And I wouldn't take purgation squads. I'd let PAGK run cheap psycannons on cheap, plentiful bodies with DKs as my heavy support psycannon platforms.

5 combat squadded PAGK squads is 10 psycannons, and although we don't yet know the stats on a Heavy Psycannon, I imagine it'll be double the shots or S8.

5 PAGK squads, Vindicare, and 3 DKs with heavy psys is 1770 pts for the equiv of ~16 psycannons (48 shots) and a turbo penetrator. That'll have the run of the board as far as shooting goes. Razorback spam gets squashed by that much foot dakka.

Speaking of Terminators, I was all giddy about being able to take an all-terminator army before, but now I'm seeing them as a sloggy, slow, unwieldy mess

Same here, I had such big hopes for a working terminator GK army with lots of 5 man squads but the normal GK terminator squads are pointless and die like flies to counter fire due to no shield options.
Had they been able to mix in stormshields I might have reconsidered and in the future bought a whole GK termie army but not now.

Pyriel- wrote:

Speaking of Terminators, I was all giddy about being able to take an all-terminator army before, but now I'm seeing them as a sloggy, slow, unwieldy mess

Same here, I had such big hopes for a working terminator GK army with lots of 5 man squads but the normal GK terminator squads are pointless and die like flies to counter fire due to no shield options.
Had they been able to mix in stormshields I might have reconsidered and in the future bought a whole GK termie army but not now.

Well as far as I have seen...the normal terminators are troops choices...I have seen them listed near troops choices everytime...but I have not heard explicitly one way or the other...it would give reason to take them other than as the bad versions of Ghost Knights.

5 GKT + Warding Stave + 2x psycannon = 265, quite probably (if they have the option to go double specials in 5 man, 245 if not).

If regular GTs were WS5, I would probably consider this a fair price for the squad. Hit on 3s, wound on 3s, 4++ in CC, modest shooting. 265 seems fair for all that.

But at WS4 I'll just play Deathwing. They're simply not potent enough to take down AssTerms.

sourclams wrote:shooting!

here's what I dont get
why aren't people excited by relatively cheap 10 man squads with jetpacks and S5 stormbolters, you have a unit that is allmost un-ccable, fast so it can negate cover with movement, can deep strike and teleport, and is putting 6-7 heavy bolters worth of shooting out every turn with psiammo, you can stick psycannons in there theoretically too.

a squad or two of these guys puts out a pretty horrific amount of firepower against soft targets that you can strategically deploy anywhere quickly, and if things get hairy you grab them with a librarian and suck them to a safe zone or blow the dangerous mobs like the powerfists out with snipers and let the squad get to work..

From what I see you can probably run GK similarly to a good tyranid list where you have many threat vectors (except many of the GK ones are from shooting) coming down at you at once, while CC units of ultimate destruction is making its way over to you.
The army does seem like it could be weak against CC dedicated heavy CC units and walls of heavy armor, but with all the "stuff gets straight up removed", 30" moves, and wacky psi powers we dont know enough specifically to know for sure how this is going to work. with dreadknights blazing 30% across the board (in theory) and jump squads putting down tons of stormbolter fire on tarpit units, along with scouting land raiders and purifiers able to de-screen any vehicles very early in the game, its likely that GK are weak against plasma and melta, but you really need to earn it if you want more than 1 turn to use it on them

Has there been *anything* that confirms S5 or rending storm bolters?

Unless that's what psybolts does, I simply haven't seen where they get this S5 stormbolter shooting from.

If SBs can actually be S5, then PAGK is the way to go for simple volume of fire and shaking the crap out of rhinos and razors.

I haven't seen any confirmation on anything regarding PAGKs that's solid enough to speculate. IF the jump pack-teleporty PAGKs are troops, then holy mother of gak, that's one powerful army we've got here. If they're FA, they aren't as good. I'm looking forward to deepstriking my entire army, though. It's one of my favorite parallels between Daemons and Grey Knights, and now they'll hopefully be good enough to use that as an advantage.

I am going to miss a WS5 minimum on everything, though.

ductvader wrote:It's smarter to put crowe in something like a strike force anyways...give them cleansing flame for free...

incinerators are free...utilize them

you can't take the two special weapons unless you have 10 guys...it's not like it used to be/is now



Anyone have the what counts as daemons info? Is the avatar still in there?

each squad i was going for

2 psycannons
8 incinerators (may get psylancer if its any good)

crazypsyko666 wrote: Against AV 13, you've got about a 16% chance for penetration per squad. It's going to be an uphill battle against heavy tanks, so I'll stick to my guns and say a Godhammer LR is still going to be our best bet. It looks like you've got enough room to afford it, though. Hell, knock off one squad, that's one, if it's a 2k point game, there's number two. After that, it all depends on how much of an ass you want to be.

I dont think they can fire heavy weapons while moving so they are stuck at 4 str 7 ap4 shots, but if the rhino doesent move (i would only ever delay 1 or 2 if needed) thats 3 str 7 ap 4 rending shots

Av 13 and 14 are defiantly a problem although im not quite sure where you got 16% chance from

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:shooting!

here's what I dont get
why aren't people excited by relatively cheap 10 man squads with jetpacks and S5 stormbolters,

you say cheap?

isnt it 20 points for a guy plus 10-15 points for a pack and 5-10 points for psyammo?

so even at best...350 point unit...

Not debating the effectiveness...just think that GK squads are going to be a this or that kind of army...guns or packs...sometimes you're going to have to decide what units are going to be able to do before your points get away from you...

Jump pack GK's are suppose to be about 26pts according to the rumors on the first page.

Hulksmash wrote:Jump pack GK's are suppose to be about 26pts according to the rumors on the first page.

That's not too bad, all things considered.

Yeah, for what they're capable of (especially if they can fire those storm bolters on the move) they're VERY good value.

Hulksmash wrote:Jump pack GK's are suppose to be about 26pts according to the rumors on the first page.

Yes, Kirasu said it was +6 points/model for the teleporter packs. Since I assume that it'll be like every other codex, I put a seperate unit in FA and rolled the 6 points into the 20 base.

10x models at 26 points each.
2x psycannons at 10 points each.
Psybolt Ammo for 20 points (which was given by one source; the consensus seems to be +1 STR to stormbolters and "no idea?" about additional effects) for the whole unit.
That's 300 points. Definitely seems like a more interesting buy than the terminators.

That brings their cost to around the current points for a 10 man GK squad, maybe a bit cheaper as I can't remember if that was Psycannons or Incinerators.

Wonder if the terminators will get anything of value added to them, its weird GW did a unit that nobody will ever take since everything else is better and more fun.

Only incentive to use terminators at all that I can see is mordrack.

Not that wierd. They've done it before.

Everyone has terminators, and old GK players have GK termies (awesome models ) already.

Its the stuff no-one has already that becomes the new awesome unit. An example would be the fexes for the nids. Everyone had them, often 6 or more of them already, as they were one of the best things in the 4th ed codex. Therefore they wouldn't want to buy more, even with the option of brooding them up in 3's.

Answer-

Add in the Tervigon and T-fex as new shinies with good rules , but don't release models for them yet. Everyone buys and converts carnifexes.

