As seen here

Succubus would made a good Valkia for WoC!

Thank God I did a last second search before posting my own thread about this.

They look great, I particulary like the Clawed Fiend. But the Razorwings don't look as ferocious as I think they should, however, that is probably just me being negative.

The sculpts look awesome but, I have to say, anyone else going to bother making a large beast master unit with these considering it'll cost something like £100.

I'll probably pick up the Succubus though...

The second Khymera looks almost identical to the Forge World Chaos Spawn.

*posting for the work blocked*

Yeah, they all look awesome, but I'm not even going to think about making beastmaster units until they come out in plastic. Too expensive.

Still waiting on haemonculi units and the venom. I thought the rumor was they would all come out with the succubus and beastmaster stuff, but I guess not.

Incredibly expensive!

£8 for a single 12pts model...

Unexpected! Or at least I wasn't expecting to see them this morning.

The Succubus looks great. I like the Lilith model fine, but I honestly like this one even more! The Clawed Fiend is great! Big and scary. I love it! The Kymera are just gross. Eww. Well done, but totally squiky. I'm still getting two and hoping that my dark blue color scheme will tone down it's creepiness. The Beast Master is fine, but I can't think of a reason to buy one when I'm already going to be getting an extra Hellion box for the 4 beast masters I'll need. The Razorwing flocks are just really boring though. Not badly sculpted just... that's it? They couldn't think of anything more exciting than generic, soaring birds?


So what else are people using for Razorwings?

More Dark Eldar, yay!! No Venom, boo......

Seriously, nice surprise. Hopefully that means that more of the army will surprise it's way in over the next couple months.

Surprise Scourges. Surprise Venom.

EDIT: I have to say though, why would you buy their beastmaster when you could just convert one from the Hellions?

Thoughts:

Beastmaster: "What an unfortunate hat you've chosen to wear, you silly, silly man."

Succubus: Decent enough. But she's looking less "battle-hardened warrior woman" and more "insecure 18 year old cosplayer who put on every punk accessory she owned to try and impress the DJ on club night. "No really! I'm tough! Can't you tell by my enormous spear?" Next time leave some of the accessories in a foot locker back in the webway.

Clawed Fiend: Really well-sculpted details, but I can't help but think it's a very un-dynamic ripoff of a certain earthborn dire troll.

Khymera 1 & 2: Holy skinless dogs, Batman! Excellent models. I like the tentacles and weird bony not-quite-limbs. This may also be the world record winner for greatest improvement of a model between codex iterations. But, given how they started, there really was no where to go but up.

Razorwing Flock: So um, birds. Yeah. ....

You know a sculpt has stumbled a bit when the promotion from the web team starts with words to the effect of: They may not look like much, but they're really dangerous! Just look at their stats! (Don't look at the miniatures).


Overall a release that corrects some atrocious sins of past models and at least manages to not offer new atrocious sins. But really... meh. Everything apart from the Khymerae are really making it look like the design team started running out of steam after the 1st wave. Let's hope they bring things back whenever they get around to releasing the wracks/grotesques.

I don't about losing steam... the Succubus looks ace, and will probably be as customizable as the Archon. that's a huge plus! The Beast Master would be cooler if he had the same level of customization, but he's not bad. The Razorwings are a miss though. But the Clawed Fiend? Totally awesome, and totally unlike anything else in the line! I love it!

Is it just me, or is the Beastmaster wearing a baby Clawed Fiend skull for a helmet? A helmet with no appropriately placed eye-holes, at that.

Nearly £10 a model?

GW can do one...

jake wrote:The Beast Master would be cooler if he had the same level of customization, but he's not bad.

The Beast Master would be great, if his helmet didn't make me picture him constantly bumping into walls he can't see because he wanted to be spooky and not drill some freaking eye-holes.

EDITED TO ADD: I do love making fun of the silly head, but really any Beast Master model only has to be impressive enough to not look terrible. No one ever cares about the guy with the whip, only the big, bad beasties who stand in front of them. As long as they look cool, the Beast Master only has to not trip over his own feet. So as long as he's not with a flock of razorwings, he'll be fine.

But the Clawed Fiend? Totally awesome, and totally unlike anything else in the line! I love it!

And totally lacking any sense of motion!

I think it's a case of excellent design marred by disappointing execution.

JOHIRA wrote:The Beast Master would be great, if his helmet didn't make me picture him constantly bumping into walls he can't see because he wanted to be spooky and not drill some freaking eye-holes.

That's not a helmet. That's his FACE. Or is it? It's certainly painted like it could be, and really, since the Beastmaster is clearly based on the bit of fluff that Kabalites are big on body modification, such as implanting spider eyes into their heads, it definitely should be.

JOHIRA wrote:

But the Clawed Fiend? Totally awesome, and totally unlike anything else in the line! I love it!

And totally lacking any sense of motion!

I think it's a case of excellent design marred by disappointing execution.

Lacking any sense of motion? look at it again. It's lunging forward. I think that at first glance the photo may make it look more static than it actually is.

I see a good chooser of the slain!

The others, I say meh

Beastmaster- Dislocated shoulder, hands of diferent sizes, broken wrist dislocated neck and goofy head. Pose loks like hes having a dump.

Succubus- crapachan bicep muscle, sigh... nice model overall.

Clawed fiend- Messy head so messy it spoils the model... pose is ok escept the stupid tipitytoe on the rock Love the torso muscles.

Kymeras... errr many years ago rackham did Dirz tigers a concept very similar to this yet the sculpting was million light years away from this goofy headed things

crows- very usefull and decently done.

For the prices "Nearly £10 a model?" these are NOT in that league of quality sculpting.

23 Ponds for a clawed one, 15.6? for a Master... in Aus (37 & 23)
...
At this rate I don't even want to trust in the painting... I'm sure it's been 'buffed' in my cynical mind.
And why would DE the stabbiest of the stabby, have something that appears less threatening than a crow & rounder than a seagull....

I'll echo the majority here. Pretty cool models, but too expensive for "grunts".

JOHIRA wrote:Succubus: Decent enough. But she's looking less "battle-hardened warrior woman" and more "insecure 18 year old cosplayer who put on every punk accessory she owned to try and impress the DJ on club night. "No really! I'm tough! Can't you tell by my enormous spear?" Next time leave some of the accessories in a foot locker back in the webway.

HAHAHA funniest thing i've heard on dakka.

Actually apart from the beastmaster (better to convert one out of a Hellion IMO) and the razorwing flocks which are just birds the rest are good for the task. But GW honestly, your telling me the most dangerous flying beast unit in the 40k universe is a flock of birds?

Someone was watching too much Hitchcock.

Maybe they're Hitchcock fans


Damn, NINJA'D !!!

Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, they all look awesome, but I'm not even going to think about making beastmaster units until they come out in plastic. Too expensive.

Don't hold your breath. I would not expect plastic beastmasters in any less than 10 years. Hell, maybe never.

I like the clawed fiend and khymerae models but the beastmaster is definately going to be a conversion job.

Does anyone know of some good 28mm scale birds that could be used instead? Hell, I might scuplt some of my own if it comes to that, I'm sure I could make them look a bit meaner...

Ill definitely pick up the sucubbus eventually and maybe the Beastmaster, but the rest is too expensive so proxies will have to do.

Too damned expensive to even consider beastmaster units! But that Succubus may be a fine addition to my army as I might prefer her to Lelith, although I would have to file down those Arnie Biceps. I know DE are all about body perfection but Conan in drag is a bit extreme!

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus that the Razorwing Flock looks just like... a buncha birds...
But that's great, because it means I can buy a whole bunch and add them to my Raven Guard Army!

I was expecting the razorwings to be more bat-like than just angry birds, the sculpts are good, just a little unimaginative imo. The beastmaster is dissapointing though.

Everything else I'm very impressed with though.

And now I can't stop laughing at the Clawed fiend's triple nipples, seriously why?

Killmaimburnkillmaimburn wrote:And now I can't stop laughing at the Clawed fiend's triple nipples, seriously why?

So it can feed your young!

Killmaimburnkillmaimburn wrote:And now I can't stop laughing at the Clawed fiend's triple nipples, seriously why?

What has been seen cannot be unseen! damn it, I really liked that model for about 10 minutes but now I'll never be able to take it seriously

Jesus these are expensive!

The price of the (rather lame) Razorwings is just amazing...

4 Beastmasters, 5 Kymera, 6 Razorwing flocks (what I'd call a proper beast unit) comes in at £124.50. Thats disgusting.
You can make an entire army for that!

I like them, nice characterful sculpts, really like the beastmaster the most.

The succubus suffers from man-face syndrome. She look exactly like Hugo Weaving as Elrond.




Also, I really like the Razorwings. However I think there is definitely a paintjob fail on them because they did a shoddy job of NMM on the primary feathers. It should be chrome-bright if they're going to do NMM to contrast with the dark color of the birds. And the red streak on the head is weird.

The best part is the razorwings can be used in all sorts of ways... I've been dying for birds to add to my WE for a while, so this is really cool. My one beef is the photo... Only 3 come in the blister pack. Adding that 4th on the end is a little deceptive, because my first response was, "huh, 4 for ~$12, thats not too bad." No, its 3 for ~$12 which is quite different. After realizing this, it is really bizarre how they have the 3 on the base, and that 4th one is just sort of like, "Hi, I'm floating here to make the flock look bigger and more dynamic". Hrm. Just bizarre.

Edit: fix typo

I like everything except for the Succubus. She looks too generic, one could probably bash together an equally convincing model from Warrior and Wych bits.

I love the Chymera models, but I would never use them for that price. Chaos Hounds are the way to go instead.

Nice, but too expensive.

What weapon has the Succubus got in her left hand?

Guess I'll still be converting my Succy after all. I really hope the DE get a plastic HQ kit like other armies have.

Gymnogyps wrote:

"huh, 4 for ~$12, thats not too bad." No, its 3 for ~$12 which is quite different. After realizing this, it is really bizarre how they have the 3 on the base, and that 4th one is just sort of like, "Hi, I'm floating here to make the flock look bigger and more dynamic". Hrm. Just bizarre.

Edit: fix typo

I think one of the birds is attached to another, making the miniature count 3, but the actual amount of birds, 4

Gymnogyps wrote: My one beef is the photo... Only 3 come in the blister pack. Adding that 4th on the end is a little deceptive, because my first response was, "huh, 4 for ~$12, thats not too bad." No, its 3 for ~$12 which is quite different. After realizing this, it is really bizarre how they have the 3 on the base, and that 4th one is just sort of like, "Hi, I'm floating here to make the flock look bigger and more dynamic". Hrm. Just bizarre.

I think the top two birds are made into the same piece by the looks of it, the wings are touching. If they aren't then i think the base will look a bit sparse with just the three.

Edit: aah Ninja'd!

Gymnogyps wrote:The succubus suffers from man-face syndrome. She look exactly like Hugo Weaving as Elrond.

I found a better picture:

Wow if it is 2 connected together by the wing tips like that, how long till that tiny plastic pin snaps? Eek.

SkaerKrow wrote:I like everything except for the Succubus. She looks too generic, one could probably bash together an equally convincing model from Warrior and Wych bits.

I don't think you could. I mean, you could build one that kind of looks the same, but the armor, weapons, hair, tabard and face wouldn't be nearly as detailed. There's a lot of little, fine detail there that doesn't exist on the Wyche sprue. It's your call of course, but I personally like my commanders to look more detailed than my stock troops. I think this new model does that nicely.

Phototoxin wrote:Succubus would made a good Valkia for WoC!

Definitely! Thanks for pointing that out.

I like a lot the Succubus. The Beastmaster and the beasts are pretty good and would make their role. Despite the... birds. But the beasts are EXPENSIVE in capital letters. A expensive unit that won't probably be decisive in the tabletop.

Great models, but I am a little annoyed that they are metal. My list is based around units of beastmasters and khymerae (30 in my list) and I will never have the money for this many metal models

There good enough I suppose, although I don't field any beastmasters so price is a downer for people who do, but look on the bright side inquisitorial players, cyber eagle thing to make your inquisitor look a bit cooler? (and also a chooser of the slain for the SW players)

Succubus looks great, as do the beasts. GW has been killing it in the mini department at least imho

People will probably buy a Hellions box + some leftover agonizers from other plastic kits instead of buying a unit of x times this same metal sculpt.

The Clawed Fiend and the Razorwings look fine Imo, but the hound-things not so much.

I dislike the succubus and beastmaster.

I'd probably buy Razorwings and Clawed Fiends, but use something else as Khymerae. I don't have fifty pounds to burn on just them.

beastmaster is too chunky for an elf & the razor wings are just poo - I will be using bats painted a funny colour me thinks.

