This isn't a place to discuss the legal minutiae of the case, it's simply a binary question to get a feel for the forum population's sentiments.

If you want, throw a brief 1-2 liner explaining why you voted the way you did.

"News and Rumors" isn't really the place for this thread, so...

...Shazam!

Chapter House, because GW can defend and keep their IP safe and sound without also being Arseholes about it. Plus maybe if they sack a few lawyers they can pump out another plastic set or two a year with the savings!

I don't really mind what Chapterhouse is doing personally, but they are quite blatantly ripping off GW's stuff, so GW should easily win a lawsuit in case there was one.

Is there an actual (pending) lawsuit, or are you just presuming there will be one eventually?

There's a lawsuit pending. Mods moved this thread from the News&Rumors section, but you can read more on the specifics there (in the News&Rumors section).

I'd prefer CH to come out ahead because that would result in an increase in competition, and increased competition is only good for the consumer. It would provide us with a larger amount of variety. It would also result in an overall reduction in price as competitors strove to balance quality of product with price the consumer is willing to pay.

From a consumer standpoint, there really is no downside to CH winning the lawsuit, and no real upside to GW winning.

Chapterhouses stuff is clearly inspired by GW art, but nothing is a direct copy. I think that they make the hobby more interesting and aren't hurting GW in any measurable way. Losing that would be a loss, especially since I want a full jetseer council.

I have no strong opinion. I think if Chapterhouse were a little less blatant in their advertising and so on, they could probably do business with little trouble from GW. GW do have a right to protect their IP, so yeah whatever. My hope is that the outcome is something reasonable, like CH using generic terms and avoiding the use of GW specific bits and kits in their advertising.

Saldiven wrote:I'd prefer CH to come out ahead because that would result in an increase in competition, and increased competition is only good for the consumer. It would provide us with a larger amount of variety. It would also result in an overall reduction in price as competitors strove to balance quality of product with price the consumer is willing to pay.

From a consumer standpoint, there really is no downside to CH winning the lawsuit, and no real upside to GW winning.

There's no "increase in competition" that would result from CH winning. CH doesn't produce their own game or products based on their own IP that is an alternative to GW's.
Basically every point you made for "prefering CH to come out ahead" is ridiculous and irrelevant.

If the case were Privateer Press being sued by GW for IP infringement, your points would have a bit more merit.
But let's face it; this isn't a case of two competing companies having at it over a contested point. It's a company that, for a simplistic animal analogy, is a remora clinging to a shark. As long as they don't anger the shark or get in the shark's way, they don't get ate up and they remain happily fed. If they get in the shark's way...they become the shark's next meal.

Da Boss wrote:My hope is that the outcome is something reasonable, like CH using generic terms and avoiding the use of GW specific bits and kits in their advertising.

Voice of reason... is that you??

(But seriously, that's what I hope for, too)

Can we have a fence sitting option?

Oh, and make sure that when the case is resolved we also a have a 'meh' option when we get the 'Do you think the judgement was right' poll and thread.

I guess it might be too much to ask that GW work with Chapterhouse, huh?

I hope Chapterhouse comes out okay... I personally don't like their stuff but I like the idea of folks having a choice of after market parts.

GW basically have four points:
1. Chapterhouse's website makes it look like they are in some way official or affiliated - I do think their tagline could have been better phrased.
2. Parts of the walker (railguns) look just like GW parts - they do, to be fair.
3. Chapterhouse shouldn't be allowed to sell bits because it makes it harder for us to possibly sell those bits in the future if we decide to get around to it - absolutely ridiculous.
4. Chapterhouse used our special trademarked words without our permission - also absolutely ridiculous.

ETA, points 3 and 4 worry me because, should they get a favourable ruling (unlikely) it opens up everyone making aftermarket stuff. E.G. Battlefoam make a rhino tray - "you used our words and we might want to sell something like that in the future!"

I usually root for the little guy, but Chapterhouse has had a really irritating attitude towards this entire thing, and they're parading around copyrighted designs and trademarked terms all over their website. I'm not a fan of most of their sculpts, but I don't exactly want to see them get burned to the ground. If GW makes them change wording around (from "Space Marine shoulder pads!" to "Power armor shoulder pads" and so on) then I think they can do alright.

If they had used phrases like "Shoulder Pad - suitable for 28mm armoured models such as GW Space Marines" it sounds much better than "Space Marine Shoulder Pads" which kind of implies that they are "official" space marine shoulder pads.

Stupid that you should have to make that kind of distinction, but that's the world we're in, unfortunately.

I also hate to see a little guy get stepped on, but almost everything they sell is infringing on GW's IP. Sorry Chapterhouse, you are gonna lose this one.

Does the fact that I customize my SM and CSM with chapterhouse stuff matter!

Scott-S6 wrote:If they had used phrases like "Shoulder Pad - suitable for 28mm armoured models such as GW Space Marines" it sounds much better than "Space Marine Shoulder Pads" which kind of implies that they are "official" space marine shoulder pads.

Stupid that you should have to make that kind of distinction, but that's the world we're in, unfortunately.

I would agree - most of the "problems" that I can see stem from how they are phrasing things on their site, rather than what it is they are physically making. A few edits on their website (and perhaps a couple of items removed from sale) and Robert is your parents brother.

3rd party manufacturers have just started to really get off the ground for conversion/etc parts (as far as I am concerned anyway) and it would be a shame to curtail this by making other companies too afraid of making anything without GW deciding to stomp on them.

GW. Chapter House Broke the law.

blood reaper wrote:GW. Chapter House Broke the law.

Really? I didn't know that the case has already been decided. Or that you have a full appreciation of the facts and relevant law to make that determination on your own.

I mean, if you're actually saying "based on a casual awareness of the facts and a complete lack of knowledge of American IP law, my gut tells me that what Chapterhouse did was in violation of GW's rights," than that's a fine statement. But let's not pretend you know what you're talking about.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If they had used phrases like "Shoulder Pad - suitable for 28mm armoured models such as GW Space Marines" it sounds much better than "Space Marine Shoulder Pads" which kind of implies that they are "official" space marine shoulder pads.

Stupid that you should have to make that kind of distinction, but that's the world we're in, unfortunately.

I would agree - most of the "problems" that I can see stem from how they are phrasing things on their site, rather than what it is they are physically making. A few edits on their website (and perhaps a couple of items removed from sale) and Robert is your parents brother.

3rd party manufacturers have just started to really get off the ground for conversion/etc parts (as far as I am concerned anyway) and it would be a shame to curtail this by making other companies too afraid of making anything without GW deciding to stomp on them.

Chapterhouse seem to be in the middle of doing exactly that:

"Vehicle Replacement Part Kits that fit on Games Workshop Models"
"Bits/Conversions kits for 28 mm Mars Faction"
"Bits/Conversion kits for Space Elves"

I believe GW should win becuase Chapter House Copied GW's Trademarked items and names. It's just my thought on the situation.

If GW wins,

- They get lots of money from sueing
- Chapterhouse is all OOP
-Sell the OOP bits on ebay as ''collectors items''
-Profit!

I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

Honestly, I'm really sickened by all these "told-you-so" smug types on this board that support GW. Not every GW-apologetic has this viewpoint, mind you.

Understand that if GW wins this lawsuit, it may set a very dangerous precedent that could heavily diminish the third party bits market. The automotive parts market example has been given, but this is a different market. GW could use this case as precedent to strong-arm anyone that makes bits compatible with miniatures in "The Games Workshop Hobby".

I understand it's cliche to hate on Games Workshop, but I oppose them for the following reasons:
1 - GW could have sent a C&D. Instead, they decided upon a punch-in-the-face lawsuit.
2 - GW has their sources wrong and Paulson games did not have any hand in producing the Walker in question.
3 - GW is trying to strong-arm competition regarding some iconography that they do not have trademarked.

Finally, people seem to be really missing the focus of the lawsuit. The major component in question is the Walker. Additionally, the lawsuit is against Chapterhouse AND Paulson.

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

Pick a side and stop trying to treat this like a genuine conflict of interest between two businesses.

Polonius wrote:Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.

Polonius wrote:Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

Pick a side and stop trying to treat this like a genuine conflict of interest between two businesses.

Bah! Humbug!

Watch me insert some legal minutiae into this thread!

Absolutionis wrote:I understand it's cliche to hate on Games Workshop, but I oppose them for the following reasons:
1 - GW could have sent a C&D. Instead, they decided upon a punch-in-the-face lawsuit.

We can't actually know what went on pre-suit; there may have been letters sent, or there may not have been.

2 - GW has their sources wrong and Paulson games did not have any hand in producing the Walker in question.

Yup, this is a problem. As was brought up elsewhere, it could have an interesting effect on venue, too.

3 - GW is trying to strong-arm competition regarding some iconography that they do not have trademarked.

You don't have to *register* a trademark for it to be a trademark; that's the difference, for example, between words marked "TM" and those marked with a (R). Most states still have either common law or state trademark protections available. (If you want to take advantage of the protections offered under the Federal Trademark Act, you need to register your trademark.)

I wish the lawyery types would get of the way of a good clean scrum.

I choose GW, because they are clearly bastions of all that is right and just about miniature wargaming, while Chapterhouse is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Oh, and I play warmachine.

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

You're free to create your own poll with a set of hundreds of legal and factual determinations to generate an aggregate sentiment barometer for a forum audience of fifty contributors that you might then index into a nebulous non-answer.

sourclams wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

You're free to create your own poll with a set of hundreds of legal and factual determinations to generate an aggregate sentiment barometer for a forum audience of fifty contributors that you might then index into a nebulous non-answer.

Because there IS no binary answer.

Imagine that - a problem more complex than can be decided by a yes/no poll!

So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Okay- CH because they are sorta ripping off GW's stuff, though I feel not overly enough to warrant a lawsuit. That and I want to buy some of thier heresy-era JP's.

I'm really surprised how many people want GW to win this suit.

Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit.

Sure, they might be on rock solid legal ground and win this suit without any problem. I sure don't know enough about the situation to know all the legal ins and outs.

All I know is that GW getting rid of this company reduces my options as a consumer.

And Kanluwen, by competition I meant that CH making items that people want might actually inspire GW to make those items themselves. CH winning would also open the doors to more similar companies to start marketing their own aftermarket parts, since a precedent allowing it would exist. That is the increase in competition to which I referred.

Hmmm...

Edited by moderator. Rule #1, folks.

Hey, a POLL!! Good idea

I vote for a GW win, its their I.P. and they should defend it.

I also encourage companies to branch out and create new things for me to window lick and want....GW is big enough as it is, with more companies jumping on their bandwagon I'm worried that people won't make the effort to innovate, after all, creativity and innovation is hard, and could lead to nothing....the easy road is to ride someone elses success, but create nothing new.

sourclams wrote:So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

Because it's trivializing a field I know a lot about? Because it's encouraging an us-vs-them mentality that has no place in any business lawsuit? Because it encourages people to reach un- and underinformed opinions?

How about because this lawsuit has a very real, very serious effect on people that contribute to the Dakka community, and trivializing what is probably a very serious event for them in this way seems demeaning, insulting, and rude?

Janthkin wrote:

2 - GW has their sources wrong and Paulson games did not have any hand in producing the Walker in question.

Yup, this is a problem. As was brought up elsewhere, it could have an interesting effect on venue, too.

Someone pointed out in the other thread that there's a part in the wording that "14 of the 15 items also offered by Paulson Games are based upon Games Workshop IP." or something to that effect.

So I guess they did take notice of the "Riding Wolves".

Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

I hope Chapterhouse wins because this is IMO just GW getting pissy because somebody else is making better products than them. Not to mention these third party companies are making what people actually want. Not just sitting around telling people to convert models themselves.

Janthkin wrote:

sourclams wrote:So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

Because it's trivializing a field I know a lot about? Because it's encouraging an us-vs-them mentality that has no place in any business lawsuit? Because it encourages people to reach un- and underinformed opinions?

How about because this lawsuit has a very real, very serious effect on people that contribute to the Dakka community, and trivializing what is probably a very serious event for them in this way seems demeaning, insulting, and rude?

?!?!? What....

I respect your knowledge on this matter especially as this is your specialist field ( bearing in mind, I don't actually know you, and you could be that same Japanese man who goes onto internet forums pretending to be a school girl, and sells his used pants rather then "hers" to twisted western gentlemen, but thats another story! ), and I also respect that in reality there may be no clear winner, as such, to a case this "complex"

But really, who cares? For us Forum luddites, its about GW trying to paste someone for peeing on their turf.....

Sorry, to put it so blunt, but there are guys, presumably, like yourself, earning a lot of money trying to work this mess out, we Forum Warriors, don't stand a chance, but it sure as hell makes for a good Thursday evening debate.....so lighten up and play along....unless of course you're on one of the legal teams.....and not selling your underpants....

Polonius wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

Pick a side and stop trying to treat this like a genuine conflict of interest between two businesses.

Polonius, there are days that I truly love you.

The poll options really suck. This isn't really a matter than can be boiled down to a simple binary choice.

Groan.

I feel like no matter who wins, everyone still loses in the end. Where's that option?

