Actually, the only real way to know something is to experience it first hand. Can that be taken to extreme? Yes it can but the fact still remains. I'm definite that getting shot is painful, I'll (Hopefully) never know just HOW damn painful it would be until I feel it for myself. It can be described to me vividly but I'll never know (Once again, hopefully) for myself.
We can give GW business advice all day long, they'll never listen so why even bother?
Is it lonely on your pedestal?
Man, I've never been part of an Internet disagreement before. I can see why my friend spends so much time on Reddit
Celtic Strike wrote:Actually, the only real way to know something is to experience it first hand.
No, it's not. I don't have to shoot myself in the face to know that metal shards entering my body at a high velocity are bad news.
Because I'm not stupid. I, like all but the most unfortunate humans, am gifted with intellectual and logical facilities that allow me to understand something without experiencing it.
Is it lonely? Yes, we know it's painful. I never said it wasn't. My point was, how do we know *How* painful?
Can a man really, really, really know what its like to birth a child? The pain and emotion that comes along with it? No they can't, wouldn't you prefer that they don't talk about it because they're wasting their time? We're wasting our time bitching at GW.
I agree with you Melissia. This is off topic and not constructive.
The fact remains, however, that we are both going to keep playing sisters aren't we?
ShumaGorath wrote:This entire argument is idiotic, 30-40 point increase in your full 2000 point army for the grenades and 6+ saves is a wash. You roll three sixes in the entire game and you made those points back.
Unless you make those 3 six saves at the wrong time when you want something to break.
But ifi ts idiotic, why are you participating in it?
carmachu wrote: Unless you make those 3 six saves at the wrong time when you want something to break. But ifi ts idiotic, why are you participating in it?
Yes, but imagine how much your opponent will want to break something if you make them at the *Right* time? That's why I play this game, for crazy gak to happen like that.
Celtic Strike wrote:For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.
Tactical Marines gain +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and a free heavy/special weapon for merely four points more than Sisters-- oh, and their frags and bolt pistols are actually useful to them, unlike Sisters. Tactical Marines must be overpowered/underpriced.
Pure points analysis without context is completely and utterly worthless, and always has been.
Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.
IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.
This is the first time I've participated in a debate online. lol. I didn't know. Why didn't you warn me?
IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.
Not every thread I participate in has drama. But there's a lot of trolls on Dakka, and I admittedly feed them (or simply fall prey to their tricks) far too often.
That discussion earlier had nothing to do with Sisters. It was a philosophical thing. As a student in general and a self-professed scholar (in that I love collecting knowledge in the various sciences and other scholarly pursuits) I LOATHE the inane and intellectually lame mindset of "I don't know anything until I've experienced it".
IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.
This is the first time I've participated in a debate online. lol. I didn't know. Why didn't you warn me?
Because it's entertaining at times, though generally she has the right idea anyway?
I play SoB and have an empty ignore list, nice blanket statement.
And then the Sisters and Tau die in assault whiel the Grey Hunters slaughter via Counter Attack. Sisters being SLIGHTLY (~3.5%) stronger than Grey Hunters in shooting does not make up for their weakness everywhere else.
Celtic Strike wrote:For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.
Tactical Marines gain +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and a free heavy/special weapon for merely four points more than Sisters-- oh, and their frags and bolt pistols are actually useful to them, unlike Sisters. Tactical Marines must be overpowered/underpriced.
Pure points analysis without context is completely and utterly worthless, and always has been.
You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something. Yep, assaulting with 9 tacs. 18-9-4.5-1.5 So im paying 10 points so that I can kill another tac marine on the charge before they kill .75 of mine. So useful. I'd rather pay less and get to have two special weapons instead of having to pay for a heavy and special conjoined at the hip to make the worst squad possible. If sisters were in the marine codex You would never see a tactical marine. Hell, you see the bare minimum of them as it is. They're one of the worst basic troops in the game while the sister, by virtue of relatively low points cost and having an actual battlefield role is good.
ShumaGorath wrote:You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something.
Being able to attack many non-MEQ armies in melee before they attack back is an advantage that cannot be denied, and gaining the charge bonus while attacking at the same time as MEQ armies is quite valuable if you're attacking a shooty army. Sisters with frags don't really gain much of an advantage, as Orks and Necrons have higher WS and T, and Tau aren't going to put up much of a fight anyway.
Melissia wrote:
I stopped playing Sisters sometime in Dec of last year. I stopped buying Sisters a year before that.
The army was old, stale, overpriced, and underpowered. Now it's new, stale, even MORE overpriecd, and even more underpowered.
All this complaining Melissia and you don't even play them? Not only that I like the fact that you bought them, and played them even though they're just horrible all the way around, can you be anymore depressing?
They were my second army, I bought them during 5th, and have proudly played them the whole time. Although I don't like most of the new dex, I'm not going to complain about what's wrong, and instead try and work with what's right. Point is I've been playing them and have been buying them, a lot of them. I've got over 4k points worth invested so instead of throwing my hands up and complaining for page after page in a thread, I'm going to see what I can do to get my army up to snuff, and start working with what I've got. I suggest probably a little less doomsday rabble and a little more positive thinking will probably do you a bit of good.
ShumaGorath wrote:You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something.
Being able to attack many non-MEQ armies in melee before they attack back is an advantage that cannot be denied, and gaining the charge bonus while attacking at the same time as MEQ armies is quite valuable if you're attacking a shooty army.
No, it's not quite valuable. It translates into killing .75 more marines then you would have if you went second. Against tau its meaningless, against IG and DE it's meaningless. Against space wolves assaulting with a tac squad is suicide, likewise with grey knights. They do nothing to Dark Angels. Etc. About their only use is against other tactical marines, and I guess sisters? Either way the tac squad is better off firing its bolters for the same level of damage output and avoiding the halberds and demiklaives.
The kraks are actually better on sisters then tacs since the sister squad is a dedicated close range fire support squad, meaning that they aren't wasting points by moving and being close to enemy vehicles. Compared to tacticals which are forced to take a heavy weapon (which is comped into their points). The sisters are crappy compared to grey hunters, but so is everything in the entire space marine army book. Grey hunters are just overpowered.
Either way, you didn't go up 3 points. You went up like 1 depending on what you take for a loadout. For the krak grenades thats worth it, you're just as good with those as everyone else. The 6+ isn't useless either. It will save sisters in combat and aren't a bad addition in the meta which is ap3-2 spam. The sisters didn't get worse, they have a faith ability that's actually pretty good for taking and holding objectives, especially in the back field against shooting. It's like a watered down ATSSNF and has other uses.
I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.
Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.
n0t_u wrote:Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.
Sisters don't strike first due to grenades. They'll usually go second.
Most certainly. My pessimism towards GW's treatment of Sisters is legendary.
Kreedos wrote:They were my second army, I bought them during 5th
I was more into the fluff (still am, in fact), but I bought my first Sisters models in third edition. I sold some of them off a few years later to pay for a college book, and then bought some more cheap on ebay to bring them back to 2000. Then in fifth edition I really starte to get into Orks and Guard, and found that it's nice not to play an army that sucks. I love the lore of the Sisters, but I loathe how underpowered they are, as well as the design of the abdomen/chest of the power armor on the models.
Celtic Strike wrote:How about a regular tac squad?
Try the bolt pistol and then assault, which is far more effective with Sisters no longer having an I4 unit.
Celtic Strike wrote:Or a Heavy squad with 4 H. Flamers
9 Sisters, 1 vet, 4 Heavy flamers.
Pts: 205 MEQ Kills: 4.791 Kills per point spent: 0.0233
That does not include rending hits as the chances are marginal. Increase by a few hundredths if you feel like it.
If the command squad can take three heavy weapons with relentless, colour me happy. 3 Multimeltas hoping out of a vehicle and hitting.
What is the comparison to the current WH codex SoB though?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
n0t_u wrote:Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.
Sisters don't strike first due to grenades. They'll usually go second.
I thought you were talking about the uselessness of grenades on tactical marines. Really they belong on assault units and not much else in my opinion.
ShumaGorath wrote:I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.
I don't disagree. My point was that this doesn't mean that the basic Battle Sister was somehow an excellently designed unit. It certainly isn't now, for sure.
ShumaGorath wrote:
I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.
I've got to whole heartly disagree with you here, the basic sister was the strongest unit in the codex when given a Braizer, it was durable and had both anti tank and fantastic anti troop, also they could even punch MC's with str 5 and divine guidance. The basic sister could do everything, and I rarely ever took less than 6 and 3 Exorcists, the rest of the codex was filler, and an HQ you didnt even want.
Melissia wrote:
I was more into the fluff (still am, in fact), but I bought my first Sisters models in third edition. I sold some of them off a few years later to pay for a college book, and then bought some more cheap on ebay to bring them back to 2000. Then in fifth edition I really starte to get into Orks and Guard, and found that it's nice not to play an army that sucks. I love the lore of the Sisters, but I loathe how underpowered they are, as well as the design of the abdomen/chest of the power armor on the models.
I've had no problems competing with Sisters, in every tournament I've been in, I've placed in the upper middle of the pack, and I've even won one, granted it was a FLGS tourney, but still it counts I think. I've never really thought to myself that the old book sucks, and every time I'd try and tell my friends that, they'd laugh in my face and say I'm overpowered. Against my two friends I play the most, I've rarely lost with my Sisters, I'm talking like 8/1 Ratio most likely. I'm not saying this to brag, I'm just saying the overall experience I've had is nothing but good.
They were my second army, I bought them during 5th, and have proudly played them the whole time.
I bought them during 2nd, am I allowed to complain?
One of my favorite parts of the 40K fluff/universe, and they have so much potential to be a flavorful army with amazing models, and yet GW misses the boat with both rules and models (or lack thereof).
Pretty much all my fav armies have suffered and pretty much been rendered moot: Genestealer cult,SOB, LATD,
if it wasn't for Orks I probably would have quit playing 40k at this point...
ShumaGorath wrote:I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.
I don't disagree. My point was that this doesn't mean that the basic Battle Sister was somehow an excellently designed unit. It certainly isn't now, for sure.
I think it's pretty good. But I'm stuck with tacs, so maybe that colors my perception. I'm quite a bit more for something that's less useful.
Kreedos wrote:I've had no problems competing with Sisters, in every tournament I've been in, I've placed in the upper middle of the pack, and I've even won one, granted it was a FLGS tourney, but still it counts I think. I've never really thought to myself that the old book sucks, and every time I'd try and tell my friends that, they'd laugh in my face and say I'm overpowered. Against my two friends I play the most, I've rarely lost with my Sisters, I'm talking like 8/1 Ratio most likely. I'm not saying this to brag, I'm just saying the overall experience I've had is nothing but good.
My Guard army can frequently table most Sisters armies in two turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Melissia wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.
I don't disagree. My point was that this doesn't mean that the basic Battle Sister was somehow an excellently designed unit. It certainly isn't now, for sure.
I think it's pretty good. But I'm stuck with tacs, so maybe that colors my perception. I'm quite a bit more for something that's less useful.
And I think tacs are definitely better than Sisters. The only advantage Sisters have over Tacs is the second special weapon, but the Tacs increased durability and melee capability more than make up for it.
Melissia wrote:The only advantage Sisters have over Tacs is the second special weapon, but the Tacs increased durability and melee capability more than make up for it.
There are 4 SoBs for every Marine. That's an advantage.
Melissia wrote:The only advantage Sisters have over Tacs is the second special weapon, but the Tacs increased durability and melee capability more than make up for it.
There are 4 SoBs for every Marine. That's an advantage.
What.
No, seriously, what? Most Battle Sister squads are roughly equal to the price of a ten member Tactical squad.
Melissia wrote:My Guard army can frequently table most Sisters armies in two turns.
You're either playing against 12 year olds, playing against Witch Hunters without Rhinos, or WH that don't know how to play (which there's more of than ones that do by far.)
In fact, most people that play WH have a small collection of usually around 1500 points or so, and have other armies that they mainline, rarely do people take the time to get good at such an army, esp when people have said they've sucked for so long.
My two armies are WH and Necrons, I'm here to tell you, both armies don't suck currently in 5th, not in the least bit. If anything they're OP or broken.
They have disadvantages, but if played in the right configuration, both are extremely competitive. I have every bit of confidence in this.
Kreedos wrote:In fact, most people that play WH have a small collection of usually around 1500 points or so, and have other armies that they mainline, rarely do people take the time to get good at such an army, esp when people have said they've sucked for so long.
Or I just played to IG's anti-mech strengths like it was a bible.
Any of 40k's armies can win games if they're played intelligently, but that doesn't mean that they're top-level tourney material. I haven't seen a Witch Hunters army place (1st through 3rd) in a major tournament any time recently.
Melissia wrote:My Guard army can frequently table most Sisters armies in two turns.
My dad can beat up your dad?
I don't even care so much about the power level of the new list, or the costs, though apparently that is the focus for many.
I am saddened by the list because unless the actual codex includes more units it won't really be a shift to a more varied representation of the Ecclessiarchy.
I wanted zealot mobs, Confessors, Missionaries, etc.
i wanted a book that played up the martyrs, unwavering faith, zealous crusading, etc.
I think that that is what GW has lost over the years: the classic 40K Grimdark atmosphere.
We now have every tom, dick and harry playing GK because they are the "it" army of the moment, yet without a daemon in sight. In fact i have not witnessed nor read about a single game in which they actually are fighting daemons...
The great thing about the 40K universe was the level of insidiousness that lurked below the surface gnawing away at the Imperium: Cultists. heretics. mutants, daemons. These sort of non-conventional "forces" that tried to rise up. Chaos cultists, genestealer cults, Renegade IG, Apostate Cardinals, etc.
These elements of the 40k setting (along with things like thr Admech, etc.) are what gave it such a dark, horrific element, and these sorts of armies need to be represented officially in the game imho to breathe life into the game, kick start the hobby aspect of 40K (oh so much modelling/conversionpotential in those kinds of armies), etc.
What we don't need are seven more marines codexes and endless games of GK vs. Blood Angels...
And I think tacs are definitely better than Sisters. The only advantage Sisters have over Tacs is the second special weapon, but the Tacs increased durability and melee capability more than make up for it.
You're cheaper and I would rip off my own arm and hand it to you to have two special weapons. Especially if one was a heavy flamer, something I don't get at all. A 10 man tac squad isn't much more durable. T3 vs 4 means you take 17% more wounds from str 3-4-5. Oh noes. You're 25% cheaper. That toughness sure does help against... Heavy bolters? Most of what I lose marines to comes at the tip of a missile, a canon shell, or a halberd. You're every bit as survivable against what actually matters. Those lasguns aren't what you're tabling your "opponents" with.
Actually, I came in 3rd at the local feast of blades tourney recently. The guy who won was a deamon player who BEAT the gak out of a Grey Knight player
End result is Sisters are roughly the same price as tacticals after equipment purchases.
ShumaGorath wrote:and I would rip off my own arm and hand it to you to have two special weapons.
I'll grant you that. Certainly it's one of the big advantages of grey hunters.
ShumaGorath wrote:T3 vs 4 means you take 17% more wounds from str 3-4-5
Yes, which is useful against... every single main rifle of every single army in the game.
ShumaGorath wrote:You're every bit as survivable against what actually matters. Those lasguns aren't what you're tabling your "opponents" with.
No, I'm tabling my opponents with autocannon spam to take down their transports and AP3/AP2 blasts to kill the enemy, but against assault armies, or boltguns, or shooty Orks, or eldar, or necrons, or Tyranids, etc, the advantage is quite profound. Also against longfang missile spam the extra toughness helps.
End result is Sisters are roughly the same price as tacticals after equipment purchases.
Marines buy equipment as well. My squads usually end up at 245 points with a rhino, melta, combi, and a power fist. That's more then a sister squad.
I'll grant you that. Certainly it's one of the big advantages of grey hunters.
Don't play down access to heavy flamers. If I had those I wouldn't automatically lose when lining up against an ork horde in an objective game.
Yes, which is useful against... every single main rifle of every single army in the game.
17% more wounds and 25% less points. It's a good ratio. You're also not likely to get shot at by many infantry rifles in this game any more. About the only army that still takes them in large numbers is basic marines and necrons. Both have to and wish they didn't. One of them is even necrons. If you're getting pushed around by necrons then you should probably just quit.
No, I'm tabling my opponents with autocannon spam to take down their transports and AP3/AP2 blasts to kill the enemy, but against assault armies, or boltguns, or shooty Orks, or eldar, or necrons, or Tyranids, etc, the advantage is quite profound. Also against longfang missile spam the extra toughness helps.
No, I'm tabling my opponents with autocannon spam to take down their transports and AP3/AP2 blasts to kill the enemy, but against assault armies, or boltguns, or shooty Orks, or eldar, or necrons, or Tyranids, etc, the advantage is quite profound. Also against longfang missile spam the extra toughness helps.
The twin specials and heavy flamers are better against orks and nids then the toughness. I'd rather lose combat and die first round. Being stuck in with orks leads to crushing defeats. Your huge access to melta is great against crons as well. As for long fangs, I don't know what to tell you. I just get shot with krak missiles. We both lose to that crap.
End result is Sisters are roughly the same price as tacticals after equipment purchases.
