34925
Post by: Hologram
Finally a non-metal warrior priest.
Going to have fun with some conversions into 40k. 
10347
Post by: Fafnir
The witch hunter and war priest looked really good, and I originally throught they were plastic kits. I got really excited, they'd make for great Inquisitional henchmen. I could see myself buying several of each.
And then I realized they were failcast.
So scratch that.
50912
Post by: thephenomenalZ
Awesome!!! Can't wait for Witch Hunter!
11
Post by: ph34r
Fafnir wrote:The witch hunter and war priest looked really good, and I originally throught they were plastic kits. I got really excited, they'd make for great Inquisitional henchmen. I could see myself buying several of each.
And then I realized they were failcast.
So scratch that.
So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
ph34r wrote:Fafnir wrote:The witch hunter and war priest looked really good, and I originally throught they were plastic kits. I got really excited, they'd make for great Inquisitional henchmen. I could see myself buying several of each.
And then I realized they were failcast.
So scratch that.
So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
Have you ever seen other topics such as the Mad Robot Minis one? People love one or the other 
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Pft, all it means is more Witch Hunters for me!
53116
Post by: helium42
ph34r wrote:Fafnir wrote:The witch hunter and war priest looked really good, and I originally throught they were plastic kits. I got really excited, they'd make for great Inquisitional henchmen. I could see myself buying several of each.
And then I realized they were failcast.
So scratch that.
So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material? As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
Some people, myself included, have been burned so many times with finecast that we absolutely will not buy any more of it. I don't find it to be a bit odd at all. I'm looking forward to the day that GW gets its casting process and quality control to a higher standard so that I can purchase certain models that I really like.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
ph34r wrote:Fafnir wrote:The witch hunter and war priest looked really good, and I originally throught they were plastic kits. I got really excited, they'd make for great Inquisitional henchmen. I could see myself buying several of each.
And then I realized they were failcast.
So scratch that.
So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
I won't speak for Fafnir, but it certainly is for me. I don't buy hardly any non-plastics anymore. And I certainly don't buy Failcast.
5470
Post by: sebster
lasgunpacker wrote:Technically it is that the horses are growing to match their oversized riders, rather than the horses being to small. They are already too big for historical/realistic horses.
I don't get what this means. If there's a guy on a horse, then the two things in scale to one another are the horse and the man. One can't be in scale with the other is too small. If the rider gets bigger, then the horse doesn't remain 'in scale', they are simply not in scale with each other. Automatically Appended Next Post: ph34r wrote:So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
The internet has no place for reasoned, moderated opinion. Something is either the best thing that has ever been, or the worst thing that's ever been. You must pick one hill, climb upon it and swear to all and sundry that you will die defending it.
18072
Post by: TBD
sebster wrote:The internet has no place for reasoned, moderated opinion. Something is either the best thing that has ever been, or the worst thing that's ever been. You must pick one hill, climb upon it and swear to all and sundry that you will die defending it.
That often applies yes, but in this case it is a totally off the mark nonsense comment.
A lot of customers simply do not want the overpriced garbage that is "finecast" anymore after having to deal with flawed product too many times. It's quality has not improved since it first showed it's ugly face, and until it does they will waste no more money on it. That is a VERY reasoned, moderated opinion based on experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with climbing hills and swearing by whatever. The only way GW ever gets the message = not buying.
So yes, plastic or "finecast" does make a huge difference.
35710
Post by: Talarn Blackshard
*Watches GW death star his wallet*
PEEEEWWWW BOOM..
*Sigh ... raises fancy purple and yellow and white banner*
Ostermark shall rise again!
17692
Post by: Farmer
I was looking forward to wood elves and brets getting a new book
602
Post by: lasgunpacker
sebster wrote:lasgunpacker wrote:Technically it is that the horses are growing to match their oversized riders, rather than the horses being to small. They are already too big for historical/realistic horses.
I don't get what this means. If there's a guy on a horse, then the two things in scale to one another are the horse and the man. One can't be in scale with the other is too small. If the rider gets bigger, then the horse doesn't remain 'in scale', they are simply not in scale with each other.
The horses are unchanged from their introduction and are somewhat in scale to the rest of the Empire line (although again, they are a bit too large). The knights are newer than the horses, and are a larger scale than the horses. So their scale to one another is one thing, and their relative scale to the rest of the Empire line is another.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Farmer wrote:I was looking forward to wood elves and brets getting a new book
You're going to have to wait for a while 
Last I heard I think WoC were next (Yes, another somewhat recent 7th book )
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
I was kind of disappointed hearing that Empire was getting a new book-they don't really need it at all. But then I saw the new Karl Franz model. Hot damn, I want that thing! That griffon is amazing. I'm kinda bummed I sold my Empire army a few years ago to pay bills...maybe it's time to restart it...
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
ph34r wrote:So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
It's definitely that way for me. I'm overseas so anything I buy will be online and I just won't risk my money sight unseen on a product with such a bad reputation.
49823
Post by: silent25
Kid_Kyoto wrote:ph34r wrote:So the difference between "extremely excited, will buy multiple" and "disappointed, will buy zero" for you is the material?
As a "failcost" customer myself, I find that stance to be a bit odd to me.
It's definitely that way for me. I'm overseas so anything I buy will be online and I just won't risk my money sight unseen on a product with such a bad reputation.
While three of my four experiences with failcast have been positive, they have all been in-store purchases. My personal conspiracy theory is GW knows about the flaws, but keeps them going to force people to buy in the store so they can open and inspect them there.
As for the figs, while I like the witch hunter, it isn't a Warhammer witch hunter. The puritan hat had become a standard feature on them for a while now and was very prevalent in Warhammer MMO.
One extra note, for those that are mocking the idea of cavalry halberds, while not common in Europe, they were used in China. So the idea wasn't pulled out of the air. If anything, the designer might have been playing a little too much Dynasty Warriors.
5470
Post by: sebster
TBD wrote:That often applies yes, but in this case it is a totally off the mark nonsense comment.
A lot of customers simply do not want the overpriced garbage that is "finecast" anymore after having to deal with flawed product too many times. It's quality has not improved since it first showed it's ugly face, and until it does they will waste no more money on it. That is a VERY reasoned, moderated opinion based on experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with climbing hills and swearing by whatever. The only way GW ever gets the message = not buying.
So yes, plastic or "finecast" does make a huge difference.
Nah, see it's still extreme though. A moderated argument would be "I like these new models, but they're in finecast so I'd urge everyone to check the model in the store".
And sales tracking isn't quite the exact science where GW could tell the difference between people not buying a model because it's in finecast, or because people just aren't that crazy about that model. Whereas if people went into the stores, bought it and then upon seeing it was a dodgy print take another off the shelf, then GW would get the lesson - nothing could convince them more than seeing a massive number of models returned as defective. Automatically Appended Next Post: lasgunpacker wrote:The horses are unchanged from their introduction and are somewhat in scale to the rest of the Empire line (although again, they are a bit too large). The knights are newer than the horses, and are a larger scale than the horses. So their scale to one another is one thing, and their relative scale to the rest of the Empire line is another.
Oh I get what you mean now. Fair point.
Ultimately, though, to me the more recent horses with more defined musculature look a lot cooler. And yet while GW is adding those to new models, they're still cranking out the old horses for anyone that wants a unit of knights.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
They don't seem to have much motivation to redo some of the older models, instead they seem to be focusing upon removing those larger units which did not have a plastic option and granting said option while also adding a few new units here and there in plastic.
It's sad there are no new Knights, but it is nice to have some new units available I think.
35485
Post by: GoldenKaos
There's something anatomically wrong with those big griffons, I don't like them at all...
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Deathworld Missions... Awesome! I love sending my guard in just to have them die by plant... or frickn' big insect... or spikey styrofoam ball of toothpicks..
39004
Post by: biccat
sebster wrote:TBD wrote:That often applies yes, but in this case it is a totally off the mark nonsense comment.
A lot of customers simply do not want the overpriced garbage that is "finecast" anymore after having to deal with flawed product too many times. It's quality has not improved since it first showed it's ugly face, and until it does they will waste no more money on it. That is a VERY reasoned, moderated opinion based on experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with climbing hills and swearing by whatever. The only way GW ever gets the message = not buying.
So yes, plastic or "finecast" does make a huge difference.
Nah, see it's still extreme though. A moderated argument would be "I like these new models, but they're in finecast so I'd urge everyone to check the model in the store".
I don't think it's "extreme."
I've certainly been turned off of Finecast because of the mistakes I've seen. I've made the conscious decision not to buy Finecast simply because it's clear that GW doesn't know what they're doing with resin. If I need a character that I can't make from a plastic box I'd rather get it from a third party than risk GW finecast.
46636
Post by: English Assassin
reds8n wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=21900012a
.. Death World battles for the 40k players too eh ?
Just for amusement and context, here's the issue in which those Empire warhorse sprues were new...
35485
Post by: GoldenKaos
biccat wrote:sebster wrote:TBD wrote:That often applies yes, but in this case it is a totally off the mark nonsense comment.
A lot of customers simply do not want the overpriced garbage that is "finecast" anymore after having to deal with flawed product too many times. It's quality has not improved since it first showed it's ugly face, and until it does they will waste no more money on it. That is a VERY reasoned, moderated opinion based on experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with climbing hills and swearing by whatever. The only way GW ever gets the message = not buying.
So yes, plastic or "finecast" does make a huge difference.
Nah, see it's still extreme though. A moderated argument would be "I like these new models, but they're in finecast so I'd urge everyone to check the model in the store".
I don't think it's "extreme."
I've certainly been turned off of Finecast because of the mistakes I've seen. I've made the conscious decision not to buy Finecast simply because it's clear that GW doesn't know what they're doing with resin. If I need a character that I can't make from a plastic box I'd rather get it from a third party than risk GW finecast.
It is not extreme to boycott a product line that has been frequently faulty and unfit for purpose. It's unacceptable that many of the in-store answers to this is 'just fix it up with Green Stuff' - since we effectively have to finish sculpting the £20 miniature we just bought, not to mention the fact that many of these are warped in ways no amount of green stuff can fix.
I love Warrior Priests to bits, they're one of my favorite parts of Warhammer lore in general, but I'm not touching this Finecast Priest that's coming out. I've still got my old metal Warrior Priest with 2 hand weapons, who I think is a better model overall.
37755
Post by: Harriticus
GW is really churning out one WHFB army book after another over the last 1.5 years. Tomb Kings, Orcs, Ogres, Vamps, now Empire.
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
I think its cool the empire now have over sized monster to lead there heroes into battle.
Those gryphons are awesme.
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
English Assassin wrote:reds8n wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=21900012a
.. Death World battles for the 40k players too eh ?
Just for amusement and context, here's the issue in which those Empire warhorse sprues were new...
I still love that cover art. So that means this upcoming Empire book will be my 4th, tied with Undead/ VC!
573
Post by: Clarence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E4r2swcAITo
Video is up that showcases the models a little better. Quite sexy, I have to say.
1+ armour Monstrous cav?
Ok, tempted. Just gotta see their points cost.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
The Warrior Priest from Volkmar's Popemobile is really...Vampire-y.
Blargh! I come to bless your crops! Blargh!
8742
Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Kanluwen wrote:The Warrior Priest from Volkmar's Popemobile is really...Vampire-y.
Blargh! I come to bless your crops! Blargh!
Looks like Darth Sidious.
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
Kanluwen wrote:The Warrior Priest from Volkmar's Popemobile is really...Vampire-y.
Blargh! I come to bless your crops! Blargh!
Gotta say, this is the only new Empire model I don't like.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1530074a  NOOOOOO!!!! Anyone got a metal one they're willing to sell me? I was even thinking of ordering the metal version yesterday, but $9 shipping...
18045
Post by: Snord
timetowaste85 wrote:
Gotta say, this is the only new Empire model I don't like.
I'm finding it hard to love the new wizardy types on the new war machines. They all have large, ugly heads, although I guess Volkmar is okay. The demigryph riders are also uninspired. Empire heads used to be very characterful and natural. A newbie sculptor perhaps?
