27872
Post by: Samus_aran115
I was thinking about the clawed fiend... It's the same price as an obliterator! That's pretty reasonable, the more I think about it (Although I see no reason why GW doesn't just sell three for 50$ or something, since everyone uses groups of three).... The kymaeras are pretty reasonable too. Metal terminator/ commissar price.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
The reason the creatures are metal, is simply because despite statements that in the future they will do this... they haven't really started making plastic kits for models that have a single configuration for 40k. Part of the problem is that a hypothetical plastic beastmaster kit would need to be pretty beefy and would likely end up as a plastic kit that comes off overpriced and verging on inadequate. Based on standard sprue sizes and the way GW tries to arrange boxsets into field-able units it would probably have been 3 beastmaster, a clawed fiend, 3-4 khymeras, and some number of flocks and cost $35. They were probably thinking, any player who wants these would want the ability to build their squad which ever way they want.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Jake
If you think they are value for money cool sculpts that's grand. We are entitled to disagree. However negative, pointless and ineffective they vent frustrations and disappointments.
People complain it's what they do
It's the internest
It's Dakka
Complaining about complaining is even more purile and pointless than the original expression of grievance.
If you don't like the smell of other peoples' farts, don't stick your head under their duvets.
Not seen those pics, sorry.
so still have no idea how big a big thing is.
Guess it's something I'll never know.
30339
Post by: The Fragile Breath
Samus_aran115 wrote:I was thinking about the clawed fiend... It's the same price as an obliterator! That's pretty reasonable, the more I think about it (Although I see no reason why GW doesn't just sell three for 50$ or something, since everyone uses groups of three).... The kymaeras are pretty reasonable too. Metal terminator/ commissar price.
You're my hero for saying this! 
I'm glad to see there are at least a few others here that are as excited about this release as I am.
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
I already said they were great minis, and I'd love to see someone field a Beastmaster-heavy army of them -- but yeah, they are silly money for something that is supposed to be fielded in quantity. People already complain about the price of an obliterator, but you can only fit 3 in a force org slot (£40 or so), and they're fairly expensive points-wise; you can potentially have, what, 25 Razorwing bases in one force org slot? For nearly £400? Funny stuff.
I am collecting DE as well as everything else, because I love the minis and the army is huge fun to play. But I am unlikely to buy any of this latest wave of metal minis. I will find some other way to make Razorwings, maybe using GW minis, maybe not. I don't think I'm alone in planning to do that, and I can't see that it's more economically viable for GW to sell the occasional single base of Razorwings to completists for £8 when they could be selling a five-pack of plastic ones to me and everyone else at maybe £15 a pack (which I'd readily pay -- at least, £15 less online discounter discount). If their corporate behemothicity is so behemothical that that's not possible, they should subcontract the job to the Perrys, and still make a profit.
20079
Post by: Gorechild
Ian Sturrock wrote:I already said they were great minis, and I'd love to see someone field a Beastmaster-heavy army of them -- but yeah, they are silly money for something that is supposed to be fielded in quantity. People already complain about the price of an obliterator, but you can only fit 3 in a force org slot (£40 or so), and they're fairly expensive points-wise; you can potentially have, what, 25 Razorwing bases in one force org slot? For nearly £400? Funny stuff.
I am collecting DE as well as everything else, because I love the minis and the army is huge fun to play. But I am unlikely to buy any of this latest wave of metal minis. I will find some other way to make Razorwings, maybe using GW minis, maybe not. I don't think I'm alone in planning to do that, and I can't see that it's more economically viable for GW to sell the occasional single base of Razorwings to completists for £8 when they could be selling a five-pack of plastic ones to me and everyone else at maybe £15 a pack (which I'd readily pay -- at least, £15 less online discounter discount). If their corporate behemothicity is so behemothical that that's not possible, they should subcontract the job to the Perrys, and still make a profit.
You can only have 10 razorwing flocks in a unit, its the 25 model Kymera squads that will cost more than a months rent 
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
Sorry, didn't have the codex to hand (and have only just started collecting DE after borrowing some of a friend's minis to do a test game). But yeah -- either way -- silly money for one force org slot that doesn't cost many points. Worse than Ogryn (which are widely considered to be too expensive...) or Oblits (likewise) or Hive Guard (likewise).