Answer 2- put a blatantly better in all ways choice in the dex for less points,that no-one but a very few Forgeworld devotees will have (trygon/mawloc) and watch the new toy fly off the shelves.

The next step is to announce that the tfex is built using a mix of carnifex and trygon parts, easily available in a single kit for marginally less than both kits together would cost.


(nids just used for example)


With the terminators they'll be a viable option, but the new toys will be just a little better or just a little cheaper, requiring you to go shopping to build the 'best' lists

Well what breaks this reasoning is GW releasing a brand new plastic GK termie box.

...and then screws up termie rules totally so no one will ever use them what a shame.

I still think it is premature to call them 'useless', but ignoring that and looking to your point Pyriel, people often think that "New Plastic Kit = Great New rules!". This is only partially true, and is a rather 1-dimensional way of looking at it. Oh sure, in the minds of GW they are attempting to give great new rules to their great new kit, but they are human, and they make mistakes (just look at the Possessed). I'm sure they think that they're giving this new plastic kit a whole host of awesomesauce rules that will virtually guarantee sales - even more so given how many GW units are designed in a vacuum - but one’s aim and one’s result can often be quite far apart.

So it is technically correct to assume that ‘New Kit = Great New Rules’, but always add a ‘... in the minds of the writers’ after that ‘Great New Rules’ bit.

And do it twice when it’s Ward.

Pyriel- wrote:Well what breaks this reasoning is GW releasing a brand new plastic GK termie box.

...and then screws up termie rules totally so no one will ever use them what a shame.

Heh, Ghost Terminators I think are even more appealing now because of Stealth and their perfect deepstrike on turn 1.

HBMC:
You are right.
One might thing how the heck are GW playtesting these things anyway.
Two game designers asking their friends over for an afternoon?

Th elogical thing to do would be to take the concept of GW releasing a new box of somheting, how could we make this one sell pretty decently?
By giving it rules that ensure every other army out there except orks will roflstomp this unit?
What were they thinking.


As for ghost terminators, those are at most 10 minis.
How many more termie boxes do you think GW would have sold if they made valid rules for and gave an effective army that could be built around 5-6 squads of GK terminators.
I´d pay a lot of money to build such an army but then again, what´s the point when it gets walked over every time I take it to a table.

I think they hit spot on with the dark eldar, there you can have many many different builds using different units (boxes) that are all pretty much competitive.
As for GKs the competitive builds will be centered around the purchase of a few PAGK boxes and a dreadknight or two.
Not even the storm raven will see any bigger sales (and discourage GW from making new original units in the future perhaps).

Had it been given the scout rule it would be another matter since the deathbox-chibihawk would actually be able to see some use.
Same goes for GK terminators. How oh how many more would be sold and how much more fun would GK termie builds be if they had only done such a simple things as allow stormshields to be mixed into the squads?

Talk about missing an opportunity here.

@Pyriel: It always astounds me that they don't have more employees for codex writing, playtesting and other things when you consider how successful Games Workshop has been. They have TWO videogame series (that are extremely successful), a loyal fanbase, tons of kids screaming for more space marines, and about four or six codex writers. I don't really get why they don't have more guys writing rules and collaborating, messing around with concepts and specifically, more playtesting. It seems to me that GW has a lot of guys who love it as a casual game and a hobby. They need to have some guys who are competitive (and get along with the 'beer and pretzels' crowd) working with them.

/rant.

I think you people are missing the point here.

3 plastic kits released. One is the DK. One are the PAGK.

The last must be Terminators.

What does this mean? That there must be some way to make Paladins (or we simply have to use terminator models) out of this box set.

So, we want to fill out Mordracks cheap terminators? thats 2 boxes of 5. Then we want a squad of 5 paladins?

Thats a third box. I know I will be buying at least 1 box of them because their models will be SUPER AWESOME!

I suspect there will be different shoulderpads and shouldershields for paladins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point being, not even most space marine players have 3 boxes of terminators.

Jaon wrote:I think you people are missing the point here.

3 plastic kits released. One is the DK. One are the PAGK.

The last must be Terminators.

What does this mean? That there must be some way to make Paladins (or we simply have to use terminator models) out of this box set.

I don't think anyone missed this point, no. For the longest time we've been told that PAGK and TGK were coming in plastic kits.
And from the leaked army picture it seems fairly obvious that Paladins are going to be represented by their liber daemonica held like a banner above them that would be a bit from the Terminator box.

And these days Black Templar, Dark Angels and Space Wolves players are all happy to make use of more than 3 boxes of terminators.

Wow, it's amazing how fast cries of Dooooooom! It's soooo powerful can turn to cries of "Ahhhhh - it's so underpowered!"

Face it, we know too darn little at this point. You feel like you know alot, but like H.B.M.C. said, it's too early.

Also, many are crying about how 'all-GK' lists won't work now...maybe...they're not supposed to? Maybe, just maybe, the eponymous units are meant to be *components* of the army - and not the whole darn thing?

*GASP!* Maybe it's not a MEQ army at all!!!

Just throwin' that out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I loved the comment about how this codex won't work "except for one or two cheesy builds".

If there are only a couple of viable builds - then how can you call them cheesy? Are you saying it's better for people who invested time and money in an army to only ever be able to lose?

I don't think Paladins will look significantly differnt to regular GKT's. Ghost Knights won't either, I imagine, unless we're getting a metal kit for them, but we've heard nothing in that regard.

Come on folks - this isn't hard. They're releasing two plastic kits outside of Optimus Dreadknight:

1. GKT's
2. PAGK's.

And what is the best way to ensure that you sell more of these items? Make lots of Codex entries that all use the same kit. So for the GKT's we get Paladins, Ghost Knights and regular GKT's. From the PAGK's we get Interceptor Squads, Purgation Squads, Purifier Squads and whatever else I've missed.

It's the same reason there were 'Elite' versions of the Kabalite Warriors and Wych Cults in the DE Codex - more units, more opportunities to sell, but still all using the same kit rather than multiple kits for different types of units. It's the same reason we have Special Chars that make things you can only take in 3's into Troops. It's all there to give more opportunities for sales.

I think the first action I will do is buy the Codex, in Advance Order; that way I don't go on a spending rampage and buying up GW's inventory of GK models, and realize that I may not use over half of them. I really can't/won't say too much about what is good at this point and what is not; after all, we're only provided with 'assumptions' here, not quite sure if this or that is entirely accurate. I won't know until I get the Codex, plain and simple.

As for the things that I have on my mind to buy via priority...I'd have to say the Dreadknight - provided it isn't a horrendous model -, Paladins/GK Terminators, and the Grand Master. And, of course, some Troops so that I can provide a 'legal' army when I play, even if it is a small force.

The thing that is concerning me, is the price tags on these things...even with the money that I have - which is limited, rather, as I am young. If anything, it looks like I'll be buying a couple Terminators, a box of Troops and a GM and the DK.

Also, many are crying about how 'all-GK' lists won't work now...maybe...they're not supposed to?

I thought this codex will be called the "Grey knights" codex and not the "inquisition plus associates" codex.

As for minis, I dont really care, I love the painting and converting part of the hobby just as much and I have set aside some 1000-2000$ just for the upcoming GK boxes plus vehicles for them.

