Perhaps what was implied that what is standard for tau would be more difficult to produce by the Imperium

@ sgt_scruffy: I know, that wasen't directed at you and I apologise if it sounded like it did. That was directed at everyone who actually did that

Well since it seems that the subject has OT now and into certain things like Tau weaponry and such Ill throw in my two bits . I have already told all why I truly dont like the Tau earlier in the Thread. I will admit there weaponry is superior to IoM, the size of there Empire and armed forces however cannot even begin to compare. That said IMO I think the ability to equip there army regardless that there tech is superior or not is fairly easy compared to that of IoM to produce and arm there forces. Also the Tau have fewer worlds and space to defend from enemies making there response to worlds being invaded that much quicker as they also are not reliant on warp travel IIRC(which is unpredictable and unreliable). IoM also probably has more expense to deal with then the Tau Empire, thus making arming there forces with advanced weapons or even research(if it would be allowed) would probably be too much strain on resources. If the Tau counitned to expand they will probably see the,selves dealing with the same problems as the IoM.

Saying something even though it is not said specifically does not make it false. Sorry but your statement is therefore false. I have read many times on the lasguns simplicity. Its called common sense. Lets see..... trillions of guardsmen must be armed hhhhmmmmm idk lets give them all heavy bolters...... NO! thats not how any millitary mind will ever think! EVER! The Tau are smaller, more common sense. They can arm each and every individual soldier better than most if not all of the older races.

Lets take a trip back into history, ive mentioned world war two before but ill do it again. "but xXSir MontyXx this is a fictional game WW2 has nothing to do with it!" maybe not directly but GW im sure incorporated at least a little realism into how thing work. So ok, the Germans incorporated all of these advanced weapons like the Stermgavier (pardon my spelling) into combat mid-way through the war, this weapon was the first assault rifle and started a trend of all the ones we see today. However for its time it was advanced and the German military at this time was beginning to be pushed back and was more concentrated and SMALLER. They could arm these troops with better weaponry than the russians and americans because they had nowhere near as many troops and were desperate. (no the Tau are not desperate).

The United States however mastered MASS PRODUCTION pumping out 4 jeeps every hour of every day until the wars finish, and battleships were made in 2 weeks instead of 14 months. No one can ever tell me that mass production doesn't conquer advanced weapons when its been in every history book ever that mass production comes on top. IT IS A NUMBERS GAME, the Tau do not have the type of mass production the imperium does because they have a much much much smaller army, they dont need it. If they did incorporate such a system they would have crap guns anchoring down their ships!

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Hormogaunts develop immunity to pulse weapons - kroot eat them.
Gaunts develop methods to eat kroot - hard fought fight.
Gaunts become perfectly developed to eat kroot - kroot lose.
Gaunts emerge from woods only to find that they are vulnerable to pulse weapons.

Only that Tyranids and Kroot won't eat each other due to biochemical incompatibility (both organisms would try to fight each other on the molecular level trying to extract genes from each other).

Not that I disagree with any sentiment here...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:and battleships were made in 2 weeks instead of 14 months.

but a slight exaggeration I think.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:Not that I disagree with any sentiment here...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:and battleships were made in 2 weeks instead of 14 months.

but a slight exaggeration I think.

Cheers

Andrew

Actually no, its not. I watch the military channel quite a bit.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Saying something even though it is not said specifically does not make it false. Sorry but your statement is therefore false. I have read many times on the lasguns simplicity. Its called common sense. Lets see..... trillions of guardsmen must be armed hhhhmmmmm idk lets give them all heavy bolters...... NO! thats not how any millitary mind will ever think! EVER! The Tau are smaller, more common sense. They can arm each and every individual soldier better than most if not all of the older races.

Lets take a trip back into history, ive mentioned world war two before but ill do it again. "but xXSir MontyXx this is a fictional game WW2 has nothing to do with it!" maybe not directly but GW im sure incorporated at least a little realism into how thing work. So ok, the Germans incorporated all of these advanced weapons like the Stermgavier (pardon my spelling) into combat mid-way through the war, this weapon was the first assault rifle and started a trend of all the ones we see today. However for its time it was advanced and the German military at this time was beginning to be pushed back and was more concentrated and SMALLER. They could arm these troops with better weaponry than the russians and americans because they had nowhere near as many troops and were desperate. (no the Tau are not desperate).

The United States however mastered MASS PRODUCTION pumping out 4 jeeps every hour of every day until the wars finish, and battleships were made in 2 weeks instead of 14 months. No one can ever tell me that mass production doesn't conquer advanced weapons when its been in every history book ever that mass production comes on top. IT IS A NUMBERS GAME, the Tau do not have the type of mass production the imperium does because they have a much much much smaller army, they dont need it. If they did incorporate such a system they would have crap guns anchoring down their ships!

Your analogy fails as the StG44 was NOT standard equipment for any general infantry, it was rare and only issued to elite troops or on an ad-hoc basis. There are millions upon millions of fire warriors, and at the very least they will all be armed with a pulse rifle and carapace armor; if the Tau weren't capable of mass production of either of this pieces in a sufficient manner, they wouldn't be standard

I understand this, the STG44 was more like the plasma rifle most likely. The Germans as a whole though are more like the Tau is my meaning. The STG only appeared near the end of the war as an act of desperation and decrease in military size.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

AndrewC wrote:Not that I disagree with any sentiment here...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:and battleships were made in 2 weeks instead of 14 months.

but a slight exaggeration I think.

Cheers

Andrew

Actually no, its not. I watch the military channel quite a bit.

Name a battleship that was completed in two weeks.

Does a canoe with a machine gun count?

Thank you for that. Sigged!

Andrew

Bro if if you wanna call up the military channel and track down that documentary be my guest. Im just telling you what they said on TV. Im not saying they weren't wrong, but i believe they don't have a reason to lie. Yes, I have a reason but then again this is also a fictional universe and I dont think I need to lie


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its hard to wrap your head around that kind of speed for building something like that, but thats also why I remembered it to mention it in this thread

I think that you may have misheard what was said on the program.

Raise, refloat and refurbish a sunken battleship at Pearl Harbour, 2 weeks okay.

Bulid a new battleship in 2 weeks. Not possible.

Cheers

Andrew

Well ANYWAYS we must get back on topic less this thread diverge to much. Im not just saying this to avoid defeat, I am fully willing to agree that I misheard the program.

Although now is that awkward moment when we forgot about our argument about the Tau. (atleast I did, gotta glance back)

But really im really not trying to look like an hole. I just think its common sense if you have two forces (the Iom, and the Tau) one is unimaginably huge and one is not even close to that size the bigger ones tech is going to be lower per person and each soldier more expendable.

The OP discussed the idea that Tau technology is not better then that of the Imperiums and the Tau Empires ability to produce their weapons is a direct reflection of their technology so this is not off topic.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Saying something even though it is not said specifically does not make it false. Sorry but your statement is therefore false.

Do you even read what has actually been written? Before you go on spouting about common sense you should use some yourself. A statement that is made as if it where fact when it has no cannonised support is in fact a false statement, that is common sense. If you where to walk into a court room as a lawyer and make a statement in your clients defence and that statement has absolutly no support or indeed has a strong amount of evidence pointing against it then that statement is false.

I have read many times on the lasguns simplicity. Its called common sense.

As have I. But as I have said earlier the capabilities of the IoM to produce their own technology have no effect on the Tau Empires ability to do the same. Are the Taus production numbers miraculously linked to the IoMs production numbers? no, they aren't. For all you or any one of us know a Pulse Rifle could be just as easy for the Tau to produce as a Lasgun.

However with that being said, the fluff supports that the Tau have absolutly no issue producing their technology (as it has been suggested) in that 1 they are constantly inventing new technologies and 2 they even have the ability to improve the technology of their allies. Now if a faction in the 40k universe had issues producing their own technology would common sense say that they would spend their time inventing new tech or improving the tech of others? no, it says that they would be seeking a way to improve their production capabilities.

Ouch have a common sense soft spot do we? Look, I have multiple others on this very thread that have said almost exactly what I have said about production capability. It is just realistic, im sorry I haven't researched the stuff myself I have been in and out of a hospital waiting room for my fiance who is recovering from septic shock and has to have her arms/legs amputated due to this. Im not trying to create a sop story, just explaining why my points may be..... off sometimes. I dont have the time to look up everything that makes sense to me. This site has done wonders however on keeping my mind off the situation.

What I am trying to say, is realism even in 40k would dictate that if you have trillions of souls to arm you need trillions of guns. They cant be expensive and they cannot be complex or hard to maintain. Hence; the lasgun is born. I say the Taus weaponry may be a little more complicated and harder to manufacture because they are not as spread thin or as huge as the IoM. Im not even going to say I have proof of this, this is just something that makes sense. No quotes or cites, just common sense. (dont rip my head off for using the term again)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
im not even seeing this as a shot at the Tau. Im saying they are more advanced than the IoM per soldier. What is bad about that?

I think Sir Monty was referring to the liberty ships of WW2 which were built in staggering numbers. The fastest every built was the Robert E. Peary which was launched 4 days 15 1/2 hours after it's keel was laid down. This was a publicity stunt and not repeated. The average time taken for a liberty ship was 42 days.

Wikipedia so salt and all that...

The Tau are alot like the United States during The Revolution. Britain has more pressing problems (mainland Europe) and the colonies are too isolated to divert significant enough resources to quell the threat. Could the IoM crush the Tau? Sure - that's not the point. Can they crush the Tau without being gutted by a dozen other threats? That's the question.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I think Sir Monty was referring to the liberty ships of WW2 which were built in staggering numbers. The fastest every built was the Robert E. Peary which was launched 4 days 15 1/2 hours after it's keel was laid down. This was a publicity stunt and not repeated. The average time taken for a liberty ship was 42 days.

Wikipedia so salt and all that...

The Tau are alot like the United States during The Revolution. Britain has more pressing problems (mainland Europe) and the colonies are too isolated to divert significant enough resources to quell the threat. Could the IoM crush the Tau? Sure - that's not the point. Can they crush the Tau without being gutted by a dozen other threats? That's the question.

I was just about to say that Sgt. Scruffy. I was just on vacation in San Fran and they have a liberty ship you can tour there and basically the big deal about the Liberty Ship is it can be built in 2 weeks. They were building them faster than the Germans could sink them and was a major contributer to the American Victory.

yes that maybe it, I dont remember the speceifics on what the narrator said. I think he may have just said ships....... but I digress.

That is a perfect example! the revolution! There are some differences obviously, it took the brits 3 weeks to get across the atlantic? I could be wrong. Yes, I watched America the story of us. The narrator of that said that the rebels used a modified german hunting musket far superior to the Brits muskets. The brits were more fancy though, to go with their uniforms and what not. The german version was kinda rugged looking but easy to produce. Good 'ol American inginuity there I say. (using stuff from other countries)

Or: "Russian with US and others help" victory, to be slightly more accurate and OT....

While a pulse weapon may be more complicated, it doesnt mean it is harder to produce.

It would be harder for the IoM to produce than a lasgun; they are not as advanced in this area.

The prevalence of both as standard infantry weapons can only lead you to the conclusion that both are of equal difficulty to produce *for the society in question*

I may be wrong but I believe the brit version was harder to produce simply for the fact that they wanted quality over functionality and productibility. Not to mention the time to get the weapons and ammo over the atlantic. The american developed theirs right on the battlefield

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or: "Russian with US and others help" victory, to be slightly more accurate and OT....

While a pulse weapon may be more complicated, it doesnt mean it is harder to produce.

It would be harder for the IoM to produce than a lasgun; they are not as advanced in this area.

The prevalence of both as standard infantry weapons can only lead you to the conclusion that both are of equal difficulty to produce *for the society in question*

I'm not American I'm fully aware of the sacrifices of other nations my point is:

America was almost making entire warships faster than Germany could make torpedoes. If That isn't an analogy for the Imperium I don't know what is.

The IoM can train and equip an entire Guardsman for the same price and manhours as one pulse rifle. From their POV don't need no fancy guns when you can just send unlimited manpower at them.

I agree with anyone who thinks we BOTH need proof to decide if the Tau tech is harder to produce. I will admit if im wrong but I cannot produce these results and i apologize for that. I simply do not have the time. Please if anyone on my side of the argument can find something, it would be greatly appreciated. All I am basing my argument on at present is assumptions and history

I want this thread to be logical and everyone to get along after the fact haha.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Nids will never become immune to las guns hmm? could that be because they aren't powerfull enough for the nids to need to be immune. They just throw more and more hordes at the guard to run down their ammo but the Hive Mind recognises the superiority of Tau weapons and so has to adapt its hordes to be able to survive long enough to destroy the Tau before the superior weapons of the Tau wipe out the Tyranids leader beasts alot easier then lasguns could. Oh and Tau have long range weapons as well

Seems were upset aren't we?
I felt like posting all these weapons greatly outclassing Tau weapons when it comes to range but somehow I'll save our time ( for now ) and point you down to the next post below:

Retribution wrote:
True, the guard has impressive amounts of indirect fire artillery, but that doesn't really help when the Tau abhor holding a static line. And when you want to talk about direct fire weaponry, well...there's this little dandy called the railgun

See?
Now, he mistakes artillery for unable to hit mobile targets, where I ( as personally well informed about artillery since I did serve there...) may inform you they
can barrage enough space at once to deny you any escape route. Yes if you stay where you are they may miss twice but the third shot will find you...
So generally anyone digging in in a fortress is a nice target for relentless shelling 24/h a day. And codex Tau empire said Tau fortified planets.
There you go. Static line

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

The IoM can train and equip an entire Guardsman for the same price and manhours as one pulse rifle. From their POV don't need no fancy guns when you can just send unlimited manpower at them.