4M2A wrote:Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

No, they'e taken GW artwork and background, a bunged some greenstuff together, proclaiming it 'all me own work guv' then added insult to injury by advertising it using GW terms and names and that. This is taking the piss.

And as came up in the first thread, confirmed by Polonious....IP is something you either defend, or risk losing. So there is no bullying on GW's behalf. This is something they have to do, and clearly something CH have brought down upon their own heads. Hence my lack of sympathy.

Mr Mystery wrote:

4M2A wrote:Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

No, they'e taken GW artwork and background, a bunged some greenstuff together, proclaiming it 'all me own work guv' then added insult to injury by advertising it using GW terms and names and that. This is taking the piss.

And as came up in the first thread, confirmed by Polonious....IP is something you either defend, or risk losing. So there is no bullying on GW's behalf. This is something they have to do, and clearly something CH have brought down upon their own heads. Hence my lack of sympathy.

With all due sincerity, why are you so emotionally provoked by this? Why do you feel the need to insult the employees of Chapterhouse? If you feel it is wrong, so be it, but no person's feelings one way or the other will make any of these actions legal or illegal.

Please stop being so belligerent, at least publicly, as I fail to see what it accomplishes, and it is in violation of this board's policies as well.

Absolutionis wrote:1 - GW could have sent a C&D. Instead, they decided upon a punch-in-the-face lawsuit.

Going by comments made by CH in the past, it would seem that they did receive at least one C&D letter previous to this...


Meanwhile, here's a reminder for everyone to remember Rule #1. If you don't feel that you can contribute to the discussion without insulting someone, feel free to find something else to do with your time.

Unhappy at GW's heavy hand, concerned about a chilling effect on the 28mm market.

Kanluwen wrote:Someone pointed out in the other thread that there's a part in the wording that "14 of the 15 items also offered by Paulson Games are based upon Games Workshop IP." or something to that effect.

So I guess they did take notice of the "Riding Wolves".

I've just taken my first look at the Paulson Games website. The Riding Wolves seem a bit thin as a "based upon our IP" example, ditto the Scythes. Can't see the pictures for the Underslung Gun or Bio-Terror, so can't comment on them.

I can kinda see where they might be coming from on the Medium and Long Guns, but only due to the panel lining - not sure how that stands up as IP.

The Bio-Swords, Tendril Whips, Winged Jump Packs and Robot Combat Talons seem to be on somewhat dodgier ground, in my (admittedly uneducated in the matters) opinion.

Final warning. Several off-topic and inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread. The next post that breaks Rule #1, or that is aimed at another poster instead of the actual topic, earns a vacation.

Who do I want to win? chapterhouse.
Who deserves to win? GW.

Tee-hee! logic is fun!

Okay, look at it this way.

You have created a new world for wargaming in. You've created art, background, iconography, models, rules, the whole shebang. This has taken considerable time and effort. However, due to financial and arguably chronological restraints, you cannot release everything all at once. Something has to be put on the back burner until budgets can be raised to do the next step.

So you go ahead and release what you expect to be the biggest sellers. And whilst you wait for your chance to do the next wave, some other company steps in, creates models blatantly based on your artwork and iconography, and even goes so far as to name them the same, piggy backing off your hard work with perhaps a few hours pushing greenstuff around, and starts to sell them.

How would that not piss you off, and why wouldn't you want to put a stop to it?

It's not as if CH have actually created original works in most cases (the big walker fair enough, even if it's design cues are a little obvious). They've gone after GW designed stuff knowing it's a fast buck. This is parasitic behaviour.

IP is something that has to be protected, or you will lose it. And sure, you might argue 'but GW are big corporate entity, they can take the odd hit' don't forget, they are a big corporate entity that likely employ a couple of thousand people, which I would say is all the more reason to defend your IP as strongly as possible.

Again, CH have brought this on themselves by deliberately using copyrighted terms and iconography to promote their range.

This is not a matter of 'market choice'. The market choice is to play PP, GW, Mantic games etc. You want to play PP? You buy PP models. You want to play GW, you buy GW models (well, barring Elves etc. Can't copyright them as a concept, but you can a design). THAT is your choice. THAT is how a freemarket works. THAT is what IP law is there to defend and enforce. THIS is where CH crossed the line.

Surely it's simple to see?

Since so many folks want to make "upgrade kids" for GW stuff, maybe GW could make an affiliate program where you can get officially licensed GW things from 3rd parties. It could be model upgrades or even t-shirts or mouse pads. GW would have to approve every item, but it could give new sculptor companies something to aspire to and knowing GW if they did something like this their standards for who they let into the program would be pretty high...

I hope Chapterhouse wins, but I have a feeling GW will merely because GW has the legal endurance (I.E. money) to prolong things.

I feel, with no legal background, that Chapterhouse's designs are safe but that they may have gone a bit far with descriptions.

For the record, I've never bought from Chapterhouse and haven't bought GW stuff in years, so no dog in the fight for me, really. I tend to favor the 'Non-GW' option, but in this case, GW really loses nothing by the existence of aftermarket conversion part companies except when it's a niche they fill in a worse way.

To use CH shoulderpads, you're still buying Space Marines. to use 3rd party IG heads, you're still buying Cadians. GW sells a few sets of shoulder pads and no (as far as I'm aware) sets of alternate IG heads (other than raiding another line like WHFB Empire sprues).

If GW is doing this as a lead-up to moving into that kind of market, more power to them. They can compete on a 'level' playing field as they have good sculptors, already have a lot of infrastructure in place (I.E. for plastic production), and can buy raw materials in bulk. I feel GW could compete, and compete well, if they wanted to by looking on this as an opportunity and making sprues of shoulder pads that are cheaper and better than CH's, and I'm cool with that. Better is always going to be subjective in the kind of thing, and I see nothing wrong with Company X Producing Cosmic Puppy sigils as they aren't allowed to sue the protected Space Wolf markings.

I agree with Balance's point above. I concede all the points about protecting IP and defending imagery and all the hard work that GW have done building up the brand etc etc but I feel that they are being a little heavy handed about it all (and not without precedent really; we saw the same thing with the C&D fiasco and the fallout over the Blood Bowl rules).

As previously mentioned, its not like the CH stuff is gunning to replace GW product; its an enhancement so I fail to see why GW are so angry. I understand that they want to have some sort of quality control over anything labelled 40K which is fine, but why couldn't they come to some sort of licensing agreement with CH? After all, they don't want to bother making this piddly aftermarket conversion stuff themselves...

Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

Filbert...it's all down to the IP. If GW did nothing about CH's infringement, then they could lose all their IP, and that could well be the end of GW as we know it.

The measure isn't heavy handed. We do not know if a C&D letter was sent, though some have suggested it was, and then ignored. Win or lose the case, it's still costing GW money, and no company wants to spend money it doesn't absolutely have to, especially on a long legal case, which this could well be. But it is necessary to defend their own IP.

As for the aftermarket, see my post above. GW do work to a budget, they literally cannot just churn out what they want, when they want. That they have yet to produce said goodies is no reason for anyone else to step in and use their IP to produce in their stead. Not without a license anyways! I'm sure the people of GW would love to be able to do a dozen different shoulder pads for all the different chapters/legions. Hell, I'm sure they have killer ideas for new units, armies possibly even games they'd love to produce. But cool does not equal practical or (had a really good word for this bit, then went and forgot it!) possible.

Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

But we live in a world where people would rather bitch and fight than produce quality goods.

Mr Mystery wrote:Filbert...it's all down to the IP. If GW did nothing about CH's infringement, then they could lose all their IP, and that could well be the end of GW as we know it.

I would humbly suggest it is a little bit of an oversimplification and exaggeration to claim that not pursuing CH and other similar small companies equates to GW losing a grip on their IP. If a company started up churning out GW recasts, then that is clearly a different matter. But again, this is one for the IP lawyers to debate.

The measure isn't heavy handed. We do not know if a C&D letter was sent, though some have suggested it was, and then ignored. Win or lose the case, it's still costing GW money, and no company wants to spend money it doesn't absolutely have to, especially on a long legal case, which this could well be. But it is necessary to defend their own IP.

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

As for the aftermarket, see my post above. GW do work to a budget, they literally cannot just churn out what they want, when they want. That they have yet to produce said goodies is no reason for anyone else to step in and use their IP to produce in their stead. Not without a license anyways! I'm sure the people of GW would love to be able to do a dozen different shoulder pads for all the different chapters/legions. Hell, I'm sure they have killer ideas for new units, armies possibly even games they'd love to produce. But cool does not equal practical or (had a really good word for this bit, then went and forgot it!) possible.

And that's the salient point, no? GW may well want to do this stuff but have decided against it for cost / profit / effort purposes. Clearly there is a market and a demand that CH have responded to. I don't really see how this can hurt GW; rather everyone wins. GW sell kits, CH sell conversion pieces, the customer gets what they wanted that GW hitherto haven't been able or willing to provide. A contented customer is more likely to persevere in the hobby and continue buying stuff are they not? The only downside would be if the kits sold by the 3rd party are of a low quality that GW feel damage their own rep - can't comment on this as I have never bought any CH stuff.

I'm not saying GW should abandon all attempts to protect themselves, rather that perhaps it could have been handled a little better. GW seem all too keen and quick to wheel out the legal team IMO.

Ah, but then the problem begins here regarding IP.

For all we know, the sculpts for everything in the books already exist, just waiting for the budget to make the mould. If CH's Tervigon kit is too similar to GW's, this is where GW could lose their IP, as CH could claim there's came first, therefore they own that particular IP.

IP appears to be something you have to be heavy handed about, going from C&D right up to the shtook CH have found themselves in. And again, it's not CH taking inspiration from GW artwork, but using GW names etc for their works that is likely the biggest problem here.

I'd prefer CH only because it would increase competition & perhaps drop GW prices (har har). Other than that IDC, I don't like the quality I've seen from CH & think GW makes a much better product.

Mr Mystery wrote:Ah, but then the problem begins here regarding IP.

For all we know, the sculpts for everything in the books already exist, just waiting for the budget to make the mould. If CH's Tervigon kit is too similar to GW's, this is where GW could lose their IP, as CH could claim there's came first, therefore they own that particular IP.

IP appears to be something you have to be heavy handed about, going from C&D right up to the shtook CH have found themselves in. And again, it's not CH taking inspiration from GW artwork, but using GW names etc for their works that is likely the biggest problem here.

Possibly but then again I don't think anyone knows enough about the details of the case to comment effectively. Everything else is just posturing and pure speculation. I just feel that GW should be trying to engage and embrace the community rather than treat everything else with disdain.

sourclams wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

You're free to create your own poll with a set of hundreds of legal and factual determinations to generate an aggregate sentiment barometer for a forum audience of fifty contributors that you might then index into a nebulous non-answer.

GW should win but hire chapterhouse and then release the stuff as cheap kits, also slash 50% from all their current RRP. Will your poll have that answer?

But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

Happygrunt wrote:Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

I will never understand why people think Chapterhouse is part of "the community".

They're not. They're a business that makes money off the community.

By selling products not produced by GW that can only be used on GW models.

You have to Space Marines to make use of the stuff CHS sells. It's not CHS is selling complete kits. They're selling add ons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

I will never understand why people think Chapterhouse is part of "the community".

They're not. They're a business that makes money off the community.

Its the same way GW relates to the community. They are still a part of the community, same as all the other production companies.

And I have seen an entire salamander CH army. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen.

Mr Mystery wrote:But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

I don't think that is in question. What I think is up for consideration is whether or not GW are being too aggressive in the pursuit of this IP protection. I don't think it is necessary and comes across as being aloof and disdainful - a complaint that has long been levelled at GW. They hold the internet community in a similar sort of regard and have done so for years. Sometimes I think they are a little out of touch which comes from being much more of a corporate entity rather than the homespun hobby centre that they like to portray themselves as.

It's not a question of who I hope will win, it's just that GW will probably win since chapterhouse rather blatantly disregarded GW's copyright.

I really don't want chapterhouse shut down(so how are your missing tyranid models/bits coming along, GW?), but I really don't see them winning.

Amaya wrote:By selling products not produced by GW that can only be used on GW models.

You have to Space Marines to make use of the stuff CHS sells. It's not CHS is selling complete kits. They're selling add ons.

Adds on which use GW's IP without permission. Again, this is the problem.

I'm by no means a lawyer. But.

CH (even though they are renaming stuff on their website) is taking names of products from GW. Plain and simple. Which AFAIK is a violation of IP.

I think we all want the little guy to take down the multi-million dollar mega-corporation. But I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe they'll come to some civilized agreement.

I'm not sure of the history, but how did Armorcast end up getting the rights to make titans back in the day? Looking at my warhound, it says 'ARMORCAST Copyright 1989 Games Workshop Ltd.' Is / was armorcast a subsidiary of GW? Or did they have rights to produce models within the 40k universe? Maybe CH will get somewhere along the same lines for permission.


Just my .02.

-Adam

sourclams wrote:This isn't a place to discuss the legal minutiae of the case, it's simply a binary question to get a feel for the forum population's sentiments.

If you want, throw a brief 1-2 liner explaining why you voted the way you did.

