so there is a debate goen on with a nerd friend of mine about jedi vs space marines.
his argument is that it would take 5 full chapters to take on the jedi on equal footing.
now im a fanboy my self and i love starwars.
but come on now 5 chapters...
i could do it with 2 companies of crimson fists on equal footing.
what say you?
coolyo294 wrote:1 SM < 1 Jedi
1 Squad of SM > 1 Jedi
i agree jedi are fast and nimble and heads up with one space marine, space marine would lose...
but in number i would have to go with the space marines.
i agree with coolio,1 squad>1 jedi
that is assuming it is just one of those normal jedi, and not yoda, or obiwan or DVADER or someone else sick.
Im assuming normal jedi vs normal marines
Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.
dajobe wrote:i agree with coolio,1 squad>1 jedi
that is assuming it is just one of those normal jedi, and not yoda, or obiwan or DVADER or someone else sick.
Im assuming normal jedi vs normal marines
nope its all the jedi... no sith... just jedi...
on equal footing no space battles, just on the ground heads up annihilation. he says 5 full chapters... i say 2 to 3 companies max.
Then Jedi, hands down. From the historical period of the Jedi Order, they were *vastly* more powerful than they are in the eras depicted in the film.
Sith War-era?
The SM Chapter(s) land, disembark from their drop-pods... and then die because the earth under their feet opens up and swallows them whole over a region several hundred meters in diameter.
Jedi Civil War era?
Half the Chapters turn on the other other half as the Jedi waves his hand and says "You are beset on all sides by enemies". Half the Space Marines shout "We are beset on all sides by our enemies!" and boltgun-fu then commences.
The survivors are then Compelled to swallow their own bolt-pistols.
... and all of this is just *one* Jedi required to accomplish this.
Multiple Jedi?
Well, shoot, in that case, a couple powerful telekine Jedi ensure that no bolt-gun round *ever* finds a target, a couple powerful mechanokinetic Jedi ensure that the Space Marines can't even *move* because their Power Armor just shut down, not to mention the fact that their boltguns won't even fire because the war-spirits within them have been sent to sleep. Add in a couple telepathic Jedi, and the Space Marines are swinging on each other because the First Company now realizes that Second, Third and Fourth Company are *actually* all members of the Alpha Legion, and not true Battle-Brothers at all!
And the Librarian? He gets Force-drained, and his psychic powers are, at best, a mere shadow of their former potency.
Toss in a couple Grey Jedi and you have Space Marines being lifted a few meters off the floor and strangulated, or getting a facefull of lightning bolts cast from an outstretched hand, or finding their very blood suddenly boiling them alive from within their veins. Do not mess with an angry Grey Jedi... Light-side, Dark-side, doesn't matter, the Force is the Force is the Force, and they will use it to its full potential to ruin your day.
I would like to see a Jedi survive a tactical squad firing bolters at him/her. Not Yoda or someone as awesome (although that would be cool). Add in a heavy bolter, a plasma gun and a storm bolter for the sergeant... minced Jedi meat. One on one the Jedi would win I think.
dajobe wrote:i agree with coolio,1 squad>1 jedi
that is assuming it is just one of those normal jedi, and not yoda, or obiwan or DVADER or someone else sick.
Im assuming normal jedi vs normal marines
nope its all the jedi... no sith... just jedi...
on equal footing no space battles, just on the ground heads up annihilation. he says 5 full chapters... i say 2 to 3 companies max.
i had originally typed anakin, but didnt want to spell it wrong and look like a neeewb...looks like i did anyway, i do realise that DVader is not a jedi
gaovinni wrote:I would like to see a Jedi survive a tactical squad firing bolters at him/her. Not Yoda or someone as awesome (although that would be cool). Add in a heavy bolter, a plasma gun and a storm bolter for the sergeant... minced Jedi meat. One on one the Jedi would win I think.
Really not that hard for a telekinetic Jedi to simply will himself/herself to not be hit... or, if he or she is feeling saucy, deflecting the shots off with the lightsabre... or if he or she is particularly badass, simply holding a hand up to let everything bounce off that.
Really, a powerful Jedi is like an alpha-plus psyker... an enemy not to be under-estimated upon peril of death.
Really not that hard for a telekinetic Jedi to simply will himself/herself to not be hit... or, if he or she is feeling saucy, deflecting the shots off with the lightsabre... or if he or she is particularly badass, simply holding a hand up to let everything bounce off that.
Really, a powerful Jedi is like an alpha-plus psyker... an enemy not to be under-estimated upon peril of death.
The shots explode, and the Jedi gets peppered with shrapnel, distracting him long enough for another bolt to get through. Same with deflecting off the hand trick.
40k has people who can block shots, and 40k being 40k, the answer is usually 'switch to full auto'.
As individually powerful as a Jedi is, they aren't front line soldiers. One on one with a single Marine? Yeah the Jedi will win. Against a combat squad of Marines? I'm doubting it.
Or they don't... since there's no table-top equivalent of the Jedi, really... plus, I think this is a fluff-battle, not a rules-battle. There's no "save" to make.
Also... are we talking a single squad of Marines against a single Jedi?
Or ten Marines against ten Jedi? 100 vs 100? 1000 vs 1000?
A single Jedi of generally-average ability is more than enough for a single Space Marine on an open battlefield, though changing the theater of battle, as well as the numbers and prep-time and whether the Jedi are set up defensively or are assaulting the Marines' own defensive positions can radically change the outcome of the battle.
Against Grey Knights? Eh... this would be like saying "Ok, Jedi vs Space Marines... but the SM left their power armor and their bolters back home. Go!" The GK, I would argue, are all but immune to the effects of the Force, since the argument in this battle is that Force = Warp. Power weapons, likewise, probably deflect lightsabres, but likewise cannot destroy them. There are in-universe weapons in SW that are immune (or, at least, very highly resistant) to the destructive effects of a lightsabre.
So, yeah, the Jedi are fooked when fighting GK, at least without the support of their Rangers.
The force does a lot to even it out. There are many ways a jedi could stop him/herself from being killed by bolters.
1. Stopping the SM for from shooting (or just making them shoot each other) with mind control. SMs have never gone against any kind of influence like this so we don't know if they could resist it. They are very loyal to their cause but when it comes to free thinking the SMs aren't great.
2. Just move the bolters shots so they miss. You don't need to block them just alter the direction.
3.Make them explode. Being solid objects they can be moved by the force where lasers can't. While harder it would be possible to hit the bolts head on with the force and they would explode. This would particularly interesting if the bolts were still in the gun at the time.
4M2A wrote:I think 1 jedi= about 1 tactical squad.
The force does a lot to even it out. There are many ways a jedi could stop him/herself from being killed by bolters.
1. Stopping the SM for from shooting (or just making them shoot each other) with mind control. SMs have never gone against any kind of influence like this so we don't know if they could resist it. They are very loyal to their cause but when it comes to free thinking the SMs aren't great.
Lash of Submission? SM's spend decades being trained to resist Chaos, and yet if they have no Psychic Hood wielders to hand then they have a 100% failure rate in resisting mind control by Slaaneshi practitioners. SMs have no specific training in resisting Jedi powers.
4M2A wrote:I think 1 jedi= about 1 tactical squad.
The force does a lot to even it out. There are many ways a jedi could stop him/herself from being killed by bolters.
1. Stopping the SM for from shooting (or just making them shoot each other) with mind control. SMs have never gone against any kind of influence like this so we don't know if they could resist it. They are very loyal to their cause but when it comes to free thinking the SMs aren't great.
Lash of Submission? SM's spend decades being trained to resist Chaos, and yet if they have no Psychic Hood wielders to hand then they have a 100% failure rate in resisting mind control by Slaaneshi practitioners. SMs have no specific training in resisting Jedi powers.
rodfarruguia wrote:Can't deflect bolter shells. Both can have swords that cut through anything.
Bolter marine> Jedi
Lass marine < Jedi
Um, yeah, you can. The bolter round is mass-reactive, which means the explosion is not triggered until it detects impact with a mass-bearing target over a certain limit (even air has mass, so it must have a minimum threshold, or it would explode immediately upon firing). So you can, with a lightsabre, just cut it in half in flight (being that the blade of a lightsabre is entirely weightless, for all intents and purposes and, specifically, not enough to trigger a boltgun's round) or, through the Force, just send it off-target to blow up in a wall or something.
Jedi mindtricks only work on the weak-minded. Space Marines are not weak-minded.
They work *best* on the weak-minded, but certain races are immune, to a greater or lesser degree, while others can be made to dance like puppets.
They can deflect boltshells with the force I think, probably not with the lightsaber though. I don't think he could block an entire squad of Tacticals on auto though that's pretty ridiculous.
I have never heard of a jedi blocking a round like a bolter. you only ever see them just barely blocking those stupid slow laser beam rifles or w/e from somewhat stupid droids.
Honestly i would say a single space marine would be a fair match for a single jedi if they start at range i give it to the space marine to shoot him down.
in close combat the jedi would have to take the win.
I don't even want to think about an entire squad of marines VS a Jedi. Jedi gets shot to death or trampled under the sheer might of the marines in close combat. who cares if he chops an arm or leg off or even a head. it only takes a single punch from just 1 of those marines to break the body of a jedi. that's like taking a sledge hammer to the face with more then a thousand pounds of force behind it. you don't get up after that lol
Jedi lose. Space marines win.
Jedi can't mind trick a space marine. They are not the weak minded. They are champions of humanity not the weakly guardsmen.
There is a big difference between a Starwars storm trooper and a Space marine
The jedi could kill one but then a bolter shell hits him from behind and a chainsword slices him in half.
True, the lightsabre is not really "deflecting" the bolt-shell, more like disintegrating it.
As far as Jedi vs Tactical Squad...
Really depends on the deployment situation. A lone Jedi is *probably* not going to do too well just walking up amongst them... but a single Jedi attacking from positions of stealth and concealment, stalking the Tac Squad, making use of various Force powers to distract and disorient, as well as enhance their own cover, is a much more formidable foe.
I think with this scenario, specifically, there's far too many variables to say, with certainty, which side is going to win.
I don't even want to think about an entire squad of marines VS a Jedi. Jedi gets shot to death or trampled under the sheer might of the marines in close combat. who cares if he chops an arm or leg off or even a head. it only takes a single punch from just 1 of those marines to break the body of a jedi. that's like taking a sledge hammer to the face with more then a thousand pounds of force behind it. you don't get up after that lol
Not all Jedi are humans. Some are made of living stone. These will simply walk through your bolter fire, as they're pretty much immune to it, and crush you under their mountain-like feet.
...and, again, Space Marines are not immune to mind control.
Jedi might only be observed deflecting energy rounds, but they are known to have potent telekinetic abilities. Bolter rounds have mass, they can be manipulated by those able to manipulate mass. Deflecting their course, destroying them, making barriers that activate their detonation and deflect the ensuing shrapnel.
I'm no SW fanatic, but I do think that a Jedi has like 70% of SM's at a serious disadvantage; something like a fair fight might be on the cards in the case of characters, and if a lascannon is an actual LOS insta-hit then a bit of decoy-and-snipe tactica could claim an impressive bodycount by vaping Jedi before they even know the attack's incoming...
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Psienesis wrote:a single Jedi attacking from positions of stealth and concealment, stalking the Tac Squad, making use of various Force powers to distract and disorient, as well as enhance their own cover, is a much more formidable foe.
I think a tac squad with a Lascannon and experience of fighting Eldar could very well turn the tables on such trickery.
Lash of Submission? SM's spend decades being trained to resist Chaos, and yet if they have no Psychic Hood wielders to hand then they have a 100% failure rate in resisting mind control by Slaaneshi practitioners. SMs have no specific training in resisting Jedi powers.
Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded, my interpretation is that their dedication to the Emperor would at least allow them to resist any 'kill your battle brothers' commands.
More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.
Besides, let's note that Lash of Submission is something used by daemon princes. Daemon princes are practically walking demi-gods. They are far, FAR more powerful than simple 'practitioners of Chaos'. I don't think your average Jedi is going to have the same power as a daemon prince.
Maybe. Eldar do win against the SM, sometimes, too. Also, a Lascannon has a very low ammo capacity (only 5 shots in the DHRPG, and cannot use a backpack ammo supply), and requires set-up time, since it's normally a crew-served weapon. Hopefully, it's pointed in the right direction when the Jedi is noticed, and not, say, the opposite direction when he seems to meld out of thin air and cut it in half before disappearing once more.
If there were, say, a Falleen or Anzati Jedi stalking the Space Marines... well, in the Anzati's case, he/she can *also* eat the brains of the victim (they call this "soup", and have specialized organs for drawing the brain out of the victim's nose or ears) and gain their knowledge and memories... not to mention other vampire-like powers and weirdness.
So... Anzati Jedi stalks Space Marines, gets the drop on one, kills him and eats his brain. Anzati Jedi now has that Marine's understanding of the Codex Astartes, as well as his personal knowledge of vox-channels, call-signs, tactical doctrine, etc etc. At least for awhile. There's a whole lotta mischief you can do with that kind of knowledge!
Fortunately, Anzati Jedi are *extremely* rare. As in, one in the past several thousand years.
Again, I think this (Jedi vs SM) is a battle with too many variables to immediately declare a winner, because there's so *many* ways the battle could go.
Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded
No, they work *best* on the weak-minded. Only a few races are immune, everyone else either trains, specifically, to resist, or simply has a strong enough willpower to resist, or has the SW version of a psy-blocker on.
More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.
Cause it's a movie, and Lucas chose not to write it that way.
Technically, one could build a lightsabre to do that, but it would be unwieldy, so they don't. There are many forms of lightsabre-like weapons, including the familiar sword, tonfa, staves, daggers, reverse-grip swords (shoto) and whips, or combinations of these (like Asajj Ventris' swords, that can link together at the pommels to form a staff, as did those of Darth Maul.). Lightsabres can be further built to offer various advantages against certain kinds of enemy or in certain situations (like being underwater)... but we're not often going to see these situations in film, because it's really not that big a deal unless very specific to the plot.
The thing is that Space Marines, apart from the differences set down by their various Chapters, are all pretty much the same. Tactical Marines act a certain way, Assault Marines another, Devastator yet another way... but, when you have a Space Marine of a known type, you pretty much know what you're getting.
Jedi aren't as... template-based. No two Jedi are identical, and can have wildly varying powers, on top of whatever special traits they may have based on their species. Also, just because some Jedi have the ability to force someone to shoot themselves, or strangle someone through the Force, or shoot lightning, or shut down machines, or teleport, or whatever, doesn't mean they all can do this. It's quite possible that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda had the ability to force this action, as Yoda is more of a seer/telekine and Obi-Wan is more of a soldier (especially in the prequel trilogy), using the Force to be stronger, faster, tougher than a normal human. He is a pretty powerful telepath, though, as they often refer to his many uses of these powers, but they also often don't work... generally because he's using them on species who are immune.
Psienesis wrote:Maybe. Eldar do win against the SM, sometimes, too. Also, a Lascannon has a very low ammo capacity (only 5 shots in the DHRPG, and cannot use a backpack ammo supply), and requires set-up time, since it's normally a crew-served weapon. Hopefully, it's pointed in the right direction when the Jedi is noticed, and not, say, the opposite direction when he seems to meld out of thin air and cut it in half before disappearing once more.
If there were, say, a Falleen or Anzati Jedi stalking the Space Marines... well, in the Anzati's case, he/she can *also* eat the brains of the victim (they call this "soup", and have specialized organs for drawing the brain out of the victim's nose or ears) and gain their knowledge and memories... not to mention other vampire-like powers and weirdness.
So... Anzati Jedi stalks Space Marines, gets the drop on one, kills him and eats his brain. Anzati Jedi now has that Marine's understanding of the Codex Astartes, as well as his personal knowledge of vox-channels, call-signs, tactical doctrine, etc etc. At least for awhile. There's a whole lotta mischief you can do with that kind of knowledge!
Fortunately, Anzati Jedi are *extremely* rare. As in, one in the past several thousand years.
Again, I think this (Jedi vs SM) is a battle with too many variables to immediately declare a winner, because there's so *many* ways the battle could go.
Since Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded
No, they work *best* on the weak-minded. Only a few races are immune, everyone else either trains, specifically, to resist, or simply has a strong enough willpower to resist, or has the SW version of a psy-blocker on.
