Assuming the Imperium falls (which it inevitably will), Chaos will likely engulf much of the galaxy (at least as far as GW has let on). However, certain groups will inevitably surive. The C'tan will become completely dormant once more and the Dark Eldar will hide in Commorragh, leaving the Orks and Tyranids (Tau and Eldar would be wiped out). Assuming Chaos has focused more on consuming what remains of the Imperium, leaving the two groups to their own devices, which side do you think will dominate what remains of the galaxy? Consider numbers, territory, strategy, influence of Chaos etc.

I think in the end it will come down to Necrons vs Tyranids. That assumed the C'Tan don't just decide a galaxy completely devoid of life is to their liking and step aside to let the `Nids take out the trash for them.

Why not Orks? They thrive on war just as much as Tyranids, and have "similar" populations to boot.

Because tyranids eat orks.

Orcs die, and leave spores which take a while to grow into fight ready ors.

Tyranids die, and other tyranids eat them and are ready to go again in a matter or days or weeks.

Besides, the planet side fights really won't matter if it's just orcs and tyranids. I don't think the orcs would even be close to taking on the hive fleets in space.

Veldrain wrote:
Besides, the planet side fights really won't matter if it's just orcs and tyranids. I don't think the orcs would even be close to taking on the hive fleets in space.

Space Hulks and Asteroid Feilds.

Veldrain wrote:Because tyranids eat orks.

Orcs die, and leave spores which take a while to grow into fight ready ors.

Tyranids die, and other tyranids eat them and are ready to go again in a matter or days or weeks.

Besides, the planet side fights really won't matter if it's just orcs and tyranids. I don't think the orcs would even be close to taking on the hive fleets in space.

Don't underestimate Orks. Many of their enemies have that aren't around any more.

The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

Shrouger wrote:The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

And if more boyz can make it from neighbouring planets/systems to fight it out it gives more time for the spores to grow new boyz. Its meant to take a few months for spores to do their work. Days for new tyranid organisms to be grown.

Actually, Tyranids can reproduce in moments under certain circumstances.

Oh, and if the Jormungandr(can't remember how to spell) is any example of what the Hive Mind is capable of, for those of you who don't own a Tyranid codex, the Hive Mind flung asteroids at the planet. Yes, it FLUNG ASTEROIDS at a planet, along with it's Mycetic Spores, who's contents soon burrowed on impact. Honestly, Tyranids have their own "Rokk" attack now...

Shrouger wrote:The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

You realize that Hormagaunts lay eggs right?

-Loki- wrote:

Shrouger wrote:The Orks have several advantages:
For every one that dies, thousands of spores, and eventually tens of Orks, will be scattered across the planet. Contrarily, every Tyranid that dies replenishes only itself. If the kill ratio is about 1:1 (assuming the Tyranids bring their large bio-constructs to bear), then the Orks will gain a bonus of roughly 5-20 Boyz for each of them that falls. If the Orks can hold on to a few worlds long enough to establish a large enough population, they should have no problem holding the Tyranids at bay.

You realize that Hormagaunts lay eggs right?

Source?

As far as I know unless specified to do so (such as those new gaunt spawning beasties) no tyranids produce offspring other than norn queens.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hormagaunt

4th Paragraph down, read up!

Wow, when did that become canon?

corpsesarefun wrote:Wow, when did that become canon?

The current codex. Its in their description. When they make planetfall they lay the eggs. These rapidly mature and come out as a second wave after the initial one has done its work to wear down the enemy.

I don't have my 5th Ed. codex on me right now. So, it's either the 5th Ed. or 3rd Ed.

Oh ok then, I haven't read the new 'dex yet so that makes sense.

Spores take quite a while to grow to a boy. By that time, ripper swarms have drained the planet and the spores dry.

Even if the orcs do win, there are going to be so many planets that simply can't sustain life anymore that it won't really matter.

The Orks of Octarius: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Empire_of_Octarius

They seem to be holding out fairly well, arguably battling Hive Fleet Leviathan to a stand-still, despite reports of the Swarmlord joining the fray.

Question is whether this is a one off occurance, or the other Ork infested sectors could do this as well.

There is one other point; if the Orks have nothing else to fight (Chaos and C'tan are busy with each other, and all other races are either dead or in hiding), they'll turn their full might against the Tyranids. Granted, other Hive Fleets will ultimately arrive to support those currently in the galaxy, but by that time, the Orks will have rallied and embarked on a new Waaagh! with every Ork tribe within range of the Hive Fleets joining in.

The imperium of man will not fall. It's called the star child cycle.

The assumption is that the Imperium has fallen (hence the entire topic)

But for the sake of argument;
There are differing views regarding the Starchild; many Inquisitors deem the entire concept to be heresy, while others are advocating that the Emperor be allowed to die. At the moment, there is a great deal of uncertainty on the subject, so we will have to give most of the Inquisitors/High Lords of Terra the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Emperor's death would spell doom for humanity.

Actually the thing about Hormagaunts laying eggs was in the 2nd ed Codex. I'm pretty sure the fluff section in the current 5th ed codex is a copy job of the original stuff, given the current book also referenced Hormagaunts having 4 scything talons, like the original 2nd ed models, while the current ones only have 2.

There's also story, either in this Ed's book of the previous, about an Inquiisitor who wanted to slow down the advance of a particular Hive Fleet, and so lured it into a heavily Ork infested sector of space. It was a long fight, and succeeded in slowing down the Hive Fleet, but in the end the `Nids not only won, but came out much stronger from all the field testing and bonus Biomass.

Also, when you talk of Orks and their spores, keep in mind those spores are Biomass, and the `Nids will eat them before they grow.

Other than Macragg, has there been Any stories of a full blown `Nid invasion being stopped once they went planet side other than by destroying the planet via Exterminatus (which some `Nids have been known to survive still)?

But the Orks in more heavily populated areas will certainly be able to hold of the Tyranids long enough for at least some of the spores to successfully transform into Boyz. Additionally, as I mentioned before, the Tyranids present even greater potential for Waaagh! without end than Armaggedon (and look how many billions of Orks it drew). It seems safe to say that the Orks will easily last long enough for a new generation to replace the fallen.

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:The Orks of Octarius: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Empire_of_Octarius

They seem to be holding out fairly well, arguably battling Hive Fleet Leviathan to a stand-still, despite reports of the Swarmlord joining the fray.

Question is whether this is a one off occurance, or the other Ork infested sectors could do this as well.

Who do you think the rumored unknown force the Nids are running from are .

Aduro wrote: Other than Macragg, has there been Any stories of a full blown `Nid invasion being stopped once they went planet side other than by destroying the planet via Exterminatus (which some `Nids have been known to survive still)?

Depends what you define by 'full blown Tyranid invasion'.

There are multiple accounts of large splinter fleets having been defeated by Imperial Forces without resorting to Exterminatus, usually through a combination of Naval superiority, thus destruction of the Hive Ships (Although this has been achieved by Deathwatch insertion), and assassination of the more powerful creatures in the swarm that may lead it to victory regardless (Tyrants, any synapse creatures they can get their blades near.) This is generally only when Astartes join the battle against the swarm however, as it requires a precision ground-based strike with over-whelming force and speed.

The defence of Tarsis Ultra is one that really pops out (Portrayed in Warriors of Ultramar), as well as Aurelia if you include it (The planet DoWII is set on).

Macragge is the only Imperial defense against a full Hive Fleet I can think of however, although Kryptman is the reason that the Orks and the nids are going at it at the moment. The battle for the Octarius sector could go either way, the orks are holding their own, and it's been raging for quite some time, 10 years according to some sources, with neither side gaining the upper hand (Although the Saim-hann Eldar entered the fray and launched action against the Imperial and Ork worlds in the area, not the Devourer, so that might say the Orks are gaining the upper hand slowly with boyz flocking from all around the system to join in.), so that might just be joining the ranks soon.

Nids eat a planet's biomass so there will be no spores to develop later. Of course the nids would have to eat the remaining rock and debris too or the orks would come back later and spread spore over the bare rock which is how I assume they were able to combat the C'tan back in the day because the C'tan must have stripped all atmosphere from the planets they destroyed to prevent life re-establishing.

cadbren wrote:Nids eat a planet's biomass so there will be no spores to develop later. Of course the nids would have to eat the remaining rock and debris too or the orks would come back later and spread spore over the bare rock which is how I assume they were able to combat the C'tan back in the day because the C'tan must have stripped all atmosphere from the planets they destroyed to prevent life re-establishing.

Back in the day? The nids weren't apparently in the galaxy the last time the necrons were active.

He means back in the day when the C'tan were threatening to destroy the Old Ones/Brainboyz. It just shows that the Orks back then were able to resist the Star Gods, and that now that their technology has developed substantially (from a mixture of looting and scavenging) they should be able to stop the Tyranids dead in their tracks. Once they can set up a defensive line of sorts (basically a string of planets that the Tyranids cannot easily bypass or capture), they will receive periodic reinforcements from other systems and from the spores the fallen will inevitable produce.

Really though; the Orks have been fighting since before the Emperor was in nappies (to quote Ciaphas Cain), against foes just as implacable, if not more so, than the Tyranids.

"What if the tyranids aren't invading, but running..." - now that would be a good fight!

Please, the Eldar have survived worse than that! The Eldar would likley retreat into the Webway, fighting a gurilla war against both sides.

Maybe; but they would certainly take a more subdued role in the new balance of power. A few assassinations here, a hive ship sabotaged there, but only with the intention of ensuring their own survival. At some point, the Orks and/or Tyranids will realize what's happening and begin to anticipate more of the Eldar attacks.

End-game or semi-apocalyptic speculation in the scope of 40k is always...dodgy.

Anyway, if it came down to Orks vs. Tyranids, unless the Orks could fight together under a single Banna(?), they would be screwed. Tyranids(along with Necrons) have always been a game-ender race, at least in my mind, with fluff centering around how near-unstoppable they are unless met by a strong, unified defense.

Orks would definitely have the morale and numbers to hold out, at least for a bit, and obviously seeing as how it would one helluva fight, I can see Orks being very enthusiastic, to say the least. But in the end, I think their main downfall would come about because of the three things:

- Orks are scavengers/pilferers by nature, and without other races to get equipment, or at least raw materials from, they would suffer, logistically. Tyranids are one of the few races whose tech they can't make Orky.

- Naval battles would likely favor the Tyranids. I just don't see Orks, as a whole, being able to bring sufficient power to trake on Hive fleets in space, with the obvious exception of some hulks and the like, but how common are those..?

- With the Tyranids focusing on a single species, I can see them adapting at a horrific rate to combat the Ork's reproduction systems, maybe even the Waaagh itself(a bit of a farcry, but just thought I'd mention).

^None can challenge at least the first two points, nor the legion of linebreaks in this post.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
Anyway, if it came down to Orks vs. Tyranids, unless the Orks could fight together under a single Banna(?), they would be screwed. Tyranids(along with Necrons) have always been a game-ender race, at least in my mind, with fluff centering around how near-unstoppable they are unless met by a strong, unified defense.

And when there are only Nids the Orks will beat up the non-green first, this is a instinct not a choose on there part.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
- Orks are scavengers/pilferers by nature, and without other races to get equipment, or at least raw materials from, they would suffer, logistically. Tyranids are one of the few races whose tech they can't make Orky.

Painboyz are as good with BioTech as Mek are with Hard Tech, giving a chance they will Loot them, and the test subject can survive and work with there brain replaced with a squig. So replacing bit of Orks with Nids Biotech would happen.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
- Naval battles would likely favor the Tyranids. I just don't see Orks, as a whole, being able to bring sufficient power to trake on Hive fleets in space, with the obvious exception of some hulks and the like, but how common are those..?

Whole IoM fleets have been taken out by Ork fleets. Look a BFG for a really look at Ork ships, and best part they is the surprize attacks the savage dumb Orks seem to pull off all the time in space.

Ronin-Sage wrote:
- With the Tyranids focusing on a single species, I can see them adapting at a horrific rate to combat the Ork's reproduction systems, maybe even the Waaagh itself(a bit of a farcry, but just thought I'd mention).

LOL, any ways the unkonwn threat the Nid are running from are Ork from another galaxy, and there hoping the less organized Ork will show them a weakness.

Noir wrote:LOL, any ways the unkonwn threat the Nid are running from are Ork from another galaxy, and there hoping the less organized Ork will show them a weakness.

I like how you take one small quote from Codex Tyranids saying they might be running from something and turn it into they're running form organized Orks. I can quote out of context too.

Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy.

-Loki- wrote:

Noir wrote:LOL, any ways the unkonwn threat the Nid are running from are Ork from another galaxy, and there hoping the less organized Ork will show them a weakness.

I like how you take one small quote from Codex Tyranids saying they might be running from something and turn it into they're running form organized Orks. I can quote out of context too.

Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy.

You notice it was to his flight of fantasy that I said that, hmmm.... now can we figure out why I made this statment.

I think that the point with the Painboyz does effectively answer the argument regarding loss of technology. One other point however; the IOM has been destroyed, but its worlds remain. The Orks would be able to make use of the remaining technology (especially as there is no one to defend it) long enough for their Doks to find some way of melding Tyranid bits with Orks. But then, the Orks would be the equivalent of Tyranids... so the Tyranids still win, in a sense.

If 'nids absorbed the orks would they gain the built in tek genes?

How would a Pain-Boy be capable of "Looting" Tyranids? Sever off an arm which contains ichor capable of burning through armor and attach it to an ork?!

corpsesarefun wrote:If 'nids absorbed the orks would they gain the built in tek genes?

They've already absorbed countless Orks. They've discarded the bits they don't need. I assume anything relating to being good with technology is among what was discarded, since Tyranids make no use of it.

Footsloggin wrote:How would a Pain-Boy be capable of "Looting" Tyranids? Sever off an arm which contains ichor capable of burning through armor and attach it to an ork?!

Hard-wire controls into its head and control it. Sounds prett simple actually i might test it on my cat.

The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Kill the tyranid. Take its brain out. Replace it with an ork brain. It'll work because orks are doing it.

purplefood wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Kill the tyranid. Take its brain out. Replace it with an ork brain. It'll work because orks are doing it.

Like the brain transplants where a squig is placed inside an orks cranium and it works

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Kill the tyranid. Take its brain out. Replace it with an ork brain. It'll work because orks are doing it.

Like the brain transplants where a squig is placed inside an orks cranium and it works

I wasn't aware orks actually did that but i am happy they do.

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Kill the tyranid. Take its brain out. Replace it with an ork brain. It'll work because orks are doing it.

Like the brain transplants where a squig is placed inside an orks cranium and it works

I wasn't aware orks actually did that but i am happy they do.

Yeah the mad dok is a crazy mofo.

But then again, as soon as nids come in contact with such a creature, odds are, they know it's chemical composition, and it's weakness, thus voiding its utility in the force. I would think at least.

And as soon as they encounter such implementation of their own kind, wouldn't the Hive Mind just counter it, I.E. make their blood more acidic, volatile, cells that attack foreign cells?

Footsloggin wrote:But then again, as soon as nids come in contact with such a creature, odds are, they know it's chemical composition, and it's weakness, thus voiding its utility in the force. I would think at least.

And as soon as they encounter such implementation of their own kind, wouldn't the Hive Mind just counter it, I.E. make their blood more acidic, volatile, cells that attack foreign cells?

I honestly don't think the Orks would care. They would probably start making robot carnifexs and heirophants eventually... holy

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Kill the tyranid. Take its brain out. Replace it with an ork brain. It'll work because orks are doing it.

Like the brain transplants where a squig is placed inside an orks cranium and it works

I wasn't aware orks actually did that but i am happy they do.

Yup my Morker gang (GorkaMorka) had a biker with one after a visit to a Dok, after wards he got a habit of frenzying.

As for the Dok they would rip the Nid to pieces then take the Kool bit and then stich them onto the Ork or replace the limb with them. Remember weapon size isn't a issue normal boyz carry weapon that would be on vehicles in other armys (Lootaz), and there isn't a upper limit to how big a Ork can get. Endless War...... Waaagh!!!

Oh dear god, I can imagine the arms of Heirophants falling on armies!

What would really be interesting is seeing the Doks take on a Synapse Creature. A few failed experiments later, they might have a working Warrior-Ork hybrid.

-Loki- wrote:The problem with controlling a Tyranid like that is as soon as there's a synaptic link anywhere near it, it'll override whatever controls the Tyranid.

Unless the painboys lobotomize the bit of nidbrain that responds to synapse .... painboys would easily be able to do this.

The main tyranid tactic is evolution and numbers. They are the fastest evolving species in the galaxy, I'm sure they can evolve faster than an ork can synthesize tyranid parts to ork parts. The hive mind is the greatest leader in the galaxy after the emperor IMO. It can command all tyranid in the galaxy simultaneously without delay from distance. It adapts to near any threat thrown at it. The spores the orks make will just be ome biomass to make more tyranid. It was said in the fluff that a small nid fleet was nearly destroyed by mines and other defenses above an ork planet, they ended up making planet fall and starting a new fleet!

Thats because skarfang was slowed ....

If it comes down to just nids vs orks ghazghkull will be in charge, and da boyz will stomp those bugs flat.

P.s, ghaz would totally have murdered those dozen lictors that pwned skarfang

Many of the Pro-Tyranid arguments seem to be assuming that the Tyranids will just sweep through the Ork Empires, harvesting more and more biomass. Granted, many outposts will fall, but the larger worlds will be nearly impossible to subjugate quickly (since many of them will be abandoned IOM worlds that the Orks have claimed). With enough time, the Tyranids will throw more and more at these worlds, while the Waaagh! attracts countless Orks and every casualty means a ready made platoon within a matter of months. Ultimately, the Orks will realize that they need to burn the Tyranid corpses (reduced bio-mass to recycle if the Tyranids manage to take the area), meaning that every unsuccessful Tyranid assault from then on will just lose more biomass. Even those that are successful will certainly gain biomass, but not in the quantities they need to recoup their losses. It might take centuries, even millenia, but the Orks could well halt the Tyranid expansion (since it seems that the Orks of Octarius are holding their own against the Tyranid hive fleet, perhaps even winning)

I never even imagined it would be a landslide victory. Spores however do not hold ground, there is no argument against the fact however that Tyranid are more organized. I don't think the Orks will all band together IMO. They will start fighting each other over who is leader of this large Ork empire

Ronin-Sage wrote:Tyranids are one of the few races whose tech they can't make Orky.

Footsloggin wrote:How would a Pain-Boy be capable of "Looting" Tyranids? Sever off an arm which contains ichor capable of burning through armor and attach it to an ork?!

I beg to differ...

Fights at the top of the pile make little difference to the common Boyz; they'll keep fighting the Tyranids regardless of who leads them. Assuming Ghazkul (spelling?) survived, he'll likely lead a new Waaagh! without end against the Tyranids.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I never even imagined it would be a landslide victory. Spores however do not hold ground, there is no argument against the fact however that Tyranid are more organized. I don't think the Orks will all band together IMO. They will start fighting each other over who is leader of this large Ork empire

There would be a brief fight but as soon as their was an established leader the nids would be hit as hard as they hit others.

One thing I forgot to add in a previous post;

If we assume the IOM's worlds are not entirely destroyed, then the Orks will not simply loot what they need to maintain their technology. Rather, the Meks will begin scavenging ships and turning any surviving manufactories to their war effort. If every every Nob (and maybe some Boyz) has the opportunity to equip top of the line IOM weaponry (with some Orky know-wots to boot), they should individually be more than a match for most of the common Tyranid forms. Now give the Orks cyclone-missiles used by the Inquisition, and you'll have suicidal Orks dive bombing into the heart of the Hive Fleet, sowing confusion amidst the Tyranids.

Shrouger wrote:One thing I forgot to add in a previous post;

If we assume the IOM's worlds are not entirely destroyed, then the Orks will not simply loot what they need to maintain their technology. Rather, the Meks will begin scavenging ships and turning any surviving manufactories to their war effort. If every every Nob (and maybe some Boyz) has the opportunity to equip top of the line IOM weaponry (with some Orky know-wots to boot), they should individually be more than a match for most of the common Tyranid forms. Now give the Orks cyclone-missiles used by the Inquisition, and you'll have suicidal Orks dive bombing into the heart of the Hive Fleet, sowing confusion amidst the Tyranids.

Tyranids also adapt. Technology only goes so far as the Tau fight versus hive fleet gorgon showed. They had to keep adapting their tech and changing to outmoded or new gear and tactics to try and keep ahead of the hive fleets game.

Shrouger wrote:Many of the Pro-Tyranid arguments seem to be assuming that the Tyranids will just sweep through the Ork Empires, harvesting more and more biomass. Granted, many outposts will fall, but the larger worlds will be nearly impossible to subjugate quickly (since many of them will be abandoned IOM worlds that the Orks have claimed). With enough time, the Tyranids will throw more and more at these worlds, while the Waaagh! attracts countless Orks and every casualty means a ready made platoon within a matter of months. Ultimately, the Orks will realize that they need to burn the Tyranid corpses (reduced bio-mass to recycle if the Tyranids manage to take the area), meaning that every unsuccessful Tyranid assault from then on will just lose more biomass. Even those that are successful will certainly gain biomass, but not in the quantities they need to recoup their losses. It might take centuries, even millenia, but the Orks could well halt the Tyranid expansion (since it seems that the Orks of Octarius are holding their own against the Tyranid hive fleet, perhaps even winning)

Well, there's a fight going on like that in the fluff right now - the Octarius War. The Orks certainly aren't burning anything. They're doing what they do - fight. Tyranids are doing what they do - eat. It's basically a big stalemate. More Orks arrive. But that is just more food. So far, the Orks haven't shown any lateral thinking, doing things like burning bodies. They're just fighting. Even still, it's not only the Tyranid bodies they'd need to burn, it's the Ork bodies as well. And that deprives them of their natural reinforcment, since they're burning their own reproduction.

But the Tau hardly had the resources of the Imperium or the numbers of the Orks. Combine both qualities, and it should not be difficult to hold off the Tyranids. All it takes is one "lucky" pilot managing to ram into a hive ship and the fleet itself will be at risk of splintering.

Im really really tempted to do an ork army led by the mad dok and filled with ork/nid hybrids now

Shrouger wrote:But the Tau hardly had the resources of the Imperium or the numbers of the Orks. Combine both qualities, and it should not be difficult to hold off the Tyranids. All it takes is one "lucky" pilot managing to ram into a hive ship and the fleet itself will be at risk of splintering.

Well, aside from there being more than one hive ship per hive fleet, there's also the Battlefleet Gothic fluff that describes the main hive ships in the fleet being bigger than Imperial Battleships. You'd need to ram it with multiple Battleships, things that take the Imperium centuries, even millennia to replace. Orks have Space Hulks that are big, but they don't control them, they just ride them to their destination. No one is going to be ramming hive ships with anything big enough to damage it.

Even then, to even get to the hive ship, you're talking about running through hundreds of thousands of cruiser sized ships, escort sized ships, millions of spore mines... It's just not going to happen. Even with the main hive ship destroyed, fleets can recover. Codex Tyranids has fluff about hive fleets recovering from only having ground forces left, and ending up with a fleet again.

Well, there's a fight going on like that in the fluff right now - the Octarius War. The Orks certainly aren't burning anything. They're doing what they do - fight. Tyranids are doing what they do - eat. It's basically a big stalemate. More Orks arrive. But that is just more food. So far, the Orks haven't shown any lateral thinking, doing things like burning bodies. They're just fighting. Even still, it's not only the Tyranid bodies they'd need to burn, it's the Ork bodies as well. And that deprives them of their natural reinforcment, since they're burning their own reproduction.