I think I want a little bit of both but I am mostly on GWs side. I think chapterhouse goes just a little too far in using GWs IP. It just rubs me the wrong way and I really don't like it. Now having said that I think they should not be put out of business but should remove the more obvious things removed from their website. I think of these as mostly the space marine shoulder pads which are geared towards existing chapters and use existing GW ideas and iconography.

I also don't particularly like how freely the owner of chapterhouse went around telling everyone that he was standing on sound legal grounds in regards to what he could and couldn't do. Now I don't know if he is right or not but it seems like the height of hubris to stand up tell someone else what you are going to do with their ideas and that they can't do anything about it...... just rubs me the wrong way I guess.


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Saldiven wrote:I'm really surprised how many people want GW to win this suit.

Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit.
.

I was actually surprised by this too but for me personally it isn't about my benefit it is about what I think it right and what I think is wrong. I personally feel that GW has the right to earn money from their creation (which 40k is) and they should be able to determine if they want another company making money off of their creation or not.

sk82712 wrote:I'm not sure of the history, but how did Armorcast end up getting the rights to make titans back in the day? Looking at my warhound, it says 'ARMORCAST Copyright 1989 Games Workshop Ltd.' Is / was armorcast a subsidiary of GW? Or did they have rights to produce models within the 40k universe? Maybe CH will get somewhere along the same lines for permission.

Armorcast had a license to produce vehicles for 40K. That license was not renewed when GW decided to launch Forgeworld and produce those sorts of models themselves.

GW certainly has a right to protect their IP... I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

Thing is, being aftermarket as many claim, does not drive GW's sales. Nobody sees a shoulder pad and goes 'hey, I'd best go buy the marines for that!'. Reverse is most likely. Buy marines, see alternate pads, buy pads.

And not meaning to be confrontational, but nobody knows whether or not a C&D letter was sent (given GW's previous, seems more like than not however). And what other option is there? Someone is openly abusing your IP, what else do you do but threaten and then take legal action?

Saldiven wrote:Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit..

Don't we?

Here's a hypothetical:
Chapterhouse produces a third-party conversion kit for turning a Carnifex into a Tervigon. It's (no offense to CH, personal opinion here) not great, but it's relatively cheap.
Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

So the end result is no official Tervigon kit, and the only available model being a rather wonky-looking conversion kit made by a completely different company. That's not a win for the consumer. The win for the consumer would come from GW knowing that they can produce the models that they want to produce for their own game without having to worry about the potential market being diluted by cheaper, poorer-quality knock-offs.


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Balance wrote: I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

Once again, CH have hinted in the past that they have in fact received at least one C&D from GW.

filbert wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

I don't think that is in question. What I think is up for consideration is whether or not GW are being too aggressive in the pursuit of this IP protection. I don't think it is necessary and comes across as being aloof and disdainful - a complaint that has long been levelled at GW. They hold the internet community in a similar sort of regard and have done so for years. Sometimes I think they are a little out of touch which comes from being much more of a corporate entity rather than the homespun hobby centre that they like to portray themselves as.

And if CH was just producing shoulderpads that would be "compatible", I don't think there'd be a problem.

But they've gone past that, and produce entire kits, using the names and artwork from GW art. The Meiotic Spore Pod and Tervigon didn't just crop up out of nowhere.

Balance wrote:GW certainly has a right to protect their IP... I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

But how do we know they didn't send a C&D letter first?
Similar to what Insaniak said: Chapterhouse has always said they're on a "secure legal footing and likely were sent a C&D, but just ignored it".

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

brettz123 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

No that's not what I am saying at all. I was responding to Mr Mystery's post (hence the quote which you missed out) in which he mentioned that GW wouldn't necessarily embark on potentially costly legal effort without good reason. My point in response being that GW can afford to do so because I suspect they have an entire legal department employed to do just that, unlike CH who will probably end up going bankrupt even if they should 'win' the case.

I personally see GW coming out on top of this but I would like to see an entity like Chapterhouse work in some kind of agreement with Games Workshop. I know it probably won't happen, but it'd be nice to have more stuff come out.

As for the poll options, I prefer to remain in the neutral position.

filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

As for GW licensing out this sort of stuff, I'm not sure GW would. Not only would said company have to come up to their standards, but said company would have to pay GW a license fee, and a cut of the profits to produce anything. Which isn't a great business plan! Add in GW have the right to terminate the license at any point, and it's an unappealing proposition. Electronic Games etc are better licenses, as GW themselves aren't involved in said market.

Mr Mystery wrote:filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

Personal injury cases, possibly. No win, no fee right?

Not sure how it works elsewhere but I suspect not. Maybe one of the US law contingent can answer?

Edit: That's why litigation or the threat of is such an effective coercing tool, presumably. Even if the accuser doesn't win they can still do considerable damage to the smaller operation.

Samus_aran115 wrote:GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Nah Mate

Legal chaps cost many pennies.
GW hires them by the shipload then off loads the cost onto the consumer.
Sack the lawyers and lower the cost of models would be good!

Mr Mystery wrote:filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

IIRC that's the case in the UK but not (or not always?) in the US.

Also, even if that were the case, if GW can prolong a case long enough then it doesn't matter if Chapterhouse is actually in the right because they'll go bankrupt before the case is over. Like waiting the other side of a siege out.

So the end result is no official Tervigon kit, and the only available model being a rather wonky-looking conversion kit made by a completely different company. That's not a win for the consumer. The win for the consumer would come from GW knowing that they can produce the models that they want to produce for their own game without having to worry about the potential market being diluted by cheaper, poorer-quality knock-offs.

The likely outcome would be that GW continue regardless.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Nah Mate

Legal chaps cost many pennies.
GW hires them by the shipload then off loads the cost onto the consumer.
Sack the lawyers and lower the cost of models would be good!

Of course, one could accused companies like Chapterhouse of causing GW to have a legal team on standby, thus the higher prices are the third party's fault

lol
Never did like conspiracy theories!

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "increase in competition" that would result from CH winning. CH doesn't produce their own game or products based on their own IP that is an alternative to GW's.
Basically every point you made for "prefering CH to come out ahead" is ridiculous and irrelevant.

If the case were Privateer Press being sued by GW for IP infringement, your points would have a bit more merit.
But let's face it; this isn't a case of two competing companies having at it over a contested point. It's a company that, for a simplistic animal analogy, is a remora clinging to a shark. As long as they don't anger the shark or get in the shark's way, they don't get ate up and they remain happily fed. If they get in the shark's way...they become the shark's next meal.

I'm taking it that this is your long-winded way of saying "I hope GW skull-feths CH until they bleed money!", right?


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insaniak wrote:Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

Except they wouldn't, because the majority of 40K players aren't like us and they know that. They know that the majority won't even know that these 3rd Party Groups exist, and will buy anything that's official (just look at the Defiler as an example of this - everyone made their own before it was released, and once it hit shelves, everyone went and bought them anyway).

Most people will see a new GW Tervigon kit and go "OMG! I can buy one now!". Most of those same 40K players will also say "What's a Chapterhouse?".

Amaya wrote:Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

Except that Chapterhouse generally produces lower quality product. Not bad work, but soft edges on items that should be crisp, inconsistent detail and symmetry. The work is very good when it comes to biological (ie. Tyranid) stuff that is very forgiving on these points. But it's not at the same level as GW final product. (yes, I fully admit GW has released some utter abominations).

I'll be selfish and say that I want us to win.

If that means GW wins and makes all the conversion kits that Chapterhouse was
making or planning on making, then cool.

If that means Chapterhouse wins and makes cheaper versions of conversion kits
that are as good as anything GW would have done, then cool.

However, I don't think the world works quite like that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people will see a new GW Tervigon kit and go "OMG! I can buy one now!". Most of those same 40K players will also say "What's a Chapterhouse?".

Some folks(the overwhelming majority of Tyranid players that I know) will look at both kits and just say "Sigh." They're the ones that broke out the green stuff and made their own by kit bashing/sculpting.

Also, Judging by the quality of GWs recent releases(a few beastmen kits notwithstanding) GW's kit will be vastly superior and probably continue the streak of multiple options in one box, ie Skaven warmachines, the Trygon/Mawloc and IG tanks. The CH kit also requires a purchase of the Carnifex box, so it may possibly even end up more expensive then GWs if they make their Tervigon/Tyrannofex box a stand alone set.

I've bought from CH before and probably will again if they are still around when the dust settles, but half of their stuff is just... bush league at best. CHs Doom of Malantai placeholder just looks amateurish in comparison to GWs current standard Zoanthrope for example. Tastes vary of course, but its not my cup of tea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "increase in competition" that would result from CH winning. CH doesn't produce their own game or products based on their own IP that is an alternative to GW's.
Basically every point you made for "prefering CH to come out ahead" is ridiculous and irrelevant.

If the case were Privateer Press being sued by GW for IP infringement, your points would have a bit more merit.
But let's face it; this isn't a case of two competing companies having at it over a contested point. It's a company that, for a simplistic animal analogy, is a remora clinging to a shark. As long as they don't anger the shark or get in the shark's way, they don't get ate up and they remain happily fed. If they get in the shark's way...they become the shark's next meal.

I'm taking it that this is your long-winded way of saying "I hope GW skull-feths CH until they bleed money!", right?

I'm taking it that this is your expected attempt at snark.

Anyways, back to reemphasizing the point I made in the post you quoted.

There is no way that GW considers Chapterhouse "competition" in the same sense that they would Privateer Press.

I simply pointed out that the poster whose statement I was replying to was delusional. Chapterhouse isn't a "competing game system". They're leeching upon GW's game system for their customer base.

If this was GW trying to strongarm Privateer Press or Infinity out of existence? Then it would be a completely different situation, and I'd be thoroughly pissed off.

My vote's on GW. Chapterhouse is a parasite, and will likely be forced out of business by the current legal action. I will shed no tears.

give me C.H.A.P.T.E.R.H.O.U.S.E gooooo Chapterhouse...and yes I'm on my meds right now

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:give me C.H.A.P.T.E.R.H.O.U.S.E gooooo Chapterhouse...and yes I'm on my meds right now

Oh wow. Please report to the OT Thread (here on Dakka) about red flags.

filbert wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

No that's not what I am saying at all. I was responding to Mr Mystery's post (hence the quote which you missed out) in which he mentioned that GW wouldn't necessarily embark on potentially costly legal effort without good reason. My point in response being that GW can afford to do so because I suspect they have an entire legal department employed to do just that, unlike CH who will probably end up going bankrupt even if they should 'win' the case.

Ok thanks for clarifying that...... I do want GW to win this lawsuit but your bring up a worrying point and I really don't know how I feel about it in this context or any other. Because it does bring up a very worrying issue. You shouldn't win a lawsuit just because you have more money.

I'm not strongly invested in either side, though as long as Chapterhouse isn't making models identical to anything GW produces I'm inclined to root for them simply because they're the underdog.

But what I find interesting about all of this IP protection on GW's part is that GW works so hard to create the impression that their product is the entirety of miniature wargaming. They have even called it "The Games Workshop Hobby" in print IIRC. No company bigs up their competitors, but I often get the impression GW would like me to believe that their competitors don't exist. And when they work that hard to pretend that no one else in the hobby exists, I am inclined to think that's in conflict with vigorously protecting their IP.

They're bullies. Plain and simple.

I think part of it is caused by the fact Blizzard ripped off of both of their universes and got away with it. I can't imagine that GW is all too happy watching WAR fail while WoW rakes in stacks of cash that could've been theirs.

I think it has a lot to do with them starting to release entire models meant to be specific codex entries. See the following link to a Doom of Malantai model that they posted on 6 December.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/news/29-dooms-day-is-near

Seems to me that GW decided enough was enough.

Yeah, releasing specific models like that is idiotic and infringes on IP rights.

Releasing alternate shoulder pads and stuff like that is fine. Stand alone models is a whole other ballgame.

I voted for Chapterhouse because companies like Verlinden have been making alternate parts and detail parts for Tamiiya and Dragon companies armor model kits for years. And those companies get along just fine. They are filling in a niche that GW must have decided is too small to exploit.

snurl wrote:I voted for Chapterhouse because companies like Verlinden have been making alternate parts and detail parts for Tamiiya and Dragon companies armor model kits for years. And those companies get along just fine. They are filling in a niche that GW must have decided is too small to exploit.

Tamiya and Dragon do not have the IP rights to any of the models they make. The armor models they make are actual real things they did not make up. That makes this two very different issues and your analogy is rather poor.

Much as I want CH to, I can't see it happening.

Are there any circumstances under which the owners / operators of an LLC can be held financially liable?

Amaya wrote:Yeah, releasing specific models like that is idiotic and infringes on IP rights.

Releasing alternate shoulder pads and stuff like that is fine. Stand alone models is a whole other ballgame.

I'll agree with this. Chapterhouse crosses the line on some occasions, but for the most part, I think that the odd shoulder pad bitz set isn't the most heinous of crimes. Still, Chapterhouse has been rather stupid with their phrasing. It seems possible to me to sell "space armour shoulder plates" with generic iconography, but not to sell parts listed as specific 40k bitz. Chapterhouse is infringing on GW's IP, but can avoid the issue by being more discreet.

brettz123 wrote:Are there any circumstances under which the owners / operators of an LLC can be held financially liable?

