Given how capable modern Special Forces are, Space Marines with their Super human physiques, armour and overpowered weapons would be able capable of doing immense damage. If a Marine wanted to sacrifice himself, surely he could grab a power weapon and a Jump pack and turn himself into a guided missile and impale a Daemon/titan Bridge/Tank at 300mph using the blade . Given their heightened senses, reactions and strength they would be able to feats akin to circus gymnast, parkour runner, and high level martial artist. They look brutal, but their tactics never seem to tally with the capabilities of their armour. Charging through walls for example, ripping plates off the sides of tanks. A Marine on Jump pack, would hurtle at titan, slam into the bridge drop his melta charge and gun the jump pack again. You would throw a THunder Hammer at a tank if it was passing 30yards away, and you needed to intercept it. You would use a Rhino as a Battering Ram, infact everything in the 40K universe is expendable to protect the Imperium. Everything is very formulaic, the most outlandish Space Marine tactics got was when Lysander said "OMG, i totally forgot about that Vortex grenade, look i'll be back in 5 minutes okay...just keep these Titans tied up till i get back, m'kay". Alpha Legion must not have had to try very hard to outwit their brethren who spent the last 10,000 years following the same tactical doctorine. It reminds me of Blackadder.......
1:56
Although you cannot simulate this in the rules of a Wargame, there is a singular lack of imagination of BL authors. Why is that? Is it a type cast thing? I played SPACE MARINE this week and i was a bit "meh" It was no where near brutal enough and a little repetitive. The Jump pack sections were good.
Firstly, the Astartes don't generally try to sacrifice themselves. They are too valuable for that, and so they try to keep themselves alive so as to better serve the Emperor.l
Secondly, Titans are on another scale altogether. You can't just jetpack onto the bridge and drop a melta-charge. Astartes might have the armour of a tank, but that doesn't mean that they can rip a battletank apart just using their gauntlets. As to the rest, they do have a tendency to smash up tanks, and I'm pretty sure in at least one book they have run through walls. I'm also fairly sure that they would use Rhinos as battering rams, they just prefer not to (hell, the Astral Knights used their Battle Barge as a battering ram against the World Engine).
It doesn't change the fact that what SM's do in the table-top (and sadly the video game, to an extent) do not actually represent their abilities. I understand this would be almost impossible, but there are some things (like throwing weapons, the bright as freaking day fact that hit and run tactics are better in every way than jumping into combat and staying there until Jesus happens to stroll by) are things most would assume Space Marines do already.
If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.
Well thats all well and good, for a standard military. Tyranids are not a standard Enemy, holding Terra facing the daemon hordes and Legions of your ex-brothers is not normal by any military standard so imposing our idea's of warfare on them doesn't work. That said there are more parallels between SF and SM, than SF and Stormtroopers because they hit and fade, hey are designed around Elite strike units, a surgical precision strike, best equipment, excellent training, physical excellence and a total dedication and professionalism.
Stormtroopers are just veterans with Hot Shot weapons, they are still Line Infantry like Marines or Airborne, just better than the average line infantry unit.
mwnciboo wrote:Well thats all well and good, for a standard military. Tyranids are not a standard Enemy, holding Terra facing the daemon hordes and Legions of your ex-brothers is not normal by any military standard so imposing our idea's of warfare on them doesn't work. That said there are more parallels between SF and SM, than SF and Stormtroopers because they hit and fade, hey are designed around Elite strike units, a surgical precision strike, best equipment, excellent training, physical excellence and a total dedication and professionalism.
Stormtroopers are just veterans with Hot Shot weapons, they are still Line Infantry like Marines or Airborne, just better than the average line infantry unit.
No, Stormtroopers are more than that. Stormtroopers are sent on special high risk missions against the enemy, like going behind enemy lines to sabotage their equipment, or to act as the vanguard of an assault to soften them up.
Or something like that anyway.
Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field, are equipped with high-grade Carapace armour with more powerful lasguns that require a back-pack power source. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?
I said, they have their own little category. They aren't the same thing as the Storm Troopers, not too good at stealth, and prefer to take the enemy head on and use shock-and-awe tactics to crush stiff opposition as quickly as possible. They're also not line-troopers like the Guard, their tactics are different and their numbers too small.
iproxtaco wrote:I said, they have their own little category. They aren't the same thing as the Storm Troopers, not too good at stealth, and prefer to take the enemy head on and use shock-and-awe tactics to crush stiff opposition as quickly as possible. They're also not line-troopers like the Guard, their tactics are different and their numbers too small.
Whoops, I didn't see that you mentioned Astartes. Ok, cool. I've been wondering what their overall purpose was.
The reason Space Marines don't do that in the background is because everything else in the setting is that powerful.
