40132
Post by: ArbeitsSchu
mikhaila wrote:Loki_TBC wrote:insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
And you would be 100% wrong.
Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(
Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.
Clearly he isn't 100% wrong then. It is obviously not illegal in the US to sell products with a lead content. By your own quote, it is simply illegal to sell TOYS with lead content. If one company can avoid that by making them for "Collectors" then any company willing to lose the "Child" market could turn back over to lead-content and buy cheaper metal.
Of course if idiots didn't eat the damn things, this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place, but what is done is done.
16689
Post by: notprop
I'm pretty sure it can in with a whole raft of legilation in the UK that also resulted in Lead free petrol (Gas) and other things.
I would be suprised if one case in NY resulted in such a drastic change in GW. (not saying it isn't true though)
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
I'm hoping this will be a good chance to at least keep metal details... if by any chance this will go the Rackham route it could be the turning point for me.
16698
Post by: andrewm9
Kroothawk wrote:Yeah, who needs Tyranid Hive Guard?
Or Eldar ... anything? 
They will get used to it. Sisters players have since their entire line is metal except for 1 1/2 tanks.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Some minor updates:
Harry wrote:But if it helps ... metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton.(...)
For once I hope I am completely wrong and end up looking stupid for believing this.
But it is not just me saying this. I did not start this rumour and too many people (who are better informed than I am) have chimed in left right and center for me not to believe that this is happening.
(...)
Obviously this will be announced in a couple of months and even then after they stop metal production I imagine stuff will be available for a few more months whilst they shift remaining stocks. But what you don't get from GW (or wherever you get it from) in the next few months you will be left scrabbling around the interwebz trying to find it....and you will find it just like you can still pick up a copy of SpaceHulk. There will be pockets of metal all over the place for a while. You may even pick up some stuff cheap as indy retailers try to shift stocks. But some stuff will be hard to find. Especially recent metal ... as there will not be so much of that about.
I am sorry I have no words of comfort.
Archibald_TK wrote:At the beginning of the week we received an info from our GW national HQ that we shall not worry and the disappearing models will be once again available to independent retailers in the future in a "different format". As I said back there it means nothing and everything at the same time.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
mikhaila wrote:Loki_TBC wrote:insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
And you would be 100% wrong.
Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(
Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.
Do you mean that GW could get around the ban by labelling their models something like "Collector's item, not a toy" ?
958
Post by: mikhaila
Kilkrazy wrote:mikhaila wrote:Loki_TBC wrote:insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
And you would be 100% wrong.
Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(
Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.
Do you mean that GW could get around the ban by labelling their models something like "Collector's item, not a toy" ?
At the time, no. It hit pretty much everyone. From what I heard, the law passed was aimed squarely at metal miniatures, and was made to hurt by it's 'retroactive to today' wording. In any case, it sparked the entire change to lead free models. At the time, I had friends at GW, Ral Partha, Heartbreaker Hobbies, and Grenadier. All started the change over after the NY law hit. The dialog at the time was quite lively. It wasn't possible to sell lead free to some states and non lead to others, because of how distribution was set up.
Now, I think the problem is that no one wants to go back to using lead, as it's a bomb ticking away that could cripple their business. Reaper has experimented with it, but that's about it. "Lead" is just a bad word now, in many parts of the US.
99
Post by: insaniak
If nothing else, moving back to lead would be nothing more than a stop-gap. Sooner or later, everything will move to some sort of plastic...
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
notprop wrote:I'm pretty sure it can in with a whole raft of legilation in the UK that also resulted in Lead free petrol (Gas) and other things.
I would be suprised if one case in NY resulted in such a drastic change in GW. (not saying it isn't true though)
You can find some nice background here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=201028 saying that it all started with a messy divorce and the wife claiming the kids were poisoned by chewing on Dad's metal miniatures  :
BlackWidowPilot wrote:Well, for what it's worth to everyone, back in the Jurassic Era when this all took place I used to have a mail order retail business -Federation Armory- selling you guessed it, miniatures that contained *lead.*(...)
The plot thickened further afterwards when one of my regular customers – Mr. Dave Hornung- contacted me (or I him – 'twas looong ago now) and gave me a firsthand account of his actual testimony during the court hearing in which GAMA sought a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) against the specific NY state government agency that had issued the lead miniatures ban. According to Dave, he gave testimony as a *hobbyist,* even though he was a lead abatement expert employed by the state of New York (!!!).
Dave schooled me on the actual know risks of lead miniatures (ie., nil), and dirty NY politics (messy, as one might expect of *any* politically motivated ban ordered by an double-salaried environmental protection "czar" under fire for his double salary and close political relationship with then NY Governor Mario Cuomo…), and a reportedly messy NY divorce (soon to be ex-wife allegedly accused soon to be ex-husband of making their children ill from letting the kids play with dad's painted lead miniatures) that said NY environmental czar caught wind of and jumped on as a pretty transparent IMHO cynical attempt to deflect the heat over his big at-the-public-expense paycheck.