The rules are similar to piercing the corporate veil, which is to say pretty damn hard. You'd need to show either a pretty major breach of fiduciary duty, or else show that the owners were actively engaging in fraud or other crimes.

This would certainly fall under the business judgment rule, which basically says that the courts aren't going to second guess a companies strategy.

I hadn't seen that doom thing before. It's...interesting.

Well, from a strict law standpoint, gw probably has grounds for a copyright infringement lawsuit. Although, conversion parts are great, and I think that if gw doesn't even produce parts for many variants of their kits (i.e. ig Medusa etc) then someone will start doing so.

Let me start this by saying I have been playing GW games since the RT days. I support GW by buying there product unless it is ridiculously priced like paying $20 for a meganob or a ogryn, this is too high to pay for a unit that numbers 10 models that unit runs $200, when other like units terminators run half that. If I want To adorn My GW models with after market items IE conversion kits to reproduce things GW are not making at this time so be it. I Hope Chapter House win this case and don't go under because they might be riding the coattails of GW. GW rode on some coattails to get where they are Giger Robert Hinelen Tolkien and many others. If they loose the case I can see them going after the other 3rd party manufacturers for possible squishing.

@ kan if you can provide a clear picture in the nid codex showing what a bug drop pod actually looks like and proof that CH ripped off this picture for the pod Sculpted for CH you get a cookie. Cause I can't find one to duplicate for my Homemade pods.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

I hope CH comes out ahead. They make a good product.
CH also give players some nice options for their minis

I agree that it is entirely possible that CH has received and ignored C&D notices.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

This is actually completely different. They are making a storage product for all miniatures. Do they use specific terminology on some of their shapes? Yep. But they aren't using iconography or producing something GW itself produces or is an add-on to GW product. It's a seperate product entirely which is also the distinction (at least I think )

In regards to the thread I voted GW. Like I said in the other thread if CH hadn't kept teasing the dog thru the fence without realizing they were actually digging a hole for it to get them thru then this wouldn't be a problem. There is a reason that other websites don't show their bitz on GW products even if they are meant for it. Which, on a side note, is where they got Paulson I think who got thrown in because his dread claws and tyrannid (i mean alien) weapon bitz are actually up for release soon and could be proven to impact sales not to mention if they have TWC in the pipe.

Oh and it might have helped that maybe GW didn't use up all their time with their lawyers and wanted to get the most out of them before year closing and so filed the suit now. On the other hand I don't know what schedule they follow for their business year or how they retain their lawyers so this is just a thought. Not stating it's the way it went down

Hulk: here's a serious question for you: do you feel that GW has actually been damaged by CH? Meaning, if CH didn't "tease the dog," GW would be in a better financial position?

If so, than the motive doesn't seem to matter, only if what they did was legal.

If not, than why care?

I feel that with the rumored Tervigon kit set to release as well as the possible tyrannid bio-weapon upgrade that is also rumoured that yes. GW could have been financially impacted by CH and yes that a third party producing them could impact GW.

They release a codex. This year's sprue space only allows for this many models released for this army. Next year there is sprue space for, ex., a tervigon. Now people have purchased tervigon kits from CH and those that purchase this seperately, instead of just converting an existing model, will probably be less inclined to purchase GW's model not to mention that it's possible they might have to adjust it while in progress to not look like CH's. Costing them more money.

It's a hypothetical example honestly based on upcoming rumours but I feel this is why these two companies are getting hit. Stuff they were producing is directly related to releases in the next year or so. That and that they advertised (previous to the suit) their bitz on GW models on their website. Using what I assume is GW IP to sell their parts and increasing the "official" looking nature of the bitz.

So yes, I feel they have financially harmed GW. And that by "teasing the dog" so to speak that GW was already aware of them and that certain recent kits have put it over the edge. If they hadn't teased GW wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but they couldn't help themselves and now the dog is loose.

I'm not a lawyer and I realize that there is a lot of different nuances as to how this can play out. I know nothing about IP law, trademarks, or registering them. I look forward to seeing where this goes and have read most of what Janth and you have said with interest as Janth does this stuff for a living apparently (didn't know what kind of lawyer he was till now) and you also generally present a reasoned stance.

Oh, and I don't really have a dog in this fight. I was tempted to pick up some Pre-heresy Thousand Son pads for when the GK's come out and still might. I'm just interested in the outcome though my personal opinion is that GW is in the right in the main. Now that is completely based on what I've read so far and personal interpretation.

Agamemnon2 wrote:My vote's on GW. Chapterhouse is a parasite, and will likely be forced out of business by the current legal action. I will shed no tears.

Would you call Goodyear, Bridgestone and Michelin parasites because they feed on car customer's needs?
Would you call all aftermarket products illegal and worth to be forced out of business?
Are you aware that in all legal systems, aftermarket products are not illegal per se?

Hulksmash wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

This is actually completely different. They are making a storage product for all miniatures. Do they use specific terminology on some of their shapes? Yep. But they aren't using iconography or producing something GW itself produces or is an add-on to GW product. It's a seperate product entirely which is also the distinction (at least I think )

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440149a&rootCatGameStyle=gaming-accessories

@Kroothawk

I think you missed my point. Foam cases have been around since before GW. They didn't patent foam cases for miniatures and has nothing to do with their IP. That is where the difference is I believe. Not to mention that Battlefoam uses different sizes and measurements than GW so I don't think it's even an issue in that sense. It's kinda hard to patent a 1"x2" foam rectangle.

Hulk: the problem is that I think the tervigon kit isn't in any way a violation of GW's IP. There is no model, so they cant' dupe it. You'd be hard pressed to call any 3D sculpt a duplicate of a pen and ink sketch, especially given how much of the iconic parts (head, legs) are from the plastic kit anyway.

IP law, as far as I understand it, allows you create stuff that's pretty damn similar as long as you don't copy it directly. Alas, the question of if CH's tervigon kit infringes is a jury issue. 8 people off the street will figure that out. But the fact that it's hard to tell how similar they look (again, a sculpt vs. pen and ink drawing) is only going to make it tougher to prove that they're exact. I mean, when you have more detail and material than the thing you're allegedly copying, what are you really copying?

As hobbiests, we know what a GW mini should look like. Despite never seeing an official jetbike warlock model, we know what they should be. But that's not a copyright violation IMO: that's just understanding a visual style.

They didn't copyright arrows, fists, dragons and wolves either.
BTW GW started with a range of aftermarket products for D&D, back in the days when WD was an independent miniature and RPG magazine.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kroothawk

I think you missed my point. Foam cases have been around since before GW. They didn't patent foam cases for miniatures and has nothing to do with their IP. That is where the difference is I believe. Not to mention that Battlefoam uses different sizes and measurements than GW so I don't think it's even an issue in that sense. It's kinda hard to patent a 1"x2" foam rectangle.

But this is the point: different kinds of foam cases are ok, as long as they're not identical. Why aren't different Space Alien Brood Mothers ok? Especially since there is only one?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

insaniak wrote:Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

Except they wouldn't, because the majority of 40K players aren't like us and they know that. They know that the majority won't even know that these 3rd Party Groups exist, and will buy anything that's official (just look at the Defiler as an example of this - everyone made their own before it was released, and once it hit shelves, everyone went and bought them anyway).

Right now, sure. But if they wait until these little businesses grow to a point where they are actually a serious immediate threat, they're likely to have missed their chance to actually do something about it...

Kroothawk wrote:Would you call Goodyear, Bridgestone and Michelin parasites because they feed on car customer's needs?

They most certainly fit the definition. If we all woke up tomorrow in a world without wheeled vehicles, those three companies would suddenly have no market for their core product. They exist solely because of all the other companies out there making vehicles that their tyres fit onto.

The word 'parasite' is easily seen to have negative connotations, (although in the interests of keeping the discussion civil, I would ask that people try to keep in mind the usual disclaimers about tone not being conveyed in the written medium, and not try to add inflammatory meaning that isn't actually there in what you're reading) but it is an apt description of any business that exists solely to feed off another company's market.

BTW have a look at this Battlefoam page:
http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=11
Then count the non-marked GW IP references of these GW aftermarket products.
I think it is of exactly the same if not worse level as the former Chapterhouse website.

Hulksmash wrote:I feel that with the rumored Tervigon kit set to release as well as the possible tyrannid bio-weapon upgrade that is also rumoured that yes. GW could have been financially impacted by CH and yes that a third party producing them could impact GW.

They release a codex. This year's sprue space only allows for this many models released for this army. Next year there is sprue space for, ex., a tervigon. Now people have purchased tervigon kits from CH and those that purchase this seperately, instead of just converting an existing model, will probably be less inclined to purchase GW's model not to mention that it's possible they might have to adjust it while in progress to not look like CH's. Costing them more money.

The tervigon set is something which is clearly not an infringement of IP. There isn't a model to be copied and it doesn't look especially like the sketch. Also, it hasn't cost GW anything since it requires the purchase of a GW kit to build.

If CH were offering it as a complete model then it might cost GW some sales. But then it would be an entirely original model that players may choose to use as a substitute and there is nothing that GW could do about it.

RiTides wrote:

Da Boss wrote:My hope is that the outcome is something reasonable, like CH using generic terms and avoiding the use of GW specific bits and kits in their advertising.

Voice of reason... is that you??

(But seriously, that's what I hope for, too)

this is my hope as well. I really like the CH stuff and the idea of 3rd party companies making bits. In a perfect world I'd like to see GW find a way to still protect there IP while also working closer with these 3rd party type companies.

@Polonius

Because they didn't label it a Alien Brood Mother

That's pretty much my stance on it. If they hadn't labelled things like they did on their sight (i.e. tervigon, doom, mycetic (sp?) spore) then I would say GW was in the wrong. However marketing them as GW named products is why I feel like GW is coming after them and where they stepped over the line.

@Kroothawk

GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon". GW can't claim they invented foam. I see it as a distinction but I could be wrong. Battlefoam doesn't have a single 40k related image on it's website (that I can recall) where as chapterhouse had quite a few including that picture with the walker w/tau models underneath it.

Oddly if you type in Space Marine Shoulder Pad Chapterhouse is #3 on bing. If you type in space marine miniature case battle foam isn't even on the first page (nor is it if you do 40k instead of space marine). The only time BF shows up on page #1 is if you type in 40k foam case. I think this also has something to do with it. Battlefoam isn't piggybacking GW the way that CH is and it would be almost impossible to prove that people think it's official GW product or that they have taken a loss.

I guess we'll see if GW goes after BF but I don't see that truly happening. And I wouldn't be surprised if BF had spoke w/GW before doing anything. I thought I heard something about that back when they were getting started but I could be wrong and often am.

Again, all of the above is just personal opinion.

@Scott

Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

Honestly I'm just in it for good discussion either way.

Didn't Battlefoam run into IP issues when they mooted (or actually did it, I'm not sure) etching Imperial Aquila and other GW type icons into their foam?

Yeah, I thought they initially thought they were getting permission and when it didn't come thru they pulled the etching of non-custom icons into their product.

Thought so - I guess that's where the line is drawn. There's nothing to say you can't muscle into the market where there is a niche to be exploited; just you can't go around using GW terminology and imagery to sell your stuff.

I guess if they rebranded everything Space Elf and Alien Brood etc then all would have been good.

Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Hulksmash wrote:@Polonius

Because they didn't label it a Alien Brood Mother

That's pretty much my stance on it. If they hadn't labelled things like they did on their sight (i.e. tervigon, doom, mycetic (sp?) spore) then I would say GW was in the wrong. However marketing them as GW named products is why I feel like GW is coming after them and where they stepped over the line.

So what? You can't cant' claim that CH is ripping off the GW Tervigon when there isn't a GW tervigon. It's sticky, as GW has this idea of a large brood mother, and describes it, but hasn't made one. I think this is where common law trademark kicks in, because they didn't register it, but again, you can only trademark a fairly specific use. So the rules for a tervigon, or the sketch. But the model for one might be a grayer area.

I'll definitely agree that calling it a "brood mother conversion kit" would have been wiser.

Well, if the C&D said to cease and desist making the parts they're making... no, I can't blame them for ignoring it.

The "I told you so's" bother me a bit in this... if you never wanted to make 3rd party parts for GW games, you wouldn't be in this situation (and aren't). CH has decided to, and has decided to persist in it, and it's up to the courts (or lawyers via settlement) to decide it now.

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Well yes and no; I still think GW are being a little heavy handed about it all. I can't help think they would foster a better spirit and better customer relations (and ultimately more sales) if they tried to engage and cooperate with the community and 3rd party vendors rather than treating them like red-headed step-children.

filbert wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Well yes and no; I still think GW are being a little heavy handed about it all. I can't help think they would foster a better spirit and better customer relations (and ultimately more sales) if they tried to engage and cooperate with the community and 3rd party vendors rather than treating them like red-headed step-children.

There is no money, only hassle and loss of control, to be had in working with small companies like CH. GW wasn't going to license them or anything, it'd be stupid of them.

License no, tolerate maybe - especially if GW had decided that the custom shoulder pads market was too small for them to bother with.

I couldn't really decide. I like chapter house. But I like GW.
I like Chapter Houses stuff and I like GW's stuff.
....
I cannot decide.