More importantly, if Jedi can just use a 'kill your allies' command, why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda use it when they were trying to get back in to the Jedi temple? You can't tell me that clone troopers are somehow more resistant to psychic manipulation than a Marine.
Cause it's a movie, and Lucas chose not to write it that way.
Jedi mindtricks ONLY work on the weak-minded. they say as much. I don't remember if it's Episode 1 or 4, but they say exactly that. ONLY on the weak-minded. So I extremely doubt this could be done to a Space Marine.
Space Marines can also eat the flesh of their enemies, and learn/gain memories from them. Current Codex: Space Marines.
Jedi mindtricks ONLY work on the weak-minded. they say as much. I don't remember if it's Episode 1 or 4, but they say exactly that. ONLY on the weak-minded. So I extremely doubt this could be done to a Space Marine.
They work best on the weak-minded. It's demonstrated in several other sources that one can be susceptible to it if caught off-guard, not expecting it, or are of a weaker mind than the Jedi using the power. In the latter case... well, we're back to my point that Jedi are too heavily invested as individuals, rather than an army-type, to be able to judge.
Incidentally, if you'd want to rank canonicity of film-content, the order goes: Ep 4 (ANH), Ep5 (ESB), Ep6 (RotJ), Ep1 (TPM), Ep2 (AotC), Ep3 (RotS). Basically, the order in which they were filmed sets their order within the "A-Canon" classification of SW lore.
In Ep4 , Obi-Wan tells Luke:
"The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."
This doesn't say that only the weak-minded are affected by the Force, it simply states that the weak-minded can be strongly influenced by the Force. A strong mind might be slightly (or perhaps moderately, or more, or less) influenced by the Force... or not at all.
But, yes, as I've been saying for several pages now, there's far too many variables in this battle to say, with any certainty, who would win. It very, very much depends on how many SM are involved, their weapon load-out, and whether they're attacking, defending, patrolling, aware of the Jedi presence, and so forth. By the same token, it depends on number of Jedi present, individual Jedi strength, what powers they know, and if they are attacking, defending, stalking, etc.
Not all chapters follow the codex, my chapters fluff has each indiviual marine comes up with his own tactics, which leads to huge differences between each angel prince.
But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.
ELDAR DO. The eldar do have cloaks they shield their presence with pyschic abilities thats why its so hard to detect them. The Space marines have squad updates in their helmets their helmets are very useful. (Thats why i put helmets on all my guys because what idiot takes off their only way to communicate and monitor their motion detectors and danger warnings?
Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.
Which means the jedi is screwed vs an entire tactical squad hell a scout squad would even kick their ass.
It matters what the marines have. Of course the basic equipment for a space marine is a bolter, but sometimes they take different weapons so if it was based on fluff then they all get shotguns + bolter attachment. (Yeah it can happen)
I really can't see a jedi being able to successfully defeat an entire space marine squad because the battle brothers know one thing... "DO NOT SPLIT UP, SPLITTING UP = YOU DIE!"
But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.
They do. In several forms. There's even a Force power that renders you utterly invisible to any form of artificial sense. Basically, you become invisible to droids, scanners, sensors, cameras, etc.
Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.
No, that's not how lightsabres work. The blade is a plasma-like laser that loops back on itself because of a sort of magnet in the handle, not a deflector at the tip of the blade. The sword is, at once, perfectly cylindrical, and yet, bearing an edge in every possible direction. Because of this "loop back", a lightsabre never actually drains any of its power cell, other than at its instance of activation and while forcing it through something.
Auspex... well, as we've seen in numerous SM scenarios, auspex isn't really all that reliable, and is often fooled by planetary flora, local fauna, radiation, a brisk wind, or because the machine-spirit is having a snit.
Shotguns?
Sure. My Jedi are wearing their GAR battlearmor, reinforced with cortosis weave. This makes them las-proof *and* lightsabre proof, while also providing superior protection to most solid ammunition payloads. Armor piercing rounds are still effective... but shotguns arent known to carry AP rounds.
A single Jedi vs an entire squad? Maybe. A single squad vs an equal number of Jedi? Much, much less likely.
Scout Squad? Mm... no. No Power Armor, just carapace, no auspex, and the Jedi can hear their minds.
But there is something called an auspex and last time i check the jedi do not have cloaking technology.
They do. In several forms. There's even a Force power that renders you utterly invisible to any form of artificial sense. Basically, you become invisible to droids, scanners, sensors, cameras, etc.
Space Marine armor would immedately detect a plasma sword, That is what theoritically a light saber is, it basically at the tip of the sword has a deflector that deflects the so called *energy* back to the handle.
No, that's not how lightsabres work. The blade is a plasma-like laser that loops back on itself because of a sort of magnet in the handle, not a deflector at the tip of the blade. The sword is, at once, perfectly cylindrical, and yet, bearing an edge in every possible direction. Because of this "loop back", a lightsabre never actually drains any of its power cell, other than at its instance of activation and while forcing it through something.
Auspex... well, as we've seen in numerous SM scenarios, auspex isn't really all that reliable, and is often fooled by planetary flora, local fauna, radiation, a brisk wind, or because the machine-spirit is having a snit.
Shotguns?
Sure. My Jedi are wearing their GAR battlearmor, reinforced with cortosis weave. This makes them las-proof *and* lightsabre proof, while also providing superior protection to most solid ammunition payloads. Armor piercing rounds are still effective... but shotguns arent known to carry AP rounds.
A single Jedi vs an entire squad? Maybe. A single squad vs an equal number of Jedi? Much, much less likely.
Scout Squad? Mm... no. No Power Armor, just carapace, no auspex, and the Jedi can hear their minds.
Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone.
Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone
Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.
The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.
From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.
I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.
Sadly i disagree a chainsword has adamantium and we do not know what a solid slug round and a EXPLOSIVE round would do to the battle armor of a clone
Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.
The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.
From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.
I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.
So your saying that a chainsword made from a material that doesn't exist in the starwars universe cannot cut through a material for that all we know could be considered paper compared to adamantium? And the fact that Ceramite might be considered to be more protective? YOU DO NOT KNOW!
Ceramite by nature is heat resistant! For all we know their plasma or light or what ever could be considered a lasgun saber for all we know! The fact is we will never know!
And if it is a squad of marines vs a squad of 4 jedi. I'm sorry but the jedi lose. The jedi would be slaughtered as the head shots would give them concussions and there ya go the space marines rip them limb from limb with their bare hands.
NOW IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT Starkiller, Then Starkiller wins except if he is facing a Chief Librarian, The Chief Librarian would just flick his finger and Starkiller would explode into thousands of pieces.
Pretty sure a Librarian is on equal footing with the average Jedi. A full squad of Space Marines can probably take a single Jedi, although some of them, (one of the ones people actually know and care about) could probably take on a Space Marine squad. I think there might be lots more Space Marines then there are Jedi though, so if the two groups went head to head, I think the Space Marines will probably come out ahead.
Psienesis wrote:
Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.
1) We know nothing about cortosis, only that it's resistant against lightsabres. However, a chainsword is NOT a lightsabre, and is in fact a physical weapon. Just like a bullet proof vest won't stop a knife, the cortosis won't necessarily stop the physical chainsword blade, or even the physical blade of the power sword.
Even if the cortosis armor resist the physical blade, the sheer momentum of being struck with an object being swung by a superhuman is going to hurt.
The explosive round of a boltgun is mass-reactive. It only blows up after it's inside someone/something.
It's designed to do so, but that doesn't mean it can't explode if its outside the target, or if the shot misses.
From my personal combat experience, a shotgun is a pisspoor weapon of choice, slug or shot, unless you're fighting door to door in an urban environment. It lacks range and rate of fire and has gimpy holding capacity, unless drum or box-fed... they're also absolutely heavy as hell. The latter not much of a concern to SM, obviously.
I can tell you that a solid shotgun slug doesn't do gak against military hard armor.
Only Jedi don't wear heavy armor. Even on the front lines of the Clone Wars, they seemed to prefer the mobility granted by their robes than to wear heavy plate armor. Besides, against a Jedi I can see one great argument for using buckshot.
THere is no way in hell he can block ALL the pellets.
Besides, against a Jedi I can see one great argument for using buckshot. THere is no way in hell he can block ALL the pellets.
In fact this is the way to kill jedi in the RPG. that and things that go boom. So squad of SM goes up against a jedi, throws frags, and that's all she wrote but many special weapons marines get on a regular basis would decimate the Jedi. Flamers, melta, shotguns, massed bolterfire and grenades. Bar the shotgun, my GH can get all of those in a full squad. The flamer douses an area with holy promethium, the rest of the squad throws frags/rapid fires into the area the jedi was, and the Meltaguy shoots anything that tries to forcejump away.
As for light sabers, I can see powerweapon being equal to a lightsaber. Neither will cut through the other, but both will cut through just about anything else.
An interesting side note; the scale of technologies appear to be vastly different. Star Wars tech often appears far more sophisticated than the Imperium's tech, but that may not be the case. In Star Wars, it took decades of careful planning and high-tech construction to build a Death Star, a machine capable of destroying planets. But the Imperium has the same capabilty, which is more portable, capable, and far more widespread than a single space station.
Jedi from the films would get annihilated soundly. Those guys don't have much going for them except fast reactions and a laser sword.
Somehow, Jedi from non-films are physical gods capable of bending reality to their will, or somesuch. How that came to be is a mystery since none of the jedi in any of the films displays anything remotely like the non-film jedi.
DarknessEternal wrote:Jedi from the films would get annihilated soundly. Those guys don't have much going for them except fast reactions and a laser sword.
Somehow, Jedi from non-films are physical gods capable of bending reality to their will, or somesuch. How that came to be is a mystery since none of the jedi in any of the films displays anything remotely like the non-film jedi.
As I understand, Star Wars has the same 'The Magic Goes Away' trope alot of fantasy series do.
In the past (thousands of years before the movies) the Jedi were apparently much more powerful as there are stories of lone Jedi defeating whole armies by themselves, and whole world being won or lost by one side having a Jedi/Sith leading them, and the other side not.
Alright, but the answers are in the tabletop versions of either game, and before you start yelling fluff at me, hear me out. RPGs are the tools by which we quantify fluff.
If you port a jedi into 40k, he'd be considered a psyker with a force weapon. Lets be generous and say that between his supernatural dexterity, precognition, defensive properties of his weapon of choice, and intense training, a jedi might earn a 2+ invul save. It would certainly account for the significant number of deflected shots in the crap-tastic prequel films; but since they always die from the shot that slips through, we'll say 1 wound. The jedi is probably a match for 3 space marines. If we throw in some psyker powers, it can maybe handle a 5 man squad.
Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.
In the SW Saga tabletop RPG, space marine wouldn't just be a racial choice with a few +2s here and there, it would likely be a template that was worth multiple character levels. In the SWRPG, if you want to earn Jedi-knighthood you need to be around 7th character level. If you wanted to be the equivalent of a space marine, the amount of feats you'd need to take would probably take about 9 character levels just to be a neophyte; all soldier levels to get the weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, physical resistances, saving throw increases, and combat maneuvers that the average space marine demonstrates in most of the stories featuring space marines, higher if they're a named character with some valiant history of insane heroism.
Assuming we were on an even playing field, a single space marine, built in the SWRPG universe, would have no problem dispatching at least 2 or 3 jedi knights before taking enough damage to die.
Now, once we bring jedi-masters into it, we have to determine whether or not force powers and psyker powers are interchangeable, because it might be more reasonable to compare one to a librarian.
Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.
What.
Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.
A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.
And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.
RE: Exterminatus - OTOH its an energy based weapon that one-shots a planet, and can be used more often than most 40k starship weapons. I dont' believe the IOM has that. edited due to post lag time making the above make no sense
CoI wrote:OTOH its an energy based weapon that one-shots a planet, and can be used more often than most 40k starship weapons. I dont' believe the IOM has that.
The original Death Star's superlaser took a full day to recharge, and couldn't be aimed at anything smaller than a planet.
The second death star could recharge ship destroying shots faster, but it still took longer to recharge to planet killing levels.
Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.
What.
Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.
A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.
And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.
Krak grenades pull matter in and frag grenades push matter out.
Bolters use the same feature.
Thermal detonators are based heat because thermal = air so technically detonating the air which theoritically is possible but its not as bad as sucking in air.
And seeing their effect knigts of the old republic they aren't that powerful.
Now, if we bring a space marine into the star wars universe... the accounting changes significantly. Far stronger and tougher than humans; armed with weapons that don't just sizzle harmlessly off of walls and doors, grenades that put thermal detonators to shame, and the fortitude to withstand a number of wounds lethal to a standard mortal man. A single space marine in the soft, fluffy, gentle world of star wars could probably go on a rampage through a jedi temple and mow down faceless extras left and right. Resistant to their mind affecting bs and armed to the teeth, he'd probably find lightsabers to be an annoyance, as his exploding shells knock the glowing sticks across the room with the weilder's hands still attached.
What.
Thermal detonators atomize anything in their blast radius.
A single Space Marine could not plow through an entire Jedi temple.
And bolt shells would not transfer enough kinetic energy to the lightsaber or the weilder's hands to rip the hands off of a Jedi.
Krak grenades pull matter in and frag grenades push matter out. Bolters use the same feature. Thermal detonators are based heat because thermal = air so technically detonating the air which theoritically is possible but its not as bad as sucking in air. And seeing their effect knigts of the old republic they aren't that powerful.
"Thermal" is not describing the explosion, but the process by which the weapon explodes. The actual explosion is an expanding field that atomizes material within it.
And please tell me you did not just use the KoToR stats to "prove" that thermal detonators are weaker than frag grenades.
Thermal detonators are pretty much meltabombs aren't they? or at least the effect is about the same. Turns everything in a small area into molten slag? I'll admit, my Star wars knowledge is lacking as I haven't really paid attention to anything made in the last 10 years or so, bar a few games
purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.
I think the question is less 'who would win one-on-one' but more 'if there were a Jedi vs Astartes campaign, what sort of numbers would each side need for it to be a fair fight?'
Not having a massive familiarity with SW outside of having seen the films a few times and played some of the nintendo games, I don't really feel qualified to say much. It does seem to me like the Jedi footsoldiers in ep2 would have been annihilated by outnumbering opponents firing bolter rounds on full auto, but as I understand it there's much 'historical era' context on either side; are we talking ep1 or golden age Jedi, M41 Chapters or pre-heresy Legions led by Primarchs, or what? I can't see Yoda lasting long against a Magnus/Ahriman tag-team...
I suppose the good old Jedy would classify as delta or lower level psykers (except for some of them, who would MAYBE, and I say MAYBE, reach beta level), as the fluff gives alpha levels telekines as fully capable of tearing a warlord titan in two (while a powerful pre-imperial jedy (read: Yoda) struggles to hoist a tank weighting a few tons at best...), while even a beta telepath is able to completely mind-control entire hives. In addition, even low-ish level psykers are fully capable of destroying opponent's minds from half a planet away (seen in almost every single BL book...), while Jedy's seem to possess no such powers (but I may be mistaken...).
I believe light-sabres to be on par with master-crafted power swords, as full energy versions of those exists, being comparable with very good solid-bladed pws.
As for ranged weaponry, most common man-portable weapons from the Star Wars universe seem fairly weak, with common blasters being at the same level with common las-weaponry in effects (they don't seem to kill unarmored human targets when not hitting a vital point), so I suppose full-auto, spread or flame weapon should be a bad surprise for them (they don't seem to be used as much in SW), while I suppose heavy weapons of both universe would spell death for anyone anyway.
What do you think of something like this as a profile for a common, humanoid jedy knight?
ws5 bs4 s4 t3 i6 w1 a2 (or maybe 3) ld9
as for saves, I'd say a permanent 3+ cover save (to rapresent their light-sabre waving being unable to stop a flamer or something like that) and a 4+ inv. save in cc.
I'd give them a mcpw as equipment, psychic mastery 1 with something like a minor lash-like power, some psychic shooting attack (for Sith only), a power giving them a 3+ inv for the next turn and maybe something like weaken resolve or a power causing a pinning check?
Alpha level Psykers are exceedingly rare, if stupidly powerful. Are they stronger than Jedi at the absolute height of their power? Probably not if this thread is anything to go by.
Then, put in an Eversor and Jedy become Eldars with shiny power swords and no armour... admitting they don't just have a siezure for the shut down of their midiclorians (with them being psychic symbiotic creatures). Now you just have to fit an Eversor assassin in a power armour. Anyway, has a blank ever been inducted in a sm chapter/legion?