The spores are scattered throughout the area; in the current fluff, they do not remain on the bodies. So after giving the corpses some time to release their spores, the Orks can still burn the bodies. My point was that the Orks will eventually figure it out; and if they're holding off the Tyranids without such tactics, then so much the better.

Well, aside from there being more than one hive ship per hive fleet, there's also the Battlefleet Gothic fluff that describes the main hive ships in the fleet being bigger than Imperial Battleships. You'd need to ram it with multiple Battleships, things that take the Imperium centuries, even millennia to replace. Orks have Space Hulks that are big, but they don't control them, they just ride them to their destination. No one is going to be ramming hive ships with anything big enough to damage it.

Even then, to even get to the hive ship, you're talking about running through hundreds of thousands of cruiser sized ships, escort sized ships, millions of spore mines... It's just not going to happen. Even with the main hive ship destroyed, fleets can recover. Codex Tyranids has fluff about hive fleets recovering from only having ground forces left, and ending up with a fleet again.

What if the Orks found some cyclone bombs? There are bound to be some left behind by the Inquisition (maybe already looted by the Orks as they capitalized on the IOM's demise). If they strap one to a Kill-Kroozer (which are maneuverable and could certainly make it through the first lines of defense), they could do some serious damage. Even if it doesn't make it into the heart of the Hive-Ship, it could clear the path for other ships to move in and destroy the Tyranids.

With regard to the time it takes to build an IOM ship; these are Orks here, not humans who bother about making sure the ship has stable life support or other such minor details. The Orks just need it to fly fast and have enough Dakka to blast most things to shreds; they could probably cobble together a fleet of such ships within a few decades. (If they're lucky, the Warp-presence of the Tyranids might draw some space-hulks to nearby systems )



One other point (not necessarily related). If the IOM has fallen, it follows that the Warp will be in complete turmoil, what with Chaos trying to claim every human soul. This will likely disrupt the Hive Mind's connection with its minions, weakening it substantially. On the other side, however, even if the Orks find themselves unable to navigate the Warp, they'll still continue to grow both in population and in technology (looting what remains of the Imperium's technology) while the Tyranids slowly starve without new worlds to devour. By the time the Warp is navigable once more, the Tyranids (who may have been forced to evolve into less powerful forms in order to conserve nutrients) will be faced with hordes of Orks who will jump at the opportunity to finally kill something that isn't green.

*Orks Aeronotica: Strapping guns and rockets to garbage dumpsters since M39!*

-Loki- wrote:

Shrouger wrote:But the Tau hardly had the resources of the Imperium or the numbers of the Orks. Combine both qualities, and it should not be difficult to hold off the Tyranids. All it takes is one "lucky" pilot managing to ram into a hive ship and the fleet itself will be at risk of splintering.

Well, aside from there being more than one hive ship per hive fleet, there's also the Battlefleet Gothic fluff that describes the main hive ships in the fleet being bigger than Imperial Battleships. You'd need to ram it with multiple Battleships, things that take the Imperium centuries, even millennia to replace. Orks have Space Hulks that are big, but they don't control them, they just ride them to their destination. No one is going to be ramming hive ships with anything big enough to damage it.

Even then, to even get to the hive ship, you're talking about running through hundreds of thousands of cruiser sized ships, escort sized ships, millions of spore mines... It's just not going to happen. Even with the main hive ship destroyed, fleets can recover. Codex Tyranids has fluff about hive fleets recovering from only having ground forces left, and ending up with a fleet again.

I think you're overstating the Tyranids numbers a bit.
And also Orks can and do control Space Hulks.
It's an even match. They are both evenly matched so it would basically be an insane amount of fighting across the galaxy.
However all the orks need to do is slip up once or twice in key areas and they would lose vast amount of planets and they wouldn't be able to reclaim them due to the whole "Airless ball of rock" thing... though they might just make a planet sized space hulk instead...

I think you're overstating the Tyranids numbers a bit.
And also Orks can and do control Space Hulks.
It's an even match. They are both evenly matched so it would basically be an insane amount of fighting across the galaxy.
However all the orks need to do is slip up once or twice in key areas and they would lose vast amount of planets and they wouldn't be able to reclaim them due to the whole "Airless ball of rock" thing... though they might just make a planet sized space hulk instead...

Though I certainly agree with your other statements, I'm not certain how evenly matched things are... The only way for the Tyranids to gain biomass is to conquer new worlds. But in order to do so, they must expend large quanties of biomass. If an Ork world is particularly well defended, it will hold off the Tyranids long enough to achieve two things;
1. The invasion will attract countless Orks, each hoping to join the new Waaagh! ( especially now that the 'umies have all been clobbered )

2. If the Tyranids take too long to conquer this world, they will begin to run out of biomass. As any ripper swarms they send to the surface will be killed before they can return to the ship, harvesting biomass will be difficult (increasingly so when the Tyranids have to hold off the Ork fleets from other systems).

Thus, one successfully defended world can severely impair the hive fleet; it's thrown billions of organisms at the defenders, but gained nothing of significance. The Hive fleet is like a modern day stock investor; it can expect great returns on average with certain strategies, but one failed venture (i.e the invasion of a planet) can set back the account significantly, or even bankrupt it.

Shrouger wrote:Though I certainly agree with your other statements, I'm not certain how evenly matched things are... The only way for the Tyranids to gain biomass is to conquer new worlds. But in order to do so, they must expend large quanties of biomass.

The galaxy isn't very populated. This starmap has a significant portion of the known 40k galaxy mapped. Not very much is actually mapped. The Tyranids are moving through countless uninhabited, or lightly inhabited, systems. They're not expending very much biomass until they hit a heavily fortified world.

Shrouger wrote:If an Ork world is particularly well defended, it will hold off the Tyranids long enough to achieve two things;
1. The invasion will attract countless Orks, each hoping to join the new Waaagh! ( especially now that the 'umies have all been clobbered )

2. If the Tyranids take too long to conquer this world, they will begin to run out of biomass. As any ripper swarms they send to the surface will be killed before they can return to the ship, harvesting biomass will be difficult (increasingly so when the Tyranids have to hold off the Ork fleets from other systems).

Thus, one successfully defended world can severely impair the hive fleet; it's thrown billions of organisms at the defenders, but gained nothing of significance. The Hive fleet is like a modern day stock investor; it can expect great returns on average with certain strategies, but one failed venture (i.e the invasion of a planet) can set back the account significantly, or even bankrupt it.

Except this is happening in the fluff right now. What you are describing isn't happening. Octarius is a major Ork system. The Tyranids may be locked in the conflict, but they're not losing. In fact, the codex flatly states that they are thriving in the conflict. Hardly the choice of words for Tyranids losing in protracted engagements with Orks. More Orks are showing up, Tyranids are consuming more, and evolving more.

The galaxy isn't very populated. This starmap has a significant portion of the known 40k galaxy mapped. Not very much is actually mapped. The Tyranids are moving through countless uninhabited, or lightly inhabited, systems. They're not expending very much biomass until they hit a heavily fortified world.

I don't see how that disproves what I am saying. The Tyranids still need biomass to survive, and the main way to get it is to attack a densely populated (and likely well-defended) world.

Except this is happening in the fluff right now. What you are describing isn't happening. Octarius is a major Ork system. The Tyranids may be locked in the conflict, but they're not losing. In fact, the codex flatly states that they are thriving in the conflict. Hardly the choice of words for Tyranids losing in protracted engagements with Orks. More Orks are showing up, Tyranids are consuming more, and evolving more.

But the Eldar (as stated by a previous poster) conducted attacks on the Orks, not the Tyranids. These attacks threatened to destablize the Ork Waaagh! significantly. However, I think we can both agree that the last thing the Eldar want is for the Tyranids to break through the Ork empire. Rather, they want to make sure neither side gains the upper hand by conducting surgical strikes to weaken whichever force has the advantage. In this case, the Orks were attacked, suggesting that they may not be as embattled as you suggest.

It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

-Loki- wrote: Except this is happening in the fluff right now. What you are describing isn't happening. Octarius is a major Ork system. The Tyranids may be locked in the conflict, but they're not losing. In fact, the codex flatly states that they are thriving in the conflict. Hardly the choice of words for Tyranids losing in protracted engagements with Orks. More Orks are showing up, Tyranids are consuming more, and evolving more.

Going to agree with Purple that you were overstating Tyranid numbers in a previous post. They may number many, but I don't think it's that many, otherwise the Imperium would never have enough ships in once place to launch a counter-assault.

As for the war on Octarius, while there is little reference to it in the Ork codex, there is evidence to suggest the whole thing is at the very least a giant stalemate, if not the Tyranids cannot gain the upper hand. The Swarmlord has been sighted in the sector, joining in the assault on the Orks.

Quoted from the Tyranid Codex, Swarmlord entry:

'The re-incarnation of the Swarmlord appears to be a stress-induced response by the Hive Fleets, one triggered when it's prey cannot be defeated through physical and biological adaption alone. Indeed, the Swarmlord was created with the express purpose of out-thinking the enemy and developing new strategies.'

This would suggest that the Hive Fleet, even if it is not in any immediate danger of dying out, cannot defeat the Orks through sheer physical means alone, or at least believes it cannot.

Other evidence is that, as I stated earlier, the Saim-hann Eldar have made strikes against the orks, not the tyranids. As it serves them no real purpose to have a insanely powerful Leviathan let loose upon the galaxy, it would be logical that this is to keep the stalemate, and prohibit the orks from gaining the upper hand to a point where the Overfiend could gather half the Orks in the galaxy behind him in a massive Waaagh, although this is really conjecture.

It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

But once the Tyranids reach a stalemate with the Orks, they will slowly begin to lose the war. For once the Orks realize that they need to burn their dead, a great deal of the biomass the Tyranids need is gone. Thus, you have a platoon of boyz created for every fallen Ork, with said Ork's body burned to destroy its value to the Hive Fleet. Once this happens, the Tyranids will begin to of biomass; it'll then become a matter of which side will exhaust its resources first.

Shrouger wrote:

It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

But once the Tyranids reach a stalemate with the Orks, they will slowly begin to lose the war. For once the Orks realize that they need to burn their dead, a great deal of the biomass the Tyranids need is gone. Thus, you have a platoon of boyz created for every fallen Ork, with said Ork's body burned to destroy its value to the Hive Fleet. Once this happens, the Tyranids will begin to of biomass; it'll then become a matter of which side will exhaust its resources first.

Also remember the Octarius war isn't just one planet now. Sure the orks lost a few planets but the hive fleet is now at a standstill fighting across many planets in the sector. The fighting is taking up most of the octarius empire and surrounding region.

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:Going to agree with Purple that you were overstating Tyranid numbers in a previous post. They may number many, but I don't think it's that many, otherwise the Imperium would never have enough ships in once place to launch a counter-assault.

As for the war on Octarius, while there is little reference to it in the Ork codex, there is evidence to suggest the whole thing is at the very least a giant stalemate, if not the Tyranids cannot gain the upper hand. The Swarmlord has been sighted in the sector, joining in the assault on the Orks.

Quoted from the Tyranid Codex, Swarmlord entry:

'The re-incarnation of the Swarmlord appears to be a stress-induced response by the Hive Fleets, one triggered when it's prey cannot be defeated through physical and biological adaption alone. Indeed, the Swarmlord was created with the express purpose of out-thinking the enemy and developing new strategies.'

This would suggest that the Hive Fleet, even if it is not in any immediate danger of dying out, cannot defeat the Orks through sheer physical means alone, or at least believes it cannot.

Other evidence is that, as I stated earlier, the Saim-hann Eldar have made strikes against the orks, not the tyranids. As it serves them no real purpose to have a insanely powerful Leviathan let loose upon the galaxy, it would be logical that this is to keep the stalemate, and prohibit the orks from gaining the upper hand to a point where the Overfiend could gather half the Orks in the galaxy behind him in a massive Waaagh, although this is really conjecture.

I agree, I did overstate the numbers in a Tyranid fleet - at least the ships. Considering that spore mines are used for offensive attacks like torpedos, formed into solid barriers like shields, used for boarding actions and planetary landings and more, millions of spore mines would be pretty accurate. They use them for literally everything in fleet engagements.

Also, codex Tyranids also says that the Octarius war is a stalemate. It was instigated by Inquisitor Kryptmann for entirely that purpose - occupy the Orks and a portion of Hive Fleet Leviathan in an endless stalemate. However, the idea that the Tyranids will die out in a prolonged stalemate is refuted in the fluff. That's what I was trying to argue against.

Shrouger wrote:

It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

But once the Tyranids reach a stalemate with the Orks, they will slowly begin to lose the war. For once the Orks realize that they need to burn their dead, a great deal of the biomass the Tyranids need is gone. Thus, you have a platoon of boyz created for every fallen Ork, with said Ork's body burned to destroy its value to the Hive Fleet. Once this happens, the Tyranids will begin to of biomass; it'll then become a matter of which side will exhaust its resources first.

You assume that the orks are what the Tyranids want to consume. On the contrary, it's the planets themselves in the Octarius system that the Tyranids want to consume. The Orks are just in the way. The Tyranids don't care about the Orks aside from the fact that they destroy the necessary life forms and structures that do the digesting.

The first wave of a Tyranid attack isn't military in any form - it's releasing spores into the atmosphere that make the plants and animals mutate and turn hyperfertile. Jungles overgrow to insane degrees, and the entire planets biosphere explodes in quantity. They don't need to eat the bodies of their dead or the bodies of the Orks. They eat the planet itself. So even if they're in a big stalemate, as long as they're not losing ground, the constantly growing and reproducing flora and fauna is still being funnelled up to the hive ships.

Then there's the fact that, while the attack is happening, rippers are simultaneously taking bodies to the digestion pools for pyrovores to reduce to raw biomatter. They don't fight, then when it's over, go reclaim bodies. It's happening all the time, during the fight.

Lexx wrote:

Shrouger wrote:One thing I forgot to add in a previous post;

If we assume the IOM's worlds are not entirely destroyed, then the Orks will not simply loot what they need to maintain their technology. Rather, the Meks will begin scavenging ships and turning any surviving manufactories to their war effort. If every every Nob (and maybe some Boyz) has the opportunity to equip top of the line IOM weaponry (with some Orky know-wots to boot), they should individually be more than a match for most of the common Tyranid forms. Now give the Orks cyclone-missiles used by the Inquisition, and you'll have suicidal Orks dive bombing into the heart of the Hive Fleet, sowing confusion amidst the Tyranids.

Tyranids also adapt. Technology only goes so far as the Tau fight versus hive fleet gorgon showed. They had to keep adapting their tech and changing to outmoded or new gear and tactics to try and keep ahead of the hive fleets game.

It also depends on who gets to the Imperium planets first. Theres realy no way to tell how that will be decided though. One thing that has always interested me about 'nids is that they have the ability to simply grow whatever they need. Maccrage was said to have used months of siege ammo in mere days. The 'nids can grow munitions and troops alike. What must also be considered; is how many ork planets will fall before they band together? That is alot of potential biomass. It is basically this, the Ork-Tyranid wars will last millinea, there is no way to decide who will win and there will always be two sides.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Shrouger wrote:One thing I forgot to add in a previous post;

If we assume the IOM's worlds are not entirely destroyed, then the Orks will not simply loot what they need to maintain their technology. Rather, the Meks will begin scavenging ships and turning any surviving manufactories to their war effort. If every every Nob (and maybe some Boyz) has the opportunity to equip top of the line IOM weaponry (with some Orky know-wots to boot), they should individually be more than a match for most of the common Tyranid forms. Now give the Orks cyclone-missiles used by the Inquisition, and you'll have suicidal Orks dive bombing into the heart of the Hive Fleet, sowing confusion amidst the Tyranids.

Tyranids also adapt. Technology only goes so far as the Tau fight versus hive fleet gorgon showed. They had to keep adapting their tech and changing to outmoded or new gear and tactics to try and keep ahead of the hive fleets game.

It also depends on who gets to the Imperium planets first. Theres realy no way to tell how that will be decided though. One thing that has always interested me about 'nids is that they have the ability to simply grow whatever they need. Maccrage was said to have used months of siege ammo in mere days. The 'nids can grow munitions and troops alike. What must also be considered; is how many ork planets will fall before they band together? That is alot of potential biomass. It is basically this, the Ork-Tyranid wars will last millinea, there is no way to decide who will win and there will always be two sides.

Definitely. They have pretty much set up another Mecca for orks to prove their prowess and for the tyranids to effectively have an endless biomass supply as long as more orks keep showing up to do so. Either way whoever gains the upper hand in otcarius will come out stronger. And to the Imperiums detriment unless in that time the Imperium has gained strength.

Taoofss wrote:It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

It all comes down to resource management. Nids utilize planets in a non renewable manner and have not been shown to utilize power from the stars. Orks can use the literally hundreds of millions of solar systems they control exclusively as troop supplies to reinforce the frontline systems. As soon as nids lose they die. Orks on the other hand can go almost any number of rounds as the punching bag.

The Orks can keep this up forever. I'd also like to add that Orks are capable of manufacturing munitions and so on and so forth. They are also the designers of weapons as deadly as anything the eldar can boast of (more so if you count user hazards harhar!)

-Loki- wrote:You assume that the orks are what the Tyranids want to consume. On the contrary, it's the planets themselves in the Octarius system that the Tyranids want to consume. The Orks are just in the way. The Tyranids don't care about the Orks aside from the fact that they destroy the necessary life forms and structures that do the digesting.

The first wave of a Tyranid attack isn't military in any form - it's releasing spores into the atmosphere that make the plants and animals mutate and turn hyperfertile. Jungles overgrow to insane degrees, and the entire planets biosphere explodes in quantity. They don't need to eat the bodies of their dead or the bodies of the Orks. They eat the planet itself. So even if they're in a big stalemate, as long as they're not losing ground, the constantly growing and reproducing flora and fauna is still being funnelled up to the hive ships.

A stalemate is a stalemate. If the Orks lose this system the whole thing starts again on the next one. If the nids lose they're gone. There are more verified Ork worlds then there are tyranid splinter fleets.

But really, nids can't eat the Orks. It will soon be revealed that the nids are indeed fleeing a greater threat than that which the imperium has ever witnessed. An Ork Waaaaghhh! led by MORK himself. Because it is kunning but brutal for a God of the warp to smash you with his fist in the material plane.

Scrabb wrote:A stalemate is a stalemate. If the Orks lose this system the whole thing starts again on the next one. If the nids lose they're gone. There are more verified Ork worlds then there are tyranid splinter fleets.

It's a single tendril of Leviathan. Not even the full Hive Fleet. If they lose, Leviathan just keeps on going. They stay in a stalemate, Leviathan just keeps on going.

But Orks thrive on war, they grow much larger and stronger in a week of fighting, my bets with orks because they can make an endless amount of them and Nids need to constantly take in more biomass to reproduce.

Wow everyone keeps talking in circles... the same point brought up over and over and over again for like the last page and a half.

See alot of fanboy ranting back and forth with alot of "what ifs" and "THIS is what would happen" with no real hard evidence. Read this (^) whole page and you'll see one huge example of "my dad can beat up ur dad"ism.

To break down the above; its a stalemate, eventually one will win but its impossible for us to say who as the two forces are so closely matched biologically, tactically, and resorce wise.

So how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?!

Laughing God wrote:Wow everyone keeps talking in circles... the same point brought up over and over and over again for like the last page and a half.

See alot of fanboy ranting back and forth with alot of "what ifs" and "THIS is what would happen" with no real hard evidence. Read this (^) whole page and you'll see one huge example of "my dad can beat up ur dad"ism.

To break down the above; its a stalemate, eventually one will win but its impossible for us to say who as the two forces are so closely matched biologically, tactically, and resorce wise.

So how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?!

I agree with this.
But.
What's a tootsie pop?

I agree with this.
But.
What's a tootsie pop?

It is an american treat consisting of a hard-candy lollipop with a chocolate center. Not bad actually.


I can certainly see the roundabout thinking; a lot of my arguments and those I was countering hinged on speculation, which, however logical, remains just that. Everyone just cast your vote for either Tyranids or Orks, and I'll close this debate.

Hang on... a lolipop with chocolate in the middle? That sounds weird... and slightly horrible.

It's actually not, sometimes it's a chocalate hard candy, with a tootsie roll chocolate in the middle. Albeit the roll is a ball. They are actually pretty good.

"How many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know..." The slogan...



ANYWAY, on topic. GW will continue to put out positive stories for both sides. Nids may get new units, and Orks new weapons, but the war will remain where it is, with minor fluff advancements. Again, my 2 cents.

ANYWAY, on topic. GW will continue to put out positive stories for both sides. Nids may get new units, and Orks new weapons, but the war will remain where it is, with minor fluff advancements. Again, my 2 cents.

true, that. I doesn't seem that GW will ever advance the storyline to include a full-on war between Orks and Tyranids (meaning both sides throwing in virtually everything they have)

It would be awesome though...

Truth be told, it would, but wiping out a race *SQUATS!!* is not something GW would want to repeat, sure, they don't HAVE to wipe out a race, but progression along the "Fluff-line" will be "Tyranids take Ork X planet by doing Y!" and "Orks crush Tyranid splinter fleet Z by accidentally destroying an entire planet!"

As far as fluff goes, it's like A bloodthirster being charged by 30 gaunts... A tarpit which takes forever to continue. Voiding your chance of a potentially good un...I mean story continuation.

Orks will never lose cuz orks are da best.

No really, the tyranids have to consume several corpses to get enough biomass to make even a single gaunt, and the orks have an infinite supply of orks from nearby systems while the orks already on Octarius simply grow stronger and bigger off of the war. However, GW will probably have the war never end so forgeworld can make a new IA for the war.

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:A stalemate is a stalemate. If the Orks lose this system the whole thing starts again on the next one. If the nids lose they're gone. There are more verified Ork worlds then there are tyranid splinter fleets.

It's a single tendril of Leviathan. Not even the full Hive Fleet. If they lose, Leviathan just keeps on going. They stay in a stalemate, Leviathan just keeps on going.

The tyranids increase in number (or replenish losses) by taking planets and absorbing their bio-matter. Then they move on to the next target. Everything they will ever get from that planet they have now gotten. If any individual fleet or tendril is overwhelmed by numbers or a megaweapon or what have you it is gone. If an Ork Waaagh is crushed there are still orks from wherever the crusade started.

I apologize that my message was unclear. I didn't do a good job separating that specific location and the generalities of the situation.


@laughing God: You are of course correct about the fanboyism. I don't know that people have stopped having interesting things to say though. When does a competition between an insane psychic race of genetically engineered superwarriors and an unstoppable fleet of hyper-evolutionary superpredators get boring?

Lol, if forgeworld writes it, we will have a great storyline, but with crazy OTT units on speed and crack. My Carnifex has the ability to take all the options it could in 4th Ed. WTF?!?!

Orks will never lose cuz orks are da best.

No really, the tyranids have to consume several corpses to get enough biomass to make even a single gaunt, and the orks have an infinite supply of orks from nearby systems while the orks already on Octarius simply grow stronger and bigger off of the war. However, GW will probably have the war never end so forgeworld can make a new IA for the war.