16487
Post by: Samus666
In response to a few points raised by various people over the past few pages...
You definitely can buy a 1000 point Dark Eldar army for less than a full size Beastmasters and Khymera unit. I've done it. It all depends on what units you choose and what you a equip them with. A very small amount of conversion work might be necessary (like making your own Archon or a special character).
Yes, the prices of these models are the same as those for models of similar size. Yes, those other models are overpriced too. And, personally, I was complaining due to the point to pounds ratio. Was I expecting them to cost less than other models of similar size? Yes, because the rest of the Dark Eldar minis are quite reasonably priced compared to other GW lines. Was I hoping for them to be smaller than they are? Again, yes, because there's nothing in their rules or descriptions to indicate that they should be almost monstrous creature sized. Since i guessed they'd be metal it never even occurred to me that they'd be made as prohibitively expensive large metal models.
Why the heck IS GW still making metal? I realise the upfront investment for plastic is higher than that for metal, so there's only so many plastic sets they can produce at one time. But seriously, I'd rather wait two years for a second wave of Dark Eldar plastics and get everything in plastic, than get metals now and wait ten years for the plastics. People don't want an endless repeat of poses. People don't want miniatures that have to be pinned and have paint chip off them. People don't want to have to pick up a hacksaw every time they do a conversion. People don't want to live in a cardboard box and live off rats to afford miniatures (ok, that last one is a slight exaggeration). If GW want their claims of being the rolls royce of minis to be taken seriously, they need to modernise.
On that theme, since it does make sense to sell beasts individually or in small numbers, but metal is too expensive, why exactly can't they sell plastic minis in blister packs? Why can't they sell small individual sprues, one mini on each? That's not rhetorical, honestly. I assume there must be a reason, so does anyone know what it is?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Khymera are growing on me by the way. Painted differently, they wouldn't have to look like a cliche'd skinless dog. The Fiend and Razorwings aren't winning me over though. Even though both are competently sculpted, the Fiend's aesthetic is unappealing (kinda looks cute and unthreatening, and the pose is unconvincing) and the Razorwings are woefully unimaginative. I guess I might be willing to buy one of each if they were cooler.
Note: multiple edits for typos
39627
Post by: Foo
I don't get why the Khymerae couldn't come in a box of five like the Incubi and Mandrakes, even at a greater cost. 2 Khymerae are roughly the cost of 5 Incubi or Mandrakes, which come with three poses in a box.
If anything, I would think the Incubi cost more to design and the same to make, no?
I don't understand the disparity.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Samus666 wrote:In response to a few points raised by various people over the past few pages...
You definitely can buy a 1000 point Dark Eldar army for less than a full size Beastmasters and Khymera unit. I've done it. It all depends on what units you choose and what you a equip them with. A very small amount of conversion work might be necessary (like making your own Archon or a special character).
Yes, the prices of these models are the same as those for models of similar size. Yes, those other models are overpriced too. And, personally, I was complaining due to the point to pounds ratio. Was I expecting them to cost less than other models of similar size? Yes, because the rest of the Dark Eldar minis are quite reasonably priced compared to other GW lines. Was I hoping for them to be smaller than they are? Again, yes, because there's nothing in their rules or descriptions to indicate that they should be almost monstrous creature sized. Since i guessed they'd be metal it never even occurred to me that they'd be made as prohibitively expensive large metal models.
Why the heck IS GW still making metal? I realise the upfront investment for plastic is higher than that for metal, so there's only so many plastic sets they can produce at one time. But seriously, I'd rather wait two years for a second wave of Dark Eldar plastics and get everything in plastic, than get metals now and wait ten years for the plastics. People don't want an endless repeat of poses. People don't want miniatures that have to be pinned and have paint chip off them. People don't want to have to pick up a hacksaw every time they do a conversion. People don't want to live in a cardboard box and live off rats to afford miniatures (ok, that last one is a slight exaggeration). If GW want their claims of being the rolls royce of minis to be taken seriously, they need to modernise.
