Mr Nobody wrote:I don't think the tau have technology that equals the tau, and I believe that their technology is close to the imperium's. The reason tau advanced so quickly is because, by their , they adapt quickly, becoming vastly different when isolated long enough from other tau. This carried over to society as well, but this was also because the ethereals brought almost total peace, allowing them to advance without setbacks like humanity did.

The tau do have some plot holes, which I believe can be easily filled with some effort, and tau are an effort to bring something that isn't old, beaten, evil or has a crappy life.

(I'm not a tau fanboy).

IvanTih wrote:
THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

Grey Templar wrote:the biggest problem with the T'au is

1) GW has written their Tech in a way as to block them into a corner. their method of FTL/half-warp jump has meant they can't leave their current area of space.

Retribution wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the biggest problem with the T'au is

1) GW has written their Tech in a way as to block them into a corner. their method of FTL/half-warp jump has meant they can't leave their current area of space.

That can be fixed by having the Tau piggyback with an allied warp-capable race, but i don't see them expanding drastically anytime soon

Grey Templar wrote:

Retribution wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the biggest problem with the T'au is

1) GW has written their Tech in a way as to block them into a corner. their method of FTL/half-warp jump has meant they can't leave their current area of space.

That can be fixed by having the Tau piggyback with an allied warp-capable race, but i don't see them expanding drastically anytime soon

yes, but GW is known for ignoring codexs for loooong periods of time.









prehaps the T'au are the new DE


all T'au players

learn to use your codex well

you shall have it for the next 12 years

Exopheric wrote:Humans may be an "elder race" but they've been largely stagnant/losing ground technologically for about 10,000 years, AFTER losing 90% of their tech support database in the Age of Strife. perhaps aside from the limited FTL, Tau are about where humans hypothetically would have been in the year 5100. They are nowhere near the Eldar.

Besides, there are hints that they've been manipulated from the start by a more advanced species.

Nurglitch wrote:In an Imperium spanning an entire galaxy, consisting of about 1 million worlds at any given time, and with around 10,000 years of history, one can imagine that technology advances and regresses all the time in the Imperium.

Speaking of, I don't suppose the original poster can give us all the low-down on how technological advancement is supposed to go? Because it's pretty easy to find rates of technological advancement to be incredible if you don't understand what technology is, and how it advances.

Mordoskul wrote:Consider that the Imperium has actually branded Progress as a FALSE GOD.

Nurglitch wrote:

Mordoskul wrote:Consider that the Imperium has actually branded Progress as a FALSE GOD.

Citation needed.

Retribution wrote:40k in general is an affront to logic; in a universe with Space Jesus and Space Elves you're completely thrown off by the time-span in which a species advanced technologically

Avatar 720 wrote:Ivan, you forget that the Tau world was enclosed in a Warp storm, and that the Warp doesn't treat time normally. A Space Marine Battle Barge could enter the warp, 10 minutes could pass inside it, and they could exit hundreds of years into the future.

IvanTih wrote:I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

That Warp strom argument won't work because the planet has to be inside the warp for the effect.

LeetBix wrote:The whole reason (ok maybs just a bit of it) for GW's ridiculous fluff for the tau's rapid advancement was because they were trying to tap into the eastern market.

Tau were supposed to basically be chasing after eastern ideals of unity and strength through that unity yadda yadda yadda.

Point is the weren't really thinking about fluff sensibilities when they made the tau fluff just more dollar dollar dollar.

Tekeino wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

And i hate Imperium fanboys who think that a rapidly evolving race isnt possible and implies that all of the rest of 40k is logical. OMG ORKS ARE GIANT LIVING MUSHROOMS OH NO FUNGUS CANT BE HUMANOID. NOT LOGICAL.

Im not even a tau fanboy, but i think the only possible objective of topics like this is to annoy.

Also, you claim that tau are illogical because they managed to accomplish more in 6k years then humans and eldar. Maybe they are more focused, maybe they are smarter there doesnt seem to be much evidence to point to the fact that humans are more or even as intellegent. And Eldar are not solely on "advancing the greater good" like tau are, Eldar have art and music as well as perfecting their skills.

IvanTih wrote:My small rant.

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of slowed children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

Avatar 720 wrote:

That Warp strom argument won't work because the planet has to be inside the warp for the effect.

The world was surrounded by a warp storm, T'au was at the centre of it as it swirled around the planet, making it completely inaccessible. I want to know where you're getting the information regarding how the warp and warp storms work, because you seem to know more than any of us about it.

Nowhere does it state that being engulfed by a warp storm does not place the engulfed planet under the warp's conditions. To me, it's safe to assume that a planet completely closed in by a warp storm will be affected by it.

Tau also survive because the Imperium has more pressing issues. The Imperium were forced to retreat from the Damocles Gulf due to the emergance of the Tyranids, a threat that is far greater than the Tau. The only other enemies the Tau have are Tyranids, Orks and Necrons if they happen to colonise or land on a tomb world and wake them up. The Imperium are more concerned with Tyranids and there are no recorded instances of Tau/(D)Eldar contact, nor Tau/Chaos, unless you count the Fire Warrior and DoW games. Cockiness won't get the Tau killed until the Imperium sees them a larger threat than they currently are, or a Tyranid Hive Fleet eats them/they get beaten down by a large WAAAGH!

Kilkrazy wrote:

IvanTih wrote:My small rant.

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of slowed children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

All of 40K is an affront to logic and common sense.

IvanTih wrote:Their technological advancment is very Sue because how do they manage to advance so much in 6k years while it took Humans and Eldar much more.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau.

Retribution wrote:

LeetBix wrote:The whole reason (ok maybs just a bit of it) for GW's ridiculous fluff for the tau's rapid advancement was because they were trying to tap into the eastern market.

Tau were supposed to basically be chasing after eastern ideals of unity and strength through that unity yadda yadda yadda.

Point is the weren't really thinking about fluff sensibilities when they made the tau fluff just more dollar dollar dollar.

Except for the fact that they come off as more of a realized version of Plato's Republic than anything

agnosto wrote:Want to know how the Tau advanced so quickly? It's simple really. They stopped killing each other. While all the other races were running around their respective corners of the universe offing each other, the Tau were sitting quietly at home tinkering with their toys.

The oppposite is true for the Imperium. They decided to kill each other off and lost 1/2 their tech.

The moral? Join the greater good, we'll send an ethereal out to talk to you and don't worry about the pheromones.

IvanTih wrote:Then you ignore Eldar who had plenty of time to advance,they did the same thing and had far longer time to do it than 6k years that Tau had.
Also advances have been made from Horus Heresy and plenty of them,new ship classes,better las weapons,improved Lance and Plasma weapons,planet Tesla is full of experimental technology,experimental torpedoes from Exectuion Hour etc....

Grey Templar wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:In an Imperium spanning an entire galaxy, consisting of about 1 million worlds at any given time, and with around 10,000 years of history, one can imagine that technology advances and regresses all the time in the Imperium.

Speaking of, I don't suppose the original poster can give us all the low-down on how technological advancement is supposed to go? Because it's pretty easy to find rates of technological advancement to be incredible if you don't understand what technology is, and how it advances.

when you think about it, Advanced Tech is just putting old, simpler, tech together in new and interesting ways

the Admech has all the tech right in front of them, they just have to fit everything back together. it's the most nightmarishly complex jigsaw puzzle ever and the pieces are scattered all over the table, floor, front yard, and down the kitchin sink.

agnosto wrote:
The Tau learn from each race they encounter.

