Mawhawk wrote:Im not speaking for all orks but... fighting crunchy bugs is a hell lot of fun, toss in some imperials...if i were a boss i would prefer to fight endlessly, orks fight to fight, not fight to win.

That's a big reason I think the Ork's have a lot of drawbacks in battle. They do a lot of things in battle that cause more death and destruction, but these arent necessarily tactically sound. This could be a MAJOR drawback in larger conflicts with the Tyranid.

You couldn't really say Orks outnumber Tyranids could you?

It's never been mentioned how many Tyranids are still outside the galaxy.

I don't know how adaptable the Orks are but the latest Nid codex talked about the Tyranids adapting against the Tau weaponry so it became ineffective. Fortunately the Tau are apparently the most adaptable race known and defeated the Hive fleet. It didn't make clear if this specific fleet was exclusively this adaptable or just that they had to adapt because the Tau were so adaptable

Isn't it more likely that the Nids would do the same thing and become immune to the Orks weaponry?

Also on the offensive the Nids might just poison the Orks.

In Xenology they experiment on an Ork's corpse and its spores. Using simple herbicide the "the tiniest amount was corrosive to orkflesh, but at a microscopic level. A Miracle! The alagal helix was burned through - not destroyed, but slowed. I left the spores to grow for an hour and came back to find untidy structures, lopsided and tumorous: wretched amalgams of Orkoid species."

If the Imperium has discovered this then maybe the Orks days are numbered and the Tyranids wouldn't have anything to fight.

yeah but how will the imperium use this on a large scale because anything takes (sometimes) a milenium to get through the checks and stuff soooooo they probably wont kill them and the orks are currently one of the most proffitable species for GW at the moment and i cant see them getting rid of them anytime soon

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the speed and potency of the Tyranid evolutionary miracle. Unfortunately orks shoot hard unforgiving slugs/bolts/bullets/shell's and tons of other things. A really hard carapace is about the only thing you can do against a projectile weapon. The 'nids developed an immunity to ion weaponry because it works on a molecular level.

I think it was pulse ammo and kroots weapons. That they became resistant to. They're projectiles aren't they? S5 AP5 would imply harder hitting weapons than the orks standard gun.

Of course this is all hypothectical Ultrasmurf. GW wouldn't kill anything off. If you just go with what sells well the Space Marines are always going to win.

Not sure about what checks need to be carried out with herbicide being used to kill Orks. "We don't want to cause undue suffering in the greenskins"

I don't know if those records ever made it from the lab as a clever necron thing seems to take over at the end.

But that'd would mean the necron know of the weakeness too.

I just think its funny that simple weedkiller is the most powerful weapon against the Orks.

It's a projectile in a sense, but when it hits the target it does more than just mushroom against the target and cause kinetic damage

The problem is that all these adaptations take away from some other aspect of the bio-form in question (otherwise the 'Nids would have all the adaptations brought up here and more). For example, a harder carapace would also need to take up more space to effectively absorb the kinetic force from a bullet (otherwise, it would be brittle and easy to shatter), slowing down the Tyranid in question significantly. Then, whatever the bioform may have to armor it, certain things will still harm it;
Shokk Attack Gun (having insane snotlings/squigs scrabbling around beneath your armor plates can hardly be comfortable)
Plasma/Melta weapons (the Orks should have these in abundance now that they control the former Imperium/Tau Sept Worlds)
Brute Strength (no feasible amount of armor can protect against a power klaw wielded by a three meter tall Nob)
Flamers (these cast a blanket of flame that will sear anything left open by a chink in the armor)

good point Shrouger.
Nids can't stop snotlings from a sag.

tyranids can adapt but they must also lose qualities. if they did'nt lose qualities there could be genstealers with the equivelant of terminator armour. orks don't have to lose qualities in technolidgy because they can create kombi-weapons and theres always going to be an old gun lying around in the mek shoop that the nids did'nt think they need to counter anymore

While I understand the Tyranid Hive Fleet can out think and out maneuver Orks, it's also been shown the Orks are capable of destroying Hive Fleets in Ship to Ship combat, something the Imperium really struggles with.

According to the fluff I've read, Orks are still far more numerous than other species in the 40k universe.

According to the fluff I've read, Orks are still far more numerous than other species in the 40k universe.