Maniac_nmt wrote:
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.
A Star Detroyer is a mile long.
An Imperial Navy Cobra class destroyer (the smallest, weakest escort in the Imperial Navy) is a mile long.
MOst Imperial Navy cruisers are 5-6 miles long.
An Imperial Navy battleship is 12 miles long.
Star Destroyers are much, MUCH smaller than Imperial Navy cruisers, and are in fact comparable in size to escorts.
If you get to use Jedi powerful enough to pull cap ships down from orbit, then the Marines get to use people like Marneus Calgar and so on. This isn't about combat between exceptional individual Jedi, it's between bog standard Jedi, and bog standard Space marines.
purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.
StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChrisWWII wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:And his point still stands.
If you get to use Jedi powerful enough to pull cap ships down from orbit, then the Marines get to use people like Marneus Calgar and so on. This isn't about combat between exceptional individual Jedi, it's between bog standard Jedi, and bog standard Space marines.
Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.
The grades continue on down through the letters of the Greek alphabet. Grade Sigma and below are levels of "anti-psychic power". Such people are more commonly known as "psychic blanks" since they cannot be detected, manipulated or affected by psychic means and possess the pariah gene.
The psychic power the top four grades represents is immense. A high Delta level can read the minds of all the people in a good-sized town simultaneously, or crush a man to death against a wall in seconds. High-grade psykers are extremely powerful, and not to be taken lightly. Beta grade is the highest level of psychic power that a human can attain and still be considered sane.
An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally.
purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.
StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!
Actually, I can come up with more. Ulic Qel-Doma, Alema Keeto, Naomi Sunrider, and Exar Kun for example (Alema mind controls an entire fleet including a group of Jedi, Kun can fly, defeats a race of super assasins, and took 1000 Jedi to beat, Qel-Doma is noted for being able to override the most powerful anti-force objects going, and Sunrider can permanantly destroy your connection to the force, even against uber jedi), . A Jedi's power is basically all in self belief. If a Jedi believes they can accomplish something, they can do it (effectively Yoda's words in ESB). Not saying invincible, but a fair site better than you give 'em credit for.
The Jedi around the time of Episodes 1-3, shouldn't take more then a whole chapter to beat as a Librarian, while not quite as spiffy, is pretty close and can ensure a nulification of some of their mind games (which should work okay on some Marine otherwise, as Marines are hypo-trained).
purplefood wrote:Since we don't know quite how jedi force powers work we don't know whether a Librarian would be their equal in power or not.
As it is the battle would be incredibly bloody but i'd say 2/3 chapters (full strength codex sixed) would be fair maybe another chapter or so depending on which time peroid.
When Librarians start pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky (i.e. something larger than many 40k cruisers), then we know.
StarKiller is not a relliable source for all jedi to be like
Starkiller had a ton of powers and he is the most powerful jedi. NOT ALL JEDI ARE LIKE THAT!
Actually, I can come up with more. Ulic Qel-Doma, Alema Keeto, and Exar Kun for example (Alema mind controls an entire fleet including a group of Jedi, Kun can fly, defeats a race of super assasins, and took 1000 Jedi to beat, Qel-Doma is noted for being able to override the most powerful anti-force objects going), . A Jedi's power is basically all in self belief. If a Jedi believes they can accomplish something, they can do it (effectively Yoda's words in ESB). Not saying invincible, but a fair site better than you give 'em credit for
Except for the fact they were sith..... Not Jedi.....
JEDI NOT SITH!
Asherian Command wrote:
Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.
*snip*
What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying that we're NOT using special Jedi like Starkiller, Yoda, etc. or using special Marines like Calgar (or Primarchs like Mangus).
Having played both miniatures games back in the 90s.....this is what I see
Librarian + vortex power + ultimate power force card = instant death on any model
jedi + uincanny dodge could roll enough 6s to dodge the radius...
So, really it depends on the dice rolls. I remember in the SW miniature war game that 6s stacked, meaning if you rolled one you rolled again and added it to your score, if you kept rolling 6s you kept adding them. Uncanny luck and uncanny dodge allowed you to reroll and dodge allowed you to dodge. There is no deflecting a black hole, but perhaps you could dodge it.
Asherian Command wrote:
Is magnus an Alpha Level Pysker?
I know Starkiller is not an alpha level pysker probably a little bit lower.
And please read the psychic abilities. On the wiki please.
*snip*
What does that have to do with anything?
I'm saying that we're NOT using special Jedi like Starkiller, Yoda, etc. or using special Marines like Calgar (or Primarchs like Mangus).
And I know the psychic power levels.
I was asking a question :(
but lets face it we will never know
DarkAngelz wrote:But a jedi cant block a flamer with his light saber
No, he just throws the burning fuel back onto the SM with the Force.
The flamer would be the least effective weapon, in my opinion.
I dunno, why wouldn't the Jedi just pull the fuel tank off the flamer with the force and let it explode in the marine's hands?
He could. He could also jam bolters, and throw back grenades.
I can see all that happening but what I don't think is possible, even for the Jedi Masters is to take on a whole chapter of marines. So much concentration goes into those things and the Jedi are in far more limited numbers than space marines. I think 1 vs 1 the Jedi probably has the upper hand in many cases, but all out war....I think I would lean towards the Marines. I mean for one the Jedi haven't been waging war for 10s of thousands of years, and Marines have.
I would have to say that it depends on the Jedi to settle this question. A normal Jedi Knight would be better than one or possibly a few space marines. An entire squad of 10 Space Marines would eat a Jedi alive after losing a few of their number though.
Let's put these two armies down on the ground for battle and forget starships and such (makes things easier I think). I assume a Jedi might be able to take down a rhino possibly by utilising his powers. A heavier tank would be a problem. Most jedi would propably be in trouble from bolter fire. Especially when there are several of them pointed at them. In CC I say Jedi win but marines are still not easy to take down.
5 marines for 1 jedi would be quite close to being equal I think. Assuming we forget Yoda, Mace Windu, Calgar, Lysander and such.
Had a thread like this a whiel ago. To make it a little easier i tried to make a unit entry for a Jedi. Hopefully, if we can agree on a statline for a Jedi someone can mathhammer the contest and get an answer.
To play a little devils advocate first.....You have to keep in mind that the entire Jedi Order was nearly wiped out by clone troopers, who are themselves a wimpy shadow of a Marine. A major obstacle for the Jedi woudl be the psycho-indoctrination that all marines have in training. My thought is that this would reinforce their minds and make them a lot less suseptible to mind trick, suggestion or pursuasion based Force powers.
Anyway, jedi Statline.....Here's what i came up with:
Jedi Master 120pts
WS 6
BS 3
T 4
S 3
I 5
A 3
W 1
Ld 10
Sv 5+ (4+/3+)
Wargear:
Lightsaber - the lightsaber is a weapon of legend. Utilising a coherent energy beam channeled through a focusing crystal and then projected from an emitter in the hilt, the beam itself is able to cut through all but the most dense substances. Due to this the lightsaber counts as a Relic Blade (hits with S6 and ignores armour saves)
The lightsaber is also used by the Jedi in defense. Utilising their speed a jedi is able to use the lightsaber to intercept and sometimes even deflect ranged attacks. Due to its limited length the jedi is obviously more effective in close quarters. The lightsaber provides the jedi with a 4+ Invulnerable save against ranged attacks and a 3+ in close combat.
Jedi Combat Pads - Although they do not often wear full armour, jedi in times of war have been known to wear combat armour for protection from basic attacks. This grants the Jedi a 5+ armour save.
Special Rules:
Fleet Furious Charge Move Through Cover The Force- The force is found in all living things. In combat the Jedi use the force to boost their awareness of a situation as well as granting them unnatural speed & resilience. Using the Force in combat grants the Jedi 2+ I & 1+ T (all included in profile)
Options:
Saber Upgrades:
The Jedi may choose one of the following saber upgrades.
Double Bladed Saber (10 pts)-To some Jedi, one blade just is not enough. These jedi modify their saber so it projects a blade form each end of the hilt. If this is taken the Jedi may Re-roll 1 failed to-wound dice per assault phase.
Shoto (10 pts)- A Shoto is a smaller version of a lightsaber, with a smaller hilt projecting a slightly shorter blade. This gives the jedi the option of tying up an opponents weapon while leaving their main saber available to strike a killing blow. A Jedi with a Shoto gains an extra attack in cc.
Dual-Phase Saber (15 pts) - Some jedi build their sabers with a second crystal assembly within. When this second crystal is brought into line the sabers blade is extended, making the weapon much longer, although more difficult to wield. A Jedi with this type of saber is able to make a charge move of 9", although they also suffer a -1 modifer to their attacks.
Light-Whip (15 pts) - The Light-Whip is a mix of whip and lightsaber. It incorporates a mix of mono-filament lashes and lightsaber crystals to create a truly fearsome weapon. A Llightwhip grants the Jedi an extra attack in cc and wounds on a 2+.
Force Powers
The Jedi may choose 2 of the following Force powers to augment himself in combat:
Force Choke (10 pts): In the shooting phase the jedi may use the force to try and crush the windpipe of his opponent. The jedi may use this attack on one model within 12". Take a Leadership test, if passed the target immediately suffers a S6 hit (roll to wound as normal) which ignores armour saves. Note that Force choke can only be used against living targets and therefore will not affect vehicles/robots/drones etc. Also some targets are simply to massive to be felled by such an attacks. Force choke has no effect on tagets with an unmodified Toughness value of 5 or more.
Lightsaber Throw (15 pts):In the shooting phase the jedi may throw his lightsaber at his opponent, guiding it using the force. Select a single target model with 24". Each player rolls a single D6+ their intiative. If the jedi wins the target is hit with a normal lightsaber attack, if the opponent wins the lightsaber has missed and returns to the jedis hand. If the lightsaber misses the Jedi suffers a -1 modifier to his attacks that turn..
Force Lightning (10 pts):During the shooting phase the Jedi may use the force to summon lightning from his fingertips. Force lightning fires with the following profile:
Template, S4, AP-, No cover save.
Force Resiliency (10 pts):The Jedi can use the force to augment his body to supreme levels of resiliency and give himself protection against all manner of biological attacks. The Jedi may opt to use this power at the start of the first turn and it will hold for the entire game. Any poison attacks used against the jedi will wound using the normal T vs S table rather than on their special stats.
Force Pull (15 points):The Jedi uses the Force to pull a target towards himself, making it easier to strike them down. This power is used during the Shooting phase instead of any other weapon or power. Select a single non-vehicle model or IC with 18". On a successful Ld test, the jedi my "pull" the target D6" towards himself.
Shatterpoint (25 pts):The skill of Shatterpoint revolves around the force user looking at the molecular makeup of an object and finding the exact spot where the application of an exact force will destroy the target utterly. This power is used at the start of a Jedi assault phase. Choose a target with 6" (the jedi OR the target may already be in close combat). Roll a D6, on a roll of 5+ the target will suffer a -2 modifier to their armour save for the remainder of the game as their body armour is fractured beyond repair.
Force Mind Trick (20 pts):Using the force, the jedi can cloud the mind of his opponent. This power is more easily used against the weak minded, but can affect even the most battle hardened warrior if the jedi has sufficient skill. During the shooting phase, choose a target within LOS and 12", take a Leadership test, if successful roll a D6. If the roll is equal to or higher than the targets intiative, the mind trick has worked. A roll of 6 will always mean a successful mind trick. Any target that suffers a successful Mind Trick attack has their intiative reduced to 1 for the remainder of the turn and they may not shoot in their next shooting phase.
Force Throw (20 pts) - The jedi utilises the force to cause loose debris and detrius in the area to bombard his opponent. This power is used at the start of the assault phase. Pick an enemy unit with 12". Upon a successful leadership test the target unit his hit with 2D6 S3 Ap- attacks as loose rocks, battle wreckage and other debris are flung towards them in a flurry. Normal saving throws apply.
Re Jedi having 1W because they're seen to die to single rounds from las weapon equivalents.
Let's not forget a couple of things here.
40K does not represent 'critical hits' (Rending aside). Whereas in the fluff, Vindicares take out planetary leaders with single shots whilst freefalling off a building through a mesh of fire, in the game a 3W senior officer will never, ever die as a result of a Vindicare Assassin shooting him between the eyes with a single turbo-penetrator, and it'll take at least three rounds of a Heavy Bolter - a weapon that'd reduce any human to giblets in one shot - getting through his refractor field to put him down.
This is a ludological necessity to make a game full of Napoleonic frontline leaders fun to play, despite the fact that even showing officer stripes on your arm can mean headexplodey the moment a capable sniper comes within half a mile of you. This is similar to how Marines have massively toned-down statlines ingame to make an eye-pleasing collection of them have an even fight with an eye-pleasing collection of Guard; in the fluff, a Tactical Squad would probably reduce several platoons to a fine red mist before one of them had his sci-fi paint scratched. But that doesn't mean that a skilful or lucky shot to a Terminator Captain's eyepiece wouldn't pulverise his brain and kill him outright.
Given that Luke Skywalker (yes, an exceptional individual, but by the same token not fully trained) was able to make a difficult escape after losing a hand in a terrifying melee, I think it's safe to say that Jedi are not going to curl up into a ball and die every time they get clipped by lasfire, and on a 40K tabletop can safely be given a W stat appropriate for a heroic individual.
Jango Fett with a blaster pistol was able to kill one by... Shooting at him. Whoa.
And yes, EU.
This is not "Yoda vs. a Space Marine" or "Darth Nihilus vs. a Space Marine" or anything stupid like that.
While I have no doubt a sufficiently powerful wielder of the Force, such as Nihilus, Luke Skywalker, or Galen Marek, could beat nearly any Space Marine (The only exceptions being maybe some Primarchs... Oh, and Draigo, perhaps), the average Jedi cannot mess with a Space Marine with a bolter.
To be honest, I doubt a lightsaber could reliably harm Power Armour. Ceramite is very resistant to heat, IIRC some Marines in their armour have survived Exterminatus, the atmosphere being essentially ignited.
The average Jedi can be killed by blaster fire. Let alone bolter fire.
I would say the biggest problem would be parrying a bolt round.
the first time you do that, the shell will explode and shower the jedi with Shrapnel. sure, he won't try that again, but that assumes he survives. 1 bolt round exploding might not do it, but 3 or 4 would.
a bolt round, if the Jedi wasn't careful, might be liable to explode when the Jedi used to force to redirect it again putting shrapnel into the equation(which those little Jedi robes arn't going to help against)
a Jedi, one on one, would be able to handle a space marine, but if there were multiple marines the Jedi would be in trouble. Unless the Jedi was Yoda, Anakin, Obi-wan, or Mace. They would take more force to bring them down.
The jedi would easily deflect the SM bolter and plasma weaponry, some of them are bound to hit the necks or the wiring of the SM. And if the SM would come with a rocket launcher then the Jedi would use their force powers and just return to sender. However if a librarian would come into action the Jedi wouldn't stand a chance
Hasn't this already been debated? The Jedi can, and will deflect bolt rounds, whether it be with the force or a light saber. Said Jedi will not however be able to deflect the shots of a whole tac squad on full auto.
4M2A wrote:However they are known to be able to use the force to return small missiles so should be able to do the same to bolters.
Sure. But Jedi have limits.
How many bolts can they return to sender at the same time? 1? 2? A dozen? Sooner or later a few marines on full auto are going to get through. Maybe some shrapnel at first to hurt the Jedi and distract them with the pain, so they can't use the force as well, but once the Jedi has been distracted, a bolt will hilt them, and once that happens, the Jedi is dead.
It depends on the jedi. If its Yoda or Mace, that company could get there arses handed to them. If its a padawan/apprentice or one of those jedi who got killed in the first 5 seconds against the emperor, than a squad could kill them.
Boltguns of either variety ("human" or Astartes-grade) have a base maximum of 2 shots a round in the Deathwatch RPG, while the Heavy Bolter caps at 10 and the Stormbolter at... urgh, memory failing but either 4, 5 or 10... just don't remember off the top of my head, and my DW players all kit their Stormbolters out to make them garden hoses of death, so I don't know if I am recalling base stats or their modified stats.
The boltgun's 2-shots-a-round indicates two pulls of the trigger... either that or an amazingly slow rate of fire for an automatic weapon, slow like: "Bang! *three second pause* Bang!"