On that theme, since it does make sense to sell beasts individually or in small numbers, but metal is too expensive, why exactly can't they sell plastic minis in blister packs? Why can't they sell small individual sprues, one mini on each? That's not rhetorical, honestly. I assume there must be a reason, so does anyone know what it is?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Khymera are growing on me by the way. Painted differently, they wouldn't have to look like a cliche'd skinless dog. The Fiend and Razorwings aren't winning me over though. Even though both are competently sculpted, the Fiend's aesthetic is unappealing (kinda looks cute and unthreatening, and the pose is unconvincing) and the Razorwings are woefully unimaginative. I guess I might be willing to buy one of each if they were cooler.
Note: multiple edits for typos
Yes. Just... yes. And Amen.
38762
Post by: Mantle
ChrisCP wrote:ChrisCP wrote:
What is that muscle membrane thing under it's left arm there for?
I think that's the inner thigh of its other leg 
(quote being awkward)
10920
Post by: Goliath
Happygrunt wrote:The whats new article was stupid, just FYI.
Care to give any reasons as to why it was stupid?
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
jake wrote:I missed that you were in Australia.
My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.
Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.
Wraithguard and Ogryns are fairly priced for their stature of models (Wraithguards being cheaper than most 25mm metal characters, while having potentially more metal in them, while Ogryns are about the same price as Kroxigors and the Clawed Fiend). Problem is, these units you have to run in moderate to high numbers, where the price starts to dramatically add up. Wraithguards can be forgiven as they're a holdover from 2nd or 3rd edition. Ogryns to some degree too. The Clawed fiend as well, but the Khymera and Razorwings, while still moderately priced compared to their equivallents, are not feasable on the consumer's end whatsoever. Beastmasters are apparently not that useful in the first place, making their models costing nearly an arm and a leg didnt help matters.
5111
Post by: MikeMcSomething
Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.
11564
Post by: Brothererekose
stuff already said ...
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.
I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.
On topic:
Here's my problem:
While the models ( possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.
Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.
RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.
Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.
BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.
A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038
I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.
A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=
I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.
Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.
Eric
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
MagickalMemories wrote:MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.
I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.
On topic:
Here's my problem:
While the models ( possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.
Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.
RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.
Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.
BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.
A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038
I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.
A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=
I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.
Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.
Eric
As I mentioned above, they didnt even need to make the Beastmaster as a separate set. The Hellion Box could have sufficed if they gave alternate parts to make the Beastmasters, with the RWs on the sprues. It would have sold like hotcakes. The Khyms, even if it was 30 bucks for 5, would still be a drastic improvement over this (look at the Chaos Knights from WHFB, it's a comparative price).
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
Ho hum... not an inspiring lot. The clawed fiend looks interesting but the prices are wacky. Nearly £10 apiece for this lot, I mean they are just a couple of birds or a muscled dog thing with extra arms.
Apologies for not searching the thread but why are they such odd prices, like £8.70 or £13.80? Have they not adjusted for VAT?
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
It's cuz they're all metal, so comparatively they're priced the same way as any other metal models (The Fiend is about on par with the likes of Ogryns, Kroxigors, and the metal Rat Ogres, while the Khyms are the same as metal characters. The Razorwings are about the same price as metal Swarms).
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah, MagickalMemories wrote:... I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits...
I don't think this is what most people are saying. But I think most people would have been happier with a metal beast master upgrade bits pack for a hellion kit than with a mono metal mini. This is the GW Iron warriors Kit and it sells for £10  If they had made a £10 kit like this, with 5 new beast master bodies and heads plus 3/4 extra arms with whips and prods... people would have been over the moon with a 5x beast master £25 box set. Hell this makes more sense because, if only one beast master per unit can have a agoniser as it is you have to convert each of the official beast master mini's after the first to make a legal squad. While I'm thinking about upgrade kits...I'll be having a look at what the spawn kit could do to Chaos Warhounds / Dire Wolves with regards to making Khymerae. MagickalMemories wrote:... the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue...
Based on the fact we had no idea what a razor wings looked like, they could have been smaller sharper minis (snotling sized) with 10 to 15 models per blister at £10 and everyone would have been happier. Panic...
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Almost all of the existing Swarm Units are plastic, which come on sprues of almost all units in the army. The only exception besides the RW is the Nurgling, mainly because back then all daemon models were metal and Papa Nurgle was never thrown a bone by the plastic gods.
In either case, Plastic beastmasters would have made so much more sense, as from the comments here, it doesnt seem anyone would use anything less than 3.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Almost all of the existing Swarm Units are plastic, which come on sprues of almost all units in the army...