And in the time it takes for the bulk of the fleet (whose very existence is uncomfirmed), the current Hive Fleets will already have been eradicated; the Orks might well go out to meet the arriving Tyranids before the bugs are even aware of the danger.

well it how fast orks can travvel is a bit of a lottery. an ork fleet can take centuries to cross the warp, but in the ork codex it says one ork waaaagh went back in time in the warp and came out shortly before they arrived

I just thought of a new twist on one of my previous ideas. To revamp the old Mosquito Nid idea, how about each one is a tiny brain bug. We could say each mosquito could be equal to about 3-5 synaptic brain cells; and since they swarm in the billions, they could easily cover entire continents with a synaptic link. They are too small to get radar lock, so if Orks waste time shooting blindly into the air, all the other Nids have plenty of time to run to the front line. If the mosquito threat is ignored, then it only takes the one mosquito sting to deliver what ever potent weed killing virus the Hive Mind thought of.

Some Greenskins might think that blasting 17 million of these mosquito brain bugs out of the air might cause a disturbance in the synaptic chain. Rest assured, this is not the case. Not only do the brain bugs swarm by the billions in the air, there is also enough to spare so that each of the lesser instinctual Tyranids can have their very own groupings of these tiny brain bugs clustered at and around the base of each their skulls. If the enemy gets enough of these mosquito brains latched to themselves, then they too can hear the glorious voice of the Hive Mind.

The Shadow in the Warp would be physically manifest as the swarm blacks out the sky and casts all worlds into darkness!

yes but every time a mosquitoe nid dies all the nids would feel it. and it would need to be a big creature to store poisen potent enough poisen to kill an ork in one sting. you also have to ask if you're idea is so great why hasn't the hive mind already done it whilst they're fighting orks in the octarius war

Yeah the Tyrnaids will always lose qualities when they gain others. Faster tyranid will keep lighter carapaces and heavily armored tyranid will be slower. The only exception seems to be the Swarmlord who is heavily armored and is as fast hell at the same time. (in the fluff)

Yeah but theres only one of him (thank gork and mork)

moonshine wrote:yes but every time a mosquitoe nid dies all the nids would feel it. and it would need to be a big creature to store poisen potent enough poisen to kill an ork in one sting. you also have to ask if you're idea is so great why hasn't the hive mind already done it whilst they're fighting orks in the octarius war

Well, then I will pray to the Hive Mind with all my might, and then write a note, and then launch the note into space on a bottle rocket, and then the Hive Mind will hear me, and then it will be cool!

As for asking myself why the Hive Mind has not thought of this stuff already... You would actually have to ask GW... But they are only going to tell you to buy stuff. The ideas I am coming up with are end game scenarios, we all know GW has no idea how things are going to end... or if it will end at all. However, I am quite confident that if the Hive Mind where real, there would be creatures out there very similar to what I have come up with.

Killing the brain bugs flying in the air will not change a thing. Every Tyranid that needs synaptic link, will have enough Brain Mosquitoes assigned to it upon birth. Brain Mosquitoes, with a symbiotic relationship in this way, are the ones who channel the will of the Hive Mind into the lesser Tyranid.

The Brain Mosquitoes in the air may not even be active all the time. Consider them to be more like Random Access Memory (R.A.M.) in a computer. So, if a warrior randomly dies in battle, the Hive Mind can tap into enough Brain Mosquitoes to cover that area with synapse again. At that time the Brain Mosquitoes will fly lower, attach to some other Nid, or take cover until they are no longer needed.

As for being a potent enough poison, it is not the size of the bug carrying the poison that you should be worried about, it is the type of poison in the bug. The ease in which the Hive Mind can break down DNA coding is diabolical. It would only take a few fast acting and self replicating strands of super duper Ork cancer cells and then the Ork starts to sprout tumors all over his body.

Psyker_9er wrote:

moonshine wrote:yes but every time a mosquitoe nid dies all the nids would feel it. and it would need to be a big creature to store poisen potent enough poisen to kill an ork in one sting. you also have to ask if you're idea is so great why hasn't the hive mind already done it whilst they're fighting orks in the octarius war

Well, then I will pray to the Hive Mind with all my might, and then write a note, and then launch the note into space on a bottle rocket, and then the Hive Mind will hear me, and then it will be cool!

As for asking myself why the Hive Mind has not thought of this stuff already... You would actually have to ask GW... But they are only going to tell you to buy stuff. The ideas I am coming up with are end game scenarios, we all know GW has no idea how things are going to end... or if it will end at all. However, I am quite confident that if the Hive Mind where real, there would be creatures out there very similar to what I have come up with.

Killing the brain bugs flying in the air will not change a thing. Every Tyranid that needs synaptic link, will have enough Brain Mosquitoes assigned to it upon birth. Brain Mosquitoes, with a symbiotic relationship in this way, are the ones who channel the will of the Hive Mind into the lesser Tyranid.

The Brain Mosquitoes in the air may not even be active all the time. Consider them to be more like Random Access Memory (R.A.M.) in a computer. So, if a warrior randomly dies in battle, the Hive Mind can tap into enough Brain Mosquitoes to cover that area with synapse again. At that time the Brain Mosquitoes will fly lower, attach to some other Nid, or take cover until they are no longer needed.