Exactly. The Tyranids are really just niche predators; they need to take worlds in quick succession to maintain their supply of biomass (the organisms need to eat, after all). Once these worlds become difficult to conquer, the Hive Mind is in jeopardy. For every world they fail to conquer, they lose their entire biomass "investment", meaning that they will be forced to retreat with the Waaagh! at their heels.

If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Taoofss wrote:If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Orks are everywhere.
They will probably take over a good amount of the IoMs worlds if it falls. The nids wll have to fight on practically every planet they land on.

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Orks are everywhere.
They will probably take over a good amount of the IoMs worlds if it falls. The nids wll have to fight on practically every planet they land on.

Not really. If you look at the star map, Orks are not everywhere.

Taoofss wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Orks are everywhere.
They will probably take over a good amount of the IoMs worlds if it falls. The nids wll have to fight on practically every planet they land on.

Not really. If you look at the star map, Orks are not everywhere.

It doesn't show where all the Orks are though. As soon as they invade a planet that planet will never be free of them unless it gets exterminatus-ed.
Orks are spread far and wide across the galaxy.
It would be nearly impossible to confine them to a corner of the galaxy.

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Orks are everywhere.
They will probably take over a good amount of the IoMs worlds if it falls. The nids wll have to fight on practically every planet they land on.

Not really. If you look at the star map, Orks are not everywhere.

It doesn't show where all the Orks are though. As soon as they invade a planet that planet will never be free of them unless it gets exterminatus-ed.
Orks are spread far and wide across the galaxy.
It would be nearly impossible to confine them to a corner of the galaxy.

Every world the Tyranids take are stripped of spores, meaning orks won't rise from that planet again. If the Tyranids face a tough sector of orks, then they could try and attack other, less defended areas.

Scrabb wrote:

Taoofss wrote:It all comes down to resource consumption. Orks need raw materials to build space crafts. Nids do so with biomass. As long as nids have enough food, they can planet hop. Orks on the other hand need metals and fuel and what not.

It all comes down to resource management. Nids utilize planets in a non renewable manner and have not been shown to utilize power from the stars. Orks can use the literally hundreds of millions of solar systems they control exclusively as troop supplies to reinforce the frontline systems. As soon as nids lose they die. Orks on the other hand can go almost any number of rounds as the punching bag.

The Orks can keep this up forever. I'd also like to add that Orks are capable of manufacturing munitions and so on and so forth. They are also the designers of weapons as deadly as anything the eldar can boast of (more so if you count user hazards harhar!)

-Loki- wrote:You assume that the orks are what the Tyranids want to consume. On the contrary, it's the planets themselves in the Octarius system that the Tyranids want to consume. The Orks are just in the way. The Tyranids don't care about the Orks aside from the fact that they destroy the necessary life forms and structures that do the digesting.

The first wave of a Tyranid attack isn't military in any form - it's releasing spores into the atmosphere that make the plants and animals mutate and turn hyperfertile. Jungles overgrow to insane degrees, and the entire planets biosphere explodes in quantity. They don't need to eat the bodies of their dead or the bodies of the Orks. They eat the planet itself. So even if they're in a big stalemate, as long as they're not losing ground, the constantly growing and reproducing flora and fauna is still being funnelled up to the hive ships.

A stalemate is a stalemate. If the Orks lose this system the whole thing starts again on the next one. If the nids lose they're gone. There are more verified Ork worlds then there are tyranid splinter fleets.

But really, nids can't eat the Orks. It will soon be revealed that the nids are indeed fleeing a greater threat than that which the imperium has ever witnessed. An Ork Waaaaghhh! led by MORK himself. Because it is kunning but brutal for a God of the warp to smash you with his fist in the material plane.

Wow I cant even take that theory seriously.... theres also the theory that these hive fleets that have been witnessed so far are just tendrils of the actual fleet. The theory they are running is fine, just not from Orks.

Shrouger wrote:

Orks will never lose cuz orks are da best.

No really, the tyranids have to consume several corpses to get enough biomass to make even a single gaunt, and the orks have an infinite supply of orks from nearby systems while the orks already on Octarius simply grow stronger and bigger off of the war. However, GW will probably have the war never end so forgeworld can make a new IA for the war.

Exactly. The Tyranids are really just niche predators; they need to take worlds in quick succession to maintain their supply of biomass (the organisms need to eat, after all). Once these worlds become difficult to conquer, the Hive Mind is in jeopardy. For every world they fail to conquer, they lose their entire biomass "investment", meaning that they will be forced to retreat with the Waaagh! at their heels.

However, you are still going on the idea of a Hive Fleet hitting in one single thrust. Only Behemoth ever did this. Hive fleets now split into 'tendrils'. If one gets beaten, it hardly matters, since the rest of the Hive Fleet is killing things. It will just grow another splinter fleet.

Also, the only Ork vs Tyranid conflict in the fluff is the Octarius war, and it is a long, drawn out stalemate. What you keep saying would happen in a drawn out stalemate with Orks is not happening.

Also, the only Ork vs Tyranid conflict in the fluff is the Octarius war, and it is a long, drawn out stalemate. What you keep saying would happen in a drawn out stalemate with Orks is not happening.

This has only been happening for about a decade. Give the Orks time; if it took us mere days to consider all of this, the Orks should be able to figure it out within a few more years.

Shrouger wrote:

Also, the only Ork vs Tyranid conflict in the fluff is the Octarius war, and it is a long, drawn out stalemate. What you keep saying would happen in a drawn out stalemate with Orks is not happening.

This has only been happening for about a decade. Give the Orks time; if it took us mere days to consider all of this, the Orks should be able to figure it out within a few more years.

Great. When it's written in a codex or rulebook, let us know.

Great. When it's written in a codex or rulebook, let us know.

It's all a matter of logic. GW will likely never put such a scenario (post IOM war between Tyranids and Orks) into a codex or rulebook because doing so would mean losing the IOM, along with their precious Space Marines.

Mr Nobody wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If the Imperium falls, then there will be a countless supply of worlds ripe with biomass. Nids could just stalemate orks in one sector while accumulating biomass in another. Or they can just choose to ignore orks all together for a time, then once they have a large enough force, overwhelm Ork empires.

Orks are everywhere.
They will probably take over a good amount of the IoMs worlds if it falls. The nids wll have to fight on practically every planet they land on.

Not really. If you look at the star map, Orks are not everywhere.

It doesn't show where all the Orks are though. As soon as they invade a planet that planet will never be free of them unless it gets exterminatus-ed.
Orks are spread far and wide across the galaxy.
It would be nearly impossible to confine them to a corner of the galaxy.

Every world the Tyranids take are stripped of spores, meaning orks won't rise from that planet again. If the Tyranids face a tough sector of orks, then they could try and attack other, less defended areas.

I did say that once before.
And if the Nids go somewhere Orks will probably follow them.
But if either the Orks or Nids mess up they will lose a lot of reasources in either planets or biomass.

With regard to the entire issue of splinter fleets; the more heavily divided they are (reducing the overall cost if they are defeated), the easier it will be for the Orks to eliminate them. The Tyranids may not be devastated by the loss of a hive fleet, but it certainly can't begin expending them left and right. So my point regarding the cost of failed invasions still stands.

With this conflict, GW made themselves a nice little stalemate to fuel the already seemingly never ending war and keep the fluff going to boost sales. Kudos to them

I don't think GW even knows who will win... Now I am sure there are running bets between co-workers around their office, but the official GW stand point would want no one to win, ever; and keep sales going as long as possible.

So, my fan boyishness says the Tyranids would win.

Simply because they are forever evolving. The bugs we see in the codex are just the ones that have worked well for The Hive Mind thus far. Those are the Tyranids that have proven to be useful time and time again in the past. However, once they are no longer useful for whatever reason, it is then that The Hive Mind will make something new. A creature we have not seen before, evolved specifically to counter Orks. If it goes too long as a stalemate, even with The Swarmlord hanging around, then the new bugs will emerge.

Examples of things I would do to counter the Ork threat if I where The Hive Mind:

1) A bug that spits out the same digestive acids as the digestion pools. Instead of dragging corpses back and forth, bring the digestion pool to the front line. Also, if the Ork is completly covered head to toe in the goo, then their spores cant escape to make new Orks.

2) People talked about Orks "looting" Tyranid bioweapons. Well, how about the reverse? All it would take is one Norn Queen to crack the DNA code that allows Orks to reproduce with spores. Apply that bio-tech, kill one Carnifex, and hundreds of Ripper spores launch into the air and start to feed, and grow, and spawn more Ripper spores. (Perhaps Venomthorpes are already an example of the Ork spore bio-tech being hijacked by Nids)

3) How about smaller Tyranids? Since the Orks are really bad shots any way, the smaller the bug, the harder it is for the Boyz to shoot.

How quickly do the Tyranids evolve, though (I do not own the Codex)? Just a rough approximation in generations between significant mutations would be fine.
Also, do they have complete control over their own evolution, or is it a natural phenomenon similar to natural selection?

1) A bug that spits out the same digestive acids as the digestion pools. Instead of dragging corpses back and forth, bring the digestion pool to the front line. Also, if the Ork is completly covered head to toe in the goo, then their spores cant escape to make new Orks.

These creatures sound a bit vulnerable to me (their internal reclamation pools likely make them easy targets for Tank-Bustas). All it takes is one Ork push through the gaunts, and they can shoot/smash/stomp/chop the pool, depriving the Tyranids of their biomass.

Additionally, unless the goo is extremely toxic and thus the cause of death, the Orks will have already released their spores by the time they are ready to be digested.

3) How about smaller Tyranids? Since the Orks are really bad shots any way, the smaller the bug, the harder it is for the Boyz to shoot.

But if the Tyranids field them in the numbers necessary to overwhelm the Orks, said Orks can just shoot blindly at the carpet of organisms. In fact, a few Burnas could probably make short work of such swarms (I hope the reclamation pools can handle barbecue ). While very small forms could probably orverwhelm an Ork through sheer numbers, if they're anything like Rippers, they'll likely starve before they even reach the Ork line. The Organisms that can reach their prey will be large enough for the Boyz to grip easily and snap in two.

Shrouger wrote:How quickly do the Tyranids evolve, though (I do not own the Codex)? Just a rough approximation in generations between significant mutations would be fine.
Also, do they have complete control over their own evolution, or is it a natural phenomenon similar to natural selection?

As far as I know, a Norn Queen simply has to think about what she wants, and a new Tyranid steps out of the digestion pool in a matter of moments. So technically there would be no evolution over generations, it simply would happen over night maybe. The only delay would be the amount time it takes for the new brood to get to the front line. Complete and total control over every drop of claimed bio-mass, it only has to be processed through digestion in one of the pools and the Norn Queen can do anything she wants with it.

Shrouger wrote:

1) A bug that spits out the same digestive acids as the digestion pools. Instead of dragging corpses back and forth, bring the digestion pool to the front line. Also, if the Ork is completely covered head to toe in the goo, then their spores cant escape to make new Orks.

These creatures sound a bit vulnerable to me (their internal reclamation pools likely make them easy targets for Tank-Bustas). All it takes is one Ork push through the gaunts, and they can shoot/smash/stomp/chop the pool, depriving the Tyranids of their biomass.
Additionally, unless the goo is extremely toxic and thus the cause of death, the Orks will have already released their spores by the time they are ready to be digested.

I do see what you are saying, but my tactics would have this new digestion vomiting creature doing suicide missions. Have it run as far as it canto the front line and explode. The Biomass is already processed and a new pool can start making fresh troops in moments. The idea IS for them to get close, if they are exploded a little prematurely that is okay too.

The way I picture the goo, it is very toxic and acidic, so once the Ork is covered, death is painful and spores are dissolved too. The goo itself is already processed and ready for Norn Queen instruction on what to produce. If something is covered in the goo then it is only a moment or before that bio-mass is processed too. Once it explodes, there are hundreds of mid-sized digestion pools all over the place for Norn Queens to tap into and use to create fresh troops. These pools are also closer for fresh corpses to be tossed into and again, more troops. The tinier puddles from the resulting explosion would make Rippers who then proceed to gather more bio-mass for the larger pools.

Shrouger wrote:

3) How about smaller Tyranids? Since the Orks are really bad shots any way, the smaller the bug, the harder it is for the Boyz to shoot.

But if the Tyranids field them in the numbers necessary to overwhelm the Orks, said Orks can just shoot blindly at the carpet of organisms. In fact, a few Burnas could probably make short work of such swarms (I hope the reclamation pools can handle barbecue ). While very small forms could probably overwhelm an Ork through sheer numbers, if they're anything like Rippers, they'll likely starve before they even reach the Ork line. The Organisms that can reach their prey will be large enough for the Boyz to grip easily and snap in two.

HAHA My last idea here was mostly just a joke at the Orks. :Theoretically though, the nids could go as small as germs, and release into the air what ever virus it is that makes genestealer cults . Then they don't have to fight the Orks, it would be one big Greenstealer Cult.

What I don't understand is the first three pages of this post. It's mostly hard Tyranid fact versus countless what if situations for the Orks. How likely is it that all Orks will hold hands and band together? Even if they did, there is no coherent war strategy, there is only fighting. If there is a strange occurrence on the battlefield, the Norn Queen knows immediately due to the Hive Mind and its faculties. All it has to do is think counter - Pop! A new brood!- and the new brood is on its way in a mycetic spore. We know this. It's a fact. Not, "Well if A and B come together, and C happens, then we throw in a little D and hope the other side does E, this could work." If there is a galaxy wide war, the Hive Mind allows us to know what is happening across the entire galaxy just as it is happening. The Orks, as quirky and fun as they may be, simply do not possess that kind of intellect. And besides, the fluff on Hive Ships is insane. The ship itself will eat you, never mind the fact that it, "simultaneously vomits broods of Genestealers and Hormagaunts." The only reason the Imperium fended off Behemoth (other than the fact that GW is a SM driven company that will stop at nothing to make them look good and wants to make money off of it) is because the Dominius Astra detonated its Warp Drives, killing it and the Hive Fleet. As for the ground forces, well, the fluff is terrible. Three paragraphs basically say all major military locations were taken and that Macragge was pretty much doomed. Then the Space Marines land and find Calgar beat the Tyranids. How? We don't know. Not even GW could come up with a thought of how they won because even THEY know it makes no sense.

Sorry I got on a SM hating rage. Basically it feels like in order to win the Orks need better planning than the Tyranids, have to make their own space ships that can best the hive ships, and need the speed of adaptation that the Tyranids have. None of which they have. Now if Orks and Tyranids teamed up against something...

Psyker_9er wrote:

Shrouger wrote:How quickly do the Tyranids evolve, though (I do not own the Codex)? Just a rough approximation in generations between significant mutations would be fine.
Also, do they have complete control over their own evolution, or is it a natural phenomenon similar to natural selection?

As far as I know, a Norn Queen simply has to think about what she wants, and a new Tyranid steps out of the digestion pool in a matter of moments. So technically there would be no evolution over generations, it simply would happen over night maybe. The only delay would be the amount time it takes for the new brood to get to the front line. Complete and total control over every drop of claimed bio-mass, it only has to be processed through digestion in one of the pools and the Norn Queen can do anything she wants with it.

Shrouger wrote:

1) A bug that spits out the same digestive acids as the digestion pools. Instead of dragging corpses back and forth, bring the digestion pool to the front line. Also, if the Ork is completely covered head to toe in the goo, then their spores cant escape to make new Orks.

These creatures sound a bit vulnerable to me (their internal reclamation pools likely make them easy targets for Tank-Bustas). All it takes is one Ork push through the gaunts, and they can shoot/smash/stomp/chop the pool, depriving the Tyranids of their biomass.
Additionally, unless the goo is extremely toxic and thus the cause of death, the Orks will have already released their spores by the time they are ready to be digested.

I do see what you are saying, but my tactics would have this new digestion vomiting creature doing suicide missions. Have it run as far as it canto the front line and explode. The Biomass is already processed and a new pool can start making fresh troops in moments. The idea IS for them to get close, if they are exploded a little prematurely that is okay too.

The way I picture the goo, it is very toxic and acidic, so once the Ork is covered, death is painful and spores are dissolved too. The goo itself is already processed and ready for Norn Queen instruction on what to produce. If something is covered in the goo then it is only a moment or before that bio-mass is processed too. Once it explodes, there are hundreds of mid-sized digestion pools all over the place for Norn Queens to tap into and use to create fresh troops. These pools are also closer for fresh corpses to be tossed into and again, more troops. The tinier puddles from the resulting explosion would make Rippers who then proceed to gather more bio-mass for the larger pools.

These units sound an aweful lot like Pyrovores... actually, they sound like what Pyrovores intend to do, but fail at due to crappy points costs/statline/rules etc. In the fluff, they are great. And you're right, new brood mutations are created with relative ease and rapidly.

Justus wrote: What I don't understand is the first three pages of this post. It's mostly hard Tyranid fact versus countless what if situations for the Orks. How likely is it that all Orks will hold hands and band together? Even if they did, there is no coherent war strategy, there is only fighting. If there is a strange occurrence on the battlefield, the Norn Queen knows immediately due to the Hive Mind and its faculties. All it has to do is think counter - Pop! A new brood!- and the new brood is on its way in a mycetic spore. We know this. It's a fact. Not, "Well if A and B come together, and C happens, then we throw in a little D and hope the other side does E, this could work." If there is a galaxy wide war, the Hive Mind allows us to know what is happening across the entire galaxy just as it is happening. The Orks, as quirky and fun as they may be, simply do not possess that kind of intellect. And besides, the fluff on Hive Ships is insane. The ship itself will eat you, never mind the fact that it, "simultaneously vomits broods of Genestealers and Hormagaunts." The only reason the Imperium fended off Behemoth (other than the fact that GW is a SM driven company that will stop at nothing to make them look good and wants to make money off of it) is because the Dominius Astra detonated its Warp Drives, killing it and the Hive Fleet. As for the ground forces, well, the fluff is terrible. Three paragraphs basically say all major military locations were taken and that Macragge was pretty much doomed. Then the Space Marines land and find Calgar beat the Tyranids. How? We don't know. Not even GW could come up with a thought of how they won because even THEY know it makes no sense.

Sorry I got on a SM hating rage. Basically it feels like in order to win the Orks need better planning than the Tyranids, have to make their own space ships that can best the hive ships, and need the speed of adaptation that the Tyranids have. None of which they have. Now if Orks and Tyranids teamed up against something...

You claim about how preposterous orks fighting off tyranids is. Then go on to say about them teaming up? I'd Find them teaming up more ridiculous. Orks are the ultimate survivor/warrior race. The tyranids a huge killing machine/super predator. It seems a pretty good match up for them to duke it out.

What I don't understand is the first three pages of this post. It's mostly hard Tyranid fact versus countless what if situations for the Orks. How likely is it that all Orks will hold hands and band together? Even if they did, there is no coherent war strategy, there is only fighting. If there is a strange occurrence on the battlefield, the Norn Queen knows immediately due to the Hive Mind and its faculties. All it has to do is think counter - Pop! A new brood!- and the new brood is on its way in a mycetic spore. We know this. It's a fact. Not, "Well if A and B come together, and C happens, then we throw in a little D and hope the other side does E, this could work." If there is a galaxy wide war, the Hive Mind allows us to know what is happening across the entire galaxy just as it is happening. The Orks, as quirky and fun as they may be, simply do not possess that kind of intellect. And besides, the fluff on Hive Ships is insane. The ship itself will eat you, never mind the fact that it, "simultaneously vomits broods of Genestealers and Hormagaunts." The only reason the Imperium fended off Behemoth (other than the fact that GW is a SM driven company that will stop at nothing to make them look good and wants to make money off of it) is because the Dominius Astra detonated its Warp Drives, killing it and the Hive Fleet. As for the ground forces, well, the fluff is terrible. Three paragraphs basically say all major military locations were taken and that Macragge was pretty much doomed. Then the Space Marines land and find Calgar beat the Tyranids. How? We don't know. Not even GW could come up with a thought of how they won because even THEY know it makes no sense.

Sorry I got on a SM hating rage. Basically it feels like in order to win the Orks need better planning than the Tyranids, have to make their own space ships that can best the hive ships, and need the speed of adaptation that the Tyranids have. None of which they have. Now if Orks and Tyranids teamed up against something...

The Orks will instinctively band together against a common threat; they only fight each other when there is no other enemy. Not only that, Orks do have their own system of selecting a good leader; in order to rise to control an actual Waaagh!, an Ork must be strong, but also cunning. The entire concept of Waaagh! is that it is a crusade, generally with a set intention (the conquest of Armageddon, the destruction of the Tau, etc.). The Orks on average may not be the brightest creatures in the galaxy, but their leaders are typically intelligent, even by human standards.

There was an endless stalemate until...

the new ork codex came and gave the boyz a decent initiative value

then the nids knew all was lost as ork boyz whipped genestealers with 10 S-10 I-10 attacks per boy, and stompas were no longer apocalypse and came in mobs costing 6 points per stompa with 4 destroyer attacks in close combat and giga shootas

Much as I wish the Boyz had such power, let's keep this realistic.

I do agree with the Initiative issue, though.

Haha the Ork's lack the potential to be cool at all, so that statement is far from realistic. Ork's lose in every story they have ever been in this one should be no different. Tyranid's are far more organized, vicious, awesome, not to mention the hive-mind. Hive-mind has un-paralleled commanding abilities and cn command all Tyranid simultaneously.

Also it has been witnessed that Tyranid are run from a losing battle, this would make the theory of them running from a greater force very slim.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

scrabb wrote:
But really, nids can't eat the Orks. It will soon be revealed that the nids are indeed fleeing a greater threat than that which the imperium has ever witnessed. An Ork Waaaaghhh! led by MORK himself. Because it is kunning but brutal for a God of the warp to smash you with his fist in the material plane.

Wow I cant even take that theory seriously.... theres also the theory that these hive fleets that have been witnessed so far are just tendrils of the actual fleet. The theory they are running is fine, just not from Orks.

Neither do I.


There are a few things I'd like to add to this discussion. Firstly, in the numbers game between orks and nids there are more known orks than nids in the galaxy. The number of nids in galaxy may be 40%, 10%, 5% 1% or almost zero percent of all nids total ever. They may all already be here. They may be running from a greater power, they may not be. So right now, orks can completely overpower what nids there are in the galaxy.

Next, I'd like to respond to the complaint that ork players are using "what ifs" in a "what if" matchup between them where the imperium has mysteriously been destroyed already. Orks are widely represented in fluff of needing a catalyst in order mass together in the numbers necessary to fight the tyranids. The tyranids are this catalyst. It is as probable that the orks will attack the nids as it is the nids will evolve during the ensuing fight.

Finally, I want to say having an uber hyper-intelligent consciousness that can bio genetically create anything it can imagine and replicate that perfectly and efficiently is awesome, but doesn't mean that if ten dudes get hit by a disintegration beam the hive mind will be able to spend ten minutes remaking all the troops with the exact same combat effectiveness and maneuverability, not increase biomass cost, and make the troopers immune to that disintegration beam. It's just not happening. Does anyone remember that superman villain doomseday? His origin story is that, as a baby, he was dropped on a hideously dangerous planet, full of poisonous, powerful, and wicked creatures. Ten seconds later he was dead. His dna was extracted and they recreated him as a more perfect being. They did this ten million times until he could take superman on in a fight. Thereafter, whenever he was beaten by anyone or anything, the next time he was better than whatever had beaten him and won. Doomseday is lame. Tyranids are not lame. Tyranids are not doomseday.

cheers

Scrabb wrote:Finally, I want to say having an uber hyper-intelligent consciousness that can bio genetically create anything it can imagine and replicate that perfectly and efficiently is awesome, but doesn't mean that if ten dudes get hit by a disintegration beam the hive mind will be able to spend ten minutes remaking all the troops with the exact same combat effectiveness and maneuverability, not increase biomass cost, and make the troopers immune to that disintegration beam. It's just not happening. Does anyone remember that superman villain doomseday? His origin story is that, as a baby, he was dropped on a hideously dangerous planet, full of poisonous, powerful, and wicked creatures. Ten seconds later he was dead. His dna was extracted and they recreated him as a more perfect being. They did this ten million times until he could take superman on in a fight. Thereafter, whenever he was beaten by anyone or anything, the next time he was better than whatever had beaten him and won. Doomseday is lame. Tyranids are not lame. Tyranids are not doomseday.

cheers

Surely they can't evolve and adapt that quickly! Wait...