I'm not so sure this is true.
Your correct for necrons... but and I can't think of another 40k unit swarm unit that this aplies to.
Rippers are metal.
Except for the single one you get on the termagant sprue (1 base of 4 identical rippers per box)... but this means buying termagants to get plastic rippers...
Does your statement even carry any weight in WHFB ? skaven swarms and snotlings are metal blisters... am I missing something?
Panic...
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
You get Rippers in Tyranid Warrior boxes, too. I have a feeling you get them in Stealer boxes (never bought a Stealer box though as I have enough minis from 2 editions of Space Hulk).
30339
Post by: The Fragile Breath
Ian Sturrock wrote:You get Rippers in Tyranid Warrior boxes, too. I have a feeling you get them in Stealer boxes (never bought a Stealer box though as I have enough minis from 2 editions of Space Hulk).
This is correct.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Comes in Stealer boxes, and they are currently the only source of Spinefist-equipped Rippers. Also, I was speaking exclusively for 40k, although various Skaven sprues also include the odd giant rat, which could be used to make swarms.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Comes in Stealer boxes, and they are currently the only source of Spinefist-equipped Rippers. Also, I was speaking exclusively for 40k, although various Skaven sprues also include the odd giant rat, which could be used to make swarms.
Yeah, and look at how well the Rat Ogres/Giant Rat boxes were received
25983
Post by: Jackal
Actually, plastic swarms are the minority here.
Plastic -
Rippers (every troop choice box has them)
Scarabs (crons)
Used to get snotlings with night gobbo's, but not anymore)
Metal -
Tomb swarms
Jungle swarms
Rat swarms
Nurgling swarms
Snotling swarms
Im sure ive missed some, but you get the idea.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
@ Kanluwen: Wasn't just talking about the Rat Ogre/Giant Rat box my quick-to-question friend =P http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440086a&prodId=prod1040494
As for the list of metal swarms. For what system and when were they made?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
I know.
But it was a point that's pretty good for this specific thread.
To get X amount of Giant Rats, you ended up with Y Rat Ogres and Packmasters. There comes a point where you have too many of each! 
However: Tomb Swarms+Jungle Swarms were released with their army books. Nurgling Swarms the same, Snotling and Rat Swarms too I think.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Point I was trying to get across was that they were fully capable of doing swarms on sprues, since they did two in the same game system before. In addition, the Razorwings seem to only have two variations in total (and both of which appear to be a one piece mold), meaning it wouldnt even had been that hard to make them on sprues.
And with the exception of the Tomb Swarms, none of the other swarms were released with their current army book. I know, I've seen those in previous editions.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
I didn't say "with their current army book".
I said they were "released with their army books".
The Nurglings I can go as far back as "Warriors of Chaos" and see the same models.
Tomb Swarms, of course, were with the Tomb Kings book.
Jungle Swarms came out with the previous Lizardmen book.
Snotlings I'm not sure about.
Rat Swarms are at least two book iterations old.
And I really wouldn't say they're "fully capable of doing swarms on sprues". One swarm per infantry box is not really "fully capable" I think.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Your right in saying they have the ability to make a swarm box.
wouldnt me much different from the gretchin box.
However, wouldnt be the best idea for thier proffit would it?
They are a small ish elite unit, no one will buy tons of them.
Being metal they charge more too.
I still say your better off finding some small humming bird toys from somewhere
I did look at warmaster eagles, but they are more expensive for 3 on a base lol. Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit:
Kan - Rat swarms came out with the previous book, in the same release as throt.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
How many Skaven books have there been anyways?
25983
Post by: Jackal
Current one, previous, and an old old one i think (dont quote me on that)
However, there was a PDF between the 1st and 2nd, and constant character update PDF's.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Man that reminds that someting along the lines of the swarm sprues of warhammer quest would be awesome, even if they did pack lots of diferent creatures in the sprues ( warhammer quest had 1 rat,1 bat( great sculpt the bat), 1 snotling and 1 spider ) I think they could release something like a regiment box but with all wfb swarms...I would buy some for sure.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:However, wouldnt be the best idea for thier proffit would it?
They are a small ish elite unit, no one will buy tons of them.
Being metal they charge more too.