Exactly.


the IG has the advantage to have fluff.:
- the equipment of a Guardsmen is listed in the "munitorum manual",
- the recrutement is partially listed in the BRB ( map of major fortresses and recrutement )
- the IG is the largest military organization of this Galaxy ( BRB/codex IG )
- the lasgun is said to be the weapon of choice as its easy to produce, maintain and standardize. ( ImperialInfantrymansUpliftingPrimer or codex IG

the Tau get:
- wargear of a firewarrior ( codex T/empire )
- we now not every Tau is a firewarrior
- we know they can equip any firewarrior they have

All we have is both may equip any recruted soldier they have. Until we find a source for the size of the IG / fire caste, we may never agree on the demand for weapons of both factions. Just remember GW had this " not even the Administratum knows how many guardsmen are there" bit of fluff somewhere....

The point that shall stand is:
- providing millions of soldiers on millions of worlds may generate a higher demand on material and production capacity than providing a few dozen sept worlds military.
- cost per weapon cannot be compared without a source for Tau's cost per weapons in a convertible currency.

Still IG can stand on their "our gun is cheap enough to arm half of the Galaxy with" argument.

Wow.

I love how people automatically assume someone is upset or biting their heads off because someone else is arguing a point. I wasen't aware that so many members of Dakka have such thin skin.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or: "Russian with US and others help" victory, to be slightly more accurate and OT....

While a pulse weapon may be more complicated, it doesnt mean it is harder to produce.

It would be harder for the IoM to produce than a lasgun; they are not as advanced in this area.

The prevalence of both as standard infantry weapons can only lead you to the conclusion that both are of equal difficulty to produce *for the society in question*

The IoM can train and equip an entire Guardsman for the same price and manhours as one pulse rifle.

That's a rather specific comparison, i doubt a pulse rifle is that difficult or costly to produce

@ 1hadhq: I agree that the demand for Guardsmen equipment would be exponentially higher than the Tau, but the empire does equip "millions and millions" of firewarriors with standard equipment consisting of carapace armor and pulse weapons; obviously their production capacity must be rather high

the point is that it clearly ISNT that difficult or costly for the TAU to produce as compared to the IoM producing the same equipment.

"Cost" is relative, entirely so. Yes, it would take the IoM more effort / cost / etc to equip FW-levels. However it may take the Tau empire comparatively the SAME amount of effort to equip a FW as the IoM do a trooper.

The levels of absolute work are different, but that doesnt mean it is harder for Tau than IoM. The fact they are standard issue weapons for both armies indicate the relative levels of effort are the same.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Wow.

I love how people automatically assume someone is upset or biting their heads off because someone else is arguing a point. I wasen't aware that so many members of Dakka have such thin skin.

Well my "dont bite my head off" comment was sarcasm, not my "thin skin". I love how people assume someone is upset or has hurt feelings for arguing their point. I wasnt aware that so many members of dakka think they are that sharp tongued.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Wow.

I love how people automatically assume someone is upset or biting their heads off because someone else is arguing a point. I wasn't aware that so many members of Dakka have such thin skin.

What else did you want to imply with your post?
May I also start posting any point I am trying to make in a winding sentence over the whole page so you get more to read if you please but maybe not as some structure would help to clearly transport your objective view based on facts and always perfectly written and transporting emotions even when hitting a keyboard to
contribute on the interwebz?

Go figure that out...automatically.... and use as many assumptions as possible

Retribution wrote:

@ 1hadhq: I agree that the demand for Guardsmen equipment would be exponentially higher than the Tau, but the empire does equip "millions and millions" of firewarriors with standard equipment consisting of carapace armor and pulse weapons; obviously their production capacity must be rather high

I know where to find numbers for IG, but where are these "millions of millions of firewarriors" to be found in fluff?

hey, hey. Its ok if he doesnt have fluff proof and demands it from us! whats the saying......... forfiet what you preach?

Fluff? The current Tau codex mentions that the Tau have advanced (by IoM standards) food production and industrial manufacturing technology....

You guys are both sad. Don’t you both hate tau?
Bond over your mutual hatred instead of with each other.

Of course if I’m wrong, keep fighting. It’s entertaining.

"As his words echoed into silence, a million Fire Warriors listening outside the council dome went down on bended knee" - Codex Tau

Now, this was essentially a political rally for Aun'va; as i highly doubt the entire empires military would concentrate on a single planet it's merely common sense to assume there are at least a few million more military personnel scattered around the empire, especially on major Sept worlds

@ Retribution:
You are right they should have 1 million + X of them.

Was attending mandatory and was every firewarrior there?
Unlikely, so maybe 10% were listening to the space pope.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Generally, the IG demands new regiments to be equipped with lasguns, as those are standardized and more importantly the supply of ammo is also based upon
compatibility of weapons. The munitorum has enough power to rule on this standardization.

If a comparision has to be made, why not choose the stormtrooper instead of the basic guardsman?
S/He got better armor, a different and more expensive gun, more training and comes in limited numbers.

Edited: twice sorry didn't see the post above.

That quote is from Codex Tau, page 42

agnosto wrote:Fluff? The current Tau codex mentions that the Tau have advanced (by IoM standards) food production and industrial manufacturing technology....

Well there you go, some fluff! Thankyou, I just dont like being targeted for not presenting fluff when that very fluff-absent argument is on both sides.

You guys are both sad. Don’t you both hate tau?
Bond over your mutual hatred instead of with each other.

Of course if I’m wrong, keep fighting. It’s entertaining.

What is up with all the Tau groupies making personal jabs??? Its 40k bro! dont taze me bro! dont taze me! chiillax. Im sorry for insulting your army if you want to start a thread about why you dislike 'nids be my guest.

Also I NEVER mentioned my "hate" of Tau. I do not hate them. They are an army in a game. Its some guys job to write their story why hate it? I just question how some of it works. I even question Tyranid stuff. Also, who are you talking about (probably a dumb question) be more specific

Mustela wrote:I don't like Tau because they have a 40K army, and they are so tiny, they are pointless from the bigger picture - So why are they even an army? Especially when there are much cooler, much more relevant, things that GW could make (CODEX: Mechanicus?).

Oh yeah, and all my friends play them.

+Ultramr is WAAAAAYYYYY bigger than the Tau empire on the map in the rulebook.
+They can't last forever - no psykers means communications issues
+No warp drives - that'll give any significant expansion a real roadblock
+If they recruit psykers from other races, they just got themselves a free daemon portal.

I don't hate Tau, but I agree a codex for the mechanium would be better.

Nids are cool, but it seems like you are fighting about the productive power of tau compared to IoM. This is dumb. IoM obivusly more productive power than tau. Even if there is millions of tau, their is billions of guards. Ralitive to size, tau is better.

They both have basic weapons that they can mass produce. The taus are stronger but require ammo, were as the lasgun doent. Everybody konws how they can be charged on a fire. This does dammage the gun however.


If im wrong correct me but this seems quite clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lokirfellheart wrote:

Mustela wrote:I don't like Tau because they have a 40K army, and they are so tiny, they are pointless from the bigger picture - So why are they even an army? Especially when there are much cooler, much more relevant, things that GW could make (CODEX: Mechanicus?).

Oh yeah, and all my friends play them.

+Ultramr is WAAAAAYYYYY bigger than the Tau empire on the map in the rulebook.
+They can't last forever - no psykers means communications issues
+No warp drives - that'll give any significant expansion a real roadblock
+If they recruit psykers from other races, they just got themselves a free daemon portal.

I don't hate Tau, but I agree a codex for the mechanium would be better.

I think its good. we have waaaay to meny IoM dexs already

Ledabot wrote:Nids are cool, but it seems like you are fighting about the productive power of tau compared to IoM. This is dumb. IoM obivusly more productive power than tau. Even if there is millions of tau, their is billions of guards. Ralitive to size, tau is better.

They both have basic weapons that they can mass produce. The taus are stronger but require ammo, were as the lasgun doent. Everybody konws how they can be charged on a fire. This does dammage the gun however.


If im wrong correct me but this seems quite clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lokirfellheart wrote:

Mustela wrote:I don't like Tau because they have a 40K army, and they are so tiny, they are pointless from the bigger picture - So why are they even an army? Especially when there are much cooler, much more relevant, things that GW could make (CODEX: Mechanicus?).

Oh yeah, and all my friends play them.

+Ultramr is WAAAAAYYYYY bigger than the Tau empire on the map in the rulebook.
+They can't last forever - no psykers means communications issues
+No warp drives - that'll give any significant expansion a real roadblock
+If they recruit psykers from other races, they just got themselves a free daemon portal.

I don't hate Tau, but I agree a codex for the mechanium would be better.

I think its good. we have waaaay to meny IoM dexs already

Why on earth are you debating against me? What you just said is what ive been saying the ENTIRE time! you hit the nail on the head! Warboss just doesnt want to accept the the Taus weapons may be a bit harder to mass produce at the rate the IoM does! OMG thankyou ledabot!

munitorum manual page 41 / ammo for lasguns.

XI failure to maintain adequate supplies of ammunition.
Each soldier shall carry about his person, or have stowed in his billet, enough ammunition to fire not less than 500 shots from his primary lasgun.
Failure to maintain this level of firepower will result in flogging ( not less than 30 lashes ) Art.8455/22m.

Ammo for 500 shots per guardsmen. Mags are neccessary, thus resupply is happening.

XII Running out of ammo during a combat situation
any soldier who finds himself unable to prosecute the foe with ballistic, laser or plasma weapons shall,
upon return to base, be incarcareted for not less of sixty days. He shall then be found guilty of maintain adequate supplies of ammunition ( see above ) Art. 4421/34p.

depleting any weapon without resupply . If youre able to run out of ammo, ammo must be limited.

MM / page 60-61 lasgun :
.....
A lasgun is easy to manufacture and maintain, and very reliable even under the toughest battlefield conditions.
......
The lasgun is powered by rechargable powerpacks, but carries a residual supply and can be rechargesd using its own solar converters.
When in base, there will be designated power chargers, which may be used to recharge each guardsmens power packs and its his responsibility to ensure that he keeps a full load as possible at all times.
...
Used conservatively, a laser powerpack will last for many shots ( 150 ) and can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing its thermal cells
to heat or light.

easy to produce, maintain. Ammo may 'regenerate'.


Power packs can be swapped, and having just 150 shots may lead to more than 1 pack used in battle.

There's different types though. Some only last 50 or 40. I think Kriegers might even be 30 or less.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:hey, hey. Its ok if he doesnt have fluff proof and demands it from us! whats the saying......... forfiet what you preach?

I would suggest getting your eyes checked beings as I've actually provided that fluff (scrolling up and maybe actually reading what's been written would help you to find it) that supports that the Tau have no problem producing their technology as have others in this thread. The only differance is that I don't make a claim that it is fact when no such answer has been given by GW. Instead I provide the fluff that supports the most likely answer. Oh and if the way I write is an issue I'll send you a dictionary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the mean time the 2 of you will be ignored as I really coulden't care less about 2 posters who aren't even going have a real discussion without resorting to pity me statements followed by immature comments because they don't like when their "non supported facts" are proven wrong.

Of course the Tau have no problem producing their technology! They don't need to make weapons for 1.6 x 1010+ warriors!


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Of course the Tau have no problem producing their technology! They don't need to make weapons for 1.6 x 1010+ warriors!

Hey Klawz what's up with the double post?

Now don't get me wrong, I respect the Tau, but I simply can't take their fluff seriously. A bunch of savages become the dominant technological power in the galaxy (Eldar and Necrons excluded) within 6000 years? We humans took 10,000+ to get to the state we are at now.

Mustela wrote:I don't like Tau because they have a 40K army, and they are so tiny, they are pointless from the bigger picture - So why are they even an army? Especially when there are much cooler, much more relevant, things that GW could make (CODEX: Mechanicus?).

because back in 3rd Ed, gundam and other mech-suit stuff was really popular, and GW in their wisdom decided to capitalize on the fad.

I like giant robot suits, and I got giant robot suits. I see no problem with their choice to capitalize on the fad.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:hey, hey. Its ok if he doesnt have fluff proof and demands it from us! whats the saying......... forfiet what you preach?