According to Dave the two lawyers representing the State of NY hadn't even prepared a case brief – guess they and their boss thought they had a really soft target, and were visibly shocked by all of the people who turned up to defend the industry and our hobby, including a legal team hired by GAMA, Dave, and other witnesses who could string a coherent sentence together and make a rational case for following real science and not politically-motivated pseudo-scientific grandstanding…
According to Dave, the two attorneys for the State of NY were badly rattled by the courtroom beat-down they received on the first day's hearing, so much so that their lack of preparation visibly wore the patience of the presiding judge very thin indeed…
On day two of the hearing the judge granted the request for a TRO, putting an end to the ban until further notice. Sadly, the damage had already been done, as one or more major distributors who decided discretion was the better part of valor, unilaterally declared that they would cease carrying lead-based miniatures. The ripple effect in the industry was considerable, but that's another story.
Leland R. Erickson
Grayhawk Studios
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
mikhaila wrote:At the time, no. It hit pretty much everyone. From what I heard, the law passed was aimed squarely at metal miniatures, and was made to hurt by it's 'retroactive to today' wording. In any case, it sparked the entire change to lead free models. At the time, I had friends at GW, Ral Partha, Heartbreaker Hobbies, and Grenadier. All started the change over after the NY law hit. The dialog at the time was quite lively. It wasn't possible to sell lead free to some states and non lead to others, because of how distribution was set up.
Now, I think the problem is that no one wants to go back to using lead, as it's a bomb ticking away that could cripple their business. Reaper has experimented with it, but that's about it. "Lead" is just a bad word now, in many parts of the US.
Rackham's minis contained lead right up until they changed over to the plastic ones. I don't know if they were available in the US or even if they were subject to some packaging modification. In the UK their packaging warning was similar to the GW one but included the additional phrase 'contains lead'.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
So do we have any idea when this switch is happening? When we'll start to see the first resin figures?
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Mid to late May, if the rumours are correct.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?
How about stripping and scrubbing? are resins durable enough compared to metal?
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
LunaHound wrote:Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?
How about stripping and scrubbing? are resins durable enough compared to metal?
1. LOL. No.
2. No, resin is a little more fragile. Should be slightly easier to file/clean than metal models at least.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Sidstyler wrote:. No, resin is a little more fragile. Should be slightly easier to file/clean than metal models at least.
... once you get used to the hazard suit, that is
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Resin just requires Simple Green to be cleaned, same as plastic or metal. 
12186
Post by: Sersi
Heck, working with resin isn't that hard. You just need to have the right tools, is all.
First, get a set of Rio Rondo "carbide scrapers" you would even need to create any dust 99% of the time. You can also use a single edge razor to make clean "guillotine" style cuts when taking parts off the sprue. It causes less stress when shearing parts away, so they don't break or shatter. For cleaning a soak them in simple green and lightly scrub them with a soft toothbrush. Done.
Oh, and you can get those Rio Rondo scrapers here: http://www.riorondo.com/
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
LunaHound wrote:Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?
l
Have you ever seen a 28mm resin cheaper then 28mm metal in our little miniature industry? You should espect a price rise.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Resin usually costs more because the casting is more of a handwork job than metal. You can't prepare large batches of resin because it will start to cure before you can fill all your moulds.
The rate of defects is higher, and miscasts can't be recycled. Bad metal is just melted and re-used.
Resin uses some nasty chemicals and requires good safety methods.
The moulds for resin don't last as long.
I assume that GW have improved on some of these aspects in order to increase productivity.
Also, I expect they will be casting on demand. You will order a model. It will be cast in a day or two and sent directly to your house or nearest GW shop.
This will eliminate the problem they currently have of tons of expensive metal sitting in their supply chain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am moving this thread to Discussions.
We have got completely off the original News (my fault as much as anyone's) do it is now more of an ongoing discussion thead.
9594
Post by: RiTides
I still crave more details Kroothawk / others in the know. If you find them can you post them somewhere easier to find than in the midst of this massive thread 
36277
Post by: The Decapitator
I was quite intrigued to see on the UK GW website that the Space Marine Chaplain in Terminator Armour was priced at £8.20. Not only this but it said that the expected shipping date was between 3 to 4 weeks! It made me wonder whether either A) The price was wrong. B) The price had been lowered to clear surplus stock in expectation of a possible switch in casting materials. C) The materials have already changed and were somehow cheaper to produce the model. Or D) An apology on behalf of GW that there was going to be a substantial delay for the model for various reasons so the price reduced to compensate for this. Not sure if anyone can confirm this or not but I'm pretty sure that this particular model was priced higher than £8.20 up until recently, as it's a sizeable figure and in line with other similar sized models priced around the £10-£12.00 Mark.