The griffon looks pretty good in the advance order photos. As do the 2 new plastic character figures. Overall, I don't think these are up to the standard of the last round of Empire plastics.
123
Post by: Alpharius
The size of the hands on that new Priest!
I'm guessing the ladies in his parish are against any vows of celibacy...
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
Im thinking of buying the engineer even though i dont play empire.
Or the Amber wizard. He looks pretty cool.
19548
Post by: cpt_fishcakes
Great Googly Moogly 18 quid for a 20 year old Grand Master on an equally ancient plastic horse 
They have always been nice models but that price is the far end of insane.
An avid fan of the Griffon now. It would be nice if the armour was optional and not structurally integral to the model though.
39827
Post by: scarletsquig
I'll buy the new plastic characters, for £8.
Finecrap for £10 though, on models that cost just £8 in a superior material yesterday? No thanks, GW.
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
Platuan4th wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/ gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1530074a
NOOOOOO!!!!
Anyone got a metal one they're willing to sell me?
I was even thinking of ordering the metal version yesterday, but $9 shipping...
Dude, get the Abatars of War priest. The hands are actually in proportion to the rest of the model. 
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
Avatars of war one is terrible compared to GW's
21358
Post by: Dysartes
Interesting definition of terrible, Johnny.
44886
Post by: Arm.chair.general
WOW, once again stunning models from GW! Shame I am starting Orcs and Goblins otherwise I would buy some Empire gear.
28379
Post by: Dr. Cheesesteak
Hmm...KoBS, White Wolf, and Knights Panther Grand Masters all available in finecast. I may be a potentially new Empire player - what kind of options do the Orderly Knights box come with? GW Hammers (for White Wolf Knights)? Panther helms? etc? GW site says they do, but seems like a lot to stuff in one box.
50326
Post by: curran12
Those are some pretty damn snappy models. I'm loving the Hurricanum. If it weren't finished already, I'd have loved to convert that into something Dark Elf!
Might do it anyway!
19148
Post by: Aerethan
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Hmm...KoBS, White Wolf, and Knights Panther Grand Masters all available in finecast. I may be a potentially new Empire player - what kind of options do the Orderly Knights box come with? GW Hammers (for White Wolf Knights)? Panther helms? etc? GW site says they do, but seems like a lot to stuff in one box.
The box comes with Reiksguard(or KoBS, Generic orders), Knights Panther and White Wolves heads. Then there's WW great weapons, a set of KP shields and a set of Reiksguard/generic shields.
I have like a thousand KP heads in my Empire bits box.
I'll have to track down the metal Grandmasters and make a unit of each of the main orders.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
The Hot Pot Catapult in Finecast. Huh. I was not expecting this. Too bad mortars are S2 in the new book, otherwise I might even buy one (off ebay, in lead).
30103
Post by: Void_walker
Agamemnon2 wrote:The Hot Pot Catapult in Finecast. Huh. I was not expecting this. Too bad mortars are S2 in the new book, otherwise I might even buy one (off ebay, in lead).
Really? So is that in the WD or the new book that you have read...or is that just a rumor??
I find it a bit strange with the finecasting the old stuff eg hot pot and all the valten's, so I'm guessing they could be in the book. Well I already have all the old metal one's so won't be grabbing any of the rehashed ones.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Void_walker wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:The Hot Pot Catapult in Finecast. Huh. I was not expecting this. Too bad mortars are S2 in the new book, otherwise I might even buy one (off ebay, in lead).
Really? So is that in the WD or the new book that you have read...or is that just a rumor??
I find it a bit strange with the finecasting the old stuff eg hot pot and all the valten's, so I'm guessing they could be in the book. Well I already have all the old metal one's so won't be grabbing any of the rehashed ones.
Read it off Warseer, they seemed unusually sure of themselves. And the Hot Pot is not in the book, even the blurb for it on the GW site mentions it's a great proxy for a mortar or a rocket battery.
27051
Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Agree with earlier poster - can't beleive they're milking the grandmaster models after 20 years. Shame on GW. New models look awesome, but I'm glad I got out of fantasy; all this focus on big kits and monsters has spoiled the game for me. And don't get me started on storm of magic!!
32785
Post by: RaptorsTalon
Has the empire always had this? Or is it new?
56307
Post by: unmercifulconker
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530082a
Have these guys always been available? Cas I gotta say, £40 for 3 models is.......dayum
edit: nope new set
30103
Post by: Void_walker
Hot pot was in the orginal list. And the "heroes" was part of the Storm of Chaos campaign so not new really.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
unmercifulconker wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530082a
Have these guys always been available? Cas I gotta say, £40 for 3 models is.......dayum
edit: nope new set
Since Storm of Chaos in the early 2000's. They were previously available separately, this is simply a set of 3 out of the 4 together.
Good luck getting the Valten with Ghal Maraz on foot for a decent price.
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
Valten is listed as being able to make a captain-I don't think he'll actually be a special character in the book. I hope someone can prove me wrong-I'd want to use Valten as himself.
47300
Post by: JeneralJoe117
Might pick up the priest and engineer man person for my Vostroyans. Very tasty models.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
...The Grandmasters cost £18 each?
Is this for real?
Single part metal models with a plastic shield and horse.....£18 each in Finecast?
Oh lordy. That's a couple of quid shy an entire BOX of Knights.
Glad I have an unpainted Grandmaster of the Blazing Sun. Perhaps I should sell him.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
Got my WD this morning
don't really like the new Griffins - they just overwhelm the rider too much for me - prefered the Elf one in Island of Blood.
I do really like the new arcane Battle Alters - so many cool extras for use elsewhere - although I do think the Luminark is going to end up with my Skaven
The Light Battle Wizard Lord is great and so are the Acolytes.
The War Alter is also really cool
I like the Demigryph Knights - suprisingly understated.
The Witch hunter model is really really cool
like the Amber Battle Wizard and Warrior Priest
Would of like a few female Wizards to go with my Forgeworld one on Dragon (espeically since they could make great vampires)
Lots of cool things to buy
32222
Post by: protomane0
According to white dwarf, marius leitdorf will be an actual special character, with his own rules.... and quoteth I from the veritable tome of knowledge *cough cough*
''Marius Leitdorf is the Elector count of Averland and a special character in warhammer: the empire. The resin model is blah blah blah failcost''
33033
Post by: kenshin620
protomane0 wrote:According to white dwarf, marius leitdorf will be an actual special character, with his own rules.... and quoteth I from the veritable tome of knowledge *cough cough*
''Marius Leitdorf is the Elector count of Averland and a special character in warhammer: the empire. The resin model is blah blah blah failcost''
Not to mention he has his stats on the GW website. I wonder how will the SC will fare out. Most of the new ones have been there for flavor imo, no auto includes (which is good so most of them arent OP, and which is bad since quite a few of them arent that good)
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1530054a
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
Dysartes wrote:
Interesting definition of terrible, Johnny.
Ever seen this boy in person? One of AOW worse sculpts and compared the GW's warrior priest with gw it is terrible
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
protomane0 wrote:According to white dwarf, marius leitdorf will be an actual special character, with his own rules.... and quoteth I from the veritable tome of knowledge *cough cough*
''Marius Leitdorf is the Elector count of Averland and a special character in warhammer: the empire. The resin model is blah blah blah failcost''
Well, I'm glad I kept my metal Marius when he was recently released a year and a half ago. Woohoo, my favorite EC is back in the book!!
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
@Johnny: Well I own it so yeah, and it is the opposite of terrible. To each their own I guess ...
2648
Post by: Fenriswulf
I hope they have done a re-vamp of the old Empire miniatures, because a lot of their rank and file are just atrocious.
If not, I'd rather buy Wargames Factory Samurais and Ashigaru miniatures and make a Nippon Empire army instead, with a liberal dash of Perry Miniatures and other manufacturers. New Demigryphs could easily be replaced by temple dogs or Oriental dragons.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Agamemnon2 wrote:Void_walker wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:The Hot Pot Catapult in Finecast. Huh. I was not expecting this.
Really? So is that in the WD or the new book that you have read...or is that just a rumor??
Read it off Warseer, they seemed unusually sure of themselves.
Just look on the Advance Orders Website, no need to speculate or search Warseer:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1530078a
unmercifulconker wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440090a&prodId=prod1530082a
Have these guys always been available? Cas I gotta say, £40 for 3 models is.......dayum
edit: nope new set
These characters were released in metal for the old Storm of Chaos campagne, now rereleased in Finecast and as a set.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Fenriswulf wrote:I hope they have done a re-vamp of the old Empire miniatures, because a lot of their rank and file are just atrocious.
Well if they are, they're going to be a later wave
Most likely though, no
Orcs and Goblins: No changes to existing units besides making plastics for metals
Tomb Kings: No changes to existing units besides Tomb Guard (metal to plastic once again) and Ushabiti (new variant)
Ogres: No changes to existing units
Vampire Counts: No changes to existing units besides making plastics for metals (again)
GW may dump a lot more money than most other companies on new plastic molds but so far they have been clinging onto old molds for a while now
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Most of the models are quite good in my opinion. Except for the laser thingy. Looks more like something Necrons would field rather than a medieval contraption. Dakka Dakka!
I do agree however that some rank and file empire troops do need a re-vamp.
17796
Post by: Slinky
The "laser thing" looks utterly different from different angles,it's just a series of lenses rather than a solid cannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Greatsword models are great, but the State Troops are definitely pretty poor.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Slinky wrote:The "laser thing" looks utterly different from different angles,it's just a series of lenses rather than a solid cannon.
I know but still, a big laser cannon?  (because that's what it is)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Greatsword models are great, but the State Troops are definitely pretty poor.
Agreed on that.
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
Flaggies are special choices now!
39827
Post by: scarletsquig
Fenriswulf wrote:I hope they have done a re-vamp of the old Empire miniatures, because a lot of their rank and file are just atrocious.
If not, I'd rather buy Wargames Factory Samurais and Ashigaru miniatures and make a Nippon Empire army instead, with a liberal dash of Perry Miniatures and other manufacturers. New Demigryphs could easily be replaced by temple dogs or Oriental dragons.
Agreed, Perry's all the way for me, for all the infantry and cavalry.
GW lost a *lot* of money by pricing the greatswords at £25, if they were £15-£18, I'd have bought dozens of sets and used them to convert nicer-looking state troops.
But no, they had to throw an extra £10 on the price "just because it's a special choice", and also due to Tom Kirby's bonehead statement of "there is no reason that plastic should be cheaper than metal just because it's plastic" which was the idiotic top-level decision that drove me away in the first place.
This new release is a little more restrained as far as price rises go, but it still isn't enough to draw me back.
This is why people really need to start liking the fact that other companies like Perrys, WGF, Mantic etc. exist. Even if you hate everything about them to their core, at least realise that having competition in the wargames market might stop the prices on the GW products you do want to buy from rising to the moon.
For instance, 7th edition, steam tank released at £36/model... 8th edition - new wizardmobiles which are much bigger sculpts with more sprues and more options - £30.
Even the griffon isn't all that bad £33, I was expecting £41 for something that size.
New paint range *not* accompanied by a price rise for once.
I definitely think we're starting to see at least some sort of slowing down of the crazy GW price hikes compared to the last few years, and I have a hunch it is down to the competition constantly stepping up it's game. It'll be interesting to see if we get a price rise on Empire state troops or not. All other armies have had their 10-man boxes go up to £18.50.
Go back 5-6 years in time to when 7th edition was released.. what did we have that could actually match GW in terms of quality? Rackham, and... not a lot else as far as the wargames market goes. And as for matching them in price? Well, no-one was making plastics, so GW was still the cheapest unless you wanted some crap like 1:72 plastics, Zvezda, em4 or Warzone.
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Post by: plastictrees
angelshade00 wrote:
I know but still, a big laser cannon? (because that's what it is)
Well, apart from not being a laser or looking like a cannon, yes, you're completely right.