As the hive fleet sails relentlessly on through
space, it is continually evolving to meet the
enemies that it faces. Individual organisms
adapt and refine themselves with each new
encounter, while the hive ships perpetually alter
the morphology of the new organisms birthed
by the fleet. As such, the hive fleet is a
continually changing mass, both individually
and collectively.

“We fought them the first day, and our guns
tore through them with ease. We fought
them the second day and saw our missiles bounce
off a thickened skin they seemed now to bear, so
we turned out lances on ‘em. We fought them the
third day, and no cursed thing worked!”

They are some of the easier to read quotes about their adaptability and selective evolution. And that's from BFG describing fleet level evolution.

Codex Tyranids has a short bit about Hive Fleet Gorgon. I've cut out the boring bits regarding the Tau themselves.

With every battle, fresh iterations of Tyranids emerged, each new variant perfectly adapted to overcome a particular foe or circumstance.

...

The Tyranids adapted to more than just his doctrines and deployments, they moved to counter the Tau weaponry itself. In response to the powerful pulse rifles of the Tau warriors, carapace was restructured, bone recombined and tissue reknitted, dramatically increasing the Tyranids resistance to Tau ordnance.

...


However,each time a weakness was found, the Tyranid biomatrix shifted once more.

Footsloggin wrote:These units sound an awful lot like Pyrovores... actually, they sound like what Pyrovores intend to do, but fail at due to crappy points costs/statline/rules etc. In the fluff, they are great. And you're right, new brood mutations are created with relative ease and rapidly.

And that is part of my point too actually. The means to defeat the Orks (or any race) are already there, just behind the scenes. It is just a small DNA skip and a jump from a Biovore to a Pyrovore, and then from there in to the mobile digestion pool / command center like I described. They could even put this digestive soup in to a Mycetic Spore and even if it is shot out of the sky it will still rain acidic goo every where. Of course this is all just fan boy made up stuff I am talking about, but The Hive Mind can do practically anything...

I mentioned it before, but In my opinion, the end game move that the Tyranids can do to win, hands down, once and for all: Crack the genetic DNA code that allows Orks to reproduce with spores.

The dead Tyranid host can be recycled in a digestion pool like normal, but the spores have already been released. Hiding and growing (just like the Ork Spore), feeding and learning (just like the Ork Spore), once the Tyranids make planet fall they would never leave (just like the Ork Spore).

But that is just my opinion, and I don't think GW will ever do it... They want the war to go on for a very very long time.

-Loki- wrote:
Surely they can't evolve and adapt that quickly! Wait...

Lots of examples of extremely rapid evolution and adaptation by tyranids

I didn't say they couldn't make all their termagaunts adamantiumguants in ten minutes. I didn't say they don't/can't constantly adapt their battlefield tactics to the situation. I said they couldn't do it without compromise. Tougher = slower or more energy consumption. Getting shot by a bullet doesn't allow a nid to have bulletproof armor (unless is has evolved a bullet absorption template, which it probably has! ).

I mean, a splinter fleet gets obliterated by some insane superweapon that tractor beams a star into it. Does the hive mind of that fleet plate all it's ships in indestrucium? Why didn't it already have that activated if it can? If it couldn't but now can what new information did it get? Does it have enough actual indestructium to plate all the ships with? Where did it come from? If the entire process is nids get hurt/lose/feel sad then EVOLUTION and they can't get hurt/win/feel happy than tyranids are beyond lame.

I like to interpret many of those pieces as the hivemind accessing files on similar enemies it has defeated and assimulated in the past and rebooting the good stuff. I like to think the heavy weapons not working on day two means they've slowed down consumption of world number fifty billion by three percent to give heavy armor to units attacking the strongest pockets of resistance.

All IMO of course.

Scrabb wrote:I like to interpret many of those pieces as the hivemind accessing files on similar enemies it has defeated and assimulated in the past and rebooting the good stuff. I like to think the heavy weapons not working on day two means they've slowed down consumption of world number fifty billion by three percent to give heavy armor to units attacking the strongest pockets of resistance.

All IMO of course.

While they need to store the information of what they are fighting to recall later, they still do evolve quickly to new threats. The bit about fighting the Tau - that's the first time they were fighting against Tau. They had never been shot by those weapons or fought against those tactics before. Yet they evolved protection simply in the short time between engagements. They couldn't recall those evolutions, since they didn't exist yet.

That is an excellent point, Scrabb. The Ork Codex clearly states (direct quote):
"... It is only a matter of time before the Orks unite once and for all to drown the stars in a torrent of mindless violence."

What better reason to unite than an actual threat to Ork-kind? Because of all these reasons that have been provided to explain why Tyranids are deadlier than Orks, said Orks will drop their own petty wars and rally against the 'Nids. GW will do everything it can to make every race seem like the most powerful in the galaxy in order to entice players; what they have to say about the power of various species is typically exaggerated relative to what is reflected in the actual game and in the Black Library novels. Now that we have that out of the way, let's continue debating this point logically without quoting arbitrarily from the Codex. Both sides can and are making good arguments without relying on quotes from the rulebooks and refusing to extrapolate.


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While they need to store the information of what they are fighting to recall later, they still do evolve quickly to new threats. The bit about fighting the Tau - that's the first time they were fighting against Tau. They had never been shot by those weapons or fought against those tactics before. Yet they evolved protection simply in the short time between engagements. They couldn't recall those evolutions, since they didn't exist yet.

Who's to say they had not encountered a similar race at some point? The Imperium has discovered and destroyed countless races not disimilar to the Tau; it would not be impossible for the Tyranids to attack and devour some race that either traded with the Tau or had developed similar tech independently (it's bound to happen when you have thousands of races all trying to live in the same galaxy)

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:I like to interpret many of those pieces as the hivemind accessing files on similar enemies it has defeated and assimulated in the past and rebooting the good stuff. I like to think the heavy weapons not working on day two means they've slowed down consumption of world number fifty billion by three percent to give heavy armor to units attacking the strongest pockets of resistance.

All IMO of course.

While they need to store the information of what they are fighting to recall later, they still do evolve quickly to new threats. The bit about fighting the Tau - that's the first time they were fighting against Tau. They had never been shot by those weapons or fought against those tactics before. Yet they evolved protection simply in the short time between engagements. They couldn't recall those evolutions, since they didn't exist yet.

So I guess we can rate the hivemind as a billion super geniuses who work round the clock

Still, according to canon the tau are alive and well despite those mutations and they're a germ in the grand scheme of things.

@Shrouger: You're right that chest pumping passages don't really help anything. How many guaranteed victors are there? Half of all factions? But the codex information contains most of the information we need to do any conjecture.

Scrabb wrote:Still, according to canon the tau are alive and well despite those mutations and they're a germ in the grand scheme of things.

That would be because an Imperial reinforcment fleet for the Damocles Crusade arrived and allied with the Tau.

I think it's hilarious how the only time the 'Nids develop race specific counters is against the Tau; where are all the lasgun immune gaunts?

-Loki- wrote:

Scrabb wrote:Still, according to canon the tau are alive and well despite those mutations and they're a germ in the grand scheme of things.

That would be because an Imperial reinforcment fleet for the Damocles Crusade arrived and allied with the Tau.

Hey, racial ability: does not become desperate enemies with every sapient force ever encountered is a good trait to have.

Retribution wrote:I think it's hilarious how the only time the 'Nids develop race specific counters is against the Tau; where are all the lasgun immune gaunts?

They don't need to develop lasgun immunity. Everything in 40k has it naturally.

Scrabb wrote:
I mean, a splinter fleet gets obliterated by some insane super weapon that tractor beams a star into it. Does the hive mind of that fleet plate all it's ships in indestrucium? Why didn't it already have that activated if it can? If it couldn't but now can what new information did it get? Does it have enough actual indestructium to plate all the ships with? Where did it come from? If the entire process is nids get hurt/lose/feel sad then EVOLUTION and they can't get hurt/win/feel happy than tyranids are beyond lame.

I like to interpret many of those pieces as the hivemind accessing files on similar enemies it has defeated and assimilated in the past and rebooting the good stuff. I like to think the heavy weapons not working on day two means they've slowed down consumption of world number fifty billion by three percent to give heavy armor to units attacking the strongest pockets of resistance.

All IMO of course.

I would say that the Hive Mind is not "all knowing", but merely "all remembering" like your data file idea so to speak, with a good portion of creative problem solving to boot. Which would explain why a fleet being obliterated by that insane star hurling super weapon would not be thought of before hand by the Hive Mind. Not to mention that the technology for a super weapon like that is, for lack of better words, 'alien' to Tyranids; so again, it wouldn't have been thought of in advance to already equip the fleet with the needed protective armor. It was mentioned a few pages back, and I might be wrong with the time line, but I think after that incident the Hive Mind then started figuring out ways to hurl planets/meteorites as well... So lesson learned.

Once info is processed by the Hive Mind, it is sent to the Norn Queens for immediate production of new broods. The old broods already on the field eventually get the same instructions and can either climb back in to the digestion pool for revamping, or do what minor adjustments they can do to themselves internally with what they already have. As for the fleet ships, the Norn Queen is already inside with plenty of digestive goo for a complete and almost instant remodeling of the whole ship when needed.

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:
I mean, a splinter fleet gets obliterated by some insane super weapon that tractor beams a star into it. Does the hive mind of that fleet plate all it's ships in indestrucium? Why didn't it already have that activated if it can? If it couldn't but now can what new information did it get? Does it have enough actual indestructium to plate all the ships with? Where did it come from? If the entire process is nids get hurt/lose/feel sad then EVOLUTION and they can't get hurt/win/feel happy than tyranids are beyond lame.

I like to interpret many of those pieces as the hivemind accessing files on similar enemies it has defeated and assimilated in the past and rebooting the good stuff. I like to think the heavy weapons not working on day two means they've slowed down consumption of world number fifty billion by three percent to give heavy armor to units attacking the strongest pockets of resistance.

All IMO of course.

I would say that the Hive Mind is not "all knowing", but merely "all remembering" like your data file idea so to speak, with a good portion of creative problem solving to boot. Which would explain why a fleet being obliterated by that insane star hurling super weapon would not be thought of before hand by the Hive Mind. Not to mention that the technology for a super weapon like that is, for lack of better words, 'alien' to Tyranids; so again, it wouldn't have been thought of in advance to already equip the fleet with the needed protective armor. It was mentioned a few pages back, and I might be wrong with the time line, but I think after that incident the Hive Mind then started figuring out ways to hurl planets/meteorites as well... So lesson learned.

Once info is processed by the Hive Mind, it is sent to the Norn Queens for immediate production of new broods. The old broods already on the field eventually get the same instructions and can either climb back in to the digestion pool for revamping, or do what minor adjustments they can do to themselves internally with what they already have. As for the fleet ships, the Norn Queen is already inside with plenty of digestive goo for a complete and almost instant remodeling of the whole ship when needed.

But is the fleet now immune to suns exploding or not? And if they are did it cost them anything?

Scrabb wrote:But is the fleet now immune to suns exploding or not? And if they are did it cost them anything?

Well, the first fleet of biomass that got hit with the star, I would say is gone and lost for good. After that, the other ships would only be adding to what is already in place, or breaking down and redesigning things, so it would a be minimal loss of resources. As for being immune to being hit with a star... I can't honestly answer that, it is a freaking star we are talking about after all ... But the point is, even large scale complete revamping of entire fleets is done in the most effective manner using the least amount of resources or simply recycled with no resource loss.

One point that we seem to be overlooking; every time the 'Nids fail an attack, they do not simply lose biomass, they jumpstart the growth of any Ork boyz that survived. Given the constant state of war between the two races, any Orks that survive even a few years can easily expect to reach Ghazkul's size. The Tyranids are not only significantly increasing the birthrates among Orks by killing them in droves (so long as the Orks hold the world, of course), they are ensuring that the survivors form a ready made corps of Nobz.

Also, given the various mutations the Tyranids will likely have, they will significantly alter Ork kultur.

1. Orks in this war will have to be cunning as well as brutal to survive, meaning that the Ork leaders will develop a new standard of intelligence. These intellectually superior bosses will be better able to respond to the Tyranid mutations.

2. With the spree of looting that will follow the IOM's fall, more progressive clans like the Death Skulls and Blood Axes will thrive; the Snakebites, meanwhile, will likely be overwhelmed by the Tyranids, while the Goffs and Bad Moons will be forced to accept the virtues of the fellow clans, meaning that the concepts of strategy and technology will come to the forefront. Combined with the previous change to Ork society, we can safely assume that the Orks will begin to adopt a more strategic mindset.
-Subpoint: The Octarius Orks will adopt such strategies because they are Blood Axes, and therefore value intelligence and strategy. Source: Lexicanum

Additionally, if Ghazkul is still alive (we assume for the sake of argument that he is), he will lead a new Waaagh! against the Tyranids with the same vision with which he engulfed Armageddon in endless war. As simply overwhelming the enemy is out of the question, Ghazkul will likely recognize the importance of strategy against this new foe and surround himself with Blood Axe bosses, supporting social change #2.

With regard to Tyranid adaptation; the Ork Meks are constantly innovating (Ghazkul made wide-spread use of teleporters to bring down ground troops the battle for Armageddon, something the Imperium with all its resources has never done), meaning they can at least partially counter the evolution of the Tyranids. Essentially, they are combining a curiosity and need to invent on par with that of the Tau with resources and manpower even greater than the Imperium.

Here is a hypothetical technology the Orks could easily put to use;

A "Rok Cannon" (they may already have something like this); huge Dakka mounted onto looted Imperium ships or Space Hulks that fires actual Rok's into enemy ships. The damage done by each rok that makes it past the spore mines is tremendous, and each Rok can then begin blasting at the insides of the Tyranid ship, all the while unloading Boyz to keep the 'gaunts at bay. The teleporter relay built into each Rok (like those used during the second war for Armageddon) could bring a near endless supply of Orks onboard the ship. With the Roks as a beachead, the Orks could push through the ship, doing serious damage and forcing the Tyranids to redirect their efforts towards defending their own fleet rather than attacking the Ork world. Of course, at least the first waves of boyz would need Burnas to stop the ship from absorbing any fallen Orks.

Just an idea for the Ork navy.

I'll step off now.

Shrouger wrote:One point that we seem to be overlooking; every time the 'Nids fail an attack, they do not simply lose biomass, they jumpstart the growth of any Ork boyz that survived. Given the constant state of war between the two races, any Orks that survive even a few years can easily expect to reach Ghazkul's size. The Tyranids are not only significantly increasing the birthrates among Orks by killing them in droves (so long as the Orks hold the world, of course), they are ensuring that the survivors form a ready made corps of Nobz.
Here is a hypothetical technology the Orks could easily put to use;

One point everyone seems to overlook is also this - The Orks are not the primary source of biomass consumed. Sure, it adds to it, but the land held by the Tyranids is hyperproductive. This is initiated in the first phase of the Tyranid invasion, spores enter the atmosphere (that actually are dangerous to non-Tyanid life too) which promote hyperactive growth in the plant life of the planet. As long as Tyranids hold ground on the planet, they have a constant supply of biomass from the plants that are constantly growing and pollinating.

Shrouger wrote:A "Rok Cannon" (they may already have something like this); huge Dakka mounted onto looted Imperium ships or Space Hulks that fires actual Rok's into enemy ships. The damage done by each rok that makes it past the spore mines is tremendous, and each Rok can then begin blasting at the insides of the Tyranid ship, all the while unloading Boyz to keep the 'gaunts at bay. The teleporter relay built into each Rok (like those used during the second war for Armageddon) could bring a near endless supply of Orks onboard the ship. With the Roks as a beachead, the Orks could push through the ship, doing serious damage and forcing the Tyranids to redirect their efforts towards defending their own fleet rather than attacking the Ork world. Of course, at least the first waves of boyz would need Burnas to stop the ship from absorbing any fallen Orks.

Cool technology. Which the Tyranids already have, and have already used as well. Hive Fleet Naga threw asteroids at a planet to not only cause significant damage to defences, but also to mask its mycetic spores from anti-aircraft fire.

There's also plenty of Tyranid life forms still on the hive Ships for defense. This is actually the primary purpose of Tervigons. They patrol the Hive Ships and overproduce swarms of Termagants in reaction to a boarding, and also use their synaptic link to attract other Tyranids from around th ship.

Tyranids can also use the same tactic on the Orks. Throw asteroids at the Ork ships, with trails of mycetic spores full of heavy assault creatures to board Ork ships. Or even, you know, catch those roks and throw them back, which would be the same as catching a moving asteroid to throw at a planet.

One point everyone seems to overlook is also this - The Orks are not the primary source of biomass consumed. Sure, it adds to it, but the land held by the Tyranids is hyperproductive. This is initiated in the first phase of the Tyranid invasion, spores enter the atmosphere (that actually are dangerous to non-Tyanid life too) which promote hyperactive growth in the plant life of the planet. As long as Tyranids hold ground on the planet, they have a constant supply of biomass from the plants that are constantly growing and pollinating.

That won't stop the two from killing each other. The Orks will fight the Tyranids out of instinct, and the Tyranids will fight back in order to secure the bionass.

Also, it is impossible for plants to grow and pollinate at those extraordinary rates indefinitely, otherwise they would all have evolved to such a point, leaving animal evolution at a much more primitive level. At some point, the plants will die out, with the planet's nutrients completely depleted; the Tyranids can be sustained for a few months at most by a single world, after which time the planet will be completely barren. The Orks can repopulate it with the various fungi they carry with them, but the to the Tyranids, it is completely useless.

Tyranids can also use the same tactic on the Orks. Throw asteroids at the Ork ships, with trails of mycetic spores full of heavy assault creatures to board Ork ships. Or even, you know, catch those roks and throw them back, which would be the same as catching a moving asteroid to throw at a planet.

But Tyranid roks do not have Dakka, do they? I think that using Roks as ship-to-ship ammunition would likely remain the domain of the Orks.

Concering catching the Roks; there is a subtle difference between catching a chunk of rock and ice moving relatively slowly in orbit and catching a typically much larger chunk of ice and rock with deflector shields and blazing guns hurtling along at incredible speeds, accelerated by the Hive Ship's gravity and the force of the Rok-Cannon.

Of course, if I was the Hive Mind, the whole thing would be over by now

A Rok cannon filled with Orks blasting away may seem like a good thing to launch in to the middle of a Hive Fleet... But the Tyranid ships don't rely on standard naval combat tactics like the Imperium or other races who stay distant and launch missiles etc.... Tyranids use basically the same tactic as the Rok cannon, the Hive ships actually close in on the enemy ships to grab a hold and suck out the biomass inside. The Hive ships also have huge massive tentacles every where that could potentially harmlessly catch the Rok being shot at them... So shooting Rok cannons at them really only brings the biomass closer.

Which is why you should try throwing stars at them instead... It works better... The first few times any way

Good thinking by the way Shrouger, I can tell you kind of feel the same way I do: If only you where Ghazkul this would all be over by now right?

This is actually kind of fun, trying to out think each other.

I agree the Ork would eventually band together for the greatest WAAAGH! of all time! And the battle could actually be a stalemate that lasts for hundreds of years with out ever getting resolved. Not just because GW wants to boost sales, but because Orks and Nids are so well matched for complete universal carnage.

I still say Tyranids have the upper hand with the instant evolution though.

I was kind of joking before when I was talking about making the Nids so small the Boyz can't shoot them... But really think about that. A swarm of billions upon billions of mosquito sized Nids clouding out the sun and eating everything in their path. Swarming into your mouth and nostrils, climbing down in to your lungs while you are being stung by hundreds of biting venomous bugs.... The Nids already have this bio-technology, they already shoot bugs like this out of other bug guns, so why not just make an army out of them instead. The biomass from one Carnifex could produce a couple million easily.

Good thinking by the way Shrouger, I can tell you kind of feel the same way I do: If only you where Ghazkul this would all be over by now right?

This is actually kind of fun, trying to out think each other.

Exactly. I am truly enjoying this as well.

Which is why you should try throwing stars at them instead... It works better... The first few times any way

The Orks could probably upgrade their ships with that kind of technology; they use it to draw space hulks toward their worlds, after all. It would require a huge amount of resources, but with the materials they would have scavenged from the IOM's worlds, it would certainly be possible.

I do think that swarms of mosquito sized Tyranids would be a deadly weapon, but there is an issue with creating them, however. Given the extremely fast metabolisms of most small Tyranid bio-constructs (Raveners, for example), it is likely that they would die within a few seconds/minutes of leaving the nourishment of a larger organism. That aside, the Orks could find some relatively easy ways of countering them. All the orks need are some burnas and/or enclosed vehicles, the former because they would make short work of these 'Nid, the latter because they would offer protection against them long enough to bring adequate weapons to bear.

Something like a zzap gun would be even better, come to think of it; it transfers electric current through the air. The organic material (water, iron etc) in these mosquitos would make them excellent conducters of energy; and if they happen to be flying in a dense swarm...

As far as superior evolution is concerned; the GW team do not represent it for obvious reasons of cost and time, but Meks are constantly creating new and deadly weapons. With literally trillions of metric tons of looted AM tech, a good team of Meks and Lootas (probably numbering in the thousands) could cobble together hundreds of new weapons each day, ranging from a faster shoota to a Shock Attack gun that always rolls double sixes for strength (getting the Rargh! effect, of course, which seems possible given the intense activity in the Warp now that the IOM has fallen). Just beginning to consider what Orks could do with plasma tech, I've found some uses;
Plasma-burnas: why not? The technology is probably already there, just waiting for some Meks to convince the Boyz to use it.
Plasma-Dakka: Literally dozens of IG plasma cannons welded to ships or Stompas to create massive cannons capable of blowing a major hole in virtually any Tyranid formation, whether on the ground or in space.

In one of the ultramarine books, the imperial navy grabs two huge plasma converting space stations and rig them as bombs. The first one gets thrown at the hive fleet, then while the fleet is attacking it the navy bombbards it, blowing several hive ships and a nice chunk of the fleet to bits.

The next time they try it the hive ships avoid it and four specially designed ships grab hold and fling it back at the imperial lines. By screening it with drones and lesser ships they prevent the imperial bombardment from destroying it until the tyranids detonate it, taking a good percentage fo the imperial fleet with it.

Really good tactics tend to only work once against tyranids. I don't think flinging Roks would be effective for long. In the end, each battle tyranids win they grow much stronger. Each battle orcs win, they grow much stronger. In the end its gonna be a stalemate with the losser lossing because of huge mistakes or just being outwitted.

I still say tyranids win out, orcs have to much infighting between the clans and can be baited into traps to easily.