The only think that saddens me is that I wont be able to build GKT based armies that are anywhere near competitive.
Well that is unless Mr. HBMC, the true advocate of positive thinking, is right and GW drags up the proverbial golden terminator rabbit out of the upcoming codex hat

Ha! True advocate of positive thinking! Classic.

But no, I prefer to think of it in terms of realistic thinking. I'm positive that some of the Codex will be terrible. I'm positive that my Inquisitorial Army is now gone.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think Paladins will look significantly differnt to regular GKT's. Ghost Knights won't either, I imagine, unless we're getting a metal kit for them, but we've heard nothing in that regard.

Come on folks - this isn't hard. They're releasing two plastic kits outside of Optimus Dreadknight:

1. GKT's
2. PAGK's.

And what is the best way to ensure that you sell more of these items? Make lots of Codex entries that all use the same kit. So for the GKT's we get Paladins, Ghost Knights and regular GKT's. From the PAGK's we get Interceptor Squads, Purgation Squads, Purifier Squads and whatever else I've missed.

It's the same reason there were 'Elite' versions of the Kabalite Warriors and Wych Cults in the DE Codex - more units, more opportunities to sell, but still all using the same kit rather than multiple kits for different types of units. It's the same reason we have Special Chars that make things you can only take in 3's into Troops. It's all there to give more opportunities for sales.

Did I not just say that?

@H.B.M.C: No it's not! You just have to buy Coteaz! Where's that optimist we all love, eh?

Jaon wrote:Did I not just say that?

I said it better.

crazypsyko666 wrote:@H.B.M.C: No it's not! You just have to buy Coteaz! Where's that optimist we all love, eh?

So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

Not at all. The english language really needs sarcasm punctuation, doesn't it?

So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

Now dont you go bypassing your own words of wisdom
We simply dont know yet if your whole =I= army is a pile of crap any more then we know if my GKT army is the same pile of horse manure.

There just miiiiight be stormshields in GKT units as well as miiiight be stormtroopers and non IC driven =I= henchmen.

Pyriel- wrote:
The only think that saddens me is that I wont be able to build GKT based armies that are anywhere near competitive.
Well that is unless Mr. HBMC, the true advocate of positive thinking, is right and GW drags up the proverbial golden terminator rabbit out of the upcoming codex hat

Perhaps you could wait to know all the rules before throwing yourself in the Sarlacc's Pit?

I like it there and besides, I tend to follow HBMCs example

whoadirty wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
The only think that saddens me is that I wont be able to build GKT based armies that are anywhere near competitive.
Well that is unless Mr. HBMC, the true advocate of positive thinking, is right and GW drags up the proverbial golden terminator rabbit out of the upcoming codex hat

Perhaps you could wait to know all the rules before throwing yourself in the Sarlacc's Pit?

Wouldnt want to be digested for thousands of years.

Pyriel- wrote:
I thought this codex will be called the "Grey knights" codex and not the "inquisition plus associates" codex.

Please see the part where I said:

"Maybe, just maybe, the eponymous units are meant to be *components* of the army - and not the whole darn thing?

*GASP!* Maybe it's not a MEQ army at all!!! "

Well... all in all I still believe in this codex. We forget the tank hunting capabilities of the storm raven, + its excellent transport capabilities.

Do not despair, we still have hope. By the way a donkeykong DK with a Psilencer and a Heavy Psycannon is going to put out some dakka!

I highly doubt that GW would be stupid enough to let a bunch of low life inqusitorial gutter scum run around spamming storm shields and leave GKT high and dry without SS luvin.....greedy yes stupid no(unless its ward )

To early for this Bipolar rant bout OP/ to doom/underpowered. We have waited how may years month in half won't kill ya

Jaon wrote:Well... all in all I still believe in this codex. We forget the tank hunting capabilities of the storm raven, + its excellent transport capabilities.

Exactly with all the other gk anti tank powers abilities alrdy mentioned we should be good

H.B.M.C. wrote:So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Jaon wrote:Did I not just say that?

I said it better.

crazypsyko666 wrote:@H.B.M.C: No it's not! You just have to buy Coteaz! Where's that optimist we all love, eh?

So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

How would it be counts as? He allows inquisitorial henchmen as troops. He is also an Inquisitor. You can still include other inquisitors. How is that not an inquisitorial army?

I don't get the Special Character hate either. What exactly is the problem with this?

And now GKT's suck because they don't have storm shields? They didn't have them before and they were still quite good, and now they're troops! What's the issue with them?

So many people angry for so many different reasons.

I love it.

Welcome to the hobby....sucker.

I dont wanna be a debbie downer about Castellan Crowe but I dont think its been posted here yet.. As of the most current codex I have, he is NOT an independent character

He has special abilities which only work with units hes with.. but he cant join anything. Could be a typo but then again Death company Tycho went to the printers without the IC rule either

So he could go from amazing to "suck" very quickly

ph34r wrote:What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

Hypothetical:

The Space Marine Codex is released at the start of 5th Ed. In it there is a Blood Angel Character - Commander Dante - and he allows Assault Squads to be taken as troops, and his Chapter Tactics give the army Furious Charge. No Blood Angel Codex is ever released. Do you tell the Blood Angel players angry at this change to 'quit being such a baby'?

Or, let me put it another way:

Bite me.

Kirasu wrote:I dont wanna be a debbie downer about Castellan Crowe but I dont think its been posted here yet.. As of the most current codex I have, he is NOT an independent character

He has special abilities which only work with units hes with.. but he cant join anything. Could be a typo but then again Death company Tycho went to the printers without the IC rule either

So he could go from amazing to "suck" very quickly

O god I hope not DC tycho is DO NOT USE 'slowed' AS A PEJORATIVE TERM ON DAKKA. THIS IS FORBIDDEN. DON'T DO IT AGAIN. for his points if I wanted to sink points in too a model/unit that just wanders the board aimless trying to kill things id use chaos spawn.....

Griever wrote:How would it be counts as?

I have an army of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers no longer exist. Therefore, 'Counts As'.

Griever wrote:He allows inquisitorial henchmen as troops.

Which are not the same thing as Storm Troopers.

Griever wrote:He is also an Inquisitor.

But he's that Inquisitor. Why must I include a named Inquisitor with his own rules, backstory and details when before I could have my own.

Griever wrote:You can still include other inquisitors. How is that not an inquisitorial army?

It is a single type of Inquisitor army - the only type. You can only field an Inquisitorial army by taking Coteaz. That's the problem.

Griever wrote:I don't get the Special Character hate either. What exactly is the problem with this?

I don't want to use Coteaz to play the army I could play yesterday without him.

Why is this such an amazingly hard concept for people around here to understand?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

Hypothetical:

The Space Marine Codex is released at the start of 5th Ed. In it there is a Blood Angel Character - Commander Dante - and he allows Assault Squads to be taken as troops, and his Chapter Tactics give the army Furious Charge. No Blood Angel Codex is ever released. Do you tell the Blood Angel players angry at this change to 'quit being such a baby'?

Or, let me put it another way:

Bite me.

We're not talking about Power Armour armies here, we're talking Guard-types.

...and you're surprised?

Play Mareenz...or you're SOL, and you KNOW this....MAAAN!

