Lynata wrote:Eh, I dunno. Power armour reflecting hotshot rounds is reason enough for me to facepalm.
Why is that? I thought that Astartes armor was made to reflect TANK shots.
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Void__Dragon wrote:
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.
Lynata wrote:Eh, I dunno. Power armour reflecting hotshot rounds is reason enough for me to facepalm.
Why is that? I thought that Astartes armor was made to reflect TANK shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.
Astartes armour is certainly not made to reflect tankshots. It offers reliable protection against most anti infantry weapons ( with the exception of plasma weapons ) but most tanks usualy
carry weapons that are designed to penetrate the much thicker ( in relation to astartes powerarmour ) armour of other tanks.
If you want protection against anti tank weapons then the superheavy Terminator armour is probably the most reliable, although far from perfect, choice.
The Adeptus Astartes (commonly known as Space Marines, and colloquially as Angels of Death) are the most elite and feared fighting forces of the imperium.
quoted from Codex Imperialis. That's for those (i do not know how many) peeps that seem to do some SM-hating. Also, i do not know where i'm quoting this from (i'm checking my books right now) but i have seen this:
Space marines can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank.
Space marines can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank.
Can. Doesnt mean they always can do so with reliability. I think that line comes up in the Codex somewhere, and if I also recall correctly, some of the stuff in there you will need to take as a little bit hyperbole.
Is Dan drinking alot or is he just very cold? That nose looks redder than Rudolph's. Kidding, I love Dan Abnett because he isn't a slave to so called "Canon" but furthermore he is an intelligent and articulate man who obviously is thinking deeply and weaving a real fabric into the 40k universe.
It's not just as simple as write about this subject, he keeps it interesting and puts some interesting dynamics and story vehicles in there (e.g. Characters and viewpoints).
So?
Ultramarines had 250,000 Astartes prior to Heresy. Dan Abnett said it himself.
Where?
See from 7:41 to 7:55.
And my mistake: they had 250.000 combat ready Space Marines, without reserves.
Well a cynic might say that an author interview doesn't constituate canon until it's written on paper.
However, I'm not one of those people! Especially since this confirms exactly what I've always believed!
Well, it makes sense that the largest founding would have been the Second. Building a chapter from scratch would be incredibly difficult. The chapter wouldn't even be viable for decades until it had enough fully matured Marines and some kind of leadership. Heck, the more you think about it, creating a new chapter from nothing seems almost impossible.
But if there were approximately 400 Second Founding chapters like the new GK codex suggests, then they are breaking up the nine loyal legions, with gobs of combat experience, plenty of officers and veteran sergeants. And if the Ultramarines are the primogenitors of 3/5ths of the Astartes, it jives that their Post-Reconstruction numbers would have been right around that range too.
i'd think troop numbers will vary over time or due to attrition even before the Heresy. I doubt they can stay at 'absolute max" all the time. and the ultramarines, IIRC had the entire system to draw on for resources, whereas most other Legions had only one planet or so.
HH Collected visions had the numbers of 100,000 as a minimum for Legions, and mentioning the Ultramarines had 250,000, but there were other bits of the collected visions (and other novels by other authors in the HH series) that implied far smaller numbers (the tens of thousands of troops in a Legion.)
The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
Based on that we can hypothesize a few things:
1. SM dont die all that often
2. The numbers are fudged to make there seem like there are less SM than there actually are for "propaganda purposes".
mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.
mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
Well it would usually be reserve company marines replacing casualties, and scouts replacing reserve company marines.
mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.
mwnciboo wrote:The problem as I see it is that 40k modern Chapters really aren't geared towards high attrition or even moderate attrition.
Given the rarity of recruits, the high failure rate, the exceptionally long training, then no more than a trickle of new blood would come into the fighting companies. I really cannot fathom how one scout company numbering 100 can supply enough personnel to supply 9 Line companies with replacements and still have strength enough to conduct it's own operations.