1hadhq wrote:

agnosto wrote:
The Tau learn from each race they encounter.

No.They don't.

Ran into almost every other race and got their asses kicked all the time.
Doesn't sound like a learning process.

IvanTih wrote:My small rant.

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of slowed children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

agnosto wrote:

Not sure about the butt-kicking since they destroyed hive fleet Gorgon (Codex: Tyranids p. 18-21), there's that whole book about Tau beating on IG (Imperial Armour III) and Farsight has kicked the Orks around quite a bit but you go ahead and believe what you want to.

Kroothawk wrote:It took humans 6000 years to get from a primitive to a high tech space faring civiization. That's what history tells us (well, some of us )
It took Tau 6000 years to get from primitive civilizations to high tech space faring species.
That is obviousy totally overpowered, Mary Sue and unfair!

Wait, this is the monthly "I hate Tau" thread, where facts and logical reasoning are not welcome, so forget about that!

agnosto wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

agnosto wrote:
The Tau learn from each race they encounter.

No.They don't.

Ran into almost every other race and got their asses kicked all the time.
Doesn't sound like a learning process.

Well, they learned that Tyranids like to eat them and Orks like to kill them, it's a learning process; they learned which races to shoot on sight.

Not sure about the butt-kicking since they destroyed hive fleet Gorgon (Codex: Tyranids p. 18-21), there's that whole book about Tau beating on IG (Imperial Armour III) and Farsight has kicked the Orks around quite a bit but you go ahead and believe what you want to.

You see planets are directly affect by the warp storm if the storm directly touches them and that usually ends bad for the life living there(it mutates and then the planets get sucked into the warp or it turns to Daemon world).

Mustela wrote:I don't like Tau because they have a 40K army, and they are so tiny, they are pointless from the bigger picture - So why are they even an army? Especially when there are much cooler, much more relevant, things that GW could make (CODEX: Mechanicus?).

Oh yeah, and all my friends play them.

+Ultramr is WAAAAAYYYYY bigger than the Tau empire on the map in the rulebook.
+They can't last forever - no psykers means communications issues
+No warp drives - that'll give any significant expansion a real roadblock
+If they recruit psykers from other races, they just got themselves a free daemon portal.

Shaman wrote:

Retribution wrote:40k in general is an affront to logic; in a universe with Space Jesus and Space Elves you're completely thrown off by the time-span in which a species advanced technologically

I read space elves as Space Elvis. And I was thinking who is meant to be space elvis? Answer me that dakka.


Also it seems like OP is just jealous of the codex saying they are so advanced.

The reason I don't like tau is I got sick of how they play.. (used to have them in 4th)

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pretty pointless game eh? Tau are supposed to fill the giant gap where the honorable species from every other sci-fi thing ever went.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pretty pointless game eh? Tau are supposed to fill the giant gap where the honorable species from every other sci-fi thing ever went.

Honorable? The Tau? I don't think that "Join us or die" is very honorable.

Here's a standard expansion of the Tau Empire:

Tau: Hello, new world! Would you like to join our empire for the Greater Good? We'll treat you as second-rate citizens, use your military as cannon fodder for our superior military and guns, and force you to help us make better technology by taking yours! All for the Greater Good! Would you like to join us?
Planet: No. Go away now.
Tau: Fine... then we'll do this the hard way.
**Tau invasion fleet comes in and takes over. Native population becomes second-rate citizens. Laws for population control take place. Majority of people become labor force. Military becomes cannon fodder for Tau Fire Caste. Any and all useful technology is taken away and used by the Tau for future conquests. All for the "Greater Good."**

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't find socialism (or communism, whatever you want to call it) very honorable. Because that is what the Tau are: Socialists. In Space. They say "Everyone is equal." Here is how it really is: "Everyone is equal. The Tau are just more equal. And the Ethereals are even more equal." Also, their policy for expansion is "Join us or die" pretty much.

Yes, I will admit that the Tau are unified unlike the Imperium, and maybe even a little more advanced than the Imperium (please don't kill me, Imperial fanboys. I'm on your side [sorta]). But NO race in all of 40k is truly honorable. None. Not even the Tau and their so-called "Greater Good." If you say no to what they want from you, they will pick up their rifle and shoot you in between the eyes, just like every other race in all of Warhammer 40,000. All for the "Greater Good."

Citations? Tau codex, Dawn of War (yes I use that as a citation. I consider that game to be fluff) tau ending, various books with the Tau in them (I do not remember specific names so please do not ask me for them), a lot of the Tau Empire fluff.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I know next to nothing about the Tau, so correct me if im wrong. If it isnt mentioned how they advanced to their present age of tech, is it possible they found some old tech from the Imperium or Eldar? Then fiddled with it and ended up improving it? Plz correct me if im wrong cuz I have a felling that it is explained somewhere and I havent read it yet.

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pritty pointless game eh. tau are serposed to fill the giant gap filled were the honorable species from every other si-fi thing ever went.

Avatar 720 wrote:

You see planets are directly affect by the warp storm if the storm directly touches them and that usually ends bad for the life living there(it mutates and then the planets get sucked into the warp or it turns to Daemon world).

Again with all the warp storm knowledge nobody else seems to have. I'd love to know your reference for this.

IvanTih wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I know next to nothing about the Tau, so correct me if im wrong. If it isnt mentioned how they advanced to their present age of tech, is it possible they found some old tech from the Imperium or Eldar? Then fiddled with it and ended up improving it? Plz correct me if im wrong cuz I have a felling that it is explained somewhere and I havent read it yet.

That's not correct,except for their FTL they have found some ship and managed to create the FTL drive from the ship's FTL drive.
They're not more advanced than them,they are small and thus every soldier can get high-end gear,Imperium on the other hand prefers to use simplier tech.
Take Lasgun for example,it's simple,ammo is easy to find same matters for replacment parts.
Pulse rifles are on contrary harder to replace and their ammo is harder to replace.
Plus Tau don't have anything like Conversion Beamer or the Warp technologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pritty pointless game eh. tau are serposed to fill the giant gap filled were the honorable species from every other si-fi thing ever went.

They are evil,Sons of Dorn mentions Tau commiting genocide,then we have planet Nimbosa from Planetstrike where Tau forces also commit genocide which prompts crusade in which SM kick their ass and would continiue soo if they haven't been recalled,in Deathwatch RPG we have concetration camps,people disapearing for saying something wrong etc....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:

You see planets are directly affect by the warp storm if the storm directly touches them and that usually ends bad for the life living there(it mutates and then the planets get sucked into the warp or it turns to Daemon world).

Again with all the warp storm knowledge nobody else seems to have. I'd love to know your reference for this.

Remember Aurelia,the planet was directly touched by the warp storm and it was consumed by the warp.
Only when you're inside warp then the time dilation kicks in.
Their planet was surrounded was by the warp storm,but not touched by it otherwise the life on the planet would mutate or the planet would suffer the fate of Aurelia(also remember planet Medusa which was also consumed by the Warp storm).

Rubberanvil wrote:The Tau is facing an extinction without even knowing it with their caste system. It is one for the caste to be based on labor or politics where individuals transferred from one caste to another. It is borderline suicidal doing it by making each caste an almost biologically different sub-species.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.

IvanTih wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.

The Imperium isn't in such trouble.
They steamroll Tau,but they won't because they have better things to do,but if Tau continiue to expand then the Imperium will send a crusade(Sabbath Worlds crusade had 10,000 ships,imagine Tau facing that).

