as Slice'n'dice mentioned

B) Actually killing things. And what is the ideal number to do this or what are the best targets?

I won't speak for Lictors. Ymgarls are great, though - they give your opponent reason to avoid area terrain, when they would otherwise want to cling to it, and they start screwing with your opponent from deployment onwards.

7 or 8 is about right. Fewer, and you can't guarantee killing things like Long Fangs or Daemon Princes. More tends to be overkill - you generally only get to jump on a single target, before your opponent directs a lot of attention their way.

I am new to 'nids and therefore have little to add other than "this looks pretty" but I just wanted to post and say thanks for making this thread. I found it really helpful to see all the different viewpoints and how different people use each unit.

Lictors have a reputation though. And Ymgarls are impossible to pronounce. Makes them much less terrifying.

"I'm sending out my Ymgarls!"

"Your girls?"

"No, my Ymgarls! They're in the woods!"

"You have worms in your wood? Eww..."

"No, my Ym- you know what, forget it. My 'Special Genestealers' are assaulting you."

@ Razerous: Ymgarls are generally better on both accounts. But lets look at both.

Lictors
Lictors can either be taken as 1) a distraction, or 2) hidden death.
1) The classic come out and say Boo! that everyone talks about. Not very effective shooting on arrival (unless you're lucky enough to take out a vehicle) and will generally get shot to pieces in your opponents turn. The latter part is the point of the strategy, to force your opponents target priority to be on your Lictors rather than your other units. Most people however would just prefer to take more of 'the other units' instead of the Lictors.

2) This is the less used tactic, as it often requires a good terrain setup to be effective. Here you use LOS blocking terrain to ensure your opponents heavy weapons can't target your Lictors. This allows you to deny large areas of the board from your opponent, along with possibly getting a charge off with your Lictors for anything that comes close. This tactic often comes into its own with a spod list. Here you don't need to rely so much on LOS blocking terrain, because you're bringing your own with you (it is a monstrous creature after all!). ps - this doesn't work very well against highly mobile armies like DE, but then I believe either a Spod or Gargoyle heavy list is required against the dark poisonous pointy ones.

Ymgarls
These guys are great. They often get your opponents thinking twice about their deployment and movement, and can charge the turn they come in. Even a small unit of 5 can cause serious deploy/movement headaches for your enemy, especially the much hated Long Fangs. 5 will hopefully allow you to maximise their usefulness by having CC carry over into his turn so you can kill the last Long Fang(s), then charge into his next unit in your turn. The only downside to Ymgarls, is that they share a slot with Hive Guard and Zoeys (ok I know not everyone is keen on Zoeys but you'll all at least agree with me on the Hive Guard).

I would like to support the statement that Ymgarls are a fantastic unit.

I personally use mine in conjunction with spore mines and outflanking genestealers, the amount of 'deployment-zone-threat radius' offered is actually unequaled. The opponent is put under a lot of pressure from the beginning of the game and the spore mines can even be use to 'herd' the enemy toward the Ymgarls or the board edges. It really makes camping units quite difficult to play, as almost regardless of where the opponent deploys, they feel threatened by one of three tyranid nasties.

Gets even better if you throw some burrowing mawlocks into the mix; really, no other codex can plonk so many threat radii into the opponent's deployment zone.

A thousand apologies if this has already been brought up, but I'm a bit confused about the Deathleaper strat. Can't he only leave during his own movement phase.

lucasbuffalo wrote:A thousand apologies if this has already been brought up, but I'm a bit confused about the Deathleaper strat. Can't he only leave during his own movement phase.

I believe the strat is to have him appear during the start of his movement, disappear at the end of his movement, rinse and repeat until turn five whereupon he appears on an objective and camps for denial.

It's not been FAQ'd away yet, but IMO it probably will be.

Lictor can go toe-to-toe with Walker (for better result, use 2 of it as 1 unit) with its Strength 6, high initiative, Rending, reroll fail of 1 to-hit. Also, it's shooting attack is S6 with rending and count as assault weapon, even though it's only 6" range, but it can assault after shooting.

Also, Lictor has Stealth so deploy it somewhere around a terrain so no worry about getting shot.