I still say tyranids win out, orcs have to much infighting between the clans and can be baited into traps to easily.

When faced with a common enemy, Orks rarely fight amongst themselves. Inter-clan warfare is the result of boredom on the part of the Orks when they are unable to find other foes to vanquish. As far as being baited into traps; though the common Boy will certainly be tricked easily, Warbosses, particularly Blood Axes, are actually the ones who set the traps. Consider Gazhkul Thraka (actually a Goff, interestingly enough); during the War for Armageddon, he took a seemingly useless stretch of corrosive water in the industrial wastes far away from the Hives. Even Commissar Yarrik, a well respected strategist, did not know what to expect, and was entirely surprised when Ghazkull overwhelmed a Hive along the coast with a fleet of submarines he had his meks cobble together in the "useless" waters further upstream.

And yet, Skarfang, the Pirate Warboss on Ghorala in the same system, was assassinated by the Tyranids simply because he didn't use tactics. The Tyranids pissed him off by using simple feint attacks. When he got pissed off and charged out, they trapped his entire bodyguard using Venomthropes to obscure their vision, and then Lictors to kill them.

Which is why I remarked in a previous post that after a few decades to weed out the idiots, the average Ork leader would be significantly more intelligent.

How useful is a "few decades" anyway? If the Orks would want to stand a fair chance against Tyranids they need good generals now, not later. We constantly change, even during the same battle. How useful is an army led by "idiots" against the devious intellect of the Hive Mind? Just food for thought.

And they do have them; Gazhkul Thraka, for instance. He has exhibited extraordinary strategic intelligence, even by human standards, and it is likely he will survive to lead the Orks against the Tyranids. The issue is more with regard to the tribal level; it is at this point that the Orks do have time on their hands; the Hive Ships are slow compared to Ork Space-Hulks, and so long as they have a good leader to direct general movements, individual battles will hinge less on the intellect of the Warbosses directly involved. It certainly helps, but it will not be so essential that the Orks cannot afford a few years for natural selection to take its course.

wrote: We constantly change, even during the same battle. How useful is an army led by "idiots" against the devious intellect of the Hive Mind? Just food for thought

We constantly change, even during the same battle...

We...

Has a brood brother unwittingly revealed himself to us? Is earth, even now under assault by the nefarious tyranid menace? Call the bloodaxes! No more words! This contest will be decided by force of arms!

Time traveling 'Nids... And I wanted to see middle age.

Scrabb wrote:

wrote: We constantly change, even during the same battle. How useful is an army led by "idiots" against the devious intellect of the Hive Mind? Just food for thought

We constantly change, even during the same battle...

We...

Has a brood brother unwittingly revealed himself to us? Is earth, even now under assault by the nefarious tyranid menace? Call the bloodaxes! No more words! This contest will be decided by force of arms!

OMG, your right. They could be all around us!

Yes, there is obviously a limit to what the Hive-mind can do. However memories have no downside.... being able to recount your loss and death to a foe and learning from that has no negative effects and this is what every Tyranid creature can do. Someone said earlier that the arrival of the Swarmlord meant the 'nids are losing or something along those lines. This is far from why it would show up, stress induced is a broad term, there is no doubt the Orks will be the toughest fight in this galaxy so far so the Hive-mind is going to want to get it over with. So why not send your second in command into a green thriving area of space just FILLED with biomass?

There are a few things I'd like to add to this discussion. Firstly, in the numbers game between orks and nids there are more known orks than nids in the galaxy. The number of nids in galaxy may be 40%, 10%, 5% 1% or almost zero percent of all nids total ever. They may all already be here. They may be running from a greater power, they may not be. So right now, orks can completely overpower what nids there are in the galaxy.

This is true, but not all these Orks will be in every battle, they simply cant be. If the 'nids are attacking an Ork occupied planet the Orks 500 million light-years away don't matter. The thing about the Tyranids is that they are all in this Hive fleet and a good portion of a tendril is released onto just one planet. I dont know much of Ork populations but a Tyranid assault consists of billions of creatures in a single battle, wouldn't they outnumber the Orks of a single world?

Also, I think I may have already pointed this out (I cant remember) but the theory on 'nids running from something greater really doesn't make sense, when do they run from battles they are losing?

Can orks 'sporify' inside of hive ships? Or inside other beings at all?

Can orks 'sporify' inside of hive ships? Or inside other beings at all?

As far as I know, spores can reside virtually anywhere. If the Orks were able to take control of a Hive Ship, they could hypothetically redesign it to their own tastes using the rapid growing fungus that springs up around settlements.

If a Hive Ship became infested with Orks, the Hive mind would probably just destroy the ship. They know when there's something they don't want (eg the Ymgarl Genestealers).


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Shrouger wrote:

While they need to store the information of what they are fighting to recall later, they still do evolve quickly to new threats. The bit about fighting the Tau - that's the first time they were fighting against Tau. They had never been shot by those weapons or fought against those tactics before. Yet they evolved protection simply in the short time between engagements. They couldn't recall those evolutions, since they didn't exist yet.

Who's to say they had not encountered a similar race at some point? The Imperium has discovered and destroyed countless races not disimilar to the Tau; it would not be impossible for the Tyranids to attack and devour some race that either traded with the Tau or had developed similar tech independently (it's bound to happen when you have thousands of races all trying to live in the same galaxy)

Just saw this, so...

They have vanguard organisms that infiltrate ahead of the fleet, and send back information (eg Lictors). If they saw that Tau were using similar technology to what they'd previously encountered, then they'd have shown up with suitable defensive mutations, not reactively adapted after each battle to whatever new weapon the Tau brought out.

The spores cannot "infest" Hive ships. How would Ork spores survive in space? Devoid of Oxygen, and no pressure? Can a normal ork jump out into space without a helmet?

Footsloggin wrote:The spores cannot "infest" Hive ships. How would Ork spores survive in space? Devoid of Oxygen, and no pressure? Can a normal ork jump out into space without a helmet?

Don't know much about spores do you, and yes Orks can for short amout of time servive in space.

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Footsloggin wrote:The spores cannot "infest" Hive ships. How would Ork spores survive in space? Devoid of Oxygen, and no pressure? Can a normal ork jump out into space without a helmet?

Apparently Fighta-bombers operate fine with the crew compartment being unpressurised and semi open to space. So Surviving in space for short periods doesn't seem much of a problem for orks.

I'd like to take a side moment to discuss the fact that the Nids come from a different unknown galaxy. It is not too far off topic since we are talking about the far future in the future of the 40k future. LOL.

Some people speculate, and think it is "speculated" in the codex as well, that the Tyranids are on the run from something. I don't have my codex with me at the moment, but if it is mentioned in the codex, then it is most likely a marketing ploy of GW to keep us on our toes. Then again, what isn't a GW marketing ploy.

But let us explore that idea a little bit... If, and I do mean IF, the Nids are running from something, then what ever it is, has got to be at least 20 times worse than the Nids themselves. Anything that can put fear into the heart of the Hive Mind would be able to over power the Orks and the Nids combined IMO. If this unknown force is actually and actively chasing after the Nids, we would have a whole new can of worms to talk about which would be off topic. I think it was mentioned by some one on this thread that it could be Orks the Nids are running from. Doubt it... Why would the Hive Mind run from one group of Orks, just to stop and fight a different group of Orks? So if they are being chased out of the galaxy by something, IMO it is beyond our mortal comprehension to know what that thing is, and let us pray it wont follow the Nids.

So let us put the Nids running scared idea out of our mind. Logically, I would say the reason the Nids left their home galaxy in the first place is because all the food is gone. Nids are like locusts moving from crop to crop, devouring and moving on to the next. So I propose that these first Hive Fleets we see are really just scouting parties sent out in all directions until a suitable food supply is found. At that point the main Hive Fleet, if not the Hive Mind itself, will arrive for the final feast. Since we are talking about the future of the 40k future, I would say it has been plenty of time for the main fleet to arrive. This would spell disaster for every other race. These scouting parties we've seen so far, are sizable enough to simply get the party started, and keep the Tyranid party going long enough for the main fleet to arrive. I would say The main Hive Fleet is a lot worse than anything we have seen thus far. The main Hive Fleet has the entire collected biomass of an entire galaxy, aside from what was initially spared to create the scouting parties, who are self sufficient from then on. Plus, the main fleet has the entire army of what ever type of army that was needed to devour said previous galaxy. This means more Tyranid creatures we have never seen before, who knows, these new ones might have the equivalent of a dozen starship sizes plasma cannons strapped together to blast wholes through planets... Who knows? Certainly not GW, and if they do the certainly are not telling us.

Noir wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:The spores cannot "infest" Hive ships. How would Ork spores survive in space? Devoid of Oxygen, and no pressure? Can a normal ork jump out into space without a helmet?

Don't know much about spores do you, and yes Orks can for short amout of time servive in space.

Not into fungi/molds much, so no. And how long is "A short time" minutes? Seconds?

The walls are living bio-material constantly adapting, with their own internal defences taking the form of other life smothering Bio-organisms, can ork spores thrive on that?

Let's think this out:
1) Ork Boyz board a Hive ship
2) Instantly they are attacked by hundreds of Nids with the sole purpose in life to guard the ship.
3) Orks die and release spores

Here is where we start to speculate on what happens next. In my opinion, since it is a living ship, there are most likely thousands of tiny organisms that patrol the inner and outer hull of the ship and clear away space debris or other contaminating material that is not of Tyranid origin. So, it seems likely to me that the spores would land some where, and just get eaten within moments. We can even speculate that some sort of self defense would happen similar to oysters making pearls, and the spores are just incased and contained in an inescapable shell where it is smothered until it dissolves.

Either way, I don't think spores inside a Hive ship will do much damage. Even if it does grow to maturity it would instantly be killed again and the process starts over. This scenario is actually very beneficial to the Tyranids, a constant renewable supply of fresh Ork biomass... Yummy yumm. This also brings the Ork DNA coding closer to the Norn Queen to study first hand. As I said before, if Tyranids can spawn with spores just like the Orks..... Game over for everybody else

The Spores could in fact be eaten before they grow by the micro-organisms that the Hive Fleets use.

That's the exact reason as to why I thought the Spores would not colonize the ship.

tee hee hahahaha

Now I am thinking, the Hive Mind should figure out a way to collect a group of feral Orks and keep them growing, multiplying, and making more yummy biomass... Maybe if I think real hard about it, The Hive Mind will hear my prayers!

A ship dedicated to containing a bunch of Orks onboard, give them some wimpy Nids to fight to grow bigger, pump the genestealer virus in to each new generation of Ork, and once the Orks are big enough the Hive Mind can trigger a seizure like convulsion in the ship causing all inner compartments to slam closed squishing every Ork inside.

Bada-bing Bada-Boom! You have an unending renewable source of biomass for the Hive Mind. Even the Nids that get killed making the Orks grow bigger can be reused. A floating utopia for Ork and Tyranid alike...

So now we have a solution to all our problems:
We Tyranids get our biomass, and you Orks get your fight'n!

See, we can live happily ever after!

I was just thinking of that too Makes sense, except they aren't THAT smart

Some people speculate, and think it is "speculated" in the codex as well, that the Tyranids are on the run from something. I don't have my codex with me at the moment, but if it is mentioned in the codex, then it is most likely a marketing ploy of GW to keep us on our toes. Then again, what isn't a GW marketing ploy.

But let us explore that idea a little bit... If, and I do mean IF, the Nids are running from something, then what ever it is, has got to be at least 20 times worse than the Nids themselves. Anything that can put fear into the heart of the Hive Mind would be able to over power the Orks and the Nids combined IMO. If this unknown force is actually and actively chasing after the Nids, we would have a whole new can of worms to talk about which would be off topic. I think it was mentioned by some one on this thread that it could be Orks the Nids are running from. Doubt it... Why would the Hive Mind run from one group of Orks, just to stop and fight a different group of Orks? So if they are being chased out of the galaxy by something, IMO it is beyond our mortal comprehension to know what that thing is, and let us pray it wont follow the Nids.

So let us put the Nids running scared idea out of our mind. Logically, I would say the reason the Nids left their home galaxy in the first place is because all the food is gone. Nids are like locusts moving from crop to crop, devouring and moving on to the next. So I propose that these first Hive Fleets we see are really just scouting parties sent out in all directions until a suitable food supply is found. At that point the main Hive Fleet, if not the Hive Mind itself, will arrive for the final feast. Since we are talking about the future of the 40k future, I would say it has been plenty of time for the main fleet to arrive. This would spell disaster for every other race. These scouting parties we've seen so far, are sizable enough to simply get the party started, and keep the Tyranid party going long enough for the main fleet to arrive. I would say The main Hive Fleet is a lot worse than anything we have seen thus far. The main Hive Fleet has the entire collected biomass of an entire galaxy, aside from what was initially spared to create the scouting parties, who are self sufficient from then on. Plus, the main fleet has the entire army of what ever type of army that was needed to devour said previous galaxy. This means more Tyranid creatures we have never seen before, who knows, these new ones might have the equivalent of a dozen starship sizes plasma cannons strapped together to blast wholes through planets... Who knows? Certainly not GW, and if they do the certainly are not telling us.

Assuming that the latter theory is true (it seems the most likely), then we also need to consider a matter of simple logisitics. Assuming the 'Nids have already stripped a few galaxies, it seems unlikely that something as absoulutely massive as the hive mind would bother attacking our galaxy head on. If there are say three or four galaxies all roughly the same distance from a rencently conquered one, with Tyranids expanding into all them, the Hive Mind would hardly waste its time going after one or the other. Rather, it will likely stay put, spreading extremely slowly from its current "nest" as the scout fleets feed it biomass. It may reinforce them from time to time, but it seems a bit risky, not to mention uneconomical, for the Hive Mind to focus on one galaxy at a time. I envision the Tyranid hive mind as an ever growing mass of synapses constantly being fed by ships sent back from the hive fleets.

Going off of the point with the spores; much as I hate to admit it, an Ork-Tyranid symbiosis is likely the tactic the Tyranids will adopt, for several reasons.
1. Ork-Genestealer hybrids would be ready made shock troops for the Hive Fleet; give a Nob an arm that shoots bio-plasma and a prehensile tail to hold another choppa and you have an impressive combatant.

2. If they have the Ork spore genes, the 'Nids could actually repopulate devastated worlds. As fungi grow much more quickly and easily than most plants, using the Ork genetic code could allow the 'Nids to cover entire worlds (assuming they have at least a rudimentary atmosphere; if not, they can certainly create one) with biomass from a comparatively small patch of fungus (maybe a few square miles) within a matter of days.

A ship dedicated to containing a bunch of Orks onboard, give them some wimpy Nids to fight to grow bigger, pump the genestealer virus in to each new generation of Ork, and once the Orks are big enough the Hive Mind can trigger a seizure like convulsion in the ship causing all inner compartments to slam closed squishing every Ork inside.

Bada-bing Bada-Boom! You have an unending renewable source of biomass for the Hive Mind. Even the Nids that get killed making the Orks grow bigger can be reused. A floating utopia for Ork and Tyranid alike...

The issue with using the Orks themselves as a renewable energy source as suggested previously is that they need food as well. In fact, in order to grow, they will likely need to eat the equivalent of the Tyranids they kill, with only some of that biomass actually added to their own size, the rest being used to sustain their metabolism.

Oh why not. Here is a point for the Ork side of things:

So far, every one has only been talking about them looting stuff left behind by the Space Marines or Ig... Well, if we have gotten to the point where it is only Orks and Nids left alive, the Orks will have plenty of Eldar Craft Worlds and Tau technology looting as well.

We are talking some crazy battles here.

The entire Ork population in this galaxy equipped with Eldar, Tau, and Human technology vs. the entire population of Tyranids from this Galaxy and the previous one they came from.

In the end, I must concede that the Orks will likely be defeated. But it will be quite a Waaagh!

Not only that, the Orks will be encoded by the Tyranid Norn Queens, likely become essential to the Tyranids because of their renewable ecology (as I mentioned in a previous post). So in that sense, the Tyranids will come to rely upon their vanquished foes. So who really wins?

Shrouger wrote:Going off of the point with the spores; much as I hate to admit it, an Ork-Tyranid symbiosis is likely the tactic the Tyranids will adopt, for several reasons.
1. Ork-Genestealer hybrids would be ready made shock troops for the Hive Fleet; give a Nob an arm that shoots bio-plasma and a prehensile tail to hold another choppa and you have an impressive combatant.

It's played down in the 5th edition codex, but basically, the Biovore is what they made with Ork DNA. They aren't interested in the fighting abilities of the Orks, they already do it better.

I tend to disagree. A ten point Hormagaunt has lower stats in close combat than a six point Ork boy. They could combine some aspects, maybe.

Shrouger wrote:In the end, I must concede that the Orks will likely be defeated. But it will be quite a Waaagh!
Not only that, the Orks will be encoded by the Tyranid Norn Queens, likely become essential to the Tyranids because of their renewable ecology (as I mentioned in a previous post). So in that sense, the Tyranids will come to rely upon their vanquished foes. So who really wins?

Fluff wise the Tyranids have taken other races as slaves before. ZOATS!

The Zoats rebelled eventually and where exterminated... But the Orks I think would be alright with Tyranids running things. Once it is all over in this galaxy, the Tyranids will pack up and move to the next, and no Ork would pass up the opportunity to fight new things in new galaxies that have never fought Orks before.

Shrouger wrote:I tend to disagree. A ten point Hormagaunt has lower stats in close combat than a six point Ork boy. They could combine some aspects, maybe.

And in the fluff a lasgun can blow the head off a Space Marine in 1 shot. Fluff never matches game balance.

Perhaps you are correct and the Tyranids would take Orks as a "slave" race. Similar to the Turkish Janissaries, maybe? They give the Orks Tyranid biotech, a place aboard the Hive Ship and the promise of an eternal Waaagh! in return for their servitude. They could communicate with the Orks through the use of Genestealer-Ork hybrids in order to circumvent the impetus to smash non-greeen entities. The Tyranids can always use a new edge, and the Orks are always looking for war. Though they will likely have to start by raising a tribe of feral Ork spores, the 'Nids could probabl cast themselves as the incarnations of Gork and Mork fairly easily. It sounds like a perfect relationship to me.

Shrouger wrote:I tend to disagree. A ten point Hormagaunt has lower stats in close combat than a six point Ork boy. They could combine some aspects, maybe.

What? A Hormagaunt is six points base. A ten point Hormagaunt has Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, meaning on the charge you are S4 and get to reroll fail to wound due to S4 on T4 poison. Not only that, but there are three attacks as well. Being I6 on the charge, I fail to see how it has lower stats. Only the Toughness 3 and WS 3 would differ, which isn't terrible when you have higher Init and three attacks with rerollable wounding. As for an unmodified Gaunt however, you are absolutely correct.

-Loki- wrote:It's played down in the 5th edition codex, but basically, the Biovore is what they made with Ork DNA. They aren't interested in the fighting abilities of the Orks, they already do it better.

Hmmm... I can see how a Biovore would be close to what orks do, but I think the Biovore was something developed specially to combat Space Marines and IG who use defensive fire lines that need to be broken from afar so the hand to hand combat Nids can close the gap with less casualties.

Spore Mines themselves though are described as the most basic Tyranid life form and have been around for a long time I believe. I think Spore Mines are used pretty much in every battle on land, sea, or in space.

I wish o'wish I had my codex with me though to clarify... I will make sure I bring it with me tomorrow.

But the point I am trying to make, I don't need the codex for: Spore Mines drift around mindlessly and then explode... That is no way similar to Ork Spore. So I don't think that was the Tyranid version of Ork DNA really. Perhaps a very very basic blue print that was put into mass production until further research could be done on cracking the DNA code. Ork spore is some what self aware in that it can hide and burrow I think, plus it's main function is to develop into a whole new different organisms. Tyranid Spore Mines are spore mines until the day they explode.

What? A Hormagaunt is six points base. A ten point Hormagaunt has Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, meaning on the charge you are S4 and get to reroll fail to wound due to S4 on T4 poison. Not only that, but there are three attacks as well. Being I6 on the charge, I fail to see how it has lower stats. Only the Toughness 3 and WS 3 would differ, which isn't terrible when you have higher Init and three attacks with rerollable wounding. As for an unmodified Gaunt however, you are absolutely correct.

Sorry about that. I was looking at a friend's Tyranid Army list after a battle and had jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

However, I still think the Hive Mind would to well to combine the sinewy build and preternatural strength of an Ork with its other bio-constructs.




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But the point I am trying to make, I don't need the codex for: Spore Mines drift around mindlessly and then explode... That is no way similar to Ork Spore. So I don't think that was the Tyranid version of Ork DNA really. Perhaps a very very basic blue print that was put into mass production until further research could be done on cracking the DNA code. Ork spore is some what self aware in that it can hide and burrow I think, plus it's main function is to develop into a whole new different organisms. Tyranid Spore Mines are spore mines until the day they explode.

Exactly. The Ork spores serve a host of purposes; the first few to germinate become fungi. At a higher level, they become squigs and snotlings (the latter group instinctively cultivate the fungus while the squigs help keep their populations in check). The final spores develop into Orks and gretchin. Basically every single Ork casualty on a planet has the potential to create an entire community; the Hive Mind is hardly the strategic genius we make it out to be if it refuses to make use of such ample opportunities. Why waste biomass on conquering countless new worlds when you could just use the Ork genome to create planet-sized algal beds instead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, a disturbing thought has occurred to me. We may be analyzing this far more than most of GW's staff (maybe not at the senior level); it is possible that the fluff was never meant to be read into quite like this. It won't stop us from doing so, of course.

Shrouger wrote:

What? A Hormagaunt is six points base. A ten point Hormagaunt has Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, meaning on the charge you are S4 and get to reroll fail to wound due to S4 on T4 poison. Not only that, but there are three attacks as well. Being I6 on the charge, I fail to see how it has lower stats. Only the Toughness 3 and WS 3 would differ, which isn't terrible when you have higher Init and three attacks with rerollable wounding. As for an unmodified Gaunt however, you are absolutely correct.

Sorry about that. I was looking at a friend's Tyranid Army list after a battle and had jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

However, I still think the Hive Mind would to well to combine the sinewy build and preternatural strength of an Ork with its other bio-constructs.

Like, a melee shock troop that is unnaturally strong?



Though, a melee shock troop that could be restructured to use ranged weapons would be a great addition?



Though, they could use a really powerful melee troop that can completely bowl aside everything in it's path...



The Tyranids really do have everything they need, melee wise.

Many people forget that the biomass the Orks use for growing themselves comes from the Earth, otherwise they would violate the Conservation of Matter and Energy. Because of that, you can't grow Orkks on a ship, because they would sap biomass from the Nids.

I think the orks would be wiped out but the tyranids would suffer massive casualties.
In that scenario it would mean that ork characters, like gazghul, would be massive and in the fluff badrukk took out a void whale single handedly so i'm sure gaz could take out a few norn queens and what about the other characters waaagh's like wazdakka and nazdreg

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Also, I think I may have already pointed this out (I cant remember) but the theory on 'nids running from something greater really doesn't make sense, when do they run from battles they are losing?

The easy answers are non biological enemies (ala Necrons) or a greater physic mind than the hivemind itself!

Edit: Let's not forget Mork and Gork folks.

Klawz wrote:Many people forget that the biomass the Orks use for growing themselves comes from the Earth, otherwise they would violate the Conservation of Matter and Energy. Because of that, you can't grow Orkks on a ship, because they would sap biomass from the Nids.

