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Post by: Kroothawk
Polonius wrote:Mr Mystery wrote:Indeed. The context of 'pre-heresy' armour is GW's IP, as in terms of wargaming, pre-heresy is distinctly 40k.
I really don't mean to pick on you, but you should post "Disclaimer: I don't know anything about IP law" in every single one of your posts. Somebody might actually listen to something you say.
Thanks for bringing some reason into this thread.
Maybe you can answer a specific question that is relevant here:
GW claims to have either R, C, or TM on the word Tau (relevant as one walker was said to be used with Tau):
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=5
On the other hand I can't find any real reference to that IP protection (e.g. here http://www.warrealm.iwarp.com/ and here http://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/GWtm.html ) and remember that it was far too generic to be IP protected, therefore the name change to "Tau Empire". If they claim something false like that, is this illegal and would it have influence on the lawsuit?
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Post by: Polonius
Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.
Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.
All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.
And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"
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Post by: Hulksmash
^^This would make me chuckle. Didn't know that 5th amendment didn't apply in civil matters.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Hands up if your head hurts!
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Post by: Hulksmash
Oddly this is much more on point than the GK rumor threads....now those are making my head hurt. This is merely entertaining.
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Post by: loki old fart
Mr Mystery wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?
GW does indeed own IP on Salamanders, Eldar, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers etc. All of which CH had no hesitance in slapping on their products. If they hadn't done this, then fair enough. But they have. It's the same reason Ford cannot make a car, and call it an Impreza, and Subaru couldn't return the favour with a Focus of their own. They both make cars, they both have their own branding.
Triumph toledo / seat toledo your point was
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Polonius wrote:Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.
Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.
All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.
And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"
At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.
If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?
And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?
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Post by: Polonius
Mr Mystery wrote:At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.
If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?
And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?
Quite the opposite. You can't copyright an idea, only it's expression. you can patent an idea, but only if it's useful. Trademarks are for names. So, GW can claim a trademark for their name for an advanced alien species. Which means that if you try to market advanced alien tech using the name Tau, you are using GW's IP. Keep in mind that this sort of nominal use is often legal.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
EURGH! *head explodes*
Good lord this is confusing!
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Post by: Dysartes
Mr Mystery wrote:EURGH! *head explodes*
Good lord this is confusing!
Yup - and this is why I'm trying to avoid making up my mind either way as to whether they're in the right or wrong, and merely concentrating on commenting upon this I can prove to be false (i.e., that certain items produced by CH are identical to items produced by GW).
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Identical no, but very deliberately imitating.
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Post by: Flashman
Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.
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Post by: DB
Flashman wrote:Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.
well i think that EVERYBODY is right on this one - can we leave it there till the results come in? - my head is starting to ache now too... hahahaha
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Post by: Polonius
Well, if you read the other thread, I've actually found some statutes and case law on the subject. I mean, I have some legal training, but there are ways to actually predict the outcomes of litigation.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Of course there is Polonius.
Ask the Magic 8-Ball!
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
dietrich wrote:If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.
My money would totally be on Chapterhouse. I've never met the CH guys, but most of the GW staffers I know fit one or other of the geek stereotypes (skinny and unathletic or fat, beardy, and unathletic), whereas American wargamers I've met seem far more likely to be ex-Marines, or at least wrestled a little in high school.
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Post by: Lokirfellheart
Have you people seen the current pending news on the website- It shows a model they made that looks very similar to a Tyranid, and is blatantly described as being used as a Gribble, and they jokingly call it 'The doom of Chapterhouse'. Prehaps it will be.
Here it is in case it is removed soon:
One of the priviledges of running Chapterhouse is the ability to use the minis we create before anyone else can. This last Saturday I was able to put on the table our first alien mini with my tyranid army. I used him as a "Doom of Malantai (SP?)" I have to say it was akin to dropping a nuke on the board. His 6 inch aura ability is lethal when you couple it with a mycotic spore drop.
Production will begin this week, he is a our FIRST single piece pewter model which easily mounts on a 40 mm base (he has 2 tabs to mount in holes) and stands at 90 mm tall (without the base). Take a look below to see the painted version.
Witness "The Doom of Chapterhouse", hehe.
And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.
I do feel sorry for chapterhouse, but they did blatantly display GW CR stuff, and with GWs very strict take on this kind of stuff, I'm not suprised they sued. I think GW will win, but I don't necessarily want them to.
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Post by: dogma
LittleLeadMen wrote:
You can use any/all tropes you want. The issue is when you sell items that are direct knock-offs of another company, or when you use their IP to sell your wares.
To my understanding "knock-offs" are copies of valuable products either made with inferior materials, or sold at a price that is not reflective of the actual esteem associated with the brand.
Chapterhouse doesn't copy GW products. They sell alternative sculpts that are closely associated with something very much like the GW universe, which is not a violation of any moral or legal principle that I'm aware of. You may as well be angry at companies that produce 3rd party Apple peripherals.
Chapterhouse has taken a set of tropes, those established in wargaming by GW, and produces models consistent with them.
LittleLeadMen wrote:
However, I would rather see companies produce their own models, games, backgrounds, etc.
Why do you have a preference at all? Automatically Appended Next Post: Polonius wrote:
And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"
If the answer were something along the lines of "Because they're both science fiction models with an Asian aesthetic." or "Because they're both science fiction models." are any laws being explicitly violated, or is this something closer to a matter of judicial discretion?
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
I hope CH comes out of it well. They are beneficial to the greater hobby, the way some go on it's as if they are stealing food from the mouths of GW. If anything people have probably gone out and bought GW products just to make use of CH parts so it works both ways. GW have put together a questionable lawsuit and are using their typical bullying tactics to 'win' rather than presenting a reasonable case. It would be nice to see something turn out for the good of the hobby and not to suit GW's paranoid need to control customer choice. It's all about them needing to continually define "the hobby" as "the GW hobby" and keep a tight grip on everything therein, but wargaming and model making existed a long time before GW and will likely do so when they are gone, converting and kitbashing is "the hobby". This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true. What's closer to the truth is that very little will change either way regardless of the outcome of this case, other than the continued availability of CH products.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.
Noone has said that " CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!".
They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP.
It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit.
It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine".
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Post by: Polonius
Kanluwen wrote:Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.
Noone has said that " CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!". They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP. It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit. It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine". You're conflating a few concepts. If CH wins, that means that what they did was OK. And only that. GW could immediatly refile if CH goes over the line even a little bit more. Xerox is what is known as a potential genericized trademark, which means that it can be used without fear of dilution. Essentially the mark became so famous that it began to outgrow the niche it represents. Things like kleenex instead of facial tissue, chapstick instead of lip balm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark Actually, the real generic trademarks are ones we dont' even think of. Things like Kerosene or Aspririn. Tehy are so generic now that anybody can sell "aspirin"
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Post by: blackclaw1
My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge
Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,
I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.
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Post by: Dysartes
blackclaw1 wrote:My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge
Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,
I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.
Until a court has ruled on this civil matter, we can't say if they have or have not broken any of the numerous laws regarding Intellectual Property, trademarks or copyright, blackclaw1 - this is part of the reason theire's 40 pages of discussion regarding the matter across two threads at the moment, it isn't cut and dried.
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Post by: loki old fart
First of lets make things clear. I have not bought any chapterhouse bits, nor do I intend to.
I play orks, and they don’t make anything I need.
A lot of comparisons have been made with car parts, and fish. So I’ll start with cars
Edelbrock Make parts for Chevy’s etc, and are advertised as such. They don’t seem to have a problem, GM seems ok with this.
The 1970s was a great time for British custom cars, ford was winning at rallying.
Had a good range of cars, And the best known in England was the escort.
This came in three versions 1100/1300, 1600 (Mexico), and RS1600 (race rally special)
There were visual differences between the models, the 1600 models had larger wheels and the RS had large flared arches. Both had a revised dash, (separate oil temp gauges etc).
So companies started producing spoilers, replacement dashboards and flared arch kits, some of which were direct copies of the ford product. (Talk about stealing someone’s IP).
Ford certainly had the funds to sue these people. But they didn’t.
WHY?
1 It would show ford in a bad light.
2 Most people couldn’t afford afford a RS 1600, so sales wouldn’t have improved.
3 They sold thousands of 1100/1300 escorts to people, who wanted to bolt these bits on.
Most of if not all of these kits mentioned ford/escort/RS1600/ in their advertising.
Most where sold as fitting the ford escort or make your escort look like a RS1600
Ford knew that it would be hard to prove there case. As saying something fits something else is fair use.
Now for the fishy bit
People have likened CH to a parasite fish the remora,
The relationship between shark and remora is more of a symbiotic one.
The remora does things for the shark it can’t do for it’s self.
Like cleaning its teeth and gills.
Maybe GW could learn something there
Oh and Thank you for your time in researching this Polonius. I have enjoyed your posts, most enlightening.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
I think I may have found the crux of the problem.(I am not an IP lawyer but looked at the difference between chapterhouse and other companies NOT being sued...)
Lots of companies make ancillery and suplimentry products to be used with other companies products .They are not constantly being sued .
As far as I am aware GW is stating Chaptehouse is in breach or tradmark laws for using GW trademarks for 'advertising' chapterhouse products.(Paraphasing loads of lawyer speak.)
Where as Chapterhouse is claiming the use of tradmark to show intended use.
Using the 'body-kit' company relationship with car manufacturers listed above by Loki.
Speed Sports Body kits .
Give your car the look of a winning Rally car!
Our 'Rally Pack' will fit Ford Escort 1100,1300 and 1600.(The Ford Escort RS 2000 doesn't need it!)
This is fair use of trade mark to show intended use.
Where as
Ford RS 2000 Body kits.
The Ford RS 2000 body kits will for all type of Ford Escort Cars.
This is using Ford Trade Marks (Escort RS 2000) . And could imply Ford endorcement licence or even manufacture of the body kits!
Applied to the case in hand.(Just an example NOT based on any actual advert/web page.)
Chapterhouse 28mm Power Armour Shoulder pads.
Get the detail and depth of character you deserve on your minatures !
With this exelent range of Power Armour Shoulder Pads.
Suitable for use with most 28mm minatures, including Games Workshops 40k(tm) Space Marines(tm) , and Chaos Space Marines(tm).
This is a CLEAR case of using a trade mark to illustrate 'intended use'.As it used the trade marks to illustrate what the seller means by a '28mm minature'.By using a well known brand and atributing the trademark to the owning company.
Where as...
Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) Space Marine (tm) Shoulder Pads.
We have a wide range of Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space marine (tm) shoulder pads.
That cover all chapters listed in the Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) codexes.
This is NOT just using the trade mark to show intended use.It could cause the reader to think the product is lienced endorsed or even manufactured by GW , as it uses GW trade marks descriptions and terms in the advertising of the product.
Has this made the issue (as I see it) a bit clearer?
I would like BOTH parties to win , by GW letting Chapterhose continue to trade , and Chapterhouse showing more respect for GW trademarks and IP.
But I am reasonable like that ...
TTFN
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Post by: Polonius
I think Lanrak has explained one of the issues pretty well,based on my rough reading of the case law.
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Post by: Eldanar
Kanluwen wrote:Eldanar wrote:Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.
Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.
I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.
Except it's a terribly wrong analogy.
Microsoft was broken up because of packaging their browser and OS with computer bundles, and making it virtually impossible for the computers to run without them.
GW is not forcing you to play Warhammer or 40k or Lord of the Rings if you want to play a miniatures game.
This is more equivalent to the Xbox 360 v. PS3 v. Nintendo Wii. They're each completely separate systems, with completely different benefits.
Again:
There is no monopoly claim, at all, that is valid in this case. GW does not own the genre of "Tabletop Wargaming". They own Warhammer/40k/LOTR and the models/properties associated with those game systems and universes.
I was not trying to make a claim that there was any monopolistic practice involved here. Obviously, CH and Paulson Games have not yet filed a response, so we have no idea what they might claim. However, the point I was (very poorly) trying to make, that GW stifles and tries to utterly control 3d party business practices is valid. GW has a right to do this to a certain degree, and I respect GW's position. However, to my knowledge, GW has never won a case on the merits concerning its IP. Rather, GW uses its resources to outlast everyone it goes after, and/or to "punish" entities or people who do not adhere to its policies.
Some examples: removal of images from websites; no linking to the GW page from online sellers; restrictions on online sellers pricing; restrictions on BAM store's pricing; GW's noted history of "errors and gaffs" when opening a competing company store in an already existing market with independent retailers; quashing fanzines and fan-made movies, etc. There are probably several other instances as well that I have forgotten.
GW is a large corporate entity and it has basically been taking on small, independent operators; most of whom don't even have an accountant, much less an attorney, and are operating barely above the margins already. Most of these places cannot even afford the retainer fees for a good IP attorney. Add to this that GW has never had to win a case on the merits; all that GW has had to do is just file the Petition, request records, and take depositions. Typically, it's opponent has been worn out by then and is out of money, and is more than willing to settle.
These are similar tactics employed by Microsoft, generally speaking; and it was only after numerous complaints by would-be competitiors, providers and businesses that the Dept. of Justice moved to do something about it; and it was only after the DOJ threatened very strongly to enact anti-trust provisions that Microsoft agreed to "unpackage" its components and applications. ( BTW, Microsoft was never broken up, it was only threatened with that action; however, my understanding is that it did have to stop exclusively bundling its products and services and allow 3d party products and services in as part of the agreement).
The analogy I was trying to make was toward the general corporate philosophy and general business practices; not on whether product A is analogous to product B.
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Post by: punkow
given that the judge and the lawyers will be very amused in this case (what we're talking about? Miniatures??? representing aliens and strngely armoured guys???? You're kidding???)....
I hope CH wins ( but It will be difficult)...
I know control agencies have something more serious to do but we can say that GW is making a "dominant position abuse" cause they're using theyr control of the market to decide unilaterally prices. The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...
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Post by: Mr Mystery
punkow wrote:The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...
Except restaurants tend to get pissy if you walk in with a carry out and sit down. Be it their tournament or store, it's their rules. Like wise, there is a difference between producing material for the game that is your own (say, a new race for instance) and using someone elses IP to make a quick buck.
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Post by: punkow
The restaurants do not control the food market... You're not forced to go at tonio's restaurant if you wanna eat... but if you wanna play 40k you have to go to GW, and, in my opinion, if you wanna play a WARGAME you have to go to GW since WH40K and WHFB are today so relevant that GW substantially has the total control of the market...I obviously do not blame 'em for making such a successful product nor do I say they shouldn't gain from their IP ... but at least they should be forced to sell licenses to other producers, or naturally they will act as monopolist. I think that CH wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand for products that GW do not make for its own marketing strategy. And even if GW obviously has the right to make its own strategy , It should be allowed to others to fill the "holes" and compete with the big GW... if not GW control prices as it wish and this isn't a good thing for the market...
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Post by: cgage00
Chapter house was in the wrong.
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Post by: punkow
Actually CH is surely wrong... but I simply do not like the actual status... I hope that the sentence will change the actual status, forcing GW to "open the market"
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Post by: Polonius
Eldanar wrote: However, to my knowledge, GW has never won a case on the merits concerning its IP. Rather, GW uses its resources to outlast everyone it goes after, and/or to "punish" entities or people who do not adhere to its policies.
It's not a good example, but at one point I found a case where GW won against a guy duping minis in his basement. I'm not sure how that bad boy was appealed, but it was.
Simply put, as you stated, GW has never gone after any entity with the wherewithall to defend itself, so they usually just fold.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
punkow wrote:The restaurants do not control the food market... You're not forced to go at tonio's restaurant if you wanna eat... but if you wanna play 40k you have to go to GW, and, in my opinion, if you wanna play a WARGAME you have to go to GW since WH40K and WHFB are today so relevant that GW substantially has the total control of the market...I obviously do not blame 'em for making such a successful product nor do I say they shouldn't gain from their IP ... but at least they should be forced to sell licenses to other producers, or naturally they will act as monopolist.
I think that CH wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand for products that GW do not make for its own marketing strategy. And even if GW obviously has the right to make its own strategy , It should be allowed to others to fill the "holes" and compete with the big GW... if not GW control prices as it wish and this isn't a good thing for the market...
If I want to eat a Chef's signature dish, I have to go to his restaurant. Hell, if I want a Big Mac, I have to go to McDonalds.
Why should they be forced to sell licenses for those things they produce themselves? RPG and PC Games are outsourced to those who know those markets better, likewise films now. Why should they have to split up their rights any further? Others ARE allowed to compete with GW, just not using GW's own IP.
I'm not meaning to single you out, but I really don't get the whole 'people should be allowed to use GW IP whenever' opinions. Not saying they're necessarily wrong either, I just don't get it.
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Post by: Polonius
Yeah, I'll never understand the "GW has a monopoly" argument. Yeah, only GW can sell, you know, GW products. And GW can tell you what you can and can't do in their stores. Aside from that, though, you can do whatever you want.
It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time.
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Post by: punkow
Why should they be forced to sell licenses for those things they produce themselves? RPG and PC Games are outsourced to those who know those markets better, likewise films now. Why should they have to split up their rights any further? Others ARE allowed to compete with GW, just not using GW's own IP. Yes it's right but what I'm saying is that others are not allowed to compete... Let's take a look at the wargame market... It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time. I really disagree... I think that even putting together all the other fantasy and sci-fi games you won't reach the size of the GW market... There are historical wargames with a generally older audience that normally play with various miniatures that are not necessarily made all by the same company... There are minor Fantasy and Sci-Fi wargames like Confrontation or AT-43 that have a very small audience, made for the largest part of former or actual GW players that want to try other games.... and then there is GW! GW is the first company you will find when you start wargames. It's hard to find someone that didn't start wargaming with GW stuff... I do not know the share of the market but I'm pretty sure we're talking about 50% or more... In this situation GW uses its dominant position distorting the market... The fact that WH40K is so widely played inhibits the rise of other games (since new players will always start with a game others already play so they can find opponents). This isn't necessarily negative: It means that GW products have been the best and won against other products... But in such a situation GW decides the prices, the release dates, often ruin the game balance to sell more minis (ehy Space wolves??? do you hear me???).... It's a monopolist behaviour and I do not like it... I think CH studios are wrong but I think that the simple existence of CH studios is a proof of the fact that GW has created something so great that a single company cannot satisfy all the demands (did you notice the increased relevance of forge world?) I think this situation isn't good for us (players and customers) so I will be very happy of an innovative sentence changing the absolute grip of GW on the market of table top wargames And... to makes things clear... I love GW.. I think that the game and the narration they created are wonderful, and that the Game designers deserve every cent they get... I'm a little unhappy with the marketing strategy their following and I'm sure that guys that decides this are not lovable nerds like us but managers that do not even imagine what is our passion... but now I risk to build a romantic-populist-communist-teaparty prosopopea so I quit (not sure about the grammar.... aaaah nevermind)
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't.