I would suggest getting your eyes checked beings as I've actually provided that fluff (scrolling up and maybe actually reading what's been written would help you to find it) that supports that the Tau have no problem producing their technology as have others in this thread. The only differance is that I don't make a claim that it is fact when no such answer has been given by GW. Instead I provide the fluff that supports the most likely answer. Oh and if the way I write is an issue I'll send you a dictionary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the mean time the 2 of you will be ignored as I really coulden't care less about 2 posters who aren't even going have a real discussion without resorting to pity me statements followed by immature comments because they don't like when their "non supported facts" are proven wrong.

No dont! Dont ignore me! I strive for your attention! Plz if it keeps you around I scrolled back up the thread and you never proved anything wrong! All I saw were people that agreed with the fact that the IoM was huge and had easier to produce weapons.

Sucks how you cant produce proof from a thread that your already in huh?

Moving topic ot 40K general discussions.

It has gone completely off the official fluff.

I don't think there is much fluff to go on.

But merely stating, where is your proof?, is not going to disprove anything. The only way to disprove it completely is to provide a counter-arguement that directly contradicts said statement.

To be honest, I haven't seen much fluff that you've posted Warboss, perhaps maybe two or three points, unless i'm getting my threads mixed up, but all I that I can see are not difinitively disproving any statements.

but alas, such is the way of fluff.

Exactly, the argument is like... 5 to 2 and the only leg he can stand on is no proof. Even though there are multiple times where people on my side of the argument have just not me.

However I apologized about that before. I have some extra time and I am looking now. I read a post somewhere on dakka last week that said Tau people pull tis fluff thing alot even though they have been beat in every other area.

I blew it off as stereo typical, but warboss you seem to have the skill down to a button.

There's definitely something wrong with the tau.

In fluff they were clever discovering gun powder and low level tech quickly and were fighting amongst themselves, then ONE DAY the Ethereal’s turned up.

They were not the same as normal tau they had the diamond shaped organ on their head.

All the tau they spoke with almost immediately submitted to their authority.

The Ethereals took power with no fighting and brought peace, they then banned interbreeding between the castes (Air Earth Water and Fire).

In the Xenology book they dissected a tau Ethereal and found different organs at accelerated development along with other organs that were fairly primitive

"Perambulatory limbs. Tertiary joint analogous to Terran artiodactyls: suggests evolution from-clove-hoofed ruminate. Extreme vulnerability of padded elements incongruous with general robustness of subject. (Spec: unusual periods of accelerated racial development have not advanced all organs at uniform rate).

GENERAL OBSERVATION
Subject's anatomy suggests a highly developed species of analogous physical durability to mankind. Physical structure, general organic processes and reproductive anatomy all show remarkable similarities. Is this racial parallelism purely coincidental?"

Anyway my theory is, the Tau civilisation was about to destroy itself when someone stepped in, interfered with some members Tau's physiology, creating the Ethereal.

The Diamond on the head of the Ethereal releases pheromones that force the Tau to follow the Ethereal.

Remember Farsight only became independent after the death of the commanding Ethereal

I think the Tau advanced so quickly because of the Ethereal’s involvement.

They’ve done some shady things too. The Vespid only joined the Tau empire after the Ethereals became involved. They seemed resistant until the leaders were given special head gear... Hmmmm

Wow.. First of all.. 12 pages of Tau "hate"? lol!


Now, We can all agree, that IoM has bigger industrial and manufacture potential.
I personally think that all the FW gun vs Guard gun debate shows that (at least in this field) Tau has the technological advantage. I'm sorry, but you can't blame the number of troops. Humans have x times more people to arm, but also have x times the factories, worlds etc..

5 people with guns have technological advantage over 1 000 000 people with pointy sticks, no matter how you look at it.

Fire warrior is a typical, everyday, standard army guy for Tau, don't bring elite guys in the picture.


And really? 6k vs 10k+ years? They advanced less than 2x faster, and that's impossible? So Eldar can't be 2x more agile, Orks 2x as ferocious, Chaos 2x tainted and/or crazy? SM 2x tough?
That's where all the hate (can replace with other milder adjective) comes from? Wow, just wow..

The pulse rifle is more advance but it says on the lexicanum the lasgun is extremely potent in numbers, with the IG have.

I think we can all agree that is an excellent reason to hate the Tau.

What can I say. Haters gonna hate, players gonna play.

IvanTih wrote:. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

As is most of the content of 40K

it is a fictional game about aliens and robots.

Deep breathing might help...

Let's recap as to why Tau supposedly have trouble producing their tech.

Fluff based reasons saying the Tau don't have problems producing their technology.

1. The Tau are constantly creating new technologies. If a race had trouble producing what they already had then they woulden't spend time making new things they would look for ways to improve their production capabilities.

2. The Tau are improving the technologies of their allied races. If a race had trouble producing what they already had then they woulden't spend time improving the technology of their allies they would look for ways to improve their production capabilities.

3. Most units in the Tau Empire have multiple weapon options, if the Tau had limited production capabilities they would not be able to provide multiple weapon choices to their units based on what's needed for the situation.

4. The Tau may not have a population as large as the IoM but they are a faction that inhabits multiple planets. That alone suggests at least a significant population which would need to be supplied with the various technologies needed for their roles. The Tau would not have been able to expand to their present status if their production capabilities had not advanced with them.

Fluff based reason as to why the Tau have limited abilities to produce their technology

1. Lasguns are cheap

That doesn't seem to make sense.

At first glance, it looks as though there is every reason why Tau can improve their tech and no reason why they can't. Supported by fluff.

Am I missing some crucial point? I have taken drink tonight.

Kilkrazy wrote:At first glance, it looks as though there is every reason why Tau can improve their tech and no reason why they can't. Supported by fluff.

I may have ingested something alcaholic myself beings as I could have sworn I'd posted these reasons before (maybe it's just to hard for some people to read) and that to me it seems perfectly logical that given the fluff based reasons posted in this thread the Tau have absolutly no problem producing their tech.

I don't know maybe "Lasguns are cheap" is some kind of galactic power phrase that trumps absolutly everything.

No of course they can improve tech, who cant? (IoM cuz of all their regulations and superstitions)

I have searched and I found no evidence of the Tau having TROUBLE producing their tech. This is something I never said however. Atleast I dont remember it. I said the IoM can produce their tech faster cuz its simple. This was found BY ME on multiple occasions ESPECIALLY about the lasgun.

The important thing isn't simplicity, it is production capability.

Silicon chips are some of the most complex devices ever produced, yet a competent factory can stamp them out so fast that they aren't worth picking up if you drop them down a crack in the floor.

what the heck are we even talking about? Seems like everyone is just rigorously agreeing with each other...

I agree with myself the most, I'll have you know.

agnosto wrote:I agree with myself the most, I'll have you know.

Well I can't argue with that.

I know who I don’t agree with. Anything that looks like pollinating flower.

agnosto wrote:I agree with myself the most, I'll have you know.

Nuh uh!
Now let's have a 12 page argument over that, now.

On-topic: We never said Tau has difficulty producing tech. We just said that their technology isn't feasible to produce for 16,000,000,000,000,000 guardsmen.

in the Tau codex, a letter from one of those crazy admech dudes from Mars to the conclave of crazy admech dudes on Mars (page 20) goes on about the advanced manufacturing technologies of the Tau and how it should be stamped out (construction and agricultural in particular) because it doesn't pay enough homage to the machine god or some nonsense. So if the crazy dudes on mars are impressed with their manufacturing capabilities and say that they're better than IoM....maybe they could make enough flashlights for a bazillion guardsmen.

the techs good enough, they just dont have millions of planets to make pusle rifles for a bizzlion guards.

agnosto wrote:in the Tau codex, a letter from one of those crazy admech dudes from Mars to the conclave of crazy admech dudes on Mars (page 20) goes on about the advanced manufacturing technologies of the Tau and how it should be stamped out (construction and agricultural in particular) because it doesn't pay enough homage to the machine god or some nonsense. So if the crazy dudes on mars are impressed with their manufacturing capabilities and say that they're better than IoM....maybe they could make enough flashlights for a bazillion guardsmen.

Why not quote it?
Maybe its not excatly as you say and the Ad mech dude insisted to get rid of the Tech because it is an affront versus the omnissiah?
So just to throw in the 'facts'.
-the ad mech representative never said "better".
-the ad mech representative never said anything about production capabilities

Again, no point good sir.

Yeah, an empire that encompases over 300 light years of space and numerous alien populations of varying capabilities and technology (codex, page 6) would be incapable of advanced manufacture on a large scale.

Seriously, I'll just stand by what I said earlier. Haters gonna hate. You've made up your mind and we could throw cannon at you all day and it wouldn't change anything; that's cool, it's better if you don't like every army in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

agnosto wrote:in the Tau codex, a letter from one of those crazy admech dudes from Mars to the conclave of crazy admech dudes on Mars (page 20) goes on about the advanced manufacturing technologies of the Tau and how it should be stamped out (construction and agricultural in particular) because it doesn't pay enough homage to the machine god or some nonsense. So if the crazy dudes on mars are impressed with their manufacturing capabilities and say that they're better than IoM....maybe they could make enough flashlights for a bazillion guardsmen.

Why not quote it?
Maybe its not excatly as you say and the Ad mech dude insisted to get rid of the Tech because it is an affront versus the omnissiah?
So just to throw in the 'facts'.
-the ad mech representative never said "better".
-the ad mech representative never said anything about production capabilities

Again, no point good sir.

Geez, I'm not about to type out the whole page nor is it my job to prove to you that it's actually in there. Don't believe me, get a codex and look at the page I referenced.

"The heresy of these aliens reaches it's zenith when one looks at their technology. While admittedly, its performance can match and occasionally exceed Imperial manufacture, it displays none of the proper obeisances to the holy spirit of the Mahine God."

agnosto wrote:Yeah, an empire that encompases over 300 light years of space and numerous alien populations of varying capabilities and technology (codex, page 6) would be incapable of advanced manufacture on a large scale.

If you care to post the whole context, its 8 Sept worlds.
Sorry but 8 major holds aren't that impressive.
The BRB of 5th ed expands this to:

- 8 major Sept
- 9 minor sept.
- 3 kroot worlds
- 4 farsight enclaves

Still not really big.

agnosto wrote:
Seriously, I'll just stand by what I said earlier. Haters gonna hate. You've made up your mind and we could throw cannon at you all day and it wouldn't change anything; that's cool, it's better if you don't like every army in the game.

Back to the all encompassing 'hater' argument? Its as convincing as 'but we have railgunz'.
Seriously, either tell the whole story or be prepared to have someone point at the missing parts.

FWIW, I'm still waiting to see cannons thrown. Maybe post a vid?

agnosto wrote:
Geez, I'm not about to type out the whole page nor is it my job to prove to you that it's actually in there. Don't believe me, get a codex and look at the page I referenced.

"The heresy of these aliens reaches it's zenith when one looks at their technology. While admittedly, its performance can match and occasionally exceed Imperial manufacture, it displays none of the proper obeisances to the holy spirit of the Machine God."

As I own every codex, I may prefer to see a reference and nobody expected whole pages quoted.
But look, it was not so much work to post the line youre talking about, wasn't it?

Just curious but if all is being said is that the Tau Empire coulden't produce enough of there tech to supply it to IG. What exactly is the point in saying that? What could that possibly have to do with the discussion beings as the Tau aren't out to supply their enemy.

If what is being said is in referance to those masses of IG one day being members of the Tau Empire it still dosen't apply because the Tau still woulden't make pulse rifles for the guardsmen. They would allow them to continue using their own tech with upgrades just like they do gue'vesa.

Directly to OP, ignoring other conversations in this massive thread
-You are held up on your paradigm which limits your thinking. You in no way can believe the tau and their progress. Why not? Because it is beyond your believed possibilities, the laws you have set for your own universe, and the Tau are beyond that. It is science fiction, anything is possible. Anything claimed to be 'impossible' is just a limitation of a paradigm. Things that have become so excepted, they become law. It is entirely possible that Tau have advanced that quickly as they aren't human. You are thinking from a human standpoint. Yes, humans apparently couldn't ever evolve that fast. However, you don't know everything about the tau. Maybe their conditions where more harsh and their genetics more easily mutable. Thus, allowing for quicker evolution and expansion. Just because humans aren't like that, doesn't mean tau can't be like that either.

Mewiththeface wrote:Directly to OP, ignoring other conversations in this massive thread
-You are held up on your paradigm which limits your thinking. You in no way can believe the tau and their progress. Why not? Because it is beyond your believed possibilities, the laws you have set for your own universe, and the Tau are beyond that. It is science fiction, anything is possible. Anything claimed to be 'impossible' is just a limitation of a paradigm. Things that have become so excepted, they become law. It is entirely possible that Tau have advanced that quickly as they aren't human. You are thinking from a human standpoint. Yes, humans apparently couldn't ever evolve that fast. However, you don't know everything about the tau. Maybe their conditions where more harsh and their genetics more easily mutable. Thus, allowing for quicker evolution and expansion. Just because humans aren't like that, doesn't mean tau can't be like that either.