Exactly. This is a clear case of money-grubbing on GW's part. However alot of people keep saying that because of the optional nature of the units, it's not possible to do them any other way other than have them as metal models, whereas there was an alternative staring them (and us) in the face. It was possible, feasable, and reasonable. But GW chose to fill it's wallets instead.
Not to mention the Clawed Fiend looks like Rafiki on steroids, at least to me.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Navarro - You used to get a swarm of each per box for £5
Good times.
Boxwork on the front had a pic of all 4 complete swarms.
That was also released along the time time as the mono-pose black orks wasnt it? 0_o
Mecha - While its allways nice to be good to a customer, priority #1 is to make money.
If it means the chance they will go elsewhere for a product, so be it.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Making money also means you give the consumers something they would buy. As it was, without an official mode, people were already going to different places for alternatives. Given that the model's expensive even by it's contemporary's standards, that wont change. This just means they sunk resources into a venture that had zero impact on the consumer's purchases.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Just done some hunting about, and found this:  That swarm is 6,00 € By far cheaper than the razors, and looks 1,000x better. Just looking through thier site now to see wht else they have. Just a quick edit, but also found these for 70E  Those are on 60mm bases Nice cyberwolves.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
That doesnt look like the GW batswarm, where did you find it?
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
So in your pursuit of profit you're more than happy to lose a sale to another company because of something that you could easily change, but refuse not to.
Makes perfect sense.
Seriously, other companies produce metal models and manage not to charge $15+ each for them. Why is GW incapable of doing that? Especially for non-character units that people will NEED to field more of? There's making money and then there's being a greedy douche just for the sake of it.
They can charge whatever they want obviously, but it's not good value for money. People are going to realize that and go elsewhere for their needs, and I swear GW will lose money on this investment because no one but collectors or painters will be buying the models (either that or the very rich who don't give a crap how much money they spend).
I'm not interested in beastmaster units so I'll be saving the $300 for more "reasonably priced" plastic models that I will make more use of. However if it cost half that to make a unit of them I probably would've indulged myself, since the models are really good-looking. I might even by a couple of khymera models just because, but it'll sadden me knowing I can never feasibly field a unit of them and they'll be for display only.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Most of the ire stems from the cost, which really baffles people, as it's something you'd expect GW to do back in 2nd edition, not now.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Navarro - You used to get a swarm of each per box for £5
Good times.
Boxwork on the front had a pic of all 4 complete swarms.
That was also released along the time time as the mono-pose black orks wasnt it? 0_o
.
I got mine on the warhammer quest box, there were quite a few in there, very usefull.
It was so long ago I dont remember the year 
Since you guys are hunting for bat swarms as substitutes, Reaper miniatures has one cool batswarm.
25983
Post by: Jackal
That doesnt look like the GW batswarm, where did you find it?
Masq-mini's i think lol, trying to find the URL again.
I think that alone looks good enough to be a razorwing swarm.
Navarro - it was close to before my time
Only 21 as it is, but i used to go to the local hobby shop every now and then and buy a few things, that was the 1st thing i ever brought lol.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Navarro - it was close to before my time
Only 21 as it is, but i used to go to the local hobby shop every now and then and buy a few things, that was the 1st thing i ever brought lol.
How cool is that, hey?  The first mini you get will be forever carved in your memory ( mine was a Chaos Dwarf renegade from citadel the ones prior to the big hats).
But going back to that GW swarm even in those early days the plastic and cast was so nice, specially the bat tiny feet... Good memories indeed.
BTW found the reaper swarm:
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Reaper swarms definately is the best. They look like they'll tear your face off with their teeth alone, to say nothing of what they'll do to ya with their wings.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Alot of the old GW box sets were ace, even if mono-pose.
Things like skink units (when they could take bows!) were part of the £5 box sets.
And 12 skink for £5 is pretty damn nice lol.
£20 for 24 now, or £20 for double back then? mono-pose every time please.
The reaper swarm is pretty nice, just goes to show what detail can be put into a model.
I rather throw away £5 on a tube of GF9 GS (cheaper and more than GW's) and sculpt 5 or so swarms from it than buy GW's ones.
Speaking of which navarro, there may have been a hint in that last bit mate
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Alot of the old GW box sets were ace, even if mono-pose.