A Marine can punch through materials that make steel look like a joke. They can pulp the skull of a human casually, even when unarmoured. Marines can in fact charge through walls, if they are made of weak enough materials. 40k materials are generally not that weak.
I'm really not getting what your complaint is, to be honest.
Space Marines are a completely seperate force altogether. They're not directly under the Imperial Guard's control, though they'd be mad to go on a mission without infantry support. You have to request their aid, and if they want to they'll drop in. They are like shock troops in their tactics, breaking sieges and leading charges. Stormtroopers are most like SF.
Special Forces are not what you seem to think they are.
Not every Special Forces unit worldwide behaves the same as another unit. Spetsnaz trains their operators differently than the US Navy SEALs who train theirs differently than the Chinese Special Forces who train theirs differently than the South Koreans do who train theirs differently than the North Koreans who train theirs differently than Israel trains theirs.
Point is there's no such thing as "generic Special Forces" because "Special Forces" is such a broad category that you'd have to be a madman to assume the objective they train their operators toward is the same.
There are lots of "special forces" depending on where you look. Storm troopers of varied stripes, GRenadiers, various specialist regiments (like Drop troopers, jungle fighters, infiltrators, close assautl specialists, Siege regiments). The AdMech Skitarii and various other organizations are specialists (at least for the AdMech but they are allied troops). The Sisters of Battle are "specialists" after a fashion as well. Alot of it depends on ohw you define "special"- I imagine the elite forces/special forces in a given planet's PDF aren't neccesarily the elite in the IG (high end maybe, but it depends on how they're used. Maybe the PDF special force troops get made into Regimental storm troopers/Grenadiers.)
Everyone in this thread is focusing too much on his usage of "special forces" and not on his question, which is "Why don't Space Marines do all of these sooper kewl things guise".
Forget marines, use a cruise missile instead?
Seriously, at the end of the day marines are just flesh and bone. Sure, powerarmour helps but they definately aren't strong enough to rip tanks appart with their hands or foolish enough to throw their nigh irreplacable thunderhammers at a tank when a simply krakmissile will do just as much damage for a much lower price.
Marines are a massive investment of time and resources (years to train and engineer, a generation to even find reqcruits who MIGHT fit the profile, given equipment and weapons that are costly and hard to replace, and is conditioned/indoctrinated to regard himself as being a godlike, superhuman and highly valuable commodity.) Hunter Killer missiles, even with ADMech/Munitorum BS, i bound to be far cheaper.
And if for some reason you need to drive that sword into the target at high speeds, you can attach a rocket motor and a guidance system to it. God knows they probably have something like that, given how some missiles and torpedoes burrow into starships (EG drills)
Edit: More to the point, AStartes are a niche force. They're meant to be rapid response, rapid strike. They're psychological and terror weapons. They're meant to fight the enemy in close quarters on the ground, on starships. They're meant ot be semi-autonomous so they can deploy without getting caught up in the bureacracy of the Munitorum. They aren't supposed to be able to do everything. They're overkill for garrison forces (Despite being used as that occasioanlly) and not numerous enough to hold territory they take (That's what other forces, eG the Guard, are for.)
McNinja wrote:If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.
I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.
Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans? Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin. Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd loose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.
Lynata wrote:I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.
And these humans are superhuman as well. Harker could break the neck of a Ravenor with his biceps. Games Workshop blatantly has cases of Charles Atlas Supower going on.
Also, have you seen how scrawny Chaos Cultists are? They are apparently on par with Gretchin, who alone pose little threat for anything human-sized.
Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans? Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin. Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd loose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.
Straken is a bionic man. Using him as an example is pretty faulty.
Space Marines are superhuman, in physical might and reaction-time. They can break through ceramite and pulp human skulls with their bare hands.
Space Marines have to be superhuman in the universe they live in. Just being "better" wouldn't cut it in a Galaxy of Daemons, monstrous aliens, physics, etc.. It indeed takes a superhuman to go 1 on 1 with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and live to tell the tale.
Any human can receive bionics, though. But Straken - who has S6 (!!!) - isn't the only one approaching or even being superior to Astartes strength. There's also characters like Harker who reach S4 without any bionics simply because they're very, very strong. Like a Space Marine. The latter's advantage is simply that they can be somewhat reliably "made" this way within a couple years instead of decades, and that superior strength isn't the only bonus they receive.
Astartes are superhuman alright. But they're not "superman". That's what I was trying to express - that the gap is certainly remarkable (especially when adding all the differences together), but nowhere as wide as many seem to believe. Don't let your perception be clouded by the "Movie Marines" that certain licensed products propagate. Even lasguns can kill Astartes.
Harriticus wrote:Just being "better" wouldn't cut it in a Galaxy of Daemons, monstrous aliens, physics, etc.. It indeed takes a superhuman to go 1 on 1 with a Tyranid Hive Tyrant and live to tell the tale.