And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?
You even said it yourself, GW haven't achieved market dominance for nothing. They operate their own stores, nobody else does. That was a massive risk when they first went down that path, but it has paid off and handsomely. I'm certainly not aware of them doing a Microsoft and buyng out competitors just to take them out the market.
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Post by: Polonius
Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?
In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)
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Post by: punkow
Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't. They don't cause they do not need!! because there aren't competitors for the reasons I explained. I think this is a dominant position... I'm not using this terms with their formal meaning in microeconomics so maybe I messed up things... sorry.... That said... do not get me wrong... I do not accuse GW of being a monster... I just think that if they had competitors, prices would lower and that, all in all, I do not think that this would have negative impact on GW... They will always keep their IP rights ( I do not say CH should keep doing what it does without PYING anything to GW) and the world of 40K would expand and become even better. Btw let's see what the judge say...
32644
Post by: Mr Mystery
Polonius wrote:Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?
In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)
I take it CH's use of IP and copyrighted terms (Tervigon, instead of say, Brood Bug) changes things for them? Automatically Appended Next Post: punkow wrote:Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't.
They don't cause they do not need!! because there aren't competitors for the reasons I explained.
I think this is a dominant position... I'm not using this terms with their formal meaning in microeconomics so maybe I messed up things... sorry....
That said... do not get me wrong... I do not accuse GW of being a monster... I just think that if they had competitors, prices would lower and that, all in all, I do not think that this would have negative impact on GW... They will always keep their IP rights ( I do not say CH should keep doing what it does without PYING anything to GW) and the world of 40K would expand and become even better.
Btw let's see what the judge say...
There are competitors though. PP, Mantic, FoW as already mentioned, plus dozens if not hundreds of competing manufacturers/rules sets. Gw have never taken steps to kill off opposition, beyond continued market dominance.
752
Post by: Polonius
Mr Mystery wrote:Polonius wrote:Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?
In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)
I take it CH's use of IP and copyrighted terms (Tervigon, instead of say, Brood Bug) changes things for them?
Well, terms like Tervigon are trademarked, not copyrighted. And both are considered IP. Just to help clear that up.
The tervigon is a really, really grey area. It's not a registered trademark, only under common law. And GW has created a picture and a description/rules for the tervigon, but not the model. I doubt that's enough, but it's actually arguable that you can create a "Tervigon" model and market it as such.
If you're saying that they used the image GW created (the sketch) as the basis, that's also allowed, again, as long as the actual creation is not "substantially similar" Again, I'd recommend reading FASA v. Tomy http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-5.txt which does a really good job of demonstrating how copyright would apply to hobby products.
Marketing the brain bug as a "doom of malantai" might violate GW's trademarks. Marketing a model as a substitute for the Doom would be less likely to. Marketing the exact same model as the Alian Briain doom would not violate the trademarks. Copyright (for the image used) is still a factual issue, but if you read FASA v. Tomy it's really tough to succeed outside of direct copying.
207
Post by: Balance
Polonius wrote:
If you're saying that they used the image GW created (the sketch) as the basis, that's also allowed, again, as long as the actual creation is not "substantially similar" Again, I'd recommend reading FASA v. Tomy http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-5.txt which does a really good job of demonstrating how copyright would apply to hobby products.
Thank you for the explanation here. I assumed the sketch was a bit more 'powerful.'
7951
Post by: Kandle
@Polonius Just a quick question:
From what you have said in both threads then this is a case Not about what CH did then, but instead about what CH said about what they did?
21678
Post by: Karon
I hope that Chapterhouse wins, for the sole reason that I hate GW for their douchebaggery. (edit by Manchu)
But Chapterhouse were arrogant the way they advertised, they tried in no way to hide that they were just making models based off of GW models, and even naming them the same thing.
Like someone said, they put shoulderpads as "Space Marine Shoulderpads" not "Shoulderpads that could be used for Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines"
Chapterhouse will lose, but I hope not.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Define 'faggotry'.
Because you know, you're not meant to break rule #1 etc.
36295
Post by: Hückleberry
Mr Mystery wrote:Define 'faggotry'.
Because you know, you're not meant to break rule #1 etc.
+1
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Post by: Polonius
Kandle wrote:@Polonius Just a quick question:
From what you have said in both threads then this is a case Not about what CH did then, but instead about what CH said about what they did?
It's about both. In my completely non-expert opinion, I think GW has a stronger, although certainly not unbeatable, case with regards to the use of trademarks.
There is pretty solid caselaw that would allow CHS to sculpt very similar looking products.
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Post by: loki old fart
Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I think I may have found the crux of the problem.(I am not an IP lawyer but looked at the difference between chapterhouse and other companies NOT being sued...)
Lots of companies make ancillery and suplimentry products to be used with other companies products .They are not constantly being sued .
As far as I am aware GW is stating Chaptehouse is in breach or tradmark laws for using GW trademarks for 'advertising' chapterhouse products.(Paraphasing loads of lawyer speak.)
Where as Chapterhouse is claiming the use of tradmark to show intended use.
Using the 'body-kit' company relationship with car manufacturers listed above by Loki.
Speed Sports Body kits .
Give your car the look of a winning Rally car!
Our 'Rally Pack' will fit Ford Escort 1100,1300 and 1600.(The Ford Escort RS 2000 doesn't need it!)
This is fair use of trade mark to show intended use.
Where as
Ford RS 2000 Body kits.
The Ford RS 2000 body kits will for all type of Ford Escort Cars.
This is using Ford Trade Marks (Escort RS 2000) . And could imply Ford endorcement licence or even manufacture of the body kits!
Applied to the case in hand.(Just an example NOT based on any actual advert/web page.)
Chapterhouse 28mm Power Armour Shoulder pads.
Get the detail and depth of character you deserve on your minatures !
With this exelent range of Power Armour Shoulder Pads.
Suitable for use with most 28mm minatures, including Games Workshops 40k(tm) Space Marines(tm) , and Chaos Space Marines(tm).
This is a CLEAR case of using a trade mark to illustrate 'intended use'.As it used the trade marks to illustrate what the seller means by a '28mm minature'.By using a well known brand and atributing the trademark to the owning company.
Where as...
Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) Space Marine (tm) Shoulder Pads.
We have a wide range of Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space marine (tm) shoulder pads.
That cover all chapters listed in the Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) codexes.
This is NOT just using the trade mark to show intended use.It could cause the reader to think the product is lienced endorsed or even manufactured by GW , as it uses GW trade marks descriptions and terms in the advertising of the product.
Has this made the issue (as I see it) a bit clearer?
I would like BOTH parties to win , by GW letting Chapterhose continue to trade , and Chapterhouse showing more respect for GW trademarks and IP.
But I am reasonable like that ...
TTFN
The reason I used the mark 1 escort was because the kits where identical to the ford RS1600, having used the real car to make the moulds. (As people have suggested CH has done with shoulder pads and doors).
The real flares were steel and part of the wing.
The copies were fiberglass.
They avoided a court case by advertising them as replicas.
The later mk2 RS2000 fiberglass front was easy to spot. as the flute on the wing went the wrong way, and was a poor copy.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
No particularly strong feelings either way. I voted for Chapterhouse, just because I prefer having a diversity of bitz suppliers, even if I opt not to use them.
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Post by: Eldanar
Polonius wrote:Yeah, I'll never understand the "GW has a monopoly" argument. Yeah, only GW can sell, you know, GW products. And GW can tell you what you can and can't do in their stores. Aside from that, though, you can do whatever you want.
It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time.
It really depends on the parameters of how you define the "market" as to whether an entity has a monopoloy or not.
I actually went after my last post and looked up the definition of monopolization in Black's. The Sherman Antitrust Act defines monopolization as the power to fix or exclude competition, coupled with policies designed to use or preserve that power. Monopoly power can be defined as the power to fix prices, to exclude competitiors, or to control a market.
Just as people have been accusing CH of skirting the line over what is legal and what is not, I would argue that GW has done similar equivocal acts in setting internet sales prices, dictating the amount of discounting BAM stores can do, and squeezing out established BAM stores in established markets when they open new stores. How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?
Even though people have correctly pointed out that there are numerous other gaming companies and gaming systems, I would like to see a comparison of relative market share, to see just how much of the miniature/gaming market GW actually controls. My guess is that it would be substantial. Even if it is only say 40% of the world or a specific geographic region's market, if the next largest competitior is only 5%...well, that is a significant amount of difference in relative market share and power.
Anecdotally, you can just go to Ebay and look at the number of GW auctions there are compared to the number of other manufacturer's miniatures and gaming systems auctions.
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Post by: nels1031
Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?
I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.
How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?
GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole " GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.
Internet stores on the other hand... are the biggest threat to an indy shop. They cost a fraction of what a B+M store takes to start up so has a much higher and quicker return on investment than a B+M shop, costs a fraction of what a B+M store takes to maintain, has less employees to pay and insure, has little to no property tax to pay compared to an indy shop that has to pay rent or the mortgage and utilities. Because of that vast difference in overhead costs, that internt vendor can then pass on all that savings onto the customer and sell at a deeper discount then the LGS, but still make a profit. And they are always open and convenient to a customer, being that they are just a click away.
I work for a small business(not gaming related, but same issues) and I can tell you from first hand experience that internet vendors are the biggest impediment to a small, family owned business. I can offer better customer service, a friendlier atmosphere, and hands on knowledge of the products that I sell, but I cannot make a profit at the prices my online competitors are able to sell the same things for. The American consumer, despite stereotypes to the contrary, loves saving money and now even moreso since the recession, and we damn near all have internet access. Its a no-brainer that they'll prefer to shop from the convenience of their homes while saving money. Its a 1,2 punch thats knocking alot of businesses out.
I applaud GWs decision to make online vendors have a B+M base, and wish more big companies would do the same.
Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Legally CH should loose as it's bladantly using someone else's trademarks to sell stuff. However Chapterhouse doesnt seem to be making any alternative sets. If anything they're generating sales for GW as they only sell conversion sets, which prompts the average consumer to purchase the sets from GW.
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Post by: insaniak
Eldanar wrote:Just as people have been accusing CH of skirting the line over what is legal and what is not, I would argue that GW has done similar equivocal acts in setting internet sales prices, dictating the amount of discounting BAM stores can do, and squeezing out established BAM stores in established markets when they open new stores.
All of which only affect their own product range.
How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?
And in how many cases was that because they based their entire business on selling one particular company's range of product?
Specialisation has it's risks. It also sometimes has specific advantages. But the fact that some businesses choose to specialise in one company's product does not mean that company has a monopoly on the market. Automatically Appended Next Post: NELS1031 wrote: Its a no-brainer that they'll prefer to shop from the convenience of their homes while saving money. Its a 1,2 punch thats knocking alot of businesses out.
Which makes it all the more puzzling why more small businesses don't try to harness the online market.
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Post by: Polonius
I think it's hard to argue that GW can exlude competition or fix prices, when new companies appear regularly. Look at Mantic: they produce similar goods at a lower price.
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Post by: Jubear
God I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out =) Now there is an army of fanatical zealots if I ever saw one would proberly make BA look like a bunch of girly men.
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Post by: MikeMcSomething
Yeah "I don't like the other miniatures companies" is not the same thing as "GW is the only miniatures company that matters" - the fact that some guy in his basement can crank out a ruleset and sell some resin on the internet pretty effectively demonstrates GW's lack of a monopoly. Compare GW to, say, your power company, and it should put things into perspective. Now GW might ignore other competitor's contributions to the market when they decide how much they are going to sell a box for, effectively meaning the follow monopolist pricing practices, but that is not the same thing, and I think most people here that think GW has a monopoly are conflating the two concepts. GW does not lower the price of a box of Black Templar because Privateer Press made models of some armored guys with swords and guns, but that doesn't mean that PP is not also a miniatures/wargames/RPG license/etc. company.
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Post by: Eldanar
The analogy of comparing GW to a power company regarding monopolistic practices is a non-equivocation on two parts. First, the power company is probably a legal monopoly. Second, the definition of a monopoly does not necessarilly have to entail complete and utter control and domination of a particular market; it only has to entail enough economic clout to be able to set and dictate prices in a market.
Once again, I am not saying that GW is a monopoly. First off, we do not have enough information on the Miniature-Wargaming market in general to know what GW's clout is. Second, I highly doubt they are anyhow. However, GW has engaged in monopolistic practices.
Also, I am not saying that some of GW's rationales for why it enacted some of its sales rules don't have a legitimate basis. Most playeras need a BAM store in order to play and socialize, and if the internet-only operators were hurting them, then that was a problem that needed to be addressed. However, GW could have addressed it a different way than by the blanket, "Sell at the price we dictate or else." GW could have just required that every store that has an account with it maintain an actual retail location with X number of tables and X number of gaming hours available to customers.
I have been in this hobby for almost 20 years, and this is not the first time I have seen GW go after a competitor and basically crush them. I also remember the period from before GW went public; some things are better now and some things are worse.
And too, I think that CH has engaged in some dicey business practices. However, as long as they are producing items that GW does not produce, and they are clearly identifying their products as 3d party after-production original casts, I don't have a problem with it.
I merely wanted to point out that GW's collective hands are not necessarily clean in its business practices. And as much as we want to speculate on GW's motives in the suit, and what it's actual goals are, and whether it is merely trying to force a settlement, or otherwise; I have a feeling, based on GW's modus operandi and past history, that it's ultimate goal is to drive CH out of business. And that sends a chilling effect across all of the 3d party after-production market.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi Eldanar.
I agree that GW is and has never been 'whiter than white'.
However, I dont think its in GW interest to drive CH out of buisness,but just to protect its trademarks.
The 3rd party after production market will continue to thrive , as long as it plays safe with other companies trade marks...
TTFN
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Post by: kirsanth
Lokirfellheart wrote:And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.
Identical?
Umm, have you seen a Zoanthrope while you are sober?
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Post by: JSK-Fox
Again, if GW loses, they may raise prices on those kits you would need.
Think about the models.
CH doesn't send you the plastic crack you desire - GW does.
So, remember who gives you the plascrack, and who doesn't.
I'm glad if you read this.
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Post by: Kroothawk
And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!
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Post by: AndrewC
NELS1031 wrote:Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?
I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.
How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?
GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole " GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.
Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.
Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.
Cheers
Andrew
25443
Post by: JSK-Fox
Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute! 
Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.
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Post by: loki old fart
JSK-Fox wrote:Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute! 
Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.
Dream on
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Post by: Boomer
Well just in case I have just placed my first order with Chaperhouse. So this week its G.W 0 - C.H 1 as far as my pocket money is concerned!
I have ordered me 4 sets of the Ymgarl Heads as I really want to use them on my own alien race. I would suggest that anyone thinking of placing a order with them do it now. You never know wha might happen and it's better to get the stuff before its to late.
Also I just checked out the C.H terms of service, seems they are only to happy to help G.W really.
Chapterhouse Studios is a trademark of Chapterhouse Studios LLC
Chapterhouse Studios uses the following trademarked terms for descriptive purposes only in Good Faith.
Chapterhouse Studios states that our use of the trademarked terms listed below in our product descriptions constitutes fair use and nominative use and is in no way to offer confusion that Chapterhouse Studios and any of the following noted trademark holders are related companies, nor do we state that we are endorsed by these trademark holders. We are an AFTERMARKET company acting in GOOD FAITH in providing high quality products to loyal customers who have already purchased products related to these trademarks. Chapterhouse Studios is actually providing these trademark holders a venue of free advertising and indirectly provide these trademark holders with more sales leads.
Warhammer 40,000 and Space Marines is a trademark of Games Workshop LLC
Copyright © 2000-2009 Chapterhouse Studios LLC. All rights reserved.
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Post by: Neconilis
JSK-Fox wrote:Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute! 
Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.
LOL!
Seriously, why on Earth would you ever think that?
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
AndrewC wrote:NELS1031 wrote:Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?
I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.
How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?
GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole " GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.
Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.
Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.
Cheers
Andrew
Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.
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Post by: nels1031
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:AndrewC wrote:
Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.
Cheers
Andrew
Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.
I live in a place in Maryland where there were around 5 GWs within a half hour, including a bunker and Indy shops always had GW stuff in stock since I've been in the hobby. In fact, I got into the hobby from Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie back in the day and it is still there, whereas the closest GW stores are leaving because of rent costs/ HQ moving. I think you've been misinformed, AndrewC.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
I'd prefer GW comes out on top because I've never been a fan of Chapterhouse's goods, the quality just doesn't seem to be that good. That and from what I've seen the Chapterhouse people aren't the friendliest lot when it come to people criticizing their products. Also they were silly enough to blatantly name sections of their bits based off the Chapters they were created for.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Neconilis wrote:JSK-Fox wrote:Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute! 
Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.
LOL!
Seriously, why on Earth would you ever think that?
Delusion.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Boomer wrote:
Chapterhouse Studios is a trademark of Chapterhouse Studios LLC
Chapterhouse Studios uses the following trademarked terms for descriptive purposes only in Good Faith.
Chapterhouse Studios states that our use of the trademarked terms listed below in our product descriptions constitutes fair use and nominative use and is in no way to offer confusion that Chapterhouse Studios and any of the following noted trademark holders are related companies, nor do we state that we are endorsed by these trademark holders. We are an AFTERMARKET company acting in GOOD FAITH in providing high quality products to loyal customers who have already purchased products related to these trademarks. Chapterhouse Studios is actually providing these trademark holders a venue of free advertising and indirectly provide these trademark holders with more sales leads.
Warhammer 40,000 and Space Marines is a trademark of Games Workshop LLC
Copyright © 2000-2009 Chapterhouse Studios LLC. All rights reserved.
high quality products
HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS
Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Is it the sculpt or the cast you are complaining about there?
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Post by: Boomer
BrotherStynier wrote:
high quality products
HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS
Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.
Well I will be able to tell when I get my order.