Things like skink units (when they could take bows!) were part of the £5 box sets.
And 12 skink for £5 is pretty damn nice lol.
£20 for 24 now, or £20 for double back then? mono-pose every time please.
The reaper swarm is pretty nice, just goes to show what detail can be put into a model.
I rather throw away £5 on a tube of GF9 GS (cheaper and more than GW's) and sculpt 5 or so swarms from it than buy GW's ones.
Speaking of which navarro, there may have been a hint in that last bit mate
One of the oldest plastics and still quite nice considering its age were the stealers, they aged really well... I wonder if in a few decades further ahead in time any of these new models will age so well.
I think the GW "crows" are quite usefull for generic stuff, cool swarms are not very abundant even on the competition catalogues.
As for sculpting them I think that its not a very simple thing to cast ( and maybe thats the reason we dont see many flyiers swarms) although personally I think a well designed pack of swarms would sell like hotcakes if well priced.
39627
Post by: Foo
MagickalMemories wrote:MikeMcSomething wrote:Does anyone really know how much GW spends on making a plastic kit vs a metal one (and how much of that money is actually spent effectively) anyway? We "know" from what they tell us that it's quite a bit more up front but these are also the guys that made plastic Chaos Spawn.
I don't have any links but, if yous earch online, you should find plenty. In all honesty, I can't tell you how many times I've read that topic rehashed over and over again. Probably a horrible idea for this thread of deviolve into that discussion.
On topic:
Here's my problem:
While the models ( possibly excepting the RWings) are 100% on par with GW's pricing for comparable models, that does not excuse the fact that they're too expensive for what you receive. IMO, there's no good reason for this release to have happend as it did, and I cannot make myself understand it.
Clawed Fiends are metal. I can wrap my brain around this. The most you're going to field in a unit is 5 and, even if they sold them as a boxed set of 5, they're probably not going to sell enough boxes (at a max of 3 per army) to justify the more expensive plastic molds.
Okay. I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
See above, re: price, however.
RazorWings... Amazingly underwhelming. The sculpts only look half right. I see "wing," but I don't see "razor." That said, you get 4 birds on 3 stands per base at a crazy-expensive price for what you get.
These should have been handled (and I know I'm not the first to say this) like Rippers * Scarabs, along with a beastmaster boxed set. I'll get back to this point later, though.
Khymerae. Come on. Really? This is my biggest disappointment in the release. Moreso than the metal BMaster, even. Khy are fielded up to 5 at a time. You can have 25 of the dang things in a unit. These should have been done in 10 model plastic sprues. Sure, some people would have "had" to buy more than they wanted but really, GW already has a policy of doing what THEY want & not what the consumer wants. So, why not choose to do something that's going to make at least SOME people happy? I'd wager that your happy to dissatisfied ratio would be a LOT better with 10 plastic Khy's than it is with the way they did it now.
BMasters should have been in a box of 5 by themselves. I don't agree that there should have been bits in a Hellion box. I belive they should've taken the Hellion sprues, removed what was not BMaster appropriate & replaced it with BMaster appropriate bits. Again, some would've been forced to buy more than they wanted, but see "Khymerae' above for my rebuttal.
A box of VC Dire Wolves is about $25 USD:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Same for Chaos Warhounds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440109a&prodId=prod1570038
I don't see wht Khy's couldn't have been done in a 10-strong box @$30... Heck, even at $40 or $50, it would be a far more acceptable product.
A box of DE Hellions is $25.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440235a&rootCatGameStyle=
I don't see why BMasters couldn't have been done as a unit of 5 for $30! Just like with Nids and necrons, the "little models," the RWings, could've been bits on the sprue. A box of 5 BMasters for $30 to even $40 also comes with 3 bases of RWings. Bamf. Done.
Honestly, at the prices GW is charging, I'm still going to have 1 or 2 units of 5 Beastmasters. I'm going to eventually have 50 Khymerae, 2 CFiends and probably 10 RWings. Only the Beastmasters will be GW models, though, and they'll be converted from hellions. Everything else will be supplied by Reaper, Privateer Press, etc.
Eric
I agree with this post.