The rest are great!
Also it doesn't mention whether the bm's board is plastic or metal.

Ketara wrote:I'd probably buy Razorwings and Clawed Fiends, but use something else as Khymerae. I don't have fifty pounds to burn on just them.

+ a little converting, green stuff and 40k bits.

I think the Succubus looks pretty good, and I'm not seeing the similarity to Hugo Weaving or transvestites. The amount of paraphernalia on her is no more OTT than other DE models. Although I also agree that it would be fairly straightforward to convert a Succubus from the Wych and Warrior parts (they are in fact almost as detailed as this model). I prefer her to Lilith, although she's less dynamic.

The Beastmaster looks like a bit of a throwaway. I suspect a trainee sculptor did him, as many of the details are rather ham-fisted (such as the stomach muscles). Again, I think it would be easy to convert Beastmasters from Hellions and Wyches.

The beasts are well done - especially the Khymera - and they have something about them which is reminiscent of the original RT rulebook's nasty fauna (Ptera-Squirrels etc). The Razorwings are bad designs, however, as they look neither alien nor scary (the Razorwing does actually date back to the RT rulebook, and looked much like these models). Nice sculpts though.

Pretty cool models, but this may end up being the most expensive ($$$$) stock model unit in 40K.

Wracks! were are my wracks!? I love the beastmaster model though, and was stunned at the succubus. Great sculpts.

Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

TBH I'd use them as is - terror no?

Asrodrig wrote:I agree with what seems to be the general consensus that the Razorwing Flock looks just like... a buncha birds...
But that's great, because it means I can buy a whole bunch and add them to my Raven Guard Army!

At 20 Cad $s a base you sure about that?
(Also as I don't know how to reset my proxie or whatever what does GW want in your dollars on your site? It's 13 GBP for a Flock here.

Awesome sculpts, obscene prices.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

Because it's cool to hate. In all seriousness I have noticed this as well, but then I don't really care for other people's opinions about models. As long as I think they're cool thats all that matter to me.

L. Wrex

TBD wrote:

Ketara wrote:I'd probably buy Razorwings and Clawed Fiends, but use something else as Khymerae. I don't have fifty pounds to burn on just them.

+ a little converting, green stuff and 40k bits.

They'll work. Thanks!

I love the succubus, but that beastmaster is made of fail, imo.

I have no use for the Khymeras, but they are exceedingly well done.

I think the Beastmaster just show's we're all better off kitbashing the hellions.

I think they are all excellent models. I have very few complaints other than some minor issues over the Succubus' pose and the annoying skulls on the beastmaster's flying machine.

They are great. They are also insanely expensive. Prohibatively so, especially given the numbers needed. As people have already pointed out, a unit would be the same price as you'd need to create a whole other army in plastic.

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

Well, for me it's pretty simple: If GW wants us to pay Porsche prices, then then need to give us Porsche-quality models. At this price range, even minor sculpting problems become serious reasons not to buy the models. Either give me a discount or give me perfection.

Good models but way to much money.

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

1. My Dark Eldar Torture and Enslave.
2. Beast units are critical to my torture and enslavement.
3. Seagulls are not effective tools of pain and misfortune (except to parked cars and abandoned hot dogs).

Those steps of logic dictate that I cannot put these seagulls into my list. And where these khymerae are $15 apiece, I still have 5 warp beasts that are well done, and 10 LOTRO Wargs that I was going to convert - cost me $30 for two boxes.

*EDIT* And my razorwing flocks are taking the following form: Necron Scarab swarms that have had literal razor wings glued onto their sides. That's right. Flying robots with razor wings.

Dashofpepper wrote:
1. My Dark Eldar Torture and Enslave.
2. Beast units are critical to my torture and enslavement.
3. Seagulls are not effective tools of pain and misfortune (except to parked cars and abandoned hot dogs).

Those steps of logic dictate that I cannot put these seagulls into my list. And where these khymerae are $15 apiece, I still have 5 warp beasts that are well done, and 10 LOTRO Wargs that I was going to convert - cost me $30 for two boxes.

But think of the conversion opportunities! You could buy the wrecked rhino and paint bird droppings on it! All those space marines screaming with one fist in the air? Just model the last little bit of a hot dog in that fist, and they are cursing your diabolical, hot-dog filching Razorwings!

Over $150 for a modest sized unit! WTF is GW thinking?

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

It's not a bandwagon if it's justified. I like the Succubus just fine, but the birds are unintimidating and mundane for what they're supposed to represent, and the Beastmaster unit is brutally expensive for its points.

5 Beastmaster w/ 5 Khymera each 360 points $425.00

I'm going to have to purchase both of the Khymerae, as well as the Clawed Fiend, even though I don't play Dark Eldar. I love the idea of someday having painted monsters from all over the 40k universe sitting in a display case , so I hope they keep making more beasties!

Dashofpepper wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

1. My Dark Eldar Torture and Enslave.
2. Beast units are critical to my torture and enslavement.
3. Seagulls are not effective tools of pain and misfortune (except to parked cars and abandoned hot dogs).

Those steps of logic dictate that I cannot put these seagulls into my list. And where these khymerae are $15 apiece, I still have 5 warp beasts that are well done, and 10 LOTRO Wargs that I was going to convert - cost me $30 for two boxes.

*EDIT* And my razorwing flocks are taking the following form: Necron Scarab swarms that have had literal razor wings glued onto their sides. That's right. Flying robots with razor wings.

Are you sure you're not moelling for advantage then?
But seriously, given the cost and asthetics... I do not want to use these models. As many people have said, it's possible to build something that many would consider better (a whole army, to take it over the cliff) for less.

JOHIRA wrote:

Clawed Fiend: Really well-sculpted details, but I can't help but think it's a very un-dynamic ripoff of a certain earthborn dire troll.

I knew I'd seen that pose before...

Can't help but think the succubus looks mannish, when I first saw it on the advanced order page I had a chuckle about them releasing a male succubus, guess I was wrong.

The models are okay, the weakest are the Beastmaster and flock of Seaguls (as Dash pointed out ) although I think the Succubus, and the Khymera are very nice.

Hell I'd grab a Succubus for one of my Eldritch Raiders, but I don't want to duplicate too many figs from Aurelia's Dark Eldar army.

I am stunned at the prices though, not so much as how much the figures cost as individuals, but the cost to make a decent unit.

Its got to be one of the most expensive units point for pound GW has ever done.

olympia wrote:Over $150 for a modest sized unit! WTF is GW thinking?

I think that's a valid point. Since these models are for use in quantity as a unit they are potentially cost prohibitive. Every army has such a unit, Ogryns for IG, Wraithguard for Eldar, Immortals for Necrons, now the Dark Eldar have one too. Buying one of each of those would be tough enough, buying several of each quickly becomes as much money as a large core of whole armies available in plastic.

It's interesting isn't it, that GW have said they have priced things like Goldswords and other elite plastics at a much higher price than the 'rank and file' plastics due to their placement in the army book or codex.

I wonder then how they can explain the incredible price for a rank and file beast that's more expensive than some character models?

I'm sure we're going to see alot of Chaos hounds standing in for Khymeras. Those are $25 for 10.

The converters' alternative to

canute wrote:5 Beastmaster w/ 5 Khymera each 360 points $425.00

Is a box of Hellions and 2.5 boxes of Chaos Hounds or $87-$100, depending on what you do with that other 5 hounds... 1/5th the cost.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's interesting isn't it, that GW have said they have priced things like Goldswords and other elite plastics at a much higher price than the 'rank and file' plastics due to their placement in the army book or codex.

I wonder then how they can explain the incredible price for a rank and file beast that's more expensive than some character models?

It's almost like they didn't look at the codex and realise you need 10-20 models to make the unit viable before they made them. If Beastmasters could be used effectivly with maybe 3-4 of these models then the price would be more understandable, still VERY expensive, but more understandable.

The price, coupled with the stupid FAQ decision is probably enough to make stop 90% of the people that would have bought them originally change their mind.

EDIT: typo's

Extremely ridiculous and outrageous price gouging on GW's part.

Awwww I was hoping for this actually:

I must check and see if these prices are crazy enough to offend the fanbois on warseer.

While some of the sculpts are really very impressive, I'm just scratching my head at other things. In no particular order;


-So, the flocks, which are one of the most insane units in the codex, have one of the most underwhelming sculpts... ever?

-Oh, and the little birds are around $4 each (there are 3 separately cast birds, one being a double bird)? Uh huh.

-The Succubus: so the "pile skulls on it!" fairy visited the workshop that night, eh?

-So... we could but this Succubus model for $15, or a whole box of Wyches for $25... right...

-Same for the beastmasters: 1 for $15, or 5 hellions for $25.

-Note also, that while the succubus model description says that the model is "fully compatible" with the other kits, the BM model does not include this. Does that mean it isn't, or they just didn't think you'd want to know?

--So, a unit of 10 flocks and 5 BMs is... $197.50; $122.50 (flocks), $75 (BMs). Or, put another way, 94 cents a point (210 points in the unit).

Just under a dollar a point, is that a record, anyone?

yeah,

Breotan wrote:Guess I'll still be converting my Succy after all. I really hope the DE get a plastic HQ kit like other armies have.

GW succubus entry wrote:This blister pack contains one Dark Eldar Succubus in five components and a 25mm Round Slotted Base. (This miniature is fully compatible with plastic Dark Eldar kits, enabling you to convert your Succubus with any spare weapons from your Dark Eldar collection.)

So expect she's good fodder for conversions. I'll get one or two for my girls.

TBD wrote:People will probably buy a Hellions box + some leftover agonizers from other plastic kits instead of buying a unit of x times this same metal sculpt...

Agreed, but I'll probabilby get 2 or three of the beastmasters just for their skyboard variation.

RazorWingsFlockz = I iz Disapoint...

Clawed fiend - looks good.. but need more model variations so units / multiple units look good.

Khymera - great models, but I'd want more variations to make good looking units.
While cost is a factor, a more inhibiting factor for me is limiting them to two models.
I hate having multiple copies of a pose within a unit.
Unless they release extra variations of Khymera I'll convert mine.
This is why I havn't considered mandrakes... I don't want to pay for repeats!

Wargs show up cheap on ebay. and Kroot hounds are two for £8.70 and would look great with a new head?
chaos warhounds and dire wolves are both 10 models for £15.50 boxes...


If I convert I'll mix up two or three of these units.
I'd need to source a good replacement head to give the units a united feel.
maybe something in the skaven or lizardmen range.

Panic...

Gorechild wrote:The price, coupled with the stupid FAQ decision is probably enough to make stop 90% of the people that would have bought them originally change their mind.

What stupid FAQ decision would that be?

yeah,
The beasts don't benifit from pain tokens... just the beast masters.

Panic...

I love the looks myself, except the beast master that helmet is bad. I was hoping that the succubus would be something bizzare like lady gaga's meat dress.

That beast master model is ludicrously ugly.

Like most of you, I like the sculpts, but the prices are insane. I dont know how well the beasts will fit (visually) into a DE army.

AlexHolker wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:Finally another DE update, even if it is metal. But whats with all the complaints, has everyone become THAT spoiled, whenever there is a long period of no updates, everyone whines for new models, but when new models are released everybody jumps on the "I hate it bandwagon"

It's not a bandwagon if it's justified. I like the Succubus just fine, but the birds are unintimidating and mundane for what they're supposed to represent, and the Beastmaster unit is brutally expensive for its points.

The birds are meant to be unintimidating and mundane.
They're freakin' birds man, no matter how you spin it. They're only dangerous because they travel in huge flocks.

AlexHolker wrote:

Gorechild wrote:The price, coupled with the stupid FAQ decision is probably enough to make stop 90% of the people that would have bought them originally change their mind.

What stupid FAQ decision would that be?

Panic wrote:The beasts don't benifit from pain tokens... just the beast masters

Panic got it, despite the fact that the rule specifically says that all members of the unit gain the benefit. They could have been a really tough interesting unit, but now they are just shaping up to be an okay, stupidly over priced one.

This is the first time I cant justify the cost of buying warhammer to myself, and I have two units of wraithguard

Anyone else thinking that clawed fiend will end up being seen in many armies as a rato ogre?

NAVARRO wrote:Beastmaster- Dislocated shoulder, hands of diferent sizes, broken wrist dislocated neck and goofy head. Pose loks like hes having a dump.

Succubus- crapachan bicep muscle, sigh... nice model overall.

Clawed fiend- Messy head so messy it spoils the model... pose is ok escept the stupid tipitytoe on the rock Love the torso muscles.