The Heavy Bolter spits death at an appreciable rate, being, well, a fully-automatic squad support weapon. Ten rocket-bullets a round, with the possibility to score hits with most of those rounds (assuming appropriate skill and wargear), pulps most normal targets.
The Stormbolter is sort of the happy medium, though is available only to the Astartes, and eats up ammo fairly quickly... but when you positively, absolutely need to kill every motherfething xeno in the room, accept no substitute.
Incidentally, most modern assault rifles do not have a full-auto setting. They have Safe (no shots), Semi (one trigger-pull, one shot) and Burst (one trigger pull releases 3 to 5 shots).
Though whatever you posted there is either a broken link or the company firewall I'm sitting behind doesn't allow me to view it.
Of course, in either event, it would hardly be the first time that 40K fluff is contradictory.
according to the Munitorum Manuel, Bolters have Semi-auto, 3 rounds burst, and Full-auto settings.
a Stormbolter is simply 2 bolters stuck together as a single weapon so double the rate of fire of a normal bolter.
I think bolters have a fairly high rate of fire on Full-auto. This is because the Munitorum Manuel warns guardsmen to NEVER fire a bolter on anything but semi-auto as a higher rate can rip the arm out of its socket and break bones. a single shot is enough to severly bruise your arm. Human arms are fairly durable. if bolters can break them on full-auto that has to be a very high RoF. you basically need augmetics or power armor to fire a bolter at full capacity.
A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.
The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.
So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.
So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.
according to the Munitorum Manuel, Bolters have Semi-auto, 3 rounds burst, and Full-auto settings.
So, basically, we have a conflict of information in two GW-approved products, neither of which are a Codex, one of which is mocked up to be a book out of the 41st century.
This is why debates like these go on like this! The "canon" doesn't even agree with itself! Though, in this case, this is a fluff-problem, not canonical, since the Munitorum Manual is another Black Library publication (described as a "background book") and DW is an RPG published by FFG.
EDIT: Also, yes, bolt-rounds are "mass reactive", meaning their explosive payloads aren't triggered until inside of something, whether that "something" is a body or the armor-plate of a vehicle it failed to penetrate. They don't just blow up in mid-flight, if they did this would be rather wasteful of otherwise precious ammo. Theoretically, you could lightsabre/powersword a bolt-in-flight out of the air with little harmful effect.
iproxtaco wrote:Nope. Not sure what your point is.
So they only explode when they enter body?
Nevermind...
Still not sure, but yes, that's the point of them.
I was thinking...
If bolter shells explodes on contact then they would explode the moment jedi lightsaber deflect them.
And then the fragments from bolter shell would wound him, maybe probably kill him.
But since that 's not the case, I would go with he can't deflect all of bolter shells fired at him...
Psienesis wrote:Citation, please, as this directly contradicts their A-Canon information.
To be blunt, the feats largely support this as well. Sidious has lifted 2.2 kilometer long ships with the power of the Force. He drained the entire planet of Byss (I believe was its name) over time using the Force for sustenance. He could create Warpstorms, wormholes that could destroy fleets and the surfaces of planets. The only other Sith Lord who could do this type of crap using the Force was Darth Nihilus, by feats the only Sith with a realistic claim of rivaling Sidious.
But then there are statements.
Just found this quote, is apparently from page 84 of the New Essential Chronology by Dan Wallace.
""Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda were the only Jedi left in a position to do something about the disaster. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Oh, and the Revenge of the Sith novelization also states Sidious the strongest Sith Lord ever, though cannot recall the quote or page. That is G-Canon.
Well, as long as we're discounting the Force Unleashed video games, where a single Jedi is basically a god (they are far more subdued in movies and novels), then the average Librarian would probably hold their own against a Jedi. Of course, psychic powers in the 40K universe have a much higher upper end of the spectrum, especially once you start delving into sorcery. If we look towards the descriptions of Alpha/Alpha+ levels of psyker or the description of the Thousand Sons when they cut loose towards the end of their novel, I would think they would curb-stomp even the Force Unleashed Jedi.
Omegus wrote:Well, as long as we're discounting the Force Unleashed video games, where a single Jedi is basically a god (they are far more subdued in movies and novels), then the average Librarian would probably hold their own against a Jedi. Of course, psychic powers in the 40K universe have a much higher upper end of the spectrum, especially once you start delving into sorcery. If we look towards the descriptions of Alpha/Alpha+ levels of psyker or the description of the Thousand Sons when they cut loose towards the end of their novel, I would think they would curb-stomp even the Force Unleashed Jedi.
Yeah, for the most part, psykers in 40k don't reach the level of the best of Star Wars, with the Emperor being an obvious exception. Maybe Magnus too, who was capable of dispelling Ahriman's spell that affected the entire Thousand Sons Legion with only a gesture (Actually might have been less than that). But then Magnus is probably the strongest psyker in 40k short of the Emperor.
But Force Unleashed, while powerful, is not the best Star Wars has either.
Out of curiosity, what did the Thousand Sons do at the end of their novel?
Magnus never dispelled the Rubric, so I'm not sure what you mean.
Towards the end, they unleashed pretty cataclysmic levels of destruction, easily rivaling that of the most ridiculous displays of power from any Star Wars materials, including games, graphic novels, Darth Bane books, etc.
Anyway, in my opinion Jedi lose automatically because Lucas ruined Star Wars with the new trilogy. I mean, any series of films that makes Darth Vader into a pansy crybaby ruins the whole mythology. Star Wars is dead to me, and like Patton Oswald, the first thing I'd do with a time machine would be to go back to circa 1993, and murder George Lucas with a shovel.
Omegus wrote:Magnus never dispelled the Rubric, so I'm not sure what you mean.
Towards the end, they unleashed pretty cataclysmic levels of destruction, easily rivaling that of the most ridiculous displays of power from any Star Wars materials, including games, graphic novels, Darth Bane books, etc.
Anyway, in my opinion Jedi lose automatically because Lucas ruined Star Wars with the new trilogy. I mean, any series of films that makes Darth Vader into a pansy crybaby ruins the whole mythology. Star Wars is dead to me, and like Patton Oswald, the first thing I'd do with a time machine would be to go back to circa 1993, and murder George Lucas with a shovel.
Yuh huh.
"No sorcerous ward or physical defenses could keep the wild powers at bay. The storm of magic raged for an eternal night, which could have been days or centuries, until Magnus himself used his unearthly powers to end it."
- Chaos Marines codex, page 51
Psienesis wrote:Doesn't matter, really, since the cortosis weave makes it immune to a lightsabre (and, by extension, a power sword). The chainsword is just going to throw sparks off it and squeal.
Cortosis is no longer canon. Neither is beskar. Lucas decided he didn't like it with his Clone Wars cartoon, so that's that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:Yuh huh.
"No sorcerous ward or physical defenses could keep the wild powers at bay. The storm of magic raged for an eternal night, which could have been days or centuries, until Magnus himself used his unearthly powers to end it."
- Chaos Marines codex, page 51
Fair enough, he stopped the accompanying conflagration, but his stopping it didn't do anything for the Thousand Sons enhanced/disintegrated by the main spell itself.
Omegus wrote:Fair enough, he stopped the accompanying conflagration, but his stopping it didn't do anything for the Thousand Sons enhanced/disintegrated by the main spell itself.
Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut
It's one of my favorite books of the Horus Heresy series. Really underlines the tragedy of the Thousand Sons' fall. Magnus may have deserved his fate, but his sons certainly did not. The book cemented Ahriman as my favorite character in all of 40K, and also forged in me an unyielding hatred and contempt for the Space Wolves.
Anyway, to answer your question about the level of cataclysm they unleashed, here's probably the most extreme example, edited for brevity:
Phael Toron rose out of the crater in blaze of lightning. Hissing blood streamed from his armour andwhipping arcs of power blazed at his fingertips. His armour shone with inner luminescence asthough it contained the fiery heart of a plasma reactor. With eyes saturated with aetheric energy,Phael Toron saw the hellish battlescape before him in all its visceral horror.
He took in the vista with a glance and his rage spilled out in atorrent of force. Those enemy warriors closest to him were hurled back, the armour peeled from their bodies and their flesh torn from their bones. The furred abominations that ran with Russ’ warriors exploded in bright smears, their inner light snuffed out in an instant with alien cries of rage. Phael Toron floated over the battlefield, his arms extended from his side as he swatted enemy warriors from his path with his thoughts.
A blizzard of explosive shells streamed from the cannons of three dreadnoughts, wolf-clad machines adorned like totemistic idols. Phael Toron unmade the first, disassembling it into its component parts with a gesture. He felt the anguish of the desolate scrap of flesh at its heart as it died, and took pleasure in its terror. In a fit of dark amusement, he turned the remaining two up on one another, letting their guns rip each other apart until nothing remained save torn fragments of smoking metal. A pair of Predator battle tanks opened fire on him. He lifted the vehicles from the ground andhurled them out to sea, laughing at the horrified faces of the Space Wolves. They fell back, gathering in frightened packs as they cowered in ruins of their own making.
Of course, shortly after, his Tutelary gained control over his body, and he exploded with the force of an atom bomb. But hey, it was a fun ride while it lasted.
Omegus wrote:It's one of my favorite books of the Horus Heresy series. Really underlines the tragedy of the Thousand Sons' fall. Magnus may have deserved his fate, but his sons certainly did not. The book cemented Ahriman as my favorite character in all of 40K, and also forged in me an unyielding hatred and contempt for the Space Wolves.
Anyway, to answer your question about the level of cataclysm they unleashed, here's probably the most extreme example, edited for brevity:
Phael Toron rose out of the crater in blaze of lightning. Hissing blood streamed from his armour andwhipping arcs of power blazed at his fingertips. His armour shone with inner luminescence asthough it contained the fiery heart of a plasma reactor. With eyes saturated with aetheric energy,Phael Toron saw the hellish battlescape before him in all its visceral horror.
He took in the vista with a glance and his rage spilled out in atorrent of force. Those enemy warriors closest to him were hurled back, the armour peeled from their bodies and their flesh torn from their bones. The furred abominations that ran with Russ’ warriors exploded in bright smears, their inner light snuffed out in an instant with alien cries of rage. Phael Toron floated over the battlefield, his arms extended from his side as he swatted enemy warriors from his path with his thoughts.
A blizzard of explosive shells streamed from the cannons of three dreadnoughts, wolf-clad machines adorned like totemistic idols. Phael Toron unmade the first, disassembling it into its component parts with a gesture. He felt the anguish of the desolate scrap of flesh at its heart as it died, and took pleasure in its terror. In a fit of dark amusement, he turned the remaining two up on one another, letting their guns rip each other apart until nothing remained save torn fragments of smoking metal. A pair of Predator battle tanks opened fire on him. He lifted the vehicles from the ground andhurled them out to sea, laughing at the horrified faces of the Space Wolves. They fell back, gathering in frightened packs as they cowered in ruins of their own making.
Of course, shortly after, his Tutelary gained control over his body, and he exploded with the force of an atom bomb. But hey, it was a fun ride while it lasted.
Huh, is that so? I have only read about Ahriman in the fluff he has in the Chaos Marines codex, but I liked what I read, he seemed pretty cool. Will try to read it eventually.
Disassembling the Dreadnought was the part I really liked lol. The part where he turns two Dreadnoughts against one another is pretty manly too, them being by nature two especially heroic and strong-willed Space Marines.
That being said, while certainly above the majority of Jedi and Sith, with it perhaps being on par or superior to Force Unleashed (I am under the assumption that the explosion you described was caused by his psychic power, right? If so, that would be more impressive than Galen's own little psychic suicide explosion), but it does not quite stack up to Force behemoths like Darth Nihilus, who can eat all the life on a planet with but word (And destroy much of the surface too), though Nihilus is like, top three in terms of power over the Force, along with Sidious and Luke. Who manipulates black holes telekinetically or some stupid crap like that. I hate EU sometimes...
But thanks for the info, have actually been curious about psyker abilities for a while.
He lost his grip on the flow of power from the Warp, until it overloaded and went kaboom. It wasn't all him, as he had the tutelary assisting him (and later devouring him).
As for Darth Nihilus, he had kind of moved beyond any semblance of mortality. At that point, we should be comparing "him" to daemon princes, who warp all reality around them to suit their f'ed up imagination. In the Eisenhorne novels, psykers do some outrageous things, especially the daemonhost. Luke didn't manipulate an actual black hole (that would mean he could re-arrange planets and suns without breaking a sweat, and getting to Sinkhole Station/The Maw wouldn't have been so difficult for him), but rather the micro-black hole-esque gravitational effects created by dovin basals. But yes, he has Mary Sue power-levels to put Draigo to shame.
Darth Sidious' most impressive power display that I'm aware of (beyond his prodigious powers of clairvoyance) was summoning a force storm that swallowed up some ships and being essentially immortal as long as there was a suitable Force-sensitive body to possess (both occurring in the really old Dark Empire comic books). He's also pretty terrible at holding down a job:
I would be tempted to add Darth Bane to the list of the most powerful Force-users, but the OP stated the contest was Astartes vs. Jedi. Sith have quite a few offensive Force techniques, but the Jedi not so much, since that leads to the Dark Side (again, except for Mary Sue Luke who can force choke people with impunity even in the movies).
Omegus wrote:He lost his grip on the flow of power from the Warp, until it overloaded and went kaboom. It wasn't all him, as he had the tutelary assisting him (and later devouring him).
As for Darth Nihilus, he had kind of moved beyond any semblance of mortality. At that point, we should be comparing "him" to daemon princes, who warp all reality around them to suit their f'ed up imagination. Darth Sidious' most impressive power display that I'm aware of (beyond his prodigious powers of clairvoyance) was summoning a force storm that swallowed up some ships and being essentially immortal as long as there was a suitable Force-sensitive body to possess (both occurring in the really old Dark Empire comic books). Luke didn't manipulate an actual black hole (that would mean he could re-arrange planets and suns without breaking a sweat, and getting to Sinkhole Station/The Maw wouldn't have been so difficult for him), but rather the micro-black hole-esque gravitational effects created by dovin basals. But yes, he has Mary Sue power-levels to put Draigo to shame.
I would be tempted to add Darth Bane to the list of the most powerful Force-users, but the OP stated the contest was Astartes vs. Jedi. Sith have quite a few offensive Force techniques, but the Jedi not so much, since that leads to the Dark Side (again, except for Mary Sue Luke who can force choke people with impunity even in the movies).
That is certainly true, Darth Nihilus is essentially the Star Wars equivelant of a Daemon Prince, maybe a Lord of Change too. He is so far above the vast majority of Sith and Jedi that it's ridiculous. Sidious lifted some starship as well, IIRC it was 2.2 kilometers long, he also drained the planet of Byss of its life. Though it was not as powerful as Darth Nihilus' drain, being gradual and over time. You may be right about Luke, admittedly much of what I heard of him is hearsay. Hey now, is Luke really quite Draigo level bad? Draigo made it to the Impossible City. He then destroyed it. What a douche. Also, burned down the Garden of Nurgle. However that works. Dude is a cartoon character.
Darth Bane's most impressive feat is the Mind Bomb right? Which IIRC involved a lot of prep, though I may be mistaken. But yeah, Jedi are not quite so offensively-oriented with a few exceptions, like Mace Windu, who has used Force Crush, and is someone that is dangerously close to the Dark Side at times, which is why he created Vapaad, and Luke as you said, who can use what is basically Force Lightning while being perfectly fething cool.
But yeah, back to the topic at hand, I don't really think the average Jedi can take the average Marine, personally.
When Darth Bane was 'roided-up from the orbalisks, he was throwing out lightning and telekinesis on a pretty massive scale. His apprentice was able to summon tendrils of energy that disintegrated everything they touched.
Byss was utterly enveloped by the Dark Side and the inhabitants' life force was drained very slowly through various Sith machines (which were as much sorcery as they were technology... think Skaven-tech without the comical misfiring). The Old Sith in general had quite a few monumental techniques, such as perfectly orchestrating an entire army/fleet through a meditation sphere. Many of these techniques were gathered by Bane and inherited by his successors (who added to the collection, particularly in the case of Sidious, who started collecting not only artifacts, but Force sensitives he didn't intend to apprentice, such as the Prophets and his agents [see Mara Jade]).
But yeah, you're right, nothing is as bad as Draigo. They really should have just let Ward bring back Guilliman instead.