As for being a potent enough poison, it is not the size of the bug carrying the poison that you should be worried about, it is the type of poison in the bug. The ease in which the Hive Mind can break down DNA coding is diabolical. It would only take a few fast acting and self replicating strands of super duper Ork cancer cells and then the Ork starts to sprout tumors all over his body.

Correct me if im wrong, but these mosquito's are the size of normal mosquito's right? I like the idea of billions of mosquito's on the battlefield swarming the Tyranid force it makes them seem more..... swarmish.

There are still some major issues with these mosquitos:
They may be expendable (even more so than gaunts), but they still require a certain amount of biomass. Considering the metabolism required to fly with any kind of speed alone, these mosquitos will likely consume a proportionally significant amount of biomass individually. Then, considering the billions that will die before they reach the Orks (the plasma flamers should see to that), the cost becomes even greater, namely because the biomass cannot be recycled. Further, I doubt that the hive mind could easily develop a toxin that could fell an Ork almost instantly; an Ork needs to practically swim in most poisons to even begin to experience ill-effects.

I think they would have to be like a nuisance, not fatal. Maybe making it hard to see, definitely a psychological weapon.

I think they would have to be like a nuisance, not fatal. Maybe making it hard to see, definitely a psychological weapon.

Agreed. Even Orks would likely find insects swarming around them at least mildly uncomfortable, perhaps even painful if enough survive to reach them.

i think they would survive, we are talking billions of creatures. maybe they could lay eggs in living and dead hosts? eggs just under the skin 100's from one victim. Yet not fatal just extremely painful.

That would not be dissimilar to a gas attack.

haha yes thats very true. But this would be a living self replicating gas that keeps its deliverers soldiers in line!

Well there you go.

ah yes thats somthing i just realised, the mosquitose would have very smaal lungs and organs, ork worlds are usually very poluted, and have alot of smoke from vehicles and warbikes, the mosquitose would suphorcate very quickly before they do anything.

Well really anything that is not adapted to those conditions would have a hard time breathing. Tyranid have bested almost every condition there is to fight in, I don't think a polluted Ork world is any different.

I think it is more or less established that pollutants in the air will have little impact on either group.

obsidianaura wrote:In Xenology they experiment on an Ork's corpse and its spores. Using simple herbicide the "the tiniest amount was corrosive to orkflesh, but at a microscopic level. A Miracle! The alagal helix was burned through - not destroyed, but slowed. I left the spores to grow for an hour and came back to find untidy structures, lopsided and tumorous: wretched amalgams of Orkoid species."

If the Imperium has discovered this then maybe the Orks days are numbered and the Tyranids wouldn't have anything to fight.

In Xenology, it was also discovered that at the core of EVERY Nid that they had on site, there was a ripper, and that the rippers were all functionally identicle.

also, from reading the book, im not sure if the IOM ever actually got any of the information from the disections.

Another point to consider is that, IIRC, Weird boyz do not draw on the warp (or at least, not entirely) for the power. they draw on the pure WAAAAGH energy created by the orks around them. the more boyz, and the rowdier they are, the more powerful the weird boy gets. Zogwart is gonna get tired of the headache the hivemind is causing him, and direct his curse (drawing power from an entire planet) at the Hivemind. Boom. bye bye hivemind, hello ork victory.

I'm not certain that the Ork Weirdboyz will simply destroy the Hive Mind, but they can certainly do some damage, perhaps enough to disorientate the Hive Mind at a critical moment. Suddenly, a Gaunt bounding toward an Ork will pause for a moment in doubt as its instincts assume control; just long enough to be crushed by a choppa. This will be repeated across the entire planet. Further, any synapse creatures will be either dazed or killed, further weakening the command structure once the Hive Mind reassumes control.

Also, given the mosquito idea: with the Hive Mind knocked out, those things will likely drop in their millions.

On the orbital front; without the Hive Mind's control, the Hive Ships' more complicated inner workings will be rendered temporarily ineffective (just as a Kill Kroozer moves in with with a cyclone bomb )

aaaah what if the orks got thier hands on the chemical the imperials are using on armegeddon and releasde it on the hive fleets after making more that is and since the tyranids are just organic nothing else they would all die and be turned into black sludge

corpsesarefun wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Shrouger wrote:The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

You realize that Hormagaunts lay eggs right?

Source?

As far as I know unless specified to do so (such as those new gaunt spawning beasties) no tyranids produce offspring other than norn queens.

Tervigons spawn Termagaunts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly its unlikely either would win. Both can repopulate, both have almost endless numbers and neither has a clear advantage or some instant galaxy killer that would seriously maim the other.