Why would it not "cut it"? All that matters is that they're able to project a much bigger amount of "force" on a much smaller area than any other Imperial organization. The Emperor didn't make Space Marines to be superior to daemons, monstrous aliens, etc - he simply made the best he could do. Doesn't mean that the Space Marines don't have any limitations, and indeed, personally, I would consider it somewhat "over the top" to go 1 on 1 with a Hive Tyrant. Even though it wasn't just Astartes that managed to kill one this way, btw.
Lynata wrote:Any human can receive bionics, though. But Straken - who has S6 (!!!) - isn't the only one approaching or even being superior to Astartes strength. There's also characters like Harker who reach S4 without any bionics simply because they're very, very strong. Like a Space Marine. The latter's advantage is simply that they can be somewhat reliably "made" this way within a couple years instead of decades, and that superior strength isn't the only bonus they receive.
Straken doesn't just have bionics, he's a frickin' Terminator. Harker is S4, yes. And his strength is superhuman. Harker is also IIRC unique in that regard, him and Yarrick, Yarrick being even tougher than a Marine.
This is the same setting where an unmodified human Inquisitor can deflect enemy fire using a sword, as seen in Inquisitor, and multiple times in Eisenhorn.
Astartes are superhuman alright. But they're not "superman". That's what I was trying to express - that the gap is certainly remarkable (especially when adding all the differences together), but nowhere as wide as many seem to believe. Don't let your perception be clouded by the "Movie Marines" that certain licensed products propagate. Even lasguns can kill Astartes.
The difference between the very peak of human and "Superman" is so incredibly massive that I'd like to believe that no one with knowledge of the character would knowingly compare the two. I don't think there are people that claim Marines can move planets out of orbit physically and fly many times faster than the speed of light.
I will ask this: What do you base your perception of Space Marines on? What leads you to believe Black Library exagerrates to a great degree?
McNinja wrote:If S3 is the strength of an average human, and S4 is the strength of a Space Marine, then the divide between them is massive, like a normal human benching 185 lbs, then a Space Marines benching 700 lbs. A model with S5 or higher would have so much muscle that they would look like the hulk.
I see this suggestion a lot, yet everyone seems to forget that there are - gasp - other humans who go into S4 as well. Or even above. Perhaps the difference isn't all that massive after all? Cultists only have S2, yet I don't think that this means they'd have trouble lifting a flower pot.
This is, in my opinion, part of the problem of fluff justifications on a scale of 1-10.
"Weapon Skill 3" can be anything from a Guardsman who's served in a dozen campaigns but never really had to fight hand to hand...to an Eldar Guardian who is hundreds of years old but on their first real "tour of duty" as a Guardian.
Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans?
You seem to forget that Achilles had a weakness.
There's a reason the term "demigod" exists. It's someone who is possessed of powers beyond mere mortals, yet still is fallible like those mortals.
The Astartes are not immortal. They do die. The difference between them and a Guardsman is the amount of people they send screaming into oblivion preceding them before they die.
Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin.
Do you remember exactly what that instance was?
Straken "lying in a quagmire of toxic sludge" waited for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root(page 56 of Planetstrike. "Catachan Bites Back").
This isn't a case of Straken deciding to suddenly go and strangle a Chaos Lord with a root from a willow tree. This is Straken making a planned strike, waiting for the lord to remove his helmet and then strangling him with a poisoned root.
Which is echoed in their modus operandi. They don't like to engage in head-on warfare with larger armies because they know they'd lose (there are rare exceptions to this, but I think a siege warfare Chapter would generally only deploy together with other forces to avoid getting grind up). They strike hard and they strike fast at the heart of the enemy, always hoping that they can cut off the snake's head before they get overwhelmed.
The "siege warfare" Chapters such as the Star Phantoms and Imperial Fists generally operate as shock troops during counter-siege operations, and will kinda/sorta take over 'strategic command' supervising defensive measures during operations where they are being besieged.
Another tier of existence doesn't mean another world, and if Straken managed to strangle a CSM Lord with a fething root then I submit that maaaybe Marines are generally "just better", but still have to look out for their skin.
Do you remember exactly what that instance was?
Straken "lying in a quagmire of toxic sludge" waited for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root(page 56 of Planetstrike. "Catachan Bites Back").
This isn't a case of Straken deciding to suddenly go and strangle a Chaos Lord with a root from a willow tree. This is Straken making a planned strike, waiting for the lord to remove his helmet and then strangling him with a poisoned root.
It also helps that Straken is 100% pure man-sauce.
My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy but with all the organs implanted and decades of training and fanatic indocrination, the Space Marines are used in missions that no one else can be assigned and have a realistic chance of success.
They would tailor their tactics and gear for the specific mission and then pursue it with all the zeal of a religious warrior, never stopping for rest or respite until it succeeds or they are dead, whether its as a shock force or a commando op, or even a pitched defense, the Astartes are willing able and ready to do any of these tasks.