I admit that modern science might make certain wizard related breakthroughs the likes of which we can't even begin to imagine, but as of right now I'd suggest that an old man channeling his mystical light power through some big pieces of glass fits pretty well in a fantasy "medieval" setting.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
plastictrees wrote:angelshade00 wrote:
I know but still, a big laser cannon? (because that's what it is)
Well, apart from not being a laser or looking like a cannon, yes, you're completely right.
I admit that modern science might make certain wizard related breakthroughs the likes of which we can't even begin to imagine, but as of right now I'd suggest that an old man channeling his mystical light power through some big pieces of glass fits pretty well in a fantasy "medieval" setting.
'
That, and the fact that it's been clearly inspired by Archimedes's "death ray"
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Ok. On the gryphons. How the hell do you get into melee on that? its so big. Unless you jump off. If someone is meleeing with lets say skaven(im not a fantasy player but i love the models) the rider has to get off hit them then onto the gryphon again.
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Post by: Alpharius
hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok. On the gryphons. How the hell do you get into melee on that? its so big. Unless you jump off. If someone is meleeing with lets say skaven(im not a fantasy player but i love the models) the rider has to get off hit them then onto the gryphon again.
Suspension of disbelief + Rule of Cool = Awesome New Model!
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Post by: Zweischneid
hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok. On the gryphons. How the hell do you get into melee on that? its so big. Unless you jump off. If someone is meleeing with lets say skaven(im not a fantasy player but i love the models) the rider has to get off hit them then onto the gryphon again.
How do 10 Marines (possibly armed to the teeth with unsave weaponry of all kind and frothing with violent rage if you have Death Company or Berserkers or the like) fit into a Rhino?
How to Dreadnaughts lift a leg, much less walk or "run" or hit anything with their stubby short DDCW?
Etc....
This is GW. If you're looking for "realism", there's other companies out there that cater to it. GW sure as hell isnt.
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Post by: Kanluwen
There's actually an explanation on how the riders on these big monsters get into combat which doesn't necessarily require suspension of disbelief(well...beyond what's to be expected for a gryphon riding swordsman, that is).
We don't expect that for things like Skaven Slaves fighting Empire Soldiers that they stand in those nice orderly rows the entire fight, do we? If they were "really fighting", it's likely there'd be all kinds of stuff going on. Those big gryphons would likely be a prime target for soldiers to clamber up onto and try to drag it down by weight of numbers alone. The rider's attacks are likely against those kinds of people.
But hey, it's always possible that I might just have been reading a few too many Dragonlance books lately...
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Post by: Thunderfrog
The Griffon/Rider attack routine consists of: Claw Claw Bite Barrel Roll Swing Swing, then repeat.
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Post by: kenshin620
Yea it is Rule of Cool on big monsters and their riders. Maybe you might be able to use a lance if you're lucky. Its suppose to be abstract an all anyways
scarletsquig wrote:
But no, they had to throw an extra £10 on the price "just because it's a special choice", and also due to Tom Kirby's bonehead statement of "there is no reason that plastic should be cheaper than metal just because it's plastic" which was the idiotic top-level decision that drove me away in the first place.
Heck metal itself doesnt have to be that expensive. Old Glory 28mm is relatively inexpensive (full price of $35 for 25 figures, hello Landsknechts!)
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Post by: JOHIRA
I love the griffin. It looks to be an attempt at foreshortening in miniature form- i.e. the exaggeratedly large feet and exaggeratedly tiny head create an illusion that the head is further away, and thus that the beast is so big that there is a perspective change between bits in the foreground and bits in the background. Very clever, and I'm surprised GW took the risk on it when they could have just copy/pasted the High Elf griffin and tacked on a bunch of skulls and comets.
I do wonder though how it looks when you are looking at it from the gamer's-eye-view. From above it might just look especially pin-headed.
All the rest of the releases are a forgettable pile of blah. Typical of GW, they are over-decorated and under-conceptualized. They are festooned with so many details the eye doesn't know where to look, so in the end it doesn't really look at anything. The demigryphs are particularly poorly-concieved, with very little work put into distinguishing them from ordinary horses. Whereas the Forgeworld demigryff has an exaggerated beak and anatomically-appropriate pose to make it absolutely unquestionable what it is you're looking at, the GW demigryphs may as well just be horses with a quick hoof-and-head swap.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I wonder if we'll see an arcane war machine for the other 6 lores. That would be interesting.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Frenka over at Warseer had a look at the army book:
frenka wrote:I have seen the armybook now and i can confirm afew things.
Runefang is still in the book at 85pts
Helm of the ratslayer. fear to evryone, terror to skaven but skavens hate the model wearing it. 15pts
AOMI 1+ AS and 6++ for 50points
Griffonbanner same as usual for 60pts
steelstandard. ignore -movement from barding and reroll 1's on the charge, flee and pursue
Mace of helstrum (didnt read the rules for it) 50pts
Van horstmans speculum 40pts
Ring of volans (think it was 30 or 40)
and the white cloak abit redone at 50pts
(...)
Also all statetroops except spearmen have gone up 1 points (including crossbows, handgunners and greatswords)
Detachment rule: Detatchments now counts for the same pointscost as the parentunit (for example core, special etc.) They gain the same special rules as the parent unit (stubborn, stupidity etc) and also get the same prayer as the parent unit.
Mortars will be s2(6) big plate and get a 33% point increase aswell. Great cannon gets a 20% point increase. Steam tank now works differently with a steamengine missifirechart. It moves d6 random move per steampoint used up to 5 and causes d6+d3 per steampoint impacthits.
Please warrior priests still generate dispell dice same with arch lectors and the war altar boosts still has to be good
They dont generat dispeldice anymore, though they can channel both power and dispeldice
Their prayers are though much better: 1 that makes the whole unit reroll wounds. 1 that gives the unit 5++ in closecombat, and then we have old soulfire that now gives flaming attacks to the unit and damages models in basecontact with the priest
(...)
Witchhunters get some sort of "assassin typ role in the army i guess. After deployment you pick a model to "accuse of heresy!" and then the witchhunter will be extra strong against that model...
(...)
Regular knights have gotten a pointdrop by 2pts And there will be mounted reiksguardknights at 27pts. They are like normal inner circle knights but also stubborn
(...)
Engineers can now either pass their BS to 1 warengine per turn OR reroll a dice
Griffons are down to 170pts
The steam tank will have t6
well the steamtank has +1 AS instead. Seem logical to me?
+ the rules are different now
I can say that the info about the steam tank that i gave is from the book that i've read at my local gaming store. In the book it has t6
The effectivness of the main cannon and the steam gun is dependant on how many steampoints you spend on it that turn. the steamtank moves d6 random move per steam point (so it could in theory charge 30") and it does d6+d3 per steampoint impacthits
Yes it has a special blowing the boiler missfirechart now
And no, if you use 5steampoints you would get d6+ 5d3 impacthits
Someone on W-E.com just posted that flaggellants have gone up by 2, is this true?
They have. The rules for sacrificing flagellants have been remade so they can get +1t instead of that +1 combat res if i remember it right.
And if you use flagellants against the right unit they can wreak havoc...
Ah right forgot to mention that. There is no unitlimit anymore on them
(...)
As i mentioned before, the hellstorm rocketbattery will fire d3 s3 small templates and fire like a normal stonethrower except allways indirect fire so its not a huge nerf. Could potentialy hit 63 models in 1 shot
And what about the Helblaster - how many points, is it autohit again (as it was in 6th ed)?
It is still BS shooting style. though it can use the BS of an engineer.
when the helblaster missfires (if i read it right) will on the first missfire roll, shoot half the shots, on the second missfire roll that turn, roll on the blackpowder chart and third roll all barrels roll 10 and the cannon explodes
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Post by: Void_walker
Wow, glad they are rumors....
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Frenka says the points costs of magic items and inside information on how things works........YET only give a % to how much the mortar and cannon is. Guess the GW hounds at the warehouse got to him before he could take some more information 
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Post by: Aerethan
The nerf to mortars by both lowering S and raising cost is a bit harsh. Cannons needed to be nerfed against large monsters and a 20 point bump isn't that.
Glad that the speculum is there for just 5 more points. And the changes to detachments makes me see them as useful now, especially with a Greatswords parent and a warrior priest.
Never liked or took a Stank so don't care on those. Helblaster seems better.
If all of those last rumors are true then it's all fine by me. I'm excited to do a new Empire army as it was my first army way back when.
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Post by: kenshin620
Yay time to drop all those mortars from the lists
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Post by: 4oursword
Anyone else noticed that if you cover the feline part of the Griffon, you get a hilariously fat baby eagle?
Also, how does that chest armour attach on? Looks like it's just suspended on the Griffon's chest without straps.
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Post by: GoDz KI11JOY x
Any idea who is the author of this army book, I can't seem to find who it is?
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Post by: BorderCountess
If the S2 mortars bit is true, my Chaos Warriors can stop worrying. But upping the price, too? Horrid.
That said, I'm overall excited for the new book. I may have to start fielding my Empire again - they haven't been my 'main' army since 6th Edition.
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Post by: timetowaste85
GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Any idea who is the author of this army book, I can't seem to find who it is?
Cruddace. It's in the first post, I believe. Some of these leaks disappoint me-AoMI going up to 50pts by just adding a ward save to it? Feth it. State troops going up in cost? WTF? Witch hunters? Okay, now I'm happy. And 160pt griffons...I see a couple Griffon riders going to battle. Hehehehe.
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Post by: LazzurusMan
Anyone see this on GW's site today and think it was another april fools joke???
I heard no rumors about this till today...
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Post by: Fenriswulf
scarletsquig wrote:This is why people really need to start liking the fact that other companies like Perrys, WGF, Mantic etc. exist. Even if you hate everything about them to their core, at least realise that having competition in the wargames market might stop the prices on the GW products you do want to buy from rising to the moon.
Exactly. If there are no good alternatives to GW, then their habit of raising prices to outrageous levels even though the sculpts are years old in many cases, or worse, are in finecast and both expensive and horribly deformed, then they'll keep on with their habits with no need to change.
WGF now makes enough troops to fill out your core and some special choices easily for an Empire Army. Archers, Swordsmen, Spearmen, Handgunners, Halberdiers (with a bit of a weapon swap, or modification to the Yari spear, or Naginata's from Perry or the Assault Group), Free Company and Greatswords.
I've checked their forum and they will be releasing Samurai Cavalry, so there is your Knightly Orders, Pistoliers (if you wanted to do so) and Outriders (with Aquebus, or you could use bows instead). The riders from this could be easily co-opted to ride whatever Oriental version of a Demigryph you wanted (Foo Dog, Oriental dragons, Phoenix). If they then release Sohei Monks (as many people are asking), you'd have Flagellants too.
That only leaves crossbowmen (unthematic for this army), Mortars, Great Cannons, Steam Tank, Rocket Battery (could shoe-horn in a Hwacha if you wanted), Volley Gun, Demigryphs, the War Wagons/Arcane chariots, and Heroes. Heroes are easy enough to find, the rest are easily installed with either proxies or modifications to other lines kits (ie Perry Miniature cannon crew with an Empire cannon).
No need for any GW figures whatsoever. And a hell of a lot cheaper too.
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Post by: Flashman
Anyone buying the new WD hoping for a preview of army book content will be sorely disappointed. Aside from the new models which we've seen already, there was absolutely nothing about what the new stuff does. No profiles for Demigryphs, no boasts about the Luminark's destruction power... nada.
Quite bizzare really. It's possible that they had to use up all the space to discuss the new paints, but for the big army of the month release, the content is rather sparse.
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Post by: Zoned
Sounds like the Empire got the nerf bat across the board. Doesn't sound good.
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Post by: Kanluwen
It looks like this will be another Tyranids book.
THANKS CRUDDACE!
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Post by: skarsol
Or it could be April 1.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Nah. It's a Robin Cruddace book. He has two settings:
Horribly overpowered, cookie-cutter book.
Horribly mediocre book, with a few standout units which are obscene.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
Selling Empire..... Anyone? Anyone?
