Okay, at first this rumour seemed to weird to post when it first appeared on Warseer on 13th March, but now there are more signs it might be true after all. Still take all the salt you need:
13th March:
Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:Okay! If you look back over the discussion you'll note that people have noticed a drop in quantities of metal blisters.
The price of tin just goes up all the time. We no GW wish to stop using it at some point. Which point?
A source of mine that isn't GW, combined with a rumour from one of my contacts suggests that it might change sooner than expected.
Now there not going to make all those blisters in "injected" plastic. Not metal and not polystyrene. So that leaves?...
14th March:
Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:Well bearing in mind this is only a rumour. I use the same silicone and resin supplier as GW. In one of their most recent newsletters they had an article about GW. The article was about how FW had been using their products for years but now they were working closer than ever with GW to implement new techniques and production methods. I read it and just thought FW.
But something one of my contacts said suddenly made me think of the article. So resin blisters seams exactly what we'll be getting. I could be wrong. That I'll admit but I like the sound of it.
(...)
They're called Bentley Chemicals and to be honest their article didn't really reveal anything. They just seemed proud that GW was one of their customers.
To answer the other posters. Resin dust is harmful but I wouldn't expect polystyrene dust to be any better for you. Resins are petrochemical products the sane as plastic after all.
I wouldn't expect them to use the same resins as FW cos in my opinion it's not the best for thin parts. I got some Khorne terminator bits recently and damn are the stylised horns fragile.
22nd March:
Harry wrote:You have to start somewhere.
You are doing very well for a first rumour.
And today's note by Battlefield Berlin, a big retailer in Germany:
Just got note from GW that they will stop the production of metal products for at least 3 months. The Sales guys don`t know why, most items are already out of stock, so I guess they stopped productions already some weeks ago...
Posted by Maccwar over at Warseer, and the retailer denied it to be a 1st April joke.
On one side I like resin for allowing better and finer sculpts to be made. But I am not convinced that it is adequate for mass production as a teen toy because of hazardous resin dust and difficulties with getting the mould release off the model (depends on manufacturer, some sell precleaned).
So all this may or may not fit with several metal boxes and blisters being removed from stores. We will see.
Edit 2nd April:
Harry felt the urge to confirm this rumour in a non-cryptic way. And you should never question the confirmations by the pieman
sigur wrote:If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see.
It is a HUGE change.
It is not an April fools joke. (I have known about it for a while it is just unfortunate timing for the rumour to break).
It is really happening.
mechanicalhorizon from Privateer Press wrote:If what I've been told is correct they are going to be spin-casting the resin using vulcanized silicone molds, the same molds used for metal casting just with a different cutting technique more suited to the flow of resin. We had in the past retrofitted some old molds for metal casting to test out resin casting and they worked fairly well, 3even better with some extra cutting.
So if GW is sticking with this method, and they probably are since spin casting resin is mostly the same as spin casting metal, it also uses much of the same equipment so there would be no extra set-up cost.
If this is correct than they can still use the existing masters to make new molds.
Even is they were to move towards an RTV-type material you could still use the existing masters to make new molds.
There really is no reason for GW to stop making any product because of a change in materials.
This is what I heard.
yabbadabba wrote:GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.
What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.
The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again
All of that sounds right. I have had the same thoughts.
Except the "they have decided to love vets again".
I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.
Just seems in efficient to me - a way for GW to save money, but put a product out there that is impractical for their target audience (12 year olds). And as I said in the other thread, if their QA is anything like Forge World’s, then they’d damn well better get their plastic tech up to snuff and start making anything and everything in plastic.
Not to mention that the change to resin will likely trigger an across-the-board price rise to ‘make up for production costs’ or whatever nonsense they spin in their next financial report.
The hazardous substance issue and the fragility issue both require a solution before a sane corporation would consider mass-producing in resin. Perhaps GW is working with Bentley to solve these issues at the same time?
The hazardous dust thing is a bit overstated. I mean, it's not like breathing plastic filings is good for you either, but no one harps on about that.
Another concern is that resin kits require somewhat more preparation than metal and plastic. I wouldn't dream of putting together a resin kit without washing the parts first to get rid of the mould release agent. You think Timmy 12-Year-Old is gonna want to wash his models before he can start playing with them?
H.B.M.C. wrote:The hazardous dust thing is a bit overstated. I mean, it's not like breathing plastic filings is good for you either, but no one harps on about that.
The 'hazardous dust thing' is far from being 'a bit overstated'. When working on Forge World or other large resin pieces where you're going to be doing a lot of filing/cutting--you'd have to be rather dumb to not at the very least wear a dust mask.
Anyways, if they change up the resin manufacturing process(which is likely, since they'd be moving it to full-on mass production, unlike the way FW does it) it's possible they could set it up so that parts don't require cutting/filing and components are more interchangeable.
Another concern is that resin kits require somewhat more preparation than metal and plastic. I wouldn't dream of putting together a resin kit without washing the parts first to get rid of the mould release agent. You think Timmy 12-Year-Old is gonna want to wash his models before he can start playing with them?
Depends on the resin kit. AFV Club Taiwan has plenty of resin kit components that don't require washing to remove a mould release agent.
And frankly: "Timmy 12-year-old" likely wouldn't wash his models if he was new to the hobby and still in the whole "enamel paint over bare material" stage that so many people assume Timmy 12-year-old to be in. There's plenty of older people, who supposedly have "a large amount of experience" with resin models and don't wash them.
It's not an isolated phenomenon to Timmy 12-year-old, HB
Jackal wrote:Also, i wash metal before i put it together.
Mould release prevents some glues working.
Also have to score cross hatching into it for a good bond.
Yeah and there are people who wash plastic models for the same reasons. My point is that washing plastic or metal models isn't necessary. For resin on the other hand, I've had trouble getting them to go together if they weren't washed first... and sometimes they feel slimy to the touch. Resin needs washing, the others really don't most of the time.
I just can't see GW mass producing models that require that much prep when their target audience is people who aren't even teenagers yet.
I'd imagine they would have to make new moulds which would mean no mould lines to clean (yay) but the usual problems with mass produced resin like uneven surfaces and dust and shavings that need to be scrubbed off. If new moulds are required though, there will be a loooot of discontinued models.
If they go the spartan games route, hurrah, dystopian wars have the best quality models I've ever worked with by quite a large margin. If they go the battlefront route, meh, average quality resin, probably equal in annoyance to current flash heavy GW metal models. If they go the forgeworld route then it will probably end up taking less time to sculpt your own model from scratch rather than clean them.
Actually, I'm wrong. It's not a case of whether Timmy Twelve-Year-Old will want to wash his new toy soliders, it's whether he'll even know that he has to in the first place.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Actually, I'm wrong. It's not a case of whether Joe Schmoe Who Refuses To Read Forge World's "Working with Resin" FAQ will want to wash his new toy soliders, it's whether he'll even know that he has to in the first place.
What if they did a mix of Resin and Plastic.Ok here is the scenario.For example,I have an old Berserker metal body plastic parts.Well make the body out of resin and the weapon and part option out of plastic.I think that would sound more like a proper scenario.That would make for a good kit.
Flames of War and Ramshackle use quite cheap resin, FoW produces in Malaysia with obvious quality control problems.
Maybe the return of FW resin production from China to UK is somehow related to this.
And resin dust is VERY aggressive and cancerogen when inhaled.
Resin dust is more pervasive than plastic dust, all resin kits need sawing and sanding and you produce copious amounts of dust which goes into the atmosphere even when you have a bowl of water handy. Sure plastic dust isn't good for you, but that doesn't seem to be produced in volume. Most plastic kits you cut off the sprue, touch up with a file, job done.
People may pooh-pooh health and safety, but resin dust is nasty stuff and I'm pretty sure sale is restricted to children which is the reason GW changed over to lead-free alloys in the figures in the first place. Stores won't be able to supply kids with resin figures so unless it's suddenly non-toxic that's a non-starter.
Then there's all the issues. Resin figures are fragile, you can't toss them around like metal and plastic, the techniques involved in working with resin are more demanding on the hobbyist than plastic and metal. It's not child friendly by any stretch, unless they are thinking of using some resin compound with entirely different properties than those we are used to seeing.
And they just released several new metal models (the Beats for DE, Draigo). Why would they release new models only to discontinue metal production a week later? It doesn't add up.
Kanluwen wrote:Fixed that for you. Quit hating on kids, grumpy!
Very cute Kan, but my concern remains legitimate - Timmy Twelve-Year-Old isn't going to know about FW's little Q&A on resin models. And when he finds out about it he's not going to be too happy that he has to wash his new toy soldiers.
H.B.M.C. wrote:And they just released several new metal models (the Beats for DE, Draigo). Why would they release new models only to discontinue metal production a week later? It doesn't add up.
Kanluwen wrote:Fixed that for you. Quit hating on kids, grumpy!
Very cute Kan, but my concern remains legitimate - Timmy Twelve-Year-Old isn't going to know about FW's little Q&A on resin models. And when he finds out about it he's not going to be too happy that he has to wash his new toy soldiers.
Then Timmy Twelve-Year-Old is going to have to put some effort into prepping and painting his models. I don't see that as an issue, I actually see it as a positive. Learns to respect the work people put into their models. But the example of "Timmy Twelve-Year-Old" is just as possible as "Timmy The-Thirty-Year-Old" who comes onto the Internet and cries that his model that he ordered from Forge World doesn't take paint well. Age doesn't really matter in this case, because there's--again--plenty of "veterans" who haven't the first bloody clue how to work with resin, even when they order it from the site themselves.
And let's face it, if GW moves to full production there will be a new edition of "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures" that will prominently feature the FWFAQ.
Kanluwen wrote:Then Timmy Twelve-Year-Old is going to have to put some effort into prepping and painting his models. I don't see that as an issue, I actually see it as a positive. Learns to respect the work people put into their models. But the example of "Timmy Twelve-Year-Old" is just as possible as "Timmy The-Thirty-Year-Old" who comes onto the Internet and cries that his model that he ordered from Forge World doesn't take paint well. Age doesn't really matter in this case, because there's--again--plenty of "veterans" who haven't the first bloody clue how to work with resin, even when they order it from the site themselves.
Well that's just it. A lot of people from what I can see are gamers not modellers. Resin is not for the casual hobbyist. GW market themselves at kids and their parents, I think it's better to see GW as just an expensive toyshop in this regard. Can you sell toxic materials and stuff that needs to be handled with significantly more care and respect? No because these toys will break too easily and upset/frustrate kids and their parents. You can't dismiss this with a demand that they put 'some effort' into prepping and painting models, a sizeable number of players proudly defend their minimal and mediocre efforts regarding painting. I'm fairly sure the reason they have produced more plastic is because it's more child and amateur friendly and a lot more forgiving on the casual modeller. Switching the metal over to plastic is almost a perversion of that approach.
Kanluwen wrote:Then Timmy Twelve-Year-Old is going to have to put some effort into prepping and painting his models. I don't see that as an issue, I actually see it as a positive. Learns to respect the work people put into their models. But the example of "Timmy Twelve-Year-Old" is just as possible as "Timmy The-Thirty-Year-Old" who comes onto the Internet and cries that his model that he ordered from Forge World doesn't take paint well. Age doesn't really matter in this case, because there's--again--plenty of "veterans" who haven't the first bloody clue how to work with resin, even when they order it from the site themselves.
Well that's just it. A lot of people from what I can see are gamers not modellers. Resin is not for the casual hobbyist. GW market themselves at kids and their parents, I think it's better to see GW as just an expensive toyshop in this regard.
Fair point.
Can you sell toxic materials and stuff that needs to be handled with significantly more care and respect? No because these toys will break too easily and upset/frustrate kids and their parents.
Resin by itself isn't really "toxic". It's when you file it or do excessive sawing that you get the "toxic" factor.
On the breakability--have you seen some of the toys put out today?
You can't dismiss this with a demand that they put 'some effort' into prepping and painting models, a sizeable number of players proudly defend their minimal and mediocre efforts regarding painting.
Could this finally be the push towards "Hobby First, Game Second"? Nothing wrong with that in my mind. I'll never understand why some people put such little effort into their army.
I'm fairly sure the reason they have produced more plastic is because it's more child and amateur friendly and a lot more forgiving on the casual modeller.
The pro-modeler as well. Have you seen the stuff some people have done using plastics?
Switching the metal over to plastic is almost a perversion of that approach.
Kanluwen wrote:Then Timmy Twelve-Year-Old is going to have to put some effort into prepping and painting his models. I don't see that as an issue, I actually see it as a positive. Learns to respect the work people put into their models. But the example of "Timmy Twelve-Year-Old" is just as possible as "Timmy The-Thirty-Year-Old" who comes onto the Internet and cries that his model that he ordered from Forge World doesn't take paint well. Age doesn't really matter in this case, because there's--again--plenty of "veterans" who haven't the first bloody clue how to work with resin, even when they order it from the site themselves.