If they're 125 for 10, you end up at 1pt more. If you take into account Rhino cost decrease they're likely cheaper overall than they were before. Say, 125 base, 20pts for 2 meltaguns, 15pts for a PW, 35 for a Rhino, you're looking at 190 for that squad? Cheaper than it is now, and about 30-50pts cheaper than most MEQ units.
End result is Sisters are roughly the same price as tacticals after equipment purchases.
ShumaGorath wrote:and I would rip off my own arm and hand it to you to have two special weapons.
I'll grant you that. Certainly it's one of the big advantages of grey hunters.
ShumaGorath wrote:T3 vs 4 means you take 17% more wounds from str 3-4-5
Yes, which is useful against... every single main rifle of every single army in the game.
ShumaGorath wrote:You're every bit as survivable against what actually matters. Those lasguns aren't what you're tabling your "opponents" with.
No, I'm tabling my opponents with autocannon spam to take down their transports and AP3/AP2 blasts to kill the enemy, but against assault armies, or boltguns, or shooty Orks, or eldar, or necrons, or Tyranids, etc, the advantage is quite profound. Also against longfang missile spam the extra toughness helps.
Sorry, I think I missed something somewhere along the thread...
How expensive IS the new equipment for basic Sisters? Cause the way I was running my Sisters units - probably a non-competitive way, but that's okay, the game isn't entirely about competition - they were taking a veteran superior with plasma pistol or power weapon, two special weapons, and still coming out a good 20 points below an un-upgraded or free-upgraded Tactical Squad. I could see the difference being made up entirely in transport costs, but I dunno if they nerfed transport costs.
Pouncey wrote:
How expensive IS the new equipment for basic Sisters? Cause the way I was running my Sisters units - probably a non-competitive way, but that's okay, the game isn't entirely about competition - they were taking a veteran superior with plasma pistol or power weapon, two special weapons, and still coming out a good 20 points below an un-upgraded or free-upgraded Tactical Squad. I could see the difference being made up entirely in transport costs, but I dunno if they nerfed transport costs.
Transports were 53-58 points
So about 222 points for a 10 Strong SoB squad with VSS w/ Combi Wep and book in a Rhino.
We dont have to pay for VSS now, combi is only 10 points now instead of 15 I think, Rhinos are 35 not 58.
Even a fully kitted Sister squad sees a point decrease.
10 SoB + Combi Weapon, Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun in a Rhino = 195
Pouncey wrote:
How expensive IS the new equipment for basic Sisters? Cause the way I was running my Sisters units - probably a non-competitive way, but that's okay, the game isn't entirely about competition - they were taking a veteran superior with plasma pistol or power weapon, two special weapons, and still coming out a good 20 points below an un-upgraded or free-upgraded Tactical Squad. I could see the difference being made up entirely in transport costs, but I dunno if they nerfed transport costs.
Transports were 53-58 points
So about 222 points for a 10 Strong SoB squad with VSS w/ Combi Wep and book in a Rhino.
We dont have to pay for VSS now, combi is only 10 points now instead of 15 I think, Rhinos are 35 not 58.
Even a fully kitted Sister squad sees a point decrease.
10 SoB + Combi Weapon, Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun in a Rhino = 195
:: murrs :: I like... Cause that's as much as my mom's Tactical Squads without transports cost... Of course, she went cheap with em, gave em a flamer and missile launcher but added a powerfist each.
Melissia wrote:The army was old, stale, overpriced, and underpowered. Now it's new, stale, even MORE overpriecd, and even more underpowered.
Well said Melissia. That pretty much sums up SoB from the time GW discontinued printing codex Witch Hunters, 10 Sisters box set, and 5 Seraphims box set, up until now.
Pouncy wrote::: murrs :: I like... Cause that's as much as my mom's Tactical Squads without transports cost... Of course, she went cheap with em, gave em a flamer and missile launcher but added a powerfist each.
Finally someone with some what of a positive attitude that doesn't seen this whole thing as a murky depressing wasteland of change.
This was posted by me a couple hours ago on the B&C:
With the Sisters of Battle WD (both of them) firmly in my hands, I think it is time I blow away whatever rumours are floating around by unloading the grim, grim facts.
For everyone holding out with the hope that the points or options will make it better (of which I was one)... they don't. At all. Period.
Lets go through all the pain at once, but first for the one golden ray of hope in this codex(!)
-Celestine is VERY low points, making her an almost 'must-take' and - since Canoni can no longer take jump packs - just about the only way for anyone to use their celestine conversions (myself included)
Now that the hope is out of the way, onto the rest of it, one unit at a time.
-Canoness: get ready for a repeat of the Chaos Lord in that you get sweet jack-all in the way of options. You get weapons, a purchasable invul, and melta-bombs. Nothing else. Also, she is not the economic character she once was, nor is she the monster slayer capable of going toe-to-toe with other characters. An average build will see you just shy of 100.
-Other special characters: Both cost the same and are under 100.
-Confessor: nearly a carbon copy of the Canoness without the power armour, but with a 4++ standard. Conclaves are limited to 1 per Confessor or Uriah or Kyrinov.
-Command Squad: Caps out at 5 models and has great options for the three Celestians in the squad - including 3 heavy weapons. Combined with their act of faith, these girls could be the new wave of multi-melta platforms. They can also swap for close combat weapons. These girls are not cheap, however, and heavy flamers are the most costly of the heavy weapons - twice as much as a multi-melta, and 4 times the cost of a heavy bolter.
Celestians: options just like a battle sister squad with either 1 heavy one special or two specials. They cannot, however, swap for close combat weapons. Funny how the squad with close combat faith got the shooty weapons, and the squad with shooty faith got the option for close combat... actually, that is not funny. Also, their price went up to make them on par with Chaos Marines for cost.
Repentia: These girls dropped in price somewhat, but are still not cheap. The mistress seems better kit wise, but that is about it. Squads cap at 10 models, but the 0-1 restriction has been lifted. Also, there is nothing saying that they can't get in transports.
Sister Squad: They can now take heavy weapons, but don't expect anything aside from a marginal cut in points - and I mean marginal. They are the only troops unit. Also, regardless of the size, you can only ever take a maximum of 2 weapons.
Rhino: Is now in line with every other codes with 2 differences: it can still pack on a second storm bolter, and searchlights are not included as standard.
Immolator: Very SAD. Points stay the same, but with the increased cost of extra armour, our immies now cost MORE than they used to. Also, can you say heavy flamer nerf now that we are not fast? They can only be taken as transports.
Seraphim: Drastic points cut - they cost as much as a celestian. The twin pistols will knock you through the roof, however, as they are very, very pricey.
Dominions: transport is no longer mandatory, and special weapons are overall cheaper than they were before.
Retributors: No premium cost on heavy weapons in this squad - they cost as much for Retributors as they do anyone else, meaning an overall reduction from before.
Exorcist: Unchanged. The cost is the same, as are the rules.
Penitent engine: pretty much the same as last time in terms of cost. Are heavy, and can be in squadrons of three.
Closing thoughts:
I spent a lot of time looking for a silver lining, but honestly I don't think there is one. This codex is a downgrade without a doubt. I don't think that it will invalidate any existing sister units (with the exception of jump canoni) but the obvious lack of effort put into this book is startling. It honestly looks like a bunch of devs sat around a board room table one afternoon and chatted about how to bring the sisters in line since they had neglected them for so long.This doesn't even feel like a codex - it feels like a mini-dex you'd find in a starter box.
A dark day.
I, for one, plan on giving this book one shot in one game, at which point - if the silver lining in an otherwise pitch-dark cloud hasn't become obvious - I'm going to march right back to the old book and verbally abuse anyone who tries to give me crap for it!
Pouncy wrote::: murrs :: I like... Cause that's as much as my mom's Tactical Squads without transports cost... Of course, she went cheap with em, gave em a flamer and missile launcher but added a powerfist each.
Finally someone with some what of a positive attitude that doesn't seen this whole thing as a murky depressing wasteland of change.
Yeah. It's good to be positive. ^_^
Especially since I don't really see what's so terrible... Though I'm hesitant to post that, since I know about 4-5 different posters will jump all over that comment and detail to me just how and why my Sisters are more useless than ever.
But I like having a 6+ invulnerable save across the board. I like having my dead Repentia sometimes being able to get an attack in despite their death.
Mainly I think of it as, "Hey look, something NEW for my Sisters army! Sure, it's not new models, but it's at least something new and somewhat different, while still being mostly the same! YAAAAAAY!!!"
Cause honestly, I love new stuff. I love getting to explore things and options that I haven't before. Sometimes the results aren't so great, but it's always a learning experience!
The biggest decision I'll have to make in a few weeks in my gaming life, is whether to keep on trying out my Slaaneshi Daemons, or come back to my beloved Sisters of the Flame, and see if I can figure out something good.
Speaking of which... I need to figure something out, some way to condense the 2 parts of the Sisters of Battle WD Dex - once I get the second part - into one, small stack of papers that I can flip through and bring to my games at home, looking for special rules, points costs, etc. etc. without having to flip through two different magazines to find just the right piece of info. And by Slaanesh's bountiful bosom, I'd loathe having to look up new special rules and wargear mid-game in 2 WDs. One thing someone suggested, but I didn't know the legality about and as such wasn't really willing to try until I find out, was photocopy the relevant pages and bind them together to make a sort of minidex.
Lady_Canoness wrote:This was posted by me a couple hours ago on the B&C:
With the Sisters of Battle WD (both of them) firmly in my hands, I think it is time I blow away whatever rumours are floating around by unloading the grim, grim facts.
For everyone holding out with the hope that the points or options will make it better (of which I was one)... they don't. At all. Period.
Lets go through all the pain at once, but first for the one golden ray of hope in this codex(!)
-Celestine is VERY low points, making her an almost 'must-take' and - since Canoni can no longer take jump packs - just about the only way for anyone to use their celestine conversions (myself included)
Now that the hope is out of the way, onto the rest of it, one unit at a time.
-Canoness: get ready for a repeat of the Chaos Lord in that you get sweet jack-all in the way of options. You get weapons, a purchasable invul, and melta-bombs. Nothing else. Also, she is not the economic character she once was, nor is she the monster slayer capable of going toe-to-toe with other characters. An average build will see you just shy of 100.
-Other special characters: Both cost the same and are under 100.
-Confessor: nearly a carbon copy of the Canoness without the power armour, but with a 4++ standard. Conclaves are limited to 1 per Confessor or Uriah or Kyrinov.
-Command Squad: Caps out at 5 models and has great options for the three Celestians in the squad - including 3 heavy weapons. Combined with their act of faith, these girls could be the new wave of multi-melta platforms. They can also swap for close combat weapons. These girls are not cheap, however, and heavy flamers are the most costly of the heavy weapons - twice as much as a multi-melta, and 4 times the cost of a heavy bolter.
Celestians: options just like a battle sister squad with either 1 heavy one special or two specials. They cannot, however, swap for close combat weapons. Funny how the squad with close combat faith got the shooty weapons, and the squad with shooty faith got the option for close combat... actually, that is not funny. Also, their price went up to make them on par with Chaos Marines for cost.
Repentia: These girls dropped in price somewhat, but are still not cheap. The mistress seems better kit wise, but that is about it. Squads cap at 10 models, but the 0-1 restriction has been lifted. Also, there is nothing saying that they can't get in transports.
Sister Squad: They can now take heavy weapons, but don't expect anything aside from a marginal cut in points - and I mean marginal. They are the only troops unit. Also, regardless of the size, you can only ever take a maximum of 2 weapons.
Rhino: Is now in line with every other codes with 2 differences: it can still pack on a second storm bolter, and searchlights are not included as standard.
Immolator: Very SAD. Points stay the same, but with the increased cost of extra armour, our immies now cost MORE than they used to. Also, can you say heavy flamer nerf now that we are not fast? They can only be taken as transports.
Seraphim: Drastic points cut - they cost as much as a celestian. The twin pistols will knock you through the roof, however, as they are very, very pricey.
Dominions: transport is no longer mandatory, and special weapons are overall cheaper than they were before.
Retributors: No premium cost on heavy weapons in this squad - they cost as much for Retributors as they do anyone else, meaning an overall reduction from before.
Exorcist: Unchanged. The cost is the same, as are the rules.
Penitent engine: pretty much the same as last time in terms of cost. Are heavy, and can be in squadrons of three.
Closing thoughts:
I spent a lot of time looking for a silver lining, but honestly I don't think there is one. This codex is a downgrade without a doubt. I don't think that it will invalidate any existing sister units (with the exception of jump canoni) but the obvious lack of effort put into this book is startling. It honestly looks like a bunch of devs sat around a board room table one afternoon and chatted about how to bring the sisters in line since they had neglected them for so long.This doesn't even feel like a codex - it feels like a mini-dex you'd find in a starter box.
A dark day.
I, for one, plan on giving this book one shot in one game, at which point - if the silver lining in an otherwise pitch-dark cloud hasn't become obvious - I'm going to march right back to the old book and verbally abuse anyone who tries to give me crap for it!
-L_C
Thanks for sharing Lady_Canoness.
Ouch, news of Immolators not getting any better hurts. Time to convert my Immy Spam list into a Rhino Spam. Celestians got nerfed big time. At least Exorcist remains the same and Celestine will be a beast in all 3 missions. Future SoB lists will most likely focus on Exorcists, BSS, Dominions, and non-Canoness characters. Not sure if Celestians will be feasible given their new point costs.
At least there's still Imperial Armour Vol.2 Immolators we can fall back on for the "fast heavy flamer."
Celtic Strike wrote:
I'm a little shocked that they kept the random fire on the Exorists. That's the most weird thing I've seen
It's a mainstay of the army, if they changed it, it would really really hurt how the Sisters play. It's a random fire, but it's one of the only long range AP 1 weapons in the game, and it's great at 48 Inches. On avg it will out preform a Las Turret/Sponson predator, and costs pretty much the same I believe. There's no feeling like rolling a 6 for the exorcists shots though, feels good man.
One complaint I have is that DE Ravagers are 105 points, and they're pretty much the more reliable version of a Exorcist, but armor 10. I dont know if 3 pts of front armor is worth a comparable 30 pts.
And you're only going to give it one shot with the new codex without any practice? Did you win an Ard boyz tourny on your first game? That's amazing.
WTF? You aren't making any sense whatsoever. I'm speculating based on the tidbits of info from B & C, hence the word "will most likely focus". FYI, Ard Boyz 2011 tournament started before WDSoB was fully released. Anyone winning Ard Boyz tournament are essentially using c:WH, which IMO is vastly superior compared to the new WDSoB codex. I'm not competing in Ard Boyz, but I know there are c:WH players who are competing in the upcoming semi-finals. Though I doubt they will get any further than that considering c:WH glaring weakness in kill points.
Celtic Strike wrote:
I'm a little shocked that they kept the random fire on the Exorists. That's the most weird thing I've seen
It's a mainstay of the army, if they changed it, it would really really hurt how the Sisters play. It's a random fire, but it's one of the only long range AP 1 weapons in the game, and it's great at 48 Inches. On avg it will out preform a Las Turret/Sponson predator, and costs pretty much the same I believe.
One complaint I have is that DE Ravagers are 105 points, and they're pretty much the more reliable version of a Exorcist, but armor 10. I dont know if 3 pts of front armor is worth a comparable 30 pts.
Hm... Maybe I should pick up an Exorcist sometime... A GW one for sure, since it's about the same price as a FW one once all costs are included - I'd go with the SoB doors, to be honest - and to be honest, I like the pipe organ over what looks more like a nifty Whirlwind.
It'd really give me the urge to rewrite my lists to include vehicles, much as I dislike having vehicles in my armies at the moment - mainly because it often takes special weapons to hurt them. That's the exact reason my brain keeps giving me for not including vehicles in any of the lists I run against each other, and I'm not sure it's entirely logical. Still, the GW Exorcist is beautiful, and I'd love to have one in my arsenal, especially if I ever managed to get the damned thing painted!
I made the comment on how they'd try the new codex ONCE before quitting with the army completely.
Anyway, eldar used to have a lot of random fire weapons. Well two I can think of right now. Pulse Laser and scatter laser. D3 and D6 respectively. I just thought they were going to make it a standard 3 or 4 shots and be done with it.
I do like the randomness but I'm surprised they kept it, since GW seems to be hating on it so much recently
Da Boss wrote:Yeah, for sure. I'm glad someone made the Grey Hunter/Sister comparison.
6 Sisters vs. 5 Grey Hunters, I know who my money is on.
Keep in mind the shooting output of the Sisters is exactly the same, or perhaps slightly better (not sure what weapon options the Sisters have). Eight or nine point Sisters, despite being called for by several people, would break the game...
And you're only going to give it one shot with the new codex without any practice? Did you win an Ard boyz tourny on your first game? That's amazing.
WTF? You aren't making any sense whatsoever. I'm speculating based on the tidbits of info from B & C, hence the word "will most likely focus". FYI, Ard Boyz 2011 tournament started before WDSoB was fully released. Anyone winning Ard Boyz tournament are essentially using c:WH, which IMO is vastly superior compared to the new WDSoB codex. I'm not competing in Ard Boyz, but I know there are c:WH players who are competing in the upcoming semi-finals. Though I doubt they will get any further than that considering c:WH glaring weakness in kill points.
