Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Indeed. The context of 'pre-heresy' armour is GW's IP, as in terms of wargaming, pre-heresy is distinctly 40k.

I really don't mean to pick on you, but you should post "Disclaimer: I don't know anything about IP law" in every single one of your posts. Somebody might actually listen to something you say.

Thanks for bringing some reason into this thread.

Maybe you can answer a specific question that is relevant here:
GW claims to have either R, C, or TM on the word Tau (relevant as one walker was said to be used with Tau):
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=5
On the other hand I can't find any real reference to that IP protection (e.g. here http://www.warrealm.iwarp.com/ and here http://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/GWtm.html ) and remember that it was far too generic to be IP protected, therefore the name change to "Tau Empire". If they claim something false like that, is this illegal and would it have influence on the lawsuit?

Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.

Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.

All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.

And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

^^This would make me chuckle. Didn't know that 5th amendment didn't apply in civil matters.

Hands up if your head hurts!

Oddly this is much more on point than the GK rumor threads....now those are making my head hurt. This is merely entertaining.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

GW does indeed own IP on Salamanders, Eldar, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers etc. All of which CH had no hesitance in slapping on their products. If they hadn't done this, then fair enough. But they have. It's the same reason Ford cannot make a car, and call it an Impreza, and Subaru couldn't return the favour with a Focus of their own. They both make cars, they both have their own branding.

Triumph toledo / seat toledo your point was

Polonius wrote:Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.

Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.

All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.

And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.

If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?

And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?

Mr Mystery wrote:At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.

If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?

And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?

Quite the opposite. You can't copyright an idea, only it's expression. you can patent an idea, but only if it's useful. Trademarks are for names. So, GW can claim a trademark for their name for an advanced alien species. Which means that if you try to market advanced alien tech using the name Tau, you are using GW's IP. Keep in mind that this sort of nominal use is often legal.

EURGH! *head explodes*

Good lord this is confusing!

Mr Mystery wrote:EURGH! *head explodes*

Good lord this is confusing!

Yup - and this is why I'm trying to avoid making up my mind either way as to whether they're in the right or wrong, and merely concentrating on commenting upon this I can prove to be false (i.e., that certain items produced by CH are identical to items produced by GW).

Identical no, but very deliberately imitating.

Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.

Flashman wrote:Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.

well i think that EVERYBODY is right on this one - can we leave it there till the results come in? - my head is starting to ache now too... hahahaha

Well, if you read the other thread, I've actually found some statutes and case law on the subject. I mean, I have some legal training, but there are ways to actually predict the outcomes of litigation.

Of course there is Polonius.

Ask the Magic 8-Ball!

dietrich wrote:If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.

My money would totally be on Chapterhouse. I've never met the CH guys, but most of the GW staffers I know fit one or other of the geek stereotypes (skinny and unathletic or fat, beardy, and unathletic), whereas American wargamers I've met seem far more likely to be ex-Marines, or at least wrestled a little in high school.

Have you people seen the current pending news on the website- It shows a model they made that looks very similar to a Tyranid, and is blatantly described as being used as a Gribble, and they jokingly call it 'The doom of Chapterhouse'. Prehaps it will be.



Here it is in case it is removed soon:

One of the priviledges of running Chapterhouse is the ability to use the minis we create before anyone else can. This last Saturday I was able to put on the table our first alien mini with my tyranid army. I used him as a "Doom of Malantai (SP?)" I have to say it was akin to dropping a nuke on the board. His 6 inch aura ability is lethal when you couple it with a mycotic spore drop.

Production will begin this week, he is a our FIRST single piece pewter model which easily mounts on a 40 mm base (he has 2 tabs to mount in holes) and stands at 90 mm tall (without the base). Take a look below to see the painted version.

Witness "The Doom of Chapterhouse", hehe.

And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.



I do feel sorry for chapterhouse, but they did blatantly display GW CR stuff, and with GWs very strict take on this kind of stuff, I'm not suprised they sued. I think GW will win, but I don't necessarily want them to.

LittleLeadMen wrote:
You can use any/all tropes you want. The issue is when you sell items that are direct knock-offs of another company, or when you use their IP to sell your wares.

To my understanding "knock-offs" are copies of valuable products either made with inferior materials, or sold at a price that is not reflective of the actual esteem associated with the brand.

Chapterhouse doesn't copy GW products. They sell alternative sculpts that are closely associated with something very much like the GW universe, which is not a violation of any moral or legal principle that I'm aware of. You may as well be angry at companies that produce 3rd party Apple peripherals.

Chapterhouse has taken a set of tropes, those established in wargaming by GW, and produces models consistent with them.

LittleLeadMen wrote:
However, I would rather see companies produce their own models, games, backgrounds, etc.

Why do you have a preference at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:
And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

If the answer were something along the lines of "Because they're both science fiction models with an Asian aesthetic." or "Because they're both science fiction models." are any laws being explicitly violated, or is this something closer to a matter of judicial discretion?

I hope CH comes out of it well. They are beneficial to the greater hobby, the way some go on it's as if they are stealing food from the mouths of GW. If anything people have probably gone out and bought GW products just to make use of CH parts so it works both ways. GW have put together a questionable lawsuit and are using their typical bullying tactics to 'win' rather than presenting a reasonable case. It would be nice to see something turn out for the good of the hobby and not to suit GW's paranoid need to control customer choice. It's all about them needing to continually define "the hobby" as "the GW hobby" and keep a tight grip on everything therein, but wargaming and model making existed a long time before GW and will likely do so when they are gone, converting and kitbashing is "the hobby". This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true. What's closer to the truth is that very little will change either way regardless of the outcome of this case, other than the continued availability of CH products.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.

Noone has said that "CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!".

They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP.

It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit.

It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine".

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.

Noone has said that "CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!".

They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP.

It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit.

It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine".

You're conflating a few concepts. If CH wins, that means that what they did was OK. And only that. GW could immediatly refile if CH goes over the line even a little bit more.

Xerox is what is known as a potential genericized trademark, which means that it can be used without fear of dilution. Essentially the mark became so famous that it began to outgrow the niche it represents. Things like kleenex instead of facial tissue, chapstick instead of lip balm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark

Actually, the real generic trademarks are ones we dont' even think of. Things like Kerosene or Aspririn. Tehy are so generic now that anybody can sell "aspirin"

My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge

Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,

I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.

blackclaw1 wrote:My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge

Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,

I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.

Until a court has ruled on this civil matter, we can't say if they have or have not broken any of the numerous laws regarding Intellectual Property, trademarks or copyright, blackclaw1 - this is part of the reason theire's 40 pages of discussion regarding the matter across two threads at the moment, it isn't cut and dried.

First of lets make things clear. I have not bought any chapterhouse bits, nor do I intend to.
I play orks, and they don’t make anything I need.

A lot of comparisons have been made with car parts, and fish. So I’ll start with cars

Edelbrock Make parts for Chevy’s etc, and are advertised as such. They don’t seem to have a problem, GM seems ok with this.

The 1970s was a great time for British custom cars, ford was winning at rallying.
Had a good range of cars, And the best known in England was the escort.
This came in three versions 1100/1300, 1600 (Mexico), and RS1600 (race rally special)

There were visual differences between the models, the 1600 models had larger wheels and the RS had large flared arches. Both had a revised dash, (separate oil temp gauges etc).
So companies started producing spoilers, replacement dashboards and flared arch kits, some of which were direct copies of the ford product. (Talk about stealing someone’s IP).
Ford certainly had the funds to sue these people. But they didn’t.
WHY?
1 It would show ford in a bad light.
2 Most people couldn’t afford afford a RS 1600, so sales wouldn’t have improved.
3 They sold thousands of 1100/1300 escorts to people, who wanted to bolt these bits on.
Most of if not all of these kits mentioned ford/escort/RS1600/ in their advertising.
Most where sold as fitting the ford escort or make your escort look like a RS1600
Ford knew that it would be hard to prove there case. As saying something fits something else is fair use.

Now for the fishy bit

People have likened CH to a parasite fish the remora,
The relationship between shark and remora is more of a symbiotic one.
The remora does things for the shark it can’t do for it’s self.
Like cleaning its teeth and gills.
Maybe GW could learn something there

Oh and Thank you for your time in researching this Polonius. I have enjoyed your posts, most enlightening.

Hi all.
I think I may have found the crux of the problem.(I am not an IP lawyer but looked at the difference between chapterhouse and other companies NOT being sued...)
Lots of companies make ancillery and suplimentry products to be used with other companies products .They are not constantly being sued .

As far as I am aware GW is stating Chaptehouse is in breach or tradmark laws for using GW trademarks for 'advertising' chapterhouse products.(Paraphasing loads of lawyer speak.)

Where as Chapterhouse is claiming the use of tradmark to show intended use.

Using the 'body-kit' company relationship with car manufacturers listed above by Loki.

Speed Sports Body kits .
Give your car the look of a winning Rally car!
Our 'Rally Pack' will fit Ford Escort 1100,1300 and 1600.(The Ford Escort RS 2000 doesn't need it!)

This is fair use of trade mark to show intended use.

Where as
Ford RS 2000 Body kits.
The Ford RS 2000 body kits will for all type of Ford Escort Cars.

This is using Ford Trade Marks (Escort RS 2000) . And could imply Ford endorcement licence or even manufacture of the body kits!

Applied to the case in hand.(Just an example NOT based on any actual advert/web page.)