Yes, the Ork,s DEFINITELY have less regulations on the use of last resort weapons than the IoM. Though seeing how the Tyranid are a threat to anyone im sure the Imperium thought of using that chemical already. So there might be something there that made them decide not to.

the impirium might have had the chemical ready to go but when the csm got to close to terra most forces retreated to try and defend it , or maybe the tau created one

Whatever happened,Chaos would just waltz in and bust ass anyway.
Also, in "storm of iron" book don't the Iron warriors use a corrupted 'nid hive ship thing to transport titans?
Personally though I'd have to say nids would probably win. (But the orks would enjoy the fight anyway!)

Chaos would be busy consuming the souls of every human in the galaxy to bother with the Orks or 'Nids. Once humanity is gone, Chaos will have far less sustenance, forced to rely on what remains of the Eldar. They will likely ignore the Orks and 'Nids.

Ya chaos would have their hand tide because Slannesh would have bean dead by then thanks to the knewly born Eldar death god which would have brought back the eldy race as a whole. But back on topic i say orks would win mainly because thier all psychic they just dont know it. Plus the orks would just keep coming back even after the nids left the Milky Way. Not to menchon if they all died the got the two most powerful gods ever Mork and Grok ( sorry if i spelt thier names wrong) For mainly those reasons i say that orks would win. Also red makes them go faster.

Yeah i doubt gork and mork will care for the shadow in the warp and eventually tzeench will find a way to penetrate. oh and were forgetting necrons nids can't eat necrons

People, it's Orks vs. Tyranids ONLY. We're assuming the others have been removed from the equation. I swear, keeping you guys on track is like herding lawyers.

yeah that was of topic.
but back on topic, can gork and mork destroy the tyranids presence in the warp?

moonshine wrote:yeah that was of topic.
but back on topic, can gork and mork destroy the tyranids presence in the warp?

I think they have the raw power, yes. I don't believe they have the focus or desire to do it. IMHO

yeah that makes sence but i imagine after a while they will give the shadow in the warp a good wack

Honestly, Mork and Gork are the reason I think orks will win in the end.

i agree gork and mork would realise too many orks are dying and deal with the nids

Na, it's just that before the nids can wipe orks out the Hive Mind will be the biggest thing for Gork'n Mork to fight!

Scrabb wrote:Na, it's just that before the nids can wipe orks out the Hive Mind will be the biggest thing for Gork'n Mork to fight!

The Hive Mind isn't a "thing".

Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

Tau don't have a warp presence do they?

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

And blanks have none?

corpsesarefun wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Shrouger wrote:The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

You realize that Hormagaunts lay eggs right?

Source?

As far as I know unless specified to do so (such as those new gaunt spawning beasties) no tyranids produce offspring other than norn queens.

I know I said I'd bowed out, but someone questioned my information. Page 38 of Codex Tyranids 5th edition.

Furthermore, unlike most Tyranid bioforms, Hormagaunts are able to reproduce independently, and lay hundreds of eggs just below the surface of a planet before their short, hyperactive lifespan is over.

Tyanids obviously have the ability to give any of their bioforms reproductive ability, they just don't. My assumption is control - as long as only major synaptic links (Dominatrices, Norn Queens and Tervigons) can reproduce, then they maintain tighter control.

Not to mention, the Parasite of Mortrex is basically a Shrike with the ability to breed rippers inside living tissue (ie plant the eggs inside a human).

Klawz wrote:

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

Neither are Gork'n Mork. They are the physic manifestation of every single ork. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that both 'powers' existed in the warp and could therefore combat each other.

Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

Neither are Gork'n Mork. They are the physic manifestation of every single ork. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that both 'powers' existed in the warp and could therefore combat each other.

Psychic*

And warp powers constantly fight, Gork and Mork are noted for beating up and tricking the other gods.

corpsesarefun wrote:And warp powers constantly fight, Gork and Mork are noted for beating up and tricking the other gods.

danke.

I say Orks. Just because I know somewhere it mentions that a fully united uprising of the Orks would be unstoppable.

I don't remember where I read that, lol but I did!

Besides, you never know what a ork might do! Highly unpredictable little buggers.

Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

Neither are Gork'n Mork. They are the physic manifestation of every single ork. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that both 'powers' existed in the warp and could therefore combat each other.

That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.
Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

Klawz wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

Neither are Gork'n Mork. They are the physic manifestation of every single ork. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that both 'powers' existed in the warp and could therefore combat each other.

That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.
Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

Gork and Mork fighting the hive mind is not like a mosquito fighting an avalanche, Gork and mork are raging powerhouses acording to the ork codex

Scrabb wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Psychic*

danke.