Conservation of Matter and Energy? Are you talking about the TV show Full Metal Alchemist?

Well, we are talking about stuff GW will never sanction, but I still think the Orks could be grown and harvested like the delicious fungus crop that they are.

Here is how I picture it:

The Orks also eat and drink the same fungus they grow from I think. So the same stuff that the Nids pump into the air before an invasion that makes all the plant life grow, they can use to grow enough fungus to feed the Orks. So you got a part of the ship dedicated to the growth of the fungus, and in a pinch this stuff is good biomass too.

Orks need stuff to fight so they can grow faster, just make part of the ship like a dorm room / recreation area. Just send in a few of the lesser Nids and an occasional stronger Nid to keep the fighting fun for the Orks. If the Nid is killed, they are already onboard the ship with a working digestion pool, so they can be recycled, or the Ork could eat it. If the Ork is killed, then more spore are released, the Ork is dragged to the digestion pool, and the process is started over. Once the Ork gets too big, a muscle spasm in the ship's hull could cause the whole room to snap closed and squish anything in there. Which would make more spore and more biomass, starting the process over again.

The biomass produced in this way would keep the Hive Ship self sustained and provide the needed biomass for the ship to grow larger to accommodate more Orks. Nothing would be wasted, everything would have a "job", and it would all be contained onboard what could eventually become a planet sized Hive Ship.

Scrabb wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Also, I think I may have already pointed this out (I cant remember) but the theory on 'nids running from something greater really doesn't make sense, when do they run from battles they are losing?

The easy answers are non biological enemies (ala Necrons) or a greater physic mind than the hivemind itself!
Edit: Let's not forget Mork and Gork folks.

If it is Necrons, then we have nothing to worry about, because the Necrons would not follow. They would just stay asleep on their now peacefully dead tomb worlds. This scenario also kind of falls into the category that the Nids left because there is no more food in the galaxy, not really because they are running scared.

If it is Gork and Mork, and if those two are chasing after then Nids, then I would say the Orks would win. Two god like entities vs. the Hive Mind, the odds favor the Orks in that case. But, if it is Orks and Ork gods the Nids are running from, then they wouldn't have wasted time getting locked into combat again with more Orks. The Hive Mind wouldn't strategically run from one enemy front line, just to run right into the front line of the same kind of enemy.

It is a good theory you have, Gork and Mork are still out there somewhere. And GW could surprise us all with a surprise GorkaMorka attack... But it seems unlikely to me that they are the reasons the Nid's left their home galaxy.

Again though; an Ork spore needs food/nurtrients to grow. This may not be mentioned in the codex, but in order to grow, the Orks need to consume tremendous quantities of food. While I could understand raising them like livestock if the 'Nids were humans who needed the Orks to convert biomass into high-protein flesh, bear in mind that the 'Nids can synthesize most if not all chemicals required for life. Why take an unnecesary detour with the Orks, who will simply take up space and biomass.

The only way I see this working is if the Tyranids leave some snotlings to cultivate the fungus on a world; a small Tyranid garrison can keep their population in check while they cover the planet with fungi. A few decades later, the 'Nids can return, harvest all but a few small plots, and begin the process again. A system with several of these worlds could actually be used as a staging ground for a new hive fleet.

I still think the Tyranids would do well to use the Orks as auxiliaries of some kind. Certainly, they have carnifexes and the like, but Orks are extremely useful for a number of reasons.
1. Their genetic code can be used to create scenarios like the one above.
2. Said genetic code can be enmeshed with that of the Tyranids. Of course, said 'Nids would probably go insane without the guiding hand of the Hive Mind.
2a. Orks, however, can survive on their own. So long as the Norn Queens find a way to encode the notion that the Hive Mind is Gork (perhaps Mork), the 'Nids can home in on the psychic signals of the Orks once their populations grow almost to the point of a Waaagh! A few years before the population reaches the critical mass required, the 'Nids can send some Genestealer-Ork hybrids to the surface, kill off the tribal leaders and establish themselves as the new ruling caste. The Boyz will hardly mind so long as their liason with the Hive Mind is strong and green and they have the opportunity to fight.
3. -Loki- claims that the Tyranids have no need for Orks in melee; however, if requisite biomass is considered, Orks could still be cheap, expendable frontline troops.
4. What about Ork tech? The Ork need to loot and scavenge can never be fully erased; imagine what a Carnifex with a Shokk Attack gun variant built into its chest could do.

If it is Gork and Mork, and if those two are chasing after then Nids, then I would say the Orks would win. Two god like entities vs. the Hive Mind, the odds favor the Orks in that case. But, if it is Orks and Ork gods the Nids are running from, then they wouldn't have wasted time getting locked into combat again with more Orks. The Hive Mind wouldn't strategically run from one enemy front line, just to run right into the front line of the same kind of enemy.

Why not? The Orks of our galaxy clearly do not have the Ork gods to back them, so that threat is eliminated. Further, if the 'Nids do not wipe out or assimilate the Orks of our galaxy, then once they move on, Gork/Mork will rally them to the Banna of the Gods, probably increasing their numbers significantly.

Now if the Tyranids followed my above suggestions, they would probably confuse the frak out of most Orks they face.

Shrouger wrote:

If it is Gork and Mork, and if those two are chasing after then Nids, then I would say the Orks would win. Two god like entities vs. the Hive Mind, the odds favor the Orks in that case. But, if it is Orks and Ork gods the Nids are running from, then they wouldn't have wasted time getting locked into combat again with more Orks. The Hive Mind wouldn't strategically run from one enemy front line, just to run right into the front line of the same kind of enemy.

Why not? The Orks of our galaxy clearly do not have the Ork gods to back them, so that threat is eliminated. Further, if the 'Nids do not wipe out or assimilate the Orks of our galaxy, then once they move on, Gork/Mork will rally them to the Banna of the Gods, probably increasing their numbers significantly.

Now if the Tyranids followed my above suggestions, they would probably confuse the frak out of most Orks they face.

Well, here is another reason I think the Tyranids are not being chased by anything:

The Hive Ships are sloooowwwwww when it comes to intergalactic travel. They do not have warp speed or light speed or warp jumping abilities.... So if anything with technology was chasing them, it would have caught up to them in the space between galaxies and obliterated them then and there in the void with no new sources of biomass.

Once a Hive Ship is in a planetary system though they are unequaled when it comes to maneuverability, agility, speed, and fighting. Shoot a missile at them and the living ship can simply bend to dodge out of the way, regular ships can't do that... But between galaxies the Hive ships float at substandard speeds.

So if Gork, Mork, and the untold billions of Orks from a different galaxy where chasing after the Nids:
1) There would be no more Nids because they got blown up between galaxies
2) Or, at the very least, they would have arrived at the same time as the Nids
3) Or, for what ever reason, Gork and Mork are still between galaxies trying to catch up then they will arrive shortly and the Nids would be aware of this... Therefore strategically the Hive Mind wouldn't allow itself to be so easily outflanked with an enemy in front and one coming up from behind. Instead I would say the Hive Mind would have perhaps tried to position the fleets so that other races stood between them and the advancing Orks.

Perhaps Gork and Mork found worthier adversaries? I imagine that Chaos exists in some form in the galaxy from which the 'Nids are fleeing. Chaos might have broken through into the materium, challenging the Orks in a way no other race could.

A few points.

Some people saying that nids always eat and that orks need to burn bodies: Orks can, will and have ate other orkiod life (orks and gretchen) for sustainance. Also Humans too. I expect they'd try to eat Tyranids as well.

New spores of orks once grown into and ork has only rudimentry knowledge. A piece of gorkamorka fluff I remember is of most yoofs finding the city already with a bow in hand. So eventually unless a good amount of orks remain on world the new orks would be reduced to choppas. If it only comes down to melee then the orks lose.

Ork space fleets are effective. Strangely at ambushes.

Now then does anyone know how Kryptman stole some genestealers to guide leviathen into Octavious? Caught it off gaurd between systems when the ship was in a sort of hibernation (forgot the actual name. Hibernation is close enough I guess). So with the hive bio-ships hibernating between system, Ork pirates just have to gather in numbers and make sure the 1t volley is crippling.

If nids get to a world no matter their losses they can rebuild. Example in that Octavious fluff where the last bio-ship crashes itself on the planet and once the nids are being hunted down they go down ground and raid till they regain their numbers.

I think this is one of those Imovable object vs unstopable force or Chuck Norris vs Mr T things.

Shrouger wrote:Perhaps Gork and Mork found worthier adversaries? I imagine that Chaos exists in some form in the galaxy from which the 'Nids are fleeing. Chaos might have broken through into the materium, challenging the Orks in a way no other race could.

If that is the case, then once again, they are not being 'chased' away, they are just strategically repositioning themselves...

I guess my biggest problem is I don't want to think of the Hive Mind as something that can be scared off and chased away. In my mind, the Hive Mind knows no fear, and knows even less about fear than Space Marines do.

Once again, I forgot my codex... But I will search through it again over the weekend and see if there is any mention of the Nids actually "running" away from anything... I think I vaguely remember the caption that does talk about it... If I recall it is some Space Marine Xenos Hunter talking, and he only mentions it in passing that he "hopes" nothing is chasing them; because what ever that thing is would be worse than chaos nightmares or something along those lines...

Curses... If only I could remember my codex like the hive Mind remembers everything.


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-Loki- wrote:The whole 'running from something bigger' somes from half a sentence in Codex Tyranids. "Whether the Tyranids made this perilous journey because they had already consumed everything of worth in their home galaxy or in flight of another, even more fearsome race, is unknown." What is known is all of the rest of the fluff describes them as extra-galactic predators that consume all life. That's pretty much all we know of their origins.

HAHAHA, I just saw the other thread that was made which answers our questions on who is chasing what... HAR HAR HARRRRR

If that is the case, then once again, they are not being 'chased' away, they are just strategically repositioning themselves...

Call it what you have to.

I do understand your point though. However, I've noticed that you have not voiced your opinion on my idea for Ork janissaries and fungus farms... Any thoughts?

Shrouger wrote:

If that is the case, then once again, they are not being 'chased' away, they are just strategically repositioning themselves...

Call it what you have to.

I do understand your point though. However, I've noticed that you have not voiced your opinion on my idea for Ork janissaries and fungus farms... Any thoughts?

Oops, My bad (cry baby) j/k

I thought we where just getting into a kind of tomato/tomatö type argument with that... Your fungus world idea would work great... In fact, I think we both where thinking things going towards the same concept. Mine just started out on board a Hive ship that would have it's own Norn Queen overseeing the growth, development, life, death, and food rations onboard the ship which would eventually grow planet sized.

We could say, my idea would be used first onboard the Hive ship, kind of a research/testing facility. Then it would move to a planet like your idea once the process is perfected.

I think so. But yours focused on the Orks themselves, while mine system used snotlings and rudimentary fungus (a bit lower on the food chain...) to recycle the resources of planet.

Either way, I'm glad we can agree.

Shrouger wrote:I think so. But yours focused on the Orks themselves, while mine system used snotlings and rudimentary fungus (a bit lower on the food chain...) to recycle the resources of planet.

Either way, I'm glad we can agree.

I suppose the upkeep cost vs. the return product would be more efficient if kept on a snotling or lower level. You could house a couple hundred snotlings in the space needed to house 50 Ork boyz. Snotlings eat less, are more easily controllable, and less likely to some how manage an escape. Then, when needed, the snotlings could be allowed to grow full sized into Orkanid shock troops.

I think snotlings are an entirely different subspecies... Perhaps the ork spores themselves, but not the snotlings. It would be extremely useful though; the biomass suplements from the fungus beds could probably feed untold billions of 'Nids.

Shrouger wrote:I think snotlings are an entirely different subspecies... Perhaps the ork spores themselves, but not the snotlings. It would be extremely useful though; the biomass suplements from the fungus beds could probably feed untold billions of 'Nids.

While Snotlings are a different subspecies, Spores from any Ork or Sontling can become any Ork subspecies even Gretchin.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but the Orks would win for sure. You forget that the tyranids would threaten the orks very survival, unlike 'umies or chaos the tyranids just want to leave the galaxy bare and move on. The orks survival instinct would become one with their urge to fight also Gork and Mork would surely tell the boyz, just this once mind, to quit squabblin' and bash the dem bugs.

I'm afraid I have to clarify sumfing with all yous bugboys.

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

Ork logic neva fails.

Though I can't even begin to imagine the destruction the 'Nids would wreak if they did the smart thing and tried to use the Ork genome constructively...

Shrouger wrote:

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

Ork logic neva fails.

Though I can't even begin to imagine the destruction the 'Nids would wreak if they did the smart thing and tried to use the Ork genome constructively...

The ability to loot? There arent much things on the tabletop much better than the 'nids. I had 8 genestealers (pre -broodlord) take out a Terminator squad on the charge and then take out a group of 32 boyz. (also I had the charge advantage). The Orks and 'nids are very close. I dont think they need to use the ork genome to much. (Also I completely understand theres the luck of the dice with any game played in warhammer.)

However fluff-wise, the tyranid will gain the orks genome from fighting them. So imagine a carnifex that gets bigger than it already is as it kills stuff........

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

Psyker_9er wrote:

Klawz wrote:Many people forget that the biomass the Orks use for growing themselves comes from the Earth, otherwise they would violate the Conservation of Matter and Energy. Because of that, you can't grow Orkks on a ship, because they would sap biomass from the Nids.

Conservation of Matter and Energy? Are you talking about the TV show Full Metal Alchemist?

No, I'm talking about the Scientific Law.

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

In that case, the Hive Mind is a sedulous snob. We're not just discussing Orkl boyz here; the Orkoid genome is far more complex. Just consider the options for near-limitless biomass, not to mention the potential that Orks have as cheap, mid-strength infantry. Further, forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that 'Stealer cults are meant to destabalize planetary government; the purebred forms tend not to be deployed on a scale even remotely comparable to a "standard" Ork tribe

Shrouger wrote:

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

In that case, the Hive Mind is a sedulous snob. We're not just discussing Orkl boyz here; the Orkoid genome is far more complex. Just consider the options for near-limitless biomass, not to mention the potential that Orks have as cheap, mid-strength infantry.

But Tyranids don't actually use the races they absorb, only the biomass. So they wouldn't use Orks as a cheap, mid-strength infantry. They also have their own already that has been working for a long time, the Gaunt. Which can be altered to be a ranged creature, a melee crature, fly, run faster... They don't need another type of infantry.

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

Shrouger wrote:Further, forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that 'Stealer cults are meant to destabalize planetary government; the purebred forms tend not to be deployed on a scale even remotely comparable to a "standard" Ork tribe

Well, you're kind of wrong. Genestealer Cults are, indeed, meant to destabilize a planets government before a hive fleet hits. That's not their only function. Genestealers are the heavy hitting melee shock troop of the swarms. They're incredibly strong and fast, and highly intelligent. They operate, even in a warzone, free of the hive mind to do their thing. Broodlords are even more powerful. They're fielded in sufficiently large numbers. The size of an Ork tribe? Maybe not, but not every Ork in a tribe does one thing, and Genestealers are highly specialized creatures. They have other creatures for ranged support and to make up numbers.

Da boyz will still win with their looted bio-titans and looted carnifexes.

Forgive my fanboyism, but i bet that the orks would win.

Why? it was mentioned already.

First, they throw spores everytime, dead or alive. Those spores grow fast without the need of any biomass or resource.

Second, they can loot everything. You could say "Nuhuh! You can't loot anything from the tiranids because all their technology is biological!", but orks have the WAAHG, and if they believe they can do something, they will! An extreme uncanon and probably wrong example, if a bunch of orks believe that one of them would grow wings and fly, he will.

Third, the WAAHG!. It makes them grow bigger, stronger and smarter. It load their weapons if they believe it has bullets. It makes them inmune to any chaos influence. Is like freaking spyral power of Teggen Toppa Gurren Laggan.

Fourth, they have the best gods, gork and mork. And they are big enouth to beat Khorne in a brawl in the warp.

Also, ork genestealers can't live long enouth, they are instantly detected by the healty ones and purged from the warband.

And thats what i think. Forgive my fanboyism.

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

This is not a matter of reproduction; the fungus that intially springs up from Orkoid spores would constitute a near unlimited supply of biomass. So long as the fungi has some kind of atmosphere (it need not be terribly dense), they can grow to cover the entire planet if properly nurtured; I understand that this might conflict with the entire concept of the Tyranids, but if they are as adaptive as the canon claims, they should at least make use of this on some level. If they cannot make use of an adaptation such as this, they have become an overspecialized evolutionary dead-end. Certainly, they can try to continue devouring worlds, but at some point this practice will no longer be sustainable (i.e, they will run out of easily accessible galaxies and face an extremely long, perhaps fatal journey across "dead space"); using ork spore as a suplement of some kind would be the most logical course.

Why not both?

Please do not misenterpret my arguments; I still support the Waaagh!

I was just outlining some opportunities for the Tyranids to make use of the Ork genome.

orks what would happen if the ork spores landed on a hive ship and overran it ??? Then the whole race would be doomed as the orks could ovrerun the rest of the hive fleet and have a hive fleet as well as a normal WAAAAGH to combat the nid's

Im not so sure one hive ship effects the Tyranid race that much.

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:orks what would happen if the ork spores landed on a hive ship and overran it ??? Then the whole race would be doomed as the orks could ovrerun the rest of the hive fleet and have a hive fleet as well as a normal WAAAAGH to combat the nid's

The Hive Ships are living creatures connected to the Hive Mind as well. As soon as the hive Mind discovered a potential threat from an infested ship, they'd simply destroy it.

Now, get a few Genestealer broods on those Ork ships...

Shrouger wrote:

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

This is not a matter of reproduction; the fungus that intially springs up from Orkoid spores would constitute a near unlimited supply of biomass. So long as the fungi has some kind of atmosphere (it need not be terribly dense), they can grow to cover the entire planet if properly nurtured; I understand that this might conflict with the entire concept of the Tyranids, but if they are as adaptive as the canon claims, they should at least make use of this on some level. If they cannot make use of an adaptation such as this, they have become an overspecialized evolutionary dead-end. Certainly, they can try to continue devouring worlds, but at some point this practice will no longer be sustainable (i.e, they will run out of easily accessible galaxies and face an extremely long, perhaps fatal journey across "dead space"); using ork spore as a suplement of some kind would be the most logical course.

What comes from an Ork spore is a pretty tiny fraction of what Tyranids get from a planet. There was a writeup on GW's website about the quantities that get havested from a planet (that was warseer, the link is dead to GWs site).

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

Magos Biologis Salk,
Draco Legion Biomedical Research station, New Hallefuss

That is a completely ridiculous level of material taken form a single planet. I don't think Ork spores would really make them want to bother.

-Loki- wrote: Now, get a few Genestealer broods on those Ork ships...

genstealers have been aboard ork ships before. in the ork codex it quotes a runtherd about warp travel and says when somthing else is on board like "stealers" its good entertainment

That is a completely ridiculous level of material taken form a single planet. I don't think Ork spores would really make them want to bother.

If they don't, they could find themselves in a protracted campaign without a ready supply of biomass. It just seems a bit odd for the Hive Mind not to exploit every edge it can get. Perhaps why the Orks will win this war; they may be cocky and belligerent, but they are also willing to experiment with new ideas. I certainly see what you are saying, Loki, but this just proving to me all the more that unless the Tyranids start adapting to face a numerically similar enemy (ie Orks), they will find conquest difficult, if not impossible.

The Orks, meanwhile, will continue to innovate in their own fashion, spurred by the vast mountains of loot to be scavenged from Imperium Worlds (the Orks being closer to most of these than the 'Nids, they will likely secure them before either side commits to a real campaign against the other). If burna-boyz can expect to go into battle armed with plasma flamers, or if Flash gitz can start carting around looted thunder-fire cannons, I think the Orks have a fair chance of victory.

Shrouger wrote:If they don't, they could find themselves in a protracted campaign without a ready supply of biomass. It just seems a bit odd for the Hive Mind not to exploit every edge it can get. Perhaps why the Orks will win this war; they may be cocky and belligerent, but they are also willing to experiment with new ideas. I certainly see what you are saying, Loki, but this just proving to me all the more that unless the Tyranids start adapting to face a numerically similar enemy (ie Orks), they will find conquest difficult, if not impossible.

The Orks, meanwhile, will continue to innovate in their own fashion, spurred by the vast mountains of loot to be scavenged from Imperium Worlds (the Orks being closer to most of these than the 'Nids, they will likely secure them before either side commits to a real campaign against the other). If burna-boyz can expect to go into battle armed with plasma flamers, or if Flash gitz can start carting around looted thunder-fire cannons, I think the Orks have a fair chance of victory.

So because they don't take this one thing, their method of reproduction, they're simply not adapting at all?

The Doom of Malantai. The Parasite of Mortrex. The Deathleaper. Just three completely new life forms they've put in the new codex. The Parasite implants ripper larvae into hosts (and is described fluffwise as creating enough rippers - only rippers - to overrun a planet. The Doom of Malantai was purpose designed to wipe out a Craftworld, which it did. The Deathleaper was created as a terror weapon to demorilize a planet. The Tyranids adapt and create plenty.

Then there's the creatures that actually have had their mutations accepted by the hive fleets on a massive scale. Old One Eyes regenerative ability was accepted as a viable mutation for all larger Tyranids. The Red Terror was quite clearly a test creature for a Mawloc. One off Tyranids and mutations are being created all the time.

They simply don't need the reproductive spores of the Orks. Especially when you look at the quantities of material removed from a single planet. There's far more lightly defended planets in the galaxy for them to stockpile biomass from while also attacking defended planets. The galaxy isn't, at least going by supplied maps from GW, as populated as you think. When they don't even use a fraction of what they take from a planet, it's pretty clear there's large hive fleets stockpiling all of this floating in the void.

It just seems strange. Why not use this renewable source of biomass to secure their chances of survival? At some point, the 'Nids will run out; we don't know how many galaxies they will purge first, but it will happen.

The Orks, on the other hand, jump at every opportunity, promising or not, to improve their weapons. A Mek will innovate several new technologies a month with the right materials; because of their willingness/ability to experiment, the Orks will be able to tip the scales in their favor.

Yes tyranids will eventually run out of biomass and be forced to do what? move to another universe?
Also orks were desighned to be the ultimate survivor race and tyranids are sort of the ultimate offensive race so i think it would be a war long enough to keeo the nids fed for a long time.
Btw even though tyranids can evolve ork tech can evolve aswell, who knows maybe they can adapt quicker than the nids

Shrouger wrote:It just seems strange. Why not use this renewable source of biomass to secure their chances of survival? At some point, the 'Nids will run out; we don't know how many galaxies they will purge first, but it will happen.

I see what you're getting at, but considering the size of the universe, they could be at it until the end of time and still not consume the entire universe. Just in the time it takes for them to cross the galactic void, other galaxies would form anyway, considering corssing that void at sublight speed would take hundreds of millions of years. At least.

Shrouger wrote:The Orks, on the other hand, jump at every opportunity, promising or not, to improve their weapons. A Mek will innovate several new technologies a month with the right materials; because of their willingness/ability to experiment, the Orks will be able to tip the scales in their favor.

Again, you're assuming they simply stagnate because they do not take this one trait from the Orks. A trait they do not need. They're constantly making new creatures, and basically trialling them for bass production.