Chapterhouse 28mm Power Armour Shoulder pads.
Get the detail and depth of character you deserve on your minatures !
With this exelent range of Power Armour Shoulder Pads.
Suitable for use with most 28mm minatures, including Games Workshops 40k(tm) Space Marines(tm) , and Chaos Space Marines(tm).

This is a CLEAR case of using a trade mark to illustrate 'intended use'.As it used the trade marks to illustrate what the seller means by a '28mm minature'.By using a well known brand and atributing the trademark to the owning company.

Where as...

Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) Space Marine (tm) Shoulder Pads.
We have a wide range of Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space marine (tm) shoulder pads.
That cover all chapters listed in the Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) codexes.

This is NOT just using the trade mark to show intended use.It could cause the reader to think the product is lienced endorsed or even manufactured by GW , as it uses GW trade marks descriptions and terms in the advertising of the product.


Has this made the issue (as I see it) a bit clearer?

I would like BOTH parties to win , by GW letting Chapterhose continue to trade , and Chapterhouse showing more respect for GW trademarks and IP.

But I am reasonable like that ...

TTFN

I think Lanrak has explained one of the issues pretty well,based on my rough reading of the case law.

Kanluwen wrote:

Eldanar wrote:Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.

Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.

I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.

Except it's a terribly wrong analogy.

Microsoft was broken up because of packaging their browser and OS with computer bundles, and making it virtually impossible for the computers to run without them.

GW is not forcing you to play Warhammer or 40k or Lord of the Rings if you want to play a miniatures game.

This is more equivalent to the Xbox 360 v. PS3 v. Nintendo Wii. They're each completely separate systems, with completely different benefits.

Again:
There is no monopoly claim, at all, that is valid in this case. GW does not own the genre of "Tabletop Wargaming". They own Warhammer/40k/LOTR and the models/properties associated with those game systems and universes.

I was not trying to make a claim that there was any monopolistic practice involved here. Obviously, CH and Paulson Games have not yet filed a response, so we have no idea what they might claim. However, the point I was (very poorly) trying to make, that GW stifles and tries to utterly control 3d party business practices is valid. GW has a right to do this to a certain degree, and I respect GW's position. However, to my knowledge, GW has never won a case on the merits concerning its IP. Rather, GW uses its resources to outlast everyone it goes after, and/or to "punish" entities or people who do not adhere to its policies.

Some examples: removal of images from websites; no linking to the GW page from online sellers; restrictions on online sellers pricing; restrictions on BAM store's pricing; GW's noted history of "errors and gaffs" when opening a competing company store in an already existing market with independent retailers; quashing fanzines and fan-made movies, etc. There are probably several other instances as well that I have forgotten.

GW is a large corporate entity and it has basically been taking on small, independent operators; most of whom don't even have an accountant, much less an attorney, and are operating barely above the margins already. Most of these places cannot even afford the retainer fees for a good IP attorney. Add to this that GW has never had to win a case on the merits; all that GW has had to do is just file the Petition, request records, and take depositions. Typically, it's opponent has been worn out by then and is out of money, and is more than willing to settle.

These are similar tactics employed by Microsoft, generally speaking; and it was only after numerous complaints by would-be competitiors, providers and businesses that the Dept. of Justice moved to do something about it; and it was only after the DOJ threatened very strongly to enact anti-trust provisions that Microsoft agreed to "unpackage" its components and applications. (BTW, Microsoft was never broken up, it was only threatened with that action; however, my understanding is that it did have to stop exclusively bundling its products and services and allow 3d party products and services in as part of the agreement).

The analogy I was trying to make was toward the general corporate philosophy and general business practices; not on whether product A is analogous to product B.

given that the judge and the lawyers will be very amused in this case (what we're talking about? Miniatures??? representing aliens and strngely armoured guys???? You're kidding???)....

I hope CH wins ( but It will be difficult)...
I know control agencies have something more serious to do but we can say that GW is making a "dominant position abuse" cause they're using theyr control of the market to decide unilaterally prices. The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...

punkow wrote:The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...

Except restaurants tend to get pissy if you walk in with a carry out and sit down. Be it their tournament or store, it's their rules. Like wise, there is a difference between producing material for the game that is your own (say, a new race for instance) and using someone elses IP to make a quick buck.

The restaurants do not control the food market... You're not forced to go at tonio's restaurant if you wanna eat... but if you wanna play 40k you have to go to GW, and, in my opinion, if you wanna play a WARGAME you have to go to GW since WH40K and WHFB are today so relevant that GW substantially has the total control of the market...I obviously do not blame 'em for making such a successful product nor do I say they shouldn't gain from their IP ... but at least they should be forced to sell licenses to other producers, or naturally they will act as monopolist.

I think that CH wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand for products that GW do not make for its own marketing strategy. And even if GW obviously has the right to make its own strategy , It should be allowed to others to fill the "holes" and compete with the big GW... if not GW control prices as it wish and this isn't a good thing for the market...

Chapter house was in the wrong.

Actually CH is surely wrong... but I simply do not like the actual status... I hope that the sentence will change the actual status, forcing GW to "open the market"

Eldanar wrote: However, to my knowledge, GW has never won a case on the merits concerning its IP. Rather, GW uses its resources to outlast everyone it goes after, and/or to "punish" entities or people who do not adhere to its policies.

It's not a good example, but at one point I found a case where GW won against a guy duping minis in his basement. I'm not sure how that bad boy was appealed, but it was.

Simply put, as you stated, GW has never gone after any entity with the wherewithall to defend itself, so they usually just fold.

punkow wrote:The restaurants do not control the food market... You're not forced to go at tonio's restaurant if you wanna eat... but if you wanna play 40k you have to go to GW, and, in my opinion, if you wanna play a WARGAME you have to go to GW since WH40K and WHFB are today so relevant that GW substantially has the total control of the market...I obviously do not blame 'em for making such a successful product nor do I say they shouldn't gain from their IP ... but at least they should be forced to sell licenses to other producers, or naturally they will act as monopolist.

I think that CH wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand for products that GW do not make for its own marketing strategy. And even if GW obviously has the right to make its own strategy , It should be allowed to others to fill the "holes" and compete with the big GW... if not GW control prices as it wish and this isn't a good thing for the market...

If I want to eat a Chef's signature dish, I have to go to his restaurant. Hell, if I want a Big Mac, I have to go to McDonalds.

Why should they be forced to sell licenses for those things they produce themselves? RPG and PC Games are outsourced to those who know those markets better, likewise films now. Why should they have to split up their rights any further? Others ARE allowed to compete with GW, just not using GW's own IP.

I'm not meaning to single you out, but I really don't get the whole 'people should be allowed to use GW IP whenever' opinions. Not saying they're necessarily wrong either, I just don't get it.

Yeah, I'll never understand the "GW has a monopoly" argument. Yeah, only GW can sell, you know, GW products. And GW can tell you what you can and can't do in their stores. Aside from that, though, you can do whatever you want.

It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time.

Why should they be forced to sell licenses for those things they produce themselves? RPG and PC Games are outsourced to those who know those markets better, likewise films now. Why should they have to split up their rights any further? Others ARE allowed to compete with GW, just not using GW's own IP.

Yes it's right but what I'm saying is that others are not allowed to compete... Let's take a look at the wargame market...

It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time.

I really disagree... I think that even putting together all the other fantasy and sci-fi games you won't reach the size of the GW market...

There are historical wargames with a generally older audience that normally play with various miniatures that are not necessarily made all by the same company... There are minor Fantasy and Sci-Fi wargames like Confrontation or AT-43 that have a very small audience, made for the largest part of former or actual GW players that want to try other games.... and then there is GW! GW is the first company you will find when you start wargames. It's hard to find someone that didn't start wargaming with GW stuff... I do not know the share of the market but I'm pretty sure we're talking about 50% or more... In this situation GW uses its dominant position distorting the market... The fact that WH40K is so widely played inhibits the rise of other games (since new players will always start with a game others already play so they can find opponents).
This isn't necessarily negative: It means that GW products have been the best and won against other products... But in such a situation GW decides the prices, the release dates, often ruin the game balance to sell more minis (ehy Space wolves??? do you hear me???)....
It's a monopolist behaviour and I do not like it...
I think CH studios are wrong but I think that the simple existence of CH studios is a proof of the fact that GW has created something so great that a single company cannot satisfy all the demands (did you notice the increased relevance of forge world?)
I think this situation isn't good for us (players and customers) so I will be very happy of an innovative sentence changing the absolute grip of GW on the market of table top wargames

And... to makes things clear... I love GW.. I think that the game and the narration they created are wonderful, and that the Game designers deserve every cent they get... I'm a little unhappy with the marketing strategy their following and I'm sure that guys that decides this are not lovable nerds like us but managers that do not even imagine what is our passion... but now I risk to build a romantic-populist-communist-teaparty prosopopea so I quit

(not sure about the grammar.... aaaah nevermind)

Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't.

And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?

You even said it yourself, GW haven't achieved market dominance for nothing. They operate their own stores, nobody else does. That was a massive risk when they first went down that path, but it has paid off and handsomely. I'm certainly not aware of them doing a Microsoft and buyng out competitors just to take them out the market.

Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?

In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)

Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't.

They don't cause they do not need!! because there aren't competitors for the reasons I explained.
I think this is a dominant position... I'm not using this terms with their formal meaning in microeconomics so maybe I messed up things... sorry....
That said... do not get me wrong... I do not accuse GW of being a monster... I just think that if they had competitors, prices would lower and that, all in all, I do not think that this would have negative impact on GW... They will always keep their IP rights ( I do not say CH should keep doing what it does without PYING anything to GW) and the world of 40K would expand and become even better.
Btw let's see what the judge say...

Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?

In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)

I take it CH's use of IP and copyrighted terms (Tervigon, instead of say, Brood Bug) changes things for them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

punkow wrote:

Wrong. How do GW set the prices beyond their own? This would be a valid argument (in my opinion) if they used economoy of scale etc to produce models and games at a price newer companies cannot match. THAT is an abuse of position. But GW don't.

They don't cause they do not need!! because there aren't competitors for the reasons I explained.
I think this is a dominant position... I'm not using this terms with their formal meaning in microeconomics so maybe I messed up things... sorry....
That said... do not get me wrong... I do not accuse GW of being a monster... I just think that if they had competitors, prices would lower and that, all in all, I do not think that this would have negative impact on GW... They will always keep their IP rights ( I do not say CH should keep doing what it does without PYING anything to GW) and the world of 40K would expand and become even better.
Btw let's see what the judge say...

There are competitors though. PP, Mantic, FoW as already mentioned, plus dozens if not hundreds of competing manufacturers/rules sets. Gw have never taken steps to kill off opposition, beyond continued market dominance.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:And again, GW owns it's own IP, because they created it. How does demand for a specific model or conversion kit mean another company can come and fill in the gap using GW's sketches etc, without their permission?

In the US, the law allows you to use whateever you want to create your own product, as long as it's a unique creation by the end. In other words, it's totally legal to look at the sketch of the Doom, and use that to sculpt your own Alien Brain of Doom, as long as it's not "substantially similar" to the sketch. (see FASA v. Tomy)

I take it CH's use of IP and copyrighted terms (Tervigon, instead of say, Brood Bug) changes things for them?

Well, terms like Tervigon are trademarked, not copyrighted. And both are considered IP. Just to help clear that up.

The tervigon is a really, really grey area. It's not a registered trademark, only under common law. And GW has created a picture and a description/rules for the tervigon, but not the model. I doubt that's enough, but it's actually arguable that you can create a "Tervigon" model and market it as such.

If you're saying that they used the image GW created (the sketch) as the basis, that's also allowed, again, as long as the actual creation is not "substantially similar" Again, I'd recommend reading FASA v. Tomy http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-5.txt which does a really good job of demonstrating how copyright would apply to hobby products.

Marketing the brain bug as a "doom of malantai" might violate GW's trademarks. Marketing a model as a substitute for the Doom would be less likely to. Marketing the exact same model as the Alian Briain doom would not violate the trademarks. Copyright (for the image used) is still a factual issue, but if you read FASA v. Tomy it's really tough to succeed outside of direct copying.

Polonius wrote:
If you're saying that they used the image GW created (the sketch) as the basis, that's also allowed, again, as long as the actual creation is not "substantially similar" Again, I'd recommend reading FASA v. Tomy http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-5.txt which does a really good job of demonstrating how copyright would apply to hobby products.

Thank you for the explanation here. I assumed the sketch was a bit more 'powerful.'

@Polonius Just a quick question:

From what you have said in both threads then this is a case Not about what CH did then, but instead about what CH said about what they did?

I hope that Chapterhouse wins, for the sole reason that I hate GW for their douchebaggery. (edit by Manchu)

But Chapterhouse were arrogant the way they advertised, they tried in no way to hide that they were just making models based off of GW models, and even naming them the same thing.

Like someone said, they put shoulderpads as "Space Marine Shoulderpads" not "Shoulderpads that could be used for Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines"

Chapterhouse will lose, but I hope not.

Define 'faggotry'.

Because you know, you're not meant to break rule #1 etc.

Mr Mystery wrote:Define 'faggotry'.

Because you know, you're not meant to break rule #1 etc.

+1

Kandle wrote:@Polonius Just a quick question:

From what you have said in both threads then this is a case Not about what CH did then, but instead about what CH said about what they did?

It's about both. In my completely non-expert opinion, I think GW has a stronger, although certainly not unbeatable, case with regards to the use of trademarks.

There is pretty solid caselaw that would allow CHS to sculpt very similar looking products.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I think I may have found the crux of the problem.(I am not an IP lawyer but looked at the difference between chapterhouse and other companies NOT being sued...)
Lots of companies make ancillery and suplimentry products to be used with other companies products .They are not constantly being sued .

As far as I am aware GW is stating Chaptehouse is in breach or tradmark laws for using GW trademarks for 'advertising' chapterhouse products.(Paraphasing loads of lawyer speak.)

Where as Chapterhouse is claiming the use of tradmark to show intended use.

Using the 'body-kit' company relationship with car manufacturers listed above by Loki.

Speed Sports Body kits .
Give your car the look of a winning Rally car!
Our 'Rally Pack' will fit Ford Escort 1100,1300 and 1600.(The Ford Escort RS 2000 doesn't need it!)

This is fair use of trade mark to show intended use.

Where as
Ford RS 2000 Body kits.
The Ford RS 2000 body kits will for all type of Ford Escort Cars.

This is using Ford Trade Marks (Escort RS 2000) . And could imply Ford endorcement licence or even manufacture of the body kits!

Applied to the case in hand.(Just an example NOT based on any actual advert/web page.)

Chapterhouse 28mm Power Armour Shoulder pads.
Get the detail and depth of character you deserve on your minatures !
With this exelent range of Power Armour Shoulder Pads.
Suitable for use with most 28mm minatures, including Games Workshops 40k(tm) Space Marines(tm) , and Chaos Space Marines(tm).

This is a CLEAR case of using a trade mark to illustrate 'intended use'.As it used the trade marks to illustrate what the seller means by a '28mm minature'.By using a well known brand and atributing the trademark to the owning company.

Where as...

Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) Space Marine (tm) Shoulder Pads.
We have a wide range of Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space marine (tm) shoulder pads.
That cover all chapters listed in the Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) codexes.

This is NOT just using the trade mark to show intended use.It could cause the reader to think the product is lienced endorsed or even manufactured by GW , as it uses GW trade marks descriptions and terms in the advertising of the product.


Has this made the issue (as I see it) a bit clearer?

I would like BOTH parties to win , by GW letting Chapterhose continue to trade , and Chapterhouse showing more respect for GW trademarks and IP.

But I am reasonable like that ...

TTFN

The reason I used the mark 1 escort was because the kits where identical to the ford RS1600, having used the real car to make the moulds. (As people have suggested CH has done with shoulder pads and doors).
The real flares were steel and part of the wing.
The copies were fiberglass.
They avoided a court case by advertising them as replicas.
The later mk2 RS2000 fiberglass front was easy to spot. as the flute on the wing went the wrong way, and was a poor copy.

No particularly strong feelings either way. I voted for Chapterhouse, just because I prefer having a diversity of bitz suppliers, even if I opt not to use them.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, I'll never understand the "GW has a monopoly" argument. Yeah, only GW can sell, you know, GW products. And GW can tell you what you can and can't do in their stores. Aside from that, though, you can do whatever you want.

It's hard to argue any sort of monopoly when new companies enter the market as frequnetly as they do. Even if you restrict the market to scifi/fantasy miniatures wargaming, the market is pretty full of mid level players: PP, Reaper, Malifaux, the anime game. Add in FOW as a historical game that draws more from our market than the traditional historical market, and it's a pretty vibrant time.

It really depends on the parameters of how you define the "market" as to whether an entity has a monopoloy or not.

I actually went after my last post and looked up the definition of monopolization in Black's. The Sherman Antitrust Act defines monopolization as the power to fix or exclude competition, coupled with policies designed to use or preserve that power. Monopoly power can be defined as the power to fix prices, to exclude competitiors, or to control a market.

Just as people have been accusing CH of skirting the line over what is legal and what is not, I would argue that GW has done similar equivocal acts in setting internet sales prices, dictating the amount of discounting BAM stores can do, and squeezing out established BAM stores in established markets when they open new stores. How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?

Even though people have correctly pointed out that there are numerous other gaming companies and gaming systems, I would like to see a comparison of relative market share, to see just how much of the miniature/gaming market GW actually controls. My guess is that it would be substantial. Even if it is only say 40% of the world or a specific geographic region's market, if the next largest competitior is only 5%...well, that is a significant amount of difference in relative market share and power.

Anecdotally, you can just go to Ebay and look at the number of GW auctions there are compared to the number of other manufacturer's miniatures and gaming systems auctions.

Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?

I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.

How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?

GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole "GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.

Internet stores on the other hand... are the biggest threat to an indy shop. They cost a fraction of what a B+M store takes to start up so has a much higher and quicker return on investment than a B+M shop, costs a fraction of what a B+M store takes to maintain, has less employees to pay and insure, has little to no property tax to pay compared to an indy shop that has to pay rent or the mortgage and utilities. Because of that vast difference in overhead costs, that internt vendor can then pass on all that savings onto the customer and sell at a deeper discount then the LGS, but still make a profit. And they are always open and convenient to a customer, being that they are just a click away.

I work for a small business(not gaming related, but same issues) and I can tell you from first hand experience that internet vendors are the biggest impediment to a small, family owned business. I can offer better customer service, a friendlier atmosphere, and hands on knowledge of the products that I sell, but I cannot make a profit at the prices my online competitors are able to sell the same things for. The American consumer, despite stereotypes to the contrary, loves saving money and now even moreso since the recession, and we damn near all have internet access. Its a no-brainer that they'll prefer to shop from the convenience of their homes while saving money. Its a 1,2 punch thats knocking alot of businesses out.

I applaud GWs decision to make online vendors have a B+M base, and wish more big companies would do the same.

Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.

Legally CH should loose as it's bladantly using someone else's trademarks to sell stuff. However Chapterhouse doesnt seem to be making any alternative sets. If anything they're generating sales for GW as they only sell conversion sets, which prompts the average consumer to purchase the sets from GW.

Eldanar wrote:Just as people have been accusing CH of skirting the line over what is legal and what is not, I would argue that GW has done similar equivocal acts in setting internet sales prices, dictating the amount of discounting BAM stores can do, and squeezing out established BAM stores in established markets when they open new stores.

All of which only affect their own product range.

How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?

And in how many cases was that because they based their entire business on selling one particular company's range of product?

Specialisation has it's risks. It also sometimes has specific advantages. But the fact that some businesses choose to specialise in one company's product does not mean that company has a monopoly on the market.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NELS1031 wrote: Its a no-brainer that they'll prefer to shop from the convenience of their homes while saving money. Its a 1,2 punch thats knocking alot of businesses out.

Which makes it all the more puzzling why more small businesses don't try to harness the online market.

I think it's hard to argue that GW can exlude competition or fix prices, when new companies appear regularly. Look at Mantic: they produce similar goods at a lower price.

God I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out =) Now there is an army of fanatical zealots if I ever saw one would proberly make BA look like a bunch of girly men.

Yeah "I don't like the other miniatures companies" is not the same thing as "GW is the only miniatures company that matters" - the fact that some guy in his basement can crank out a ruleset and sell some resin on the internet pretty effectively demonstrates GW's lack of a monopoly. Compare GW to, say, your power company, and it should put things into perspective.

Now GW might ignore other competitor's contributions to the market when they decide how much they are going to sell a box for, effectively meaning the follow monopolist pricing practices, but that is not the same thing, and I think most people here that think GW has a monopoly are conflating the two concepts. GW does not lower the price of a box of Black Templar because Privateer Press made models of some armored guys with swords and guns, but that doesn't mean that PP is not also a miniatures/wargames/RPG license/etc. company.

The analogy of comparing GW to a power company regarding monopolistic practices is a non-equivocation on two parts. First, the power company is probably a legal monopoly. Second, the definition of a monopoly does not necessarilly have to entail complete and utter control and domination of a particular market; it only has to entail enough economic clout to be able to set and dictate prices in a market.

Once again, I am not saying that GW is a monopoly. First off, we do not have enough information on the Miniature-Wargaming market in general to know what GW's clout is. Second, I highly doubt they are anyhow. However, GW has engaged in monopolistic practices.

Also, I am not saying that some of GW's rationales for why it enacted some of its sales rules don't have a legitimate basis. Most playeras need a BAM store in order to play and socialize, and if the internet-only operators were hurting them, then that was a problem that needed to be addressed. However, GW could have addressed it a different way than by the blanket, "Sell at the price we dictate or else." GW could have just required that every store that has an account with it maintain an actual retail location with X number of tables and X number of gaming hours available to customers.

I have been in this hobby for almost 20 years, and this is not the first time I have seen GW go after a competitor and basically crush them. I also remember the period from before GW went public; some things are better now and some things are worse.

And too, I think that CH has engaged in some dicey business practices. However, as long as they are producing items that GW does not produce, and they are clearly identifying their products as 3d party after-production original casts, I don't have a problem with it.

I merely wanted to point out that GW's collective hands are not necessarily clean in its business practices. And as much as we want to speculate on GW's motives in the suit, and what it's actual goals are, and whether it is merely trying to force a settlement, or otherwise; I have a feeling, based on GW's modus operandi and past history, that it's ultimate goal is to drive CH out of business. And that sends a chilling effect across all of the 3d party after-production market.

Hi Eldanar.
I agree that GW is and has never been 'whiter than white'.
However, I dont think its in GW interest to drive CH out of buisness,but just to protect its trademarks.

The 3rd party after production market will continue to thrive , as long as it plays safe with other companies trade marks...

TTFN

Lokirfellheart wrote:And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

Identical?
Umm, have you seen a Zoanthrope while you are sober?

Again, if GW loses, they may raise prices on those kits you would need.
Think about the models.
CH doesn't send you the plastic crack you desire - GW does.
So, remember who gives you the plascrack, and who doesn't.
I'm glad if you read this.

And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

NELS1031 wrote:

Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?

I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.

How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?

GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole "GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.

Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.

Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.

Cheers

Andrew

Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.

JSK-Fox wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.

Dream on

Well just in case I have just placed my first order with Chaperhouse. So this week its G.W 0 - C.H 1 as far as my pocket money is concerned!
I have ordered me 4 sets of the Ymgarl Heads as I really want to use them on my own alien race. I would suggest that anyone thinking of placing a order with them do it now. You never know wha might happen and it's better to get the stuff before its to late.
Also I just checked out the C.H terms of service, seems they are only to happy to help G.W really.

Chapterhouse Studios is a trademark of Chapterhouse Studios LLC

Chapterhouse Studios uses the following trademarked terms for descriptive purposes only in Good Faith.
Chapterhouse Studios states that our use of the trademarked terms listed below in our product descriptions constitutes fair use and nominative use and is in no way to offer confusion that Chapterhouse Studios and any of the following noted trademark holders are related companies, nor do we state that we are endorsed by these trademark holders. We are an AFTERMARKET company acting in GOOD FAITH in providing high quality products to loyal customers who have already purchased products related to these trademarks. Chapterhouse Studios is actually providing these trademark holders a venue of free advertising and indirectly provide these trademark holders with more sales leads.
Warhammer 40,000 and Space Marines is a trademark of Games Workshop LLC



Copyright © 2000-2009 Chapterhouse Studios LLC. All rights reserved.

JSK-Fox wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.

LOL!

Seriously, why on Earth would you ever think that?

AndrewC wrote:

NELS1031 wrote:

Eldanar wrote: How many internet sales stores went out of business because of GW's internet sales policy?

I'm extremely biased in this regard, but I hope all of them.

How can you lament the plight of BAM stores and internet stores in the same statement?

GW stores sell at regular retail, and also only have one product range(The GW Hobby). A BAM has that same product range as well as a stable of others at a discount. If an indy shop goes out of business when a GW store opens up shop down the street, it was doing something wrong to begin with. If an established market jumps ship to a more expensive store, that indy shop and its owner has no business... being in business. I don't buy the whole "GW put our local hobby shop out of business" thing. I have 2 shops down the street from me that each only sell one of particular brand and they have never been a legit competitor to my place.

Sorry about the off topic rant and hope it didn't come off as condenscending or preachy, Eldanar, but I just can't agree with your statements about GW's treatment of indy shops and internet vendors.

Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.

Cheers

Andrew

Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.

Cheers

Andrew

Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.

I'd prefer GW comes out on top because I've never been a fan of Chapterhouse's goods, the quality just doesn't seem to be that good. That and from what I've seen the Chapterhouse people aren't the friendliest lot when it come to people criticizing their products. Also they were silly enough to blatantly name sections of their bits based off the Chapters they were created for.

Neconilis wrote:

JSK-Fox wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

Well, not for a while at least.
Hell, they might go down as a showing of good will to those who supported them.

LOL!

Seriously, why on Earth would you ever think that?

Delusion.

Boomer wrote:

Chapterhouse Studios is a trademark of Chapterhouse Studios LLC

Chapterhouse Studios uses the following trademarked terms for descriptive purposes only in Good Faith.
Chapterhouse Studios states that our use of the trademarked terms listed below in our product descriptions constitutes fair use and nominative use and is in no way to offer confusion that Chapterhouse Studios and any of the following noted trademark holders are related companies, nor do we state that we are endorsed by these trademark holders. We are an AFTERMARKET company acting in GOOD FAITH in providing high quality products to loyal customers who have already purchased products related to these trademarks. Chapterhouse Studios is actually providing these trademark holders a venue of free advertising and indirectly provide these trademark holders with more sales leads.
Warhammer 40,000 and Space Marines is a trademark of Games Workshop LLC



Copyright © 2000-2009 Chapterhouse Studios LLC. All rights reserved.

high quality products

HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS

Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.

Is it the sculpt or the cast you are complaining about there?

BrotherStynier wrote:
high quality products

HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS

Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.

Well I will be able to tell when I get my order.
I have to say placing and paying for my order was easy and straight forward. So thats a good point right there. But they said that shipping was $5 but once i had placed my order it was $6. Now I know this is not alot really because they are shipping from the US to the UK. But that information should be right. Now depending on the speed of delivery and the quality of the product will mean if i order for them again. I will post again when I get my stuff. But i do have say if i thought the product was going to be low quality then i woundnt buy it im not stupid £18 for 24 mini heads is not cheap.

Also I love games workshop I really do, but Im little shocked by the general outcry against C.H here on the this thread. I would expect this on Whineseer do not really here. It's quite hostile.
I don't have any connection to C.H but they do seem like a tiny group of people who are only trying to provide a much wanted service to a small niche hobby not a money grabbing company G.W appear to be. I remember the outcry when G.W stopped doing a bitz service. For some it ruined the hobby. For me it made converting harder. But since then there have been several cool small compaines pop up and not only too fill the gap but really provide a even better service than when G.W did it. If G.W win this then I don't what the result for C.H will be but i hope it will not kill of this kind of service becuase for some like me converting and scatch building is almost a hobby in itself. And i was stand up for the underdog so I will throw my support in C.H's direction.

In an ideal scenario, GW would win, but would not stomp CH.