Asherian Command wrote:I couldn't really decide. I like chapter house. But I like GW.
I like Chapter Houses stuff and I like GW's stuff.
....
I cannot decide.

Let me help:

If GW wins, chapterhouse is likely to fold.

If chapter house wins, GW is probably not going to change anything.

If the case is settled, than chapter house will likely be able to produce some or most of the models, but market them differently.

Then chapter house.

@Polonius

I recognize it as a grey area. I just know how my vote would come down on a jury in regards to this in any industry without a prescedent to point to. Just personal opinion really

@Rtides

I would depend on what the C&D, if it exists, said. But it all really could have been avoided if they didn't wave it in GW's face.

In general,

I'm hoping they manage to settle out and that GW accepts the name change and removal of all GW related advertisement info from the site and allows CH to continue but with some models removed.

These are basically my views on this:

brettz123 wrote:I think it has a lot to do with them starting to release entire models meant to be specific codex entries. See the following link to a Doom of Malantai model that they posted on 6 December.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/news/29-dooms-day-is-near

Seems to me that GW decided enough was enough.

Kanluwen wrote:There is no way that GW considers Chapterhouse "competition" in the same sense that they would Privateer Press.

I simply pointed out that the poster whose statement I was replying to was delusional. Chapterhouse isn't a "competing game system". They're leeching upon GW's game system for their customer base.

If this was GW trying to strongarm Privateer Press or Infinity out of existence? Then it would be a completely different situation, and I'd be thoroughly pissed off.

Mastiff wrote:

Amaya wrote:Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

Except that Chapterhouse generally produces lower quality product. Not bad work, but soft edges on items that should be crisp, inconsistent detail and symmetry. The work is very good when it comes to biological (ie. Tyranid) stuff that is very forgiving on these points. But it's not at the same level as GW final product. (yes, I fully admit GW has released some utter abominations).

EDIT: Also, what Redbeard said below.

....
I don't WANT Games Workshop to win, but I believe they have a strong case and are CORRECT in these grounds, particularly when Chapterhouse displays/advertises their models/parts on Games Workshop models or releases models that ARE specific GW unit entries (eg. DoM).
I wouldn't mind at all, Chapterhouse existing and providing parts such as Shoulder Pads, Heresy-era jump packs and various conversion kits that GW don't cater for and in essence support Games Workshop (in a way) in that consumers need to own the Game Workshop MODELS before using the chapterhouse PARTS.

As I said, I don't WANT Chapterhouse to hit the dust, nor do I WANT Gamesworkshop to win, but I believe in this circumstance GW is right in their claims.

I want GW to win this one. I'm all in favour of after-market stuff in general. I buy parts for my Harley from after-market companies, I buy after-market guitar parts, and have bought other after-market hobby stuff.

But, in this case, I believe chapterhouse went too far in using GW IP. I make my living in the IP world, and I simply cannot support anyone that I believe is violating someone elses rights like this. They need to be a lot smarter about what they're making and how they're selling it.

Wouldn't the 'reference material' for the tervigon be the sketch I've heard is in the Tyranid Codex?

It sounds kind of like how I've heard 'Reverse Engineering' has to be done to be 'clean'. In that field, engineering an electronic component to replace an existing widget, one team dissassembles the component to be duplicated, writes detailed specifications, then hands the specs to another team that implements them.


In this specific case, I'd guess the sketch (which I haven't seen) could count as protected material and would be treated the same as if CH had sculpted almost-but-not-quite copies of GW models.

On the other hand, if they worked off the description, giving it their own spin, that's fine with me.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, certainly not the judge in the case.

Hulksmash wrote:Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

No argument on that - I think that is EXACTLY what has got them into this position.

Compare to these guys: http://www.the2blackdragons.com/english/hauptseiten/black_dragons_english.htm They're very careful not to use trademarks.
Dark Elves = Elves of the Night
Skaven = Ratmen
etc

Hulksmash wrote:@Kroothawk
GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon". GW can't claim they invented foam. I see it as a distinction but I could be wrong. Battlefoam doesn't have a single 40k related image on it's website (that I can recall) where as chapterhouse had quite a few including that picture with the walker w/tau models underneath it.

Do I get you right:
1.) Naming a product a "Tervigon conversion kit" is illegal and stupid and parasitic, because GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon" (plus perhaps can claim to have invented toy soldiers but not foam).
2.) Naming a product "DARK ELDAR WYCHES FOAM TRAY" ( http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?item=471&catid=11&ret=catalog.php%3Fcategory%3D11 ) is okay, because that name is obviously generic with no connection to GW products.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

No argument on that - I think that is EXACTLY what has got them into this position.

Compare to these guys: http://www.the2blackdragons.com/english/hauptseiten/black_dragons_english.htm They're very careful not to use trademarks.
Dark Elves = Elves of the Night
Skaven = Ratmen
etc

bad example, first thing I clicked on, Chaos had "pick your preferred god" with the five GW symbols as the links

Edit: cool minis though

As much as I don't want GW to win, as I think some of CH stuff is really good (I love the heresy marine heads), but I think they will. It's a shame really, if GW did not charge so much for their stuff more people would be able to buy and take part in such a wonderful hobby.

Hopefully an agreement can be made where they let them re-name their products, but CH have been a little silly compared to other 3rd party companies.

If GW do win I hope they don't use it as an excuse to try and take out all 3rd party companies as some of the stuff that done is really good and gives variety to the game(s) as a whole and quite frankly would just suck the fun out of the hobby.

I have to laugh at one of GW's points as someone mentioned early in this thread

Scott-S6 wrote:
3. Chapterhouse shouldn't be allowed to sell bits because it makes it harder for us to possibly sell those bits in the future if we decide to get around to it - absolutely ridiculous.

As if GW plan on making every single bit for all their fluff...not a chance...and not able to sell it again ridiculous, alot of people buy gw stuff, I do not, direct as its cheaper, but generally GW stuff is better.

@Kroothawk

First off don't put words in my mouth. I never called them parasitic or said it was illegal. I've been pretty firmly on the side of the courts will decide but that I think GW is in the right but that this is a grey area.

Secondly read everything instead of cherry picking. It's the combined use of imagery and names that have landed CH in this. Well that and creating whole models for currently unmade models from GW publications.

But I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be. Perhaps you could explain your position on this whole thing Kroot instead of sniping at people who are willing to discuss it?

@Hulksmash:
Well, I did it extensively in the other thread, but here you are:

1.) What is really going on is blurred by the fact that GW's lawyers have obviously no idea what they are talking about ("Carniflex", sueing the wrong sculptor, claiming the Superheavy is a copy of a GW product). As seems usual for US lawsuits, they throw everything they can imagine at whoever they make out as a target, hoping that the others are shocked and awed, settle this out of court and do things they are not legally bound to do. Given the US law system favoring the rich, this might work.

2.) GW's legal position seems to be that all conversions are illegal in principle, but not sued if done with GW parts and for private use only. This position and this specific lawsuit imply that GW sees every aftermarket for their products as illegal and endangering "the hobby". I am convinced that they can't convince any court that an aftermarket is illegal per se, even if they claim their plastic toy soldiers to be luxury products or art.

3.) The aftermarket enriches "the hobby", provides many products GW will never make and some, GW will eventually make. Some people started 1000 Sons or Salamander armies just because of non-GW bitz making it possible, with GW profiting the most. Even non-GW Tervigon or HPA models are used in GW armies, with most people preferring the official model or even buy it in addition to the unofficial one (being usable for tourney, better fitting the official design and often even being cheaper). Personally I have 2 non-GW HPAs and will buy the GW one as well, same with the Tervigon. Claiming that the dominant GW has any economic damage by the aftermarket is ridiculous. The opposite is true. BTW, GW started with aftermarket products for D&D.

4.) It is a hobby that should encourage creativity among kids and adults, the more the better. Sending lawyers out to bully around, hunt down small aftermarket companies and decrease the diversity of "the hobby" is not helpfull and eventually damaging GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer.

5.) Of course GW has a right to sue copies of their products and designs. In Germany, it takes at least 10% creative changes to make it not a copy. Chapterhouse products show considerable more creativity than that or use generic non-copyrighted symbols like arrows, fists, dragons or wolves. I don't care how the products are called and how much TM, C, or other signs are added, as long as the products are available. As only advanced gamers use these parts, there is absolutely no danger of mixing it up with official products, whatever they are called. Same with Battlefoam and all other aftermarket companies.

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

Kroothawk wrote:

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

This is what I have been trying to say, albeit 100% more eloquently. Cheers Kroot! The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW have a look at this Battlefoam page:
http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=11
Then count the non-marked GW IP references of these GW aftermarket products.
I think it is of exactly the same if not worse level as the former Chapterhouse website.

Depends what we're counting as "IP references".....

Dark Eldar - 6 times, including sub-section heading. Actual trademark, according to the legal page on GW. No indication of TM being used.
Hellion - 2 times.
Reaver jetbike - 2 times.
Jetbike - 1 time. 3 times if you include "Reaver jetbike" in the count.
Raider - 2 times.
Talo - 1 time. Guessing plural for Talos? Not sure if this counts as an IP reference, as I don't have the DE book to check.
Raveger - 1 time. Due to an inability to spell, Battlefoam are OK on this one.
Wyches - 1 time.

Dark Eldar was the only one I spotted on the GW Legal pages as a specified trademark.

Also, at no point does their disclaimer at the bottom of the page reference anything other than Battlefoam's own IP.

filbert wrote:The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Actually, making Space Hulk a limited edition, only sold in GW stores, has lost GW more profit than all aftermarket sales combined

Scott-S6 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

No argument on that - I think that is EXACTLY what has got them into this position.

Compare to these guys: http://www.the2blackdragons.com/english/hauptseiten/black_dragons_english.htm They're very careful not to use trademarks.
Dark Elves = Elves of the Night
Skaven = Ratmen
etc

wow those are really nice miniatures........ skirmishing dual pistol wielding witch hunters...... can't lose with that!

Kroothawk wrote:4.) It is a hobby that should encourage creativity among kids and adults, the more the better. Sending lawyers out to bully around, hunt down small aftermarket companies and decrease the diversity of "the hobby" is not helpfull and eventually damaging GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer.

Here's the thing, though: Couldn't you also say:
Starting a company producing aftermarket parts specifically targeted at the customers of a particular game owned by another company and marketed as being parts for that game by skirting as closely as you can around IP laws, rather than producing a new and unique game and miniatures range of your own decreases the diversity of "the hobby" and is eventually damaging to GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer due to your inferior product being marketed as a part of their game?


That's essentially the angle that GW are taking on this. It's not about stifling creativity. It's about people making things for GW's games when they have no legal right to do so.

The 'hobby' of wargaming is not just about GW. There is an infinite range of possibilities out there for a creative individual to produce science fiction and fantasy miniatures. Building a new and unique game and/or range of miniatures increases diversity in the hobby. Being just another company selling parts for Games Workshop's games does not. It just increases the range of parts available for one particular corner of it.


I should point out that the above isn't intended as a criticism of Chapterhouse, or any other company producing add-ons or miniatures intended for use in GW's games. I'm a fan of all good miniatures, whether new and revolutionary or not. Just trying to put a little perspective on the whole 'stifling creativity and diversity' argument.

Here is why GW will lose this court case

If you allow GW to win, then you set the precedecent of other companies to disallow any third party to make parts for their model.

This is not allowed in the United States....Monopoly rules are here for a reason.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Here is why GW will lose this court case

If you allow GW to win, then you set the precedecent of other companies to disallow any third party to make parts for their model.

This is not allowed in the United States....Monopoly rules are here for a reason.

And again, you're talking ridiculousness.

There's no "monopoly" here. GW makes products for their game systems. They control the IP for their games.

The only way this would be a "monopoly" is if GW somehow was able to prove that no other company was allowed to make tabletop miniature games ever, even if they use non-GW IP.

This is nothing to do with Monopoly rules. Being the only company producing miniatures for your own miniatures game does not make a monopoly... that would require GW controlling the entire miniatures wargaming market.

Kanluwen wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Here is why GW will lose this court case

If you allow GW to win, then you set the precedecent of other companies to disallow any third party to make parts for their model.

This is not allowed in the United States....Monopoly rules are here for a reason.

And again, you're talking ridiculousness.

There's no "monopoly" here. GW makes products for their game systems. They control the IP for their games.

The only way this would be a "monopoly" is if GW somehow was able to prove that no other company was allowed to make tabletop miniature games ever, even if they use non-GW IP.

in that case then....where did you get that avatar??? did you ask GW for premission for that artwork or any other company?

What happen to AT&T.....that right they had to split their company into three diiferent parts.....What about MircoSoft samething happen to them. Don't tell me that is couldn't happen to GW.

Doesn't really matter to me.

I imagine GW is going to win due to company size.


As for CH, most ive ever done is looked, theyve never really released anything that i like.


And its obvious its all based off GW art and models, even using GW models with their bits on them for advertisment to sell theirs.


and yea, not very good poll options, im on the middle of.. doesnt effect me either way.

filbert wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

This is what I have been trying to say, albeit 100% more eloquently. Cheers Kroot! The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Not saying you aren't right that there is enough of the pie to go around..... the point is when I bake a pie I get to decide who eats it not some random other person.