Kymeras... errr many years ago rackham did Dirz tigers a concept very similar to this yet the sculpting was million light years away from this goofy headed things

crows- very usefull and decently done.

For the prices "Nearly £10 a model?" these are NOT in that league of quality sculpting.

Thanks Navarro
Saves me having to type out the same sentiments.
Only thing I would disagree with is that I find the torso muscles overdone on the Clawed feind. Never seen a Clawed feind pumping iron in the gym.

Maybe cos I have never been to a gym.

I really like the Khymeras, the one with the bone...limbs? would make a great stand-in for Kharnarak in a Daemons of Chaos list alongside some Chaos Hounds as Flesh Hounds.

Hounds hounds hounds.

Kanluwen wrote:
The birds are meant to be unintimidating and mundane.
They're freakin' birds man, no matter how you spin it. They're only dangerous because they travel in huge flocks.

It could be argued that more could have been done with them.

ChrisCP wrote:less threatening than a crow & rounder than a seagull....

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:The models are okay, the weakest are the Beastmaster and flock of Seaguls (as Dash pointed out )

*Cries as pride is stung from page 1*

Succubus is amazing model.
Have to say i'm not particularly impressed by the others (their not bad, i just don't like them very much) and the prospect of a £100+ squad isn't very nice....

Edit: So apparently dakka can't endorse the moulding of GW parts. Fair play, removed my post.

The Succubus and Beastmaster are both good, but frankly, I think I can make a nearly as good model with bits from the existing plastics. I like the Khymerae (though am not sure about the lack of skin...) and the Clawed Fiend is nice, if way too pricey. The Razorwings are a big disappointment though. They just look like relatively ordinary birds. And also expensive.

I think I am just going to be using Hellion, Wych, and other parts for the DE, and Cold Ones for the Clawed Fiend, probably Chaos Hounds for Khymerae, and still don't know about Razowings...

In addition to MGS





And the last one's a damn rooster.

The Heresy Miniatures Hellhounds would make excellent Khymeras (they also do 'hellbeasts' that are also suitable)

http://www.heresyminiatures.com/monsters_main.htm

The Snow Troll would also make a good alternative Clawed Fiend. I'm sure there are many mini companies making stirges and other flying D&D nasties that would serve as a cheaper alternative to the birds...

I like the Razorwing, more could have been done with them, sure.

Personally, I love these new models, I think they all look great. I won't use any of them other than the Succubus for my (female) Duke Sliscus conversion, but hey, if I were to use Beastmasters, I'd probably get the one model and use Hellions for the others in the group, but that's just me. That said, I have no interest in using Hellions of any kind.

And to me, the Succubus looks no more manly than Lelith or the Wyches, just throwing that out there.

Wings in flight are always horizontal
The IoB Griffon and all three birdies

A bit more dynamism would be good on future GW wings please.

As for a ton for a squad, it is good news...
for GW.

So... I know I'm just jumping on the bandwagon here and repeating what everybody else is saying, but I gotta say it... these are a huge let down compared to the rest of the Dark Eldar Miniatures released so far.

I mean, I'm a huge fan of the unit's concept (the more weird aliens in 40k the better IMO) and expected better than this.

The clawed fiend, with that huge grin, looks like Stitch from Lilo & Stitch wearing a halloween mask. The original concept art from 3rd edition looked so much better.

The Razorwings are just birds.

The Khymeras are the best of the bunch, but don't do justice to the art in the Codex. I was hoping for somethign less 'muscle and bones' and more 'weird mutant thing'.

The Beastmaster is quite nice, but suffers (like the rest of the models) from not having any variants. It also doesn't differe enough from the Hellions.

The Succubus is ok, but you could make one every bit as good out of the Wyches box set.

In fact, all of these could be BETTER represented by proxies and conversions - for a fraction of the price (which is disgraceful). It would cost hundreds of pounds to make a large unit of Beastmasters and Beasts using these models. I mean, for goodness sake, Beastmasters are the Dark Eldar option for a horde unit. You can take up to 30 models in a single unit, according to the rules, but buying that unit would cost about 300 UK pounds. That's twice as much as I spent on my first 1000 points of Dark Eldar.

Oh well, at least this gives me an opportunity to do some converting. I didn't want to start converting yet in case the second wave models looked better than my conversion ideas.

The Fragile Breath wrote:I like the Razorwing, more could have been done with them, sure, but I think all those birds MeanGreenStompa linked just look silly, and are indeed supposed to look like normal birds.

I'll just point out that 4 of the 5 images I linked have, at one stage or another, actually existed... I actually think the razorwings are a fair sculpt as generic birds but not as vicious alien avians. I imagine they'll be seeing a good number of uses and I might actually get some for my fantasy WoC army... Raven God calls and all that.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

The Fragile Breath wrote:I like the Razorwing, more could have been done with them, sure, but I think all those birds MeanGreenStompa linked just look silly, and are indeed supposed to look like normal birds.

I'll just point out that 4 of the 5 images I linked have, at one stage or another, actually existed... I actually think the razorwings are a fair sculpt as generic birds but not as vicious alien avians. I imagine they'll be seeing a good number of uses and I might actually get some for my fantasy WoC army... Raven God calls and all that.

I know, I didn't mean that as a personal attack, I just think they look more silly than they do menacing.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The birds are meant to be unintimidating and mundane.
They're freakin' birds man, no matter how you spin it. They're only dangerous because they travel in huge flocks.

It could be argued that more could have been done with them.

No doubt about that part.

I'm kind of surprised that they made them in blister pack format rather than a box of 5 each like the Mandrakes and whatnot.

My initial raction was that of disappointment after the first set of excellent sculpts. All of which are plastic iirc.
Given what GW have said themselves about moving more into plastic models, this seems a step baclwards.

Don't follow GW's reasoning in putting this release out in metal at these prices.

A metal bitz-pack for Hellions would have been better suited for the Beastmaster, people are going to need several after all. Why reinvent the wheel? (Or in this case, the hoverboard). The beastmaster having a Khymera skull for a helmet is sort of cool though.

So, Plastic Hellions for Beast Masters, the Clawed Fiend is more or less viable for actual use due to it's low quantity, but how are we going to make units that include Khymera and Razorwing flocks? People seem to have latched on to Chaos Warhounds and Wargs as Khymera subsitutes, but are there any possible GW Razorwing substitutes we could use that won't set me back £180 for three units's worth? (I was aiming for three units of 5 beast masters, 8 Razorwings and 5 Khymera each)

Razorwing Possiblities:

Razorwing Flock: £7.70 per base http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1140047a
Flying Rippers: £5.80 per base http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Warhammer Bats: £4.35 per base http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050056&rootCatGameStyle=
Undead Carrion: £2.90 (Is that right?) per base http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1130116&rootCatGameStyle=

Khymera Possibilities:

Khymera: £8.70 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140015a&rootCatGameStyle=
Kroot Hounds: £4.35 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1060294&rootCatGameStyle=
Ork Boars: £3.10 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440080a&prodId=prod750002a
Forest Goblin Spiders: £1.85 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440079a&prodId=prod840899
Wargs: £1.70 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod770031a&rootCatGameStyle=
Dire Wolves: £1.55 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440103a&prodId=prod1050050
Chaos Warhounds: £1.55 Each http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440031a&prodId=prod1610000

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:My initial raction was that of disappointment after the first set of excellent sculpts. All of which are plastic iirc.
Given what GW have said themselves about moving more into plastic models, this seems a step baclwards.

Don't follow GW's reasoning in putting this release out in metal at these prices.

The only one that makes sense to me is the Succubus, I think it's perfectly sensible that she be metal. The others? Yeah, should have been plastic.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:My initial raction was that of disappointment after the first set of excellent sculpts. All of which are plastic iirc.
Given what GW have said themselves about moving more into plastic models, this seems a step backwards.

They've said that they're wanting to "move more units that are fielded in large numbers into plastic". So things like Raveners, Dragon Princes, etc. Not everything can feasibly be plastic.

Don't follow GW's reasoning in putting this release out in metal at these prices.

GW's reasoning is pretty simple, I'd think.

They don't expect people to really buy that many of these things. Maybe a few people will, but a plastic kit likely wouldn't have made its cost back.

Yes, I can see that would make sense Fragile Breath.

My bad.

Kanluwen wrote: I'm kind of surprised that they made them in blister pack format rather than a box of 5 each like the Mandrakes and whatnot.

That is exactly what I was expecting, maybe a set for Razorwings + Beastmaster and Kymera + Beastmaster and make the Clawed fiend a blister pack. But heaven forbid GW do something sensible.

Hell, more surprising is that they didn't do a boxed set and have it direct only.

they look awesome, but as many pointed out, the cost per model is a bit rediculous

No, sorry, it doesn't make sense. It's a horde unit. given decent sculpts, available at affordable prices, people may well have bought a lot of these. At these prices, no-one is going to bother. You need a lot of them to make a viable unit, and buying a lot of them is not feasible. Ergo, no sales. I very much doubt they'll make their costs back.

Sucks to be a store having to order these deadweights.. I like the sculpts, but I could barely bring myself to buy 10 Ogryn.. and those are at least 400 pts for 250$..

Maybe Kanners. But I was under the impression that the beasts would require larger numbers.
But you are talking near enough 9 quid a pop for a single beastie, £27 for a pack of three? ouch!
Add in another £9 bar 30p for the Beastmaster and for a not very small unit you are already the best part of £36 out of pocket.
ditto for a single flock of 3 budgies (not 4 as shown in the pic sneakily photoshopping out the clear stem )

So yeah I see how they think people won't be buying many of these chaps.

ChrisCP wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:less threatening than a crow & rounder than a seagull....

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:The models are okay, the weakest are the Beastmaster and flock of Seaguls (as Dash pointed out )

*Cries as pride is stung from page 1*

My apologies dear sir, I seemed to miss your much more subtle use of the same humour.


On a side note - I must admit I did get confused over the large unit size comments going around here, before checking the book and sudddenly noticing the list of gribblies are per Beastmaster. Obviously during the flick of Aurelia's codex I'd assumed that was max unit size and thought them a very weak unit.

So did she it seems, or at least she had not made any immediate plans to get any, now she's pondering conversion options. My poor Eldar.

Samus666 wrote:No, sorry, it doesn't make sense. It's a horde unit. given decent sculpts, available at affordable prices, people may well have bought a lot of these. At these prices, no-one is going to bother. You need a lot of them to make a viable unit, and buying a lot of them is not feasible. Ergo, no sales. I very much doubt they'll make their costs back.

You know what else was a "horde unit"?

Grots.

The decision for metal or plastic doesn't seem to simply be "Is this a horde unit? If yes---go directly to plastic!".

It seems to be "Do we expect this to be something that every single Dark Eldar player will take, no matter what army build they're using?" followed by "Well, it may be a slightly large unit size--but if it's going to be a shelfwarmer, put it in metal blisters."

You know, I may laugh at the Clawed Fiend's 'trip nips', but I'd be to busy running in terror if I ever saw that thing in real life.

I think the Beastmaster would look great if I thought he was supposed to be a Homunculus unit... But as a Wych Cult unit, he just doesn't fit the profile... And his torso was sculpted horribly.

I shall call mine Scaramanga.

Again
price them stupidly and they will still be the eternal wallflower, Kanners.
If you are right in your interpretation of Gw's thinking, which seems a fair assessment, they are being overly cautious and regressing from the policy of the first wave release models.

There was no guarantee that they would be successful.
But GW put out excellent sculpts, in a medium most people prefer thses days and they seem to have done well.
This seems to lack confidence. The sculpts are not as good imho, harder to convert and more expensive so they won't sell as well: it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Love or hate the models, but you gotta admit whoever did the paint job on these things did amazing work.

Anyone else see the clawed fiend and think "gundark?"
Don't get me wrong. The resemblance is vague, but that was just the first thought in my head.

Nope sorry Pyronick.

Not a fan of the GW housestyle. Not sure it does any favours to the Beastmaster especially.
The Succubus is succulent and admirable I will have to agree. Some nice painting on the Clawed chap's fur
To be fair the others are okay and show technical skill better than I possess.

Ok, Far better.

*weeps*

Well, this sucks ass.
I think ALL of these models (with exception of the amazingly mundane razorwings) are incredible.
Okay... the Beastmaster is short of incredible... but I like him.
The prices on these things? Pfft! Freaking ridiculous. There's no way I'm paying that. Even if I have a contact that can get them for me at 30% off, it's still too crazy-expensive.

Screw it:


WotC's Abyssal Eviscerators from their Chainmail line will probably be seeing newfound popularity. They will with ME, if I decide to play Clawed Fiends, at least.