If even the Steamtank rumors are true I will be handing out torches and pitchforks outside Cruddaces house for the next month
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Post by: timetowaste85
I just looked on GW, and BOTH Empire battalion boxes are missing from the site. Snatch em up while you can? I'm gonna go out myself in the next few minutes and hope to pick one up. Time to restart my first army, now that I have the funds after selling it off the first time to pay bills.
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Post by: Sasori
This is really the only release that has disappointed me in a while. I really am not interested in all at it. I'll still pick up the army book though.
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Post by: Alpharius
Empire hit with the Nerf Bat?
Why?
And... the costs of troops going... up?
Huh?
Obviously we'll have to wait and see the actual (Hardcover for no other reason than to charge more for it) book, but...
11
Post by: ph34r
Alpharius wrote:Empire hit with the Nerf Bat?
Why?
And... the costs of troops going... up?
Huh?
Obviously we'll have to wait and see the actual (Hardcover for no other reason than to charge more for it) book, but...
You know almost nothing about the new book, and are ignoring supposed buffs to warrior priests and detachments? I'm not empire genius but the standard whine train seems a bit premature at this time.
Your statement about hardcover being for "no other reason than to charge more" seems somewhat not based on facts/reality. It is also a sentiment not shared by many in my experience.
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Post by: kenshin620
ph34r wrote:
Your statement about hardcover being for "no other reason than to charge more" seems somewhat not based on facts/reality. It is also a sentiment not shared by many in my experience.
Ehh it seemed a good chunk of the community thought they were just like that to get more money when the hardcovers first came in. Who knows. But you cant deny that the prices did go up with the switch to hardcover, and there is of course no options for softcover unlike some other rule systems. Although I suppose it doesnt matter for serious gamers who'll just spiral it anyways
11
Post by: ph34r
I for one welcome my new hardcover overlords. I will agree that choosing not to offer soft cover was probably at least partially motivated by the increased price, among things (multiple versions causing confusion for new members, more stock and initial investment required, a risk of actually losing money on one version if offering two, etc). The best solution for the player would of course be to offer choice... If that would be possible.
Remember that the new hardcover books are full color and contain much more information than before.
In all likelihood the cost of a long, full color, soft cover book would only be a few dollars difference, from my experience in publishing.
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Post by: Alpharius
ph34r wrote:Alpharius wrote:Empire hit with the Nerf Bat?
Why?
And... the costs of troops going... up?
Huh?
Obviously we'll have to wait and see the actual (Hardcover for no other reason than to charge more for it) book, but...
You know almost nothing about the new book, and are ignoring supposed buffs to warrior priests and detachments? I'm not empire genius but the standard whine train seems a bit premature at this time.
Your statement about hardcover being for "no other reason than to charge more" seems somewhat not based on facts/reality. It is also a sentiment not shared by many in my experience.
Hey Turbo, it might be time to cool your jets. A bit.
I was referencing these posts:
Aerethan wrote:The nerf to mortars by both lowering S and raising cost is a bit harsh. Cannons needed to be nerfed against large monsters and a 20 point bump isn't that.
Zoned wrote:Sounds like the Empire got the nerf bat across the board. Doesn't sound good.
I also mentioned it would be best to wait for the actually book to come out too...
So, did April 1st steal your lunch money or something?
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
Also Waralter is stubborn...
11
Post by: ph34r
Alpharius I'm saying that only a tiny pinch of the facts are in, and that labeling the book need bat'd seemed to not follow. The buffs among the points increases seemed significant to me. I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies.
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Post by: LazzurusMan
Kroothawk wrote:
IF I decide to try empire again...I'ma have 2...that would look awesome in a 40k army if you made a few adjustments...
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Post by: Alpharius
ph34r wrote:Alpharius I'm saying that only a tiny pinch of the facts are in, and that labeling the book need bat'd seemed to not follow. The buffs among the points increases seemed significant to me. I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies.
No problem!
I want Empire to be an OK to GOOD book - I want to get back into WFB, and my 2 armies are Empire and "Warriors of Chaos", which I started back when Chaos was a lot more... Chaotic.
Anyway, waiting for the book is absolutely the best advice!
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Post by: timetowaste85
Anyone who looked at the book know what the best state troop is to build? I was serious about snatching up the old battalions-got one of each for $72 each a few minutes ago, and I'm trying to decide which is best. I'm leaning towards halberds for S4, but I'm hoping to hear which is best from someone in the know.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
My bet is still on Halberds as even though spears are now cheaper (IE not as expensive as the rest) they still do not pull their weight. Also swordsmen are now way to many points for their cost IMO. Thus halberds
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
Thanks Johnny. Time ta build 30 of the bastards.
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
And if the prayer rumors are accurate Halberds just become alot better.
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
So maybe i shoudnt start an empire army?
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
I think Empire will be fine, but I just dislike the direction they are taking them.
It is like when a band you love gets a new frontman and still makes good music but is just not the same. (See Sublime)
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Post by: Aerethan
A single point buff means that halberds are 6 and swords are 7?
Swordsmen were 7 points in 6th edition and were worth taking then.
I'll end up using a big block of both. I foresee Life being yet again the go to lore to keep low T models on the table.
I really wanted to hate the new griffon, but it's starting to grow on me.
As to the entire book being color: fluff is still written in black and white, and it doesn't need any color. So really the whole"its all color" doesn't make a book that should be $20 worth $41.
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Post by: sebster
Kanluwen wrote:They don't seem to have much motivation to redo some of the older models, instead they seem to be focusing upon removing those larger units which did not have a plastic option and granting said option while also adding a few new units here and there in plastic.
It's sad there are no new Knights, but it is nice to have some new units available I think.
Yeah, I am aware of GW's new business model, where each army release is centred around units (and I accept it makes sense, when they re-do old models some not-zero portion of their player base is going to already have painted up units of the old models, and will choose to save money to stick with the older model, whereas a new unit model will be bought by all players). And it is certainly nice to have new kits.
But if GW has already built a new plastic sprue for horses, as we know they have by the existance of new horses in the new kits, why not offer those with knights?
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Post by: manoknok
No halflings, and no hot pot makes Manoknok go something something?
Go crazy?
Don't mind if I dooo.........  
Hmmm. Melted Cheese.
19148
Post by: Aerethan
sebster wrote:Kanluwen wrote:They don't seem to have much motivation to redo some of the older models, instead they seem to be focusing upon removing those larger units which did not have a plastic option and granting said option while also adding a few new units here and there in plastic.
It's sad there are no new Knights, but it is nice to have some new units available I think.
Yeah, I am aware of GW's new business model, where each army release is centred around units (and I accept it makes sense, when they re-do old models some not-zero portion of their player base is going to already have painted up units of the old models, and will choose to save money to stick with the older model, whereas a new unit model will be bought by all players). And it is certainly nice to have new kits.
But if GW has already built a new plastic sprue for horses, as we know they have by the existance of new horses in the new kits, why not offer those with knights?
It is true that the knights themselves are fine. Just make a whopping 2 horse sprues and bam problem solved. A sprue that small can't be that expensive and would easily sell even to people who already own the old knights and characters just to change them to a newer and proper style.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Does anyone else think theat the very cool witchfinder looks a bit like the New films Rooster Cogburn
52059
Post by: Johnny-Crass
Mr Morden wrote:Does anyone else think theat the very cool witchfinder looks a bit like the New films Rooster Cogburn
Far to thin but kinda yeah
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Post by: plastictrees
sebster wrote:
But if GW has already built a new plastic sprue for horses, as we know they have by the existance of new horses in the new kits, why not offer those with knights?
There isn't a new seperate barded horse sprue though, they're on the larger "fancy wagon" sprue. The horses are also straining forward, which is a nice little detail but makes them less than ideal for cavalry mounts.
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Post by: Minsc
Kroothawk wrote:Also all statetroops except spearmen have gone up 1 points (including crossbows, handgunners and greatswords)
So, wait, an Empire Swordsman is 7pts? That's... interesting. I can't see them winning against most other core at this price.
Kroothawk wrote:The steam tank will have t6
This change will greatly reduce tarpit potential. And anti-War Machine capabilities (Bolt Throwers will wound on 4's or 3's now, depending on if normal or Dorf, and Cannons on 2's).
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Post by: Kroothawk
More from frenka over at Warseer who claims to have access to the book:
Ok report on the book now:
Magic items are as i've said about them. steel banner is 35 points
General up with 15pts start with light armour and the hold your ground special rule. No ancient heirlom rule.
Grand master i think was up by 20pts and cannot choose demigryph mount
Archlector down by 25, altar up by 50, only has power lvl 4 banishment as spell now
Wizard down by 10
Captain up by 10 start with same as general
warrior priest down by 25pts same prayers as i said before.
witch hunters will be the same as the old captain price, and the "heresy rule" is that he gains reroll to hit and killingblow against the target. He gives his unit immune to terror ( it only causes fear to the unit) and himselfe is also immune to fear (not the whole unit). He reroll to wound against wizards, undeads and demons.
(core)
All heroes and chars that used to be able to ride pegasi can still do so. pegasi down by 5pts and got some upgrades like +1 stomp or reroll 1's on the charge.
All statetroops are up by 1 point except spearmen. Swordsmen are down to i3.
militia is up by 1 and archers goes down 1pts.
knights ( i correct myselfe here) is down by ONE point. and only 1 unit may be innercircle and ONLY that unit may take a magic banner.
(special)
greatswords are up by1 but can take magic banners
mortars are up by 33% and are s2(6)
great cannons are up by 20%
Flagellants are now a special unit (gets ws3!! ) and takes d6 s3 when sacrificing 1 dead= reroll to hit, 2dead = reroll to wound, 4+dead = +1t
Huntsmen are now special choice at same price as old handgunners and archers.
Demigryphs can take either halberds or lances (normal halberds)
(rare)
Helblaster is like before but with new missfire chart: 1 missfire, the rest of the barrels shoot half their number, 2 missfires, roll on blackpowderchart, 3 missfires, 30hits and the machine explodes. Can now use the engineers BS to fire
helstorm fires d3 s3 small templates. roll artillery dice + the number of template scatterdices ( allways counted as inderect fire)
Steamtank is now down by 50pts. the steamboiler works like you roll a artydice, if the number is higher than your current wounds or a missfire, roll on the missfirechart. to do this roll a d3 + the number of steampoints you generated.
gets d6 random move per steam point. steamgun now works like a breathweapon in CC aswell as shooting only that it works in CC every turn. The strenght of the steamgun depends on how much steampoints you put on it up to s6.
The light mobile gives a dispeldice, 6++ to all units within 6" and fires a boundspell power 4. s8 flaming magic missile that does d3wounds and pierce ranks like boltthrower. reroll wounds against undeads and demons
The heavens mobile gives +1 to hit in cc and has a boundspell that shoots a template that can do damage or turn the targeted unit towards a random direction.
Detachment rule is as i've mentioned. there was a list of special rules that passed from the parent unit to the detachment. i dont remember all of them
(...)
The missfirechart for the steamtank isnt just BAD, it can be that it looses d3 steampoints that turn etc. So it might still be able to do its buissness.
On the charge it can do d6+d3xsteampoints spent s6. and in CC it does d3 s6 hits per steampoint to 1 unit
I can confirm that it is down to t6
The chance that the tank will have to roll on the missfire chart doesnt depend on how many steampoints you generate anymore. You nominate how many steampoints just like 7th ed. And yes to your question about consequences
Wait so it does D6 + (D3 x SP) on the charge, and then once it's in it does another (D3 x SP)?
No. it does d3 x sp when not charging
And the pass all characteristics test rule seemed to be gone. same thing with allways failing I-tests. as the engineer has i3. i think that is what it passes on
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Post by: Aerethan
Swordsmen losing 1I is rough on top of the points increase. I'll still run them as I have the models but I'm less happy about it now.
Making things more expensive seems to go against the GW rule of making things cheaper so you need more of them.
I suppose we'll have to wait until the book is out to really figure out how to min/max them properly. I see myself playing 2 lists: a balls to the walls list with a Waltar and a Sigmarite theme, and then a more traditional Empire list with a GotE, wizard lord and some captains.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
I can foresee oodles of Empire people dumping swordsmen for Halberds now
Ahh the classic "nerf something everyone has so people will buy more of a different unit" tactic
21462
Post by: Ehsteve
Great job nerfing swordsmen GW, could've sold me a whole bunch before this. Certainly looked cooler than Halberd spam and the stats made them a cut above the rest.