Hopefully GW isn't too defensive and decise to keep CH as is, just with some renaming on some products done (as someone mentioned earlier "28mm power armour shoulder pads")

Hell, GW could even attempt to buy into CH. Have them as a seperate company, but in a way that they are working with them. So GW want some new heads and/or shoulder pads to coincide with say, the new WHFB Orcs release. Instead of focussing on the little parts, they can ask CH to churn out a few, whilst they get on with the boxed sets and whatever.



Long story short, I'm voting GW, but hoping that they ease off on CH.

S_P

well this one looks like it is sorted people whant chapterhouse because it is the bigger company and can defend itself what if they could all get along and work for the greater good of 40K

BrotherStynier wrote:Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.

I am not laughing, I just made another order, and not to save money, but for the quality.

I want GW to win.

Why? Pretty simple, it may act as a case which opens the door for other more unscrupulous instances where cheap counterfiet knockoffs and improper use of tradmarks, along with breaches of copyright may utilize to become more commonplace.

It's really in my opinion a bit like the little boy with his finger in the dam.

Well, I've never gotten anything from CH, but I fail to see how CH broke the law. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know the terms & conditions, but why CH? There are a lot of other companies to sue. They give them different names and say "they look good on GW's X models". They're not taking credit for GW's stuff or making copies or anything.
I'm gonna get CH's heresy-era JP's, so I hope they don't close.

I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.

Mr Mystery wrote:Is it the sculpt or the cast you are complaining about there?

I don't like their sculpts but I haven't seen any complaining that the quality isn't there.

I've seen plenty of people complaining about the quality of FW models.

Anyone used to resin casting knows that resin models are prone to a number of faults that are not found in an injection kit of standard quality.

NELS1031 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.

Cheers

Andrew

Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.

I live in a place in Maryland where there were around 5 GWs within a half hour, including a bunker and Indy shops always had GW stuff in stock since I've been in the hobby. In fact, I got into the hobby from Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie back in the day and it is still there, whereas the closest GW stores are leaving because of rent costs/HQ moving. I think you've been misinformed, AndrewC.

QFT. Wargames Emporium in Sheffield is just 10 minutes walk away from the nearest GW, has a permanent 10% discount on the GW stuff and has been around for 15 years.

Kilkrazy wrote:I've seen plenty of people complaining about the quality of FW models.

Anyone used to resin casting knows that resin models are prone to a number of faults that are not found in an injection kit of standard quality.

I don't know anyone that's complained about the quality of the sculpting on FW models, regardless of casting issues and mold wear. The casting process would have to somehow improve the sculpt of CH models for me to consider them in the same ballpark.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.

Then we can compare our results: Also ordered a conversion, just to add variety to my two Russian ones (CH's will become the HQ Tervigon).

yeah,
voted GW.

IMO, Chapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.

Panic.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.

Then we can compare our results: Also ordered a conversion, just to add variety to my two Russian ones (CH's will become the HQ Tervigon).

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in this I'll post the condition of my Ymargl heads when I get them, which should be any day now since I got the email that they shipped some time around Tuesday.

I always wonder if the people who say our stuff is crap have ever actually seen it in person. Or are they just jumping on the bandwagon and repeating what they here.

My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.



Granted the pictures on our site need to be better to showcase our products.

Holdenstein wrote:

NELS1031 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

Sorry to cut out some of your post, but I believe GW normally stops its supply to the independent stores in the area prior to opening its' own shop, so that there is no competition.

Cheers

Andrew

Now that you mention it, I realised there's not a legitimate Indy store within a good two miles of any GW Gaming Center. I say legitimate because I see alot of stores that keep GW products (and some casted counterfeits) behind counters.

I live in a place in Maryland where there were around 5 GWs within a half hour, including a bunker and Indy shops always had GW stuff in stock since I've been in the hobby. In fact, I got into the hobby from Games and Stuff in Glen Burnie back in the day and it is still there, whereas the closest GW stores are leaving because of rent costs/HQ moving. I think you've been misinformed, AndrewC.

QFT. Wargames Emporium in Sheffield is just 10 minutes walk away from the nearest GW, has a permanent 10% discount on the GW stuff and has been around for 15 years.

Just to re-emphasise, Gamer's World in Dublin is literally just round the corner from GW Liffey Street, Ireland's main GW store.

I had intended to write an eloquently worded post as to why I was in hopes of an CH victory...but I thought to myself.."Why be a hypocrite".

Honestly...I want to see GW take a shot in the pills.

The "IP" that GW so viciously protects,in many cases,is simply someone else's "IP" that GW has slightly altered and slapped their "trademark"on...so yes,I do hope CH wins.

Cant GW just buy out Chapter House studios and sell the awesome shoulder pads and stuff for themselves?

I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink

Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540

So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.

Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.

I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.

CasaHouse wrote:I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink

Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540

So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.

Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.

I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.

First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

CasaHouse wrote:
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way.

Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for.

May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means.

I hope GW wins. Though I like some of the stuff made by ChapterHouse and own one of the Tau Titans that I got from them, I have always felt they treaded too close to GW products and goods. If they wanted to prove that they weren't stealing from GW, maybe they could come up with some of their own range of models, rules and the like that the pads fit on.

I got into and still play a GW game system because of the style, look, and playability of their games. CH is trying to steal the style and look without putting in the effort of developing their own "brand".

I am all for the little guy trying to make a living, and I don't really see how CH is bitting too deep into GWs pockets, but lets get serious.

Lastly I'd like to see the Judge tell GW that they should protect their IP better by not putting out ugly models I'm looking at you stormraven.

Skartooth wrote:Cant GW just buy out Chapter House studios and sell the awesome shoulder pads and stuff for themselves?

Because the sculpter is using his elbows instead of his hands to hold his sculpting tools with. I hate to say it, but if GW goes down (ie the market gets flooded with cheep garbage or whatever) then the main feeder into wargames goes with it. Taking along with all the people who could get bored of 40k or just try other stuff. It means an end to all of the great inovation (malifaux, infinity etc) that is going on off the back of the money coming into wargaming. Does anyone remember going into a club more than 10 years ago, and thinking 'where are my peers'?

Of course CHS isn't going to acomplish this on its own, but if it sets a precident for poor knockoffs then where do we stand? Yes that is a bit of a moral rather than legal rant, but until the courts decide we're stuck looking into the void. If it happens to GW, then it will happen to PP because IP and Copyright are either going to be worthless or the legal side of keeping oiks off IP is gonna cost a rediculous amount. Scaremongering on - Which company is it going to be next, eh?

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

If this is true (you saying your not trolling) then I do appologize. I dont think you can blame my reaction if you have read any of the "trolling" post on frothers.

I am referring to GWs known record of sending out tons of C&Ds to anyone and everyone, I think that is pretty much public knowledge, not referring to any actions they have had with my company.

He he he, he said Stormravennnn

Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch,

Chapterhousestudios

Reply with quote

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP


Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW?

Captain Jack wrote:He he he, he said Stormravennnn

Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch,

Chapterhousestudios

Reply with quote

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP


Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW?

Platuan4th wrote:

CasaHouse wrote:
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way.

Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for.

May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means.

Since CHS doesn't directly copy(ie. reproduce) anything GW actually makes themselves, the bold refers to you, too.

Also why repost this after someone posted it not even 10 posts ago?

Ummm, because I was composing while others were posting, have a look at where my post starts. Look, CHS is acting strange (I'll keep it clean) in the fact that it is ok to sell stuff clearly based on someone elses ideas, but doesn't like his nose tweaked when it is pointed out. Have a look at other threads, on other forums, this is not just a problem here ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5209543&postcount=42 ) . As I stated before, until there is a ruling we don't know what the fallout of this is. Stuff the dictionary, because there is a language and law gap between countries, which is why these threads go so long. What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?

Captain Jack wrote:What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?

Probably the same as it does today. See China and Mexico and the KO toys they make and sell across the globe. See the internet and the rampant piracy that exists on it as we speak. It's far from the "end of the world" scenario you're painting it to be.

And that make it right how?

yah im changing my mind because chapterhouse is so brazenly going on about c&d forms ONLINE whilst still selling GW related stuff its not right :(

There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.

Aduro wrote:There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.

The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.

The wheel on this thread turns again

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

I do not see your logic that a company who produces something that no one else does is going to set precedent that will cause the downfall of an industry. If in fact CH wins this lawsuit then the only precedent that will be set is that companies can continue to create products that are not being produced by other companies. Your statement is nothing but doomsday grandstanding and is completely illogical and truly not appreciated as all it actually accomplishes is adding fuel to a fire that should never have even been lit in the first place.

The whole argument of IP infringement in this case is foolish. CH produces a product that is able to be used to make a GW product more individualized. Said product is not able to be used by itself. It requires the purchase of a GW product to be used in the first place. GW is NOT producing anything close to the desired range of product that they strive to invent with all of their fluff. The existence of CH and others like them are due to this fact. GW creates a demand and then refuses to meet said demand. The reason for GW's lack of support does not matter.

CH and several others have done items that I feel are the reason for their troubles. CH created a mycetic spore. This is not an item that is intended to modify, but to replace an item that GW does not currently, but may produce. This is ,as I see it, the only actual product that is an issue. Every other item, including the walker tank that looks Tau-like, is not a challenge to GW's bottom line.

I believe that CH and all the other 3rd party companies have a place in the hobby. I feel that the community is a richer one with these companies and the items that they produce. I feel that they need to understand the limits of what they are able to produce so as not to challenge the companies that they rely on to exist on the first place.

