Grey Templar wrote:A Jedi master might be able to do serious damage to a Marine chapter, but he certaintly couldn't wipe one.
Librarians would be a major sticking point. 10 dudes of his level of power, who have NO qualms about killing him, would likely overwhelm him. Yoda excepted, cause, well, he's Yoda!
a Jedi's moral code would be his undoing. they will take prisoners and don't engage in needlesss killing. its all find and dandy in their universe, but when the prisoner you are taking will likely be able to break out of whatever restraining item you place him in and break your neck when your back is turned it isn't a good idea. The marine's mental preparedness would mean the Jedi wouldn't always sense the maliciousness, assuming there was any(ala Episode 3)
Jedi is like the word Samurai, it is both singular and plural. When I made the comment about some Master Jedi wiping a whole marine chapter I was talking about more then one. Basically the Jedi are straight copied from Eastern culture, both Samurai (servants of the republic instead of servants of a diaymo) and Shaolin Monks. They have a buddhist outlook. However, that doesn't mean they are pacifists. Buddhists have waged war before and they train in the arts of war to defend both their lives and their way of life.
If a space marine attacks a Jedi, there will be no moral interruption of the Jedi not killing the Marine. There will be no debate, there will be no qualms about it. Self preservation is an accepted and practiced idea in Buddhist arts. I took 7 years of Buddhist based martial arts, and there are differences in philosophy for sure, but when it comes to combat they do not hold back.
Crom wrote:I am not a fan boy nor do I really care who can win in a fight between a Jedi and a Space Marine. What I am doing is just basically posting information and trying to keep it balanced. Your comparison about how a clone can kill a Jedi with a blaster does not mean that Space Marines are far superior. Gretchin can kill space marines, I have seen it happen. Hell, I have seen space marines die due to dangerous terrain tests. I have seen wimpy little guardians take out space marines, and none of those things are any more worse than a clone in Star Wars.
I already brought up the fact if we are comparing the entire saga of both sides 40K would easily win because of technology and all the gods of the warp, which are pretty much unkillable. Though if you compare it with say the death star or the sun crusher, in fact the sun crusher could wipe out all of the 40K universe. It is indestructible, and it causes suns to white dwarf wiping out whole systems.
In the books Luke cuts through a space ship with his light saber.
Here goes an old republic trailer showing how Jedi can absorb energy
here is another one displaying what masters can do
Have you ever heard of a term known as "gameplay mechanics"? I have seen Bloodthirsters fall to guardsmen in melee combat on the tabletop. Have you ever once heard of that occurring in fluff? No, you have not. Same with Gretchin killing Space Marines, at least in melee combat, it doesn't happen. And ironically, the average guardsman poses a greater threat than a clone trooper, Lasguns can shoot through two meters of concrete. I cannot recall the average standard-issue blaster doing the same.
The Sun Crusher? Seriously? Come on dude, a Blackstone Fortress can do the same thing. Oh, and have you forgotten about the existence of a little race of beings called the C'tan? Who could, under their own power, easily destroy solar systems? Not cause a star to supernova which destroys the system, but actually make the star system disappear. In a black hole for example. Aka the same thing that destroyed the Sun Crusher. The C'tan when warring amongst themselves created black holes that ate star systems. Oh, and then there are fun little Necron trinkets like the World Engine, and Iori Delta Tove. Both ships the size of a planet, the World Engine was impervious to all Imperial weaponry with its advanced shields, and its standard weaponry was meant to basically end all life on a planet, reducing it to a barren husk. Iori Delta Tove was really neat, you see, even sleeping, with its presence alone, it altered the memories of individuals in surrounding space, ancient texts were rewritten, and the orbits of entire planets were shifted. How did it accomplish this? Oh, just by basically altering the timestream, rewriting history. This is but one faction, and but two of the advanced technologies at their disposal. Even the Dark Eldar can capture stars and leech off of them for power. Don't make this 40k vs. Star Wars, because there are beings so powerful within 40k they could literally solo the setting.
And in The Phantom Menace Qui-Gon takes time to cut through a blast door. Ceramite is amazingly heat retardant, it has even survived Exterminatus. So I am just saying, I doubt lightsabers can reliably cut through power armour.
Um, she was blocking the saber, not absorbing it. And beyond that, bolters are not energy, it's a slug that burrows into you, and then explodes. Nothing to really absorb.
And the Jedi and Sith fighting in the first and second videos are exceptional, most Jedi, as I have constantly brought up, are not that strong. And a Mandalorian is a poor-man's Space Marine in every way, it's sad really. Not quite as sad as Boba Fett making Vader look like a chump, but sad nontheless.
Although, some of the EU did kind of turn the Force into crap-magic, and actually, The Force Unleashed actually is noncanon I believe. The second one definitely is.
Void__Dragon wrote:There are levels of Star Wars canon.
Although, some of the EU did kind of turn the Force into crap-magic, and actually, The Force Unleashed actually is noncanon I believe. The second one definitely is.
Some of the endings are non-canon, but all the games are regarded as canon.
Let us not forget the Imperium of man's ordinary cruisers which are the equalvent of the dreadnoughts of the starwars universe
Not only that but did you see the jedi in the first one? THEY GOT OWNED by a dozen sith and a bounty hunter.
Hell the jedi were hunted down by Boba Fett. Yes one man killed hundreds of jedi... With blasters....... And rockets.... Can't stop a rocket that explodes and the shrapnel goes into you can't stop the bleeding immediately, only a space marine could stop that. Hell a space marine had his entire arm shot off, and just laughed threw his knife at the guy and there ya go he had his revenge. Cortez once an ordinary space marine now basically a cyborg on crack. No matter what you do this guy could not die, just showing you may beat him the first time, but the second time he would of learned how to defeat the jedi, and then he scarms a bullet into the jedi's skull.
Anyway, I think the jedi will lose because a typical jedi knight isn't an awesome fighter, not compared to a sith warrior.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Would it really matter that TFU is canon or not? Starkiller is not by any circumstance a normal Jedi.
yeah once he was human and was trained by Darth Vader..... Another very powerful sith..... With force augments and cybernetic implants, well if you can't tell on his model he has legs with metal parts and he has metal parts on his arm, so this means he is not a normal run of the mill jedi.
the average jedi can die pretty easily they aren't jedi masters. Hell jedi masters are over confident and thats how they die. and plus you saw the jedi die in revenge of the sith, they dropped like flies.
By the way a space marine has centuries of war, not a decade of training like a jedi, instead the space marine has 50 years or more years of training and is still considered a youngling.
In TFU1, he didn't actually bring the Star Destroyer down himself. it was already falling from the magma slug he had fired at it. he just stopped it from squishing him and his buds.
and Imperial Cruisers are MUCH larger then Star Wars dreadnoughts if i am interperting the scales right.
a Star Destroyer is slightly larger then a Cobra escort(but not by much)
Star Destroyers are 1.6km long.
Retribution battleships are 7.5km long, so I estimate Cruisers to be about 5.5km long. how big are dreadnoughts?
Well, the Executor class SSD was 19 kilometers long or so. However, such vessels are relatively few in number, definteley rarer than Imperial battleships.
The mainstay of the Galactice Empire's fleet is the Imperial Star Destroyer, and I'm fairly sure a Lunar cruiser would be able to outfight an ISD.
Grey elder wrote:What about Revan before he turned evil.
Most characters like Revan, Sidious and Luke aren't good examples of bog standard Jedi. Once again, if the Jedi squad is Luke, Sidious and Revan, then the Space Marine squad is Marneus Calgar, Tigurius and Draigo.
Grey elder wrote:What about Revan before he turned evil.
Most characters like Revan, Sidious and Luke aren't good examples of bog standard Jedi. Once again, if the Jedi squad is Luke, Sidious and Revan, then the Space Marine squad is Marneus Calgar, Tigurius and Draigo.
Don't you think that's a little overkill why not just send Draigo
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, the Executor class SSD was 19 kilometers long or so. However, such vessels are relatively few in number, definteley rarer than Imperial battleships.
The mainstay of the Galactice Empire's fleet is the Imperial Star Destroyer, and I'm fairly sure a Lunar cruiser would be able to outfight an ISD.
yup,
as its name implies, a Star Destroyer is just that. a Destroyer. a small escort vessel meant to provide covering fire for a larger vessel, normally a Battleship or Carrier.
Star Wars basically only has Super Star Destroyers to fill the role of a larger ship and those never appear in groups. they were intended to be the Capital ship for every Empire fleet commander, but in reality only a few actually recieved one.
I think Lucas just picked a deadly sounding name when he made Star Destroyers up as the main line vessel for the Empire. but they fit in just right with size levels in 40k. Cobra class destroyers are about the same size.
Grey Templar wrote:
as its name implies, a Star Destroyer is just that. a Destroyer. a small escort vessel meant to provide covering fire for a larger vessel, normally a Battleship or Carrier.
No. That's so far off, it's almost laughable.
This thread isn't about ships. Keep it on the topic of Jedi versus Space Marines.
Can we all just agree that Jedi would lost and move on?
Don't matter how Jedi is tough - there are more Space Marines then them and they can't move planet's with their force powers, they can barely deflect 10 shots fired at them at the same time...
Grey elder wrote:Well even though its a jedi fight only Darth Nihilus is able to kill a planet with his force powers(But still suffers from bad guy syndrome)?
Well, Nihilus was starved, weakened from hunger when the Exile and friends boarded the Ravager. And then drained himself once more when he tried to "eat" the Exile, which he could not do because the Exile was a Wound in the Force, like him. And then he can be weakened again via Visas exploiting the Force Link she has with him.
Um has anyone taken into account the speed a laser would travel in comparison to a bullet? I'd have to imagine a great deal faster.. so if a jedi can see multiple lasers coming beforehand... wouldnt we get some matrix happening not to mention I'm sure force push would be much more effective on metal bullets compared to a blast of energy.. no? Food for thought
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question would depend on if lascannon, lasgun, plasma and melta could be held on par with an actual blaster laser etc.
a) Star Wars blasters do not move like lasers. They are clearly travelling slower than light.
b) It doesn't matter that a bolter round may be moving slower if they're coming at them full auto in every direction. Some will get through, and the damage from that will scew up the Jedi's concentration/whatever enough that more will get through to finally kill the Jedi.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Here goes an old republic trailer showing how Jedi can absorb energy
here is another one displaying what masters can do
Those videos undermine the argument for the Jedi. The offensive impact of psychic powers in 40K far outstrip even the most ridiculous displays in Star Wars (INCLUDING Force Unleashed 2).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:The details of the confrontation haven't been defined. The Jedi would lose against what? A single marine? A Squad? The Chapter?
I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.
They've been defined several times. One average Jedi vs. average Space Marine = Jedi wins. One average Jedi vs. average squad of Marines = Marines win with a couple of casualties. Jedi vs. Librarian = coin-toss.
iproxtaco wrote: I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.
I was referring to Jedi's Marines can only make a planet disappear...
They can't. Malcador the Sigilitte, the most powerful human psyker after the Emperor could enact a costly spell to temporarily place Titan in the Warp. The Grey Knights do not know how the Warp Nexus works, and they can't fully operate it.
Omegus wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:The details of the confrontation haven't been defined. The Jedi would lose against what? A single marine? A Squad? The Chapter? I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.
They've been defined several times. One average Jedi vs. average Space Marine = Jedi wins. One average Jedi vs. average squad of Marines = Marines win with a couple of casualties. Jedi vs. Librarian = coin-toss.
I simply stating that Coa didn't define the confrontation he assumed Marine would win.
iproxtaco wrote:
They can't. Malcador the Sigilitte, the most powerful human psyker after the Emperor could enact a costly spell to temporarily place Titan in the Warp. The Grey Knights do not know how the Warp Nexus works, and they can't fully operate it.
I was thinking of blowing up planet not passing it into the warp
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
I simply stating that Coa didn't define the confrontation he assumed Marine would win.
Simple count = there are more Marines than Jedi.
Like Clonetroopers vs. Jedi - who win in the end? The one with superior numbers...
iproxtaco wrote:
I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.
I was referring to Jedi's Marines can only make a planet disappear...
They can't. Malcador the Sigilitte, the most powerful human psyker after the Emperor could enact a costly spell to temporarily place Titan in the Warp. The Grey Knights do not know how the Warp Nexus works, and they can't fully operate it.
they don't know how to get it working completely, but it doesn't mean they won't ever.
its possable they will find the right combination eventually.
If you practice suspension of disbelief like I do, it does matter.
It's like comparing the US and the Soviet militaries and then saying that we have to consider the fact that maybe every single US nuclear missile blows up when they press the launch button. Sure, I guess it's possible, but it's not something that can be counted on to be reliable.
Grey Templar wrote:How is a missile exploding on launch anything like this?
It's saying that there is a slight possibility something might happen. There is a tiny chance that all of one saides missiles will blow up on launch, and there is a tiny chance that the Grey Knights will be able to use their psychic powers to do something that Malcador did.
Either way, the probability is slight enough that you can't base a comparison of forces on something with such a small probability happening.
I get that there are 12 pages so this has probably already been brought up, but;
Mass Reactive Shells > Light sabre
Mass Reactive Shells > Jedi
Space Marine reflexes & autosenses + Bolt weaponary > Jedi-Fu
Space Marine ATSKNF (Mental Discipline/training) > Any & All Jedi mind tricks.
Space Marine Armour > Jedi fireworks.
Hands down would Jedi beat a lot of marines in close combat although I would assume the powerfield of power weapons could equally cross blades with a light sabre, still I presume a Jedi to be more adept than a standard assault marine. Even with that in mind, there are plenty of opponents that beat marines hand's down in close-combat, doesn't stop them shredding them with bolter fire. The light sabre can't deflect mass reactive shells (or it might detonate them but, at least, its still equivalent to buck shot to the face) and their acrobatics only work so well against rank & file marines as well as their supreme loadout of targeting auspexes and accuracy.
And the elite of the Astartes, Assault Terminator; would rip the elite of Jedi (More Jedi?) to shreds. My point being that Jedi don't scale either (not including special characters as the point is moot).