I'm pretty sure there's a month lapse before a new codex is tourny legal, when is semis?
And you're only going to give it one shot with the new codex without any practice? Did you win an Ard boyz tourny on your first game? That's amazing.
WTF? You aren't making any sense whatsoever. I'm speculating based on the tidbits of info from B & C, hence the word "will most likely focus". FYI, Ard Boyz 2011 tournament started before WDSoB was fully released. Anyone winning Ard Boyz tournament are essentially using c:WH, which IMO is vastly superior compared to the new WDSoB codex. I'm not competing in Ard Boyz, but I know there are c:WH players who are competing in the upcoming semi-finals. Though I doubt they will get any further than that considering c:WH glaring weakness in kill points.
Maybe I can explain.
Celtic's basically saying that it'd be a bit silly if you were to dismiss a Codex based on the results of one match, because it doesn't accurately reflect how well the army might perform. You'd still be learning to use it, your opponent will still be learning to deal with it, dice can go badly or extremely well, your particular list against your opponent's particular list might be a good or bad matchup, and on and on and on. It's hard to judge an army based on the results of one good game or two bad ones.
His or her 'Ard Boyz tourney comment was meant to remind that a single game doesn't make you win or lose a tournament in and of itself.
Celtic Strike wrote:Shooting potential output for the sisters is slightly higher, I did the math cos I'm lonely
That's great news! Cause I play my Sisters as shooty - though I might add in a unit of Repentia somewhere just cause I have like 20 of the damned things and I'd like to see how they fare. ^_^
Celtic Strike wrote:I didn't compare the old to new codex but I will. I'm lazy right now and will do it later but this is the quick comparison I came up with.
11 Firewarriors, 1 Shas'el (Rapid fire range)
Kills per point spent: 0.0201
Pouncey wrote: That's great news! Cause I play my Sisters as shooty - though I might add in a unit of Repentia somewhere just cause I have like 20 of the damned things and I'd like to see how they fare. ^_^
I'll trade you some Sisters for Repentia I need some of them
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Pouncey wrote: 4 Heavy Flamers? Mmmm, templates and lack of needing to roll to hit... :: drools ::
That assumes the heavy squad can take four of them.
The numbers are different for a 4Xflamer squad but not much.
Kreedos wrote: They can, it specifically says they can in the first dex in their entry.
Awesome, where is everyone getting the new dex from already?
Also, prepare for 0.0233 dead marines per point spent of cold hard death.
The first SoBWD says they can take heavy flamers and they're HS so they're no way they're not going to be able take 4, I dont have the new dex yet sadly.
Saying that to myself makes me think they have to be 45, I dont see 65 justified, maybe the person meant with a heavy flamer, which would make sense, (razorback price + 20) Same thing.
Pouncey wrote: That's great news! Cause I play my Sisters as shooty - though I might add in a unit of Repentia somewhere just cause I have like 20 of the damned things and I'd like to see how they fare. ^_^
I'll trade you some Sisters for Repentia I need some of them
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Pouncey wrote: 4 Heavy Flamers? Mmmm, templates and lack of needing to roll to hit... :: drools ::
That assumes the heavy squad can take four of them.
The numbers are different for a 4Xflamer squad but not much.
Nah, I like my Repentia too much.
Plus, I'm a bit of a hoarder IRL. Not too much, just a bit. I still had the box from the first Rhino tank kit I ever got. I was using it as my bitz box, at least up until it got too damaged to feel safe to keep hundreds of bitz in. I used to save all my boxes. The infantry sets I would flatten and stack. The blister packs I would remove the card backing and stick the plastic stuff together. After a few years, I had a flattened out stack of boxes about 7-8" thick, and my blister packs were about 5-6" thick all together. Then I ended up throwing them all out on a whim, or maybe I needed the hanging shelf space in my cupboard for something. I wish I'd kept them, just for nostalgia's sake.
I never get rid of stuff that could be useful, until it's useless. And my miniatures, I just don't tend to get rid of anymore. Now I keep em all, cause I never know when I'll want to play em again.
And I'll be damned if posting in this thread tonight hasn't rekindled my love affair with my Battle Sisters... Juuuuuust as I was really getting into my upcoming Chaos Daemons army, too! DAMN YOU!!!!
I agree, they're pretty cool models, I have 20 of them myself that I'm planning on using with footslogging variants of the new sisters codex, which they're going to be able to do very efficiently. I did the math, and it looks like I can fit 111 Sisters on the board, with good upgrades and options with 6x sister squads 3x dominion 1x HQ /w command squad and 3x Retribitor Squads with Heavy Bolters
I was gonna wait and comment when I actually got the magazine, but there is something I gotta say.
A minor increase to the prices of basic sisters is not a big deal. As others have pointed out, power armor, a bolter and good ld is easily worth 12 points per. I wouldn't even think about complaining if basic Sisters were 12 points... if they were in an imperial guard army.
As it stands, they are in a sisters of battle army. Those extra flamer templates are nice and all, but that is all they got, a narrow window of effectiveness before they are assaulted or shot to pieces. See, those Dire Avengers, they have a pile of heavy AP3 busting guns, specialist assault units and psychic powers backing them. Those tau, battle suits and rail guns. And those are the "weaker" armies of the comparisons. Vet IGs are backed by numbers and firepowers and marines, well they are backed by marines. All of these armies can count on the sisters coming through a lot of fire to get into rapid fire range, the sisters meanwhile have 3 exorcists and some heavy bolters.
If it wern't for all the other nerfs, 12 points would be nothing. I would stand up and salute 12 point sisters if say, acts of faith were any good. Whatever, we got grenades right? But we had lost so much before we even suspected the new point costs that it is just one more kick in the pants, especially after listening to all the people saying "wait for the point cost, sisters will be cheaper and that will fix everything!"
Yeah, I'm gonna get the second half of the list, play some games, and see what I can make out of this. I will probably even win a few games. But that does not make it a good list or 12 points a good price for Battle Sisters.
On the plus side, it looks like my remaining sisters will be enough for an army after all. Yay?
DarknessEternal wrote:There are 4 SoBs for every Marine.
Can you confirm a source on this rumour? I mean, 12 points was disappointing, but 4 points sounds very much like wishlisting.
Edit:
Celtic Strike wrote:It doesn't make sense if sisters Immolators are more expensive than stock Razorbacks
Current rumours are that the price of the Immolator is unchanged from C:WH, the HB option is a free swap-out, and the MM option costs 15pts.
So going off C:SM, HB Immolators are 25pts more expensive than HB Razorbacks, HF Immolators are the same price as HF Razorbacks, and MM Immolators cost 5pts more than Lazorbacks/Plazorbacks
So going off C:SM, HB Immolators are 25pts more expensive than HB Razorbacks, HF Immolators are the same price as HF Razorbacks, and MM Immolators cost 5pts more than Lazorbacks/Plazorbacks
I suppose that's why there is this special reroll to wound ammunition on sisters HB ? Or did I misread ?
Grenat wrote:I suppose that's why there is this special reroll to wound ammunition on sisters HB ? Or did I misread ?
I suspect so - although I'm not sure who in their right mind would think that rerolling up to three AP4 wounds was worth 25 points
Maybe if they had ignored Cover Saves, instead, it would be worth that.
I agree. I would love to have some kind of "Very Special" Heavy Bolter for Sisters to strengthen it, in comparison with MM and (well a little more bitter now) HF.
Grenat wrote:I agree. I would love to have some kind of "Very Special" Heavy Bolter for Sisters to strengthen it, in comparison with MM and (well a little more bitter now) HF.
Agreed - I'm surprised they didn't just give Immolator heavy bolters Rending, a la Retributors. Regarding the Heavy Flamer, it's sad that we've lost the special rule that allowed it to move 12" and still fire - I would have thought that, at least, combined with the loss of the fire point would have warranted a points drop of some description.
When people say that you have to pay through the nose for pistols on Seraphim, do they mean melta and flamer specifically? In context of the rest of this list I wouldn't be shocked if they were at their cheap cost but you had to buy bolt pistols.
Also does Celestine let you buy a command squad? I think every list is going to use her and the guy that lets you reroll faith.
Well indeed, the only way Celestine and Uriah are not going to be the 2 mandatory HQ choice is if you can't select a command squad (Uriah permit a conclave, I suppose) for people who want to field it.
How sad when all your armies are lead by the same characters...
It is useless to examine just the point cost changes in SoB units without considering the changes to their abilities. These are (standard SoB Squad):
Gain:
6++
Frags/Kraks
Bolt Pistol
Faith Reroll 1's to hit in shooting
Reduced ~10-15 points with transport (standard HF/Melta Loadout)
Lose:
5+ Targeted Psychic Defense
Immunity to Force Weapons (not a big deal for non IC)
All previous Faith powers - namely Divine Guidance
Book of St. Lucius (remember too this let you be ld 10 near a Cannoness)
I know people are trying to see the bright side, but it is tough to see how this army is going to work at all. Especially with hugely overloaded Heavy slots (1 troop choice but 3 Heavy and 3 Elite options?) It sadly does not make sense. Also, the Immolator nerf is huge.
For the record Heavy Bolters suck - there is a reason noone takes them, even guard take Hull Heavy Flamers and not Heavy Bolters...
calypso2ts wrote:
For the record Heavy Bolters suck - there is a reason noone takes them, even guard take Hull Heavy Flamers and not Heavy Bolters...
That's typically because they can't move and use the HB and whatever other weapons they have so the HF gives them a different capability. If the Defensive Weapons rules went back to their 4E incarnation, you'd see those HF's flying off and HB's in vogue again in many cases.
That said, from the rumors we are seeing, I do have to ask why GW bothered with this update. It doesn't appear they are really updating it to a "5E" standard aside from transport/EA pricing, and many of the other changes seem to be there just for the sake of change in and of itself to say they did an update. While I don't think it's as bad as some are making out, from what it looks like basic sisters squads after kit and transport will be a bit cheaper, this whole event does seem sorta pointless seeing as how on the whole army composition won't appear to change much, if at all.
I am one of those crazy guys who like sisters for their look, yeah, i like those metal chicks... I was wondering making a sister army for a long time, i am right now... They are in third within my list (first goes space dwarves in power armor, them orcs in space, and them comes the sisters).
I was pretty excited for those WD codex, thinking if the sister could became a little better, now if i ever do a sister army i will count them as blood angels, or beg my opponet to let me use the old codex.
Serious: never compare costs with tactical marines, they are overcosted, every marine player know it, besides their good stats, units of them dont work well. Marine armies are meant to be played with Veterans/Termies/Devs and tacticals fulfilling troops...
I think sisters now are meant to do the same, and their units are pretty "marine styled", so compare what sisters get with what marines get. Marines are poor in offensive power, they are a defensive army. Sister loose defense, so we should see more offensive power, and as we see now, it is not happening...
Celtic Strike wrote:
Yes, but imagine how much your opponent will want to break something if you make them at the *Right* time? That's why I play this game, for crazy gak to happen like that.
It was awesome when 2 guardsmen killed 2 terminators in close combat. Its funny, but if I'm playing for the awesome random moments then I'm playing for the wrong reason. I like being able to predict what should happen statisically in the game.
Crazy crap happening is acceptable in board games or small skirmish stuff like Mordheim or Blood Bowl and is typically handled in a more colorful way (guys breaking legs, getting stuck in death cult fighting pits, etc). When I am paying upwards of $1000 for an army to use in a strategic game, I want it to function on a semi reliable level. Randomness of dice are always a factor but highly unlikely odds influencing stuff is always frustrating.
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.
While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm
You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good. Either way "Suck on it apologists" is something a troll says.
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Ixquic wrote:Crazy crap happening is acceptable in board games or small skirmish stuff like Mordheim or Blood Bowl and is typically handled in a more colorful way (guys breaking legs, getting stuck in death cult fighting pits, etc). When I am paying upwards of $1000 for an army to use in a strategic game, I want it to function on a semi reliable level. Randomness of dice are always a factor but highly unlikely odds influencing stuff is always frustrating.
ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.
Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?
I would say that Dominions that are potentially twin linked and scout are better even if they can't get four special weapons for five models.
Repentia are better having lost the "can't get into transports ever" rule and having one more attack. Being able to take a cover and a FNP save is also handy.
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.
While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm
You gain a bit you lose a bitlot. Several entries in the book are downrightslightlybettermore acceptable now, while the basic sister squad is differentand stillbut not quite as good. Either way "Suck on it apologists" is something a trolla realist who knows GW doesn't gak rainbows says.
ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.
Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?
Vaktathi wrote:More per model, total squad costs however seem to be lower after kit and transport.
While losing the book and the flexibility of their old faith powers. Yes, total gain. /sarcasm
Not saying it's a gain, it looks to be a wash after everything is said and done. Cheaper, Frag(admittedly mostly useless)/Krak(not useless)/(Pistol?)/6++ in exchange for losing 5+sv against psychic powers (extremely situational), some Faith functionality and an Ld wargear upgrade option.
ShumaGorath wrote:You gain a bit you lose a bit. Several entries in the book are downright better now, while the basic sister squad is different and still good.
Out of curiosity, which are "downright better" now?
Dominions and Celestine are the only ones that are flat out better.
Ixquic wrote:I would say that Dominions that are potentially twin linked and scout are better even if they can't get four special weapons for five models.
Dominions are definitely better. We'll see just how much so, though. The change to no required transport is odd....
That book provided -unmodifiable- 9 or 10 Ld to the sisters.
The acts of faith included the 3++ invulnerable save, usable in any phase.
No 5+ save, and lack of ability to take an inquisitor with psychic hood, mean we no anti psyker skill at all.
Dominion upgrade is good for scout, bad for weapon compliment.
Repentia are better, but still not worth taking, FNP on T3 is nearly nice, but being slower and having to rely on a transport slot isn't useful.
Seraphim losing no init tested hit n run, and faith, is a huge pain. Having double tap back is nice though, but weaker flamers aren't. having init 1 when priests get init 4 is kind of a gyp.
Canoness being useless, no fun.
Immolator losing 12 inch move flamers
What you should consider is now they don't have the very defining faith system, they now have nothing that other armies can't just do better.
Spiku wrote:That book provided -unmodifiable- 9 or 10 Ld to the sisters.
The acts of faith included the 3++ invulnerable save, usable in any phase.
No 5+ save, and lack of ability to take an inquisitor with psychic hood, mean we no anti psyker skill at all.
Dominion upgrade is good for scout, bad for weapon compliment.
Repentia are better, but still not worth taking, FNP on T3 is nearly nice, but being slower and having to rely on a transport slot isn't useful.
Seraphim losing no init tested hit n run, and faith, is a huge pain. Having double tap back is nice though, but weaker flamers aren't. having init 1 when priests get init 4 is kind of a gyp.
Canoness being useless, no fun.
Immolator losing 12 inch move flamers
What you should consider is now they don't have the very defining faith system, they now have nothing that other armies can't just do better.
streamdragon wrote:I'm still going to miss 4 melta Dominions in an Immo though :( With no DG I can't really think of a reason I'd run Flamer Dominions anymore though.
I thought someone did the math and twin linked flamers against Marines did more wounds than rending due to wound allocation shenanigans.
Depending on what's going you can load up all the AP1 shots on your special weapon or sergeant to save more models. Not as good as nobs but I've had multiple AP1 wounds neutralized in such a manner in some circumstances.
On the other hand against anything with a 5+ save twin linked comes out far ahead.
I don't see the nerf to divine guidance as that much of a problem for Dominions. Especially since it did nothing for melta guns while now we can reroll hits.
Against regular five Terminators divine guidance results in 3.333 wounds. Twin linked gives 2.5.
Against Storm Shield Terminators (probably the more common variety these days) it's 2.2222 wounds so twin linked comes out ahead.
Lots of shocks, and some of NOW have more reason to winge than before IMO, so for all those that said wait until the second part came out, well......WE TOLD YOU SO. IMO, this is a travesty of crud, wasted time, laziness and poor handling from a company such as GW.
This is what you get now. Firstly whats NOT available now: Blessed Weapon Book of St Lucius Brazier of Holy Fire Cloak of St Aspira Litanies of Faith Mantle of Ophelia Praesidium Protectiva Purity Seals Sacred Banner of the Order Militant Sarissa Blessed Ammunition Holy Icon Holy Promethium Laud Hailers
All those are now missing from 3rd edition, meaning nearly all of the Wargear good for SoB are now gone, yep, GW right royally shafted them here.
What you get though: Laud Hailers for squads; unit within 12" on a 6 on d6 get a Faith point back Simulacrum Imperialus; re-rolls faith tests now Chirurgeons tools; grant FNP Blessed Banner; within 12" re-roll Moral/Pinning and score 1 extra wound in CC while she is alive.