So my vote is that I hope CH wins with conditions. This will set the precedent that everyone is seeking and it wont kill a company in the process. I think that this could be accomplished if GW is willing to deal and CH is willing to limit its stock.

Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse? If you want Chapterhouse to lose and go out of business, does that mean you want all these other companies to die as well?




















Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Jack wrote:

The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.

The wheel on this thread turns again

Seriously? Have you not Looked at Maxmini's shop? These first two pictures I just posted are from their store. You can't honestly tell me those are not copied from GW's IP can you?

This makes for interesting reading, if you're bothered. Yoinked from another forum http://www.starshipmodeler.com/faq_view.cfm?ID_Num=39

Interesting, I'm getting there with all the different views and opinions, even if I don't agree.

Edit:

To the above, yes. However you are missing the point in that they are generic in their shape and naming. Yes AoW is sailing close to the wind with the Daemon, but it's not called a Bloodletter is it? Fantasy is fantasy, Gamezone also do generic fantasy minis that are not apeing GW IP and a Chaos Rider is a generic term. Salamander Space marine is very specific. The Scibor stuff is also not a direct copy of artwork , the syle is similar but no back pack and the details are sufficiently different.

There wouldn't have been all this fuss if CHS had gone the same way. Again, I hope that this case gets sorted in court sooner rather than later, whichever way it goes.

How are those anything other than generic? GW doesn't have a claim to 'owning' dwarves or centaurs any less than Tolkein...

I voted CH loud and proud.

Why?

I don't see them doing anything illegal. They may have done some stupid things, but nothing illegal.

I am not familiar with the law pertaining to the matter at hand here, so this is just my opinion.

Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?

These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.

Panic wrote:yeah,
voted GW.
IMO, Crapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.
Panic.

Chapterhouse wrote:My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.

Guess, panic was blinded by the awesomeness of these high quality GW sculpts:

I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thorgut wrote:

Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?

These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.

So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.

I want to hurt whoever sculpted the minotaurs. So stupid...

And the 'Eavy Metal team can't even fill in the gaps in the arms on those Catachan models, lol...they fit that poorly.

Aduro wrote:So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.

Considering that was my first post on the subject, I'm surprised you stated "like [you] said".
No, I don't require a company to lie. Companies like Max Mini, for instance, don't explicitly state that their parts aren't made for GW models.
However, they don't throw GW trademarks all over their site and there's absolutely no chance people will mistake them for official GW merchandise. If they called what are clearly Ork heads "Freeboota 40K Ork heads", then there might be an issue.

It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Sorry but some people really don't know that Chapterhouse might of not intended for it to look like that. Sometimes modelling accidents happen. But in all seriousness, the creator of Starship Troopers should be sueing GW for taking their style for the Cadians as they look very similar. That is what GW is claimed.
It looks too similar to what Chapter House is making, and GW thinks they own this style for the tau. GW may say they can copyright a style. But that also means that GW would be shooting itself in the foot, as other major companies could make a lawsuit upon GW for the styles it has taken.
I am proud that I voted for Chapterhouse, because GW and Forgeworld make too much money already and they keep jacking up the prices, and also the fact that they don't have all the things the customers want. Next GW will be targeting Paper made models and sueing other small companies.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.

And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.

Hi all.
People can make suplimentary products to be used with other companies products.

AND they CAN use trademarks to show intended use.

EG
Chapterhouse Studio shoulder pads are designed to fit on 28mm infantry in power armour.
Including Games Workshops Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space Marine(tm) minatures.

This is a CLEAR case of using a trademark,( atrubted to its owner ), to show intended use.


But calling the product
40k (tm)Space Marine(tm) shoulder pads .
Could be seen as using another companies trademarks to advertise/market them.

I also hope this can be resolved out of court , and allow CHS to continue to trade.

TTFN

I checked the mail and those aforementioned Ymargl heads I ordered came in today. They showed up in a little plastic baggie inside a bubble wrap envelope. There's some flash and mold lines, but nothing particularly terrible or more than what I find on my GW or PP figs, and no divots mismolded areas. Couple dry fits on a genestealer body and they match up perfectly. Can't speak to their resin stuff, but the quality of their pewter is just as good as anything else I've gotten.

Group shot of all 12 heads, followed by an unflattering shot of the two I singled out for having the worst flash.

Aduro wrote:I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!

Was intentional, as I only included the newest models of units in current army books (although I DID search for the last metal Possessed), didn't want to be unfair and include old stuff.

Kroothawk wrote:

Aduro wrote:I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!

Was intentional, as I only included the newest models of units in current army books (although I DID search for the last metal Possessed), didn't want to be unfair and include old stuff.

Not to be inflammatory or continue the off topic stuff, but how about comparing like products to like products? Take for instance, the pic that the Chapterhouse guy posted a page or two back and compare their Salamander shoulder pads to the FW ones. Can you not see a vast difference in scuplting ability? Line up most of chapterhouses stuff against what GW already makes and its the same story.

With that said, I honestly think that Chapterhouse makes some honestly nice looking stuff, but they, in my opinion, have more misses then hits.

Chapterhouse wrote:I always wonder if the people who say our stuff is crap have ever actually seen it in person. Or are they just jumping on the bandwagon and repeating what they here.

My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.

What bandwagon? What are you talking about? I'm basing my opinion on the pictures of soft edged plasticine that most of your product seems to be sculpted out of. Do you want me to buy some of your product so I can legitimately decide if it's amateur hour?

Maybe the judges at BOLScon decided it was nice conversion work done by an enthusiastic hobbyist. That's not the same as professional quality sculpting.

What bandwagon? What are you talking about?

I thought the same thing myself. The poll is 60-40 in his favor, if anything the bandwagon is in chapterhouses favor.

Weird statement.

Your free to say what you want, I just wish more people based opinions off of actually seeing the products in person, not off of a photo of a 4-5 mm product.

Chapterhouse wrote:Your free to say what you want, I just wish more people based opinions off of actually seeing the products in person, not off of a photo of a 4-5 mm product.

I have seen some of your product in person(even purchased some) and stand by my statements, the good and bad ones. Nothing wrong with being in the minor leagues if it puts food on the table.

I would like to say that a CH salamander army is one of the best looking things I have seen. The stuff I have seen has been top notch, however I have not actually purchased any of their product.

Mr Mystery wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.

And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.

Except when people go into the shop and ask for a HOOVER with one of those vortex things

Aduro:

I'm curious as to who made that Doom...er...whatever it is?

That is the one thing I have gleaned from all of these posts, is the existence of some really good 3d party manufacturers whom I did not know exhisted previously.

I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00

I'm sure you contacted Nick about the problems right? And do you have pictures of these?

I wish I had a camera...I might go borrow a friends and take some pics and post them, I think my local hobby shop has a camera...I'll try and get them posted tomorrow, in the process of moving as well..so it's a bit hectic...but I will do my best to get them taken and posted tomorrow

And I did send in a message to CH just a few minutes ago about recieving the wrong parts and the flaws, my friend told me not to worry about it, but hell you might as well get what you origionally wanted

Mr Mystery wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.

And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.

Thing is, chapter upgrades and the like tend to need to mention the actual trademark for them to tell you what they're intended for, or we just get more "drop with cog/sawblade" descriptions, or "Fire breathing Dragon shoulderpads for Space Paladins". GW also holds ALOT of trademarks, moreso than most other companies, so alot of tank ugprades will also have to change their names around alot. I say if they're not actually saying "GW related PRODUCTS SOLD HERE" then they should win (even if legally they'll loose due to violating something else).

GW: because it is basic leaching off another companys product to sell your own.

Eldanar wrote:I'm curious as to who made that Doom...er...whatever it is?

The Alien Larva Brain is done by Trollforged: http://trollforged.com/shelf_sci-fi_Aliens.html

It is an updated version of the following Trollforged Alien Brains:



And here is what I made from CH bitz and a 2nd edition Hive Tyrant, my new Alpha Warrior (left):

WillyBRags wrote:I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00

Aduro wrote: I'm sure you contacted Nick about the problems right? And do you have pictures of these?

WillyBRags wrote:I wish I had a camera...I might go borrow a friends and take some pics and post them, I think my local hobby shop has a camera...I'll try and get them posted tomorrow, in the process of moving as well..so it's a bit hectic...but I will do my best to get them taken and posted tomorrow

And I did send in a message to CH just a few minutes ago about recieving the wrong parts and the flaws, my friend told me not to worry about it, but hell you might as well get what you origionally wanted

Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.

I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.

So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.

For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).

I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.

His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.

"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"

Chapterhouse wrote:His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.

"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"

What what I see you post on these forums, your customer service *DOES* suck. You are highly defensive and attack anyone who doesn't praise your product blindly. It is not unreasonable for people to expect the right product and for resin parts to be inspected and free of serious flaws or even minor ones. Your constant attacks on customers is poor customer service in my opinion.

You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)

I hear way to many excuses from small business companies as if consumers shouldn't expect a well-handled, timely and accurate transaction because of 'whatever' reason. Other small companies do it and I will judge all companies accordingly.

Blasting his email complaint to your company on the Internetz is *NOT PROFESSIONAL*. Apologizing and taking care of his needs without the need to attack him, smear him or bully him in a public forum *IS* professional. If you handled his needs in a professional way I suspect he would post a positive experience on the forums and you would look all the better for it. Guess what? Consumers can do just about anything they want to your company and complain about it and you pretty much have to suck it up and let your excellent product and service speak for itself.

(I do like the veiled threats that you will now treat him poorly as a customer because he dare complain about your service and product. Very nice touch.)

nkelsch wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.