On topic, I think I would agree with the second or third post in this thread. An average Jedi would have little problems with a single Astartes, but a squad concentrating fire on him would probably kill him after he took down 2 or 3 of their number. I'd even give the Jedi an edge against a Librarian (as long as the Jedi is one of the better Masters and the Librarian is strictly average/non-GK).
Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut
Jedi are not stupid (well, the strong ones anyways), they could use the force to sense that a SM is going to kill them and then
a) run
b) some sort of pre emptive strike
Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut
Riddick40k wrote:Well since plenty of Jedi died like punks at the end of attack of the clones from droids I'm sure it would be easy for a marine to just walk up to a Jedi while said Jedi is tryin to give a convincing speech about how fighting is not the answer and bust a bolt pistol shot in his gut
Jedi are not stupid (well, the strong ones anyways), they could use the force to sense that a SM is going to kill them and then
a) run
b) some sort of pre emptive strike
The reason the Jedi didn't sense the Clone backstabbing was because of the psychological indoctrination the clones were subjected too.
Only Yoda actually sensed the attack. Obi-wan survived because that particular clone was a lousy shot.
Space Marines undergo even more psycho-indoctrination then a Clone does so the Jedi would have a similer problem. this does assume first contact.
only an extremely powerful Jedi could Force Accelerate while pulling the pins on a squads worth of grenades. it takes alot of concentration to do this and the grenades might have a fail safe so they don't do exactly this when on a marines body.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:A single jedi at the height of his/her power could wipe out a codex chapter. Nuff said.
Yeah not now mate.A bunch of cloned soldiers basically wiped all the goodie two shoes jedi out.Those soldiers were no where near as tough as a space marine.
Ok, so there are a few things that should be clarified before we continue this debate.
Force powers:
force pull: force powers only work when the jedi know what to manipulate. For example, pulling the pin on the grenade if the Jedi can mentally "see" the pin and the grenade it would work, however if they don't know what to manipulate, pulling the pin won't work as they could quite potentially pull the grenade and the pin towards themselves. That probably wouldn't work.
Force push: unless we are talking about a master, most Jedi can't force push much more than a few hundred pounds. Something normally man-sized and just as slow. The average Jedi couldn't turn a rocket in mid flight, let alone a bolter shell flying at machine gun speeds (think somewhere around 2300-3000 foot per second).
Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.
Force lightning: this is a sith power but for the sake of argument we,ll discuss it. Force lightning normally targets one person and requires the most intense concentration to use otherwise it may backfire and consume the user (like what happened to sidious when mace was able to weaken him). Additionally, the user must have two organic hands that aren't injured, and normally requires a few seconds to prepare before lightning starts flying around (hence the build up between doku and yoda).
Force choke: very hard and difficult to use, and requires an insane amount of concentration. Even vader himself could barely manage to choke someone and talk at the same time.
Mind control: mind control only works on the weak minded. Sure, it would probably work on guardsmen, but space marines are trained and psychologically indoctrinated to withstand temptation of the warp and the daemon, they would more than likely be able to handle a mind trick.
Any other force power: all force powers are draining to the Jedi and will wear them out during a fight. If force powers were that awesome, Jedi would never have a need for light sabers. There are limitations to the skills of the average Jedi.
Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.
I agree with the assessment that a ten man squad of marines could handle you average Jedi, as clone troopers just clearly mowed down Jedi masters quite easily (of course you say, the clone troopers have the element of surprise, but that is just a better example of how fragile Jedi actually can be)
Sure they could be quick and those light sabers are deadly, but they need to close, and while plasma guns probably wont do much, explosive shells from blotters would chew them up pretty seriously, as the jedi principlar line of defense is deflection, which is a great idea so long as the shells don't explode on impact or the physical bolt doesn't splinter into shrapnel.
One average Jedi to a tactical squad is probably pretty accurate.
They have superior reflexes, dexterity and strength over SM without all the suped up bodies and extra organs. A truly powerful Jedi doesn't even have to block bolter fire, it wouldn't even come in his/her direction. A jedi doesn't need armour because he's too busy moving quicker than the marines advanced ocular cells can follow.
Fanboy Jedi's, that's those not in the films as that was largely made for kids are immense, Exar Kun could face down a SM chapter for breakfast. Sidious vs Eldrad would be a nice match-up.
Sc077y wrote:Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.
Sc077y wrote:Ok, so there are a few things that should be clarified before we continue this debate.
Force powers:
force pull: force powers only work when the jedi know what to manipulate. For example, pulling the pin on the grenade if the Jedi can mentally "see" the pin and the grenade it would work, however if they don't know what to manipulate, pulling the pin won't work as they could quite potentially pull the grenade and the pin towards themselves. That probably wouldn't work.
Force push: unless we are talking about a master, most Jedi can't force push much more than a few hundred pounds. Something normally man-sized and just as slow. The average Jedi couldn't turn a rocket in mid flight, let alone a bolter shell flying at machine gun speeds (think somewhere around 2300-3000 foot per second).
Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.
Force lightning: this is a sith power but for the sake of argument we,ll discuss it. Force lightning normally targets one person and requires the most intense concentration to use otherwise it may backfire and consume the user (like what happened to sidious when mace was able to weaken him). Additionally, the user must have two organic hands that aren't injured, and normally requires a few seconds to prepare before lightning starts flying around (hence the build up between doku and yoda).
Force choke: very hard and difficult to use, and requires an insane amount of concentration. Even vader himself could barely manage to choke someone and talk at the same time.
Mind control: mind control only works on the weak minded. Sure, it would probably work on guardsmen, but space marines are trained and psychologically indoctrinated to withstand temptation of the warp and the daemon, they would more than likely be able to handle a mind trick.
Any other force power: all force powers are draining to the Jedi and will wear them out during a fight. If force powers were that awesome, Jedi would never have a need for light sabers. There are limitations to the skills of the average Jedi.
Point is this: Jedi are VASTLY overrated and mandalorians, the probably closest match to a space marine, had been killing Jedi and sith for centuries until more conventional warfare took over when the old republic declared war on the mandalorians and weight of numbers took them out. Now, there are Jedi of renown, Jason, anakain, and Luke, obi wan, mace, yoda, so on and so forth, but there are also chapter masters and psykers of renown as well.
I agree with the assessment that a ten man squad of marines could handle you average Jedi, as clone troopers just clearly mowed down Jedi masters quite easily (of course you say, the clone troopers have the element of surprise, but that is just a better example of how fragile Jedi actually can be)
Sure they could be quick and those light sabers are deadly, but they need to close, and while plasma guns probably wont do much, explosive shells from blotters would chew them up pretty seriously, as the jedi principlar line of defense is deflection, which is a great idea so long as the shells don't explode on impact or the physical bolt doesn't splinter into shrapnel.
One average Jedi to a tactical squad is probably pretty accurate.
Nicely put and makes very much sense. And I agree with all that.
Conservation of the Force! An army of Jedi can be easily beaten. A lone Jedi is death incarnate.
Jedi could make the pods crash against each other as they land. They could keep the doors shut and slowly crush them into the Marines inside. also, Jedi are a lot faster and agile. The laser swords are basically power weapons, so they're paired by the power swords and fists, but Jedi can deflect lasers and are far more skilled than marines in swordfighting. Librarians would be the equivalent of an Elite Jedi, while a Character-level librarian would be the equivalent of a Jedi Master. All jedi use the Force and they're not vulnerable to the perils of the warp. They can shoot lightning and stuff.They can force-choke marines in full terminator armor. They can make their bodies explode from the inside. Still, marimes have tanks. And lots of firepower. It really depends on the situation.
Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.
Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.
Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.
Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
... all that aside, we still haven't established a force comparison between the Jedi vs the Space Marines, whether it's a single Kill-team vs a single Jedi, or a Company vs the Entire Jedi Order or what.
So, again, I'll repeat my previous statement: There's too many variables in this battle to outright declare an easy victor.
One Jedi vs a entire Squad? Yeah, dead Jedi, 2 or 3 SM killed, possibly, depending on specifics of the battle. Team of Jedi with complementary powers vs a Squad? Bunch of dead Marines.
Jedi Master of Legend vs SM squad? The SM will never see the Jedi who kills them or, if they do, it will be the very last thing they see.
Entire Chapter vs a few Jedi? Um, yeah. Chapter, hands down.
Just saying that, as cross-over battles go, I think SM vs Jedi are two factions that, with their respective skills/abilities/etc are the most closely matched, so much so that, apart from out-of-balance numbers to one side or the other, there's no clear winner at the outset.
As I said, it depends of the situation. I think the defender would have the big advantage, if we're taalking about some sort of masive assault on a planet or so.
Draigo's Mary Sue powers win. I mean, what he has accomplished is ludicrous even by 40K standards. No, that's not right, it's ludicrous by 40K^DBZ standards. No matter what outrageous example of Jedi/Sith powers we can think of, Matt Ward will just go, "Nuh uh, Draigo gots super wizard armor on and just deflects it all."
Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.
Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.
Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.
Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
... all that aside, we still haven't established a force comparison between the Jedi vs the Space Marines, whether it's a single Kill-team vs a single Jedi, or a Company vs the Entire Jedi Order or what.
So, again, I'll repeat my previous statement: There's too many variables in this battle to outright declare an easy victor.
One Jedi vs a entire Squad? Yeah, dead Jedi, 2 or 3 SM killed, possibly, depending on specifics of the battle. Team of Jedi with complementary powers vs a Squad? Bunch of dead Marines.
Jedi Master of Legend vs SM squad? The SM will never see the Jedi who kills them or, if they do, it will be the very last thing they see.
Entire Chapter vs a few Jedi? Um, yeah. Chapter, hands down.
Just saying that, as cross-over battles go, I think SM vs Jedi are two factions that, with their respective skills/abilities/etc are the most closely matched, so much so that, apart from out-of-balance numbers to one side or the other, there's no clear winner at the outset.
while it is true that a squad of jedi could take out a squad of marines there is a problem with that.
Jedi are even rarer then Space Marines are, so the Jedi will always be outnumbered.
Uh... rare in the "holy trilogy", yes, as they'd been hunted to extermination but... in other periods of time, like, say, the Clone Wars, there were hundreds to thousands of Jedi.
In the era of the Old Republic, when the Jedi Order was still a militant order, and was *the* fighting force for the Republic, the Jedi numbered in the tens of thousands, perhaps magnitudes more (the fluff is unclear), and fielded entire armies, complete with armor support, naval support, orbital warfare capabilities and all the rest of the bit. Like a combined IG/Imp. Navy military... backed up by the Force.
Following the establishment of the NJO, the Jedi were once again... well, not exactly "common" but definitely far more numerous than they had been in centuries, in part because Skywalker lifted the "maximum age rule" for induction for training.
Psienesis wrote:Uh... rare in the "holy trilogy", yes, as they'd been hunted to extermination but... in other periods of time, like, say, the Clone Wars, there were hundreds to thousands of Jedi.
In the era of the Old Republic, when the Jedi Order was still a militant order, and was *the* fighting force for the Republic, the Jedi numbered in the tens of thousands, perhaps magnitudes more (the fluff is unclear), and fielded entire armies, complete with armor support, naval support, orbital warfare capabilities and all the rest of the bit. Like a combined IG/Imp. Navy military... backed up by the Force.
Following the establishment of the NJO, the Jedi were once again... well, not exactly "common" but definitely far more numerous than they had been in centuries, in part because Skywalker lifted the "maximum age rule" for induction for training.
even if there were 100,000 jedi during the Clone Wars the Marines would still have a 10 to 1 advantage.
there are approximatly 1000 chapters of 1000 marines each(in actuality, a full strength marine chapter has about 1500 marines) so 1,000,000 marines at any one time.
Yes, approximately 1000 chapters, most with 1000 fighting men and about half as many in various stages of recruitment or convalescence. And then there are the chapters that field way more than 1000 Astartes, like the Black Templar and Space Wolves.
Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.
Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.
Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.
Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
.
i pulled my information from the role playing game that a friend of mine assisted writitng several resource books for, then vetted the information against him. If i am wrong, oh well, i dont have an ego about such things, but i'm not entirely certain i am. Ventriss was exceptionally powerful, ill give you that, and there would normally be no way she would be able to get away with that if it didnt make for a great dramatic moment in the cartoon, and even then she couldnt hold them there for long.
the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER. in all the novels, starting with the heir to the empire series and forward he is widely considered the most powerful of all the jedi, and has been confirmed so in many of the novels. he could force choke fifty of them if he wanted to, the same way Librarian Ahirman could suck 100 jedi into the warp or change them into a funky purple goo. they are renowned charectors that are the exception to the rule, not the rule.
also, not sure what other force powers are inaccurate, but let me know and i will seek understanding so i can correct myself.
Psienesis wrote:Unfortunately, most of those descriptions of Force Powers... aren't entirely accurate.
Asajj Ventriss chokes both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time during a melee... yes, the SW wiki says that the power requires concentration, but doesn't cite the source for the claim, or offer examples in support of the claim.
Luke blinks and Force Chokes 2 Gammorean Guards, and just walks past them.
Force Pull: WH40K and SW grenades look all but identical, down to pins/activation stud placement and textured grip-surfaces, the only major variations arising between the melta-bomb (WH40k) and the thermal detonator (SW). There's nothing in 40K that suggests there's any sort of "safety" mechanism on a Space Marine's power armor to prevent the grenade in his pocket from going off if it were activated.
.
i pulled my information from the role playing game that a friend of mine assisted writitng several resource books for, then vetted the information against him. If i am wrong, oh well, i dont have an ego about such things, but i'm not entirely certain i am. Ventriss was exceptionally powerful, ill give you that, and there would normally be no way she would be able to get away with that if it didnt make for a great dramatic moment in the cartoon, and even then she couldnt hold them there for long.
the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER. in all the novels, starting with the heir to the empire series and forward he is widely considered the most powerful of all the jedi, and has been confirmed so in many of the novels. he could force choke fifty of them if he wanted to, the same way Librarian Ahirman could suck 100 jedi into the warp or change them into a funky purple goo. they are renowned charectors that are the exception to the rule, not the rule.
also, not sure what other force powers are inaccurate, but let me know and i will seek understanding so i can correct myself.
you will notice in the movie that Luke didn't choke both of them at the same time. he did one, and then turned to the other.
the closest Yoda came was giving 2 of Palpatine's guards a simultainious Appendectomy when he confronted him.
For some reason I wanna put my cuote of nerdies... jajaja
I don`t now really... but 5 companies of space marines counter jedis??? that`s a lot of space marines charging special weapons, power weapons, power fist... and what with the jedis??? laser sabres and the force???.
I put my money in the marines pocket, seriusly, the jedis are really cool, formidable warriors and all that gak, but you cannot use the force against a space marine, remember, they kill eldars like butter.
This post is for far the most bizzarre that I see ever... jajajaja
the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER.
No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.
He is, yes, the most powerful Jedi in recent memory. He's definitely no slouch when it comes to mastery of the Force. He's definitely greater than Yoda or Obi-Wan... but even throughout the EU novels, he doesn't hold a candle to other, Legendary Masters/Legendary Dark Lords, though he is, himself, a Legendary Master. Incidentally, I use the "Legendary Master" title to refer to all of the particularly renown Jedi/Dark Lords throughout the SWEU.
Rather, he didn't use to be, though Lucas might have come along and handwaved all of that and somehow threw out all of that and made Luke the #1 Jedi Ever.
Let's look at it this way... Luke gets captured by the Ssi-Ruuk and nearly Enteched. Could you imagine this happening to Darth Nihilus?
That said... I really *like* EU Skywalker. Shoot, I like Ep3-6 Skywalker. The character is pretty awesome and, unlike certain other characters in the SW or 40K universe, I think he develops, as a person, in a rather believable way, what with all of the powers he has tempered with the responsibilities placed upon him and so forth... at least in comparison to many other characters in either universe.
Though I get where you are coming from in your descriptions of the powers... they sound perfectly balanced (as such things go) for an RPG setting where no single PC/NPC ability can be utterly, no-save-allowed killy-dred. It's just that the RPG descriptions are not exactly supported by the visual media, which takes precedence in the SW canon.
Though, when it comes down to it, some sources of 40K lore have Space Marines being beaten to death with rocks (just like certain monochromatic soldiers on a certain not-quite-a-Death-World-moon)... so maybe they aren't as cool as people would like to think they are, either.
Nah, it's in... one of the SM omnibus collections, I forget which one, (Ultramarines, maybe?) but some force of heretic cultist foot-sloggers beat a few to death with sticks and rocks.