Rundown of each unit: St. Celestine is 115 points Cannoness is 65 point + wargear (no jump packs anymore but can take a Rosarious) Sororitas Command Squads 115 points for 3 Celestians, 1 Dialogus, 1 Hospitaler, can take 3 heavy weapons Uriah and Kyrinov both 90 points. Ecclesiachy Confessors 75 + wargear Battle Conclave 15 points each (can take a transport now) Ecclesiarchy Priest 45 plus wargear. Celestian Squad 80 = 15 per Celestian for additional 5 + wargear Repentia Squad 90 + 17 per for additional 5, (now max 10 not 20) Battlesister Squad 125 +12 each for additional 10 (max size 10-20, can choose any heavy weapon now) Rhino 35 Immolator 65 Seraphin 80 + 15 each for additional 5 (2xhand flamers cost 20 per model or Inferno costs 30) Dominion 70 +13 per additional upto 5. (have to take 10 to get 4x Special Weapons now) Retributor Squad 65 +12 each (can take HF, MM or HB) now useful in Immolators. Excorsist 135 (NO change to stats, still only glances AV14 on a 6) Penitant Engines 85 each (squads of 3 comes with 2x heavy flamers now)
So over all, not happy, sad to see them being shafted as they are. Celestians can't complete with the likes of Paladins, Sangiunory gaurds or any other elite specialist. You cant take 4 special weapon Dominion squads in Immolators now, you need more Rhinos. Still lacking any long range weapons to take on AV3+ (big let down for the Excorsist), and loosing out on Celestians gaining any form of CC weapon (only Superior can) is painful. So overall prices are up from 11 points overall, loosing valuable wargear, and NO new units to counter codex broken armies like BA or GK's is just a let down. I stand by that as soon as i heard of the WD release, i knew GW would never commit to feasible play with the SoB, i stand by my words that GW has made a mockery of SoB and poorly submitted itself in any form of explanation to how truely crap this WD codex is. I plan to test these rules this weekend in a 1,000 point tournament.
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Ixquic wrote:On the other hand against anything with a 5+ save twin linked comes out far ahead.
... so? When did they EVER have problems killing enemies with 5+ saves anyway? Killing MEQ and tanks are what Sisters have problems with.
Deadshane1 wrote:Grenades are flat out a waste of points on sisters....at least they were.
Yeah, the only advantage I see Frags giving them now is that they at least can make a Str 4 attack vs. armored targets. It isn't much but at least it's something.
Ixquic wrote:On the other hand against anything with a 5+ save twin linked comes out far ahead.
... so? When did they EVER have problems killing enemies with 5+ saves anyway? Killing MEQ and tanks are what Sisters have problems with.
Statistically twin linked is only a little worse against MEQ and slightly better against Thunder Hammer terminators.
It's a bummer that we didn't get something that kills MEQ better but in terms of Dominions we didn't lose much. Other aspects of the new list are more annoying.
I honestly don't think the grenades are really factoring into the pricing since now practically everything has them and Guardsmen didn't go up in price. Looking at previous examples of stupid 6++ saves or 6+ WBB and the absurd pricing of a power armored model in a Grey Knight Inquisitor squad those probably have more to do with the new 12 point price.
GW has a history of overvaluing stuff and don't realize how stuff really ends up working.
In the picture of the imagifiers/banner bearers, what model is that with the flaming brazier on top o the banner? Is that a converted Celestine?
No, it's a converted exorcist organist, back from the days when you could bitz order such things.
I remember the very day they stopped the bitz ordering.
I was about to order another ~500 points of Sisters in fact, I wanted specific models (helmeted models) for them. And I could not anymore despite having been looking at them for a few days picking them out. I sent an email in confusion and they were like "we don't do that anymore".
I tried to order the Maiden Guard three times before they finally just straight up told me that they wouldn't fill the order. Then a week later the bitz service was discontinued.
Luckily I was able to buy all the undead horse heads I needed a month prior. Really the end of bitz service was when I lost much of my interest in the company since the attitude of buying full $10+ blisters for one part was so over the top anti-customer I couldn't support them anymore.
Sisters were my first army, 8 years ago. To them' Ive added GK, 7 years ago. With the tremendously cool update that was Codex: Grey Knight, i just can say that this WD Codex: Sisters of Battle is less than "meh".
Even without new models, they could have added very nice things to the codex and still kept some "bang" for a future release.
Now, I feel as excited as I'd be by trading a '97 white Corolla for a '99 beige Corolla.
I'll be back in a year when then deal is getting closer (if it is, after Necrons, Tau, CSM, Black Templars, Dark Angels, 6th ed.....). Make that 2 years...
Phil
ps. Kudos to all those of you that manage keep excited!
This definitely looks like a 'contractual obligation' list that fills a need, but in such a way that no one (probably not even the author) is truly satisfied. Points may trend high to account for limited playtesting (If it's overcosted, how can it be broken?) and there's no real room for the author to innovate or even replicate a lot of the old rules, so what's put in sounds every bland.
The part about them running themselves out of business.
More like suing themselves out of business.
Actually, the only real way to know something is to experience it first hand.
This one is so funny it made me laugh. Melissia is 100% right here dude.
<text redacted; remain polite and topical, please, while discussing this incredibly important topic --Janthkin>
For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.
For 2 points
That is really irrelevant, on paper it sounds awesome yes but only with the whole codex picture can it be seen if they are overpriced or underpriced.
I can argue the same about SM and GK, the GK marine gets a power weapon, ability to instantkill stuff, almost assured S5, a stormbolter, almost assured ability to totally deny enemy deepstrike,l access to dirt cheap thunderhammers etc...all this for only 4 points more then a lukewarm SM marine.
You need context of the full codex if you want to make unit vs unit point comparisons.
Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates.
Nah, she´s cool and have good arguments, just a bit to hot headed and insulting but then again who am I to judge. lol
11 Firewarriors, 1 Shas'el (Rapid fire range)
Pts: 130
MEQ kills: 2.61
Kills per point spent: 0.0201
9 Sisters, Vet Sister, Flamer, H. Flamer (Subjective again I know)
Pts: 150
MEQ kills: 3.18
Kills per point spent: 0.0218
Do with that information what you will...........
Again, out of context.
1: How many points does it take to get these units into their optimal killing range? Last time I checked flame weapons are not effective without transports.
2: How many turns does it take said squa to get to killing? (the sister HF need time to get in range)
3: How many casualties will it take on average (see 1 and 2) before it can start killing, thus how many less minis in the squad on average will tehre be to do the killing, thus how much less effective is it then the on paper calculation?
4: How many other units need to babysit the squad and/or make sure it is unhindered to do it killing, is it more self reliant or is it more seamed into the army overal?
5: How likely is it that the squad is destroyed in return after having its´one turn of shooting kills? Those HF sisters can shoot once but the turn after the surviving genesteelers will make the squad a very ineffective killing machine indeed.
You see now why simple point comparisons cant be taken as the ultimate truth?
You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something. Yep, assaulting with 9 tacs. 18-9-4.5-1.5 So im paying 10 points so that I can kill another tac marine on the charge before they kill .75 of mine. So useful. I'd rather pay less and get to have two special weapons instead of having to pay for a heavy and special conjoined at the hip to make the worst squad possible.
The worth might be more from disallowing the opponent their charge bonus.
So, has anyone actually tried a game or two with the new SoB codex and can give some proper feedback?
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Any of 40k's armies can win games if they're played intelligently, but that doesn't mean that they're top-level tourney material. I haven't seen a Witch Hunters army place (1st through 3rd) in a major tournament any time recently.
I have, it won a 120 army tournament.
You're cheaper and I would rip off my own arm and hand it to you to have two special weapons. Especially if one was a heavy flamer, something I don't get at all.
You do but it takes up an elite slot and costs 35 points. It´s fething sad.
10 SoB + Combi Weapon, Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun in a Rhino = 195
Damn, that´s cheap, it´s like a tac with a free rhino.
More then offsets their lower statline.
-Canoness: get ready for a repeat of the Chaos Lord in that you get sweet jack-all in the way of options. You get weapons, a purchasable invul, and melta-bombs. Nothing else. Also, she is not the economic character she once was, nor is she the monster slayer capable of going toe-to-toe with other characters. An average build will see you just shy of 100.
Thank god we no longer get to see that pesky FNoD!
At least the codex has the ultimate paladin melee killers ...just...trying...to...find...silver...lining...
And you're only going to give it one shot with the new codex without any practice? Did you win an Ard boyz tourny on your first game? That's amazing.
No experience and winning a tourney? If he did he probably played dark eldar.
Serious: never compare costs with tactical marines, they are overcosted, every marine player know it, besides their good stats, units of them dont work well. Marine armies are meant to be played with Veterans/Termies/Devs and tacticals fulfilling troops...
Oooh, I could even play my Slaaneshi Daemons against my Battle Sisters. Cause my mind would go to a very nice, if somewhat perverse, place while I game. ^_^
Kreedos wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Nah, I like my Repentia too much.
I agree, they're pretty cool models, I have 20 of them myself that I'm planning on using with footslogging variants of the new sisters codex, which they're going to be able to do very efficiently. I did the math, and it looks like I can fit 111 Sisters on the board, with good upgrades and options with 6x sister squads 3x dominion 1x HQ /w command squad and 3x Retribitor Squads with Heavy Bolters
Nice! Looks like I'd better get my ass in gear and get myself more Sisters of Battle!
I did always like Retributors. One of my first 40kRPs, I played a Retributor Superior. ^_^
I just wish I didn't have to dump 5-700 points on tacs just to avoid getting massacred in any objective based game. It's a comparison that isn't friendly to tacs, but those are still the most common troop found in the game by a significant margin. Comparing SoBs to the most common other troop choice isn't a useless comparison, and highlights one of the strengths of the army.
See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Sorry, i have to disagree... I've owned the hell outa guard leafblower at a tourny... but of course that was when I had 3++... maybe now it will be more suicidal.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Sorry, i have to disagree... I've owned the hell outa guard leafblower at a tourny... but of course that was when I had 3++... maybe now it will be more suicidal.
As someone with two mech IG armies, I can guarantee you if given the choice I'd rather face footslogging sisters than mech sisters every time. Explosions happen 1/6 penetrating hits. Pinning tests on Ld9 are no worse than for Space Marines or Eldar. That box means i've got to waste firepower on it before I can shoot the sisters and also provides an element of LoS denial as well (kill the transport, disembark sisters behind transport, now I can shoot at them anymore). It also means those sisters get to user their melta and flamers weapons a full turn earlier typcially than they would otherwise if they were footslogging. So for the few occaisions where you get an explosion and lose maybe 1-2 girls, you're saving yourself from lots more firepower beind tossed at them.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Sorry, i have to disagree... I've owned the hell outa guard leafblower at a tourny... but of course that was when I had 3++... maybe now it will be more suicidal.
Or the leafblower player was terrible. How a footslogging sister squad would make it that far is beyond me. He's getting 3 turns of almost uninterrupted shooting.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Sorry, i have to disagree... I've owned the hell outa guard leafblower at a tourny... but of course that was when I had 3++... maybe now it will be more suicidal.
Or the leafblower player was terrible. How a footslogging sister squad would make it that far is beyond me. He's getting 3 turns of almost uninterrupted shooting.
Not totally uninterrupted: Exorcists destroyed anything I pointed them at, my Seraphim made quick work of his vendettas, and my Callidus assassin was was causing havoc in his backfield Manticores.
Also, no, he didn't 'suck'... I understand why you can't/won't/don't believe me... this is the internet after all, but I went in with a plan and he went in with a smug: "Oh I have a leafblower list and all you have is people on foot, how cute" attitude... I had the game in the bag on turn 4.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
The statistics really don't fall that way for vehicle death and pinning. They'll have to kill 3-4 transports to get one of them. That's really not much different then just killing 12 sisters with a full turns shooting. Walking is suicide against most armies.
Sorry, i have to disagree... I've owned the hell outa guard leafblower at a tourny... but of course that was when I had 3++... maybe now it will be more suicidal.
Or the leafblower player was terrible. How a footslogging sister squad would make it that far is beyond me. He's getting 3 turns of almost uninterrupted shooting.
Not totally uninterrupted: Exorcists destroyed anything I pointed them at, my Seraphim made quick work of his vendettas, and my Callidus assassin was was causing havoc in his backfield Manticores.
Also, no, he didn't 'suck'... I understand why you can't/won't/don't believe me... this is the internet after all, but I went in with a plan and he went in with a smug: "Oh I have a leafblower list and all you have is people on foot, how cute" attitude... I had the game in the bag on turn 4.
Is it a foot list when the damage is coming from tanks and jump packs?
Not really sure why people need to playtest it. It's just a normalized, Dark Angelfied witchhunters codex. It's almost exactly the same SoB codex except the special rules and equipment went out the window.
Exorcists? Immolators? Rhinos? Pretty much the same except the flamer immolator is worse.
It's not like their stat line changed.
All it is is the same codex with the best parts of witchhunters gone. No blessed weapon, no 2++ saves, no eviscerators in any basic sister unit, no fast flaming immolators.
Can you win with it? Yeah you can...immo spam is still alive. Other than that? They do mech worse than everyother army and they do foot worse than every other army.
I like how when any other Codex comes out, people are all like, "OMG THIS IS SO OP NERFBAT PLZ K THANX!!!" But when it's Sisters of Battle, it's more like, "WAAAAAH! Our army sucks now!!!!"
Is this normal for Sisters of Battle players? To whine about nerfs like it's the end of the world, whenever we get an update that doesn't make us super awesome?
Pouncey wrote:I like how when any other Codex comes out, people are all like, "OMG THIS IS SO OP NERFBAT PLZ K THANX!!!" But when it's Sisters of Battle, it's more like, "WAAAAAH! Our army sucks now!!!!"
Is this normal for Sisters of Battle players? To whine about nerfs like it's the end of the world, whenever we get an update that doesn't make us super awesome?
I don't know it's been 10 years since the last book you tell me what people on the internet were bitching about then.
scuddman wrote:
Exorcists? Immolators? Rhinos? Pretty much the same except the flamer immolator is worse.
It's not like their stat line changed.
Not quite, all of the vehicles now have a 6+ inv save. The rhino also has a 6+ immobilized fix in the shooting phase and it looks like free smoke launchers too.
They are about the only thing that has got better IMO.
Pouncey wrote:I like how when any other Codex comes out, people are all like, "OMG THIS IS SO OP NERFBAT PLZ K THANX!!!" But when it's Sisters of Battle, it's more like, "WAAAAAH! Our army sucks now!!!!"
Is this normal for Sisters of Battle players? To whine about nerfs like it's the end of the world, whenever we get an update that doesn't make us super awesome?
Just sayin, but when the Nid book came out there was a lot more SoB type crying than, say, GK type crying.
Also if you really are trying to compare this ... thing to something like the BA, DE or GK books I really don't know what to say.
Pouncey wrote:I like how when any other Codex comes out, people are all like, "OMG THIS IS SO OP NERFBAT PLZ K THANX!!!" But when it's Sisters of Battle, it's more like, "WAAAAAH! Our army sucks now!!!!"
Is this normal for Sisters of Battle players? To whine about nerfs like it's the end of the world, whenever we get an update that doesn't make us super awesome?
I don't know it's been 10 years since the last book you tell me what people on the internet were bitching about then.
Mmm, ten years ago I didn't even know what WH40k was. ^_^
I do hope though that it's not another 10 years before we get another update.
Mostly I'm glad to get an update, even though I've been playing Sisters for just a few years now. Cause I like new stuff. ^_^
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streamdragon wrote:
Pouncey wrote:I like how when any other Codex comes out, people are all like, "OMG THIS IS SO OP NERFBAT PLZ K THANX!!!" But when it's Sisters of Battle, it's more like, "WAAAAAH! Our army sucks now!!!!"
Is this normal for Sisters of Battle players? To whine about nerfs like it's the end of the world, whenever we get an update that doesn't make us super awesome?
Just sayin, but when the Nid book came out there was a lot more SoB type crying than, say, GK type crying.
Also if you really are trying to compare this ... thing to something like the BA, DE or GK books I really don't know what to say.
Mmm, granted on the Nid book, though I have some memories of people complaining about Doom. There was even a few videos about it, but I don't think I was back from my hiatus from WH40k at that point.
Oh, I know it's not the same. I was rather disappointed that the first part, containing all the background supposedly, was what? Ten, fifteen pages long? Still, in my mind, it's new stuff! NEW STUFFLES! : D YAAAAAY!!!
DarknessEternal wrote:That was supposed to say 4 SoBs for every 3 Marines. Which is an advantageous match up for the SoBs.
But 12 point SoBs (which aren't 12 points) to 16 point Tac Marines is advantage SoB.
Right up until you get charged by those Marines because you can't hurt them at ranges greater than 12". Remember, somebody said we are paying 20 points for heavy flamers. That's going to make us BLEED in every unit.
Revarien wrote:See... I don't get why folks are so enthused to be running sisters mech (even in the WH dex)... I personally think Rhino's are deathtraps for Sisters... or anything with T3...
They're closed top, meaning they take a S4 hit when it explodes.... and does often... So I now take 10 S4 hits that wound on 3s. After 1-2 die, then I have to take a pinning test on a 8-9... and if I have 5-6 squads, I'm probably failing 1-2 of those... meaning my firing efficiency is hindered and I'm open to easy assault...
I'm a big fan of spaced blobs for sisters... going from rhinos to foot slogging upped my wins by a ton.
See above. Sisters are mech because they can't shoot at ranges greater than 12". Which means you take 2-3 turns of pounding from real shooty armies trying to close the range if you are foot, and have fast movers blow straight past your 12" engagement range to melee. Where you promptly die, regardless of how many T3 3+ models you happen to have. If you are mech, you have 1-2 turns of pounding from real shooty armies and have a ablative metal box protecting you for a little while from shooting and those nasty, nasty melee units.
