I don't like how they got rid of the inquisitorial stormtroopers as a troop choice, because I liked the fact that you could make an inquision strike force with an inquisitor lord, a few stormtrooper squads, and maybe one or two elite or fast attack SoB units (like arco flagellants) to augment the force.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now ill have to buy more battle sisters to make up for the stormtroopers I'm losing...
Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.
I expect we will see pictures and more info in the next 48 hours if they really have the WD in France. I'm playing a game thursday and hoped to use my Sisters in a last hurraw. Now I want points so I can try out the new codex!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nocturn wrote:I don't like how they got rid of the inquisitorial stormtroopers as a troop choice, because I liked the fact that you could make an inquision strike force with an inquisitor lord, a few stormtrooper squads, and maybe one or two elite or fast attack SoB units (like arco flagellants) to augment the force.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now ill have to buy more battle sisters to make up for the stormtroopers I'm losing...
I'm pretty sure the Inquisition is gone. The Church is the new theme. Rumours on that french site are listing Arbites as troops in the full codex (page 1). They also have a Redemtionist entry. I would be happy with those three as troop chioces.
Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.
50 point Rhinos are not over costed at all. In 4th they were, sure.
If anything, imperial vehicles are under costed under the 5th ed. vehicle rules.
I'm pretty sure these rumors are false, not cause that sisters are 12 points but if these rumors are true can you actually believe that saint celestine is 120 points and the rest of the characters are less then 100 points?
Necrosis wrote:I'm pretty sure these rumors are false, not cause that sisters are 12 points but if these rumors are true can you actually believe that saint celestine is 120 points and the rest of the characters are less then 100 points?
I agree. It wouldn't really make sense for Celestine to be only 120 points and have standard Sisters even MORE expensive.
I sure hope this is false, the information doesn't seem very structured or very in depth. Kind of like someone who doesn't play sisters heard it from their friend and might have said what he thinks is expensive or cheap without actual experience with the old army.
Initial rumors were Saint Celestine would cost the same as a Grand Master. I find it hard to believe she would cost 120 points.
Boosting the Battle Sisters to 12 points a pop hurts. I too was hoping a point reduction cost or stay the same. There's no transparency between the players and GW management. Cruddace is now on my top least favorite codex writer.
Sersi wrote:He left out that according to the source Seraphim can only double tap with bolt pistols, not hand flamers or inferno pistols.
Cheer up though guys... remember for 12 pts a sister you get grenades, a 6+ invulnerable save and a pistol!
Oh and no free weapon upgrades for you. Genius!
If inferno pistols were supposed to both cost more than a power fist, and only be able to be fired once, AT THE SAME TIME that would be ridiculous. Either one of those rumors completely trashes the unit by itself.
ph34r wrote:If inferno pistols were supposed to both cost more than a power fist, and only be able to be fired once, AT THE SAME TIME that would be ridiculous. Either one of those rumors completely trashes the unit by itself.
Oh don't I know it. We'll know soon enough I suppose. But did anyone REALLY expect points costs to save this thing?
Now...if you'll excuse me I have to get to work on my Blood Angels...er....Sisters of Blood order.
Hey Sanguinius is just some blonde chick anyway, so its fluffy!
I don't think the infernus pistols will cost that much, they may cost that much for a pair. Since they cost 10 in the Blood angels codex, I can see 25 for a twin-linked or double tapping pair.
Sisters costing 12 makes sense.
Space marines used to cost 15, now they cost 16 but they got pistol, frag and krak grenades. That's 4 pts worth of equipment for one point. Plus a Rhino drop.
Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.
If you think their point costs are going to be less than guard, you're going to be disappointed.
To those who say we don't have the full picture, we kinda do. It's essentially the witchhunter's codex version of sisters of battle with all their teeth pulled out.
Everything is normalized and standardized...that it doesn't work is obvious...it hasn't been tested or worked with at all. It's just basic units broken down into their basic components. People hoping for exorcists in vehicle squadrons or extreme point differences are gong to be disappointed. Ditto for the wargear section. If you're expecting unusual or test type gear, well...it's not happening.
Basically if you want to do mech melta, pick up the grey knights codex and make a henchman army.
Can I say I told you so now? Hey, all those guys that said wait for the 2nd part: I TOLD YOU SO!
Oh, and this:
I can't possibly see how large sister squads would work. Unlike space marines or IG blolb squads, they can be sweeping advanced. It's the necron problem all over again except they're toughness 3 instead of 4.
For rhino builds, you'll drive up, disembark, shoot once, then die horribly. None of their units can hold up in hth to anything anymore. At least in the Whunter's codex it took a while to die. Now...you'll lose combat by a bunch, fail your leadership, then get sweeping advanced. On top, the army is short ranged, so you have no choice but to get close...but unlike guard they don't put out enough firepower.
Celtic Strike wrote:Space marines used to cost 15, now they cost 16 but they got pistol, frag and krak grenades. That's 4 pts worth of equipment for one point. Plus a Rhino drop.
Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.
It's equipment the Sisters don't want. The only time you'd ever use a bolt pistol or a frag grenade is if you're charging someone, which means sacrificing BS4, S4, always hits first attacks for WS3, S3, I3 attacks.
And you forgot the trade for the new, one trick pony Acts of Faith.
Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.
Trading the old 3++ or even 2++ trade for a 6++ save? Yikes! I hope you don't gamble regularly.
IMO, I couldn't care less about Inferus Pistols. Sisters of Battle is dominantly a close range shooting army. As long as Flamers and Meltaguns haven't gone up in points costs (and Dominion Meltaguns cost like the rest), I'm content.
Thanks sabrx I hope you don't try to keep friends regularly.
If anyone thought that the old Faith system was staying I don't know what to tell them. Maybe give them pills or something.
I think we all knew that it was going away. A few of us are actually pleasantly surprised that its not going away completely. I was afraid of losing them all forever but I'm glad GW kept them in some way. I think the squad based Acts of Faith make sense in the GW design philosophy and goes in line with the Grey Knights squad physic powers. Its also much less book keeping and explaining to your opponent as most of them have no idea and call BS on acts of faith.
This is a system everyone will be more familiar with/ less annoying to be around.
The Acts of Faith WERE ALWAYS GOING TO CHANGE!
They're giving all the squads a 6+ save as a way to make up for getting rid of the hard to get off in a clutch Invulnerable save and trying to at least stop some fan boys from complaining. (That will never happen, its all we can do)
Plus making it an actual Infernus pistol will automatically up the strength of our jump infantry as its now AP1 instead of AP2 (For no reason) In my mind they have always been for close range fire support rather than for assaulting, hence the hit and run - which they're keeping. I've been using them for their pistols ever since I started playing them. Also, if the rumors are to be believed, they're dropping drastically in points. Possibly 18 or so. Thats a big boon. Upping the cost of their pistol, giving them twin-linked or double tap and making them AP1 is okay. Dependant on the new cost of course.
Am I happy that this isn't a Full and real codex. Of course not. I have 2000 pts of the girls that I'm going to have to tweak. But they weren't in need of a huge update and I'm confident that we'll get an early 6th ed codex that will be fun. (I'm still sure people are going to complain anyway. People hate change. Change ALWAYS means its worse to people.)
I know trying to be a moderate voice of reason and caution on a message board isn't going to work but I'm going to keep trying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlexHolker wrote:
Celtic Strike wrote:Space marines used to cost 15, now they cost 16 but they got pistol, frag and krak grenades. That's 4 pts worth of equipment for one point. Plus a Rhino drop.
Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.
It's equipment the Sisters don't want. The only time you'd ever use a bolt pistol or a frag grenade is if you're charging someone, which means sacrificing BS4, S4, always hits first attacks for WS3, S3, I3 attacks.
And you forgot the trade for the new, one trick pony Acts of Faith.
True, but its equipment EVERYONE has been getting. Ever since 5th came out, imperial forces have been given grenades as standard. Did people bitch when Wolves and Blood angels got grenades? (True they are more capable in assault than the girls) But It gives the girls a little bit more options against vehicles if our meltas fail for some reason. Its better to have them than not. Having frag grenades doesn't force people to charge. I don't think it'll ever be a strategy I'll employ regularly but at least its there and it does bring them in line with 5th. Everyone has those grenades and most have a pistol now. I'd be shocked if they didn't get them. I'm a little bit surprised the cost went up but I can see the logic behind it.
I also don't think anyone said that they were going to be cheaper than Guard. Anyone who did is clearly delusional and doesn't know how things work. They have better stats and equipment than a guardsman, how would they be cheaper? Disregard them completely. Also, we were never going to get Exorists in squadrons. That's a dream as well. That was a gift GW gave to guard as a way of saying; "Hey you know all those tanks that you're probably NOT going to use anymore because we made other choices way more competitive? Please take a tonne of them!1!11!"
Oh, and if you want to do pure mech melta pick up Guard veterans. They do it the best and probably always will.
Yes Scuddman, if you live to say 'I told you so' to misinformed/delusional people on Internet message boards YE HAVE SUCCEEDED!
If people think back to when white dwarf actually had rules every month it brings us some hope. They would release a placeholder codex/army book usually 6-12months in advance of the actual release. Mainly to get a last shot of sales, or if you arent cynical to get people back into the race/army.
First off I apologize for the crude statement, but I'm a competitive gamer. Diluting invulnerable saves to a 6++ save for everyone doesn't do much when it's needed the most. I want to roll the dice, knowing on average a squad will survive. I don't want to be praying to the dice gods throughout the entire game, hoping I'll miraculous make a bucket load of 6++ saves against a charging FNP Terminators with 3++ or GK armed with notching but Force Weapons. Crusaders will most likely be expensive and lack of stubborn (IC don't last long when they get singled out) makes them a liability.
In light of the newer codices, there was nothing OP about the old faith system.
Also, Infernus Pistols are usually preludes to assault due to the 6". The new SoB got hit hard in assault.
In other news, WallWeasels at Warseer noticed a recent post from pathtyphon at BoK:
If Special Characters are really below 120 pts for all their capacities.... that's one more clue about the fact that GW want every army to be lead by one or two of them... I am a little disapointed about that, as I don't like the idea that Jacobus leads every single one force of Battle Sisters in the Imperium -_-
I am not very pleased about the basic cost annunced for most of the sisters units. Not that I really expected big changes about that... but well, you never know.
I am curious to see how SoB players are going to make all this work.
Thank you Sabrx and I apologize for drinking while using a message board.
I never meant to imply that the old faith system was OP but many people couldn't understand it and it was a huge pain to have to explain every game. Plus we only ever used two of the faith abilities anyway so it doesn't matter that much.
Sisters did get hit for combat but they were never meant to be there anyway, its why (In my opinion) that they dropped in points so much. GW saw that they weren't good in combat and made them cheaper to compensate for the fact that all their good weapons are close range. The hit and run won't be as effective with the Initiative drop but it didn't really make any sense that only that one squad had I4 when every other base unit was I3.
At 12 points per and 10 for a superior, possibly 5 points for a melta (Maybe get two or get one and a flamer - for 10) and a 35pt Rhino. That's around 180pts for 10, leadership 9, Bolters, 2 melta guns (Or melta heavy flamer) with a re-rollable 6+ invulnerable save and the chance to always regroup. Not too bad. It's about what, 210? For 10 Marines with 1 flamer and a Rhino.
The heavy flamer (If available) or two melta gives them good damage output. (Yes we can't compete with Wolves in that respect but can anyone really? They're insane at 15pts and a free meltagun!1!)
BoK has the same points I'm hearing from others. Celestians got hosed it looks like. Makes sense since they are an autotake now. GW loves to do that. Looks like my 4 HB retrebutors will see play as they are cheap. Scouting Dominions will replace my Celestian squads It looks like.
Sersi wrote:
Hey Sanguinius is just some blonde chick anyway, so its fluffy!
Ha fantastic, and death company dreads are really Penetents in disguised. Might have trouble passing Repentia off as death company but you can always try.
I seriously hope that this is some elaborate hoax. If it's true that a basic Battle Sisters squad with VSS now costs 1pt more than it did in 3rd Edition, even after the chronic nerfing of the Faith system's versatility, GW would have been better off leaving us the feth alone until they were ready to give us a full book Codex. Until I see the pages myself, I'm going to simply hope we're all being trolled.
Celtic Strike wrote:I think we all knew that it was going away. A few of us are actually pleasantly surprised that its not going away completely. I was afraid of losing them all forever but I'm glad GW kept them in some way. I think the squad based Acts of Faith make sense in the GW design philosophy and goes in line with the Grey Knights squad physic powers.
The thing is, it shouldn't be in line with the Grey Knights psychic powers. Different powers coming from different sources should work differently. In the Sisters' case, the Acts of Faith are all either being provided by a single individual, or are representations of amorphous "superhuman feats" enabled by their zeal, either of which means all Sisters should have access to the same pool of powers. What, do you think the Emperor is going to say "No Relentless for you, little Retributor! You should have joined Canoness Iliona in her squad!"
True, but its equipment EVERYONE has been getting. Ever since 5th came out, imperial forces have been given grenades as standard. Did people bitch when Wolves and Blood angels got grenades? (True they are more capable in assault than the girls) But It gives the girls a little bit more options against vehicles if our meltas fail for some reason. Its better to have them than not.
Not if we're expected to pay extra for them. These things are not worth an extra point because if you're playing the Sisters right, you'll almost never have the option to use them.
Celtic Strike wrote:I never meant to imply that the old faith system was OP but many people couldn't understand it and it was a huge pain to have to explain every game. Plus we only ever used two of the faith abilities anyway so it doesn't matter that much.
Then they should have at least given everyone the two Faith abilities people actually wanted to use.
I imagine I'm going to take both jump girls and Celestines
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I am a little upset that the faith system isn't as expansive as it could be but if every sister did have two choices, wouldn't we bitch that they are of a higher cost than they are already? If they did get two their points would be higher and then we would be even more upset.
Plus, if they give the body guards a choice of the multi melta. That is gonna be awesome.
Wow. Reading the french warhammer forum, it seems that there will be no increasing-faith wargear, HF cost more and that Penitent engine cost a little more (I dunno what is the point cost for a vanilla Dakka predator ?) And no "speed" upgrade for immolators to replicate their old rule :s
Celtic Strike wrote:If they did get two their points would be higher and then we would be even more upset.