Also with regards to the delay in GW dispatching the model, I'm inclined to now believe that this is due to a casting material change. I have been hesitant to believe that GW will be swapping from White metal to a Resin/Resin-Plastic Hybrid, but upon seeing this on the website, I'm struggling to think of any reason why such a popular and well designed minature would be subject to such a prolonged delay from time of order to delivery. Even older models which have been direct order only for a long time and which don't sell in very big numbers don't seem to be subject to this time frame. So it leaves me wondering whether this 'materials change' will come about a lot sooner than we think, especially for the more popular metal minis, and that we shall start seeing the new models produced in a new material within the next couple of weeks.
Of course I could be completely wrong, and maybe GW have had a problem with this particular mini, but judging by this thread and others I'm inclined to think otherwise. I myself don't have a problem with resin as such, but due to it's potential hazards for new users and younger hobbyists I'd be surprised if it was the same resin to which we are all used to. Here's hoping that it will be a new type of resin/hybrid which will provide better strength, be less brittle and not suffer from any potential carcinogenic effects should the dust be inhaled.
If not, then I think this may cause some serious issues for GW and I really hope that this fear isn't realised. I really do hope that this worry is just that, a worry, and that this potential changeover could be the start of something good.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
I haven't got the time to look through all 11 pages, so, forgive me if this has been asked.
What will happen to exiting collectors ranges and slow selling metals?
Do we think that these will stay as metal pieces i.e. Rough Riders Space Marine through the ages, Mordians etc or will they eventually go the way of the Dodo? - No point in keeping metal around if everything else is resin based?
99
Post by: insaniak
I would expect that the 'collectors' range will just disappear as stocks run down.
Unless the resin process that GW are adopting uses the same moulds, I can't see it being worth their while in most cases to spend the time making new moulds for out of date figures.
15579
Post by: Fearspect
Umm... who's Harry?
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
There are similar models still available in metal for £8.20.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1570031
however that does not disprove your point.
If materials are changing, GW have to stop production of the metal versions. They can either sell through the remaining packaged stock or recall and melt down the models for scrap. The decision would be based on the most cost-effective method.
I am sure no-one would complain if GW reduced prices to reflect cheaper materials. Their policy for years, though, has been to steadily increase prices faster than inflation regardless of materials costs.
They probably would decide to change that if they had good cause to believe that prices had reached a level to turn customers away. There has been evidence for several years of falling unit sales, so perhaps this is not fantasy.
Logic dictates that toy soldiers will not have the price inflexibility of an item like insulin.
20494
Post by: Lunchb0x
I hope they dont discontinue Necromunda or Mordheim figures!!! Nor my 2nd ed IG !!!
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
insaniak wrote:I would expect that the 'collectors' range will just disappear as stocks run down.
Unless the resin process that GW are adopting uses the same moulds, I can't see it being worth their while in most cases to spend the time making new moulds for out of date figures.
I think this is a very real possibility. There's no reason they can't maintain metal casting for the purposes of doing the older collectors range, but I don't think they will see it that way and I'm quite concerned that the remnants of Specialist Games won't survive this.
34242
Post by: -Loki-
I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
-Loki- wrote:I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.
I think it's been the suspicion for a while that the current supplies of SG stuff are old stock, they may not see the worth in casting more. They'll run down the current stock and discontinue them.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
I imagine the sales of specialist games, associated figures, and collector's figures (Necromunda, etc.) are minute compared to the sales of SM.
GW's last effort to market any of the specialist games was when they sacked the Blood Bowl living rulebook committee and shut down all the fan web sites a couple of Christmases ago.
It's hardly a ringing endorsement.
34906
Post by: Pacific
Howard A Treesong wrote:-Loki- wrote:I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.
I think it's been the suspicion for a while that the current supplies of SG stuff are old stock, they may not see the worth in casting more. They'll run down the current stock and discontinue them.
That's an absolutely awful shame if it happens. I wonder if they will continue to supply the rules online?
40132
Post by: ArbeitsSchu
Kilkrazy wrote:I imagine the sales of specialist games, associated figures, and collector's figures (Necromunda, etc.) are minute compared to the sales of SM.
GW's last effort to market any of the specialist games was when they sacked the Blood Bowl living rulebook committee and shut down all the fan web sites a couple of Christmases ago.
It's hardly a ringing endorsement.
Ah, the joy of knowing that a company that was once a labour of love created by people who genuinely cared about their hobby has become a corporate entity which actively despises the very people who purchase its goods.
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Pacific wrote:That's an absolutely awful shame if it happens. I wonder if they will continue to supply the rules online?
Given that they exist as a means to promote and sell the miniatures one could speculate upon that...
My guess is that they'll be available in GW's new 'round filing cabinet'. You'll probably want to downland them while you can.
Is the Witch Hunters codex still on their site? Because you can make a pretty spanky counts as Sisters of Battle force using the new Grey Knights codex.