Well that's just it. A lot of people from what I can see are gamers not modellers. Resin is not for the casual hobbyist. GW market themselves at kids and their parents, I think it's better to see GW as just an expensive toyshop in this regard. Can you sell toxic materials and stuff that needs to be handled with significantly more care and respect? No because these toys will break too easily and upset/frustrate kids and their parents. You can't dismiss this with a demand that they put 'some effort' into prepping and painting models, a sizeable number of players proudly defend their minimal and mediocre efforts regarding painting. I'm fairly sure the reason they have produced more plastic is because it's more child and amateur friendly and a lot more forgiving on the casual modeller. Switching the metal over to plastic is almost a perversion of that approach.
Absolutely Howard A Treesong, it runs counter to the whole ethos that GW has been running towards for at least the last ten years of making GWs products suitable for children. Perhaps as far back as the movement towards white metal, which was done to make the product range available to a younger audience. Note that my comment is based on the assumption that there hasn't been some wonder new technology developed which bypasses all the hazards.
It comes down to this: If I had a 9 or 10 year old child (perhaps even older) who wanted to get into GW, I would not be happy with them handling resin models. The risks of slipping with a model knife or glueing your fingers together pale into insignificance when compared to the problems caused with the inhalation of resin dust, which is confirmed as being carcinogenic. Any parent on here will tell you, it doesn't matter if such a possibility is 0.001%, it's not something a parent would be comfortable letting a young child work with.
And many will go a step further - they will tell their child's friend's parents about it also, and may purposefully direct them towards a model range or game (and there are plenty more out there nowadays) that can not be potentially hazardous to my child's health.
And health warnings on the product will mean even parents who are completely unaware of this will type one search into google, read what it has to say, and then look elsewhere.
If this rumour is true, it is absolutely beyond my comprehension. For a company that has purposefully targeted an increasingly younger gamer, at the expense of it's veteran hobbyist, it reveals a startling lack of comprehension regarding parent psychology.
This, along with the one-man store could be potentially be the most disastrous business decision GW could make, and in my eyes is almost suicidal.
I hate resin with a passion. If GW really does this, that means no more blisters for me. So that means no more complete armies for me. So that means no GW games for me.
Well, GW has been moving towards having at least 1 character model for every army be in plastic.
Heck, you can have an entire Fantesy Empire army be plastic with not 1, but 2 character packs in plastic(as a bonus you actually get 2 models in both sets)
Hopefully, they at least move all generic characters into plastic. i do kinda like the wieight of a good o'l fashined metal HQ though.
shame GW hasn't got a lick of commong sense when it comes to picking wargear for metal models though
Grey Templar wrote:Well, GW has been moving towards having at least 1 character model for every army be in plastic.
That stopped a while ago.
There's no plastic Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Dark Eldar or Grey Knight character. There's no plastic Skaven leader (the one in the starter box one doesn't count). I don't recall Beastman getting a plastic character. Warriors of Chaos? Did they get one? Chaos Daemons? Orks (outside of Black Lagoon)? Tyranids?
In fact - when was the last plastic character? High Elves or Chaos Space Marines?
Pacific wrote:This, along with the one-man store could be potentially be the most disastrous business decision GW could make, and in my eyes is almost suicidal.
GW suiciding? Company under new management, prices go down, metals back, hopefully listen to gamers more.....
Or the company just goes out of business.
OT, I have no experience with resin. I don't really want to die from modelling but...
"Here lies Doop Dude, 1993-2011. A life not to model yours on."
The resin may be one of the newer plastic resins that have started appearing.
One of the manufacturers recently mentioned using some such resin, but I cannot recall who.
Also a recent video for the Raging Heroes Manticore demonstrated a resin that was palstic and bendy.
I assume this would be the type to be used.
As to resin dust, any is not going to be good. But I don't think that resin is going to be singled out without good cause, for reasons stated above.
Not taking precautions on the grounds that it is 'elf and safetee gorn mad is not recommended imho.
I'm ambivalent about resin/metal as a material, but at least on the mold removal agents, wouldn't it be possible for GW to wash the miniature? I know that this would add another whole step to the production process, but bam! No one has to wash resin models at home. GW doesn't have to tell you to do so, or explain what a mold release agent is. I mean, how hard could it be to wash models during the production?
Of course, the whole carcinogenic resin dust thing is still there, but given that GW is fine with people using superglue and spray paint, neither of which are particularly good for you (and neither of which you might want the irrepressible Timmy monkeying around with), I'm not sure why they would be bothered with resin dust. Particularly if they feel that you can assemble models by clipping them from the sprue and scraping (not sanding) any mold lines off. I'm not saying I agree with that (or disagree with it), but there's hardly anyone out there who argues that you can't expect Timmy to assemble his models due to the dangers of superglue, or prime them, due to the hazards of spray paint.
Don't know of anyone who does wash the models, and am not just talking about gaming models but also scale models. It isn't just resin that has the release agent on them, metals and plastics need washing too.
Washing them would need investment in machinery or wages for people to give the sprues a scrub.
It is a 5 minute job at home with an old toothbrush, some washing up liquid and a bit of care not to lose small parts down the plug hole.
I don't think it'd be that complex to wash them at the factory. I'm picturing something along the lines of those little machines that wash jewlry - they're electronic and do it all without any human intervention (besides putting the jewelry into it and taking it out). Just imagine a batch of new models being finished, put into a big one of those for 20 minutes, and then taken out, left to dry for an hour, then packaged.
Time to give Timmy a father to son talk about the facts of life.
"Man up and wash those soldiers boy! the chicks don't dig the body odour!"
"sob... bu... I don't like girls Paw, I wanna marry a Speezz Mahreen when I grows up!"
the Resin seems to be different between the 2, color being the most obvious with the fact i have never had to wash the models the 2nd.
and i know for a fact the BF Resin still has the mold release because i can occasionally see it flaking off.
the resin also seems less brittle, but that could be because they don't have such small pieces(only tank hulls and turrets are resin. details and small pieces are either pewter or plastic)
Well I've got a number of resin products from other companies (Scibor, Micro Art Studios, Antenociti's Workshop) and there's a difference in colour all the time:
1. Scibor uses very grey resin.
2. Micro Art tends to favour greenish resin.
3. Antenociti's Workshop likes to mix it up - I've got dark grey/green resin and light grey resin alongside hot pink, sky blue and near-fluro purple!
I'd always assumed that the colour was aribtrary - resin is roughly the same colour (or colours) and you just add a pigment if you want it coloured in a certain way.
Grey Templar wrote:yup, and they were all flavors of awsome
Yes, but my point is that other than the (wildly) varying colours there never seemed to be much difference in the actual material. I had to wash them all the same, and removing the flash on one was no different to removing the flash on another (except the Scibor models, as they had no flash... how do they do that?).
Except that it might not be about the colour but the type of resin used? Not all resins are the same.
Someone said recently that the flash is less if a certain type of mould is used iirc may have been on the Studio McVey site?
what is it like to have a good memory? I have forgotten
Grey Templar wrote:yup, and they were all flavors of awsome
Yes, but my point is that other than the (wildly) varying colours there never seemed to be much difference in the actual material. I had to wash them all the same, and removing the flash on one was no different to removing the flash on another (except the Scibor models, as they had no flash... how do they do that?).
Actually there are significant differences in resins. The stuff that Armorcast (terrain maker) uses is significantly "harder" that the stuff that Forge World uses.
But I like resin more than Metal. It is easier to paint on. With metal, When paint is applied and dried, paint on the sharp pointy edges on the metal model tend to chip off. Resin doesn't have this problem. Paint stays on as if were plastic.
I would have liked this if it became a reality. Too bad
I've been casting miniatures in Resin as part of my University course for a few years now. Personally, I think the transition from metal to resin will be very successful so long as they have a decent degassing/cooldown period to avoid the airbubbles and warping that you often see on Forgeworld pieces.
Practically speaking the resins we work with are no different that plastic sprued kits and I can only expect GW to have access to better resins.
Worglock wrote:I'm still amazed that all you need to put on an April Fool's thread is "1st April safe" and people will buy into it.
Except that this started more than a week ago. Keep up.
I know. So it's ok to believe in it. Because everything posted on forums is legit and people would -never- evvvvverrrr post dumb stuff and pass it off as fact.
Especially not around April 1st. Because that would be too obvious.
The models currently being sculpted/moulded that would be metal are all resin from now on... But then again, there are still 16mins left for April fools...
Warboss Narznok wrote:I would have liked this if it became a reality. Too bad
Resin can produce wonderful quality and I like it for that reason. But my head tells me it doesn't seem like a particularly wise move for mass production and sale through GW highstreet stores.
GW don't even sell Forgeworld through their stores because it's a complex adult product. This would be a huge reversal on that kind of thinking, I know Forgeworld tends to be kept as a niche product and not mainstream for "brand" purposes but the issues with resin are definitely a factor.
Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.
Warboss Narznok wrote:I would have liked this if it became a reality. Too bad
Resin can produce wonderful quality and I like it for that reason. But my head tells me it doesn't seem like a particularly wise move for mass production and sale through GW highstreet stores.
GW don't even sell Forgeworld through their stores because it's a complex adult product. This would be a huge reversal on that kind of thinking, I know Forgeworld tends to be kept as a niche product and not mainstream for "brand" purposes but the issues with resin are definitely a factor.
Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.
Maybe something akin to this plastic/resin hybrid that Mantic used for their Revenant Cavalry?
Howard A Treesong wrote:Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.
It's almost a given. There are multiple different types of resins, many of them far superior in quality and safety to what the average miniature company (and that includes Forge World) can afford to use.
H.B.M.C. wrote:What is that stuff exactly? What makes it so different? Does plastic glue work with it, or does it still require super-glue?
Plastic resin was what alkemy used to be, its bendy on thin parts ( so it wont break as normal FW resins) takes good detail and it needs superglue... If the model design is clever you can pretty much plug and play most parts but if model design is crappy its a nightmare... also not very friendly to clean mould lines since the surface gets a bit crude if your going to clean them in a rush.
Well the way I see it its a middle ground between plastics and resin but inferior to metal if your going to collect and paint characters... in 20 years or so these plasticresin's will not be as collectable as say oop metals...
I think it all boils down to model design, these could turn out average quality ( like most gw stuff) or assembly nightmares... oh and these things are really not hot temperatures friendly they melt and bend very very easy in hot temperatures.
Timmy will enjoy these nevertheless they are easier to put on the bucket of minis and lighter to carry... and a lot closer to toys than classic wargamming miniatures.
I don't know why forgeworld just doesn't use metal for certain things. They obviously have the resources and technology to us metal :3 Metal is just...Cooler.
I despise resin, especially when it comes to painting it. Fiddling around with a delicate piece of resin is really just... UGH. I always feel like I'm about to crack it in half.
makes perfect sense to go from plastic and metal to resin, because now instead of charging £18 for 1 model on foot and knowing idiots will willingly buy it they can charge £40 for 1 model on foot with little increase in production costs and still know there are plenty of /Mod: I don't think it is necessary to broadly slander players. \ out there more than willing to buy those models and not think it overpriced.
Thanks Filbert
Wasn't sure whether it was mantic or not with the "plastic/resin"
Stella
One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.
exactly, just look at tactical squads as a perfect example, £2 to produce, sold for £22, savings passed on to...nobody
Sai-Lauren wrote:To discontinue individual models - whether because they're moving to a different material and you need to clear stocks out to avoid self-competition, or just because they've gone past their shelf life - is very different from shutting down the entire metals production side of the company for 3 months.
GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.
What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.
The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.
exactly, just look at tactical squads as a perfect example, £2 to produce, sold for £22, savings passed on to...nobody
Most business' job is not to save their customers money, its to maximize investment of their owners (shareholders).
Wouldn't be surprised if GW does something exactly like that.
@Kilkrazy: in fact resin is currently much cheaper than tin - even if you add material loss which in case of resin is much higher. But material costs are only a friction of production costs.
For example the cost of casting/labour cost itself is another story - typical resin casting in this case is much more expensive. But note I wrote typical - there are so much different resins and different casting techologies that I could believe that a bigger company (like GW) invests in a setup of more efficient resin casting technology and better resins (which are a kind of plastic anyway). The volume at which they operate would make such option worthwhile .
Just my 5 cents .
We are fully aware that GW is a business and they wanna make monies for their shareholders.
The point is that all things being equal, passing on some of the cost cuts to the customer is "a good thing." There are plenty of instances where being able to produce goods at a lower unit cost means that the retail price of the goods have dropped.
It helps when there is a viable and strong competition. Also helps having a rational customer base.
Today's Forgeworld newsletter describes a Realm of Battle board section they will be making. It is resin, but new heavy duty resin, suitable for a RoB section. There is a thread already started on that news, but the different resin is relevant to this thread.
So there it is, evidence that the concept is already being executed in GW land, though not quite in standard GW products yet!
Just read the first page, but for the older gamers out there, models all used to be lead. In the 1980s there was a big fuss about the toxicity of lead and legislative action pretty much forced all manufacturers away from it.