There is no direct causal link between effectiveness (or characterfulness) and cost. Yes, an incompetent writer will increase points costs without properly considering whether that increase is justified, but we are hypothesising a reality where the authors of this WDex are not incompetent, who make the Sisters' rules work in a characterful manner and don't arbitrarily increase points costs just because they think that's what is required of them.
I just reread my old Chapter Approved Codex for Sisters. WOW we had it good back then when Faith was first introduced.
Memory lane trip...........
Needed to buy a preacher to make units faithfull.
Spirit of the Martyr was feel no pain basicly.
Divine Guidance was similar.
The passion was fleet plus +2 intiatve and +1 attack. Wowzers.
Light of the Emperor was ATSNNF.
Faith only needed a LD check to work.
Celestian were Int 4 and holy hatred gave +1 attack on charge. They were 1 point more than a current basic sister.
Sister's were one point cheaper than now.
I want my old Chapter Approved codex back. Oh and Redemptionists were troops and were awesome in hand to hand, like kill any unit in the game good.
Less than week before we can find out for ourselves for certain, but this will not surprise me at all. This codex was not about keeping Sisters competitive, it was to let folks know they aren't forgotten.
Pretty sure both the WoC and BAWD dex's wheren't too great. Hopefully this will all be worth it when the actual dex appears, probably next year.
On a side note, I'm actually more interested to see what's listed on the 'next month' page. Hopefully it'll be Necrons, the more time I have to paint them for my Sons Christmas prezzie the better.
Wow... So that wasn't an earthquake we got hit by yesterday, it was because the collective community of Sisters' players suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.
That or Melissia read the thread...
It'll be interesting to see the apologists spin this one, assuming of course, it's accurate...
Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.
AlexHolker wrote:The thing is, it shouldn't be in line with the Grey Knights psychic powers. Different powers coming from different sources should work differently.
Adding a million different subsystems to accomplish essentially the same thing, in the name of verisimilitude, is idiotic game design.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't worry. I memorised everything.
Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.
Dude, I'm pretty sure you're like 5-10 points off.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't worry. I memorised everything.
Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.
Dude, I'm pretty sure you're like 5-10 points off.
Did you carry the two? I made that mistake at first. Also, don't forget that Draigo ignores all rules of Euclydian geometry.
Haha so the people that thought it was going to be a horde army of 3+ save models were way off. Once again GW overcosts a useless 6++ save. I wonder if people are happy now they get frag and krak grenades for their units that don't assault?
So for 4 extra points, you get +1 WS, +1 S, +1T, +1I, free weapon options and ATSKNF which doesn't even take into context the other superior slot choices the Space Marine army has access to. In return you get a 6++ save and unreliable faith powers that aren't even great when they work. At least this list should prove that Cruddance is without a doubt the worst designer in the company. I really thought this list was going to be a middling, get you by affair with no real character but serviceable. If these French leaks are real it's not only a hilarious nerf to an already underplayed army but an obvious indication that they didn't listen to 10 YEARS of fans complaints in the slightest (Penitent Engines with rage being expensive and in the same exact slot as before).
This list has shown me that I should have absolutely no confidence that the actually Sisters codex won't be a huge mess. I hope people don't get stars in their eyes about that one like this. Beware "Finally getting some love" when the company actively hates your army.
I'm not surprised regular SoB went up in price. The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced... not by much, but still underpriced. Yes GW nerfed faith system, but that an army rule that was largely ignored in pricing the basic SoB. Its a limitation of the rules that the point values are whole numbers only... abstractly I think of it like this... the previous edition of SoB were worth 12.45pts and thus rounded down... now they're worth 12.55pts and end up getting rounded up. Between now and an actual book release, its upto GW to close the gap and make SoB worth whatever higher point value they are now.
Remember overall though you used to have to purchase a VSS for a unit at 14 points. This made a 10 man SoB unit effectively 124 points.
Right now they come in at 120 points so that is technically a 4 point decrease. Weapon prices will be in there somewhere too, and a 18 point (smoke should be included) drop in Rhino prices means a mechanized squad costs 22 points less.
What they lost in 'utility' overall from Faith changes not withstanding of course. I do not think anyone really counts Frags/Kraks/Pistols as being a significant upgrade to the unit nor the 6++.
The Seraphim are prices pretty well IMO, the Celestians at this price may almost be unusable. Conspicuously absent are Dominions.
What is more disappointing to me is if the Force Org is as rumored (SoB only troop choice, PE are HS, Celestians are Elites).
Edit: The real slap in the face is that I have been buying metal SoB models for the last 4 years. I was amazed when I started Daemons how incredibly cheap they are.
Now I am a little sad. I was hoping for a point decrease or atleast stay the same....... /cry
So......less flexible, less powerful, same cost.......F you GW. Thanks for nothing. Glad I'm playing Hordes/warmachine now. At least I know my time and money invested will not be wasted like with you.
Celtic Strike wrote:I don't think the infernus pistols will cost that much, they may cost that much for a pair. Since they cost 10 in the Blood angels codex, I can see 25 for a twin-linked or double tapping pair.
Sisters costing 12 makes sense.
Space marines used to cost 15, now they cost 16 but they got pistol, frag and krak grenades. That's 4 pts worth of equipment for one point. Plus a Rhino drop.
Sisters are getting the same equipment, losing the 5+ save against psychic powers but gaining a 6+ invulnerable. That's a trade I'd make.
If thats a trade you would make, I'm pretty sure you never played sisters of battle ever. When sisters went up from 10 to 11 pts, they gained BS 4 and useful acts- plus 5+ vs pshyics powers.
No, frag, krak and pistols are NOT worth anothe rpoint. Not with nerfed acts and a useless 6+ invulnerable save. Hell no.
calypso2ts wrote:Remember overall though you used to have to purchase a VSS for a unit at 14 points. This made a 10 man SoB unit effectively 124 points.
Right now they come in at 120 points so that is technically a 4 point decrease. Weapon prices will be in there somewhere too, and a 18 point (smoke should be included) drop in Rhino prices means a mechanized squad costs 22 points less.
What they lost in 'utility' overall from Faith changes not withstanding of course. I do not think anyone really counts Frags/Kraks/Pistols as being a significant upgrade to the unit nor the 6++.
The Seraphim are prices pretty well IMO, the Celestians at this price may almost be unusable. Conspicuously absent are Dominions.
What is more disappointing to me is if the Force Org is as rumored (SoB only troop choice, PE are HS, Celestians are Elites).
Edit: The real slap in the face is that I have been buying metal SoB models for the last 4 years. I was amazed when I started Daemons how incredibly cheap they are.
Apparently the full squad (9+vet) is bought at 125 so the squad is 1 point more expensive.
People were hoping that in exchange for the nerfs we would get a more well thought out force org at the very least. This list is the worst combination of lazy (not shifting around ANYTHING to a different slot, screwing up stats on an identical model in anther army), boneheaded decisions (leaving bad rage rules, giving cc support to units that don't need it, 6++ save) and outright terrible game design (including a rule that doesn't scale for points value of battle with no way to increase it). Honestly there is nothing positive about this unless you really wanted to field Saint Celestine. The only thing I'm unsure of is if GW will be surprised at the negative backlash they will receive and if they will care.
I don't know how people are even including Faith in the points cost of these models when it will statistically not work very often. You will get 3.5 points a turn and on average will get these to work on a 50% success rate (vet sister but no casualties) or a 66% (vet and casualties). So MAYBE 2 succesful acts a turn and it's incredibly erratic which ones will work and they aren't even usable outside your own turn. WOW what a value!!
Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.
Sorry I was wrong about Pertinent Engines being the same cost; they are apparently more expensive than before.
This list is impressive in that it's terrible in ways I could never have predicted.
Don't forget we lost our access to psychic hoods and the army wide 5+ save against psychic powers when you work out how much we are getting for 1 point more a model.
Ixquic wrote:Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.
And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.
People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.
Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.
Edit: My reply to this post was a comparison to Space Marine Tactical Squad points costs increases, but after reading the thread, I feel silly for typing it. Now I am curling up and hugging an imaginary Battle Sister plush toy - a real one would be better of course - and telling myself it's going to be okay.
Ixquic wrote:Sorry I was wrong about Pertinent Engines being the same cost; they are apparently more expensive than before.
This list is impressive in that it's terrible in ways I could never have predicted.
Don't forget we lost our access to psychic hoods and the army wide 5+ save against psychic powers when you work out how much we are getting for 1 point more a model.
Ixquic wrote:Seriously just squat the army and be done with it. I feel like I got ripped off for the price of a White Dwarf by supporting this useless codex.
And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.
People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.
Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
Maybe they shouldn't do these at all then if what we get is a poorly thought out and un-playtested mess? I'm not going to be grateful that my army is unplayable for some undefined time until the new book comes out when they won't even tell us when and if that is happening.
Nothing about this list shows that they have any clue about how the army works or any future plans for what the eventual book will be like (other than bad). If GW really cared about "being more open with development" they would have faqed the Witch Hunters book to no longer include allies or Inquisitors and to fix Rhinos so they were current (much like how they fixed Dark Angels with 3++ Storm Shields and better Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then release test lists online while they were designing the new book. Instead they make the old book illegal and literally nerf every aspect of the army except for stupid stuff like frag grenades and +1 attack on a unit with no power attacks, S3 and I3.
Btw people on Warseer are listing new great leaks. Laudhailer gives a free faith point on a roll of a 6 when you use a faith power (so another stupid 6+ roll that will never happen with any regularity). The cannoness is more expensive, has no access to Blessed Weapons and can't use a jump pack. So yeah if this is the future of White Dwarf codexes they can go feth themselves. They didn't even move around any force org slots so what possible direction for the army are you getting? Why should I want them to continue with this?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.
What that is 1.4563 more than they cost already if my cube root of Draigo is accurate.
Seriousely i'm head in my hands if there is a points increase, I just can't bare to think about it really. We must be trolled here, we must.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dominions cost the same amount as 7 Rhinos + a Land Raider divided by the square root of the distance between Mars and Jupiter multiplied by the cube root of Draigo.
What that is 1.4563 more than they cost already if my cube root of Draigo is accurate.
Seriousely i'm head in my hands if there is a points increase, I just can't bare to think about it really. We must be trolled here, we must.
I'm lost as to what the point is. No one is going to rush out to buy incredibly expensive models for this when a month ago they got better rules with the free PDF and current Sisters players certainly aren't updating their lists to work into this. Like what's their goal here?
So they can say they updated every pre-4th ed codex by the time 6th ed rolls around. That and the idea that they're giving us a playtest codex, and trying to put more content into WD to boost sales.
aka_mythos wrote:Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
But I didn't want them. I mean, I can only speak for myself - but then, your post seems to be speaking for all Sisters of Battle players, so I suppose that's okay. After the thick end of a decade of the C:WH rules, I was more than content to wait for a proper Codex. I mean, three years? When you've waited eight? Sure, why not. Just throw out a FAQ that makes SoB obey the new USRs rather than their old, custom versions, if you're really worried about the impact they're having on 5th Edition game balance, and Bob's your uncle.
Really. I didn't ask for, or want, a Chapter Approved Codex. And I've yet to meet a fellow Sisters player who was happy at the idea we were getting this pamphlet rather than a book release. So whoever these 'people' you're referring to are, the ones who asked GW for this with an almost My-Little-Pony-esque naiveté, can you tell them from me that from hell's heart, I stab at them? Oh! And that for hate's sake, I spit the last breath of my poor Order Minoris at them? Cheers!
Brother SRM wrote: trying to put more content into WD to boost sales.
This.
But is more "bad" rules really going to fly with people long term, continue like this and it more than likely will see off white dwarf not improve sales.
Brother SRM wrote:So they can say they updated every pre-4th ed codex by the time 6th ed rolls around. That and the idea that they're giving us a playtest codex, and trying to put more content into WD to boost sales.
But does anyone actually care about "every codex updated before 6th?" I mean it doesn't matter to players since most are only concerned with the army they play, not the other ones they don't. Management and investors only care about profits not some nebulous "every army is now 5th edition ready" or whatever. Players that actually play the books aren't so stupid they can't see past a technicality; this isn't a codex and isn't even a proper codex update; it's a nonsensical mess created by a person that has apparently never used the army or even listened to complaints of people that do.
In regards to White Dwarf sales I'm not sure that people are going to be so keen for their list to be given the "Magazine treatment" if it means that they get screwed. The last one sold well since we didn't know what was coming and the idea of a White Dwarf codex was novel and we wanted to see what was in store. This thing is in no way going to boost future sales.
EDIT: Update heavy flamer is 20 points which is the same cost as Grey Knights pay for a strength 6 version. Totally reasonable given the many benefits of the Sister's new codex.
Ha! 12 points, I called it in the last thread! Stop thinking in terms of what would be fair, but how GW costs things. The Henchmen entry in the GK codex gives us a nice view into how they think. They really think that power armor on a t3 guy is worth 9 points, and that a bolter on a bs 3 guy is worth 3 points (I may be wrong on that one, I do not have the codex with me). There was no way they were going to let a model with power armor, bolter, and a 6++ go for less than 12 points. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm saying it's how they think.
I think the bolter upgrade is only 1 point because it's what my friend uses when he makes cheap squads to spam Razorbacks. But yeah the 3+ save on a crap statline model is absurdly overpriced.
I'm also not totally surprised. Just look at Fantasy 8th edition to see how GW thinks that 6+ invuls are totally awesome and worth designing a game around. I'm guessing that they use crappy cheap dice that roll 1s and 6s more often than statistically they should when they play test.
I hope they have the new "Hey please send us your feedback!" email link in this month's copy. I know it's pointless but sending a complaint will at least feel cathartic.
Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
cygnnus wrote:Wow... So that wasn't an earthquake we got hit by yesterday, it was because the collective community of Sisters' players suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.
That or Melissia read the thread...
It'll be interesting to see the apologists spin this one, assuming of course, it's accurate...
Valete,
JohnS
HAHAHAH. +1 buddy. Over and over. Two great laughs in a row-Star Wars AND the other one I shant speak it, to call attention to myself...