8742
Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Perhaps they could license the IP out for BFG, BB and so on? Let a smaller firm or FFG take it on?
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Blood Bowl has already been licensed to FFG for their BB card game.
If people want more Blood Bowl figures, there is a nice range for Elf Ball from Impact Miniatures.
5245
Post by: Buzzsaw
-Loki- wrote:I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.
My understanding of resin casting is far from perfect, but I was of the presumption that metal and resin casting equipment are not interchangeable. I could, of course, be wrong, and would be delighted to be enlightened.
99
Post by: insaniak
Resin casting generally does use a different process.
One of the rumours circulating about this move of GW's through is that the resin they're changing to can be used with spin-casting moulds. It's one of the aspects of this that makes it all a little more believable... without some way of injection moulding or spin casting, resin production just wouldn't seem particularly viable on the sort of scale that GW would require.
I dont know if it's actually been mentioned whether that means the same machinery (and so the same moulds) as they're currently using, though.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
The processes are different in several respects and it is hard to see one machine working for both.
However companies often dispose of old tooling and invest in new tooling and GW can do it too.
40132
Post by: ArbeitsSchu
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Perhaps they could license the IP out for BFG, BB and so on? Let a smaller firm or FFG take it on?
Are we talking about the same GW here? The one that is so militantly against anyone else playing with its toys that it takes people to court and claims it invented the chevron? The company that hates its customers so much that it would gladly not have any if it could get away with it? Snowflakes chance in hell that they would licenese something out, no matter how sensible a move that would be.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Pacific wrote:That's an absolutely awful shame if it happens. I wonder if they will continue to supply the rules online?
When the miniatures are gone, why would they?
38067
Post by: spaceelf
Many people have mentioned that the move to resin will be the end of GW's specialist games. I do not think that this will be the case. I suspect they still sell a decent amount of specialist stuff. They even decided to reproduce Space Hulk a few years back. This shows that GW thinks there is a market in these games. The last thing that GW wants to do is switch to resin, which will surely ruffle some gamers feathers, and then on top of that cancel the specialist games. The amount of GW hate at that point would be off the scale.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
spaceelf wrote:Many people have mentioned that the move to resin will be the end of GW's specialist games. I do not think that this will be the case. I suspect they still sell a decent amount of specialist stuff. They even decided to reproduce Space Hulk a few years back. This shows that GW thinks there is a market in these games. The last thing that GW wants to do is switch to resin, which will surely ruffle some gamers feathers, and then on top of that cancel the specialist games. The amount of GW hate at that point would be off the scale.
In courtroom parlance, that statement "assumes facts not in evidence, m'lord". You're making the assumption GW cares what handful of rabble-rousers think of its politics.
5394
Post by: reds8n
spaceelf wrote:Many people have mentioned that the move to resin will be the end of GW's specialist games. I do not think that this will be the case. I suspect they still sell a decent amount of specialist stuff.
Not these days to the best of my knowledge.
They even decided to reproduce Space Hulk a few years back. This shows that GW thinks there is a market in these games.
One would suggest it actually shows there's profit to be made in pulling them and then releasing a short term once it's gone it is gone revamped box set of your old games.
958
Post by: mikhaila
spaceelf wrote:Many people have mentioned that the move to resin will be the end of GW's specialist games. I do not think that this will be the case. I suspect they still sell a decent amount of specialist stuff. They even decided to reproduce Space Hulk a few years back. This shows that GW thinks there is a market in these games. The last thing that GW wants to do is switch to resin, which will surely ruffle some gamers feathers, and then on top of that cancel the specialist games. The amount of GW hate at that point would be off the scale.
Very, very little sales of the models. The move to resin obviously won't be all at once, and unless the spin casting process allows them to still use existing molds, (which it might, from what I've read), you won't see much in the way of SG models moved to resin. Not enough sales to justify cost.
Although, games being re-released, like Spacehulk, are probably something we'll see.
38451
Post by: Guildsman
I can't believe that anyone thinks that the specialist games will survive this transition. In the five or so years that I've known about GW, there have been zero specialist game news. The company, like all big companies, is all about profit, and specialist game sales account for a tiny part of that. If they can't use the old molds, then forget it. Even if they can, they may not bother casting any more anyway.
Not trying to be a troll, really. Just trying to be realistic. It's a shame, because some of the stuff is really cool, but I can't imagine that the specialist ranges will survive this transition.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
I agree.
The number of newbies who buy specialist games must be tiny. Presumably veterans have by now bought what they want or aren't interested.
There is zero ambition within GW for promoting old or new SG titles. They have been left to wither on the vine for several years.
8922
Post by: ironicsilence
Kilkrazy wrote:I agree.
The number of newbies who buy specialist games must be tiny. Presumably veterans have by now bought what they want or aren't interested.
There is zero ambition within GW for promoting old or new SG titles. They have been left to wither on the vine for several years.