(IF) CH ever create their own base models or even as far as a system for the ( add ons ) they created , i would have some sort of sympathy for the law suit.

But as of right now , arnt most of their add ons made specifically tailored towards GW? which is in direct competition against GW products? ( for example we could be using FW , or kit bash with GW kits )

As a consumer i understand CH do make some products arnt offered by GW... yet that in noway makes them "right"
We can argue all we want about how CH change the name/ look of their products , but im sure all of us know by now CH mirrored units created by GW in their codex...

If GW doesnt exist at all , what would CH be making right now? They certainly wont be able to make majority of the product they have atm. ( of course they probably would be making add ons for the next big game system )
If the consumers and CH really likes the existing product , then do it the right way... get permission from GW. If they cant , then thats unfortunate. But still doesnt make stealing right.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Here is why GW will lose this court case

If you allow GW to win, then you set the precedecent of other companies to disallow any third party to make parts for their model.

This is not allowed in the United States....Monopoly rules are here for a reason.

And again, you're talking ridiculousness.

There's no "monopoly" here. GW makes products for their game systems. They control the IP for their games.

The only way this would be a "monopoly" is if GW somehow was able to prove that no other company was allowed to make tabletop miniature games ever, even if they use non-GW IP.

in that case then....where did you get that avatar??? did you ask GW for premission for that artwork or any other company?

What happen to AT&T.....that right they had to split their company into three diiferent parts.....What about MircoSoft samething happen to them. Don't tell me that is couldn't happen to GW.

Umm dude just because you don't get it I will lay it out for you....... AT&T was broken up because it controlled pretty much all of the telephone lines in the United States (no really like all of them) that means no other telephone companies. And actually nothing happened to Microsoft. Look it up they "lost" their case sort of and didn't have to really change anything.

Now are you ready for the difference? GW is not even close to the only miniature company you can buy miniatures from. Perhaps you have never heard of:

Mantic
Privateer Press
Wargames Foundry
Old Glory
Battlefront Miniatures
Immortal Miniatures
Crusader
Wizards of the Coast
RAFM
Conquest Miniatures
GHQ
Navwar

do I really need to go on?

I hope that both parties can some to an agreement in which Chapterhouse Studios are able to continue providing us with quality third party parts and where GW is able to protect their IP. I think that the world is big enough for the both of them to continue to exist and fuel our hobby.

insaniak wrote:Here's the thing, though: Couldn't you also say:
Starting a company producing aftermarket parts specifically targeted at the customers of a particular game owned by another company and marketed as being parts for that game by skirting as closely as you can around IP laws, rather than producing a new and unique game and miniatures range of your own decreases the diversity of "the hobby" and is eventually damaging to GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer due to your inferior product being marketed as a part of their game?

That's essentially the angle that GW are taking on this. It's not about stifling creativity. It's about people making things for GW's games when they have no legal right to do so.

Counterquestion: Should all computer game companies sell their games together with their own computer operating system?

1.) I don't care if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, Mantic, Avatars of War and who else invent another small skirmishing game, often written by a former GW employee. I use their miniatures for Warhammer and 40k (plus RPGs). Not every local gaming community is large enough to have enough gamers for 15 different tabletop rule sets (or people rich enough to buy rules for 15 different games and good enough to memorize all of them). GW games are the most widely spread standard for tabletop games, whether they are perfect or not. So I use these.

2.) I buy a lot non-GW models and conversion parts. And that is not to save money, as I also use Forge World models. I buy them for their quality and creative achievement. This includes products I bought from Chapterhouse. I can assure you that some have better quality than GW or FW products. Hey, even Daniel Cockersell from Forge World made a Chimera for Maelstrom Games in line with Beatman and Skaven monster stand-ins, probably because higher up managers prohibited it to be sold within GW/FW/Warhammer Forge.

3.) If you think that noone has the legal right to sell aftermarket products, look at the tires of your car and think again. Saying that Goodyear should build its own cars instead of leeching on Ford's popularity is not a valid argument nor even a sound legal advice.

Kroothawk wrote:Counterquestion: Should all computer game companies sell their games together with their own computer operating system?

If their intention in selling computer software was to encourage diversity, then most certainly they should. I suspect that's not the intention of most video game creators, though.

I can assure you that some have better quality than GW or FW products.

FWIW, I've never claimed that everything not made by GW is inferior.

3.) If you think that noone has the legal right to sell aftermarket products, ...

I don't. But I'm willing to take the comments from several lawyers in this thread that it's a murky area in the law as a sign that it's a murky area in the law.

According to lawyers all areas of law are murky.

I really don't see the issue with just selling aftermarket goods that require a product from X company that X company does not produce. Everyone benefits.

The issue with CHS is that they are making stand alone products and using copyrighted images.

i want gw to win because if they lose they might have to close stores or stop making models and that would be bad

goldlinkdawg wrote:i want gw to win because if they lose they might have to close stores or stop making models and that would be bad

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm fairly sure that the odds of this happening are tiny at best.

Amaya wrote:According to lawyers all areas of law are murky.
I really don't see the issue with just selling aftermarket goods that require a product from X company that X company does not produce. Everyone benefits.
The issue with CHS is that they are making stand alone products and using copyrighted images.

Well, there is no question that selling aftermarket products is NOT illegal per se.

And AFAIK there are only 2 stand alone products by CHS currently, and both don't resemble anything by GW.
And I am not aware of any GW copyrighted image on the CHS website.

Kroothawk wrote:

filbert wrote:The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Actually, making Space Hulk a limited edition, only sold in GW stores, has lost GW more profit than all aftermarket sales combined

In the words of former British Prime Minister...put up or shut up. Or at least admit you asertation is merely personal opinion?

Mr Mystery wrote:In the words of former British Prime Minister...put up or shut up. Or at least admit you asertation is merely personal opinion?

Well, difficult to give exact numbers of an alternative timeline.
But doubling customer numbers outside UK with standard marketing tools is a piece of cake.
Just ask how many veterans were drawn into 40k by last editions Space Hulk/Space Crusade. MB's marketing worked!
And it's no secret that current creative staff feels hog-tied by higher management.

Need another example: Dissolving Black Industries when their newest product line (Dark Heresy) just sold out before release. Now IIRC second biggest RPG line. Also millions of certain dollars lost for no reason at all. Instead they spend huge resources for keeping sales limited to a small declining niche, firing good people left and right just to prevent natural growth of the market.

Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.

Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.

I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.

I rolled a D6, on a 4+ GW should win.

It was a 5....

Was it a GW die?

Eldanar wrote:Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.

Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.

I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.

How so?

GW only has a monopoly on GW games and thats it, and thats all they seem to want. They do nothing unfair or stifling to PP, Malifaux or any other TTG company.

Comparing GW's situation with Microsofts would be more accurate if : GW was making gaming tables and was the damn near sole provider of said tables and manufacturing them to somehow prevent other gaming systems from operating on those tables, thereby "stifling" competition. Microsoft didn't get busted by the DOJ for being too big, but too controlling at the expense of the competition to the point where they literally couldn't compete.

Wanting complete control on your own product is not monopolistic or stifling to competition who make product of a similiar nature (Ie other game companies).

Eldanar wrote:Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.

Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.

I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.

Except it's a terribly wrong analogy.

Microsoft was broken up because of packaging their browser and OS with computer bundles, and making it virtually impossible for the computers to run without them.

GW is not forcing you to play Warhammer or 40k or Lord of the Rings if you want to play a miniatures game.

This is more equivalent to the Xbox 360 v. PS3 v. Nintendo Wii. They're each completely separate systems, with completely different benefits.

Again:
There is no monopoly claim, at all, that is valid in this case. GW does not own the genre of "Tabletop Wargaming". They own Warhammer/40k/LOTR and the models/properties associated with those game systems and universes.

What I don't get is why GW hasn't embraced the good aftermarket modelers, particularly for conversion kits for models GW doesn't produce. After all, one of the biggest problems facing GW is that they don't have the resources to design good models for all of their ranges in the time frame that the players want. So rather than fight the "parasites" who fill in the gaps, why not embrace them in a way that allows GW some control of what's going on?

They could create an official licensing system. Licensed aftermarket modelers could get permission to use GW IP in exchange maybe for very small royalties and veto authority over designs (so that no one can make a design that threatens the company's image like an overly graphic mini or a mini of terrible quality, and so that no one makes a model of a product GW is planning to release in the next month or so).

These licensed suppliers could even be sold in GW stores at the discretion of the manager (depending on space) but they would "count as" GW products for the purposes of entry in official GW-sponsored tournaments. Officially licensed after-marketers could even be promoted by GW employees when customers are looking for a model that GW does not produce but an aftermarket company does. That would give companies some incentive to join the program while keeping GW in control of their IP, and I imagine the lost sales to GW would be minimal. It could even grow their sales if GW encouraged the right models.

They could even make a clause in the agreement where aftermarket models of truly exceptional quality can be bought outright by GW and made into official models, and if a particular licensed sculptor consistently puts out work of exceptional quality they could be invited to join the team. It could become a system where GW is effectively training sculptors without paying for it, getting the holes in their lines filled for free, and getting more kits sold because players need them for conversions with aftermarket parts. Meanwhile licensed sculptors may lose a couple percent of sales revenue in royalty fees, but they could have the freedom to operate without being sued and their product would have an official connection with GW allowing them greater exposure and basically doing their advertising for them. It frees sculptors who love the GW IP to work to make the hobby better, with the hope of one day making an awesome model that becomes an official GW product with a big payoff.

It's win-win-win. Good for GW, good for the aftermarket people, and good for the customers.

Or GW could just sue everyone.

JOHIRA wrote:What I don't get is why GW hasn't embraced the good aftermarket modelers, particularly for conversion kits for models GW doesn't produce. After all, one of the biggest problems facing GW is that they don't have the resources to design good models for all of their ranges in the time frame that the players want. So rather than fight the "parasites" who fill in the gaps, why not embrace them in a way that allows GW some control of what's going on?

They did. They started on off-shoot company specifically to release cool aftermarket parts, vehicle variants and collectibles that fall outside the scope of GW's normal production schedule. They called it 'Forgeworld'...

Third-party licensing is an option, but would have its own headaches.

I don't hope for any side. Thats silly. However, chapterhouse was in the wrong making money of GW's ideas. Tough.

insaniak wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:What I don't get is why GW hasn't embraced the good aftermarket modelers, particularly for conversion kits for models GW doesn't produce. After all, one of the biggest problems facing GW is that they don't have the resources to design good models for all of their ranges in the time frame that the players want. So rather than fight the "parasites" who fill in the gaps, why not embrace them in a way that allows GW some control of what's going on?

They did. They started on off-shoot company specifically to release cool aftermarket parts, vehicle variants and collectibles that fall outside the scope of GW's normal production schedule. They called it 'Forgeworld'...

Forgeworld isn't exactly the same thing though, because Forgeworld is part of GW. Besides, isn't it against the rules now for Forgeworld to produce any model that's already in the codex?

I would assume not, it's more Forgeworld has it's own plans. After all, they still release Dreadnoughts.

But as for a Third Party, Licensed Company. As an idea it's certainly interesting, but I can see a few problems with it. First up. you have to pay for the license. I don't see GW letting that one for for Peanuts. This means it would have to be someone with significant capital. And GW would no doubt want their cut of the money coming in. And the quality would be demanding. Not just any machine, it would have to be of similar quality to GW's. So whilst it's not a bad idea, I'm not sure it's terribly practical.

And now for an analogy. GW is like a Parent, trying to satisfy a couple of dozen very spoiled children (bare with!). Sure, you can ask a few of them what they want for dinner, and they'll be happy, but then there'll be some who didn't want that for dinner, and kick off over it. They literally cannot make everyone happy. The comparisson to spoiled children is to give you an idea of the demands made, rather than looking to insult anyone!

Voted GW

We all know that lots of companies exist to make extra parts for 40k, even though they name their parts 'heads for Generic Space Knights' and the like.

Chapterhouse, while they make some nice stuff, have always been pretty cheeky and rubbed what they do in GWs face, so I don't blame GW for being pissed off...

Mr Mystery wrote:But as for a Third Party, Licensed Company. As an idea it's certainly interesting, but I can see a few problems with it. First up. you have to pay for the license. I don't see GW letting that one for for Peanuts. This means it would have to be someone with significant capital. And GW would no doubt want their cut of the money coming in. And the quality would be demanding. Not just any machine, it would have to be of similar quality to GW's. So whilst it's not a bad idea, I'm not sure it's terribly practical.

That's pretty much it.

Although in the midst of all people asking why GW don't go the third-part licensing route, I would be curious as to whether any of the small businesses out there making parts aimed at the GW crowd ever actually asked GW about it...

Did GW ask Fox Studios to make an Aliens board game called SpaceHulk with inferior copies of Giger's Aliens, just to leech on Aliens' popularity?

BTW GW DID go this third party licencing route once, when GW made almost no vehicles and a.o. Forge World USA got a licence. They were too successful, so GW retracted the licence, and in the end even stole the name of the licensee.

insaniak wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Counterquestion: Should all computer game companies sell their games together with their own computer operating system?

If their intention in selling computer software was to encourage diversity, then most certainly they should. I suspect that's not the intention of most video game creators, though.