Probably wouldn't have happened if they remembered to wear a damn helmet...
Psienesis wrote:Nah, it's in... one of the SM omnibus collections, I forget which one, (Ultramarines, maybe?) but some force of heretic cultist foot-sloggers beat a few to death with sticks and rocks.
Probably wouldn't have happened if they remembered to wear a damn helmet...
This is most definitely not in the Ultramarines Omnibus.
Psienesis wrote:No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.
Ah the lies we believe...
Anyway, single marine firing on a single Jedi with a bolter wins.
Not a master, or an exceptionally skilled knight, a random jedi, who are not that impressive. The kind who get killed by a single blaster pistol wielded by a Mandalorian that is not being writte by Traviss.
the comment about luke choking the two gamorrean guards, well, luke is THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI EVER.
No, he isn't. He is powerful, yes... but he doesn't hold a candle to the Jedi or Sith of the "ancient days" of the Old Republic or the Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War eras.
Uh, no. According to Lucas, Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. Period. His father was the Chosen one, whose potential was stunted by being like 75% robot.
The "ancient days" Jedi weren't that powerful, and most of the Sith's potency lay in their alchemy... i.e. various amulets to enhance their offensive powers, giant monsters they created, etc. The techniques were more refined back then, but raw strength? No one has anything on Luke.
Sidious is also described as being the most powerful Sith Lord ever, although it could be argued Orbalisk'd Bane or post-transformation Nihilous had more raw power.
yeah, Luke was simple brute power. this amplified itself in the fact the Jedi of the new republic had many characteristics of the Sith as well as far as powers went.
a Jedi of the Old Republic would never have used force choke, lightining, or drain. but the Jedi of the New Rupublic would be perfectly fine with it(as long as the intentions were pure)
the Techniques were largely lost when the Jedi Order was destroyed.
Who knows how powerful Luke would be if he had access to the teachings of the Old Republic. if he was able to recover all the lost Holocrons or have been given a proper training by Yoda and Obi-wan.
Grey Templar wrote:a Jedi of the Old Republic would never have used force choke, lightining, or drain. but the Jedi of the New Rupublic would be perfectly fine with it(as long as the intentions were pure
This was briefly proposed in the New Jedi Order books as the Jedi adopted some of the lessons Jason learned from Vergere, but after he started acting and dressing up like grandpa, they've pretty much ruled that out now. So no Dark Side techniques for the Jedi.
In regards to Anakin not tapping into his full potential, just wanna say that Sidious theorised that Anakin's stunted growth was not due to being mostly mechanical, but due to his mental state and uncertainty.
Well, considering that now force powers come from midichlorian count (what a god damn stupid concept, Lucas needs to either die or give up creative control to his sons or something), which reside in organic matter, his count was severely reduced by having a huge chunk of his body replaced.
But yes, I was going to mention the mental status issue as well, but I hate being reminded of how they ruined Darth Vader.
Omegus wrote:Well, considering that now force powers come from midichlorian count (what a god damn stupid concept, Lucas needs to either die or give up creative control to his sons or something), which reside in organic matter, his count was severely reduced by having a huge chunk of his body replaced.
But yes, I was going to mention the mental status issue as well, but I hate being reminded of how they ruined Darth Vader.
I am gonna take a risk and say something:
Darth Vader was always a little bitch, it was just not so readily apparent.
That said, agreed on midichlorians, Lucas should be punched in the stomach for that crap. It would be like Gandalf revealing that magic in Lord of the Rings is accomplished via nanomachines. It would be almost exactly like that, actually.
Draigo's Mary Sue powers win. I mean, what he has accomplished is ludicrous even by 40K standards. No, that's not right, it's ludicrous by 40K^DBZ standards. No matter what outrageous example of Jedi/Sith powers we can think of, Matt Ward will just go, "Nuh uh, Draigo gots super wizard armor on and just deflects it all."
QFT I have never heard such a ridicilious statement but i agree with that XD
Hey, I am sure John Voight has a perfectly lovely ballsack.
Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.
Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.
Hey, I am sure John Voight has a perfectly lovely ballsack.
Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.
Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.
Yoda and Sidious were the best of all the characters in StarWars
Use of Light Side/Dark Side powers, IRT the Jedi Order, varies by era. The Jedi Order oscillates on many of its other points, as well, ranging from ultra-conservative through moderate views to extremely liberal. The NJO of Skywalker's design allows the Jedi some of the most freedoms they've been allowed in thousands of years. Luke noticed that it was the restrictive nature of the previous Order that caused so many people to fall to the Dark Side.
Anakin was, indeed, "The Chosen One". He was chosen, by the Force, to "bring balance to the Force", which is the prophesy quoted in the prequel films. How in the feth the Jedi Order missed the extremely *obvious* meaning of this prophesy is beyond me...
Anakin does this very, very well.
In the beginning of Ep1, we have hundreds, if not thousands, of "Light Side" Jedi, and all of 3 Sith: a Master (Palpatine), a sort-of Master (Dooku), and an Apprentice (Maul).
Then Darth Maul gets cut in half, leaving 2 Sith Lords (Palpatine and Dooku).
Then Dooku gets decapitated, leaving 1 Dark Lord (Palpatine) and a sorta-kinda apprentice (Skywalker).
Then the sorta-kinda apprentice becomes full-on Sith apprentice, creating 2 Sith and lots and lots of Light Side Jedi, minus 1.
Then the 2 Sith go on to kick ass and take names... in the end, we have 2 Sith (Palpatine and Vader) and 2 Light Side Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi). The Force has been brought to balance, the prophesy fulfilled.
This is all Anakin was ever prophesied to do and be, and he was the Force-User built to do it. He was not made to be the "most powerful Force-User ever", nor was Luke... though Luke *does* complete the prophesy by taking his walk on the Dark Side, since he is the only living Jedi, having killed/caused to be killed both Vader and Palpatine, and Yoda and Kenobi both now dead, and becoming, in the end, neither Light nor Dark, but rather, to an extent, a Master of both (which does make him, in this balance, the most powerful Jedi ever... from a certain point of view).
Who knows how powerful Luke would be if he had access to the teachings of the Old Republic. if he was able to recover all the lost Holocrons or have been given a proper training by Yoda and Obi-wan.
Indeed, but we will never know, because that didn't happen, for the most part. Sure, later in the EU, some holocrons were recovered and studied and so on... but not all of them, and those that were recovered were, iirc, fragmentary, at best.
I would just like to point out that Jedi are not any more effective when in numbers, or at least not as much as space marines. Jedi are not exactly designed to fight in units. Take the assault on the Jedi Temple by the 501sts for example. Obviously a couple troopers are no match for the jedi, but even though the 501sts probably only outnumbered the Jedi maybe 3-1, they are stronger in numbers.
Also remember that boltguns cannot be deflected, and most Jedi are very weak with the force. If anything Bolt rounds would explode on contact with a lightsaber.
Not to mention a single chapter of space marines would bomb the gak out of the Jedi Temple no worries.
he just said Luke was the most powerful Jedi ever.
by becoming a Master of both, he brought the power of both the light and dark side together in one individual.
I also was able to catch how Anakin was indeed the chosen one.
He culled the Jedi's ranks along with Sidious.
then, later, he killed Sidious and also died himself.
this left Luke to master both Light and Dark and bring ultimate balance in one master.
it was the will of the Force to have Anakin create balance by essentially self destructing the Jedi and Sith from within, so they could return to their roots as a single entity. as originally, both Light and Dark jedi were members of the order and it flourished. it was when the order started to decide that the Dark jedi were evil and banished them that things went to hell.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Though, huh. Both Boba and Vader, two characters who were considered badasses by most in the fandom (For the record, I hate Boba Fett, and all Mandalorians), were then shown as little kids with angsty parent crap then they get sad. Lucas is not a particularly versatile writer.
Although, let me say, Sidious and Yoda were more awesome in the PT, IMO.
Yes, Lucas is a terrible, awful writer and a not much better director. That's why the best Star Wars movie (Empire Strikes Back) is the one for which he did the least amount of writing (he had several contributors on all the OT movies, but especially ESB) and did not direct. He pretty much did all the writing and directing for the new trilogy, and we get gems like:
"You are so beautiful."
"It's only because I am in love."
"No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
That, or someone literally dying of a broken heart.
As for Sidious, I quite enjoyed the cackling old man in the OT. In the PT his manipulation of Anakin seemed so hamfisted and obvious (was he just reading from Manipulating Retards for Dummies?, and his "evil guy" voice was more over the top than Christian Bale's "I just chain smoked a whole box of cigarettes and am all pissed off that I'm out of cigarettes" Batman voice in Dark Knight.
Omegus wrote:Yes, Lucas is a terrible, awful writer and a not much better director. That's why the best Star Wars movie (Empire Strikes Back) is the one for which he did the least amount of writing (he had several contributors on all the OT movies, but especially ESB) and did not direct. He pretty much did all the writing and directing for the new trilogy, and we get gems like:
"You are so beautiful."
"It's only because I am in love."
"No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
That, or someone literally dying of a broken heart.
As for Sidious, I quite enjoyed the cackling old man in the OT. In the PT his manipulation of Anakin seemed so hamfisted and obvious (was he just reading from Manipulating Retards for Dummies?, and his "evil guy" voice was more over the top than Christian Bale's "I just chain smoked a whole box of cigarettes and am all pissed off that I'm out of cigarettes" Batman voice in Dark Knight.
Yoda was badass, I'll give you that.
Empire Strikes Back is probably my favorite, yeah. The epic fight at the end was awesome.
Oh dear God please don't talk about the fething dialogue, especially regarding the friggin' "romance."
Holy crap, he needs to get shot for that crap alone.
To be fair, Anakin IS a moron. I won't lie, the "manipulation" was not handled well, that George Lucas writing and all... But I loved his hammy performance, and the overexagerrated nature of his fights.
Pft, you can't not think Yoda is badass.
Oh, and Count Dooku, but... Really, even when playing a total loser, like he did Saruman, Christopher Lee is incapable of NOT playing a badass, everything he does reeks badassery. Playing the fething dad in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was badass. He could play ANYTHING and still be badass.
Void__Dragon wrote:So in other words, you don't actually have any proof that the old Jedi/Sith were stronger beyond "I said so"?
Luke was confirmed to be the strongest, only Sidious or Nihilus can contest that claim.
Everyone else is so far below them to be laughable.
Uh... neither Sidious nor Nihilus are Jedi so... we're getting into the (not obvious enough, apparently) Lucas-ism reference I made in my previous post. "From a certain point of view" Luke may be the most powerful Jedi to ever live... but, trouble is, it's never demonstrated to be fact in anything in the EU. Or in the films, for that matter. There's also the fact that Lucas now views the entire film series as "movies for kids" and doesn't give it much thought... I would like to see the reference where Lucas states that Luke is the "most powerful Jedi ever", mainly because my Google-Fu seems to be failing me on finding it.
There's also several quotes throughout the EU that explain that the users of the Force, both Jedi and Sith, have been growing weaker as time goes on. One in particular sticks in my mind, from KOTOR2, where Kreia explains (to the Jedi Exile) that the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith, like those buried in the Valley of the Jedi, were more powerful than the Exile, or even Revan, could ever dream to be... and this is nearly 4,000 years before the Clone Wars.
I would just like to point out that Jedi are not any more effective when in numbers, or at least not as much as space marines. Jedi are not exactly designed to fight in units. Take the assault on the Jedi Temple by the 501sts for example. Obviously a couple troopers are no match for the jedi, but even though the 501sts probably only outnumbered the Jedi maybe 3-1, they are stronger in numbers.
Depends on the era, actually. Before becoming a religious order, the Jedi were, primarily, a military order, though this definitively ended with the Ruusan Reformation. And, yeah, they are more capable in pairs or teams... this is why the Order often sent them in groups, if they were available to send. It's basic logistics... if one thing works pretty well, but works better with this other thing, which works better with this other other thing, and we have this fourth thing that can keep them all working at their best efficiency, then it's best to send them all together. In terms of 40K psykers, a telekine is pretty awesome, and better with a pyrokine on hand, who works even better with a telepath/diviner available to hide their approach, and a biomancer can keep them all alive and able to survive in a vacuum and walk through fire and turn their bodies into living stone to shrug off bolter fire.
I'd also point out that, at the time of Anakin's attack on the Temple, most of the Jedi Masters weren't there, just some Knights, the support staff, a few Padawans and the Younglings... not really a challenge to the 501st lead by Darth Vader.
And tzeentch sits back and laughs as his plans for turning the starwars and space marine fanboys against eachother
Eh, I'm a fan of all three (Space Marines, Star Wars and Tzeentch, specifically) and I'm not here saying that Jedi are totally all-powerful and would instantly destroy Space Marines or anything of the sort... I'm just saying that I think Space Marines might not find the Jedi to be an easy target to kill, but it all very much depends on the specifics of the battlefield, numbers available, and other such tactical considerations.
In an open arena with a single, average Jedi on one side and a fully-armed and armored Space Marine on the other... yeah, that Jedi is going to need a *lot* of unique gifts as Force Powers and a boatload of luck to kill the Marine... but a Jedi with the stealth and speed of, say, a Harlequin? Might do it.
Edited for spelling errors (it's July 4th, I have some degree of PTSD, and people are blowing things up outside.... yeah, I'm drinking heavily) and to add, IRT Miss Portman and her performance as Padme Amidala.
Loved her in Ep1. Though young (what planet elects a 14 year old as queen??!!), she portrayed the character as hyper-intelligent, extremely politically savvy, very wise-beyond-her-years and, basically, a perfect fit for the role. In Ep2 and 3.... the writing failed the character horribly, and basically made her a moron.
Also, she didn't die of a broken heart... this has since been ret-conned into having been Force Choked by Anakin when he accused her of having an affair with Obi-Wan and bringing him to Mustafar to kill him.
A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.
The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.
So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.
So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.
He moves at great speed and can sense when the guns are going to be fired, he moves to a location where he will not be hit by the shells then senses where the grenade pins are and makes the Krak grenades explode on their hip.
A jedi's superior senses would let him prevail.
Sc077y wrote:Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.
The jedi could just hold his lightsabers out and super speed past all the space marines, there goes the tac squad with nothing but the jedi and his use of force speed.
FYI Jedi also have force illusion powers. So the force is a powerful ally indeed.
A jedi can move at great speed, so as soon as the shooting starts the jedi would no longer be in that location.
The marines carry grenades, the jedi pulls all those pins on those grenades and the entire tac squad goes boom.
So to recap, Lightning speed, Force powers to pull the pin on all the SM Krak grenades, and the SM's all die.
So he's going to dodge 10 bolters on rapid fire while pulling the pins on the grenades Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.
He moves at great speed and can sense when the guns are going to be fired, he moves to a location where he will not be hit by the shells then senses where the grenade pins are and makes the Krak grenades explode on their hip.
A jedi's superior senses would let him prevail.
Sc077y wrote:Force mobility: force speed and force jump are equally impressive but have distinct drawbacks: force mobility can over stress the jedi's body leaving him weak and worn out. If the stress on the body isn't bad enough, the power takes extreme focus and concentration, normally preventing the user from doing everything else.
The jedi could just hold his lightsabers out and super speed past all the space marines, there goes the tac squad with nothing but the jedi and his use of force speed.
FYI Jedi also have force illusion powers. So the force is a powerful ally indeed.
it is the rare Jedi that can do all of those things in quick succession. it would be rather draining. a jedi risks hurting himself by attempting something beyond his ability.
and Marines have just as good reflexs as a Jedi using Force Speed. the Marine has it naturally, the Jedi needs to use his limited abilities to alter the abilities of his body.
the basic Eldar's reaction speed is described as being almost too fast for the human eye to follow.
Space marines are just as fast as an Eldar is naturally(training can make an eldar faster)
so a Space Marine must have equal speed to a Jedi using Force Speed, unless the Jedi is sufficiently powerful to move faster or do multiple things at once.
A question I have, since some have viewed their opinions saying one Jedi can take on chapters of space marines and that they could send thousands of Jedi destroy anything they wanted then why did they need to Clones to fight their battles when the enemy they were facing were mere droids who dont even come close to the feigning prowess of a space marine, let alone a neophyte?
Riddick40k wrote:A question I have, since some have viewed their opinions saying one Jedi can take on chapters of space marines and that they could send thousands of Jedi destroy anything they wanted then why did they need to Clones to fight their battles when the enemy they were facing were mere droids who dont even come close to the feigning prowess of a space marine, let alone a neophyte?