Dam straight

^3 posts above.

The point of production capability. The IG is completly different from Tau.

IG gets troops as a tithe of planetary governments. Tau may have a centralized organisation to recrut and train.
Where one has to keep standards low enough to be met by millions of worlds ( from stoneage to modern ), the other has only some worlds to care for
and can focus on best equipment. Thus Tau are capable to support their limited numbers of troops in a dense cluster of worlds.
The IoM is spread across the Galaxy. Organization, communication and transport are important factors.
Tau would face the same problems. They just benefit from beeing a small efficent empire. The IoM has to deal with its own size, thus cannot be as effective
as smaller empires. The stretch to the military defending borders and ruling a vast empire are burdening the IoM as such things do the last 40k years to any
Imperium of noticable size.

Rest assured, the IoM will never join the Tau, so no need for technical support.
Plus, the concept of Gue'vesa has been dropped by GW. I doubt it ever returns. More xenos would be what I would expect for the future.

Mewiththeface wrote:Directly to OP, ignoring other conversations in this massive thread
-You are held up on your paradigm which limits your thinking. You in no way can believe the tau and their progress. Why not? Because it is beyond your believed possibilities, the laws you have set for your own universe, and the Tau are beyond that. It is science fiction, anything is possible. Anything claimed to be 'impossible' is just a limitation of a paradigm. Things that have become so excepted, they become law. It is entirely possible that Tau have advanced that quickly as they aren't human. You are thinking from a human standpoint. Yes, humans apparently couldn't ever evolve that fast. However, you don't know everything about the tau. Maybe their conditions where more harsh and their genetics more easily mutable. Thus, allowing for quicker evolution and expansion. Just because humans aren't like that, doesn't mean tau can't be like that either.

Then please, educate us.

From what I read he is simply saying that how can you pass judgement on something of which you have no knowledge. Its like saying X alien cannot do Y because Z alien cannot do Y. It’s S T U P I D.

In context, X is tau. Y is advancing fast and Z is humanity.

Mordoskul wrote:

Mewiththeface wrote:Directly to OP, ignoring other conversations in this massive thread
-You are held up on your paradigm which limits your thinking. You in no way can believe the tau and their progress. Why not? Because it is beyond your believed possibilities, the laws you have set for your own universe, and the Tau are beyond that. It is science fiction, anything is possible. Anything claimed to be 'impossible' is just a limitation of a paradigm. Things that have become so excepted, they become law. It is entirely possible that Tau have advanced that quickly as they aren't human. You are thinking from a human standpoint. Yes, humans apparently couldn't ever evolve that fast. However, you don't know everything about the tau. Maybe their conditions where more harsh and their genetics more easily mutable. Thus, allowing for quicker evolution and expansion. Just because humans aren't like that, doesn't mean tau can't be like that either.

Then please, educate us.

On what sir?

Tau have tech, IG have numbers. you could have an modern trooper with an M16 vs a couple hundred people with sharpened rocks...

haters hate, people hate, everyone hates... science fiction is sometimes illogical. yadda yadda yadda...


I hope that sums this thread up.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Tau have tech, IG have numbers. you could have an modern trooper with an M16 vs a couple hundred people with sharpened rocks...

haters hate, people hate, everyone hates... science fiction is sometimes illogical. yadda yadda yadda...


I hope that sums this thread up.

Agreed, but we both know it won't stop at that.

The tau are abomination! i mean seriously anyone wanting a freaking peace treaty with every race!
Come-on!

Well, it works very well with imperial worlds, and they've learned orks and necrons are not in a talking mood.

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, it works very well with imperial worlds, and they've learned orks and necrons are not in a talking mood.

That's why they made a military pact with The Dark Eldar. I'm sure nothing bad will happen.

1hadhq wrote:
If you care to post the whole context, its 8 Sept worlds.
Sorry but 8 major holds aren't that impressive.
The BRB of 5th ed expands this to:

- 8 major Sept
- 9 minor sept.
- 3 kroot worlds
- 4 farsight enclaves

Still not really big.

The sept worlds are Tau only. Not sure where the 3 kroot world thing came from, I can't recall seeing it in the codex. You're being fair by counting the farsight enclaves since, technically, they aren't really a part of the Empire.

The thing that gets me is the typically bad GW writing. They start the codex by talking about how dense and compact the empire is and that it controls over 300 lightyears of space that has a higher than average density of habitable worlds. Then it talks about how the Tau settle every available space they find like moons, asteroids and planetoids.

I really wish they would hire real writers someday or create something like xenology (but without the bias) that would discuss all the factions. It's not as if they don't already change fluff when it suits them anyway so it can't be because they're afraid to lock-in the story of the 40k 'verse...

1hadhq wrote:
Back to the all encompassing 'hater' argument? Its as convincing as 'but we have railgunz'.
Seriously, either tell the whole story or be prepared to have someone point at the missing parts.

I said it once, tongue in cheek and then referenced it once. Please don't confuse me with others you don't agree with. FWIW maybe develop a sense of humor and stop taking this stuff so seriously because, you know, life is short and if you get worked up over plastic army men, I'd hate to be the guy that cuts you off on your morning commute. Also, there were no missing parts from my paraphrasing of the codex as my later quote confirmed. I'm not sure what your educational background is but paraphrasing is a legitimate form of quoting large sections of text especially when a source is cited.

1hadhq wrote:
As I own every codex, I may prefer to see a reference and nobody expected whole pages quoted.
But look, it was not so much work to post the line youre talking about, wasn't it?

You're worse than an ex-girlfriend I had. "I know the answer but I want to try and force you to jump through hoops anyway".

Relax, man, it's going to be a nice day....somewhere.

Don't now your girlfreind ,but beeing worse isn't good


The first number of 8 septs is part of the codex page you have referred to.
The second listing comes from the map of the Tau empire in the 5th ed rulebook. Did forget the vespids, tough.
So +1 world of insectiod allies.

BRB already expands the empire. But it is also is not going to tell us details as most Empires are shown incomplete, just the objects of interest ( ie wellknown worlds ).

1hadhq wrote:Don't now your girlfreind ,but beeing worse isn't good


The first number of 8 septs is part of the codex page you have referred to.
The second listing comes from the map of the Tau empire in the 5th ed rulebook. Did forget the vespids, tough.
So +1 world of insectiod allies.

BRB already expands the empire. But it is also is not going to tell us details as most Empires are shown incomplete, just the objects of interest ( ie wellknown worlds ).

I guess we'll have to wait for the Codex: Earth Caste before we learn about the Tau version of forge worlds.

It's actually well over 20 septs at present and each sept is not 1 world but an entire system; doesn't make a huge difference but....
(page 6) "Soon the Tau Empire stretched over a little more than three hundred light years and incorporated eight heavily settled systems known as septs." (emphasis mine)

This is especially relevant when one considers this (page 10): "The Tau empire encompasses a dense yet astrographically small area of space. Many hundreds of star systems exist within this region, and an unusually high proportion harbour an environment conducive to life. As the Tau steadily expand the borders of their empire, they continue to encounter other races. The empire now encompasses over twenty septs - fully developed Tau systems - and a large number of vassal alien homeworlds."

So, they started with 8 and now have over 20 plus "a large number" of alien worlds. As I mentioned earlier, fluff being as scarce as it is, there's no telling how many "a large number" is but it would be safe to assume that it's more than just the Kroot and Vespid.

I thought the Tau Empire was 100 planets...where'd I get that number from?

I ont think any of the Tau support understands what Im saying. The lasgun is dirt cheap and simple, the pulse rifle is better and more complicated in the way it works. I have read this on the lexicanum!
Give a Tau engineer the bluprints to a lasgun and im sure it would make it quicker than it does a pulse rifle. (well maybe not at first it would have to know the human parts.)

Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

In the rules that Andy Hoare wrote, back in the days when GW did neat things for its customers, they were allowed two pulse rifles per unit and the team leader could have a markerlight.

Not true. There was fluff about them giving pulse weaponry to their more "trusted" allies.

The Gue'vasa unit, if you'll remember, had it so that you could employ Tau weaponry as "Special" weapons to represent that fact.

It's been rewritten to imply that the reason Tau don't give their weaponry out anymore is a more practical one. Training and upkeep.
Guardsmen learn how to maintain their Lasguns very early on, and have it drilled into them.
Kroot know how to use their rifles from years of experience.
Why force them to learn a new gun?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

In the rules that Andy Hoare wrote, back in the days when GW did neat things for its customers, they were allowed two pulse rifles per unit and the team leader could have a markerlight.

I had forgotten about the Markerlight!

Couldn't they also take Fusion Blasters for Sentinels?

Kanluwen wrote:Not true. There was fluff about them giving pulse weaponry to their more "trusted" allies.

The Gue'vasa unit, if you'll remember, had it so that you could employ Tau weaponry as "Special" weapons to represent that fact.

It's been rewritten to imply that the reason Tau don't give their weaponry out anymore is a more practical one. Training and upkeep.
Guardsmen learn how to maintain their Lasguns very early on, and have it drilled into them.
Kroot know how to use their rifles from years of experience.
Why force them to learn a new gun?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

In the rules that Andy Hoare wrote, back in the days when GW did neat things for its customers, they were allowed two pulse rifles per unit and the team leader could have a markerlight.

I had forgotten about the Markerlight!

Couldn't they also take Fusion Blasters for Sentinels?

I think that may be what they tell their human allies. "oh silly human your so good with that flashlight, just stick with ok. You don't need this big old pulse rifle, you probably wouldn't like".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I think that may be what they tell their human allies. "oh silly human your so good with that flashlight, just stick with ok. You don't need this big old pulse rifle, you probably wouldn't like".

Bahaha, QFT

If anything, the Tau would modify the lasguns for their new allies. The modified the Kroot rifles to fire a charged shot instead of using chemical propellant and they modified Vespid neutorn blasters to better utilize their crystals (page 29, tau codex).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I ont think any of the Tau support understands what Im saying. The lasgun is dirt cheap and simple, the pulse rifle is better and more complicated in the way it works. I have read this on the lexicanum!
Give a Tau engineer the bluprints to a lasgun and im sure it would make it quicker than it does a pulse rifle. (well maybe not at first it would have to know the human parts.)

The lasgun is incredibly complex, owing to the power cell design.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

Oh really?





Have you ever read the Tau Codex or been in a store that sells Tau miniatures?

My friend who played tau would always joke about tau 'safe plasma', 'tau tested, mother approved'

So what is the lasguns complexity compared to other 40k weapons?

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) becasue they consider them too valuable.

Oh really?





Have you ever read the Tau Codex or been in a store that sells Tau miniatures?

Yes and the occasional human gets one too. Let me clarify: They're not standard issue.

With Kroot its complicated: Kroot prefer they're Kroot rifle because its most likely more rugged which serves their purposes of crawling through muck and whatnot. Also The Kroot Rifle is made by Kroot for Kroot. If The pulse rifle was their standard arm they would be dependant on the Tau for arms. So although they are part of the Tau Empire they still feel very independant in their hearts. As for the upgrades that add more oomph course they'll take some of that.

With humans its just that they don't trust them. From the Tau perspective Humans are already formidable warriors with a measly lasgun. They don't want milions of humans armed with Tau gear inside their own territory and I can't blame them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes and the occasional human gets one too. Let me clarify: They're not standard issue.

Of course they're not.

With Kroot its complicated: Kroot prefer they're Kroot rifle because its most likely more rugged which serves their purposes of crawling through muck and whatnot. Also The Kroot Rifle is made by Kroot for Kroot. If The pulse rifle was their standard arm they would be dependant on the Tau for arms. So although they are part of the Tau Empire they still feel very independant in their hearts. As for the upgrades that add more oomph course they'll take some of that.

Well, and of course the fact that a pulse rifle is a far more complex piece of equipment that could theoretically be easier to detect(what with it having an energy discharge and whatnot), along with it not likely being a suitable weapon for a race that alters itself as it sees fit by devouring genetic data.
A solid slug will leave genetic material available to them. Flashfrying it with a plasma burst won't.

With humans its just that they don't trust them. From the Tau perspective Humans are already formidable warriors with a measly lasgun. They don't want milions of humans armed with Tau gear inside their own territory and I can't blame them.

Bzzt! Wrong again!

Taros campaign hinted at the Tau beginning to experiment with actually establishing full regiments of former Guard and human volunteers trained by those Guard.
The kicker?
Those humans were given Earth Caste produced pulse rifles/carbines and armor on par with what the Fire Warriors have.

Actually we don't use pulse rifles more widely, because they suck in close combat and at cutting the food afterwards

But generally, people misunderstand the Tau Empire. The Tau inhabited planets are not huge Forge Worlds able to equip the whole Eastern Fringe. The Tau Empire basically is a union of mostly independent planets working together in trade, science and military issues. The military structure and equipment of Xeno/human planets is mostly kept. Tau are known to improve technology once in a while (e.g. Kroot rifle), but they don't have the manpower to restructure all armies in their sector (and they don't want to anyway). And most technology is specifically tailored to Tau physiology (and in Tau language) and needs basic technological understanding, which many cultures lack: No use to lend a Stealth Bomber to a Yanomami tribe.