The deathleaper is also very good at picking off induvidual targets. His special night fighting rules makes him hard to kill, and unlees you have S8 he will munch you in CC.

How are you guys dealing with GKs as Tyranid players?

I currently have been using dual and triple Trygons to really good effect against most opponents but every time I play grey knights I feel like they are a liability with all of those force weapons floating around (and they are).

I like them as Dread hunters as they laugh as Pysflemen, and they still rock at popping any type of vehicle. But against high initiative, high strength force weapons, they are just wasted points.

I have been thinking of dropping down to 1 Trygon (still the best tank popper in the list, IMO and great for killing so many other things) and then filling out the points I have left with even more Steelers and gargoyles. I just think that with the inevitable prevalence of GKs in the tournament scene, any multi-wound assault oriented Bug is wasted points.

Thoughts?

reecius: Solo trygons have never done anything good for me, i've always had to run them solo. Recently I've dropped them altogether for, you guessed it, more stealers and gargoyles. Tank popping is still a huge issue, but at least against grey knights they tend to be outside of their tins. A stealer has a reasonable chance of cracking open a rhino or chimera and if you take them in large enough numbers (i'm running groups of 15 right now) they typically survive to get assaulted after being shot at.

Not an ideal situation, but that's why you have 6 hive guard in the list as well, right?

Reecius wrote:How are you guys dealing with GKs as Tyranid players?

BoneSword and Lashwhip on Warrior. Devourer on gants. Toxin Sacs on Hormies. Mass Troops swarming, Venomthrope for cover save, Gargoyles.
GK is good at killing Nid MC and Psyker due to the force weapon, with the banner, they auto-pass the psychic test for force weapon, which mean your Hive Tyrant will go bye bye in 1 turn.

Paladin can be a really pain in the butt due to their 2 wounds, fee-no-pain and invul.save.

@king88mob
You make a good point about the single Trygon, it will then become the target for every anti-tank weapon on the board. The single Trygon prime though, does add mobile shadows in the warp which is really useful. It will take some experimentation.

I currently run 3 hive guard, 3 zoeys and 8 ymgarls but was considering switching to 6 hive guard and 8 ymgarl as the hive guard are so much more consistent. However, zoeys add extra shadows and synapse to help shore up those little bugs. Again, it will take some experimentation.

@mr. gold
I agree that gargoyles, and devogants are a great solution. Devogants will waste purifiers once they are out of their cans. I'm not sold on venomthropes though as they occupy slots taken by more valuable units (IMO). And I have no luck with warriors. They are over costed, and against grey knights will be wasted points as those extra wounds are a total waste against force weapons and psyfilmen.

I really think the key to beating the new GKs is massed single wound bugs, baring HQ units and Hive Guard. They ignore force weapons, strength 8 shooting and can either shoot or assault most things to death. The problem then lies in making an army that can deal with both GKs and other top tier builds.

@reecius: This may sound weird, but be careful having too much synapse when you have a lot of creatures that have Instinctive behavior: feed. I've found I more often then not want my hormagaunts to be out of synapse after the charge, on the off chance that they lose combat. I feel hormas + feel no pain (and if i'm running the swarmlord preferred enemy) are a very synergetic unit, but overall do best being able to run away.

Also, I've pretty much given up on breaking open AV14. I played a 6 round tournie with 5 hive guard and 3 zoanthropes and with the prevalence of psychic hoods, runes and the like, zoanthropes were just not reliable. In fact, over 6 games (small sample size i know) i managed to do more damage to a landraider using the hive guard. (hey, weapons destroyed is still a good result!

I ran venomthropes for just under a year with good results, but they really need the right army to shine. My Elites in my previous list were 2x 2 hive guard and 2x venomthropes babysat with a Tyranid Prime. The extension of venomthrope cover save using the prime in the middle was a HUGE bonus as was his ability to catch the odd missile coming his way. In a more monstrous creature based list they are gold but in my current list they don't fit in as well.

My current list incidentally looks like this:
Tervigon as hq, catalyst, toxin sacs
tervigon as troops, catalyst, toxin sacs
3x 15 genestealers with toxin sacs
30x gargoyles with adrenal and toxin sacs
2x hive guard
3x hive guard
7-8 (can't remember) ymgarls.

infiltrate the stealers, FNP the gargoyles and fly them in front of stealers, spawn gaunts for a ring of padding around the tervigons, shoot a few rhinos and assault what was inside turn 2.