While each Jedi is equal to a thousand droids, there are trillions of droids spread out in armies of millions around the enite galaxy. Sure all the Jedi together could curb stomp opne army of droids, but while they're doing that all the other armies are advancing unopposed.
Not to mention, a Jedi destroys a thousand, ten thousand droids...the Separtists can build more cheaply and quickly. Those ten thousand droids kill ONE Jedi? Well, how hard is it going to be to train a new Jedi to replace him?
Quite simply, the droids outnumber the Jedi so much that no matter how good each Jedi is, the droids will win through sheer overwhelming numbers. The Republic needed more man power than the Jedi can provide. They need people to man the ships that make sure the Separtists don't just blast the Jedi from orbit. They need people to hold the line in the places where the Jedi simply can't be in the numbers needed to halt a droid army. This is what the clones provided.
Grey Templar wrote:My favorite scene for bad writing, and even WORSE acting, was when Anakin swears fealty to Sidious.
he goes from "what have I done???" to "I will do ANYTHING you command" in less then 5 seconds.
Oh yeah, I loved that crap. Went from wanting to be a great Jedi hero that saves the Republic, to slaughtering children (oh, I'm sorry, I meant younglings to take away the emotional impact... as if anything in this shitheap has anything remotely approaching emotional impact) in literally 2 or 3 minutes of screen time.
Really, if you think about it, Anakin/Vader is probably the biggest tool in the history of ...well, anything.
"I want to be a podracer pilot!"
"Podracing is stupid, you should totally be a Jedi."
"Okay!"
"Jedi are a bunch of queers, you should totally be a Sith."
"Hells yeah!"
"Stop being such a dick, you should totally kill the Emperor."
"Sure thing!"
"Now hurry up and die already so we can digitally replace your ghost with Hayden Christensen."
Wheeze. Cough. "Blegh--*"
And another ridiculous thing is how they built up his mother to be this great tragedy in his life. Really? Like he couldn't ask Amidala or his buddy Uncle Palpatine for a loan to go buy her freedom? Nah, he just abandons her for the better part of a decade to be a slave to some flying Jewish anteater (man, that gak was so racist), only finally deciding to go back after she gets gangbanged to death by sand people. And then he whines for the rest of the trilogy about how he wasn't strong enough to protect her. Uh, newsflash buddy, you were strong enough, you just forgot because you were busy sticking it to Natalie Portman.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote:There's also several quotes throughout the EU that explain that the users of the Force, both Jedi and Sith, have been growing weaker as time goes on. One in particular sticks in my mind, from KOTOR2, where Kreia explains (to the Jedi Exile) that the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith, like those buried in the Valley of the Jedi, were more powerful than the Exile, or even Revan, could ever dream to be... and this is nearly 4,000 years before the Clone Wars.
That's crap coming from someone whose Sith name meant betrayal, who also spent the entire game lying to the protagonist and wanted to destroy the Force entirely.
Having read and/or played most of the EU (pretty much everything except the Young Jedi Knights stuff), from the Golden Age of the Sith, through KOTOR, through the Rebel Alliance and New Republic Eras, and even the most recent stuff set a century or so after Luke's death, there is no real demonstrable difference in power levels of the various force users of those times. The biggest stand-outs in terms of ridiculous overt power are Nihilous, Bane and Sidious on the Sith side, and pretty much just the Skywalkers on the Jedi side... which makes sense when you consider the first force-user of the Skywalker line is the Star Wars equivalent of Jesus. The only real differences stem from the techniques available.
And while many of the holocrons are destroyed by Luke's time, the New Jedi Order has recovered several holocrons with a slew of information (including such gems as the Tedryn Holocron and the Holocrons of Asli Krimsan and Arca Jeth... containing knowledege of some of the most legendary Jedi of the KOTOR era and before), and Luke and Jacen also spent like a decade travelling around to various Force cults and sects, gathering all sorts of esoteric abilities. I don't remember any of the ancient Dark Lords travelling through fething time. Luke is the most powerful Jedi both in terms of raw power (his dad is the FORCE JESUS) AND technique (he combined the teachings of Sidious, who had a library gathered over thousands of years starting from Bane; the ancient Jedi Order from the holocrons; the Republic's Jedi Order from Yoda; and the various teachings of non-Sith/Jedi Force cults).
Seriously, people... I'm such a big Star Wars nerd, I make myself sick. Luke is so ridiculously powerful, his Mary Sue levels fall somewhere between Son Goku and Kaldor Draigo.
Grey Templar wrote:My favorite scene for bad writing, and even WORSE acting, was when Anakin swears fealty to Sidious.
he goes from "what have I done???" to "I will do ANYTHING you command" in less then 5 seconds.
Oh yeah, I loved that crap. Went from wanting to be a great Jedi hero that saves the Republic, to slaughtering children (oh, I'm sorry, I meant younglings to take away the emotional impact... as if anything in this shitheap has anything remotely approaching emotional impact) in literally 2 or 3 minutes of screen time.
Really, if you think about it, Anakin/Vader is probably the biggest tool in the history of ...well, anything.
"I want to be a podracer pilot!"
"Podracing is stupid, you should totally be a Jedi."
"Okay!"
"Jedi are a bunch of queers, you should totally be a Sith."
"Hells yeah!"
"Stop being such a dick, you should totally kill the Emperor."
"Sure thing!"
"Now hurry up and die already so we can digitally replace your ghost with Hayden Christensen."
Wheeze. Cough. "Blegh--*"
And another ridiculous thing is how they built up his mother to be this great tragedy in his life. Really? Like he couldn't ask Amidala or his buddy Uncle Palpatine for a loan to go buy her freedom? Nah, he just abandons her for the better part of a decade to be a slave to some flying Jewish anteater (man, that gak was so racist), only finally deciding to go back after she gets gangbanged to death by sand people. And then he whines for the rest of the trilogy about how he wasn't strong enough to protect her. Uh, newsflash buddy, you were strong enough, you just forgot because you were busy sticking it to Natalie Portman.
Just stop, I can't take it! Remembering back to to some of this terrible crap in the PT is just painful. Lucas needs to give up writing forever.
Seriously, people... I'm such a big Star Wars nerd, I make myself sick. Luke is so ridiculously powerful, his Mary Sue levels fall somewhere between Son Goku and Kaldor Draigo.
One thing about pulling pins on the grenades it would take tons of concentration to pull ten at one time, or even five. It's not like the marines would all be standing around letting him concentrate, he would be taking tons of incoming fire. Even if he did manage to pull the pins before being blown away he would be dead in the next second.
iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Since there's only Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee left, watcha gonna do about it?
If you notice in Return of the Dragon when Chuck fights Bruce in the Colosseum Chuck doesn't have his beard yet. The beard gives him power!
But that goes against established fluff, in which Chuck was born with his beard. Return of the Dragon is non-canon. Besides, Chuck didn't have a chance, since the screenplay was written as a collaboration between Ward and Goto.
So about mind battles; marines may not be the sharpest knife the the drawer but they are only beaten by two or three blades for number one. Not exactly weak minded or willed. Even if a Jedi ordered them to shoot their neighbor in the head a bolter on SM armor at point blank range? I think they are supposed to be relatively ineffective on Power armor at close range like that.
Now remember Marines are front line shock troopers jedi are support units. A Jedi is not meant to soak up the fire that a squad of marines could put out and we all know that no jedi blocks every shot sent at him.
A simple squad would have the ability to stand to a mind trick and fill the Jedis body with fine red mist and air. Now we ask can a light saber cut through Ceramite at the hard points, a power sword, and a chain sword.
Psienesis- Actually that isn't what the prophecy meant at all. The dark and light aren't 2 sides of the force like you suggested. The Light is the force and the dark side is a corrupted twisted version. The force used by the jedi is the balanced version of the force. At least that is what the prophecy says.
There's plenty of poorly-concealed racism in the prequel trilogy, but the Light vs Dark sides of the Force are not part of it.
Though, what *is* part of it is Mace Windu getting killed by some skinny-arsed white boy... that gak just would not happen. Mace would beat the piss out of Palpatine and Anakin and then tell Anakin to get up and give him his lightsabre.
Anakin would ask which one was his, and Mace would tell him, as if it were the most obvious thing in the galaxy, that it's the one that has "Badass Motherfether" written on it.
... though, in reality, the prop that Sam Jackson carried as his lightsabre in the films really does have "Badass Motherfu**er" (unedited) stamped on it.
I love how in these debates people usually try to talk about the topic, but every once in a while, someone tries to bring up the Independent characters or super people when it is about the average joe soldier of the army
TechMarine1 wrote:couldn't a librarian just use his psychic hood to cancel a jedi's force abilities? Unfortunately you would need A LOT of librarians.
No, they couldn't. Jedi are not psykers.
We can't make an assumption either way.
by technical definition, Force powers would fall under the definition of psychic powers or, more appropriatly, Magic.
We arn't told the power source behind Force Powers and so they are technically "Magic", but might be of psychic nature(Midiclorients could simply be a channeling mechanisim by which the power for the psychic ability flows)
Psychic Powers(in 40k) channel the power of the warp through individuals who posess a mental and genetic predisposition for doing so.
Side Note: Ironically, we actually have more information on Psychic abilities, their origins, and their source of power then we do for Force Powers(whose knowledge is mostly limited to being enabled by midiclorients and descriptions of different techniques) which is odd because Star Wars goes into more detail in just about every area.
TechMarine1 wrote:couldn't a librarian just use his psychic hood to cancel a jedi's force abilities? Unfortunately you would need A LOT of librarians.
No, they couldn't. Jedi are not psykers.
We can't make an assumption either way.
by technical definition, Force powers would fall under the definition of psychic powers or, more appropriatly, Magic.
We arn't told the power source behind Force Powers and so they are technically "Magic", but might be of psychic nature(Midiclorients could simply be a channeling mechanisim by which the power for the psychic ability flows)
Psychic Powers(in 40k) channel the power of the warp through individuals who posess a mental and genetic predisposition for doing so.
Side Note: Ironically, we actually have more information on Psychic abilities, their origins, and their source of power then we do for Force Powers(whose knowledge is mostly limited to being enabled by midiclorients and descriptions of different techniques) which is odd because Star Wars goes into more detail in just about every area.
Psykers channel the power of the Warp. Force users do not.
Psychic powers in 40k come from the Warp. Force powers do not.
So, a few Jedi and some clone troopers take on a Librarian and a squad of space marines. The fight is close, both sides are dishing it out but not quite taking any losses just yet. Then through the side wall, there is a giant crash, and it explodes. As the dust settles both the Jedi and the marines look to the wall, where there is a now a huge hole. Standing there is Chuck Norris and the Juggernaut, and they team up and whoop everyone.
TechMarine1 wrote:couldn't a librarian just use his psychic hood to cancel a jedi's force abilities? Unfortunately you would need A LOT of librarians.
No, they couldn't. Jedi are not psykers.
We can't make an assumption either way.
by technical definition, Force powers would fall under the definition of psychic powers or, more appropriatly, Magic.
We arn't told the power source behind Force Powers and so they are technically "Magic", but might be of psychic nature(Midiclorients could simply be a channeling mechanisim by which the power for the psychic ability flows)
Psychic Powers(in 40k) channel the power of the warp through individuals who posess a mental and genetic predisposition for doing so.
Side Note: Ironically, we actually have more information on Psychic abilities, their origins, and their source of power then we do for Force Powers(whose knowledge is mostly limited to being enabled by midiclorients and descriptions of different techniques) which is odd because Star Wars goes into more detail in just about every area.
Psykers channel the power of the Warp. Force users do not.
Psychic powers in 40k come from the Warp. Force powers do not.
I think that's pretty clear.
We can't make an assumption either way.
Jedi Powers are very similer in effect to psychic powers in 40k.
we arn't told where the power for Force Abilities comes from in explicit terms.
the Warp is an alternate dimension and as such is adjacent to the Star Wars universe as well as 40k(and every other universe in existance or non-existance)
so, the Force COULD be simply their word for Psychic Powers and abilities and I would hazard that it is quite likely. No solid evidence either way, but it is the most likely theory at this point(as Star Wars is silent as to the origin and power mechinisim of the Force)
Grey Templar wrote:
so, the Force COULD be simply their word for Psychic Powers and abilities and I would hazard that it is quite likely. No solid evidence either way, but it is the most likely theory at this point(as Star Wars is silent as to the origin and power mechinisim of the Force)
No, it's not. We know enough about Force users to know that they're not channeling power from an alternate dimension. They're harnessing a pervasive energy field created by living beings.
No, it's not. We know enough about Force users to know that they're not channeling power from an alternate dimension. They're harnessing a pervasive energy field created by living beings.
And what is the Warp? An alternate dimension where power is created by living beings?
Maybe the midichlorians enable a Jedi to draw from the warp. Who knows? It seems like it's fair to assume they are equivalent. Psychic Hoods can block out the Force, and things like ysalamiri can block out psychic powers.
If the Force is a pervasive energy field created by living things then it's entirely different to the Warp. Sapient creatures did not create it, their emotions shaped its landscape. One is an alternate dimension, the other is an energy field residing in the material universe. Any similarity is simple conjecture.
wouldnt the force then be able to pwn everyone and the people who manipulate the warp pwn everyone, so it would just be everyone dies, and nothing is achieved?
That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.
iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.
So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)
iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.
So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)
Considering that most Jedi<Droideka/Destroyer Droids, yes.>
iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.
So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)
Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.
No, it's not. We know enough about Force users to know that they're not channeling power from an alternate dimension. They're harnessing a pervasive energy field created by living beings.
And what is the Warp? An alternate dimension where power is created by living beings?
Maybe the midichlorians enable a Jedi to draw from the warp. Who knows? It seems like it's fair to assume they are equivalent. Psychic Hoods can block out the Force, and things like ysalamiri can block out psychic powers.
You forgot about the Yuzhan Vong, who come from beyond the outer rim and are anathema to force users (extended universe).
We have to assume that Force Powers are = to Psykers in terms of overall power because we have similer feats accomplished by both sides.
Then we have to go to the quantity comparison.
40k wins. Psykers, although "rare", can be found just about everywhere. They are basically 1/1,000,000 to find, but, in a galaxy with uncounted Trillions of people, they arn't exactly hard to find in their hundreds.
as a result, Psykers are much more common then Jedi and so they have the advantage in numbers.
iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.
A Librarian in the Dark Eldar codex ravaged the skies above Commorragh with a storm that was annihilating the Ravagers and other ships blocking the Forgehammer.
Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...
Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...
Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.
Plot Armor and Plot Devices allow you to do all sorts of things that you otherwise aren't/shouldn't... like cause a huge psychic storm over a who-knows-how-large an area when your name isn't Njarl Stormcaller.
I also seem to remember that, in the same story, the SM free their Strike Cruiser with some extremely well-placed missile launcher shots and are able, just barely, to escape by the skin of their teeth and shake their fists in the air and vow to seek vengeance and return to bring retribution and blah-blah-blah, yakkity shmakkity....
Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...
Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.
Asses kicked.
Funny.
The Marines crushed the Dark Eldar attempts at taking them. And beyond that, were massively outnumbered.
If we are talking Librarian powers from 2nd edition, all the Librarian needs is Vortex. The Psyker summons a freaking singularity that crushes all matter that it touches. It would destroy vehicles upon touching. Only can imagine what would happen if it was used inside a space ship in outer space.
Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...
Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.
Asses kicked.
Funny.
The Marines crushed the Dark Eldar attempts at taking them. And beyond that, were massively outnumbered.
One on one a Marine will crush a Dark Eldar, that's just how they roll. However that doesn't mean that Dark Eldar technology won't kill Marines and destroy their vessels.
Marine versus Jedi? Take away all their fancy equipment and let them settle it like men, with fisticuffs.
iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.
A Librarian in the Dark Eldar codex ravaged the skies above Commorragh with a storm that was annihilating the Ravagers and other ships blocking the Forgehammer.
The average Jedi isn't crap to a Librarian.
Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.
iproxtaco wrote:Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.
I wasn't really trying to refute anything you said, only expand upon the Librarian's relation to a Jedi.
Subtle powers? Like their precog, you mean? Sure. Doesn't really help them that much against Droidekas, but okay.
I think Droidekas are deadly to jedi because of the shield generator and as such are immune to the preferred jedi ranged attack(deflected blaster fire) and not because of any weaponry advantage.