A collection of posts from Warseer's n4345444 that were in the WD 2 rumor thread:
Good evening long time lurker first time poster: unfortunately the news is not great (less than ideal I guess you could call it) in regards to the following questions
Blessed ammo - does not exist in the White Dwarf Codex (WDC) Inferno bolts come as standard with immolator Twinlinked heavy bolter weapon choice and allow the heavy bolter to reroll wounds
Laud Hailer - When any sister of battle unit within 12 inches of the laud hailer successfully get off an act of faith you roll a d6, on a six you immediately get 1 additional faith point. As far as I can see laud hailers can only be taken by the Sororitas command squad Dialogus
Sarissas - no longer exists.
There are only 18 pieces of gear total for the army - this includes Dozer Blade, EA, Hunter killer missile, Storm bolter and Search light upgrades for vehicles...
Question: whether there are special units that give an additional Troops option (similar to Dante et al),
Answer: No there are not. You do need to a generic confessor or Kyrinov or Uriah to unlock Battle conclave, but there is no unit or character that allows the unlocking or recatergorising of other units.
On a side note Battle conclaives are unit size 3-10 all members cost the same amount as each other (think old school dominion melta gun) and the Arco flagilent got a strenght bost to 5 ( thats from last month when he was only strength 4.
Sororitas Command Squads are maximum size 5
The Simulacrum Imperialis, alows you to reroll failed act of faith tests...
Question: Is blessed weapon still an option for canoness?
Answer: No it is not there anymore. Twinlinked heavy bolter weapon choice and allow the heavy bolter to reroll wounds.
Question: Does this weapon count as a twin-linked weapon for shooting reasons or does it only get to re-roll to wound?
Answer: Gets to reroll to hit for being twin linked, gets to re roll to wound for having inferno bolts
Question: I'm interested to know of Repentias or seraphs can take Simulacra or not?
Answer: No they cannot, either of them, although Seraphs have the reroll faith built in – it will not be possible to stack rerolls as they don’t have the option of taking simulacra.
Question: Does a Battle Conclave take up a FOC slot of its own? And are you limited to one Battle Conclave squad per Confessor?
Answer: The Conclave does not take up a slot itself but you can only take 1 squad (3-10 models) per confessor, be he named or generic.
Blessed banner - unit within 12 rerolls failed moral and pinning tests, while bearer is alive unit counts as having scoured one extra wound in combat.
Chain sword - NC
Churgeons tools - FNP to unit
Combi Weps - NC
Condemnor Boltgun - sounds cool , is actually just the bolter stake crosbow combi weap from C:WH S5 Assault 1
Evicerator NC
Frag grenades NC
Nural whip - Strenght 8 but tests against Ld not T - still acts as a power wep
Rosarius - NC but at least we get to use it
Storm shield - NC 3+ invuln no 2 hand wep bonus...
Cannoness went up in cost and now cannot take a junp pack - profound sadness. Eviserator cost NC. Cannoness can get chainsword, Storm bolter, PSword, Combi wep, Plaspistol, Inferno Pistol, Eviserator, rosaruis, and melta bombs - that is an exaustive list. And no she cannot take a storm shield.
There is also a preacher model on the SoB webstore with a plasma gun, do we get that too? - Confessors can still get Plas gun , shot gun bolt gun, Storm Bolter, combi wep, PSword - they come with Chainsword and las pistol as standard
Confessor and Battle conclave count as a single HQ choice...
Battle conclaves can take either rhinos or immolators and multimelta now are quite reasonable (thing the old CWH BSister Squad melta cost reasonable)
Repentia can not take dedicated transports but it looks like you can buy a transport seperate and then load them into it during the first turn - provided that they dont run screaming at an enemy that they can see - Im looking at you ork deth coptas...
Immolator cost is NC
No Blessed Weapons at all.
Heavy Flamer is now double the cost [20 pts] of a MultiMelta [10 pts]...
Executioner NC, no cloak, same high cost of the Heavy flamer is across the board for bss,cs,ds and rs. All of the above except ds can take mm and hb...
Squads have to be purchased with the Sister superior, They have a base cost for 4 sister and a SSuperior with an option to purchase more sisters for x amount. THe exception is the BSS which come with 9 BS and 1 SS with an option to buy an additional 10 sisters. They cost the same as a CWH heavy flamer with the cost of the first 10 models being ten heavy flamers and a storm bolter in the CWH costs...
[In regards to the last sentence]Stupid veiled speech HF cost the same as the old Ordo hereticus Psychic power Hammer of the Witches [20 pts]. The squad itself cost 6 times that + 5 points [125pts].
Da Boss wrote:Yeah, for sure. I'm glad someone made the Grey Hunter/Sister comparison.
6 Sisters vs. 5 Grey Hunters, I know who my money is on.
Yeah this has pretty much cemented my opinion that the company no longer has any clue what it's doing. I'm glad I don't play any more of its worthless systems although I was hoping this would get me back in since I still know people that are into them.
To be fair that one was made pretty clear when the included Kamirazov in the Grey Knights book and the first half of the codex didn't have any Inquisitor slots. I'm not that bummed about that specific reduction since until the Witch Hunters book they weren't really super close anyway.
And this is one reason GW stopped doing these... at best with WD's publication cycle this codex is 2-3 months old before we get to look at it. This means what we're seeing is old, and it is at best 9 or more months of developement out from an actual book. That makes it a very early draft.
People want a new codex and they want GW to be more open about their development... this is GW being more open with development of the new codex, but its incomplete. Its silly to imagine something this far away from an actually being published in book form would be have matured more than this.
Your sentiments underscore why GW stopped doing these WD rules, people want them, until they have them, and then they don't.
Um...no. If GW wanted feedback, or more open about codex development; then they would post experimental rules up on their site like, say Forgeworld. They would setup an email address or some other method for receiving said feedback. This was about putting something...anything in WD that was less blatant advertising. Do you honestly believe that actual effort was put into this?
I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. But people need to stop with this "GW's look for feedback"...."oh its a test codex business". It's speculation. We have no evidence for that and it's wishful thinking. If they wanted feedback they would have asked for it.
Sersi wrote:I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. But people need to stop with this "GW's look for feedback"...."oh its a test codex business". It's speculation. We have no evidence for that and it's wishful thinking. If they wanted feedback they would have asked for it.
Don't worry, it doesn't sound harsh - just rational.
The good news is that you can create a somewhat reliable, stable faith system, take a laud hailer, protector of the faith, and a veteran sister, and a SI in every squad and you should be able to get faith powers off on the majority of your squads regardless of what you rolled for your faith points. It's just a little pricey.
Protector of the Faith is the special character that lets you reroll your faith point dice. You take him to up your initial faith per turn, start by using faith near the laud hailer to replenish faith, and the SI and veteran lets you get powers off on a 4+ rerollable, it's nto perfect, but it should let you get off most of the powers you need, while being somewhat stable.
Melissia wrote:Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
It seems to me that there is no reason that every army shouldn't auto include him and Saint Celestine if she is indeed between 100 and 120 points and the standard Cannoness is 75 base.
Melissia wrote:Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
Remembering your posts in the previous Sisters thread, that's more than can be said for you.
Melissia wrote:Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
Remembering your posts in the previous Sisters thread, that's more than can be said for you.
Yes, because telling people to wait for the points values THEN doomsay and saying 45 point Penitent engines was pure wishlisting of the worst kind makes me a newb who doesn't know 40k. When the points values came out (which they still haven't, but whatever) it looks bad. Cool. Now you get to bitch since now you actually have something to whine about.
45 point PEs is still utterly unbalanced, and would have been totally broken. That hasn't changed.
Melissia wrote:Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
Remembering your posts in the previous Sisters thread, that's more than can be said for you.
Yes, because telling people to wait for the points values THEN doomsay and saying 45 point Penitent engines was pure wishlisting of the worst kind makes me a newb who doesn't know 40k.
Because current point values for Penitent Engines makes them desirable and just ripping up your Space Marines in games across the nation. Just because you are bad at game design in the same way as certain codex authors doesn't make you correct.
But hey feel free to continue making douchey un provoked comments against other posters. It's the story of every Sisters of Battle thread. so why stop now?
Kirasu wrote:I dont even know what to say about this book.. I wasnt a huge fan of the BA book, but it was atleast just a "marine" book for the most part
This just seems a radically different playstyle that reduced options and effectiveness
Pretty much.
"Everything's different..."
"What's wrong with that?"
"Nothing, except it's now worse than the Necron codex."
Discussion requires courtesy. This is the only warning I'm going to post in this thread before suspending accounts. There have been enough Sisters threads with the exact same culprits for everyone to know what the expectations are: trading personal insults and flamebaiting/flaming are not allowed.
ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. Now you get to bitch since now you actually have something to whine about.
Awesome - nice to know we can get on with bitching Also, you might find it funny that Penitent Engines have seemingly gone up in price, rather than down. At least it means we know this Codex wasn't a cynical attempt by GW to shift models they'd never been able to sell before - as I've always said, never attribute to malice what can be put down to good, old-fashioned idiocy.
ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. Now you get to bitch since now you actually have something to whine about.
Awesome - nice to know we can get on with bitching Also, you might find it funny that Penitent Engines have seemingly gone up in price, rather than down. At least it means we know this Codex wasn't a cynical attempt by GW to shift models they'd never been able to sell before - as I've always said, never attribute to malice what can be put down to good, old-fashioned idiocy.
When in doubt, always bet on GW's incompetence.
I know it's worked for me so far! I have twenty bucks from a friend who bet me that her finecast would come in without any flaws. It was missing a hand.
Kirasu wrote:I dont even know what to say about this book.. I wasnt a huge fan of the BA book, but it was atleast just a "marine" book for the most part
This just seems a radically different playstyle that reduced options and effectiveness
Pretty much.
"Everything's different..."
"What's wrong with that?"
"Nothing, except it's now worse than the Necron codex."
Hey now, it's not that bad. At least you can still reliably kill tanks. Necrons would love to have that.
They may not be as effective as before, but they can still burn and melt with the best of them. Just like tyranids may not be able to do everything we want them to do, they can still deliver that sweet, sweet, tentacle love, sisters will still be able to drive up a deliver a burning sensation the enemy will not soon forget.
sharkticon wrote:They may not be as effective as before [snip for space]
That's the thing. Sisters were never really all that spectacular. At best, they were average on the list of competitiveness, and only if you built your list in one of two specific ways. And even then, they were STILL worse than every 5th edition codex except Tyranids. I had never seen a Sisters army win a real championship or even place in the top three, from third edition to fifth. Someone may correct me on this, but I doubt it.
sharkticon wrote:Protector of the Faith is the special character that lets you reroll your faith point dice. You take him to up your initial faith per turn, start by using faith near the laud hailer to replenish faith, and the SI and veteran lets you get powers off on a 4+ rerollable, it's nto perfect, but it should let you get off most of the powers you need, while being somewhat stable.
That's horrible game design. Wasn't the point of changing the Faith system to streamline it, and to make easier for your opponent to understand? Now not only is it weaker, but its more complicated as well. Hmm...I need this special character....oh need to be in range of the command squad....did I take a casualty? Rolls dice... I still failed.... Yep, much simpler than rolling over or under the size of the unit was. Leaving aside that the character and SI cost points that could be used elsewhere.
Melissia wrote:Lol, celestians and battle sisters,, despite being worse than before, are now more expensive than before too. Seraphim are also worse, but they're cheaper to match. Too much cheaper in fact, fifteen pionts? Might as well just spam them and throw them away rather than use them tactically.
All the trollish claims certain people made that my negativity was akin to saying "the sky is falling" look even more amusingly stupid.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
Remembering your posts in the previous Sisters thread, that's more than can be said for you.
Yes, because telling people to wait for the points values THEN doomsay and saying 45 point Penitent engines was pure wishlisting of the worst kind makes me a newb who doesn't know 40k.
Because current point values for Penitent Engines makes them desirable and just ripping up your Space Marines in games across the nation. Just because you are bad at game design in the same way as certain codex authors doesn't make you correct.
But hey feel free to continue making douchey un provoked comments against other posters. It's the story of every Sisters of Battle thread. so why stop now?
I came into that thread at like page 14. You'd already earned the reputation long before i wandered in. I was just asking for you to be reasonable and pointed out wishlistyness, which you staunchly refused and then wouldn't aknowledge. PEs weren't taken at their previous point values, that doesn't mean you cut it in half. People don't like LC terminators, should they be 20 points?
Mythal wrote: At least it means we know this Codex wasn't a cynical attempt by GW to shift models they'd never been able to sell before - as I've always said, never attribute to malice what can be put down to good, old-fashioned idiocy.
IN a manner of speaking it was:
Heavy Flamer is now double the cost [20 pts] of a MultiMelta [10 pts]..
Pretty big F U to folks with immolator armies of heavy flamers.....and now MM are cheaper to boot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote: People don't like LC terminators, should they be 20 points?
But thats not the fault of lighting claw terminators. Thats the fault of storm sheilds being overpowered/undercost for what they do.
But thats not the fault of lighting claw terminators. Thats the fault of storm sheilds being overpowered/undercost for what they do.
People didn't like them before the Storm Shields, they're really not very good for what they cost. People don't take them in the marine books where TH/SS costs more either.
Pretty big F U to folks with immolator armies of heavy flamers.....and now MM are cheaper to boot.
20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
carmachu wrote:
But thats not the fault of lighting claw terminators. Thats the fault of storm sheilds being overpowered/undercost for what they do.
That's one side of the coin. The other side is that LC terminators are overpriced for what they do (or, perhaps don't do), and therefore should be lowered in price.
This is just another one of the many incompetent design choices that GW has made over the last four or five years (or possibly since Andy Chambers left). No one is beating down the door to play sisters with their current rules because they're overpriced compared to current trends. So, hey, make them more expensive...
carmachu wrote:
But thats not the fault of lighting claw terminators. Thats the fault of storm sheilds being overpowered/undercost for what they do.
That's one side of the coin. The other side is that LC terminators are overpriced for what they do (or, perhaps don't do), and therefore should be lowered in price.
This is just another one of the many incompetent design choices that GW has made over the last four or five years (or possibly since Andy Chambers left). No one is beating down the door to play sisters with their current rules because they're overpriced compared to current trends. So, hey, make them more expensive...