Yep, I cant imagine those games are generating sales, I'd suspect GW still sells them because they still have stock in the items. Not sure if GW (or if its even possible) has an sort of process to melt down old models to reuse the materials
32545
Post by: Element206
I would like to see that. I have never worked with resin so it would be a first
6515
Post by: Starfarer
Kilkrazy wrote:
There is zero ambition within GW for promoting old or new SG titles. They have been left to wither on the vine for several years.
Well there was this blog post a month ago: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=15900022a
Now, the cynic in me could say they simply posted that to try an encourage people to buy up remaining stock before they switch to resin. The optimistic side of me hopes if there is a switch all the remaining stock no one is buying will still be there just like it has been for years. And taking it one step further I'd hope the success of Space Hulk will encourage them to do re-releases like that every few years(or every year if I had it my way.)
37694
Post by: Radical_Edward
Unfortunately I have to buy all of my specialist games stuff of of eBay anyway. GW seems to have stopped selling most of the Mordheim range, especially the hired swords I'd be after... Elf Ranger, Dwarf Trollslayer, Halfling Scout. Dramatis Personae like Aenur, Bertha, and Veskit as well. A lot of these models were great alternatives to put into your WHFB armies.
I managed to get a few marienburgers a while back, but their stock is limited and they had to cancel a couple of my marienburgers even though they claimed to have them in stock... (they didn't even update the website after they cancelled the order.)
Necromunda and Blood Bowl on a whole seem a bit more supported in the minis range (hell, they even supposedly still sell the BB box set) but the lack of interest in Mordheim is a shame. The GW blog did a post a while back about specialist games and didn't even include a picture of Mordheim, just a small mention. ( http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=15900022a )
Space Hulk's re-release was a bit different from the other SG series in the fact that it seemed much less expandable than the other basic games. It also integrates hugely into one of GW's flagship games. I can't say the same for Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Gothic, Aeronautica, Manowar... Following this line of logic, though, Warhammer Quest would probably be a great idea for them, and Mordheim may have a fighting chance as well.
I doubt it though. Maybe if they actually properly promoted Specialist Games they'd have a chance, but as far as I see it small-scale games don't integrate with the whole 'invest at least $500 on an army' business strategy.
I'd hate to see Epic 40k in resin anyway, I severely doubt the pieces would be resilient or detailed. I hope GW doesn't get rid of specialist games, but I feel they will. I'll still keep playing my old games and ebaying the minis or using WHFB ones 
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
BTW we will see the first (new) resins in July: Several Wizards for the new Fantasy magic supplement. More details in the corresponding thread.
38067
Post by: spaceelf
Around where I live, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Necromunda, and BGF still see the light of day. Also BFG and EPIC had very good showings at Games Day two years back. This of course does not mean that people are buying models, or that these games are played in other locals.
Over the past few years GW has put a little effort into the SGs. The things that spring to mind are the resculpt of Mighty Zug, and the Gorka Morka rules. Also certain items which were previously not listed on the site, like BFG Cobras, were reproduced and put back up.
The SGs are some of GWs best systems. It would be a shame to see them go out of print entirely. I suppose they could keep producing the plastic SG models, but for most of the systems there are not enough models to keep the game alive.
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Post by: Lunchb0x
Kroothawk wrote:BTW we will see the first (new) resins in July: Several Wizards for the new Fantasy magic supplement. More details in the corresponding thread.
Coming from some one that worked/works in the production side of resin/injection molding/pewter, is a cost saver. But not a cost saver for products already being made, largely due to the fact they will need to make new molds after X production runs. Where as the models that are out now, all have been paid for, so there is no reason to make the old stuff over again in resin. The re-tool for that just doesn't make sense.As for the new products, yes it would make sense, lower costs to get production pieces made and after X amount of runs of the mold, just make a new one off the master.
What corresponding thread are you talking about? link?
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Post by: Kroothawk
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/360231.page
And the retooling makes sense for many, as the metagame needs those miniatures and a resculpt would cost more.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Found this on the painting dragon forum..
I received from GW last week the following letter:
Important notice about changes to our Product Range
4th April 2011
As you will have noticed over the last few weeks we have been going through a range review which has seen multiple codes being removed from our main range (in Retail and on the Trade order pads).
Don’t be concerned- This is all part of a plan.
• Every year we review our range and assign products to Retail/Trade, or to Direct (or remove them entirely) depending on their sales performance.
• This year we are moving many codes that do not sell well to Direct.
• Products being removed from Retail/Trade are currently being run down, and are now ‘available while stocks last’.
• We will be re-launching some of these codes in a new format and we will let you know about this in due course.
• This will leave us with a Retail and Trade range that contains our most popular and fastest selling products.
All this will take place over the upcoming weeks, until then it’s business as usual!
Paul Dobson
Head of Sales
Emerging Markets and Capital Cities
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Paul Dobson, Head of Sales wrote:• We will be re-launching some of these codes in a new format and we will let you know about this in due course.