I have to say placing and paying for my order was easy and straight forward. So thats a good point right there. But they said that shipping was $5 but once i had placed my order it was $6. Now I know this is not alot really because they are shipping from the US to the UK. But that information should be right. Now depending on the speed of delivery and the quality of the product will mean if i order for them again. I will post again when I get my stuff. But i do have say if i thought the product was going to be low quality then i woundnt buy it im not stupid £18 for 24 mini heads is not cheap.
Also I love games workshop I really do, but Im little shocked by the general outcry against C.H here on the this thread. I would expect this on Whineseer do not really here. It's quite hostile.
I don't have any connection to C.H but they do seem like a tiny group of people who are only trying to provide a much wanted service to a small niche hobby not a money grabbing company G.W appear to be. I remember the outcry when G.W stopped doing a bitz service. For some it ruined the hobby. For me it made converting harder. But since then there have been several cool small compaines pop up and not only too fill the gap but really provide a even better service than when G.W did it. If G.W win this then I don't what the result for C.H will be but i hope it will not kill of this kind of service becuase for some like me converting and scatch building is almost a hobby in itself. And i was stand up for the underdog so I will throw my support in C.H's direction.
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Post by: Space_Potato
In an ideal scenario, GW would win, but would not stomp CH.
Hopefully GW isn't too defensive and decise to keep CH as is, just with some renaming on some products done (as someone mentioned earlier "28mm power armour shoulder pads")
Hell, GW could even attempt to buy into CH. Have them as a seperate company, but in a way that they are working with them. So GW want some new heads and/or shoulder pads to coincide with say, the new WHFB Orcs release. Instead of focussing on the little parts, they can ask CH to churn out a few, whilst they get on with the boxed sets and whatever.
Long story short, I'm voting GW, but hoping that they ease off on CH.
S_P
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Post by: Ultrasmurf_no_REALY
well this one looks like it is sorted people whant chapterhouse because it is the bigger company and can defend itself  what if they could all get along and work for the greater good of 40K
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Post by: Kroothawk
BrotherStynier wrote:Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.
I am not laughing, I just made another order, and not to save money, but for the quality.
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Post by: Sile
I want GW to win.
Why? Pretty simple, it may act as a case which opens the door for other more unscrupulous instances where cheap counterfiet knockoffs and improper use of tradmarks, along with breaches of copyright may utilize to become more commonplace.
It's really in my opinion a bit like the little boy with his finger in the dam.
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Post by: shrike
Well, I've never gotten anything from CH, but I fail to see how CH broke the law. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know the terms & conditions, but why CH? There are a lot of other companies to sue. They give them different names and say "they look good on GW's X models". They're not taking credit for GW's stuff or making copies or anything.
I'm gonna get CH's heresy-era JP's, so I hope they don't close.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.
13518
Post by: Scott-S6
Mr Mystery wrote:Is it the sculpt or the cast you are complaining about there?
I don't like their sculpts but I haven't seen any complaining that the quality isn't there.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
I've seen plenty of people complaining about the quality of FW models.
Anyone used to resin casting knows that resin models are prone to a number of faults that are not found in an injection kit of standard quality.
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Post by: Holdenstein
NELS1031 wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:AndrewC wrote:
Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.
Cheers
Andrew
Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.
I live in a place in Maryland where there were around 5 GWs within a half hour, including a bunker and Indy shops always had GW stuff in stock since I've been in the hobby. In fact, I got into the hobby from Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie back in the day and it is still there, whereas the closest GW stores are leaving because of rent costs/ HQ moving. I think you've been misinformed, AndrewC.
QFT. Wargames Emporium in Sheffield is just 10 minutes walk away from the nearest GW, has a permanent 10% discount on the GW stuff and has been around for 15 years.
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Post by: plastictrees
Kilkrazy wrote:I've seen plenty of people complaining about the quality of FW models.
Anyone used to resin casting knows that resin models are prone to a number of faults that are not found in an injection kit of standard quality.
I don't know anyone that's complained about the quality of the sculpting on FW models, regardless of casting issues and mold wear. The casting process would have to somehow improve the sculpt of CH models for me to consider them in the same ballpark.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Kilkrazy wrote:I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.
Then we can compare our results: Also ordered a conversion, just to add variety to my two Russian ones ( CH's will become the HQ Tervigon).
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
voted GW.
IMO, Chapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.
Panic.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Kroothawk wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.
Then we can compare our results: Also ordered a conversion, just to add variety to my two Russian ones ( CH's will become the HQ Tervigon).
Since there seems to be a lot of interest in this I'll post the condition of my Ymargl heads when I get them, which should be any day now since I got the email that they shipped some time around Tuesday.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
I always wonder if the people who say our stuff is crap have ever actually seen it in person. Or are they just jumping on the bandwagon and repeating what they here.
My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.
Granted the pictures on our site need to be better to showcase our products.
3
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Holdenstein wrote:NELS1031 wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:AndrewC wrote:
Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.
Cheers
Andrew
Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.
I live in a place in Maryland where there were around 5 GWs within a half hour, including a bunker and Indy shops always had GW stuff in stock since I've been in the hobby. In fact, I got into the hobby from Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie back in the day and it is still there, whereas the closest GW stores are leaving because of rent costs/ HQ moving. I think you've been misinformed, AndrewC.
QFT. Wargames Emporium in Sheffield is just 10 minutes walk away from the nearest GW, has a permanent 10% discount on the GW stuff and has been around for 15 years.
Just to re-emphasise, Gamer's World in Dublin is literally just round the corner from GW Liffey Street, Ireland's main GW store.
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Post by: FITZZ
I had intended to write an eloquently worded post as to why I was in hopes of an CH victory...but I thought to myself.."Why be a hypocrite".
Honestly...I want to see GW take a shot in the pills.
The "IP" that GW so viciously protects,in many cases,is simply someone else's "IP" that GW has slightly altered and slapped their "trademark"on...so yes,I do hope CH wins.
38076
Post by: Skartooth
Cant GW just buy out Chapter House studios and sell the awesome shoulder pads and stuff for themselves?
37318
Post by: CasaHouse
I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:
Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink
Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.
Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540
So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.
I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
CasaHouse wrote:I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:
Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink
Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.
Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540
So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.
I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.
First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....
I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.
Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.
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Post by: Platuan4th
CasaHouse wrote: Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for. May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means.
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Post by: Theophony
I hope GW wins. Though I like some of the stuff made by ChapterHouse and own one of the Tau Titans that I got from them, I have always felt they treaded too close to GW products and goods. If they wanted to prove that they weren't stealing from GW, maybe they could come up with some of their own range of models, rules and the like that the pads fit on.
I got into and still play a GW game system because of the style, look, and playability of their games. CH is trying to steal the style and look without putting in the effort of developing their own "brand".
I am all for the little guy trying to make a living, and I don't really see how CH is bitting too deep into GWs pockets, but lets get serious.
Lastly I'd like to see the Judge tell GW that they should protect their IP better by not putting out ugly models  I'm looking at you stormraven.
13984
Post by: Captain Jack
Skartooth wrote:Cant GW just buy out Chapter House studios and sell the awesome shoulder pads and stuff for themselves?
Because the sculpter is using his elbows instead of his hands to hold his sculpting tools with. I hate to say it, but if GW goes down (ie the market gets flooded with cheep garbage or whatever) then the main feeder into wargames goes with it. Taking along with all the people who could get bored of 40k or just try other stuff. It means an end to all of the great inovation (malifaux, infinity etc) that is going on off the back of the money coming into wargaming. Does anyone remember going into a club more than 10 years ago, and thinking 'where are my peers'?
Of course CHS isn't going to acomplish this on its own, but if it sets a precident for poor knockoffs then where do we stand? Yes that is a bit of a moral rather than legal rant, but until the courts decide we're stuck looking into the void. If it happens to GW, then it will happen to PP because IP and Copyright are either going to be worthless or the legal side of keeping oiks off IP is gonna cost a rediculous amount. Scaremongering on - Which company is it going to be next, eh?
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Post by: CasaHouse
Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....
I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.
Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.
That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.
And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.
I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.
-Casa
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Post by: Chapterhouse
CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....
I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.
Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.
That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.
And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.
I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.
-Casa
If this is true (you saying your not trolling) then I do appologize. I dont think you can blame my reaction if you have read any of the "trolling" post on frothers.
I am referring to GWs known record of sending out tons of C&Ds to anyone and everyone, I think that is pretty much public knowledge, not referring to any actions they have had with my company.
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Post by: Captain Jack
He he he, he said Stormravennnn
Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch,
Chapterhousestudios
Reply with quote
Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.
So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW?
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Post by: Platuan4th
Captain Jack wrote:He he he, he said Stormravennnn Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch, Chapterhousestudios Reply with quote Woody wrote: Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW? Platuan4th wrote:CasaHouse wrote: Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for. May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means. Since CHS doesn't directly copy(ie. reproduce) anything GW actually makes themselves, the bold refers to you, too. Also why repost this after someone posted it not even 10 posts ago?
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Post by: Captain Jack
Ummm, because I was composing while others were posting, have a look at where my post starts. Look, CHS is acting strange (I'll keep it clean) in the fact that it is ok to sell stuff clearly based on someone elses ideas, but doesn't like his nose tweaked when it is pointed out. Have a look at other threads, on other forums, this is not just a problem here ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5209543&postcount=42 ) . As I stated before, until there is a ruling we don't know what the fallout of this is. Stuff the dictionary, because there is a language and law gap between countries, which is why these threads go so long. What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?
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Post by: Platuan4th
Captain Jack wrote:What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?
Probably the same as it does today. See China and Mexico and the KO toys they make and sell across the globe. See the internet and the rampant piracy that exists on it as we speak. It's far from the "end of the world" scenario you're painting it to be.
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Post by: Captain Jack
And that make it right how?
33151
Post by: Ultrasmurf_no_REALY
yah im changing my mind because chapterhouse is so brazenly going on about c&d forms ONLINE whilst still selling GW related stuff its not right :(
1963
Post by: Aduro
There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.
13984
Post by: Captain Jack
Aduro wrote:There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.
The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.
The wheel on this thread turns again
13341
Post by: Shepherd23
CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....
I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.
Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.
That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.
And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.
I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.
-Casa
I do not see your logic that a company who produces something that no one else does is going to set precedent that will cause the downfall of an industry. If in fact CH wins this lawsuit then the only precedent that will be set is that companies can continue to create products that are not being produced by other companies. Your statement is nothing but doomsday grandstanding and is completely illogical and truly not appreciated as all it actually accomplishes is adding fuel to a fire that should never have even been lit in the first place.
The whole argument of IP infringement in this case is foolish. CH produces a product that is able to be used to make a GW product more individualized. Said product is not able to be used by itself. It requires the purchase of a GW product to be used in the first place. GW is NOT producing anything close to the desired range of product that they strive to invent with all of their fluff. The existence of CH and others like them are due to this fact. GW creates a demand and then refuses to meet said demand. The reason for GW's lack of support does not matter.
CH and several others have done items that I feel are the reason for their troubles. CH created a mycetic spore. This is not an item that is intended to modify, but to replace an item that GW does not currently, but may produce. This is ,as I see it, the only actual product that is an issue. Every other item, including the walker tank that looks Tau-like, is not a challenge to GW's bottom line.
I believe that CH and all the other 3rd party companies have a place in the hobby. I feel that the community is a richer one with these companies and the items that they produce. I feel that they need to understand the limits of what they are able to produce so as not to challenge the companies that they rely on to exist on the first place.
So my vote is that I hope CH wins with conditions. This will set the precedent that everyone is seeking and it wont kill a company in the process. I think that this could be accomplished if GW is willing to deal and CH is willing to limit its stock.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse? If you want Chapterhouse to lose and go out of business, does that mean you want all these other companies to die as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Captain Jack wrote:
The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.
The wheel on this thread turns again
Seriously? Have you not Looked at Maxmini's shop? These first two pictures I just posted are from their store. You can't honestly tell me those are not copied from GW's IP can you?
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Post by: Captain Jack
This makes for interesting reading, if you're bothered. Yoinked from another forum http://www.starshipmodeler.com/faq_view.cfm?ID_Num=39
Interesting, I'm getting there with all the different views and opinions, even if I don't agree.
Edit:
To the above, yes. However you are missing the point in that they are generic in their shape and naming. Yes AoW is sailing close to the wind with the Daemon, but it's not called a Bloodletter is it? Fantasy is fantasy, Gamezone also do generic fantasy minis that are not apeing GW IP and a Chaos Rider is a generic term. Salamander Space marine is very specific. The Scibor stuff is also not a direct copy of artwork , the syle is similar but no back pack and the details are sufficiently different.
There wouldn't have been all this fuss if CHS had gone the same way. Again, I hope that this case gets sorted in court sooner rather than later, whichever way it goes.
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Post by: filbert
How are those anything other than generic? GW doesn't have a claim to 'owning' dwarves or centaurs any less than Tolkein...
35350
Post by: BuFFo
I voted CH loud and proud.
Why?
I don't see them doing anything illegal. They may have done some stupid things, but nothing illegal.
I am not familiar with the law pertaining to the matter at hand here, so this is just my opinion.
10402
Post by: Thorgut
Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?
These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Panic wrote:yeah,
voted GW.
IMO, Crapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.
Panic.
Chapterhouse wrote:My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.
Guess, panic was blinded by the awesomeness of these high quality GW sculpts:
1963
Post by: Aduro
I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thorgut wrote:Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?
These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.
So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
I want to hurt whoever sculpted the minotaurs. So stupid...
And the 'Eavy Metal team can't even fill in the gaps in the arms on those Catachan models, lol...they fit that poorly.
10402
Post by: Thorgut
Aduro wrote:So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.
Considering that was my first post on the subject, I'm surprised you stated "like [you] said".
No, I don't require a company to lie. Companies like Max Mini, for instance, don't explicitly state that their parts aren't made for GW models.
However, they don't throw GW trademarks all over their site and there's absolutely no chance people will mistake them for official GW merchandise. If they called what are clearly Ork heads "Freeboota 40K Ork heads", then there might be an issue.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".
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Post by: Asherian Command
Sorry but some people really don't know that Chapterhouse might of not intended for it to look like that. Sometimes modelling accidents happen. But in all seriousness, the creator of Starship Troopers should be sueing GW for taking their style for the Cadians as they look very similar. That is what GW is claimed.
It looks too similar to what Chapter House is making, and GW thinks they own this style for the tau. GW may say they can copyright a style. But that also means that GW would be shooting itself in the foot, as other major companies could make a lawsuit upon GW for the styles it has taken.
I am proud that I voted for Chapterhouse, because GW and Forgeworld make too much money already and they keep jacking up the prices, and also the fact that they don't have all the things the customers want. Next GW will be targeting Paper made models and sueing other small companies.
32644
Post by: Mr Mystery
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".
Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.
And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.
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Post by: Lanrak
Hi all.
People can make suplimentary products to be used with other companies products.
AND they CAN use trademarks to show intended use.
EG
Chapterhouse Studio shoulder pads are designed to fit on 28mm infantry in power armour.
Including Games Workshops Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space Marine(tm) minatures.
This is a CLEAR case of using a trademark,( atrubted to its owner ), to show intended use.
But calling the product
40k (tm)Space Marine(tm) shoulder pads .
Could be seen as using another companies trademarks to advertise/market them.
I also hope this can be resolved out of court , and allow CHS to continue to trade.
TTFN
1963
Post by: Aduro
I checked the mail and those aforementioned Ymargl heads I ordered came in today. They showed up in a little plastic baggie inside a bubble wrap envelope. There's some flash and mold lines, but nothing particularly terrible or more than what I find on my GW or PP figs, and no divots mismolded areas. Couple dry fits on a genestealer body and they match up perfectly. Can't speak to their resin stuff, but the quality of their pewter is just as good as anything else I've gotten.
Group shot of all 12 heads, followed by an unflattering shot of the two I singled out for having the worst flash.
2
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Aduro wrote:I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!
Was intentional, as I only included the newest models of units in current army books (although I DID search for the last metal Possessed), didn't want to be unfair and include old stuff.
21940
Post by: nels1031
Kroothawk wrote:Aduro wrote:I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!
Was intentional, as I only included the newest models of units in current army books (although I DID search for the last metal Possessed), didn't want to be unfair and include old stuff.
Not to be inflammatory or continue the off topic stuff, but how about comparing like products to like products? Take for instance, the pic that the Chapterhouse guy posted a page or two back and compare their Salamander shoulder pads to the FW ones. Can you not see a vast difference in scuplting ability? Line up most of chapterhouses stuff against what GW already makes and its the same story.
With that said, I honestly think that Chapterhouse makes some honestly nice looking stuff, but they, in my opinion, have more misses then hits.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Chapterhouse wrote:I always wonder if the people who say our stuff is crap have ever actually seen it in person. Or are they just jumping on the bandwagon and repeating what they here.
My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.
What bandwagon? What are you talking about? I'm basing my opinion on the pictures of soft edged plasticine that most of your product seems to be sculpted out of. Do you want me to buy some of your product so I can legitimately decide if it's amateur hour?
Maybe the judges at BOLScon decided it was nice conversion work done by an enthusiastic hobbyist. That's not the same as professional quality sculpting.
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Post by: nels1031
What bandwagon? What are you talking about?
I thought the same thing myself. The poll is 60-40 in his favor, if anything the bandwagon is in chapterhouses favor.
Weird statement.
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Post by: Chapterhouse
Your free to say what you want, I just wish more people based opinions off of actually seeing the products in person, not off of a photo of a 4-5 mm product.
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Post by: nels1031
Chapterhouse wrote:Your free to say what you want, I just wish more people based opinions off of actually seeing the products in person, not off of a photo of a 4-5 mm product.
I have seen some of your product in person(even purchased some) and stand by my statements, the good and bad ones. Nothing wrong with being in the minor leagues if it puts food on the table.
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Post by: Happygrunt
I would like to say that a CH salamander army is one of the best looking things I have seen. The stuff I have seen has been top notch, however I have not actually purchased any of their product.
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Post by: loki old fart
Mr Mystery wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".
Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.
And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.
Except when people go into the shop and ask for a HOOVER with one of those vortex things
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Post by: Eldanar
Aduro:
I'm curious as to who made that Doom...er...whatever it is?
That is the one thing I have gleaned from all of these posts, is the existence of some really good 3d party manufacturers whom I did not know exhisted previously.
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Post by: WillyBRags
I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00
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Post by: Aduro
I'm sure you contacted Nick about the problems right? And do you have pictures of these?