Klawz wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Uuuuuur everything has a presence in the warp so it defaultly becomes a thing in the warp

The hive mind isn't something you can "krump". It's the conscious manifestation of EVERY SINGLE TYRANID. It isn't a "thing" so much as a force of nature.
Also, Tau have very weak presences.

Neither are Gork'n Mork. They are the physic manifestation of every single ork. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that both 'powers' existed in the warp and could therefore combat each other.

That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.
Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

In a realm of energy and mind, do you really think thats a problem. The whole Warp is fromed by the mind, if Gork & Mork want to figth the Hivemind they will. Don't let the limited human understanding of the metaphysical effect you so much. The Hivemand can have a from in the Warp just as easy as any other warp entity.

Klawz wrote:That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.

Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

Well, all the powes in the warp are like that. I mean, the difference between the Hive Mind and Gork'n Mork and the Big Four is that the tyranids give up their mental facilities, orks just radiate the psychic powers as extras and the other gods leech the very emotions of humans and other species. A bug doesn't inherently have more brainpower than a human has emotions or an ork has Waagh! energy. I really don't see how anything in the warp can be described as calmer or less destructive than an avalanche. Even in comparison to a synaptic chain of killer predators.

The Hive Mind is more powerful than the sum of it's parts. Trillions upon trillions of organisms contributing to a shared intelligence that is just massive. But it still has a ton of responsibilities non of the other factors in the warp have. A million battlefields where trillions of organisms fight. Each claw, barb and wing is slashed, fired and operated by the Hive Mind. The development of counters to thousands of different forces with their own collections of brilliant minds. Powering the zoanthropes, assessing battle reports, prioritizing digestive pools against bio-gargants in production, reading the beacons sent out by the genestealers, dealing with probes from alpha plus psychers....... The list never ends. To suggest that it does all this and can also effortlessly fight off all the collected powers of the warp as well seems off to me.

Exactly, the hive mind cant be faught. Its a conciousness so me calling it an it isnt even accurate

Scrabb wrote:

Klawz wrote:That's the thing. The Hive Mind is on such a scale above the gods that the gods fighting the hive mind is probably comparable to a mosquito fighting an avalanche.

Clarification: While Gork and Mork are manifestations of the Ork Race, the Hive Mind isn't. It's a synaptic chain. Its manifestation is the entire tyranid race. Fighting is like fighting an avalanche. There isn't one thing you can combat.

Well, all the powes in the warp are like that. I mean, the difference between the Hive Mind and Gork'n Mork and the Big Four is that the tyranids give up their mental facilities, orks just radiate the psychic powers as extras and the other gods leech the very emotions of humans and other species. A bug doesn't inherently have more brainpower than a human has emotions or an ork has Waagh! energy. I really don't see how anything in the warp can be described as calmer or less destructive than an avalanche. Even in comparison to a synaptic chain of killer predators.

The Hive Mind is more powerful than the sum of it's parts. Trillions upon trillions of organisms contributing to a shared intelligence that is just massive. But it still has a ton of responsibilities non of the other factors in the warp have. A million battlefields where trillions of organisms fight. Each claw, barb and wing is slashed, fired and operated by the Hive Mind. The development of counters to thousands of different forces with their own collections of brilliant minds. Powering the zoanthropes, assessing battle reports, prioritizing digestive pools against bio-gargants in production, reading the beacons sent out by the genestealers, dealing with probes from alpha plus psychers....... The list never ends. To suggest that it does all this and can also effortlessly fight off all the collected powers of the warp as well seems off to me.

It DOESN'T. It doesn't need to.
Imagine the greatest warriors EVAR, named Gork and Mork. They can kill ANYTHING. Now they have one last big fight, the are going to fight against the planet itself...
GORK&MORK VS. AVALANCHE!

The Hive Mind isn't something you can fight. It's a force. The only way to fight the Hive Mind is to fight its nids.
The Hive Mind is different from Gork, Mork, or the big Four. It doesn't require worship. It makes its own worship.
I'd say more but I have to watch Mirrormask.

Klawz wrote:

The Hive Mind isn't something you can fight. It's a force. The only way to fight the Hive Mind is to fight its nids.
The Hive Mind is different from Gork, Mork, or the big Four. It doesn't require worship. It makes its own worship.
I'd say more but I have to watch Mirrormask.

Yes it makes it's own worship and ALL of it's worship would form in the warp, gork and mork could easiily break through the shadow in the warp because it is not poerfull enough to stop them the big four would probably join in aswell

The gods can fight avalanches. The gods are avalanches. The only differences I see between the Hive Mind and other warp powers is that it is actually the mind of physical things in reality and is mostly not powered by worship and not at all by emotion (making it 100% reliable).