In America, if you can make a half-assed Save The Children argument, it will fly. Companies know this and thus won't do anything to bring out the angry mothers of doom.
Harry felt the urge to confirm this rumour in a non-cryptic way. And you should never question the confirmations by the pieman
sigur wrote:If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see.
It is a HUGE change.
It is not an April fools joke. (I have known about it for a while it is just unfortunate timing for the rumour to break).
It is really happening.
mechanicalhorizon from Privateer Press wrote:If what I've been told is correct they are going to be spin-casting the resin using vulcanized silicone molds, the same molds used for metal casting just with a different cutting technique more suited to the flow of resin. We had in the past retrofitted some old molds for metal casting to test out resin casting and they worked fairly well, 3even better with some extra cutting.
So if GW is sticking with this method, and they probably are since spin casting resin is mostly the same as spin casting metal, it also uses much of the same equipment so there would be no extra set-up cost.
If this is correct than they can still use the existing masters to make new molds.
Even is they were to move towards an RTV-type material you could still use the existing masters to make new molds.
There really is no reason for GW to stop making any product because of a change in materials.
This is what I heard.
yabbadabba wrote:GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.
What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.
The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again
All of that sounds right. I have had the same thoughts.
Except the "they have decided to love vets again".
I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:We are fully aware that GW is a business and they wanna make monies for their shareholders.
The point is that all things being equal, passing on some of the cost cuts to the customer is "a good thing."
There are plenty of instances where being able to produce goods at a lower unit cost means that the retail price of the goods have dropped.
It helps when there is a viable and strong competition.
Also helps having a rational customer base.
Reducing price is only necessary in two circumstances.
1. When competitors undercut you. GW has no competitors. It is the only supplier of WHFB/40K in the world.
2. If your price gets so high that people can't afford it. There is a little bit of evidence that GW have reached that point, but I don't think it is conclusive.
Once you get to 2, you have to fine-tune your prices to maximise profit. This is difficult as there are many factors involved.
Sure, but there's a difference between "necessary" and "useful". Most of us are in the hobby for the long haul. If GW even did occasional brief promotional price drops or deals -- buy three sets, get the cheapest one free, say -- we'd feel grateful, we'd like 'em a bit more, we'd buy a stack of stuff then, we'd still buy the occasional impulse purchase at other times of year, and they'd make loads of dosh...
I predict a public statement like this:
"Due to metal prices going through the roof, GW decided to change from metal to the much cheaper resin. To celebrate this, prices go up 10%."
Well yes.
That is why I added that it helps to have competition and rational customers.
While they are the only makers of Warhammer, they are not the only games system. While some folks will buy whatever at any cost some bods will say enough already and go play with other toy soldiers or at best buy fewer models.
Ian Sturrock wrote:Sure, but there's a difference between "necessary" and "useful". Most of us are in the hobby for the long haul. If GW even did occasional brief promotional price drops or deals -- buy three sets, get the cheapest one free, say -- we'd feel grateful, we'd like 'em a bit more, we'd buy a stack of stuff then, we'd still buy the occasional impulse purchase at other times of year, and they'd make loads of dosh...
That's the fine tuning part, and it's hard to get right.
Most GW customers aren't in the hobby for the long haul, though.
So, do you think there's any chance of them moving the Forgeworld stuff over to the same manufacturing process in order to increase quality and turn around times?
Also, would you see this move over to resin as an attempt to increase the uptake of Forgeworld models in the wider market as people would get used to working with resin and feel less put off by it all? It's been noted recently that some of the FW vehicles are actually pretty reasonably priced compared to the plastic kits, for example the Warp Hunter.
On a separate, but related note. As has been noted earlier in the thread, there havn't been any plastic character packs for a while and Forgeworld/GW have been releasing lots of upgrade packs for space marine chapters/characters. What do you think the likelihood is of this being the reason for them holding off on them? If they are looking to replace the metals with something else then a generic character pack or two per race with resin upgrades for unique parts or special characters kind of makes sense.
The breakdown of the Dark Eldar Archon seems to imply some form of modularity being planned for, at least in some ranges... the Grey knight characters not so much though.
Kroothawk wrote:I predict a public statement like this:
"Due to metal prices going through the roof, GW decided to change from metal to the much cheaper resin. To celebrate this, prices go up 10%."
I espect something along those lines also... They will blame metal prices today... say resin is cheaper in the long run and then charge as much or more than metals.
My concerns are not the material or price tag but the quality of the models... even if metal is the material i like to paint the most and not every mini should be converted or modified, some miniatures should be sculpted in a way that your only desire is to paint them and dont change a thing... well thats why my GW stuff tends to be fully converted and other ranges Im totally satisfied to just paint. So yes to me its a quality issue, if they keep the same current quality then current prices are to much.
From a collector prespective this is a serious downgrade... also plastics resins do not strip well of paint so second hand painting on models will be a bit harder to accomplish...
The dreamer in me says this is a great chance to change methods and increase quality.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looked at new resin thing from FW
The soft details on the front hill and barrels are a bit of a let down, everything looks like its melting.
Here is my question - what will happen to the Specialist games? Will they be made into resin, or just discontinued?
If they are discontinued, the only place to find them would be on ebay, so prices would sky rocket.... If they are moved to resin, however, they'd be easier to convert, no doubt making all of the players happy.
...what are these "specialist games" of which you speak? GW doesn't sell anything but 40k, Fantasy, and Lord of the Rings! They've never sold anything else, and never will!
Sidstyler wrote:...what are these "specialist games" of which you speak? GW doesn't sell anything but 40k, Fantasy, and Lord of the Rings! They've never sold anything else, and never will!
You mean if I try to order a blood bowl team they'll just take my money and send me space marines? :(
Whilst this news continues to alarm me, I have to say that nothing in the Citadel range has ever been 'Timmy-Twelve-Year-Old-Proof', 'Epileptic-Thirty-Year-Old-Proof' or anything remotely similar. Building the kits properly takes some degree of skill. These skills can theoretically be learned by anyone and those skills can be developed to any potential level of mastery.
It might be worth telling people in the real-world wargaming community exactly who Harry is when posting news like this. I know, but to anyone else 'confirmed by Harry' probably just sounds silly.
I have had a few bits from forgeworld, wish "resin dust is VERY aggressive and cancerogen" had been mentioned to me before i started filing them down to fit. Not that I snort it or anything, plus forgeworld resin stuff is usually warped slightly and feels very crumbly. If they change to FW type resin i will be shocked as its ****.
grizgrin wrote:Is it possible this resin is some kind of intermediary step toward plastics? Doesnt seem very likely, but.....I'm grasping at straws here.
That's very doubtful, as the moulding process is completely different. Metal/Resin are quite similar though.
Harry is the most trusted rumour source on Warseer (with Hastings coming directly after that). He told us 2.5 years in advance of Space Hulk, he was bashed on Warseer for telling about a new plastic High Elf chariot drawn by lions (which eventually turned out true). After that and after some displeasure by his GW sources he decided to rather confirm or deny rumours by others, mostly in a funny cryptic way, and not comment on things too much in advance, say not beyond the next release in 40k or Warhamer Fantasy. But he still knows things a lot in advance. I trust him 100%.
Concerning resin to plastic: Has nothing to do with each other, as GW uses the old rubber moulds of the metal models for resin casting, basically the same process (needs better quality control though). Plastic models need those expensive steel moulds and a different casting process.
BTW I don't think that resin models are easier to convert than metal, quite the contrary. Not because of the health problems but the brittleness of resin.
Depends on type of resin... but the plastic/resins are a lot less brittle and behave In a way more silimar to plastics... easier to drill and pin and also cut... File its harder since, as I said before the smoothness and shine is lost. Gluing is the same like metals.
This is assuming its not the same kind resin that FW uses, because if they go for FW resins then man its going to be a critical hit on quality.
Kroothawk wrote:Harry is the most trusted rumour source on Warseer (with Hastings coming directly after that). He told us 2.5 years in advance of Space Hulk, he was bashed on Warseer for telling about a new plastic High Elf chariot drawn by lions (which eventually turned out true). After that and after some displeasure by his GW sources he decided to rather confirm or deny rumours by others, mostly in a funny cryptic way, and not comment on things too much in advance, say not beyond the next release in 40k or Warhamer Fantasy. But he still knows things a lot in advance. I trust him 100%.
Concerning resin to plastic: Has nothing to do with each other, as GW uses the old rubber moulds of the metal models for resin casting, basically the same process (needs better quality control though). Plastic models need those expensive steel moulds and a different casting process.
BTW I don't think that resin models are easier to convert than metal, quite the contrary. Not because of the health problems but the brittleness of resin.
Agree with that last sentence, in particular. It's much harder to work with than plastic, for sure. At least metal stays in one piece while you dig a saw into it
White metal can suck it. I'll take resin/plastic any day of the week.
Do you need to be a little bit more careful when working with it? Yeah.
But I don't think that really is relevant because most people would be careful working with their own stuff anyways.
Wait!! So those damn regular tactical sapce marines cost only 2 bucks for GW to produce? What fu****g thing GW businesmans are smoking? That would really hurt so much to sell 10 mans for 10 bucks? I doubt that would not repay in sheer amount of sellings...
Oh man, i see a grim, dark future for GW if they keep that policies... Mantic is coming with plastic sci-fi very soon, and their quality is always increasing...
About the resin thing: seens bad... but i dont buy metal pieces anyway, they are overpriced and hard to convert. I hope that reduce the cost...
GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
So it appears (reading the first post of this thread) that if you want a certain miniature in metal you'd have to get it pretty soon before it goes out of stock, never to be seen again but only in resin.
And that probably includes direct-only items like Cortaez and Vulkan, etc.
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
+1, if you just look at material costs, an Audi is probably 5000 bucks. You have to pay 100's of people to design it though, 100's more to build it, dozens to ship it, then the actual costs of building manufacturing facilities, buying equipment, administrative staff to make all that run together, marketing and branding and sales to get it sold, then stores themselves which have staff, rent costs, equipment, utilities and administrative costs all their own. That is how you end up with 60000. Of course some of that has to be profit, it is a business after all, BUT, it isnt hard to figure out that most of the difference is made up by far by the costs mentioned above, NOT by pure greedy profiteering.
Honestly, I think their stuff is pricey, but I also think that going from simple material costs to final cost and subtracting the difference as profit is sinfully inaccurate and completely misleading.
GW's margin on cost of goods is 76% on average. In other words, a £22 box of "stuff" breaks down like this:
VAT = £2
Cost of goods = £4.80 (This includes design, manufacturing, and packaging)
Margin = £15.20
Unfortunately there is a huge amount of overheads in terms of retail space, staff, management, and so on. GW are currently only making about 6% "profit" on their whole turnover, and some of this is due to currency exchange fluctuations.
Raw plastic is cheaper than metal, so the margin on plastic kits is higher and the margin on metal is lower, than 76%.
It is certainly in GW's interest to produce cheaper kits if they can.
The problem with polystyrene moulding is that the setup costs are huge, so it is only cost effective if you can manufacture and sell large numbers of the moulding. For example, a Tau player might buy four boxes of Fire Warriors, but they will never buy more than one box of Shadowsun.
Metal and resin moulding is more of a "hand work" process, so it can be cost-effective for small production runs.
The relative cost of resin to metal means that GW might save something like 50p materials cost on every Shadowsun produced if they can make the kit in resin.
So, why do i feel that this is still an April fools joke?
Although, I love working with resin compared to metal. sawing metal is a pain.
I wish Draigo was resin right now, cause of a major conversion I am considering doing; now, i think it's easier for me to just resculpt him from scratch in the new pose...
Im calling it today: Resin kits for all new sets and $1 increase on paints(omg again?!) $5 increase on squad boxes $10 price increase on all larger boxes beginning with the release of 6th edition in December. Economy help us all...................
P.S. Im not psychic or associated in any way with any company so I hope Im wrong
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
hence why opening shops was the biggest mistake GW ever did.
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
hence why opening shops was the biggest mistake GW ever did.
Funny, because it's what's made them a recognizable name to the point where their stuff has even gotten free advertising in movies, television, and literature.
I really hope there's an ace up GW's sleeve somewhere because if it's the same type of resin as Forgeworld's models then this is big drop in quality. I would seriously consider ordering all of the metal models that I need in advance before they go into resin production.
If they've come up with a new type of resin that they can use instead of metal to replace the existing metal range, i.e. re-using their existing molds and molding process, then this all makes some sense.
If the new resin is close to metal in terms of holding detail, and close to polystyrene in terms of brittleness and ease of cutting, filing etc, then it may even be a good thing.
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
hence why opening shops was the biggest mistake GW ever did.
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
hence why opening shops was the biggest mistake GW ever did.
GW did very well from their shops until they stopped being an RPG and wargame company and became a WH/40K company.