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Post by: WillyBRags
I wish I had a camera...I might go borrow a friends and take some pics and post them, I think my local hobby shop has a camera...I'll try and get them posted tomorrow, in the process of moving as well..so it's a bit hectic...but I will do my best to get them taken and posted tomorrow
And I did send in a message to CH just a few minutes ago about recieving the wrong parts and the flaws, my friend told me not to worry about it, but hell you might as well get what you origionally wanted
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Mr Mystery wrote:MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".
Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.
And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.
Thing is, chapter upgrades and the like tend to need to mention the actual trademark for them to tell you what they're intended for, or we just get more "drop with cog/sawblade" descriptions, or "Fire breathing Dragon shoulderpads for Space Paladins". GW also holds ALOT of trademarks, moreso than most other companies, so alot of tank ugprades will also have to change their names around alot. I say if they're not actually saying " GW related PRODUCTS SOLD HERE" then they should win (even if legally they'll loose due to violating something else).
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Post by: Old Man Yarrik
GW: because it is basic leaching off another companys product to sell your own.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Eldanar wrote:I'm curious as to who made that Doom...er...whatever it is?
The Alien Larva Brain is done by Trollforged: http://trollforged.com/shelf_sci-fi_Aliens.html
It is an updated version of the following Trollforged Alien Brains:
And here is what I made from CH bitz and a 2nd edition Hive Tyrant, my new Alpha Warrior (left):
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Post by: Chapterhouse
WillyBRags wrote:I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00
Aduro wrote: I'm sure you contacted Nick about the problems right? And do you have pictures of these?
WillyBRags wrote:I wish I had a camera...I might go borrow a friends and take some pics and post them, I think my local hobby shop has a camera...I'll try and get them posted tomorrow, in the process of moving as well..so it's a bit hectic...but I will do my best to get them taken and posted tomorrow
And I did send in a message to CH just a few minutes ago about recieving the wrong parts and the flaws, my friend told me not to worry about it, but hell you might as well get what you origionally wanted
Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.
I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.
So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.
For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).
I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.
His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.
"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"
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Post by: nkelsch
Chapterhouse wrote:His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.
"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"
What what I see you post on these forums, your customer service *DOES* suck. You are highly defensive and attack anyone who doesn't praise your product blindly. It is not unreasonable for people to expect the right product and for resin parts to be inspected and free of serious flaws or even minor ones. Your constant attacks on customers is poor customer service in my opinion.
You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)
I hear way to many excuses from small business companies as if consumers shouldn't expect a well-handled, timely and accurate transaction because of 'whatever' reason. Other small companies do it and I will judge all companies accordingly.
Blasting his email complaint to your company on the Internetz is *NOT PROFESSIONAL*. Apologizing and taking care of his needs without the need to attack him, smear him or bully him in a public forum *IS* professional. If you handled his needs in a professional way I suspect he would post a positive experience on the forums and you would look all the better for it. Guess what? Consumers can do just about anything they want to your company and complain about it and you pretty much have to suck it up and let your excellent product and service speak for itself.
(I do like the veiled threats that you will now treat him poorly as a customer because he dare complain about your service and product. Very nice touch.)
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Post by: Chapterhouse
nkelsch wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.
"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"
What what I see you post on these forums, your customer service *DOES* suck. You are highly defensive and attack anyone who doesn't praise your product blindly. It is not unreasonable for people to expect the right product and for resin parts to be inspected and free of serious flaws or even minor ones. Your constant attacks on customers is poor customer service in my opinion.
You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)
I hear way to many excuses from small business companies as if consumers shouldn't expect a well-handled, timely and accurate transaction because of 'whatever' reason. Other small companies do it and I will judge all companies accordingly.
Blasting his email complaint to your company on the Internetz is *NOT PROFESSIONAL*. Apologizing and taking care of his needs without the need to attack him, smear him or bully him in a public forum *IS* professional. If you handled his needs in a professional way I suspect he would post a positive experience on the forums and you would look all the better for it. Guess what? Consumers can do just about anything they want to your company and complain about it and you pretty much have to suck it up and let your excellent product and service speak for itself.
(I do like the veiled threats that you will now treat him poorly as a customer because he dare complain about your service and product. Very nice touch.)
I think there are many customers who have ordered from us, have had problems with products and see we are more then happy to do what we can to fix those problems.
Contrary to what some people believe, just being a paying customer does not give you a blatant right to try to make that company look bad if you have a problem with a product, especially when you have not done anythign to reach out to the company and see if they will help. Am I defensive by caring what is posted about me and my company to our customer base, especially when there is no recourse for my company, yes I am.
Call that a false sense of entitlement, or whatever.
I have no issue at all when a customer contacts me and says there is something wrong with a order, I try my best to work with them. I have had some customers email with concern on resin that is as simple and dipping it in water to get the shape back. Not everyone knows about resin or its properties.
You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)
Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
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Post by: johnstewartjohn
I’ve had several orders from chapter house, one of which was lost in the post by royal mail. I exchanged several emails with nick and found his responses prompt and polite.
However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?
Edit (Sorry just to clarify. I meant that you don’t go out of your way for rude customer’s, rather than be rude to them).
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Post by: nkelsch
Chapterhouse wrote:Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.
I can't tell what he ordered because I don't have his PO? really? You do so much volume you can't do minimal effort to try to match his email to an order or match his product description to an order? Posting his communications online? This reeks of petty and personal behavior by an unprofessional company. Come on dude...
Your reaction to his issue and the way you degraded him as a customer continues to speak about your attitude and how your company operates. You would look better with a simple: PM SENT and actually trying to resolve his issue and not waging a public war against him. If you reasonably address his issues I bet he would inform everyone.
However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?
Actually yes I can and do expect him to be polite. That is called customer service. Sometimes it ain't fair but at least if you were professional and reasonable with an unreasonable customer you will be respected by consumers for it. That's the point, keep it professional and not personal like the person posting with the Chapterhouse account basically makes it. He takes everything personally and it reflects poorly on his company.
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Post by: TheFirstBorn
^ QFT.
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Post by: plastictrees
Chapterhouse wrote:
Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
Fair? What does being "fair" have to do with anything? You're supposed to be running a business. Either you deal with customer complaints as they come up and however they come up, or you don't. The fact that you describe this complaint as ranting and raving, when it was a pretty innocuous description of what happened that likely would have been barely noticed if you were capable of dealing with things in a professional and private manner speaks volumes.
Even given the opportunity to deal with this customers complaints privately through e-mail you chose to whine about the way he chose to seek restitution, implying that he was a liar and that you may not make any effort to help him now.
What are you even doing? You already seem to, inexplicably, have a significant chunk of on-line support for your "cause". Are you hoping to rally more people to your corner by telling everyone how poorly some random customers are treating you?
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Post by: Chapterhouse
nkelsch wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.
I can't tell what he ordered because I don't have his PO? really? You do so much volume you can't do minimal effort to try to match his email to an order or match his product description to an order? Posting his communications online? This reeks of petty and personal behavior by an unprofessional company. Come on dude...
Your reaction to his issue and the way you degraded him as a customer continues to speak about your attitude and how your company operates. You would look better with a simple: PM SENT and actually trying to resolve his issue and not waging a public war against him. If you reasonably address his issues I bet he would inform everyone.
However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?
Actually yes I can and do expect him to be polite. That is called customer service. Sometimes it ain't fair but at least if you were professional and reasonable with an unreasonable customer you will be respected by consumers for it. That's the point, keep it professional and not personal like the person posting with the Chapterhouse account basically makes it. He takes everything personally and it reflects poorly on his company.
I get accused of arrogance at times, but your telling me how my business is ran and how many customers I have?
His email stated that he had an order with a friend, so he didnt place the order...
His email address is not in our system.
We sell many rhino kits a week.
The only clue I have is his orders in Canada..
Part of the benefit (or disadvantage) of owning a small business is not being a faceless entity and actually being able to be part of the community. That means if you piss on me or my business, especially on a public forum, I can react how I wish. That does not mean you will not get good customer service from me, but I wont be happy about how you communicate and be all happy and honky dory.
I welcome new customers and business, I had a nice conversation on the phone with a customer friday about some concerns on a single bubble he had on a resin cast. Speaking with him, I told him its his call, I will be happy to send him a new part, but if he thinks he can work with the bubble (it was in the model, not on the surface) go for it. Either way I will do my best to help him.
Being a business means that you have to deal with all types, even types who are not easy to please. Sometimes you strike out with them even when you try. You end up with anger on both sides sometimes, its part of business and all you can do is try your best with each customer, treat them how you would want to be treated and move on.
I would never expect to be able to make a company look bad in a public forum about an issue, before even trying to contact them, and then expect the small business owner to act like nothings wrong. That is from my upbrining, I dont have a false sense of entitlement and take responsibilities for my actions (even if that is the fact that some folks done agree with me and take business elsewhere).
For the record, I never said I would not try to help the customer and his issue. I did state I was not happy with his posting his issue before we even had the chance to fix it. I am still waiting for his email to send me some more details about the issue.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
This is unacceptable behaviour imho.
Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.
If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.
It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.
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Post by: TheFirstBorn
Both are in the wrong to be fair. I agree with the above statement that it should be taken up with the supplier first, but I also agree fully that its out of order to get pissed off with a customer. If I did that at work, A. I wouldn't expect to see that person ever again, or indeed anyone they knew, and B. I'd get my ass fired. I know this is different, but its still unproffesional as stated. I understand your frustration, I learly flipped out today at a guy, who attempted to get money taken off his function, saying everything was rubbish and poor quality, despite everyone saying how lovely everything was, but I would never personally attack him for it.
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Post by: CasaHouse
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:This is unacceptable behaviour imho.
Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.
If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.
It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.
I was trying to stay out of this, because my first foray into the thread was met with hostility.
But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.
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Post by: plastictrees
Sorry, how did he make you "look bad" other than by literally describing what happened to him?
Either you sent him the wrong, poorly cast item or he's a liar.
If it's the former I don't see how you having the potential to _make up_ for the issue changes the fact that it happened. If it's the latter, he's just a liar and the best way to find that out is to communicate with him.
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Post by: Chapterhouse
TheFirstBorn wrote:Both are in the wrong to be fair. I agree with the above statement that it should be taken up with the supplier first, but I also agree fully that its out of order to get pissed off with a customer. If I did that at work, A. I wouldn't expect to see that person ever again, or indeed anyone they knew, and B. I'd get my ass fired. I know this is different, but its still unproffesional as stated. I understand your frustration, I learly flipped out today at a guy, who attempted to get money taken off his function, saying everything was rubbish and poor quality, despite everyone saying how lovely everything was, but I would never personally attack him for it.
Is this really a personal attack? Reading it the third time around I dont see anything personal in it..
Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.
I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.
So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.
For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).
I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.
His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.
"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"
I think it was rather even-handed.
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Post by: wolfshadow
1 Major maxmini order placed and prduct recieved.
3 different styles of shoulderpads.
No flash on anything. Very crisp casts, with fine detail... Oddly enough better than the equivilent GW pads in some cases.
I like their product.
TBH, I think they shouold have been a bit more careful in how they marketed the product.
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Post by: Ketara
Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.
This is true. But to be perfectly frank, imagine this scenario. I buy a Tactical Marine box from GW. I get home, open up the box, and see a malformed devastator sprue instead. What is the logical thing thing then to do? Call/Email GW and get it fixed, obviously.
However, in this case, the customer decided on a different methodology. He decided first to go online into an already highly volatile thread about the company in question, and complain that he got the wrong order, and that the order was badly done anyway. When asked if he had actually mentioned it to the company in question, to try and get the desirable solution, his response is basically, '...uhhh, I did a few minutes ago'.
Not the brightest thing to do in the best of circumstances. If I came on here having pulled out the deformed devastator sprue, and complained that GW was of poor quality, and then revealed that I hadn't even tried to get my original order, people would be mildly incredulous, and with good reason. 'But why didn't you just talk to the company first? Regardless of whether you hate GW or not, accidents do happen in shipping', they would say. And they'd be right. The mark of a good company is generally how willing it is to deal with complaints.
Chapterhouse, which is currently under a lot of fire, for several reasons, sees itself under attack in an already volatile thread for not resolving a problem it didn't even know existed. Chapterhouse is already a bit hot under the collar, and probably needs to take a step back, and chill. His response was slightly out of whack with the wording. But that's part of the deal with small companies. They tend to be one or two person run, which removes them from the more polished global corporate image. When people are talking about the company they worked hard to build up, they respond personally. That can be slightly bad for image, as can be seen by a slightly unprofessional response here. It wasn't that bad, nkelsch, you're exaggerating here, but it was a spot unprofessional.
However, the flip side is the dozens of times I've seen people mentioning order cockups before in other threads where Chapterhouse has immediately gone, 'Oops. My bad. Terribly sorry, I'll correct that'. Often free of charge.
When you say, 'You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service', I think, uhh, why yes, they do. Everyone has the right to respond when they're in the court of public opinion. The poster with the customer service problem, had no problem. Chapterhouse responded in a minimally unprofessionally way, but with cause, considering they're already under fire in this thread. You then weigh in with some incredibly inflammatory comments, and then tell him he's not allowed to defend himself?
Whilst corporate entities might not respond to you baiting them, its because they're not personally involved, and honestly don't care what you have to say.
I like the fact Chapterhouse posts here. It gives it a personal touch. If that means he acts slightly unprofessional at times, so be it. It shows the fact there's a human on the other end that I can talk to, and work out my problems with as and when necessary, as opposed to a faceless corporate entity. I think you'd find he responded a lot more professionally though, if you'd cease baiting him, and then accusing him of being unprofessional at getting hot under the collar at what are thinly veiled insults at his ability to run a business.
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Post by: Chapterhouse
CasaHouse wrote:Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:This is unacceptable behaviour imho.
Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.
If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.
It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.
I was trying to stay out of this, because my first foray into the thread was met with hostility.
But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.
LOL way to stay out of it..
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.
Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).
Thanks Ketara for that, I think you put it in more elegant words then I could. I think you hit allot of that spot on.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Well said Ketara!
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Post by: johnstewartjohn
I have found its kind of one of the perks of owning your own business. that when some ones rude to you, You can choose not to do business with them again. You don’t need that kind of stress .
1963
Post by: Aduro
CasaHouse wrote:
But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.
Because he's human and humans do make the occasional mistake? Or are you a stunning example of flawless perfect that never ever makes even a single mistake? If you're not, I don't know why you expect him to be. The mark of a business with excellent customer service is not one that never makes a mistake, because every business does. It's how the deal with and correct that mistake. If you're not going to give them a chance to fix an error, you can't complain that they never fix errors and have horrible customer service, like this guy was.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
johnstewartjohn wrote:I have found its kind of one of the perks of owning your own business. that when some ones rude to you, You can choose not to do business with them again. You don’t need that kind of stress .
Ive never done that, but Ive come close to doing it a couple of times  .
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Some people are so stupid. You can't go around insulting people even on the internet. Because people are always watching. So if you bluntly insult a company, you really think they are going to help you? If you are a bastard to a GW customer service guy you really think he is not going to tell you shut up and hang up the phone on you? It is bluntly Stupid that you as the buyer get all the rights to attack a company just because of an order. But All privacy for the issues should be sent through an email, not a live online forum that just about anyone can read. CH you people are good, Guy who is complaining please stop thinking just because you are the customer means you are entitled to everything, it is stupid to believe that, the Company hand made them and is not some damn corporation that has a Corrupt CEO. Please reedit your posts as they are bluntly insulting to a Dakka Dakka User and I suggest you read the terms of use of Dakka Dakka before you recomment and quote me as you have not read them at all. You May Not insult anyone and accuse anyone of anything on a Private Forum. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk, but if you continually insult other users you deserved to be banned from Dakka Dakka. His posts might of been unprofessional, but the fact still remains he can still defend himself. The Internet can be used as evidence against you, every post is recorded automatically by the mods and all of the Admins. He is a human being and you are treating him like a separate entity. Please for the love of all that is holy be more considerate in your posts, as Chapter House Studios is already attacked by a major Corporation. End.
37318
Post by: CasaHouse
Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.
Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).
Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.
Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.
Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.
Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.
-Casa
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.
Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).
Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.
Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.
Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.
Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.
-Casa
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
3720
Post by: brettz123
Chapterhouse wrote:
I think there are many customers who have ordered from us, have had problems with products and see we are more then happy to do what we can to fix those problems.
Contrary to what some people believe, just being a paying customer does not give you a blatant right to try to make that company look bad if you have a problem with a product, especially when you have not done anythign to reach out to the company and see if they will help. Am I defensive by caring what is posted about me and my company to our customer base, especially when there is no recourse for my company, yes I am.
Call that a false sense of entitlement, or whatever.
Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
And it isn't too much to ask to actually get what you paid for either is it? When I buy something from a company I expect the items I ordered in 100% pristine condition. What I don't expect is a bunch of lip from the company about my complaint no matter what venue I air that complaint. How about you fix the problem like a professional and not go off on someone about a problem they complain about. They gave you money for an item and any problem with that item is 100% your fault. That is period the end.
Your lack of professionalism is rather shocking. Would it have been beneath you to simply say something along the following lines"
"I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your order. If you can provide me with the order number I can find out what the issue was and send you replacement pieces. Again I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you and I will do my best to ensure that this problem is fixed. Thank you for your business and your patience."
I mean why would you say anything other than something along those lines? It makes you look childish and bitter so why do you constantly insist on taking the low road when it comes to any criticism you get on forums? The bottom line is it costs you business.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.
Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.
Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".
CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.
1963
Post by: Aduro
I actually thought the customer looked far more childish and bitter myself.
3720
Post by: brettz123
Chapterhouse wrote:
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
Ok seriously?!?!?!?!??! Yeah blame the infamous "clicked on the wrong item" event as your out in this..... now thats shockingly professional. I mean really do you try and make it easy for people to root against you?
37318
Post by: CasaHouse
Oh, I wasn't really taking a shot at you, ChapterHouse. I was more irritated with the attitude that it's bad form to expect a company to get it right the first time, and to include it in your feedback when they don't. That's not how business works. I apologize if it seemed that that was directed at you. It was more a conflict of rhetoric between unrelated parties.
1963
Post by: Aduro
plastictrees wrote:Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.
Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.
Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".
CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.
How about because he said Chapterhouse has terrible customer service and wouldn't replace products when he never actually gave them a chance to do it?
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Chapterhouse wrote:CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.
Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).
Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.
Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.
Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.
Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.