It's a miracle any Marine lives long enough to ever get a Service Stud.
The last codex retconned it a bit to where the 10th company isn't limited to 100 scouts.
It's never been limited to 100.
Yes, Scouts were not "Trainees" previously. The 10th was an honoured company like the rest.
Can you provide a source for that? Because I can guarantee that there have been no fixed sizes of Scout Companies in Codex chapters dating back to 2nd Edition.
er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).
The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.
9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?
Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).
mwnciboo wrote:er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).
The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.
9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?
Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).
Thats something that has always made me wonder. I know there are 10 squads of 10 in each company. On top of that there is:
In each company:
Company master
Company Chaplin
Above the company:
Chapter Master
Master of the forge
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet
That makes 26.
On top of that you have tech marines (probably around 10), other chaplins (at least 1 - Company masters retinue, possibly more who care for the dead), Librarians (possibly 11. One for each company plus one in the chaper masters retinue). That makes 48.
Then you have the dreadnoughts - I would guess at aroung 10 in a chapter. Thats 58.
On top of that the scout company is lead by full SM's, so the sargents, company master, chaplin etc. Minimum of 11. Thats 68.
That just leaves 32 to find somewhere else in an "ideal" codex force. Its not impossible that 1000 could not include the scouts.
mwnciboo wrote:er the fact that CODEX Chapters are always 1,000 Combat marines (Not including specialists).
The structure is in Codex Space Marine, 9 Line Companies of 100, plus the 10th.
9 x 100 = 900
Or
1000 - 900 = 100..... or there abouts?
Otherwise the 1000 Combat Marines in a Chapter cannot apply can it? Or are Scouts not included and the Last 100 are made up of all the ancillary staff (Techmarines etc).
Thats something that has always made me wonder. I know there are 10 squads of 10 in each company. On top of that there is:
In each company:
Company master Company Chaplin
Above the company:
Chapter Master
Master of the forge
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet
That makes 26.
On top of that you have tech marines (probably around 10), other chaplins (at least 1 - Company masters retinue, possibly more who care for the dead), Librarians (possibly 11. One for each company plus one in the chaper masters retinue). That makes 48.
Then you have the dreadnoughts - I would guess at aroung 10 in a chapter. Thats 58.
On top of that the scout company is lead by full SM's, so the sargents, company master, chaplin etc. Minimum of 11. Thats 68.
That just leaves 32 to find somewhere else in an "ideal" codex force. Its not impossible that 1000 could not include the scouts.
I'll start at the top:
The captain of a company would be withing the 100, as he leads a squad.
Master of the armory/arsenal
Master of the watch
Master of the recruits
Master of the Fleet
Those are all secondary titles for the captains of the battle companies and 10th company captain. Meaning you're counting something you've already counted.
There would not likely be 10, they seem to be a bit rarer than that. maybe 5, tops? And either way specialists are outside the normal counting of marines, meaning it would be 1000+specialists. And librarians would be a LOT rarer than that. I can't see there being more than a handful per chapter.
Most chapter have only 2-3 dreads from what I gather, with some occasionally having slightly more, and many having none.
The full SM in the scout company would be part of it's organisation.
Depending on how realistic you want to be, a Space Marine chapter probably has between 1400 and 1500 total Marines in it. I've been told this is a "tired" argument that's been brought up "countless" times, lol.
But the Thunderhawks listed as operated by the Ultramarines would take 93 Marines alone to crew. That's almost an entire company. If you look at the other vehicles the Ultramarines are reported to operate, it's between another 150-200 Marines. Then you have Techmarines, Chaplains, Librarians, Apothecaries, the members of the command squads and Honor Guard, etc. You can suggest that vehicles are crewed by members of the Reserve companies, but then it would take two and a half to three full companies of Marines to crew the vehicles, which makes them pretty much useless as "reserve" forces. Especially since we've been told that the Reserve companies have other duties too (land speeders, bikes, etc).