A Jedi might also deal what he thinks is a fatal blow to a Marine and then gets a chainsword up his in return.
stab a marine through the heart, suprise!!, he's got 2 and will survive the internal burns long enough to crush the Jedi's neck. the marine could even survive completely.
ChrisWWII wrote:If you practice suspension of disbelief like I do, it does matter.
It's like comparing the US and the Soviet militaries and then saying that we have to consider the fact that maybe every single US nuclear missile blows up when they press the launch button. Sure, I guess it's possible, but it's not something that can be counted on to be reliable.
I am sorry but I just am not making sense of this....and I don't think you can parallel this to a thread about two fictitious group of soldiers having a hypothetical battle.
It's not the specific example of the US vs the Soviets. He's talking about how certain things in the thread rely on possibilities like the the missiles blowing up, it's not likely to happen.
iproxtaco wrote:
I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.
I was referring to Jedi's Marines can only make a planet disappear...
Imperial Armour 10 has the Red Scorpions gut a nearby sun and use the "stellar core" to throw it at one of Huron's space stations. Ignoring the general and all-to-usual Forgeworld- of throwing suns at (planetary-defense)-space stations (who they hell checks the drivel they write?), if Marines can move a sun, they can move a planet.
Oh, and the reason given for why they did it in IA10 was that proper battleships and the like was in short supply and fighting Tyranids elsewhere. So presumably, hauling stars around is a second-best, duct-tape-MacGyver solutions for Marines when propa' weapons are not to be had.
Razerous wrote:I get that there are 12 pages so this has probably already been brought up, but;
Mass Reactive Shells > Light sabre
Mass Reactive Shells > Jedi
Space Marine reflexes & autosenses + Bolt weaponary > Jedi-Fu
Space Marine ATSKNF (Mental Discipline/training) > Any & All Jedi mind tricks.
Space Marine Armour > Jedi fireworks.
(i didn't quote your post Razerous to single you out, just to reference what i'm talking about.)
IIRC The Jedi have been around for about 20,000 years.
I feel like someone has already tried out Mass Reactive Shells, Bolt(like) Weaponry, and power armor against them, and it didn't work. Otherwise people in the star wars universe would just use explosive rounds to kill jedi instead of lasers.
If this has already been brought up, sorry. I stopped reading at like page 5.
I think Star Wars has by and large dispensed with solid state weapons for firearms. even bowcasters are energy based. i have the feeling that weapons like that haven't been used in Star Wars for untold thousands of years.
Bolt shells would be something new and jedi would likely parry them like any other weapon they are familiar with. and then the bolt shell would explode on contact with the lightsabre.
Solid weapons require an explosive propellent, but then someone invented energy weapons which are far easier to reload and recharge. people ditched the solid slug weapons for the simpler to use and rechargeenergy weapons.
eventually, they completely forget how to create these weapons. explosives live on only as grenades and bombs.
then Space Marines come in with exploding solid slugs. these weapons have horrendous effects on bodies which their medical technology and body armor isn't used to dealing with(Laser burns being the norm)
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.
iproxtaco wrote:That particular article says this -
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.
Nice, didn't read that far. Then i guess Jedi are screwed.
Except the blade of a lightsabre doesn't have enough mass to trigger the core of a bolter shell... the blade has the mass of light. This is one of the many reasons it requires the Force to wield effectively (that is, not cut your own leg off).
The bolter round is mass-reactive, not a shell that explodes on contact. Deflecting it does not cause the round to explode. You can also stop them with telekinetic powers. Patience Kys, only a delta-grade, possibly kappa-grade, psyker, stops a near-point-blank bolter round with her mind. Sure, it drains her of pretty much all the mental strength she had... but skilled Jedi are very much above the delta-grade level of psychic ability. They're no alpha-plus like Ravenor, of course, but psychic ability increases exponentially with each grade. A beta-grade psyker can mind-slave hundreds, if not thousands, of people at a time. A beta-grade telekine could probably drop a Leman Russ on your head.
Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.
Grey Templar wrote:Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.
So my theory was true, the bolt shell will explode the moment it touches lightsaber.
In that case Jedi are screwed since the debris will get to him for sure...
Grey Templar wrote:Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.
So my theory was true, the bolt shell will explode the moment it touches lightsaber.
In that case Jedi are screwed since the debris will get to him for sure...
You forget that Jedi's can wear Mandalorian armour .
Psienesis wrote:Except the blade of a lightsabre doesn't have enough mass to trigger the core of a bolter shell... the blade has the mass of light. This is one of the many reasons it requires the Force to wield effectively (that is, not cut your own leg off).
The bolter round is mass-reactive, not a shell that explodes on contact. Deflecting it does not cause the round to explode. You can also stop them with telekinetic powers. Patience Kys, only a delta-grade, possibly kappa-grade, psyker, stops a near-point-blank bolter round with her mind. Sure, it drains her of pretty much all the mental strength she had... but skilled Jedi are very much above the delta-grade level of psychic ability. They're no alpha-plus like Ravenor, of course, but psychic ability increases exponentially with each grade. A beta-grade psyker can mind-slave hundreds, if not thousands, of people at a time. A beta-grade telekine could probably drop a Leman Russ on your head.
Actually it is energy in the form of plasma. Light would not be able to be controlled to make a blade, it would extend forever. The force is not limited to just deflecting projectiles with light sabers. Ever see the short animated video of Mace Windu, where he basically destroys a whole droid army with out his light saber? This is all clone wars canon approved by Lucas, so it is an actual representation of Jedi power.
Again, Space Marines would not have that easy of a time taking out Jedi.
iproxtaco wrote:Bolters do not detonate on impact, the whole point is that they penetrate the target first. A Lightsaber, with no mass, would burn through them.
but the heat will detonate the explosive charge. que dangerous shrapnel.
Also with the Mace Windu vid, he's one of the Jedi Heroes so not an average Jedi. As said before if you get him we get Draigo or some other badass person
Stormcallers wrote:wow Crom, I was about to post this exact vid! We had this discussion at my FLGS and someone suggested i post this vid...great minds think alike!
I studied martial arts off and on a giant chunk of my life and my buddy sent me that video when it came out a few years ago. The guy that did that animation is the same guy that did Samurai Jack, and his attention to detail is quite amazing. There are a lot of actual kung fu moves in that short. Imagine a Shaolin Monk practicing their arts but fueled by the power of the force? The force is an unlimited power, the practitioner is the one that is limited. Like, when Yoda tells Luke size does not matter, Luke cannot get it out of him mind that sunken ship is harder because it is larger. Once Luke realizes that size is an illusion (buddhist influence here) he is able to over come, although if I recall Yoda lifted the sunken X-Wing for him. Many buddhist martial arts have the same concept, of little ideas, or efficiency. You realize power is in the mind.
Also, the light saber cuts right though the ship, as they do in other games, books, TV series, and so forth. I have no idea why Lucas made Qui Gon Gin's light saber so weak against the blast doors in the beginning of episode one, other than it was a plot device. Then again, Lucas is one of the worst writers ever. Great idea guy, but horrible writer and character/plot developer.
Stormcallers wrote:wow Crom, I was about to post this exact vid! We had this discussion at my FLGS and someone suggested i post this vid...great minds think alike!
I studied martial arts off and on a giant chunk of my life and my buddy sent me that video when it came out a few years ago. The guy that did that animation is the same guy that did Samurai Jack, and his attention to detail is quite amazing. There are a lot of actual kung fu moves in that short. Imagine a Shaolin Monk practicing their arts but fueled by the power of the force? The force is an unlimited power, the practitioner is the one that is limited. Like, when Yoda tells Luke size does not matter, Luke cannot get it out of him mind that sunken ship is harder because it is larger. Once Luke realizes that size is an illusion (buddhist influence here) he is able to over come, although if I recall Yoda lifted the sunken X-Wing for him. Many buddhist martial arts have the same concept, of little ideas, or efficiency. You realize power is in the mind.
Also, the light sabre cuts right though the ship, as they do in other games, books, TV series, and so forth. I have no idea why Lucas made Qui Gon Gin's light saber so weak against the blast doors in the beginning of episode one, [b]other than it was a plot device. Then again, Lucas is one of the worst writers ever. Great idea guy, but horrible writer and character/plot developer.
All lightsabers are just light beams so blast doors which are supposedly meant to stop Laser from penetrating the doors that is why it took so long, also in Sithlords a door was made of the same material of which they outfit the battleships with and was also magnetized and stopped the lightsaber from bust or cutting through the door. So cutting through blast doors should not be an easy feat even for a lightsaber.
Mace Windu, because he's a totally accurate representation of your average jedi. Also totally not considered the greatest jedi warrior who ever lived, nope.
DarknessEternal wrote:Mace Windu, because he's a totally accurate representation of your average jedi. Also totally not considered the greatest jedi warrior who ever lived, nope.
Man PimpSword deserved a better ending then getting tossed out a windu(Yeah I went there).
DarknessEternal wrote:Mace Windu, because he's a totally accurate representation of your average jedi. Also totally not considered the greatest jedi warrior who ever lived, nope.
He isn't considered the greatest and if you go by all the books, even the ones that predate the movies, there have been far greater jedi/sith. Though Mace does rank up there as a bad ass. Also, in the movies the Jedi are at their weakest, and rely on things like mediclorians and technology, which is why they lost touch with the force, and also why how easy it was for the Emperor to mask himself from the Jedi. If you read up on the third party writing about the movies it goes into this, where as Lucas just sort of forgot to mention it.
Mace Windu could crush a Marine in his armor just like he crushed those droids. Then again none of it really matters because Wolverine could kill all of them. In Marvel Civil war, they dropped a damn nuke on him, and he regenerated....seriously talk about over powered
DarknessEternal wrote:Mace Windu, because he's a totally accurate representation of your average jedi. Also totally not considered the greatest jedi warrior who ever lived, nope.
He isn't considered the greatest and if you go by all the books,... If you read up on the third party writing about the movies it goes into this, where as Lucas just sort of forgot to mention it.
None of those books are canon. Seriously, none of them.
Lucas can't forget anything about Star Wars. If he doesn't think of it, it doesn't exist. Star Wars is his property alone. Even the licensing agreements he makes with other companies, to write those novels for example, include language that can be summarized as "none of this crap really counts as Star Wars."
DarknessEternal wrote:Mace Windu, because he's a totally accurate representation of your average jedi. Also totally not considered the greatest jedi warrior who ever lived, nope.
He isn't considered the greatest and if you go by all the books,... If you read up on the third party writing about the movies it goes into this, where as Lucas just sort of forgot to mention it.
None of those books are canon. Seriously, none of them.
Lucas can't forget anything about Star Wars. If he doesn't think of it, it doesn't exist. Star Wars is his property alone. Even the licensing agreements he makes with other companies, to write those novels for example, include language that can be summarized as "none of this crap really counts as Star Wars."
You sure? I heard otherwise like he was OK with the death of Mara Jade and Chewbacca and that the licensed books are canon since they pay for the license. All other authors seem to be consistent with this too. How is the GW stuff licensed? Is it gospel, so to speak?
I honestly never looked up the license agreements of any of this. However, if you are going to compare you should compare what is widely excepted rather than what a license agreement states.
Oddly enough, Jedi are quite vulnerable to non-laser weapons in the lore, compared to laser weapons. Explosive and shrapnel weapons especially. Try not getting hurt by a weapon designed to explode when it hits your lightsaber when you instinctively block
K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect? Now just picture the sith lord as a librairian or whoever. The jedi are elite they still come with the troopers and they watch eachothers backs . Just like marines to the psyker. So what your going to get is a giant bloody mess with people flying everywhere . gak blowing up like any normal war. What It will this whole thing will rely on is the basic fundamentals of combat because everyone is forgetting that they are all still human to a point. So the victor will be based on the battle plan, moral tactical advantages and of course luck. A bloody messs and that's it.
Jedi Powers are NOTHING compared to the powers of a strong psyker...
In fact, a Primaris Psyker could actually feasibly block a shot from the death star and live to tell the tale, without really necessarily overly exerting themselves and coming to absolutely no harm. Possibly even preventing the destruction of the planet, although it'd still be rather scarred from the energies released as it explodes against their stasis shell above the planet's surface instead of penetrating to the core.
Melissia wrote:Jedi Powers are NOTHING compared to the powers of a strong psyker...
In fact, a Primaris Psyker could actually feasibly block a shot from the death star and live to tell the tale, without really necessarily overly exerting themselves and coming to absolutely no harm. Possibly even preventing the destruction of the planet, although it'd still be rather scarred from the energies released as it explodes against their stasis shell above the planet's surface instead of penetrating to the core.
Lol well my primaris psyker has been killed by many things that fall short from a death star in the way a fly would fall short of a bullet. Everyone can be killed. And they all have their str. And weaknesses as everyones base component is human .
And have we all missed the obvious? The link between these worlds are the normal humans and how they perform against it all. Troopers = imperial. guard so space marines are going to mangle troopers in cc. But will still die. Troopers get mangled by jedi but can outnumber and overwhelm. Hence a bloody mess .
Primaris Psykers in tabletop are nowhere NEAR representative of how they are in fluff. They can't, for example, do things such as create a thunderstorm where instead of rain there's fireballs.
Melissia wrote:Jedi Powers are NOTHING compared to the powers of a strong psyker...
In fact, a Primaris Psyker could actually feasibly block a shot from the death star and live to tell the tale, without really necessarily overly exerting themselves and coming to absolutely no harm. Possibly even preventing the destruction of the planet, although it'd still be rather scarred from the energies released as it explodes against their stasis shell above the planet's surface instead of penetrating to the core.
The Force is infinitely safer than the Warp, and the temptations of the Force are far, far less dangerous. The powers they draw on are also less powerful. So what if a Jedi can pull their lightsaber into their hand from a few meters away? A Psyker can summon THEIR power sword from half a world away in the same amount of time, and that's considered a weak and minor psychic power that almost any psyker would be able to learn, even recent sanctionites with relatively weak psychic powers.