That certainly sounds like resin is a strong possibility.
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Post by: Balance
Kilkrazy wrote:Paul Dobson, Head of Sales wrote:• We will be re-launching some of these codes in a new format and we will let you know about this in due course.
That certainly sounds like resin is a strong possibility.
Although 'format change' in this context could also mean "repackaging" or similar. Maybe move to less blisters, more boxes, and do "Heroes of X" boxes that have a bunch of the special characters, etc. for an army sold together in a box at one low (not really) price point.
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Post by: d-usa
ironicsilence wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I agree.
The number of newbies who buy specialist games must be tiny. Presumably veterans have by now bought what they want or aren't interested.
There is zero ambition within GW for promoting old or new SG titles. They have been left to wither on the vine for several years.
Yep, I cant imagine those games are generating sales, I'd suspect GW still sells them because they still have stock in the items. Not sure if GW (or if its even possible) has an sort of process to melt down old models to reuse the materials
I played some Necromunda this year as a new player. I didn't buy SG models, but I did buy a couple of boxes of IG and Fantasy Empire Flagellants to make some fanatics. You can keep on using the SG rules with regular models. They drove me to spend some extra cash, even without buying actual SG models.
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Post by: spaceelf
d-usa wrote:
I played some Necromunda this year as a new player. I didn't buy SG models, but I did buy a couple of boxes of IG and Fantasy Empire Flagellants to make some fanatics. You can keep on using the SG rules with regular models. They drove me to spend some extra cash, even without buying actual SG models.
Unfortunately Epic, BFG, Warmaster, and Battle of Five Armies are not 28mm scale games. You could scale them up and use different models, but it is just not the same using a steam tank as a lunar class cruiser.
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Post by: Lunchb0x
Kroothawk wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/360231.page
And the retooling makes sense for many, as the metagame needs those miniatures and a resculpt would cost more.
Where does it state that the new models will be made of resin?
On a side note I spoke to GW and GW corporate and both stated that they are not switching to resin, and this type of rumour happens every year as they go and make room for "floor" space for retail/ gw stores for the new products and the other products are just moved to direct. Its a standard procedure to world over, since floor space is a premium , and you want to push the newest product more so then the products you have already paid for all the tool and die for.
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Post by: lostlegiongames&comics
Lunchb0x wrote:
Where does it state that the new models will be made of resin?
On a side note I spoke to GW and GW corporate and both stated that they are not switching to resin, and this type of rumour happens every year as they go and make room for "floor" space for retail/gw stores for the new products and the other products are just moved to direct. Its a standard procedure to world over, since floor space is a premium , and you want to push the newest product more so then the products you have already paid for all the tool and die for.
Indeed! As with every rumor of doom and gloom, the return of the Squat Demiurg army, and now pewter curdling to resin, I call bull$#!+ until I see a press release or model release proving otherwise.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Lunchb0x wrote:Where does it state that the new models will be made of resin?
On a side note I spoke to GW and GW corporate and both stated that they are not switching to resin, and this type of rumour happens every year as they go and make room for "floor" space for retail/gw stores for the new products and the other products are just moved to direct. Its a standard procedure to world over, since floor space is a premium , and you want to push the newest product more so then the products you have already paid for all the tool and die for.
Keep in mind that you're quoting something from the same group of people who denied that Space Hulk was being re-released!
Eric
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Post by: VoidAngel
I really hope this rumor is false. I hate resin, and will be loathe to work with it. I'd need to buy a vacuum system for my workshop and wear a mask just to deflash a model. Hatred.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Lunchb0x wrote:On a side note I spoke to GW and GW corporate and both stated that they are not switching to resin, and this type of rumour happens every year as they go and make room for "floor" space for retail/gw stores for the new products and the other products are just moved to direct.
Suggest a bet over 50$ that GW will release resin miniatures until end of the year then
Praxiss wrote:Apparently GW has stopped shipping metal blisters out to even their own stores now and something "amazing" (quoting the manager from my local GW here) will be announced in May.
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Post by: valiantjared
my FLGS said that it looks like GW will stop shipping blisters to FLGSs and only do GW stores and the online store to try to increase their profit margin
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Post by: mikhaila
valiantjared wrote:my FLGS said that it looks like GW will stop shipping blisters to FLGSs and only do GW stores and the online store to try to increase their profit margin
Slightly wrong. GW currently has a range of miniatures that are available to both their own retail stores and independent accounts. The miniatures that move to Mail Order only leave both independent stores, and GW retail stores. Both types of store can special order them and have them shipped from mail order to them.
There have been models moving out of the main range steadily over the last few years, especially as new plastic kits come out. The latest move is highly accelerated, and comes with a different message. I've never been told to "not orderd metal, sell down existing stock, and wait for a big announcement". Metal is on 'sell down' and 'available while stock lasts'. That an entirely different animal from 'moved to Direct Order'.