That said, nobody trusts the loyalty of humans (esp those humans who have just changed sides), not even Tau or humans.

agnosto wrote:If anything, the Tau would modify the lasguns for their new allies. The modified the Kroot rifles to fire a charged shot instead of using chemical propellant and they modified Vespid neutron blasters to better utilize their crystals (page 29, tau codex).

So Tau want guard with lascannons instead of lasguns?
IMO. Tau see the lasgun as weird variant of markerlights and may "improve" them to non-violent...

Kilkrazy wrote:The lasgun is incredibly complex, owing to the power cell design.

Complex?

MunitorumManual / page 60-61 lasgun :
.....
A lasgun is easy to manufacture and maintain, and very reliable even under the toughest battlefield conditions.
......
The lasgun is powered by rechargable powerpacks, but carries a residual supply and can be rechargesd using its own solar converters.
When in base, there will be designated power chargers, which may be used to recharge each guardsmens power packs and its his responsibility to ensure that he keeps a full load as possible at all times.
...
Used conservatively, a laser powerpack will last for many shots ( 150 ) and can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing its thermal cells
to heat or light.

Somehow, the organization which supplies ammo and replaces lost or damaged weapons disagrees.

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau don't give pulse rifles to their human soldiers (or Kroot) because they consider them too valuable.

Oh really?
Have you ever read the Tau Codex or been in a store that sells Tau miniatures?

Really.
The shaper is the only Kroot with access to Tau and Imperial weapons.
Go get a box of basic kroot and put those not supplied by GW pulse rifles on.
Oh wait, thats not legal wargear....
Maybe the kroot don't get pulse rifles since Tau consider them not as trusted allies ( per codex Tau Empire ).?
The meatshields tend to get the expendable stuff and Kroot seem to have the role of ablative wounds.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes and the occasional human gets one too. Let me clarify: They're not standard issue.

Of course they're not.

With Kroot its complicated: Kroot prefer they're Kroot rifle because its most likely more rugged which serves their purposes of crawling through muck and whatnot. Also The Kroot Rifle is made by Kroot for Kroot. If The pulse rifle was their standard arm they would be dependant on the Tau for arms. So although they are part of the Tau Empire they still feel very independant in their hearts. As for the upgrades that add more oomph course they'll take some of that.

Well, and of course the fact that a pulse rifle is a far more complex piece of equipment that could theoretically be easier to detect(what with it having an energy discharge and whatnot), along with it not likely being a suitable weapon for a race that alters itself as it sees fit by devouring genetic data.
A solid slug will leave genetic material available to them. Flashfrying it with a plasma burst won't.

With humans its just that they don't trust them. From the Tau perspective Humans are already formidable warriors with a measly lasgun. They don't want milions of humans armed with Tau gear inside their own territory and I can't blame them.

Bzzt! Wrong again!

Taros campaign hinted at the Tau beginning to experiment with actually establishing full regiments of former Guard and human volunteers trained by those Guard.
The kicker?
Those humans were given Earth Caste produced pulse rifles/carbines and armor on par with what the Fire Warriors have.

What page is this hint again?

Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

Has this thread really degraded into some bickering over the advanced-ness of lasguns vs pulse rifles, and the ability to produce them?

You might be able to throw more little rocks than larger ones, but the larger rocks do more damage. Oh and they can be guided.

You either dislike tau, you like them, or you don't care either way. If your having trouble coming up with reason why for any of the above, then just stop trying.

I swear most of the anti tau in this thread is just verbatim from the uplifting handbook.

IvanTih wrote:You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

We went from stone age to space flight in 6000 years. (4000BC was still Neolithic)

Scott-S6 wrote:

IvanTih wrote:You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

We went from stone age to space flight in 6000 years. (4000BC was still Neolithic)

Plus, it's always been hinted at that some "greater power" caused the Warp Storms that isolated T'au from the rest of the galaxy. And also it's been hinted at that those Warp Storms also y'know...caused time to flow faster for the Tau within the storm.

Voila! You get faster advancements, within a smaller time frame.

Even without that, if just one or two of the really big discoveries came earlier it could have sped our development up significantly.

Tau have only developed a little faster than we did.

Plus, the "mastered primitive weapons and discovered fire" doesn't have to mean cavemen. If we allow for a little bit of race snobbery that could describe us at 1000BC pretty readily.

juraigamer wrote:Has this thread really degraded into some bickering over the advanced-ness of lasguns vs pulse rifles, and the ability to produce them?

You might be able to throw more little rocks than larger ones, but the larger rocks do more damage. Oh and they can be guided.

You either dislike tau, you like them, or you don't care either way. If your having trouble coming up with reason why for any of the above, then just stop trying.

I swear most of the anti tau in this thread is just verbatim from the uplifting handbook.

Was this thread ever anything else? We were always talking about tau TECH, and how fast they obtained it.

juraigamer wrote:Has this thread really degraded into some bickering over the advanced-ness of lasguns vs pulse rifles, and the ability to produce them?

You might be able to throw more little rocks than larger ones, but the larger rocks do more damage. Oh and they can be guided.

You either dislike tau, you like them, or you don't care either way. If your having trouble coming up with reason why for any of the above, then just stop trying.

I swear most of the anti tau in this thread is just verbatim from the uplifting handbook.

Argh I thought I summed up this thread a while ago... I guess Warboss was right

Anti tau as well as tau fanboys are both to blame for the continuation of this thread.

Yes I agree that larger rocks do more damage, and guiding them is a possibility, but honestly, can you concentrate on guiding a giant rock when you have millions of rocks being thrown at you? Have you heard of stoning? Lots and lots of rocks add up. And doing more damage doesn't necessarily mean killing them all, as the IG vastly outnumbers the Tau (I think someone's gonna kill me for not citing this... ).

Much like the russians vs the germans in WWII (or was it WWI?)
The ruskies only had enough rifles to supply one per two people, and each was given their own magazine. Through the loss of millions of lives, they pushed the germans back, even when the germans were better equipped with weaponary and the like. (although winter would have helped..)


On a side note, do tau have exterminatus weapons?

You are right, it was WW2. You are also correct about the other stuff to. You cant cite comman sense so dont sweat it lol.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:So what is the lasguns complexity compared to other 40k weapons?

It is the battery.

It contains parts that let it recharge from any energy source including heat and light. This means it must hold something that lets it have an internal heat gradient, perhaps a black hole or a channel into hyperspace. All kinds of wiring and control mechanisms, as well, all solid state.

Does it have to be as complicated as a black hole? We have stuff today that charge from sunlight....

The battery also charges from heat, for example by being put in a fire. This is done by making use of the temperature differential between two different zones.

The only way to create a useable differential in the battery is to create a cold region inside it, insulated from the hot surface. This cold region will heat up while generating energy, so in order for it to continue working, the incoming heat needs to be discharged somewhere. It can't be discharged to the surface, as thay is already hot, so it must be compressed into a black hole, or sent into hyperspace or some other means of compressing and discharging heat unknown to modern physics.

I'm not saying that 40K Handwavium technology can't create such a device, because obviously it can, just that it is a very complex thing to do.

I assume that lasgun batteries are stamped out by a Standard Template Construct which no-one understands any longer, but as long as it keeps working, the IG are all right.

I thought one of the main storyline hooks for the Tau was whether or not some force was behind the creation of the Ethereal caste and the increased speed at which they advanced.

My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

On a side note, do tau have exterminatus weapons?

Never heard of any, besides it's not the tau's fighting style to just wipe things out like that.

IvanTih wrote:My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

Interesting since there's not such thing as a "pulse cannon". If any of them had plasma cannons, he would have been toast...them being AP2 and rapid fire and all....

In the end books and fluff don't have anything to do with game mechanics. You were reading a book about marines so of course the marines are unkillable agents of destruction. Read a book about eldar and you'll read about a farseer wiping out a whole chapter of marines or some other nonsense.

Meh. this topic has become unfun.

Carry on.

juraigamer wrote:Never heard of any, besides it's not the tau's fighting style to just wipe things out like that.

The Tau are still fighting for territory, without good FTL drives they need all the real estate they can find. Something would have to scare the hell out of them before they'd consider rendering a planet uninhabitable.

IvanTih wrote:My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

Wow, this is soooo funny. Oh wait, it's not. So ultimately you hate Tau because IoM can steamroll them? I guess every reason is good if it works for you.

I just wanted to say that this is just the exact thing why most people find SM boring and lame (this part at least). It's like with superman. It is so interesting when main hero is un-killable and nothing can hurt him or stop him. Not because he is skilled or smart or had a good plan or was lucky or anything interesting. He can just walk and nothing hurts him. Really sets the tension and drama. Or is it making the whole thing really boring? Can't remember which is it..

Agreed, it's the same as if anyone else had created a thread saying "why I hate the Imperium, why I hate Orks, Why I hate Chaos".

The big problem I have with the Tau story relating to their advancement is that it actually makes very little sense, with what we know.

Advancement throughout history has been a direct result of conflict. Without it, there is no push for innovation and technological advancement becomes stagnant. Look at how advanced the greatest warring empires were within their time compared to the rest of the world: Ancient China, Rome at its height, Europe as compared to the Americas and Africa a few centuries ago.

With an entire planet at peace, I have no confidence in their ability to improve, especially as related to their ability to bring war to another race.

Fearspect wrote:The big problem I have with the Tau story relating to their advancement is that it actually makes very little sense, with what we know.

Advancement throughout history has been a direct result of conflict. Without it, there is no push for innovation and technological advancement becomes stagnant. Look at how advanced the greatest warring empires were within their time compared to the rest of the world: Ancient China, Rome at its height, Europe as compared to the Americas and Africa a few centuries ago.

With an entire planet at peace, I have no confidence in their ability to improve, especially as related to their ability to bring war to another race.

Advancement due to the necessity of it is one thing, splitting society into 4 parts and saying "You focus on this, You focus on this, You focus on this and You focus on this" actually causes progress faster.

Take our current world for instance, how far have we gone in 100 years? What was it like in 1910? What is it like now? Now take out all the infighting and imagine if the world was unified and how far we would be.

We would not have had many of the advancements that resulted from the first two World Wars for one.

Look at the International Space Station project. We split it up to different countries and said, "You focus on this, you focus on this, etc." What happened as a result? The US had to build the whole thing.

agnosto wrote:

IvanTih wrote:My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

Interesting since there's not such thing as a "pulse cannon". If any of them had plasma cannons, he would have been toast...them being AP2 and rapid fire and all....

In the end books and fluff don't have anything to do with game mechanics. You were reading a book about marines so of course the marines are unkillable agents of destruction. Read a book about eldar and you'll read about a farseer wiping out a whole chapter of marines or some other nonsense.

Meh. this topic has become unfun.

Carry on.

That was an Imperial Guard novel and it was written by Graham McNeill.
Fluff shows us the true capabilities of someone,not some balanced game rules.
In the Path of a Warrior as you say Exarchs do quite well against marines.

IvanTih wrote:My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

Points to Damocles Crusade, and Fire Warrior.

Kilkrazy wrote:

IvanTih wrote:My final words on this subjects that IOM steamrolls Tau(points to Sabbath's World Crusade).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Deathwatch Space Marine in the Last chancers novel casually walked through the combined firepower of 3 Crisis Suits (wrecked his armor quite a bit, but he was a-ok) and proceeded to brutally and systematically dismantle said suits. The suits had 3 pulse cannons, a flamer and two weapon systems I can´t remember between them.

Points to Damocles Crusade, and Fire Warrior.

Which contradict almost everything else,thus other examples are correct(and remember kids Tau are only truly superior to the Imperium when Andy Hoare writes it,who's space battles also contradict every other source).

Ha Ha, it wasn't your final word!

Kilkrazy wrote:Ha Ha, it wasn't your final word!

Yeah.

I love how this boils down to "i agree with fluff only as far as it agrees with me"

Retribution wrote:I love how this boils down to "i agree with fluff only as far as it agrees with me"

No it doesn't,I don't use a source if it particulary contradicts majority of sources.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Agreed, it's the same as if anyone else had created a thread saying "why I hate the Imperium, why I hate Orks, Why I hate Chaos".

Who could possibly hate orks?!!?!?? They're so loveable, in that killing blood thirsty way.

The only race I "hate" are necrons, and that's only because they're creepy....

I do believe this thread should end soon. We aren't getting anywhere, and we've begun to repeat things already previously stated. Unless anyone has something new?

IvanTih wrote:

Retribution wrote:I love how this boils down to "i agree with fluff only as far as it agrees with me"

No it doesn't,I don't use a source if it particulary contradicts majority of sources.

So you don't agree with fluff that doesn't agree with you, yes? The Tau Codex is fluff (DUH), IA:Taros is fluff, Fire Warrior is fluff (as much as 40k novels can be counted as fluff)

Geeze if we took every published piece of artwork, novel and so on as legit fluff we would have such a huge headache.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that really counts as fluff is whats in the core 40k rulebook and in any of the codexes. Anything else is fanfiction.