Lets be realistic people have never, in this games history, beaten down the doors to play sisters. They're unpopular for numerous reasons other then game balance. They weren't hot sellers when the With Hunters book was new and good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mythal wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
No, Sternguard pay half that to upgrade a boltgun to a heavy flamer
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
ShumaGorath wrote:20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
No, Sternguard pay half that to upgrade a boltgun to a heavy flamer
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
Sat with the book in front of me. Legion of the Damned pay a silly amount for a Heavy Flamer, but Sternguard only pay 10 per Heavy Flamer.
ShumaGorath wrote:20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
No, Sternguard pay half that to upgrade a boltgun to a heavy flamer
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
Sat with the book in front of me. Legion of the Damned pay a silly amount for a Heavy Flamer, but Sternguard only pay 10 per Heavy Flamer.
Probably comped down a bit because you lose the special ammo. I thought those bolters were worth 5 a piece because of the ammo, but who knows. What do terminators pay?
ShumaGorath wrote:20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
No, Sternguard pay half that to upgrade a boltgun to a heavy flamer
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
Sat with the book in front of me. Legion of the Damned pay a silly amount for a Heavy Flamer, but Sternguard only pay 10 per Heavy Flamer.
Which pretty much establishes that GW is to consistency what Ghadaffi is to good governance.
Lets be realistic people have never, in this games history, beaten down the doors to play sisters. They're unpopular for numerous reasons other then game balance. They weren't hot sellers when the With Hunters book was new and good.
SO that justifies poor design, bad choices in points and other and in general screwing up the army?
I hope none of the xenos become unpopular, or god forbid one of the flavors or marines, becuase it will justify screwing them up.
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
apples and oranges, LoD pay that also becuase their save is invulnerable as well.
ShumaGorath wrote:20 is in line with the base marine book. I pay 20 on sternguard if I remember right.
No, Sternguard pay half that to upgrade a boltgun to a heavy flamer
You sure? I remember the HF being bizarrely expensive compared to the other weapons in that squad, I don't have the book in front of me though. I know Legion of the damned pay through the nose.
Sat with the book in front of me. Legion of the Damned pay a silly amount for a Heavy Flamer, but Sternguard only pay 10 per Heavy Flamer.
Which pretty much establishes that GW is to consistency what Ghadaffi is to good governance.
Flamers and combi flamers cost the same amount in the book too. The guy writing the marine book was incompetant beyond belief.
That elite statline means absolutely nothing to a heavy flamer. The cheaper the user the better.
But you didnt point out then, IG, you used space marine. What the marine codex says in comparison, with all its options shouldnt have any bearing on cost of Hflamer in a sisters army. Bad example on your part
ShumaGorath wrote:Probably comped down a bit because you lose the special ammo. I thought those bolters were worth 5 a piece because of the ammo, but who knows. What do terminators pay?
Half what Sternguard pay, or a quarter what Battle Sisters pay in the new Dex. But I'd rather not go through all of the Codices on my shelf trying to defend the indefensible regarding the silly costing of heavy flamers
Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.
Oh hells yeah!
With the amount of plasma and melta on the field, it'll save a model a turn. At 11 points a model minimum, that's 66 points of models saved over the course of a 6 turn game at least. Isn't that worth at least one point per dudeman? Considering the fact it could save an expensive model or a vehicle, you should count yourself fortunate it doesn't cost more.
Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.
Oh hells yeah!
With the amount of plasma and melta on the field, it'll save a model a turn. At 11 points a model minimum, that's 66 points of models saved over the course of a 6 turn game at least. Isn't that worth at least one point per dudeman? Considering the fact it could save an expensive model or a vehicle, you should count yourself fortunate it doesn't cost more.
/sarcasm mode off
Especially with the rarity of 4+ cover saves in this edition!
Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.
I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.
Why would you run her in a squad anyway? She's an incredible fire magnet, I'd rather her get shot then something that stays down. Running her in a squad wastes her best ability.
Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.
People generally try to build their army to destroy MEQ and specifically deny that save whenever possible.. which works just as well on SOB. The 6+ IS valuable considered there's plenty of times where people go to ground out in the open when the only other choice is complete annihilation.. and you don't have to give up your next turn to actually get the same effect. As for vehicles, it definitely comes in handy. For my old speed freak ork army, I bought the armor plate upgrade for EVERY vehicle (average around 8-10 in the army depending on size). At 5pt per upgrade, it only had to work ONCE to pay for the whole army's worth of upgrades. A 6+ invul is a good thing that people actually pay for in other armies. There are things to complain about in this new "codex" but the 6+ isn't one of them.
Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.
I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.
Ignore them. We already know she has the IC rule, thanks to last month's issue. Also some of the initial points-cost rumours have been slammed by other websites: BoK reported that Celestine is actually 175pts now, rather than 120pts.
warboss wrote:As for vehicles, it definitely comes in handy.
Except that vehicles (aside from Bjorn) can't take invulnerable saves without a pretty major errata.
That said, I agree that the 6++ is 'nice to have'. I disagree that it is as valuable, to a tactically minded player, as the old, limited-use 3++
Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles. They are granted cover saves as normal.
ShumaGorath wrote:Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles.
Also, in case you missed my answer to your previous question viz Terminators, 5 points.
Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.
Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.
I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.
Ignore them. We already know she has the IC rule, thanks to last month's issue. Also some of the initial points-cost rumours have been slammed by other websites: BoK reported that Celestine is actually 175pts now, rather than 120pts.
Yeah 175 points sounds a lot more reasonable for someone of her statline.
Mythal wrote:
Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.
ShumaGorath wrote:Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles.
Also, in case you missed my answer to your previous question viz Terminators, 5 points.
Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.
I'm thinking more like relentless heavy bolters. Even with the new points, I'm thinking that an army built around Jacobs, a cannoness with heavy bolter command squad with multimelta immolator, dominion squads with meltas in melta immolators, and what ever their devastators are called with heavy bolters and multi- melta immolators, filling the rest of the points with sisters squads to take objectives could be effective. Plenty of melta, plenty of dakka.
Now I am a little sad. I was hoping for a point decrease or atleast stay the same....... /cry
Lets be honest, for the basic SoB, there wasn't really much standing for a points decrease, at 11ppm, they were already really good. Not sure if a pts decrease was in order, will have to see their new abilities and wargear, but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.
aka_mythos wrote:The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced...
That's because "the consensus" was made by noobs who have no damn clue what they're talking about.
I think you're silly. Every time the point was raised it was that they were just a little under priced relative to similar units... we're talking a fraction of a point per model. A single point bump for an entire squad getting a little bit more equipment... I think its justified, it pushes them up enough of a fraction to round up. I'm just looking at this on a single unit basis, without consideration to the rest of the army. I know there are more outstanding issues with it, but this doesn't strike me as the deathknell issue.
Sersi wrote:
Um...no. If GW wanted feedback, or more open about codex development; then they would post experimental rules up on their site like, say Forgeworld. They would setup an email address or some other method for receiving said feedback. This was about putting something...anything in WD that was less blatant advertising. Do you honestly believe that actual effort was put into this?
Would GW? Would a company working on a 1990's buisness model really rely on new technology in that way? I don't think so. There is a difference between doing something for a reason and doing something well. GW did this for a reason, they just didn't do it very well.
Also I never said they were looking for feedback just that they were being more open about development.
Sersi wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. But people need to stop with this "GW's look for feedback"...."oh its a test codex business". It's speculation. We have no evidence for that and it's wishful thinking. If they wanted feedback they would have asked for it.
Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.
After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.
based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points:
Cannoness
Command Squad with 3 Heavy Bolters, Dialogous, Similcrum, Immolator with multimeltas
Uriah Jacobs, Protector of the Faith
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
That would give you 3 scouting units with meltas in transports with multi-meltas for first turn melta-strikes, 4 more immolators to keep up the meltaness, 4 rhinos full of bolter and flame - that the immolators can get cover from and still fire from behind, and 15 heavy bolters - 12 of which can be rending, to put pressure on enemy infantry. This seems like a solid army, it may end up being a monobuild army, but more solid than say necrons or tyranids.
Somebody pm me when it's time in this thread to start making fun of the people that thought sisters were going to be O.K. when the point costs come out....
aka_mythos wrote:Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.
Which is of course why they didn't even print enough copies of the first half to supply those with subscriptions to White Dwarf, let alone those who just picked it up for the "codex"? I mean, Sisters aren't even the focus of the issue; Vampire Counts take up way more space, heck I'm fairly certain LotR takes up more space! So, reach all you like, but GW couldn't care less what its consumers think. If they did, they'd have an official forum like just about every other company out there. Oh wait, they had one and shut it down.
I would put it more precisely at "they care that you spend", not how.
On an entirely separate note: Anyone find it funny that Cruddace's article on his army mentions starting a command squad? He shows 9 models, yet his own list limits them to 5 models. GG Cruddace.
Vaktathi wrote:...but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.
Do you play SoB? You could already buy grenades for 1 ppm in the old codex and I never saw anyone who did (I will not go so far as to say no one did). This is because Sisters get MURDERED in assault.
What people who do not play SoB fail to understand is that for all they lost (the old Faith with Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr), Books of St. Lucius, Flying Nun they needed a points break to be competitive.
Grenades (Frag/Krak) are worthless on a SoB squad (who could previously use Hand of the Emperor to make 2 S5 attacks on a vehicle). What we have is a statline nerf on many units (Seraphim, Celestians) coupled with a points increase justified by the inclusion of grenades and a 6++ save.
Please elaborate on why grenades for 1 point are worth it?
Edit: sharkticon - that list is not going to cut it in a normal game. I predict it gets blown off the table by Turn 2 without inflicting any damage on the enemy.
sharkticon wrote:After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.
based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points: -snip-
Actually, I totalled that up to over 2250 points - but obviously that's going off rumours, rather than the actual numbers (which I won't have to hand until Saturday).
sharkticon wrote:After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.
based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points:
Cannoness
Command Squad with 3 Heavy Bolters, Dialogous, Similcrum, Immolator with multimeltas
Uriah Jacobs, Protector of the Faith
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas
That would give you 3 scouting units with meltas in transports with multi-meltas for first turn melta-strikes, 4 more immolators to keep up the meltaness, 4 rhinos full of bolter and flame - that the immolators can get cover from and still fire from behind, and 15 heavy bolters - 12 of which can be rending, to put pressure on enemy infantry. This seems like a solid army, it may end up being a monobuild army, but more solid than say necrons or tyranids.
Now way in hell will that fit in 2k. The basic squads will ring in at 800 alone. 450 in immolators. And remember, each successful act to rend on Rets get you a whole one rend. 12 shots, 8 hit, 1 6 to wound. The old sisters made rending scary because they'd hit you 25+ times between 2-3 flamer templates.
The new basic SoB is NOT worth 12 points. Not after the faith nerfs. Grenades = worthless. The new SoB squads have no business charging anything except grots and Tau. Pistol = mostly worthless. It gives you a whole 6 or so WS3 S3 I3 attacks when that marine squad you just annoyed with bolter fire charges you, which won't even average a wound on them.
If Seraphim are really 15p each, the new 'workable' list is likely to revolve around them.
Vaktathi wrote:Lets be honest, for the basic SoB, there wasn't really much standing for a points decrease, at 11ppm, they were already really good. Not sure if a pts decrease was in order, will have to see their new abilities and wargear, but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.
It's a horrible trade. Giving a unit that wants to stand and rapid-fire assault grenades is like putting tits on a bull. Whatever. A 6++ is a throw-in. It's like some armies getting night vision/acute senses. It adds flavour, but being unreliable, it doesn't amount to much.
11 PPM was good when orks were 9 points and guard were 6. When they dropped in cost, it stopped being quite such a bargain. Compared to a tactical marine, a sister loses 1S, 1T, 1I, and ATSKNF. They take 1/3rd more casualties to the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game. They don't stand up in assault, although they need to get close to be effective if they're not a horde. At this price, a horde isn't viable. They can't take any weapons of significant range either, and they can't combat squad for added flexibility. How is 11 points reasonable in the current environment?
What good are 3 squads with Heavy Flamers now? You cant make them rending so its just a heavy flamer. It will kill Guards, orks and nids. That about it ....
And for my efforts I get charged and decimated in a single round. Without our stubborn books and our weak statline
No fear though, i can regroup with a faith point if they dont over run me with their higher Initiatives.
No fear though b/c we have amazing elites to go up against terminators 2+ right? Oh ... we dont ....
So once again we turn to our heavy support, praying the Exorcists kill everything. Or Retributor Squads for you ...
You could already buy grenades for 1 ppm in the old codex and I never saw anyone who did (I will not go so far as to say no one did). This is because Sisters get MURDERED in assault.
*KRAK* grenades would make it worth it for some additional organic AT capability. Normal frag grenades no, but having both for 1pt wouldn't be a bad bargain.
What people who do not play SoB fail to understand is that for all they lost (the old Faith with Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr), Books of St. Lucius, Flying Nun they needed a points break to be competitive.
At 12ppm with BS4 S4 guns Ld8/9 with a 3+/6++sv with a cool faith ability (even if not super reliable, it's there and organic to the unit) isn't bad at all. What did you want, 9pt power armored infantry? Not gonna happen.
We don't have the full wargear list or unit options. Lets wait to see that before freaking out.
given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.
Grenades (Frag/Krak) are worthless on a SoB squad
Having some ability to hurt walkers and inflict penetrating hits on just about anything that isn't a Land Raider without a faith point at all times is worthless? Exsqueeze me? Methinks we're being a bit chicken little here.
Please elaborate on why grenades for 1 point are worth it?
Because frag grenades are often worth it against several armies, and having S6 attacks against tanks and walkers is highly useful, especially when many units will be packing flamers and not meltaguns and otherwise would have no vector of attack against armor in a pinch. 1ppm is totally worth it. I know with my CSM's I'd have been screwed in more than one game had they not come with krak grenades, and I've lost dozens of chimeras and leman russ tanks to krak grenade assaults. That extra attack vector on troops that otherwise wouldn't be much of a threat or would only be situationally a threat (or to seal the deal if meltaguns fail) is awesome.
aka_mythos wrote:The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced...