I'm betting on a move to resin based on conversations with several people who have recently left GW. Current employees obviously can't talk about it until the announcement in may. Ex-employees are under no such gag order.
The bottom line is, GW in the US makes a lot of money selling to independent FLGS. Cutting the amount of product we have will hurt profits. Replacing those kits with resin will let us continue to make them money while cutting their own costs as metal continues to rise in price.
When GW gets 500 stores in the US, not 50, then they might be able to do without independent stores. But they have trouble keeping those stores going, so I don't look for a huge expansion anytime soon.
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Post by: Lunchb0x
Seriously, this would be a great time for GW to do some sort of PR and clear this up.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Lunchb0x wrote:Seriously, this would be a great time for GW to do some sort of PR and clear this up.
If you know much about GW, you know that this is not their style.
They don't tip their hand until they're ready to lay down their cards.
Eric
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Post by: Lunchb0x
Oh I know...but this is just getting annoying. Every year some new rumour comes out about X , Y, Z being done by GW. I dont really care if they make a change, I just dont want them to stop making the specialist games.
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Post by: spaceelf
Not to get too far off topic, but won't a move to resin create an astronomical increase in the number of counterfeit minis? People are already recasting GWs minis in resin. If the real ones are resin, it presumably would be easier to be duped by the knock offs.
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Post by: Pacific
Kilkrazy wrote:I agree.
The number of newbies who buy specialist games must be tiny. Presumably veterans have by now bought what they want or aren't interested.
There is zero ambition within GW for promoting old or new SG titles. They have been left to wither on the vine for several years.
When I was working as a staffer, I heard that GW had initially intended to close down SGs entirely. However, Jervis Johnson offered to take them under his own responsibility (essentially being responsible for everything), and I suppose with the understanding it would cost practically zero upkeep and might generate a modest income they let him do so.
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Post by: mikhaila
Lunchb0x wrote:Oh I know...but this is just getting annoying. Every year some new rumour comes out about X , Y, Z being done by GW. I dont really care if they make a change, I just dont want them to stop making the specialist games.
I'd seriously consider buying what you need now.
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Post by: insaniak
spaceelf wrote:Not to get too far off topic, but won't a move to resin create an astronomical increase in the number of counterfeit minis? People are already recasting GWs minis in resin. If the real ones are resin, it presumably would be easier to be duped by the knock offs.
No moreso than is currently happening with people recasting in metal.
If anything, it will probably make it easier to spot counterfeits, since it's easier to spot different types of resin than to tell the difference between two different tin alloys...
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Post by: Agamemnon2
GW killing Epic and BB would be a coup de grace that's been long in the making. And really, the fanbase deserves some kind of closure, and the ability to move on to better games without the spectre of SG lingering on, like a man on life support.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Agamemnon2 wrote:GW killing Epic and BB would be a coup de grace that's been long in the making. And really, the fanbase deserves some kind of closure, and the ability to move on to better games without the spectre of SG lingering on, like a man on life support.
Its never easy to see your favorite games and miniatures die... I think fanbase who supported the games need much more than a closure.
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Post by: Pacific
Indeed, and you could argue that the games will continue to be played and enjoyed by many even if GW does pull the plug. It's not like they have had any official support for years in any case, and there is a pretty healthy fan community for most of them.
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Post by: niceguyteddy
Perhaps GW is moving blisters to mail order only due to the price of metal and a planned transition to another material. This may be the only way to remain profitable on those products made in metal.
This way GW can maintain the supply to the player base (direct only and at full retail but with free shipping) until the transition to a new material is complete. With other companies raising prices as well I suspect GW would be operating at a loss if they continued to sell blisters to independent stores.
Now if this is all indeed the case I think it is a quick, bold, and wise move.
Not a GW apologist, they do a lot that confounds me. Im looking at this from a purely business aspect. The down side is the stores get hurt. While your ordering your blisters might as well toss in a few other things right. This may work so well for GW they may think keeping blisters mail order only is a good idea. I would think it is not.
I think GW would only benefit from announcing their plans even if nothing is in stone atm. Throw in a line about it being a fluid situation and things change.
Just my 2 drachma worth.
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Post by: valiantjared
mikhaila wrote:valiantjared wrote:my FLGS said that it looks like GW will stop shipping blisters to FLGSs and only do GW stores and the online store to try to increase their profit margin
Slightly wrong. GW currently has a range of miniatures that are available to both their own retail stores and independent accounts. The miniatures that move to Mail Order only leave both independent stores, and GW retail stores. Both types of store can special order them and have them shipped from mail order to them.
There have been models moving out of the main range steadily over the last few years, especially as new plastic kits come out. The latest move is highly accelerated, and comes with a different message. I've never been told to "not orderd metal, sell down existing stock, and wait for a big announcement". Metal is on 'sell down' and 'available while stock lasts'. That an entirely different animal from 'moved to Direct Order'.