Hurricanum sounds awesome though, +1 to hit in CC in combination with rerolls to hit has some serious potential, though we will have to wait for the points cost and to see if it actually has a ward save (if it doesn't, it is a wasted kit). No a complete fan of the steamtank nerf seeing as how expensive the model is.
Hist mobile bolt thrower does sound interesting, especially against Ogres and ethereal enemies, especially since it's so easy to cast. However a 6+ Ward is lacklustre, they should take a note from the Lizardmen Engine of the Gods and turn that into a 5+ Ward minimum (Wow! My halberds have an effective parry save, sorry GW, no dice).
Cheaper wizards, always good. Cheaper warpriest, obviously they want you to use 1-3 in each army. Witch Hunter stands on a knife edge, he will need access to some good magic items and a decent statline or otherwise he is another wasted character.
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Post by: Alpharius
Can someone explain why Swordsmen would go up by a point AND lose a point of initiative?
Because the only reason I can see is the one that kenshin620 put forth...
Too many people took Swordsmen, GW thinks Halberdiers are the Iconic Empire Troop, i.e., "nerf something everyone has so people will buy more of a different unit" that they probably don't already own?
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Post by: biccat
Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.
Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.
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Post by: kenshin620
biccat wrote:Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.
Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.
Yea but spearmen in most armies dont do very well anyways so no one would take spearmen
Supporting attacks killed off the main reason to take spears (double attack vs 1/3 more). S3 troops tend to just be a block that holds, not kill. Parry saves help that, not spears
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Post by: xxvaderxx
Did we get ANYTHING good out of this edition?, i mean, compared to the 7th edition book, we got nerfed all around and we were already a mid tier army to begin with.
The swordmen loosing I, is not a big deal, I isnt useful for blocks, but getting one point more expensive on an already overcooked troop (all state troops for that matter is ridiculous).
Mortairs s2 and 30% more expensive? really?.
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Post by: Minsc
The Witch Hunter - assuming stats at least slightly comparable to a Hero - should do decent against the armies he re-rolls to Wound against (Undead, specifically, as Daemons can probably mulch him before he strikes).
Steam Tank is at once more and less reliable. On one hand, does this mean a max of 10 Steam Points? And now if reduced to, say, 6 wounds, you can still reasonably function (half your rolls giving you 2-6 steam points, whereas now 6 wounds means 50% failure chance at 2 Steam Points). On the other, you can Misfire and auto-fail any turn, and you can't choose how many Steam Points you're going for (33% chance of only 2 or insta-misfire when at max wounds, whereas 10 Wounds now means 100% success rate for four Steam Points).
I can only assume the Swordsman went up in cost due to the detachment changes (if some special rule is applied to Swordsmen, it's also applied to their sub-units) and as part of some long-term plan to raise the Core costs in general (Orcs went up in price, for example, and while Skeletons went down they're still 4pts / model for Goblin statline with crumble and fear). Not that this makes them any more viable now: Halberdiers will rule the day for at least the next few army books.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
Minsc wrote:
I can only assume the Swordsman went up in cost due to the detachment changes (if some special rule is applied to Swordsmen, it's also applied to their sub-units) and as part of some long-term plan to raise the Core costs in general (Orcs went up in price, for example, and while Skeletons went down they're still 4pts / model for Goblin statline with crumble and fear). Not that this makes them any more viable now: Halberdiers will rule the day for at least the next few army books.
How does this work? this is the only thing i can see saving the army, state troops were already expensive for what they did, now are MORE so. Unless we get grate benefits from what you described, like say, casting beast default on main unit and detachment getting it as well.
what about the prayers, are they finally useful?.
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Post by: Polonius
I nevere really played fantasy, but I have a painted empire army that I've occasionally thought about bulding up to modern standards. 8th edition didn't interest me much... and these rumors aren't helping.
Anybody interested in 6th edition empire?
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Post by: sebster
biccat wrote:Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.
Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.
I think that's basically it. Spearmen were woeful in 8th compared to the other state troops, so they raised the price. The problem being the other troops were hardly wonderful for what you paid, they were par to slightly below, with the Empire doing well because of their other strengths (mortars, cannon and warrior priests).
They should have given spearmen a slight boost, perhaps by giving free shields to all state troops (which would benefit spearmen just enough, and halberdiers very little). Swordsmen would remain the same, but get their own small boost by making the wizard mobile (I forget which one) that gives the ward save stack with their own parry save.
Instead they went for the blunt approach of increasing both units. It looks like they're going for a new model for the Empire, base troops that are way more expensive than they should be, supported by bonuses from characters and engines of war. It isn't a bad model per se, but GW's recent effort in making it work, the Tyranid book in 40K, was pretty much pure fail, because from what I can see of their game design, they price the big unit that gives a bonus according to the bonus it provides, but then also price the new unit for having the option of getting a boost.
One price or the other is workable, charging for both ensures a mediocre army.
And then when you consider mortars weren't just corrected by positively gimped, the already more expensive than they should be missile troops got a price hike, and the boosts given by the new wizard mobiles don't really sound that great, then the whole book starts to look pretty woeful.
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Post by: Talarn Blackshard
Well Empire was my first army so I will probably make a return to WFB with them once again...
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Post by: Sirius42
While this is going to sound like i'm trolling i'm really not...
I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).
more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.
Also, more expensive war machines means we might just see some of the larger monster gribblies make the table now.... maybe?
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Post by: biccat
kenshin620 wrote:S3 troops tend to just be a block that holds, not kill. Parry saves help that, not spears
Good news - there's a brand-new kit (only $40) that will give your spearmen blocks a 6+ ward save! It's vulnerable to shooting, so you should take two.
Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).
If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Are GW really saying that a 7 point swordsman is better than a 6 point dark elf spearman (elf!) with higher WS,I,Ld and eternal hatred.
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Post by: Thunderfrog
Obviously puffy shirts and cod piece saves come at a premium.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Well, the swordsmen do get ward saves, so I guess that's worth the extra point....if it weren't for the DE's higher WS, I and rerolls to hit.
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Post by: kenshin620
biccat wrote:
Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).
If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.
Hmm there may have been some negatives tweaks but come now, I dont think Empire has hit Beastmen tier yet
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Post by: Clarence
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Are GW really saying that a 7 point swordsman is better than a 6 point dark elf spearman (elf!) with higher WS,I,Ld and eternal hatred.
They actually have the same WS. And a 6pt Dark Elf Spearman has no shield.
It's better to compare the 6pt Empire Spearman with shield to the 7pt Dark Elf Spearman with shield.
+1pt gives you extra M, WS, I, and LD
Then again, it's generally accepted that the Dark Elf Spearman is undercosted.
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Post by: Sirius42
kenshin620 wrote:biccat wrote:
Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).
If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.
Hmm there may have been some negatives tweaks but come now, I dont think Empire has hit Beastmen tier yet
Part of the issue of the points costs (and this also goes to the dark elf spearmen comments) is that it has to take into context with the army as a whole. For example IMO VC ghouls are overpriced on their own, but with the vampire magic, items, corpse cart and mortis engine they become well worth it.
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Post by: abbazabba1920
Again, we're comparing to 8th ed., not 7th ed. books. I'm sure there will be plenty of viable Empire lists.
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Post by: Aerethan
I'll play the empire for fun and fluff. If I want to win I'll play VC or DE.
I have always loved the Empire and will continue to do so no matter what the nerfs and laser beams are.
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Post by: sebster
Sirius42 wrote:more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.
Which is a perfectly sensible piece of reasoning, if we weren't also expected to pay 7 points per model for that bog standard human.
And that's really the core of the issue people are having here, everyone expected and was okay with war machines copping a hit, but they've nerfed most everything else and increased the price (flagellants were increased in price, had martyrdom made worse and they weren't very good to begin with).
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Post by: Alpharius
sebster wrote:Sirius42 wrote:more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.
Which is a perfectly sensible piece of reasoning, if we weren't also expected to pay 7 points per model for that bog standard human.
And that's really the core of the issue people are having here, everyone expected and was okay with war machines copping a hit, but they've nerfed most everything else and increased the price (flagellants were increased in price, had martyrdom made worse and they weren't very good to begin with).
You're right - and you're making me get even more depressed!
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
lord_blackfang wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
Because they save you money? 
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Post by: ph34r
Johnny-Crass wrote:lord_blackfang wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
Because they save you money?
Because people fixate on whatever their favored unit getting nerfed slightly is, and disregard new units, new abilities, changed units, etc. (it's totally possible that Empire is not uber tier now, but I think the natural tendency is to not factor in new positive changes)
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Post by: Alpharius
ph34r wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:lord_blackfang wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
Because they save you money?
Because people fixate on whatever their favored unit getting nerfed slightly is, and disregard new units, new abilities, changed units, etc.
(it's totally possible that Empire is not uber tier now, but I think the natural tendency is to not factor in new positive changes)
I don't think they ever were 'Top Tier'.
You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
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Post by: kenshin620
Johnny-Crass wrote:lord_blackfang wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
Because they save you money?
I swear I think half the population that plays 40k/fantasy would quit if they actually took the time and closely examined the rules
Anyways I dont mind less people playing an army, means that the army is an underdog! People love underdogs!
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Post by: Acardia
I'm sore from the last time I played the empire.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.
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Post by: Sirius42
lord_blackfang wrote:Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.
I watched a 2k empire army with 100 handgunners 2 mortars a cannon and some sprinkled point filler demolish everything yesterday.....i think that the horse size quota is actually fairly generous, speaking of which, are handgunners changing? (in case ive missed it).
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Post by: biccat
Sirius42 wrote:speaking of which, are handgunners changing? (in case ive missed it).
Point increase, but that's it.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Johnny-Crass wrote:lord_blackfang wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.
See, this is why previews are bad.
Because they save you money?
Exactly!
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Post by: Alpharius
lord_blackfang wrote:Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.
Now that made me laugh - thanks!
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Post by: protomane0
quick question, if it is allowed?
so theres no sign of the empire battalion on the UK site, not sure about any other countries, looked at wayland games site, and they're got a new cheaper (the standard price is £60, opposed to the old box's £70) battalion up for advanced order, no sign of this on workshops website, and of course no mention in white dwarf or any of the forums I've looked at, unless of course i've not been looking hard enough, so, do wayland know more than we do? or is this just some horrible mistake on their part =S
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Post by: Clarence
Alpharius wrote:
I don't think they ever were 'Top Tier'.
You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
I think you're wrong. Empire (and Dwarves) were the reason why you saw everyone scoff at the new monsters. 75pt Mortars made Hordes cry. Fairly cheap Troops made for easy Horde/Steadfast units. Add a Warrior Priest and they actually fought decently in close combat. Access to every lore made the army versatile. Making dispel dice like Dwarves gave it a huge advantage in the magic phase. 1+ armour knights that were core. Awesome Pegasi heroes. Steam Tank that was near invincible (except to initiative tests.)
The only problem would be a lack of cheap chaff, but otherwise, the Empire were definitely a top tier army.
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Post by: Alpharius
I stand corrected!
So...
You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
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Post by: ph34r
Alpharius wrote:I stand corrected! So... You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
You intentionally misrepresent the facts by stating that any empire army with mortars and/or cannons is a gunline. The army that he described is far from a gunline. I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around. If anything you should be happy that the supposed "gunline" units are nerfed. Now your non-gunline empire army is in fact relatively more competitive. Does that change your mind? I expect it won't, but I believe you are being somewhat unreasonable.
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Post by: Dysartes
ph34r wrote:I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around.
This attitude really makes me fear for an 8th edition Dwarf book - artillery has as much, if not more, of a place in WHFB than ridiculous monsters we've never heard of before the last two years.
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Post by: ph34r
Dysartes wrote:ph34r wrote:I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around.