That would not encourage diversity. By creating a larger barrier for entry it would stifle diversity. Just as suggesting that everyone that wants to make models should have their own game system would do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

goldlinkdawg wrote:i want gw to win because if they lose they might have to close stores or stop making models and that would be bad

Why would that possibly be the case?

Kroothawk wrote:Did GW ask Fox Studios to make an Aliens board game called SpaceHulk with inferior copies of Giger's Aliens, just to leech on Aliens' popularity?

Funny. GW were almost sued over Genestealers, until they pointed out the entirely subtle differences....like the hunched stand. Four arms. Lack of prehensile tails. Head a totally different shape.

But it's obvious to everyone that Genestealers are blatant copies of Aliens and Space Hulk an Aliens boardgame.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by colleagues, if you add some creative content instead of make an exact copy. Blizzard and GW are famous for using every popular idea present in SciFi or Fantasy, so is the aftermarket. This is standard practice in the SciFi/Fantasy market, with GW creative staff being the first to admit. Creates synergies and wealth of ideas. No problem until managers and lawyers from outside enter the scene and start fighting free exchange of ideas.

Except for what a Space Hulk is (Aliens take place on a planet).

There are of course clear design cues, but interpreted into a very different beast.

Ever seen the first Alien movie? Or the last 30 minutes of Aliens? And saying the corridors are not on a planet but on a huge space ship doesn't make much difference, right?

Kroothawk wrote:But it's obvious to everyone that Genestealers are blatant copies of Aliens and Space Hulk an Aliens boardgame.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by colleagues, if you add some creative content instead of make an exact copy. Blizzard and GW are famous for using every popular idea present in SciFi or Fantasy, so is the aftermarket. This is standard practice in the SciFi/Fantasy market, with GW creative staff being the first to admit. Creates synergies and wealth of ideas. No problem until managers and lawyers from outside enter the scene and start fighting free exchange of ideas.

The only similarity between the two is that it takes place in the future, and it has humans fighting aliens.

Genestealers look nothing like the Xenomorphs. Terminators are nothing like the Marines in Aliens. And the game was designed off of fluff from the Rogue Trader era.

You would have been better trying to draw a comparison between the 2nd Edition Hormagaunts and the Xenomorphs.

Edit: And Dan O'bannons own words. "I didn't steal Alien from anybody. I stole it from everybody!" So it was far from on original concept in the first place.

Kroothawk wrote:Ever seen the first Alien movie? Or the last 30 minutes of Aliens? And saying the corridors are not on a planet but on a huge space ship doesn't make much difference, right?

As I said, clear design cues.

But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares. The only way the Alien/Space Hulk thing could be similar, is if GW had called it 'Aliens, The Game' and everything looked the same.

dietrich wrote:

Polonius wrote:Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.

I would love to see Jervis in the Thunderdome!

@djones520: A ribbed Alien running through space corridors, hunting humans to infect them with genes to create offspring, does that ring a bell?

And O'Bannen doesn't count, as the Alien was designed and copyrighted by the artist H.R. Giger, a very distinctive and original design that has become popular and is often copied.

Mr Mystery wrote:But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares.

This is called aftermarket and not illegal per se.

honestly dont care as long as the models are still bieng made

Kroothawk wrote:@djones520: A ribbed Alien running through space corridors, hunting humans to infect them with genes to create offspring, does that ring a bell?

And O'Bannen doesn't count, as the Alien was designed and copyrighted by the artist H.R. Giger, a very distinctive and original design that has become popular and is often copied.

Mr Mystery wrote:But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares.

This is called aftermarket and not illegal per se.

Your moving the goal posts a bit here. You reference the idea of aliens hunting humans through enclosed spaces, which is something that O'bannen was responsible for writing. And which he blatantly stole the idea from another film made in the 50's.

And the xenomorphs didn't infect the humans. The facehuggers did.

And the whole story behind the genestealers was a hell of a lot more then just kill and spawn. They actually served a role for the Hive Fleets, and the creatures they "spawned" were capable of being sentient. Not just more mindless killers.

Now, as has been pointed out already, this isn't even close to the issue that Chapter House is being litigated for. If GW had created Space Hulk, and actually specifically referenced the Alien franchise, and developed products that were specifically stated for "enhancing" that genre, then you'd be onto something.

But they didn't.

I don't think Chapterhouse are breaking the law, they make additions to an existing product, not replicate it. If it was illegal car companies would sue whoever makes those fluffy dice you hang on the rear view mirror! so for that reason I vote Chapterhouse. Not a fan of their work though to be honest, but meh, whatever floats your boat.

It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

Hence why it would appear GW have not gone after more subtle players in the 'after market'.

Sorry guys, but regardless of whether it's after market or not, CH have effectively stolen IP in the eyes of GW, hence the lawsuit.

Just to run with the alien analogy, what chaptermouse has done is make an aliens film for 20p with the aliens a slightly different shape and have tried to pass it off as a Fox or whoever production. The point here is that all of the other aftermarket producers have had the brains not to directly copy GW art and sell it as if they have the right to make something just because GW don't at that point in time. I bet you any amount of money that if anyone tried doing the same to PP ip the net result would be the same lawsuit.

What I don't get is all the people here who think that 40k is the only sci fi wargame and haven't the faintest idea that there are loads of small companies banging out fantastic games and equally good miniatures.

djones520 wrote:They actually served a role for the Hive Fleets, and the creatures they "spawned" were capable of being sentient. Not just more mindless killers.

Actually, at the point Space Hulk was created there was no connection between GeneStealers and Tyranids.

I voted GW for a few reasons:

1 - I dont know anything about Chapterhouse, personally I could care less about them; however, I know everything about GW and love their games.

2 - I dont want anything to impact GW in a negative way

3 - I will assume that this Chapterhouse company is significantly smaller than GW and im all about the big guy! Crush 'em!

Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:In the words of former British Prime Minister...put up or shut up. Or at least admit you asertation is merely personal opinion?

Well, difficult to give exact numbers of an alternative timeline.
But doubling customer numbers outside UK with standard marketing tools is a piece of cake.
Just ask how many veterans were drawn into 40k by last editions Space Hulk/Space Crusade. MB's marketing worked!
And it's no secret that current creative staff feels hog-tied by higher management.

Need another example: Dissolving Black Industries when their newest product line (Dark Heresy) just sold out before release. Now IIRC second biggest RPG line. Also millions of certain dollars lost for no reason at all. Instead they spend huge resources for keeping sales limited to a small declining niche, firing good people left and right just to prevent natural growth of the market.

Well without knowing how much GW profited from Black Industries as compared to how much they profited from licensing out the RPG means you are pretty much talking out your backside. Do you actually know any of these numbers? I could easily see it being less profitable for them to make the game themselves. It is rather common for businesses to do this.

And doubling customers in any market is never easy...... I mean really?

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

bagley wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

brettz123 wrote:Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

To be honest, no I haven't. From what I've read so far a lawsuit seems abit over the top, the only problem I can think of is that Chapterhouse could ride on GW's back to build a name for themselves as sculptors, and if they made their own game system GW could possibly lose out a little. But Chapterhouse come across to me as being fans who want to improve a game, not steal from it. but meh, maybe I'm wrong, we'll see what happens... eventually.

bagley wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

Its not replicating, its using GW's ideas to make their own profit that GW could potentially want to do whether it does or doesn't. Its not Chapter House's ideas and they made it so blatant that is wasn't their idea either.
And the aliens and spacehulk thing is just silly. Genestealers in no way look like xenomorphs. In fact, if you wanna run through this, couldn't chapterhouse be sued by giger for selling alien heads and making money off his idea which they didn't pay for?

bagley wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

To be honest, no I haven't. From what I've read so far a lawsuit seems abit over the top, the only problem I can think of is that Chapterhouse could ride on GW's back to build a name for themselves as sculptors, and if they made their own game system GW could possibly lose out a little. But Chapterhouse come across to me as being fans who want to improve a game, not steal from it. but meh, maybe I'm wrong, we'll see what happens... eventually.

Well first of all please read the thread and you will see that there are serious legal issues that GW has with Chapterhouse. I don't know which way this will be decided but GW certainly has at the very least an interesting case and has a legitimate chance to win their lawsuit. Most likely they have indeed tried to handle this without a lawsuit but we don't know. Usually companies send cease and desist letters before starting a lawsuit and we have no reason to believe this isn't what happened.

And aside from the legal side of things it really isn't the height of ethics to "ride on GW's back". GW came up with a background for a game that is unique within the miniature business and other people don't just have the right to make money off of them. That is ridiculous. I would be pretty pissed to if I did all that work and some other company started making low quality sculpts that are not as high of quality as what you put out yourself.

A person or a company should have the right to control how their intellectual property is used and for me that is the bottom line. I feel that CH purposefully marketed their inferior quality items in a manner that did dilute the sales of GW and forge world items as well as making it hard for casual gamers or people who may pick them up second hand.

For instance GW / Forgeworld sell these products that CH makes an exact copy of.....

Tactical Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=62&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110189

Assault Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=50&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110190

Flesh Tearer Shoulder Pads
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=63&category_id=31

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod550012a&rootCatGameStyle=

So CH already makes items that GW currently produces. I didn't even count the numbered shoulder pads or the salamander doors for vehicles.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW GW DID go this third party licencing route once, when GW made almost no vehicles and a.o. Forge World USA got a licence. They were too successful, so GW retracted the licence, and in the end even stole the name of the licensee.

That had already been mentioned, with Armorcast. The list also includes Mike Biasi and Epicast. All 4 of those companies were set up (more or less one after the other) to make 40K vehicles under license from Games Workshop.

I would question whether it's really 'stealing the name' when that name is based on your own setting to begin with, though

brettz123 wrote:For instance GW / Forgeworld sell these products that CH makes an exact copy of.....

Tactical Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=62&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110189

Assault Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=50&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110190

Flesh Tearer Shoulder Pads
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=63&category_id=31

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod550012a&rootCatGameStyle=

So CH already makes items that GW currently produces. I didn't even count the numbered shoulder pads or the salamander doors for vehicles.

"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

Tactical pad: Hollow vs solid arrow
Assault pad: See above, also no real arrowheads on the assault pads
Flesh Tearer pad: Gem is separate to the symbol on the CH pad, also saw blade has different number of blades.

Salamander/Dragon armour kits: Very little resemblance, if any, between CH's kits and FW's

Numbered pads: Can't actually find any on FW or GW's site.

Dysartes wrote:"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

I wouldn't use the word "stretching", I would use the expression "blatant lie to intentionally harm Chapterhouse".

But I agree: If Games Workshop actually invented the arrow and copyrighted it, many people in the world are in trouble

Exact copy, perhaps not. But given that they are clearly imitating, and have been advertised using the same words, CH have indeed breeched IP quite badly.

Again, it is not so much the shape as the name of the product and it's advertising.

GW demands the moulds to be destroyed, not just the words and advertising to be changed. So they claim that all the products are illegal.
And, as said, Battlefoam also names, categorizes and advertises its products with GW names, not even marking those as trademarks or copyrighted.

Didn't see that bit.

But yeah, once somethings purpose has been deemed to be 'sell myself by breeching IP' the molds should be destroyed, no?

UselesswizarD wrote:I hope that both parties can some to an agreement in which Chapterhouse Studios are able to continue providing us with quality third party parts and where GW is able to protect their IP. I think that the world is big enough for the both of them to continue to exist and fuel our hobby.

GW's object is not to protect their IP.

GW's object is to force CH to shut down by the threat of enormously expensive proceedings of which CH might lose a part and thereby incur 100s of thousands of dollars of costs even if they largely win.

The example will also discourage other companies from making add-on parts to GW models.

In other words: "to scare the whole aftermarket out of business by claiming aftermarkets to be illegal per se".

Kroothawk wrote:

Dysartes wrote:"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

I wouldn't use the word "stretching", I would use the expression "blatant lie to intentionally harm Chapterhouse".

I was being polite, Kroothawk

Mr Mystery, that point is for the court to decide. As neither of us are IP lawyers, we can't say conclusively either way.

And yet the court case is one of opinions no?

I'm of the opinion CH knowingly and deliberately used IP not their own to generate profits. Whether people agree with me is not important. It's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Unfortunately, in both discussions on here regarding the case, peoples' phrasing keeps indicating that opinions are facts. For example:

Mr Mystery wrote:But given that they are clearly imitating, and have been advertised using the same words, CH have indeed breeched IP quite badly.

The quote does not indicate this is your opinion, and anyone looking at that post could take it as gospel. Most of the regular contributors won't, but someone fresh to it could.

With a couple of notable exceptions, none of us are lawyers, and even of the lawyers few are IP/trademark/copyright specialists. While in your opinion (and GW's as well) CH have breached these laws, it is a matter for a court of law to render judgement upon. Until the case has been heard, a judge has made his decision - and any appeals have been exhausted - the facts of the situation are unknown when it comes to guilt or innocence.

And as it looks like the initial filing contains some errors, who knows what the end result will be?

kilkrazy Wrote
GW's object is not to protect their IP.

GW's object is to force CH to shut down by the threat of enormously expensive proceedings of which CH might lose a part and thereby incur 100s of thousands of dollars of costs even if they largely win.