@H.B.M.C.: This is my first edition, but if that happened in the 6th Ed. Space Marine codex, I don;t think Id mind that. Then again, I don;t use the Death Company. I do use Sanguinary Guard, but I think I could make do without. I'd also be fine with there being no SW book, either, and having Ragnar or Logan trade Chapter Tactics for Counter Attack.

I'm sorry you feel that your army is invalidated, but you might want to tone down all this lashing out at folks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

Hypothetical:

The Space Marine Codex is released at the start of 5th Ed. In it there is a Blood Angel Character - Commander Dante - and he allows Assault Squads to be taken as troops, and his Chapter Tactics give the army Furious Charge. No Blood Angel Codex is ever released. Do you tell the Blood Angel players angry at this change to 'quit being such a baby'?

if you had asked me at the start of 5th edition, yeah, i would have been fine with something like that as long as *NO* models were put out to pasture. that would require a bit more than one character and have to use a format something like the "chapter/legion on a page" entries of 3rd edition in order to incorporate stuff like the sanguinary priests and baal predators.... but yeah, i personally think 2-3 pages max per chapter is all the current independent marine books actually need. marines (like everyone else) need to be updated ONCE every edition and not multiple times at the cost of other armies. i guess i'm a space marine codex monodominant, lol. in regards to your situation, while i would have preferred full codex entries instead of just retinue upgrades, i'm not shedding too many tears unless you have to retire models completely.

Commander Endova wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that your army is invalidated, but you might want to tone down all this lashing out at folks.

Hate to say it, but it IS something you should expect at this point. It's hardly a surprise, but then again H.B.M.C., you never said you were surprised.

Every right to , but you DID expect it....right? If not, then shame on you.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Griever wrote:How would it be counts as?

I have an army of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers no longer exist. Therefore, 'Counts As'.

Griever wrote:He allows inquisitorial henchmen as troops.

Which are not the same thing as Storm Troopers.

Griever wrote:He is also an Inquisitor.

But he's that Inquisitor. Why must I include a named Inquisitor with his own rules, backstory and details when before I could have my own.

Griever wrote:You can still include other inquisitors. How is that not an inquisitorial army?

It is a single type of Inquisitor army - the only type. You can only field an Inquisitorial army by taking Coteaz. That's the problem.

Griever wrote:I don't get the Special Character hate either. What exactly is the problem with this?

I don't want to use Coteaz to play the army I could play yesterday without him.

Why is this such an amazingly hard concept for people around here to understand?

I've been wanting to play an inquisitorial army, and I'm really excited that the opportunity is there somehow. It's much more than you could expect from a codex called Grey Knights.

The special character doesn't bother me. You can still take henchmen with a 4+ armor save, hot-shot las-gun, or even a bolter. If anything this makes the IST army more fun: there's even more options to customize the squads.

I play Blood Angels, and I still don't think they should've got their own codex. I like to see a large spread of armies, so if it were up to me he'd be in Codex:SM, make assault squads troops, and allow more production times for the Eldar, Orks, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, etc, etc

Deadshane1 wrote:Every right to , but you DID expect it....right? If not, then shame on you.

Yeah, you got me. I did expect it.

Doesn't mean I can't be annoyed about it, and more annoyed at the idio... uhh... people who keep trying to tell me that it isn't a big deal (when they lose their army, we'll talk).

Hell, this is half the reason I started doing armies that don't even have rules (Deathwatch, Adeptus Mechanicus). Can't lose anything if you never had anything to begin with, right?

We forget the tank hunting capabilities of the storm raven, + its excellent transport capabilities.

An AV 12 thing for 200p points counts as potent tank hunter, are you serious?

The first lousy 6p ork with a rokkit will down that thing in a heartbeat.

And now GKT's suck because they don't have storm shields? They didn't have them before and they were still quite good, and now they're troops! What's the issue with them?

They have them now but rumost say they wont soon.
Point is that point for point GKTs are going to suck vs other termies and this is supposed to be "the" elite army.
GKT will be low model count but without the staying power of otehr terminators that can take shields.

Any noobish plasma spam army out there will make your GKT based build completely nullified. That is unless there are still tricks in the codex we dont know anything about.
On top of the insult pretty much all, no, ALL, other choices other then GKT are better and/or more fun to take then the poor GKTs.

I don't want to use Coteaz to play the army I could play yesterday without him.

Why is this such an amazingly hard concept for people around here to understand?

Probably the same reason why being allowed only one overpriced supersave per terminator squad makes all my plans for a GKT based army null and void.
Pisses me of but hey, its my money GW wont get so I guess we´ll call it even.



As for the one IC = =I= army it would be fairly common by now.
I mean if I want to play a "real" Salamanders army then there is only ONE IC I can take.
If I want to play a "real" raven guard army then there is only ONE IC I can take etc.

Some new info for you guys regarding Draigo's sword from Katie over at Heresy:

Katie Drake;882102 wrote:
"The Titansword: The Titansword is a master-crafted force weapon with the Daemonbane rule. Additionally, any close combat attacks that Draigo directs against a unit that contains one or more Daemons or Psykers are resolved at Strength 10."

So first off, it isn't a Nemesis sword, so no +1 to invun, he just has a normal 3++ from his storm shield. Next thing is that Draigo doesn't have to actually be attacking a psyker or daemon to get S10, there simply needs to be one in the squad he is attacking to get S10. It's also a force weapon, which we didn't know before.

Draigo is also fearless, which we didn't know before, but it's pretty pointless, as nothing else in the army is fearless, so he'll run away with what ever squad he's with anyway.

Next, I asked Katie is Paladins had a 4++, after people here on Dakka said they did.

Katie Drake;882472 wrote:1) It's 5++. Paladins don't have Iron Halos or anything like that. Naturally they have the force swords so it'll be better in close combat assuming one decides not to swap them out for something else.

Which is the same as I have read everywhere too, so I don't know where this 4++ for paladins comes from.

Somehow I feel compelled to apologize about the little gak storm that came about because of my sarcasm with Coteaz.

As much as I've wanted to play an effective pure GK army since I've started this hobby, I think the quality of the codex would be diminished if it became another SM variant. But, that's asking a lot of GW. What would have really made me happy is an Inquisition codex, all three branches bunched up and fleshed out. That would've been a marvel if done well.

But I think that is exactly what you are getting - it's just called Grey Knights.

Kinda like the way it was callled "Spiderman 3" and not "Spiderman plus Venom and Sandman".

Exactly. And I'm not sure whether or not I like it.

Can't wait for the release myself only been playing for a year and only been playing grey knights, so I'm looking forward to using a new codex. Some of the changes I don't like for instance losing the fearless sucks, it was a liability in close combat but now, even though yes they're marines, they seem closer to the codex marines or the other astartes chapters and aren't as unshakable in their beliefs. I myself am planning on getting 2 of the Dreadknight kits even though they might be ugly, can always teak or convert them a bit to look better on top of 4 terminator boxes and 2 pagk boxes.

Play style is going to change a bit from the looks of it, can afford to be a bit more aggressive rather than letting opponents advance while you shoot then you move up enough to make sure you get the charge on the next turn after shooting them up one last time, also I don't think I'll be using more than 1 land raider until 2500 points or even then might still use just 1 after seeing the weapon loadouts on the dreaknight and the dreadnaughts.