That's because "the consensus" was made by noobs who have no damn clue what they're talking about.
Every time the point was raised it was that they were just a little under priced relative to similar units...
A Codex: Space Marine Tactical Marine is horribly, hideously underpriced compared to Sisters by that reasoning. They should be at least 20 pts per model. In fact, counting Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, they should probably be closer to 25 ppm. They have way too much for their statline going by pure points per model outlook.
Your position is nonsensical, and always has been. Stop repeating inane ideas based off of a philosophy with no grounding in reality, logic, reason, or sanity..
warboss wrote:People generally try to build their army to destroy MEQ and specifically deny that save whenever possible.. which works just as well on SOB.
aka_mythos wrote:Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.
The thing is its totally self fulfilling. Bad rules & bad support means less sales so less sales means less support. Besides the new WD codex is really worth 18 dollars US (the price of 2 WD's). The Witch Hunter codex has more substantial value than this one does in terms of page count. Its has more fluff, more modelling info, and more units. Its a sad state really for those of us looking for a real codex and got stuck with this. I won't believe that we have a new dex coming out until its in my hands of I see
Beerfart wrote:You need more practice with a bigger sisters army if you think grenades added anything at all to them...
And I don't see how name calling is warranted...
When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.
When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.
At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?
Vaktathi wrote:given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.
I'm sorry, but I can't see this logic. I mean, even if you only ever play Annihilation - and I tend to play an even mix - surely you have situations where being able to draw 'out the inevitable for another turn or two' is a massively big deal, not to mention the impact on objective-centric scenarios.
andrewm9 wrote:The thing is its totally self fulfilling. Bad rules & bad support means less sales so less sales means less support. Besides the new WD codex is really worth 18 dollars US (the price of 2 WD's). The Witch Hunter codex has more substantial value than this one does in terms of page count. Its has more fluff, more modelling info, and more units. Its a sad state really for those of us looking for a real codex and got stuck with this. I won't believe that we have a new dex coming out until its in my hands of I see
And even without those issues, the ridiculously overpriced models coupled with the difficulty in obtaining said models (you have to order them from GW and get them sent to a GW store) restricts sales of Sisters even further. Even if this WD 'dex was the greatest codex in the world (meaning well-balanced, not hideously over-powered), GW would *still* have reduced sales of Sisters due to the hoops that you have to jump through to get the models coupled with the exorbitant cost.
When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.
At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?
Perhaps you should go read the Dakka rules.
re-writing a post and saying "fix'd" to basically say "your army isn't good enough for you to comment" is trolling. Plain and simple, that's all it is, trolling. My bad for responding to it in that way but certainly no worse than your behavior in that regard either. Lets leave it at that.
Mythal wrote:
I'm sorry, but I can't see this logic. I mean, even if you only ever play Annihilation - and I tend to play an even mix - surely you have situations where being able to draw 'out the inevitable for another turn or two' is a massively big deal, not to mention the impact on objective-centric scenarios.
Sure, sometimes it is a big deal. However, not always. Often in fact you'll want the unit to break so you can shoot the assaulter. Additionally, gaining the Krak Grenade attack vector is highly useful as well and I've had more than one game that was won or lost by units thusly equipped.
When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.
At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?
Perhaps you should go read the Dakka rules.
I'm a douche.
That's ok with you right?
Forgive me though, you're right, you've got 1250pts worth of sisters. You obviously know everything there is to know about how the army runs competetively. I wish you much success with your grenades and 6++ saves.
Vaktathi wrote:Sure, sometimes it is a big deal. However, not always. Often in fact you'll want the unit to break so you can shoot the assaulter.
Which was why the BoSL was so amazing - it's rules said units may use the bearer's unmodified leadership, not that they must. So if you wanted your Sisters to break, you simply didn't take advantage of the Book - which, while it didn't guarantee failing a leadership check, meant you were no more likely to pass it than you were sans book. Seemples.
Anyway, moving on, I'm not entirely sure I see the value in giving Relentless to Heavy Bolter Command Squads. Multi-Meltas peeping out of the top of a Rhino, certainly, but the Heavy Bolters lack rending in Command Squad.
Which was why the BoSL was so amazing - it's rules said units may use the bearer's unmodified leadership, not that they must. So if you wanted your Sisters to break, you simply didn't take advantage of the Book - which, while it didn't guarantee failing a leadership check, meant you were no more likely to pass it than you were sans book. Seemples.
While useful, again it won't make or break Sisters units. They're at least getting some stuff in return that isn't exactly useless.
I've played around 50 2000pt+ games with my sisters... maybe more... never once have gernades mattered... at all... and I'd win most of the time. In fact, most folks around my FLGS call my sisters 'the cheaty army'. (most of that was the faith point 3++ though, and the stubborn book... everyone hates those). That and it's full of folks that play for the fluff and not competition... so they feel their one marine squad should rip through my entire army...
Vaktathi wrote:
given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.
See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.
I'm really surprised that someone thinks an item that gives a unit the choice (which is rare) to use stubborn leadership or their modified by combat result leadership for 5 points is a "meh" item.
See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.
How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.
I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.
See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.
How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.
I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.
Krak>BoSL in a sisters army?
Are you serious?
In an army where melta is so readily availiable, krak grenades have no point whatsoever. I played that codex myself since it's release...and never once did I even entertain the thought of purchasing grenades for the girls. NOT ONCE.
If you want more tankbusting...you pick up more meltaguns somewhere....you don't spend points on Krak.
Can you point to where I put out a specific value on either, much less equated them in any way?
*AGAIN*, my point was that not only do we not have a full picture of wargear and options, but that losing BoSL isn't going to be the end of the world, and that anti-tank grenades are in fact rather useful. I didn't assign value to particular wargear or ability.
Has anyone thought that it might be possible that they're overvaluing or over-relying on BoSL (not that it's necessarily the case, but that it is *possible*) or that when we get a better picture of the wargear and options available to these units there may be something we aren't seeing that could change the picture? (or possibly not admittedly).
Vaktathi wrote:Can you point to where I put out a specific value on either, much less equated them in any way?
*AGAIN*, my point was that not only do we not have a full picture of wargear and options, but that losing BoSL isn't going to be the end of the world, and that anti-tank grenades are in fact rather useful. I didn't assign value to particular wargear or ability.
Has anyone thought that it might be possible that they're overvaluing or over-relying on BoSL (not that it's necessarily the case, but that it is *possible*) or that when we get a better picture of the wargear and options available to these units there may be something we aren't seeing that could change the picture? (or possibly not admittedly).
I think what people are getting at is, when have you ever assualted a tank and used your grenades? Never
I don't ever see people use them over their PF or melta.
you will never be charging into a tank because if your melta can't kill it then you probably get assualted my whats in that tank anyway. And you rarely want to assualt when you can rapid fire or sit in your tank and wait it out.
Deadshane1 wrote:Without BoSL, footslogging sisters (arguably one of the most competetive power builds that codex can do right now) is totally out of the window.
I haven't seen a footslogging sisters army in years in three different states and dozens of events, so I don't see how that's any different than just about any other footslogging army, BoSL or not.
It's bad for drive by units as well.
How so?
Any Veteran sisters army worth his salt would EASILY say, "take my Krak grenade option away" before "take away my BoSL"....and that is a fact.
if we were only talking about krak grenades, that may be true. But we're getting more changes than just swapping those.
BoSL saves squads from dying when they need to hang on by a thread, it's versitile, it's a wonderful ability.
It can also shield opposing units from you shooting at them as they hide in CC.
....krak grenades give you a last ditch effort against SOME tanks when your multiple melta fail you.
So anything that isn't a Land Raider or a combat walker. The overwhelmingly vast majority of tanks in the game. Hitting a leman russ for example with 10 Krak Grenades on a 4+ is more likely to result in killing the tank than 2 BS4 meltaguns, about 3x as likely if it didn't move, and it can't get a cover save from krak grenades.
Marthike wrote:
I think what people are getting at is, when have you ever assualted a tank and used your grenades? Never
With the current list? Never, because grenades are too expensive. With my CSM's? Almost every game it happens.
you will never be charging into a tank because if your melta can't kill it then you probably get assualted my whats in that tank anyway. And you rarely want to assualt when you can rapid fire or sit in your tank and wait it out.
that assumes its a transport with something inside that will want to assault, and not a gun tank or an empty transport or a transport with weeny units.
Your position is nonsensical, and always has been. Stop repeating inane ideas based off of a philosophy with no grounding in reality, logic, reason, or sanity..
aka_mythos is one of the most logical and sane persons on this board. You ought to reign in your constant accusations of everybody not sharing your opinion being children, illogical etc etc and then people will take you more seriously in return. It´s a win win really.
Krak grenades, dunno, only saw them useful once when I was rammed into by a mob of killakans, those kraks saved my behind that time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So anything that isn't a Land Raider or a combat walker. The overwhelmingly vast majority of tanks in the game. Hitting a leman russ for example with 10 Krak Grenades on a 4+ is more likely to result in killing the tank than 2 BS4 meltaguns, about 3x as likely if it didn't move, and it can't get a cover save from krak grenades.
This!
Grenades give more options and thus a wider range of usage on the table.
The apparent trend with GW is to drown everything in grenades so why should sisters be excepted from this?
Marthike wrote:I think what people are getting at is, when have you ever assualted a tank and used your grenades? Never
I don't ever see people use them over their PF or melta.
you will never be charging into a tank because if your melta can't kill it then you probably get assualted my whats in that tank anyway. And you rarely want to assualt when you can rapid fire or sit in your tank and wait it out.
I use my grenades on marines and even IG plenty of times to assault tanks. Have you ever had your mech-sob transport blown up placing you in front of the enemy army (including a nasty ordnance ap3 tank)? Is it better to just stand there to fire a single additional multimelta or better to move 12" including charging while firing regular meltas and then following up with 10 krak grenades? Having grenades sure helps in that kind of situation. Is it better than a PF? No... but they're meant as a backup for when meltas miss, not as a replacement for them as your post above suggests. I run vet IG with triple meltas and meltabombs every game and I still need to assault individual tanks after shooting to get the job done 1/3 of the time due to average dice rolls. The exact situation you're saying never happens occurs at least once a game for me every time I pull out my IG (I have multiple vet squads and there's a heavy mech meta locally just like across the US). I realize that you guys aren't happy about losing some of the unique rules that you had but lets not somehow run with that to the point that adding in frag/krak/melta to units is somehow a bad thing. I sincerely doubt the decision at GW R&D came down to "Should we take away these old rules OR the grenades because one of them has to go..."
Deadshane1 wrote:More options in a unit is not always the most efficient use of points army wide.
True in many cases
When talking about Krak on sisters of battle squads, this is the case.
When they're adding 1pt for frag/krak/6++ to the base cost, it's not something I'm going to complain about. Not a bad deal. Not an *amazing* deal either, but not a bad one.
More options in a unit is not always the most efficient use of points army wide.
When talking about Krak on sisters of battle squads, this is the case.
Sure I too would like 3 meltaguns on my SM squads instead of grenades but this is irrelevant as GWs path is apparently to give variability of play to units so suck it up.
Hell, I want my SM, sisters etc to get 4 meltaguns per squad too.
Say can I have meltaguns on my grey knights too and stormshields as well, those are far more effective then grenades...
Seeing the current trend to give out grenades I fully expect sisters to get them too...and pay for them as well since they will be up against mostly equally "ineffective" grenades on other armies troops.
Pyriel- wrote:eeing the current trend to give out grenades I fully expect sisters to get them too...and pay for them as well since they will be up against mostly equally "ineffective" grenades on other armies troops.
The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
There's no difference between a battle sister squad assaulting a longfang squad to tie it up with frag grenades or one doing the same without. Or Eldar. Or Tyranids. And if you really have to assault guard or tau, you WANT the assault to last two phases, not one.
If you honestly think grenades on sisters are worth as much as grenades on Marines, you have never played fifth edition 40k.
Melissia wrote:The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
*assault* grenades sure (well, Orks, some daemons, Tau and IG and Necrons, other sisters, various units from other armies, etc), but Krak grenades are useful against every army but Tyranids and Necrons.
It's also 1 point more for much worse faith powers that are less dependable and loss of the 5+ save against psychic powers.
Eh, if you factor in that squads will take casualties and that you can't always use all powers under optimal conditions, reliability probably isn't too effected. The loss of the 5+ save is a bit of a blow true, but also highly situational as many armies either don't have psykers or won't be using offensive psychic powers, though yeah, that one does sorta suck.
Melissia wrote:The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
*assault* grenades sure (well, Orks, some daemons, Tau and IG and Necrons, other sisters, various units from other armies, etc), but Krak grenades are useful against every army but Tyranids and Necrons.
Against shooty armies, winning assaults faster is actually often a bad thing as it leaves you open to their shooting phase afterwards.
Pyriel- wrote:eeing the current trend to give out grenades I fully expect sisters to get them too...and pay for them as well since they will be up against mostly equally "ineffective" grenades on other armies troops.
The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
There's no difference between a battle sister squad assaulting a longfang squad to tie it up with frag grenades or one doing the same without. Or Eldar. Or Tyranids. And if you really have to assault guard or tau, you WANT the assault to last two phases, not one.
If you honestly think grenades on sisters are worth as much as grenades on Marines, you have never played fifth edition 40k.
I'm just going to flat out say that SoBs were and still are significantly better then tactical marines and that the addition of a grenade isn't making them useless. The basic troop is not what made the witch hunters army uncompetitive, they have a better basic troop then most. The sister is a cheap, durable, and high output squad with good options for fighting both mech and horde. That didn't change. This entire argument is idiotic, 30-40 point increase in your full 2000 point army for the grenades and 6+ saves is a wash. You roll three sixes in the entire game and you made those points back.
Deadshane1 wrote:More options in a unit is not always the most efficient use of points army wide.
True in many cases
When talking about Krak on sisters of battle squads, this is the case.
When they're adding 1pt for frag/krak/6++ to the base cost, it's not something I'm going to complain about. Not a bad deal. Not an *amazing* deal either, but not a bad one.