Ledabot wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.

The Imperium isn't in such trouble.
They steamroll Tau,but they won't because they have better things to do,but if Tau continiue to expand then the Imperium will send a crusade(Sabbath Worlds crusade had 10,000 ships,imagine Tau facing that).

Thats right. both of you. the imperium could steamroll the tau, but they cant afford to. removing recorces on one front to squidge the tau would mean an incersion from another race. they are a perfict example of how limited the imperiums resources are and how bad the're in the poo,

Ledabot wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.

The Imperium isn't in such trouble.
They steamroll Tau,but they won't because they have better things to do,but if Tau continiue to expand then the Imperium will send a crusade(Sabbath Worlds crusade had 10,000 ships,imagine Tau facing that).

Thats right. both of you. the imperium could steamroll the tau, but they cant afford to. removing recorces on one front to squidge the tau would mean an incersion from another race. they are a perfict example of how limited the imperiums resources are and how bad the're in the poo,

IvanTih wrote:My small rant.

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of slowed children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember: AI = tech heresy of the highest order!

As I said: incremental upgrades.

Nothing NEW, totally new, has been created.

BTW: just because they had cloaks before Tau doesnt mean they still can cloak - in fact they cant. Nemesis showed just how much has been lost - even around the Great Crusade.

This is why most of the AdMechs drive is in rediscovering STCs - they simply dont understand the technology as well as they would like.

4M2A wrote:The problem isn't only they don't understand but that they don't want to.

If they looked at the technology they have as machines to be examined rather than holy items, they could relearn how to invent.

Ledabot wrote:and btw

TAU ARE NOT COMMUNISTS. THEY ARE UTLITARIALSTS!!!

thats one of my fave lines

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Ya the Tau advancement seems like the human advancement in the Mass Effect fluff. We FINALY got to mars and we found super advanced tech wich we replicated. That would make sense for the Tau story i think.

punkow wrote:Don't offend comrade stalin! Or Superman the red son will punish you! eheh
Anyway guys... there isn't anything in tau ideology of greater good even far comparable to communism (I know it, read all Marx (yes, even Das Kapital), Lenin, Bucharin and even a little bit of Planned economy principles for my last exam).

They're more similar to the corporativist Italian fascist state, without all the racist gak, moved in a pan-alien view ( something like HiroHito japan panasiatism)... after all they're Anime mecha's Fans

Anyway let's not talk about politics ( I love to talk about politics so this makes me suffer) ... let's talk about how much Tau sucks!!!

Grey Templar wrote:
have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

Medium of Death wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Um. I think that the "couldn't pull it off, yet did" is the whole point of the backstory.

Tau advanced unnaturally fast as a civilization and in their technology; the Codex stresses that point explicity. Add to that the convenient, unnatural warpstorm. Later the sudden appareance of the Etheral with a Tau-controling organ from half a galaxy away, etc.. , etc.. , . The Codex is choke-full of that.. and on purpose.

The whole point of the Tau background is that it isn't natural evolution but that "someone" or "somethings" been tinkering with them. GW could've just made them an old civilization. They purposfully added the "paradox" or "riddle" of their rapid advancement that you complain about to the Tau Background as a little "mystery" to fuel some grimdark speculation that would be different to "the just evolved like any other civilization".

Ledabot wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
ChaosGalvatron wrote:
Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.


The Imperium isn't in such trouble.
They steamroll Tau,but they won't because they have better things to do,but if Tau continiue to expand then the Imperium will send a crusade(Sabbath Worlds crusade had 10,000 ships,imagine Tau facing that).


Thats right. both of you. the imperium could steamroll the tau, but they cant afford to. removing recorces on one front to squidge the tau would mean an incersion from another race. they are a perfict example of how limited the imperiums resources are and how bad the're in the poo,

Actually that says how large and important are Tyranid and Chaos incursions.
The Imperium just doesn't care for Tau right now.

have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

What? What they do in Deathwatch?

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

What? What they do in Deathwatch?

The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.

Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.

The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.

Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

Gee would that be the same Deathwatch RPG that was made by a company which isn't even a subsidiary of GW? The same Deathwatch RPG that GW has never claimed is official cannon.

And for those who use the Dawn of War games as fluff how do you explain that the differant factions have differant versions of what happened which if you consider it fluff means that all of it happened and by extension none of it did.

I agree that the Tau have a Grim-dark side to them, every race does. But the extent has not officially been shown as there is just not enough official fluff behind them.

And for those who say that the Tau and Imperium are equal in technology it's just the Tau are better at applying it across a wider area then the Imperium. I hate to break it to you but that equals more advanced technology. The ability to miniaturise and diversify your technology requires new processes and new techniques which the Tau have done and is the key to advanced technology. Yes the Imperium miniaturised forms of their technology but they are hardly produced on a mass scale and are often ancient devices. So the Imperium has variants of Bolter shell? ok well with the exception of Rail guns the Tau have moved past solid round projectiles.

Sure the old computers that filled entire rooms can still be called computers the same way that modern day laptops can be called computers. But does that mean that the technology is equal? No.

If you really want to know which race has the best technology it is the Orks simply because they have everyones technology.

Gee would that be the same Deathwatch RPG that was made by a company which isn't even a subsidiary of GW? The same Deathwatch RPG that GW has never claimed is official cannon.

And for those who use the Dawn of War games as fluff how do you explain that the differant factions have differant versions of what happened which if you consider it fluff means that all of it happened and by extension none of it did.

I agree that the Tau have a Grim-dark side to them, every race does. But the extent has not officially been shown as there is just not enough official fluff behind them.

And for those who say that the Tau and Imperium are equal in technology it's just the Tau are better at applying it across a wider area then the Imperium. I hate to break it to you but that equals more advanced technology. The ability to miniaturise and diversify your technology requires new processes and new techniques which the Tau have done and is the key to advanced technology. Yes the Imperium miniaturised forms of their technology but they are hardly produced on a mass scale and are often ancient devices. So the Imperium has variants of Bolter shell? ok well with the exception of Rail guns the Tau have moved past solid round projectiles.

Sure the old computers that filled entire rooms can still be called computers the same way that modern day laptops can be called computers. But does that mean that the technology is equal? No.

If you really want to know which race has the best technology it is the Orks simply because they have everyones technology.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I understand that, what I am saying is that they are advanced for their age, and their stuff does not seem easy to produce, wwwwwaaaaayyyyy to much personal tech for it to be mass produced like the IoM does. Im on your side haha the Tau are not my favorite army at all. btw mass production is the best when you can get it right. (Like the IoM)

xXSir MontyXx wrote:In comparison to all the other races, no. For the time that they have been a space faring recognized empire by the rest of the 40k universe. They have advanced very quickly, to quickly. This is GW's plan though so its ok, cuz I know any race could plow through them if they felt like it.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pretty pointless game eh? Tau are supposed to fill the giant gap where the honorable species from every other sci-fi thing ever went.

Honorable? The Tau? I don't think that "Join us or die" is very honorable.