A force able to operate for days..weeks or even months without sleep, that is immune to most battlefield conditions (cold/heat) and compleatly dependable puts them in a very select form of Special Forces, such as we in the RL cannot even grasp.
Basicaly when nothing else will do they call the Space marines.
(note: this in no way justifies the countless tabletops full of marine players and their over represented armies, just the way i have always thought of the Astartes from way back in the days of Rogue Trader. )
Void__Dragon wrote:I will ask this: What do you base your perception of Space Marines on? What leads you to believe Black Library exagerrates to a great degree?
Studio material, i.e. the fluff in GW's own books and to some extent* the rules - around which the fluff was written. Not just the 40kTT, but also the Inquisitor RPG, etc. The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).
Black Library on the other hand exaggerates in favour of whoever is the hero of the story, regardless of whether it's a Marine or an Imperial Guard soldier - the inconsistencies resulting out of this approach are fairly obvious. For example, just because Gaunt's Ghosts manage to frag Chaos Marines by the dozens, I don't believe the latter would be that weak. Similarly, however, I also don't think Astartes are that uber just because their novels are almost always written in "300"-style. I could point at "Daemonblood" now and proclaim that every Sororitas Seraphim should be able to go 1 on 1 with a Marine Sergeant and win in close combat, but I won't, because I know that sometimes a story just wants to tell a cool story.
Just my interpretation of the available material, of course. Due to the nature of how the franchise is run, none of us can be "wrong" here, since every source is just as good (or not) as another. Still, I think a too-exaggerated description of the Marines would make for a less consistent setting, as you're simply approaching a point where you have to ask yourself why the Imperium just doesn't wipe everyone's butt with these demigods of war. Let's say I just prefer them to be "much better", but not invincible. May be just a general preference I have, though. I find fallible characters to be much more interesting, regardless of franchise.
*: When something has a better stat, I generally assume it is superior than whatever it is compared to. Such as "bolters > lasguns".
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:They would tailor their tactics and gear for the specific mission and then pursue it with all the zeal of a religious warrior, never stopping for rest or respite until it succeeds or they are dead, whether its as a shock force or a commando op, or even a pitched defense, the Astartes are willing able and ready to do any of these tasks. A force able to operate for days..weeks or even months without sleep, that is immune to most battlefield conditions (cold/heat) and compleatly dependable puts them in a very select form of Special Forces, such as we in the RL cannot even grasp.
This is a fairly important thing as well. Whenever I see discussions about what makes the Marines better, the vast majority of people points out how resilient and strong they are. But these things are just two of the many advantages they have, and I think the other bonuses, whilst often neglected (because they're "not as cool" as the ability to crush a man's head with one hand) are just as if not more vital as to what gives them an edge.
Similar to Marine armour. No, it's not the protective value that makes it stand out. Other models of power armour are just as good in that regard. It's the dozens of highly useful gadgets that may allow them to continue even further.
In my interpretation, Space Marines aren't superior because they're a hundred times stronger and tougher, but because they're somewhat (Harker-level) better in every regard. The true Human v2.0, so to say.
Lynata wrote:Studio material, i.e. the fluff in GW's own books and to some extent* the rules - around which the fluff was written. Not just the 40kTT, but also the Inquisitor RPG, etc. The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).
I still maintain my right to disagree on what constitutes "small-arms fire." Though actually, weren't Marines in 2e weaker than the Marines currently on the TT? From what I hear anyway.
I'm not seeing what makes you think Marines are not as strong in the codices as they are in BL though, honestly. I can recall a lot of crazy Marine feats. Like leveling a chapel (Think about how big 40k chapels are) with a single hit from a Thunder Hammer. Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.
Marines are not the biggest and baddest things in the fluff, that's true, but they're still powerful to an extent that could perhaps be described as demigodlike.
Black Library on the other hand exaggerates in favour of whoever is the hero of the story, regardless of whether it's a Marine or an Imperial Guard soldier - the inconsistencies resulting out of this approach are fairly obvious. For example, just because Gaunt's Ghosts manage to frag Chaos Marines by the dozens, I don't believe the latter would be that weak. Similarly, however, I also don't think Astartes are that uber just because their novels are almost always written in "300"-style. I could point at "Daemonblood" now and proclaim that every Sororitas Seraphim should be able to go 1 on 1 with a Marine Sergeant and win in close combat, but I won't, because I know that sometimes a story just wants to tell a cool story.
Are you under the impression the codices don't do this? The Grey Knights codex has a grand total of one loss inside it. I can't recall any signifigant Space Wolf losses (The only one that comes to mind is when some Wolf makes a pass at a woman and notices she isn't human, and proceeds to never be seen again), it is similar for the Blood Angels and vanilla Marines codex. Codices arguably even more than BL emphasize the raw awesomeness of the faction, generally. I can't comment on Gaunt's Ghosts, haven't read. Though I've heard Gaunt does stupid gak like do backflips while dual-wielding bolt pistols. That may of been a joke from my friend. I hope it was.