"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"

What what I see you post on these forums, your customer service *DOES* suck. You are highly defensive and attack anyone who doesn't praise your product blindly. It is not unreasonable for people to expect the right product and for resin parts to be inspected and free of serious flaws or even minor ones. Your constant attacks on customers is poor customer service in my opinion.

You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)

I hear way to many excuses from small business companies as if consumers shouldn't expect a well-handled, timely and accurate transaction because of 'whatever' reason. Other small companies do it and I will judge all companies accordingly.

Blasting his email complaint to your company on the Internetz is *NOT PROFESSIONAL*. Apologizing and taking care of his needs without the need to attack him, smear him or bully him in a public forum *IS* professional. If you handled his needs in a professional way I suspect he would post a positive experience on the forums and you would look all the better for it. Guess what? Consumers can do just about anything they want to your company and complain about it and you pretty much have to suck it up and let your excellent product and service speak for itself.

(I do like the veiled threats that you will now treat him poorly as a customer because he dare complain about your service and product. Very nice touch.)

I think there are many customers who have ordered from us, have had problems with products and see we are more then happy to do what we can to fix those problems.

Contrary to what some people believe, just being a paying customer does not give you a blatant right to try to make that company look bad if you have a problem with a product, especially when you have not done anythign to reach out to the company and see if they will help. Am I defensive by caring what is posted about me and my company to our customer base, especially when there is no recourse for my company, yes I am.

Call that a false sense of entitlement, or whatever.

I have no issue at all when a customer contacts me and says there is something wrong with a order, I try my best to work with them. I have had some customers email with concern on resin that is as simple and dipping it in water to get the shape back. Not everyone knows about resin or its properties.

You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service and you do not have the right to squash all criticism of your processes, product or general experience. If he feels what he has experienced was less than satisfactory, he has the right to feel that way and share his experiences. Let *US* think for ourselves and determine if his reports are just a dog barking in the night or a pattern of poor business skills and unprofessional behavior. ( which may be the case from watching how CH handles itself online)

Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?

All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.

I’ve had several orders from chapter house, one of which was lost in the post by royal mail. I exchanged several emails with nick and found his responses prompt and polite.

However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?

Edit (Sorry just to clarify. I meant that you don’t go out of your way for rude customer’s, rather than be rude to them).

Chapterhouse wrote:Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?

All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.

Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.

I can't tell what he ordered because I don't have his PO? really? You do so much volume you can't do minimal effort to try to match his email to an order or match his product description to an order? Posting his communications online? This reeks of petty and personal behavior by an unprofessional company. Come on dude...

Your reaction to his issue and the way you degraded him as a customer continues to speak about your attitude and how your company operates. You would look better with a simple: PM SENT and actually trying to resolve his issue and not waging a public war against him. If you reasonably address his issues I bet he would inform everyone.

However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?

Actually yes I can and do expect him to be polite. That is called customer service. Sometimes it ain't fair but at least if you were professional and reasonable with an unreasonable customer you will be respected by consumers for it. That's the point, keep it professional and not personal like the person posting with the Chapterhouse account basically makes it. He takes everything personally and it reflects poorly on his company.

^ QFT.

Chapterhouse wrote:


Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?

All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.

Fair? What does being "fair" have to do with anything? You're supposed to be running a business. Either you deal with customer complaints as they come up and however they come up, or you don't. The fact that you describe this complaint as ranting and raving, when it was a pretty innocuous description of what happened that likely would have been barely noticed if you were capable of dealing with things in a professional and private manner speaks volumes.

Even given the opportunity to deal with this customers complaints privately through e-mail you chose to whine about the way he chose to seek restitution, implying that he was a liar and that you may not make any effort to help him now.
What are you even doing? You already seem to, inexplicably, have a significant chunk of on-line support for your "cause". Are you hoping to rally more people to your corner by telling everyone how poorly some random customers are treating you?

nkelsch wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Let me get this straight (be patient with me). Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?

All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.

Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.

I can't tell what he ordered because I don't have his PO? really? You do so much volume you can't do minimal effort to try to match his email to an order or match his product description to an order? Posting his communications online? This reeks of petty and personal behavior by an unprofessional company. Come on dude...

Your reaction to his issue and the way you degraded him as a customer continues to speak about your attitude and how your company operates. You would look better with a simple: PM SENT and actually trying to resolve his issue and not waging a public war against him. If you reasonably address his issues I bet he would inform everyone.

However if you slag him off in a forum you can’t really expect him to be polite with you can you?

Actually yes I can and do expect him to be polite. That is called customer service. Sometimes it ain't fair but at least if you were professional and reasonable with an unreasonable customer you will be respected by consumers for it. That's the point, keep it professional and not personal like the person posting with the Chapterhouse account basically makes it. He takes everything personally and it reflects poorly on his company.

I get accused of arrogance at times, but your telling me how my business is ran and how many customers I have?

His email stated that he had an order with a friend, so he didnt place the order...

His email address is not in our system.

We sell many rhino kits a week.

The only clue I have is his orders in Canada..

Part of the benefit (or disadvantage) of owning a small business is not being a faceless entity and actually being able to be part of the community. That means if you piss on me or my business, especially on a public forum, I can react how I wish. That does not mean you will not get good customer service from me, but I wont be happy about how you communicate and be all happy and honky dory.

I welcome new customers and business, I had a nice conversation on the phone with a customer friday about some concerns on a single bubble he had on a resin cast. Speaking with him, I told him its his call, I will be happy to send him a new part, but if he thinks he can work with the bubble (it was in the model, not on the surface) go for it. Either way I will do my best to help him.

Being a business means that you have to deal with all types, even types who are not easy to please. Sometimes you strike out with them even when you try. You end up with anger on both sides sometimes, its part of business and all you can do is try your best with each customer, treat them how you would want to be treated and move on.

I would never expect to be able to make a company look bad in a public forum about an issue, before even trying to contact them, and then expect the small business owner to act like nothings wrong. That is from my upbrining, I dont have a false sense of entitlement and take responsibilities for my actions (even if that is the fact that some folks done agree with me and take business elsewhere).

For the record, I never said I would not try to help the customer and his issue. I did state I was not happy with his posting his issue before we even had the chance to fix it. I am still waiting for his email to send me some more details about the issue.

This is unacceptable behaviour imho.

Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.

If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.

It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.

Both are in the wrong to be fair. I agree with the above statement that it should be taken up with the supplier first, but I also agree fully that its out of order to get pissed off with a customer. If I did that at work, A. I wouldn't expect to see that person ever again, or indeed anyone they knew, and B. I'd get my ass fired. I know this is different, but its still unproffesional as stated. I understand your frustration, I learly flipped out today at a guy, who attempted to get money taken off his function, saying everything was rubbish and poor quality, despite everyone saying how lovely everything was, but I would never personally attack him for it.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:This is unacceptable behaviour imho.

Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.

If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.

It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.

I was trying to stay out of this, because my first foray into the thread was met with hostility.

But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.

Sorry, how did he make you "look bad" other than by literally describing what happened to him?

Either you sent him the wrong, poorly cast item or he's a liar.

If it's the former I don't see how you having the potential to _make up_ for the issue changes the fact that it happened. If it's the latter, he's just a liar and the best way to find that out is to communicate with him.

TheFirstBorn wrote:Both are in the wrong to be fair. I agree with the above statement that it should be taken up with the supplier first, but I also agree fully that its out of order to get pissed off with a customer. If I did that at work, A. I wouldn't expect to see that person ever again, or indeed anyone they knew, and B. I'd get my ass fired. I know this is different, but its still unproffesional as stated. I understand your frustration, I learly flipped out today at a guy, who attempted to get money taken off his function, saying everything was rubbish and poor quality, despite everyone saying how lovely everything was, but I would never personally attack him for it.

Is this really a personal attack? Reading it the third time around I dont see anything personal in it..

Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.

I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.

So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.

For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).

I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.

His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.

"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"

I think it was rather even-handed.

1 Major maxmini order placed and prduct recieved.

3 different styles of shoulderpads.

No flash on anything. Very crisp casts, with fine detail... Oddly enough better than the equivilent GW pads in some cases.

I like their product.

TBH, I think they shouold have been a bit more careful in how they marketed the product.

Nope. not unfair... You don't have the right to serve someone tainted meat just because you will give them 2 free burgers next time. Mistakes happen and people can and should point them out. The consumer can then judge if the reaction to the mistakes was professional and reasonable or simply and attempt to quiet complainers and not part of a commitment to improving overall service. People still retain the right not to be satisfied with the experience regardless what you do. He paid you 31$ for a product and service and he doesn't have to feel satisfied with it if he doesn't want to. And he can and should tell anyone he wants.

This is true. But to be perfectly frank, imagine this scenario. I buy a Tactical Marine box from GW. I get home, open up the box, and see a malformed devastator sprue instead. What is the logical thing thing then to do? Call/Email GW and get it fixed, obviously.

However, in this case, the customer decided on a different methodology. He decided first to go online into an already highly volatile thread about the company in question, and complain that he got the wrong order, and that the order was badly done anyway. When asked if he had actually mentioned it to the company in question, to try and get the desirable solution, his response is basically, '...uhhh, I did a few minutes ago'.

Not the brightest thing to do in the best of circumstances. If I came on here having pulled out the deformed devastator sprue, and complained that GW was of poor quality, and then revealed that I hadn't even tried to get my original order, people would be mildly incredulous, and with good reason. 'But why didn't you just talk to the company first? Regardless of whether you hate GW or not, accidents do happen in shipping', they would say. And they'd be right. The mark of a good company is generally how willing it is to deal with complaints.