Here's a standard expansion of the Tau Empire:

Tau: Hello, new world! Would you like to join our empire for the Greater Good? We'll treat you as second-rate citizens, use your military as cannon fodder for our superior military and guns, and force you to help us make better technology by taking yours! All for the Greater Good! Would you like to join us?
Planet: No. Go away now.
Tau: Fine... then we'll do this the hard way.
**Tau invasion fleet comes in and takes over. Native population becomes second-rate citizens. Laws for population control take place. Majority of people become labor force. Military becomes cannon fodder for Tau Fire Caste. Any and all useful technology is taken away and used by the Tau for future conquests. All for the "Greater Good."**

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't find socialism (or communism, whatever you want to call it) very honorable. Because that is what the Tau are: Socialists. In Space. They say "Everyone is equal." Here is how it really is: "Everyone is equal. The Tau are just more equal. And the Ethereals are even more equal." Also, their policy for expansion is "Join us or die" pretty much.

Yes, I will admit that the Tau are unified unlike the Imperium, and maybe even a little more advanced than the Imperium (please don't kill me, Imperial fanboys. I'm on your side [sorta]). But NO race in all of 40k is truly honorable. None. Not even the Tau and their so-called "Greater Good." If you say no to what they want from you, they will pick up their rifle and shoot you in between the eyes, just like every other race in all of Warhammer 40,000. All for the "Greater Good."

Citations? Tau codex, Dawn of War (yes I use that as a citation. I consider that game to be fluff) tau ending, various books with the Tau in them (I do not remember specific names so please do not ask me for them), a lot of the Tau Empire fluff.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

"Join us or die" is way better than "Die". Also, people who join the Tau do get some rights and stuff, and usually have a better life than say, a Hive City.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof.

Ground combat: We don't know. Again hypervelocity and hypersonic have both been used to describe them, but that just tells us they'd be at least as fast, or faster than modern tank weapons (close to or over several km/s at least.) It could be faster, but I will point out speed is not neccesaril a be all, end-all as far as penetration goes (indeed hypervelocity impacts can introduce the possibility of cratering, which while increasing damage redues penetration and penetration typically matters alot for tank guns.)

In the case of the Hammerhead railgun specifically, it is consistnetly noted to perform better than conventional battle cannon (but not neccesarily Vanquisher cannon, and is ins ome ways outperformed by Earthshakers) and be highly effective at penetrating Russ armor. I tend not to read too deeply into the "punch a hole in and liquify everything inside it" since its quite possible that the physics behind that is unrealistic (we'd be talking a massive shockwave to do it, and prboabl knocking the tank around with some violent accelerations.)

I'm not even going to touch on game mechanics.

Andy Hoare: Like alot of 40K writers, he has his good moments and bad moments. the Rogue trader novels are his bad moments. Basically his version of Soul Drinkers. HE does write decent stuff though (Hunt for Voldorius was mentioned, and he had a hand in the 13th Black Crusade and Tactica Imperialis big books, which were both interesting reading. And he's written some decent short stories like Hunter, Prey.) Graham McNeill has Honsou and "Dead Sky, Black Sun" to his name. Abnett has his own lackluster showings (Legion, Straight Silver, etc.) Goto has Eldar Prophecy (which is to date the worst 40K novel I've read.) and there is of course Ben "liquid plasma" Counter who is consistently hit and miss.

Anyhow, the Rogue Trader novels have their annoyances, but then again lots of novels do (I get tird of Abnett making laser bullet weapons.)

Tau tactics and technology: And in particular how it stacks up to the Imperium, can be summed up in one word. Consistency. That is their big edge ove the Imperium really. It's not so much that they are all-around better, per se (because they aren't), its that they manage to standardize their tech and gear better, and to apply it more consistently. They are more unified, and more focused, and tend not to be as distracted as the Imperium is (partly a result of how they are organized, partly because of their small size, and partly because they're on the ass end of nowhere and tend to only catch the backlash from other major powers conflicts.) Their sensitivity to causalties (much like what the US has with its citizen soldiers) will lead to more upteching (pursuant to tactics and presumably logistics.) Also, your average Fire Warrior is probably more in line with a Storm Trooper, while auxiliaries are either specialists or the more expendable grunts (and aren't neccesarily as well teched, but could be more numerous.) Of course, Guard "quality" varies dramatically as well (logistics, planet of origin, standing/importance of the tithe, etc.)

Tau tech can, I suspect, vary quite a bit in performance, which may account for the variable performance. Tau armor could be upgraded by stronger plates (and thus be as good as flak or better depending on how configured) but this may have drawbacks (greater weight, which reduces mobility.) In some cases the Tau probably want greater protection, but not in all cases.

Pulse weapons probably have similar issues. It is unlikely there is just ONE kind of pulse weapon, any more than there is one kind of assautl rifle, or lasgun, or bolter. (and I mean more than just the "pulse rifle and pulse carbine.) We know pulse rifles as a rule are better than lasguns at least in terms of per shot firepower and range, but that doesn't mean "all around" better. Range will mean that they either behave like a semi-auto rifle (aimed shots) or as a machine gun (spray and pray.)

The former is more along the lines of Tau tactics. Setting may also play a role in firepower (It isn't impossible for a pulse weapon to exceed the destructive output of a bolter, although quanitfying the comparison is a bit complex methinks.) but it needn't apply in all cases (Arguably, it doesn't. hell, Bolter firepower can vary quite a bit on its own, so better has to be reflected in that context as well.)

Tactics wise, again consistecny seems to matter. The Imperium doesnt really have a defined set of tactics despite what some claim (either way) but they embrace a little bit of everything. This is a bit of a problem, since they tend to leave it up to individual commanders to decide, and this can create wildly varying effects (from intelligent fighting to not so intelligent "choke them with our numbers" Brannigan-style.) The Imperium can (to an extent) afford this though, since they are a large, industrious empire. The Tau are industrious, but they aren't numerous, and their tactics must reflect this. I suspect alot of the earlier "codex" thinking I have commented on from the previous Tau Codexes are their version of the "tactica Imperialis/Uplifting Primer/Munitorum guidelines" bits.. basically thats "theoretical" stuff laid down by their adminstration. In practice, like with the Imperium, capability can vary according to the leader they have (Taros illustrates this nicely) since some Commanders clearly are brilliant and others, less so. The "less so" however will beneift from a more consistent (and cautious) doctrine that emphasize mobility and firepower (which their tech base can support, to an extent), so any shortcomings are liekly mitigated (assuming numbers aren't a factor.)

Later stuff to come out so far in 5th edition (Planetstrike and such) have hinted the Tau are proving more willing to adopt their basic tactics (as laid down in earlier codexes) to other concepts - they follow the "abandoning territory no matter what" philosohpy alot less blindly, for example. They still hate static warfare, and probably arne't as good at it, but they will do it if they NEED to (and still incoroprate the elements of their other doctrines if they can.)

You also have to remember that being on the edge of the galaxy, they tend to be hard to reach by many conventional powers and they also face a huge logistical advantage compared to others (say the Imperium, especialyl since the Astronomican problems cropped up with the edges of the Empire.) Supply lines (and information) have often been a problem the Imperium faces in fighting the tau, and location plays a huge role in that.

As an aside, I dont draw any particular significance from stuff about the tau "sterilizing" humans - I now expect the tau to contain their own share of donkey-caves like the Imperium does. The Imperium has good and bad people too.