We're losing so much though. Reiterating everything that's gone seems pointless now look at any given page of this thread or the last one. The ones that hurt the most to me are the tank cannoness and the super faith powered bolters and heavy-flamers. These, and others, were fundamental to the play style of the army. Now we have something else, and it's worse in almost every way. Faith is a joke, 6++ and grenades? Seriously? I'm supposed to feel better about that? The army that they've given us isn't the same one as we had before. Almost everything is there with the same names but the it's not the same thing.
Go have fun with it though, it's your game too. But I think most of us Sister's player are pretty annoyed by this and pointing out how well you did with krak grenades one time isn't going to make us feel better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Pyriel- wrote:eeing the current trend to give out grenades I fully expect sisters to get them too...and pay for them as well since they will be up against mostly equally "ineffective" grenades on other armies troops.
The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
There's no difference between a battle sister squad assaulting a longfang squad to tie it up with frag grenades or one doing the same without. Or Eldar. Or Tyranids. And if you really have to assault guard or tau, you WANT the assault to last two phases, not one.
If you honestly think grenades on sisters are worth as much as grenades on Marines, you have never played fifth edition 40k.
I'm just going to flat out say that SoBs were and still are significantly better then tactical marines and that the addition of a grenade isn't making them useless. The basic troop is not what made the witch hunters army uncompetitive, they have a better basic troop then most. The sister is a cheap, durable, and high output squad with good options for fighting both mech and horde. That didn't change. This entire argument is idiotic, 30-40 point increase in your full 2000 point army for the grenades and 6+ saves is a wash. You roll three sixes in the entire game and you made those points back.
Complain about something sensible please.
If you think that the grenades and a 6++ justify an addition point to the costs you're either delusional or intentionally obtuse. I'd rather still have a 3++ if I wanted it and the free faith from the squad dying when I didn't. To blast whomever killed them with another power I don't have anymore.
When just about everyone posting in a thread suggests that your comments indicate you're not overly familiar with how an army plays or its tactics, then it's probably time to either put up (i.e. link to an After Action Report that demonstrates otherwise) or shut up.
sleezesteve wrote:
These, and others, were fundamental to the play style of the army. Now we have something else, and it's worse in almost every way.
And yet we have no wargear listing or options list for units. Lets wait to see those.
Faith is a joke
it's not as extensive sure, the abilities are more limited, that doesn't mean they aren't useful.
6++ and grenades? Seriously? I'm supposed to feel better about that?
I sure don't mind it for my sisters. It's certainly not a bad things.
The army that they've given us isn't the same one as we had before. Almost everything is there with the same names but the it's not the same thing.
And Codex: Witch Hunters wasn't the same as 2E Codex: Sisters of Battle, that was bound to happen updating a book 8 years and 2 editions later to some extent. Lets wait for the wargear and options before screaming the sky is falling. If they suck, then yeah, sure, we can rail about how the list sucks donkey butt.
That said, 12pts for a Bolter wielding 3+/6++sv BS4 Ld8/9 unit with a special (if not 100% reliable) ability is bad at all, I'd take them over many other similarly costed or stat'd units like dire avengers, stomtroopers, carapace vets, SM scouts, etc.
Far more important is going to be how the support options measure up.
Honestly, more than anything I'm mad about Seraphim getting dumped to Init3.
Go have fun with it though, it's your game too. But I think most of us Sister's player are pretty annoyed by this and pointing out how well you did with krak grenades one time isn't going to make us feel better.
If it were only one time I wouldn't be touting the awesomeness of krak grenades. The fact that my CSM's use them damn near every game, and I get them routinely used against me by armies equipped with them (read: every late 4E/5E SM army), I understand their value quite well.
I come back from 3 days camping to a gakstorm. Well, I'm going to just say the same thing as before anyways... I'll believe it when I see the scans or have it in my hands on Saturday.
Every time you wait, it gets worse and proves the pessimists right.
Because nobody knows for sure yet. Yeah, there's good chance of things being bad. There's also a chance of it being decent. Just wait 3 days and we'll all find out for real and can quit all this conjecture.
So we have a full picture of what we are talking about here?
Every time you wait, it gets worse and proves the pessimists right.
Possibly, this *is* Games Workshop, but still, before people go running around screaming about the sky falling because they're being given some not-useless-at-all wargear, we should see the full setup. If it turns out that the list as a whole is putzed, which is entirely possible, then fine, I'll join in the whining too. But the crying over the not-yet-confrimed loss of a crutch piece of wargear (BoSL) and how anti-tank grenades are useless (they're not) and the automatic equating of one with the other, I find it a bit melodramatic on the part of some posters.
So we have a full picture of what we are talking about here?
Exactly, and it ain't gonna be pretty.
Vaktathi wrote:I find it a bit melodramatic on the part of some posters.
There's no "crying" except by people who are complaining about people who don't like what they see.
"JUST WAIT, IT'LL GET BETTER! IT'LL CURE FIVE KINDS OF CANCER! EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE!".
Yes, I get it, you have unreasonably high expectations, but I prefer to keep my feet well grounded in reality. Stop annoying the pessimists already It's like talking to a friggin' gambler. "I could win this next one." "You probably won't." "But I could!" "Dude, just shut up and waste your thrice-damned money already."
Brother SRM wrote:Because nobody knows for sure yet. Yeah, there's good chance of things being bad. There's also a chance of it being decent. Just wait 3 days and we'll all find out for real and can quit all this conjecture.
There's a chance that looking at it will fill people with orgasmic bliss, too, but I doubt Slaanesh will spare the attention.
Which rumours specifically? That Sisters of Battle and Celestians have had a points cost increase? Or that Heavy Flamers now cost 20 points for BSSs? Or that Blessed Ammunition and Blessed Weapons have been removed? Please, any information you can provide would be wonderful
Things I really liked about the WH Codex was the faith system was really cool and the flying nuns. Well last issue they neutered the faith system and now I hear there are no more flying nuns? :(
12 points per sister if you get frag and krak grenades and a 6+ invuln isn't too bad in itself just they took a lot away in the old faith system it doesn't seem like they gave back much. Squad heavy flamers cost 20 pts in the Guard Codex so I'm not surprised they cost 20 in sisters.
The only army grenades will help Sisters against are Orks. And that's only a marginal, laughable help.
As Vaktathi said, other sisters, tau, IG, deamons, necrons etc so what´s all the whining about again?
There's no difference between a battle sister squad assaulting a longfang squad to tie it up with frag grenades or one doing the same without
So? There is no difference using SM grenades assaulting deamonettes or wyches either. Cry me a river.
Why again must sister wargear be inherently better?
If you honestly think grenades on sisters are worth as much as grenades on Marines, you have never played fifth edition 40k.
They both suck and I would like more assault weapons on the SM instead but GW stuck us with grenades, deal with it!
Also I really hope the SM grenades are more worth since they are placed on more expensive and thus less numeral models.
Hell lets cry rivers over ork claws being so much better then SM powerfists or SoB eviscerators when we are at it again since orks claws get more attacks for the same pointcost wargear, boo hoo.
Apparently other places in the respective armies balance out things in the end.
Against shooty armies, winning assaults faster is actually often a bad thing as it leaves you open to their shooting phase afterwards.
Damn, that means SM squads are even more worthless in melee vs tau, how unfair, whine whine etc etc etc.
You get the point yet?
We're losing so much though. Reiterating everything that's gone seems pointless now look at any given page of this thread or the last one. The ones that hurt the most to me are the tank cannoness and the super faith powered bolters and heavy-flamers. These, and others, were fundamental to the play style of the army. Now we have something else, and it's worse in almost every way. Faith is a joke, 6++ and grenades? Seriously? I'm supposed to feel better about that? The army that they've given us isn't the same one as we had before. Almost everything is there with the same names but the it's not the same thing.
I agree, you´we lost a lot but I don´t for a second thing GW is going to make a totally undrepowered crap army that will always come last in every tournament.
We havent seen the whole picture yet.
Just look back a couple of months where hordes of GK players (including myself at the very start) were whining and crying rivers that GW took away everything powerful with the already underpowered GK.
We lost WS5, we lost S6, we lost stormshields, how can this crap be competitive, how can it be fun etc etc and look now, more fun to play then ever before and not the slightest underpowered but still with huge weaknesses to cope with.
Sure people like melissia wants the very best, toughest, most powerful sister units in the whole game or else they are broken and woe anyone who dares give them ANY wargear that is not at least as effective, worth and powerful as their equivalent in another codex. I can go on for hours about this but in the end after the whining orgies have eased an people learned the new army I am sure you will get a good and fun army.
If you think that the grenades and a 6++ justify an addition point to the costs you're either delusional or intentionally obtuse. I'd rather still have a 3++
Nah I´m not obtuse nor delusional, rather you are narrow minded.
As said, I would rather retain my GK WS5, S6 and stormshields... oh I got a new army that wasnt as bad as I thought it would be, geez how odd things can be when you don´t look at the whole concept.
You think me delusional, you who only see a small detail and cry over it, you who dont even know what or how the new wargear will look like, you call me delusional then what are you in turn, overly hysterical or just a hypocrite?
And Codex: Witch Hunters wasn't the same as 2E Codex: Sisters of Battle, that was bound to happen updating a book 8 years and 2 editions later to some extent. Lets wait for the wargear and options before screaming the sky is falling. If they suck, then yeah, sure, we can rail about how the list sucks donkey butt.
But but but...they arent as powerful as before you know *sob*
All this whining and that even before anyone out there knows how the final thing will work and what is given in return for the things removed.
But hey, it´s us who are delusional.
Christ on a pushbike!
Honestly, more than anything I'm mad about Seraphim getting dumped to Init3.
That i agree on, seems illogical. I wonder what GW intends their fit in the whole army will be.
I have no delusions about the odd unit or units being simply to underpowered or overpriced to ever be used since this happens with e v e are y codex so some sister units are bound to become pure crap as are some GK units ans SM units and units in all codexes.
If it were only one time I wouldn't be touting the awesomeness of krak grenades. The fact that my CSM's use them damn near every game, and I get them routinely used against me by armies equipped with them (read: every late 4E/5E SM army), I understand their value quite well.
They sure have their worth, even on weak things since nothing with armour can be assured of a victory when charging anymore. Sure extra meltaguns would be better but GW decided to stuck everything with grenades so be it.
Brother SRM wrote:So they can say they updated every pre-4th ed codex by the time 6th ed rolls around. That and the idea that they're giving us a playtest codex, and trying to put more content into WD to boost sales.
I think most ignored me when I made this point before, but I wonder if one reason for this update is that it'll make the eventual 6th ed errata much easier for GW. If the 6th ed rumors are true, there'll be some extensive errata for each army...and I can imagine the errata for the quaint old 3rd ed codex being a very lengthy document.
Well, to be fair, it's not quite a points increase. Point for point, comparing a rhino squad from witchhunters to the new whitedwarf, you'll find them very comparable. You pay 10 more points per sister, but sergeant and rhino is cheaper..but some special and and heavy weapons are more expensive. It's pretty much a bump pointwise.
Also...6++ sucks. Think about it..when will it ever be used?
You won't use it that much vs. shots. Most of the time, your cover save or your armor save will be better. There are very things in the game that's ap3 no cover, but they do exist. It's also possible to be out in the open vs. something ap3. But the time you will use it the most will be in hth against power weapons and powerfists.
It's not completely worthless, but it's definitely worse than a situational 3++ or stubborn.
I do believe celestians are 2 attacks now. Is that worth it? I don't think so, but that's partially why they are going to be more expensive.
Brother SRM wrote:So they can say they updated every pre-4th ed codex by the time 6th ed rolls around. That and the idea that they're giving us a playtest codex, and trying to put more content into WD to boost sales.
I think most ignored me when I made this point before, but I wonder if one reason for this update is that it'll make the eventual 6th ed errata much easier for GW. If the 6th ed rumors are true, there'll be some extensive errata for each army...and I can imagine the errata for the quaint old 3rd ed codex being a very lengthy document.
I imagine either that or just a 'shut up' we did all the armies when 6th drops. Also if the 6th rumours and those page scans I saw were true. Sisters are getting an early 6th ed codex anyway
That said, 12pts for a Bolter wielding 3+/6++sv BS4 Ld8/9 unit with a special (if not 100% reliable) ability is bad at all, I'd take them over many other similarly costed or stat'd units like dire avengers, stomtroopers, carapace vets, SM scouts, etc.
Dire avengers, storm troopers, carapace vets, and sm scouts are considered uncompetitive.
WHen they are taken, they tend to be taken as minimum sized squads to either max out heavy weapons or max out transports.
That being said, scouts and carapace vets are a much better buy than SoBimo. Scouts have atsknf, access to sniperrifles, missile launchers, and camo cloaks, as well as a marine stat line. Vets are vets...just carapace vets are overpriced vets that do the same thing as their 7 point bretheren. Of course, SoB can't take 3 special weapons, a lascannon, and a chimera in a scoring troop choice.
Pretty much every competitive build with dire avengers take 5, no sgt or upgrades just to add another scoring wave serpent.
Pyriel- wrote:
I agree, you´we lost a lot but I don´t for a second thing GW is going to make a totally undrepowered crap army that will always come last in every tournament.
We havent seen the whole picture yet.
Yeah we'll see. But so far everything that has come forward looks like an ill conceived afterthought. It would be great to be proven wrong about it but you seem allot more optimistic than I am. I play grey knights too and at this point in codex discovery, or whatever you want to call it, I thought the new codex seemed awesome. Maybe because I never modeled up and termis with storm shields?
Veterans in IG are 7 points and come with grenades. Basic troopers are 5. Compared to their old codex, they went DOWN in points and gained grenades.
For SoB, compared to their old codex, they went UP in points and gained grenades.
The real problem with the basic squad isn't really their points. It's really their squad options and size for their points. If you could take only 5 with 2 special weapons and a heavy and an immolator, basic squads would be a really really good buy even at 13 points.
At 12 points, a minimum 10 and canoness can't take a jumppack..they're kinda restricted in role. Like tact marines, you have to committ a lot of points and effort into your troop choices, but unlike tact squads they aren't really very tactical, as basic sisters only really do one thing.
I'm okay with sisters of battle being 12 if they were the best close range firepower in the game like they used to be. They need it anyways. It's just that they aren't that good at close range shooting anymore. Even chaos marines pack just as many special weapons these days...