This attitude really makes me fear for an 8th edition Dwarf book - artillery has as much, if not more, of a place in WHFB than ridiculous monsters we've never heard of before the last two years.
I think that cannons will always have a place. 20 points more is not going to make or break a 2500 point list, not by a long shot. The maximum penalty the new book imposes upon your cannons now is what, 60 points? Is that REALLY that awful out of 2500? I'm sure dwarves will still be appropriately uber at cannons.
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Post by: biccat
ph34r wrote:If anything you should be happy that the supposed "gunline" units are nerfed. Now your non-gunline empire army is in fact relatively more competitive.
My non-"gunline" Empire army is more competitive?
Is that because they made core troops more expensive? Because they took away easy flank charges from detachments (I know they changed other rules too, but I think the free flank charge was one of the reasons to take them)? Maybe it was by making Flagellant's a terrible army choice and cramming most of the useful selections into the special section.
The non-"gunline" Empire army is not more competitive. Mortars and cannons are what gave the Empire a way to deal with unbreakable hordes and monsters. Now we get...unbreakable hordes and monsters.
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Post by: ph34r
I will concede that mortars suck now.
But, cannons still seem well worthwhile to me.
There are always plenty of ways of taking out hordes from magic (you get all 8 lores, your wizards are now cheaper) to new monsters (hate on them if you want, but they're part of your army book and might be competitive), to buffing your own hordes with the new warrior priests which seems significant.
Not every army gets killer mortars. It sucks that you don't get them any more either, I feel you, but you have many other options.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
How about instead of whining about the new army, we wait until the new is released and THEN start whining?
I recall alot of whining at news of the new Necron rules, and Necrons turned out to be a fairly powerful army.
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Post by: Zoned
Actually, I think the Necron book is pretty poor overall.
Can you build a few good lists with it? Yes. Are there many units that are crap and therefore all the good lists look the same? Yes. Compare that to Space Wolves or Grey Knights who are spoiled for choices.
I've seen some more stuff into the Empire book and I'm despairing less. And ph24r's points make me understand some of the nerf's better - they make Fantasy play as it is intended to in 8th.
+1pt for nearly all the State Troops still irks me, though. But Warrior Priests buff them even better now (for cheaper,) and the Celestial Hurricanum is apparently pretty cheap in points and yields a +1 to hit aura (supposedly) so it's not as bad as I thought.
The cavalry (all types) sound better and better so I think I might be building an all cav list led by Karl Franz to supplement my take all comers army.
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Post by: Alpharius
ph34r wrote:Alpharius wrote:I stand corrected!
So...
You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!
You intentionally misrepresent the facts by stating that any empire army with mortars and/or cannons is a gunline. The army that he described is far from a gunline.
Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?
I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?
You might want to take a deep breath and relax now and again.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:How about instead of whining about the new army, we wait until the new is released and THEN start whining?
I recall alot of whining at news of the new Necron rules, and Necrons turned out to be a fairly powerful army.
Yeah, that's pretty much all we're doing here - spitballing until the actual book hits.
No harm in just talking.
I thought?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
No, no harm in talking I guess.
Its just that these sort of discussions always lead to the "OMG THEY NERFED MY ARMY!!!!! DAMN YOU GW" threads that always give me a headache.
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Post by: Hulksmash
To the above I'd say that I see about 3 builds out of Space Wolves consistantly and maybe 4 builds out of GK's consistantly. Considering 3 very different Necron army lists have won GT's and all diverge from significantly from "Web Lists" I don't see how you can view the Necrons as a poor book. Especially since it's designed for an edition that's not out yet.
Regarding Empire I'm gonna get the Army Book and pick up my Vamp one too. We'll see about models but right now due to where I live Fantasy is a read for enjoyment kind of thing because nobody around her plays much
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Post by: Sirius42
Has anyone heard anything about demigriffin knights? I have heard they will effectively be only T3 and approximately 60 pts, which don't sound great
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Post by: Zoned
There stats are on the GW site. And they are awesome.
S5,T4, W3, A3, and armour piercing for the mount. The rider is an inner circle knight in stats. 1+ armour is the kicker. Also, the mount is I4 and WS4, meaning less death to Purple Suns (unlike most other Monstrous Cav) and actually hit realiably.
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Post by: Sirius42
but the rider is T3 and I 3 so do you not use the riders T and I?
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Post by: Zoned
Sorry, you're right, the rider is T3, so that is the value you use for wounding.
In the case of I3, I only care for the purpose of initiative tests. And in those cases you use the highest value.
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Post by: Sirius42
ah Cool, still at almost 60pts im not convinced
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Aren't they monsterous mounts? I thought those follow different rules.
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Post by: skarsol
Cavalry: Mount's Wounds and Toughness are never used.
Monstrous Cavalry: All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with one exception — monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristic the model has.
They use the T of the rider, which is kinda dumb, but whatevs. I guess they're assuming everyone's taking a Life wizard and assuming that, don't want your T getting too high.
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Post by: besbin
Can we somehow took the knight off from the demigryph and just let them loose? with the current stat line of the demigryph, the rider is actually the weak point of the whole model. I would take that demigryph along for 4xpts any day.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
besbin wrote:Can we somehow took the knight off from the demigryph and just let them loose? with the current stat line of the demigryph, the rider is actually the weak point of the whole model. I would take that demigryph along for 4xpts any day.
Sadly, no.
I think GW may have derped a bit when they made the rules for him :/
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Post by: Zoned
I think they will be quite good. With 1+ armour they will grind down most infantry quite reliably. They are fast so they can get into combat quickly, and they are fairly durable so they can take the odd wound.
I can see myself taking 3 blocks of 4 with musician, maybe a champ.
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Post by: besbin
the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
besbin wrote:the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?
No...but they have 3 wounds and 1+ armor. And chaos knights don't have 4+ ward, unless they are tzeentch iirc.
That means that the demigryph knight will take 3+ saves, and will have to be wounded 3 times before being removed. As they are supposedly the same price as a chaos knight, I would say that's decent.
Oh, and the demigryph itself comes with S5 armor piercing, meaning the chaos knight takes 4+ saves, and can only be wounded once before being removed.
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Post by: biccat
besbin wrote:the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?
The Demigryph also gives 3 WS4, S5 attacks.
So with 3 wounds, it's not a terrible buy at 60-ish points.
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Post by: besbin
the Demigrpyh give 3 WS4 S5 atk + 1 atk at S5 WS4 by the knight with halberd. Per the rule of statistic you will cause average 0.444 wound after save per round of combat per model to the knight of chaos while the knight of chaos with 2 WS 5 S5 with I5 will strike first and cause 0.278 wound. If we count in the frontage advantage of the chaos knight and point value. It save to assume that we might win combat in the frist round but in the second round, after the stacking wound catch up and kill the models we are in serious trouble.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
besbin wrote:the Demigrpyh give 3 WS4 S5 atk + 1 atk at S5 WS4 by the knight with halberd. Per the rule of statistic you will cause average 0.444 wound after save per round of combat per model to the knight of chaos while the knight of chaos with 2 WS 5 S5 with I5 will strike first and cause 0.278 wound. If we count in the frontage advantage of the chaos knight and point value. It save to assume that we might win combat in the frist round but in the second round, after the stacking wound catch up and kill the models we are in serious trouble.
...I have no idea what you just said.
Regardless, the Demigryphs will win due to pure attrition. In an equal fight between the two (let's say 5v5) the demigryphs will win (assuming all break tests are passed on both sides) simply because they have 3x the number of wounds than a chaos knight.
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Post by: frozenwastes
The Hurricanum and Luminark look suspiciously like they wandered in off of a Warmachine/Hordes battlefield into WFB. I'm not sure what I think of them.
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Post by: Zoned
To Besbin - also, the Demigryphs are on 50x75mm bases, so you wouldn't get more Chaos Knights in, assuming equal numbers.
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Post by: Sirius42
For 3 demigryphs (with a standard and musician) I guesstimate I can get 4 blood knights, if the blood knights get the charge i'd wager you'd be looking at a lot of dead demigryphs, however i'd say if the gryphs got the charge, it'd be less nasty i'd guess about a draw.
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Post by: abbazabba1920
They'll get a stomp, too, yes?
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Post by: Sirius42
abbazabba1920 wrote:They'll get a stomp, too, yes?
against infantry but not against Cavalry IIRC.
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Post by: Zoned
If the Demigryphs got the charge, the mounts alone would kill 2 Blood Knights, and the 4 Str 6 attacks from the Knights thenselves have a good chance of killing one.
The Blood Knights would swing first, of course, but they on average will only cause 2 wounds, even with their Str 4 steeds.
So it's pretty close, but with the charge bonus and a banner, the Demigryphs win by 2, crumbling the remaining two knights.
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Post by: besbin
I was talking about units equal in point value, not number of models. I doubt that the demigryph will win even if they fight 5v5 against the chaos knights. 5 demigryph = 50x5 = 250mm while as 5 chaos knight are only 5x25 = 125mm. So actually all 5 chaos knight will fight while only 3 demigryph can get in combat. So the knight will have 10 + 5 mount atk = 15 atk while the demigryph only got 3 x 4 = 12 atk.
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Post by: Sirius42
Zoned wrote:If the Demigryphs got the charge, the mounts alone would kill 2 Blood Knights, and the 4 Str 6 attacks from the Knights thenselves have a good chance of killing one.
The Blood Knights would swing first, of course, but they on average will only cause 2 wounds, even with their Str 4 steeds.
So it's pretty close, but with the charge bonus and a banner, the Demigryphs win by 2, crumbling the remaining two knights.
If my maths is correct, if blood knights charge then they will drop 2 gryphs before they get to attack, then the horses will do nothing... correct? (i have done this in my head so i could be wrong)
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Post by: Zoned
Sorry besbin, I had a derp moment, thought that cav were on 50mm wide bases.
And in your example, you would get 4 Demigryph to fight, since you get corners (100mm fits into 125mm, plus corners.)
But anyway, let's assume equal points. 4 Demigryphs with 6 Chaos Knights (both have no command.)
The Chaos Knights swing first and should on average cause 2.22 wounds - not enough to kill a Demigryph.
The Demigryphs swing back and kill 2. If the Demigryphs charged, it should be another 1 dead due to the Str 6 lances. So if the Demigryphs charge, they should kill about 3 guys, and they will win combat by 2 points.
Without the charge, the Demigryphs should kill 2, and will probably lose combat by 1.
Note that it's all about whether or not the Chaos Knights can kill a Demigryph in the first round. The Mark of Khorne in this case is probably better than a 6th knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, it's no contest if the Blood Knights charge, the Demigryphs would lose horribly.
But the math is surprisingly not that bad - the Blood Knights should only do 4.44 wounds. If you think about it, 12 attacks, 8 hits, two thirds of that is saved by the armour, that's 2-3 blocked right there, plus you have to roll to wound...etc.
I was just contesting your statement:
"...however i'd say if the gryphs got the charge, it'd be less nasty i'd guess about a draw."
Just showing that if the Demigryphs charge, they should not lose a model and wipe the Blood Knights.
11
Post by: ph34r
Alpharius wrote:Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?
I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?
Yeah, you did a bad job. You could have been using it to be snarky or using it to imply your entire post was a joke. Don't get mad when other people don't understand the one true intention of your ": )" You are also being rather rude and belligerent, I'd rather my Dakka Mod Team did not constantly insult me. I'm attacking your argument, you're attacking me and calling me a tight-ass. Not chill. I have no beef with you and I'd rather you just explain things civilly, I ain't got time for more Dakka Vacations. Automatically Appended Next Post: CthuluIsSpy wrote:No, no harm in talking I guess.
Its just that these sort of discussions always lead to the "OMG THEY NERFED MY ARMY!!!!! DAMN YOU GW" threads that always give me a headache.
These are my thoughts exactly. As a non-empire player the levels of buff upon buff upon buff that Empire is getting thrown to give to their (now one point more expensive, true) infantry is extremely scary, and having a large crowd of Empire players rushing to cry nerf without considering the buffs is weird. I played VC in 6th ed, and I payed 11 points for a skeletal spearmen. The only way to win with them was to use your buffs, and from that perspective this Empire book seems crazy.