You cant put everything based on lore as there are loop holes. And execptions . You need to look at the fundament mechanics . Human, mortality , mistakes, limits from being human . If you merge the worlds you have to realise that there is a reaction for every action. There is a counter that will be developed against these "godly" things you try to throw in. Human civilization has proved this for a few thousand years. Which brings it all back to both sides will lose and win. With the execption of mass defeat from masterful planning or mass technological advantages which I would say is non existant here for the sake of arguing
Melissia wrote:Primaris Psykers in tabletop are nowhere NEAR representative of how they are in fluff. They can't, for example, do things such as create a thunderstorm where instead of rain there's fireballs.
Njal can ( had to be said) Also I must include sith in this argument because its the other side of the coin. Darth Nihilus can suck a planet dead with his force powers.
As for Darth Nihilus? 40k has dozens like him, or worse, ones capable of literally drawing worlds into the warp.
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larose14 wrote:You cant put everything based on lore as there are loop holes.
Nonsense.
It's like comparing a twenty year old beat up VW beetle to a Nascar custom-built racer and wondering which one will finish first, saying you can't judge the race based off of the car's designs.
if a Jedi loses control, he turns to the Dark Side and gains some small level of power in the offensive arena.
if a Psyker loses control he can be posessed by a Daemon who is mearly an extension of a dark god's will. even worse if the psyker barters his soul with a Dark God for even more power.
entire sectors have fallen into darkness because 1 psyker came under the influence of Chaos(willingly or unwillingly. the willing ones are more dangerous)
have a person with even a fraction of that power and the force seems wimpy.
it seems that, for some reason, nearly al Star Wars species are roughly Humanoid in shape and body size. I think only Wookie Jedi could even come close to matching a Space Marine in physical strength, but the marine maintains a durability and speed advantage.
Jedi can control atoms and molecules in our universe to some degree...
Psykers control matter in Warp, witch is 100x deadlier than our matter and use it to wield unimaginable destructive powers in our universe...
Brother Coa wrote:
Psykers control matter in Warp, witch is 100x deadlier than our matter and use it to wield unimaginable destructive powers in our universe...
You mean kinda like omega level psykers (or whatever the highest grade is), who can crush a battle titan with a thought?
The Force yields unlimited and infinite power, the force user is limited, not the force. The practitioner of the Force comes with limits be it, physical, mental, and how in tune they are with the force. There have been sith lords that come back from the dead thousands of years later, or sith lords that cannot be killed at all because they are so driven by their hate, that the only way to kill them is to bring them peace.
A powerful Jedi could just crush all the marines in their armor. A non powerful Jedi wouldn't be able to do that. I think overall the Marines would win in all out war, but they wouldn't beat the Jedi with out suffering heavy losses.
Wow, look at all of this Marine love! No wonder GW releases so many codexes for them!
I'd wager that one Jedi would be the equal of ten Space Marines. That's not a dig on Space Marines, just a reflection of how potent that the Jedi are. This is all a moot point though, since the Fremen would stomp Marines AND Jedi.
SkaerKrow wrote:Wow, look at all of this Marine love! No wonder GW releases so many codexes for them!
I'd wager that one Jedi would be the equal of ten Space Marines. That's not a dig on Space Marines, just a reflection of how potent that the Jedi are. This is all a moot point though, since the Fremen would stomp Marines AND Jedi.
I think it is moot because Wolverine and Chuck Norris would have to come in, tell the Jedi and the Space marines they are both pretty and to stop fighting, then decide to kill everyone. I have been outta comics for a long time but on occasion I will pick up a collection and read through it, and man their characters are insanely powerful. Magneto could destroy whole marine chapters, and he can also now travel in the vacuum of space by creating an atmosphere with in a magnetic field that allows him to breath. he can also now regenerate his body's cells with magnetic fields, making him basically immortal.
I run a Star Wars RPG game every week. I love the OT like it was a parent. The prequels make me bleed from my rectum. Understand how deep my love of Star Wars is.
Space Marines win.
Sorry, guys. It's incontrovertable. 1000 Chapters of 1000 is 1 million. The only time hard numbers are given for the Jedi they are put at 20,000 members. That's being outnumbered 50 to 1.
We've seen that lightsabers take a long time to cut through certain hardened materials (Ep1)... I would think that Marine armor would count as such a material, being constructed out of something called "Adamantite". So you can cut a SM with your lightsaber, but it's going to take a few swings before you find the chocolate center under the candy shell. And all the while, the SM is shooting you.
Lightsabers can cut a bolter round, but hitting explosives with a laser usually results in a detonation. IRL, bombs are not very friendly when you shoot them, unless they are made of certain compounds. Even if they don't explode, Jedi have difficulty dealing with full auto fire (Ep2)
Jedi telekenetic powers can push bolter rounds away, but can a Jedi focus on the hail of fast-moving targets and push them all away before they hit him? Maybe, maybe not. And all it takes is ONE bolt shell to get through.
Can't lightsaber parry or Force Push a meltagun. It doesn't fire a coherent beam; it fires a blast of microwave radiation. Can't block it, can't stop it. If you don't dodge it, you're cooked, and if you're dodging it, you're probably headed into someone else's bolter volley.
Flamers? Eat promethium, Heretic.
Chainswords? Well, they are also described as made from Adamantite, so they could probably parry a few lightsaber hits before they suffered enough damage that they would not function as chain-weapons anymore.
Still makes a pretty good club. Last time I checked, Jedi are still vulnerable to blunt-force trauma...
Jedi Mind Tricks? Everybody on the SW side of this issue thinks that's a game-changer. Nobody on the SW side of this knows anything about Space Marine conditioning. I'll explain it. "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." The Space Marines are not weak-minded. They are susceptible to influence and corruption by the Gods of Chaos, true. But Gods of Chaos are very much more powerful than any Jedi who ever lived, or ever will live, the end.
Your mind trick might work on some Scouts, but those guys are punks anyway, thanks to the new codex.
Jedi Knights are warriors, not soldiers. There's no difference, you say? Well, there is one. Warriors are guys who are trained to fight and do battle. Soldiers are trained to wage war. The distinction is that SM have a greater understanding of battlefield tactics, combat strategy, and how to work as a unit than the Jedi. So maybe 1 Jedi vs 1 SM it doesn't matter much... but 10 Jedi vs 10 Marines, you'll see an important difference in their respective abilities. 10 Jedi will fight like 10 Jedi. 10 Marines will fight like 1 Tactical Squad.
Marines (most of them, anyway) can spit highly corrosive acid. Into your Jedi's face. Jedi might not need eyes to see, but it's real damn hard swinging a lightsaber without a head.
All these claims of Jedi using godlike powers to make the ground swallow enemies or call lightning down to smight their foes is Tolkeen-level wishful thinking. The Jedi are never, NEVER depicted with that kind of power in any of the films. Gotta stick with canon, and as Lucas has said, if it's not in the movies, it's not canon.
And before you get all moist and claim I'm drawing from the novels for thh SM side; I've only pulled info from the Codex and main rulebook.
Sorry, Star Wars fans. I gotta give this one to the Marines.
squidhills wrote:The Jedi are never, NEVER depicted with that kind of power in any of the films. Gotta stick with canon, and as Lucas has said, if it's not in the movies, it's not canon.
squidhills wrote:The Jedi are never, NEVER depicted with that kind of power in any of the films. Gotta stick with canon, and as Lucas has said, if it's not in the movies, it's not canon.
Mind finding me a quote?
Any interview with George Lucas where someone mentions the Expanded Universe. He will say it at least once.
Finally this thread can be put too rest cause I think Squidhills has taking the cake right from under Gladys's cyber nose (see Portal game) and ran home so the Marine can have some food
squidhills wrote:The Jedi are never, NEVER depicted with that kind of power in any of the films. Gotta stick with canon, and as Lucas has said, if it's not in the movies, it's not canon.
Mind finding me a quote?
Any interview with George Lucas where someone mentions the Expanded Universe. He will say it at least once.
Then the OP needs to specify if we're limited to the Star Wars films, or the entire Star Wars universe.
Crom wrote:The Force yields unlimited and infinite power, the force user is limited, not the force. The practitioner of the Force comes with limits be it, physical, mental, and how in tune they are with the force. There have been sith lords that come back from the dead thousands of years later, or sith lords that cannot be killed at all because they are so driven by their hate, that the only way to kill them is to bring them peace.
A powerful Jedi could just crush all the marines in their armor.
Aaaand a powerful Psyker could plunge an entire world into the warp with a thought, killing and tormenting all the Jedi on it for all eternity afterwards.
Or hell, they could just turn their blood into fire instead.
Why exactly is this comparison even being made? It's not like Jedi and Astartes are comparable, or even meant to fill the same roles in their respective universes.
This is almost as bad as that Gandalf Vs. Eldrad thread.
jedi mind tricks won't work against psychic hood. I'd like to see that jedi get passed a storm shield and parry a force weapon. Oh, so you can move stuff with your mind? Mr. Librarian here can open a vortex to your doom! Enjoy eternity in oblivion. Say hi to Mr. Khorne while your down there.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Why exactly is this comparison even being made? It's not like Jedi and Astartes are comparable, or even meant to fill the same roles in their respective universes.
This is almost as bad as that Gandalf Vs. Eldrad thread.
Because people like to argue who has the better imaginary friend.
squidhills wrote:The Jedi are never, NEVER depicted with that kind of power in any of the films. Gotta stick with canon, and as Lucas has said, if it's not in the movies, it's not canon.
Mind finding me a quote?
Any interview with George Lucas where someone mentions the Expanded Universe. He will say it at least once.
Well, that is just ridiculous, because the movies in no way represent really what the Jedi can do. What Lucas was trying to point out is that the Jedi in the movies had lost touch with the force and focused way too much on technology and mediclorians and things that don't really impact or define the force, which allowed the Emperor to disguise and cloud his sith practices from the whole Jedi Council, even Yoda was blinded. The problem is, Lucas does a horrible job of developing that aspect of the story. I remember reading this from an article published by Lucas Arts some years ago.
Though I guess this whole thread is ridiculous.....
Lucasfilms keeps an internal database that includes all media related to Star Wars. I think they even give each book/show/whatever a "canon" rating corresponding to weither or not it exists in the Star Wars universe. Things that Lucanfilms considers insanely exaggerated are excluded from the canon, but others are included.
EDIT: Its called the "holocron" or some such nonsense.
So how highly rated are Jedi generally in this 'holocron' thing?
Because if the measure of Jedi is what the characters can accomplish in the movies, (i.e. deflecting monodirectional blaster shots and force-jumping is real ultimate POWAH) then I think as few as two tactical Marines are more than a match for individual Jedi.
Jedi seem even more underwhelming in the Clone Wars cartoons. Unarmed Trandoshans are more of a match for unarmed Jedi than I would have expected, even partially trained Jedi 'younglings'.
larose14 wrote:K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect? Now just picture the sith lord as a librairian or whoever. The jedi are elite they still come with the troopers and they watch eachothers backs . Just like marines to the psyker. So what your going to get is a giant bloody mess with people flying everywhere . gak blowing up like any normal war. What this whole thing will rely on is the basic fundamentals of combat because everyone is forgetting that they are all still human to a point. So the victor will be based on the battle plan, moral tactical advantages and of course luck. A bloody messs and that's it.
larose14 wrote:K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect? Now just picture the sith lord as a librairian or whoever. The jedi are elite they still come with the troopers and they watch eachothers backs . Just like marines to the psyker. So what your going to get is a giant bloody mess with people flying everywhere . gak blowing up like any normal war. What this whole thing will rely on is the basic fundamentals of combat because everyone is forgetting that they are all still human to a point. So the victor will be based on the battle plan, moral tactical advantages and of course luck. A bloody messs and that's it.
Are you posting from a phone? I think the m stands for mobile....try posting from a computer, or directly copy/paste the link from your phone's browser and not the youtube app
NamTaey wrote:I am pretty sure if a lot of Jedi fought a Space Marine company, this would be the outcome:
pew pew
You mean Imperial Guard. Except lasguns fire projectiles which move at the speed of light, unlike blasters, meaning it's that much harder to block, if it even can be.
Stormcallers wrote:Well Jedi are most certainly canon....so i guess they are "rated" as high as you can go haha.
Heh, not 'rating' in terms of how canon, but rather 'power rating'. Jedi in the movies, even while lifting x-wings with their brains or doing lightsaber-fu are simply not that impressive outside of 1v1 or 1v2 duels.
Also wasn't it in the clone wars cartoon that Windu went crazy on all those droids.
Yeah, the Genndy Tartakovsky Clone Wars. That was epic. I'd point out that Samurai Jack pulls off some pretty epic maneuvers too, though. Jedi v Samurai with Magical Sword: Who wins?
The CGI Clone Wars cartoons Jedi, though, are not nearly so amazing. I'm not an avid fan, only watching when CN has a Sunday marathon or something like that, but I distinctly remember Jedi Master something-or-other with a lightsaber getting eaten by four or hunting dog wolf things. A naked Space Marine would have eaten them, not the other way around.
I'm going to go with the general consensus (it seems) that 1 Jedi = 10 Marines
I think the ratio is something in the low digits so I won't disagree with it being 1 Jedi to 1 squad of unnamed anonymous Marines.
I distinctly remember Jedi Master something-or-other with a lightsaber getting eaten by four or hunting dog wolf things. A naked Space Marine would have eaten them, not the other way around.
The Space Marine actually would have become best friends with them, been fed on their mother's milk and finally forge some mythical "bond" with them.
Now he rides them to battle on cavalry-charges 20 miles under the sea against submersible Tau-suits. That's how it goes by the book. The truth!
OK, OK, but you guys are missing a possibility here. A sith dark lord who succumbs to the temptations of the warp, and becomes a sith but with gifts of Chaos. Imagine a Khorne or Tzeench Sith Lord....You figure if Jedi were fighting Marines some of them might jump ship to Chaos, just for the powers they would gain alone.
Grey Templar wrote:except Jedi arn't psykers so wouldn't get much of the deadly gifts.
this is also assuming the Chaos gods didn't eat them(they probably eat most of them and maybe keep a couple as pets)
You don't need to be a Psyker to get Chaos goodies. Also, inversely, some Space Marines might be midichorlian-compatible.. Space Marine Jedis for the win!