Just my interpretation of the available material, of course. Due to the nature of how the franchise is run, none of us can be "wrong" here, since every source is just as good (or not) as another. Still, I think a too-exaggerated description of the Marines would make for a less consistent setting, as you're simply approaching a point where you have to ask yourself why the Imperium just doesn't wipe everyone's butt with these demigods of war. Let's say I just prefer them to be "much better", but not invincible. May be just a general preference I have, though. I find fallible characters to be much more interesting, regardless of franchise.
*: When something has a better stat, I generally assume it is superior than whatever it is compared to. Such as "bolters > lasguns".
Why would it be a less consistent setting? The Space Marines are demigods of war. But that's not always enough. There are bigger Tyranids than Marines, and much more Tyranids overall. Necrons have been capable of taking down Marines, being similar physically with much better technology, and they have units like Wraiths, Lords, Pariahs, etc that are better than Marines up close. Orks range from "Overall inferior to a Marine but still nothing to laugh at" to "Can rip a Marine's power armoured spine out from his chest." And IIRC the Eldar are even better than Marines at felling numerous enemies while taking minimal casualties, their entire style of war is based on it.
40k is a pretty absurd setting. A Space Marine wielding a chainsword, considering its physical properties, would be able to cut through damn near anything IRL, yet power armour can effectively resist them.
Lynata wrote:
Here's a heretical thought: What if Space Marines maybe aren't the demigod superheroes that the novels and computer games generally portray them as, but rather simply - within limits - better trained, better equipped, more experienced and more resilient than humans?
That contradicts codex fluff as well, so...not so much, no.
Space Marines don't fear a stand-up fight, it's simply that numbers can eventually beat anything. The Imperial Guard could take down Titans using nothing but Guardsmen armed with combat knives; they'd eventually pull it off, but they'd lose, likely, hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A hundred Astartes could square off against ten thousand Guardsmen, and while the Guardsmen would ultimately win the fight, they'd do so with horrific losses.
It's a horribly trite and horribly disrespectful - and not entirely accurate - comparison, but look at the Battle of Mogadishu; 100 American special forces with limited aerial support against half the city of Mogadishu. The Americans maintained a kill-to-death ratio of somewhere around 1:100, but still "lost" simply because enough numbers will make any problem go away eventually.
The Space Marines avoid doing the battles of attrition that the Guard does because that's not their job, and because they can be employed to do things the Guard can't do. They were engineered for it, and they're not just slightly better.
Ah, but those of you saying use a missile are missing the point. A missile cannot fight hand to hand, or fire a bolter, or charge through a wall. Marines can do all of those things and also with Jump packs etc can do much more. But BL fluff has them doing very dull things like walking down corridors etc. If you had power armour and you had super human stength and can climb etc, you wouldn't bother going through doorways or corridors. You would go through a floor, window (make you own window) or make your own door. Corridors are natural killing zones as are Stairwells, that is why explosive entry techniques are popular, to take the Enemy down by an unexpected entry point.
The SF / SM / stormtrooper point aside, Astartes are no where near aggressive enough. If you could run at 30mph weight a 1000kg, heft a 20mm personal weapon on full auto and shrug off small arms fire and bench press a Family car for giggles, you certainly wouldn't be shy in engaging the enemy.
@void Dragon, completely agree. A chainsword is crap at cutting in the 40k Universe, however mount it on a Power Fist and suddenly it becomes a chain fist deliberately designed for cutting through bulkheads....Wtf.
Void__Dragon wrote:Though actually, weren't Marines in 2e weaker than the Marines currently on the TT? From what I hear anyway.
They were in Rogue Trader, back when they were still T3 and their enhancements were not as "extensive" as in 2E and later (contrary to popular belief, however, they were never a bunch of undisciplined prisoners like the Terran Marines from StarCraft - forced recruitment of hive gangs did happen in addition to volunteers from feral worlds, but psycho-indoctrination was already referenced back then).
Void__Dragon wrote:I can recall a lot of crazy Marine feats. Like leveling a chapel (Think about how big 40k chapels are) with a single hit from a Thunder Hammer.
That doesn't sound too far off, actually. Chapels are held together by pillars, knock one apart (which I see a TH being absolutely capable of, even if it has a diameter of a full meter) and the whole structure may come down. Just needs to be the right one.
Void__Dragon wrote:Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.
Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.
As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.
Void__Dragon wrote:Are you under the impression the codices don't do this?