Even though I still disagree with (and basically don't understand) your position, how can Gork and Mork not destroy the things that power the Hive Mind?

Edit: Gork and Mork aren't physical beings. You can also fight a force of nature if you are strong enough. Controlling the weather on a planet? Easy peasy. Beating a black hole? Totally doable by a god in my opinion. I think you're underestimating what the 'gods' of Warhammer 40k can do.

Gork and Mork are gods. They are beings fueled in the warp by the Orks.

The Hive Mind is not a god. It IS the Tyranid Race.

The only way to krump the Hivemind is to kill all Tyranids.

And Gork and Mork don't normally intrude on the affairs of the material realm beyond giving bumps to to orks. No Orky Daemons.

Klawz wrote:Gork and Mork are gods. They are beings fueled in the warp by the Orks.

The Hive Mind is not a god. It IS the Tyranid Race.

The only way to krump the Hivemind is to kill all Tyranids.

Ah, gotcha. Well, okay. But the Hive Mind is in the warp, yes?

Let's imagine a new species. Let's say this species could project it's consciousness into the warp whenever it wanted to. Let's say one of them gets it's consciousness eaten by a daemon. It dies. Is there not a possibility a similar thing can happen to the tyranids?


In my mind the tyranids are like the appendages for an immense shared consciousness predator who is a super genius who can multitask countless tasks while imagining new things independent of each other and frying billions of lesser (but still super) minds all at the same time. This consciousness can be attacked, weakened and destroyed as easily as that of any of the chaos gods and easier than mork and gork.

The Hive Mind is in the warp, yes. it's not a god that can be fought though, it's a blanketing presence. It would be more like trying to fight a wave of water than an actual entity.

well then they would use their cunnin' and make a wall or a boiler and boil the hive mind

Shadow in Warp = Havemind/Nids

Don't let the human minds limited understanding of metaphysics blind you. The Shadow is the Havemind in the warp.
Remember in the warp thing like time and space dose not matter. That mean size in not a issue Gork & Mork can be as big or small as need to be.

-Loki- wrote:The Hive Mind is in the warp, yes. it's not a god that can be fought though, it's a blanketing presence. It would be more like trying to fight a wave of water than an actual entity.

Yes gork and mork are in the warp so they can do almost anything they want so they could fight water, also it's in the warp it's liquids, solids and gases mean nothing so even if the hivemind is a blanketing pressence it could still be fought

I don't know why you people think I said the hive mind was made of water...

I was just using an analogy. The Hive Mind isn't some warp entity that you can fight like a Chaos or Ork god. It's like a blanket of pure psychic energy blocking everything out.

The wave analogy is because the Hive Mind hasn't been described as having an actual manifestation of itself in the warp like a god, it's purely the warp echo from the psychic energy of each Tyranid. It smothers all other warp signatures and drives psykers insane.

-Loki- wrote:I don't know why you people think I said the hive mind was made of water...

We aren't, we are pointing out that even if water or a echo, it has no baring on what can happen in the Warp. In a place where the mind is the most powerful force, just becouse it's true one second dosen't mean its true the next.

Guys.

Hive Mind = The Nothing for The Neverending Story.
capish?

I'm wondering why you believe that Gork and Mork are stronger than the Hive Mind...

We have no clue how large the Tyranid race is. What we have in this galaxy could just be scouting fleets of the true Tyranid swarm. Not to mention that, if Tyranids have ravanged other galaxies, and split into tendrils, then their presence could be in many more galaxies than we currently know.

Their "present" Shadow could be as large/powerful as Gork and Mork.

-Loki- wrote:The Hive Mind isn't some warp entity that you can fight like a Chaos or Ork god. It's like a blanket of pure psychic energy blocking everything out...

That's what the gods are though. waves and rivers and oceans of pure psychic energy.

-Loki- wrote:....It smothers all other warp signatures and drives psykers insane.

I didn't want to have to do this, but...

footsloggin wrote: I'm wondering why you believe that Gork and Mork are stronger than the Hive Mind....

At this point we're debating whether the powers in the warp are capable of a meaningful attack on the Hive Mind or not. The tyranid numbers are an unknown. We could be dealing with anywhere from almost all of them to almost none of them. Orks have been established as the most numerous race. The simplest answer with the information we have is that the nids didn't quite make it with the most people deal and are working as we speak to rectify that inequity.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with 'the nothing' so cannot really benefit from klaws explanation.


I am going to suggest we agree to disagree on the Hive Mind/Gork'n Mork battle and blame the warp for this whole mess. It is the sort of thing people would form different views on.