The example will also discourage other companies from making add-on parts to GW models.

This is why I feel no sympathy for GW. They are taking it so far that the company may be completely destroyed by the costs rather than having to change their names (which is IMO the right solution- CH have made the models and once they remove the names they will no longer be relying on GW). A company the size of CH will have very little effect on GW even if they did sell alternatives. The fact that they mostly sell convertions kits or fill gaps means they have even less of an impact to GW but they do improve the hobby for the customer but GW are still intent on gettiing rid of them.

Mr Mystery wrote:I'm of the opinion CH knowingly and deliberately used IP not their own to generate profits. Whether people agree with me is not important. It's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Is it also your opinion that all aftermarket products are illegal and advertising them is a breach of IP? That arrows, fists and dragons in all forms are IP of GW?

Funnily enough, that's a statement I've never actually made.

But good attempt at putting words in my outh.

Once again, it is not the product per se, but their use of IP that is the big problem, and the reason CH in particular don't have a leg to stand on.

Anyone could make scale guns to fit Space Marines, of any particular design. It only gets a bit ropey when they are either recast from existing GW sculpts (or indeed anyone elses for that matter) or when you advertise them using the terminology etc GW does. A Bolter you could not do, Heavy Rifle you could do, and so on. This is where CH appear to have got things wrong.

Mr Mystery wrote:Funnily enough, that's a statement I've never actually made.

This would be why Kroot appears to be asking you two questions, Mr Mystery, rather than stating you said those things previously.

... but a good attempt at putting words in my mouth

Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

Like it or not, Chapterhouse has indeed violated GW's legal property rights as outlined in the Legal section on GW's site, specifically the use of terms and symbols they invented. Depending on the terms of the suit and what GW claims, then Chapterhouse is very liable and will most likely be found guilty under US copyright law. GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:Like it or not, Chapterhouse has indeed violated GW's legal property rights as outlined in the Legal section on GW's site, specifically the use of terms and symbols they invented. Depending on the terms of the suit and what GW claims, then Chapterhouse is very liable and will most likely be found guilty under US copyright law. GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

This does ignore the point, Khesrta, that a lot of what GW say on their Legal pages is probably unenforcable - I think Polonius and one of the other lawyers have had something to say regarding this in the other thread.

Generally speaking - just because GW says something does not make it binding in a court of law, as I understand it.

No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

It's kind of like when I was a kid. My Mum told me never to kick someone in the 'nads, as they could wind up paralysed. Not sure I entirely believed her at any point, but I sure wasn't keen on putting it to the test, just in case.

In other words: "to scare the whole aftermarket out of business by claiming aftermarkets to be illegal per se".

"Quoted for truth" as the kiddies say.
This is 100% correct. Let's face it, folks. GW wants the aftermarket accesories market to go away. GW wants the bit selling market to go away. GW wants the second hand miniature market to go away. This whole thing with CH is just their taking advantage of an admittedly foolish over-step by CH to attack the larger problem by making an example of a smaller company.

Thus, I really do hope GW loses their a-- on this one.

TR

And what company wouldn't want all money that might be spent on it's products, actually spent on it's products?

I really don't get why people single out GW are some evil entity, when it doesn't do anything any other company would do or has done in a given situation?

I want chapterhouse to win because I hate GW.
Waiting for ensuing flame war...

Mr Mystery wrote:Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

I asked you to give an example for an IP breach in the products that justify all CH moulds to be destroyed, but you seem not be able to give one.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

Are we talking about the same GW that is obviously sueing the wrong sculptor for the super heavy?

BTW Ford doesn't sue Goodyear for mentioning which tire fits which car. So GW is doing something special.

No, they really aren't. As far as I'm aware, Ford do not make their own tyres, and the size of wheel on most production cars is pretty standardised. Thus you are now comparing apples to oranges. Neither are Goodyear trying to put 'Ford' on their tyres.

As for the destruction of the moulds, I did indeed comment on that. Here's a little clarifcation. If/when GW win this case, they will have proven the intent of CH to trade off their IP, and that their copyright was infringed deliberately. Thus the moulds should either be handed over to GW, or destroyed. What would CH do with them anyway once they're out of business? Nobody in their right mind would buy such tainted goods (remember, this is in the case that GW win the erm...case.) so they become effectively worthless, and perhaps I'm being melodramatic here, but I doubt anyone would really want to keep the mechanism of their downfall kicking about.

My statement is that the ordered destruction of the moulds and masters made by CH wouldn't be out of the question. Whether I personally feel that's going to far is immaterial.

Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

calgar 2.5 wrote:GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

So making products that fit to GW models is violating their IP?

Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

GW does indeed own IP on Salamanders, Eldar, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers etc. All of which CH had no hesitance in slapping on their products. If they hadn't done this, then fair enough. But they have. It's the same reason Ford cannot make a car, and call it an Impreza, and Subaru couldn't return the favour with a Focus of their own. They both make cars, they both have their own branding.

CH and GW both make parts and kits of models. CH decided to use someone elses branding. Simple as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, I'm beginning to think several posters are being deliberately obtuse. Even tempted to go through this entire thread and count the times I and others have pointed out it's not that they produce bits, but how they have gone about naming and designing them.

Its quotes like this that probably got CH in trouble, taken from the Tyranid Wave 2 thread from a few weeks back.

In regards to what Tyranid models may be coming in summer 2011, Chapterhouse had this to say:

I dont think we have to worry at all about the Tervigon kit coming out.

I chose to cater to those tyranid players who now have carnifex kits doing nothing (pretty much all of them). Our kits are perfectly legal at GW sanctioned events, since they incorporate GW parts (for those who care about such petty rules).

I bet the Tervigon kit from GW will be much more expensive as well, I am thinking in the $60 price range.

As for the Ymagrl Stealer, well, I rather have the ability to just use genestealers with all their poses and put on 3 different heads rather then 1 $15 GW metal model.

I will be interested if GW even comes out with a spore pod, but I doubt it at this time. While ours is the price of a Spacemarine Droppod, $35, and larger (to carry a carnifex of course).

I just think its not prudent to use the whole "can it be used in a GW sanctioned tournament" when GW rarely has any of its own tournaments anymore, and even the ones ran by the large cons, Adepticon, Wargamescon, Novacon, could care less if you are using 3rd party products.

We are releasing our own "Doom" model next week, and its larger then the Zoanthrope model, metal, single piece and I think we will only charge $20.00 at the most.

In any case, these are unsubstantiated rumors, for some reason I dont believe there will be a 2nd wave of tyranids...

To me it seems like CH went from being an aftermarket upgrade bits maker to wanting to be a straight up competitor by making models that are clearly GW "creations". In this quote, they are profiting from making models that are quite obviously directly inspired by GW artwork, themes and ideas. This is like an aftermarket company making tires/exhausts/anything that can be used for Ford(or any carmaker that fits your fancy) and then turning around and making a car that Ford plans to make in 2012, based off of Fords own concept art. That wouldn't even make it to the factory floor. And if it did, you know damn well the automaker would dominate that aftermarket company.

To be clear, I may come off as harsh on CH with some of the things I said in this thread or the other, but I by no means want to see anyone lose their job/business. But at the same time, there are rules to businesses that need to be followed and it seemed to me that they broke them or skirted so close to breaking, that they must now face the consequences.

And happy new year everyone!

Amaya wrote:

calgar 2.5 wrote:GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

So making products that fit to GW models is violating their IP?

No, creating kits, and using GW names for said kits is violating the IP. There is a reason other companies such as Scibor, and Maxmini use generic names for their kits, instead of names like "Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons Shoulder Pads".

Eactly. They crossed the line and should be hit for that infringement. Nothing wrong with making conversions/add ons.

Hell, GW even have a pretty strong claim to the term 'pre-heresy' which CH have used. Again it's a clear indication that CH intentionally used someone elses IP to help promote their models.

That's bull, pre-Heresy can refer to a lot more than the Horus Heresy.

Name one.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:Like it or not, Chapterhouse has indeed violated GW's legal property rights as outlined in the Legal section on GW's site, specifically the use of terms and symbols they invented. Depending on the terms of the suit and what GW claims, then Chapterhouse is very liable and will most likely be found guilty under US copyright law. GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

I don't think what GW has posted on their website is exactly what will be used to determine if there was indeed a breach of ip. Personally I think there was but not because of what GW has posted on their website.


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Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

I asked you to give an example for an IP breach in the products that justify all CH moulds to be destroyed, but you seem not be able to give one.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

Are we talking about the same GW that is obviously sueing the wrong sculptor for the super heavy?

BTW Ford doesn't sue Goodyear for mentioning which tire fits which car. So GW is doing something special.

You need to remember that when filing a lawsuit against someone it is customary to not only throw every possible violation against them but to ask for the worst possible outcome. I doubt anyone really believes that every single mold will be destroyed. To be honest I would think that at worst a small number might be destroyed but a lot of the CH stuff is decently generic enough to not be a problem in my opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

Perhaps not but arrows pointing up on shoulder pads for tactical squads is obviously part of the warhammer 40k IP and is a very prominent part at that. So GW doesn't own the IP for shoulder pads, they don't own the IP on arrows, and they don't even own the IP on space marines! But when you put that arrow (in about the same dimensions), in the same position, on a shoulder pad that looks like the ones that space marines have worn for the last 20 years that might be a problem. ESPECIALLY when you call them tactical shoulder pads.........

Lets just say that personally I wouldn't want to take the chance in court on defending that.

And I believe that is indeed the different between IP and Copyright?

IP being contextual, Copyright being wider? I don't actually know this for sure, hence the question marks.

Saldiven wrote: I personally feel that GW has the right to earn money from their creation (which 40k is) and they should be able to determine if they want another company making money off of their creation or not.

er... hang on - didn't steve jackson create 40k n all that n sell it in the 80's to the current owners of gw? i thought that they didnt create it - they bought the right to use it.... so since then theyve added it it, but they didnt create it.... mind you - im not sure that makes any diff leagally speaking...

Nope.

Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone founded Games Workshop, which back then was largely a re-seller and importer of other games.

As far as I remember, they weren't involved in the design of Fantasy or 40k?

DB wrote:

Saldiven wrote: I personally feel that GW has the right to earn money from their creation (which 40k is) and they should be able to determine if they want another company making money off of their creation or not.

er... hang on - didn't steve jackson create 40k n all that n sell it in the 80's to the current owners of gw? i thought that they didnt create it - they bought the right to use it....

Like Mr. Mystery stated it was my understanding that it was Rick Priestley who came up with Rogue Trader which then evolved into what we now know as Warhammer 40k

Check out this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Trader_(Warhammer_40,000)

brettz123 wrote:

DB wrote:

Saldiven wrote: I personally feel that GW has the right to earn money from their creation (which 40k is) and they should be able to determine if they want another company making money off of their creation or not.

er... hang on - didn't steve jackson create 40k n all that n sell it in the 80's to the current owners of gw? i thought that they didnt create it - they bought the right to use it....

Like Mr. Mystery stated it was my understanding that it was Rick Priestley who came up with Rogue Trader which then evolved into what we now know as Warhammer 40k

Check out this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Trader_(Warhammer_40,000)

interesting stuff......

Amaya wrote:Eactly. They crossed the line and should be hit for that infringement. Nothing wrong with making conversions/add ons.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with making conversion packs, I'm saying they made them while knowingly violated the IP, and they released the kits with names under a registered bIP, therefore they should pay the consequences.

Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Amaya wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Except none of those religious heresies involved gigantic shoulderpads.

Context, again, matters.

I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.

So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Sovereign6 wrote:I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.

So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Uhhhhhh Forge World is a part of GW.......

Also GW probably isn't looking to compromise to be honest with you. It is there game and they don't want poor quality add ons by third parties. Why should they share their potential profits with some company who has done none of the leg work they did making 40k what it is?

Mr Mystery wrote:And I believe that is indeed the different between IP and Copyright?

IP being contextual, Copyright being wider? I don't actually know this for sure, hence the question marks.

It's a good thing you've been posting dozens of times in these threads without knowing anything about IP law.

To quote Wikipedia:

"Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which property rights are recognized—and the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions."

Kanluwen wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Except none of those religious heresies involved gigantic shoulderpads.

Context, again, matters.

So I can't malke a completely seperate universe that has no relation to 40k other than the use of power armour (which is in a lot of Sci FI) and a heresy and I would be infringing on GW's IP?

Sovereign6 wrote:I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.
So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

Forge World is owned by Games Workshop.

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Because that's not how it works. Chapterhouse would have to be licensed and pay GW for the rights to use their names and likenesses on their product. They'd also have to be able to meet GW's standards for sculpting/production, etc.

In short: CH would go broke just meeting the requirements of the licensing.

Amaya wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Except none of those religious heresies involved gigantic shoulderpads.

Context, again, matters.

So I can't malke a completely seperate universe that has no relation to 40k other than the use of power armour (which is in a lot of Sci FI) and a heresy and I would be infringing on GW's IP?

No you would not (well maybe depending on the details).... but no you wouldn't.

Indeed. The context of 'pre-heresy' armour is GW's IP, as in terms of wargaming, pre-heresy is distinctly 40k.

Shoulder pads with bumps on them are copyrighted, what?