Retribution wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Retribution wrote:I love how this boils down to "i agree with fluff only as far as it agrees with me"

No it doesn't,I don't use a source if it particulary contradicts majority of sources.

So you don't agree with fluff that doesn't agree with you, yes? The Tau Codex is fluff (DUH), IA:Taros is fluff, Fire Warrior is fluff (as much as 40k novels can be counted as fluff)

Everything in 40k is cannon,but some things are not used like that charge in DOW intro.



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juraigamer wrote:Geeze if we took every published piece of artwork, novel and so on as legit fluff we would have such a huge headache.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that really counts as fluff is whats in the core 40k rulebook and in any of the codexes. Anything else is fanfiction.

Then you are wrong.


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In general, newer edition stuff > Older edition stuff

Codexes and main book > fluff books (like 13th crusade) > white dwarfs > novels by main dudes > other novels > other stuff > game stats (which are only useful in really, really simplistic things like 'tau have better armor than Impguard').

I think that general is how it goes.

Except, of course, that that is your opinion on the "ordering" of canon.

There is NO official line on canon.

Erm... have you ever heard of the 'Division of labour'? Well, it makes people very efficient. Tau have been using Division of labour for most of their existence, and haven't spent time and energy trying to kill other tau and decimate tau cities. Thus they acquired better technology faster. This is awfully easy to understand, and thus makes the "oh, i hate tau because the tau backstory does not make sense hurr durr" invalid.

+EDIT+
And hating the tau because the IoM are better means you should hate everyone but the necrons and chaos- beacuse they are clearly the two strongest forces in 40k.

juraigamer wrote:Take our current world for instance, how far have we gone in 100 years? What was it like in 1910? What is it like now? Now take out all the infighting and imagine if the world was unified and how far we would be.

War is great for science, technology and industry.

WW2 led directly to computing.

If not for the cold war it's likely that no-one would have gone to the moon.

Diversity drives innovation.


Of course, this could be a human trait - alien races with utterly different psychologies might do their best R&D under better circumstances. I think it's unlikely though. The ability to adapt and innovate whilst under pressure/hardship is a survival trait. The ability to do that when everyone's happy is not.


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Bossasaurus wrote:Erm... have you ever heard of the 'Division of labour'? Well, it makes people very efficient. Tau have been using Division of labour for most of their existence, and haven't spent time and energy trying to kill other tau and decimate tau cities. Thus they acquired better technology faster. This is awfully easy to understand, and thus makes the "oh, i hate tau because the tau backstory does not make sense hurr durr" invalid.

A caste system is not the same as division of labour. We don't have enough details on their working practices to determine if they have always used division of labour working practices (or if they use them at all).

On the contrary, assigning people to particular stations because of their caste - not because of their aptitude - is inefficient.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, of course, that that is your opinion on the "ordering" of canon.

There is NO official line on canon.

I know,but I wanted to use that as a unofficial guideline.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bossasaurus wrote:Erm... have you ever heard of the 'Division of labour'? Well, it makes people very efficient. Tau have been using Division of labour for most of their existence, and haven't spent time and energy trying to kill other tau and decimate tau cities. Thus they acquired better technology faster. This is awfully easy to understand, and thus makes the "oh, i hate tau because the tau backstory does not make sense hurr durr" invalid.

+EDIT+
And hating the tau because the IoM are better means you should hate everyone but the necrons and chaos- beacuse they are clearly the two strongest forces in 40k.

I hate Tau because they require industrial amounts of plot armor to stay alive.

Retribution wrote:
So you don't agree with fluff that doesn't agree with you, yes? The Tau Codex is fluff (DUH), IA:Taros is fluff, Fire Warrior is fluff (as much as 40k novels can be counted as fluff)

juraigamer wrote:Geeze if we took every published piece of artwork, novel and so on as legit fluff we would have such a huge headache.

+1 to the second quote.

Seriously, if firewarrior counts, all the bad things coming from DoW count too. Plus razorbacks can tranform into land raiders ...
I'd consider the novels descending from computergames as canonical as any fanfic. The reputation of those series isn't positive.

Commonly agreeable sources:

- rulebook
- codices
- expansions ( apoc. planetstrike, spearhead, IA )

more often than not accepted sources:
- BL novels

inacceptable sources:
- certain authors,
- fanwank

Ivan - then if you agree it is only unofficial (your opinion) then saying "you're wrong" is a little harsh, as they are not objectively wrong.

Fearspect wrote:The big problem I have with the Tau story relating to their advancement is that it actually makes very little sense, with what we know.

Advancement throughout history has been a direct result of conflict. Without it, there is no push for innovation and technological advancement becomes stagnant. Look at how advanced the greatest warring empires were within their time compared to the rest of the world: Ancient China, Rome at its height, Europe as compared to the Americas and Africa a few centuries ago.

With an entire planet at peace, I have no confidence in their ability to improve, especially as related to their ability to bring war to another race.

Um that's the whole point.

The entire "rapid-tau-advancement-story", from its surprising speed, the mightly convenient warp-storm cutting them off, the "sudden appearance" of the Etheral to top it off with a reliable, "irresistable" command; the thing was explicitly made to look fishy and imply that someone's been tinkering with the.



Also:

I am amazed at how much hate Tau are getting simply because they couldn't steamroll the Imperium in a head-on fight (not like any other 40K faction ever stood a snowball's chance in hell of doing it either, but, well, nevermind).

A good galactic (background-)story doesn't necessarly need that. In fact, I would argue that a fair bit of Tau Empire background takes major inspiration from Asimov's Foundation Series, specifically the "thousand year plan"as implemented by Hari Seldon for, to quote him in Asimov's book, "The Greater Good"...

In other words, both stories deal with galactic civilisations that got an artificial boost in technology, knowledge, as well as societal traits (inclusive of other races, fairly unaffected by the Warp, in case of the Tau) not with the objective to "beat" the big galactic empire on the decline, but, at least in Asimov's version, to mitigate the negative effects of the galactic empires inevitable collapse and to, quote, "reduce 30,000 years of Dark Ages and barbarism to a single millennium".

In this sense, the Tau Empire is (IMO) meant to conjur certain parallels to Asimov's "second Empire" in the 40K universe; they are not meant to beat the Imperium of Mankind or the Nids or whoever in a one-on-one fight. Rather, their purpose is that they've been "made" to "keep things going" after the Imperium "inevitably" collapses (lacking the Foundation series psychohistory, the plan would have to be made up by someone with future-sight/precoginition in 40K; which in turn would support the link to Eldar from Xenology). The Tau are thus more akin to a sort of pan-galactic insurance policy so that the galaxy does not fall to the crazies should the Imperium ever give out.

Also, assuming these parallels to Asimov hold, there would perhaps even be multiple "Tau Empires". Not necessarly the same biological species or the same technology, but certainly multiple minor civilizations that got tinkered with and who are now ringfencing the Imperium of Man to hedge against the catastrophe of its likely/inevitable/probable collapse.


Of course, it should be noted that the thousand-year-plan in Asimov's books crashes and burns. The same might be true for 40K.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ivan - then if you agree it is only unofficial (your opinion) then saying "you're wrong" is a little harsh, as they are not objectively wrong.

And for the love of god provide that damn BL quote?
Official stance is that everything is cannon.

IvanTih wrote:Everything in 40k is cannon,but some things are not used like that charge in DOW intro.

Everything in 40k may be cannon, but not canon
Since C.S.Goto we know that some sources are just too dumb to be considered true.

1hadhq wrote:

Retribution wrote:
So you don't agree with fluff that doesn't agree with you, yes? The Tau Codex is fluff (DUH), IA:Taros is fluff, Fire Warrior is fluff (as much as 40k novels can be counted as fluff)

juraigamer wrote:Geeze if we took every published piece of artwork, novel and so on as legit fluff we would have such a huge headache.

+1 to the second quote.

Seriously, if firewarrior counts, all the bad things coming from DoW count too.

This is an interesting one, because of course one of the commonly quoted anti-Tau passages is from DoW.

Except that it isn't.

What people quote is an interpretation of the information given in DoW, altered to make Tau seem as evil as the IoM.

If you go back to the original source, it is different.

Of course, if we dismiss DoW as a source of canonical fluff, it is all irrelevant.

Ivan- please provide a quote that "everything" is CANON.

@KK:

DoW is a computer game and has to adapt the story to the needs of such product.
Novels based on PC-games may not follow the background of 40k itself as close as a book meant to support the tabletop or just the 40k-verse would.

I don't think we should dismiss DoW ( and any other 'software' based 40k ) as part of the fluff, but consider it as questionable source and therefore
I agree it is possibly not canon. Now, canon is defined by authority, and since GW seems to subscribe to "possible futures" and "everything we told you is a lie",
lack of quotes to base : a) this is canon and b) this is not canon
leads directly to the conclusion:
1) if an agreement of the fanbase decides what is canon and what is not, it is still reached without official consent and will be most likely ignored by GW if they don't
like ( copypaste ) it.
2) canon is a term used for sources exclusively used, 40k may have more than 1 universal truth, so canon would be fine when used for teachings of the ecclesiarchy
but isn't acceptable to sort the background as none of the GW (and its subcompanies) publications may be 'holy books'.
3) some authors should be forgotten. Good example Kroothawk brought up: C.S.goto.



believing the lies of xenos is treason. Failure to discomfort the enemy will be dealt with accordingly!

Kilkrazy wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Seriously, if firewarrior counts, all the bad things coming from DoW count too.

This is an interesting one, because of course one of the commonly quoted anti-Tau passages is from DoW.
Except that it isn't.
What people quote is an interpretation of the information given in DoW, altered to make Tau seem as evil as the IoM.
If you go back to the original source, it is different.
Of course, if we dismiss DoW as a source of canonical fluff, it is all irrelevant.

First we were talking about the Fire Warrior novel, which is not that bad for an ego-shooter novelization and if you keep in mind that the main character is a totally unusual Tau under weird circumstances.

On DoW: The so called quote (actually Tau haters never quote sources because they know quite well that there are no quotes, check the threads if you don't believe me) happens in a world that doesn't exist in 40k. In 40k it is an Imperial planet, not a Tau planet. Just an artifact of having to provide an alternatve ending for every race winning.

What major race isn't protected by industrial amounts of plot-armor, exactly?

Yes it is neccessary for a PC-game to provide an end for each playable factions victory.
GW accepted ( or missed to refute ) the end sequence given to a Tau victory.

Generally, the rulebook also has to provide a possible victory for each faction.

But you have claimed there are no quotes to make, so assuming I am supporting the IoM here and thus a possible "tau-hater", I' ll add a quote to prove the evil of the Tau ( more precisely, rebuke the nonsense of good guys ).:

BL/ Sons of Dorn.
Imperial fist marine ( the same that accompanied the imperial envoy in the Tau codex story ):
page 9

...the full weigth of the Tau forces led by Commander Brightsword fell on Nimbosa before the Imperium'S forces had arrived.
Not a single human colonist survived the assault, down to the youngest child.

page 11:

...First he had failed to avert the Tau offensive, and as a result he considered the death of the human colonists in their millions as his responsibility, and his alone.

This is no accident. Its a ongoing story from codex Tau, thus canon.

The Tau seem to 'Imperium-Light'

IvanTih wrote:Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

Wrong. Humankinds technology regressed.

1hadhq wrote:Yes it is neccessary for a PC-game to provide an end for each playable factions victory.
GW accepted ( or missed to refute ) the end sequence given to a Tau victory.

Generally, the rulebook also has to provide a possible victory for each faction.

But you have claimed there are no quotes to make, so assuming I am supporting the IoM here and thus a possible "tau-hater", I' ll add a quote to prove the evil of the Tau ( more precisely, rebuke the nonsense of good guys ).:

BL/ Sons of Dorn.
Imperial fist marine ( the same that accompanied the imperial envoy in the Tau codex story ):
page 9

...the full weigth of the Tau forces led by Commander Brightsword fell on Nimbosa before the Imperium'S forces had arrived.
Not a single human colonist survived the assault, down to the youngest child.

page 11:

...First he had failed to avert the Tau offensive, and as a result he considered the death of the human colonists in their millions as his responsibility, and his alone.

This is no accident. Its a ongoing story from codex Tau, thus canon.

So the Tau Empire is utterly evil, because they immediately sacked Brightsword after this massacre?
Or did this fact slip your mind by pure chance?
BTW Brightsword is a pupil of Commander Farsight of the Farsight enclave.

And in the DoW alternative end never happening in the 40k universe, an imperial observer speculates, why men and women separated from each other don't get children (ask Mom and Dad about this ). Only the third likeliest option he comes up with is the sterilization theory.

The battery also charges from heat, for example by being put in a fire. This is done by making use of the temperature differential between two different zones.

The only way to create a useable differential in the battery is to create a cold region inside it, insulated from the hot surface. This cold region will heat up while generating energy, so in order for it to continue working, the incoming heat needs to be discharged somewhere. It can't be discharged to the surface, as thay is already hot, so it must be compressed into a black hole, or sent into hyperspace or some other means of compressing and discharging heat unknown to modern physics.