The wording has always been "around 1000". And it's fairly clear that the 1000 is meant to be a line strength of the infantry portion of the Chapter. Remember, the 1000 number has been given to us "out of character" so to speak, and not as how it is specifically written in the Codex Astartes.
mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?
If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.
If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?
They would be combat marines.
I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.
Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.
i always wondered if the 10th represented the Sergeants who could potentially lead scouts. i mean I always wondered where they kept them, and the 1000-strong number is supposed to be for "battle brothers" as I recall (or at least thats the context i can usually recall seeing) and scouts aren't a full space marine until they get all their implants (and thus might be exempt from the normal strictures.)
Other than that I've always seen the 1000-Marine rule as more of a guideline rather than an absolute. the Codex is enforced largely by tradition (and to an exten by threat of annihilation if the Inquisition or perhaps other Marine Chapters believed the Chapter in question was trying ot pull another Huron) and there is nothing beyond them exceeding limits (I mean the Black Templars have done it and it is barely tolerated. The Space wolves do it as well. as long as they don't cross the line too much, there seems to be no issue with it.) And Space marines are fairly precious - they're not going to purge the surplus Marines just to keep to some arbitrary limit, and its impossible to completely and utterly control the rate of recruiting or the loss rates among Marines - they're either going tobe perpetually understrength, or they will be overstrength by a (slight) degree. this probably depends on what sorts of actions the Marines are involved in -heavy participation in a warzone would lead to more leniency in exceeidng the limit (esp if they are suffering heavy casualties) - the 5th edition codex certianly hinted that. But in that case they're only going to be overstrength by a relatively small degree.. maybea few hundred tops.. Jumping from 1000 to say, 3000 is probably going to be looked at rather unfavorably.
One could also make the argument that the 1000-marine number represents the troops available to deploy to wars en-masse. It may not include 'extras' like the Marines who command or operate the starships.. the techmarines, those who are involved in recruitment in training, or who occupy distant outposts.. or exceptional things like the Wolfblade.
mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?
If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.
If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?
They would be combat marines.
I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.
Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.
That would imply the quality of Space Marines would vary, depending on when they were recruited. I personally don't think that's the case.
mwnciboo wrote:If that is the case, we 100 short, because are Scouts Combat Astartes?
If they are then the Scout Company must be about 100.
If not, then the Chapter needs to find 100 Combat Marines from somewhere?
They would be combat marines.
I feel like there wouldn't be a limit on the number of scouts, but that having a full scout company would mean more rigorous screening, meaning when it is near 100, they wouldn't be bringing in enough scouts to get it over 100, but they would have higher quality scouts.
Also, scouts can (and sometimes do) have all the organs except the black carapace.
That would imply the quality of Space Marines would vary, depending on when they were recruited. I personally don't think that's the case.
I do. If they can afford to screen them with another 2 or three tests, they will only get the best of the best...of the best. Of course the quality DOES vary, they are not all clones. That is why you have your Calgars and Lysanders.
Sorry if this has already been said, and apologies if this comes across as trolling. I admitt now that I have not read every post but a lot of people seem to be falling into the same old traps.
Real life, 40k fluff and 40k rules do not mesh and are not compareable. Sorry just seen these arguments too many times.
Real life Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years. A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.
40K Fluff 40k fluff is designed to give the table top game flavour, so you have a reason to fight and your men have a personality rather than just bits of plastic. Marines in most novels are plaine riduclous in game terms, either that or have the best dice rolling ever. The fluff changes so often it could never be considered cast iron. There are always exceptions to rules and reimagining of the subject. At best it could be compared to our own history, as in, our understanding changes as new facts come to life and different people examine the subject. History is nt written in a vacume and neither is 40k fluff.