-Casa
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Because if you read Brettz comment, it apparently still wasn't good enough?
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
plastictrees wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote: LOL way to stay out of it.. Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake. Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part). Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day. Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one. Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk. Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps. -Casa Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post). What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.
He did. You might of just ignored it, happens sometimes on a thread, people ignore other posters.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
plastictrees wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:CasaHouse wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.
Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).
Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.
Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.
Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.
Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.
-Casa
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.
Didnt I?
Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.
I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.
So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.
For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).
I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.
His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.
"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"
14991
Post by: Boomer
Chapterhouse wrote:
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits [/quote=Chapterhouse]
Oh i do hope thats my order you was packing, im frinking dying to try out the alien heads, they look great and i placed my order on friday!! One question do you think they will fit on bloodletter bodies?
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Aduro wrote:plastictrees wrote:Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.
Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.
Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".
CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.
How about because he said Chapterhouse has terrible customer service and wouldn't replace products when he never actually gave them a chance to do it?
Wow, what are you talking about?
WillyBRags wrote:I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00
Honestly, the "Customer clicked the wrong button" dodge is lame, but after establishing a threshold of "He's a liar and we probably won't help him" it looks like good customer service.
430
Post by: wolfshadow
brettz123 wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
Ok seriously?!?!?!?!??! Yeah blame the infamous "clicked on the wrong item" event as your out in this..... now thats shockingly professional. I mean really do you try and make it easy for people to root against you?
The thing is here, we don't know.
The customer hasnt even provided Nick with the Order # so he can find out........
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
Yeah but who cares, Im already guilty in a couple of posters eyes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boomer wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits [/quote=Chapterhouse]
Oh i do hope thats my order you was packing, im frinking dying to try out the alien heads, they look great and i placed my order on friday!! One question do you think they will fit on bloodletter bodies?
No idea, whats your PO#
Where they the Xeno or Ymgr heads?
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Chapterhouse wrote:
Didnt I?
/boggles
Umm, no, you didn't. Astonishingly, I wasn't referring to the "it might be the customers fault" line as indicative of how to handle customers.
10470
Post by: shrike
Yep. By now nothing will convince some of them.
3/4 of dakka thinks you should win. Take the hint.
17645
Post by: TheFirstBorn
3/5 actually.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Most of the people daring to question CH are doing so because of the way he handles himself. This isn't about an error on an order, those happen (or didn't happen), this is about the way he's dealing with it.
It doesn't seem to matter though, apparently most of Dakka is eating up the "straight shooting small business man just trying to make an honest buck and speak his mind" routine.
14991
Post by: Boomer
Chapterhouse wrote:Yeah but who cares, Im already guilty in a couple of posters eyes.
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits
Oh i do hope thats my order you was packing, im frinking dying to try out the alien heads, they look great and i placed my order on friday!! One question do you think they will fit on bloodletter bodies?
No idea, whats your PO#
Don't worry I was kinda joking i know you guys only post once a week so im not evening expecting it to be posted till next friday and then its coming to merry england.
But in hopes of derails this thread of 'attack Chapterhouse' do you think the Ymgarl Heads will go on a bloodletter body or would it look too big / small?
And don't worry about defending your self, it's your comany and and your good name on the line. It only takes one person to make something up and post it online to try and make you look bad.
Ive worked in customer service and you would not belive what people think they should expect. Errors and mistake happen. My first order with minimax went wrong but they helped one i explained the issue in a email and it was all relsoved and now i use them again. It not if there is a problem its how its sold that helps, but the customer has to be willing to help themselives. Ive found that loads of people are just too lazy to do anything and expect it to be done for them. Infact I found women are the very worst. They would scream and shout and make the most stupid demands coz a £6.00 was not the colour they expected. Poeple live in a blame someone / anyone else world. Sorry for the rant.
11029
Post by: Ketara
brettz123 wrote:
And it isn't too much to ask to actually get what you paid for either is it? When I buy something from a company I expect the items I ordered in 100% pristine condition. What I don't expect is a bunch of lip from the company about my complaint no matter what venue I air that complaint. How about you fix the problem like a professional and not go off on someone about a problem they complain about. They gave you money for an item and any problem with that item is 100% your fault. That is period the end.
So to clarify this. You post your complaint in a public forum, in an already volatile thread instead of sending the chap an email. And then you demand he act 'like a professional'?
Seriously, I recommend you examine your own method of conflict resolution. You're coming off as quite petty and unprofessional yourself here.
Your lack of professionalism is rather shocking. Would it have been beneath you to simply say something along the following lines"
"I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your order. If you can provide me with the order number I can find out what the issue was and send you replacement pieces. Again I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you and I will do my best to ensure that this problem is fixed. Thank you for your business and your patience."
I'm sure he would have done, had you chosen to air your complaint in a less combatative way.
I mean why would you say anything other than something along those lines? It makes you look childish and bitter so why do you constantly insist on taking the low road when it comes to any criticism you get on forums? The bottom line is it costs you business.
Because he feels he is being unfairly wronged? As already stated, there's a person there, not an employee of a multinational company. Considering the 'unprofessional' insult you keep slinging at him, you're really not up to delivering the 'childish and bitter' remark.
plastictrees wrote:Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.
Sympathize? You misunderstand. I'm just pointing out some of the obvious inadequacies in the vitriol being thrown his way. If you can't handle people pointing out the illogical flaws in your accusations when you start flinging them, you're in no position to be throwing those accusations in the first place.
Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.
So you would prefer you all got to slag him off and him not able to respond? Because what you basically just said there is 'if he dares respond to us in the way we are accusing him, he is unprofessional and wrong, whilst we are righteous and correct'. Sorry, that doesn't hold water.
Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".
My scenario is meant to demonstrate that perhaps the customer in this case is not acting in the most sensible of ways, and seems to have some bizare axe to grind with them publicly, moreso than he seems to be interested in resolving his issue with them. If he posted this about any company at the moment that isn't under fire, the larger part of the forum would just raise an eyebrow and enquire why he didn't attempt to do things the sensible way and contact the company before posting vitriol everywhere. Just because Chapterhouse is currently under fire doesn't make it suddenly okay.
CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.
He's responding personally, in a way I wish GW would.
But you seem to have some bizare problem with him doing that. Almost like you have a problem witha company being allowed to post on a public board, and defend themselves against accusation, professional or no.
14991
Post by: Boomer
Ymgr heads Automatically Appended Next Post: i think something is wrong with my posts......
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Boomer wrote:Ymgr heads Automatically Appended Next Post: i think something is wrong with my posts......
Nah you might of forgoten to put an extra ]/quote] happens sometimes.
14991
Post by: Boomer
Cool, all sorted and making sense!
36684
Post by: severedblue
Ketara wrote:Everyone has the right to respond when they're in the court of public opinion. ... You then weigh in with some incredibly inflammatory comments, and then tell him he's not allowed to defend himself?
QFT.
He chooses to serve you but he is not your servant. Entitlement is one of the more glaring forms of pride.
Ketara wrote:Whilst corporate entities might not respond to you baiting them, its because they're not personally involved, and honestly don't care what you have to say.
I like the fact Chapterhouse posts here. It gives it a personal touch. If that means he acts slightly unprofessional at times, so be it. It shows the fact there's a human on the other end that I can talk to, and work out my problems with as and when necessary, as opposed to a faceless corporate entity. I think you'd find he responded a lot more professionally though, if you'd cease baiting him, and then accusing him of being unprofessional at getting hot under the collar at what are thinly veiled insults at his ability to run a business.
QFT. Chapterhouse could have handled it more diplomatically, but it doesn't give license to bait in the first place. Especially since no opportunity was given to resolve this privately.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Did you read the original "complaint"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.
Again, maybe he didn't even think it was worth contacting the company about. $31 wasted, oh well. That doesn't mean that he's never allowed to tell anyone what happened.
I'm also allowed to state that CH's behaviour is unprofessional. If he expects to reap the benefits of having a presence on a forum, he has to take the negatives as well, which is commentary on the way he conducts himself. What I would prefer, is that he handles himself in a professional manner. He is choosing not to do so, so yes, I will continue to suggest that that is unacceptable. I don't expect him to change how's he acting, he's established in the past that he thinks critiquing another manufacturers work publicly is acceptable, so I'm pretty aware of who he is.
If you think it's acceptable, or somehow endearing, for a business owner to suggest publicly that any detractors or dissatisfied customers have hidden agendas or are simply liars, then that's your prerogative.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Well I guess I was brought up differently Casa.
To err is human etc.
If I had some faulty goods from CH I don't see how bitching on this thread would conceivably address my grievences.
The complaint is a personal issue and it is simply bad form to use this thread as an excuse to defame Chapterhouse, instead of following a more constructive procedure.
Sending an email after posting negative comments here is not a reasonable way to behave.
11029
Post by: Ketara
plastictrees wrote:Did you read the original "complaint"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.
'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter' are just a few of things I'm picking out from the OP. That's no straightforward experience description.
Again, maybe he didn't even think it was worth contacting the company about. $31 wasted, oh well. That doesn't mean that he's never allowed to tell anyone what happened.
Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.
I'm also allowed to state that CH's behaviour is unprofessional. If he expects to reap the benefits of having a presence on a forum, he has to take the negatives as well, which is commentary on the way he conducts himself. What would prefer, is that he handles himself in a professional manner. He is choosing not to do so, so yes, I will continue to suggest that that is unacceptable.
Sure. You're allowed to state whatever you like. But conversely, not only is he allowed to defend himself (something you seem to have difficulty grasping), but I am allowed to point out the flaws in your reasoning. And will continue to do so. He's not being hugely professional, sure. But you're hardly in a position to decide what is and is not 'acceptable'. I believe it is. You disagree.
If you think it's acceptable, or somehow endearing, for a business owner to suggest publicly that any detractors or dissatisfied customers have hidden agendas or are simply liars, then that's your prerogative.
What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Ketara wrote:plastictrees wrote:Did you read the original "complai[url]nt"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.
'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter' are just a few of things I'm picking out from the OP. That's no straightforward experience description.
Yeah, we're not talking about the same post at all here Ketara. I'm talking about this guy: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/31230.page
You seem to be attributing further complaints to some other, angrier, person who I don't think has even ordered from CH.
I don't really feel that you're pointing out flaws in my reasoning. We obviously just hold public representatives of companies to different standards.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
@Ketara I don't see "'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter'" in the person's description below. Nor his follow up 3 posts or so down. I think you a little confused as to who wrote the complaint. "I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42 and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00 " Seemed to me fairly open complaint about the quality he received. He not stating customer service sucks. Just that his product he received didn't meet his expectations or his actual order. Fixing it after the fact doesn't change that. It only helps smooth the feathers.
7433
Post by: plastictrees
Ketara wrote:
Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.
Ok, so now you literally appear to be saying that if he hadn't chosen to contact the company, he literally shouldn't mention to problem publicly, ever. Automatically Appended Next Post: plastictrees wrote:Ketara wrote:
Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.
Ok, so now you literally appear to be saying that if he hadn't chosen to contact the company, he literally shouldn't mention the problem publicly, ever.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
Ketara wrote:What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.
It is not irrelevant. We are all potential consumers on this forum because he is a business. If consumers perceive your actions as unprofessional then they will be less inclined to patronise your services or products. You can't act unprofessionally and then claim "I only acted unprofessionally because the customer did first."
Being professional when a customer may be out of line is the whole point. He could have acted professionally and then all the other potential consumers would have seen a company acting professionally in response to a complaint, legitimate or not.
The way he feels he needs to clear ones name and defend his business is doing more harm than the accusation that started it. 90% of people on these forums know shipping mistakes happen and resin miscasts happen. It isn't the fact they happened that is in question, it is the way the company handles it. Blaming the customer, telling him he doesn't know how resin works, publicly forwarding his communications, making excuses, all of that was unneeded and unprofessional. And people are calling him on it and his response is even MORE unprofessional.
We are customers and we have the right to determine if a company is acting professionally and determine what is 'acceptable' if we choose to support them with our business or not. You may think we are all horrible ogres, but we are not selling a product to anyone so there is actual a valid and legitimate double-standard. You want to do business and people to buy your products, then you hold yourself, your actions to a higher standard or be judged poorly by your consumers.
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Post by: wolfshadow
we've had a few people weigh in with "CH cust sevice sucks" and "It wasnt what I expected"
We've also had a bunch of people weigh in with 'I've had nothing but pleasant experiences with Chapterhouse.
I'm going to weigh in on an order thats in progress (Not yet recieved)...
I ordered a custom order (Not something that you can order directly off the webiste.) Nick came up with a price for what I wanted within 4 or 5 hours. (Probably much sooner, but thats when I checked my email).
There was a slight delay on my part as I waited to get my first order from Chapterhouse. (Recieved with 2 weeks during the Xmas holidays) I then email him back with the order confirmation.
He sent me a paypal invoice, and my order was shipped within 2 days. With Email notification that the oder was shipped due to the custom nature of the order.
Excellent communication, willing to step above and beyond what is offered publically if you contact him directly. Pretty prompt shipping.
I don't know what more people want customer service wise? Do they expect sexual favors?
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Post by: moonshine
I definatly want gw to win. If i came up with a cool wargame and someone else made money off it without even asking i would be pretty p***ed of
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Post by: Ketara
nkelsch wrote:Ketara wrote:What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.
It is not irrelevant. We are all potential consumers on this forum because he is a business. If consumers perceive your actions as unprofessional then they will be less inclined to patronise your services or products. You can't act unprofessionally and then claim "I only acted unprofessionally because the customer did first."
Being professional when a customer may be out of line is the whole point. He could have acted professionally and then all the other potential consumers would have seen a company acting professionally in response to a complaint, legitimate or not.
The way he feels he needs to clear ones name and defend his business is doing more harm than the accusation that started it. 90% of people on these forums know shipping mistakes happen and resin miscasts happen. It isn't the fact they happened that is in question, it is the way the company handles it. Blaming the customer, telling him he doesn't know how resin works, publicly forwarding his communications, making excuses, all of that was unneeded and unprofessional. And people are calling him on it and his response is even MORE unprofessional.
We are customers and we have the right to determine if a company is acting professionally and determine what is 'acceptable' if we choose to support them with our business or not. You may think we are all horrible ogres, but we are not selling a product to anyone so there is actual a valid and legitimate double-standard. You want to do business and people to buy your products, then you hold yourself, your actions to a higher standard or be judged poorly by your consumers.
I disagree with none of this. It's far more laid out, clearly worded, and less offensive than what was previously written. Well done. And I mean that sincerely.
I do however, feel compelled to point out that sure, he got a little hot under the collar, because the previous mud slinging was personally aimed. Not the best or most professional of moves. However, I believe that considering the insults being thrown his way, and the amount of it that was undeserved, that there were mitigating cricumstances.
You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.
As such, I empathise for his exact position here. I recognise that him being a bit negative to a negative customer is the flip side of him being incredibly positive to people who approach him in a positive manner. I prefer this myself to the multinational approach. YMMV.
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Post by: insaniak
Ketara wrote:You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.
It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.
Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.
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Post by: MisterMoon
I don't think there should be a problem with anyone selling things second hand. If I buy a Honda and resell it was riced up mods, I wouldn't be sued by Honda.
However, If I made car parts from scratch and put a Honda logo on it I'd be in trouble. CH has done this. They sell things with GW IP all over it.
However, selling a conversion piece for a particular model, as long as it doesn't have GW IP on it should be fine. It's like if I sell a muffler for a Honda Civic, folks have to know what it can be used for.
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Post by: nels1031
insaniak wrote:Ketara wrote:You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.
It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.
Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.
I agree that its a no one situation, but why would you take internet criticism personally though? The internet itself is impersonal, so to get all hot over it just shows some kind of personal immaturity on the part of whoever is posting as chapterhouse. No one is perfect, but it just makes everyone look bad to argue over it. A clear, concise reply to the initial compaint, handle it over private channels and don't allow yourself to be troll bait, as it makes you look like a douche or a little kid with a bad temper.
Dude would be better served to just post pics of his upcoming projects and lurk the forums under a different name. He's a pretty polarizing dude at the best of times and it affects some folks views of his products.
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Post by: Henners91
Games Workshop... because Chapterhouse were blatantly (I mean they didn't even change the names) stomping on their intellectual property and I feel that most of the hostility geared towards them stems from Dakka's illogical obsession with making out that they're the only remaining SS combat formation.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Hope we can get back on topic again, even when it's only the usual "I hate aftermarket" posts.
This is a thread about a specific lawsuit, not the Chapterhouse customer support thread for a specific order complain.
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Post by: MisterMoon
Here's my legal $.02
Green Light (never a problem)
Re selling GW bits and models that I bought for my personal use.
Yellow Light (could be a problem based off the circumstances)
Fabricating GW bits I bought for my personal use, or sculpting my own unique bits, or 3D rendering my own unique bits without GW IP on them. Say a differently shaped, blank shoulder pad, and selling them.
Red Light (Should always be illegal)
Doing the same as above with an aquila, or UM, or other chapter iconography and IP on it, or making the bit look exactly like the GW offering, say a plasma rifle which looks virtually no different than the GW Plasma rifle which is clearly their IP.
Chatperhouse does all of the above, and I think I'd take GW's side on this.
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Post by: brettz123
wolfshadow wrote:brettz123 wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).
Ok seriously?!?!?!?!??! Yeah blame the infamous "clicked on the wrong item" event as your out in this..... now thats shockingly professional. I mean really do you try and make it easy for people to root against you?
The thing is here, we don't know.
The customer hasnt even provided Nick with the Order # so he can find out........
The question I am raising isn't who is right or wrong (we don't know one way or the other). My point is simply that someone who owns a business should always act in a professional manner, especially on a public forum. It doesn't take a lot to just be polite and make a good impression on the rest of the forum posters. Why even get into with a customer? He could have just asked for the order number and left it at that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote:
So to clarify this. You post your complaint in a public forum, in an already volatile thread instead of sending the chap an email. And then you demand he act 'like a professional'?
Seriously, I recommend you examine your own method of conflict resolution. You're coming off as quite petty and unprofessional yourself here.
I'm sure he would have done, had you chosen to air your complaint in a less combatative way.
It wasn't my complaint so I would appreciate it if you got the basic facts right. I have never bought from CH and have no idea what their customer service is like or their products. So I did not air any complaints. As an official mod on this sight I would appreciate it if you would take the time to at least get your facts straight. I did not air any complaint about items received from CH. What I did was state that as a small business owner he should act professionally at all times in order to give a good perception of himself and his business to prospective buyers. I never attacked him or said anything negative about his products. My post was very clear about that. Again I would appreciate it if you would get your facts straight before trying to slam me on a public forum.