I truly do not understand how you can beat *anything* not named Necron in either objective mission with foot sisters.
Strong points: Dominions. 5 dominions in an MM immolator can be dangerous. Too bad their AoF totally ignores flamers, but whatever. Celestine! Just too cheap. Wait for a FAQ that says 'Oops, we misprinted a 1 when we meant a 9". ...
Potential Strong Points: 100 for 4 HBs with 2 bullet catchers isn't bad. I don't know if it will be better than Exorcists, but with scouting Immolators it may be workable. Seraphim at 15 could be good. 10 models do 12 hits with boltguns, or 9 wounds and 3 casualties. So 10 could be a lethal threat to a 5 man marine squad, or 20 for a 10 man. I don't know if the weapon upgrades are worth it, considering the ruinous price. Yeah, 30 for two inferno pistol shots is good, but it is worth 2 more Seraphim? A lot of their combat ability came from mass numbers of S5 or I6 attacks, plus 3++. Death Cult are really good, and while we can't buff them like GK or give them a Land Raider like GK, a Rhino full of them with a Preacher could be good. Celestians + Uriah + Cannoness. 4 attacks at S4 I4 preferred enemy? Now if only a sane man had designed Celestian options, and too bad Prefered Enemy and Righteous Rage don't stack. Command Squad in a Rhino with 2 Multimeltas. Maybe Repentia? Putting them in a Rhino means they aren't totally useless, but they suffer the same problem as any melee unit in a non-assault transport.
Nerfs: Faith and SoB squads. The reason they needed a price cut was because what made them strong, Faith, was getting mangled. This is a NET LOSS, and I suspect there will be no price difference given rumors of 20 point heavy flamers. PE's. Slower. Expensive. Too expensive for something that will likely never reach combat. Celestians without IC stacking. A2, yet no melee options. WTF? Why would I ever, EVER field this over a troops unit unless I'm desperate for more Immolator spam? Speaking of which, do Rets get dedicated transports now? No Torch. I wasn't expecting the Book to stay, regardless of how important it was, but no Torch?
Laugh, then Cry: Condemner Boltgun. Immolator costs v Razorbacks. Especially BA Razorbacks.
carmachu wrote: It was awesome when 2 guardsmen killed 2 terminators in close combat. Its funny, but if I'm playing for the awesome random moments then I'm playing for the wrong reason. I like being able to predict what should happen statisically in the game.
So, you're not playing for the fun then? Its a game remember?
We play a dice game that's lost a lot of its flair over the years. If you're not playing for the crazy part then I think YOU'RE playing for the wrong reasons.
The Grog wrote:
I truly do not understand how you can beat *anything* not named Necron in either objective mission with foot sisters.
I've done it before, and against Space Marines too. No vehicles in either army. By the end, I had Celestine, a unit of 10 Battle Sisters parked on one objective, and a unit of 2 Battle Sisters parked on another. That was the remains of my army. My opponent had a 10-man scout sniper squad on a hill, a single Tactical Marine on an objective in cover, and an 8-man Honor Guard unit backed up by a Chapter Master that had waded through my army, butchering my units in close combat.
Neither army was optimized for competitive play, but it proves it was possible to Sisters footsloggers to win objectives-based games.
Every thing is possible. Sometimes ago I killed 3 TH/SS Terminators with 3 laspistol of my DKoK platoon command squad. Strangely enough, my 2 melta in the same squad did nothing (only pointing the funny situation we face, sometimes !)
The Grog wrote:
Immolator costs v Razorbacks. Especially BA Razorbacks.
This is the most WTF change for me. Most of the other stuff is subjective but now the Immolator is a Razorback in everything but name and they think that a heavy bolter with rerollable wounds (thus max 3 wounds a turn) and a 6++ save is better than fast and a heavy flamer. It's unbelievable that they couldn't have at least given the thing an intelligent points value and really speaks for how much thought and effort went into writting this codex.
Grenat wrote:Every thing is possible.
Sometimes ago I killed 3 TH/SS Terminators with 3 laspistol of my DKoK platoon command squad. Strangely enough, my 2 melta in the same squad did nothing (only pointing the funny situation we face, sometimes !)
True, but it's not like it was a one-time event, and there didn't seem to be constant strings of very good luck on my part.
I should also mention that I ended that 7-turn game with at least 7-8 faith points unused.
boreas wrote: Now, I feel as excited as I'd be by trading a '97 white Corolla for a '99 beige Corolla.
Hey that's two years newer. The bluebook has to be slightly higher for that one. If you can get a trade for that you're making a profit!
My opinion is, Rets, Doms and Seraph, got cheaper - a lot cheaper in some respects - those were the core of my army to being with. I don't think that's going to change.
Sisters are meant to hold the line while other squads go out and do the killing. They may not be the best at it but there's still plenty of killing left in this army list.
That being said, looking at it now you're right - it has lost a lot of its flavour and charm and become a bit blander.
Pretty hilarious. Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Correcting grammar on the internet? Yep.
Correcting my grammar for a quote in a foreign language? Daaamn, got some free time on your hands?
You know, some people actually speak "foreign" languages with great fluency. ^_^
Back on topic, I think I'll be getting September's WD when it goes on sale in-store, even though I have a subscription. Ten bucks for an extra couple of weeks of playtime with the new SoB codex? That's a trade I'd make. ^_^
DarknessEternal wrote:That was supposed to say 4 SoBs for every 3 Marines. Which is an advantageous match up for the SoBs.
But 12 point SoBs (which aren't 12 points) to 16 point Tac Marines is advantage SoB.
Right up until you get charged by those Marines because you can't hurt them at ranges greater than 12". Remember, somebody said we are paying 20 points for heavy flamers. That's going to make us BLEED in every unit.
Bolters and Stormbolters still go 24" Were you really taking Heavy Flamers before? Why would you now?
And for whoever lied about only Rhinos getting better; Seraphim are vastly improved. 68% the cost and twice the offense.
The Grog wrote:Dominions. 5 dominions in an MM immolator can be dangerous. Too bad their AoF totally ignores flamers, but whatever.
You know twin-linked means you re-roll wounds/ armor pen on flamers, right?
Huh, I thought I had read that their Act was 'reroll hits' not 'weapons are twin-linked' back when I was reading the scans. Thanks for pointing that out.
JB_Man wrote:Almost every player took a melta and a heavy flamer in every squad...
Why is that up for debate, again?
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DarknessEternal wrote:And for whoever lied about only Rhinos getting better; Seraphim are vastly improved. 68% the cost and twice the offense.
And -1 initiative, no rending, and no invulnerable saves. You can't compare the models like that. The army relied on more than just a good stat line.
Wait, what?
Seraphim, due to the new version of the Angelic Visage special rule, not only HAVE the (nearly?) army-wide invulnerable saves, but they get to re-roll their failed 6++ saves.
Pouncey wrote:
Seraphim, due to the new version of the Angelic Visage special rule, not only HAVE the (nearly?) army-wide invulnerable saves, but they get to re-roll their failed 6++ saves.
I should have been more clear when I said "no invulnerable save." Compare that to the old faith 3+ invulnerable. Call me crazy, but I'll take my 3+ invul, rending, and initiative over a rerollable 6+ invulnerable and rerolling wounds. I'm just glad that I never used the Inferno Pistol, anyways.
DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.
That's because it practically was. Especially since Seraphim were practically guaranteed to get it, or anything else. 9 faith points + martyrs lasts a very long time, especially when you only need rending in the last few turns when you're actually spamming fire and invuls in emergencies or for Seraphim.
DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.
I find it interesting for - I suspect - precisely the opposite reason to the reason you find it interesting. All I've heard from folks arguing in favour of the changes to the Faith system is how the 3++ was 'game breaking' for exactly that (erroneous) reason. I suppose it's a one of those Guardian vs. Daily Mail things - diff'rent strokes, and all that.
DarknessEternal wrote:It's interesting that people are acting like the 3+ Invulnerable save was permanent and on every unit.
I find it interesting for - I suspect - precisely the opposite reason to the reason you find it interesting. All I've heard from folks arguing in favour of the changes to the Faith system is how the 3++ was 'game breaking' for exactly that (erroneous) reason. I suppose it's a one of those Guardian vs. Daily Mail things - diff'rent strokes, and all that.
I can see why people would say that. How many times, in a fully mechanised army, do you really need to take advantage of an invulnerable save? Just when you get unlucky and they pop a vehicle early, maybe, or in your big, final assault? You don't really have to use the power as often as people think. It's like your entire army has a 3+ invulnerable. The staying power granted by Faith and the BoSL was unrivaled...especially at such low points costs. It's even worse with the Cloak or Celestine. 2+ invulnerables... they just make people mad.
JB_Man wrote:I can see why people would say that. How many times, in a fully mechanised army, do you really need to take advantage of an invulnerable save? Just when you get unlucky and they pop a vehicle early, maybe, or in your big, final assault? You don't really have to use the power as often as people think. It's like your entire army has a 3+ invulnerable. The staying power granted by Faith and the BoSL was unrivaled...especially at such low points costs.
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.
Not to mention that the most effective SoB shooting wounds came from Dominions and common-and-garden BSS squads dumping faith points into Divine Guidance. Remember, unlike the new system, Faith was a heavily limited resource - and the only way to 'regain' it was to largely stop your squads being able to use it.
JB_Man wrote:It's even worse with the Cloak or Celestine. 2+ invulnerables... they just make people mad.
Yeah - I'm pretty sure Dark Eldar players drink the tears of folks who hate T3 ICs with 2++. It was worse when a Canoness was cheesed out with the Mantle of Ophelia. Almost nobody took it, since it wasn't viewed as 'competitive' use of the points - and I've enjoyed the agonised groan of more than one opponent who disregarded it as fluff wargear and thought their DCCW had finally got past Canoness Cassopeia's inconceivably powerful armour, only for me to tick off one wound and say "Well, that's the Mantle gone".
Mythal wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.
How often do you really end up firing at battle sisters with AP1 or 2 guns, though, assuming you've gotten them out of their can? Even then, most armies cant bring enough shots to bear to instantly kill a squad through armor saves or cover, at which point the faith power very reliably goes off with the book keeping them from being broken for another couple of turns. Seraphim, of course, were the only unit not in a vehicle and took the majority of shots people didn't direct at rhinos, in my experience. They easily cheese the faith power, however.
Mythal wrote:
Not to mention that the most effective SoB shooting wounds came from Dominions and common-and-garden BSS squads dumping faith points into Divine Guidance. Remember, unlike the new system, Faith was a heavily limited resource - and the only way to 'regain' it was to largely stop your squads being able to use it.
All of the sisters real killing power came for the rending bolters/flamers and exorcists, in my opinion. And you're right, you do end up needing a good bit of faith to do that. But how often do you end up disembarking and shooting something to hell like that? It didn't happen very often for me. By the time faith points might be an issue, a few squads may have gone down and I'd have a little more, anyways. I'm not saying it was infinite or anything, but the powers were very strong and I rarely found myself absolutely hurting for them against most enemies.
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Revarien wrote:Have the WD now... Honesestly I think most everything has been said... But just in case: anyone have any questions?
(Please keep in mimd dakka doesn't like point values posted, but I can post equivelants... Though, like I said, I think everything is accurate.
Oh, and imo Celestine is a complete bargain for her points...
What is the points cost of Death Cult Assassins like? Higher, lower, same? Repentia? If you post some sort of equivalents (basilisk/3.6612? I knew they were useful for something...), I'll figure it out
Mm, I will miss Divine Guidance very, VERY much... I'll admit that to the nth degree. I was playing a game against my mom earlier today, my Sisters - using the WH dex - against her Space Marines. At the top of turn 2, she brutalized 2 SoB squads in melee combat. At the bottom of turn 2, I burned about 6 faith points on Divine Guidance to cook and blast apart Assault Marines, Honor Guard, and a hapless Tactical Squad. AP1 flamer hits from a single flamer alone accounted for 3 Honor Guard. Two squads - Tactical, Honor Guard - had been at full starting strength, and the Assault Squad had been down 3 from their starting strength - lousy dangerous terrain rolls killed those 3. By the end of the turn, after the Seraphim had assaulted the Tactical Squad- and forced them to flee after inflicting 6 casualties in melee - and the rest of my army pretty much shot at those 3 targets, there were 6 models left between the three squads. And I was still at 8 faith points, having lost my Canoness and 2 Veteran Superiors.
Brutal.
Oh, and I just picked up September's WD from my FLGS a little while ago. Already wrote my first list. ^_^ Gonna have to use LOTS of proxies until I can put an order in.
Death Cults are the same as the GK book... Additional repentia are 'additional tactical marine' +1pt. And a whole repentia squad (4 repentia and mistress) are the cost of a marine tact squad
aka_mythos wrote:And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.
People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.
Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
Okay, you are correct and your logic just blew the "quickie job, please forgive us" excuse right out of the water. This was deliberate. People want a new codex, they also would like to be informed on the progress towards attaining such a codex. They would also like to hear about any plans for new minis to model. When the US GW distributor has no clue what is coming out before it is published on the GW website, there is a problem. This isn't incomplete, it is gutted from what was on the table 2-3 months ago.
No, Mr "Sounds Like A Shill for GW Crudward", they could have FAQed C:WH in one WD issue. Looking at what they did in the first one, I could have done better in one evening.
aka_mythos wrote:Well that might be a fault of the Grey Hunter and not the SoB... just saying.
Fault trail: A. Codex Writer(s), B. Codex Editor/Reviewer(s) (if any), C. Codex Playtester(s) (if any), D. Game Development Supervisor checking with the 40K design plan (if any), E. GW Management providing oversight.
Since there appears to be exactly zero evidence that B., C. or D. exist, then it falls squarely on the one paying A. for their work. In other words E.
Congrats, you have made me log onto the forum to probably get my post edited and maybe a little time off from the forum, but you seriously need to go buy a truckload of TP for that nose of yours and maybe some crackers for that cheese you are eating.
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Manchu wrote:Yeah. It's hard to understand what the point of this was, other than as part of an attempt to revamp WD.
Dump sale the leftover metal minis give the points cost, pricing and weapon options? By direct order from GW only no less, I could get a discount at my LGS.
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Manchu wrote:Discussion requires courtesy. This is the only warning I'm going to post in this thread before suspending accounts. There have been enough Sisters threads with the exact same culprits for everyone to know what the expectations are: trading personal insults and flamebaiting/flaming are not allowed.
Sorry, too late, I already did it before I read your post, I'll take my punishment officer, it still felt good.
Although I'm not one of the usual suspects in this case...
JB_Man wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.
Turns out a 7 or 8 model Seraphim squad could pick up a 3++ quite reliably. Helps when you are getting shot at by, oh, say, battlecannons. Or assaulting Demon Princes or Terminators, to showcase some of my favorite moments. The previous Faith system was pretty controllable, unlike the random mess it is now. Unless you take 100+ points in Uriah and Simulacra. It wasn't completely controllable, as I've lost games from failing DG on 10 woman units or 3++ on 4 or 5 woman units.
I'm sure scans will pop up soon. I'm surprised there aren't any already.
JB_Man wrote:
Except that if you're reliably getting 3++ across the board, your army is built of 5-sister squads with Simulacra. And if it's making that much difference to the normal 3+ in assault, you're fighting someone who has cheesed out on power weapons in any case and they're simply irritated that you're getting any save at all. Despite what a lot of folks lamenting the old Faith system have said, it wasn't that reliable - you could try and stack the odds in your favour, but it was still RNG to the Nth degree - unless used on an IC, obviously.
Turns out a 7 or 8 model Seraphim squad could pick up a 3++ quite reliably. Helps when you are getting shot at by, oh, say, battlecannons. Or assaulting Demon Princes or Terminators, to showcase some of my favorite moments. The previous Faith system was pretty controllable, unlike the random mess it is now. Unless you take a 100+ points in Uriah and Simulacra. It wasn't completely controllable, as I've lost games from failing DG on 10 woman units or 3++ on 4 or 5 woman units.
I'm sure scans will pop up soon. I'm surprised there aren't any already.
One of my absolute favorite things use to be assaulting vehicles with them (getting that 6 in charge) and then using their special version of hit and run to bounce out and get further across the board and know they were perfectly safe because of how reliable that 3++ used to be...
algesan wrote:Dump sale the leftover metal minis give the points cost, pricing and weapon options? By direct order from GW only no less, I could get a discount at my LGS.
Conssidering most Sisters models went UP in points cost while still being ridiculously expensive in actual monetary price, this is unlikely to actually succeed.
So...Is there any reason to use BSS anymore? They use to be the core of my army. It seems like they have been marginalized.
One of the things I loved about Sisters was that Troops were the workhorses of the army. Unlike many other armies, we did not have to rely on Elites, FA, or Heavy to do most of the damage. I no longer think that this the case.
Well they are the only troops you can get now so you will have to use at least two. Not sure how many points you can fill with the rest of the slots seeing as elites seem fairly useless.
Ive got my copy of the codex, most of the rumors are true, about most everything.
Celestine is 115
Cannoness 65
Immolator comes standard a heavy flamer, not heavy bolter for 65
Battle sisters cant equip eviserators, not even celestians only HQ and Seraphim.