40k Rules 40k rules are there, in theory, to make an even and playable game. Weapons in real life can not be broken down into 10 strength catergories with 6 levels of armor penertration. Yes they try to reflect some of the fluff but considering how much that contradicts it self and they have to keep the game (in theory) balanced, the accuracy varies. For instance DKK shoot and fight as well as Space marines and our stubborn to boot. So in fluff terms why spend all that time and effort creating marines with geneseeds when you can just nuke a world and turn into a never ending war.
SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.
Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.
This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.
SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.
Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.
This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.
You miss the point. 40k universe laws =/= reality laws.
So if Lasgun can shoot trough 3m of solid concrete - it can. But can't do the same thing here.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, Melissia, this one's for you: have you ever read that "Space Marines can shrug of hits that would put holes in a battle tank"?
Yes, but in context it was referring to a modern battletank (IE like an Abrams), not a Leman Russ Battle Tank. A Marine's armor cannot take shrug off multiple hits from a weapon that can penetrate the front armor of an LRBT or a Land Raider.
KingDeath wrote:Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. .
Lasguns are a good deal more powerful than a modern day assault rifle. Assasult rifles don't blow off limbs or punch fist-sized holes in people. Your average AK-47 will not do that.Any discrepancies to the lasgun damage are easily explained by variable power settings as shown in the novels.
Our very own Connor Macleod calced the lasgun here:
SpankHammer III wrote:
Real life Real life is real life, Space marines don't exist and won't (if you go by 40k time lines) for what 28,000 years.
A lasgun can not be compared to a AK47 or any other assault rifle as it does not exist. The most detailed description of there abilites, i've seen, are in the RPG books which make them reasonably comparable in matters of range and things like ammo capacity but that's it. S D10+3 is not real. Plassteel, cermite and rockcrete are not real life materials and unless GW release detailed info about their chemical composition I don't see how you can try and compare them to anything that exist in the real world, especially to the point that you can say anyone is right or wrong.
Unless 40k humans are made of super duper 40k flesh we can get at least a rough idea on what a lasgun can do. Since, with a few notable exceptions, the lasgun doesn't appear to cause much greater or more massive wounds than a modern assault rifle we could supose that both are more or less comparable. From that point we can make a bunch of further guesses like, flakarmour is possibly not much more resilent than modern body armour and the like. So while we do not know exactly from what the various 40k weapons are made we can observe their impact on materials we know, stone, flesh, wood and the like.
This leads me to the conclusion that at least the very basic weapons ( autoguns, lasguns ) are not much more destructive than modern day weapons.
Actually, lasgun have a decidedly larger effect than modern assault rifle. They can rip your arm off with a solid, direct hit. They cause a small explosion upon impact.
Though I do agree autoguns would basically be modern rifles.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.
Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.
On the topic of the lasgun, I read Dead Men Walking by Steve Lyons, a civilian gets her arm cut of by a normal lasgun (IIRC not even the Lucius pattern of the DKoK that were involved, it was a PDF weapon).
However, even the hellgun and the stronger Lucius lasgun needed a lot of hits to fell and Necron warrior (as resilient as a SM? More? Less? But thats not the point of this post) and Flayed Ones.
The author do make a few mistakes regarding weapons (hellguns with shorter reach than the lasgun for one).
OT: I'll go with most people here, Stromtroopers/Kasrkins/Grenadiers are the special forces as we see it and the SM are shocktroops.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.
Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.
The Gaunt's Ghosts books are also terrible. So I guess that does make sense.
Brother Coa wrote:Here, Railguns go trough the target. In 40k they explode in it witch is impossible here.
I'm not actually sure what fluff you've been reading.
Since there is a story of a Tau Railgun firing through the front and out the back of a Leman Russ, which created a vacuum that pulled the crew through the little hole it left.
US Issue White Dwarf 300 January 2005
"Space Marines In The Movies: Chapter Unapproved"
a.k.a. What Marine stats would look like if we said to the blackest depths of hell with fairness and made them like the fiction.