K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect? Now just picture the sith lord as a librairian or whoever. The jedi are elite they still come with the troopers and they watch eachothers backs . Just like marines to the psyker. So what your going to get is a giant bloody mess with people flying everywhere . gak blowing up like any normal war. What It will this whole thing will rely on is the basic fundamentals of combat because everyone is forgetting that they are all still human to a point. So the victor will be based on the battle plan, moral tactical advantages and of course luck. A bloody messs and that's it.
betrayal and ambush deals more with tactical advantage not skill. and the troopers were traditionally with the jedi yatta yatta, high command was infiltrated by the enemy, hence their total destruction.
Oh, one more thing, why Jedi lose...
They don't exist anymore. Their galaxy is far, far away and all this happened a "long time ago" ( maybe thousands to millions of years ago ) from our perspective.
And 40k is 38.000 years in the future, so...
I have already said this and I will say it again....
People at Lucas Arts have come out and said that in the movies the Jedi have become out of tune with the force due to their relying on technology and things like midichlorians, which don't have that much impact on the force. They lost sight, which is why the Emperor was able to mask his presence as a sith lord right under their noses. The Jedi in the movies are suppose to be frail compared to the Jedi before them in terms of them being able to use the force and apply it properly.
The clones were designed genetically to be resistant to mind reading and since no one could detect the dark side influence over the whole thing, not even Yoda could, no one knew it was coming.
Lucas is just a terrible writer and did not really get this point across properly.
larose14 wrote:K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect?
Mace Windu was forced to jump away from a flamethrower because it went AROUND his lightsaber. If it was any other Jedi that wasn't a master they've have roasted alive. Force Deflect doesn't work on explosions.
larose14 wrote:K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect?
Mace Windu was forced to jump away from a flamethrower because it went AROUND his lightsaber. If it was any other Jedi that wasn't a master they've have roasted alive. Force Deflect doesn't work on explosions.
K watch my posted video a few responses up, thats a video about the time which the jedi were in tune with the force and clearly out do those from the movie.(awesome video regardless) Anyway even then in the old republic when they were at war with the sith they had troopers just like marines have librarians geesus this has to be taken into context of war.
So it seems one jedi accompanies a commando unit vs a librarian and a tactical squad of marines. That's how you have to view this argument. That's just a good fight in general. In open war troopers and jedi have strength in support from jedi/ trooper numbers. Marines is giant army of special forces which means a lot of troopers are dying . but so are the marines . Jedi and Liberians are ic's capable of slaughtering but also subject to misfortunes such as heavy weaponry and each other .
larose14 wrote:K this video settles it all it proves jedi and sith aren't as weak
To blasts as everyone seems to presume. Force deflect?
Mace Windu was forced to jump away from a flamethrower because it went AROUND his lightsaber. If it was any other Jedi that wasn't a master they've have roasted alive. Force Deflect doesn't work on explosions.
No, but some Jedi can absorb energy. One jedi, Corran Horn - I forget which book it was, but he survived a massive explosion that leveled the building he was in by absorbing the energy of the explosion and channeling it upward. One of his ancestors took a hit from a lightsaber and then drained its batteries dry. Against a Jedi like that, flamers and plasma weapons wouldn't be all that effective.
CiaranAnnrach wrote:Against a Jedi like that, flamers and plasma weapons wouldn't be all that effective.
As bolters are standard-issue, I think Horn has other issues.
The energy redistribution was also something that took a great deal of focus/concentration, a great 1v1 ability, but less an asset against flying chainswords and grenade-bullets.
ctlc wrote:Dear exterminatus... meet the deathstar. GG
Not really..... The imperium could destroy an entire planet it is a more of a pyschological tool to demoralize any hopes of a rebellion as normal people would know about this.
And the imperium ships would just laugh at the pathetic attempts to have superweapons pointed at them oh look the laser has to charge every 3 hours OH NO.
Plus this thread is about Space Marines vs Jedi, you can start a thread of its own. Though don't be surprised by the hatefest from users.
And how has this thread survived for so long D:
No, but some Jedi can absorb energy. One jedi, Corran Horn - I forget which book it was, but he survived a massive explosion that leveled the building he was in by absorbing the energy of the explosion and channeling it upward. One of his ancestors took a hit from a lightsaber and then drained its batteries dry. Against a Jedi like that, flamers and plasma weapons wouldn't be all that effective.
And that's 1, maybe 2 Jedi amongst thousands?
If you start getting to claim special fancy powers that a few Jedi have, than so do the Space Marines. This battle is NOT between named characters of doom, or between Jedi leading their clones against the Space Marines. It's about a standard Jedi and a Standard Space Marine. In the video posted, the Marines would NOT be fighting the lead Sith guy, but instead his small group of lackeys, who seemed to be going down fairly quickly even to basic clones.
THe most sensible options continues to be that a single Jedi can beat a single Marine, but against a unit of Marines would be overwhelmed.
No, but some Jedi can absorb energy. One jedi, Corran Horn - I forget which book it was, but he survived a massive explosion that leveled the building he was in by absorbing the energy of the explosion and channeling it upward. One of his ancestors took a hit from a lightsaber and then drained its batteries dry. Against a Jedi like that, flamers and plasma weapons wouldn't be all that effective.
And that's 1, maybe 2 Jedi amongst thousands?
If you start getting to claim special fancy powers that a few Jedi have, than so do the Space Marines. This battle is NOT between named characters of doom, or between Jedi leading their clones against the Space Marines. It's about a standard Jedi and a Standard Space Marine. In the video posted, the Marines would NOT be fighting the lead Sith guy, but instead his small group of lackeys, who seemed to be going down fairly quickly even to basic clones.
THe most sensible options continues to be that a single Jedi can beat a single Marine, but against a unit of Marines would be overwhelmed.
Yea unfortuately the thread digressed to librarians nuking entire quadrants with the warp blah blah .
So the warzone scenario seemed more like a Feesable middle ground as each side needs to depend on those around them
No, but some Jedi can absorb energy. One jedi, Corran Horn - I forget which book it was, but he survived a massive explosion that leveled the building he was in by absorbing the energy of the explosion and channeling it upward. One of his ancestors took a hit from a lightsaber and then drained its batteries dry. Against a Jedi like that, flamers and plasma weapons wouldn't be all that effective.
And that's 1, maybe 2 Jedi amongst thousands?
If you start getting to claim special fancy powers that a few Jedi have, than so do the Space Marines. This battle is NOT between named characters of doom, or between Jedi leading their clones against the Space Marines. It's about a standard Jedi and a Standard Space Marine. In the video posted, the Marines would NOT be fighting the lead Sith guy, but instead his small group of lackeys, who seemed to be going down fairly quickly even to basic clones.
THe most sensible options continues to be that a single Jedi can beat a single Marine, but against a unit of Marines would be overwhelmed.
His ability was a bit rare, I'll give you that. (Though, IIRC, Darth Vader could do the same thing.) But for all intents and purposes, he WAS an average Jedi of average power, and for his special ability he couldn't use telekenetic powers at all. He mainly starred in the Rogue Squadron series as an X-Wing pilot, and the whole Jedi thing came later. And at no point was he considered a particularly powerful Jedi. Rather he was one of Luke's first students, and ended up leaving before he could complete his training when his wife was kidnapped.
My points are two. There is no true "average Jedi" - they all specialized in something. Something they were good at. So to toss out their "special powers", or the things they excelled at, makes the whole argument biased towards the marines.
Second, this whole scenario is completely flawed, as no matter one fraction asserts as the reason their side would win, the other side can come up with a counter for it. And without a scenario, it's worse. Are they fighting in an open field? Marines. Building or dense jungle? Jedi. Is it a squad of bolter marines, or assault marines? Are the marines kitted out to fight Jedi? Does the Jedi have the chance to prepare special equipment prior to fighting the Marines? What powers does the Jedi have, and how adept is he? (And what quantifies the power level of the "average" Jedi?) Has the Jedi had a premonition about the battle and what his opponents can/will do? If so, can the Jedi play to his strengths, or does he have to fight on the Marine's terms?
These reasons make this sort of argument ultimately pointless. There is no truly absolute answer. Only "it depends on the situation".
ctlc wrote:Dear exterminatus... meet the deathstar. GG
Quite frankly, the Deathstar blows compared to Exterminatus.
yeah, it can totally obliterate a planet, but that is one space station that can only be in one place at one time.
Exterminatus can be carried out by any ship with Torpedo tubes. which is practically all of them.
and if the planet itself has to be destroyed, and not just every living thing down to viruses, there are Clyclonic torpedos which do basically the same thing the Deathstar does.
Crom wrote: Ever see the short animated video of Mace Windu, where he basically destroys a whole droid army with out his light saber? This is all clone wars canon approved by Lucas, so it is an actual representation of Jedi power.
No, that's an actual representation of Mace Windu's power, who was one of the most potent Jedi Masters and the only practitioner of Vaapad ever.
May as well put him up against Horus or a Daemon Prince or the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChrisWWII wrote:THe most sensible options continues to be that a single Jedi can beat a single Marine, but against a unit of Marines would be overwhelmed.
Commisar Wolfie wrote:Because no one can except that my imaginary friend is better then their imaginary friend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way Im pro 40K
Why don't someone do 40k vs. Star Wars vs. Halo vs. Star Trek movie?
Imagine the money earned, it would beat Avatar on so many levels...
Let us all writ to Cameron...
Commisar Wolfie wrote:Because no one can except that my imaginary friend is better then their imaginary friend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way Im pro 40K
Why don't someone do 40k vs. Star Wars vs. Halo vs. Star Trek movie?
Imagine the money earned, it would beat Avatar on so many levels...
Let us all writ to Cameron...
Crom wrote: Ever see the short animated video of Mace Windu, where he basically destroys a whole droid army with out his light saber? This is all clone wars canon approved by Lucas, so it is an actual representation of Jedi power.
No, that's an actual representation of Mace Windu's power, who was one of the most potent Jedi Masters and the only practitioner of Vaapad ever.
Or a single primaris psyker / librarian with a force sword and the right powers. Even force swords without power fields can block power weapons-- so they'd also be able to block lightsabers, which can be blocked by the Star Wars equivalent fo force weapons (which are called... *drumroll* force weapons).
Psychic powers such as being able to see many seconds into the future, illusions, time manipulation, or something simpler like making an opponent's blood boil with a thought, all could lead to a quickly defeated Jedi.
I can see a jedi getting owned hand to hand with a space marine with a power weapon but if he used his powers and the marine used a bolter it'll be close.
And besides aren't the Eldar Pyskers like Jedi? They use lighting and all that crap.
Yeah, that's the part where I always get lost in these SPAZ MREEN VS X threads.
The distinction invariably comes down to 'X' being faster, having special magic powers, being some sort of ninja, and therefore able to trump Marines by throat-punching them to death from fifty feet away.
But Eldar can do all that stuff. They are, quite literally, magical super ninjas with super armor and shields. And, by majority accounts, outnumbered Space Marines plow straight through them.
ctlc wrote:Dear exterminatus... meet the deathstar. GG
Quite frankly, the Deathstar blows compared to Exterminatus.
yeah, it can totally obliterate a planet, but that is one space station that can only be in one place at one time.
Exterminatus can be carried out by any ship with Torpedo tubes. which is practically all of them.
and if the planet itself has to be destroyed, and not just every living thing down to viruses, there are Clyclonic torpedos which do basically the same thing the Deathstar does.
There are plenty ships in the SW universe that can destroy the surface of planets and all life on them, the death star can actually destroy the planet outright and the sun crusher can destroy whole systems. The sun crusher is a small fast ship too. It could zip in and out of systems and drop torpedoes in the sun and white dwarf them, destroying the whole system.
Then again, I guess this is going off topic since it is strictly Jedi Vs Marines and not Star Wars versus 40K...
Melissia wrote:Do the Space Marines have heavy weapons?
Do the space marines all have power weapons. Are the jedi blind? Are the jedi black? are the jedi holding a double light saber?
Do the space marines have a oribital bombardment array? These questions should be answered. Plus a space marine never travels alone.
Luke Skywalker Vs. a Master Librarian, versus Mike Ditka....
Who would win?
I will say that when you try to use the canon argument that only the movies count as what the Jedi are, it is invalid. There is so much more (and better in my opinion) material that makes up the Star Wars Universe. The video games have better story lines. Lucas is a horrible writer, and totally misses the points he was trying to make. So, when you take the better story, the more in depth character development along the framework Lucas made, you should just consider it. The movies represent Jedi who are weak with the force, since they have lost touch. Even at the end Yoda realizes this, and Yoda realizes that wen you die, you don't actually die in the classical sense, that you become one with the Force. In the second movie when Anakin is killing those tuskan raiders, Yoda was meditating and heard Qi Gon Gin's voice yell, "Anakin Noooo!." Yoda, then started to realize the Jedi had lost touch with the force. He realize they could come back. This is why when Yoda and Obiwan die they disappear instead of just rotting corpses. Yoda taught this trick to Obiwan, and of course Vader discovered it on his own in his meditation chamber.
No other Jedi or sith disappear when they die but them. This represents how they lost touch with the force. It also coincides with Exar Kun, who also knew this and his spirit comes back 1,000 years later and influences one of Luke's students into delving into the dark side, and he eventually possesses Luke himself. This is all the intention of Lucas but since his writing skills are that of a high schooler at best, it is hard to piece this all together.
So, while that may not be canon in some opinions, it sure as hell fits into the canon story line, which Lucas approved. If I cared enough more I would google to dig up the interview from the guy at Lucas Arts that goes into how every third party comic, book, animated, series and so forth is Lucas approved, and licensed.
So to beat a dead horse/thread, talking to the local star wars geek at work, he tells me that everything under Lucas books is canon, and including the 13 book series where Chewbacca dies. Which relies on every other book for it's back story. So, there is some canon in it.....
Crom wrote:So to beat a dead horse/thread, talking to the local star wars geek at work, he tells me that everything under Lucas books is canon, and including the 13 book series where Chewbacca dies. Which relies on every other book for it's back story. So, there is some canon in it.....