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Post by: Tzeentchling9
ph34r wrote:As a non-empire player the levels of buff upon buff upon buff that Empire is getting thrown to give to their (now one point more expensive, true) infantry is extremely scary, and having a large crowd of Empire players rushing to cry nerf without considering the buffs is weird. I played VC in 6th ed, and I payed 11 points for a skeletal spearmen. The only way to win with them was to use your buffs, and from that perspective this Empire book seems crazy.
I don't know. The buffs look pretty tasty, but most(if not all) are in the form of Bound Spells. Your mileage may vary, but, in my experience, Bound spells are pretty darn easy to dispell. It also seems weird to me that practically everything(at least every unit/warmachine, not to well informed on 7th Empire characters) got a points hike(and in some cases a nerf too, Mortar) and the new stuff seem to vary from so-so(Demigryphs/Hurricanium) to kind of lame(Super-laser thing, "Sure, I'll take a dispellable S8 Bolt Thrower instead of a Cannon for the same cost. What?"). I don't play Empire btw.
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Post by: Thunderfrog
Doesnt the Magnifying Glass of Doom give a buff to all the troops around it? Might be useful to surround it with hordes of dudes.
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Post by: ph34r
It gives an automatic 6++ buff to all friendlies within 6" and an automatic dispel dice. The heavens version gives an automatic +1 to hit in close combat, also to units within 6" I believe. I believe that these buffs transfer from parent units to detachments, but I can't confirm either way as I am only saying this based on info in this thread.
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Post by: Tzeentchling9
I actually can confirm what rules are passed on to detachments(Indy store is selling the book a couple days early). It's only a few Special Rules(Like Hatered, Frenzy, etc.) from the main rulebook and an Empire specific rule. No spells or passive buffs.
++6 is kind of lame, and although the +1DD is nice, I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop and way overshadowed by a similar weapon. The buffs are ok, but it's too many points to for them.
11
Post by: ph34r
Good to hear that information. That puts a bit of a hamper on the empire infantry uber-buff-block, at least the detachments do not get it unless they are within range as well.
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Post by: schadenfreude
200mm wide is a bit too fat for a cav footprint. 150 is very workabe. 250+ will cost too much in maneuverability.
3 demigrifs sounds like a great size. Won't break the bank in points, so 2 units of them will probably be a regular sight. Also point for point 3 of them is a pretty mean cav unit to charge into an infantry blocks flank.
Final note on demigrif v chaos knight debate. 5 chaos knights charge 3 demi=steam rolled. Its a more expensive unit squashing a less expensive unit. 3 demigrif flank charging 5 chaos knights=demigrif wins combat, has a solid chance to repeat the process on round 2. 3 of them is a mean unit for the price, and heavy cav can not allow them to get a flank charge.
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Post by: biccat
Tzeentchling9 wrote:++6 is kind of lame
Same as a parry save, only you can use it against shooting and magic.
But it's really overshadowed by the 5++ you can get from warrior priests.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop
The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.
I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.
With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.
This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.
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Post by: Tzeentchling9
biccat wrote:Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop
The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.
I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.
With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.
This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.
One dicing the bounds means a 50% fail rate while you opponent's fail rate is 33% and a canny opponent will use his lvl2, not lvl4. The priests bounds only work in CC too, so you either won't be using all four bounds or be targeting less useful targets with the arcane machines since they can't be cast into CC.
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Post by: biccat
Tzeentchling9 wrote:One dicing the bounds means a 50% fail rate while you opponent's fail rate is 33% and a canny opponent will use his lvl2, not lvl4.
Well, the priest spells are cast on a 3, so that helps. And a 1-2 means his wizard is done dispelling for the turn, which is nice. Not reliable, but nice when it happens.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:The priests bounds only work in CC too, so you either won't be using all four bounds or be targeting less useful targets with the arcane machines since they can't be cast into CC.
I try not to engage my opponent's entire army at once. So there should be something to shoot.
I see what you're saying, and I agree it's not ideal. It's becoming apparent that the Empire magic phase took a huge hit this edition. But I'm trying to make the best of the bad, and I think either AL + 2 WP or L4 + 2 WP, both with 2 magemobiles is the way to go, magically speaking.
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Post by: agnosto
On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.
The new shrines are cute but die to cannons like everything else that's a big target in this game.
Warrior priests, meet sniper maneaters.
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Post by: Tzeentchling9
I really love the War Alter. That is a buffing monster.
I do like the Hurricanium since it's buffs are much more useful(+1 to hit and another PD to power the bounds). It's bound is ok since the results are all decent enough, but each result is random.
I just don't like the Laser since a Cannon heavily overshadows it's bound spell and it's buffs are a little on the meh side.
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Post by: Acardia
The important thing is are they bound items that break or innate bound abilities. If it;s the latter than forcing the laser in turn 1-2 when there is less need for augments and hexes is pretty sweet. Might not be as devastating as a casket of souls, but still nice.
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Post by: Alpharius
ph34r wrote:Alpharius wrote:Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?
I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?
Yeah, you did a bad job. You could have been using it to be snarky or using it to imply your entire post was a joke. Don't get mad when other people don't understand the one true intention of your ": )"
You are also being rather rude and belligerent, I'd rather my Dakka Mod Team did not constantly insult me. I'm attacking your argument, you're attacking me and calling me a tight-ass. Not chill. I have no beef with you and I'd rather you just explain things civilly, I ain't got time for more Dakka Vacations.
...
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
I don't know. The buffs look pretty tasty, but most(if not all) are in the form of Bound Spells. Your mileage may vary, but, in my experience, Bound spells are pretty darn easy to dispell.
It also seems weird to me that practically everything(at least every unit/warmachine, not to well informed on 7th Empire characters) got a points hike(and in some cases a nerf too, Mortar) and the new stuff seem to vary from so-so(Demigryphs/Hurricanium) to kind of lame(Super-laser thing, "Sure, I'll take a dispellable S8 Bolt Thrower instead of a Cannon for the same cost. What?").
Pretty much!
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
++6 is kind of lame, and although the +1DD is nice, I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop and way overshadowed by a similar weapon. The buffs are ok, but it's too many points to for them.
Yup!
ph34r wrote:Good to hear that information. That puts a bit of a hamper on the empire infantry uber-buff-block, at least the detachments do not get it unless they are within range as well.
...
biccat wrote:
But it's really overshadowed by the 5++ you can get from warrior priests.
Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop
The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.
I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.
With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.
This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.
Sounds about right - here come the Warrior Priests!
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Post by: LazzurusMan
I was in GW yesterday and apparently the new empire are VERY hard hitting against the new VC...take with a heap of salt, this blue shirt did also say that the new 40k big box wont be marines and chaos...so yeah...LOTS of salt...
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Post by: Minsc
"Hardhitting against VC" = "Witchhunter will mulch basic VC infantry", if I had to guess. Not a lie (here's a new Empire model that hits new VC, especially if with magic / flaming equipment), but not by any means what was implied either (that new Empire can steamroll VC's if played at equal competitiveness w/ equal skill players).
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Post by: Fenriswulf
As a VC player, Empire have gone pretty much to the top of the list as bad opponents to play against. Demons of Chaos are still up there too.
But the sheer amount of flaming and Light based attacks are scary. I can face any number of cannons and be fine with it, but the lazer is pretty damn scary I have to say.
A lot of the VC army now works on regen (from the Mortis engine, or inherent). An army which can field a multitude of flaming attacks negates this advantage easily, and adding in the other bonus' from the Lore of Light etc, and I will have real troubles going up against them. Not to mention sniping Witch Hunters and Warrior Priests.
I don't understand why so many people are up in arms about this new Empire book. Sounds pretty damn cool to me, and the new rules for detachments make it sound like they will be dead hard to go up against!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Are they coming out today or tommorow?
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Post by: TBD
hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?
Yes
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Post by: hotsauceman1
TBD wrote:hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?
Yes
Well i just got the Engineer from my FLGS.
They release it a day early
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Post by: TBD
hotsauceman1 wrote:TBD wrote:hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?
Yes
Well i just got the Engineer from my FLGS.
They release it a day early
My FLGS usually sells the stuff a couple of days early too... if GW forgets to intentionally send them the new releases late that is 
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.
Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?
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Post by: BorderCountess
ZebioLizard2 wrote:On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.
Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?
Depends on the cavalry and situation. I have very little problem charging my Chaos Knights into other people's cavalry (most of the cavalry I see is either Empire or Brettonians).
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Post by: Alpharius
Manfred von Drakken wrote:ZebioLizard2 wrote:On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.
Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?
Depends on the cavalry and situation. I have very little problem charging my Chaos Knights into other people's cavalry (most of the cavalry I see is either Empire or Brettonians).
That's the example I was going to use - I've seen that particular scenario quite a bit!
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Post by: Snord
I got a closer look at the new Empire models today. I have to say, the sculpting and design of the new war machines isn't up to the standard of recent Warhammer releases - the proportions are off, the 'crew' are poorly sculpted (and ugly) and no amount of ornamentation can hide the fact that they're distinctly uninspired. I have compared the large Warmachine models unfavourably with GW's plastic war machines, but these new Empire designs are greatly inferior. The demigryphs are okay, but the riders are uninspired and unattractive. The giant griffon and the 2 plastic character models seem to be the best of this 'wave'.
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Post by: BorderCountess
Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.
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Post by: ph34r
Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.
So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?
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Post by: BorderCountess
ph34r wrote:Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.
So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?
Since not everyone can feasibly acquire the new units (my wife gave me 'the look' when I told her about even getting the book), making the effectiveness of the army hinge on those units counts as a nerfing to me. As always, your mileage may vary.
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Post by: ph34r
Manfred von Drakken wrote:Since not everyone can feasibly acquire the new units (my wife gave me 'the look' when I told her about even getting the book), making the effectiveness of the army hinge on those units counts as a nerfing to me. As always, your mileage may vary.
Gotcha.
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Post by: Breotan
GW needs to sell models. The new models only sell if there's a need for them.
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Post by: Hoard Of Hordes
Breotan wrote:GW needs to sell models. The new models only sell if there's a need for them.
I understand your point, but allowing people to spend two years painstakingly painting a horde army and then nerfing half of the models in it is not a sustainable way to grow your business - it's a way to get your customers to rage quit and go play warmahordes. A warhammer fantasy army is a massive investment of time and money, the biggest that any of the gaming system's asks for, and you need to know that you are going to get value out of it.
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Post by: kenshin620
Hoard Of Hordes wrote:is not a sustainable way to grow your business
So is
-Rising prices for no reason
-Swapping a tried and true method of production for a miscast ridden one, and then raise prices
-Changing the cover of all army books, and then raise prices
-Changing the contents of a box, such as lowering the amount of models, and then raise prices
and on and on. Remember, GW logic is not business 101 logic
That said people buy their stuff regardless anyways for years now
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Post by: Eidolon
Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.
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Post by: kenshin620
Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.
And there we go! The typical "Why is X army/system getting updated! I dont play X army/system!"
At least 40k got their books right off the bat of 5th, fantasy players had to wait half a year to get their first
At I'm not seeing the 2/1 ratio
5 Fantasy books for 8th. 8 40k books for 5th, and thats not counting all the supplements 40k got and all the FW books. 40k seems to be slower because it is more drawn out timeline wise, plus with the rumors of 6th it will look like this summer will be almost nothing BUT 40k
People are so impulsive and impatient  Remarks like this does not help the schism between each fanbase
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Post by: Radical_Edward
Got some Empire yesterday at the FLGS and paints etc.
They had 2 Witch Hunters in stock. One had a warped sprue and the other didn't, I bought the one that didn't. Mostly a good Finecast, nothing that wouldn't be fixable.
I also got the Empire Captain (broadsword) and on checking out, realized that the Empire Engineer sprue was inside my captain container... so I made sure to get the correct Captain before I left.
Seems like mistakes easily attributed to rushing releases out so fast. I don't play Fantasy, but the models are incredibly well suited for Mordheim. Wish they had more plastic foot dudes in boxes. Deathclaw, the War Machines, etc. are of no use to me.