Space Marine
WSBS S T W I A LdSv 5 5 6 6 2 5 3 9 3+
Equipment: Bolter, Combat Knife, Grenades
Bolter Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 4, Rending
Combat Knife attacks count as Rending
Grenade Range 6" S8 AP3 Assault 1, Blast
Oh and they have Fleet, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, and their armor save counts as invulnerable and they get to re-roll failed saves not to mention a couple custom special rules. Straken doesn't look so tough now. Happy?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.
Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.
The Gaunt's Ghosts books are also terrible. So I guess that does make sense.
Fortunately that is entirely a matter of opinion that does not change what’s written down across multiple pieces of fluff.
Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not actually arguing that they can penetrate three meters of concrete so I'm unsure what your post is meant to be addressing.
If something is possible in Warhammer 40000 - it's not possible in our universe.
And the other way around.
Here, Railguns go trough the target. In 40k they explode in it witch is impossible here.
So Lasgun here can't breach 1m of concrete, in 40k it can breach 3m.
You see my point?
Actually, railgun are just super-penetrating weapon that turn anything in an enclosed space to soup in 40k. It is in real life where they have something more of a tomahawk missile effect on the target, due to the kinetic energies and plasma forming around the projectile.
Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.
But even if we assume that all lasguns for some reason were "single setting" only, we know from multiple sources that they have different kinds of powerpacks (like the normal and the hotshot packs) and that they cn (if the weapon is designed to use them) offer variable performance. Like the hotshot packs, or the overcharge packs, or so on. Lasguns are also so endlessly customizable that it would be pretty easy to adapt them to higher outputs just by swapping out components (thats what the Krieg have for their lasrifles, after all.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: railguns. A hypervelocity projectile (like a railgun, or an asteroid impact, or similar) "explodes" because it carries so much energy that the projectile as well as the target melts/vaporizes on impact, which can create an "explosive" effect that we would typically associate with bombs. I think I'm oversimplifying it somewhat, but basically the idea is that if you have a strong enough projectile (or target) it wouldn't neccesarily "explode" instantly on impact. We really dont knwo what Tau railgun projectiles are composed of (even if they said 'steel' that wouldn't help, because steels are alloys and they can be alloyed with alot of different things to give differing properties.)
There also is typically a "threshold' of around 3-4 km/s before hypervelocity impact effects become really noticable (although 10+ km/s is where they are even more noticable.) RL and future tank guns settled on a 2-2.5 km/s muzzle velocity as an ideal point between the hypervelocity threshold as well as improving penetrative qualities, and most of the sources we have on tau railgun velocity further allow them to perform within that threshold (depending on sources, the lower limt on velocity is like 6-8x the speed of sound.)
Connor MacLeod wrote:Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.
But even if we assume that all lasguns for some reason were "single setting" only, we know from multiple sources that they have different kinds of powerpacks (like the normal and the hotshot packs) and that they cn (if the weapon is designed to use them) offer variable performance. Like the hotshot packs, or the overcharge packs, or so on. Lasguns are also so endlessly customizable that it would be pretty easy to adapt them to higher outputs just by swapping out components (thats what the Krieg have for their lasrifles, after all.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: railguns. A hypervelocity projectile (like a railgun, or an asteroid impact, or similar) "explodes" because it carries so much energy that the projectile as well as the target melts/vaporizes on impact, which can create an "explosive" effect that we would typically associate with bombs. I think I'm oversimplifying it somewhat, but basically the idea is that if you have a strong enough projectile (or target) it wouldn't neccesarily "explode" instantly on impact. We really dont knwo what Tau railgun projectiles are composed of (even if they said 'steel' that wouldn't help, because steels are alloys and they can be alloyed with alot of different things to give differing properties.)
There also is typically a "threshold' of around 3-4 km/s before hypervelocity impact effects become really noticable (although 10+ km/s is where they are even more noticable.) RL and future tank guns settled on a 2-2.5 km/s muzzle velocity as an ideal point between the hypervelocity threshold as well as improving penetrative qualities, and most of the sources we have on tau railgun velocity further allow them to perform within that threshold (depending on sources, the lower limt on velocity is like 6-8x the speed of sound.)