It's not rocket science, but it's served me ok so far.

I agree with your analysis for the most part. Zoeys just under-perform in a big way. There are simply too many chances for failure. I often found them more useful to throw into a monstrous creature and just hold it up in combat.

Tyrgons waste tanks of all types, even land raiders (but not monoliths, although bugs need no help wasting Crons). A Trygon on the charge with adrenal glands will chop a land raider to bits, which is why I loved having them in my list. They mulched MSU units that are so prevalent and they were murder on tanks. With 7 reroll attacks, they were very consistent even when needing 6's to hit.

The issue with not having low LD small bugs in synapse though, is that they often lose more models in combat then they kill and they will get run down in combat. That is why I love Steelers so much, they can operate independently and they shred most units they hit. Plus they offer so many deployment options.

I think ultimately it will just take practice.

I'm totally not trolling so don't disregard this. My club and I have come up with a 'Ripper' List consisting of A Flyrant 2 or 3 squads of zoeys in spods (depending on the pts.) 6 ripper troop broods, sky slashers, and some other stuff. I actually have tabled 2 vulkan he'stan lists with it. It's current track record is 8-2 having faced Space wolves, Salamanders, Tau, Sphess marines, and a couple other random ones. Seriously our tactics with rippers are amazing. Spinefists first and foremost. Then Hang out behind the zoeys and tyrant while they take the punishment, all the while shooting and then charge in. With two flyrants (Old Adversary, Hive Commander) they tend to actually kick the crap out of MEQ. 4 twin-linked shots per base and then preferred enemy on the charge kills stuff. If you have the pts. you can also spring for toxin sacs and/or adrenal glands.

Also, I respectfully disagree with you about lictors, deathleaper, and mawlocs. I like deathleaper for the reasons the green text said so no need in repeating that. However, in one Tyranids list I have I run 2 broods of 3 lictors and 2 mawlocs. Lictors ensure your 2+ reserve rolls and if you can bait your opponent to come near your force, which is ideally near the lictors, and get out of their vehicles, then the mawlocs won't scatter within 6" of the lictor and bam!

Did you... Did you just invent a Tyranid Kan Wall?

ImRightBehindYou wrote:I'm totally not trolling so don't disregard this. My club and I have come up with a 'Ripper' List consisting of A Flyrant 2 or 3 squads of zoeys in spods (depending on the pts.) 6 ripper troop broods, sky slashers, and some other stuff. I actually have tabled 2 vulkan he'stan lists with it. It's current track record is 8-2 having faced Space wolves, Salamanders, Tau, Sphess marines, and a couple other random ones. Seriously our tactics with rippers are amazing. Spinefists first and foremost. Then Hang out behind the zoeys and tyrant while they take the punishment, all the while shooting and then charge in. With two flyrants (Old Adversary, Hive Commander) they tend to actually kick the crap out of MEQ. 4 twin-linked shots per base and then preferred enemy on the charge kills stuff. If you have the pts. you can also spring for toxin sacs and/or adrenal glands.

Also, I respectfully disagree with you about lictors, deathleaper, and mawlocs. I like deathleaper for the reasons the green text said so no need in repeating that. However, in one Tyranids list I have I run 2 broods of 3 lictors and 2 mawlocs. Lictors ensure your 2+ reserve rolls and if you can bait your opponent to come near your force, which is ideally near the lictors, and get out of their vehicles, then the mawlocs won't scatter within 6" of the lictor and bam!

Words fail me at the ripper list.

Zero scoring units alone makes the list unplayable as anything but a joke. Point for point devourer guants will thrown out better fire power (TL BS2 S3 AP5 assualt 4 @ 15pts vs BS3, S4 AP- Assault 3 @ 10 points), the rippers have more wounds per point and stealth, but I'd wager vulnerable to blast and the lesser range balances those out. Plus Gaunts are scoring.