Heavy Flamers are 20 points, Melta is 10, and we now have combi melta in addition to flamer/plasma for 10
Multi Melta are also 10 points.
Sisters are indeed 125 for a squad of 9+Vet
Both Priest named HQ are 90.
Not including Frag nades, Storm Shield, and Chain Sword, we have a total of 10 pieces of wargear
Blessed Banner
Combi Weapons Plasma/Melta/Flamer
Condemnor Boltgun (str 5 ap -) Psyshock (if it hits directly and wounds on a psyker, it causes perils.)
Eviserator (same)
Laud Hailer (within 12" if a successful faith test is made, roll an additional D6, if the result is a 6, you gain a faith point.)
Neural Whip, str 8 wounds against LD Rosarius +4 Invul
Simulacrum - Reroll acts of faith
For vehicles
Dozer blade
Extra armor
HK Missile
Inferno bolts (only on heavy bolter, reroll to wound)
Storm Bolter
Searchlight
Kreedos wrote:Ive got my copy of the codex, most of the rumors are true, about most everything.
Celestine is 115
Cannoness 65
Immolator comes standard a heavy flamer, not heavy bolter for 65
Battle sisters cant equip eviserators, not even celestians only HQ and Seraphim.
Heavy Flamers are 20 points, Melta is 10, and we now have combi melta in addition to flamer/plasma for 10
Multi Melta are also 10 points.
Sisters are indeed 125 for a squad of 9+Vet
We always had access to the combi-flamer/melta for 10 points. The plas is new, however. 20 point heavy flamers are just silly, but at 125 points for the basic squad, I guess they just end up costing almost the same as they did before (155 now vs 146 before assuming no book since its not there anymore...). I'm also not quite sure why I would ever want anything that wounds vs leadership...it would be better at just str 4, though I don't see why it couldn't be a str 5 power weapon given that 1 model in the whole army uses those whips.
JB_Man wrote:
We always had access to the combi-flamer/melta for 10 points. The plas is new, however. 20 point heavy flamers are just silly, but at 125 points for the basic squad, I guess they just end up costing almost the same as they did before (155 now vs 146 before assuming no book since its not there anymore...). I'm also not quite sure why I would ever want anything that wounds vs leadership...it would be better at just str 4, though I don't see why it couldn't be a str 5 power weapon given that 1 model in the whole army uses those whips.
I didnt realize we had combi melta, but they were still 15 pts for plasma or melta, and 10 for flamer.
ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't 20 what everyone pays? (except blood angels, feth their broken razborbacks)
Everyone else also gets autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. When you get the "option" of flamer, melta, or no special weapon, I don't even know why they bother. Squads should just come with them.
ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't 20 what everyone pays? (except blood angels, feth their broken razborbacks)
Everyone else also gets autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, etc. When you get the "option" of flamer, melta, or no special weapon, I don't even know why they bother. Squads should just come with them.
I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.
ShumaGorath wrote:I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.
I'd take that deal. Flamers without rending really aren't that hot, anyways, since all you face are blue, white, silver, red, or <insert your favorite color> marines. It's not like sisters needed help killing Orcs.
ShumaGorath wrote:I don't get heavy flamers at all and I have to marry that meltagun to a missile launcher. They don't work together. It's not an "option" for me.
I'd take that deal.
You can have it. Sisters are better then tactical marines, straight up. Bar none. Enjoy your 245 point melta and combi in a rhino with a fist. Don't bother modeling on the missile launcher, you won't use it. You gotta take an objective with that squad! I'll be sitting pretty with my heavy flamer, flamer, and combi in a rhino at what? 180? Hell, I'll make it an immolator. I'll finally be able to beat that 200 ork army that's been giving me fits while still being able to deal with paladin spam due to the overwhelming amounts of melta and ap1 missiles im bringing to the table. It sure will be nice to get multiple weapons with similar ranges while not paying for a worthless strength and weapon skill married to a single attack on a 16 point model (guess what. All that stuff you lose to in close combat? Me too) . I won't even have to care about halberds! I'll just lose the squad and not feel so bad since i'll have another one.
It's not like sisters needed help killing Orcs.
Marines sure as hell do (there is no build possible that can beat both orc horde and paladin spam). This is sounding like a great trade so far.
For that prices, sister are pretty nice. They are playable, an kind of sexy... Im slowly liking it, but...
Well, we now just have cheaper, more fragile marines. I will make a sister army, just for the fun... I will just have to realize how i will play without my eyes and kidneys...
Immolators cannot hold SoB squads. And they won't be 180. 125+35+20+10+10=200. And congrats, when you see your SoB squad staring at an enemy Rhino full of tacs (or some better version of tacs) and realizing that barring the low chance of you destroying their Rhino and them failing to destroy yours or them failing pinning, you cannot beat that squad. You cannot even hurt it. They'll come out with at least 6 marines left and you'll be dead.
aka_mythos wrote:And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.
People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.
Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
Okay, you are correct and your logic just blew the "quickie job, please forgive us" excuse right out of the water. This was deliberate. People want a new codex, they also would like to be informed on the progress towards attaining such a codex. They would also like to hear about any plans for new minis to model. When the US GW distributor has no clue what is coming out before it is published on the GW website, there is a problem. This isn't incomplete, it is gutted from what was on the table 2-3 months ago.
I think that the claim is really running off on a tangent from the real state of affairs. It's true that the Sisters codex is getting a lot of complaints. But the Sisters 'dex doesn't represent a "bold new return to the past" for White Dwarf. If GW felt that Sisters needed an emergency replacement codex of some sort (which is what this essentially represents) then they were going to get it out to players. And the only method that GW has at its disposal to do that is White Dwarf. Or in other words, the Sisters Codex doesn't represent a change in direction in GW's attitude toward White Dwarf. It was going to get printed in WD no matter what.
Now that's not to say that there haven't been some changes that hint at a return to old methods in White Dwarf. Last summer, GW released the rules for the Eldar Nightspinner. And while people argued whether or not it was worthwhile to use Nightspinners (in part because it was yet another item in the woefully overloaded Eldar Heavy Support section), everyone thought that it was great that GW included it in the magazine. Similarly, last month saw the inclusion of a new Vampire Counts monstrous mount. And I'm confident that a lot of people bought the issue just to get the rules for those. So yeah, people do like it when GW puts new rules in White Dwarf.
The problem in this particular case is connected to the current status of Sisters. Sisters - or more accurately Witch Hunters - was a codex that was currently in the game (i.e. it hadn't been Squatted). It was a legal codex that you could use in any game. And now, seemingly for arbitrary reasons that they don't care to share with the rest of us, GW has replaced it with an obviously slapdash stop-gap. This is not a "bonus" item for WD readers. Rather, it's an emergency publication that GW felt that they had to get out.
A "proper" WD codex (and by that I mean one that will draw interest from fans) is one that isn't a rewrite of an existing book. Instead, it's one that supplements an existing army. For instance, a Harlequin Codex is something that might be appropriate for White Dwarf. Or a Genestealer Cult. Those are both armies that exist in the fluff, are related to existing armies, and use existing figures (or easily converted figures), but don't currently exist within the game (though both have existed in the past). Design the lists so that they work, but barely. They're not top-tier armies. They're more for people that want to build thematic armies, and they're not powerful enough to accidentally let something slip through that upsets the balance of the game. That's the kind of army list that should be showing up in the magazine. It's not the place for armies that have their own books - as was the case with Sisters. You want people to think, "Oh, this army list is a neat bonus!" Not, "I bought this magazine so that they could screw over my army? What the Warp!?"
So in summation, White Dwarf should have -
- New items to supplement existing lists like the Eldar Nightspinner and VC Terrorgheist
- Codices that supplement existing armies instead of completely replacing one of the armies that already exists
And finally, GW should have told us why they felt it necessary to implement this sudden update with Sisters. The lack of information coupled with the blatant lack of interest that GW has in selling Sisters figures (i.e. the extra work involved in trying to buy the models) is merely making things worse. What's the worst that can happen if GW were to tell us - the players might complain? I think that's already happening...
One last unrelated item...
On the inside back cover of the August issue of White Dwarf, we were informed that Cruddace would be playing the Sisters as they attempted to retake a Shrine World from an Ork horde. In the September issue (chock full of gorgeous new plastic figures being released for their brand new army list! I'm referring to Ogres, of course... ), Cruddace takes the Sisters and uses them against... a Tyrannid horde (played by Tom Hutchings) attacking a fortress that's being defended by Sisters. Actual details on the playthrough are ridiculously sparse so it's hard to tell what actually happened aside from a couple of highlights (Cruddace's Dominions scored three wounds with twin-linked heavy flamers on Hutchings's Trygon... but the Trygon made all of its saves; Hutchings's genestealer reserves finally arrived on Turn 5 and assaulted a Sister Squad with Uriah Jacobus in cover... and were wiped out).
Of course, given that the August issue mentioned Orks and the actual battle report is against Tyrannids... you'd think that they'd at least take a sentence or two to explain why they're doing a report with Tyrannids instead of Orks? A minor detail, but it would show some professionalism.
Edit - Has Cruddace finally introduced a method to make Eldar Warlocks suffer from "Perils of the Warp" tests via the Condemnor Boltgun?
Eumerin wrote:
Of course, given that the August issue mentioned Orks and the actual battle report is against Tyrannids... you'd think that they'd at least take a sentence or two to explain why they're doing a report with Tyrannids instead of Orks? A minor detail, but it would show some professionalism.
Edit - Has Cruddace finally introduced a method to make Eldar Warlocks suffer from "Perils of the Warp" tests via the Condemnor Boltgun?
There was a bit of an inconsistency in August's WD then, because I was just reading a bit of it today, and in the Sisters dex section of August's WD, they mentioned a battle against Nids, not Orks. I'm not disputing that the back inside cover said Orks, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading Nids at some point in August's WD today. I'll go double-check, since this is a forum and not a chatroom. ^_^
Yup, Page 103, under Saint Celestine's entry.
"Coming Next Month: Sisters of Battle Army List
Next month we present part 2 of the Codex, including everything needed to field the army. We also pitch the Adepta Sororitas against Hive Fleet Leviathan in a battle report."
Back inside cover says:
"Codex: Sisters of Battle Part 2
We present the final part of Codex: Sisters of Battle, including everything you need to field them on the war-ravaged battlefields of Warhammer 40,000. Codex author Robin Cruddace also puts the army through their paces as they try to liberate a shrine world from the clutches of the Orks."
Both quotes from August 2011's issue of White Dwarf.
n0t_u wrote:They're not perfect, the Heavy Bolter/Mulit-melta hybrid is kind of proof of the attention, or lack thereof, they put into things at times.
:: nods :: I prefer to think of it as hapless errors, personally. And I try really hard not to see it as a deliberate affront to the Sisters of Battle army, but I can't get those thoughts to shut up right now, especially when I remember that the background section totaled 4 pages, not counting individual entries for units and the page of army special rules. And two of those were half-pages, with the other half of each page taken up by a spread of a Battle Sisters army.
:: huggles an imaginary Seraphim plush and pets its head gently :: It's okay... It's all gonna be okay... The new dex will be okay... It'll be okay...
It's much harder right now to think, "Yay! New stuff!" because now that I have the WD dex in my possession, it's getting harder and harder as time goes on to see it as new stuff, and not rehashed old stuff. And I've had it for less than 6 hours. In the months or years between now and a proper book - hopefully - I wonder how I'll feel.
I'm sure GW had a reason for printing the WD dex, and it's harder for me to see the reason as being anything other than, "Well, we updated them to 5th edition. Job's a good un!" but I'm often VERY guilty of confirmation bias or whatever it's called where you get an idea in your head of the way things are, and your brain, trying to see its idea as right, remembers what confirms its idea and doesn't remember stuff that might counter it.
I'm now getting a sinking feeling at the thought of spending 400 dollars - taxes included in that - on the 25-30 miniatures I'd need to make my current SoB list without proxies. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend that much on that little, so I definitely see now how price really gets in the way. Cause for that price, I could get 4 maxed-out footslogging Boyz mobs with 8 Nobz left over.
Edit: Ahhh, re-wrote my 1500 point list a little. Without trying too hard to make it all fit, and using units I wanted to use, it came up to exactly 1500 points on the first draft. Best part? The list uses ENTIRELY models I already own, freeing my birthday and miniatures budget moneys for something else entirely. ^_^ Might still get a couple of Sisters minis - I'd love to get an Exorcist just for giggles, it's such a beautiful model.
Pray, pray hard, that we don't see a 6th edition in the next few years with a normal list of new edition codex releases. 'cause if it goes like normal it will take 6 years to get back to Sisters.
Mythal wrote:This is probably a silly question, but does anyone know if Battle Sisters squads in the new Codex have the option to take Immolators as a DT?
I believe they can. Under the Battle Sisters Squad entry, it says under Dedicated Transport options, "The squad can select any dedicated transport (see below)." And immediately beneath that is the Rhino entry and the Immolator entry, both in the Dedicated Transports section.
Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it, and can't embark until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.
Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.
Oh, you just made my day - thanks!
*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TLMM hulls*
I'm not buying these points cost rumours posted on the net. No one has even thought to scan an image of the WD issue front cover or something to give the claims some cred.
12 points per model for a basic sister? How can that be when so much has been taken away from them?!
It's pure heresy! (cup of irony, anyone?)
Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.
Oh, you just made my day - thanks!
*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TLMM hulls*
My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^
Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.
Cofessor Dallax wrote:I'm not buying these points cost rumours posted on the net. No one has even thought to scan an image of the WD issue front cover or something to give the claims some cred.
12 points per model for a basic sister? How can that be when so much has been taken away from them?!
It's pure heresy! (cup of irony, anyone?)
It's true.
Oh, and a 5-woman Retributor Squad with 4 heavy bolters and no squad leader upgrades costs about 30 points less than an unupgraded Sororitas Command Squad. ^_^ Which was very nice, because the price of their Heavy Bolters dropped to a fraction of their former price.
Meltaguns and Multi-Meltas cost the same price as each other in Battle Sisters Squads now. And you can take a heavy weapon and special weapon, or two special weapons, in Battle Sisters Squads.
Heavy flamers are obscenely expensive in points now, though. They cost 4x the cost of heavy bolters. Almost double what they used to be.
How do I take a screenshot with a webcam? It'd be easier than figuring out how to use the all-in-one printer I use exclusively for printing.
Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.
Oh, you just made my day - thanks!
*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TLMM hulls*
My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^
Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.
Just so I'm sure, there's nothing in the new Dex's Dedicated Transport section that says they can only be taken by squads that can fit in them?
Pouncey wrote:Admittedly, the Immolator only has a 6-model transport capacity, so at the least, you couldn't deploy your Battle Sisters squad inside it until they take at least 4 casualties, since the Battle Sisters squad starting strength is 10 women.
Oh, you just made my day - thanks!
*Starts point-statting up an infantry-blob SoB force that advances shielded by a vanguard of TLMM hulls*
My day was made about 20 minutes ago, when I took my mom's advice from before she went to bed about 7 hours ago, and re-wrote my list to use models that I already have. I came up with a list I like, and it won't cost me a dime. ^_^
Before that, my previous list would have cost me over 400 dollars once taxes were included.
Just so I'm sure, there's nothing in the Dedicated Transport section that says they can only be taken by squads that can fit in them?
Nothing in the WD dex, but I'll check the main rulebook to be sure.
Nope, nothing forbidding it that I can find. ^_^ I'll expect that particular issue to be a bone of contention and included in the FAQ, of course.
Edit: Just checked GWFAQs, and this is a quote from the SPACE MARINE FAQ:
"Q: Some Space Marine squads can take a Razorback as
a dedicated transport. A Razorback has a transport
capacity of six models. Can you still choose this as a
dedicated transport for a squad with more than six
models? (p77)
A: Yes."
So there's at least some precedence, but GW's not always consistent.
Pouncey wrote:I added a nice gem I found to that post in an edit. ^_^
Thanks for looking into that for me - given me a lot to think about!
Mmm, and don't forget that Battle Conclaves, Command Squads, Celestians, Dominions, and Retributors all have identical wording to Battle Sisters Squads in their Dedicated Transport options. ^_^
If ya got the points, that's a LOT of Immolators! Options to take an Immolator transport in literally every FOC slot.
The Decapitator wrote:With her points cost and Jacobus's rules, they are an almost certainty in most armies.
Agreed - the only reason I could think for someone passing up on Celestine would be to unlock a second Battle Conclave. Canonesses are pretty lacklustre by comparison, and their 'Command Squads', even if they come with 3 Multi-Meltas and FNP, aren't going to take the shine off a model that costs as little as Celestine for what she provides in bombastic, jump-pack driven CC death. Additionally, since her weapon doesn't use the Sniper or Poison descriptors, she'll be a great suicide-charge unit in Apocalypse against Gargantuan Creatures.
Pouncey wrote:If ya got the points, that's a LOT of Immolators! Options to take an Immolator transport in literally every FOC slot.
Indeed - enough Immolators to form a pretty hefty anti-tank/anti-heavy infantry shield wall obscuring advancing Sister/Battle Conclave blobs.