I dont know if the model implemented in the 80's were net was unexistant and as such a store was the base for all things hobby is enough within itself to make it a sucessfull model today... To me they walked the hardest road ( opening tons of stores) and yet didnt spend a few bucks on a competent propaganda campaign. Its like the guy that crosses the desert but after that decides not to walk 100metres to the nearest water fountain.
I can already see exactly how badly that would go over. You'd have the Privateer Press Fanboys fighting the Games Workshop Fanboys in the store, mayhem everywhere!
But really: what else could they feasibly sell without paying their closest competitors?
Kanluwen wrote:GW has shop overhead, regular employees on payroll, Studio staff, and a great many things that people like Mantic or even a bigwig like Privateer Press don't.
hence why opening shops was the biggest mistake GW ever did.
GW did very well from their shops until they stopped being an RPG and wargame company and became a WH/40K company.
I dunno. Their stores do help with their wider (ie younger) audience. And before the 'fething 12 year olds ruining my hobby' stuff, you were probably a 12 year old ruining some older guys hobby years ago. I know I was. Having store gets people attention. They don't have to find some out of the way LGS, find some particular shelf in that store, to see GW's models. GW stores are usually in a well traffic'd area in a shopping center or strip and usually near a food court (at least in Australia). With a big red and yellow lit up sign. It gets attention.
Even if people move to buying online after they got hooked at a store, it doesn't matter. Product is being sold. This is probably how GW wants it, just considering the size of most stores and the fact that they move some product off shelves after the codex/army book has been out for a while. I've recently been told quite a bit when looking for something (even a Space Marine product) to order it through their direct order terminal in the store or buy it online at home.
The stores don't really need to make money, they're there to attract a wider audience people so GW as a company makes money.
The problem with GW trying to McDonald's-ize their stores ios that they did not do what the big chains have done, own the land the stores are on, and maybe charge a franchise license to the managers running them, renting from a mall is costly.
Kanluwen wrote:I can already see exactly how badly that would go over. You'd have the Privateer Press Fanboys fighting the Games Workshop Fanboys in the store, mayhem everywhere!
But really: what else could they feasibly sell without paying their closest competitors?
Maybe they should stock FFG stuff?
Well for one and based on the fact expressed sometimes on dakka that many people enter the store looking for videogames because of the name ( gamesworkshop)... videogames ... board games... rpgs... card games and yes other companies miniatures, is see that as a smart move... ( hipotetic example) similar to seeing PS3 games publicity on xbox mags
Instead of hiding from the world and trying to convince people theres no alternatives how about profiting from alternatives? That would be fun to watch.
Kanluwen wrote:I can already see exactly how badly that would go over. You'd have the Privateer Press Fanboys fighting the Games Workshop Fanboys in the store, mayhem everywhere!
But really: what else could they feasibly sell without paying their closest competitors?
Maybe they should stock FFG stuff?
Well for one and based on the fact expressed sometimes on dakka that many people enter the store looking for videogames because of the name ( gamesworkshop)... videogames ... board games... rpgs... card games and yes other companies miniatures, is see that as a smart move... ( hipotetic example) similar to seeing PS3 games publicity on xbox mags
Instead of hiding from the world and trying to convince people theres no alternatives how about profiting from alternatives? That would be fun to watch.
+1. GW should try and include all the things mentioned above in their stores, but have it focus more on their products. Like, have WHFB/40k/LotRSBG in the big, well-lit front room, and then have all the other companies in the back, dark room. Also, have WotR in there.
I really cannot think of seeing a PS3 ad in an "official" Xbox Magazine.
At least not a PS3 'exclusive' game. Just like you didn't see ads for Halo or Gears of War in the PS3 magazines.
As for "profiting on the alternatives"...I don't see that happening. Privateer Press and the like wouldn't let GW get the stock for free, they'd be paying out the nose for it.
Kanluwen wrote:I really cannot think of seeing a PS3 ad in an "official" Xbox Magazine.
At least not a PS3 'exclusive' game. Just like you didn't see ads for Halo or Gears of War in the PS3 magazines.
As for "profiting on the alternatives"...I don't see that happening. Privateer Press and the like wouldn't let GW get the stock for free, they'd be paying out the nose for it.
You mean the normal wholesale price they charge other shops/chains.
Kanluwen wrote:I really cannot think of seeing a PS3 ad in an "official" Xbox Magazine.
At least not a PS3 'exclusive' game. Just like you didn't see ads for Halo or Gears of War in the PS3 magazines.
As for "profiting on the alternatives"...I don't see that happening. Privateer Press and the like wouldn't let GW get the stock for free, they'd be paying out the nose for it.
You mean the normal wholesale price they charge other shops/chains.
Yeah, right.
The other shops/chains aren't producing a product that's in direct competition with Privateer Press.
Personally, if this is true, I'll NEVER buy a resin model from them, so apparently no more blisters ever. I *loathe* working with the garbage called resin, from FW or other manufacturers. Metal's difficult, but at least it's SAFE and not ultra brittle trash. The money they think they're making by switching materials will be lost a hundred-fold in those who won't buy their resin crap. Go all plastic and they'll be fine, but resin? Cutting their own throat.
Defeatmyarmy wrote:Im calling it today: Resin kits for all new sets and $1 increase on paints(omg again?!) $5 increase on squad boxes $10 price increase on all larger boxes beginning with the release of 6th edition in December. Economy help us all...................
P.S. Im not psychic or associated in any way with any company so I hope Im wrong
You're about 9 months too early on your prediction month.
If this is true, is it really such a big deal? A lot of the appeal of metal models is this strange idea that they're somehow more 'serious'. Even now, many players profess to prefer metal models because of their weight. The fact is that metal wargaming models are impractical, fragile and easily chipped, and the only advantage that metal has over plastic is the higher level of detail possible - and with their recent plastics GW are narrowing that gap. Resin models would be just as detailed as metal ones, so there's no loss there. A few other thoughts:
- some of their current metal models will probably have to be re-done, since in my experience resin is hopeless for things like banner poles and other long, thin pieces (especially if they are weight-bearing). I'd guess most of their metal models can be cast in resin, as the moulding process is essentially the same.
- resin is hardly worse than the current pewter to work with. Personally, I hate working with metal figures - the material GW is using is difficult to cut and doesn't take superglue well. Good quality resin is far easier to work with, and resin has always been easier to paint than metal. It also chips less easily. On that point, FW's resin has improved markedly since they moved the casing to China - the last FW figures I bought (the new Grots) looked and felt like plastic. GW would presumably be intending to make use of that expertise.
- resin also weighs less than metal, so it will make the larger models more manageable.
- resin is, ultimately, another petroleum-based material, so there's no way there will be a price saving, and as the price of oil inevitably goes up, so will the prices. Somewhere along the line, GW will need an alternative to plastic.
There is but one resin and his name shall be accursed in the eyes of the peoples of citadel.
They heed not the call of false resins but clingeth to the resin of Forgeth World that is corrupted by the warp.
Therefore shall ye call all resin false, corrupted and a bugger to construct with the glue superbeth.
But still cling ye to the hope that the Metal White shall not be taken from us. Liveth in the hopes that pewter shall be eternally ours for it is incorruptable and goodly in the sight of fans.
Keep in mind that GW stores have drastically reduced the number of (metal) blisters for years. Almost all new blisters are of "limited availability" and move to direct order only after a few months. Reasoning behind this is that after the release month, almost noone buys metal blisters anyway. So a change of these few from metal to resin doesn't change much. Only in specific cases like Hive Guard and Eldar Elites will it be noted.
Asherian Command wrote:Is this really happening? Resin I have never worked with.
Harry has confirmed it, and he's one of two or three people that everybody agrees is "in the know" and is usually right. Resin isn't the nightmare that some people here are making it out to be. I'll miss pewter because I grew up with metal minis, and I proudly run my aptly named metal Steel Legion. Calling them "Resin Legion" doesn't have the same ring to it
Either way, it shouldn't make too much of a difference. Resin is still fairly heavy, but I think I'm right in assuming GW pewter is heavier.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think it'd be that complex to wash them at the factory. I'm picturing something along the lines of those little machines that wash jewlry - they're electronic and do it all without any human intervention (besides putting the jewelry into it and taking it out). Just imagine a batch of new models being finished, put into a big one of those for 20 minutes, and then taken out, left to dry for an hour, then packaged.
Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
It's hard to say which would be better, majority antimony metal special characters or brittle characters made of Satan's cocaine? Hmm...
I can see why the prices of metals have gone up so much too. The price of antimony has gone up quite a bit in the last year.
[pedant]Cost of materials is a direct cost [/pedant]
but either way, it doesn't help.
GW isued a statement in their last but one report that they wanted out of metals due to the volatility of metal prices.
DukeRustfield wrote:Just read the first page, but for the older gamers out there, models all used to be lead. In the 1980s there was a big fuss about the toxicity of lead and legislative action pretty much forced all manufacturers away from it. In America, if you can make a half-assed Save The Children argument, it will fly. Companies know this and thus won't do anything to bring out the angry mothers of doom.
The move from lead to pewter occurred in 1994-1995. A friend of mine who managed a big independent fantasy game store at the time told me it was sparked by a temporary moratorium on the sale of lead miniatures in the state of NY caused by a divorce case in which the wife cited her husband's lead models as a risk to their children. In other words, someone used the models to strike at their spouse in an angry divorce case. NY being one of the most populace and therefore viable markets for any corporation, the temporary ban on sales was a real blow to companies already in a niche market trying to get bigger. To avoid any further problems like that or even the chance of them occurring again GW, Grenadier, Ral Partha, etc. all went to pewter shortly thereafter and the price of all metal miniatures immediately jumped about 30% because the pewter alloy was much more expensive than lead even then.
The change to pewter occurred in the US first, then GW followed at their UK operation the next year. I bought a bunch of lead stuff on sale at US GW stores when it was being discontinued. When I visited the UK in summer 1995 they were still using lead, but not for much longer after that.
Stormrider wrote:Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
Stormrider wrote:Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
Fair enough. I was not aware of the drawbacks.
They're far from being too aggressive to be used on resin.
I've got a small ultrasonic cleaner, and I've yet to see it do anything potentially damaging to resin.
Now, maybe the industrial ones use a different frequency or cleaning solution(I've noticed that the liquid contents within the cleaner gets really hot, depending on how long it's left active)--but I can't see that being an over the top issue.
I've been a happy GW/40k fan since 1989 and have endured price-hike after price-hike. All I can say is if GW hikes their prices yet again to offset this resin thing(which I think is silly to begin with), that will be the end of my GW mini buying days.
You still aren't. I strongly suggest researching this factoid for yourself before forming an opinion. Not trying to condescend, HBMC, but accepting that wholesale may not be the best route.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stormrider wrote:Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
Seems an unlikely road for a conservative company like go down. Not only does a large percentage of the market not like resin one but at all but the retooling costs would be very expensive and I don't think they would be saving all that much money anyway.
A normal sized 28mm miniature will cost you about $0.67 per miniature to have cast up (obviously this depends on the actual bulk and size of the miniature). And this price is not at anywhere near the bulk that GW would do. So there price would be significantly lower. Seems an unlikely step to take just to save some pennies later down the road.
And now Warseer is not loading..... perhaps it is true and GW took them out. The plot thickens.
Bell of lost souls pg 1 is up and running still......Yes the truth hurts is still working too and so is bloodofkittens but they dont have any posts about resin. It seems warseer was hit hardest with a site beheading....
My heart sank: I felt like I'd been just been told that I had an incurable disease of some sort. I had just been given the latest price for the tin alloy we use to cast the models in. remember whewn I did that last price rise in September because metal had risen so much I could no longer afford to absorb the increase? Well, since then, it's gone up another 37%. In fact, it's done 30% of that in the last three months alone. It's insane. The price of 50kgs of metal is now more than my Ford Focus and Craig's 125cc motorbike are worth if you add them together!
(dated 14th March 2011) GW stated in the last but one annual report that due to the volatility of metal prices they would be shifting production as much as possible from metals.
As much as GW wind me up with silliness at times, banner hacking? Not only does it seem highly implausible, isn't just a tad off topic?
Kanluwen wrote:I really cannot think of seeing a PS3 ad in an "official" Xbox Magazine.
At least not a PS3 'exclusive' game. Just like you didn't see ads for Halo or Gears of War in the PS3 magazines.
As for "profiting on the alternatives"...I don't see that happening. Privateer Press and the like wouldn't let GW get the stock for free, they'd be paying out the nose for it.
It's the business model that turned GW from two guys in a shed into the world's largest miniature wargame company.
Stormrider wrote:Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
Fair enough. I was not aware of the drawbacks.
They're far from being too aggressive to be used on resin.
I've got a small ultrasonic cleaner, and I've yet to see it do anything potentially damaging to resin.
Now, maybe the industrial ones use a different frequency or cleaning solution(I've noticed that the liquid contents within the cleaner gets really hot, depending on how long it's left active)--but I can't see that being an over the top issue.
This.
I use a small cleaner from JayCar with tap water + detergent.