Not at all! There's lots of crazy stuff in the codices as well - and there's lots of "normal" stuff in BL novels, too. I'm just under the impression that, overall, studio material is way more consistent and ... "balanced", in a narrative way of things. Let's just say I prefer Rogal Dorn's "1 Marine is worth 10 soldiers" line instead of the more excessive feats of heroism we may get to see. That's just my interpretation and personal preference, mind you - I'm sure we all pick and choose a little based on what we like more (independent of franchise, i.e. preference for "heroic", "epic", "gritty" stories etc).
Void__Dragon wrote:Terminators apparently can be used for Titan hunting. They can survive a Psyflame Bomb that destroys a massive Librarium, the biggest outside of Sol.
Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.
As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.
Have you ever heard of Titan Hammer Squads? Lysander pioneered this tactic where he and about 30 Other terminators with TH would assault Titans using a Vortex Grenade as well.
Space Marines aren't just about strength, and that only really plays a role in close combat (and in close combat with mono blades chainswrods and power weapons, I suspect speed as much i fnot more than strength plays a role.) They have superhuman reflexes, reaction times, and can observe and process information (and think) at rates far beyond a normal person. They have vastly more knowledge and information crammed into their brain they can draw on. They are designed tot ake massive amounts of abuse and keep functioning (physical durability, pain resistance, limited selfrepair and self healing.) They have extraordinary sensory capabilities (in all regards) as well as the ability to assimilate information from other sources (a TREMENDOUS boon that). They're designed to be able to operate away from a supply line (although they function best in such.. power armor does have solar cells.. makes me wonder why they never use a SM-sized lasweapon when away from supply lines....). They can run at great speeds and endure that for tremendous durations. And on and on and on. Space Marines aren't supposed to be the strongest (although Marine strength, like other abilities, can vary somewhat from the baseline just sa it does with normal people) but they're supposed to be alla round better in most regards because of those augmentations, and those abilities comprise far more than just strength (Combat servitors and OGryn at least have them outdone in the strength department, and some unmodified Guard humans of the Bragg variety must come close in physical size/strength outside of the armor.)
As far as augmetics vs Marines go... how exactly are people quantifying the stats? I don't quite follow how one reads the statas and then derives a comparsion. Do stats scale linearly, or exponetnially or what? how is the baseline derived? Is there not a problem of a great deal of abstraction? For example, does the stat represent the kind of feats performed (which can be quite diverse.) in time as well as magnitude? \
Example: STraken has a super duper augmetic, which apparently makes him nsaty in combat. What does that really mean, insofar as strength. MEtal is generally harder than flesh, even space Marine flesh, so that is an advantage. I gather he can possibly generate more short term force or pressure (EG make a really good punch or crush a skull) with the augmetic, which would give him significant combat skill. That doesn't mean he can lift huge weights over his head (he still has a normal human arm, and a normal human body and skeleton that his super arm is anchored too.. I suspect it would get ripped out at the roots if he tried some feats a Space Marine did.) STrength can involve not just lifting, pushing, etc but also how long one can endure it, tolerance of the body to such strains, and other various factors in which a Marine could beat STraken at (in other words, STraken might excel in one particular strength category compared to an Astartes, but it doesnt make him all around better insofar as strength goes.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:
The 2E Angels of Death Codex, for example, contained a pretty informative page of text about the protective values of power armour and what can still wound an Astartes. I liked that, as (after some calculating) I found out it fits well into the rules of the game as well as the history of its setting (yes, there actually are a few incidents where the Marines failed to accomplish their goal, and this is the explanation for it).
You mean stuff like this?
Page 8 wrote:
The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helsp to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium.
On its own a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs., and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move wihile wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour.
..
In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.
It helps some but there's some pretty hefty qualifiers to it, and it just means that 40K body armor pretty much obeys some of the same rules they do IRL, which is hardly surprising. Except for the mass lightening component, which I find a bit silly (does this mean all power armor makes Marines jump troops or something?) And of course they give a mass figure which is quite a bit less than FFG does, nevermind what authors say.
Of course, using 2nd edition was the point in time at which the Imperium was still ludicrously advanced in a technical sense even t the IG level. 70 kph Russes with high tech guns, sensors, computer systems, etc. Not to mention standard gear including all sorts of neat stuff like infrared/NVG, etc. Hell I'm pretty sure you could still even use Predators and Rhinos along side the other stuff (you could in Epic, anyhow. Now that had some insane capabilities tied to it..)
Connor MacLeod wrote:how exactly are people quantifying the stats? I don't quite follow how one reads the statas and then derives a comparsion. Do stats scale linearly, or exponetnially or what? how is the baseline derived? Is there not a problem of a great deal of abstraction?