I can lean on them for some Khymerae stand-ins, too:













I don't deny that the GW models are better but really, I don't care. I doubt I'd ever want to be playing these things at an official event and... Well, the prices on the official models are just gross.

Eric

NO NO NO!

I don't want to want another army!! I thought I was DE-proof . . .

Someone recently released some really nice beasties recently. but cannot remember who it was.
They had horns on on their heads..
sorry for the brainfreeze

First of I have to say:

I HATE METAL MODELS

It is inconceivable to me that GW would put these out in metal knowing that we would want multiples of these. No matter how good a metal model is you loos the ability to vary from unit to unit. I don't want 2 variations of beasts I want 10 or 15.

Looks like I will be converting these from the outstanding plastic kits in the Dark Eldar range. I will also be looking at the Dark Elves and other now-GW models. Nice job GW you have finally made me look elsewhere.

I actually do not like any of these metal monstrosities compared to the rest of the range. The worst is that Beastmaster. If it really is all metal it is going to fall right off its stand.

The more I get into this hobby the less I like the direction that GW is going. If they want my money fine, give me models from this decade. Metal is dead, at least in miniatures!

Well I guess I have to get that Succubus, the details are slick.

Price aside I think the beast units are overall pretty good. I'll never use them mostly because I don't like the idea of having filthy animals in my army : P

The Beastmaster looks a little burly for a DE but maybe that's just me.

The Khymerae are damn impressive I could belive they're foul warp spawnmade of nightmares (it's the skinned look methinks). The Clawed Fiends are slightly less impressive, but still pretty ferocious.

The Razorwing aren't bad IMO, just not what I expected. I thought they'd be a lot smaller but swarmier, but still look like ravens or what have you. On the plus side because of their "mundaness" they would make good familiars/pets for other characters. Imagine a Psyber Eagle resting on your Chapter Master or Inquisitors forearm.

Prices are over-the-top. I've already converted khymerae from Chaos Hounds and Razorwings from fantasy bat swarms for much, much less. Beastmaster is ridiculous-looking, just continue using spare Hellions instead. Succubus is alright. Too bad you can make them out of the wych box for a lot less...

Overall, disappointed with this semi-pointless offering. Good to see more models, I suppose, but they aren't the ones that most people want (Venoms, Voidraven, Scourges, Wracks, etc.).

All this says to me is that games workshop have thought

''Hmm our new Dark Eldar range has been popular, Lets make the newest models aridiculous price because people will pay it.''

Makes me want too firebomb Warhammer World.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Again
price them stupidly and they will still be the eternal wallflower, Kanners.
If you are right in your interpretation of Gw's thinking, which seems a fair assessment, they are being overly cautious and regressing from the policy of the first wave release models.

Or they're being smart. Blisters are easier, in the end, for them to deal with than boxes.

There was no guarantee that they would be successful.
But GW put out excellent sculpts, in a medium most people prefer these days and they seem to have done well.
This seems to lack confidence. The sculpts are not as good imho, harder to convert and more expensive so they won't sell as well: it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The sculpts are just as good as the Mandrakes and Incubi.

Of course they're going to be "harder to convert", their goal isn't to make it easy for you to make the models using spare bitz from your box. They want people who want to field them to have to buy them.

Is it a self-fulfilling prophecy? To an extent. But if people reaaaaaallly want them, they'll buy them.

And GW will make a decent profit from those people.

Plenty has been said about the sculpts and the price, so I'll just add it's nice to see some new xenomorphs being realised in the 40K universe.

Flashman wrote:it's nice to see some new xenomorphs being realised in the 40K universe.

This is exactly what has me worried. Those things are awesome.

Well, I'm not paying those prices. A five-pack of the newer Heresy Hellhounds are only £3.50 each, and they come with an option for eyeless alien-ish heads, and twice the amount of body poses than GW's offering. If I have to use metal minis, I might as well use metals from a company I respect.

yeah,
warmaster screamers might fit for razorwings?
with a little filing to make the razor wings some green stuff and a different paint job... 3 bases of three for £8.70

Panic...

Kanners

Honestly man they could literally put gakk in a blister and you would defend the policy to the death!

Nice models (the razorwings are just ok), but for the prices it looks like I'll keep using my dire wolves as khymerae.

The succubus I really like, too bad I'll probably never use one...

My only beef really... Is what the heck is that skin flap thinging on the beastmaster above his pants line? It looks like a flap of skin or did the artist paint the cloth skintone on accident?

yeah,
I'm just going to assume by this point you guys will work out why i'm posting alternatives...
no idea how much these cost.


Panic...

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, I'm not paying those prices. A five-pack of the newer Heresy Hellhounds are only £3.50 each, and they come with an option for eyeless alien-ish heads, and twice the amount of body poses than GW's offering. If I have to use metal minis, I might as well use metals from a company I respect.

I agree with you. I bought some Blights from them (http://www.heresyminiatures.com/hv043.htm) to be used a Plaguebearers and they are fantastic. Quick shipping too.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Kanners

Honestly man they could literally put gakk in a blister and you would defend the policy to the death!

And they could be throwing gold bullion into a crowd and people would complain.

Is it a good policy? No. I mentioned that already, pretty sure of that.

But it's GW's policy. It works for them because there are people who will buy the stuff at their prices.

Kan you are correct as far as your argument goes there, but it is incomplete. I don't think anyone is criticizing the price in order to screw GW, but on the contrary criticize it because it cuts their potential audience. Less profit but more sales is a perfectly acceptable strategy as well.

So yes, I think they are insanely pricey for their function in game, would I have bought anyways, no, I'm not a DE player, but I feel they would have been served better by putting out a product that meets demand and is priced right. I don't think anyone, on either side of the debate, would call them cheap or 'affordable' for general game use.

As to the sculpts themselves, I like them alot. I just wish the 2 DE themselves werent so derivative. Beastmaster - Hellion, Succubus - Lilith. They could have given the Succubus a different hairstyle to do something to make her look less like Lilith with more clothes on...

All in all though, sculpt wise, a big win in my eyes!

And they could be throwing gold bullion into a crowd and people would complain.

GW? Throw gold to people?

We'd be too dumbstruck to complain.
Apart from which it would be a Health and Safety issue.

Sorry if you said it wasn't good policy, must have missed it.

I seem to recall saying these are just not up to par with some excellent, recent GW releases in plastic.
I am not damning everything GW. However temping that would be

MegaDave wrote:I'm going to have to purchase both of the Khymerae, as well as the Clawed Fiend, even though I don't play Dark Eldar. I love the idea of someday having painted monsters from all over the 40k universe sitting in a display case , so I hope they keep making more beasties!

I was thinking the same . Maybe some of the kroot beasts too.
As soon as I have painted some of the models that are waiting on my paint desk (and round it) I plan to buy Khymerae and Clawed Fiend.

Really love the succubus and beasts.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, I'm not paying those prices. A five-pack of the newer Heresy Hellhounds are only £3.50 each, and they come with an option for eyeless alien-ish heads, and twice the amount of body poses than GW's offering. If I have to use metal minis, I might as well use metals from a company I respect.

Decent model. Still not as nice as the GW sculpt, but I've already made my feelings known on that.
Thanks for pointing the model out.


Eric

yeah,
It irks me that I'm so against the price of these GW mini's as they are quite good... More counts as from taban minis (prices at maelstrom games)
I think these could all count as khymerae

CHITINOUS HOUND £6


LYCALS £13 for 3


mireling £6


DOMINANT LYCAL £9


with a matchining counts as clawed fiend...
THE BAYAKOYÉ £13


Panic...

Pyronick wrote:My only beef really... Is what the heck is that skin flap thinging on the beastmaster above his pants line? It looks like a flap of skin or did the artist paint the cloth skintone on accident?

A lot of the DE models have flayed skin clothes. That flap of skin is just the roll of his skirt.

It should probably be a bit darker so it doesn't look so close to HIS skin instead of his victim's tanned hide.

yeah,

Oh new photos in the what's new post!


The FLock don't look so bad from this angle.




The Khymerae look hot!



less impressed with this dudes new photos...



Panic...

$288 for ONE unit.

Am I missing something? Are these all really just one model a pop? Please tell me I misread.

These models are amazing, but I don't think I can justify the costs for Beastmaster units, which makes me sad. I'm also a little disappointed by the lack of a Venom model in this release.

To be positive, here are the good points about the pre-orders:

1. If someone wanted a metal figure to use as a base for Lady Malys or one of the other characters, they can use the metal Succubus for that.
2. No more guessing about the base sizes for the beast models.
3. The Khymera look better than the old warp beasts.

I think I'll convert Hellions to be my Beastmasters and use Dire Wolves with 'Gaunt claw arms on the back. Hell of a lot cheaper and will still look nice on the table.

This batch's pricepoint actually has me concerned that they'll do the same thing with the Scourges when they get released. :(

Kanluwen wrote:And they could be throwing gold bullion into a crowd and people would complain.

The truth. I am quoting it. You know, Kan, it would sound like this:

HBMC hypothetically wrote:Those fethers hit me in the neck with fething gold! This is supposed to be marketing?!

Some of these models are amazing. Mork help me, I think my ears are getting pointy and I have the sudden urge to dress in black leather. This is good for no one, least of all my wallet. Yes, the prices are high. To me, it's worth it. I would not pay 20% less for something 70% uglier. To be honest, I would not pay 70% less for something 20% uglier.

Nice looking models, but I am very glad that I am not a Dark Eldar player. I can't afford more pretties at the moment...

Ohhhh myyy goddd *drools*

Succubi is beautiful.... Almost as good as lelith (who is a special character anyway, which deserves to be more detailed). Beastmaster looks pretty good, as do the rest of the beasties. A tad too expensive, but at least they're letting us buying them as singles, rather than giving us a crappy box of all of them.

I think I'll buy the beastmaster, and just convert the beasts from WHFB stuff. Problem solved.

EDIT. Now that I've seen the fiend next to other guys, I'll probably buy one of those too. It's MASSIVE. Definitelty worth the money.

I can't believe some of you guys are not enamored with the Clawed Fiend! That is six kinds of awesome in my book. Feels like there should be some way to use it for skaven, but it's too expensive to be a rat ogre... it would have to work as something. Perhaps a Vermin Lord

Those fethers hit me in the neck with fething gold! This is supposed to be marketing?!

Like I already said, it is a safety issue and the ambulance chasers and law suits and the GW lawyers would be to busy to issue C&D's left right and centre and...
Wait! sadly....
It would never happen. Really, GW throw gold at people? phfff
I know it is a game of fantasy but don't get carried away with such crazy notions.
Also...
We all know that GW don't do marketing
you guys reaslly need to get the facts right!

Seriously there is a lot of, "these are nice but too expensive" comments so far.

If you got hit in the neck with bullion, and kept it could you still sue?
hmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps there ARE four birds after all
makes a big difference. It'll break off too easily and be impossible to pin back on you mark my words!

RiTides wrote:I can't believe some of you guys are not enamored with the Clawed Fiend! That is six kinds of awesome in my book. Feels like there should be some way to use it for skaven, but it's too expensive to be a rat ogre... it would have to work as something. Perhaps a Vermin Lord

I am too! I love how big it is. Any smaller, and I wouldn't like it

I was thinking of using it as a daemon prince of slaanesh

You could use it as a paper weight

RiTides wrote:I can't believe some of you guys are not enamored with the Clawed Fiend! That is six kinds of awesome in my book. Feels like there should be some way to use it for skaven, but it's too expensive to be a rat ogre... it would have to work as something. Perhaps a Vermin Lord

My problem with it is they put it out in metal. That gives you ONE pose. Heck they put out plastic Bloodletters and Deamon princes. Why not a set of at least three of the Clawed Fiends? I just don't get why in the heck they would revert to metal.

Hmmm... looks like I've already got the perfects reps for the beasties...



I've already been thinking about using Dirz alchemists for Grotesques and the otherwhatsits... the big grotesques? Can't remember the name.

In any case, I love these models. Creatures are quite often GW's biggest weakness, but I love these all, even the birds. Although that could be because I need ravens for my Rune Priest and I'm too lazy to sculpt them.

Forgive my ignorance but what is that mini in your avatar, Mastif? Dead sexy.

Will buy a few flocks of Razorwings for use as crows for my Dark Elf army "Murder of Crows". Will look good if painted like blackbluish ravens - and having their wingtips sharpened and painted metal.

Khymeras are so disturbingly weird that I'll buy a few even though I cannot imagine how I will field them.

The Succubus is really nice, definitely got to get me one of those too. Will become a Dark Elf character.

The Beast Master (unispired Hellion) and the Clawed Fiend (Yeti/ape with skull head) are the weakest of the lot. Will pass on them.