Completely loosened paint from poorly painted metal minis, and began flaking paint from Eldar Guardians (plastic) after 7min... neither minis nor water warmed considerably.
Resin's drawback could be the sub-surface airbubbles... but I have cleaned FW parts in this way and experienced negative side-effects.
TBH, I hope that the switch only particular minis to resin, while keepng metal versions of others. Yet, when GW does such a good job of the plastics, I do not see why resin is required.
It seems to me a tad illogical for GW to retool all their metal minis to resin when they have stated their ultimate aim is to have all plastic range (sure i read that somewere). Would it make more sense for them to be retooling to plastic, the only evidence there is is a rumour about GW courting a chemical supplier which are quite likely to supply raw materials for plastic minis as well. Please correct me if ive missed something i have been following thread sporadically and may have missed something.
Ugh.. I've seen some severely off centerline bolt pistols come off of a lot of marine sprues. They really do need to get their plastic models at least better quality controlled. If this happens I expect the price on pewter models on eBay to go up.
A bit off-topic, but i just got a message from chrome that 'this page contains content from Warseer, a site known to distribute malware...' uh, is this normal? I proceeded anyway putting trust into my security software.
They'll need better quality control on this new resin stuff thatn the level Forgeworld frequently display. Maybe it'll mean more production in China or something.
People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.
+1 Current GW are going to stick to their extraordinary pricing path.
If a tonne of metal has the potential to form 50000 average sized figures how many lead figures do GW currently sell yearly?
I'm thinking that this isn't millions.
Even taking a figure of a million metal figures sold that's £400,000 spent for Metal alone.
What's rawPE resin these days? around £2700 per tonne £3000? £120K for the same tonnage ( yield per tonne would be different).
GW would make savings less, tooling etc, but they still are not addressing the main issues. This margin stretch isn't going to turn their stagnant sales around.
Unless they use that plasticy-resin that pirvateer press use. It's like 'hard plastic' as opposed to resin. So its tough and castable but you can use poly cement on it AFAIK.
Also if they put up the price for using a cheaper material they can GTFO
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Notice on Heresy website re the price of tin.
It's the little people like Heresy that I feel the most sorry for. Ever-rising materials costs will eventually extinguish them, one by one.
Yep, how are the smaller outfits coping with these price rises, can they easily switch to resin? if they do then I think their will be wildly differing qualities coming out.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.
+1 Current GW are going to stick to their extraordinary pricing path.
If a tonne of metal has the potential to form 50000 average sized figures how many lead figures do GW currently sell yearly?
I'm thinking that this isn't millions.
Even taking a figure of a million metal figures sold that's £400,000 spent for Metal alone.
What's rawPE resin these days? around £2700 per tonne £3000? £120K for the same tonnage ( yield per tonne would be different).
GW would make savings less, tooling etc, but they still are not addressing the main issues. This margin stretch isn't going to turn their stagnant sales around.
And it assumes no backlash with people not wanting to buy resin, or that the quality control is poor that puts people off buying. I recall when they stopped using lead they went through a period where the quality was a bit dodgy. There seemed to be more miscasts around until they perfected the alloy mixes and temperatures required. Seems a big gamble for GW, if people lose confidence in the product they could lose a lot of sales on blisterpacked figures.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.
+1 Current GW are going to stick to their extraordinary pricing path.
If a tonne of metal has the potential to form 50000 average sized figures how many lead figures do GW currently sell yearly?
I'm thinking that this isn't millions.
Even taking a figure of a million metal figures sold that's £400,000 spent for Metal alone.
What's rawPE resin these days? around £2700 per tonne £3000? £120K for the same tonnage ( yield per tonne would be different).
GW would make savings less, tooling etc, but they still are not addressing the main issues. This margin stretch isn't going to turn their stagnant sales around.
And it assumes no backlash with people not wanting to buy resin, or that the quality control is poor that puts people off buying. I recall when they stopped using lead they went through a period where the quality was a bit dodgy. There seemed to be more miscasts around until they perfected the alloy mixes and temperatures required. Seems a big gamble for GW, if people lose confidence in the product they could lose a lot of sales on blisterpacked figures.
Ah yes, I forgot about that, brittle figures, misshapen lumps etc.
I reckon GW could consolidate a lot of the current metal kits into plastic if they were a bit clever about the setup of the sprue frame.
For example, the current Tyranid Elite models are all metal--Venomthrope, Zoanthrope and Hive Guard. These are weighty chunks, difficult to assemble and somewhat unwieldy on the table being very top heavy (except the Hive Guard).
Surely these models could have been produced in a single sprue frame, which would be split into three or four sections to be packed into boxes.
Similarly, the Tau Pathfinders could easily be put into a frame. If you include the Shas'ui and the rail rifle models, there are I think eight different poses. Add a few accessories and a couple of drones to make up the numbers. If it isn't economical, make a frame with five different Pathfinders and the Sniper Drone set, then split it for packaging.
Stormrider wrote:Ultrasonic cleaners are a bit self destructive (they vibrate themselves apart eventually). Also they're probably a bit too aggressive to be used on something like resin.
Fair enough. I was not aware of the drawbacks.
They're far from being too aggressive to be used on resin.
I've got a small ultrasonic cleaner, and I've yet to see it do anything potentially damaging to resin.
Now, maybe the industrial ones use a different frequency or cleaning solution(I've noticed that the liquid contents within the cleaner gets really hot, depending on how long it's left active)--but I can't see that being an over the top issue.
The ones used for stripping rust from automotive parts are too powerful. The jewellery cleaning ones are just fine.
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Mr. Burning wrote:What's rawPE resin these days? around £2700 per tonne £3000? £120K for the same tonnage ( yield per tonne would be different).
Yield per tonne would be many times greater - a tonne of resin is a hugely greater volume than a tonne of tin.
Kanluwen wrote:I really cannot think of seeing a PS3 ad in an "official" Xbox Magazine.
At least not a PS3 'exclusive' game. Just like you didn't see ads for Halo or Gears of War in the PS3 magazines.
As for "profiting on the alternatives"...I don't see that happening. Privateer Press and the like wouldn't let GW get the stock for free, they'd be paying out the nose for it.
You cannot think of seeing my Hipotetic example? Forget the specific example then and you will notice that its a publicity model employed in many many industries and its not even the most aggressive method of publicity... As for the specific example yes I have seen in a independent PS3 mag xbox adds and vice versa... and even on the official PS3 mags I have seen adds to mags of xbox and its not the end of the world... I mean if publicity space is for sale the least a competent biz can do is try to buy it... sometimes you cant but sometimes you can...
You dont see GW get the stock for free? well neither can I see anyone getting free stock... duh
It would never happen but the idea is to bring back the Hobby and the hobby people to the stores and that will never happen if they exclude everything its not GW... Its a store model that would bring back sales, the more you offer the more you satisfy clients... gw does not have the deapth to cope with so many stores.
And any business man with a brain would very much like to sell their minis on GW net of stores so I dont know if I share your opinion on this.
But its all a bit offtopic.
Resin has advantages and disadvantages like metal or plastics have... its a bit of a personal taste I guess... In small average 28mm miniatures metal so far has been the most affordable way to cast loads of copies and resin everywere is always more expensive... But we are talking a completely diferent volume of miniatures in GW so they may have crunched some numbers and found out a cheaper way... just dont espect to save something on small 28mm minis, the way I see it small minis will price rise and bigger ones will probably stay the same price. But thats just me guessing.
One little note, for someone witout GW in their country, with GWUK charging a load of money to ship to your country its a nightmare to buy the exclusive direct only stuff... good for them they have excluded themselves from independent stores and from the market... no wonder the sales are not stellar... one thing is having one big speciall exclisve monster or model or collectors range another thing is full ranges of necessary heroes or units for your freaking army of tokens... Bah
Kilkrazy wrote:For example, the current Tyranid Elite models are all metal--Venomthrope, Zoanthrope and Hive Guard. These are weighty chunks, difficult to assemble and somewhat unwieldy on the table being very top heavy (except the Hive Guard).
Ha-ha, I have a very top-heavy Hive Guard model that still falls over, even after I filled the base with air clay and glued a load of slate on the top of the base. :( Bring on the plasticy-resiny stuff, I say (as long as it doesn't come with price rises).
Depending on the quaility of resin casts that GW would produce, I think this could be a step forward, I have always hated metail models due to their tendancy to chip and fall apart without proper care.
There are already a couple of resin products by GW, the urban ruins for one, though I have never seen what they look like in person.
Scottywan82 wrote:Well, your Tyranid idea also posits that the consolidated models are sold in equal increments, which isn't really true...
I am making a general case roughly illustrated with a simple example.
None of us know the GW sales figures but they do.
I imagine they sell more Hive Guard than Zoanthropes, and more Zoanthropes than Venomthropes, reflecting the units' effectiveness in combat.
Knowing this in advance, they could adjust the mix of models as required to rationalise production to be most efficient.
Of course all this assumes that GW have some concept of market awareness and planning. Judging their failure to launch kits for the Mycetic Spore and Tervigon, this may be too much to expect.
(feth it, they've only had 30 years experience at this, after all.)
If metal prices are excessive, it could be worthwhile to waste a certain proportion of your plastic production to get the costs down on the other models in the mixture. In other words, make your Tyranid elite models in the ratio 2:1:1 even if you sell them in the ratio 3:2:1, and throw away the spare Venomthropes.
This would depend on the overall production costs including mould making, materials, splitting, and throwing away costs.
Kilkrazy wrote:For example, the current Tyranid Elite models are all metal--Venomthrope, Zoanthrope and Hive Guard. These are weighty chunks, difficult to assemble and somewhat unwieldy on the table being very top heavy (except the Hive Guard).
Ha-ha, I have a very top-heavy Hive Guard model that still falls over, even after I filled the base with air clay and glued a load of slate on the top of the base. :( Bring on the plasticy-resiny stuff, I say (as long as it doesn't come with price rises).
I put my Hive Guards on 60mm bases to stop toppling, and mine are all plastic converted from Raveners.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic, here are some real world weights of models which I worked out by weighing models
Rouge Trader era SMs in metal = 25.666g
Rouge Trader era plastic Beakies = 7.4g each including filled base. Maybe 6g including the base?
Studio McVey limited resin character models = 2.666g each (only three measured) without bases. I have to point out that the margin of error of my electronic scales is 2g.
Antenociti's Workshop's Governance of Technology 28mm SF in metal = 10g (estimate on 8 figures still in blisters with bases)
Heresy figures are a similar size to GoT/Studio McVey/Hasslefree/MERCS/Infinity. I have some of these around but can't lay hands on them ATM.
My educated guess is that 10g is a reasonable working estimate for the amount of metal in a standard 28mm figure.
Polystyrene injection moulding is beyond the capability of a small, garage based company like Heresy or Hasslefree. While you can certainly commission moulds and production from industrial moulding firms, the cost of moulds and set up is excessive unless you plan to produce a large number of figures.
Metal and resin can be done in your kitchen with very basic equipment. If you want to produce complex castings reliably, you'll need spin-casting (for metal) or vacuum chamber equipment (for resin).
Metal, while more expensive, has the advantage that scrap can be recycled and equipment can be cleaned more easily. It's also chemically safer.
Ties up with the rumour from a while back that GW were investing in resin injectiony stuff (which I think was confirmed here earlier. Not sure. TL/DR)
Also ties in with what a little bird told me, namely that Blisters in general will be disappearing from stores rather soon. Indeed, I'm under the impression that they just won't be replenishing stock as it sells through. Anything in a blister for a new release (new army etc) will be splashed in stores, before going direct only.
I just weighed a bunch of Heresy and Hasslefree models. They work out to 7.7g each on average. (26 models weighed -- it has been a pretty exciting Sunday...)
Assuming 8g per figure, and 10% wastage, you should get over 112,000 figures out of a tonne of alloy.
If the alloy costs $35,000 per tonne, you are looking at 31 cents of metal per figure, which is about 19 pence.
That assumes you buy metal in large quantities, of course, which GW can do. Small companies like Heresy and Hasslefree no doubt pay more for their alloy because they buy it in small amounts.
The disappearing blisters fit with the concept of the shop being a promotion tool primarily rather than a sales location.
You hook the punters in with the shiney, ready painted armies, games being played, and sell them a couple of boxed sets.
If they ask for the more specialist items, you order the stuff on line for delivery next week or direct to the customer's home.
If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff
Clipping parts off the sprues will add to production costs and frankly I would rather do it myself rather than someone else or a machine.
Also means having small parts rattling around loose in the box (presumably in a bag)
Also this would possibly increase the risk of missing parts.
It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.
At least on the busier sprues, it's really, really easy to not spot missing parts.
However, I would think that removing the parts from sprues would only be feasible if it could be automated. Some sort of robotic laser-cutter machine that would tzap the parts off the sprue, drop them into a bag and send them on their way would do the trick... with a weigh-in somewhere down the line to catch bags that are missing parts.