I think it's very much a matter of gauging, at least for me. In 40k, humans can go from S2 (Cultists) to S3 (norm) to S4 (Harker, Bragg), so I think the differences are clearly notable, yet not worlds apart. S5-Ogryns are, in the end, only a "naturally" evolved human mutation as well. Obviously, with the limited level of detail of the TT ruleset, there's lots of abstraction going on, yet when the rules don't create such a massive gap, I just don't know why it needs to be introduced by some novel or RPG. Of course I realize why it was done, but just like Jes Goodwin jokingly criticized that they seem to "get progressively bigger with every book", I am criticizing that they seem to "get progressively more super with every book".
That said, I like your above assessment about the Astartes being all about the combination. You make a very good point regarding Harker, too - I didn't consider the effects of the rest of his body being unaugmented. That said, it was still enough to root-strangle that CSM Lord, for which he'd have needed both hands... I think we can just agree on him being very badass and disregard the details. I admit he wasn't a good example.
Connor MacLeod wrote:You mean stuff like this?
That's exactly it.
I don't think 2E was that far apart from what we have now - the biggest jump the setting has made was from Rogue Trader to 2E, and when I look at the Guard Codex it reads fairly low-tech (well, as low-tech as the current one anyways).
As for as the mass lightening component ... well, things like Suspensors are still in use, which have the same effect. I admit I'm not really sure what to think of it, but it could be a neat explanation for the random "why don't Space Marines fall through the floor" question that pops up again and again.
Connor MacLeod wrote:And of course they give a mass figure which is quite a bit less than FFG does, nevermind what authors say.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." - Andy Hoare
The "gravitic energy dampener" in Connor's Codex quote. I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned anywhere else other than in C: Angels of Death. Of all GW books, this one had the most extensive description for power armour I've ever seen - most Codices and rulebooks leave it fairly open and only deal with the basics in a few sentences, if at all (the 5E Marine Codex virtually tells you nothing!).
Lynata wrote:I think it's very much a matter of gauging, at least for me. In 40k, humans can go from S2 (Cultists) to S3 (norm) to S4 (Harker, Bragg), so I think the differences are clearly notable, yet not worlds apart. S5-Ogryns are, in the end, only a "naturally" evolved human mutation as well. Obviously, with the limited level of detail of the TT ruleset, there's lots of abstraction going on, yet when the rules don't create such a massive gap, I just don't know why it needs to be introduced by some novel or RPG. Of course I realize why it was done, but just like Jes Goodwin jokingly criticized that they seem to "get progressively bigger with every book", I am criticizing that they seem to "get progressively more super with every book".
I tend to follow the guidelines set down by BFG - basically they once provided variables that coudl be used to "calc" the stats, but they put a ton of disclaimers and qualifiers on that because it was both highly relative and very abrstracted.
Another good joke I've heard is that in the FFGRPG stuff, it's quite possible (By game mechanics) for Space Marines to die falling down the stairs.
That said, I like your above assessment about the Astartes being all about the combination. You make a very good point regarding Harker, too - I didn't consider the effects of the rest of his body being unaugmented. That said, it was still enough to root-strangle that CSM Lord, for which he'd have needed both hands... I think we can just agree on him being very badass and disregard the details. I admit he wasn't a good example.
Thanks! I think its natural to focus on strength as matterin because Marines are portrayed so often as close combat fighters, even in the novels. They can be strong, and that matters, but there are always plenty of stronger things in universe than they are. Orks can be pretty damn strong, as can Tyranids, for example. I also suspect their power armor probably has variable strength "settings" depending on power usage, strain on the frame, and so on (they might boost strength temporarily to rip doors off, but that is something that wouldn't neccesarily translate into increased fighting capability.)
I don't think 2E was that far apart from what we have now - the biggest jump the setting has made was from Rogue Trader to 2E, and when I look at the Guard Codex it reads fairly low-tech (well, as low-tech as the current one anyways).
Rogue Trader was both more tongue in cheek than second edition. But 2nd edition (and thereabouts) was vastly different. For example, look at the response times given for the Guard in the 2nd edition IG Codex (30-120 days on average IIRC, which included conscripting, training and transporting troops as I recall.) and compare it with how things are handled now. Or the Chimeras running on nuclear reactors. Another example is how certain technologies were either taken out of Guard inventories, or portrayed as too high tech for the guard (or being high tech made them rarer. This last bit is especially proiminent in all the forge World IG fluff.) I blame part of that on the artwork, and part of tha ton the general emphasis on the "dark gritty gloom and doom" 'seriousness' that prevailed in 3rd and 4th edition.
As for as the mass lightening component ... well, things like Suspensors are still in use, which have the same effect. I admit I'm not really sure what to think of it, but it could be a neat explanation for the random "why don't Space Marines fall through the floor" question that pops up again and again.
calling it "mass lightening" was mainly a joke, because I figured it probably was a suspensor (yet more tech that becomes progressively "lost" in later editions..) because the fluff is pretty consistent in describing antigrav tech working that way. Except for the Eye of Terror novel, which actually did describe antigravity "mass reducing" fields.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." - Andy Hoare
Just pick what you like best, I guess.