As for METAL miniatures: I LOVE 'EM.
More Old School, no "flat detail" on the sides, not prone to tipping like plastic ones - sad if they are only in a few poses but then they make excellent conversion projects (compared to plastics which doesn't provide a similar challange).
To prove my point, here are my converted Mandrakes:

[Mod Edit - PLEASE do not encourage that type of behavior/activity. Thanks!]

I think the clawed fiend and khymerae models are definitely the best of this release. Its a shame the rest are just so disapointing. The Razorwings are small enough to be considered bits, yet costs...too much and the Beastmaster not bad, but not great... its 2011 why is GW still putting metal models on top of flight stands?

Samus_aran115 wrote:
... I love how big it is. Any smaller, and I wouldn't like it

I was thinking of using it as a daemon prince of slaanesh

mrrr...That's what she said?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You could use it as a paper weight

...and again... that's what she said.

Not a fan of the Succubus model; to be honest I just think the model looks pretty masculine, but in fairness perhaps it's the paintjob (Lelith model looked horrible on the GW site, but now I've seen it in person it's really nice). If you can switch the head for another (say a regular Wych head), it might look much nicer.

As for the Beastmaster and his beasts: The Beastmaster himself is pretty disappointing but not terrible by any means, surely they could have made him more distinct? The flock are just what I expected, so I can't comment too much on those, and the Clawed Fiend's pose looks a little static. The Khymerae are probably the best looking model of this bunch, but at this price point making a Beastmaster unit is pretty expensive. (£13+ for the Fiend, £8+ for each smaller beast and a further £8+ for the Beastmaster?)

Thankfully, I didn't plan on using Beastmasters; I eagerly await Razorwing Jetfighters and Scourges though

Neith wrote:Not a fan of the Succubus model; to be honest I just think the model looks pretty masculine, but in fairness perhaps it's the paintjob (Lelith model looked horrible on the GW site, but now I've seen it in person it's really nice). If you can switch the head for another (say a regular Wych head), it might look much nicer.

It all boils down to the androgeny of Eldar. Eldar males are effeminant and females slightly masculine... I really don't think there is a problem with the model, its just distinguishing gender amongst a relativley androgenous race is a matter of subtlety, that can be lost on the artist and player alike.

Killmaimburnkillmaimburn wrote:And now I can't stop laughing at the Clawed fiend's triple nipples, seriously why?

When your young have teeth like that, it pays to have spares?


Not hugely impressed with the Beastmaster, but everything else is brilliant. Love the Khymera, and the Succubus would make an awesome Jain Zar stand-in with a very little work...

I don't like them that much. only the Kyhmara looks Dark Eldary and the Succubus' head looks like one of the males from the Kabalite sprue. I think I'm going to convert Lelith instead.

My impression is that things that are likely to sell in smaller quantities have to be made out of metal due to economies of scale... i.e. not enough sales to recoup the cost of the plastic mold.

If these were a set of 3 plastic clawed fiends, instead, I would certainly make some excuse to include them in my fantasy army... but I don't know if enough people would be looking to use them for the purpose they are for to justify the expense of having them done as a plastic kit.

With these prices, is this the most expensive (real-world money) unit to field?

The Succubus looks horrible. The rest doesn't look to great either, but the Succubus... good god.

The beastmaster actually fits the description of a shaman like figure with a mask that exudes pheromones to help him control his herd of deadly creatures.

I must say I like the subtle idea of the flock of birds. Looks nonthreatening and I think that quality suits the idea behind them.

The kymerae look like the raw product of humanities fears, it can run faster than you, it has teeth that can shred flesh and it hasn't got any skin. Not to mention the eyes...

The clawed fiend was a sad disappointment. It simply does not look mean enough to be a "clawed fiend".

I'm definitely going to pick up a unit of razorwings, they'll fit in perfect with the egypt/desert theme of my army.

The only issue I can find with the models is the price, and I realize that it sounds like a broken record but it's always a factor.

RiTides wrote:I can't believe some of you guys are not enamored with the Clawed Fiend! That is six kinds of awesome in my book. Feels like there should be some way to use it for skaven, but it's too expensive to be a rat ogre... it would have to work as something. Perhaps a Vermin Lord

That clawed fiend looks like a giant mutated gorilla-thing with a bone-plated pihrana for a head.
I LOVE IT.
Seriously, if it wasn't so darned expensive, I'd buy it *just to have it*. Same for the dogs.

Wish they'd done plastic.
I don't understand it. These things are supposed to be fielded in DROVES. Why wouldn't they be in plastic?
I can maybe understand the Clawed Fiend being metal, since you won't have more than 5 per unit. Price is still god-awful, though.


@Mastiff:
Who makes those dogs?


@Kendoka
To be fair, those don't look like conversions. They look like arm swaps. Not quite the same thing.
If I'm missing something, please correct me.

Eric

Those are Tigers of Dirz, from Rackham's Confrontation line when they were still metal. Pain in the ass to get, nowadays.

Oh.
Yeah.
For the cost, then, we might as well be using actual Khymerae models. : )
Thanks for sharing.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Who makes those dogs?

Rackham used to, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dang. I wuz ninjer'd again.

I wonder if the Succubus has separate arms and head like the Archon. If so, I'd love to have one with the closed Wych helmet, just to be different.

I didn't think I'd be getting any of the DE models, but I have to say, those Razorwings make for some pretty tempting Chooser of the Slain Psyber-Ravens.

for those wondering, when GW released the first wave of release for the DE, (warriors, wychs, bikes, archon), the second wave followed on pre order i think it was not even 2 weeks later. so its possible we might get the venom and assorted others in the next few weeks. otherwise, i probally wont be using the beastmaster or his pets, but its nice to know the models are out there if i want to convert them or otherwise work them into my now 8000 point DE army - that also includes a dark eldar titan. (shameless WIP blog promo here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345119.page )

Did this release sort of come out of nowhere, by the way? I wasn't expecting more DE stuff for a while.

Manchu wrote:Did this release sort of come out of nowhere, by the way? I wasn't expecting more DE stuff for a while.

No, it has been confirmed for about 2 months now on different rumours forums. 3rd week of March was the set date since Jan, in December it was said to be at the end of March.
Hope this answers your question.

Yes, thank you. The late March date is what I was referring to.

@Kendoka
To be fair, those don't look like conversions. They look like arm swaps. Not quite the same thing.
If I'm missing something, please correct me.
Eric

Thanks, they were not meant to look converted
Actually the conversion job is very minor - not that hard, but rather delicate.
All faces are replaced, i.e. face swaps (keeping the original hair/ears).

Just to show that only three unique minis could be made to look very different without too much work.

I've seen the wyches. I'm really jonesing pulling put my old guys and revamping the Daughters of Sin, and getting in on that old Wych battle game with the pitfights.

Like those new beasts.

Anyone have the new codex, how does it stack up against others?

Was a little let down when I saw the GW email and didn't see any Venoms. Holding out hope for Venom releases soon as I've put off scratch building some for awhile.

I was a little underwhelmed by all but the razorwings. I'll probably pick some of those up, use helions for my beastmasters, and use other models for the other beasts.

@G6: you may like Ketara's thread -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326407.page

Thanks, that gives some perspective.

ph34r wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, they all look awesome, but I'm not even going to think about making beastmaster units until they come out in plastic. Too expensive.

Don't hold your breath. I would not expect plastic beastmasters in any less than 10 years. Hell, maybe never.

Yeah, kinda like how they never released a kit of plastic bloodcrushers since they already had a metal model that was barely two years old.

I think the Succubus looks pretty good, and I'm not seeing the similarity to Hugo Weaving or transvestites

I dunno, I really don't get it myself. Every time I read these bs complaints about the female models not being "sexy" enough, I keep thinking that this is what they wanted (potentially NSFW and boner-inducing material in spoiler tags, no actual nudity but you were warned regardless):



Except with swords and gak.

I mean don't get me wrong, I find her attractive too. But it's not exactly "realistic", and definitely not what I'd expect a race of gladiator women who thrive on the infliction of pain and death to look like. And I know how you guys are all about the realism, I've seen the stormraven threads, so you guys should love the wyches, too.


BTW, if the mods find this inappropriate I apologize, I literally just grabbed the first thing I saw from a Google image search. I didn't feel it was too bad to post but if I was wrong in that judgment I apologize.

Sid, mods are too busy saving it and oggling at it to delete it mate


Some nice sculpts here, but the lack of poses really kills it for me.

Birds - should be atleast 12 variants, with a random 4 supplied in a pack.

hounds - Look great, but i see far too much conversion here to make them sell at that price (its not too bad)

Fiend - Not keen on the sculpt.
Nice idea, great pose, just a shame it looks so cute and fluffy.


So, if i may, ill just drop some random pics here for those that cant find a substitute model




Fiends (£13.80 each)

gorgers from OK's:
Same price, but alot easier to re-pose, and atleast has a variant head.



Khymera:
Might aswell use chaos hounds or dire wolves, either way, they are £15.50 for 10, rather than £87 for 10.




Birds - Check ebay for small farm animals lol, chances are you can pick up 10 half decent eagles or the likes for 10% of the price.

Well, this is an interesting release isnt it?

Kanluwen wrote:And they could be throwing gold bullion into a crowd and people would complain.

That wasn't really a rebuttal Kan. Chibi's point stands.

Kanluwen wrote:Is it a good policy? No. I mentioned that already, pretty sure of that.

But it's GW's policy. It works for them because there are people who will buy the stuff at their prices.

And that’s not really an argument.

This release should have been a single small box – the Beastmaster, the big beastie thing, the two warp beast thingies and 2-3 bases of the lame birds (they’re nice sculpts but there’s nothing that makes me see them as anything other than terrestrial ravens or crows... they’re dull, and not alien enough). Blisters are not ‘easier to handle’ than boxes. Blisters are the thing GW is attempting to eliminate from the range as much as possible, and this sort of thing would have been better handled in a box. A single box takes up a lot less room than 4 different blisters. And if they’re the small style box (Sternguard, Vanguard, Gretching + Runtheard) then that’s really easy to stock in GW stoers.

And aside from that – one fething flock of seagulls per blister? Even with things like Nurglings you get two bases per blister. It’s crazy, amazingly overpriced and as Chibi says shows a lack of confidence in their own releases.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And they could be throwing gold bullion into a crowd and people would complain.

That wasn't really a rebuttal Kan. Chibi's point stands.

I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

Kanluwen wrote:Is it a good policy? No. I mentioned that already, pretty sure of that.

But it's GW's policy. It works for them because there are people who will buy the stuff at their prices.

And that’s not really an argument.

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

This release should have been a single small box – the Beastmaster, the big beastie thing, the two warp beast thingies and 2-3 bases of the lame birds (they’re nice sculpts but there’s nothing that makes me see them as anything other than terrestrial ravens or crows... they’re dull, and not alien enough).

And then people would still be whining that "I have to buy X boxes to get Y amount of Clawed Fiends! Then I have Z and W Razorwings and Khymerae that I do nothing with!".
Look at the whole missile launchers/Devastator box debacle.

Blisters are not ‘easier to handle’ than boxes.

Says who? Blisters work just fine, especially when their intent will likely be to move them to Direct Only in the fall.

Blisters are the thing GW is attempting to eliminate from the range as much as possible, and this sort of thing would have been better handled in a box.

Partially true. They're trying to eliminate 'overwhelming numbers of blisters'. Characters, however, are acceptable for blister packs.
Guess what most of this release theoretically falls under?

A single box takes up a lot less room than 4 different blisters. And if they’re the small style box (Sternguard, Vanguard, Gretchin + Runtheard) then that’s really easy to stock in GW stores.

Again: you're assuming they'll be a permanent stock item.

What likely will happen: the Succubus and Beastmaster will remain as permanent stock, and the Beasts go to Direct Only. It's not the most elegant solution, or even an intelligent one...but this is GW.

And aside from that – one fething flock of seagulls per blister? Even with things like Nurglings you get two bases per blister. It’s crazy, amazingly overpriced and as Chibi says shows a lack of confidence in their own releases.

How does it show a "lack of confidence in their own releases"? You'd think overcharging like hell for something that people would be taking in large numbers actually shows the opposite problem; i.e. overconfidence.

I'll probably get one of each just for collecting. But if in the future I decide to used beastmasters, I'll use a box of hellions and probably wargs or chaos warhounds in rounded bases. I would definitely use Dark Elf cold ones if they hadn't saddles sculpted on the body.