Not a huge fan of Star Wars (well I watched the movies and I enjoyed them). Here's my take:
Jedi Knight
WSBS S T W I A LDSv 6 4 4 4 1 6 3 10 6+..................75pts
Wargear:
Light Sabre: A Light Sabre is a power weapon that always wounds on a D6 result of 4+ unless the result needed would be lower.
Special Rules:
Independent Character
The Force: The force is the Jedi's most potent weapon. Once per turn a Jedi Knight may re-roll one dice to hit, to wound or save.
Sense the Future: All Jedi are trained to sense the next few moments before they actually happen. To represent this all Jedi receive a 3+ invulnerable save against any attacks made against them.
Jedi Mind Tricks: Jedi are renowned for being able to manipulate the minds of lesser men. Once per turn you may choose a single non vehicle model on the board within 12". This model must successfully pass a LD test. If it is failed the target will automatically shoot a single ranged weapon (of the Jedi Knights choosing) at any unit chosen by the Jedi Knight's owner. If the model has no ranged weapon it will charge the closest unit (including it's own if it is part of a unit consisting of more than 1 model). A single round of close combat is immediately fought though there is no consolidation regardless of who wins and if the model survives he will return to normal at the end of the phase.
Lukus83 wrote:Not a huge fan of Star Wars (well I watched the movies and I enjoyed them). Here's my take:
Jedi Knight
WSBS S T W I A LDSv 6 4 4 4 1 6 3 10 6+..................75pts
Wargear:
Light Sabre: A Light Sabre is a power weapon that always wounds on a D6 result of 4+ unless the result needed would be lower.
Special Rules:
Independent Character
The Force: The force is the Jedi's most potent weapon. Once per turn a Jedi Knight may re-roll one dice to hit, to wound or save.
Sense the Future: All Jedi are trained to sense the next few moments before they actually happen. To represent this all Jedi receive a 3+ invulnerable save against any attacks made against them.
Jedi Mind Tricks: Jedi are renowned for being able to manipulate the minds of lesser men. Once per turn you may choose a single non vehicle model on the board within 12". This model must successfully pass a LD test. If it is failed the target will automatically shoot a single ranged weapon (of the Jedi Knights choosing) at any unit chosen by the Jedi Knight's owner. If the model has no ranged weapon it will charge the closest unit (including it's own if it is part of a unit consisting of more than 1 model). A single round of close combat is immediately fought though there is no consolidation regardless of who wins and if the model survives he will return to normal at the end of the phase.
Just for fun.
Force push: enemy unit or individual model must pass a STR test or be pushed back D6 inches, if the STR fails they must also take a pinning test as they are knocked to the ground by the force push.
Force Throw: The Jedi throws random objects at a target unit. Rocks, pieces of terrain, etc are flung at high velocity towards a unit. If the Jedi passes a Psyker test this ability will inflict 2D6STR 4 hits with AP 5 on it's target model/unit.
Force Jump: The Jedi moves as if they had jump packs. This ability is used at the beginning of the jedi's turn.
Saber Toss: The Jedi may toss their light saber 12 inches causing D6STR 8 hits on a single target. This counts as a shooting attack for LOS.
Battle Meditation: The Jedi are great tacticians, before the game starts the Jedi may redeploy D3 units before the game starts. also if a Jedi calls in reserves add a +1 to their roll for the reserves.
force lightning: This ability does 2D6STR 4 hits with no AP but counts as STR 8 AP 1 against robot type models against a unit/model.
Fleet footed: Jedi ignore all difficult terrain and count it as normal, they may also reroll any failed dangerous terrain test, but the second result is kept regardless.
Force Choke: Jedi may target any single model with in 18 inches. The model must immediately pass a toughness test or suffer D3 wounds.
Precognitive: At the beginning of the turn the Jedi can foresee the future and augment any single friendly unit. Only one unit can have this ability at any given time, the augmented unit may reroll saving throws.
Force Speed: The Jedi may hasten them self at the beginning of their turn, to represent this they get one free vanguard moment before their turn starts if they choose to use this ability.
A jedi may cast up to 2 abilities in the shooting phase, and 1 ability at the beginning of that players turn.
WS 6 (good with a sword)
BS 5 (good with a gun)
S 3 (he's only human after all)
T 3 (as above)
W 2 (Librarian standard)
I 6 (but a quick bugger)
A * (see below)
LD 9 (got to leave space for Jedi Heroes there)
Sv - (don't think those robes count as anything in 40K
Fleet, Quicksilver Dodge (see Lelith, Codex Dark Eldar), Move through Cover. * The Perfect Warrior (see GK Brotherhood Champion), Hit & Run
Equipment: Lightsaber (auto-wounds on 4+ max, ignores armour)
WS6: really? Dante, Chapter master of the Blood Angels who has at least 1,000 years of combat experience is WS6. a Jedi, who would be lucky to live to be 100 and certaintly wouldn't see even 1% of the combat, certaintly wouldn't be the equal of a 1,000 year veteran who spent at least 98% of that time in active combat service. WS4 is the correct stat.
BS5: again, really? only the most experience space marines reach this level, and they use guns their entire lives. Jedi use blasters only when they lose their precious Lightsabres, which is rare. if anything, they would be BS3.
iproxtaco wrote:Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.
I wasn't really trying to refute anything you said, only expand upon the Librarian's relation to a Jedi.
Subtle powers? Like their precog, you mean? Sure. Doesn't really help them that much against Droidekas, but okay.
In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.
Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.
Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.
Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)
Grey Templar wrote:Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.
Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)
Wait, what? Clones were not immune to mind-affecting Force powers.
Grey Templar wrote:Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.
Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)
Wait, what? Clones were not immune to mind-affecting Force powers.
no, but they are highly resistant to it and it is nearly impossable to read their intentions.
Hence, why the Clones were able to easily back stab all the jedi. they couldn't sense them.
Space Marines recieve massive amounts of mind conditioning to resist this very thing and so the Mind tricks wouldn't work very well.
I think this could make a great diorama: On a dimly light deck of a space ship/hulk, we'll have a Jedi in robes with his lightsaber drawn facing off against the Grey Knights' Justicar Thawn (who at this point has reached the rank of Grand Admiral) with Rukh/Snikrot laying in wait in the shadows nearby. Instant classic
We need something in there too about a ysalamir on his back to represent the aegis.
Jedi learn at a very accelerated rate. Just look what Luke and Anikan accomplished in such a short time. Obi Wan was young to become a master, and so was Yoda if I recall. I still think in all out war the 40K universe would win over the Star Wars universe though. Jedi aren't demi gods from the warp.
Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.
Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.
Grey Templar wrote:Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.
Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.
I don't know man, I am not totally engulfed in either Star Wars or Warhammer fluff, but I am very familiar with both broadly. I have read several of the star wars books as well. Jedi are definitely not weak warriors, and definitely could hold their own against Space Marines, but I think in the end the Marines would win in all out war. Some Jedi could just crush the marines in their armor with the force before they did anything, while other Jedi would not be able to do that.
Jedi are definitely not weak and they won't just roll over and let the Marines kill them with ease. If little wimpy Eldar can take out Marines so can Jedi.
Grey Templar wrote:Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.
Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.
I don't know man, I am not totally engulfed in either Star Wars or Warhammer fluff, but I am very familiar with both broadly. I have read several of the star wars books as well. Jedi are definitely not weak warriors, and definitely could hold their own against Space Marines, but I think in the end the Marines would win in all out war. Some Jedi could just crush the marines in their armor with the force before they did anything, while other Jedi would not be able to do that.
Jedi are definitely not weak and they won't just roll over and let the Marines kill them with ease. If little wimpy Eldar can take out Marines so can Jedi.
He never said they were weak just had much less combat experience, and are not meant to be soldiers
iproxtaco wrote:In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.
Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.
While there are certainly some wielders of the Force whom could affect the average Marine using mental persuasion or control powers, such as Nihilus or Luke, most could not. All Marines are highly mentally conditioned against such things, the average Jedi is not that strong.
As for Jedi having accelerated learning: Obi-Wan and Yoda are both exceptional Jedi, and the Skywalkers are certainly exceptional, no, they are completely unique, Anakin and Luke being the two most talented Jedi EVER. So, not really an accurate comparison.
iproxtaco wrote:In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.
Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.
While there are certainly some wielders of the Force whom could affect the average Marine using mental persuasion or control powers, such as Nihilus or Luke, most could not. All Marines are highly mentally conditioned against such things, the average Jedi is not that strong.
As for Jedi having accelerated learning: Obi-Wan and Yoda are both exceptional Jedi, and the Skywalkers are certainly exceptional, no, they are completely unique, Anakin and Luke being the two most talented Jedi EVER. So, not really an accurate comparison.
Then add in Revan, Kyp, the dude that made the 3 tier light saber, mace windu, I mean there are tons of Jedi that are very powerful. if you include all from the books and video games. Hell Kyle whats his face from dark force rising all the sudden became force aware in the second game and basically became an uber master by the end of the game, and that in all actuality probably was just in a couple of months time line wise. The sith that died in KOTOR II but kept his rotting corpse alive by his hatred fueled force powers...
There are so many powerful Jedi characters that are in fact trained in the arts of war. They just don't fight wars for 10 thousand years like space marines. Like I said, I think in the end the Space Marines would win, but it would be a close battle with heavy losses on both sides.
Void__Dragon wrote:Then add in Revan, Kyp, the dude that made the 3 tier light saber, mace windu, I mean there are tons of Jedi that are very powerful. if you include all from the books and video games. Hell Kyle whats his face from dark force rising all the sudden became force aware in the second game and basically became an uber master by the end of the game, and that in all actuality probably was just in a couple of months time line wise. The sith that died in KOTOR II but kept his rotting corpse alive by his hatred fueled force powers...
There are so many powerful Jedi characters that are in fact trained in the arts of war. They just don't fight wars for 10 thousand years like space marines. Like I said, I think in the end the Space Marines would win, but it would be a close battle with heavy losses on both sides.
Oh, and this is another flawed premise: We are comparing Space Marines, who have only existed for ten thousand years in 40k, to Jedi/Sith, who have been around for much longer in SW. Why is every era of Jedi/Sith being compared to the current Space Marines? Going by that, let's give them the Primarchs, hell, let's give the Space Marines the God Emperor for comparison. The comparison is flawed.
Every Jedi or Sith you named is to some extent exceptional, beyond the norm.
The average Jedi can be killed by blaster, let alone bolter. And once again, I am not convinced a lightsaber could reliably cut through ceramite.
dajobe wrote:also, if a jedi did try to block a bolter, it would just explode and kill him/her when it hit their lightsaber!!!
Jedi can absorb energy, it would kill some, others would shrug it off.
Oh, and this is another flawed premise: We are comparing Space Marines, who have only existed for ten thousand years in 40k, to Jedi/Sith, who have been around for much longer in SW. Why is every era of Jedi/Sith being compared to the current Space Marines? Going by that, let's give them the Primarchs, hell, let's give the Space Marines the God Emperor for comparison. The comparison is flawed.
Every Jedi or Sith you named is to some extent exceptional, beyond the norm.
The average Jedi can be killed by blaster, let alone bolter. And once again, I am not convinced a lightsaber could reliably cut through ceramite.
I am not a fan boy nor do I really care who can win in a fight between a Jedi and a Space Marine. What I am doing is just basically posting information and trying to keep it balanced. Your comparison about how a clone can kill a Jedi with a blaster does not mean that Space Marines are far superior. Gretchin can kill space marines, I have seen it happen. Hell, I have seen space marines die due to dangerous terrain tests. I have seen wimpy little guardians take out space marines, and none of those things are any more worse than a clone in Star Wars.
I already brought up the fact if we are comparing the entire saga of both sides 40K would easily win because of technology and all the gods of the warp, which are pretty much unkillable. Though if you compare it with say the death star or the sun crusher, in fact the sun crusher could wipe out all of the 40K universe. It is indestructible, and it causes suns to white dwarf wiping out whole systems.
In the books Luke cuts through a space ship with his light saber.
Here goes an old republic trailer showing how Jedi can absorb energy
here is another one displaying what masters can do
Holly Terra this is still going.....
When will Star Wars fans realize that Warhammer 40000 is much more richer and interesting than their "let's have a 3 year war and live 3000 years in peace".
I mean seriously guys. I never saw bigger mix of cultures then in 40k, or the size of battles. Star Wars is also not Grim-Dark as Warhammer 40000 is and it doesn't have the most important thing in all sci-fi = EARTH.
It is still interesting and it is more knows simply because GW didn't want to invest in 40k movies. If not for book sales, video games and the popularity of table top games 40k wouldn't exist today...
And I am still standing wit hmy view: Warhammer 40000>Star Wars>Star Trek>Halo>Starcraft...
In your opinion should be the afterward, people can prefer or despise what they want, no matter how stupid you think their reasons are. That whole "When will Star Wars fans realize" line insufferably arrogant.
Well, a (regular-sized, non-space-marine) guy with armour, a laspistol and some toys can beat a Jedi (even one already with a Sith-kill to his name), whatever tricks they may have. So Space Marines should be able to do likewise.
Zweischneid wrote:Well, a (regular-sized, non-space-marine) guy with armour, a laspistol and some toys can beat a Jedi (even one already with a Sith-kill to his name), whatever tricks they may have. So Space Marines should be able to do likewise.
Man...I need to unsubscribe to this thread.
Jango Fett was a Mandalorian Super Trooper. Super elite, not just some guy. Mandalorians had special training to combat Jedi, because they have had battles with them in the past. That is why they used his DNA as the basis of all the clone soldiers. Also, this analogy is not a good one because in game a gretchin can technically kill a space marine as well as a puny little weak guardian. Seen it happen before.
Crom wrote: I have read several of the star wars books as well.
There's your problem.
The movie Jedis couldn't even hope to scratch the ass of a book Jedi. The non-canon Star Wars turned Jedi into physical gods of magic and might. Movie Jedis got slaughtered almost to a man by regular soldiers.
Star Wars outside the films are about as poor representation of Star Wars as could be made.
Crom wrote: I have read several of the star wars books as well.
There's your problem.
The movie Jedis couldn't even hope to scratch the ass of a book Jedi. The non-canon Star Wars turned Jedi into physical gods of magic and might. Movie Jedis got slaughtered almost to a man by regular soldiers.
Star Wars outside the films are about as poor representation of Star Wars as could be made.
Well I think to make a comparison you need to take all in, from every era, from all the books, video games, magazines, comics, movies, and so forth. Then you can make an accurate comparison. Given that, I have already stated I think that the 40K universe would defeat the star wars universe, but I am arguing the point it would not be an easy win. You also gotta realize, Lucas is a horrible writer, and those that wrote the media outside the films actually wrote better stories. Hell, the video game KOTOR had a better story than all the star wars movies combined. Then you got force unleashed where starkiller literally rips down a star destroyer from low orbit to the ground.
I would put clone soldiers on the same level as elite guardsmen. They are genetically engineered and trained since birth for combat. However, they don't have all the luxuries of the gene seed that a Marine does. It has also been said in my books that trooper armor in SW is not all that great.
Now again, I can also argue that outside of the official GW fluff, the 40K universe is even more powerful and god-like. Just like SW is with third party. I mean the comic series where Luke goes to the dark side is nuts, and when he returns back to the light is exponentially more powerful than before. However, I don't quite think he holds the power of the Emporer before the golden throne.
I can also see Master Jedi wiping out marine chapters, just not all of them. I also see the Sith easily falling to the temptations of the Chaos gods too. That would put a whole new level of issues. A sith with the force and the gifts of chaos....
A Jedi master might be able to do serious damage to a Marine chapter, but he certaintly couldn't wipe one.
Librarians would be a major sticking point. 10 dudes of his level of power, who have NO qualms about killing him, would likely overwhelm him. Yoda excepted, cause, well, he's Yoda!
a Jedi's moral code would be his undoing. they will take prisoners and don't engage in needlesss killing. its all find and dandy in their universe, but when the prisoner you are taking will likely be able to break out of whatever restraining item you place him in and break your neck when your back is turned it isn't a good idea. The marine's mental preparedness would mean the Jedi wouldn't always sense the maliciousness, assuming there was any(ala Episode 3)
but many special weapons marines get on a regular basis would decimate the Jedi. Flamers, melta, shotguns, massed bolterfire and grenades. Bar the shotgun, my 
Sounds pretty ridiculous they are fast, but I never saw a jedi move that fast in any movie especially while concentrating that hard.