Mmhm. ^_^
Personally, I don't like fielding lots of vehicles. Mechanized lists don't work for me. I tried once, I wrote up a 2000 point mechanized Sisters list and an opposing 2000 point mechanized Space Marines list. I had to proxy about 8 Rhinos total using Chaos Rhinos, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Leman Russes, and any other vehicle of roughly the right size I could get my hands on from my own collection.
The movement phases went much quicker, but I just couldn't get into the game, probably since neither side had very many options for opening up transports at long range, so after turn 2, the game was basically, "Okay, let's just sit here in our transports contesting objectives from each other... You wanna disembark? Nah, I'm comfy. You? Nah, I'm comfy too."
On a side note, a cat just flew by my face and bumped into my forehead at high speed. Why are cats so crazy?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mythal wrote:
The Decapitator wrote:With her points cost and Jacobus's rules, they are an almost certainty in most armies.
Agreed - the only reason I could think for someone passing up on Celestine would be to unlock a second Battle Conclave. Canonesses are pretty lacklustre by comparison, and their 'Command Squads', even if they come with 3 Multi-Meltas and FNP, aren't going to take the shine off a model that costs as little as Celestine for what she provides in bombastic, jump-pack driven CC death. Additionally, since her weapon doesn't use the Sniper or Poison descriptors, she'll be a great suicide-charge unit in Apocalypse against Gargantuan Creatures.
Mmm, Celestine... She's only gotten better and cheaper. ^_^
I might re-write my list a bit, take out my 115pt Canoness and her 150pt Command Squad - despite my love of Sisters Hospitaller minis - and add in Celestine - replacing the Canoness - and a Confessor with a Battle Conclave - for the Death-Cult Assassins whos minis I also love... Saint Celestine's mini is also pretty nice. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Hey look, the night sky is turning a visible shade of blue!
Pouncey wrote:Mmm, Celestine... She's only gotten better and cheaper. ^_^
I might re-write my list a bit, take out my 115pt Canoness and her 150pt Command Squad - despite my love of Sisters Hospitaller minis - and add in Celestine - replacing the Canoness - and a Confessor with a Battle Conclave - for the Death-Cult Assassins whos minis I also love... Saint Celestine's mini is also pretty nice. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
She really is a gorgeous sculpt - one of GWs best, given her age. And she goes so well with Bretonnian pegasus wings.
My HQ choices are pretty much fixed as Uriah with 9 Death Cultists in a Rhino, and Celestine. I may blob her up with a squad of Seraphim (I just love Seraphim too much to ditch them completely, even though the new Dominions are great).
Pouncey wrote:Hey look, the night sky is turning a visible shade of blue!
There's always hope. I mean, I still feel that this Codex was pretty meh - and I'll be raging if we're still using it, with no new model releases, in three years time. But I'm pretty confident there are ways to make it work. And knowing you're playing with an underpowered Codex makes victory over the Big Boys that much sweeter.
Pouncey wrote:On a side note, a cat just flew by my face and bumped into my forehead at high speed. Why are cats so crazy?
Because their purpose is to remind us that, whatever we're doing, it's not as important as paying attention to them. Unless they want to be left alone, in which case you can do your silly 'internet' thing, human.
Gonzo_Neo wrote:Can we join Celestine to a Seraphim squad ( in 2nd part i readed that is not a IC ) or they are still " two units move together " ?
In the bestiary, she's listed as an Independent Character - whatever the second half omits - so she can be attached to any squad you like. Sadly, when she joins the Seraphim squad they lose Hit and Run - but, on the other hand, they were unlikely to make much use of it with I3 in any case. Even allowing for the brutally overpriced upgrades, Inferno Seraphim make a nice anti-MEQ squad, especially if they ride with Celestine. Hand Flamers with the Seraphim AoF are slightly preferable to Inferno Pistols against GEQ, but are less-than-worthless against MEQ.
Edit:
Gonzo_Neo wrote:Some news that prevent repentia mount in a rhino in 2nd part ?
If they can, i will try them in exchange of celestian.
There's no special rule stopping them from mounting up, but they can't take a Dedicated Transport of their own. It means that to get them into a Rhino, you have to take the Rhino as a Dedicated Transport for another unit, place it empty during deployment right next to your Repentia, hope the enemy doesn't put any scouting units within sight of the Repentia, then load them up during the first turn. If your Repentia can draw any LoS to an enemy unit, they won't be able to mount up, they'll have to move towards that enemy.
Gonzo_Neo wrote:Can we join Celestine to a Seraphim squad ( in 2nd part i readed that is not a IC ) or they are still " two units move together " ?
I think too that my 2 HQ choices would be Celestine and Uriah+9 cult+rhino.
Some news that prevent repentia mount in a rhino in 2nd part ?
If they can, i will try them in exchange of celestian.
The 1st part of the WD Codex has Celestine's entry as including the "Independent Character" special rule. Just show your opponent that. ^_^
Hm, I'm wondering if it would be worth it for my army to take out a Penitent Engine and add in 5 more Death Cult Assassins to give me something that might possibly be able to go up against my opponent's Honor Guard once it's been whittled down a way... It'd leave me with 8 more points to spend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gonzo_Neo wrote:Can we join Celestine to a Seraphim squad ( in 2nd part i readed that is not a IC ) or they are still " two units move together " ?
I think too that my 2 HQ choices would be Celestine and Uriah+9 cult+rhino.
Some news that prevent repentia mount in a rhino in 2nd part ?
If they can, i will try them in exchange of celestian.
And no, nothing prevents Repentia from riding in a Rhino. They have no dedicated transport option for their own squad, but nothing stops you from embarking in a transport during the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mythal wrote:
Pouncey wrote:Hey look, the night sky is turning a visible shade of blue!
There's always hope. I mean, I still feel that this Codex was pretty meh - and I'll be raging if we're still using it, with no new model releases, in three years time. But I'm pretty confident there are ways to make it work. And knowing you're playing with an underpowered Codex makes victory over the Big Boys that much sweeter.
Actually, I meant that literally. The sun is rising where I live. ^_^
Pouncey wrote:Hm, I'm wondering if it would be worth it for my army to take out a Penitent Engine and add in 5 more Death Cult Assassins to give me something that might possibly be able to go up against my opponent's Honor Guard once it's been whittled down a way... It'd leave me with 8 more points to spend.
I would certainly go with the DCAs over the Penitent Engine. Remember that with Uriah, 9 charging DCAs get 45 power weapon attacks at I6, S4 and WS5. They also have base 5++ and gain FNP from the Fat Man. And, unlike a PE, 5 DCAs can't be killed by a single power klaw attack.
Pouncey wrote:Actually, I meant that literally. The sun is rising where I live. ^_^
I posted this in my army thread, but thought that it applies here as well, so repost INC.
1500 Sisters of Battle
HQ
Cannoness - 90
Eviserator
Command Squad - 220
Multi Melta x 3, Hospitialer, Sister Dialogus
Immolator
Multi Melta
Troops
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Rhino
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Rhino
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Fast
Dominion x 5 - 170
Combi Melta, Melta Gun x 2, Melta Bomb
Immolator
Heavy Flamer
Dominion x 5 - 165
Combi Melta, Melta Gun x 2
Immolator
Heavy Flamer
Heavy
Exorcist - 135
Exorcist - 135
So, I had my first Sisters game out of the new codex, and a 2 to 1 objective victory at that! I played this list at 1500 and I played against IG with 4 objectives, table quarters.He got in a nice good side with cover way away from me and got first turn (which I successfully rolled a 6 stole the initiative! His list was 3 Chimeras (2 vet squads 1 HQ squad), 2 Blobbed infantry squads /w auto cannon, 2 Leman Russ 1 normal 1 executioner, 2 Hellhounds 1 Valkyrie, I'm sure I'm leaving something else out as well.
My two Melta Dominion squads were the star of the game, they outflanked in my opponent's back field w/scouts, and never stopped killing, and even with a ton of shots poured at them, managed to live, each squad killed 2 tanks each for a total of 4, and my Immolators killed 2 squads each. Dominions are worth every point of their cost, and run well in 5 man squads with 2 special 1 combi, esp if twin linked act of faith is successful.
Faith isn't important anymore, not at all, most of the time the most the army will ever use is 3 in any given turn but most turns will see only 1 or 2. It's a 50/50 shot it either happens or it doesn't, and it's not a huge loss if it doesn't go off. This makes all of the weargear buffing faith, pretty useless. esp for a 20 point upgrade.
FNP is not nearly as good for T3 as it is for T4, there's a ton of STR double toughness stuff (str 6 in my case) in almost every codex and that's when FNP can be used the most effectively, but most blast/template weapons are above str 6 or equal and Inferno cannons/grey knight flamers ignore it as well.
The army doesn't feel as durable with the loss of 3+ invuls and stubborn army wide, but plays very much the same, my opponent felt like he was playing against the same army with flamers,melta and a 3+ save, and I felt like I was playing the same army, but only a bit different. Faith is much much friendlier and easy to grasp, esp to people that don't play the army. Previous faith was very confusing to people that didn't play Sisters, which is pretty much everyone except for me where I am. So now it's obvious what squads can use what power, exactly how many faith points can be spent each turn and it's easy to tell if faith goes off and when it doesn't, no more over squad size under squad size guessing.
In closing, I still feel a bit jaded that the Sisters points are priced a little higher than they should and I'm feeling very uneasy with the new codex but all and all, I'm feeling much more optimistic with a win under my belt vs a good IG player and I'm not feeling like the end of the world is nigh, well not as much. So cheer up friends, it's not all that bad, it really isn't, really! =)
Well that looks like a rather large cock up, splitting the codex in 2 and 'changing' which special rules characters have. I was slightly annoyed that looking at part 2 she was not an IC, but I thought there had to be a catch for her being so cheap. But she clearly is an IC according to part 1, so for the time being I'm a happy bunny!
However I have the feeling that this will be FAQ'd, as i think its part 2 which is correct. Also fluff wise it doesn't really make sense for her to join units.
The Decapitator wrote:Well that looks like a rather large cock up, splitting the codex in 2 and 'changing' which special rules characters have. I was slightly annoyed that looking at part 2 she was not an IC, but I thought there had to be a catch for her being so cheap. But she clearly is an IC according to part 1, so for the time being I'm a happy bunny!
However I have the feeling that this will be FAQ'd, as i think its part 2 which is correct. Also fluff wise it doesn't really make sense for her to join units.
Catch the part where Acro's are str 5 in the second part, and str 4 in the first? lolol. Sure, I'll take some str 5 acros!
Pouncey wrote:Hm, I'm wondering if it would be worth it for my army to take out a Penitent Engine and add in 5 more Death Cult Assassins to give me something that might possibly be able to go up against my opponent's Honor Guard once it's been whittled down a way... It'd leave me with 8 more points to spend.
I would certainly go with the DCAs over the Penitent Engine. Remember that with Uriah, 9 charging DCAs get 45 power weapon attacks at I6, S4 and WS5. They also have base 5++ and gain FNP from the Fat Man. And, unlike a PE, 5 DCAs can't be killed by a single power klaw attack.
Pouncey wrote:Actually, I meant that literally. The sun is rising where I live. ^_^
Heh - t'was still a good metaphor
Uriah, eh?
To add to that, they also get re-rolls to hit when they charge, because of the Righteous Rage rule for Confessors - including Uriah but not sure about Kyrinov. ^_^ Should make mincemeat out of em, assuming I get the charge.
Yeah, I think I'll go with that. It'll mean I'll have to get more DCAs than I initially intended, plus Uriah, and I'll probably have to cut a Seraphim model from my list to pay for Uriah over a generic Confessor, but I do agree that it's worth it. The additional 20-25 attacks I get from the 5 additional DCAs might not be S10, but since my opponent doesn't field vehicles - and the only vehicle in my list is a single Penitent Engine, used to be 2.
Plus, I do enjoy the DCA minis. ^_^
Yeah, sometimes things work right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kreedos wrote:
The Decapitator wrote:Well that looks like a rather large cock up, splitting the codex in 2 and 'changing' which special rules characters have. I was slightly annoyed that looking at part 2 she was not an IC, but I thought there had to be a catch for her being so cheap. But she clearly is an IC according to part 1, so for the time being I'm a happy bunny!
However I have the feeling that this will be FAQ'd, as i think its part 2 which is correct. Also fluff wise it doesn't really make sense for her to join units.
Catch the part where Acro's are str 5 in the second part, and str 4 in the first? lolol. Sure, I'll take some str 5 acros!
In fairness, it might not be totally contradictory. Where it lists Saint Celestine's unit type, it says, "Jump Infantry (character)".
The Jacobs death cult is an amazingly good unit and it's not overpriced, talking 275 for a squad of 10 deathcult/crusaders + Jacobs in a Rhino
That's pretty much the same price as a kitted out Cannoness with command squad in a rhino.
Only difference is preference really I don't try and hybridize my army, so I have no CC element, thus I prefer the cannoness with her shooty squad.
Oh, and about Celestine, she may be cheap and tempting, but without a Seraphim squad to support her, she's dead weight with a 4+ invul and no eternal warrior, 1 str 6 or higher shot is going to take all those wounds off, and that is very very easy to do.
Kreedos wrote:The Jacobs death cult is an amazingly good unit and it's not overpriced, talking 275 for a squad of 10 deathcult/crusaders + Jacobs in a Rhino
That's pretty much the same price as a kitted out Cannoness with command squad in a rhino.
Only difference is preference really I don't try and hybridize my army, so I have no CC element, thus I prefer the cannoness with her shooty squad.
:: nods :: It's a personal preference for both sides. ^_^
Edit: And I do indeed have a unit of Seraphim in my list to support her. ^_^
Kreedos wrote:The Jacobs death cult is an amazingly good unit and it's not overpriced, talking 275 for a squad of 10 deathcult/crusaders + Jacobs in a Rhino
That's pretty much the same price as a kitted out Cannoness with command squad in a rhino.
Only difference is preference really I don't try and hybridize my army, so I have no CC element, thus I prefer the cannoness with her shooty squad.
Oh, and about Celestine, she may be cheap and tempting, but without a Seraphim squad to support her, she's dead weight with a 4+ invul and no eternal warrior, 1 str 6 or higher shot is going to take all those wounds off, and that is very very easy to do.
I would definitely only take Celestine with Seraphim to back her up - but I've fielded Seraphim since 2nd Edition and never regretted it
Regarding Uriah, it is definitely a personal preference thing - I can completely understand a purely-shooty army bypassing him and his death squad. But since my force is built around being fluffy, I'm just going to field him as an Imhava Ayatani backed up by a Death Cult devoted to Saint Sabbat - one assassin for every holy wound. My local meta is very hybridised, and having that sort of counter-assault unit sat behind vulnerable BSS objective-holders will help deter even the toughest dedicated assault units.
Kreedos wrote:I posted this in my army thread, but thought that it applies here as well, so repost INC.
Spoiler:
1500 Sisters of Battle
HQ
Cannoness - 90
Eviserator
Command Squad - 220
Multi Melta x 3, Hospitialer, Sister Dialogus
Immolator
Multi Melta
Troops
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Rhino
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Rhino
Sister of Battle x 10 - 195
Combi Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Flamer
Fast
Dominion x 5 - 170
Combi Melta, Melta Gun x 2, Melta Bomb
Immolator
Heavy Flamer
Dominion x 5 - 165
Combi Melta, Melta Gun x 2
Immolator
Heavy Flamer
Heavy
Exorcist - 135
Exorcist - 135
So, I had my first Sisters game out of the new codex, and a 2 to 1 objective victory at that! I played this list at 1500 and I played against IG with 4 objectives, table quarters.He got in a nice good side with cover way away from me and got first turn (which I successfully rolled a 6 stole the initiative! His list was 3 Chimeras (2 vet squads 1 HQ squad), 2 Blobbed infantry squads /w auto cannon, 2 Leman Russ 1 normal 1 executioner, 2 Hellhounds 1 Valkyrie, I'm sure I'm leaving something else out as well.
My two Melta Dominion squads were the star of the game, they outflanked in my opponent's back field w/scouts, and never stopped killing, and even with a ton of shots poured at them, managed to live, each squad killed 2 tanks each for a total of 4, and my Immolators killed 2 squads each. Dominions are worth every point of their cost, and run well in 5 man squads with 2 special 1 combi, esp if twin linked act of faith is successful.
Faith isn't important anymore, not at all, most of the time the most the army will ever use is 3 in any given turn but most turns will see only 1 or 2. It's a 50/50 shot it either happens or it doesn't, and it's not a huge loss if it doesn't go off. This makes all of the weargear buffing faith, pretty useless. esp for a 20 point upgrade.
FNP is not nearly as good for T3 as it is for T4, there's a ton of STR double toughness stuff (str 6 in my case) in almost every codex and that's when FNP can be used the most effectively, but most blast/template weapons are above str 6 or equal and Inferno cannons/grey knight flamers ignore it as well.
The army doesn't feel as durable with the loss of 3+ invuls and stubborn army wide, but plays very much the same, my opponent felt like he was playing against the same army with flamers,melta and a 3+ save, and I felt like I was playing the same army, but only a bit different. Faith is much much friendlier and easy to grasp, esp to people that don't play the army. Previous faith was very confusing to people that didn't play Sisters, which is pretty much everyone except for me where I am. So now it's obvious what squads can use what power, exactly how many faith points can be spent each turn and it's easy to tell if faith goes off and when it doesn't, no more over squad size under squad size guessing.