Now FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!
Well, if all that is canon, than the canon is simply contradictory.
It's a classic "fanboy"-affliction to "rationalize" the flaws inherent in your favorite pet-universe with a self-made, "superiour" vision that may or may not be hidden within the material. You see it all the time in 40K too. It's a beautiful thing actually, as it shows capacity to focus on the "good" and .. well .. improvise on the "less good" to draw the most possible enjoyment from a past-time. But trying to build a valid argument from what you believe may have been implied is a ticket to disappointment.
Whether or not some odd spin-off book or not is "canon" is fairly irrelevant. No marketing-expert would ever flaunt something as explicitly "non-canon". It still remains that the navel of the Star Wars franchise are the movies. It is a highly visual creation born from the narrative fundus of hollywood storytelling. You cannot simply "disregard" the movies by arguing that some other author has captured the "true vision" of Lucas better than Lucas himself might have. If anything, say that you enjoy the spin-off work more.
And Lucas is well known to be a control-freak. He is not a talent-less high school student either. Trust that everything you see in the movies is 100% as intended by Lucas. No "missing the target due to bad experssion" involved. And this cinematic vision of George Lucas, which admittedly follows the need of cinematic narration, reguires, in the name of creating suspense, that Jedi, even advanced ones, are "challenged" by things like Jango Fett, a fierce intergalactic beast or "nasty Droidicas". To say those are insignificant threats to a Jedi would be foolish, because they were created solely for the purpose of creating a challenge for the Jedi in the story. Thus, this sets the "intended" power-level for the Jedi as, fully intended and perfectly implemented, by the vision of George Lucas.
I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
Again, I could care less who wins, but enjoy the conversation. I am just pointing out the books, comics, and video games are in fact, canon. I have to honestly disagree with you. Lucas, like many people in a creative power position has tunnel vision, and sees things unilaterally, and I think he writes his stories like crap. The movies he did not direct or write are the best ones, where he was just executive producer. It really isn't an insult to his intelligence, more so his creative developing skills. I don't think intelligence has much to do with writing science fiction, at least they aren't mutually exclusive. You didn't see Einstein writing fiction, or Steven Hawking writing space science fiction novels.
Crom wrote:I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
But 40K makes no claim to coherency. Back in an interview on his script for the 40K movie, Dan Abnett actually went on record how the BL were lobbying and bullying GW management for a while until they specifically got the green-light to deviate from the "official" fluff (e.g. the games, codexes, etc..) to accommodate the different needs of creating a story in a different medium (e.g. a novel, comic, or later a movie). They actually, purposefully create "different visions" of the same core IP.
On the other hand, assuming all SW products are truly intended to be a singular, non-contradictory version of the same thing, than they've failed. Jedi are significantly weaker in the movies than they are in many books or comics. If these contradictions are "canon", than the label "canon" itself becomes irrelevant because it covers contradictory and mutually exclusive elements.
Crom wrote:I guess books are now published by Lucas Books, and they are canonized as being legit in the SW universe and have been for some time. The argument came down to, all the people that were for the marines claiming that Jedi are weak in the movies and everything else is non canon, which is not true (or so I am told).
This also applies to 40K, where as if the fluff for the Marines were really 100% true, how could any other race in the 40K universe even hold up to them, besides maybe Chaos?
But 40K makes no claim to coherency. Back in an interview on his script for the 40K movie, Dan Abnett actually went on record how the BL were lobbying and bullying GW management for a while until they specifically got the green-light to deviate from the "official" fluff (e.g. the games, codexes, etc..) to accommodate the different needs of creating a story in a different medium (e.g. a novel, comic, or later a movie). They actually, purposefully create "different visions" of the same core IP.
On the other hand, assuming all SW products are truly intended to be a singular, non-contradictory version of the same thing, than they've failed. Jedi are significantly weaker in the movies than they are in many books or comics. If these contradictions are "canon", than the label "canon" itself becomes irrelevant because it covers contradictory and mutually exclusive elements.
See, actually it is intended that the Jedi in the movies are weaker. This is why Lucas is a bad writer. There are references to this in the books, which are canonized. The Jedi of the movies became too reliant on technology, science, and social things, and lost touch with the force. Midichlorians are not the defining factor of the force, rather a side effect. This is why the Sith so easily infiltrated the Republic and went unnoticed. Whenever a Jedi are near each other they can sense their presence, they can also sense if they are light or dark Jedi. The most powerful Jedi of the council during the movies were even trumped, Yoda himself only realized this after he heard Qui Gon Gin's voice in the 2nd movie.
It is not contradictory, it is suppose to be like that. That is why the Jedi and the Sith in the great war (which is canon for the video game The Old Republic due out soon) are much more powerful. The Jedi of the movies sat in 1000 years of peace. Even the Roman Empire fell due to it's long time in peace, and the choices the rulers made. During the war they were much more in tune with the Force, which is why when the sith get with in proximity of the Jedi, the Jedi can sense them. Where as in the movies the Emperor easily infiltrates them and uses the dark side to pull his ruse on them. Building a scenario for war, having a clone army built, manipulating the Senate. If the Jedi hadn't lost touch with the force they should have picked up on these things and influences.
So, to sum it all up, the Jedi in the movies are remarkably weaker than the Jedi before and after them. This also ties in to how Anakin was suppose to "balance" the force. The Jedi lost touch, and since the Force is much like a religion, when you look at science and technology it tends to separate someone from their spirituality. These are all points Lucas was trying to make, but failed to do so.
Now, it has also been stated that even though Lucas canonized the books, comics, and movies, there is some sort of rating system on how much canon it is, and Lucas also says he reserves the right to change it. So, I guess you have to take it at it's current state until the man (Lucas that is) decides to put out more movies.
Jedi in the movies still die like chumps to the equivalent of 6 Kasrkin (Operation 66 Clone Troopers just gun them down like LOLWUT). A Space Marine, primarily due to armor, would kill his way right through a whole squad of clones and keep on going (and this isn't Fanboy talk, if Clone Trooper = power armored Kasrkin sergeant then the 40k fiction is rife with accounts of Space Marines killing through dozens of elite human troopers before being brought down). And again, this is the average Marine. The Operation 66 troopers were gunning down some pretty elite, near-character Jedi. Not Anakin or Yoda level, but definitely not Random Force Pud #3, either.
Character Jedi, with layers and layers of ablative plot-armor, fare much better and no doubt can kill infinite numbers of D00Dz before running out of steam. Character Space Marines, however, benefit from the same; Mace Windu has to chop his way through Calgar's Iron Halo, Crux Terminatus, redundant lung, and secondary heart before Calgar gives up the ghost. Calgar simply has to touch him with his Power Finger or any of the limitless bolter rounds spewing from his underslung storm shotguns to make Windu explode. Maybe Windu uses all his cooldowns and squeaks it, maybe he realizes Calgar is his spiritual liege, who knows.
Even if the movies are 'rong' and history Jedi are much more bettah, I still don't see that being enough of a multiple where the average Jedi is so vastly superior to their current portrayal that they go from dying to 6 D00Dz to killing entire cities with their Force one-ness.
Non-character Jedi need a significant upgrade to simply be on par with a single marine, and again armor plays a big role here; a single shot/strike slipping through a Jedi's defenses means he's nearly dead. Space Marines bounce small arms all day.
Though it does bear mention that, in the execution of Order 66, the majority of those Jedi killed were shot in the back. I can wipe out entire lances of tanks on the table-top with a single guy with a heavy weapon... who's standing behind the tanks.
A Kasrkin with a hellgun that caps a SM in the back of the head is going to have a dead, braincooked SM. Especially if the SM took his helmet off, again, to pose menacingly for "Aquilas & CogSkulls" magazine or something.
I think some of you guys are seriously overrating Jedi here
yes, legendary Jedi Masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu would be way too much for a average SM to handle
but this thread is about average Jedi vs. average SM right?
average Jedi SUCK...the Order 66 (Jedi Purge) scenes in Revenge of the Sith show that Jedi CANNOT block anything and everything
if you watch from 1:10, the Jedi is Ki Adi Mundi (a Jedi council member)...he's only able to a block a few rapid-fire blaster shots before the clone troopers mow him down
an unarmed Jango Fett destroys 4 Jedi wielding lightsabres
an average SM would destroy an average Jedi
a more interesting battle would be between a powerful Jedi Master and a Chief Librarian (my money's on the Librarian)
Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
Well if the fight gets too much the Jedi can take inspiraiton from their master and save their own skin by running and hiding on a swamp planet - and let the galaxy burn - at least he stays safe......
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
What.
No.
Stormtroopers are not powerful enough to crush a human skull in their bare, unaugmented hands. Nor do they have all the various abilities of the Astartes.
In fact, at the time of A New Hope, most stormtroopers were less effective and less trained and more poorly equipped than the Imperial Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soladrin wrote:Someone should draw 40k Guts...
I want to see a dude with a 5 meter chainsword, and a powerfist with mounted Battle Cannon.
I'm gonna make a statline for him actually.... *heads off to proposed rules*
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
No. That is an unfair comparison. stormtroopers equal Imperial guardsmen. Space marines, however, are more like an army of ripped jango fetts that spit acid, wear power armor, and have walking coffins armed to the teef.
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
No. That is an unfair comparison. stormtroopers equal Imperial guardsmen. Space marines, however, are more like an army of ripped jango fetts that spit acid, wear power armor, and have walking coffins armed to the teef.
What storm troopers we talking about? The elite clones I say would be a step up from Guardsmen but a step below Marines. Obviously the Marines have way more genetic modifications and augmentations, but the clones were also genetically engineered for combat. They were also trained since birth (err, birth? or do you say like creation date?) in the arts of combat, and genetically predisposed to being warriors. Now at the same time, they were also made for quantity over quality, but with quality also being kept in mind.
A Space Marine would stomp the ever living snot out of a bunch of storm troopers.
What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.
b1soul wrote:
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not
This is something else I find curious. A New Hope/Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi, the storm troopers were by and large worthless as anything other than a tarpit, and couldn't hit the broad side of a land raider. But in Clone Wars, they were crack shots and somewhat badass. Surely I'm not the only one who sees something wrong with this picture.
Not sure how a tactical squad would do agains "psykers" but how about Thousand Sons, or Demons, Grey Knights, or evening it out a bit toss in some Primarchs
THE JEDI ARE GOING TO GET DESTROYED INSTANTLY! A clone like Boba Fett or his normal human father Jango woop jedi for fun. Now image what a super human space marine would do. Even in 1vs1 they would be able to kill jedi.
CiaranAnnrach wrote:This is something else I find curious. A New Hope/Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi, the storm troopers were by and large worthless as anything other than a tarpit, and couldn't hit the broad side of a land raider. But in Clone Wars, they were crack shots and somewhat badass. Surely I'm not the only one who sees something wrong with this picture.
After the clone wars, eventually they stopped ordering clones for the sake of saving money and recruited from the population. They poorly trained tehm and poorly equipped them-- only the most prestigious and elite stormtrooper units stayed purely clone.
CiaranAnnrach wrote:What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.
How do you explain Jango Fett's trouncing of 4 lightsabre-wielding Jedi?
Jango was practically unarmed except for a rock. Pictures are on the previous page.
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
You are not to much into 40k are you?
They are a lot more then mere solders, they are masters of all warfare.
And they were able to defeat such threats that would make even Jedi piss his pants ( Chaos spawns ).
CiaranAnnrach wrote:What is it exactly that people have against reading the thread and processing the information within it before posting? Everyone likes bringing up that the Jedi lost to Storm Troopers in the movies, but conveniently forgets (or ignores) the several posts others have made saying the Jedi at the time of the movies were considerably weaker than they should have been due to being out-of-touch with the force. It's a poor comparison and a poor representation of the Jedi, when you consider the realm of works outside of the movies.
How do you explain Jango Fett's trouncing of 4 lightsabre-wielding Jedi?
Jango was practically unarmed except for a rock. Pictures are on the previous page.
Jango Fett lived at the time of the movies, when they were considerably weaker than they should have been. Even though the comic came prior to the movies, I doubt the overall decline in the Jedi's power happened within a single generation.
If you pitted Jango Fett against the Jedi a few thousand years prior, or a few generations afterwards, I doubt that fight would have ended up as it did - when the Jedi were more in-touch with the force and considerably stronger.
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not
Lmao, very good point! Still, chuck enough enough Gretchin at a bunch o' marines... maybe...
I have so many arguements in my head that could, maybe help you to see where I'm coming from, but I'm struggling to put them on to this post whilst ensuring that they make sense...
- Storm Troopers are clones of one persons abilities, marines have organs that are clones of one persons abilities
- Storm Troopers were brought in to defeat and replace the droid army, Marines were brought in to replace standard troopers and trounce everything they could and be the first in to the fray, blah blah blah
- Comparable strategy between both 'characters'
Back on the Jedi vs Marine topic and away from the Storm Trooper / Marine character comparison arguement (which I acknowledge that I brought about) -
- Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds
- Jedi's in pyjamas move with a greater amount of stealth than marines in clunking power armour
- Jedi mind tricks would work on standard marines
Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.
Any body fancy pitching a 1v1 arena battle of SM Librarian, with no guns and damn strong ccw vs normal marine with bolter? That may help us to pitch the various skills against each other. I would, but don't have the codex's for them.
Any chance of getting this as a poll so we can see a running tally of the # votes?
CiaranAnnrach wrote:
If you pitted Jango Fett against the Jedi a few thousand years prior, or a few generations afterwards, I doubt that fight would have ended up as it did - when the Jedi were more in-touch with the force and considerably stronger.
perhaps, but that fight occurred when Count Dooku was young (the Jedi who says "what have we done")
could you please provide quotes to support your theory that the Jedi were weak because they were out of touch with the Force?
kitch102 wrote:Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds
in WH40k, bolt rounds are described as mini rocket propelled grenades
the last thing you'd want to do is "block" bolt rounds with your lightsabre
let's say an explosive rocket is flying toward you, would you want to "block" it with your lightsabre? no...it would explode in your face
Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.
frankly, if Jedi were that powerful, they wouldn't have died in droves during Order 66
kitch102 wrote:Jedi ftw, all the way. Marines are no more than storm troopers, effectively. Maybe the spec op storm troopers that are abit more of a thorn in the power armour
Stormtroopers lost to Ewoks
SM would not
Lmao, very good point! Still, chuck enough enough Gretchin at a bunch o' marines... maybe...