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Post by: Lax35
All I know is I want Jetseer and Jetlock conversion kits from Chapterhouse, and GW be damned if I can't have them.
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Post by: WillyBRags
nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them
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Post by: Chapterhouse
Then I would need you to email me his name so we can see what went on with the order, and pictures would definetly be a plus.
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Post by: WillyBRags
I will do that...in retro spec..looking back..whatever, I told him to order the upgrade kit 1 with that sweet looking skulls and whatnot on them....because I know they looked awesome, and when he got the order he said " no skulls kit...but you got something else" makes me think the order was probably messed up.....but like I said looking back...he probably did screw up the order, but I will email his name to you...and you can see the order for yourself, and see if it was just some random mistake on your shipping....or his fault for actually ordering what he knew I wouldn't like, either way...email incoming right now
Like I said I don't care is the order gets fixed or not, I'll use what was given to me...for something...like I said originally...I have orks...and strapping them onto a looted tank/rhino would be groovy, it's just the molding flaws and the broken pieces that bother me
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Post by: Ketara
brettz123 wrote:
It wasn't my complaint so I would appreciate it if you got the basic facts right. I have never bought from CH and have no idea what their customer service is like or their products. So I did not air any complaints. As an official mod on this sight I would appreciate it if you would take the time to at least get your facts straight. I did not air any complaint about items received from CH. What I did was state that as a small business owner he should act professionally at all times in order to give a good perception of himself and his business to prospective buyers. I never attacked him or said anything negative about his products. My post was very clear about that. Again I would appreciate it if you would get your facts straight before trying to slam me on a public forum.
My mistake, I appear to have confused you and Mr WillyBRags together on that score.
However, this does nothing except make me raise even more of an eyebrow at your terminology considering you have absolutely no stake or basis for malcontent against Chapterhouse (apparently). Calling a small time business owner 'bitter and childish' is guaranteed to raise his hackles I would think. Whilst I'm not disputing his acting in a slightly unprofessional way way (as can clearly be seen from my last post in here), I do believe you went slightly over and above board with 'insisting he was taking the low road'. Whilst you might not have meant for your comment to be interpreted in such a way, and hoped for people to read it more in line with nkelsch's last post for example, which read quite clinically and politely, it didn't quite come across like that.
insaniak wrote:
It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.
Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.
I would agree with this.
Though when it comes to placing an order with Chapterhouse in the future (as I may likely do in a few weeks), I wouldn't let the fact he got a little overheated in an argument with some of his naysayers in an online forum deter me from purchasing his products. Had WillyBrags actually attempted to return the product, and been treated badly, I would be hesitant. A few sarcastic words when he's heavily under fire? Not really. I don't buy from GW because they're a 'nice' company after all. All I'm after is a decent quality product, as long as the product is good, or they deliver a suitable replacement when a mistake has been made, I'm perfectly happy to disregard a small spat between him and his naysayers. I certainly wouldn't use it as a means by which to judge whether I'm going to buy his goods or not. However, as in all cases, YMMV.
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Post by: Kroothawk
WillyBRags wrote:nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them
I don't say you are wrong, but this "Hi send me free bitz at once or I will flame you on a big internet forum. No I didn't order from you, but a friend, who by chance deleted all records of that order" sounds a bit suspicious to say the least. So if a business is a bit reluctant to comply, that is understandable.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Legally CH should loose as it's bladantly using someone else's trademarks to sell stuff. However Chapterhouse doesnt seem to be making any alternative sets. If anything they're generating sales for GW as they only sell conversion sets, which prompts the average consumer to purchase the sets from GW.
Please, do not start statements with the term "Legally," when you obviously don't know the laws you're professing to be referring to.
Eric
MisterMoon wrote:I don't think there should be a problem with anyone selling things second hand. If I buy a Honda and resell it was riced up mods, I wouldn't be sued by Honda.
However, If I made car parts from scratch and put a Honda logo on it I'd be in trouble. CH has done this. They sell things with GW IP all over it.
However, selling a conversion piece for a particular model, as long as it doesn't have GW IP on it should be fine. It's like if I sell a muffler for a Honda Civic, folks have to know what it can be used for.
(Emphasis mine)
Show me where.
Please, use your expert legal knowledge to demonstrate the GW IP which CH has illegally used.
Note: I'm not asking for your laymans opinion. Since you made such a definitive statement of what CH has done, I'm presuming that this means you have some legal training and knowledge in the area of IP law.
I understand that, as a lawyer, the opinion you'll be sharing is just that, and should not be taken as legal counsel for anyone involved.
My apologies if my predisposition towards presuming you're a lawyer is mistaken. Since you made your statement with such iron-clad phrasing, I took it to mean that you actually knew the laws you were talking about.
Eric
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MisterMoon wrote:Here's my legal $.02
<SNIP>
Emphasis mine again.
Glad to know my presumption was corrent and that you're a lawyer.
Where did you go to school, and where do you practive IP law?
Eric
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WillyBRags wrote:nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them
WillyBRags wrote:I will do that...in retro spec..looking back..whatever, I told him to order the upgrade kit 1 with that sweet looking skulls and whatnot on them....because I know they looked awesome, and when he got the order he said " no skulls kit...but you got something else" makes me think the order was probably messed up.....but like I said looking back...he probably did screw up the order, but I will email his name to you...and you can see the order for yourself, and see if it was just some random mistake on your shipping....or his fault for actually ordering what he knew I wouldn't like, either way...email incoming right now
Like I said I don't care is the order gets fixed or not, I'll use what was given to me...for something...like I said originally...I have orks...and strapping them onto a looted tank/rhino would be groovy, it's just the molding flaws and the broken pieces that bother me
Credibility gone.
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Post by: WillyBRags
I sent chapterhouse an email, describing where the flaws were...since I had no camera, and he noticed them too, and he said he will set things right, I for one am happy, it was great talking with him.
I wasn't lying about it, my friend basically lied to me about the order, I seen the order slip that chapterhouse had, and he did order the wrong one, chapterhouse even offered to send me the stuff I originally wanted, if I sent in what I have now, but I got what was ordered so I'll keep what I got. The flaws were real, though I forgot to mention one piece being cracked through the middle, but whatever.
I'm happy he took the time to look at the pieces from the same set, and found that they had the same flaws, so he can get them fixed.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
How come the 30+ page thread in News & rumors which actually had opinions from actual lawyers (obviously not my lawyer, not legally binding etc. etc.) talking about related case law and such got locked, whilst thsi one which seems to hava much higher ratio of namecalling and hostility escaped such a fate?
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Post by: Polonius
Part of me would say that nobody is that interested in the actual merits of the case. People seem to want to see either the big bully or the parastitic leech lose.
A bigger part of me thinks that because that thread was actually informative, once it stopped including new info it became off topic. This thread is simply about conjecture and opinion.
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Post by: loki old fart
Polonius wrote:Part of me would say that nobody is that interested in the actual merits of the case. People seem to want to see either the big bully or the parastitic leech lose.
A bigger part of me thinks that because that thread was actually informative, once it stopped including new info it became off topic. This thread is simply about conjecture and opinion.
As we all know thats the more powerful arguement.
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Post by: insaniak
Polonius wrote:A bigger part of me thinks that because that thread was actually informative, once it stopped including new info it became off topic.
More or less. We prefer to keep News and Rumours threads more on point. Once that point is covered, it's time to move it to discussions. This thread certainly hasn't been as useful, infor-wise, but so long as it doesn't get too silly, it gives people somewhere to discuss this without a whole slew of other threads popping up about it, as tends to happen with this sort of topic.
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Post by: Captain Jack
Yup, getting off thread, but entertaining none the less.
I just want to make a couple of points, that maybe some people might be overlooking, in the feeding frenzy. A lot of people who are dead against CHS are not against the aftermarket pieces (well if they feel like me), but are dead against the way CHS has gone about their marketing and attitude to other peoples work and using it for their own gain. The other aftermarket suppliers that I do buy from don't directly take from GW artwork but put their own spin on their product.
Second point on CHS, and it is that their personal attitude to everything is that they are the only ones who can possible be right. Oh god wait... In CHS' defence what a couple of posters have put up about the CHS product when supplied is pretty off HOWEVER I cannot see how that gives CHS the right to behave in the way they have about it. I am also glad that things seem to be sorted with regards to that. How many threads are there of 'GW/FW screwed me? Count them against all the people who have said they have had great customer service. If you're taking money from people for product, mistakes are going to be made, but the fixing is all important for customers.
Well, if nothing else this thread like the last has polarised further opinion on CHS, and I feel like my opinion has been confirmed, both here and elsewhere.
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Post by: MikeMcSomething
I want X company to win because (insert lack of nuanced understanding here)
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Post by: Aduro
Captain Jack wrote: The other aftermarket suppliers that I do buy from don't directly take from GW artwork but put their own spin on their product.
How so? All the examples I posted a page or two ago from different companies all clearly take off the GW style. Chapterhouse puts just as much original spin into their work as anyone else.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Aduro wrote:Captain Jack wrote: The other aftermarket suppliers that I do buy from don't directly take from GW artwork but put their own spin on their product.
How so? All the examples I posted a page or two ago from different companies all clearly take off the GW style. Chapterhouse puts just as much original spin into their work as anyone else.
From my understanding (however limited) where Chapterhouse is going to run into trouble is not the products themselves, but how they were marketed. A couple of the products are close... but different enough that it shouldn't cause an issue. Its still apretty grey area, and this case is no where near as cut and dried as some people are making it out to be. (See some of the posts by Polonius as to why it is a grey area)
The stuff from Maxmini is close, but generic enough that no one can complain, and they don't market it on their site as GW related.(Which they have to be careful with due to Polish / EU IP laws) Marine helmets are marketed as "steam Knights'.... etc. Ork heads are marketed as Orcs... and yes, the letter makes a difference.
Conversion kits are legal. Using GWs trademarks to advertise them... questionably so.
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Post by: Platuan4th
wolfshadow wrote: Conversion kits are legal. Using GWs trademarks to advertise them... questionably so. And only slightly questionably, at that, considering how large a grey area fair use is. You're legally allowed to sell using some one else's trademark, it's purely up to a court of law whether you crossed a line regarding it when someone takes issue. At least, that's how it read to me from the law stuff that Polonius posted and tried to explain in lay terms.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Captain Jack wrote:... A lot of people who are dead against CHS are not against the aftermarket pieces (well if they feel like me), but are dead against the way CHS has gone about their marketing and attitude to other peoples work and using it for their own gain....
From the CH side, they've been told what their doing is right, they had a paid professional check that what they were doing is "legal" because they didn't want to step on GW's toes. If you were paying someone a couple hundred dollars an hour to double check the legality of your work, wouldn't you believe him? If CH comes off as having an attitude its because they have a professional telling them what they did was right.
If you were reccommended by a doctor a diet and excercise plan to stave off hereditary heart problems and then your not too well liked co-worker who has no expertise tells you to do something to the contrary, who do you believe? This is the health of CH as a company and the way it describes its product is how it was prescribed to, in an aftermarket industry that has a history of being crowded out and sued by GW.
Though following advice isn't a defense of an "attitude," CH's lawyer obviously must know something or he wouldn't be on the bar of his state. The fact that GW's lawyers have only sued for TM and not copyright, shows that CH's lawyers did atleast enough to protect them from that aspect of what GW might have tried to pursue.
What is CH to do? Should any business bend over backwards, spending time, energy, and money to satisfy what some other business who has an amorphous sense of entitlement wants to dictate? That type of "relationship" rarely works. The fact is that GW, through their own legal page tells you, you can or can't do things that legal they aren't in a position to dictate. So how is anyone really suppose to know without getting council.
I think some degree of ill will towards CH, comes from the fact that people believe there is a higher level of rights and protections afforded to IP than there actually is. That some people's feelings and sentiments exceed the actual legal protections. It is the tendency of laws to fall in the grey boundary of what people agree is "right" and thus leaving some to agree an action to be legal but ethically questionable.
Platuan4th wrote:wolfshadow wrote:
Conversion kits are legal. Using GWs trademarks to advertise them... questionably so.
And only slightly questionably, at that, considering how large a grey area fair use is. You're legally allowed to sell using some one else's trademark, it's purely up to a court of law whether you crossed a line regarding it when someone takes issue.
At least, that's how it read to me from the law stuff that Polonius posted and tried to explain in lay terms.
It isn't even a matter of "phrasing" as people have tried to construct examples. Phrasing is one out of ten or so conditions the court will look at to test and weigh whats presented. That even if the court believes CH's phrasing is poor, that isn't enough. It is the sum total of all the attributes that the court will consider to determine if CH has created an atmosphere of confusion and ambiguity.
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Post by: Frazzled
brettz123 wrote:Chapterhouse wrote:
I think there are many customers who have ordered from us, have had problems with products and see we are more then happy to do what we can to fix those problems.
Contrary to what some people believe, just being a paying customer does not give you a blatant right to try to make that company look bad if you have a problem with a product, especially when you have not done anythign to reach out to the company and see if they will help. Am I defensive by caring what is posted about me and my company to our customer base, especially when there is no recourse for my company, yes I am.
Call that a false sense of entitlement, or whatever.
Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?
All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.
And it isn't too much to ask to actually get what you paid for either is it? When I buy something from a company I expect the items I ordered in 100% pristine condition. What I don't expect is a bunch of lip from the company about my complaint no matter what venue I air that complaint. How about you fix the problem like a professional and not go off on someone about a problem they complain about. They gave you money for an item and any problem with that item is 100% your fault. That is period the end.
Your lack of professionalism is rather shocking. Would it have been beneath you to simply say something along the following lines"
"I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your order. If you can provide me with the order number I can find out what the issue was and send you replacement pieces. Again I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you and I will do my best to ensure that this problem is fixed. Thank you for your business and your patience."
I mean why would you say anything other than something along those lines? It makes you look childish and bitter so why do you constantly insist on taking the low road when it comes to any criticism you get on forums? The bottom line is it costs you business.
Moderator Frazzled says
This back and forth between you two is pointless. You two can take it private or off the Board.
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Post by: AndrewC
Sorry to turn the thread back 6 pages.
I said earlier that GW business practice was to cut supplies to the independent stores prior to opening their own, a few people said that was wrong, so I'll clarify my statement.
GW will remove competition in marginal areas by cutting supply. If an area is capable of supporting multiple shops then GW will continue to supply the competition as a sale is a sale. Where the local demographics will not support multiple shops but still has a viable sales income, which will support a GW shop, then they will cut supplies to independent retailers to curtail competition.
This is why we have one poster saying there are no stores nearby, and other posters saying there are plenty.
Does that make more sense?
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by: Hulksmash
Could be true in Britain Andrew. But it's not correct from my experience here in the US. I'd say clarify your statement to the country your in and provide some sort of proof beyond "I said so".
I know a ton of independent stores that survive just fine with-in a GW metro selling GW products. In fact, granted this is 7 years ago, the goal was to recruit them in the GW store and then shift them over to the Independents who are better about catering to Veterans. That was standing policy in the Western Region in the US 2001-2003. Not sure if it changed after that though.
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Post by: AndrewC
Hulksmash wrote:Could be true in Britain Andrew. But it's not correct from my experience here in the US. I'd say clarify your statement to the country your in and provide some sort of proof beyond "I said so".
I know a ton of independent stores that survive just fine with-in a GW metro selling GW products. In fact, granted this is 7 years ago, the goal was to recruit them in the GW store and then shift them over to the Independents who are better about catering to Veterans. That was standing policy in the Western Region in the US 2001-2003. Not sure if it changed after that though.
To give that info lands the source in serious trouble, who has already fought off that particular attack once before. And I would never assume to say what business practices of GW are in other countries
Though from this thread I would say they still stink wherever they are
Cheers
Andrew
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
sk82712 wrote:I'm by no means a lawyer. But. CH (even though they are renaming stuff on their website) is taking names of products from GW. Plain and simple. Which AFAIK is a violation of IP. -Adam My take on this thing: ChapterHouse has every right to use the *exact*, specific GW product names for which their parts are to interchange. When Chaperhouse says they are making a shoulderpad for a "Games Workshop Space Marine", this is no different than Veilside saying that their bodykit is for a "1999 Honda Civic" versus a "1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse". That is, ChapterHouse is simply making a standard nominative reference, which should be generally allowed to provide clarity and avoid confusion. What Chapterhouse cannot do (and I see no evidence of them doing so), is say that they are selling actual GW products. Also, ChapterHouse also has every right to use GW "interfaces", such as the dimensions and curvature of SM shoulderpad interior "face" / SM arm shoulder exterior "face", because these are necessary and integral to producing a compatible part. In the same way that Lego's brick-to-brick interface is denied design copyright (Lego copyrights their complex brick shapes - things with angles and curves, and so forth because these are properly art compared to the basic mechanical interfaces and dimensions / tolerances), GW may not claim design copyright over mechanical interfaces. Same situation with Honda claiming design copyright over how the bumpers attach to the Civic, or the outline and edge contours of the hood - any part which replaces the OEM part must, by mechanical necessity, follow the same outline and edge contours in order to be compatible with the OEM vehicle. So from my perspective, Chapterhouse *should* win, assuming they can afford to pay their legal bills. Of course, I'm just an engineer, so what do I know about law... Automatically Appended Next Post: Polonius wrote:If you're saying that they used the image GW created (the sketch) as the basis, that's also allowed, again, as long as the actual creation is not "substantially similar"
Again, I'd recommend reading FASA v. Tomy http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-5.txt which does a really good job of demonstrating how copyright would apply to hobby products.
Thanks for the reference - it's quite a good read!
I particularly like the section on the Mad Cat, which was probably FASA's strongest example of potential Copyright infringement:
FASA v Tomy wrote:64. Unlike the Mad Cat design, one arm of the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype
has a rotating cannon or Gatling gun that is very highly detailed that goes up
into a much thicker arm than the arm on the Mad Cat design.
65. Unlike the Mad Cat design, the top of the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype
forms a straight line without a dip in the center.
66. Unlike the Mad Cat, the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype has multiple
rounded areas on the cockpit.
67. The nose of the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype is shorter than the nose
of the Mad Cat.