In closing, I still feel a bit jaded that the Sisters points are priced a little higher than they should and I'm feeling very uneasy with the new codex but all and all, I'm feeling much more optimistic with a win under my belt vs a good IG player and I'm not feeling like the end of the world is nigh, well not as much. So cheer up friends, it's not all that bad, it really isn't, really! =)
Nifty stuff! Great to hear we're not completely underpowered! : D
Nifty stuff! Great to hear we're not completely underpowered! : D
Thanks, I don't believe we're underpowered, just a bit different. Now I'm trying to decide if heavy flamers are really worth the 15 points over taking just 2 flamers per squad. Honestly with 3 flamers in a squad, does it really matter if one is heavy? esp when you save 60 points over 4 squads with just 2 flamers 1 combi flamer per squad, I dunno... I just dont know.
Nifty stuff! Great to hear we're not completely underpowered! : D
Thanks, I don't believe we're underpowered, just a bit different. Now I'm trying to decide if heavy flamers are really worth the 15 points over taking just 2 flamers per squad. Honestly with 3 flamers in a squad, does it really matter if one is heavy? esp when you save 60 points over 4 squads with just 2 flamers 1 combi flamer per squad, I dunno... I just dont know.
I dunno if the +1S and -1AP is worth 15 points either. I took a couple in my list, just because I got the minis for my birthday a couple of days ago and wanted to use em. ^_^
Those 60 points could buy several Seraphim... Or an equivalent number of Crusaders or DCAs, or some more Retributors or Dominions for ablative Wounds. Or some pistols for the Seraphim if you already have some.
algesan wrote:Fault trail: A. Codex Writer(s), B. Codex Editor/Reviewer(s) (if any), C. Codex Playtester(s) (if any), D. Game Development Supervisor checking with the 40K design plan (if any), E. GW Management providing oversight.
Since there appears to be exactly zero evidence that B., C. or D. exist, then it falls squarely on the one paying A. for their work. In other words E.
You forgot F, the people who pay E, otherwise known as plasticrack addicts and/or apologists.
algesan wrote:Fault trail: A. Codex Writer(s), B. Codex Editor/Reviewer(s) (if any), C. Codex Playtester(s) (if any), D. Game Development Supervisor checking with the 40K design plan (if any), E. GW Management providing oversight.
Since there appears to be exactly zero evidence that B., C. or D. exist, then it falls squarely on the one paying A. for their work. In other words E.
You forgot F, the people who pay E, otherwise known as plasticrack addicts and/or apologists.
You'll never take my plastic, metal, and/or resin crack from me!!!! NEVEEEER!!!!
:: murrs at only having to spend 180 bucks plus tax for 11 metal infantry minis and 1 metal/plastic tank ::
Damn, I'd bed a Death-Cult Assassin, even if she had to kill me afterward for being a heretic.
When I see the SoB "codex" I try and look at in the context of GW's game designers and how they've gone about rewriting the codices. I think there are strong parallels between this and C:Chaos Renegades... both are incomplete works but give us a glimpse into these writers methodology. With these reworks, they start by taking it to the basics of the army and then they build upon it. This WD codex is the very basics of SoB as the writer sees it. Put that side by side with the Blood Angels Codex and Blood Angels WD codex... as drastic the changes that occurred there will happen with SoB; you will see new units and you will see units tweaked. Just imagine taking a book like the IG codex and reverting it to its primordial state; you'd have something as disappointing as this with few exceptions. Almost everything worthwhile about the IG was "new" and without which would look as basic as this.
It really will be the new additions that make this codex work. With this everyone is talking about Immolator spamming, but when a book gets released there will most certainly be other options beyond what there and those are likely to change sentiments over these spam-in-a-can lists.
Eumerin wrote:And finally, GW should have told us why they felt it necessary to implement this sudden update with Sisters. The lack of information coupled with the blatant lack of interest that GW has in selling Sisters figures (i.e. the extra work involved in trying to buy the models) is merely making things worse. What's the worst that can happen if GW were to tell us - the players might complain? I think that's already happening...
For all GW's faults I think this is the least forgivable. They got to where they were because they were accessible and communicated very well and have since shunned that to the point that they carry a condescending attitude that we should accept all their actions as sacrosanct.
I found the fact Sisters won the battle report amusing, I mean how could they possibly lose as its in White Dwarf. They are the featured force along side ogres, loss not allowed!
I was hoping for a little more changes wise, especially with regards to points values!
I found the fact Sisters won the battle report amusing, I mean how could they possibly lose as its in White Dwarf. They are the featured force along side ogres, loss not allowed!
I was hoping for a little more changes wise, especially with regards to points values!
If you read the report, note how many times they mention that the Sisters got lucky, were fortunate, or that the tyranid player's dice turned on him or got unlucky or 'fell for the trap'... etc. Yeah, my thought is that the Sisters got their asses kicked and they just re-did each action in favor of the Sisters.
I was making lists last night and I'm having trouble coming up with something that doesn't include Uriah Jacobus or Celestine... *edit*... I meant as in "doesn't include them because they're prob the best thing about the codex, aside from free 6++ on vehicles and the excorsists (of course, but they were good before).
Yeah I noticed that lol. I also took a peek at the Ogres report and alot of luck was mentioned in that also (although alot of it on the Tomb King side) I reckon that one was edited aswell!
Celestine for me is a must have anyway, because shes just lovely! I like the model, I like the theme! and now I like the cost!
Not so sure about mr Jacobus, I glossed over his entry lol
Roll 2d6 for Faith each turn while he is alive.
+1 Attack, Stubborn (ld10) and FNP for the unit he is with.
Throw him in with some DCA/Crusaders:
DCA have 4 attacks base (2 +1 for 2W +1 for Uriah) at I6, 5++ and FNP.
Crusaders have 2 Attacks base (1 +1 for Uriah) at I3, 3++ and FNP.
They reroll all misses on the charge as well.
I will have to add him to my list of purchases! (along with having a good peek at his model/entry in the WD!!)
I am also SO glad that Rhino's finally cost the same as everyone elses. Also ours get 6+ invun ontop of that!
I like some aspects of this WD codex, others not so keen on. My least favorite is the cost of Heavy Flamers and was hoping for a 1-2 point reduction on basic sisters.
Oh my goodness...
WD September issue
Page 90-
Dominions - "For every five models in the squad, up to two Dominions may replace their boltgun with one of the following [Storm bolter, flamer, melta]
Page 96 - A photo of the sisters army for the battle report, looking distinctly like it has 5 Dominions armed with 4 flamers... WTF looks like the designers aren't even playing by their own rules these days lol
In all seriousness, this frequently happens in WD battle reports. The battle reports are generally fought and documented well before the WD is released. This leads to previous versions of rules and armies being seen in the BRs and also leads to rules interpretations that are later changed by the time the real thing hits the shelves.
There are countless examples of this over the last 20 years.
Cofessor Dallax wrote:Oh my goodness...
WD September issue
Page 90-
Dominions - "For every five models in the squad, up to two Dominions may replace their boltgun with one of the following [Storm bolter, flamer, melta]
Page 96 - A photo of the sisters army for the battle report, looking distinctly like it has 5 Dominions armed with 4 flamers... WTF looks like the designers aren't even playing by their own rules these days lol
IIRC the photo of the Dominions going up against the big Tyranid monster-beastie shows six Sisters in the photo, suggesting that Cruddace went with the "proper" option of a 10 Dominion squad in order to get more than two heavy flamers. Unfortunately, I don't have my magazine handy (I'm at work now...), so I can't double-check that.
Of course, this question could have been resolved if Cruddace and Hutchings had just done the simple task of printing their force lists. The Battle Report as written is largely useless because it contains very little in the way of details. We have basic ideas on how stuff happened, but not enough to know WHY things happened the way that they did. A handful of notable events are recorded, but that's essentially that.
I, for one, would be quite curious to know the details regarding how one of the squads (with Jacobus) managed to beat genestealers in an assault...
Eumerin wrote:I, for one, would be quite curious to know the details regarding how one of the squads (with Jacobus) managed to beat genestealers in an assault...
That's easy.
Genestealers assaulted into cover, so swing last.
Uriah gives +1 attack and FNP to the unit.
Above average rolling will have those stealers taking a lot of wounds and potentially losing the combat (especially with no or few rends). A low I roll on the sweep check sees them wiped out.
It isn't the most common outcome of that scenario, but is certainly well within the realm of possibility.
n0t_u wrote:Seems odd you'd be able to spam Immolators more with the update. But as I'm running a mech force anyway it's a good thing.
You mean you find it odd GW would let you spam a heavily nerfed vehicle?
No, I would have though Repressors or something then go with the convenient line of "Hey guys guess what you can make with the Immolator sprue" or "[Playername] could usually pick this up from forgeworld, but thanks to the great detail put into the Immolator kit he was able to build his Repressors for a steal". Cause it already seemed like Immolators are everywhere.
pretre wrote:Roll 2d6 for Faith each turn while he is alive.
Not quite - you get a Faith Reroll while he's alive, and you have to accept the second result even if it's worse (in line with the BRB). But he's still an awesome unit. The fact I'll be telegraphing the assault doesn't worry me much - I'll mainly use him and his DCA swirly-death-death Conclave as a counter-assault squad to protect objective-holding troops.
The Grog wrote:Remember that SoB have no assault vehicles, so you will be telegraphing your DCA assault terribly.
Or counter-charging. Yes, chances of that unit actually getting off an assault? Low.
Mine got two charges off in my victory the other day. Killing two tac squads. Sure you can't point and click them like with marines in land raiders but you just have to put more thought into your game. Perhaps my eldar banshees have just given me enough experience with it that I don't view it as such a negative. Also I highly recommend avoiding the 9 DC unit in favor or putting in some crusaders. 9 DC kill an entire squad of marines twice over in the first round of combat on average. Cutting that down to just killing the squad but vastly increasing its survivability with stormshields is a much better option especially since if by poor dice you don't kill the 10 man unit you have the crusaders power weapons as well.
Eumerin wrote:I, for one, would be quite curious to know the details regarding how one of the squads (with Jacobus) managed to beat genestealers in an assault...
That's easy.
Genestealers assaulted into cover, so swing last.
Uriah gives +1 attack and FNP to the unit.
That's the biggest killer right there. :-\ I try to avoid reading WD bat reps. While they're occasionally enjoyable the majority of the time they're full of list errors, rules errors and just the general feeling that one side is throwing the game.
Guess I should start finding a fem model for a counts-as Jacobus. Hate the existing model. I also dumped a crapton of money into Escher for allied guard since I wanted an all female force, not about to start changing that up now.
Thought about it, but with how many I have I'd rather just go with turning them into IG. I already have 9 sentinels and 9 Leman Russ Battle Tanks from when Apoc came out and they were selling entire battle formations! XD
Eumerin wrote:I, for one, would be quite curious to know the details regarding how one of the squads (with Jacobus) managed to beat genestealers in an assault...
That's easy.
Genestealers assaulted into cover, so swing last.
Uriah gives +1 attack and FNP to the unit.
Above average rolling will have those stealers taking a lot of wounds and potentially losing the combat (especially with no or few rends). A low I roll on the sweep check sees them wiped out.
It isn't the most common outcome of that scenario, but is certainly well within the realm of possibility.
But see - it's not your job to explain how it came about (and ultimately, you're just guessing the most likely outcome - it's entirely possible, however unlikely, that Cruddace made every single one of this 6++ saves in this combat on the first attempt). Its the responsibility of Cruddace and Hutchings to explain it. That's what makes a Battle Report an actual Battle Report instead of a poorly written fairy tale with pictures. Even if they have to reroll everything ten times in order to get the "proper" result (and of course neglect to mention that little fact in the write-up), at least we can sit down and parse through exactly what happened.
That's the biggest killer right there. :-\ I try to avoid reading WD bat reps. While they're occasionally enjoyable the majority of the time they're full of list errors, rules errors and just the general feeling that one side is throwing the game.
In fairness, the genestealers were a reserve unit that didn't arrive until Turn 5, and they were assaulting a squad that was sitting on top of an objective. So the assault made sense even with the drawbacks - it was essentially a last-minute desperation maneuver. It's just the utter and complete lack of details that I find frustrating.
Eumerin wrote:
But see - it's not your job to explain how it came about (and ultimately, you're just guessing the most likely outcome - it's entirely possible, however unlikely, that Cruddace made every single one of this 6++ saves in this combat on the first attempt). Its the responsibility of Cruddace and Hutchings to explain it. That's what makes a Battle Report an actual Battle Report instead of a poorly written fairy tale with pictures. Even if they have to reroll everything ten times in order to get the "proper" result (and of course neglect to mention that little fact in the write-up), at least we can sit down and parse through exactly what happened.
You seem to have a misunderstanding as to what White Dwarf actually is and what the battle reports in it are for.
The only time I've ever seen the new army of the month NOT win was Tyranids. That was the same month as the Legion of the Damned models came out, so the Space Marines managed a tie against them. I think that's very telling of Tyranids though, and the typical "one of everything" list that WD usually has.
Vampires didn't win their intro battle as well. The guy playing Vampires didn't cast their signature spell (the one that raises more models) once the entire game. He also used a special ability, a movement spell and a full march to tarpit one of his units first turn into an unbreakable unit. It was absolutely ridiculous.
Eumerin wrote:I, for one, would be quite curious to know the details regarding how one of the squads (with Jacobus) managed to beat genestealers in an assault...
That's easy.
Genestealers assaulted into cover, so swing last.
Uriah gives +1 attack and FNP to the unit.
Above average rolling will have those stealers taking a lot of wounds and potentially losing the combat (especially with no or few rends). A low I roll on the sweep check sees them wiped out.
It isn't the most common outcome of that scenario, but is certainly well within the realm of possibility.
Or if the stealers happened to be within range of synapse, then you have to take into effect fearless wounds for losing an assualt -- 5+ saves doesn't get you very far. With the loss of frags, massive rending nerf, no 4+ armour, and fearless saves, it isn't uncommon for stealers to suffer large casualties in CC, especially if your dice fail.
This is why casting catalyste (FNP) on stealer blobs is such a premium option for nid players (and why Tervigons become such a priority to kill for the opponent).
It's hard to do that playing Sisters given how much they're mistreated (in the lore, in models, in pricing, in update times, etc). Thankfully that's not all I play, but still. This WD update is closer to them taking a dump on a plate and saying it's a gourmet specialty than the appetizer it should have been for the forthcoming REAL codex.
Cofessor Dallax wrote:Oh my goodness...
WD September issue
Page 90-
Dominions - "For every five models in the squad, up to two Dominions may replace their boltgun with one of the following [Storm bolter, flamer, melta]
Page 96 - A photo of the sisters army for the battle report, looking distinctly like it has 5 Dominions armed with 4 flamers... WTF looks like the designers aren't even playing by their own rules these days lol
IIRC the photo of the Dominions going up against the big Tyranid monster-beastie shows six Sisters in the photo, suggesting that Cruddace went with the "proper" option of a 10 Dominion squad in order to get more than two heavy flamers. Unfortunately, I don't have my magazine handy (I'm at work now...), so I can't double-check that.
...Correct, there's six sisters, but it's a canoness who makes up the sixth sister, so it still looks like the writer of the list is breaking his own rules to me...
Beyond the initial negative reaction, all the nerfings, the fact that it's now a lot less of a competitive army... I don't think I will mind playing this list in the long run... Will try to make more use of priests and enclaves, seraphim, repentia than I did previously. Plus will have to get over the fact that I'll be using named characters all the time for points reasons (115 Celestine? Holy cow that's random)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:OMG WTF BBQ!
In all seriousness, this frequently happens in WD battle reports. The battle reports are generally fought and documented well before the WD is released. This leads to previous versions of rules and armies being seen in the BRs and also leads to rules interpretations that are later changed by the time the real thing hits the shelves.
There are countless examples of this over the last 20 years.
Fair play Must say that these are the first two copies of WD I've bought in the last err... Wow about 10 years now. I always found it a bit like paying money for a sales pamphlet myself and a bit childish (not wanting to cause offense to any avid readers, personal opinion)
Brother SRM wrote:The only time I've ever seen the new army of the month NOT win was Tyranids. That was the same month as the Legion of the Damned models came out, so the Space Marines managed a tie against them. I think that's very telling of Tyranids though, and the typical "one of everything" list that WD usually has.
6th edition Dark Elves lost. That was the Dark Elf army book that was so bad that it had to have an Errata released reducing the cost of Warriors - yes, GW released an FAQ/Errata that reduced the cost on the basic troop model for the army list.
In comparison, the battle report using the 7th edition Dark Elf list used the wrong rules for the War Hydra.
Melissia wrote:And this is why the accusation of sexism alwys pops up concerning GW's treatment of Sisters.
In the grim darkness of the far future, gaks still pretty sexist. I'm amazed they so deftly avoid mentioning things like institutionalized racism which would logically have to exist in side the fluff coinciding with "anti mutant" stances.
If somebody wanted to use the 3rd ed codex in a casual game instead of the current one, I sure wouldn't stop them. If your gaming group isn't full of sticklers it shouldn't be a problem. Hell, there was a guy in my old gaming group who still plays using the Lost and the Damned list. Fun guy.