I have so many arguements in my head that could, maybe help you to see where I'm coming from, but I'm struggling to put them on to this post whilst ensuring that they make sense...
- Storm Troopers are clones of one persons abilities, marines have organs that are clones of one persons abilities
- Storm Troopers were brought in to defeat and replace the droid army, Marines were brought in to replace standard troopers and trounce everything they could and be the first in to the fray, blah blah blah
- Comparable strategy between both 'characters'
Back on the Jedi vs Marine topic and away from the Storm Trooper / Marine character comparison arguement (which I acknowledge that I brought about) -
- Light saber would vapourise bolter rounds
- Jedi's in pyjamas move with a greater amount of stealth than marines in clunking power armour
- Jedi mind tricks would work on standard marines
Imagine that I'm a Jedi, round a corner, see you, force choke, break your neck which severs all brain activity... done imho.
Any body fancy pitching a 1v1 arena battle of SM Librarian, with no guns and damn strong ccw vs normal marine with bolter? That may help us to pitch the various skills against each other. I would, but don't have the codex's for them.
Any chance of getting this as a poll so we can see a running tally of the # votes?
Did you even read the thread all those points were argued and refuted. Bolter rounds explode in contact with lightsabre shrapnel hit jedi jedi dies. Power armor does not slow down Marines due to back pack and black carapace, why it is called power armor is because it is powered armor. Marines go through years of training to fight of demons and Xenos tricks, mind tricks work on the weak minded, not even working well on clones.
Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.
Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.
And comparing Space Marines and Jedi is not ridiculous? For all the reasons you just stated?
if the entire jedi order was up against equal numbers of Space marines on open ground about 1K away from each other then the space marines would win hands down. The lightsabers wouldn't be able to block the bolter shots because it would just go straight through it. Even if the lightsaber managed to melt the bolter shot then it would explode and kill the jedi anyway
perhaps, but that fight occurred when Count Dooku was young (the Jedi who says "what have we done")
could you please provide quotes to support your theory that the Jedi were weak because they were out of touch with the Force?
The argument was made several times earlier in the thread, and posted some evidence there. I'm not going to repeat it here. This is why I said that people seem to have a hard time reading the entire thread prior to posting.
As a clarification, I really don't care who would win in a fight. I just don't like this attitude of ignoring what others have posted, either consciously or because they didn't bother to read it. If people actually read the thread, we wouldn't still be getting "oh, but jedi lost to storm troopers!" posts 17 pages in, when that point has been contested several times now without an adequate response to it.
in WH40k, bolt rounds are described as mini rocket propelled grenades
Didn't know that - cheers
frankly, if Jedi were that powerful, they wouldn't have died in droves during Order 66
Thing is that they are that powerful, they just didn't know about the betrayal. Pretty sure there's a Horus comparison here somewhere... Like the Emperor being practically dead, and the Marine legions being weakened / disbanded, comparably to how the Jedi order was snuffed.
Did you even read the thread all those points were argued and refuted. Bolter rounds explode in contact with lightsabre shrapnel hit jedi jedi dies. Power armor does not slow down Marines due to back pack and black carapace, why it is called power armor is because it is powered armor. Marines go through years of training to fight of demons and Xenos tricks, mind tricks work on the weak minded, not even working well on clones.
Storm Troopers are soldiers comparining them to genetically engineered super soldiers like marines is ridiculous. Space Marines do not have the same stategy as they are shock troops taking no part in wars of attrition like normal soldiers, they also have better equipment, training, and abilities.
Do you mean - did I read 16 entire pages before I posted? Honestly, no I didn't. Have you ever tried that? I tried, got lost in my own thoughouts and arguements and decided that I'd post my views. If anyone cares enough that I didn't read 16 pages before putting my 10 pence worth forward then ban me from this site, or politely say - "Gone over that, check out page 'whatever' mate".
It does me tree in how people get so up in arms about this !
Now, back on point. Mind tricks would work on Marines, they frequently do if you read through the Horus Heresy series. I'm not able to refer to one particular instance, but given that the Thousand Sons were a Legion ofing Psykers, I'm pretty sure you'll find something there. Then factor in all the special equipment available to every army in the 40k Universe that affects a unit / models ability to fight (the DE have a mask that stops people attacking if they fail a Ld test as one example) then I'm sure that I have another strong arguement for this pointless bloody debate.
On the power armour point, I wasn't saying that the armour makes them slow moving, but is it loud? Ummmm...hmmm... yes I think it is! Would you hear it coming from a way off? Pretty sure you would! That was the point I was making.
And comparing Space Marines and Jedi is not ridiculous? For all the reasons you just stated?
Cheers Nerivant.
The Jedi order is akin to a chapter full of librarians, each of which has the same martial skill as a standard marine but with a nice little something extra, minus the 'as standard' ranged capabilities, granted, though don't forget that there's nothing stopping a Jedi picking up a bolter / equivalent (as Obi Wan did vs General Grievous) or force throwing some ruddy great rock at your thick ass SM skull. A standard Marine can't just 'pick up a force power' in the same manner, ergo the JEdi has skills of equal or slightly greater power and the ability to do everything a Marine does. Sure, the Marine is tougher due to armour, but the Jedi is, ultimately, a sprinting, cart wheeling, mile high jumping, tank busting, army destroying son-of-a-bitch.
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Lol! Brilliant!
Watto the Toydarian I think he was called, his race was immune to psychic powers. They'd work on Marine's as the 40k Universe allows psychic powers to be used on Marines.
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
Actually I think the space marine libraian is more powerful then a jedi. Librains are constantly on guard against being corrupted by chaos. Do some all yes just like some jedi fall to the "dark side". The difference being Chaos are a group of Gods while the dark side is more akin to the darkest desires in everybody. Plus seeing as how space marines battle deamons and manage to pull out plenty of wins then jedi really won't give them much trouble. Black templars will simply yell "Burn the witch" and be done with it.
Nerivant wrote:Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
Episode 4, scene when ben and luke approach the town. Yes, ben was a master, but you were thinking about clone troopers anyway, and there is a difference other than c-troopers being clones.
Nerivant wrote:Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
Episode 4, scene when ben and luke approach the town. Yes, ben was a master, but you were thinking about clone troopers anyway, and there is a difference other than c-troopers being clones.
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
That i know is bull I have read all of the storm trooper books and it clearly says they are militamen and they do not go extensive indoctrination. The only group that i know of that is even consider elite is the orginal group lead by Commander Cody who leads the 212th who was by far the only remaining Clone trooper regiment that remained. Because afterwards the Imperials (Starwars) paid for cheaper and cheaper training, they were not badasses like they were in the clone wars. Helk most of them are man at arms that really aren't that good at anything..
To Quote Commander Cody
Cody wrote:According to Cody, the Empire's decision to recruit soldiers had a negative impact on the Imperial Army's operational effectiveness to a significant degree. His perception of non-clone humans as inferior soldiers and "expendable buffoons" was intensified when he saw a recruit hit his head on a blast door during maneuvers. Cody's frustrations with enlisted troopers, combined with his nostalgic memories of the former Clone Army, ultimately caused him to lament on how the Stormtrooper Corps was an insult and an embarrassment to the legacy of the Grand Army of the Republic, which he described as a once truly incredible fighting force
I believe the term owned comes into mind.
They do not undergo deeper than spacemarines. Space Marines literally are broken down completely. Space Marines are the elite of humanity, and they cannot be easily swayed compared to the storm troopers who can barely hit a side of a barn.
Space marines undergo enough things to kill humans, but they are kept alive by mere apothercaries. Storm Troopers do not go through near death over and over again, They do not see daemons that would scare a normal guardsmen into insanity.
Face it that point you made was a bad one.
Libarains on the other hand have to deal with everything daemons trying to prey upon him and everything.
Space marines have to deal with temptations from the chaos gods, and that by itself is a feat.
If you reference DOW or CS. Goto as an example of Space Marines falling to chaos please find a different manner thank you.
Now point has been made. Space Marines psychological, physically broken before indoctrination they know no fear and they kill because they must for humanitys safety. Please read the space marine codex.
Honestly we're all arguing in circles again. There has been the same arguments over and over with no clear answer I think we all need to agree to disagree.
Nicholas wrote:Honestly we're all arguing in circles again. There has been the same arguments over and over with no clear answer I think we all need to agree to disagree.
I agree. If it was all out war the marines win, Single Marine vs Jedi, Jedi wins only because jedi unlike space marines have light sabers and space marines would most likely be in close combat, but at distance marine wins, so it really matters where the marine is at the time.
Chapter wise if the entire chapter is fielded 1,000 marines vs 1,000 jedi. Jedi lose, Because marines have something called artillery and tank support. And the Space Marine navy would quicly dispatch of the Jedi fleet very quickly
Storm troopers are genetically altered to be more obedient, which actually makes them more open to mind control as long as the person doing so alters the mind in a way that makes them think they are still following orders. These are not the droids you are looking for, move along.
For this to go anywhere further, somebody has to quantify the 'average' Jedi's power at the height of the Jedis' collective power.
Ep. 1-3 Jedi would probably be beaten by a single Tactical marine. They would almost certainly be beaten by two Tactical marines firing bolters from different angles. Character, or "elite" Jedi would better, but Anakin and Windu have to be compared to Calgar and Lysander.
Ep. 4-6 Jedi are all 'character' Jedi but even here the power level doesn't seem that impressive. Certainly not relative to 'character' Marines. Post-Jedi Academy Jedi like Mara Jade or Kyp Durran seem 'aight', but again I don't think they'd have a very good time dealing with 8 foot tall Supermen firing grenades. Powerful cabals like the Witches of Dathomir do seem impressive, but Marines have been cleansing planets filled with psyker covens and sorcerers for millennia; all falls before the Emperor's holy boltgun slingers.
So somebody has to establish, on average, how impressive Jedi were 'back in the day'.
schadenfreude wrote:Storm troopers are genetically altered to be more obedient, which actually makes them more open to mind control as long as the person doing so alters the mind in a way that makes them think they are still following orders. These are not the droids you are looking for, move along.
not all the time some are just regular human volunteers, the Orginal Clones are a minority, and the newer clones are not as good as the ones from before instead they are repurposed soldiers that literally suck. (not joking)
Jedi back before the movies timelines were alot better and were incredible powerful now they have difficulty picking up an x-wing.
kitch102 wrote:I'm thinking that we should forget I ever mentioned Storm Troopers
That was my bad, statement retracted, I was focusing on what I believed to be a direct comparison in their creation (Clone Wars era).
I do stand by my view that the jedi would win though, it stands to reason that they would have fought something akin to Space Marines in their time.
As for Artillery, tanks etc, Jedi have taken care of many an armoured column in their time, man on tank or in some kind of fighter jet.
I'm backing out of this debate now...!
Yes because the Space Marines lack air support. /sarcasm off
anti air is not too common space marine vechiles lascannons would take care of the jedi fighters. And the rocket launchers would destroy jedi fighters like no tomorrow.
Are we acutally going to start debating the tactics involved in this whole thing now? Why not play out an apocalypse game with air / anti air et al and see how many of those units survive, destroy tank columns etc etc etc.
I'm not in anyway suggesting the Jedi's would be invincible if you plonked 'em in a cockpit, but I am saying that they have mroe tactical options available to them than just being on foot.
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
That i know is bull I have read all of the storm trooper books and it clearly says they are militamen and they do not go extensive indoctrination. The only group that i know of that is even consider elite is the orginal group lead by Commander Cody who leads the 212th who was by far the only remaining Clone trooper regiment that remained. Because afterwards the Imperials (Starwars) paid for cheaper and cheaper training, they were not badasses like they were in the clone wars. Helk most of them are man at arms that really aren't that good at anything..
Uh, maybe you should do some research before you accuse me of lying.
kitch102 wrote:Alright, fine, I'm back in the arguement.
Are we acutally going to start debating the tactics involved in this whole thing now? Why not play out an apocalypse game with air / anti air et al and see how many of those units survive, destroy tank columns etc etc etc.
I'm not in anyway suggesting the Jedi's would be invincible if you plonked 'em in a cockpit, but I am saying that they have mroe tactical options available to them than just being on foot.
Any more???
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
That i know is bull I have read all of the storm trooper books and it clearly says they are militamen and they do not go extensive indoctrination. The only group that i know of that is even consider elite is the orginal group lead by Commander Cody who leads the 212th who was by far the only remaining Clone trooper regiment that remained. Because afterwards the Imperials (Starwars) paid for cheaper and cheaper training, they were not badasses like they were in the clone wars. Helk most of them are man at arms that really aren't that good at anything..
Uh, maybe you should do some research before you accuse me of lying.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_Corps Read it. One problem with the link, that still proves my point. Space marines at average are 150 years old. Thats a century of warfare. compared to the stormtrooper would barely can go through a campagin.
kitch102 wrote:Alright, fine, I'm back in the arguement.
Are we acutally going to start debating the tactics involved in this whole thing now? Why not play out an apocalypse game with air / anti air et al and see how many of those units survive, destroy tank columns etc etc etc.
I'm not in anyway suggesting the Jedi's would be invincible if you plonked 'em in a cockpit, but I am saying that they have mroe tactical options available to them than just being on foot.
Any more???
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
That i know is bull I have read all of the storm trooper books and it clearly says they are militamen and they do not go extensive indoctrination. The only group that i know of that is even consider elite is the orginal group lead by Commander Cody who leads the 212th who was by far the only remaining Clone trooper regiment that remained. Because afterwards the Imperials (Starwars) paid for cheaper and cheaper training, they were not badasses like they were in the clone wars. Helk most of them are man at arms that really aren't that good at anything..
Uh, maybe you should do some research before you accuse me of lying.
The thread was actually Jedi vs. Space Marine and Jedi vs. Tac squad. Neither side gave in because they really aren't comparable and it's too situational.
kitch102 wrote:Alright, fine, I'm back in the arguement.