Do you understand how the lictor rule even works? The +1 to reserve rule only works if they started that turn on the table, and since they are always in reserve it won't become active until turn 3 at best. That's assuming they pass the 4+ (or 3+ with HC, or 2+ with HC and swarmlord bonus!) to show up. It stacks with the HC and SL bonuses, but by the time it's active you will be getting your reserves on a 2+ at worst anyways, so that's mostly pointless. The no deepstrike scatter, again, will not become active until turn 3 at best and smart Tyranid players start their mawlocs on the board and burrow first turn so they can pop second turn, negating the randomness of the reserve roll, then re-burrow turn 3. (Half a lie, GOOD Tyranid players probably won't use Mawlocs...too random) Therefore the first time at BEST the lictor and Mawloc rules can combine is like turn 4. At that point one of the 2 is probably already dead or you are out of prime targets, so it makes the strategy moot anyways.

If you want bonuses to reserves, get a SL or Tyrant with HC.

Deathleaper wouldn't be so maligned if he weren't an Elite. Pushing out HG, Zoans (marginal due to psychic defense) or Ymgarls is not going to happen in my book.

Every time someone comes up with an "Innovative new way to play Tyranids!" it's almost certainly them misunderstanding how one rule or another works.

@ImRightBehindYou I'd be curious to see the list as mentioned above, without scoring units you're basically never going to play for a win in objective missions, hoping for the draw at best. In 2/3 of the missions that's a big risk.

That being said, I'm curious because I think Rippers haven't been explored. Shame they are in the troops slot and not fast attack... (well skyrippers but that's something else) It helps I have a bunch of bases painted up :(

On the subject of reserve synergy misunderstandings, anyone remember this?

White Dwarf's article introducing the Codex basically wrote:Try having a Lictor Brood arrive near some enemy units, then next turn have a Trygon Deep Strike with pinpoint precision! And after that, have a load of Hormagaunts pour out of the Trygon's arrival point to completely swamp your prey!

Half of this ploy might be workable in Apocalypse, but elsewhere it's a gamble on a par with pointblank Termicide. Not only does Cruddace seemingly not understand how the reserves rules work, neither does WD. Any wonder I didn't renew my subscription?

Admittedly, there are situations where reserve Hormagaunts can be handy; Spearhead (deployment, not expansion - WHY DID YOU MIX AND MATCH THESE TERMS GW ) opens up a massive long edge near to the prey deployment zone, whereby objectives can bait units into standing into the threat radius of arriving units. If they don't, and a Trygon arrives first, there might be an opportunity to swarm out the Gaunts to occupy cover or provide a meatshield.

But building a list around the quarter of games in which reserves arrive in the order you want them to? Come off it.

@Lindsay40k - Games Workshop are completely filled with garbage. It greatly saddens and disturbs me the number of people that are not only convinced of the validity of GW's published tacticas, but actively employ them against properly constructed lists and are disappointed when they do not succeed.

Worst of all, post-game, they do not reconsider the validity of GW's tactics, but find some other cause to pin it on i.e. the dice, or their own mistakes.

But the absolute pits is the belief that 'GW must be right as they wrote the game...'

/rant/

Back on-topic; I really feel that ripper's don't have a place in any Tyranid list. It's not that they're all that bad; it's just that they don't contribute offensively to the list at all and that they aren't scoring...
Wait...
Nope, they're just bad.

Parasite is OK, but the rippers he spawns are really just a bonus.

The only role Rippers have is to be made by a Parasite when she's spearheading a Gargoyle charge. Not only is it extremely cheesy not to bring them along because they're a potential liability, but when it comes to Objective games an extra unit to throw around is very difficult to put below the 'worth it' line.

Though a blob of burrowing spinefists, taken very very rarely against casual opponents, can be fun and help mix things up. Though they need serious revision to overtake Pyrovores in utility.

I did write an alt Malanthrope datasheet that makes Rippers into scoring units. Fluffy and makes them useful, but obviously for friendlies only...

Trygon Deployment? On the board, in reserves? Whens best to do which? Etc.