Lasgun/bolter/Hellgun vs Pulse rifle
The biggest advantages (as far as we know evidence wise) that the Lasguns will have will be reliability and durability, sheer versatility, and [possibly] rate of fire and ammo. The first is a no-brainer, given how easy to build and repair lasguns can be. They also are doubtless easier to train folk on as far as usage and maintenance go. Versatility is not quite so obvious, and refers to the tendency for lasguns to encompass many different variants, to be modular (long las, or las carbines being modified lasguns, as well as long and short barreled lasguns, assault lasguns, etc.) and can have differing performance (power output, range, etc.) by something as simple as changing a barrel and sights (range/accuracy) or powerpack (using hotshots, which even normal lasgun can do.) But lasguns can have variable modes too (wide beam "flamethrower/shotgun" modes, like in Legion, or sustained piercing/cutting/slicing beams, as well as the thermal/explosive modes.) As far as Rate of fire goes? Lasgun ROF form a few shots a sec (uplifting primer) to tens/hundreds of shots a second (Blood Pact, Only in Death and 13th Legion novels, to name a few examples) and I've never heard of pulse weapons matching that. Ammo usage can also vary from as fwe as 40-50 shots per powerpack (depending on setting) to hundreds, whilst I havent heard pulse rifles being much more than the 40-50 shot category (agian setting matters, but still..)

Hellguns by extension ought to share the versatility and ammo/rate of fire advantage. They may be similiar in performance to bolters and pulse weapons though (As I said, it can depend on alot.

Bolters are phyiscal projectiles, so they have explosive eccect with kinetic effects to contend with. This could give them better penetration. (remember Space Marine bolters arguably can be anti-vehicle weapons consistently. I dont think the same can always be said of pulse rifles) Bolters though are basically meant to be fired by power armored troops, so they would lack alot of advantages wielded by anyone else (lacking stocks for one thing, but also targeter sights and similar.) And yes this is ignoring the whole "how bolters work" angle (which is "not how GW envisions them")

Orbital Bombardment While it is a huge asset, I DO have to point out that even if you disregard GT+ firepower for Imperial ships, the energy release of orbital bombardment can do Bad Things to the surface and climate of a planet in the long term. How is it going to effect climate and weather patterns to consistently inject kilotons or megatons of energy via bombardment (which we know the Imperium has done), especially over some of the longer and more protracted ground wars? (Of course that tends to be a central grimdark feature of 40K anyhow and often comes about from overuse of conventional artillery and gas/chemical weapons or bioweapons rather than just nukes. ) But it could still be a cause for concern on some worlds (say, Agri-worlds) but not others (the older and more populous Hive worlds)


Tau in general: I think its worth noting that we can distinguish between in and out universe at least when it comes to Tau "w anking." The tau by themselves are fine. Its the fanboys (And arguably this can include some authors, but then again that can be said of alot of factions in 40K too.. Goto seemed to hte the Eldar for example and there ar always the pro Space Marine authors who can be grating..) Its the fanboys who tend to elicit the most negative reactions when it comes to the tau. Personally I hate tau fanboys, but the tau themselves aren't too bad (tactics masturbation wise they've changed a bit with more recent editions too, which I'll touch on later.)

In universe the Tau surviving can be attributed to luck (which can be tangible, if weird. and it has been hinted tau survival has been deliberately contrived in universe by someone) and the fact they are way out on the ass end of nowhere (and thus either hard for other powers to crush, or end up conflicting with one of the larger powers like the Imperium, who often seem to provide a buffer to the tau.) This is counterbalanced by their combined arrogance and blind adherence to their manifest destin- err Greater Good, coupled with sheer naivety when it comes to the universe at large (Take Chaos for example. I dont know if they've actually admitted Chaos Gods, Chaos, and daemons exist yet. And as we know historically that is a recipe for disaster sooner or later, and the Tau having a minimal presence in the warp cannot wholly mitigate that.)

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Tau is gay because their plasmas dont overheat. The Imperium needs that gak

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

Are you saying he doesnt look trust worthy, cuz I think quite the opposite

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Ya maybe if the necrons decided to cuddle with the Tau after they had their way with them

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I think I may have seen that, cant remember. How are they alike?

That movie is essentially parody of the Independece day(not officially).
Aliens look like classical Marsians with advanced tech who want to conquer the Earth and their weakness are loud sounds,the film is from 1996 and it's funny.

IvanTih wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Ya maybe if the necrons decided to cuddle with the Tau after they had their way with them

That piece fluff reminds me of Mars Attacks film.

Back back back, back back!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ivan - you dont rate IA books as canon, but include in canon FFG books? Really?

Just because they HAVE them doesnt mean they UNDERSTAND them. There is a difference between running a production line and understanding how it works. Most people can operate a computer, can possibly even build one from basic components - but ask them to understand microcode, or how an FPU works, or how you deal with binary vs decimal numbver representations, and you would have a series of blank looks.

IoM have "better" plasma? By "better" do you mean 1/6 chance of harming the operator (top canon, gets hot!) or with prolonged use can explode, shredding a carapace armoured scout? (Sons of Dorn) You say they are only "rarely" used on higher settings, but canon disagrees with you...

The IoM is, on the whole, regressing technology wise. Old ships that they CANNOT replace are destroyed. Inferior replacements for key battle lines are made (ref: macharius as an inferior baneblade, some "inferior" russ knock offs on non mainline forgeworlds, and so on) and they are gradually losing knowledge.

Yes, they make advances. Incremental ones.

I wonder if eldar have the same gripe about the imperium when they were on the great crusade.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

Are you saying he doesnt look trust worthy, cuz I think quite the opposite

So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof

So do you want to provide proof that its not? I will gladly say im wrong if I am, but you cannot tell me that common sense doesnt dictate the a flak vest is harder to mass produce than watever it is Tau wear, and that a plasma rifle is less expensive than a LASGUN

about the production. You could say that IoM has Economies of scale on there side. that is, as more is produced, the cheeper it is do produce more. they dont have production anyware on the same scale. Tau i think went for the, lets serply or small number of troops with good guns as aposed to lets supply our large numbr of troops with no so good weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember: AI = tech heresy of the highest order!

As I said: incremental upgrades.

Nothing NEW, totally new, has been created.

BTW: just because they had cloaks before Tau doesnt mean they still can cloak - in fact they cant. Nemesis showed just how much has been lost - even around the Great Crusade.

This is why most of the AdMechs drive is in rediscovering STCs - they simply dont understand the technology as well as they would like.

IvanTih wrote:@xxSir
Excuse me,IOM has better plasma weaponry,better broadsides on ships(besides Tau suck in BFG) and they also have railguns.The biggest Tau fanboy is Andy Hoare who wrote fluff for Deathwatch RPG and those pile of shi* Rogue Trader novels(Tau wan* isn't his only sin,he also makes combat ranges extremly short and which are hundreds of kilometres while every other source tells us tens of thousand kilometres or more,he also ignores the fact that Imperium has railguns).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Back back back, back back!

Sry was that to far? My bad, still learning the ropes

Sry wont happen again, except the other one I have on this thread after that one, I apologize for that to.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Honorable? The Tau? I don't think that "Join us or die" is very honorable.

Here's a standard expansion of the Tau Empire:

Tau: Hello, new world! Would you like to join our empire for the Greater Good? We'll treat you as second-rate citizens, use your military as cannon fodder for our superior military and guns, and force you to help us make better technology by taking yours! All for the Greater Good! Would you like to join us?
Planet: No. Go away now.
Tau: Fine... then we'll do this the hard way.
**Tau invasion fleet comes in and takes over. Native population becomes second-rate citizens. Laws for population control take place. Majority of people become labor force. Military becomes cannon fodder for Tau Fire Caste. Any and all useful technology is taken away and used by the Tau for future conquests. All for the "Greater Good."**

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't find socialism (or communism, whatever you want to call it) very honorable. Because that is what the Tau are: Socialists. In Space. They say "Everyone is equal." Here is how it really is: "Everyone is equal. The Tau are just more equal. And the Ethereals are even more equal." Also, their policy for expansion is "Join us or die" pretty much.