I don't really get the resin hate, to be honest. Saying 'resin is bad' is sort of like saying that apples are red. There are a lot of different types of resin. That types commonly used for miniatures are generally chosen for particular attributes (most commonly detail being the most pressing factor, even where this results in less than brilliant durability) but they're not the only options available.
Ultimately, it's all plastic... and plastic technology is a constantly evolving field.
Passed this rumor along in the FLGS today, and shocked some people . Don't make me eat my words, Dakka! Here's hoping it's legitimate, I find it kind of exciting...
I know from first hand experience with scale aircraft kits it is easier to spot an empty parts position that sort out through a bag and check against the parts location diagram in the instructions!
But maybe where I could see a benefit is the blisters which don't have a lot of parts. If that is what Grey Templar meant then an ability to make a clean dust product would be useful.
Not having had any resin gaming pieces am unsure whether figures come prepared in such a way tbh.
Again, it seems like a relatively large investment in terms of benefits. But who knows. GW (or was it FW) have already set up plant in Singapore iirc so maybe that investment has happened?
Grey Templar wrote:when GW used to do all metal models they had them in individual sections in the boxs.
similer to the metal squad boxs like Sternguard, Honor Guard, and large multi-part metal models.
perhaps GW could leave them on the sprue for quality control and then snip the sprue off in sections to save some clippings.
Hiring people to snip the sprue off adds a lot to labor cost, especially if they're snipping specific places like you suggest. It wouldn't be worth it.
Grey Templar wrote:I sometimes wonder why GW doesn't send clip their plastic off the sprues and just have the actual models in the box.
would save on shipping costs and would allow them to reclycle the sprues. possably being cheaper.
It is a lot of work to cut the sprues, and the parts could get damaged by rattling around. Also it is more expensive to engrave a part number on the inside of every part than to put a tab on the sprue. (Not that GW bother to ID their parts.)
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Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff
I do weight nearly all my bases, but when a model is a front heavy as this...
Kilkrazy wrote:It is a lot of work to cut the sprues, and the parts could get damaged by rattling around. Also it is more expensive to engrave a part number on the inside of every part than to put a tab on the sprue. (Not that GW bother to ID their parts.)
My GW plastic has labels (9A 9A 9B type stuff) on the sprue, what they can't be arsed to do is make the key available to the customer.
You do realise why they are labled? Arm 9A is designed to go with body 3A, for example. If you had the bits loose, it would be a nightmare to assemble.
Howard A Treesong wrote:They'll need better quality control on this new resin stuff thatn the level Forgeworld frequently display. Maybe it'll mean more production in China or something.
People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.
Howard is on the money.
I still believe that GW is under-valuing the AUD.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Clipping parts off the sprues will add to production costs and frankly I would rather do it myself rather than someone else or a machine.
Also means having small parts rattling around loose in the box (presumably in a bag)
Also this would possibly increase the risk of missing parts.
It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.
On he timmy 12 year old thing what about the timmy 8 year old thing?
my little brother started when he was 8 and although he is now 9 soon to be 10 in a few weeks i have nasty visions of him working with RESIN .
think about this. my little brother runs into GW with his money clutched in his hand. he grabs the night goblin shaman on giant squig that hes wanted for ages.
he pays for it and gets home ripping the packaging open a grin of excitement on his face.
then he stops.
he frowns.
his grin fades.
and he comes hurtling into my room were i am diligently working on something(or alternatively has our mum phone me if im in Harlequinns GW or the Harris library).
i stop what i am doing and come rushing to his aid and i to stare horrifide by what i see before me.
A RESIN KIT!!!!!!!!!
well of course i help him with it and it does get built. but it is fragile and when he next goes to play it in a game lets say he drops it.
and it breaks.
his precious model shatters.
he runs to it as fat tears roll down his face.
his precious figure which he has put days of work into painting as best he can lovingly picking out the detail and maybe even trying out some free hand on is no more.
if GW goes over to resin then i WILL sacrifice all thoes whom forwarded and suggested it to the CHAOS GODS (unless theirs some Hot girls in which case i WILL drink their blood)
metal IS fine.
it WORKS
WHY CHANGE?
Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff
You could buy base weights from impact miniatures, they only come in 25mm and delivery is slow atm due to what sounds like a power stuggle in the company.
If the resin is as good as what's in the Tau XV9 kit, then i'm OK with this. It might be a better idea for replacing bigger bulkier metal kits, 40mm base and up. I could imagine the Incubus set, amongst other things, being a brittle nightmare if it were resin. Better stock up on metal ones!
A lot of wargame models are labelled "Unsuitable for children under 12 years".
Obviously parents can choose to let younger children have them, but there wouldn't be much chance of a come-back if something went wrong.
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Bonegrinder wrote:
Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff
You could buy base weights from impact miniatures, they only come in 25mm and delivery is slow atm due to what sounds like a power stuggle in the company.
Lead shot ballast is the best. It's much cheaper than fishing line weights.
didn't GW profess that their material costs (i.e. the price of metal and plastic) are very insignificant to their bottom line while bragging about their company's prospects in the investor letter a few years back? of course, when they needed a scape goat for a price increase, they cited rising material costs as the "reason".
Next person to complain that resin is fragile and gets brokkan easy please refer to earlier posts and videos showing it isn't always so.
You will then be summarily executed by being beaten to death with non fragile bendy plastic resins.
thank you.
Despite cheaper labour costs in China at present, don't see how shipping the goods half way around the world is going to have any savings.
The sprue weight is not going to be that significant, especially in buildings kits.
I can see GW not wanting us to have sprue in an attempt to stop people making their own terrain and movement trays, the fiends!
I havent read every single post on here but it seems to me that RESIN is getting platered with a big general brush. GW kits are platic/metal, there are more than one form of plastic and metal... just as there are many forms of resin, it isnt just a single thing.
My Tau suit (XV9 close support hazard thingy) is a very nice material to work with, it feels a slightly different resin material to my other FW models (just for comparisons sake).
I see the health issues and warning etc, but 10 years ago (when i was 9) when i first got into the game, i vividly remember slicing my finger open on a horribly sharp bit of flash from a pewter model... Its a careful balancing act if they switch to resin, but i dont think resin deserves half as much hate as its getting.
XV9 ( I have one) is the kind of model that resin is ok for it... no slim fragile parts just big chunks... the problem starts when minis get slimmer and smaller.
Yes there's several kinds of resins and they have been debated some posts above...
This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.
Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.
Those are very good questions. A ton of GW's product is made in China these days including the figure cases, army cases, paints and washes, large scenery kits like the Temple of Skulls, resin barricades and of course most infamously, the Codex books for which the inferior binding issues began as soon as they went with the current binder starting with the Dark Elf book. A lot of GW stock coming in the stores now says GW Shanghai on the shipping containers. Some insight into the working conditions of their production operations in China would be interesting.
Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.
I don't think it is right either, but odds are a massive amount of stuff you own/buy/use was made in China.
Shanghai, really? That's probably a factory in the Export Processing Zone there... i.e. sweatshop central. :(
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Ouroborus wrote:I don't think it is right either, but odds are a massive amount of stuff you own/buy/use was made in China.
Yeah, I am pretty much determined to no longer contribute economically when that's unethical, though (I've no objection to Chinese-made goods if the factories are not sweatshops). This has meant a significant alteration in my buying habits...
Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.
GW will close the last Chinese production site this year, because child labor got so damn expensive . All paints will be done in UK again. Doesn't rule out outsourcing though.
Oh, and no, GW has no idea of what ethical policy means
col. krazy kenny wrote:GW CHina,no wonder so much of it is on Ebay,probably stolen by employees.Hence why it is so cheap.
Oh hell no.) They don't steal product, they steal the molds, greens, and everything else.)
The factories in china have no problem at all running off product for GW, then running product for people in China that want to sell it on ebay with only the cost of materials. It's not just an employee grabbing a few models, its the factory owner making thousands of models, and openly selling them to ebay sellers. Look at places like 'Dragon Painting Service'. Go into their feedback and look at what they sell. Thousands of chaos trolls, maiden guard, and other metal models. Painting them disguises the bootleg nature, but if you wanted 200 maiden guard, they'd have no problem running some off and shipping them out.
Specific factory owners and their complicit workers also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?
And yes, until the majority do something about the criminal minority - all are complicit. If you know about it and do nothing, you are an accessory to the crime.
Edited for clarity and lack of telepathic ability to enforce understanding in minds that just want to see prejudice.
col. krazy kenny wrote:GW CHina,no wonder so much of it is on Ebay,probably stolen by employees.Hence why it is so cheap.
Oh hell no.) They don't steal product, they steal the molds, greens, and everything else.)
The factories in china have no problem at all running off product for GW, then running product for people in China that want to sell it on ebay with only the cost of materials. It's not just an employee grabbing a few models, its the factory owner making thousands of models, and openly selling them to ebay sellers. Look at places like 'Dragon Painting Service'. Go into their feedback and look at what they sell. Thousands of chaos trolls, maiden guard, and other metal models. Painting them disguises the bootleg nature, but if you wanted 200 maiden guard, they'd have no problem running some off and shipping them out.
And if you venture into china they will strip you butt nakid and sell your clothes on ebay also Even a couple weeks ago some AAA batteries from SOMY was on sale at a store here... IF they even reached Portugal it means they are everywere... Man the world is upside down... but we can only blame greed I guess.
Resin, I have never messed with resin before but I do not understand why they could not move all their models to the current plastic sets they are using now (is it only because of gas prices)? And about the China production...not sure what to think or feel about that.
VoidAngel wrote:They also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?
What the hellllll! Its not vacations days... its children chained, beaten up, starving to death working everyday etc...
People and their own bellybuttons
VoidAngel wrote:They also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?
You should worry about both. There is no "they" as in everyone in China. The same specific people who own the factories and who don't care about selling hazardous waste to Americans also don't care about letting people work around it in their factories for 18 hours days and no time off. The workers and the end users are both being victimized by the same exploitative people running the show. As in the US, there are specific people responsible for that kind of behavior. Lumping everyone in China into that imaginary "they" is not only ridiculous, it's not a useful way of solving the problem.
I can see where this thread is going now. Somewhere a MOD is preparing another thread lock to stem the tide of uneducated gross generalizations and angry offensive rants.
Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.
Sadly, the factors you describe are the reasons so many manufacturers go overseas, and hence the reason why the prices are so low. To be honest I'm amazed the production in the UK has lasted for so long as it is, seeing as the UK government does absolutely nothing to try and protect it's industries.
Now that everything is centred around providing for the share holders, if that means it needs to lay off a bunch of workers and close the UK factory (perhaps the US one also) and move the company to a sweatshop, even if it just makes them an extra 5% they will do it.
Although, even if it is somewhat inevitable, if it does happen I think a lot less people will be worried if GW falls on its arse or will certainly have a lot less sympathy if it does. I worked in a call centre as a student that decided to up shop and move it's entire operation to India. In the end the company folded when, amongst the myriad of technical problems which meant that people couldn't actually talk on the phone, the local mafia had moved in and were running a brothel from the call centre, and then finally there was an outbreak of cholera in the 'office'.
1) Production time for resin will always be longer than for metal. Metal just has to cool off while resin has to cure in a chemical reaction. The question is if the material costs can offset the longer cycle time. (seems doubtful to me) they'll also have to buy more machines to keep the same level of production (unless they have a lot of extra capacity now)
2) There was some discussion about removing the parts from the sprue. Most companies who do injection molding and most injection molded parts are desprued as part of the molding process. (The sprues are cut in the mold itself) I suspect the sprues are left on GW products as a convenient organizational and handling feature.
People often do jobs that they know are killing them, their families and maybe their customers because of fear of not being able to eat or feed their families due to lack of alternative means of income. While it does make them complicit in a way, they are not the problem. Those same problems existed and still exist in certain industries in the western world as well. That's why there are regulations that try, not always successfully, to prevent unsafe conditions. Condemning the factory workers in China is like condemning the coal miners who died in the US last year. It's up to the employers to ensure ethical and safe materials and conditions. Where workers have no rights then nothing will improve for them or the customers or the people living near the pollution created by those same unsafe manufacturing processes.
I respectfully disagree. When you stuff a plush bunny meant for someone else's infant with something you wear thick gloves and mask to handle, and wouldn't let your own kid within 10' of...you are making a reprehensible moral choice for which you should be held accountable. I couldn't go home to my kids knowing that I'd put someone else's at risk in order to collect a paycheck.
@Killkrazy - yep, but I'm not suggesting that a worker commit such an elaborate suicide. I *assume* they have the option of quitting and finding a different job if the options are murder-by-proxy or execution/persecution.
VoidAngel wrote:I respectfully disagree. When you stuff a plush bunny meant for someone else's infant with something you wear thick gloves and mask to handle, and wouldn't let your own kid within 10' of...you are making a reprehensible moral choice for which you should be held accountable. I couldn't go home to my kids knowing that I'd put someone else's at risk in order to collect a paycheck.