68. Unlike the Mad Cat design, the upper part of the Heavy Attack E-Frame
prototype is very solid and very heavy, with much detail running across the
center section.
69. Unlike the Mad Cat design, the Heavy Attack E-Frame has a thicker
transition of the torso down into the base with weapons hanging below the bottom
center section.
70. The legs of the Mad Cat design are significantly taller, thinner and
scrawnier than the legs of the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype.
71. Unlike the Mad Cat design, the legs of the Heavy Attack E-Frame have
swing-out shields on the sides with a tremendous amount of detail imposed on
them.
72. Unlike the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype, the Mad Cat design is very
sleek, very thin-including the arms and legs. The Mad Cat design is much more
fragile-looking than the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototype.
73. The Heavy Attack E-Frame prototypes draw from the following sourc,: the
shoulder joint, leg assembly, gun and feet are from ROBOCOP's ED-209;
the shoulder-mounted missile launcher is similar to many earlier designs,
including the MACROSS Tomahawk and the DOUGRAM
Soltic "Roundfacer HS"
74. Even Mr. Crowe, FASA's own confusion witness, acknowledged that there
were sufficient differences between the Heavy Attack E-Frame for him to
distinguish it from the Mad Cat.
75. Numerous key design differences outweigh any general similarities in the
designs of the Mad Cat and the Heavy Attack E-Frame [*1158] and indicate that
one was not copied from the other. The protectible aspects of the Mad Cat and
Heavy Attack E-Frame designs are substantially dissimilar.
157. To create the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototypes, Mr. Edmisson purchased
six to eight third-party model kits, including the "RoboCop" ED 209 (DX 384)
from a Japanese-imports store, and GI Joe action figures with spring-loaded
weapons and military vehicles from Toys "R Us, all of which were pieced together
along with other materials to form the Heavy Attack E-Frame.
158. Some of the pieces of the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototypes came directly
from model kits: the legs came from the ED 209 kit, the upper portion was
created from a plastic box, and a rotating cannon from a Hasbro GI Joe became
part of one arm.
160. FASA has not shown by a preponderance of the evidence that any
similarities between the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototypes and the Mad Cat design
are not attributable to the many commonalities inhering in the pre-existing
similar robots that are available to designers.
752
Post by: Polonius
By the way, I was very happy when discussing that case with a friend of mine that I was able to say the words, "Actually, I have giant robot precedent."
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
Yeah, but it sounds dirty when you say it.
Eric
1963
Post by: Aduro
No new news on this yet? How long until one would expect for something to happen?
26603
Post by: InventionThirteen
It is games workshop's intellectual property and chapterhouse need to accept that. I don't expect them to win at all.
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
Aduro wrote:No new news on this yet? How long until one would expect for something to happen?
At this time, our attorneys have requested a "waiver of service" from the GW attorneys. From my understanding this is a common agreement between attorneys (it is common courtesy) that allows all involved parties more time to research and get all the ducks in a row.
So I wouldn't expect anything to occur for a one, maybe two months.
Sorry, no LA Law drama to be released.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
InventionThirteen wrote:It is games workshop's intellectual property and chapterhouse need to accept that.
Except this is more about TM use, and CH has a big blurb saying its using the GW's TM, but that's perfectly legal. A lot of the other stuff people have emotionally brought up about CH's models copying GW's is a different point that has nothing to do with this case.
The sentiments expressed by some are the equivalent to finding someone guilty of say animal cruelty because people believe a man beats his spouse. It is bad legal practice to find someone guilty just because you believe someone guilty of something else.
CH has acted responsibly following their legal guidance. That is why this case is about unfair TM use and not about copyright.
14991
Post by: Boomer
I've hard the worst week at work ever, sooo glad its Friday.
And as I got home tonight, guess whats waiting for me. The 24 Yrgals heads I ordered.
All the way from US! Im quite impressed the delivery took about 12 days or so from day of order, but consdering the cost that really good in my book.
The parts were also wrapped up nicely and nothing was smashed, tho I was shocked when I saw on the front of the envelope 'toy parts' on the contents box. God only knows what the post man now thinks!
The heads themselves are great, nice crisp details and little flash. And i got the correct amount.
I'm really glad I made my order now. As I'm going to use them in my xeno army as the heads of my converted stormboyz.
Nick, I've seen you get a lot of flak on this thread. But as a pleased customer, I rate your site and service as A1 and will be placing second order soon for more parts.
I hope we see ChapterHouse keep going for a long time yet!
5873
Post by: kirsanth
I still have only good things from CH, which works for me as I am adding them to the good things I have from GW.
Without GW, I would order less from CH. Without CH, I would order less from GW.
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
I'm surprised so many want to see GW win the lawsuit. Can't understand why unless it's merely GW loyalty, dislike of Chapterhouse or a confused sense of the damage GW are suffering. GW aren't really being damaged by CH, they aren't losing money to them, they won't lose their IP, they won't end up as a generic product, there won't be precedent to open the floodgates to a million legitimate recasters on eBay. NOTHING significant will happen if GW lose. If GW win it just means another company supplying materials for the hobbyist goes out of business. A victory for all I suppose. People aren't being asked to choose between GW and CH, effectively you are choosing between a world where you have GW and CH, or a world with just GW. Perhaps those voting for GW to crush Chapterhouse think they are voting for the legal or moral high ground. Well that's hardly clear cut, though there are people in spades on this and other threads declaring that "Chapterhouse are in the wrong" and "Chapterhouse broke the law" as though their declarations were proof in themselves. Nobody can say for sure, the unfortunate thing is that GW may just price CH out of the courtroom. I don't get it. Very few here are qualified to make a call on the legal rights and wrongs of the case either way, so all the majority can reasonably do is vote as a hobbyist. Do you want an independent company like CH to continue trading? Do you want there to be a wider variety of conversion parts enriching the market? The fact that a sizeable number of so-called hobbyists would rather see them go out of business, to suit a company who are not affected at all either way, disappoints me. All people are achieving by hoping GW win is that there's less customer choice for hobbyists everywhere. Hurrah.
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Post by: Just Dave
For me at least Howard, and the poll being Yes or No can't display this, but it's not so much that I want GW to win (although I did vote so, due to the black/white nature of the poll), but I believe Chapterhouse are in the wrong.
I don't claim to be a lawyer or have any real comprehension of the system, however I do still nonetheless GW are almost right in their claim/case.
I've got nothing against Chapterhouse and am not biased towards GW, however I still believe Chapterhouse is in the wrong.
13984
Post by: Captain Jack
+1
For me it's the attitude of CHS that puts me off, none of the other parts suppliers have gone so close to the bone. To even put out a mini and call it by the official codex name is damning to me, most of the others skirt around the edges and are fine. Are Maxmini or Scibor being squeezed? Nope, because they are being smart about it, kinda like natural selection for minis companies. The attitude that 'well GW doesn't make it now, so I will' doesn't wash, and trying to make money by in effect claiming that these are almost official bits is laughable, and based on fan artwork and not original. The statement that now that they have made a 'Doom of Manatees' and they now own the rights to the name and mini (from another forum) is also laughable, and probably one of the kickers for GW taking action in the first place.
As for the Legal aspect, well 99% of us aren't trained, and those that are have given a great insight to the system. However forums are by nature an area of discussion, and peoples oppinions will come out. Rightly or wrongly.
IMO, the bitz world can stand to loose the odd company that shouts too loud, while the rest quietly get on with coming up with original pieces to compliment and not replace.
37798
Post by: alphaomega
Just Dave wrote:For me at least Howard, and the poll being Yes or No can't display this, but it's not so much that I want GW to win (although I did vote so, due to the black/white nature of the poll), but I believe Chapterhouse are in the wrong.
I don't claim to be a lawyer or have any real comprehension of the system, however I do still nonetheless GW are almost right in their claim/case.
I've got nothing against Chapterhouse and am not biased towards GW, however I still believe Chapterhouse is in the wrong.
It is in essence more debate but, Contract and Civil Law in the UK (which covers Copyright infringement) would state that if the product was of a certain degree of difference from the original then the product is a new product. And the next precedent will contradict this and so forth.
Chapterhouse would have to ideally prove that they had not infringed on that copyright and as such no damage to the IP of GW.
I have a basic idea of the concept of Civil law, so not in any form a Solicitor-Advocate (A Lawyer in the UK), but can see that this case is in fact a very grey case and could take a long time to sort out. Which means that high legal fees can be induced meaning even if CH did win, they might find themselves bankrupt.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I still don't get the "CH are too blatant" argument.
Because someone says that x can be used with 40k they have been labelled with some nasty tags, whereas if thay had made the same product (and it would remain blindingly obvious what the use is intended for) no one would apparently care.
Sorry, just don't get it.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
That was precisely my point about 17 pages ago.
There is little merit in the GW case, however the expense of defending it might scare Chapterhouse out of the market, and this result would have a salutary effect on other companies who might think of providing after market parts for GW kits.
The ultimate losers are the wargaming public. No suitable kits and parts from GW (for Tervigons, as an example) and no third party conversion parts either.
Experienced gamers can simply mod and scratch-build of course.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
Some people have a talent for ideas.
Some have a talent for figuring out which ideas to imitate or jump on.
Some have a talent (like that Tomy vs FASA) for figuring out legal technicalities why it wasn't actually a rip-off of an idea.
(translation)
Some people create the concept art
Some people steal the concept product
Some people cheat the rules of what is stealing
I root for the first. Intellectual property is property, and sadly the ones that decide these cases are most likely not the types to own intellectual property of their own creativity, so don't know what its like to watch someone else profiteering off their ideas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some people have a talent for ideas.
Some have a talent for figuring out which ideas to imitate or jump on.
Some have a talent (like that Tomy vs FASA) for figuring out legal technicalities why it wasn't actually a rip-off of an idea.
(translation)
Some people create the concept art
Some people steal the concept product
Some people cheat the rules of what is stealing
I root for the first. Intellectual property is property, and sadly the ones that decide these cases are most likely not the types to own intellectual property of their own creativity, so don't know what its like to watch someone else profiteering off their ideas.
7192
Post by: BloodQuest
My original view was that CHS were pushing their luck, but I have to say that between this and the other (legal) thread, I've completely changed my mind about the whole thing.
I hope CHS prevails in this without taking too much of a financial hit from the legal costs.
Also, it is very hard to bite your tongue when people are attacking a small business that you've put heart and soul into, so let's cut the guy a little slack, can we?
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
BloodQuest wrote:My original view was that CHS were pushing their luck, but I have to say that between this and the other (legal) thread, I've completely changed my mind about the whole thing.
I hope CHS prevails in this without taking too much of a financial hit from the legal costs.
Yay!
:Looks at current poll numbers:
One down, 244 to go!
Eric
21358
Post by: Dysartes
Guitardian wrote:Some people have a talent for ideas.
Some have a talent for figuring out which ideas to imitate or jump on.
Some have a talent (like that Tomy vs FASA) for figuring out legal technicalities why it wasn't actually a rip-off of an idea.
(translation)
Some people create the concept art
Some people steal the concept product
Some people cheat the rules of what is stealing
I root for the first. Intellectual property is property, and sadly the ones that decide these cases are most likely not the types to own intellectual property of their own creativity, so don't know what its like to watch someone else profiteering off their ideas.
Quick point, Guitaridan - you do realise that a lot of the time GW fall into your second category, not first, right? As such, surely you should be neutral regarding this case.....
18499
Post by: Henners91
Has GW won yet?
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.
::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )
Eric
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Guitardian wrote:I root for the first. Intellectual property is property, and sadly the ones that decide these cases are most likely not the types to own intellectual property of their own creativity, so don't know what its like to watch someone else profiteering off their ideas.
The problem with your notion is that "intellectual property" is a legally defined artifice and being defined it has explicit rights and privlages of protection. Indirectly every one else has a right to do anything with those IP that isn't explicitly forbidden and in rare instances everyone has explicit rights to use another's IP in specific ways.
What I find frustrating is that everything CH has done is explicitly allowed; GW's arguement and this case is not whether CH is doing something wrong, but that the combination of things CH has done, despite the independant legality of each action, amounts to a violation of GW's rights. That CH has created too much ambiguity between itself and GW.
That's the real question, does CH present itself as or with association to GW? Everything else is just smokescreens to the issue going to court.
Even if we hypothetically assumed every CH model was a direct copy of a GW piece, that is not legal issue being looked at. People are bringing into this alot of notions of what they think GW's stance is or should be based on their ethical beliefs, but haven't bothered to look at what GW actually cares about and the legal footing non-IP holders have.
18499
Post by: Henners91
MagickalMemories wrote:If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.
::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )
Eric
I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Henners91 wrote:I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...
Yeah, it show's.
Competence is heresy, the true heart is uncorrupted by facts
10143
Post by: Slipstream
As far as I can see the only thing Chapterhouse has done is to highlight to GW the following: YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS. People want the parts and kits to build their armies how they want them. Even when you buy a specific GW army like marines you do not get enough parts to make each figure recognisable as belonging to an army, you only tend to get half the amount you need. I don't rate a lot of CH stuff very highly as they tend to lack the final detail. On the other hand I don't rate GW's metal replacement shoulder pads. For a Dark Angel army I put together last year I got metal pads only to discover that they were smaller in scale to the plastic ones already attached to the model.
If GW are going to have specific armies then those armies should have all the bells and whistles so that the armies are recognised as such and no half measures.
The word that we should bear in mind is GENERIC. Otherwise there would be only one brand of Computer, One brand of mobile phone, one brand of medicine, One brand of car...
I'd like to see CH win, mainly because it might force GW to rethink their policy on the availability of parts/kits.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Henners91 wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.
::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )
Eric
I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...
Someone might then point out that you should also stop posting in it!
32644
Post by: Mr Mystery
So what is the news then, for those of us who can't be arsed to wade through 18 pages?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Mr Mystery wrote:So what is the news then, for those of us who can't be arsed to wade through 18 pages?
That both sides are in fact-finding modes by agreement, it seems. I don't think it'll see the inside of a courtroom for 1-2 months at least.
32644
Post by: Mr Mystery
Fairly dos.
Cheers matey.
3720
Post by: brettz123
Hopefully this all ends soon
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
oops wrong thread...
10273
Post by: Chapterhouse
Update on the legal matter at hand:
My company, Chapterhouse Studios LLC, has been very fortunate to locate pro-bono council with the help and tips of a few of our customers. Those customers have intensive legal background as well as leads that helped us find a firm that believes in our case enough to support us.
Thanks to some friends good advice and experience we have a legal agreement for Winston & Strawn LLP - http://winstonandstrawn.com/ to represent us in our case.
I consider myself very lucky to have three attorneys from the firm willing to be our representatives during the case and any other negotiations with Games Workshop. The lead on the case Jennifer Golinveaux has some major experience behind her, and I am confident that with her teams' help we will come out of this experience in great shape.
I think the attorneys thought this was a slam-dunk case for Games Workshop and we had no legal ground to stand on that there would be little chance for us to find such an outstanding firm to help us.
For everyone who has given their support, I really do appreciate it. I will do my best to let everyone know what happens (as much as is ok with the attorneys). We are truly grateful for Winston and Strawn as well as our loyal customers.
Sincerely,
Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
That's fantastic news! I wonder if GW will blink.
22004
Post by: wardancer
great stuff. go Chapterhouse
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Guitardian wrote:Some people have a talent for ideas.
Some have a talent for figuring out which ideas to imitate or jump on.
Some have a talent (like that Tomy vs FASA) for figuring out legal technicalities why it wasn't actually a rip-off of an idea.
(translation)
Some people create the concept art
Some people steal the concept product
Some people cheat the rules of what is stealing
Some people call me the space cowboy
Some people call me the gangster of love
Some people call my Maureece
'cause I speak of the pompetous of love
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Okay, but think about the message that Chapterhouse is sending: not a legal firm able to defend them, but a firm willing to defend them. Was it the original firm that first game them the legal opinion that "Sure, why not?"
3081
Post by: chaplaingrabthar
It looks like this firm has a history of representing major clients, including Google, but are taking the Chapterhouse case on a pro bono basis for some reason. I suspect it's t try and establish some kind of clarity in the murkier areas of IP law and trademark usage but one of Dakkadakka's many law-talking guys might be able to grasp it more clearly.
I'd still strongly recommend that Chapterhouse cease posting anything on here or other forums concerning the lawsuit, as it's ongoing litigation and anything said could possibly be admissible in court and may be detrimental for their case. I'm no lawyer though, so that's a post coming from what I consider common sense, which is often not enshrined with legal niceties.
I'd be very surprised if that conflicted with the legal advice they're receiving from Winston & Strawn.
that's my 2 cents (my words are cheaper than most lawyers, except on a pro bono basis  )
Edit: Darn lowercase 'p' not working for the tongue in cheek Orkmoticon
131
Post by: malfred
chaplaingrabthar wrote:
I'd still strongly recommend that Chapterhouse cease posting anything on here or other forums concerning the lawsuit, as it's ongoing litigation and anything said could possibly be admissible in court and may be detrimental for their case. I'm no lawyer though, so that's a post coming from what I consider common sense, which is often not enshrined with legal niceties.
Are you giving Chapterhouse a Cease and Desist on their Cease and Desist?
;D
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I'm still holding on to hope that both sides will somehow contrive to lose at the same time. I want the see the current stagnant status quo to change a bit.
5245
Post by: Buzzsaw
Nurglitch wrote:Okay, but think about the message that Chapterhouse is sending: not a legal firm able to defend them, but a firm willing to defend them. Was it the original firm that first game them the legal opinion that "Sure, why not?"
Huh?
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a very subtle point, or are just ignorant of the mechanisms of the American legal system. Presuming it's the latter (if it's the former I'm very curious as to your meaning), there are certain things I think we can reasonably infer:
1) The original legal work Chapterhouse had done was by "local counsel"; either a small firm or a solo, who gave them general guidelines,
2) If that's the case, such a firm would be very hard pressed to answer the extensive, federal matters that the current litigation presents,
3) Even if they were willing to, it must be realized that CH has "traded up" in almost every sense.
I dunno who gave the original opinions to CH (not does it matter), but Winston & Strawn is Big fish. As in, a 900 lawyer, multinational firm. As in $744 million in 2008 revenue. And CH is being represented by a partner at said firm.
I don't think that the real impact here may be quite clearly appreciated: previously, I think the best bet was that CH would have been lucky to have settled in such a way as to preserve some part of their business. That's not on the table anymore really, or at least not in any sort of worrisome way.