Yes, I will admit that the Tau are unified unlike the Imperium, and maybe even a little more advanced than the Imperium (please don't kill me, Imperial fanboys. I'm on your side [sorta]). But NO race in all of 40k is truly honorable. None. Not even the Tau and their so-called "Greater Good." If you say no to what they want from you, they will pick up their rifle and shoot you in between the eyes, just like every other race in all of Warhammer 40,000. All for the "Greater Good."

Citations? Tau codex, Dawn of War (yes I use that as a citation. I consider that game to be fluff) tau ending, various books with the Tau in them (I do not remember specific names so please do not ask me for them), a lot of the Tau Empire fluff.

Grey Templar wrote:have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.

when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

Original designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Kroothawk wrote:

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Honorable? The Tau? I don't think that "Join us or die" is very honorable.

Here's a standard expansion of the Tau Empire:

Tau: Hello, new world! Would you like to join our empire for the Greater Good? We'll treat you as second-rate citizens, use your military as cannon fodder for our superior military and guns, and force you to help us make better technology by taking yours! All for the Greater Good! Would you like to join us?
Planet: No. Go away now.
Tau: Fine... then we'll do this the hard way.
**Tau invasion fleet comes in and takes over. Native population becomes second-rate citizens. Laws for population control take place. Majority of people become labor force. Military becomes cannon fodder for Tau Fire Caste. Any and all useful technology is taken away and used by the Tau for future conquests. All for the "Greater Good."**

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't find socialism (or communism, whatever you want to call it) very honorable. Because that is what the Tau are: Socialists. In Space. They say "Everyone is equal." Here is how it really is: "Everyone is equal. The Tau are just more equal. And the Ethereals are even more equal." Also, their policy for expansion is "Join us or die" pretty much.

Yes, I will admit that the Tau are unified unlike the Imperium, and maybe even a little more advanced than the Imperium (please don't kill me, Imperial fanboys. I'm on your side [sorta]). But NO race in all of 40k is truly honorable. None. Not even the Tau and their so-called "Greater Good." If you say no to what they want from you, they will pick up their rifle and shoot you in between the eyes, just like every other race in all of Warhammer 40,000. All for the "Greater Good."

Citations? Tau codex, Dawn of War (yes I use that as a citation. I consider that game to be fluff) tau ending, various books with the Tau in them (I do not remember specific names so please do not ask me for them), a lot of the Tau Empire fluff.

Grey Templar wrote:have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.

when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

I am really sick of all the people who have absolutely no clue about the Tau but intentionally make up stuff that is in direct contradiction to official texts and present it as facts. But hate and racism are no substitute for competence. Instead of proving all the nonsense in the above posts wrong, I just quote the original designer notes:

Original designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

punkow wrote:Blaha Blahaha!!!!!!!
You can tell what you want... Tau are just an unhappy add-on to the 40K universe...
Oooooh..... better weapons??? How many shots do you have in that pulse rifle??? 500??? impressive!
We are 10.000 only in the smallest ship dude!!! muhahahah
FORR THE EMPEROR!!!!

... And.... what are you doing here??? uuuuuhuuuu.... what a nice ordered world.... So bad it's full of xenos... let us make you a present; it's called Cyclonic Torpedo... Wanna see how does it work?

... a race designed to be the bunch of fooll geeks in the galaxy can't be taken seriously!
Space otakus eheh

IvanTih wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Tau is gay because their plasmas dont overheat. The Imperium needs that gak

Plasma weapons generally overheat only on higher settings,lower settings are usually used.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

about the production. You could say that IoM has Economies of scale on there side. that is, as more is produced, the cheeper it is do produce more. they dont have production anyware on the same scale. Tau i think went for the, lets serply or small number of troops with good guns as aposed to lets supply our large numbr of troops with no so good weapons.

Its good that the Tau can do this though, good for them. As far as winning a full scale war with another race except MAYBE Eldar, I will always have to side with the opponent of the Tau for pure logic.

Mordoskul wrote:You make a good point. In six thousand years (humans took 10k to reach our current level of tech) how do a bunch of backwards savages rise to the top of the tech tree?

Would make sense...you know...if you ignore all the fluff of them...winning

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Would make sense...you know...if you ignore all the fluff of them...winning

from wat, their codex?

even if you got that info from somewhere else im not talking skirmishes, im talking full crusade scale invasion, something along those lines. Not the leftovers of a hive fleet or isolated world, even if im blatantly wrong they are still inaive on multiple occasions

So what if it is; a codex is the first source for fluff, no?

Taros Campaign, a complete victory
Damocles Crusade, which i would consider it a Tau victory given their ability to stall a full-on imperial crusade for so long they just gave up
Shadowsun wiping out an entire splinter fleet without losing a single ship (pretty mary-sue, but it's official)

Granted, Tau battle fluff is veryyy lite, but what're we gonna do until they update the 'dex?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Back back back, back back!

Sry was that to far? My bad, still learning the ropes

Sry wont happen again, except the other one I have on this thread after that one, I apologize for that to.

So it seems the Tau haters here hate tau because the imperium or tyranids haven't wiped them out yet. Yet there are a multitude of minor races that have not been wiped out.

Why? Because it would be boring. If the only stipulation for races that should be allowed to exist is that they must fit some arbitrary scale of power, then I move that all races except Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids be removed from the game as they are the strongest.

The Tau exist because the Imperium doesn't have the resources to fully commit to destroying them. At last count we have major wars happening all over the imperium including, but no means limited to:

War for Armageddon
13th Black Crusade
Waagh whatever on Ryza
Leviathan containment operations
Kraken Splinter Fleets
Hive Fleet Jormungandr
Numerous Ork Waaghs in progress
M'kanda(sp?) the Reborn bearing down on Baal

Not to mention the literally thousands of other campaigns being waged across the Imperium. Attacking a concentrated grouping of worlds held by a highly professional and competent army that is dug in, fortified, and rapidly subverting Imperial Citizens to fight for them is not an easy matter.

Taros: 6-8 IG regiments, 2 full Space Marine companies, demi-scout titan legion backed up by a fairly substantial fleet. Result: defeat.

Damocles Gulf: Titan Legion, several regiments of Brimlock Dragoons, Scythes of the Emperor. Result: stalemate and eventual retreat.

Third Shere of Expansion: take several dozen worlds (IIRC) followed by quite substantial counter-attack. Some worlds retaken, others not.

Hive Fleet Gorgon (Tyranid Fluff, not Tau): Not a splinter fleet but a hive fleet in it's own right. Killed by the Tau. Yes, the IG were there but the outcome was not in doubt by that point.

Everyone can say what they want about the Imperium outnumbering the Tau a million to one. It's true. Doesn't matter. Imperium has bigger fish to fry and in the meantime, the Tau will take advantage.

Damocles Gulf Crusade: 742.M41 Tau first encounter titan class weapons. Tau fleet mauled by Imperial Crusade Fleet. Considered a disaster by the Air Caste

Taros Campaign: 998.M41 Tau begin fielding anti-titan aircraft in the AX 1-0 Tiger Shark. Naval fleet gives a better account of itself but is still ultimately defeated by the combined Space Marine/Imperial Navy fleet.

that's two and a half centuries of research and development yet both the Tigershark and the new classes of Tau warships are both noted as being "test beds" or "experimental" units. 250 years of concentrated research doesn't seem very Mary Sue to me - not when the Tau Empire lack the stagnation and beauracracy of the IoM.