Tyranids have taken slave races before, they where called Zoats, so it is not too far of a stretch to pretend they could do it again if given a worthy species. Orks are worthy of this servitude IF the Hive Mind can trick, or convince, or genestealer cult them some how.

But back to the topic about the actual 'war' between Nids and Orks: I still say Nids would win

Yes, Orks do have the ability to rapidly change technology, and that is a very strong point in the Ork's favor. However, this very same fact is also very limiting to the Ork side of things and here is why:

No matter what technology they develop it will only fall into one out of a few categories.
1) a new weapon
2) a new vehicle
3) or new armor
And no matter what category of tech they improve, it will still be an Ork Boy in the driver seat.

Tyranids can not only make the same sort of stuff, but that is in addition too being able to make a whole completely new species of Tyranid all together... So Orks can only change what they use during the war, while Tyranids can completely change the whole dynamics of the war.

An Ork may get bigger, and stronger, and have more metal on his body than a tank... But it is still an Ork.
Tyranids can counter and/or reproduce a biotech equivalent to anything the Orks can make... But an Ork is still an Ork.
Tyranids can completely change every aspect of themselves and create whole new life forms we have never seen before... Orks though, will always be Orks.

Psyker_9er wrote:Tyranids have taken slave races before, they where called Zoats, so it is not too far of a stretch to pretend they could do it again if given a worthy species. Orks are worthy of this servitude IF the Hive Mind can trick, or convince, or genestealer cult them some how.

Zoats were retconned out of the Tyranid fluff. The closest to them is Hive Fleet Colossus. It was a fleet of Conch shaped ships grown from stone, with centaur-like Tyranids that communicated telepathically. They tried to convince everyone they came into contact with that they were a slave race that escaped their captors, then waged a full scale war with everyone they met. This is another peice in the 'Tyranids are running from something' theory. However, they haven't actually been named 'Zoats'. And if GW were interested in keeping the name alive, they'd surely have used the name Zoat in that fluff.

-Loki- wrote:Zoats were retconned out of the Tyranid fluff. The closest to them is Hive Fleet Colossus. It was a fleet of Conch shaped ships grown from stone, with centaur-like Tyranids that communicated telepathically. They tried to convince everyone they came into contact with that they were a slave race that escaped their captors, then waged a full scale war with everyone they met. This is another peice in the 'Tyranids are running from something' theory. However, they haven't actually been named 'Zoats'. And if GW were interested in keeping the name alive, they'd surely have used the name Zoat in that fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zoat

A lot of the GW fluff gets changed up, and it is a pet peeve of mine, but what is a fan boy to do? I'm pretty sure the new codex makes no mention of Zoats at all any more. Sigh...

I was merely saying though that the concept of a slave race of Orks is not too crazy of an idea. I'm not saying: "this is what GW is going to do", instead I was actually trying to give complements to the Orks in a way. As a Genestealer Cult Magus myself, I think the Orks are a fine species worthy of the Hive Mind's consideration. But I can only obey the will of the Great Devourer

The point you are trying to make Loki, I also agree with. Tyranids are just fine with out Orks or Ork DNA. Tyranids can win with out any of it, just good ol'fashioned Tyranid evolution that has worked time and time again, and will continue to work long after the Orks have been vanquished.

I was merely making meager suggestions, like a humble servant, just in case the Hive Mind is also a subscriber and reader of DakkaDakka.

Tyranids used to take slave races. They don't anymore, since the entire race got revised with 3rd edition. So, in the current fluff, a slave race wouldn't happen, the Tyranids would just absorb them and use the biomass for something else.

Shrouger wrote:the Dark Eldar will hide in Commorragh

Suckas!

But seriously, I'm rooting for the Orks

An Ork boy may remain just that, but said Ork boy need not be equipped with the simple sluggas, choppas and light armor of the current edition.

Just to clarify, we are using the fluff to support us, correct? If so, my rant can continue...

Orks, among other things, are tremendously strong. This fact was casually omitted in the new edition when they were given the strength of mere Guardsmen (S3, for those not familiar), but the codex describes them as being able to easily rip a man in half, something even a Catachan might have some difficulty doing. Combine this with mass distribution of augmetics from looted AM shrines, and your standard Ork Boy is suddenly significantly more capable. And assuming most of the Orks in the galaxy are flocking toward the Tyranid hive fleets, they should have no problem maintaining a roughly 1:1 ratio with the Tyranids.

Now that the Boyz have been given their due, on to vehicles. The Orks could probably field thousands of looted tanks during a single campaign, and given the materials available to the Meks, we can expect far more than a simple Leman Russ. We can probably reasonably expect the Orks to field looted Baneblades (with various Orky modifications) and Land Raiders by the dozen, not to mention the countless Gargants they could produce with the facilities found on a Forge World.

As far as adaptation goes, there are a few points to make for the Ork;
1. There are certain things Tyranid bio-forms can never truly resist (colliding with stars, for example ).
2. Given the insane creativity of Meks with near-limitless resources, we can expect the Orks to field new weapons at least as quickly as the Tyranids can adapt. Basically any weapon that can be built by the Orks will be built at some point. I believe I made a list of possible technologies at some point before, but I will make another to illustrate the point;

1. Turret Mounted shokk attack guns= more deff
2. Las-sighted shootas (A lasgun attached to a Shoota... very Orky)= more accuracy
3. Mass distribution of Bionics (mentioned previously in this post)= more cybork bodies= more invulnerable saves
4. Assault Cannons for Gitz/Lootas= more dakka

This list took me less than a minute to compile. Now consider an inspired Mek with mountains of spare parts at his disposal...

yes orks FTW and if they could make suicide units with warp drives they would be done with the tyranids in record time !!!

the idea for this comes from the battle for macragge and a ship detonating its warp drive to destroy the hive fleet soooooo a few of dem an dere done wiv'

Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

This is an extremely unfair stereotype, and a highly incorrect one, might I add.
1. They appear that way because they do not consider the impractical fields of philosophy and art that humans and Eldar spend their time contemplating. How many humans do you know who can assemble a working gun within minutes through instinct alone? Meks may build larger weapons, but even common Boyz can make their own sluggas. Somehow Ghazghkull Thraka was able to devise an effective strategy against the Imperium. And Grog Ironteef against the Tau (who heavily outgunned him). And Gazbag against the Eldar.
2. Armageddon, anyone? The Orks will always unite when they see an enemy; that is the entire principle of the Waaagh!
3. If few other enemies present themselves (the Tau are gone, the Eldar/Dark Eldar have fled to the webway, and what little remains of the IoM is being devoured by Chaos: it was at the beginning of this thread), the Orks will instinctively fight non-orkish enemies. Further, with an inspiring leader like Ghazghkull, issues of competition at the highest levels should be either nonexistent or resolved extremely quickly.

Taoofss wrote:Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

I believe the criteria for this versus thread was a "what if" the imperium was gone and these two races exclusively were fighting. Any scenario with multiple actors has them all automatically as enemies to the tyranids, always by tyranid design. Orks have a history of being fairly easily manipulated so long as they're given a good fight. So the more actors in any given "what if" scenario the lower the chances of tyranids conquering the galaxy. In the sense of affecting the fight between nids and orks I feel it would overal be an advantage for the orks if others were involved. The hive mind has to adapt to even more enemies and, again, the orks are easier for humans and eldar to manipulate so they will favor the orks in a fight to extinction.

Orks are cunning and brutal. Many a commander from the "more intelligent" races have been outwitted by a cunning warboss. I mean, there are brilliant ork warbosses out there. I feel your point that orks are not smart has as much validity as "the tyranids are just dumb predators. they can't really outsmart anyone they're too HUR DUR NOM NOM OM!! for anything."

Orks are not unified right now. The reason for this is fairly simple. Orks will always fight non-orks if the fight will actually be a proppa fight. Sadly, there is so much territory in space where all suitable enemies have already been eliminated and so the orks are forced to fight each other (only proppa fight left). When great fights spill out, and last (Armor-gett-em, for example), orks from farther and farther hear the call to war. One would presume the final tyranid offense to be suitably large to attract previously unheard of WAAAAGHH!! crusades.

Taoofss wrote:Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

Gazghul is the only prophet of the waaagh because he can communicate with gork and mork and no other orks can (imo this would suggest he is a powerfull and unique psyker but can't channel it like weirdboyz).

In the ork codex it says orks will always unite to foght a common enemy.

Also thhis scenario is about what would happen if ONLY orks and nids were left

Apaert from this i agree completly with how fast ork technolidgy can develop. Imagine if the orks managed to get ahold of a blackstone fortress, if the orks were lucky they could destroy chunks of hive fleet with easily

Previous fluff suggests that even if orks unite, there will be a ton of infighting and back stabbing.

Read the first post. This scenario is NOT what would happen if ONLY orks and nids were left.

Oh. In that case the Necrons will slaughter the nids in order to protect their harvest of souls.

The orks will happily kill each other and anything else they can find.

The Eldar and their dark cousins will keep on doing their thing.

The Tau will be swallowed whole by whoever gets around to it first.

The Demons in the warp will act randomly.

Any questions?

Necrons don't harvest souls...

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons don't harvest souls...

My bad. Don't they harvest them for the C'tan? Or did I get it wrong again? Anyway, they'll kill the nids for being better at exterminating life then them.

The Necrons would likely be a bit busy fighting off Chaos. Let us not forget that the Warp is anathema to the C'tan. They might have some engagements with the Tyranids, but the Daemons would likely be their primary concern.

I think in the end Orkz will out do everyone then get eaten by nids

I think the orks will never unite. I think the imperium will destroy the hive fleets but have its own spine shattered in the process. In the chaos necrons will attempt to harvest the galaxy again but be thwarted by all the other races.

I believe there will always be war. WAAAARGHH!

Yes, by the time only Nids and Orks are left, the Orks will have untold new technology practically every day. Looted stuff from Eldar Craft Worlds, new looted Tau tech, countless ships and tanks from the IOM... But all of this still only changes what the Orks bring to the war... Tyranids have the ability to change the entire dynamics and the very nature of the war itself.

Orks may be able to make a gun that fires a beam 10x hotter than the sun and can punch a hole through a planet... Tyranids can make a nid so small the targeting array of said gun can't lock on... Like my mosquito idea from before: Yes that big gun could blindly fire into the air and kill 17 million of these mosquitoes in one shot. However while the gun reloads and recharges, it only takes 1 of the mosquitoes out of the countless billions still left alive to sting the crews and make the gun useless.

So people say the Orks will bring a flame throwers to counter the mosquito threat... Okay, great idea! Are you going to have those flame throwers turned on all day every day in a 360 degree protective bubble surrounding every Ork???? If so, then Tyranids don't actually have to fight because Orks will just be slow roasting themselves... If not, then again it only takes that 1 mosquito sting and the flame thrower guys are poisoned and dying.

What ever gun the Orks can think of, would have to be able to fire nonstop all day long in order to protect themselves from the mosquito threat. So people might say, how about an enclosed vehicle... Well, I'm willing to set aside the fact that it would be rather difficult for Orks to make a perfectly sealed air tight anything, but the Orks inside have to come out some time or there is at least 1 air vent the mosquito can climb into.

Lets go even smaller and talk about Tyranid germ warfare. Microscopic nids pumped into the air that attack the Spore genome inside the Ork, making any spore they produce upon death mentally brain dead. This is only stuff that only me personally can make up, lets apply the same creative thinking to an almost god like entity with complete recollection and instantaneous response from his minions.

With Orks, only the possibilities of technology are endless... With Tyranids, the possibilities of ANYTHING are endless.

Aww Jeeze, we just pumped out a biological suicidal nuke by accident... THROW IT AT THE TITANS!!!

Footsloggin wrote:Aww Jeeze, we just pumped out a biological suicidal nuke by accident... THROW IT AT THE TITANS!!!

So the Tyranids either win, or the Orks blow themselves up while trying to kill the Tyranids, thus ending in stalemate... This only further proves my point that the only thing Orks can do is make more Dakka... The Orks can not out think the Hive Mind no matter how clever the Warboss might be, they can still only make some form of technology.

What ever the new tactic is, it would only work once and then no more. What ever super weapon is able to kill all the Tyranids in one blast will also destroy all the Orks in the same explosion.

There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

And if the orks have looted so much then surely they would have a supply of life eater virus bombs which they could unleash. The life eater virus bomb could destroy any tyranid, i mean it was so powerfull that the emporer himself hated using it and no ork would hesitate to drop a few in the middle of a hive fleet

Shrouger wrote:There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

The points you are making are good and valid... Here on EARTH!!

However, these are merely minor obstacles and the Hive Mind will have no problem figuring out a way around them. I am just one Cult Magus here, I can not pretend to know the inner workings of Tyranid DNA like a Norn Queen does... They have access down to the tinniest nucleotides of every DNA strand...

The Nid possibilities are endless is the point I am making...

Ork's biggest advantage, technology, is also what limits their ability to win. Tyranids have no such limitations, they can recreate the whole war and the way it is fought, by changing themselves.

Shrouger wrote:There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

Tyranids already choke the atmosphere of planets with spores that are dangerous to the inhabitants before making planetfall. It's part of the cycle of preparing the planet for harvest. They wouldn't actually need a small creature to do it. They'd just create their own version of an Imperial virus bomb. The only reason I'd say they haven't made the Tyranids do things like this is it would make them a terribly boring tabletop army. 'Okay, so, roll to see who goes first. I do. My spores choke your guys. i win.'

Shrouger wrote:3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

You still keep thinking that the Tyranids need those bodies. They make up a tiny, tiny fraction of what gets havested. The only reason they even fight the inhabitants of a planet is to stop them destroying digestion pools and capillary towers, and the rippers and pyrovores digesting the planet. Go back and look at the figures of what is removed from a planet. This is not including the enemy victims, it's only talking about water, minerals, soil and atmospheric gases.

Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

If you're already the best, why change?

Seriously though, bio-engineering is technology. It changes a creature on a genetic level. The mad doks regularly create cyborks. The orks themselves are part of a group of artificially created races.

Scrabb wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

If you're already the best, why change?

Seriously though, bio-engineering is technology. It changes a creature on a genetic level. The mad doks regularly create cyborks. The orks themselves are part of a group of artificially created races.

Can an Ork dissolve itself into a billion tiny micro organisms each with completely different DNA coding that the original?

Can a Mad Dok create a new species of Ork never seen before?

Can a Mad Dok sit back and merely think about a new life form and watch it appear from out of the Ork fungus?

Can an Ork instantly convey all the conditions that caused it's death back to the Warboss for further study on ways to adapt?

Can an Ork ever be anything but an Ork, no matter how much cyborg parts it has?


I could go on, but these are only a few things the Tyranids can do that Ork technology will never do.

well orks spores can spawn other types of orks like grots and a mad dok could create a new ork if he took the head from one and put it on another. Grotsnik is rummored to be creating a perfect ork out of the best parts of other orks

Orks are extremely open to "self-improvement" (viz Deff-Dread pilots). A Dok with looted AM tech, with the help of a Mek, could easily churn out new and terrifying Ork cyborgs on a regular basis. They could even experiment with grafting Tyranid parts onto themselves (I believe this was brought up earlier); a few mishaps with ichor later and voila! you have a Nob with a bio-engineered claw with an assault cannon strapped at the elbow, a prehensile tail and another arm (fully mechanical) with a plasma cannon welded to it.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork dissolve itself into a billion tiny micro organisms each with completely different DNA coding that the original?

No, but then it doesn't need to.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok create a new species of Ork never seen before?

Sure, why not? Grotsnik is capable of replacing Ork brains with LIVE SQUIGS and getting a functional organism. Nobody really knows what Mad Doks can do when they set their minds to it.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok sit back and merely think about a new life form and watch it appear from out of the Ork fungus?

No, that effect would require a whole lot of Orks all thinking about it at once, and probably they wouldn't bother.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork instantly convey all the conditions that caused it's death back to the Warboss for further study on ways to adapt?

No, but the Orks seem to do just fine without this particular ability.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork ever be anything but an Ork, no matter how much cyborg parts it has?

This is nonsensical. Can a Tyranid ever be anything but a Tyranid? Obviously not, it's a definitional paradox. Can one Ork be wildly different from another physically, even different enough to potentially count as a different species? Absolutely.


How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

Can Tyranid basic infantry survive in space?

Are there any Tyranids that can turn their enemies into helpless small animals?


Not to mention, Tyranids have one enormous weakness that Orks don't share; synapse dependence. One lucky bomb takes out one Hive Tyrant, and a whole section of the Tyranid battle-line collapses. If an Ork Warboss is killed, yes, it'll provoke infighting; AFTER the battle is over. The orks won't bother to hash the chain of command out until they've killed everything that isn't green, whereas the Tyranids turn into animals as soon as the synapse chain is broken.

BeRzErKeR wrote:How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

No, but they have their own methods. Trygons and Mawlocs creating tunnel networks underground, for example.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Can Tyranid basic infantry survive in space?

I'd say yes - I wouldn't expect hive ships to be air tight.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Are there any Tyranids that can turn their enemies into helpless small animals?

Dominatrices and Norn Queens can by reusing their biomass. You didn't stipulate how.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Not to mention, Tyranids have one enormous weakness that Orks don't share; synapse dependence. One lucky bomb takes out one Hive Tyrant, and a whole section of the Tyranid battle-line collapses. If an Ork Warboss is killed, yes, it'll provoke infighting; AFTER the battle is over. The orks won't bother to hash the chain of command out until they've killed everything that isn't green, whereas the Tyranids turn into animals as soon as the synapse chain is broken.

Not true. There's overlapping synaptic links all the time. Hive Tyrants are supported by Warriors, Primes, Shrikes, Tervigons and Zoanthropes, all of which are synaptic links, not to mention main assaults are supported by Dominatrices, which are the ultimate synaptic link.

-Loki- wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

No, but they have their own methods. Trygons and Mawlocs creating tunnel networks underground, for example.

yes but thats not the same because the Orks can teleport from space but Trygongs and Mawlocs have to be on the planet before tunneling,

Dominatrices and Norn Queens can by reusing their biomass. You didn't stipulate how.

But by that time, the enemies have already been processed into raw biomass; they have lost all identity. So the point still stands. 'Nids do not have Weirdboyz, Orks have no Zoanthropes.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork dissolve itself into a billion tiny micro organisms each with completely different DNA coding that the original?

No, but then it doesn't need to.

Might not need too, but this ability is very freaking handy in a pinch, and the Orks will never be able to do it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok create a new species of Ork never seen before?

Sure, why not? Grotsnik is capable of replacing Ork brains with LIVE SQUIGS and getting a functional organism. Nobody really knows what Mad Doks can do when they set their minds to it.

That is just an Ork with a new brain, but still technically an Ork. It is true we do not know what a Mad Dok is capable of, though most of it just happens on accident... The same thing can be said about the Hive Mind, but the difference is: nothing the Hive Mind does is on accident.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok sit back and merely think about a new life form and watch it appear from out of the Ork fungus?

No, that effect would require a whole lot of Orks all thinking about it at once, and probably they wouldn't bother.

Just one more thing the Hive Mind can do by will alone... Orks might be able to, more than likely not though, and it would be an accident that is too little too late

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork instantly convey all the conditions that caused it's death back to the Warboss for further study on ways to adapt?

No, but the Orks seem to do just fine without this particular ability.

When it is down to just Orks and Nids, every advantage the Hive Mind has that Orks do not, equals one more nail in the Ork's coffin lid

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork ever be anything but an Ork, no matter how much cyborg parts it has?

This is nonsensical. Can a Tyranid ever be anything but a Tyranid? Obviously not, it's a definitional paradox. Can one Ork be wildly different from another physically, even different enough to potentially count as a different species? Absolutely.

Well, in my opinion, "Tyranid" is a generalized term that simply describes the many races of creatures who are under the iron will of the Hive Mind. So the equal generalized Ork term would be "Greenskin". Yes, an Ork can die and release a spore that could be a different type of Greenskin... But they are limited to just the few types we have already seen... Tyranids can make a new race of creatures with different DNA codes unlike anything we have seen before... Yes we would still call that new creature a Tyranid, but only because it is ruled by the Hive Mind.

An Ork can and may make physical changes enough to where they could potentially be considered as a different species of Greenskin, but on the basic molecular level it is still an Ork with other similarities to an Ork. The Hive Mind can produce a new creature, with no similarities to any other creature with DNA coding different from any other creature, but the term Tyranid would still generally apply loosely simply because it is controlled by the Hive Mind.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
How about some counter-points;
1)Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?
2)Can Tyranid basic infantry survive in space?
3)Are there any Tyranids that can turn their enemies into helpless small animals?

1) Well, no... But thanks for bringing your biomass closer to us and saving us the trouble of tracking you down
2)Yes, I believe they can. Under the will of the Hive Mind the basic infantry can keep fighting long after they should rightfully have died.
3) Yes, compared to a Carnifex lots of enemies are helpless small animals. But on a more serious note, take a dip into a digestion pool and we can do one better than making you a helpless small animal.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Not to mention, Tyranids have one enormous weakness that Orks don't share; synapse dependence. One lucky bomb takes out one Hive Tyrant, and a whole section of the Tyranid battle-line collapses. If an Ork Warboss is killed, yes, it'll provoke infighting; AFTER the battle is over. The orks won't bother to hash the chain of command out until they've killed everything that isn't green, whereas the Tyranids turn into animals as soon as the synapse chain is broken.

Even when a lesser Tyranid has lost contact with a synapse creature, they will still fight to the death and are still combat effective. By the time frame we are talking about, I'm sure the Hive Mind will have thought of many many different ways around this issue though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just thought of another Tyranid creature that might be cool and could aide in the feasting upon the galaxy:

A shambling gelatinous blob made from the same stuff of the digestion pool, but living and mobile. Imagine it slurping and sloshing it's way across the battle field, gathering biomass as it builds momentum. Imagine an Ork boy cutting it in half with his choppa, and now suddenly there are two blobs the Ork has to fight. Each hack and slash just makes smaller blobs still trying to eat you. Shootas would be worthless because the bullets would just pass harmlessly through the blob. Flame throwers would only cook the outer layers of the blob essentially forming a protective shell. Once a glob of this stuff got on you it would start to eat you alive and never let go, growing bigger and bigger as it digests your flesh...

You know what? i'm having this same discussion with a friend of mine.

He supports tyranids, i support orks.

Why i think orks would win? first, they are orks, they always win with his logic. And second, they have something that tyranids have: Imagination and freaking WAAGH energy.

Warnolo wrote:You know what? i'm having this same discussion with a friend of mine.

He supports tyranids, i support orks.

Why i think orks would win? first, they are orks, they always win with his logic.

Actually, the Ork 'logic' of winning doesn't work against Tyranids. The 'if they lose, they won because they can have another go' turns into 'if they lose, they're sitting in a digestion pool waiting to be slurped up by a hive ship'.

Warnolo wrote:And second, they have something that tyranids have: Imagination and freaking WAAGH energy.

You can't say that the hive mind doesn't have imagination with a straight face. Some of the fethed up gak they've created needs serious imagination.

As for Waaagh energy, I don't see how that helps them 'win'.

As for Waaagh energy, I don't see how that helps them 'win'.

Orks have very few actual psykers (fewer than humans, at any rate), but each Ork has tremendous subconcious potential, which is precisely what allows much of their weaponry to work. Similarly, 'red ones go fasta' is a common principle of Ork vehicle design, despite the clear lack of logic involved. If such psychic power is condensed into a mob of Orks brimming with Waaagh! fury, there is very little they cannot accomplish (various accounts from the Black Library indicate that when in a full berserker rage, an Ork can lose an arm and continue killing everything around him). Now with a Weirdboy do channel that power into physical energy, "mosquitos" and Carnifexes alike had best take cover.