Are we acutally going to start debating the tactics involved in this whole thing now? Why not play out an apocalypse game with air / anti air et al and see how many of those units survive, destroy tank columns etc etc etc.
I'm not in anyway suggesting the Jedi's would be invincible if you plonked 'em in a cockpit, but I am saying that they have mroe tactical options available to them than just being on foot.
Any more???
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
sourclams wrote:What was that fat, flying dwarf-elephant thing in Ep. 1 whose mind was too strong to use jedi mind powers against?
If Jedi mind powers don't work on the SW-equivalent of a used car salesman, why does it work on the psychoconditioned Space Marines?
Who are also 9 feet tall and very very musclar and have a very high IQ and also learn and read books for gods sakes. They are monks basically that still retain social knowledge. Not dim witted Storm Troopers.
Stormtroopers undergo extensive indoctrination, perhaps even deeper than Space Marines undergo. They quite resistant to mind affecting powers, possibly even more than a Space Marine would be.
That i know is bull I have read all of the storm trooper books and it clearly says they are militamen and they do not go extensive indoctrination. The only group that i know of that is even consider elite is the orginal group lead by Commander Cody who leads the 212th who was by far the only remaining Clone trooper regiment that remained. Because afterwards the Imperials (Starwars) paid for cheaper and cheaper training, they were not badasses like they were in the clone wars. Helk most of them are man at arms that really aren't that good at anything..
Uh, maybe you should do some research before you accuse me of lying.
Read it, and it says they're indoctrinated, mate. Face it, the argument you made against me was a bad one. The term 'owned' comes to mind.
And, since the Jedi have no standing fleet, it's asinine to compare a fully armed and supported SM company to the Jedi.
Quit derailing the thread, please.
I wasn't the one who brought it up Just saying comparing a Space Marine who is indoctranited through horrible means that would scare normal humans is more potent than storm troopers
A fully armed Space Marine Chapter vs a Fully Armed Jedi Force is like pitting a Dragon vs a Dog. The dragon of course being a Komodo Dragon (space marines) vs the Dog. Which in itself means the jedi are screwed.
Plus this agruement has been completely argued to death. So I vote for closing this thread.
Asherian Command wrote:
I wasn't the one who brought it up Just saying comparing a Space Marine who is indoctranited through horrible means that would scare normal humans is more potent than storm troopers
A fully armed Space Marine Chapter vs a Fully Armed Jedi Force is like pitting a Dragon vs a Dog. The dragon of course being a Komodo Dragon (space marines) vs the Dog. Which in itself means the jedi are screwed.
Plus this agruement has been completely argued to death. So I vote for closing this thread.
Yes, I brought it up. Then you argued against it, and I refuted your argument. Not sure what you mean by that, but I'm glad you've accepted that you were wrong.
So... the Jedi could defeat the Space Marines, but it would take a bit of luck to avoid dying, or they'll both die? What are you trying to convey with that metaphor, exactly?
kitch102 wrote:Alright, fine, I'm back in the arguement.
Are we acutally going to start debating the tactics involved in this whole thing now? Why not play out an apocalypse game with air / anti air et al and see how many of those units survive, destroy tank columns etc etc etc.
I'm not in anyway suggesting the Jedi's would be invincible if you plonked 'em in a cockpit, but I am saying that they have mroe tactical options available to them than just being on foot.
Any more???
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Except for that whole pesky premonition thing. Unless another Jedi is actively shielding your Space Marines, I doubt they'd be caught unaware.
The problem is we don't have a defined power level set for the "average" Jedi, as sourclams has said previously but has been conveniently ignored. We don't know if terminators/marines/etc would tear through Jedi or not. Without an accepted power level for them, they are essentially a question mark.
Question. If we took a Camero and set it next to a giant black box that has a car inside - could be any car in the world, including something never before seen - which would you say is better? The Camero - the black box - or would you say you couldn't, because what's in the box is unknown?
Asherian Command wrote:
I wasn't the one who brought it up Just saying comparing a Space Marine who is indoctranited through horrible means that would scare normal humans is more potent than storm troopers
A fully armed Space Marine Chapter vs a Fully Armed Jedi Force is like pitting a Dragon vs a Dog. The dragon of course being a Komodo Dragon (space marines) vs the Dog. Which in itself means the jedi are screwed.
Plus this agruement has been completely argued to death. So I vote for closing this thread.
Yes, I brought it up. Then you argued against it, and I refuted your argument. Not sure what you mean by that, but I'm glad you've accepted that you were wrong.
So... the Jedi could defeat the Space Marines, but it would take a bit of luck to avoid dying, or they'll both die? What are you trying to convey with that metaphor, exactly?
You know a Dog a tamed dog vs a Komodo dragon, the most dangerous animal on the planet vs a tamed animal...... Hmmmm
It basically means jedi = dead when facing a full chapter of space marines who are fully equiped. very few would surivive it I highly doubt a Jedi army would survive such a threat.
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Lmao! You're writing a scenario to suit your arguement, which isn't a fair and balanced assumption of the skills of either force. You're basically waving a blunt instrument about shouting "SPACE MARINES" at the top of your voice. It's counter productive and taking any 'educational enjoyment' out of the thread.
As I see it, the Jedi have the tools required to fight any battle, any where. Be it a direct resource or something that they utilise through their allies, therefore saying Marines will bomb the out of the Jedi, and not expecting them to have anything to counter attack with is nothing short of ridiculous. You realise that the Marines are not fighting ants, but are up against a galactic force of Elite Peace Keepers with almost unlimited resources, that were only defeated by political manouvering and betrayal?
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Lmao! You're writing a scenario to suit your arguement, which isn't a fair and balanced assumption of the skills of either force. You're basically waving a blunt instrument about shouting "SPACE MARINES" at the top of your voice. It's counter productive and taking any 'educational enjoyment' out of the thread.
As I see it, the Jedi have the tools required to fight any battle, any where. Be it a direct resource or something that they utilise through their allies, therefore saying Marines will bomb the out of the Jedi, and not expecting them to have anything to counter attack with is nothing short of ridiculous. You realise that the Marines are not fighting ants, but are up against a galactic force of Elite Peace Keepers with almost unlimited resources, that were only defeated by political manouvering and betrayal?
The Space Marines have something called a fleet in orbit and drop pods before the jedi could react their main leaders would be dead and their ship bays completely destroyed then a small tactical missile would destroy half the remaining jedi and then the slaughter would begin. Jedi probably have never faced anything compared to the space marines, the space marines are relentless and would slaughter everything in their path for humanity, as in their eyes the Jedi are traitiors and harbor Xenos and should be slaughtered for that. You can't make someone who is basically hating you in the start and wants to kill you and force trick them into killing their brother because that wouldn't happen.
Space marines would keep bombarding primary targets and slaughter the pilots.
Then Elite terminator squads come in slaughter all of the jedi and tear through them
Space marine assualt squads would be deployed via storm ravens and thunder hawks and drop pods and would cut off major areas of supplies and bolt pistol their way through the jedi lines. Face it the space marines in their full strength and under the leadership of a Highly Trained Chapter Master and the Chapter Council would mean = instant slaughter. A Space Marine Chapter is like fighting an entire regiment of guardsmen of walking tanks.
Lmao! You're writing a scenario to suit your arguement, which isn't a fair and balanced assumption of the skills of either force. You're basically waving a blunt instrument about shouting "SPACE MARINES" at the top of your voice. It's counter productive and taking any 'educational enjoyment' out of the thread.
As I see it, the Jedi have the tools required to fight any battle, any where. Be it a direct resource or something that they utilise through their allies, therefore saying Marines will bomb the out of the Jedi, and not expecting them to have anything to counter attack with is nothing short of ridiculous. You realise that the Marines are not fighting ants, but are up against a galactic force of Elite Peace Keepers with almost unlimited resources, that were only defeated by political manouvering and betrayal?
Let me tell you something have you read the Space Marine Chapter Wars? Did you know that most of the chapters involved had chapter on chapter battles that almost decimated the entire sector? The Badab war is a great source for Chapter Warfare as Full Space Marine chapters were deployed leaving nothing but wastelands. Compared to the jedi where they barely could fight off a bunch of droids and there were what 500 droids vs 250 jedi?
The Space Marines have 6km ships and ships that could annihalt fighters. They have fighters and weapons that would make a Jedi stab himself in the face.
1,000 Space Marines is terrifying. Entire Rebelous Systems are subded by 1 chapter saying "Oh hell no." Then they come in and slaughter everything. Example read the iron hands tale of what they did to the entire population...
Let me tell you something have you read the Space Marine Chapter Wars? Did you know that most of the chapters involved had chapter on chapter battles that almost decimated the entire sector? The Badab war is a great source for Chapter Warfare as Full Space Marine chapters were deployed leaving nothing but wastelands. Compared to the jedi where they barely could fight off a bunch of droids and there were what 500 droids vs 250 jedi?
The Space Marines have 6km ships and ships that could annihalt fighters. They have fighters and weapons that would make a Jedi stab himself in the face.
1,000 Space Marines is terrifying. Entire Rebelous Systems are subded by 1 chapter saying "Oh hell no." Then they come in and slaughter everything. Example read the iron hands tale of what they did to the entire population...
Whee, 'round and 'round we go,
dancing 'round the Camero!
What's in this black box?
Why, nobody knows!
But it's not as good as this Camero!
[See my last post to make sense of this one. And +1 to thread closing.]
Further question for Mr Annrach... Does the Camero turn in to a crazy cannon wielding robot from out of space? That could also trump the black box. Unless the black box is in actual fact a black box that turns in to an even bigger cannon totting robot from out of space.
I know this isn't on topic at all but I really feel like I need to HAMMER this point home, pointless as it may be, just for the sheer hell of it really.
Back to Asherian, no I haven't read that, sounds interesting, I'll make a point of checking it out. However, that's not relevant to the topic. The original question was would it take 2 or 5 companies of Marines to level the Jedi on an equal footing - page 1 if you want to double check. I don't believe that it could be done with 2 or 5 companies, though if you want to pitch multiple chapters against the Jedi, completely taking the question out of balance then please feel free, but I'll still be here, standing by my points.
The black box could turn into a bigger cannon totting robot from outer space! That's kinda the whole point - this entire thread is comparing a known variable to an unknown variable. While that second variable remains unknown, it's impossible to make a fair/accurate comparison.
kitch102 wrote:Further question for Mr Annrach... Does the Camero turn in to a crazy cannon wielding robot from out of space? That could also trump the black box. Unless the black box is in actual fact a black box that turns in to an even bigger cannon totting robot from out of space.
I know this isn't on topic at all but I really feel like I need to HAMMER this point home, pointless as it may be, just for the sheer hell of it really.
Back to Asherian, no I haven't read that, sounds interesting, I'll make a point of checking it out. However, that's not relevant to the topic. The original question was would it take 2 or 5 companies of Marines to level the Jedi on an equal footing - page 1 if you want to double check. I don't believe that it could be done with 2 or 5 companies, though if you want to pitch multiple chapters against the Jedi, completely taking the question out of balance then please feel free, but I'll still be here, standing by my points.
kitch102 wrote:Yes, it is. But the OP refers to using 2 companies. ie, 200 Marines. Not 5000 Marines from 5 chapters as his friend states.
Can you let this move on now please?
yes I will matters on the two compainies doesn't it?
If it is 200 marines it really matters on those 200 marines are they newbs or are they veterans?
Or are they a mix?
So my safe bet is yes the 200 marines will win, if they are mixed or veterans, newbs will lose and the jedi win if the space marines are ultramarines regardless of company markings.
Did you just say that the Jedi would win if they faced the Ultramarines, irrespective of experience level of said Marines? So they could face down 200 Ultramarine vets, but would lose to, say, a mix of 100 Tactical Marines and 100 vets?
Did I get that right? Genuine question, apologies if it comes across as rude.
But that just doesn't make sense. How could they win against the Elite of one chapter, only to lose against a mix of troops from, say the Black Templars
Referring you back to Annrach's black box comment, which is probably the most sensible thing that's been said in this entire thread - the Jedi are, in gaming terms an unknown quantity. Add in that we don't actually know how many Jedi would be fighting and you really come round to saying that the questions unanswerable without a play through, as its too circumstancial. Which was actually said on page 2 of this thread (I think).
kitch102 wrote:Did you just say that the Jedi would win if they faced the Ultramarines, irrespective of experience level of said Marines? So they could face down 200 Ultramarine vets, but would lose to, say, a mix of 100 Tactical Marines and 100 vets?
Did I get that right? Genuine question, apologies if it comes across as rude.
But that just doesn't make sense. How could they win against the Elite of one chapter, only to lose against a mix of troops from, say the Black Templars
Referring you back to Annrach's black box comment, which is probably the most sensible thing that's been said in this entire thread - the Jedi are, in gaming terms an unknown quantity. Add in that we don't actually know how many Jedi would be fighting and you really come round to saying that the questions unanswerable without a play through, as its too circumstancial. Which was actually said on page 2 of this thread (I think).
Yes. Ultramarines suck, Black Templars do not Because if the 200 black templars don't kill you a thousand more will replace it
Going for the purpose of the thread call a lightsaber S6 AP1 2d6 armor pen. A jedi would chew up an entire tac squad in cc. Depending on the circumstances the jedi might get into cc. If a librarian is nearby the answer is no, the psychic hood would screw too much with the jedi's forsight, and once they take a boltgun shot they have no ability to endure it better than a guardsman.
Let's come to a compromise: the marine shoots the jedi in the face, point-blank, and the jedi decapitates the marines at the exact same time. NOW LET THIS POST DIE ALREADY!
Dingdoodah wrote:Let's come to a compromise: the marine shoots the jedi in the face, point-blank, and the jedi decapitates the marines at the exact same time. NOW LET THIS THREAD DIE ALREADY!
fixed
anyway I agree this thread is gone, ask for a mod by pming one and one will come along and close it.
In all honesty this thread has runned its course.
Posts like this are the reason this thread should be closed. You have no idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever.