The Tau IMO are just naive, ive said it before I know and Im saying it again. NAIVE. They think they can come of their rock and clean up the galaxy without knowing anything about what theyre cleaning up? Seriously, trying to make an alliance with ork's when what you want to do is "for the greater good". My god even a blind man could see this universe is beyond repair! The only way that there will be no fightning is if there are no more intelligent beings. Not even one, cuz then theres civil war. There is no "greater good". In a quote we all know; "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war". If the Tau continue their goody good little quest on galactic flowers and teddy bears they will be the first to die out.

Grey Templar wrote:sorry, but the stuff i said is in the fluff.
naturally the T'au codex won't say anything bad about them.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

So what if it is; a codex is the first source for fluff, no?

Taros Campaign, a complete victory
Damocles Crusade, which i would consider it a Tau victory given their ability to stall a full-on imperial crusade for so long they just gave up
Shadowsun wiping out an entire splinter fleet without losing a single ship (pretty mary-sue, but it's official)

Granted, Tau battle fluff is veryyy lite, but what're we gonna do until they update the 'dex?

because codex's highlight only good points for their army, ur not gonna go buy a twenty dollar book to have it say, "oh well the Tau are cool I guess but if other races got tired of them they wouldnt stand a chance."

come on man, my nid codex told of nothing but flawless victory until the end, so if I went only by my codex the tyranid only lost one battle to lose the entire hive fleet? no. It doesnt tell of all the hive fleets still being hunted down and killed. or the sure losses they are suffering to the orks. There are victories but lots of loss to. I dont ave the new 'nid dex but im sure it only has good points for 'nids in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention they have almost zero defensive know-how. If the tyranid were to come into their empire FULL FORCE not just splinter fleets, they would be very hard pressed to repel them. They get attacked they dismantle their tech and leave to attack later. Problem is that when they leave a world for 'nid theres nothing to come back to. They would have to beat them in space and I dont think the Tau have the numbers to halt a full hive fleet, even with their naval prowess.

Are you ok

GalacticDefender wrote:@xxSir
Excuse me,IOM has better plasma weaponry,better broadsides on ships(besides Tau suck in BFG) and they also have railguns.The biggest Tau fanboy is Andy Hoare who wrote fluff for Deathwatch RPG and those pile of shi* Rogue Trader novels(Tau wan* isn't his only sin,he also makes combat ranges extremly short and which are hundreds of kilometres while every other source tells us tens of thousand kilometres or more,he also ignores the fact that Imperium has railguns).

IvanTih wrote:My small rant.

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of slowed children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

I also hate Tau fanboys that state that Tau are more advanced than Imperium which they are not.

Frazzled wrote:-better aircraft/landers (Valkyrie superior, Tau craft inferior)

IvanTih wrote:Yeah they need a small space ship to kill a Titan really shows us how powerful are their ships(in a negative way).

Frazzled wrote:
No way Jose. Vanq: Str 8 2d6. railgun Str 10. how is that better?

Frazzled wrote:Cover save is a function of V5.
Armor 14 with similar cover save most times.
And yea I've run through a whole wing of crisis suits with a pissed off obliterator, not sure what your point was.

Frazzled wrote:Manta is a super heavy/BFG craft. I'll see your manta and raise you a Warlord Titan, or BFG bomber (note I like Tau super heavies). In other news my eldar remind me to note: Mantas drool, Revenant Titan rules.

Frazzled wrote:They're pretty equivalent actually. Again my eldar remind me that none of these vehicles are fit to carry a good bourdeaux. If you're going to fly in style you have to fly Air Vampire.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/ELDAR-VAMPIRE-RAIDER.html

IvanTih wrote:From what I rememer IoM also has space fighters(some are 200m or even more long) which are quite frankly good anti-titan force.

Malice wrote:Wow a lot of people hate tau, i dislike them too but not because of logic issues, i just dont like the models.
Oh yes, when tau develop warp drives they will be far more advanced than humans

Malice wrote:I read a book called fire warrior, and it says that they can already make short leaps and are constantly striving to improve on this

IvanTih wrote:And Fire Warrior is sack of shi*,in the book a fire warrior kills marines like they were bad guardsmen.

IvanTih wrote:

Malice wrote:I read a book called fire warrior, and it says that they can already make short leaps and are constantly striving to improve on this

And Fire Warrior is sack of shi*,in the book a fire warrior kills marines like they were bad guardsmen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ivan - sigh. M41 /= M31. Number of ships in M31 is highly unlikely to be the same as number of ships in M41. Especially when you have yet to show how many were detroyed in the events of the heresy, or even respond to the question.

Same as stating IoM plasma tech is superior. ANy chance of your accepting you were in error on that? At all?

Stop being so defensive about the IoM.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ivan - sigh. M41 /= M31. Number of ships in M31 is highly unlikely to be the same as number of ships in M41. Especially when you have yet to show how many were detroyed in the events of the heresy, or even respond to the question.

Same as stating IoM plasma tech is superior. ANy chance of your accepting you were in error on that? At all?

Stop being so defensive about the IoM.

BS4, twin linked S10 AP1 beats out BS3 single shot every time.

I'm expecting Tau to:
1) Witness Necron FTL
2) Go huh?
3) Have a brightspark moment and invent a way to do it.

At which point you have reliable, faster than warp travel.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The actual "plasma" is no more reliable on an IoM vehicle - you know this because they have to add lots of cooling systems ...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
IoM is regressing, both in technology (loss of key forgeworlds = compelte loss of tech, for an example) and in ability to project power (losing the big, irreplaceable stuff even slowly doesnt alter that theyre losing them) - but thats a good thing! IT makes things far more interesting!

I'm just waiting for the necrons to properly get going. And hope that the dragon makes an appearance...

Frazzled wrote:BFG: Tau ships are noted as being substantially less advanced than Imperium ships. Their best ships are just now getting to cruiser strength.
40K: Definitely not more advanced, just advanced.
Compare them to mech IG
-better plasma tech (plasma cannons)
-better long range antitank (vanquisher superior, Tau Tank inferior)
-better short range special weapons (melta guns) and crew served weapons.
-better tanks (punisher)
-better aircraft/landers (Valkyrie superior, Tau craft inferior)

IvanTih wrote:

Malice wrote:I read a book called fire warrior, and it says that they can already make short leaps and are constantly striving to improve on this

And Fire Warrior is sack of shi*,in the book a fire warrior kills marines like they were bad guardsmen.

rom: HDS
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Andy Chambers
Subject: A quick question about the Imperium of Man's fleets

I was speaking to Gordon Rennie once on the BFG-list on yahoogroups, to make it short he came up with some rough approximations for the IoM's total fleet, somewhere inbetween 275.000 to 375.000 ships

I was wondering what you feel about that figure, is it plausible? Too high? Too low?

Thanks for your time


Gordons estimates do fit well with the patrolling approaching, which is exactly how it works. However I should point out that in all likelihood the Imperium itslef doesn't have an accurate idea of fleet strength, galactic communication being what it is

AndyC
40K Overfiend
Wars mongered,
civilisations crushed

IvanTih wrote:I don't consider it cannon because in the novel a measly Fire Warrior massacres SMs,at one point he runs under the legs of one marine which causes the marine to shoot another marine.
See now?