Hey Manchu: my avatar is also a Rackham mini. It's a Dirz Alchemist clone conversion from the War Staff box. I'm waiting to see what GW puts out for their Wracks, and may use these instead. I have about 40 of the metal beggars. They'd work well since they have exposed spines and plugs and cables, and some even have, well, things growing out of them.

As far as the dogs go, they have plastic versions that can be bought for cheap. It was part of the whole pre-painted plastic WTF***ery Rackham produced. Most stores will be grateful to move 'em off the shelves I would expect. Actually, they have plastic clones as well.

Plastic:

Manchu wrote:Did this release sort of come out of nowhere, by the way? I wasn't expecting more DE stuff for a while.

I posted this rumour from Warseer 30th December:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/336097.page
And Jes confirmed 90% of the units getting a model until June.

Yeah these are nice models but are way to expensive they should have made them plastic.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The birds are meant to be unintimidating and mundane.
They're freakin' birds man, no matter how you spin it. They're only dangerous because they travel in huge flocks.

It could be argued that more could have been done with them.

Looking at some of these birds a lot can be done with the colors to make that creepy scary looking kind of bird, GW have sort have gone with ahh DARK eldar, ahh comoragh is DARK lets paint them DARK and grey, give em some red rings around the eyes like the bottom bird and try and fit some fleshy parts in on the face then they might look a lil scarier than a flock of seagulls, although I have a friend who's mum is scared to death of ALL birds


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Manchu wrote:Did this release sort of come out of nowhere, by the way? I wasn't expecting more DE stuff for a while.

I posted this rumour from Warseer 30th December:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/336097.page
And Jes confirmed 90% of the units getting a model until June.

Maybe there pushing them out a bit quicker for there upcoming GK and TK releases?

Wheres my ruddy scourges, venom, talos and Bombers?!

Not good enough.

Nice tho.

Commander Endova wrote:I didn't think I'd be getting any of the DE models, but I have to say, those Razorwings make for some pretty tempting Chooser of the Slain Psyber-Ravens.

You're not the only one thinking this. I plan on picking some up for my Wolf army.

Damnit.

The teaser e-mail said Unleash the Beasts so me being the jaded Beastmen player that I am, got all excited for beastmen wave 2...

Decent stuff I guess. Not too excited, personally, as I'm not a DE player.

Although, I may use the fiend as unit filler for my gors, and use the khymeara to pull a chariot or something. Or buy two, chop a head off one and make it that two headed beast that the special character Moonclaw rides.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The Heresy Miniatures Hellhounds would make excellent Khymeras (they also do 'hellbeasts' that are also suitable)

http://www.heresyminiatures.com/monsters_main.htm

The Snow Troll would also make a good alternative Clawed Fiend. I'm sure there are many mini companies making stirges and other flying D&D nasties that would serve as a cheaper alternative to the birds...

I've never seen this site before. Good stuff.

Best product description ever:

THIS IS AN EXPERT KIT. SERIOUSLY. DO NOT BUY THIS MODEL IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUT A MULTIPART KIT TOGETHER. IT NEEDS PINNING, FILLING AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

Kanluwen wrote:Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

I... wasn't...

Kanluwen wrote:And then people would still be whining that "I have to buy X boxes to get Y amount of Clawed Fiends! Then I have Z and W Razorwings and Khymerae that I do nothing with!".

You're right. In which case I amend what I said - a boxed release, and then Direct Only blisters for people who want more.

Kanluwen wrote:Look at the whole missile launchers/Devastator box debacle.

Pfft! That wasn't a 'debarcle'. That was one guy bitching because the Dev Box doesn't cater to Space Wolf players.

Kanluwen wrote:Says who?

I have nothing to back that up. But then again, you had nothing to back up 'blisters are easier'. See what happens when you make attempted unfounded unsupported unilateral statements of 'fact'? You do it all the time, so I thought you would have recognised such a thing.

Kanluwen wrote:Blisters work just fine, especially when their intent will likely be to move them to Direct Only in the fall.

But there's no reason to if it's a box.

Kanluwen wrote:Partially true. They're trying to eliminate 'overwhelming numbers of blisters'. Characters, however, are acceptable for blister packs.

Except this is a unit, in four separate blisters. That's not efficient.

Kanluwen wrote:Again: you're assuming they'll be a permanent stock item.

Nonsense. Putting them in blisters means they go Direct Only. Putting them in a box would stop them (or should stop them, I'm sure there are exceptions) from being "Direct Only'd" (to turn that phrase into a verb for a moment).

Kanluwen wrote:How does it show a "lack of confidence in their own releases"? You'd think overcharging like hell for something that people would be taking in large numbers actually shows the opposite problem; i.e. overconfidence.

So you do think it's overcharging?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:I've never seen this site before. Good stuff.

Best product description ever:

The guys at Heresy are great. Fun models, good service, and, as you've seen, fun descriptions of their models.

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

...

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

That's not what that phrase even means. Putting words into one's mouth means lying about or misrepresenting what's being said. What HBMC is doing is questioning your motives while reproducing your questionable statements verbatim, a completely different animal.

And if you're not trying to rebut other posters or defend GW, what the hell are you doing? You're consistently disagreeing with everyone and taking a pro-GW stance at every turn, consistently claiming their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates. Maybe you should consider migrating to Warseer, where your insulting and predictable sentiments would, I have no doubt, establish you into a position of awe and envy among the spineless cretins that still inhabit that festering pit of maggots.

That might just be your best post ever Aggy.

There's another set of models that could work for those khymera...

http://privateerpress.com/files/products/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/raek.png

Although frankly I think those are my favorite sculpts out of the set; I think they're all excellent in their own fashion... and even the slight mistakes on the modeling I can easily overlook...

What on Earth is GW thinking?


I was planning on getting a Beast Master unit.
I was thinking about getting 5 Beast Masters, 10 Khymeras and 6 Razorwing Flocks.

5 (identical) Beast Masters $75
10 Khymeras $140
6 Razorwing Flocks $73,5

$288,5!!!

On the other hand I can get myself;

1 box of Hellions $24,75
1 box of Vampire Counts Dire Wolves $24,75
2 blisters of Vampire Counts Bat Swarms $30
(as an alternative I can buy 3 blisters of Vampire Counts Fell Bats $51,75)

$79,5 ($101,25)

I don't care if they were sculpted in gold, and included a BJ and a salmon sandwich.....I am not paying three times as much.

The most scary thing is that I haven't even left GWs website in order to find cheaper alternatives.

Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

Making the Beastmaster and his monsters metal makes sense, as there are 2-3 other Fast Attack options in plastic, so nobody will probably want more than 1 Beastmaster with more than one beast option. And Jetbikes and Hellions are a strong alternative, making a plastic Beastmaster not economic enough. Be happy that you don't have to buy the beasts that you don't need/like in a forced bundle.

I agree. The metal option makes sense for this type of model. Still should'a been in a box of Master/Big Gorilla thing/2 Muscle Dog things/3 Flock'a Seagulls.

The Succubus looks really cool, I'll probably use the parts for the rest of my army. Loving the halberd, it'll look awesome on an archon.

Kroothawk wrote:Making the Beastmaster and his monsters metal makes sense, as there are 2-3 other Fast Attack options in plastic, so nobody will probably want more than 1 Beastmaster with more than one beast option. And Jetbikes and Hellions are a strong alternative, making a plastic Beastmaster not economic enough. Be happy that you don't have to buy the beasts that you don't need/like in a forced bundle.

I actually agree with this now that I've thought about it. I only want the razorwing flocks to tie up eldar units in my regular oppositions army. Having to buy a whole box of things I will never use would be a real negative point. I'm still happy that games workshop are fleshing out the new codex and their visions are great! Seeing these new additions makes me curious if they will release models for the archon's court.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I agree. The metal option makes sense for this type of model. Still should'a been in a box of Master/Big Gorilla thing/2 Muscle Dog things/3 Flock'a Seagulls.

That would have created much more nerdrage, esp. from those people wanting the Beastmaster and non-GW Beasts. Everyone not wanting all monsters will save a lot of money without a box.

It'd be nice to think that GW's strategy here is to only produce like 100 of each of the beast minis, so as to drive sales of all the alternate options that they sell from Warhammer Fantasy etc., thus increasing their sales ("Hey, Razorwing flocks at only £4/base rather than £10/base? BARGAIN" -- even if it's not) and making people feel good about sneakily cheating GW *and* being good Hobbyists.

It seems more likely, though, that they are a kind of blundering behemoth-like giant corporate entity, and didn't really analyze the codex to find out its strengths and weaknesses ("Razorwing flocks/Tervigons are gonna be good -- people are going to want lots of those -- let's make 'em a plastic kit in the first wave"), and don't have the agility to alter strategy at any speed faster than "several years for a slight tweak" ("Everyone loves Razorwings! Can we change that kit to a plastic one with 5 bases in?" "No can do; we have the release already planned out and the ad copy already written").

I mean -- they're nice minis, for sure. But my budget for overpriced single-mini-per-blister metal miniatures is tied up with buying Hive Guard for the forseeable future, till I have 9. I can't see me ever buying the 5 Razorwings I'd need for one Beastmaster, let alone the 10 or 15 for two or three.

Kroothawk wrote:That would have created much more nerdrage, esp. from those people wanting the Beastmaster and non-GW Beasts. Everyone not wanting all monsters will save a lot of money without a box.

The Kan ... [mod edit] is right that complaining would have happened regardless of how it was packaged. At least in a box form it wouldn't be as absurdly expensive to get the beasties. I mean c'mon Kroot - 1 Flock of Seagulls per blister? That's highway fething robbery.

Maybe this is all a cunning plan on GW's part to shift loads of boxes of Direwolves/Chaos Hounds/LotR Wargs etc?

All its cost them is a couple of cheap rubber moulds and they shift a crapton of plasticrack...

Kroothawk wrote:Making the Beastmaster and his monsters metal makes sense, as there are 2-3 other Fast Attack options in plastic, so nobody will probably want more than 1 Beastmaster with more than one beast option. And Jetbikes and Hellions are a strong alternative, making a plastic Beastmaster not economic enough. Be happy that you don't have to buy the beasts that you don't need/like in a forced bundle.

This is a good observation, however the pricing of the models kinda make it moot. Two Razorwing Flock will cost you more than a box of, say, Bloodletters. They could have just as easily released them in plastic 5 to a box for the same price. Khymerae too, which can be priced much cheaper in plastic given that it costs 30 CAD to get just 2 of them, whereas you can get 5 Chaos Knights for less (and making them in boxes of 5 makes sense too). The Clawed Fiend is really the only one that deserves to be a metal model.

I'll be curious to see folks' reactions (including my own) when we actually see a big Beastmaster unit on the table using these models. My particular Beastmaster build is nearly $300 USD.

I'd love to do it, but I can't even justify the price of this unit.

Originally I was not expecting to see these models released at all because of the reasons that have come out. They're too obscure for plastics, and the unit composition makes them extremely expensive as metals. Now I'm curious whether the Archon's Court will follow the same path.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Originally I was not expecting to see these models released at all because of the reasons that have come out. They're too obscure for plastics, and the unit composition makes them extremely expensive as metals. Now I'm curious whether the Archon's Court will follow the same path.

I think we'd have seen the Archon's Court by now if we were going to see it.

Unless they're saving them to release alongside the Haemonculi line-up, but that doesn't really make much "thematic" sense--which is what they seem to be aiming for.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I agree. The metal option makes sense for this type of model. Still should'a been in a box of Master/Big Gorilla thing/2 Muscle Dog things/3 Flock'a Seagulls.

I thought you needed a beastmaster for each type of beast. If GW had done what you suggested here, I daresay you would be the first to cry foul.

Did they fire the guy that did the first wave of dark elder? Because these minis look like gak!

WTF happened?

Manchu wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I agree. The metal option makes sense for this type of model. Still should'a been in a box of Master/Big Gorilla thing/2 Muscle Dog things/3 Flock'a Seagulls.

I thought you needed a beastmaster for each type of beast. If GW had done what you suggested here, I daresay you would be the first to cry foul.

Yeah, a unit is 1-5 beast masters and each master may take 1 clawed fiend, 1-2 razorwing flocks or 1-5 Kymera I believe. Also, only 1 beastmaster per unit may take an agoniser, so you cant make a full legal unit with these models.

kronk wrote:Did they fire the guy that did the first wave of dark elder? Because these minis look like gak!

WTF happened?

Thats a bit harsh.

Gorechild wrote: Thats a bit harsh.

Wave 1 Dark Eldar was outstanding. I was tempted to start a DE army, even though I already have 2 armies in progress.

These new sculpts are horrible.

Hm, I have resisted the temptation up until now. The new sculpts are really pushing me to investigate DE.

kronk wrote:

Gorechild wrote: Thats a bit harsh.