In fact, I agree so much, that if I do decide to include a Beastmaster squad, I'm going to be sure not to buy any of the Khys or birds from G-W and will substitutes from other companies.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
Those swarm boxes came at the end of an era, with the reminents of the Warhammer Quest beasties. same as when they released the "Heros" and "Wizards" sets that had the full range of the same sculpt hero guys in them. They had the Idea because they were clearing warehouses of old product, so what better way to do it then sell them as bonus package types. They acted like they were giving you a deal, but in reality, they were just getting rid of excess.
As to the sculpts-
Those Beasts can be revetted to include pretty much any other one you can find, aside from those choices... I've been seening more then enough stand ins to let me have as many if more options for even a quarter of the price. As for the beastmaster itself, if you wanted, if you so chose, you could use bits from the other boxed sets of the range, or even some of the old beastmasters from the fantasy range to make a perfectly viable stand-in.
Sorry GW, but you pulled a boneheaded play with these models. P!@# poor planning, P!@# poor execution. While every other model we've been seeing is going the way of plastic, we see them pulling this out of the Archives, as if they already had the model, but were waiting for a chance to release it.(which, by the way that it looks is most likely the case.)
There is no reason int he world, except for shortsightedness that these didn't come in plastic, and all together as a package deal in the same box.
All around Bad models and a trainwreck of a deal... ( You need a thumbs down Orkmoticon for this one.)
18045
Post by: Snord
Foo wrote:
I agree with this post.
That doesn't mean you had to quote the whole thing!  The same applies to everyone who quoted multiple photos in order to post a one line comment.
It looks to me as though GW had done the bare minimum necessary to enable people to field these units. I suspect that they intend to replace these metal models with plastic ones in due course, but didn't feel confident that they could get enough sales to do them in plastic straight off. That's not really a justification for these high prices though - I guess the only consolation is that the basic DE plastic sets aren't too pricey, compared to some other plastics.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals):
Plastic:
Metal:
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals)
Can you please link somewhere that these can be purchased for cheaper than the Khy's? I like them very much, but can't find them for sale at any of the retail sites I've visited online.
I'm not talking about bidding on them. I like a set price, where I can just by them at my liesure. Don't want a bidding war.
FWIW, that isn't just for KH. ANYONE who could do that, I'd be highly appreciative.
Eric
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
MagickalMemories wrote:Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals)
Can you please link somewhere that these can be purchased for cheaper than the Khy's? I like them very much, but can't find them for sale at any of the retail sites I've visited online.
I'm not talking about bidding on them. I like a set price, where I can just by them at my liesure. Don't want a bidding war.
FWIW, that isn't just for KH. ANYONE who could do that, I'd be highly appreciative.
Eric
Dirz tigers metals versions are more detailed but you can only get those on ebay or private trading with someone... On ludik bazar you can still just buy some spare parts of those metal tigers...
As for prepainted tigers go here:
http://www.ludikbazar.com/product_info.php?products_id=52767
Good luck.
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Those plastic tigers may have to go onto my list of Confrontation models to puck up cheap.
30888
Post by: btemple0
I take it that you only get the 3 birds for a single blister, if that is the case then I guess I could just cough up enough for one and use it for D&D.....
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
4 to be exact (and you can fill 4 bases if you want it cheap). Didn't understand the last part of your post though.
22547
Post by: ChrisCP
Kroothawk wrote:A good and cheaper stand-in for the Khymeras are the OOP Rackham Confrontation Dirz Tigers (plastic box of three or old metals):
Plastic:
Metal:
Wow when were these made? Have a funny feeling that GW has just infringed on someones IP. And if they'd done that to GW it would be boot-fist-cease-and-desist time.
30305
Post by: Laughing Man
IP LAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT.
256
Post by: Oaka
When I first saw the razor flock models I immediately thought "Oh, I thought they had 5 wounds, they must only have 4, obviously, look at the model". That's really one of the worst model designs for in-game rules I've seen.
What if GW had released that Dark Eldar FAQ and stated that beastmaster beasts DO benefit from pain tokens, and then released these overpriced models? Would that be too obvious of a money grab? If GW can show restraint like that, there is hope after all...
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
It's pretty obvious they're really trying for a cash grab here, given that they also did a "pitfight" article on it on What's New Today during the release, and prettymuhc giving a unanimous "this is great" rating despite (if I remember correctly) most of the beasts tanking when faced with MEQs.