The overcharge packs are sexy. They are strong enough to bust a chaos dreadnought the feth up.
re:re: Railguns, I know, trust me, I have had WAY too many railgun debates on dakka. but the codex for tau has a clear quote on it's effect on a tank, so that is what they do in wh40k. However, in real life, railguns shots are like this:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note the plasma trailing it. Also, a description of a railgun:
"Railguns are being researched as weapons with projectiles that do not contain explosives, but are given extremely high velocities: 3,500 m/s (11,500 ft/s, approximately Mach 10 at sea level) or more (for comparison, the M16 rifle has a muzzle speed of 930 m/s, or 3,050 ft/s), which would make their kinetic energy equal or superior to the energy yield of an explosive-filled shell of greater mass. This would allow more ammunition to be carried and eliminate the hazards of carrying explosives in a tank or naval weapons platform. Also, by firing at greater velocities railguns have greater range, less bullet drop and less wind drift, bypassing the inherent cost and physical limitations of conventional firearms–"the limits of gas expansion prohibit launching an unassisted projectile to velocities greater than about 1.5 km/s and ranges of more than 50 miles [80 km] from a practical conventional gun system."[13]
If it were possible to apply the technology as a rapid-fire automatic weapon, a railgun would have further advantages of increased rate of fire. The feed mechanisms of a conventional firearm must move to accommodate the propellant charge as well as the ammunition round, while a railgun would only need to accommodate the projectile. Furthermore, a railgun would not have to extract a spent cartridge case from the breech, meaning that a fresh round could be cycled almost immediately after the previous round has been shot"
Connor MacLeod wrote:Third edition codex rules also indicate lasguns have varaibel power settings (charge slider I believe they identify it as.) I'm pretty sure there are other cases in the fluff that do so as well, that's the only case I can recall off hand.
Games Workshop has the "Triplex"-pattern as the (only named) lasgun model that has a variable power slider - it's mentioned in both the Inquisitor RPG and the current Guard Codex. The Mars-pattern had an official picture in the 2E Rulebook where it was shown with a power slider, but in later sources this seems to have been retconned in favour of the Triplex (as it is mentioned as an advantage over other patterns, including the Mars). And then of course you have various licensed sources going by completely different interpretations altogether.
As always, there is little consistency and no canon fact.
The Kantrael pattern has a variable power slider. Most Lasguns do actually have a variable power slider.
The Triplex is the only one I can think of, outside of whatever model the Tanith Ghosts had, that could swap between a "burst" and "single shot" fire mode though.
Yes, well, not as per the latest Guard Codex and GW's Inquisitor RPG. As I said, the studio has been retconning a few things and certain licensed products have simply invented stuff that GW didn't bother to adopt.
In the Inquisitor RPG, the Necromunda-pattern has the fire selector. The Triplex is set apart by the power slider - which, according to the current Guard Codex, also makes it different from the Kantrael, whose defining feature is simple robustness.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, Melissia, this one's for you: have you ever read that "Space Marines can shrug of hits that would put holes in a battle tank"?
Yes, but in context it was referring to a modern battletank (IE like an Abrams), not a Leman Russ Battle Tank. A Marine's armor cannot take shrug off multiple hits from a weapon that can penetrate the front armor of an LRBT or a Land Raider.
Where does it say it to be a modern battle tank? The previous posts say that you shouldn't mix real life and 40k together. Surely it must mean an simply average 40k battle tank. (something in between a leman russ and a chimera)
It also does not say which facing ti is hit upon, so i assume it is front, because that is where most tanks are hit.
VoxTraffic wrote:US Issue White Dwarf 300 January 2005
"Space Marines In The Movies: Chapter Unapproved"
a.k.a. What Marine stats would look like if we said to the blackest depths of hell with fairness and made them like the fiction.