Carnage43 wrote:

ImRightBehindYou wrote:I'm totally not trolling so don't disregard this. My club and I have come up with a 'Ripper' List consisting of A Flyrant 2 or 3 squads of zoeys in spods (depending on the pts.) 6 ripper troop broods, sky slashers, and some other stuff. I actually have tabled 2 vulkan he'stan lists with it. It's current track record is 8-2 having faced Space wolves, Salamanders, Tau, Sphess marines, and a couple other random ones. Seriously our tactics with rippers are amazing. Spinefists first and foremost. Then Hang out behind the zoeys and tyrant while they take the punishment, all the while shooting and then charge in. With two flyrants (Old Adversary, Hive Commander) they tend to actually kick the crap out of MEQ. 4 twin-linked shots per base and then preferred enemy on the charge kills stuff. If you have the pts. you can also spring for toxin sacs and/or adrenal glands.

Also, I respectfully disagree with you about lictors, deathleaper, and mawlocs. I like deathleaper for the reasons the green text said so no need in repeating that. However, in one Tyranids list I have I run 2 broods of 3 lictors and 2 mawlocs. Lictors ensure your 2+ reserve rolls and if you can bait your opponent to come near your force, which is ideally near the lictors, and get out of their vehicles, then the mawlocs won't scatter within 6" of the lictor and bam!

Words fail me at the ripper list.

Zero scoring units alone makes the list unplayable as anything but a joke. Point for point devourer guants will thrown out better fire power (TL BS2 S3 AP5 assualt 4 @ 15pts vs BS3, S4 AP- Assault 3 @ 10 points), the rippers have more wounds per point and stealth, but I'd wager vulnerable to blast and the lesser range balances those out. Plus Gaunts are scoring.

Do you understand how the lictor rule even works? The +1 to reserve rule only works if they started that turn on the table, and since they are always in reserve it won't become active until turn 3 at best. That's assuming they pass the 4+ (or 3+ with HC, or 2+ with HC and swarmlord bonus!) to show up. It stacks with the HC and SL bonuses, but by the time it's active you will be getting your reserves on a 2+ at worst anyways, so that's mostly pointless. The no deepstrike scatter, again, will not become active until turn 3 at best and smart Tyranid players start their mawlocs on the board and burrow first turn so they can pop second turn, negating the randomness of the reserve roll, then re-burrow turn 3. (Half a lie, GOOD Tyranid players probably won't use Mawlocs...too random) Therefore the first time at BEST the lictor and Mawloc rules can combine is like turn 4. At that point one of the 2 is probably already dead or you are out of prime targets, so it makes the strategy moot anyways.

If you want bonuses to reserves, get a SL or Tyrant with HC.

Deathleaper wouldn't be so maligned if he weren't an Elite. Pushing out HG, Zoans (marginal due to psychic defense) or Ymgarls is not going to happen in my book.

Every time someone comes up with an "Innovative new way to play Tyranids!" it's almost certainly them misunderstanding how one rule or another works.

needlessly rude comments removed. Please don't speak to other Dakka users in this way please. Much obliged.
reds8n



For those of you wondering.... The ripper list is played for fun. I care not for objectives or anything of the sort. If i lose I lose. If I win I win. Big deal. It's rippers.

Parasite when she's spearheading a Gargoyle charge.

Why is the Parasite a girl?

ImRightBehindYou wrote:
<redacted text>

*EDIT* : For those of you wondering.... The ripper list is played for fun. I care not for objectives or anything of the sort. If i lose I lose. If I win I win. Big deal. It's rippers.

Sorry to disappoint you but this thread is named "Tyranid Tactica and Mythbuster Living Tactica [Competitive]". Read the topic of the thread before posting. People like me who want to get into Tyranid army competitively could be confused.

ryanstartalker wrote:

ImRightBehindYou wrote:
<redacted text>

*EDIT* : For those of you wondering.... The ripper list is played for fun. I care not for objectives or anything of the sort. If i lose I lose. If I win I win. Big deal. It's rippers.

Sorry to disappoint you but this thread is named "Tyranid Tactica and Mythbuster Living Tactica [Competitive]". Read the topic of the thread before posting. People like me who want to get into Tyranid army competitively could be confused.

He also asked us for our tactics on units some people might not use. I'm <not going to be snarky>

Ratius wrote:

Parasite when she's spearheading a Gargoyle charge.

Why is the Parasite a girl?

Mine's genderless.....