Wave 1 Dark Eldar was outstanding. I was tempted to start a DE army, even though I already have 2 armies in progress.

These new sculpts are horrible.

Yeah the 1st wave were beautiful, I bought 1500 points of them ( and I have 3 other armies on the go ), I wouldn't say any of the new ones are horrible though. The kymera are really good sculpts, as are the fiends (except the tripple nipple's). The flocks arent bad sculpts, they are well sculpted and the detail is great, they are just a little unexciting. Agreed that the Beastmasters chest looks a little ham fisted, but its still not horrible, just not the same awesome standard of things like some of the 1st wave.

Steelmage99 wrote:What on Earth is GW thinking?

I don't care if they were sculpted in gold, and included a BJ and a salmon sandwich.....I am not paying three times as much.

You my friend are a comic scholar. I cracked up!

Steelmage99 wrote:I don't care if they were sculpted in gold, and included a BJ and a salmon sandwich.....I am not paying three times as much.

If you don't want it, then... Can I have the sandwich?

@Marrak

Thanks for posting that link. I think these are probably my favorite proxies posted yet.

I like those plastic Dirz tigers, too, though.


Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JOHIRA wrote:Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

IMO, not a fair comparison.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

Eric

We can agree on the wave 1 sculpts, Gorechild. For wave 2, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Right?

Poke!

kronk wrote:We can agree on the wave 1 sculpts, Gorechild. For wave 2, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Right?

I didn't say the beasts are beautiful, just that they aren't horrible, horrible is a bit of a strong word imo

Gorechild wrote:

kronk wrote:We can agree on the wave 1 sculpts, Gorechild. For wave 2, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Right?

I didn't say the beasts are beautiful, just that they aren't horrible, horrible is a bit of a strong word imo

But compared to the fantastic wave one sculpts its like finding out your girl is really a crack ho. She looked good at first but as time went on, well so did her looks.

Uh, hardly. Those sculpts are pretty far from ugly. They fit in very well with the great looking first wave.

Yeah, I don't get all this hatred, I think these are amazing, and can't wait for the next wave.

Here's to hoping for a Lady Malys model that's as awesome and BA as the Succubus and Lelith.

The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.

Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

You might wanna do a size check
The troll is quite a bit bigger.
So its price would be more.

I say to hell with GW on this one, im going to find some small plastic care bears to use instead.

do it

beast master = haemonculus conversion IMO

Okay guys, let's be real. The sculpts are pretty damned nice. You might not like the Vespid motif of the beastmaster critters, and that's certainly okay to gripe about, but calling the sculpts ugly is just trolling. It's the price, not the sculpting that's going to drive people away from this release.

Breotan wrote:Okay guys, let's be real. The sculpts are pretty damned nice. You might not like the Vespid motif of the beastmaster critters, and that's certainly okay to gripe about, but calling the sculpts ugly is just trolling. It's the price, not the sculpting that's going to drive people away from this release.

Spoken like a gentlemen, sir. Spot on.

Yes they are good models, no quarrel there (at least from me). However, the models being metal and the pricing have turned me away. I will find something plastic and convert. Shame though, I do like the khymrae.

I'm seeing the same response people give the nercon pariahs with these releases. Surely GW could box them up a little cheaper than this...

Good models though, but being good doesn't necessarily mean people will get them.

The sculpts are fine, aside from the Beastmaster which is pretty poor, IMO. The prices are ridiculous and I expect GW will see very poor sales for this wave. I hope that it doesn't diminish or delay future DE releases, though. Venom, Razorwing/Voidraven, Scourges, Wracks, Haemonculi, and Talos/Chronos will all do better than any of this.

Manchu wrote:

The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.

Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.

This bit made my day, mind if I sig it?

It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions. Doesnt appear to be that much different in the codex (the robed legs are a nice touch, but If a simple headswap can give me cheaper Beastmasters I'd gladly take them).

As for the beasts themselves, I still say they should have released the Khymera and Razorwings as plastics. If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

You might wanna do a size check
The troll is quite a bit bigger.
So its price would be more.

I say to hell with GW on this one, im going to find some small plastic care bears to use instead.

I noticed.
That's not the point, though. The point (I thought) was to find LESS expensive alternatives.

You had me at Care Bears. You had me at Care Bears... ; )

Eric

cheapest alternative I can see are rat ogres, especially second hand ones from IoB. Give it a random bestial head from another set and you should be ok. Works especially well if you have the HPA as that has a few extra stuff that would be great for the tail and other potiential conversion parts.

MagickalMemories wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

IMO, not a fair comparison.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

Eric

But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine. I don't want to build an army of DE beasts. I want models that look good. I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion (although the more I see it the more it looks like it's in mid-stumble), it doesn't have any sense of malice or danger, which is something that every DE model should have by default. It's exquisite fur detailing on a dull and pedestrian pose. To me, that is unacceptable on a "Porsche of miniatures", as GW likes to call their product. The Dire Troll was not posted as an alternative to help you guys build an army, it is to show just how poor of an imitation the clawed fiend is.

(That, and I was hoping someone would crack a joke about GW sending PP a C&D. Perhaps back in time. Oh, sorry, I mean "Perhaps BiT.")

I misuinderstood your intent for posting the links, then.
Thanks for clarifying.

Eric

Rat ogres would work as mentioned.
Plenty of random beast like heads about, and they are small enough that making a GS mould of them would be quick and easy.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean c'mon Kroot - 1 Flock of Seagulls per blister? That's highway fething robbery.

If you are on budget, distribute the Seagulls of one blister onto (3-) 4 bases.


Of course there are dozens of non-GW alternatives like bats, stirges, winged rippers or plastic doves from a 5$ farm set from Toys-R-Us .

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

...

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

That's not what that phrase even means. Putting words into one's mouth means lying about or misrepresenting what's being said. What HBMC is doing is questioning your motives while reproducing your questionable statements verbatim, a completely different animal.

And if you're not trying to rebut other posters or defend GW, what the hell are you doing? You're consistently disagreeing with everyone and taking a pro-GW stance at every turn, consistently claiming their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates. Maybe you should consider migrating to Warseer, where your insulting and predictable sentiments would, I have no doubt, establish you into a position of awe and envy among the spineless cretins that still inhabit that festering pit of maggots.

Very good Agamemnon2. Harsh, but entirely accurate.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not trying to rebut or defend. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

...

Again: Quit trying to put words into my mouth.

That's not what that phrase even means. Putting words into one's mouth means lying about or misrepresenting what's being said. What HBMC is doing is questioning your motives while reproducing your questionable statements verbatim, a completely different animal.

It's either "quit trying to put words into my mouth" or "quit trying to consistently pin underlying motives that are not actually present in my statement".

And for the record? It works just fine when the other person is effectively "putting words in my mouth", reading more into the statement than was intended.

And if you're not trying to rebut other posters or defend GW, what the hell are you doing? You're consistently disagreeing with everyone and taking a pro-GW stance at every turn, consistently claiming their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates.

No, I don't "claim that their customers are a despicable bunch of slowed ingrates".
I do, however, believe that the customers who actively post on forums outside of Whineseer are hatemongering gits who wouldn't be happy even if GW was giving things away.

They're not the same thing, not even remotely.

Maybe you should consider migrating to Warseer, where your insulting and predictable sentiments would, I have no doubt, establish you into a position of awe and envy among the spineless cretins that still inhabit that festering pit of maggots.

Clearly, because that's why I post on Dakka. Because I want awe and envy from the heaving masses who can't even go five minutes without flinging vitriol in every direction.

I have a trainline outside my apartment. If there were a train wreck right now I'd probably strain my neck as I looked back and forth between the train wreck of this thread and the other train wreck outside my window!

Necroagogo wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Ah. I forgot for a sec I was dealing with GW =P

Also, is it just me or does every thread Kanluwen post in inevitably turns into a long trail of pointless arguing?

That succubus looks like a transvestite. The second wave of DE is a huge failure in comparison to the initial releases!

JOHIRA wrote: I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion

It doesn't have a sense of motion? It's leaping forward with it's weight on one arm, one leg up in the air and the other arm trailing behind it. The creature is modeled as if in mid run! Do you... do you understand what motion is? It's okay not to like the model, but claiming that it appears to be motionless is just ridiculous.

yeah,
hahaha I make jake fething right.
that thing could not be doing any more running!

Panic...

Also, while the prices per model are pretty ridiculous for such a potentially large unit, the actual model prices for at least the Clawed Fiend and the Kymera aren't that much of a departure for GW.

Kroxigors are $22.50 each. Stone Trolls, Ushabati and Yhetee are $22.25. $22.50 for the Clawed Fiend, which seems to be as big as any of these and better sculpted than most, seems like the standard price.

Centigor, Rough Riders and Questing Knights are $12.25. Carrion are $15.00 Hive Guard and Venomthropes are $20. $14 for the Kymera, which seem to be pretty large, seems like the standard price.

The Beast Master's price is fairly ludicrous considering that you can get a box of Hellions for $10 more, and the Razorwings do seem a overpriced for what they are, but the rest seem fairly priced for models of their size.

So really, it's not that these new models are too expensive for the kind of model they are. They actually seem to be fairly priced for the size of the model and quality of the sculpt (by GW standards anyway).

People have pointed out that making huge beast units is now completely unfordable. This is totally true. I don't feel like there was any expectation that this would be a plastic kit though, so I'm not seeing how this was really unexpected.

Also, I don't see how this makes Beastmaster units unplayable. Certainly we don't have to use full sized units. Is no one considering making smaller beast units? It seems like you could still make effective units without costing an arm and a leg. I'm looking forward to running a Clawed Fiend and a few Razorwings as a unit in small games.

A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Who would want to use three of the Beast Masters though? I know I'll be using Hellions, and I suspect even people who buy the Beast Master will only get one. So... 5 Khymera is $70. That's pretty spendy, but not so bad if you're willing to pay for nice looking models.

So, $70 for the Khymera, $15 for the Hellions and whatever you want to pay for 4 birds (because I agree that the Razor wings are a rip-off and a poor model). Very likely less than $100 for the squad. Expensive? Hell yes, but not $274. And not outside of what one might be willing to pay for a squad of really nice looking miniatures.

My plan is 2 Clawed Fiends and 4 Razorwings. Not sure what I'll use for the actual Razorwings, but I doubt I'll pay more than $5/base. So my total cost is likely about $85. Not so bad.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It makes me wonder why they couldnt have just included the beastmaster as an alternate model for the Hellions ... If they had done Beastmasters as an alternate to the Hellions, Razorwings could just be attached to the sprues like Tyranid Rippers.

Caution! Common sense outbreak detected!

Ah. I forgot for a sec I was dealing with GW =P

Also, is it just me or does every thread Kanluwen post in inevitably turns into a long trail of pointless arguing?

It is not just you.

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Also, where were you getting $274?

khymera $14 x 5= $70

Razorwings $12.25 x 4= $50

Beast Masters $15 x 3= $45

Total: $165

Stupidly expensive, yes. But I still think the Khymera are worth their cost model wise. The Beast Masters and Razorwings really aren't, in my opinion.

Also, where were you getting $274?

Um, the person who came up with $274 is in Australia. This is an international forum, you need to look at the origin of the person posting for context. Total $165 is in US dollars. Not everyone using $ is in the US.

The point is, in whatever unit of currency you get your money it's an expensive unit of models based on the number of models you get for the money.

jake wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.

It's also $274...


Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Who would want to use three of the Beast Masters though? I know I'll be using Hellions, and I suspect even people who buy the Beast Master will only get one. So... 5 Khymera is $70. That's pretty spendy, but not so bad if you're willing to pay for nice looking models.

So, $70 for the Khymera, $15 for the Hellions and whatever you want to pay for 4 birds (because I agree that the Razor wings are a rip-off and a poor model). Very likely less than $100 for the squad. Expensive? Hell yes, but not $274. And not outside of what one might be willing to pay for a squad of really nice looking miniatures.

My plan is 2 Clawed Fiends and 4 Razorwings. Not sure what I'll use for the actual Razorwings, but I doubt I'll pay more than $5/base. So my total cost is likely about $85. Not so bad.

...Obviously the cost can be mitigated by kit-bashing, but that is beside the point of, as a DE player I would like to use the actual models, not something that 'looks appropriate' and might be questioned when I start playing strangers again. Some people might by sympathetic, but when one's not using a model that's currently in production in a tournament enviroment, so,mething could always go wrong and wind up wasting time and possibly the money one save to.

jake wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:A small unit eg. 3BM, 5Khym, 4Flocks is 156pts.
It's also $274...
Also them Khymera are 7!! piece models =P

Also, where were you getting $274?
khymera $14 x 5= $70
Razorwings $12.25 x 4= $50
Beast Masters $15 x 3= $45
Total: $165
Stupidly expensive, yes. But I still think the Khymera are worth their cost model wise. The Beast Masters and Razorwings really aren't, in my opinion.