Edit: I notice too that this may be a design shift or the start of a different trend in the way army books are done. For a while, basic troopers were going down in points. Orks, space marines, space wolves, Imperial guard...a lot of these codecies made their troops cheaper when they came out. Transports went down as well...rhinos to 35, chimeras to 55.
I first noticed with Dark Eldar that this stopped being true. For the first time in a long time, contrary to expectations, troops AND transports became more expensive compared to their old codex. Now...basic sisters have gotten more expensive. Why? I don't know...but they seem to be trying to design the game differently again.
That said, 12pts for a Bolter wielding 3+/6++sv BS4 Ld8/9 unit with a special (if not 100% reliable) ability is bad at all, I'd take them over many other similarly costed or stat'd units like dire avengers, stomtroopers, carapace vets, SM scouts, etc.
Dire avengers, storm troopers, carapace vets, and sm scouts are considered uncompetitive.
WHen they are taken, they tend to be taken as minimum sized squads to either max out heavy weapons or max out transports.
That being said, scouts and carapace vets are a much better buy than SoBimo. Scouts have atsknf, access to sniperrifles, missile launchers, and camo cloaks, as well as a marine stat line. Vets are vets...just carapace vets are overpriced vets that do the same thing as their 7 point bretheren. Of course, SoB can't take 3 special weapons, a lascannon, and a chimera in a scoring troop choice.
Pretty much every competitive build with dire avengers take 5, no sgt or upgrades just to add another scoring wave serpent.
Storm troopers are pretty junky though.
You really make it sounds like the issue is that SoB aren't space marines...
Dire Avengers, Storm Troopers, Carapace Vets, and sm scouts are relatively uncompetitive because for their point cost they aren't survivable enough. SoB mitigate that common short coming and are more survivable than all those short of Scouts with camo cloaks that are dug in, but those are pricier.
I think most of the issues SoB have are more an issue with the codex composition as a whole than their core troop choice. They aren't marines plain and simple, so they really need a volume of models in a squad to have longevity. If a 15+ model squad can bring something extra beyond numbers thats what would really help, by that I mean a greater density of specials and heavies, and vehicles. The emphasis on vehicles this edition is another thing going against SoB... they need the numbers in their squads but there vehicle selection limits that. They need either a means to do something like combat squad and take multiple vehicle or just a larger vehicle that can transport a larger squad, even if it isn't a full sized squad.
Next the troop choice suffers because unlike other armies there really aren't enough other units that really draw fire. In a marine army you can list the units that are greater priority, in a SoB army alot units just come up about the same level of priority and are all relatively fragile to the same score of weapons.
Carapace vets are more competitive than SoB..just saying. They put out more long range and close range firepower for less points. It's just that they're less competitive than basic vets, since basic vets do the same thing.
And it's not so much that I'm comparing them to marines. THey don't play anything like marines. They play a lot more like IG. However, they are a specifically short ranged
SHOOTY army. They are not a shooty, countercharge army like space wovles, or a sit back and shoot army like IG can be.
It really just comes back down to the fact that their short ranged shooting sucks. You have to commit and get there...and when you do get there you only have 1 turn to make a difference. If you don't, you get assaulted, and that's it. The army's uncompetitive because this whitedwarf wasn't designed with this game balance in mind. It was written for some other purpose. GW believes themselves to be a production line company, and not a service oriented business (yay last year of business school). They don't understand yet that services like army book design fuel their production..but a lot of businesses fail at that. I'm looking at you Nintendo of the 80's and 90's.
In this edition, bolters suck, plain and simple. Short ranged shooting sucks, plain and simple. The powerful things in this game are long range dakka and hth. To be even more specific, heavy and special weapons, both in hth and shooting, dominate 40k.
I'm okay with sisters of battle being 12 if they were the best close range firepower in the game like they used to be. They need it anyways. It's just that they aren't that good at close range shooting anymore. Even chaos marines pack just as many special weapons these days...
I would like to have SoB with heavy specialisation on close range-fire power. An overdestructive close range-fire power. Even if they die horribly in HtH (but not fleeing easily) and lack of long range fire power. It is like that I intend a bolter-flamer-melta fanatical army.
So, with what it seems we are gonna to have with this second WD part. What will be the speciality/particularity of a SoB army (even if you see them as weak now, as I am not a competitive player) ?
Their specialty, at least if you want to be competitive, will be in designing immolator/exorcist spam armies.
Immolators pack the best anti-tank or anti-infantry weapons in 40k fifth edition. They will be more than competitive with any razorspam or IG build, if you build around that idea.
You may as well use papercutouts for your infantry though, for they'll be as useful as infantry are in mech guard armies.
DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?
I think it's 125 9+Vet
Looks like per sister squad in a Rhino w/ Heavy Flamer Melta we'll be saving around 19-24 points (if you took extra armor from the old codex)
Not sure where you get those numbers - the old basic minimum Battle Sister squad with a VSS, melta, heavy flamer and extra armour Rhino comes in 4 points cheaper than the new version, if the rumours are to be believed. Except Tabitha earlier posted that most of today's rumours viz the second half of the Codex are incorrect.
Yes and no. It depends on terrain, the board, and setup. At midrange and close up, the twin-linked multimelta beats the twin lascannon by a large large amount...even when not in melta range. AP 1 is just that good. Also, 6++ on tanks doesn't suck.
Of course, if it's on a board with no cover and lascannons razors are going first...oh well.
On the flip side, the dominion immolators have scout. Inside, those immolators have either 4 flamers or 4 meltaguns. If the immolator player is going first, that free 12" move ior outflank is a big deal.
Kreedos wrote:SoB Squad = 110 + 10 + 12 (special weapons) + 14 vet + 5 book + 58 (Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke) = 209 points
209 - 185 = 24
That's where I'm getting those numbers from, seems like you were overpaying for your Sisters or not adding them right.
Ahh - well, Book is gone, so old sisters will come in at 204 - I forgot to account for smoke, hence the discrepency. New sisters, assuming Extra Armour is costed according to C:SM, heavy flamers at 20 points, and meltagun unchanged, come in at 205.
I believe the new Immolator might be 2 Melta shots instead of 1 twin linked shot.
The Immolator entry states "A Pair of Multi Meltas"
But then again it says "A pair of multi meltas instead of heavy flamers"
Which can mean the MM might be twin linked because the HF is twin linked and sounds like the Heavy Bolter is TL
Either way it pretty much works out to the same thing.
Mythal wrote:
Ahh - well, Book is gone, so old sisters will come in at 204 - I forgot to account for smoke, hence the discrepency. New sisters, assuming Extra Armour is costed according to C:SM, heavy flamers at 20 points, and meltagun unchanged, come in at 205.
I wouldn't pay 15 points for extra armor in the new codex honestly, it's just not worth 15 points, not at all.
ShumaGorath wrote:I'm just going to flat out say that SoBs were and still are significantly better then tactical marines and that the addition of a grenade isn't making them useless.
I'm curious, Shuma - what makes you make that assertion, assuming the 12 point figure for the basic SoB is accurate? I appreciate you'll be working off rumours for some of this comparison, but I've got to say that I'm not seeing it - yet.
I am, however, willing to read your justification for the above statement.
Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.
I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.
Just got to the cost of Inferno pistols, about choked.
The guy that wrote these rules should be sacked, old medieval days sacked.........
NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.
What about the Ogre Kingdoms models? I thought they would be good!
Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.
I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.
Yeah we'll see. But so far everything that has come forward looks like an ill conceived afterthought. It would be great to be proven wrong about it but you seem allot more optimistic than I am. I play grey knights too and at this point in codex discovery, or whatever you want to call it, I thought the new codex seemed awesome. Maybe because I never modeled up and termis with storm shields?
I know what you mean. I simply state the obvious, we all (most of us) thought the GKs were trashed with the removal of a lot of special rules, think of the shrouding when it was taken away, how on earth would the GK be able to survive against all those russ pancakes all of a sudden etc.
In the end GW is out to make money so they h a v e to make a competitive codex in order for people to buy them.
Sure, I agree, a 6+ inv save sucks ass and that 3++ was much better but I don´t think they will be uncompetitive, require a different play and approach, sure, get new fluff, yes but still remain strong, that or GW shot themselves in the foot.
Change is always bad, we are used to power faith and not watered down 6++ saves and I bet there will be units and wargear that nobody will take like in every codex (hey, purgation squads, legion of the damned, vanguards, psilencers...etc) but there must be positive additions thrown in as a whole to counter that, things we dont see until the first batrep post on dakka showing SoB as the winners of some tourney.
At 12 points, a minimum 10 and canoness can't take a jumppack..they're kinda restricted in role. Like tact marines, you have to committ a lot of points and effort into your troop choices, but unlike tact squads they aren't really very tactical, as basic sisters only really do one thing.
Might be GWs plan to let the codex be based on big blocks of bolter minis (sisters), with their damage coming from shooting that they do far better then the SM equivalent and for less points but then these blocks wont be as independent in turn, needing protection and support to counter their weaknesses by other more costly parts of the army.
Edit: I notice too that this may be a design shift or the start of a different trend in the way army books are done. For a while, basic troopers were going down in points. Orks, space marines, space wolves, Imperial guard...a lot of these codecies made their troops cheaper when they came out. Transports went down as well...rhinos to 35, chimeras to 55.
Yeah, there is a trend here, adding more wargear included in the price and removing flexibility (floating squad sizes penalized) and keeping things cheap for troop units.
Then having the player walk a balance game in number of troops and number of peripherials to offset troop weakness.
Not all codexes are like this but the power armoured ones tend to follow this trend.
Kreedos wrote:I'm wondering if the Cannoness command squad can take 3 special weps though.
Possible by if you are like me you will be taking the jump packs off of all of your Canoness models
In addition I am wondering about the greatest heroine in the sister's history not being an independent character. That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules. It is definitively an codex made just to legally kill Witch Hunters and the Allies rules and not meant for any other purpose.
As an aside my game store ordered a few additional copies and those are what came in, not the normal run which did not come in, so I suspect we were not supposed to get this issue yet.....
Kreedos wrote:I'm wondering if the Cannoness command squad can take 3 special weps though.
Possible by if you are like me you will be taking the jump packs off of all of your Canoness models
In addition I am wondering about the greatest heroine in the sister's history not being an independent character. That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules. It is definitively an codex made just to legally kill Witch Hunters and the Allies rules and not meant for any other purpose.
Ok at this point, you best be trollin.
We already know that Celestine is an IC, it says so in her rule page released in the first Sister WD. In fact every single HQ has the IC special rule.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules.
I think it just shows how far rules come from their initial efforts.
I have both mags here in front of me. I know what it said in the first one. I am saying the 2nd mag says different and is wrong. My point is what kind of proofing would have missed that?
Uh, check out the first mag, page 100, read on the left where it says Retributor with a Heavy Bolter. Looks a lot like a MM to me. There's a lot of small mistakes and lack of proofreading.
Doesnt mean she doesn't have it. There's things listed in the first half of the codex that need to be consulted in order to play the army, thus, if IC isn't written in both places she's still an IC regardless.
Kreedos wrote:Doesnt mean she doesn't have it. There's things listed in the first half of the codex that need to be consulted in order to play the army, thus, if IC isn't written in both places she's still an IC regardless.
But it indicates sloppiness on the part of GW, which is yet another indicator that they really didn't put any time and effort into ensuring that this Codex was actually anywhere near competitive.
Oh believe me, I hate them too, but we're going to have to work with what we've got, which isn't gold, but not exactly crap either.
Sisters aren't as much of a mainstay power unit as they used to be, they're more of just a troop choice, in line with the rest of the troops in most armies.
Dominions and Seraphim are amazing units, Seraphim are the best shooters in the codex (as far as pushing out wounds) and dominions fill a spot in the WH dex that was lacking, some kind of surprise unit.
Cannoness and Celestian squad are overcosted, but a single 50 pt confessor/priest isn't, if the focus isn't put so much on the HQ, more points are to be had.
The point of mentioning that Celestine isn't an IC in the 2nd part is that like the S4 Arcoflagellant and Cruddance's 10 man command unit the lack of proof reading shows that they don't care about this publication enough to make sure that glarring errors are checked before shoving this out the door.
He specifically states his army was from and old cities of death campaign but builds it for new sisters or something, the whole thing was mashed up and crap pretty much. We all know the rules mongers probably aren't the best gamers.
I understand that GW staff will never make a non boneheaded, competitive army since they are trying to make stuff that looks cool on the table top which I understand and am fine with. However I expect what they design to be a legal list especially when they wrote the rules themselves. How do you make that kind of mistake??
So let me get this straight ... first mag has St. Celestine being an IC but S4 Arco-Flagellants, and second mag has St. Celestine not being an IC but S5 Arco-Flagellants? Can we pick and choose now?
Sheesh ... what a mess, in so many ways. Here's hoping at least the online PDF will be consistent enough to actually count as acceptable rules.
I understand that GW staff will never make a non boneheaded, competitive army since they are trying to make stuff that looks cool on the table top which I understand and am fine with. However I expect what they design to be a legal list especially when they wrote the rules themselves. How do you make that kind of mistake??
i'm not positive, and I'm certainly not suggesting that WD pays any attention to proofreading, but given that he talks about "starting a command squad", "getting another squad finished", and Saint Celestine, might the picture simply be of those models? The command squad he is starting, the squad he is wanting to finish, and Saint Celestine. It's entirely possible that this is just a group shot of "what I'm working on right now". Maybe none of those projects are finished, but it's certainly not iron-clad evidence that he's building an illegal command squad.
Pyriel- wrote:
I know what you mean. I simply state the obvious, we all (most of us) thought the GKs were trashed with the removal of a lot of special rules, think of the shrouding when it was taken away, how on earth would the GK be able to survive against all those russ pancakes all of a sudden etc....
See, I thought anyone who saw the GK codex immediately recognized how powerful it is. I have seen the SoB codex and I think we 'know' about 90% of what it is and it is in no danger of being called powerful...
With the mistakes apparent between the 2 magazines alone, never mind how badly Sisters have been torn up I plan on getting a list of the GW board of Directors and their addresses.
Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
It might be enough to get the author of this mess canned at least.
Smitty0305 wrote:GW wants you to buy SoB models.....so Im pretty sure they will be competitive regardless.