I'm not saying that 40K Handwavium technology can't create such a device, because obviously it can, just that it is a very complex thing to do.

I assume that lasgun batteries are stamped out by a Standard Template Construct which no-one understands any longer, but as long as it keeps working, the IG are all right.

O I see, Im sure lasgun batteries are stamped out like cookies in the 40k universe.
Yes though, that is incredibly complex by todays standards haha. However im sure you talk to a 40k person and its like common knowlegge

I also must say when you had used that statement about micro-chips, I was talking about the difference of how the two guns work. I should have explained it better. I read how the pulse rifle fires and it sounded quite interesting and in depth. Im not 100% sure how the lasgun works but it cant be as in depth I wouldnt think.

agnosto wrote:

The moral? Join the greater good, we'll send an ethereal out to talk to you and don't worry about the pheromones.

Unless your Urien of the DE and turn a few Ethereals into wracks. Plus tons of other caste members.

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

I am surprised that anyone begin to say something about the Tau being Mary-Sue or whatever when you have Space Marines... especially Ultra Marines.

Of course, as ridiculous as the fluff for 40k is(even more ridiculous than comic books), I don't see how anyone can really get that vested into it. The 40k universe has some of the most ridiculous/cheesy stuff I have have the pleasure of coming across. I mean really... Space Zombies, Space Elves, S&M Space Elves, Mushroom Golblin/Ork monsters, Locust/Alien monsters, and Super Awesome Magical Kick Everyone's Ass Cuz they're OVER 9000 AWESOME-O Human Space Army, and a nazi germany inspired horde of crunchies. How realistic, deep, and riveting.

Good game though.

I say the only race that really doesnt make sense are the orks...... they grow. From a mushroom.......

Kroothawk wrote:
So the Tau Empire is utterly evil, because they immediately sacked Brightsword after this massacre?
Or did this fact slip your mind by pure chance?
BTW Brightsword is a pupil of Commander Farsight of the Farsight enclave.

And in the DoW alternative end never happening in the 40k universe, an imperial observer speculates, why men and women separated from each other don't get children (ask Mom and Dad about this ). Only the third likeliest option he comes up with is the sterilization theory.

No, the Tau Empire is as evil as everyone in 40k.
Proven by GW.

You blame the greater good or brightsword alone?
Did the fact a leaders actions affect the whole armies reputation slip your mind?
Next thing I see is youre saying its Farsight's fault?
Ok so who was the mind and coach behind the known fire-caste leaders? Will you blame him too?

Sorry, thats awful. Its like saying the IoM usually acts like those treacherous chaos"marines", because they once followed the Emperor.

Secondly, DoW happens in 40k, as 40k and GW's influence is all over it. Its maybe just 1 possible future ( or all of them if a player decides to play the campaign with each faction ) and thus not past or present like any fluff-story of M42 .
But, we don't need DoW since I did provide a story from codices and BL books. Is your point that 2-3 codices and a BL publication are invalid?
Would assume if GW runs with 1 story across several publications, this is meant to be canon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

1hadhq wrote:No, the Tau Empire is as evil as everyone in 40k.
Proven by GW.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Sorry, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

1hadhq wrote:You blame the greater good or brightsword alone?

The decision for the massacre was made by a single military leader, who was trained by another massacre happy military leader. The latter was expelled from the Tau Empire, the former immediately sacked from his post, as massacres are not compatible with the Greater Good (except in extreme cases like a Tyranid invasion).

The Greater Good is not an obscure and totalitarian Death Cult, it is the pragmatic principle that working together without subjugating anyone, but enjoying the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology is better than killing each other. The European Union is based on similar principles and wouldn't accept a new member state either that threatens other member states with military action.

1hadhq wrote:Secondly, DoW happens in 40k, as 40k and GW's influence is all over it. Its maybe just 1 possible future ( or all of them if a player decides to play the campaign with each faction ) and thus not past or present like any fluff-story of M42 .
But, we don't need DoW since I did provide a story from codices and BL books. Is your point that 2-3 codices and a BL publication are invalid?
Would assume if GW runs with 1 story across several publications, this is meant to be canon.

The Brightsword massacre is canon, as is him being sacked for it. Farsight is in the Codex as well, without being part of the Tau Empire. Both are introduced for people wanting to play Tau but not wanting to miss their beloved massacres.

I don't deny that there is a potential of violent behavior in Tau (see Mont'au civil war times that almost extinguished the Tau race), but in the current Tau society under ethereal leadership, this is under control.

Scott-S6 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

There's PDF vs Imperium in the missile silo misssion but of course PDF have imperial equipment. When you cite material you don't go "find it yourself" after.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

There's PDF vs Imperium in the missile silo misssion but of course PDF have imperial equipment. When you cite material you don't go "find it yourself" after.

Yep, saw that. Can't see anything about the re-organized human auxiliaries apart from a few references to the fact that they exist (like when the captured officer was offered command of them)

All races in 40k are evil, its as simple as that. Just like every country in the real world does messed up things to get what they want. Everyone has an evil side.

The only things that arent evil by definition are Tyranid. They are just surviving naturaly, but when we look at them they are evil as hell.

The Tau are run on mind control, that is messed up and evil. The IoM has decimated billions in the name of the god-emperor. The Eldar created slaanesh, how else is this done but by evil acts. Orks just love war. Dark Eldar kill for fun and steal souls. Chaos, well yeah its chaos. Necrons also steal souls. everyone is evil in a way. Some more obvious than others, its how onbvious these races make their evil agendas that they gat their labels as "good" or "bad.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:All races in 40k are evil, its as simple as that.

Wrong, simple as that:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The Tau are run on mind control, that is messed up and evil.

Also wrong. Tau react to an ethereal no different as a human to a primarch. And bringing peace to a violent society on the rim to self destruction is not evil.

As I said, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

Ok so how many people in this thread have said tha the Etherals use pheremones to control the Tau, they go through civil war and everything else just like normal then they show up and everything is perfect? Dont sit here and say "As I said, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around." When your not actualy doing anything to be right about anything you say.

If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.

You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

Yes primarchs do control alot of the population with words but human history has undoubtedly shown we are not perfect like the Tau suddenly are. A society cannot be perfect, especially a caste society. Then you have envy and hate for other castes, if you are born into something that you dont want you will never want to do what you are supposed to in that society. Luckily the Etherals just put you in line with calming pheremones.

Bad times for being a Tau groupie when im around.

So now I will do a "Kroothawk" post;

No your wrong Tau are cool and I love them. and..... and Tau are just super dooper awesome and are the only not evil race in the galaxy. Even though you bashed EVERY race Sir Monty Im gona only point out the Tau stuff cuz theyre so uber.

Bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when im around.

Kroothawk wrote:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Sorry, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.
2) designers notes aren't available from GW. They existed once to explain a new faction, but GW did NOT include these in any Tau fluff afterwards.
So youre asking to have a "fluff as intended" vs "fluff as written" debate?
3) this is 5th ed. Tau background evolved, they got 2 codices and someday maybe a third. Tau are still included in several other GW publications like rulebooks, expansions, codices of other factions... You need to adapt.
4) the impression of Tau should be taken from available sources. outdated designers notes are not valid anymore.
5) I doubt youre able to give me bad times

Kroothawk wrote:
The decision for the massacre was made by a single military leader, who was trained by another massacre happy military leader. The latter was expelled from the Tau Empire, the former immediately sacked from his post, as massacres are not compatible with the Greater Good (except in extreme cases like a Tyranid invasion).

Corrections.
- Etherals have the final say, always. They also accompany the other Tau when the leave the Empire's borders and surely take the role of fire-caste 'advisor' not
lightly. Only farsight turned his back upon the Empire and he lost his 'advisors' before that.
- Farsight left on his own, the so called massacres against ork waagh's are not the same as massacring civilians.
- Brightsword isn't said to act without the etherals consent there, why should they not keep a etheral around when farsight already did not return?
- Brightsword was "reprimanded" ( which is also a hinted action, not confirmed ). how do we now it was not just : and then he got sent to another warzone?
- the fire caste did slaughter the civilians at nimbosa. Brightsword was reprimanded for his deeds against the IG/PDF. Massacring the unarmed is fine then?
- the fire caste soldiery who was following brightswords orders wasn't responsible at all since they had their orders, right?
- its unlikely to massacre millions without the higher ups knowing it.

Kroothawk wrote:
The Greater Good is not an obscure and totalitarian Death Cult, it is the pragmatic principle that working together without subjugating anyone, but enjoying the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology is better than killing each other. The European Union is based on similar principles and wouldn't accept a new member state either that threatens other member states with military action.

The EU is a political union, not a Empire on the offensive in a war. The EU also tends to support action vs common threats, the Tau do not.
The EU does not threathen states to "join or die", Tau do.

Kroothawk wrote:
The Brightsword massacre is canon, as is him being sacked for it. Farsight is in the Codex as well, without being part of the Tau Empire. Both are introduced for people wanting to play Tau but not wanting to miss their beloved massacres.

Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Kroothawk wrote:
I don't deny that there is a potential of violent behavior in Tau (see Mont'au civil war times that almost extinguished the Tau race), but in the current Tau society under ethereal leadership, this is under control.

Obviously the violence is controlled. Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Also Kroothawk and friends just because we are saying "Tau did something bad here" doesn't mean we are attacking the Tau or something. Finding other sides to the Tau like political nuance and ideological dissent are good things! Many of us are just trying to find something interesting about the Tau.

The biggest problem with the Tau is that they are Mary Sues. All conflict both on a personal level and political level that fiction has addressed since we could write seems to be explained away with etheral magic pixie dust and "low warp presence". We're talking about the mary sueest of Mary Sues here.

Other sides, conflict and nuance are a good thing!

xXSir MontyXx wrote:If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.
You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

1hadhq wrote:1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.

If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

1hadhq wrote:Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.
Tau trust Kroot so much that one was made a general of the Tau army (Angkor Prok). On the other side, they know that Kroot have a hidden agenda and fight for others (which included tau enemies like Orks and Chaos), so not trusting in absolute Kroot loyalty is reasonable.

Kroothawk wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.
You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

1hadhq wrote:1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.

If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

1hadhq wrote:Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.
Tau trust Kroot so much that one was made a general of the Tau army (Angkor Prok). On the other side, they know that Kroot have a hidden agenda and fight for others (which included tau enemies like Orks and Chaos), so not trusting in absolute Kroot loyalty is reasonable.

Ok well you never prove anything wrong you just blatantly disagree. This is the first time i have seen you cite anything but the codex. Codex's are informative but they always give their army a glowing reputation. You need to look past your blind love of the Tau and see that they are just as evil as anyone or anything else. The fact that you sit here and type away how amazingly good the tau are even though you have like 4 people telling you the Ethereals are controlling them. Cite all you want we have obviously read this in multiple places.
Also, im not rooting for just my faction, I love the Imperial Guard. So your wrong..... again.

I wouldn't say the Tau are as evil as everyone else. They are least evil. Just saying they are not 100% good. And if they are 100% good.... that's bad.

xXSir MontyXx wrote: Codex's are informative but they always give their army a glowing reputation. You need to look past your blind love of the Tau and see that they are just as evil as anyone or anything else. The fact that you sit here and type away how amazingly good the tau are even though you have like 4 people telling you the Ethereals are controlling them.

Let's just agree that your view on Tau is not compatible with what the Tau Codex and its authors say.
If a Tau haters view on Tau is in contradiction to the Codex, then obviously the Codex and its authors must be wrong

A freind of mine starting to play tau, he intends to model a Tau Ethereal as Emperor Palpatine.

I think the tau are morally ambivalent, I think its the ethereals that make them into communistic mass murderers. The Tau expansions were all at the behest of the Ethereals, the rail rifles being pushed into early use despite being lethally unstable to the user was due to the Ethereals.

sigh, I'm going to let you handle that last one Kroothawk.

Kroothawk wrote:
If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

So you stop posting crap if we find it trolling, now?
As far as I am concerned, nothing was made up.
Should I bother to post tons of quotes to counter your outdated irrelevant snippet you love so much?
I simply don't need to. As obviously GW themselves decided to move on with Tau fluff. You don't like to keep up, fine. Stick with your superfriends in space X2
as long as you want, but never expect anyone to accept your pre-first-Tau-codex view as relevant in 5th ed.

Kroothawk wrote:
BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

If youre so clever as you believe, why don't you go find the pics of the thread where people posted their shelves?
Rest assured those books standing there were read, not just looked for pictures inside, you know.
Funnily , we have to buy another book, since Kroothawk can't use the quote function.

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

Your assumptions are false.
Incoming poll....
BTW, GW had to change things when they moved on from small race located in a single system to expanding new upstart empire...

Kroothawk wrote:
Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.

Tau strategy does not include disposable lives of Tau, yes.