39627
Post by: Foo
Tailgunner wrote:Foo wrote:
I agree with this post.
That doesn't mean you had to quote the whole thing.
I did. That's how much I agreed with it!
30888
Post by: btemple0
Anyone know if there is a miniature of GLADoS from portal in a 28mm scale, because I would like to use that as a proxy for a succubus.
459
Post by: Hellfury
$14 for a single warpbeast?!?
 
I think not.
Nice models, but ultimately...no.
[edit]
Actually after thinking about it, I don't think my post described the depths of ridiculousness that this price point incurs.
What the feth is GW smoking? There is no way in fething hell I would ever bu that model as nice as it looks. If for no other reason than a moral obligation to show GW that it is one less person that is willing to get that [Mod Edit - Please, no.] for a single models ...of an entire unit.
I wouldn't trade for it either on the same grounds.
I didn't read through this thread before posting and now that I have read it, I just have to say to those who do think this is a good deal that you should have your money taken away for being [Mod Edit - Again, no.]. GW will be very happy to oblige you in this.[/edit]
7597
Post by: Kirbinator
That may have been a little much, don't you think? Do you feel people running Iyanden Eldar lists with troop Wraithguard are epithet edited as well? Wraithguard, while being more points-heavy, are the same price and must be run at 10 models per group to count as troops. An Iyanden list with two troops worth of Wraithguard are $300, not including the rest of the army.
I'd definitely agree it's more than I'm personally willing to pay, but for those that really want it and have the disposable income can make that choice without any personal jabs at their preferred way to part with their money.
123
Post by: Alpharius
I'm all for hyperbole as literary device, but really Hellfury, you might want to pump the brakes on this rant a bit...
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Kirbinator wrote:That may have been a little much, don't you think? Do you feel people running Iyanden Eldar lists with troop Wraithguard are ass clowns as well? Wraithguard, while being more points-heavy, are the same price and must be run at 10 models per group to count as troops. An Iyanden list with two troops worth of Wraithguard are $300, not including the rest of the army.
I'd definitely agree it's more than I'm personally willing to pay, but for those that really want it and have the disposable income can make that choice without any personal jabs at their preferred way to part with their money.
To be fair, Wraithguards came out during the 3rd edition Eldar codex, where everything bar the vehicles and perhaps one troop choice (I'm not quite sure if the foot guardians featured in the Blue Eldar Codex were metal or plastic) were made of metal. Back then there wasnt much in the way of technology for making them into plastic. Now, however, there's no excuse, especially with the Razorwings, which look like they could easily reproduce in plastic.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Actually, Wraithguard have been out since the second edition Codex, IIRC. And in the 2nd edition book, the Guardians were mainly metal, but they were available in static-pose plastic with Lasguns. Not Shuriken Catapult upgrade except for the metal ones.
Relevant link: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Eldar_(Warhammer_40k_2nd_Edition)_-_Collectors_Guide
459
Post by: Hellfury
OFF TOPIC RANT REDACTED BY MANNAHNIN
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Hellfury wrote:Alpharius wrote:I'm all for hyperbole as literary device, but really Hellfury, you might want to pump the brakes on this rant a bit...
Brilliant. I get censored for using language unbecoming and the poster right below me and above your post is validated in its use?
Dakka Moderation as usual.
Well, since you're so happy with us to begin with, I don't imagine it will have any further negative impact for me to snip your rant as off-topic. I will, of course, edit the aforementioned poster's post to make the language enforcement more consistent. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just clarifying, those plastic one-pose guardians had a separate plastic bit which was the lasgun/hands, and there was a metal shuriken cat/hands bit which could be used instead. I believe I still have a blister of them in amonst my Eldar stuff. Metal one-piece Guardians with Shuriken Catapults were available too; I have a few in my army.
39627
Post by: Foo
Hmm. I cannot argue with that picture of Adam West on an elephant, even if I were so inclined.
*edit* Oh, it's gone now.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
I was afraid to call an actual date since I wasnt sure, but them being older just furthers my point, since back in 2nd ed almost everything was metal (even a metal thunderhawk!).
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Yeah, but that just makes it even MORE heinous that they haven't been replaced with plastics.
I seriously hope that someone at GW is secretly working on amazing Eldar plastics as we speak. They need them. Badly.
|
|