I'm betting on a move to resin based on conversations with several people who have recently left GW. Current employees obviously can't talk about it until the announcement in may. Ex-employees are under no such gag order.
The bottom line is, GW in the US makes a lot of money selling to independent FLGS. Cutting the amount of product we have will hurt profits. Replacing those kits with resin will let us continue to make them money while cutting their own costs as metal continues to rise in price.
When GW gets 500 stores in the US, not 50, then they might be able to do without independent stores. But they have trouble keeping those stores going, so I don't look for a huge expansion anytime soon.
I pray that day never happens, I refuse to go to the GW stores because they are just bleeding money away from our local stores
Support your local community everyone!
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Post by: Kroothawk
Still waiting for the official announcement, but a local German GW shop revealed the official name from an official meeting yesterday on Facebook: it is "Citadel Finecast" and will start 28th May (thanks to mytaru on Warseer for finding this).
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Post by: Kroothawk
Speaking of prices:
To celebrate this transformation from metal to resin, expect ... paper and plastic products to go up in prices, esp. Codices, army books (including the Tomb King book!), then most battleforce boxes and several others.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Link's broken. Your mistake or do you think GW got them to shut down the page?
Conspiracy theorists; Go!
Eric
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Post by: Kanluwen
GW SHUT THEM DOWN FOR REVILING THEIR PLANS!
Did I do it right, Magickal?
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Post by: Worglock
Kanluwen wrote:GW SHUT THEM DOWN FOR REVILING THEIR PLANS!
Did I do it right, Magickal?
Do what right? Make a terrible post referencing a bad meme?
Yes.
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Post by: Sarigar
GW US announced the finecast and details to be released next Monday.
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Post by: Eilif
Sarigar wrote:GW US announced the finecast and details to be released next Monday.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16400050a
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Post by: Phototoxin
Oh dear. A lot.
This isn't good. Might be time to start dusting off my Cryx
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Post by: gloomygrim
Last time GW told flgs no to ordering i was working in one n it was just repackaging, I couldnt care less either way if its s decent model it will get bought by people if its a resonable price. Sorry if its GW version of resonable lol.
But if there moving to resin why release new metal minis for redone armies? makes no sense, ahhh its GW hence the no making sense, to make molds for new minis then stop so soon.
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Post by: Vandil
Looks like a 5%-25% price increase across the board.
KING LOUEN LEONCOEUR £30.00/$49.50USD/$83AUD
ouch!
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Kanluwen wrote:GW SHUT THEM DOWN FOR REVILING THEIR PLANS!
Did I do it right, Magickal?
Close, but I think I've gotta go with Worglock on this one, re: the inclusion of the meme.
You could have probably elaborated more, as well. Perhaps about the specific threats they probably made or just a diatribe on the evil that is GW corporate.
A good initial effort, though.
Eric
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Post by: MrNurgle
When I found out GW announced they were changing Metals into Resin kits I was thinking wow! They are trying to save money by using a cheaper material and knoking up the price....I am sorry, but I am afraid that I am not going to pay £25 for 7 resin Plague marines! Automatically Appended Next Post: SkaerKrow wrote:This is unfortunate, since I really have no interest in resin models. Then again, I've been increasingly disenchanted by Games Workshop for a couple of years now, so this seems like as good of a time as any to go in a different direction with my gaming dollars.
Exactly what I was thinking!
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Post by: Radical_Edward
Does any site have a listing for the new US prices? All I see are the UK prices... thanks!
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Post by: Kroothawk
Not yet, as it just leaked from a UK website. It is not public right now.
Edit: Someone posted it now:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?pli=1&key=tIytonRUpm6fRkxpIjqcDzQ#gid=0
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Post by: MagickalMemories
I do believe I've just found what my limit is.
GW's about to see a nice little purchase from me of a few codices and the like that I never got around to picking up. After that, I think I'm sticking with trades and non-GW models only.
Eric
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Post by: MrNurgle
I may keep on playing warhammer 40k but use non gamesworkshop products/ ebay models and stop going into store...
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Post by: Shigematsu
I suppose I lucked out being near two places which give around 20-30% discounts, though being in Canada makes it still quite pricey with that 12% BC tax following me around. If I'm feeling convoluted... I can always find ways to avoid that tax, but that's hardly worth the effort of saving 7%
This price hike likely won't change my buying habits too much, though I suppose having another hobby which makes WH40k look inexpensive helps.
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Post by: D.Smith
From a personal point of view i quite like the switch to resin, the price hike is just the GW we've all come to know to be honest, prices have been rising steadily for as long as I can remember.
The 'hate' camp for metal has just been reshuffled and become the 'resin' hate camp with a slightly different group of people as part of that group.
I hate the metal figures, so didnt buy them if i could avoid it/buy as little as possible.
The same is going to apply for other people that dislike resin (i'll admit theres alot more that dont like resin though)
Dan
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