Only in a general "we'd like you to spend your money on our products instead of someone else's products" sense.
Sisters are horribly over-priced, and you can only get them via special order through GW's website or a GW store (once again, via special order). Your local non-GW store can't get them at all. Or in other words, you pay too much money for them (relative to everything else that GW sells) and you have to jump through hoops in order to buy them. That's not exactly the kind of attitude that you expect a company to take with product that they really want you to buy.
This codex is not competitive. No one will be going to stores to buy models to play this codex, and I have been playing it since the last codex came out.
They will have to FAQ the 2 magazines just so the codex can be played in a tourny.
Some notice that prevent repentias take rhino in the 2nd part? Or is confirmed that a dominion squad must be 10 sob to take 4 Speacial weapons ?
Reading the post and until know definitive points and definitive wargear im planning something like this ( about 2500 points )
HQ
-Cannoness squad command, 3 MM in Inmolator
-Celestine/Jacobus
Elite
-9 repentia and 1 mistress with rhino
-9 repentia and 1 mistress with rhino
-9 repentia and 1 mistress with rhino
-Troops
- SOB with SSV 2 Melta with rhino
- SOB with SSV 2 Melta with rhino
- SOB with SSV 2 Melta with rhino
- SOB with SSV 2 Melta with rhino
-Fast
- 5/10 Dominion with 4 Flammer/Melta in rhino/inmolator ( waiting rules and costs )
- 5/10 Dominion with 4 Flammer/Melta in rhino/inmolator ( waiting rules and costs )
- 5/10 Dominion with 4 Flammer/Melta in rhino/inmolator ( waiting rules and costs )
-Heavy
-Exorcist
-Exorcist
-Exorcist / Retri with 4 HB in Inmo
Well without cost points i know that is stupid make a list, but the brain machine must start, i have faith in the repentia if they can take rhinos to compensate the CC lack and I3 of Celestian.
The only things that have me excited are Death Cult Assassins, the possibility of Repentia in vehicles, and Celestine. Seraphim might be sick with their low points cost. Can dominions scout in vehicles? What about running Repentia squads in Multi-Melta Immolators? 3 of those, 3 maxed out Seraphim squads, Celestine, and some troops. It almost sounds like fun.
Truth be told ... I can see why transports for Repentia would be nice, but I really don't think it would suit their fluff. The difficulty of fielding Repentia should be addressed differently (read, special rules) rather than with transports.
Lynata wrote:Truth be told ... I can see why transports for Repentia would be nice, but I really don't think it would suit their fluff. The difficulty of fielding Repentia should be addressed differently (read, special rules) rather than with transports.
They have to get to the battlefield somehow. It's not like they walk all the way out there to begin with; what's to stop their transport from taking them another 36 inches?
That said, 12pts for a Bolter wielding 3+/6++sv BS4 Ld8/9 unit with a special (if not 100% reliable) ability is bad at all, I'd take them over many other similarly costed or stat'd units like dire avengers, stomtroopers, carapace vets, SM scouts, etc.
Dire avengers, storm troopers, carapace vets, and sm scouts are considered uncompetitive.
WHen they are taken, they tend to be taken as minimum sized squads to either max out heavy weapons or max out transports.
True, and even these supposedly nerfed SoB's are significantly better. They are one of the few units that GW doesn't totally screw up in that points range. GW does elite infantry and weeny infantry well, but never gets the medium units right.
That being said, scouts and carapace vets are a much better buy than SoBimo. Scouts have atsknf, access to sniperrifles, missile launchers, and camo cloaks, as well as a marine stat line.
Sniper rifles are sadly rather poopy, and the 3+sv makes all the difference in the world. You don't see Scouts in most competitive SM armies typically unless they are there to min/max troops.
Vets are vets...just carapace vets are overpriced vets that do the same thing as their 7 point bretheren. Of course, SoB can't take 3 special weapons, a lascannon, and a chimera in a scoring troop choice.
Right, but given the choice between Carapace Vets (practically identical to the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers) and the rumored SoB's and associated Rhino cost reduction, I think you'd see the sisters taken much more often. S4 guns over mostly S3 guns, and most importantly a 3+ save make all the difference in the world, and all you're really losing is 1 special weapon (vets rarely take heavies).
Pretty much every competitive build with dire avengers take 5, no sgt or upgrades just to add another scoring wave serpent.
Or they run 10 with an exarch and bladestorm, they're not bad when set up that way, just not a whole lot inbetween. That said, when you get Eldar wishlist threads, you aren't seeing too much about DA's, but rather Guardians.
scuddman wrote:This argument about grenades is funny.
Veterans in IG are 7 points and come with grenades. Basic troopers are 5. Compared to their old codex, they went DOWN in points and gained grenades.
Keep in mind they lost Infiltrate and Deep Strike and Doctrines as well.
The real problem with the basic squad isn't really their points. It's really their squad options and size for their points. If you could take only 5 with 2 special weapons and a heavy and an immolator, basic squads would be a really really good buy even at 13 points.
It'd be the new min/max cheddar army at that point however.
God, just looked at GW board of directors.... Just 5 members.
Tom Kirby chairman
Mark Wells CEO
Kevin Rountree COO
Independent directors
Chris Myatt
Nick Donaldson
Both of the "independent" members look to be in violation of the the Combined Code because both of them have been on the board over 9 years.
Mark Wells, chief executive officer of Games Workshop, said:
“2010/11 has seen satisfactory performance, driven by improved gross margins and good cost control
leading to a healthy cash inflow. Although sales were down in the first half, Games Workshop
delivered improved results in the second half as the focus on customer service training for Hobby
centre managers and investment in new product development started to feed through into results.
Games Workshop is in good shape. We know what we need to do to remain successful and to grow.”
JB_Man wrote:They have to get to the battlefield somehow. It's not like they walk all the way out there to begin with; what's to stop their transport from taking them another 36 inches?
By that logic the entire army would need to be mechanized, though.
Nah, delivery is most likely done by transport fliers, though I absolutely do not deem it impossible that the Mistress makes her girls do a forced march as well. It'd just feel to be more brutal, thus fitting. All depending on how far the battlefield is away from their base, of course.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
85 percent market share of what.
Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!
Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
85 percent market share of what.
Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer. So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!
Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.
A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. They don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. Thats such a ridiculously broad and large category that it's practically meaningless. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe for fantasy and science fiction settings, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors (I doubt they ever included heroclix for instance). Games workshop isn't a large enough company to have that level of global marketshare and it doesn't have a system to track those numbers accurately in any event.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
85 percent market share of what.
Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!
Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.
A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. The don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors.
Thats a very good point. Thats the number I heard a few years ago during my training period for a GW store. True, I should have thought my statement through as they are suspect.
Still, either way, they're the biggest boys on the block when it comes to miniature games in US, Europe and Canada and that's nothing to ignore. They're not stupid, I know GW bashing is really popular but they wouldn't still be around if they are all run by the slowed monkeys wearing boxing gloves like the message boards screech that they are.
I also felt the question of market share was unnecessary, hence my pithy response.
Actually it's quite easy for a company to be around despite being led by people who have no damn clue what they're doing.
Remember, this is not a perfectly capitalist society, nor is it one where people have all the information they should have (nevermind have it available to them at the time of purchase). Frequently perception alone drives a company to succeed... even if it's built on a house of cards.
Melissia wrote:Actually it's quite easy for a company to be around despite being led by people who have no damn clue what they're doing.
Remember, this is not a perfectly capitalist society, nor is it one where people have all the information they should have (nevermind have it available to them at the time of purchase). Frequently perception alone drives a company to succeed... even if it's built on a house of cards.
I swore you were somehow going to blame socialism or obama for their continued existence.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.
Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.
85 percent market share of what.
Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!
Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.
A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. The don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors.
Thats a very good point. Thats the number I heard a few years ago during my training period for a GW store. True, I should have thought my statement through as they are suspect.
Still, either way, they're the biggest boys on the block when it comes to miniature games in US, Europe and Canada and that's nothing to ignore. They're not stupid, I know GW bashing is really popular but they wouldn't still be around if they are all run by the slowed monkeys wearing boxing gloves like the message boards screech that they are.
I also felt the question of market share was unnecessary, hence my pithy response.
From a business standpoint they actually are pretty idiotic. There business model is plainly unsustainable and they've been losing sales volume in significant ways over the past few years.
Melissia wrote:No, I'm sane. You're thinking of Tea Party fanatics.
Good, I have a hard time being Irish in America.
I don't think they're idiotic. They may just be clinging to an old business model. It had served them well in the passed and they're probably just reluctant to change. Either that or - shockingly - we don't have all the information and are not the heads of a mulit-national corporation - and they're trying their best in a situation where competition has increased at the same time the global economy has imploded and leaves less money for luxury goods.
Melissia wrote:No, I'm sane. You're thinking of Tea Party fanatics.
Good, I have a hard time being Irish in America.
I don't think they're idiotic. They may just be clinging to an old business model. It had served them well in the passed and they're probably just reluctant to change. Either that or - shockingly - we don't have all the information and are not the heads of a mulit-national corporation - and they're trying their best in a situation where competition has increased at the same time the global economy has imploded and leaves less money for luxury goods.
They have lost 40% of their sales volume in a few short years due largely to price increases. The industry of miniatures wargaming has had its volume increase according to distributors like alliance, indicating strongly that GW is pricing itself out of it's core market. They are continuing to do this, despite knowing full well that there is a price cieling at which their sales will drop to unsustainable numbers and the game will cease to have the active player base required to actually initiate new players into the hobby. They will then collapse.
They are a shareholder run company that is there purely to sustain profits at this point. Unless a major change in their method of business is made they will go out of business in the next few years. They are a company largely composed of idiots and greed.
All companies are run by greed, that's a job of a company. To make money. It's part of a corporate charter that they have to.
Maybe (probably) they're ill informed and doing things badly but they're not actively trying to destroy us witchhunters players.
They're trying to make money off of us, as they have been from the beginning. They're not going about it the right way in my opinion but none of us here have run a company like that for nearly 35 years. When any of us have then we get to make concrete claims about their business plan.
I too believe they're going about it the wrong way but I - and 99% of the rest of you out there - don't really have the right to say what they should do or expect them to listen.
If you hate the game you can stop playing. Speak with your dollars (Euro, pounds or Canadian and Australian dollars) and stop buying. Don't speak with your fingers and complain on a part of the internet they will never go.
Celtic Strike wrote:They're trying to make money off of us, as they have been from the beginning. They're not going about it the right way in my opinion but none of us here have run a company like that for nearly 35 years. When any of us have then we get to make concrete claims about their business plan.
One does not have to experience something to comment on it.
Or have you yet thrown yourself in front of a moving bus? You can't say that's stupid without doing it, so go on, do it!
Melissia wrote: Or have you yet thrown yourself in front of a moving bus? You can't say that's stupid without doing it, so go on, do it!
I was fairly sure that getting hit by a bus would be painful but until I was actually run over by a drunken redneck in a pick up I had NO real way of comparing them. Then I got to talk from experience, not just supposition and logic exercises.
Celtic Strike wrote:I was fairly sure that getting hit buy a bus would be painful but until I was actually run over by a drunken redneck in a pick up I had NO real way of comparing them.
But you knew that throwing yourself intentionally in front of a bus was a bad idea right?
Right? I AM talking to a sane and intelligent person... aren't I?
Celtic Strike wrote:If you hate the game you can stop playing. Speak with your dollars (Euro, pounds or Canadian and Australian dollars) and stop buying. Don't speak with your fingers and complain on a part of the internet they will never go.
But I like the game, I just don't like the $200 per SoB squad.
Melissia, how many times has someone whose never played your army come up to you and told you how you *Should* have played your game? or worse still, someone whose really new to the hobby telling you what you *Should* do to win. That's really annoying and they don't have any experience do they? Yet you do because you've played them. You know what your army can and can't do, not just look at it from a paper perspective. It's the same thing.
I play tau, I'm sick of having people telling me that if I want to win I have to max out on Firewarrior squads with full upgrades because they're just *So* awesome on paper. Most Tau players know that you should min/max them for suits and broadsides.
I'm not defending them. I'm just saying that our bitching is a pointless and time wasting exercise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u wrote:[ But I like the game, I just don't like the $200 per SoB squad.
I'm right there with ya buddy, I'm right there with ya. lol
Vaktathi wrote:]How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.
How often? Depends. On situations and units- better to charge some days then get charged....with the old acts no, some of those things were NOT things seraphim would have a hard time with. Never had problems with CSM, or grey hunters, BA assualt marines.
if your seraphim got shot to piss, your using them wrong.
I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.
Almost never used krak- only a handful of times on serpahim. NEVER on sisters. No need with the S5 act. NOT worth one point increase, not with the nerf bat hit overall.
Its not the end of the world no. But worse then you are making it out to be yes.
But would you rather have no acts of faith and NO krak or no acts of faith AND some krak?
ALSO, I didn't INTENTIONALLY get run over by a pick up. The driver and me were having a gentleman's disagreement and that's how he chose to resolve our conversation.
Celtic Strike wrote:Melissia, how many times has someone whose never played your army come up to you and told you how you *Should* have played your game?
So? That doesn't mean that they cannot have any insight into the game.
The fact remains, you know without doing it that jumping off of a skyscraper is probably a bad idea and you shouldn't do it. You know without doing it that stabbing yourself in the eye is a bad idea, and you probably shouldn't do it. You know without doing it that giving all of your life savings to a broke, crack-addict OCD gambler and telling him to share his winnings with you is a bad idea, and you probably shouldn't do it.
Just because you haven't experienced something yourself doesn't mean you should shut up until you have experienced it. Or are you the kind of person who doesn't think a fire is hot until he sticks his hand into it and feels the burn himself?
Because if so, I'll just put you on ignore right now as you are not worth the aggravation of talking to-- I loathe stupid logic like this. It makes me want to tear someone's throat out. But thankfully, unlike people who think like you seem to want to be thinking, I'm smart enough to know that's a bad idea without going out and doing it.
I know, overreacting, but this utterly illogical line of reasoning from you is getting on my nerves.
I still failed.... Yep, much simpler than rolling over or under the size of the unit was. 