We're looking at the very real chance now of this case going to trial. And let me tell you, as an IP attorney, that's something that is going to worry GW's lawyers to a major degree.
The reason for that is that Intellectual Property is the only kind of property where you don't know what you have until you go to court.
Going before a judge means a very real chance that GW might not just lose this particular action, but they may have some of their terms simply stripped away; that is, that some of the things they claim as "their IP" simply goes away. Will this happen? I dunno. But it must be understood that in IP, when cases go to court, there is a real chance that the parties come out completely transformed.
5470
Post by: sebster
I hope Chapterhouse wins. I think we'd be looking at a much better industry for the consumer if people were able to build their armies from whatever model ranges they liked. I wonder if GW would be happy to let the Dark Eldar range drift for a decade if other companies were in there offering their own Dark Eldar models? As for is actually going to win... hell if I know. The way Chapterhouse sold their products and included GW terms on them jumps out at me as problematic, but I'm not a lawyer so I just do anything more than guess if it's actually illegal.
17349
Post by: SilverMK2
Chapterhouse have started a new thread which (I believe) they will be using to keep us as up to date as they are able on how things are progressing.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
chaplaingrabthar wrote:It looks like this firm has a history of representing major clients, including Google, but are taking the Chapterhouse case on a pro bono basis for some reason. I suspect it's t try and establish some kind of clarity in the murkier areas of IP law and trademark usage but one of Dakkadakka's many law-talking guys might be able to grasp it more clearly.
As in, they may have a *much* larger case in the background, and see this as a cheap way to set a precedent? Or they are retained by clients for whom setting such precedent would be beneficial?
Or, maybe, the partner's simply got a kid who plays 40k and wants some stuff cast up legally.
We won't find out for a year, so it's pure speculation
Also, while CHS probably can't comment on the details, legal filings which are part of the public record (e.g. PACER / LexisNexis) can be shared without much risk. In this case, they've simply stated who their counsel are. That is a matter of record that all interested parties are entitled to know as a matter of course.
____
Buzzsaw wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to make a very subtle point, or are just ignorant of the mechanisms of the American legal system. Presuming it's the latter (if it's the former I'm very curious as to your meaning), there are certain things I think we can reasonably infer:
1) The original legal work Chapterhouse had done was by "local counsel"; either a small firm or a solo, who gave them general guidelines,
2) If that's the case, such a firm would be very hard pressed to answer the extensive, federal matters that the current litigation presents,
3) Even if they were willing to, it must be realized that CH has "traded up" in almost every sense.
I dunno who gave the original opinions to CH (not does it matter), but Winston & Strawn is Big fish. As in, a 900 lawyer, multinational firm. As in $744 million in 2008 revenue. And CH is being represented by a partner at said firm.
I don't think that the real impact here may be quite clearly appreciated: previously, I think the best bet was that CH would have been lucky to have settled in such a way as to preserve some part of their business. That's not on the table anymore really, or at least not in any sort of worrisome way.
We're looking at the very real chance now of this case going to trial. And let me tell you, as an IP attorney, that's something that is going to worry GW's lawyers to a major degree.
The reason for that is that Intellectual Property is the only kind of property where you don't know what you have until you go to court.
Going before a judge means a very real chance that GW might not just lose this particular action, but they may have some of their terms simply stripped away; that is, that some of the things they claim as "their IP" simply goes away. Will this happen? I dunno. But it must be understood that in IP, when cases go to court, there is a real chance that the parties come out completely transformed.
Yeah, IP law is very interesting stuff, precisely because we're talking about pure thought.
Based on the Playmates case, I suspect that GW's model IP may be vastly weaker than they've been able get people to believe, but has been "protected" simply by virtue of everybody they challenge being smaller guys and unable to mount a proper legal defense. Kinda like how Monster Cable operates. If / when the curtain is pulled, the Wizard may turn out to be nothing but a little old man.
Should be interesting.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.
Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.
The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.
Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.
GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.
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Post by: filbert
Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.
Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.
The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.
Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.
GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.
Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.
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Post by: nerdfest09
Well, without jumping on the whole legal side of things, we have already seen and stated that CH have made the error of stating that some things were 'space marine' pads and so on, but I am rooting for them to win this one, all my dealings with them have always been positive and their passion for the game we play is what ignited the fire for them to make the products in the first place and then they were nice enough to make parts available to the rest of us, sure GW aren't happy with them but c'mon, just let them be so we can all have awesome bits on our armies!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
filbert wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.
Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.
The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.
Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.
GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.
Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.
The point of an out of court settlement is that it will not create any legal precedents. It usually includes a gagging clause on both sides, too.
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Post by: filbert
Kilkrazy wrote:filbert wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too. Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine. The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into. Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover. GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally. Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground. The point of an out of court settlement is that it will not create any legal precedents. It usually includes a gagging clause on both sides, too. So if GW are smart and think that there is any chance, however minuscule, that the ruling might not go in their favour, then they will withdraw the suit and settle out of court? Cunning...
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Post by: brettz123
Very good news for Chapterhouse indeed. Hopefully it goes to court and a real decision is made so we all have a better idea of what can and can't be done. That would be nice to get some clarity on the situation. The secret evil american side of me is starting to root for the small guy.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Kilkrazy wrote:It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.
Oh, that would be great. It would throw the entire field into chaos, if only for a little while. And chaos is its own reward.
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Post by: Eldanar
JohnHwangDD wrote:chaplaingrabthar wrote:It looks like this firm has a history of representing major clients, including Google, but are taking the Chapterhouse case on a pro bono basis for some reason. I suspect it's t try and establish some kind of clarity in the murkier areas of IP law and trademark usage but one of Dakkadakka's many law-talking guys might be able to grasp it more clearly.
As in, they may have a *much* larger case in the background, and see this as a cheap way to set a precedent? Or they are retained by clients for whom setting such precedent would be beneficial?
Or, maybe, the partner's simply got a kid who plays 40k and wants some stuff cast up legally.
We won't find out for a year, so it's pure speculation
Also, while CHS probably can't comment on the details, legal filings which are part of the public record (e.g. PACER / LexisNexis) can be shared without much risk. In this case, they've simply stated who their counsel are. That is a matter of record that all interested parties are entitled to know as a matter of course.
____
Buzzsaw wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to make a very subtle point, or are just ignorant of the mechanisms of the American legal system. Presuming it's the latter (if it's the former I'm very curious as to your meaning), there are certain things I think we can reasonably infer:
1) The original legal work Chapterhouse had done was by "local counsel"; either a small firm or a solo, who gave them general guidelines,
2) If that's the case, such a firm would be very hard pressed to answer the extensive, federal matters that the current litigation presents,
3) Even if they were willing to, it must be realized that CH has "traded up" in almost every sense.
I dunno who gave the original opinions to CH (not does it matter), but Winston & Strawn is Big fish. As in, a 900 lawyer, multinational firm. As in $744 million in 2008 revenue. And CH is being represented by a partner at said firm.
I don't think that the real impact here may be quite clearly appreciated: previously, I think the best bet was that CH would have been lucky to have settled in such a way as to preserve some part of their business. That's not on the table anymore really, or at least not in any sort of worrisome way.
We're looking at the very real chance now of this case going to trial. And let me tell you, as an IP attorney, that's something that is going to worry GW's lawyers to a major degree.
The reason for that is that Intellectual Property is the only kind of property where you don't know what you have until you go to court.
Going before a judge means a very real chance that GW might not just lose this particular action, but they may have some of their terms simply stripped away; that is, that some of the things they claim as "their IP" simply goes away. Will this happen? I dunno. But it must be understood that in IP, when cases go to court, there is a real chance that the parties come out completely transformed.
Yeah, IP law is very interesting stuff, precisely because we're talking about pure thought.
Based on the Playmates case, I suspect that GW's model IP may be vastly weaker than they've been able get people to believe, but has been "protected" simply by virtue of everybody they challenge being smaller guys and unable to mount a proper legal defense. Kinda like how Monster Cable operates. If / when the curtain is pulled, the Wizard may turn out to be nothing but a little old man.
Should be interesting.
I've been checking Pacer about once a week for the past month. CHS's attorney has yet to file a Notice of Appearance, although she was probably just secured. However, the Answer is due late next week. The judge has a standing order for an in camera status conference to be held as well. I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall when the parties try to explain to him exactly what is going on and why...
If you read the firm's pro bono pledge, this just might have been the first opportunity this particular attorney had to do some pro bono work in her particular specialty. I would not imagine there are a lot of opportunities to do pro bono commercial or trademark litigation. Also, maybe she wants to write an article about some sort of esoteric point of law; or maybe she sees an opportunity to have her name associated with a new precedent or new interpretation on a point of law? Or maybe she doesn't like the attorneys on the other side? Who knows...
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Post by: Ketara
Eldanar wrote:Or maybe she doesn't like the attorneys on the other side? Who knows...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kilkrazy wrote:GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.
In general, one always prefers a settlement - cheaper and less risky. The only time to go to trial is if you want to make a point, or if the settlement demand is totally unrealistic.
____
filbert wrote:Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent?
I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.
If it goes to trial, it will most likely reinforce / extend / clarify existing precedents.
There is a lot of IP law out there, and from some perspectives (e.g. automotive / motorcycle automotive) GW is indeed on very shaky ground.
IMO, Polonius did a lot of good by bringing up the Playmates case as example. It is an excellent example, very close to the matter. Google the relevant Battletech and Playmates toys, while you read the ruling. Then think about a "Space Marine". Great stuff.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
I'm too lazy to go back through the thread, anyone have a link to the Playmates ruling?
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Post by: JSK-Fox
I still support GWS 100%.
A good analogy of what happened (as far as I can tell) is as follows.
Every company is a house, and all the bitz are dogs.
There is a park called "Generic Park" and that is where most of the bitz makers go with their dogs to walk them, and eventually, pee and leave turds.
This turd represents the customers who didn't appreciate the services.
What happened, is that chapterhouse's dog went up, treaded all over GWS's flower and vegetable garden, and left a big wet sloppy pile of turd on the doorstep.
So, Mr. GWS walks outside, and *SQUISH*.
He just got some customers who dislike him, even though the products they are complaining about are complaining about CH.
Uh oh.
So Mr. GWS knocks on the door of CH, and kindly asks, "Could you make sure your dog doesn't leave a turd on my doorstep?".
Mr. CH says, "No way! If it wants to do that, then it will do that."
Obviously, Mr. GWS is pissed, and sues Mr. CH for property damage.
Suddenly, everyone sides with Mr. CH, despite him letting his dog take turds on the aforementioned doorstep.
This makes no sense, now, does it?
Just think about that dog turd on the step the next time you put your money on CH.
Sorry to sound biased.
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Post by: Dysartes
JSK-Fox wrote:This makes no sense, now, does it?
You're right - that analogy didn't make any sense to me.
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Post by: Karon
So... CH making cool stuff for GW products is the equivalent of defecating on their doorstep.
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Post by: Amaya
JSK-Fox wrote:<snip>
You do realize that third party add ons to items are perfectly legal as long as they don't violate IP laws, don't you?
The issue is in the advertising and not the products.
The whole idea of GW going after CH for making products people use for GW units that don't have GW models makes about as much sense as GW going after the GI Joe jets some people used for Stormravens.
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Post by: Kroothawk
GW claims on their website that they have the right to sue everyone doing a private conversion of their models, they are just not enforcing that right currently. So who knows
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Post by: shrike
Kroothawk wrote:GW claims on their website that they have the right to sue everyone doing a private conversion of their models, they are just not enforcing that right currently. So who knows 
but basically every GW player has a conversion, every WD has a conversion in it that I can remember, and GW would lose 99.99999% of thier market because of it. I highly doub that that is a law, and I very highly doubt that GW would ever sue everyone.
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Post by: Captain Jack
The difference in this case is that those people are not selling them for profit as a buisness...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
God forbid that anyone should start a business selling stuff that people want. Has it really come to this?
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Post by: shrike
Kilkrazy wrote:God forbid that anyone should start a business selling stuff tat people want.
Has it really come to this?
short answer yes with an if, long answer no with a but.
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Post by: Captain Jack
To some extent, yes (tat it is too, very apt  ). It's a personal thing, I'll buy from sellers that come up with stuff that is new and unusual Maxmini is a good example, but what I hate is a manufacturer that is so devoid of artistic licence that they have to copy/use art /ideas of other manufacturers.
If this was Hasslefree being picked on by CHS, I'm sure feelings would be entirely different. Meh, until the case comes forward all of this is opiniion.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
A lot of Hasslefree's best figures are "inspired" by popular culture.
Aliens
Hot Fuzz
Shaun of the Dead
Scooby Doo
and so on.
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Post by: Captain Jack
True, but there aren't miniatures available for them, licenced or not. I know it's a fine line I am walking, but what I am most scared of if GW gets hung out to dry is crass companies like CHS cherry picking the big selling lines of smaller companies. Killing their ability to produce the cool individual stuff that may not sell so well, thus making us all poorer in choices.
I also really like HF's attitude, plus the majority of the other small manufacturers. CHS just sticks in my throat unfortunately, and I hope (for my own personal choices) that GW is vindicated thus protecting other (much smaller companies) from such poaching.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
JSK-Fox wrote:This turd represents the customers who didn't appreciate the services.
This makes no sense, now, does it?
Just think about that dog turd on the step the next time you put your money on CH.
Sorry to sound biased.
Seriously? That's what you're posting?
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Having digested quite a bit of information, I still think CH are in the wrong.
The whole Battletech thing appears only semi-relevant. It's one thing to have designs based/inspired by another's IP, but still quite another to refer to it using copyrighted terms. I reckon this case will go GW's way, and Chapterhouse whilst technically allowed to continue, just using different names, will go under due to the costs.
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Post by: Jon Garrett
JSK-Fox wrote:Stuff
That...really, really doesn't make any sense. I mean, seriously?
If you wanna use this example, which is madness, then both Games Workshop and Chapterhouse would be Dog Breeders. Games Workshop has managed to corner the market, and release what they want. If they don't have it, well tough. Go breed your own dog. Or there are a few other companies that sell cats, hamtsers and the occasional over sized rat that looks a lot like a dog, but isn't really. But another guy comes along, selling dogs he's bred. And selling types of dogs that GW aren't! Worse yet, they're compatible with Games Workshop dogs. I won't say how, because there are far too many creepy people on the 'net panting already. So GW goes over and says, 'Stop selling dogs. Shoot the dogs you own. Set fire to the kennels. Never say the word 'dog' again, for we own that word.'
And Chapterhouse looks blank and goes, 'What?' and summons a lawyer instead.
Of course, this is still a crap comparison. But it's better than protraying GW as some innocent person who kindly asked someone to stop doing something naughty and with much sadness taking futher action. While Chapterhouse may not be perfect in this argument, GW haven't exactly been playing nice either.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Erm....define how GW haven't played nice, seeing as how they have a credible claim to creating the very market they now dominate, and through hard graft at that....
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Post by: Ma55ter_fett
I really don't care, the gak slinging that is being done by the supporters of either side is getting old.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Ma55ter_fett wrote:I really don't care, the gak slinging that is being done by the supporters of either side is getting old.
QFFT.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Mr Mystery wrote:The whole Battletech thing appears only semi-relevant. It's one thing to have designs based/inspired by another's IP, but still quite another to refer to it using copyrighted terms. The Battletech v Playmates case is *very* relevant, because the case will likely delve into the copyrighted designs, GW claiming the designs are too similar to their IP. At which point, the BTvP case starts stripping away the GW designs based on the armoed "space knight" concept, and what GW has which is specifically protectable about their Space Marine vs Star Wars Stormtrooper, and every single other Sci Fi suit of armor, along with everybody else who uses big shoulderpads. Being "close" in general design isn't infringement. Based on the interface necessity, GW could easily find themselves in a Lego v BestLock situation, allowing someone to come in with 100% bit-compatible injected plastic Space Marines at a fraction of the price. That would be an absolute disaster for GW, but a tremendous win for the customer. GW is playing with fire, here. The term "Space Marine" cannot be copyrighted. It can be Trademarked, and that means that others can use the phrase for refererence purposes to ensure that people are referring to the correct thing. Also, GW didn't create the "toy soldiers" market - it existed long before GW ever got involved. If you track the evolution of wargames, GW is merely a very successful company. But they're not deserving of any magical protection for something they didn't actually do.
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Post by: Gridge
This isn't just about CH vs. GW. Precedence could be set here that effects the ability of companies large and small to keep their IP safe. Sorry, but CH clearly crossed a line with how they market their product. I understand the desire to root for the underdog...I do the same, but only when the underdog is actually in the right.
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Post by: Polonius
FASA is on point for one of the issues: copyright infringement. I mainly cited it to show that making "similar" products isn't always IP violation.
The more serious issue, IMO, is the use of trademarked phrases such as "Thousand Sons." At one point their website seemed to be selling actual "thousand sons" parts, not parts that can be used with Thousand Sons.
Now, given that a GW 1K sons is a complete model, and CH was selling shoulderpads, it's actually really possible that the trademark wouldn't be infringed, simply because they weren't selling the same thing! The law is unpredictable: a classic contracts case every student reads involves a sub shop in a strip mall that a clause making him the exclusibe sandwich shop for the plaza. A burrito place opens, he sues the landlord for breach, and loses because the court decides that a burrito isn't a sandwich.
The point is, GW has trademarks only to fairly specific things, some of which don't actually exist. For example, what exactly is trademarked by the term "Blood Ravens?"
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Post by: edweird
Let's be frank, CH makes conversion bits & minis that GW does not want to or currently does not sell. This idiotic law seems to center on the idea that only GW should be allowed to use GW related terminology on products. Apply this rationale to other industries, like aftermarket car parts. The purpose and lifeblood of the aftermarket maker is to promote and grow the symbiotic host via free advertisement and expanded possibilities. This being said GW should be much more warm to bits makers and extend a noncompete license agreement to end the uncomfortable word hockey that only serves to foster a negative public image of GW.
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Post by: Captain Jack
Quite unsurprisingly there is only a negative image because GW is silent on the issue, and we are only seeing supposition about intent/previous and what ever falls out from CHS. This argument is getting old, because it is just circling the drainhole without any new content.
For or against, I recon this should be dropped until there is some kind of ruling.
My last words on this, Jack, out.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I agree. We are going in circles now.
Locking thread.
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