Welcome to Australia~!
Btw atm $165US=$162.99516 Australian dollars, our dollar is stronger than yours too :(
& 274 Australian dollars = 277.1784 U.S. dollars :*(

$18 for the pack of 4

I missed that you were in Australia.

My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

JOHIRA wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:Holy Gak, it's muscle-bound behemoth ready to beat me into a fine mist!

Oh how cute, someone gave the gorilla a Halloween mask and some beer. Now it's struggling to stand up on two legs.

IMO, not a fair comparison.

We're all sitting around b!tching about the price of the masked gorilla mutant, and you post something that's more than twice as expensive .
Something cheaper and better would, by far, be a better post (and one I'd LOVE to see).

Eric

But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine. I don't want to build an army of DE beasts. I want models that look good. I don't think the fiend looks good. It doesn't have any sense of motion (although the more I see it the more it looks like it's in mid-stumble), it doesn't have any sense of malice or danger, which is something that every DE model should have by default. It's exquisite fur detailing on a dull and pedestrian pose. To me, that is unacceptable on a "Porsche of miniatures", as GW likes to call their product. The Dire Troll was not posted as an alternative to help you guys build an army, it is to show just how poor of an imitation the clawed fiend is.

(That, and I was hoping someone would crack a joke about GW sending PP a C&D. Perhaps back in time. Oh, sorry, I mean "Perhaps BiT.")

Eh, I'm not seeing a lack of motion there. The angle hiding the left leg doesn't help and the face could be more expressive but otherwise I think it's a great model.
If I ever put my Circle army together (and depending on the actual size of the fiend) I'd use him instead of PPs Gorax model in a second (faint praise I know, I'd use a wad of gum over the Gorax model).

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

Jake, I think you have a valid point. However, since these models are unlikely to be purchased much in small quantities for the sheer joy of collecting or painting, they're not really those kind of models, the cost of building a unit has seemingly overwhelmed people's reason circuits and they are now lashing out in ways both reasonable and not. It's no surprise here is it? It doesn't take much to set some people off as you may have noticed.

As for me I have to admit, if I was updating my Dark Eldar army at the moment, this would be the last unit I'd think about because of the total cost of the unit and the time and effort it takes to assemble large units of metal models. After more than 20 years as a GW customer, I still buy a surprising number of models, but I tend to gravitate toward plastic these days. It's more time and cost effective, holds paint better and is easier to transport.

If the Feind is a large model the point is valid. What is it, about £14? still on the steep side but comparable to some. Not sure the same can't be said for the kittycats. Nearly 9 quid a pop? They look fairly standard size, nothing special. Who knows.

So many people have said they have been put off by the cost. I still can't help wondering if GW had put these out cheaper and in plastic they may have sold much better.
They could have been done in such a manner that, as mentioned on this thread, conversions were possible for WHFB etc, thus widening the scope for sales.

jake wrote:Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

IMO, Jake -and I'm certain I'm not alone in this- I think the problem with your logic is that you're simply comparing them to similarly priced/sized GW models. That's all well and good, but you should take into consideration that we *also* think those models are overpriced. So, really, instead of stating that they're not bad because they cost the same as GW's XYZ model is an invalid point. Instead, what you're really saying is that they're no more expensive than that XYZ model... which we also think is overpriced.
KWIM?

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

jake wrote:Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

IMO, Jake -and I'm certain I'm not alone in this- I think the problem with your logic is that you're simply comparing them to similarly priced/sized GW models. That's all well and good, but you should take into consideration that we *also* think those models are overpriced. So, really, instead of stating that they're not bad because they cost the same as GW's XYZ model is an invalid point. Instead, what you're really saying is that they're no more expensive than that XYZ model... which we also think is overpriced.
KWIM?

Eric

Overpriced? Sure. as I said, they're of comparable price to similarly sized models already available. For a GW product that might seem reasonable. For anything else it's stupidly expensive. What were you expecting though? Surely not that the Beast Master units would be in plastic. That was never even rumored. Surely not that as metal models they would somehow cost less than other comparable metal models?

Maybe you (and by you I mean... well, you know) were hoping that the models would be small? Scabbard or Ripper sized? Maybe the size of Gaunts? 3 or 4 for $20? That would have been affordable, but I'd personally rather have large, detailed cool looking models. The old warp beasts weren't too expensive, but they were pretty small and unimpressive.

Seriously, when you were assembling your ideal Beast Master unit in your mind, how much did you think it would cost? It was always going to be an expensive unit. gak, even in plastic it would have been expensive. So why is everyone so surprised?

The problem with your argument is you are using the wrong reaction

We knew that GW would be a bunch of stiffs with a price to match and they didn't disappoint.
No surprise, just the inevitable let down
You say they are large. Just how long is a piece of string?
The whole thing is subjective, you think they are cool, and sound remarkably like how they are going to be described in WD btw, I think they are anything but cool sculpts on the whole.

They ought not have been so expensive even in plastic.

Try disappointment, ennui, GW apologist fatigue, or do I look like I was born yesterday? pull the other one it has bells on as the reaction rather than surprised.

Jake these things are playing footsie with (and in the case of the Khymera, exceeding) the 1$ per point mark. That's not "Duh, it's GW so you should feel obligated to pay alot" expensive, that's "Holy Crap I'm going to convert this or just not field the unit at all" expensive. There are entire armies that suffer from this, the end result is never a net positive for anyone.

And to top it off these aren't really excellent models - the Beastmasters should have just had an an upgrade sprue in the Hellion box, the Clawed Fiend is your standard awkwardly-posed big thing, the Khyms are GW ugly/wierd chaos skin is showing/creepy dog/dire wolf thing # 12059 (seriously you could make an army of GW's weird-ass canines) and the Razorwings are...birds. Birds.

They are just birds.



Pictured above: Fearsome Dark Eldar Razorwing. He rends on a 6, this makes him good against targets with low armor saves, like Space Marines.

Oh my bad it's just a random bird I found on Google. It's really easy to get the two confused.

Kanluwen wrote:It's either "quit trying to put words into my mouth" or "quit trying to consistently pin underlying motives that are not actually present in my statement".

Only one of those is factually correct. If you sacrifice truth in favor of producing a snappier comeback, you've already lost.

As for the rest of your post, it's drivel. Good night.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The problem with your argument is you are using the wrong reaction

We knew that GW would be a bunch of stiffs with a price to match and they didn't disappoint.
No surprise, just the inevitable let down
You say they are large. Just how long is a piece of string?
The whole thing is subjective, you think they are cool, and sound remarkably like how they are going to be described in WD btw, I think they are anything but cool sculpts on the whole.

They ought not have been so expensive even in plastic.

Try disappointment, ennui, GW apologist fatigue, or do I look like I was born yesterday? pull the other one it has bells on as the reaction rather than surprised.

Okay, so not surprised but complaining anyway? That's just childish.

How long is a piece of string? Seriously man, we have photos. We know exactly how large they are in comparison to other miniatures in the line.

This is sounding more and more like complaining for the sake of complaining. Like the models or not, they are fairly priced by GW standards (and here I'm talking only about the Fiend and Khymera). We knew the models were going to be in metal. We knew how large the units could be. as you said yourself, this wasn't a surprise. So all the complaining about the models really is just more complaining. That's how it seems to me.

Those of you who have decided to use proxies... good idea. Smart move! Those of you who have decided that the unit is too expensive to field... good job on saving some money! Those of you who like the models and decided they will be worth purchasing... I hope you'll enjoy them!

Those of you complaining that GW is once again abusing your wallets, your patromage and ruining your gaming experience by offering you miniatures at expected prices... seriously, wtf?

lol
No he isn't
Isn't he an American Blue Robin?
what a stunner
Most sensible gorgeous post on Dakka well done Mike.

jake wrote:Maybe you (and by you I mean... well, you know) were hoping that the models would be small?

Actually, yes. The statline on the Khymera is pretty close to that of a Kroothound (WS4/S4/T3), so it's not unreasonable to assume they'd be about the same size. And remember this is already a model considered prohibitively expensive for its points cost. Double the points cost and double the price of the miniature, and you're back where you started.

GW is charging commander prices for a miniature that comes in squads of up to 25, yet only has two sculpts. That's just ridiculous.

So now we can't say anything against GW if we don't like their wares or marketing policy because it is childish?

That is a well reasoned and articulate reposte.

Mike's Crystal Ball Prediction of 2011: The newfound popularity of the plastic Instamold stuff everyone is talking about in the other thread combined with a relatively small, simple metal model that is fabulously expensive and taken in large numbers leads to more resin/greenstuff Razorwing flocks than metal ones being fielded on tabletops in the next 6 months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:lol
No he isn't
Isn't he an American Blue Robin?
what a stunner
Most sensible gorgeous post on Dakka well done Mike.

It's pretty cute, and for the cost of a full Beastmaster/Razorwing unit I could just buy a bunch of them from a pet store and set them loose in the face of my opponent for every match I play for the next 12 months and probably break even.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:So now we can't say anything against GW if we don't like their wares or marketing policy because it is childish?

That is a well reasoned and articulate reposte.

Complaining for the sake of complaining is childish.

While the dollar cost to points ratio of the unit is certainly worth complaining about (and by complaining about it we discuss and explore the problem) the cost of GW miniatures has been well covered on this and other forums over and over again. Complaining that the Clawed Fiend and the Khymere as models are not worth their cost (which is what I'm arguing about here, and is what many people in this thread and the sister thread over at Warseer have said) is ridiculous. GW has set their cost standard for models of this size. The prices shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone. Yes they are expensive, but not outside of what is to be expected for GW models. GW models are expensive, but these three models (the 2 Khymera and the Fiend) are well within expected cost for models of their size.

Complaining that as a model the Khymera and Fiend are too expensive is both fruitless and pointless. The cost of GW models has already been discussed here and other places multiple times. I think we've come to a general agreement that they are damn expensive, that we'd rather they were cheaper, and that because of this sometimes we won't buy them. Complaining in this thread that the models themselves are too expensive accomplishes nothing. It does not further the discussion. it does not shed new light on the discussion. It does not allow us to explore the problem in new ways. It is simply complaining for the sake of complaining. Which is childish.

It's trying to put too fine of a point on things when you say people can discuss it's cost vs. it's points but not it's cost vs...the cost of other things someone could buy by default. These things aren't being judged by how much pewter and square inches they take up on a tabletop, they're generally being judged by how much more expensive they make a Dark Eldar army (or collection) to field them. If the same exact model was 50 dollars, cost 1400 points, and had stats commensurate with the points value, people would be falling over each other to pay for it (though to be fair it's not really that good looking, so people would still probably convert it, but you get the point). It currently costs too much to add too little so people are justifiably concerned.

GW's (atrocious) production schedule means for most gamers they usually only have one good chance to make that unit out of the codex everything it's customers have dreamed of (and would be happy to pay for) and when they blow it, it makes people understandably upset.

jake wrote:I missed that you were in Australia.

My point though is that the Khymera and Clawed Fiend are fairly priced models (for GW models). Obviously we can use other stuff to fill their spots if we want to, but if we want the actual models there's not much point in complaining about their cost, which is very comparable to similar sized metal models.

Or to put it another way, I'm mystified by the outrage over the cost of the models. Not the cost of assembling a unit. I get that. But the cost of the models themselves. So many people in this thread and the sister thread on Warseer are claiming that GW are way overcharging for the Clawed Fiend and the Khymera. They're not. The cost of these models is, as I pointed out before, comparable to other metal models of similar size. Yes, using the models to assemble a unit, especially a large one, is stupidly expensive. But the Khymera and Clawed Fiend models themselves are not overpriced rip offs as many people are claiming.

It's the cost of the unit, for a collector, who wan's one of each model, sure not that bad. For a player, it's a unit which could have been boxed, I'd pay $70 for a BM and 5 Khym, I'd pay 50+ for a BM and Clawed, I'd buy a BM and two flocks for $40. A realistic unit at this rate would cost $220 still, which would be somthing like 85 GBP (less GW Australias' 60% mark-up) or $140usd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jake wrote:
Seriously, when you were assembling your ideal Beast Master unit in your mind, how much did you think it would cost? It was always going to be an expensive unit. gak, even in plastic it would have been expensive. So why is everyone so surprised?

Yes because it would have a fair few models, but not more expensive than a 1000pts army from the same race~!