You might think otherwise if it was the only way you could feed your own children. People do amazing things under that kind of pressure. History, even recent history, is full of such sadness.
@BS (ironic, that) - equating breaking the stranglehold of parasitic and too-powerful unions in America, and Chinese totalitarianism is more than a little dishonest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nope - no chance I'd think differently. I would not kill your kids to feed mine. I'd move. I'd go on welfare. I'd flip burgers - but I WOULD NOT knowingly endanger someone else for my own easy prosperity.
Taking away the right of workers to have a say over the conditions under which they work leads to bad things for everyone but the people making money at the top. That's why we had sweatshops in the US and the UK just a century ago before workers had any rights to decent wages, time off, safe conditions at the factory, etc. We're marching backwards and not just in China.
We also didn't have OSHA, and legions of lawyers ready to help anyone sue any company over any damn thing. Today, we do. Unions today do not serve the noble purpose they once did.
VoidAngel wrote:We also didn't have OSHA, and legions of lawyers ready to help anyone sue any company over any damn thing. Today, we do. Unions today do not serve the noble purpose they once did.
In some cases they do. In other cases they don't. This is a strong misconception, IMO. As someone who is working under a union for the first time, I can say that I don't get anything that would be considered unfair.
Void Angel you are condemning chinese workers and assume they have the option to choose or to move... The workers many times are children, they dont have a saying in anything, or option and they surely do not even have access to gloves and masks to handle plush bunnies... those kids and workers are the first victims of greedy corps and you seem to not understand that...
Your idea of moving away, choosing work etc are the perspective of someone who enjoys freedom of choice... they do not have your luxury... I advice you to dig what happens to many chinese baby girls or other related issues before posting your totally uninformed opinion.
And I will not post anymore concerning this matter since its offtopic.
NAVARRO wrote:Void Angel you are condemning chinese workers and assume they have the option to choose or to move... The workers many times are children, they dont have a saying in anything, or option and they surely do not even have access to gloves and masks to handle plush bunnies... those kids and workers are the first victims of greedy corps and you seem to not understand that...
Your idea of moving away, choosing work etc are the perspective of someone who enjoys freedom of choice... they do not have your luxury... I advice you to dig what happens to many chinese baby girls or other related issues before posting your totally uninformed opinion.
And I will not post anymore concerning this matter since its offtopic.
May I direct your eyes to the following words from my previous post: " I *assume* they have the option of quitting and finding a different job..."
Kids not understanding or having the ability to make a choice - I understand. You seem to think that my primary desire is to blame the rank-and-file worker - it is not. Nor do I hold them harmless, as you and others seem to wish to. My opinion is more informed than you allow, though I claim no expertise (hence my statement of *assumption* above).
It may be off-topic, but so what? We're having a conversation. Conversations sometimes wander temporarily, it's not the end of the world. I read that as an an excuse covering your unwillingness to even hear my thoughts further because you disagree.
To sum up: There are degrees of guilt here, certainly - but lesser guilt does not innocence make.
This thread IS getting off-topic. If you'd like to start a thread about labor conditions, political backlash and profit-mongering, please start a thread in the OT Forum.
We're only here to talk about the possible replacement of metal with resin by GW.
I received my Studio McVey models today, including one Dino Girl (resin) and five of the new SF models done in metal.
Weights as follows...
Lt Karla Black = 10g
Medic guy = 14g
Big gun guy = 25g (He is about the size of an SM)
Trooper girl = 9g
Sniper girl = 8g
Average = 9.2g
Based on all the figures so far, the non-GW models are typically 8 to 10g each.
GW's models of course are much larger than standard 28mm, and would contain a lot more metal.
On the issue of detail, these Studio McVey models are astonishingly good. Of course they are expensive figures, costing as much as the cheaper GW character models, so you would expect them to be good.
Personally I don't rate GW's figures as particularly good on detail, considering how large they are compared to standard 28mm.
Personally I don't rate GW's figures as particularly good on detail, considering how large they are compared to standard 28mm.
Have to agree with you, the lack of details for one and also the inferior miniature design is even more noticeable when you collect other stuff... theres more detail in say a 28mm infinity mini than on a 50mm or more GW mini... and lets not even go to old rackham metals... The difference is really big yet the prices are not.
I really hpe this shifting to resin means more quality, detail and better design... and not meshed melting detail or quality control issues.
VoidAngel wrote:They also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?
What the hellllll! Its not vacations days... its children chained, beaten up, starving to death working everyday etc...
People and their own bellybuttons
I personally welcome more child labor. It keeps prices down, controls uppity unions in this country but more importantly those little fingers are more adept at dealing with small parts. There are so many children in China that if you lose one or two in indistrial accidents that picking up a few replacements is quite easy. Seems like a total win all round to me.
I personally welcome more child labor. It keeps prices down, controls uppity unions in this country but more importantly those little fingers are more adept at dealing with small parts. There are so many children in China that if you lose one or two in indistrial accidents that picking up a few replacements is quite easy. Seems like a total win all round to me.
I personally welcome more child labor. It keeps prices down, controls uppity unions in this country but more importantly those little fingers are more adept at dealing with small parts. There are so many children in China that if you lose one or two in indistrial accidents that picking up a few replacements is quite easy. Seems like a total win all round to me.
I hope it's a joke (a bad joke).
Satire, my friend, satire. There is a big difference between a joke and satire.
Friends we must not speak about the ethical implications of our hobby because the moderators feel the need to use misogyny in expressing their displeasure in such discussions.
Having bought several Lightnings from Forgeworld, which is a more-than-$100 model, and having seen the horrendous lack of quality in mold lines from poor fits and huge globs of excess resin that completley obscure the surrounding details and need to be, literally, sliced from the model, I shudder at the thought of significant GW production under similar processes and QA.
Say what you will about GW but they are very good about replacing defective items. I doubt they would go with a substandard process and deal with the constant complaints and replacements it would entail.
TheHammer wrote:Friends we must not speak about the ethical implications of our hobby because the moderators feel the need to use misogyny in expressing their displeasure in such discussions.
Or its a very clever reference to child labour in Asia, used as a redirection tool...
On topic: So the problem with resin is not the resin itself, but the quality of the casting...which comes down to terrible quality control and a lack of respect for the customer.
mikhaila wrote:... Look at places like 'Dragon Painting Service'. Go into their feedback and look at what they sell. Thousands of chaos trolls, maiden guard, and other metal models. Painting them disguises the bootleg nature, but if you wanted 200 maiden guard, they'd have no problem running some off and shipping them out.
Considering the prices that they charge, I am not totally convinced of their unofficial nature.
sourclams wrote:Having bought several Lightnings from Forgeworld, which is a more-than-$100 model, and having seen the horrendous lack of quality in mold lines from poor fits and huge globs of excess resin that completley obscure the surrounding details and need to be, literally, sliced from the model, I shudder at the thought of significant GW production under similar processes and QA.
Having bought plenty of FW stuff and GW plastics I say that my experience with their quality is about the same. For the most part its good though GW needs to ploish up their Rhino mold as several of my newer Rhino chassis' don't fit together well anymore. I've bought the FW Keeper of Secrets ( a very fine model though terribly delicate especially when bull rushed by cats), a bunch of Raven Guard SM upgrade kits, several doors for Rhinos and Land Raiders, as well as 2 Repressors for my Sisters. They have all been good quality. I guess it just depends on what you get. certainly there is a bit of flashing and soem mold lines that need to be trimmed but thats true of every plastic GW model I have bought to date as well as plenty of the metal ones. Actually those older metals are crappy shape.
If you want to talk about evil Chinese workers poisoning your children's fluffy rabbits, though, please start an entirely different thread somewhere else!
I doubt GWs resin will be as potentially fail as forge worlds is. I mean if you buy in a store you can SEE the model in question in its blister usually, so you just choose the best looking one!
I hate metal personally. Its sharp, has fethloads of flash, is almost impossible to cut, its just horrible!
Metal cuts just like plastic. You can even cut it with a regular hobby knife using an older blade if you're extra paranoid. I really don't understand that complaint. I haven't liked resin whenever I've messed with it but I'm curious to see what kind they'd use. I already basically never buy direct if at all so it won't really affect me tons.
Jaon wrote:I doubt GWs resin will be as potentially fail as forge worlds is. I mean if you buy in a store you can SEE the model in question in its blister usually, so you just choose the best looking one!
I hate metal personally. Its sharp, has fethloads of flash, is almost impossible to cut, its just horrible!
Wouldnt we be able to pose resin?
Not every company has flash on their metals, some have sooooooo tiny mould lines that you have to look very carefully just to find them... so its more a casting problem and quality control issue than the actual material.
my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child(like my little brother)gets his new kit he wants to assemble it. ok youve saidresin can be strong but what about the weaker stuff. and those tiny little fiddly bits like staffs and the such like. i mean lets face it a child isnt going to be to gentle are they. they arnt going to be to delicate. and resin from what i can tell is quite hard to repair. why cant gw just move to plastic kits for blisters instead as this would simplify things alot as well as meaning that kits were easyer to convert and repair. also plastic glue would be all that you really needed thus making the hobby safer for smaller children as superglue can be extremly dangerous.
i dont want to sound like im going on but even i can see the problems here and im only 16+2/3.
Again, some resins behave just like plastic and the thin parts bend instead of breaking...
It should be clear to all that... metal has differentt degrees of elasticity and resistance, and so does plastics ( remember the GW plastic batch that would break very easy instead of bending?) and ultimately also resins... some are fragile and some are resistant...
I would be sad to see metal models go. They have been the preferred material for toy soldiers for hundreds of years.
Not to drum up the ethics discussion again, but would a move to resin be worse for the environment as the miniatures could not be recycled as easily? Metal models can be stripped and thus reused. Further, they can be melted down and recast. Badly painted resin models would probably just be scrapped. It is my understanding that resin is ground up and used as filler. Thus, its ability to be recycled is limited.
you can strip resin models. not any more of a hassle. takes some different chemicals, for instance that acetone some folks us to strip their metal minis wouldnt be a good choice for resin.
As far as recycling, you coul grind it and use it as a filler material for future resin casts.
rtmonkeyboy wrote:My local store Manager told me yesterday that Forgeworld products would no longer be allowed to be made in store, in some stores not even painted!
The reasons given were thus:
1. Forgeworld were a "separate" and "competing" company!
2. The kits they produce were "too complicated" for younger gamers?
3. They weren't core product!
4. The dust from sanding was hazardous!
Guess GW blisters will be banned from this store as well quite soon
rtmonkeyboy wrote:My local store Manager told me yesterday that Forgeworld products would no longer be allowed to be made in store, in some stores not even painted!
The reasons given were thus:
1. Forgeworld were a "separate" and "competing" company!
2. The kits they produce were "too complicated" for younger gamers?
3. They weren't core product!
4. The dust from sanding was hazardous!
Guess GW blisters will be banned from this store as well quite soon
Oh thats smart, really smart... next time you go to a GW store they will only sell starters... and you have to fill a 40page form like a good boy...
master of ordinance wrote:my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child<snip>.
"Little children" should not be assembling these models.
Got to back this up, actually. It's says 12 and up for a reason.
"Parental Supervision" means "Parental Supervision." : )
Re: Dragon Painting Service
I've got buddies who use them almost exclusively. I can tell you that nothing they sell LOOKS pirated. All the metals and all the plastics look genuine.
I'm not defending them or denying that they might be making their own. I'm just saying that, if they're casting their own copies of ANYTHING, they're doing a darned fine job.
I'm more inclined to believe they've got an account with GW somehow, and get everything @ wholesale, though.
I also can vouch for the differences in types of resin. I have a few Aberration Prime models from Rackham which are resin. The large arm-blades on those bend kinda like rubber (though not quite that elastic) rather than snapping even though the thickest point is less than 1/8" thick, down to less than 1/16" at the thinnest point. The same model done with FW resin? Yeah, that blade would snap like a twig. So let s see what they do before we condemn this change, eh?
Nothing I've ever gotten from FW was good quality. Resin is way more work, way more fragile, and requires a mask if you are sanding it (and you WILL be sanding it). I have resin models from 5 or 6 different companies, and they all suck compared to good plastics.
Metal models shed paint, and shatter when dropped (arms, legs, etc.). Plastic bounces. Gimme plastic. Metal second. Resin...ugh.
master of ordinance wrote:my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child<snip>.
"Little children" should not be assembling these models.
Got to back this up, actually. It's says 12 and up for a reason.
"Parental Supervision" means "Parental Supervision." : )
Re: Dragon Painting Service
I've got buddies who use them almost exclusively. I can tell you that nothing they sell LOOKS pirated. All the metals and all the plastics look genuine.
I'm not defending them or denying that they might be making their own. I'm just saying that, if they're casting their own copies of ANYTHING, they're doing a darned fine job.
I'm more inclined to believe they've got an account with GW somehow, and get everything @ wholesale, though.