I just want my supplementary Inquisition back in my SM and IG. That's all I want...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

Hypothetical:

The Space Marine Codex is released at the start of 5th Ed. In it there is a Blood Angel Character - Commander Dante - and he allows Assault Squads to be taken as troops, and his Chapter Tactics give the army Furious Charge. No Blood Angel Codex is ever released. Do you tell the Blood Angel players angry at this change to 'quit being such a baby'?

Or, let me put it another way:

Bite me.

<.< ..... >.>

*Chomp*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

synack wrote:

Draigo is also fearless, which we didn't know before, but it's pretty pointless, as nothing else in the army is fearless, so he'll run away with what ever squad he's with anyway.

May want to check the rules on that Its actually the other way around. He will keep the cowardly in line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:

We forget the tank hunting capabilities of the storm raven, + its excellent transport capabilities.

An AV 12 thing for 200p points counts as potent tank hunter, are you serious?

The first lousy 6p ork with a rokkit will down that thing in a heartbeat.

... Did I say that the storm raven is the one and only one stop place to go for all your tank hunting needs? No.

It isnt as overpowered awesome as a vendetta, but the TL MM + TL AC combo is a winner. It has every right to destroy land raiders. Its fast and it packs a punch.

Oh and by the way?

This 6p ork were talking about would need a:

5+ to hit
5+ to penetrate
5+ to destroy

Thats a nice roll you got there.

Any one who has actually played 40k pyriel will know that the SR is not WEAK. Sure its not a god, but it has potential, and working in conjunction with the rest of your army (maybe those PAGK who conveniently killed that ork with the rokkit launcher) it will do just fine.

Frankly I'm looking forward to seeing how this shapes up... Besides Tyranids (my first and always army!) Grey Knights always had a sense of appeal for me.

That said, I can totally see why folks are ticked off. Me? I'm simply saddened that my #1 army seems to be taking a back burner yet again to another Codex... only one who I've seen Tyranids hold any sort of advantage against appears to be DE... and I've yet to play against the new codex (stupid graduate program).

I just hope the book comes with a decent paint guide, or at least paint labels in their colored sections, like they used to have. If hardback appears to be the new codex style (I'm looking at you Orcs...) then they can at least give us that.

i Stil reckon the codex might be over powered but ever codex is I cant wait to go them!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:What the feth are you so mad about? The fact your your army now needs to counts-as one special character? Whose wargear is likely near identical to the average inquisitor's wargear anyway? Ohhh nooo.

Quit being such a baby.

Hypothetical:

The Space Marine Codex is released at the start of 5th Ed. In it there is a Blood Angel Character - Commander Dante - and he allows Assault Squads to be taken as troops, and his Chapter Tactics give the army Furious Charge. No Blood Angel Codex is ever released. Do you tell the Blood Angel players angry at this change to 'quit being such a baby'?

Or, let me put it another way:

Bite me.

In 3e you had stormtroopers and gakky +1 stat upgrade henchmen for the inquisitor. Now you have stormtroopers with -1 BS, and half a dozen new unit types that you can mix in whatever way you want. Oh, and a bunch of new special characters to boot. Unfortunately if you want =][= troops you have to take an inquisitor with daemonhammer that costs a massive 100 points. Oh woe is you /sarcasm.
Go make your own edition to drown your sorrows in. Oh wait, you already did.

Jaon wrote:
May want to check the rules on that Its actually the other way around. He will keep the cowardly in line.

Just checked the rules, you had me doubting my rules for a sec. I wish I was wrong, but unfortunately, I was correct.

Pg 75, Fearless: "This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit. However, if a character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule."

So yeah, fearless on a IC where all the units in the army aren't fearless, is a waste and a pointless rule.

For all we know, they are all Fearless. For all we know, they use Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF.

It would be stupid and pointless if they don't have it, though.

crazypsyko666 wrote:For all we know, they are all Fearless. For all we know, they use Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF.

It would be stupid and pointless if they don't have it, though.

They may very well be, I'm just pointing it out the way it is atm for the rumours.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

Maybe, but perhaps you're not seeing the forest for the trees? Yea, I may have to take Coteaz (and by Coteaz I mean a really awesome kitbash I've been planning ever since I learned about Coteaz making Henchmen troops), but that also means I can take him and a mix of Crusaders and Death-Cult Assassins in a Land Raider Crusader. Who can now capture objectives. At this point Coteaz sounds 'generic' enough to be an afterthought to an army full of characterful units of HW Servitors, Plasmagun-laden Warrior Acoyltes, and so on.

bhsman wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So my whole army is a Special Character-driven Counts As pile of crap. Can you see how that might not be all that appealing?

Maybe, but perhaps you're not seeing the forest for the trees? Yea, I may have to take Coteaz (and by Coteaz I mean a really awesome kitbash I've been planning ever since I learned about Coteaz making Henchmen troops), but that also means I can take him and a mix of Crusaders and Death-Cult Assassins in a Land Raider Crusader. Who can now capture objectives. At this point Coteaz sounds 'generic' enough to be an afterthought to an army full of characterful units of HW Servitors, Plasmagun-laden Warrior Acoyltes, and so on.

Characterful? It sounds like a heedless hodgepodge of old odd ends. Suitable for an Inquisitor, maybe, but it'd look appalling and lack any kind of cohesion. Also, good luck scratchbuilding every single model in the army.

I'm quite looking forward to a characterful hodgepodge, personally. I have a bit of a random hodgepodge of Rogue Trader-era Imperial Guard, as well as old GW minis that just are just called things like "Space Pirate" or "Army", as well as a few more recently released Guard, so this codex sounds like an improvement for me on that score. I've already removed the TH/SS arms from my GKTs and begun repurposing them for my newly revived Deathwing, so again, I'm looking all right, army-wise. Just need to see whether a characterful hodgepodge is going to be competitive; if not, I guess metal GKs will keep their resale value pretty well.

I don't have a huge problem fluff-wise with them not getting Storm Shields. It sounds like the general route that's being taken with them is that they concentrate on offence. 2+/5++ is still way better than most infantry get, so if they have some reasonable options for mobility *and* better all-round offensive capability than most terminators, that could be balanced.

On the subject of how much testing GW does, and why they don't do more rules brainstorming among competitive players: I don't think it's their way. They'd rather give game design jobs to someone with a really well-painted Ultramarines army, or to a very keen retail staffer from one of their shops, than to game designers who might have been contaminated by experience working for other companies, or by academic qualifications in game design.

They did advertise last year for a maths-orientated rules checker -- basically a professional powergamer -- but I have to assume from subsequent codex releases that they either didn't manage to fill the post, or that they decided that their star rules writers were far too important and gifted to have to listen to a maths geek.

synack wrote:

Jaon wrote:
May want to check the rules on that Its actually the other way around. He will keep the cowardly in line.

Just checked the rules, you had me doubting my rules for a sec. I wish I was wrong, but unfortunately, I was correct.

Pg 75, Fearless: "This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit. However, if a character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule."

So yeah, fearless on a IC where all the units in the army aren't fearless, is a waste and a pointless rule.