Soooooo didn't the nothing be beat with a kid ?? and a name ?? IMAGINE GORK AND MORK WITH THIER FISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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and if that fails they have names too

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:Soooooo didn't the nothing be beat with a kid ?? and a name ?? IMAGINE GORK AND MORK WITH THIER FISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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and if that fails they have names too

Metaphor has been over-extended.
ABORT! ABORT!

Well now were off the gods (I think). What about ork space weapons, in octarrius they outgunned the nids and with everything they stole, they would have a mighty space fleet. The nids hardly make it to the planet they wanted to eat.

One thing about the Tyranids is that they can come from any direction. (space is big). You counter one fleet and fortify the area to defend against any future incursions the all of a sudden another 'nid fleet attacks from a completely different direction. Ork's have been noted to take very tactically absurd moves just to prolong the fighting and death of both sides for the fun of it. Moves like this could let millions of Tyranid creatures through their defensive perimeters and maybe even lose them a planet if the battle is vital enough.

WHOA! I can't believe I didn't think of this before!

So far we have been assuming that the Orks are the only ones with looted tech from the IOM or other races. Well DUH!!!! Genestealer Cults!!!

What if the whole reason the IOM finally fell, is because it became one big Genestealer Cult? Now the Tyranids have access to pretty much the same tech the Orks do, even claiming and denying valuable tech that would have been looted for the Ork war effort. Countless human populated Hive Planets with billions upon billions of new cultists able to use the same kind of technology the orks can.

We can even say Tau or Eldar fell victim to the genestealer virus. Again, tyranids can change the whole dynamics of the war itself, the possibilities of Tyranid conquest are endless. Orks can only change what they bring to the war, and although that might be a very large number of things indeed, Tyranid capabilities are infinite.

Isn't the fight going on on Orctarius that people are using actually to end in defeat of the Tyranid Swarm there?

The Eldar destroyed all the planets around them. (must have seemed that the Orks winning there seemed preferable by their divinations.)

This means the Tryanids will run out of steam so to speak if Orks are all flocking to that world.


Here's the source

Eldar forces from the Biel-Tan and Saim Hann Craftworlds destroy both Imperial and Ork worlds surrounding the Octarius system with the intent of denying bio-resources to Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Psyker_9er wrote:
WHOA! I can't believe I didn't think of this before!

So far we have been assuming that the Orks are the only ones with looted tech from the IOM or other races. Well DUH!!!! Genestealer Cults!!!

What if the whole reason the IOM finally fell, is because it became one big Genestealer Cult? Now the Tyranids have access to pretty much the same tech the Orks do, even claiming and denying valuable tech that would have been looted for the Ork war effort. Countless human populated Hive Planets with billions upon billions of new cultists able to use the same kind of technology the orks can.

We can even say Tau or Eldar fell victim to the genestealer virus. Again, tyranids can change the whole dynamics of the war itself, the possibilities of Tyranid conquest are endless. Orks can only change what they bring to the war, and although that might be a very large number of things indeed, Tyranid capabilities are infinite.

Yes but once the genstealers get killed the orks take the tech and make it theirs, no other race can use ork tech because it only works for orks

I'm Calling it for orks. I'd also like to say, due to the imperium falling, and the hive fleets mainly coming from the south and east, the orks would most likely control Terra, right?

So, then they would most likely control Mars, right?

So, think of all the tech the orks could've looted from Mars. That's a feth load of sweet tech.

This thread has been going on forever.

How about this as a compromise.

The orks and nids hold hands and sing beetles songs until the 40k universe becomes so not grimdark it implodes. See, everyone's happy .

moonshine wrote:Yes but once the genstealers get killed the orks take the tech and make it theirs, no other race can use ork tech because it only works for orks

They could only loot the tech if they win that battle, and have time afterwards to gather it up.

The point I was trying to make though is this: anything the Orks can do, Tyranids can do too... And more!

You Ork boyz where talking about teleportation devices before... now Tyranids have that too.
Missiles that destroy worlds? Tyranid Cults got em too...
Stompas and Gargants? Cultists can drive the same sort of Imperial tech too... In addition too the biotitans the Nids already have.

So now there is nothing Orks can do on accident that Tyranids can not do on purpose... Just without the failures and random Orky explosions.

The biggest point to all of this is: Tyranids can do lots of things that Orks can not. The thing that you Boyz hold so dear, is the same thing that holds you back: Technology

I've said it once and I will say it again: Orks can only change what they bring to the battle. Tyranids can change everything about the battle! Where it is fought, how it is fought, and what it is fought with.

As I mentioned before Orks can only make three kinds of technology for the battle: 1) Weapons (2) Vehicles (3) Armor. But there are only so many variations of each before they are repeating themselves. It was said before that there is nothing Tyranid evolution can do that Ork technology can not. This is just not true. Examples:

Lets say the Orks make 60,000 different types of missiles that can destroy a whole planet. Big whoopee doo, they all do the same exact thing no matter how many variations you use to do the planet is still destroyed. But can Ork Technology make a bug so big it eats planets and poops hive fleets? Tyranids could if they wanted too.