Chapterhouse, which is currently under a lot of fire, for several reasons, sees itself under attack in an already volatile thread for not resolving a problem it didn't even know existed. Chapterhouse is already a bit hot under the collar, and probably needs to take a step back, and chill. His response was slightly out of whack with the wording. But that's part of the deal with small companies. They tend to be one or two person run, which removes them from the more polished global corporate image. When people are talking about the company they worked hard to build up, they respond personally. That can be slightly bad for image, as can be seen by a slightly unprofessional response here. It wasn't that bad, nkelsch, you're exaggerating here, but it was a spot unprofessional.

However, the flip side is the dozens of times I've seen people mentioning order cockups before in other threads where Chapterhouse has immediately gone, 'Oops. My bad. Terribly sorry, I'll correct that'. Often free of charge.

When you say, 'You do not have the right to 'answer' back at everyone's experiences with your company and service', I think, uhh, why yes, they do. Everyone has the right to respond when they're in the court of public opinion. The poster with the customer service problem, had no problem. Chapterhouse responded in a minimally unprofessionally way, but with cause, considering they're already under fire in this thread. You then weigh in with some incredibly inflammatory comments, and then tell him he's not allowed to defend himself?
Whilst corporate entities might not respond to you baiting them, its because they're not personally involved, and honestly don't care what you have to say.

I like the fact Chapterhouse posts here. It gives it a personal touch. If that means he acts slightly unprofessional at times, so be it. It shows the fact there's a human on the other end that I can talk to, and work out my problems with as and when necessary, as opposed to a faceless corporate entity. I think you'd find he responded a lot more professionally though, if you'd cease baiting him, and then accusing him of being unprofessional at getting hot under the collar at what are thinly veiled insults at his ability to run a business.

CasaHouse wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:This is unacceptable behaviour imho.

Not only is it off-topic it you are making defamotary statements about a member of Dakka.

If you have had a problem with Chapterhouse, FW GW or anyone else, the first, second and third point of complaint is with that company.

It is poor form to address the issue in public without giving the supplier chance to redress the issue first.

I was trying to stay out of this, because my first foray into the thread was met with hostility.

But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.

LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Thanks Ketara for that, I think you put it in more elegant words then I could. I think you hit allot of that spot on.

Well said Ketara!

I have found its kind of one of the perks of owning your own business. that when some ones rude to you, You can choose not to do business with them again. You don’t need that kind of stress .

CasaHouse wrote:
But how in the name of anything you hold dear is it BAD FORM for you to expect someone whom you paid for something to get it right the first time? This isn't kindergarten. Dude's running a business. If he wants to make money, he should get into the habit of NOT needing second chances.

Because he's human and humans do make the occasional mistake? Or are you a stunning example of flawless perfect that never ever makes even a single mistake? If you're not, I don't know why you expect him to be. The mark of a business with excellent customer service is not one that never makes a mistake, because every business does. It's how the deal with and correct that mistake. If you're not going to give them a chance to fix an error, you can't complain that they never fix errors and have horrible customer service, like this guy was.

johnstewartjohn wrote:I have found its kind of one of the perks of owning your own business. that when some ones rude to you, You can choose not to do business with them again. You don’t need that kind of stress .

Ive never done that, but Ive come close to doing it a couple of times .

Some people are so stupid. You can't go around insulting people even on the internet. Because people are always watching.
So if you bluntly insult a company, you really think they are going to help you? If you are a bastard to a GW customer service guy you really think he is not going to tell you shut up and hang up the phone on you?
It is bluntly Stupid that you as the buyer get all the rights to attack a company just because of an order.

But All privacy for the issues should be sent through an email, not a live online forum that just about anyone can read.

CH you people are good,

Guy who is complaining please stop thinking just because you are the customer means you are entitled to everything, it is stupid to believe that, the Company hand made them and is not some damn corporation that has a Corrupt CEO.
Please reedit your posts as they are bluntly insulting to a Dakka Dakka User and I suggest you read the terms of use of Dakka Dakka before you recomment and quote me as you have not read them at all.

You May Not insult anyone and accuse anyone of anything on a Private Forum.

Sorry if I sounded like a jerk, but if you continually insult other users you deserved to be banned from Dakka Dakka.

His posts might of been unprofessional, but the fact still remains he can still defend himself. The Internet can be used as evidence against you, every post is recorded automatically by the mods and all of the Admins.

He is a human being and you are treating him like a separate entity. Please for the love of all that is holy be more considerate in your posts, as Chapter House Studios is already attacked by a major Corporation.

End.

Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.

Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.

Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.

Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.

-Casa

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.

Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.

Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.

Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.

-Casa

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

Chapterhouse wrote:

I think there are many customers who have ordered from us, have had problems with products and see we are more then happy to do what we can to fix those problems.

Contrary to what some people believe, just being a paying customer does not give you a blatant right to try to make that company look bad if you have a problem with a product, especially when you have not done anythign to reach out to the company and see if they will help. Am I defensive by caring what is posted about me and my company to our customer base, especially when there is no recourse for my company, yes I am.

Call that a false sense of entitlement, or whatever.

Every paying customer has the right to post about bad customer service or experience, even if they have never given the company a chance to make it right or offer customer experience?. That seems a bit unfair, how about to you?

All I want is a chance to try to fix a customers issues before they rant and rave online about it, I dont think that is too much to ask.

And it isn't too much to ask to actually get what you paid for either is it? When I buy something from a company I expect the items I ordered in 100% pristine condition. What I don't expect is a bunch of lip from the company about my complaint no matter what venue I air that complaint. How about you fix the problem like a professional and not go off on someone about a problem they complain about. They gave you money for an item and any problem with that item is 100% your fault. That is period the end.

Your lack of professionalism is rather shocking. Would it have been beneath you to simply say something along the following lines"

"I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your order. If you can provide me with the order number I can find out what the issue was and send you replacement pieces. Again I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you and I will do my best to ensure that this problem is fixed. Thank you for your business and your patience."

I mean why would you say anything other than something along those lines? It makes you look childish and bitter so why do you constantly insist on taking the low road when it comes to any criticism you get on forums? The bottom line is it costs you business.

Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.

Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.

Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".

CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.

I actually thought the customer looked far more childish and bitter myself.

Chapterhouse wrote:

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

Ok seriously?!?!?!?!??! Yeah blame the infamous "clicked on the wrong item" event as your out in this..... now thats shockingly professional. I mean really do you try and make it easy for people to root against you?

Oh, I wasn't really taking a shot at you, ChapterHouse. I was more irritated with the attitude that it's bad form to expect a company to get it right the first time, and to include it in your feedback when they don't. That's not how business works.

I apologize if it seemed that that was directed at you. It was more a conflict of rhetoric between unrelated parties.

plastictrees wrote:Really? Because he's shown me that there's a human on the other end that thinks we should sympathize with him for having to do work and that he should never have to deal with the negative side of pushing his product on a public forum.

Yes, he absolutely has the right to answer back, but doing so makes him look petty and unprofessional. It's like the Comic Book Store Guy started a casting business.

Ketara, what is your "scenario" meant to demonstrate? That neither scenario gets your badly made product fixed? That's true, but both scenarios involve the customer receiving sub-standard product and then telling people about it. The customer isn't bound to secrecy. He didn't say "I tried to contact CH and they did nothing".

CH could stop posting at any time, he could just say "We're going to look into the complaint and do our best to resolve it". He's the one running up and down the thread waving his dirty laundry all over the place.

How about because he said Chapterhouse has terrible customer service and wouldn't replace products when he never actually gave them a chance to do it?

Chapterhouse wrote:

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.

Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.

Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.

Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.

-Casa

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.

Because if you read Brettz comment, it apparently still wasn't good enough?

plastictrees wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.

Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.

Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.

Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.

-Casa

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.

He did. You might of just ignored it, happens sometimes on a thread, people ignore other posters.

plastictrees wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:
LOL way to stay out of it..

Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits and components that are similiar in shape and appearance and see if you never make a mistake.

Fact of the matter is I still have no idea what his order was without a PO#, and blame could be on either side at the moment (pertaining to wrong part).

Used to stuff envelopes for a Life Insurance Company for 8hrs a day.

Only a one or two word difference per page in the contents of each one.

Actual different shapes would be a cakewalk.

Try listening to either soothing or very rhythmic music while you work. It helps.

-Casa

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

What was wrong with just posting this three pages ago? Good Lord.

Didnt I?

Of course he emailed me, after he posted his concerns on an online forum without giving us the chance to see what was wrong.

I read his email, but I still cannot do anything since I have no idea what order number he had.

So I really have no idea what his complaints are, that and pictures would be helpful as well.

For the record his concerns are resin casting "flaws" and wrong item shipped. (which could just as easily be he may have ordered the wrong item, I cant tell without seeing his PO#).

I dont know why people think it is better to post complaints on a online forum before contacting the company, that does not win you any points with anyone and certainly does not make the company more likely to help you.

His email tells me he already thinks our customer service sucks without even had any dealing with me before.

"I would like to get this order fixed and get what I origionally ordered, which would be the generic rhino sprue no.1 but that probably wouldn't happen, but I thought you guys would like to know about the flaws so you guys can fix them atleast"

Chapterhouse wrote:
Try packing orders for 8 hours straight with small little bits [/quote=Chapterhouse]

Oh i do hope thats my order you was packing, im frinking dying to try out the alien heads, they look great and i placed my order on friday!! One question do you think they will fit on bloodletter bodies?