The point is simple and uncontested. If a 40k ability can interfere with a jedi's ability to use the force they can no longer use their ability of forsight tom dodge and parry ranged attacks.
I think a better thread would be old republic/galactic empire versus a full blown tyranis invasion.
Posts like this are the reason this thread should be closed. You have no idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever.
The point is simple and uncontested. If a 40k ability can interfere with a jedi's ability to use the force they can no longer use their ability of forsight tom dodge and parry ranged attacks.
I think a better thread would be old republic/galactic empire versus a full blown tyranis invasion.
Except for the fact that the 40k ability can't interfere with the Jedi's ability.
Force powers are not psychic powers. Jedi are not psykers. Jedi are not affected by psychic hoods, would not get possessed by demons, etc. etc.
Commisar Wolfie wrote:How can you be sure that the jedi's powers wouldn't translate into being psychic powers in the 40K universe?
By that reasoning, the Jesi would be utterly screwed.
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Nerivant wrote:Force powers are not psychic powers. Jedi are not psykers. Jedi are not affected by psychic hoods, would not get possessed by demons, etc. etc.
And they're also less powerful than psychic powers, too.
Or can a Jedi create a barrier strong enough to block the entirety of a death star's superlaser? Or create a literal firestorm which can wipe out entire armies at a time? Boil a person's blood with a thought, open up the ground and then close it on those who fall in to crush them, slow down/speed up/stop time? Because a Psyker can
Posts like this are the reason this thread should be closed. You have no idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever.
The point is simple and uncontested. If a 40k ability can interfere with a jedi's ability to use the force they can no longer use their ability of forsight tom dodge and parry ranged attacks.
I think a better thread would be old republic/galactic empire versus a full blown tyranis invasion.
Except for the fact that the 40k ability can't interfere with the Jedi's ability.
Force powers are not psychic powers. Jedi are not psykers. Jedi are not affected by psychic hoods, would not get possessed by demons, etc. etc.
Jedi are not psykers, teleketically crushing a foe's throat is not a psychic power, and shooting force lightliing at people is in no way a psychic power because gw has no legal right to use the word metachlorines in their books.
Most people see the star wars galaxy as less corrupted by the warp/dark side of the force, and see the following terms as interchangable warp/dark side of the force, force powers/psychic powers, mana/chi, six of one/half dozen of the other.
Lucas' lawyers would on the otherhand cutt out Matt Ward's heart and make him eat it while it still beats if he were to write into the next chaos codex's fluff that Magnus the Red had a high metachlorine count.
[quote=schadenfreudeLucas' lawyers would on the otherhand cutt out Matt Ward's heart and make him eat it while it still beats if he were to write into the next chaos codex's fluff that Magnus the Red had a high metachlorine count.
Now I want him to write that, purely to see that happen.
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Melissia wrote:
Commisar Wolfie wrote:How can you be sure that the jedi's powers wouldn't translate into being psychic powers in the 40K universe?
By that reasoning, the Jesi would be utterly screwed.
I agree they would be, I was just wondering how someone could say that the force powers wouldn't translate into being psyker like powers that would be affected by space marine anti psyker methods and also be vulnerable to chaos and perils of the warp and such.
Commisar Wolfie wrote:[quote=schadenfreudeLucas' lawyers would on the otherhand cutt out Matt Ward's heart and make him eat it while it still beats if he were to write into the next chaos codex's fluff that Magnus the Red had a high metachlorine count.
Now I want him to write that, purely to see that happen.
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Melissia wrote:
Commisar Wolfie wrote:How can you be sure that the jedi's powers wouldn't translate into being psychic powers in the 40K universe?
By that reasoning, the Jesi would be utterly screwed.
I agree they would be, I was just wondering how someone could say that the force powers wouldn't translate into being psyker like powers that would be affected by space marine anti psyker methods and also be vulnerable to chaos and perils of the warp and such.
Correct me if I am wrong on this one point:star wars is not set in the milky way galaxy.
That being said pretty much every species in the star wars galaxy is as non psychic as tau, even master yoda. A symbiotic organism is what gives all jedi their power, and for the most part only that one symbiotic organism is psychic in swg. That being said by 40k warp physics the barriers between the material relm and the warp grow weaker in the presence of large #s of psychic humaniods such as eldar, and stronger in their absence. The natual conclusion if you obey the metaphysics of swg and 40kg at the same time is the barriers between realspace and the warp are much stronger in the swg than it is in the 40kg. Net effect is psychic powers are not as strong, and deamons are starved especially when taking into account the long period of galactic peace during the old republic. 40k psychers would grow weaker in the star wars galaxy, and jedi would be woefully unprepared to deal with being a possible conduit to the warp in the 40k milky way galaxy.
schadenfreude wrote:A symbiotic organism is what gives all jedi their power
No.
Midichlorians are indicators of a strong connection to the force-- that is, a strong connection to the force means someone is force-sensitive and has lots of midichlorians, not that having lots of midichlorians MAKES one force-sensitive.
schadenfreude wrote:A symbiotic organism is what gives all jedi their power
No.
Midichlorians are indicators of a strong connection to the force-- that is, a strong connection to the force means someone is force-sensitive and has lots of midichlorians, not that having lots of midichlorians MAKES one force-sensitive.
True. And correct
Now The biggest problem we have here is that the space marine vs jedi thread is kinda dieing.
On topic: If Jedi cannot draw from the warp, then there's no reason to believe that the force exists in 40k, so them attacking Space Marines would mean that they're utterly screwed. If they CAN draw from the warp, then they're still utterly screwed because they're not prepared, equipped, or trained to deal with the warp's corruptive nature.
Melissia wrote:Dunno if that's what I would call a "problem".
On topic: If Jedi cannot draw from the warp, then there's no reason to believe that the force exists in 40k, so them attacking Space Marines would mean that they're utterly screwed. If they CAN draw from the warp, then they're still utterly screwed because they're not prepared, equipped, or trained to deal with the warp's corruptive nature.
Marines will be marines either way.
The Force comes from life itself, IIRC. (It's been a long time since I've read the books.) As long as there are living things in the 40k universe, the Jedi will be able to use the force. They are two completely different mechanisms, so your argument doesn't hold water.
Seriously though, this was discussed and refuted several pages back. This thread has run its course, and should be closed so we stop repeating the same arguments ad nauseam.
CiaranAnnrach wrote:The Force comes from life itself, IIRC.
The Warp exists as long as existence itself exists. Even if all necrons win and wipe out all life in the universe and finish their network of pylons to cut the warp off from realspace-- it'll still be there. Sure, the chaos gods won't like it, but they aren't the warp, they're just collective sentiences that exist in it.
If the force exists in 40k, then it's long since been corrupted by the various warp-creatures.
Melissia wrote:The Warp exists as long as existence itself exists. Even if all necrons win and wipe out all life in the universe and finish their network of pylons to cut the warp off from realspace-- it'll still be there. Sure, the chaos gods won't like it, but they aren't the warp, they're just collective sentiences that exist in it.
If the force exists in 40k, then it's long since been corrupted by the various warp-creatures.
That assumes the Force and the Warp cannot coexist together, of which we have no evidence to base that on. That and it assumes that the Warp is the only source of psychic power - known, long-forgotten, or undiscovered - in the 40k Universe. Both are assumptions which have no real evidence that I know of to support them.
Melissia wrote:The Warp exists as long as existence itself exists. Even if all necrons win and wipe out all life in the universe and finish their network of pylons to cut the warp off from realspace-- it'll still be there. Sure, the chaos gods won't like it, but they aren't the warp, they're just collective sentiences that exist in it.
If the force exists in 40k, then it's long since been corrupted by the various warp-creatures.
That assumes the Force and the Warp cannot coexist together, of which we have no evidence to base that on. That and it assumes that the Warp is the only source of psychic power - known, long-forgotten, or undiscovered - in the 40k Universe. Both are assumptions which have no real evidence that I know of to support them.
I actually assumed they do co-exist.
The warp and realspace co-exist, and the warp's denizens constantly seek to corrupt realspace. Why would they ignore the force?
OK, as a person, who utterly hates star wars now (Lucas ruined it for me) but at one point in time read all the books, comics, and was a huge fan, and also someone who has been playing GW games since 1991 I would say hands down, the Jedi from the movies would get curb stomped by the Marines and the Imperium forces. The Jedi of the Old Republic however, (which is like 4 to 5 thousand years before the movies) would probably crush the marines. After all, 2 Jedi single handily took down the Mandalorian Empire for the most part during the old republic times. Where as in the Clone wars, it took the whole Jedi to defeat, slowed ass mass manufactured idiot droid armies.
All star wars media is canonized, I verified this. However, Lucas reserves the rights to change it if he ever uses it. Lucas Books now publishes all Star Wars literature, and there is some sort of stupid canon rating.
OK, so some quick points to the people who aren't going back to reread my posts, these will be related to the movie Jedi.
- Midichlorians have nothing to do with the force other than they are a side effect. You gain them when you use the force, otherwise they do not reflect how powerful you are. The Jedi were too reliant on technology and lost their way of the Force, thus making them weaker over many generations.
- A sith lord infiltrated the Repbulic, had they been more in tune with the force they would have detected his presence right away
- Yoda himself, the most powerful Jedi at the time was ultimately one giant failure. He failed to protect the Republic, he did not even know until the very end of the prequels that you could in fact become one with the force, which is why he and Obiwan disappear when they die.
Lucas was a horrible writer. He has great ideas, but expands them in the wrong manner and then fails at applying them to a great, deep and meaningful story line. Currently in the books Luke is the most powerful Jedi, and he is a contender for maybe most powerful of all time. He doesn't possess the abilities of say Nihilus or Sion, but he has traveled both paths of the dark and light side and is well versed in each of the arts.
The fact that Nihilus by himself, can absorb all life force energy from a planet and kill everyone on a single planet means he could probably wipe out chapters of marines. Sion, is sith brother is basically immortal. His hatred was so strong it allowed the dark side to hold his body together. The only way he could be defeated is to bring him into the light and have him give up on his anger. So basically, anything short of a vortex grenade wouldn't kill him, or a Marine that could compassionately talk him out of holding on to his hatred.
Now, I am not saying outright that the Jedi would just wipe the Marines. I am saying if you take the most powerful Jedi and put them all together in one army, versus the marines at their height, say even with the Emporer God himself, it would be a giant blood bath. I think that fluff wise the Marines are written to be more powerful than the Jedi for sure, but there are cases I can think of where some Jedi/Sith are just ridiculous in their powers.
Looking at all of this objectively, I would say, in the end, the Space Marines would win, but it would cost them greatly and they would take great losses.
in the third movie, it showed that a single jedi could easily be overwhelmed by ten or so stormtroopers firing blasters, which they can deflect. In the clone wars tv show, it showed a jedi overwhelmed by droids firing blasters, which suck considerably harder than stormtroopers. So, space marines firing bolter shells, which they cannot deflect, would easily kill a jedi. 1 jedi vs 4 space marines would be an even match. so a ratio of 1 vs 6, the jedi lose, and I think there's about 500 jedi in the jedi temple, not including the cadets and early padawans, who wouldn't be a threat. so that's 6,000 marines required to clean out the jedi temple, and that's if it's just basic, infantry marines. You could pull it off with considerably fewer if they were equipped with flamers or plasma guns, those are pretty much instant death to 2 or 3 jedi per shot. I doubt the effectiveness of dreadnoughts and their tanks, jedi own vehicles.
SnaleKing wrote:1 jedi vs 4 space marines would be an even match.
Happy that someone's finally been able to offer a figure on this, so what we saying then is that 500 Jedi per temple would take 2000 marines, just to break even? So 2 chapters to take out a temple, which is more than the OP suggested (2 companies / 200 marines), but less than his mate suggested (5 chapters).
SnaleKing wrote:1 jedi vs 4 space marines would be an even match.
Happy that someone's finally been able to offer a figure on this, so what we saying then is that 500 Jedi per temple would take 2000 marines, just to break even? So 2 chapters to take out a temple, which is more than the OP suggested (2 companies / 200 marines), but less than his mate suggested (5 chapters).
At any rate, I doubt anything but the most exceptionally capable Jedi could handle Marines aside from one on one combat.
Remember, most Jedi weren't Jedi Knights, they were consuls, ambassadors, etc.
Yes, but they were led by the most powerful Jedi/Sith at the time. Even when Nilihus took over, he had a legion of Sith soldiers at his beckoning. Imagine him, Sion, and thousands of sith followers. Then imagine the non force users and the mechanized war machines they had. Also, there is never an official record of how many Jedi there are. Many force users never never became Jedi/Sith, and some didn't even live in the Republic space.
The movies don't mean anything, and the Jedi/Sith could do serious damage to Space Marines. Though, some chapters, say the Grey Knights for example, would probably do a lot better than say the Ultra Marines against the Jedi.
However, I still stand by my original opinion that the Space Marines would ultimately defeat the Jedi.
larose14 wrote:Ha... Blueberries... and gundam wings jumpin around.... lol
Hehe, blueberries and gundams blowing up your army on turn 3 from across the board, lol
Yes .. yes they do yet I do enjoy watching my men bonk them on their squishy heads with our gazillion flashlights.. lol not a tactic to use on marines im afraid tho :(
sourclams wrote:Hey guys, who would win in a fight:
Jedi
or
Space Marine
or
Master Chief
or
MacGuyver, in an Abraham Lincoln hat.
Terrain is a Space Marine bunker next to a Jedi temple on top of Halo ruins littered with chemistry sets.
Just wait for the 40K Universe versus say the Marvel Universe debate
Caucasian Peter Parker versus Black-Hispanic Spiderman versus 4th ed Black Salamander Marine with corn rows versus 5th ed coal black Fire Giant Salamander Marine.
Winner fights Abraham Lincoln-hat MacGuyver and Tyler Perry dressed as Obi-Wan dressed as Mace Windu.
in return.
of throwing suns at (planetary-defense)-space stations (who they hell checks the drivel they write?), if Marines can move a sun, they can move a planet.
A clone like Boba Fett or his normal human father Jango woop jedi for fun. Now image what a super human space marine would do. Even in 1vs1 they would be able to kill jedi.