Orks can make solid slug ammo, pulse rifles (e.m.p., sonic, etc.), plasma, melta, flame, toxic, and so on until they have shot every known projectile including the kitchen sink. Can they make a gun that shoots, Oh I don't know.... Bees? And I don't mean going and finding a bee hive and sticking it into a grenade launcher, I mean Bees that gestate and grow to maturity in a blink of an eye while flying towards their target.

Can Ork technology liquefy a pile of dirt and, in moments, grow a new form of life from it?

But the sing song hand holding idea works for me... The Hive Mind loves you and Genestealers just want to be hugged anyways.

@Psyker_9er

Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.

There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.

Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.

There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

Scrabb wrote:@Psyker_9er
Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.
There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.
Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.
There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

As per current fluff I would agree with you, however, the time frame we are talking about is well beyond established fluff. Perhaps an exception would be made since the extra fire power would be so devastating. Afterwards the cults can finally reach heavenly bliss and achieve enlightenment by being absorbed into the hive collective mind. That is the problem with these science fiction debates though, none of us own the copyright

But there are still things that good ol'fashioned evolution can do that technology can not. In real life, scientists have been trying to make life from dirt for many years now, to no avail. Well, not dirt per say, but still they have failed to create new life from raw material. So some might mention cloning. A clone is a copy of another life form, not a new life form all together. You can't clone a pile of dirt and make a monkey. Tyranids could. Technology needs a life form to make a life form, Tyranids just need raw material. Technology would need eggs to fertilize to make a new life, Tyranids could eat a dead tree and poop out a Carnifex (a really big tree). Give technology a pile of rocks and a pond of water, all technology could do is tell you how much rocks and water you have. Give the same materials to the Hive Mind and it will tell you how many life forms it can make out of them.

As for Orks not needing to "harvest" material: they still need supply chains of fuel, bullets, guns, and food etc. etc... The Orks are not born with guns in their hands, and they can't make a gun out of dirt. Tyranids can be born with a gun in their hand, plus the gun and the Nid where both made from dirt...

actualy scientists just made a bacterium from raw matierials


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279988/Artificial-life-created-Craig-Venter--wipe-humanity.html

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:@Psyker_9er
Your theory is fun and indeed, potentially devastating. The only problem with it is established tyranid fluff. Cults are reabsorbed with all other combat troops whenever a planet is harvested. That is the tyranid way. They have no use for or understanding of technology.
There are lots of things the tyranids cannot do. Appreciate good kulture, for one. How many Rock concerts do you think the nids have had? Zero.
Once again, bioengineering can be induced via technology. Heck, magic can be replicated through technology. And the ability to destroy a planet is hardly an example of technologies failings.
There are things orks can do tyranids cannot. Like engage in a protracted campaign without needing to harvest materials.

As per current fluff I would agree with you, however, the time frame we are talking about is well beyond established fluff. Perhaps an exception would be made since the extra fire power would be so devastating. Afterwards the cults can finally reach heavenly bliss and achieve enlightenment by being absorbed into the hive collective mind. That is the problem with these science fiction debates though, none of us own the copyright

But there are still things that good ol'fashioned evolution can do that technology can not. In real life, scientists have been trying to make life from dirt for many years now, to no avail. Well, not dirt per say, but still they have failed to create new life from raw material. So some might mention cloning. A clone is a copy of another life form, not a new life form all together. You can't clone a pile of dirt and make a monkey. Tyranids could. Technology needs a life form to make a life form, Tyranids just need raw material. Technology would need eggs to fertilize to make a new life, Tyranids could eat a dead tree and poop out a Carnifex (a really big tree). Give technology a pile of rocks and a pond of water, all technology could do is tell you how much rocks and water you have. Give the same materials to the Hive Mind and it will tell you how many life forms it can make out of them.

As for Orks not needing to "harvest" material: they still need supply chains of fuel, bullets, guns, and food etc. etc... The Orks are not born with guns in their hands, and they can't make a gun out of dirt. Tyranids can be born with a gun in their hand, plus the gun and the Nid where both made from dirt...

That is probably the most interesting paragraph I have read on this site before. Thank you for that.

Hey you can make things out of dirt

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279988/Artificial-life-created-Craig-Venter--wipe-humanity.html


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Animals alive things i meant

Im not surprised, dirt has many different nutrients and minerals in it..... the tyranid can just make stuff from it better. (obviously)


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tyranids are basically like humans now.... they strip all the resources clean and move on. Although we may not be able to move on.