I apologize, I was under the impression, that units ALWAYS gained IC LD, even if it was fearless. I shouldnt have been so foolish to tell you to check the rules when I was going off memory anyway, and I had the BRB right next to me

The fact that some of you are crying so much and we don't even have a release date, let alone reliable rules is god-damn hilarious.

Oh, and the Corteaz madness? I don't care. I will field him as a counts-as of my own inquisitor. I've made bigger refluffs than that. Jeez, it's like everyone has forgotten that no-one will lynch you if you use a different model.

And to restate, if you want a balanced army, you can't have all GK in the same way that a balanced Tyranid list isn't all Carnifexes. So GKT lack reliable anti-tank. But Inquisitorial Stormtroops can get meltas and PAGK can get cheap psycannons.

Oh, and the stormraven is great fun. A massive heavy weapon magnet, but great fun while it lasts.

Cerebrium wrote:The fact that some of you are crying so much and we don't even have a release date, let alone reliable rules is god-damn hilarious.

Oh, and the Corteaz madness? I don't care. I will field him as a counts-as of my own inquisitor. I've made bigger refluffs than that. Jeez, it's like everyone has forgotten that no-one will lynch you if you use a different model.

GK ARE coming in April, as we got a incoming mail from GW stating as much, we just don't know when in April, but my bet is early April, so we'll see what happens there

Eh, for the Counts as; I'm gonna give him any wargear that any inquisitor can get and if any player complains, I'll tell them to go screw themselves...

There; I got around the whole limited choice 'counts as' stuff.

Yeah, but we don't have an exact date.

And Mr Hyena, I agree in a less confrontational way I would just check with the player that it was OK and that I'm not using anything massively overpowered. I'm not trying to pass off twin-linked psycannons on him or anything, I'm just giving him a few different options.

(Where you from in Glasgow, Hyena?)

If its wargear available to any of the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus or Malleus Inquisitors (and ONLY from one; no mix and matching between them cause that would be unfair) then for an IC it can hardly be broken I believe. So I wouldn't be asking for permission as much as I would if I was using Forge World rules for example.

Course I can expect anally-uptight people getting all hot and bothered about not following it strictly to the letter.

(pretty near the city centre, in the Germiston/Royston area)

Eh, I know some people who are edgy about using anything that's not in the codex. Normally those people can be silenced by made to look at BoLS lists to prove there's broken stuff in codii too.

BUT I DIGRESS

I wouldn't see much of a problem by giving a Corteaz counts-as any of the other Inquisitor gear within reason.

(More conversation in brackets, yay. You go to the Glasgow GW? If so, you've probably met me at least once )

Mr Hyena wrote:If its wargear available to any of the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus or Malleus Inquisitors (and ONLY from one; no mix and matching between them cause that would be unfair) then for an IC it can hardly be broken I believe. So I wouldn't be asking for permission as much as I would if I was using Forge World rules for example.

Course I can expect anally-uptight people getting all hot and bothered about not following it strictly to the letter.

(pretty near the city centre, in the Germiston/Royston area)

You want to make up rules? You had better be prepared to let me make up rules too. I hope you don't get all anally-uptight and hot and bothered about my rules.

no no no, you can't mix equipment!

That's just making up the rules for you. I understand that it's ridicoulous that one has a thing and another can't have it, but we are talking about BALANCE. If you substitute gear at least be sure that the other gamer can make so... but it will be broken anyway.

Stick to codex or Chapter approved, otherwise it's useless to play. If everyone makes rules of their own, it's a problem.

Except it's not "making up rules". It's "using rules thatshould apply but don't for some reason." It's basically the same idea as DA and BT players who were using 3++ SS pre-FAQ because it made sense (which was most of the DA/BT players I know).

Or hell, just refluff abilites. My inquisitor uses a sword. I planned just to have it work like Corteaz's daemonhammer. It's a modelling choice, not a gaming one.

Cerebrium wrote:Except it's not "making up rules". It's "using rules thatshould apply but don't for some reason." It's basically the same idea as DA and BT players who were using 3++ SS pre-FAQ because it made sense (which was most of the DA/BT players I know).

Oh, I didn't think about it that way. So my Mephiston can take a storm shield now, right? Can't wait for them to FAQ that one in! Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna go tell my gaming group!

in our FLGS we gave the possibility to DA and BT players to use the SS +3 because it had SENSE and was not creating problems... but just for casual and friendly games.

For tournaments and other "official stuff" they had to use Codex and eventually FAQ rules.

But this is different from saying :

"All right then, my Pedro Kantor has the mantle of Vulkan and the power fists of Calgar"

EDIT

@ Ph34r = Dear Lord please no... not Mephiston with a SS 3+ !

Hear that? It's the point flying miles over your head. BT/DA SS were gimped due to SM being updated months after their release. Mephiston isn't even factored into this. What this is is you constructing a nice little strawman to make yourself seem more credible.

That, or you're just a terrible troll.

KOS wrote:"All right then, my Pedro Kantor has the mantle of Vulkan and the power fists of Calgar"

EDIT

@ Ph34r = Dear Lord please no... not Mephiston with a SS 3+ !

But it just makes sense man! If people don't like my 3++ Mephiston, they're clearly meanies who are just way too uptight!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cerebrium wrote:Hear that? It's the point flying miles over your head. BT/DA SS were gimped due to SM being updated months after their release. Mephiston isn't even factored into this. What this is is you constructing a nice little strawman to make yourself seem more credible.

That, or you're just a terrible troll.

Whoa there buddy. You just changed all your posts from "give my Corteaz any gear I want" to "counts as any gear I want". Change of stance, or bad explanation when referenced next to Mr Hyena?

All I'm wanting is Corteaz' "henchmen as troops" rule. If I need to refluff his abilites, so be it. If the opponent is willing to let me actually take the other gear, all the better.

aaah well guys let's just calm down, we are here to talk about the codex of the Grey Knights. We don't have to argue for everything, in the end anyone plays just like they want to.

Also, we could argue when we will have something real in our hands. Right now we have "fried air" (as we say here in Italy, this means nothing) with nothing confirmed.



This is just to avoid a series of flame posts.

Fried air. I like it. Accurately describes much of a rumor thread's commenting

ph34r wrote:Fried air. I like it. Accurately describes much of a rumor thread's commenting

No, if it's to be accurate for a NnR thread, it'd be "NERF FRIED AIR GW HAVE FORGOTTEN ABOUT ROASTED AIR"

Dont know if this has been mentioned yet.

Theres a leaked codex on megaupload. This blog has some more info (+ link):

link removed. Thanks anyway, but we can't have things like this on the site.Dont know how accurate this is/will be compared to final copies but thought it best to mention

[I didnt upload this, just stumbled upon it via a poster on BoLS]

Mods, if this breaches any rules i apologise and will take it down.

Just gotta say:

"Jokaero are heavyset, orange furred apes with retractable fingers and toes, passingly similar in appearance to the orangutans of ancient terra"

Lol

Wow. That does look like the genuine article Vitruvian.

Now if only some semblance of reason would return to this thread...