Kroothawk wrote:
If a Tau haters view on Tau is in contradiction to the Codex, then obviously the Codex and its authors must be wrong

So if the , "tau-haters", view the Tau like the codices do, the fanboy is wrong when he contradicts his own codex.
Finally, you admit where you stand. Nice attempt to twist facts, sadly you fail again.

whoa, take a deep breath man. It's just a game.

I think the views of good and evil are very much human ideas. eherals could see their actions as very 'good' or 'evil' but we will only see what we think. Key word think. That’s the problem with humanity as apposed to the tau empire. We think and act on our thoughts. Tau or kroot or vespid might not act on their thoughts because their reasoning says that is of the advantage of the community as a whole to live with it. Think of bees in a hive. They will come out and sacrifice themselves if the hive is disturbed. A human would not jump to sacrifice him/herself. the idealistics are likely to be compleatly diffrent. It might not even be that the tau need the pheromones to stay happy. they might find that they a naturaly suited to working in a chase. vispid would find this perfict aswell as they are insectoid and likely worked in a hive like system aswell. With the exception of a few radicals (farsight) they might only use pheromones to bring the public to order in events such as rallys ect.



lol. I take theroy of knowlage

Every race has elements of mary-sue in it (the hypocrisy is mind-boggling if you're an IoM fan)

Retribution wrote:Every race has elements of mary-sue in it (the hypocrisy is mind-boggling if you're an IoM fan)

Are you trying to say The Imperium is Mary Sueish? The most brutal. horrible place ever conceived to live for humans since Orwell's 1984? Maybe you have the term mary sue confused with Dystopia?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Retribution wrote:Every race has elements of mary-sue in it (the hypocrisy is mind-boggling if you're an IoM fan)

Are you trying to say The Imperium is Mary Sueish? The most brutal. horrible place ever conceived to live for humans since Orwell's 1984? Maybe you have the term mary sue confused with Dystopia?

Mary-sue in the sense that the IoM CAN NEVER LOSE because GW saiz so, that is mary-sue; not to mention the ungodly amount of Ultramarine jerk-off fluff, that's mary-sue

danp164 wrote:A freind of mine starting to play tau, he intends to model a Tau Ethereal as Emperor Palpatine.

I think the tau are morally ambivalent, I think its the ethereals that make them into communistic mass murderers. The Tau expansions were all at the behest of the Ethereals, the rail rifles being pushed into early use despite being lethally unstable to the user was due to the Ethereals.

Where is Kroothawk?
And I have to say, just by calling them communists you demonstrate your massive lack of understanding of the Tau, basic politics, and reasonable debate. At least try to come across as intelligent.

anon/rassilon wrote:

danp164 wrote:A freind of mine starting to play tau, he intends to model a Tau Ethereal as Emperor Palpatine.

I think the tau are morally ambivalent, I think its the ethereals that make them into communistic mass murderers. The Tau expansions were all at the behest of the Ethereals, the rail rifles being pushed into early use despite being lethally unstable to the user was due to the Ethereals.

Where is Kroothawk?
And I have to say, just by calling them communists you demonstrate your massive lack of understanding of the Tau, basic politics, and reasonable debate. At least try to come across as intelligent.

look at my signature

Tau are not utilitarians they're an oligarchy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau are not utilitarians they're an oligarchy.

Those terms aren't mutually exclusive

i guess not. I've never heard Utilitarian used to describe a goverment type tough.

Again... people are taking this too seriously.

Just prove your points people and debate.

A debate does not involve mocking others, just because you're right (or wrong) doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it.


ANYWHO!!!

Tau are not Communists!!!
I do believe this is at LEAST the third time LedaBot has had to pull out the "LOOK AT MY SIG" remark.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:i guess not. I've never heard Utilitarian used to describe a goverment type tough.

Because utilitarianism is a moral philosophy to live by, rather than a formal government structure; i've always likened the Tau to a Republican (Platonic) Oligarchy

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Tau are not Communists!!!
I do believe this is at LEAST the third time LedaBot has had to pull out the "LOOK AT MY SIG" remark.

You are spot on there

Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Yes, all races have their evil sides and it depends greatly on where you stand and whether or not its called evil. (Except Chaos, im sure they know they are evil and like it.)

My point is, that I have read in multiple threads that Ethereals use pheromones to control the Tau. You simply CANNOT stop all disagreement in a race, without means of control. it just cant happen. I have yet to see anything that disproves that the Ethereals do this.

Also from where we are sitting at our computers I have to say, most of us would agree mid control is evil. IMO

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Gonna have to argue otherwise, as per the following well though out paper/writeup.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6373&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=9d2b4e28b927b9f71dbf986b534d9e42&start=20

Scroll down until you find it, but in short the tau are:

A Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

They aren't just an oligarchy, or anything else. It's more complex than just one word.

Oh yea and don't hate on the paper just because it's from a tau site. The guy provides excellent documentation for his claims.

juraigamer wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Gonna have to argue otherwise, as per the following well though out paper/writeup.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6373&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=9d2b4e28b927b9f71dbf986b534d9e42&start=20

Scroll down until you find it, but in short the tau are:

A Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

They aren't just an oligarchy, or anything else. It's more complex than just one word.

Oh yea and don't hate on the paper just because it's from a tau site. The guy provides excellent documentation for his claims.

And now i will update my sig

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Utilitarianism is simply putting the greatest good for the greatest amount of people above all else, which, in a nut-shell, is the "Greater Good" itself; or putting the many above the few, so to say

A Platonic Republic, a state ruled by Philosopher kings (Ethereals), defended by warriors (Fire Warriors), and built by a labor class (Earth)

juraigamer wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Gonna have to argue otherwise, as per the following well though out paper/writeup.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6373&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=9d2b4e28b927b9f71dbf986b534d9e42&start=20

Scroll down until you find it, but in short the tau are:

A Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

They aren't just an oligarchy, or anything else. It's more complex than just one word.

Oh yea and don't hate on the paper just because it's from a tau site. The guy provides excellent documentation for his claims.

juraigamer wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Gonna have to argue otherwise, as per the following well though out paper/writeup.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6373&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=9d2b4e28b927b9f71dbf986b534d9e42&start=20

Scroll down until you find it, but in short the tau are:

A Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

They aren't just an oligarchy, or anything else. It's more complex than just one word.

Oh yea and don't hate on the paper just because it's from a tau site. The guy provides excellent documentation for his claims.

Ledabot wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Gonna have to argue otherwise, as per the following well though out paper/writeup.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6373&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=9d2b4e28b927b9f71dbf986b534d9e42&start=20

Scroll down until you find it, but in short the tau are:

A Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

They aren't just an oligarchy, or anything else. It's more complex than just one word.

Oh yea and don't hate on the paper just because it's from a tau site. The guy provides excellent documentation for his claims.

And now i will update my sig

Excellent! I agree with this assessment although i would throw in magic pixie dust into the mix too. As long as communism is out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Retribution wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Right, so I would say Tau are not Communists they're an Oligarchy. The case for Utilitarian would have to be made to me. Sounds about as acurate as communist.

As for Republican doesn't that involve democracy? There's no democracy in Tauland. In fact the tau resemble Iran's royal oligachy more than anything.

Utilitarianism is simply putting the greatest good for the greatest amount of people above all else, which, in a nut-shell, is the "Greater Good" itself; or putting the many above the few, so to say

A Platonic Republic, a state ruled by Philosopher kings (Ethereals), defended by warriors (Fire Warriors), and built by a labor class (Earth)

Do you intend utilitarianism to = Spockian "The Needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few"?

Pheromones must be involved you say? What about suicide bombers or Bushidō(in regard to sacrificing oneself for the emperor). You have to stop thinking of the tau as blue people with hooves. They are not human, and thus it is doubtful they even think like we do. And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved. None of those things are good reasons to hate a whole race....

Honestly, I like the tau cos' they are so different. They are not a fantasy cliché(at least none that i can think of) and get alot of hate due to the fact people haven't seen anything like them before. Oh yeah, and they have robot suits.... which are to Asian when compared to the other races robot suits.

Bossasaurus wrote: And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved.

Wizards you say? Hmmm why does this sound like an awesome idea? Tau WIZARD auxiliaries.

Bossasaurus wrote:Pheromones must be involved you say? What about suicide bombers or Bushidō(in regard to sacrificing oneself for the emperor). You have to stop thinking of the tau as blue people with hooves. They are not human, and thus it is doubtful they even think like we do. And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved. None of those things are good reasons to hate a whole race....

Honestly, I like the tau cos' they are so different. They are not a fantasy cliché(at least none that i can think of) and get alot of hate due to the fact people haven't seen anything like them before. Oh yeah, and they have robot suits.... which are to Asian when compared to the other races robot suits.

Anime robot suits....yes.....how crazy original.

This is getting old. Some people hate tau, some people love them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Bossasaurus wrote:Pheromones must be involved you say? What about suicide bombers or Bushidō(in regard to sacrificing oneself for the emperor). You have to stop thinking of the tau as blue people with hooves. They are not human, and thus it is doubtful they even think like we do. And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved. None of those things are good reasons to hate a whole race....

Honestly, I like the tau cos' they are so different. They are not a fantasy cliché(at least none that i can think of) and get alot of hate due to the fact people haven't seen anything like them before. Oh yeah, and they have robot suits.... which are to Asian when compared to the other races robot suits.

Anime robot suits....yes.....how crazy original.

They provide more alien variety in a universe that is quite lacking in that regard, no need to be a jerk about it

@KamikazeCanuck The suits are anime(to an extent). Thats what i was implying. They are not incredibly anime, just they are high tech mechanical exo suits. Unfortunately, we tend to only see these suits in anime so thus the 'tau were made for anime fanboys' line. Japanese influences are present in the tau, so 'mecha' seem somewhat logical.

Annoying racist peoples, and why do people dislike anime anyway. I don’t watch it but what’s so bad about it, apart from the different language, and just so everybody knows, I started tau because of the XV25 suits, not the big 'anime' XV8 suits.

Retribution wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Bossasaurus wrote:Pheromones must be involved you say? What about suicide bombers or Bushidō(in regard to sacrificing oneself for the emperor). You have to stop thinking of the tau as blue people with hooves. They are not human, and thus it is doubtful they even think like we do. And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved. None of those things are good reasons to hate a whole race....

Honestly, I like the tau cos' they are so different. They are not a fantasy cliché(at least none that i can think of) and get alot of hate due to the fact people haven't seen anything like them before. Oh yeah, and they have robot suits.... which are to Asian when compared to the other races robot suits.

Anime robot suits....yes.....how crazy original.

They provide more alien variety in a universe that is quite lacking in that regard, no need to be a jerk about it

Bossasaurus wrote:@KamikazeCanuck The suits are anime(to an extent). Thats what i was implying. They are not incredibly anime, just they are high tech mechanical exo suits. Unfortunately, we tend to only see these suits in anime so thus the 'tau were made for anime fanboys' line. Japanese influences are present in the tau, so 'mecha' seem somewhat logical.

Don't put words in my mouth. Retribution said "people haven't seen anything like them before." to which I'm replying yes actually we have. Anime has been known to have a robot suit or two.

agean, whats with the anime hate?

I don't like anime at all. I mean i liked death note, but that was it. I like tau, because of the visual look and how different they are from all the other races. Heh, but i'm a heretic at heart.

I like anime when its good. I liked Death Note a lot too but I haven't seen the anime just the live action one.

Imo its the only anime worth watching. All the other ones seem to have the same plot.

what i can gather is you dont hate anime (much) but you hate tau because it looks like anime. What can i say about this. I cant think of the word.

I think the word you're looking for is "hypocrite"
But what do i know

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Retribution wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Bossasaurus wrote:Pheromones must be involved you say? What about suicide bombers or Bushidō(in regard to sacrificing oneself for the emperor). You have to stop thinking of the tau as blue people with hooves. They are not human, and thus it is doubtful they even think like we do. And anyhow, who cares if Pheromones, or mind control or even wizards were involved. None of those things are good reasons to hate a whole race....

Honestly, I like the tau cos' they are so different. They are not a fantasy cliché(at least none that i can think of) and get alot of hate due to the fact people haven't seen anything like them before. Oh yeah, and they have robot suits.... which are to Asian when compared to the other races robot suits.

Anime robot suits....yes.....how crazy original.

They provide more alien variety in a universe that is quite lacking in that regard, no need to be a jerk about it

Bossasaurus wrote:@KamikazeCanuck The suits are anime(to an extent). Thats what i was implying. They are not incredibly anime, just they are high tech mechanical exo suits. Unfortunately, we tend to only see these suits in anime so thus the 'tau were made for anime fanboys' line. Japanese influences are present in the tau, so 'mecha' seem somewhat logical.

Don't put words in my mouth. Retribution said "people haven't seen anything like them before." to which I'm replying yes actually we have. Anime has been known to have a robot suit or two.

I said what? I'm not sure how you got that from my posts...If anything i'd say the Tau's conception of battlesuits is more similar to Heavy Gear than any run-of-the-mill OTT anime

We seem to have taken this topic as far as it can go.

Locking thread.