Kilkrazy wrote:
That is the disadvantage of being 10 feet tall. Puny creatures can run right underneath you.

So you're logic says...let's just disregard fluff...right?

And if the 'Nids attacked ANYONE in full force they would be "hard pressed" to repel it; you're argument is ignorance

agnosto wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
That is the disadvantage of being 10 feet tall. Puny creatures can run right underneath you.

Ouch. Pulse rifle shot to the groin....enough to take down anybody.

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs have no 'nads, though.

prussia59 wrote:And they're commies.

Nurglitch wrote:Avatar 720:

I always wondered about the tutoring-engines to which recruits are subjected.

Kroothawk:

Which is ironic because they're conservative. They're from a galactic backwater, love guns and hunting, and even have their own religious leader who is totally not religious or the pope because that would be catholic. Have you ever seen a gay-married Tau? I don't think so...

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

Are you saying he doesnt look trust worthy, cuz I think quite the opposite

So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof

So do you want to provide proof that its not? I will gladly say im wrong if I am, but you cannot tell me that common sense doesnt dictate the a flak vest is harder to mass produce than watever it is Tau wear, and that a plasma rifle is less expensive than a LASGUN

Nurglitch wrote:Klawz:

What is the definition of "librals"?

AndrewC wrote:*snip*

Kilkrazy wrote:Nothing will happen in universe because the timeline doesn't advance.

If you want to imagine the timeline advancing, and the "realism" of operations, the IoM would find it hard to muster a large enough force to attack the Tau without leaving themselves dangerously exposed in other areas. That is part of why the Damocles Crusade failed.

It is standard military strategy to attack your most powerful enemy first.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What do you mean by that?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ah I see what you mean. I guess the difference is The Tau Empire also is in the war-torn East. Where the MIperium has a lot on its plate especially the Tyranic Wars. The Sabbat worlds are in the (somewhat) calmer west iirc.

IvanTih wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Nothing will happen in universe because the timeline doesn't advance.

If you want to imagine the timeline advancing, and the "realism" of operations, the IoM would find it hard to muster a large enough force to attack the Tau without leaving themselves dangerously exposed in other areas. That is part of why the Damocles Crusade failed.

It is standard military strategy to attack your most powerful enemy first.

Well Gaunt's Ghosts series disagree with you.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ah I see what you mean. I guess the difference is The Tau Empire also is in the war-torn East. Where the MIperium has a lot on its plate especially the Tyranic Wars. The Sabbat worlds are in the (somewhat) calmer west iirc.

Yes,Segmentum Pacificus and Solar are considered relativley peaciful.

stompydakka wrote:I laugh at tau hate.
Seriously Ivan, I dont remember who posted what now resides in my sig, but it could've been you being completely serious.
I put it there because it is funny.

Ok if you're going to ask a comparrison between production prices between 2 differant weapons 1 you need to have some kind of idea as to how the currency of one race compares in value to the other because they may very well equal the same price in production.

And also if you're going to ask a compareson between the prices of weapons you need to make sure that the weapons are comparable in an unbiased manner. Beings as the Lasgun is a weapon of the rank and file troopers and is smaller in profile then a Plasma rifle (which i'sn't a weapon of rank and file) asking if it would cost less to make is quiet frankly an unfair question because sheer size alone would cause the price to differ and beings as Plasma Rifles have no need to be produced at the same level as Las Guns because not every soldier needs them. So next time compare a Lasgun to a Pulse Rifle or a Plasma Rifle to a Plasma Gun.

But to prove you wrong that the Tau have trouble replacing their technology on the required scale. If the Tau have trouble replacing their tech then how do you explain the fact that the Tau are constantly developing new technology, if they had trouble replacing it then they would spend their time finding better more effecient ways to produce it instead of developing completly new technologies.

Then there is the fact that the Tau units are given the best equiptment to complete the task assigned to them. If the Tau had limited resources or trouble replacing their equipment then they would not have such a wide range of equipment available to their units throughout their campaigns at all times. Nor would they have the capacity to improve the technology of those races who are also apart of the Empire.

And to whoever went on earlier about how Tau Fanboys always believe propaganda dn it was your opinion and all that (I don't feel like scrolling through to find it). When you start quoting things that aren't official fluff as if they actually are that isn't your opinion. And when someone points out that what you're quoting as fluff in a fluff based discussion isn't official it has nothing to do with "propaganda" or being a "Tau Fanboy". It's simply pointing out that the basis for your argument has no grounds because your source isn't official cannon.

Doombot001 wrote:/troll post.

I'm a Tau "fanboy" and always will be. Look at humanity, it always turns in upon itself. It's fractured, selfish, and always "about me".

Tau come around and get to the point where they are almost exterminated and they say "its about US".

History lesson, the burning of the Library and Alexandria where technology was lost for a thousand years?

Think of humanity united with one purpose without infighting and with inspiration for at least 1000 years. I'll bet you we'd be far better off than we are now.

(That's where the Tau are and where we'd should be)

IvanTih wrote:deus ex machinima.

chromedog wrote:

IvanTih wrote:deus ex machinima.

God made from video game movie animations?

Cool, I dig Red v Blue and "A clone apart" as much as any other geek - but not exactly what i think you intended.

"Deus Ex Machina" is the "god from the box" phrase.

I don't understand any of your hate threads. If you hate the background so much, why play the frigging game?
Perhaps you hate the tau because they were created to tap into the mecha-fan demographic and as part of that global region (let's face it, the overwhelming majority of mecha fanboys IS from your 'region' - as in NOT Europe, the Americas, or Middle East/Sub-Saharan Africa) you feel obliged to resist the pull?

It's a game. It's called suspension of disbelief.
Build a bridge and get over yourself.

1hadhq wrote:None of the Shamans , priests or prophets had any control gained with 'magic pixie dust' equivalent.

T'au magic pixie dust = control of the minds gained
Earthlings religious leaders magic pixie dust = covers the stink or was a sacrifice

Those leaders were also not undoubted. They often fought each other too, So where do etherals strive for power or declare another etheral a heretic?

1hadhq wrote:None of the Shamans , priests or prophets had any control gained with 'magic pixie dust' equivalent.

T'au magic pixie dust = control of the minds gained
Earthlings religious leaders magic pixie dust = covers the stink or was a sacrifice

Those leaders were also not undoubted. They often fought each other too, So where do etherals strive for power or declare another etheral a heretic?

1hadhq wrote:@ Cary Grant avatar MOD:

And?
Any influence was internal, 'visions' and alike, when Tau are about external influence.
Do T'au etherals dance and sing to enact their special ability upon their fellow T'au?
Last I heard was psychic drugs don't work as pheromones do.
So dance and song may be part of a ritual but the pheromones enact the etherals will....

Are drugged DE easy to control? or Assassins ( eversor& co ) ?
Until you subscribe to voodoo and zombies.....
Hmmm their faces are bit pale already...and this monotone 'greater good'...

Kilkrazy wrote:The fluff is unclear about how influential the Ethereals are.

Kilkrazy wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Nothing will happen in universe because the timeline doesn't advance.

If you want to imagine the timeline advancing, and the "realism" of operations, the IoM would find it hard to muster a large enough force to attack the Tau without leaving themselves dangerously exposed in other areas. That is part of why the Damocles Crusade failed.

It is standard military strategy to attack your most powerful enemy first.

Well Gaunt's Ghosts series disagree with you.

Which bit, or all of it?