Alright, here's a couple of tidbits:

Justicar Thawn can resurrect on a 4+. He if he fails to get back up he can try again the next turn. He can do this as many times as he wants and does not award a single KP if he's alive at the end.
Coteaz has the old Mystic ability. He can automatically shoot anything that arrived in reserves 12" from him.
Both Dreadnought types get Reinforced Aegis, not just the Venerable.
Purgation Squad Justicars and Stormravens can have Teleport Homers.
Dreadknights can deepstrike even without the personal teleporter.

All I wanna know is, based on what we know so far:

Is the GK theme still gonna be a low model count, ultra elite badass army? Or are they shaping up to be more numerous compared to current edition? I mean specifically GKs, and not the unlimited henchmen build or whatever it was I read about that.

All the comments of wow these guys are cheap, you could bring XXX of them are throwing me off. Reason I wanna know is my gf might start and I thought a low model count army would be best =p But if they end up being as numerous, on the average as say BA then oh well no difference.

EDIT: DLing that codex thing now, maybe I'll find out for myself
EDIT 2: Wow, it does look like the real thing. I'll let more enlightened minds than mind decide though. This must be some kind of karma for being super duper secretive about releases lately.

It would appear that they are still a low model count elite army, but not quite as elite or low model count as before IMHO.

They're quite easily the elite-est, low-est model count standard army there is in 40K though. So they're more numerous than before, but less numerous than most.

I wouldn't worry about it, for a low model-count army these guys will be the way to go. There's always one of the other options that there has always been (Deathwing/Loganwing), but these guys are the best of the bunch from the look of things IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I must admit, although we can't see much of the artwork in this leaked version, some of the artwork does seem to be simply re-used and has the 'ye-old' appearance to it which isn't that good IMHO, but it does look really good and fairly balanced otherwise. Wont stop people complaining one way or another, but still...

I must admit to being a bit... disconcerted by having such strong rumours and 'knowledge' so long before the release; particularly compared to other released of late. I cant even recall having such a leaked Codex available either. Bit 'odd' IMHO.

Btw:

Coteaz makes Henchmen Troops Choices. So only 6.

Also PAGK cants take Chimeras.

Vitruvian XVII wrote:Btw:

Coteaz makes Henchmen Troops Choices. So only 6.

Also PAGK cants take Chimeras.

Wrong on the only 6, right on the chimeras.
Also henchmen can take any dedicated transport.

According to that leak, all 4 assassin types have fleet. Cut, print, sold, GW, please take my money now.

Also, ahaha, according to those points costs, my vindicare is going to be more expensive than my HQ inquisitor.

EDIT: Every one of the assassins sound great. The Culexus' Animus Speculum sounds hilarious if dropped near a psyker, and Eversor's d6 extra attacks on the charge will be devastating.

It is generally highly against Dakka policy to link to illegal GW scans, pre or post release.

"Are troops choices" - to me, that sounds like they do take up a slot.

Slinky wrote:"Are troops choices" - to me, that sounds like they do take up a slot.

This has been discussed in detail before. Units that don't take force org slots, don't take force org slots. It doesn't matter what force org they fit in. They don't use slots.

Also Coteaz gets old school mystics 12" DS shooting bubble power for him and his unit.

Don't agree. "This unit does not take up a force org slot" is in the same paragraph as "For each inquisitor you may take a unit"

"Unit" iss referring to the unit you can take for having an inquisitor, surely...

Should i take the link down then?

(ALthough i only linked to a blog, not the actual file)

Im in the 'only 6' group, sounds to me like Coteaz overrides the previous Force Org. stipulations.

I wondered how long the supposed 'leak' was going to take to appear. Saw a screenshot of it on 4Chan a week or so ago.

Seeing as you've looked at the real codex (unless im mistaken), can you verify how accurate the leak is?

It certainly does look genuine. I haven't inspected it thouroughly, but at first glance there are no eyebrow-raisers that make me think it is somebodies home made
concoction.

Could be that someone at the printers copied the rules before fluff & pictures were inserted (although there is some (old) art in the 'leak' to).

Vitruvian XVII wrote:Seeing as you've looked at the real codex (unless im mistaken), can you verify how accurate the leak is?

As I've said since the beginning, I have not seen the actual Codex. From what's in here though it confirms a lot of what we've seen. It's an earlier draft (some things in there have different names to what I read). Can't say I'm a fan of the list though, and not due to 'power' or anything. There's something that's less unique about the GK's if all they are just regular Marines with some more psychic powers and fancy weapons. Kinda dull.

It interesting to see 'Nemesis Force Sword' rather than 'Nemesis Force Weapon' though.

I really think it's an early play tetsing version. The notes scribbled everywhere and "page XX" as well as the place holders for images makes me believe it's no where near a being complete and still being play tested. I really think lots will change from what we've seen.

It looks to me to be well past playtesting, but perhaps not the final draft.

If they make changes from this version it will likely not be more than a few minor changes in wording (like H.B.M.C.'s Force Sword/Force Weapon) and tiny mistakes.

ph34r wrote:It is generally highly against Dakka policy to link to illegal GW scans, pre or post release.

It is indeed.

I can fully understand the how/why, but I have had to removed the link in the earlier post.

*obligatory remidner about legal stuff yadda yadda*

KOS wrote:in our FLGS we gave the possibility to DA and BT players to use the SS +3 because it had SENSE and was not creating problems... but just for casual and friendly games.

For tournaments and other "official stuff" they had to use Codex and eventually FAQ rules.

But this is different from saying :

"All right then, my Pedro Kantor has the mantle of Vulkan and the power fists of Calgar"

EDIT

@ Ph34r = Dear Lord please no... not Mephiston with a SS 3+ !

(late reply)

Why exactly would a 'counts as' Coteaz, that is aligned to Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus...use Coteaz's gear and not the wargear from the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor or Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor? (and only from a single choice depending on Ordo. Your not really mixing other rules). To me that makes more sense than weird things like daemonhammers counting as other weapons. Sure, if the other guy's army is in the same position, by all means I'd let them take equipment as long as theres a similar reason why.

Thats the problem I have. Coteaz's gear isn't flexible; its the opposite (and he can't represent the other ordos well); so your forced to have a one-dimensional character to have a pure =I= army. This rule honestly should have been for Inquisitor Lords in general and not a special character.

I doubt much will be different in the final codex either...

Here are pics of a sprue to some kind of never before seen space marine vehicle. I think its a flying tank or whatever.

I understand what you mean... we will know the truth once the Codex will be published, not sooner :(

I apologise reds8n, thankyou for removing the link.

@Eidolon: Are you serious? Thats a LS dude.

Eidolon wrote:Here are pics of a sprue to some kind of never before seen space marine vehicle. I think its a flying tank or whatever.

This is confirmed to be the exciting new "Land Speeder", the name of which GW is obviously trying to steal from Lucas and his Landspeeders of the original Star Wars. Oh how clever they are to separate the words so that it doesn't appear to be infringement, cause no one would ever think you could claim ownership to two generic words, just ask those crafty "Army Builder" chaps.

(What major dramas of 2010, I wonder what will top them in 2011?)

Vitruvian XVII wrote:I apologise reds8n, thankyou for removing the link.

No worries, no harm done in the scheme of things.

The willingness of dakkanauts to help each other out always warms the otherwise Stygian depths of my heart.