Weirdboys go insane when the enter the shadow of the warp.

I just thought of another Tyranid creature that might be cool and could aide in the feasting upon the galaxy:

A shambling gelatinous blob made from the same stuff of the digestion pool, but living and mobile. Imagine it slurping and sloshing it's way across the battle field, gathering biomass as it builds momentum. Imagine an Ork boy cutting it in half with his choppa, and now suddenly there are two blobs the Ork has to fight. Each hack and slash just makes smaller blobs still trying to eat you. Shootas would be worthless because the bullets would just pass harmlessly through the blob. Flame throwers would only cook the outer layers of the blob essentially forming a protective shell. Once a glob of this stuff got on you it would start to eat you alive and never let go, growing bigger and bigger as it digests your flesh...

A blob like that would require a huge amount of fluid in order to survive; if the Orks happen to be in a particularly warm area, this creature will begin to evaporate, or at the very least weaken. Further, a flame thrower would likely have the same effect, but even assuming it does form a protective shell around this blob, said blob will slowly suffocate within its new prison.

Also, how will it communicate with the hive mind? If it has a brain, it becomes an easy target even for Orks (it only takes one lucky shot to kill it, after all); if it survives long enough to actually reach the Orks, a quick choppa to the brain should disable it. If it does not have a brain, it cannot be relied upon to attack the Orks rather than the Tyranids, as it will have no synaptic link to the hive mind nor will it have any ability to recognize other Tyranids as allies. There is also an issue of how this creature can support itself; if it is single celled, it will become tremendously inefficient and die within minutes. If it has multiple cells, it will need a brain of some kind to control its movements, bringing us back to the previous issue.

Shrouger wrote:

I just thought of another Tyranid creature that might be cool and could aide in the feasting upon the galaxy:

A shambling gelatinous blob made from the same stuff of the digestion pool, but living and mobile. Imagine it slurping and sloshing it's way across the battle field, gathering biomass as it builds momentum. Imagine an Ork boy cutting it in half with his choppa, and now suddenly there are two blobs the Ork has to fight. Each hack and slash just makes smaller blobs still trying to eat you. Shootas would be worthless because the bullets would just pass harmlessly through the blob. Flame throwers would only cook the outer layers of the blob essentially forming a protective shell. Once a glob of this stuff got on you it would start to eat you alive and never let go, growing bigger and bigger as it digests your flesh...

A blob like that would require a huge amount of fluid in order to survive; if the Orks happen to be in a particularly warm area, this creature will begin to evaporate, or at the very least weaken. Further, a flame thrower would likely have the same effect, but even assuming it does form a protective shell around this blob, said blob will slowly suffocate within its new prison.

Also, how will it communicate with the hive mind? If it has a brain, it becomes an easy target even for Orks (it only takes one lucky shot to kill it, after all); if it survives long enough to actually reach the Orks, a quick choppa to the brain should disable it. If it does not have a brain, it cannot be relied upon to attack the Orks rather than the Tyranids, as it will have no synaptic link to the hive mind nor will it have any ability to recognize other Tyranids as allies. There is also an issue of how this creature can support itself; if it is single celled, it will become tremendously inefficient and die within minutes. If it has multiple cells, it will need a brain of some kind to control its movements, bringing us back to the previous issue.

It could just be like a starfish.

But then all of its other advantages disappear. For one, it would move rather slowly, and an Ork could easily hack off its limbs.

Shrouger wrote:But then all of its other advantages disappear. For one, it would move rather slowly, and an Ork could easily hack off its limbs.

No, I mean that it would be able to fuction like a starfish, but move quickly and gooey.

-Loki- wrote: Actually, the Ork 'logic' of winning doesn't work.

Fixed that for you! It's just a reflection of how free the species is of worrisome traits like fear and despair. Much like your feral tyranids.

Warnolo wrote:And second, they have something that tyranids have: Imagination and freaking WAAGH energy.

-Loki- wrote:You can't say that the hive mind doesn't have imagination with a straight face. Some of the fethed up gak they've created needs serious imagination.

As for Waaagh energy, I don't see how that helps them 'win'.

You can't say that the Waaagh doesn't help them 'win' with a straight face. Some of the fethed up gak they've done with it is seriously powerful.

You can't say that the Waaagh doesn't help them 'win' with a straight face. Some of the fethed up gak they've done with it is seriously powerful.

Exactly. Just as saying that spores kill everyone on the field (which all the Black Library novels indicate they do not...) for the Tyranids, so would it be extremely unbalanced to give every Ork feel no pain as well as an extra close combat attack for the duration of a Waaagh!, though both would clearly occur. An Ork mob in the throes of a Waaagh! rage can shrug off virtually any small arms fire and go on to destroy the enemy in close combat. Now, if, as -Loki- suggested, the Hive Mind were to dismiss the Orks as brute beasts without power, it would be in for a rather nasty surprise when a Weirdboy disrupts the synaptic link for an entire army.

Well i would say that if orks die then releases spores and the tyranid eats ork and other tyranids to replenish also in the codex of tyranids the stupidity and in fighting of the orks would lead to their downfall i think

plasma_puppy wrote:...the stupidity and in fighting of the orks would lead to their downfall i think

Dat's wot all da 'umies thought too. Just cause dey orks didn't talk all gud and proppa like dey is stupid. You'd think da boyz beating the everloving gak out of everything and anything would be enough for a modicum of respekt. But don't you mind dem, no Sorr, dey likes to underestimated, leads to a good larf all around when everybody else id dead.

the stupidity and in fighting of the orks would lead to their downfall i think

I'd refer to the arguments earlier in the thread, if I were you. Both points have been sucessfully adressed in favor of the Orks. But, as Scrabb so eloquently remarked, underestimating the Orks would actually help them. Given the prevalent "orks are stupid" argument, it seems the Hive Mind might make the same mistake.

Many are forgetting that often a time, a psyker, in this instance a weirdboy, would go insane, or become overwhelmed attempting to hold back the Shadow in the Warp.

That's very true. The Shadow in the Warp not only prevents ships entering or leaving the system, but also makes is very hard to use psychic powers. So far the only psyker able to do so has been Tigerius.

Shrouger wrote:A blob like that would require a huge amount of fluid in order to survive; if the Orks happen to be in a particularly warm area, this creature will begin to evaporate, or at the very least weaken. Further, a flame thrower would likely have the same effect, but even assuming it does form a protective shell around this blob, said blob will slowly suffocate within its new prison.

Also, how will it communicate with the hive mind? If it has a brain, it becomes an easy target even for Orks (it only takes one lucky shot to kill it, after all); if it survives long enough to actually reach the Orks, a quick choppa to the brain should disable it. If it does not have a brain, it cannot be relied upon to attack the Orks rather than the Tyranids, as it will have no synaptic link to the hive mind nor will it have any ability to recognize other Tyranids as allies. There is also an issue of how this creature can support itself; if it is single celled, it will become tremendously inefficient and die within minutes. If it has multiple cells, it will need a brain of some kind to control its movements, bringing us back to the previous issue.

Oh come on! Haven't you people seen "The Blob" movies? It had it's own theme song and everything:
"Beware of The Blob, it creeps
And leaps and glides and slides
Across the floor
Right through the door
And all around the wall
A splotch, a blotch
Be careful of The Blob"

As for needing fluids to survive, it wouldn't actually have to be "fluids" needed to sustain the Blob. Each time it sloshed along the ground it would be eating any plants, grass, sand, minerals, bugs, lawn furniture, dead bodies, spilled blood, etc. etc... It would dissolve, eat, and digest ANYTHING it touched, feel no pain, slip into any crack or crevasse, and be a mindless eating machine.

If a few of the other Tyranid creatures get in the way, no big deal, they still serve in battle as food for the Blob.

To counter your counter point about flame throwers: The Blob does not need to breathe. All the nutrients it needs can come from the spot of ground it is standing on. It could also perhaps eat a hole and tunnel under ground to come up underneath the Ork Boy with the flamer. If it leaves behind the outer baked shell the Ork Boy would never know what is happening. The dirt it eats between where it submerged and the distance to the Ork Boy would be more than enough to replace the biomass left behind... Then perhaps what ever blob residue is still stuck to the underside of the baked shell is sufficient to start eating that shell and make a whole new Blob again.

I noticed though, it seems you are trying to counter with scientific points. And although the points you are making do have sound logic behind them according to human knowledge: we are talking about science fiction. Kudos to you though, they are good points if we are talking about real life events.

However, if we can safely assume that Orks can accidently piece together advanced technology with out any blueprints or prior knowledge, then we can assume that the Hive Mind can purposefully put together advanced life forms with enough ingenuity that they don't just bleed out and die within minutes of being born... If the Hive Mind designs the creature to serve a particular purpose then rest assured the Hive Mind already thought of all the needed bodily functions to make sure that creature serves it purpose.

Personally I would like to see counter points more along the lines of what the Orks would do to combat the new threats being pumped out. When you where talking about Rok Cannons and the such, the counter points I made where based on Tyranid tactics. The conversation wouldn't have been very fun if I countered with stuff like: In order to propel a rock of such magnitude the Orks would need several small nuclear batteries calibrated to 7.5 gigawatts and each with an electric current of 7,000 amps blah blah blah you get my point...

Again, the points you are making have strong scientific reasoning behind them, and good job... But lets try to keep this on a science fiction level, and more along the lines of counter tactics. Pretty please!?!?

Again, the points you are making have strong scientific reasoning behind them, and good job... But lets try to keep this on a science fiction level, and more along the lines of counter tactics. Pretty please!?!?

*sigh* oh very well, if you insist...

In that case, I have some thoughts for some Ork technology that might help:

Using recovered astronomic arrays to bypass the Warp Shadow cast by the Hive Fleet; remember that Chaos will be much more active now that the souls of the IoM have been devoured. Said arrays, powered by the tremendous energy of Weirdboyz (note that each is significantly more powerful than most psykers of other races) could serve as beacons for the Warp, allowing a number of advantages:
1. Shokk Attack guns could be specially modified to attract and temporarily summon Daemons in the Tyranid lines.
2. It could be used to actually disrupt the Hive Mind's synaptic link (if it breaks through the shadow it casts, why not)?

Shrouger wrote:Using recovered astronomic arrays to bypass the Warp Shadow cast by the Hive Fleet; remember that Chaos will be much more active now that the souls of the IoM have been devoured. Said arrays, powered by the tremendous energy of Weirdboyz (note that each is significantly more powerful than most psykers of other races) could serve as beacons for the Warp, allowing a number of advantages:

Two problems. One, no such device exists in the fluff at the moment. The Shadow in the Warp effectively blocks all psychic energy. Two, you require Weirdboyz to actually use their powers to begin with, something that the Shadow in the Warp makes extremely hazardous. If they managed to use their powers initially, they could power such a device. But it would be extremely unreliable to use even at the best of times, and again, such a device hasn't been hinted at in the fluff.

In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books (don't remember exactly which), an Ork Warlord filled a derelict ship with Weirdboys and Minderz and just left it in the Warp. When the Weirdboys detected an Imperial relief force approaching the system, they launched a massive psychic attack, which had the dual effect of dropping the Imperial ship out of the Warp and summoning a massive number of daemons aboard the Imperial vessels (the Weirdboys all died, of course).

While the dropping-out-of-the-Warp effect would be pointless against Nids, summoning a crapton of daemons aboard the Hive Ships would certainly be a useful alpha-strike, particularly as the Tyranids gain no biomass from fighting Daemons.

I'm on the last Gaunts Ghosts book right now, and I can say, that hasn't happened yet.

Also, the Shadow in the Warp is at its strongest around the ships, which are the things that project it primarily. The weirdboyz on that ship would have a worse time trying to use psychic powers than weirdboyz on the ground.

I'll consult my omnibuses, then. Something of the kind definitely happened, I just can't remember exactly where.

See, the thing about Orks is that they don't really mind dying. Yes, those Weirdboyz would have trouble using their psychic powers. Yes, there'd be horrific side-effects, probably they'd die. But a 100% fatality rate wouldn't stop the Orks from doing it! And if even one hive ship is taken apart by daemons, that's worth a few dead Weirdboys. Either the Nids have to delay to gather up and recycle the debris, or there's a few less gribblies to wade through, and either way makes it a little bit better for the boyz on the ground.

EDIT: Ok, it wasn't in any of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, it was in the Ciaphas Cain books. Now let me just find the actual reference. . .

EDIT 2: Found it. It's in Death or Glory. The weirdboyz took out the Imperial navigators, and were omnomed by the daemons attracted by the massive psychic pulse of energy.

I remember reading that. I also recall that their ship was one of the luckier ones; they managed to make it out of the warp safely, but the psychic shock from the Weirdboyz (compounded by the Navigator's death) could also have torn the ship apart.

BeRzErKeR wrote:See, the thing about Orks is that they don't really mind dying. Yes, those Weirdboyz would have trouble using their psychic powers. Yes, there'd be horrific side-effects, probably they'd die. But a 100% fatality rate wouldn't stop the Orks from doing it! And if even one hive ship is taken apart by daemons, that's worth a few dead Weirdboys. Either the Nids have to delay to gather up and recycle the debris, or there's a few less gribblies to wade through, and either way makes it a little bit better for the boyz on the ground.

Not sure I follow that reasoning. If they die while doing it, then it doesn't work. That would certainly stop them doing it.

Also, you seem to forgot just how many hive ships there are. Fleets don't move around with only one. Also, the death of a hive ship sends out a psychic scream that tells the other hive ships in the fleet to calve. They're not going to bother recycling the dead hive ship - they just all birth new hive ships. Right away. Every hive ship. This hardly affects the fighting capabilities of the fleet either, since the hive ships aren't doing the bulk of the fighting. The swarms of drone ships do that.

Edit - I realize you might want a reference for this. 4th edition Tyranid codex, page 27, inset box. 'The Hydra Effect'.

The Spartans had a 100% fatality rate at the Battle of Thermopylae. They still accomplished what they set out to do; they delayed the Persians long enough for Greece to unite against them. In this case, if every Weirdboy on the ship is murdered by daemons immediately after launching their massive psychic blast, they all die; BUT, they still did what they set out to do.

Furthermore, if every hive ship in the fleet calves; Hurray! The Orks just tricked the fleet into wasting an ENORMOUS amount of biomass doing something that won't have much of an effect. Those extra hive ships aren't free; every ton of matter that goes into spawning a new hive ship is a ton that isn't turning into gaunts, carnifexes and tyrants on the ground.

Not to mention that a Hive Ship tends to have a fairly large crew complement of its own; it may not seem like much, but being short the few million Gaunts worth of biomass onboard could in itself be the difference between taking an Ork stronghold and being repulsed.

Shrouger wrote:*sigh* oh very well, if you insist...
In that case, I have some thoughts for some Ork technology that might help:
Using recovered astronomic arrays to bypass the Warp Shadow cast by the Hive Fleet; remember that Chaos will be much more active now that the souls of the IoM have been devoured. Said arrays, powered by the tremendous energy of Weirdboyz (note that each is significantly more powerful than most psykers of other races) could serve as beacons for the Warp, allowing a number of advantages:
1. Shokk Attack guns could be specially modified to attract and temporarily summon Daemons in the Tyranid lines.
2. It could be used to actually disrupt the Hive Mind's synaptic link (if it breaks through the shadow it casts, why not)?

Don't get me wrong, some science and logic are good to use as counter points. Especially since I have a tendency to ramble on like a mad man. Before, as an example, I can understand it may have seemed like I painted myself in a corner with that "blob protective shell" statement. Logically if the blob suddenly has a hard shell casing surrounding it, what is it going to do now? So it was good thing we cleared that up...

In response to your new guns:*pushes nerd glasses on to nose* Well, in order to punch through into the immaterial realm one would need a flux capacitor with a transdimension samoflange dongle calibrated to near perfect precision of 9 to the 17th power I joke, I kid...I'm a funny guy... Sorry, I will stop

Shokk Gun, is that the big gun that creates a small hole in space/time and shoots out snotlings at warp speed? If it is tearing a hole in the space/time continuum then perhaps it might be slightly modified to make bigger holes large enough to shoot chaos beasts at warp speeds. I don't think a Daemon Prince would ever get caught up by a gun like that; and if he did he would be the laughing stock of all the other Daemon Princes. But I think I see where you are going with this. If my memory serves me correctly, USING the Shokk Gun is just as dangerous as being SHOT with the Shokk Gun. It could possibly summon the warp beasts into your ship, or your front lines just as well. That is the problem with Ork accidental technology, it is an accident when it gets made, and if it works after that it is an accident too. And as I said before, nothing the Hive Mind does, is an accident.

As for breaking synaptic links, it is actually not that big of a deal if it does happen. Every Nid has instinctual behavior, thanks to the new codex this behavior is defined by two categories.
1) Feed (a.k.a. seek and destroy)
2) Lurk (a.k.a. hide and shoot)
The meaner Nids who lost synaptic link will still charge forward to chow down on the nearest Ork, which is most likely what the Hive Mind was telling them to do in the first place. The less meaner Nids, whose instinct is to Lurk, move towards the nearest cover and shoot at the nearest Ork... Which is most likely what the Hive Mind was telling them to do anyway. So either way, IF the synapse link is broken, the Nids on the battle field will still be out there trying to do the basic function they where put there for: KILLING... they will just be less organized about it.

Also, synapse has no effect on some Nids, like Genestealers. Perhaps by this point in the war, there will be more Nids with "brood telepathy" like the Genestealers.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Spartans had a 100% fatality rate at the Battle of Thermopylae. They still accomplished what they set out to do; they delayed the Persians long enough for Greece to unite against them. In this case, if every Weirdboy on the ship is murdered by daemons immediately after launching their massive psychic blast, they all die; BUT, they still did what they set out to do.

You are misunderstanding the Shadow in the Warp. It doesn't kill you after you use psychic energy, it makes it extremely painful and unreliable to actually use it in the first place. They wouldn't actually get their psychic attack to work.

And I'm pretty sure the Spartans at Thermopylae weren't trying to harness psychic energy while under the influence of a race of galactic insects. I could be wrong though...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Furthermore, if every hive ship in the fleet calves; Hurray! The Orks just tricked the fleet into wasting an ENORMOUS amount of biomass doing something that won't have much of an effect. Those extra hive ships aren't free; every ton of matter that goes into spawning a new hive ship is a ton that isn't turning into gaunts, carnifexes and tyrants on the ground.

It's entirely possible for those hive ships to break off and form splinter fleets. It's not a good thing. Splinter fleet becomes as big as main hive fleets after harvesting enough worlds.

As to the biomass, do you not understand how much biomass the Tyranids have in reserve? The bulk of what they take from a planet isn't even used by the vanguard fleet. It's back in the depths of space with the bulk of the hive fleet that people do not actually see, sitting in hive ships that dwarf Imperial battleships.

The Ork Shokk Attack gun could also use the astronomic arrays to guide its shots; nothing too accurate (it could still miss altogether), just enough to target it in the general vincinity of the enemy. Assuming the gun is relatively far removed, it should have fewer difficulties than one might expect. I would imagine that roughly four times out five, the gun would hit more or less on target. The other one in five... let's just agree that other Orks will learn to give Meks a very wide berth (more so than usual).

Synaptic disruption may not lead to a complete rout, but it can do a number of things;
The 'Nid squads will be far less coordinated than usual, perhaps just enough to run for the nearest Gretchin Mob while Flash Gitz bring their weapons to bear. Every bit helps.

Also, I think (I am not certain, so please correct me if I am wrong) that being disconnected from the Hive Mind will stun most lower bio-forms for several moments, easily enough for an Ork mob to encircle and butcher them.

This may not be the weapon that wins the war, but it can certainly help, especially in desperate situations.

Shrouger wrote:Also, I think (I am not certain, so please correct me if I am wrong) that being disconnected from the Hive Mind will stun most lower bio-forms for several moments, easily enough for an Ork mob to encircle and butcher them.

There's certainly been no indication that this is the case in the fluff, at least that I've read.

I was going back and reading the 4th edition fluff, and the final few paragraphs are pretty bleak. It says that there's every indication of the current hive fleets being vanguard fleets for the main push. Now, consider that the Imperium is always said to have the largest organised armed forces, with the most vehicles and the greatest destructive capability. It says that the Imperium would been to increase its Imperial Guard recruitment by 500% if more Tyranids arrive, basically arming every man, woman and chile in segmentums Solar, Pacificus and Ultima, just to slow down the hive mind.

As to the biomass, do you not understand how much biomass the Tyranids have in reserve? The bulk of what they take from a planet isn't even used by the vanguard fleet. It's back in the depths of space with the bulk of the hive fleet that people do not actually see, sitting in hive ships that dwarf Imperial battleships.

In that case, the biomass is still not availbe to the invasion fleet. A galaxy's worth of biomass fifty years away won't do the fleet itself any good if it can't support itself that long. I would imagine that harvesting biomass would be extremely important to these fleets, specifically because the main fleet is held in reserve where its resources cannot be accessed. So the point still stands.

Shrouger wrote:

As to the biomass, do you not understand how much biomass the Tyranids have in reserve? The bulk of what they take from a planet isn't even used by the vanguard fleet. It's back in the depths of space with the bulk of the hive fleet that people do not actually see, sitting in hive ships that dwarf Imperial battleships.

In that case, the biomass is still not availbe to the invasion fleet. A galaxy's worth of biomass fifty years away won't do the fleet itself any good if it can't support itself that long. I would imagine that harvesting biomass would be extremely important to these fleets, specifically because the main fleet is held in reserve where its resources cannot be accessed. So the point still stands.

It's not that far away thanks to the Narvhal. Tyranids can move from the outer system to the inner system at near light speed.

What is awesome about the 4th edition codex is it gives some insight into the survivability of Tyranids.

I gak you not, it describes Carnifexes surviving the exterminatus of a planet, sitting in the atmopshere-less rock left by the cyclonic torpedoes regenerating wounds. So, Tyranids can survive in space. And a cyclonic torpedo.

There's certainly been no indication that this is the case in the fluff, at least that I've read.

Dawn of War II is considered canon (there was a series written about it for the Black Library, I believe. That may have been the first game), and I do recall specifically that when the last synapse creature within a general area is killed, it radiates a shock wave that knocks back lesser bio-forms, sometimes finishing them off. Even in cases were they do survive, the various Gaunts are immobilized for the few moments it takes for them to land and get up again.

Shrouger wrote:Dawn of War II is considered canon (there was a series written about it for the Black Library, I believe. That may have been the first game), and I do recall specifically that when the last synapse creature within a general area is killed, it radiates a shock wave that knocks back lesser bio-forms, sometimes finishing them off. Even in cases were they do survive, the various Gaunts are immobilized for the few moments it takes for them to land and get up again.

Game mechanics are not considered canon. There's certain things they need to do in the game to balance it.

I gak you not, it describes Carnifexes surviving the exterminatus of a planet, sitting in the atmopshere-less rock left by the cyclonic torpedoes regenerating wounds. So, Tyranids can survive in space. And a cyclonic torpedo.

I don't disbelieve you that the Codex said such things, but that sounds ridiculous... How can a Carnifex endure such an event when the Valhallan 12th (under Colonel Mostrue, I believe) destroyed countless Gaunts and tens of Carnifexes, Zoanthropes etc. with an artillery barrage?