Eric
In the UK it used to be called making "foreigners" when factory workers used the facilities to make stuff for themselves.
I am not saying anything against Dragon.
The key point about organised piracy in China and other countries is they are using the same moulds and equipment to make rip-off models. In other words, the same factory that does an official run just runs off an extra xxx,000 copies on their own account. It is sometimes even the same management who do it. The quality will be exactly the same as the official stuff.
TheHammer wrote:Say what you will about GW but they are very good about replacing defective items. I doubt they would go with a substandard process and deal with the constant complaints and replacements it would entail.
I just called last week to have a replacement model sent because it was shipped with 2 of the left side pieces but not the right side (venomthrope), and the (quite rude) lady on the phone wouldn't ship it to my house, instead she sent it to my "local" GW retail shop, 1.5 hours away.
I've been sending them emails asking them to please send it to my home, but I have had no response.
I've got a feeling GW's replacement policy is changing.
minionboy wrote:I've got a feeling GW's replacement policy is changing.
Well it can't. Any situation where an item sold to you is 'not fit for purpose', ie miscast or with parts missing, entitles you to a full refund or replacement. That's the law.
If they insisted on sending a replacement to a shop an hour and a half away I'd make a formal complaint.
TheHammer wrote:Say what you will about GW but they are very good about replacing defective items. I doubt they would go with a substandard process and deal with the constant complaints and replacements it would entail.
I just called last week to have a replacement model sent because it was shipped with 2 of the left side pieces but not the right side (venomthrope), and the (quite rude) lady on the phone wouldn't ship it to my house, instead she sent it to my "local" GW retail shop, 1.5 hours away.
I've been sending them emails asking them to please send it to my home, but I have had no response.
I've got a feeling GW's replacement policy is changing.
It depends a lot on who you end up talking to on the phone. Sometimes they'll ask you to send back the models, but a lot of the time they won't. I had things shipped to me about 4 months ago from GW for replacement parts.
master of ordinance wrote:my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child<snip>.
"Little children" should not be assembling these models.
Got to back this up, actually. It's says 12 and up for a reason.
That's true, but in real terms GWs games have always been played by kids younger than 12. I would hazard a guess that a good number of the posters on this board started at a younger age.
They made all that effort to switch to white metal I think for that reason, the metal type was far more of an issue for children younger than 12, as well as the big expansion into the US market that was happening at the time.
master of ordinance wrote:my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child<snip>.
"Little children" should not be assembling these models.
Got to back this up, actually. It's says 12 and up for a reason.
That's true, but in real terms GWs games have always been played by kids younger than 12. I would hazard a guess that a good number of the posters on this board started at a younger age.
They made all that effort to switch to white metal I think for that reason, the metal type was far more of an issue for children younger than 12, as well as the big expansion into the US market that was happening at the time.
Quite true. I started when the metal models were lead. Pretty sure in Australia it said 16 and up back then too. I was 9.
master of ordinance wrote:my only worry is in the fragility of the models.
when a little child<snip>.
"Little children" should not be assembling these models.
Got to back this up, actually. It's says 12 and up for a reason.
That's true, but in real terms GWs games have always been played by kids younger than 12. I would hazard a guess that a good number of the posters on this board started at a younger age.
They made all that effort to switch to white metal I think for that reason, the metal type was far more of an issue for children younger than 12, as well as the big expansion into the US market that was happening at the time.
Quite true. I started when the metal models were lead. Pretty sure in Australia it said 16 and up back then too. I was 9.
Oh, I never said should not play. My son is getting an army for his 9th birthday next week. But I'd fear for the safety of all around if I let him loose with a hobby knife...
That's true, but in real terms GWs games have always been played by kids younger than 12. I would hazard a guess that a good number of the posters on this board started at a younger age.
I hear this said here and on other forums quite a bit and I've always wondered about it. I've been playing since 2nd edition ( I was 19 at the time) and I've never met a 40K player younger than 16 or 17. Most were college age or older. I feel like I've seen a pretty large sampling too, playing at stores across the state off and on for almost 15 years and running my own shop that sold GW products for a few years of that time. I've simply never seen a 12 year old player (outside my younger brother, who only started playing because I played, and never had his own army or played with anyone but me until he turned 20). Maybe it's a regional thing? I live in Portland, Oregon. There are plenty of young gamers here, but most prefer card games to miniatures, and I can't think of one where I've met one under the age of 16.
So I've never seen any real evidence that GW games are primarily played by younger kids. It always seems to be 19-40 year olds. As I said, this could just be a regional difference.
jake wrote:So I've never seen any real evidence that GW games are primarily played by younger kids. It always seems to be 19-40 year olds. As I said, this could just be a regional difference.
It's very much that. From my years of observing the community in Finland, I can confidently say that maybe about three fifths of the hobbyists are under 16
jake wrote:So I've never seen any real evidence that GW games are primarily played by younger kids. It always seems to be 19-40 year olds. As I said, this could just be a regional difference.
It's very much that. From my years of observing the community in Finland, I can confidently say that maybe about three fifths of the hobbyists are under 16
Interesting. I guess it is a regional thing then. Even when I was running a store where the customers where mostly 10-18 year olds with lots of money we never sold Warhammer to anyone that age (despite trying). They were always way more interested in card games.
Haha it is vaguely on topic, if we ascertain the average age of players then it makes a big difference as to whether the change to resin is appropriate (really! )
Well I was 9 or 10 when I started playing, and roped other school friends into it as well, starting lunchtime clubs and the like. During my time as a staffer I was beset by sprogs of around this age also, parents often using GW as a convenient baby sitting service.
I guess it must really be a regional thing however. I think the nature of the hobby is always going to appeal to younger kids, and if there is any kind of significant demographic anywhere in the world (be it the UK/US/Canada/Australia/Europe) where the players are at the younger age of scale, you have to look at how appropriate the materials they are using are.
If I were a father I would be happy supervising my kid cutting up sprues (I was given a pair of scissors when I was very young, it was good enough for me at the time! ) but I sure as hell wouldn't let my kid handle resin miniatures in their current form.
TobyDog wrote:This has now been confirmed by some retailers/FLGS ( AZ and AL) and their GW sales reps here in the USA.
So just waiting on the details at this point.... and the inevitable price hike...
you won't have to wait long regardless of whether GW confirms this publicly to consumers or not. it's spring... and that means the yearly "price adjustment" is only a few months away (june/july).
Some of the minis on the Tomb Kings page got overhauled, and none of the metal models are described as "multipart metal models" just "Multipart Models" now. May be a hint that it's already starting. 40K items seems unchanged, so I'm not quite sure.
This is unfortunate, since I really have no interest in resin models. Then again, I've been increasingly disenchanted by Games Workshop for a couple of years now, so this seems like as good of a time as any to go in a different direction with my gaming dollars.
Pacific wrote:They made all that effort to switch to white metal I think for that reason, the metal type was far more of an issue for children younger than 12, as well as the big expansion into the US market that was happening at the time.
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Some of the minis on the Tomb Kings page got overhauled, and none of the metal models are described as "multipart metal models" just "Multipart Models" now. May be a hint that it's already starting. 40K items seems unchanged, so I'm not quite sure.
I Work at my FLGS as the mini guy, and when i placed orders this week ALL metal models were going through this, Fantasy and 40k. My rep said look for them being out till May. yaayy..... :(
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Some of the minis on the Tomb Kings page got overhauled, and none of the metal models are described as "multipart metal models" just "Multipart Models" now. May be a hint that it's already starting. 40K items seems unchanged, so I'm not quite sure.
Not so fast. Our GW rep advised us that the termie libby and chappy were now direct only and that most of the metal models from all ranges would follow within 3 months. That IS the first step in the process, getting the good stuff out of our hands before they bring in the gakky resin that shatters into 1000 pieces if you are a dexterity impaired (like me) and knock it off the table.
The floor really is AP 1.
insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
I'm a little confused as to the assumption that GW would shoot themselves in the foot with resin if it wasn't a sound business strategy.
In fact, I think they should be applauded for being an early adopter of new technologies that should hopefully make modelling more interesting. I think we can safely assume that they are not going to be using brittle resins when the plastic/resin hybrids are now available. I hope they've found/bought a new kind of resin that isn't carcinogenic.
I'm also a little confused as to the "brittle" remarks about resin from Forgeworld... but then I realized something. I have the resin Keeper of Secrets from them, but I also noticed that it's a completely different material for her than it is for the resin parts in the 40k and Fantasy basing kits. The basing kits are badly done, brittle and not very nice. In comparison, my KoS is smooth, flexible (her hair pieces especially wouldn't survive being brittle), and has almost no flash. Could this be one of the first steps towards a newer sort of resin they want to move towards?
I remain cautiously optimistic, though I do agree that if the resin dust is still carcinogenic, they both have a duty to inform the buying public of it (and on their products, NOT on a website page somewhere under a FAQ!) and I think it will seriously backfire on them.
Last point, but I think it's an interesting one. Way back, someone said that it would be much harder to do second-hand model trading over eBay if the metals vanished. I wonder if that's what GW are taking into account aswell?
was talking to a privateer press guy at adepticon and they too are thinking of switching the metal models to resin and/or a lead based pewter. Reaper has already switched to a lead based pewter for its line. GW seems to want under 18 to play so they are most likely forced to go with resin.
Dream Pod 9 (Webmaster, biased, you know the drill) has been using resin for a lot of the 'big stuff' for a while. It was funny when I noticed my newer all-resin Aller (a large main battle tank) was lighter than the molder metal Klemms (lighter tanks, about half the length and a bit shorter).
In general I've had pretty good experiences with the resin kits I've gotten in for my personal use from DP9. It's a new experience working with it, and I need to 'schedule' my hobby time a bit so I can a lot of drilling/sanding outside, but there's not much required on the better-designed kits, thankfully.
In Forge World's defense, the biggest DP9 kit I've worked with is the Aller below, and the biggest in production is the HHT-90 which I'd guess is roughly the size of a Land Raider. Forge World does some massive stuff like the Thunderhawks and titans that may be a difficult model from an engineering standpoint.
Loki_TBC wrote:I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
The US isn't GW's only market.
Here in Oz, while I don't believe that having lead in them is inherently a problem, it potentially would affect whether they could be classified as a toy... which has an impact on import tarrifs.
insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.
I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.
And you would be 100% wrong.
Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(
Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.
GalaxyGobbo's two partnered stores as well as another friend who owns another out of state received word with a list of products that were immediately to be taken off the catalog:
46-25 ELDAR STRIKING SCORPIONS
46-27 ELDAR WARP SPIDERS
46-29 ELDAR RANGERS
46-36 ELDAR WARLOCK
85-43 DARK ELF DREADLORD
95-11 OGRE KINGDOMS TYRANT
L03-35 SARUMAN AND GRIMA
43-13 CHAOS DREADNOUGHT BOX SET
43-41 CHAOS SPACE MARINE SORCEROR
46-13 ELDAR SHINNING SPEARS
46-16 ELDAR FARSEER & WARLOCK BODYGUARD
46-22 ELDAR DARK REAPERS
46-24 ELDAR HOWLING BANSHEES
46-26 ELDAR SWOOPING HAWKS
46-30 ELDAR AUTARCH ON JETBIKE
46-37 ELDAR WRAITHGUARD
48-18 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAIN ON BIKE
48-24 SPACE MARINE TECHMARINE AND SERVITORS
48-31 SPACE MARINE STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD
48-33 SPACE MARINE VANGUARD VETERAN SQUAD
49-10 NECRON HEAVY DESTROYER BOX
49-13 NECRON C’TAN THE DECEIVER BOX
50-23 ORK BIG MEK WITH SHOKK ATTACK GUN
51-09 TYRANID HIVE TYRANT BOX
51-43 TYRANID HIVE GUARD
56-15 TAU SNIPER DRONE TEAM
83-58 CHAOS KHORNE CHAMPION
84-25 DWARF SLAYERS
84-43 DWARF MASTER ENGINEER
50-38 ORKS IN MEGA ARMOUR
50-42 ORK BOSS SNIKROT
55-12 BLACK TEMPLARS CHAPTER UPGRADE
90-15 SKAVEN SCREAMING BELL/PLAGUE FURNACE
90-37 SKAVEN WARLORD QUEEK HEADTAKER
97-10 DAEMONS PLAGUEBEARERS OF NURGLE
97-11 DAEMONS PLAGUEBEARERS OF NURGLE COMMAND
97-13 DAEMONS FLAMERS OF TZEENTCH
97-14 DAEMONS FLESH HOUNDS OF KHORNE
97-18 DAEMONS LORD OF CHANGE GREATER DAEMON OF TZEENTCH
97-20 DAEMONS BLOOD THIRSTER GREATER DAEMON OF KHORNE
47-64 TECHPRIEST ENGINSEER
48-38 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAIN
48-44 SPACE MARINE TERMINATOR CHAPLAIN
48-45 SPACE MARINE JUMP PACK CHAPLAIN
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CHAOS GODS
(really! 