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Post by: biccat
ph34r wrote:So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?
Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.
The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.
[Insert not sure if serious picture]
inferior system? We have a balanced system compared to whatever 40k wants to be. Just can it and wait for your edition change yea?
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Post by: ph34r
biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.
The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.
Fair enough. What is your opinion on the reroll to wound and 5++ warrior priest powers, along with the parent units giving detachments steadfast? If I am not mistaken (I might be!) these are new and strong abilities for standard infantry?
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Post by: Ehsteve
biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.
The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.
T3 and nearly 60pts? Sorry when a unit can be plinked to death by arrow reliably and you can take Reiksguard for a comparible cost (being stubborn and all) or can get a flaggelant horde due to uncapping, they should be at the bottom of the priority list unless you're in it purely for the models. For the demigryph's points cost you won't be able to get enough models to negate steadfast ever (a unit of 6 will cost around 350pts unupgraded in any way). Expect them to be held up in combat until weight of attacks bring them down.
Inner circle are Core now anyway, so they don't eat into your Special points allotment and you can have both if you want (now being able to both have your cake and eat it).
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Ehsteve wrote:biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.
The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.
T3 and nearly 60pts? Sorry when a unit can be plinked to death by arrow reliably and you can take Reiksguard for a comparible cost (being stubborn and all) or can get a flaggelant horde due to uncapping, they should be at the bottom of the priority list unless you're in it purely for the models. For the demigryph's points cost you won't be able to get enough models to negate steadfast ever (a unit of 6 will cost around 350pts unupgraded in any way). Expect them to be held up in combat until weight of attacks bring them down.
Inner circle are Core now anyway, so they don't eat into your Special points allotment and you can have both if you want (now being able to both have your cake and eat it).
Demigryphs are 3W with 1+ saves. I don't think S3 is going to do much.
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Post by: scarletsquig
^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.
Flagellants are laughably bad. 12 points for standard human statline with flails and no armour (yes, that means worse stats than chaos marauders), and you have to kill d6 of them per turn before they can hurt anything.
Yeah, they're unbreakable, but that doesn't really matter when state troops and their detachments are clocking in with LD 10, Hold the Line, BSB support and possibly Stubborn/Steadfast as well. They are an incredibly easy target for magic and missile fire, easily baited, and even if they do make it into combat, they'll gradually kill themselves over time, so you can throw cheap units at them like hounds or slaves or goblins and watch the unit kill itself.
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Post by: SonicPara
scarletsquig wrote:^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.
Demigryph Knights count as T3. The Knight's T3 trumps the mount's T4.
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Post by: Ehsteve
scarletsquig wrote:^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.
Flagellants are laughably bad. 12 points for standard human statline with flails and no armour (yes, that means worse stats than chaos marauders), and you have to kill d6 of them per turn before they can hurt anything.
Yeah, they're unbreakable, but that doesn't really matter when state troops and their detachments are clocking in with LD 10, Hold the Line, BSB support and possibly Stubborn/Steadfast as well. They are an incredibly easy target for magic and missile fire, easily baited, and even if they do make it into combat, they'll gradually kill themselves over time, so you can throw cheap units at them like hounds or slaves or goblins and watch the unit kill itself.
Troll much? Monstrous Cavalry, they use the same rules as cavalry (never use the tougness or wounds of the mount for stats) with the exception that with monstrous cavalry, you use the highest wound value between the rider and mount (in this case the 3 wound demigryph). I suggest you read the main rulebook (cavalry p82-83, monstrous cavalry p83).
Flaggelants are awesome because now you can run units of 50 (or whatever number you feel is necessary). Units of 50 which can be buffed by a double Hurricanum for +2 to Hit (no rules to say they do not stack). Their new martyr table is no worse than before since it's d6 S3 hits (4+ to wound) so on average you're losing just as much as the old d3 system. Lore of Life them back to full strength, Lore of Shadow the enemy tougness down or otherwise Lore of Light them for +1 Attack, your have battle wizards with access to all 8 lores.
Also finally my Hellblasters have some use given the new misfire table means there's no 1 in 2 chance of rolling on the old misfire table of doom.
There are ways around the empire leadership bubble: death sniping the captain/general/ BSB, Doom and Darkness and Iceshard Blizard. Not to mention that 3d6 Hold the Line! is on break tests, not panic tests, can't benefit from Inspiring Presence or Hold the Line! when he's fleeing.
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Post by: Brother-Captain Scotti
Johnny-Crass wrote:Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.
[Insert not sure if serious picture]
inferior system? We have a balanced system compared to whatever 40k wants to be. Just can it and wait for your edition change yea?
Brets?
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Post by: biccat
Ehsteve wrote:T3 and nearly 60pts? Sorry when a unit can be plinked to death by arrow reliably
Plinked to death by arrows? They may be only T3, but they've got a 1+ (even with halberds against shooting). Plus, they're cavalry, so they can charge a long ways.
Ehsteve wrote:or can get a flaggelant horde due to uncapping
Flaggelant's are terrible now. And more expensive.
Ehsteve wrote:For the demigryph's points cost you won't be able to get enough models to negate steadfast ever (a unit of 6 will cost around 350pts unupgraded in any way).
1) Like most cavalry, they're not going to negate steadfast...ever. Their purpose is to do wounds.
2) No one will ever run multiple ranks because most of your attacks come from the mount.
ph34r wrote:Fair enough. What is your opinion on the reroll to wound and 5++ warrior priest powers, along with the parent units giving detachments steadfast? If I am not mistaken (I might be!) these are new and strong abilities for standard infantry?
I like them, but they're going to be fickle. Your opponent can dispel a lot of the bound spells. However, with the change from "cast 1 prayer per turn" to "the WP has 3 bound spells," I think you stand a good chance of depleting your opponent's dispel pool, allowing you to get a few prayers off.
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Post by: ceorron
I want to get one just to paint it up like a chocobo.
Maybe I should buy a set and do a chocobo race diorama?
What do people think?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Yes. Make the riders scantily clad anime cheesecakes.
It shall be hilarious xD
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Post by: Ehsteve
biccat wrote:Plinked to death by arrows? They may be only T3, but they've got a 1+ (even with halberds against shooting). Plus, they're cavalry, so they can charge a long ways.
T3 opens them up to a majority of weapon handguns and crossbows wound on 3+ which means a majority of hits are now wounding, meaning more saves and a 1+ can still be failed (3+ with handguns), with their average leadership. Regular archers are wounding on 4+, and why not? The archers will easily be able to make their points back if they manage to break the demigryph unit. In a unit of 3, once only 1 model is left, you're reallying on double 1s if they break. You also are only M7, nothing special for cavalry. Mournfang are far more effective in their role.
biccat wrote:Flaggelant's are terrible now. And more expensive.
How is getting an average weaponskill terrible? Now against average troops the Flaggelants are no longer being hit on 3+, now just 4+, that improves their survivability greatly (see Bretonnian peasants). Points have gone up but they are now uncapped.
biccat wrote:1) Like most cavalry, they're not going to negate steadfast...ever. Their purpose is to do wounds.
2) No one will ever run multiple ranks because most of your attacks come from the mount.
To do wound and what? Hold things in combat? In a game of steadfast these look like they are only going to lose combat due to the opponents static combat res, if the enemy does any damage (with massed attacks very possible as they are T3) then they've lost even more. Even if they win the enemy is sitting there on unmodified leadership, good luck. If you're throwing this unit at smaller chaff unit, you're wasting their points.
biccat wrote:ph34r wrote:Fair enough. What is your opinion on the reroll to wound and 5++ warrior priest powers, along with the parent units giving detachments steadfast? If I am not mistaken (I might be!) these are new and strong abilities for standard infantry?
I like them, but they're going to be fickle. Your opponent can dispel a lot of the bound spells. However, with the change from "cast 1 prayer per turn" to "the WP has 3 bound spells," I think you stand a good chance of depleting your opponent's dispel pool, allowing you to get a few prayers off.
Totally agree, the strength of the army is not in the prayers (no unbreakable prayer anymore) they're simply useful as situations arise. I would reserve dice for the spells that matter from your battle wizards.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Seems like the Empire will get a new battalion box in May. Some people interpreted a leaked WD page on Necrons that way (lower left, half hidden left page). We will see this week.
Edit: I can confirm that the Empire will get a battalion box on 5th May.
Content: 20 State Troops, 10 Handgunners/Crossbowmen, 8 Empire Knights and one cannon (85 €).
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Post by: kenshin620
Toss out the greatswords and put in a cannon, that costs about half as much
And yet they only drop the price by $5. Way to go GW
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Post by: Snrub
kenshin620 wrote:Toss out the greatswords and put in a cannon, that costs about half as much
And yet they only drop the price by $5. Way to go GW
Did you expect something different?
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Post by: timetowaste85
Wait, the last battalion had 10 state troops, 10 ranged state troops, a cannon, knights and pistoliers/outriders, right? So the new one is just replacing the P/O with another 10 state troops. Or am I horribly mistaken? (Seeing how I just bought this box, I don't think I'm too mistaken ) Okay, just checked google-did they have 2 separate Empire boxes out, plus the reinforcement box of wizards, helblaster, flagellants and STs?
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Post by: Zoned
The odds of doing a wound to a Demigryph knight is so bad it's almost never worth shooting at them with conventional small arms. For example, it would take 24 long range Elven bow shots just to do one wound. And unlike regular knights where rolling a "1" means less attacks, Demigryphs lose zero punch after suffering two wounds. Taking a standard Life wizard keeps them topped up on wounds as well.
Ehsteve wrote: In a unit of 3, once only 1 model is left, you're reallying on double 1s if they break. You also are only M7, nothing special for cavalry. Mournfang are far more effective in their role.
You only rally on snake eyes once down to 25% or less. 1 out of 3 is 33%. Mournfang are better on the charge but generally worse than Demigryphs after the charge due to their lower initiative, WS, and save. Also, they are far more susceptible to the big Initiative spells.
Flagellants generally got worse in the new book. Pros: Uncapped, Special, better WS. Cons: Can lose their Frenzy, must Martyr, Martyr is far less reliable, significant points increase (20%)
From experience I can tell you that Demigryphs are very good at grinding down steadfast blocks. 1+ armour goes a huge distance against most infantry in the game. They obviously have bad matchups (Chosen, Chaos Warriors, Temple Guard, Savage Orc Big Uns) but they will grind down almost any infantry unit in the game. Static res on most units is 4, 3 Demigryphs alone can easily score that (not counting Knight attacks or stomps.)
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Post by: Snrub
Wait wait wait wait..... Is one of those state troopers not wearing shoes?? What is this, Woodstock!? Somebody get that man some shoes for crying out loud. He's a Solider in the Emperors army, not some free company scum sucker.
No no seriously why doesn't he have shoes? Whos bright idea was that?
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Post by: Red_Zeke
Love the knights in the 4 wide formation. You know your kit is old when...
Snrub wrote:Wait wait wait wait..... Is one of those state troopers not wearing shoes?? What is this, Woodstock!? Somebody get that man some shoes for crying out loud. He's a Solider in the Emperors army, not some free company scum sucker.
No no seriously why doesn't he have shoes? Whos bright idea was that?
This is a subject of much hate 'n' debate with Empire players...
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Post by: Kroothawk
Snrub wrote:No no seriously why doesn't he have shoes? Whos bright idea was that?
He is the famous guy who said: "Ratmen? Nonsense, there are no ratmen. I will eat my shoes if anyone can show me a single ratman!"
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Post by: Thunderfrog
Kroothawk wrote:Snrub wrote:No no seriously why doesn't he have shoes? Whos bright idea was that?
He is the famous guy who said: "Ratmen? Nonsense, there are no ratmen. I will eat my shoes if anyone can show me a single ratman!"
lol Kroot.
That's about a perfect caption.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
They are Stirlanders.... Too poor to afford shoes
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Post by: Aerethan
Johnny-Crass wrote:They are Stirlanders.... Too poor to afford shoes
A single Stirlander in a Talabheim army...
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