Space Marine
WSBS S T W I A LdSv 5 5 6 6 2 5 3 9 3+
Equipment: Bolter, Combat Knife, Grenades
Bolter Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 4, Rending
Combat Knife attacks count as Rending
Grenade Range 6" S8 AP3 Assault 1, Blast
Oh and they have Fleet, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, and their armor save counts as invulnerable and they get to re-roll failed saves not to mention a couple custom special rules. Straken doesn't look so tough now. Happy?
I fully agree that this is what the marines would be like, but as you all know they have been pushed down quite a bit for two (2) reasons; game balance and as to not force IG, Ork and Tyranid players to get massive collections to even be able to play.
IMO, Space Marines are not neccessarily shocktroops OR special forces.
Ever heard the quote "Space Marines excel in all theatres of war"? (from some WD, i think.)
They simply do what the situation requires.
Then why are you in this thread or even botherng to debate if you have this opinion? To be able to debate this kind of topics we have to apply Suspension of Disbelief and try to find some consistency and rationalize the inconsistencies.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Though I do agree autoguns would basically be modern rifles.
I think that they have higher calibers and are said to be caseless.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Gree wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lasguns in the novels are like power armor. Their strength is proportionate to their need to advance the storyline.
Actually in this case the Gaunt’s Ghosts books conveniently explains that lasguns have variable power settings. Dark Heresy has the same thing but adds a variety of different models to lasguns.
The Gaunt's Ghosts books are also terrible. So I guess that does make sense.
Its canon so get over it. Just because you dislike smething doesn't mean its not canon and fact. For example, I dislike the NewCron codex but I don't go spewing it bad and not true to fluff etc.
Multiple sources everywhere have stated that Lasguns can have variable settings and their powerpacks themselves can be varible in that there are different types and there are also different types of Lasguns.
I hate them! Why you ask? Because of the never ending bitching they cause from all sides of the 40k fandom. On one side you have for example; Lynata who yearns for consistency, rules and stats ruling over all and a return to older fluff of 2nd edition and whatever older edition etc, on another you have alien fans who hate their side being used as Bolter porn to show how awesome Marines are and dispute Marines being all powerful etc and on the other end you have Marine fanboys who well do what fanboys do for their toys.
I say its all GW's fault .
I say to hell with the SM's(Both Chaos and loyal) and hell even the Tau. To me its the Imperial Guard and Inquisition who rule! Don't get me wrong I like Orks but at the end of the day, I just love the IG and respect and fear the Inquisition.
@ The movie marine profile, that is absolutely not what they would be like if they were like fiction.
They would be almost identical to what they are now, but with some special rules maybe to help make them more flexible.
S6 is ridiculous. As is W2. As is T6.
Sly Marbo, who kills armies, wouldn't be able to kill one. And in the fluff, he most assuredly COULD kill them. Also, Bolters S6 makes no sense. Making them almost as strong as plasma is just stupid.
Yeah, but Sly Marbo would also be a lot tougher if he was like the fiction. The movie marines are only slightly over the top because Marines are described as OTT by themselves.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I meant that normal 40k marines is pushed down for game balance, not "movie marines".
Well, in that case I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but that post really read as if you'd advocate the Movie Marines statline you posted as "fluffy". For some fiction it would be appropriate, there I can agree, as some Marine fiction is just as over the top as the Movie Marine rules. Though I suppose almost every army has some novels where the protagonists appear like that - it's quite simply the "hero bonus".
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The movie marines are only slightly over the top
The article flat out states that it ignores physical realities and makes liberal use of exaggeration for the sake of epicness. I'd say that is far from "slightly". But of course it all comes down to one's own interpretation. Personally, I know what has to be able to kill a Marine in the fluff, so that is a good indicator that they cannot be far from where they are now.
Tbh, the only thing I'd change would be to give them a second wound to make them harder to kill.
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