I wouldn't worry about it, for a low model-count army these guys will be the way to go. There's always one of the other options that there has always been (Deathwing/Loganwing), but these guys are the best of the bunch from the look of things IMHO.

Not better, only better in Cs but way crappier in/vs shooting. Maybe the whole is balanced though.

Anyone still feel like taking 10 paladins at 700-ish points is a good idea when they only get 5++ vs shooting S8+ AP1-2 weapons will instantkill them?
In against all tournaments where tau and IG demolishers are present I dont think we´ll be seeing much paladins.

I can see this whole coteaz unlimited troops thing being another face palm what were we thinking kind of thing IMHO, but we will see when the codex is released.

Pyriel- wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it, for a low model-count army these guys will be the way to go. There's always one of the other options that there has always been (Deathwing/Loganwing), but these guys are the best of the bunch from the look of things IMHO.

Not better, only better in Cs but way crappier in/vs shooting. Maybe the whole is balanced though.

Anyone still feel like taking 10 paladins at 700-ish points is a good idea when they only get 5++ vs shooting S8+ AP1-2 weapons will instantkill them?
In against all tournaments where tau and IG demolishers are present I dont think we´ll be seeing much paladins.

My dear friend, it has been said from the start their base ++ is 4. In close combat, it will be 3. Worry not.


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Eidolon wrote:Here are pics of a sprue to some kind of never before seen space marine vehicle. I think its a flying tank or whatever.

Yeah Im hoping thats sarcasm.

Jaon wrote:My dear friend, it has been said from the start their base ++ is 4. In close combat, it will be 3. Worry not.

That's not in the leaked document though; that one still gives them a 5++, and it seems that a lot of the "sources" have just been quoting stuff off it - and with a big share of erroneous details.
We'll see once the codex is released (or leaked ), still plenty of changes possible between this playtest list and the final version.

It's reasonable. I'd bet it's fairly close. But maybe it's a really, really well done hoax. Who knows

Eidolon wrote:Here are pics of a sprue to some kind of never before seen space marine vehicle. I think its a flying tank or whatever.

Woah, look at those cool missiles! I'm really looking forward to this!

Agamemnon2 wrote:[
Characterful? It sounds like a heedless hodgepodge of old odd ends. Suitable for an Inquisitor, maybe, but it'd look appalling and lack any kind of cohesion. Also, good luck scratchbuilding every single model in the army.

Erm...this is what some folks love most about the hobby. I LOVE to see an army someone spent so much time and effort on. Not everyone is you. ;-)

With the sheer amount of rules changes in this Codex (it appears that nothing has been left as it once was), I'd almost swear it was a Cruddance book.

VoidAngel wrote:Erm...this is what some folks love most about the hobby. I LOVE to see an army someone spent so much time and effort on.

Exactly! That was the best part about building my Lost and the... Damned... army.

And now I'm sad again...

H.B.M.C. wrote:With the sheer amount of rules changes in this Codex (it appears that nothing has been left as it once was), I'd almost swear it was a Cruddance book.

I realy have to look up the (fake) leaked codex

H.B.M.C. wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:Erm...this is what some folks love most about the hobby. I LOVE to see an army someone spent so much time and effort on.

Exactly! That was the best part about building my Lost and the... Damned... army.

And now I'm sad again...

Feel the pain of Admech players.

ph34r wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:If its wargear available to any of the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus or Malleus Inquisitors (and ONLY from one; no mix and matching between them cause that would be unfair) then for an IC it can hardly be broken I believe. So I wouldn't be asking for permission as much as I would if I was using Forge World rules for example.

Course I can expect anally-uptight people getting all hot and bothered about not following it strictly to the letter.

(pretty near the city centre, in the Germiston/Royston area)

You want to make up rules? You had better be prepared to let me make up rules too. I hope you don't get all anally-uptight and hot and bothered about my rules.

(Directed at the general audience)

Yes, that's the point of GAMES - to have fun. Sometimes, it is fun to alter the rules to a well-worn system to see if it's FUN to play another way. Like tractor-trailers on highways, tournament gamers should be kept in a separate lane and never allowed to mix with actual human beings...

If I'm going to play you, there a some ground rules:

1) I'll try to have most of my stuff painted, but if it isn't and that's a problem - there's another table and another player *over there*.
2) Yeah, he's holding a plasma pistol - but it's an infernus pistol. It says it right here on my printed army list - which you are welcome to examine at any time. I'm not tearing up a model that's been painted for 10 years to make it WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG is an ideal to be approached, not a requirement for play. This is a friendly game, you can jam your WYSIWYG WTSDS.
3) I'd like to field Marines with stormbolters as a basic weapon. They are 22 points apiece. Yes, your nicely converted Eldar walker with distortion cannons is cool and fine by me. We good? OK, let's play.
4) No one will die if they lose this game. If something about it is not fun for you - let me know. Your fun IS ACTUALLY AS IMPORTANT AS MINE. Rest assured, if I'm not having fun, you're going to hear about it. My time is limited, and I have none to waste on poor sports.

Oh the old 'anyone that doesn't play how I want isn't play for fun' fall back. The whole point of WSIWYG is so pick up games aren't annoying and slowed down because a bunch of random models don't have their wargear modeled as per the rulebook.

Theduke07 wrote:Oh the old 'anyone that doesn't play how I want isn't play for fun' fall back. The whole point of WSIWYG is so pick up games aren't annoying and slowed down because a bunch of random models don't have their wargear modeled as per the rulebook.

Also if you dont have douchey friends, im sure they will let you use a normal inquisitor instead of a more-effective special character.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It interesting to see 'Nemesis Force Sword' rather than 'Nemesis Force Weapon' though.

And just think, if that had not been misreported, it would not have been in doubt.
But hey, sorry to get sidetracked. You should probably get back to crying about how new GK rules changes invalidate your army due to some totally-justified unwillingness to make use of available rules on your part.

vaatbak wrote:Feel the pain of Admech players.

I have an AdMech army. Figured I'd stay ahead of the curve this time and start an army that's never even had rules. AdMech was a good choice for that.


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ph34r wrote:But hey, sorry to get sidetracked. You should probably get back to crying about how new GK rules changes invalidate your army due to some totally-justified unwillingness to make use of available rules on your part.

And you can get back to needless hostility and trolling... oh wait... looks like you're already there.

Pg 15, and time for this thread to go over THERE >>>>

Can we just lock it now until some new rumors come out?

H.B.M.C. wrote:With the sheer amount of rules changes in this Codex (it appears that nothing has been left as it once was), I'd almost swear it was a Cruddance book.

VoidAngel wrote:Erm...this is what some folks love most about the hobby. I LOVE to see an army someone spent so much time and effort on.

Exactly! That was the best part about building my Lost and the... Damned... army.

And now I'm sad again...

Don't feel bad H.B.M.C. I had a Nurgle LatD army as well. Beat up and rusted Leman Russ tanks, and undead skeletal Guard. It was wonderful. Plague zombies too.

What new rumours are left, other than pics or details of the new models?

So are we only getting plastic PAGK, GKT and Dreadknights? Shame, I was hoping for more. Plastic assassins would have been nice.

Feel free to try again, someone, when new stuff shows up.

And in that potential future thread, please keep the personal attacks OUT, OK?

Thanks!