As much as I liked the White Scars stuff he's produced I still blame Andy Hoare for inflicting literal age of sail space combat and the Arcadius on us, so he doesn't get a say. BEsides my favorite authors to quote would be Gav Thorpe or Andy Chambers or Bill King
Lynata wrote:They were in Rogue Trader, back when they were still T3 and their enhancements were not as "extensive" as in 2E and later (contrary to popular belief, however, they were never a bunch of undisciplined prisoners like the Terran Marines from StarCraft - forced recruitment of hive gangs did happen in addition to volunteers from feral worlds, but psycho-indoctrination was already referenced back then).
I see.
That doesn't sound too far off, actually. Chapels are held together by pillars, knock one apart (which I see a TH being absolutely capable of, even if it has a diameter of a full meter) and the whole structure may come down. Just needs to be the right one.
I doubt a single meter thick pillar toppling over would be capable of destroying the entire cathedral, considering the sheer size of them.
Terminators for Titan hunting = wat. If you mean that they could enter the Titan and fight inside, sure, you can do that with normal power armour too, though. They'd never survive a direct confrontation though.
"Boarding Tyranid-infested space hulks,
launching teleport attacks, Titan assaults and combat actions
in extremely hostile environments, such as deep space or
volcanic marshland; these are the missions undertaken by
Space Marine Terminators."
I generally assume an "assault" on a Titan would require one to assault the Titan, rather than the people piloting it. Granted it's fairly vague, but not important.
As for a Psyflame bomb, I've never read about that (and sadly Lexicanum doesn't know it either so I'm out of references), but it sounds reasonable that a flame weapon does more damage to a huge pile of books than to a person enclosed in temparature-regulated armour originally invented for reactor maintenance duty.
"Slowly but surely, undeteded by the Space Marines who
scoured the fire-blackened rubble for any trace of the foe,
arcane energies began to build. By the time the last of the
Imperial Guard regiments had taken position, Ahriman's trap
was fully-charged and burst into terrifying life. The planet
rocked on its axis as the othervvorldly explosion sent pink fire
crackling through the catacombs. Whole sedions of the
labyrinthine archives collapsed under the force of the blast,
and datastacks that had stood inviolate for millennia shifted
and toppled. Caught full in the torrents of twisting
Warpflame, the Guardsmen were incinerated to a man.
Proteded by their superior armour, the Invaders fared better,
though many were crushed by falling blocks of masonry or
lost to the bottomless fissures that tore open the Librarium's
floors. Yet the danger had only begun. As Ahriman had
planned, the barriers between the mortal world and the
Realm of Chaos had been weakened by the sorcerous
explosion. Even as the fires guttered and died, the walls of
reality were torn asunder and Daemons burst through into
the Librarium's great hall."
The Librarium was destroyed, crumbling when put up against the force of the blast, and apparently the planet "rocked on its axis".
Not at all! There's lots of crazy stuff in the codices as well - and there's lots of "normal" stuff in BL novels, too. I'm just under the impression that, overall, studio material is way more consistent and ... "balanced", in a narrative way of things. Let's just say I prefer Rogal Dorn's "1 Marine is worth 10 soldiers" line instead of the more excessive feats of heroism we may get to see. That's just my interpretation and personal preference, mind you - I'm sure we all pick and choose a little based on what we like more (independent of franchise, i.e. preference for "heroic", "epic", "gritty" stories etc).
Eh. Maybe it's because I haven't read enough Black Library, but I'm not seeing anything truly signifigant that suggests BL is any more inconsistent than the codices.
I personally think that one Marine being the equal of ten soldiers is, well, hyperbole. A throwaway statement not meant to be considered fact. Not when you have 100 or less Marines defending against legions of Necrons or Tyranids that vastly outnumber them, the latter and definitely the former being superior to guardsmen. And then there is of course Space Marines in Commorragh handing the Dark Eldar their asses. Their feats suggest they are worth far more than 10 guardsmen. Since ten guardsmen would seriously struggle to even shoot a single Dark Eldar, for example (In the fluff Dark Eldar can do gak like dodge las-fire after it is fired and kick active grenades back at the person who threw it).
Connor MacLeod wrote:I tend to follow the guidelines set down by BFG - basically they once provided variables that coudl be used to "calc" the stats, but they put a ton of disclaimers and qualifiers on that because it was both highly relative and very abrstracted.
Huh, do you remember where that was? In spite of the abstract nature of the TT, it sounds like a potentially interesting read. Especially given that I wanted to write some custom starship fluff at some point in time, and maybe that article could me help better understand how the background correllates to the system.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Another good joke I've heard is that in the FFGRPG stuff, it's quite possible (By game mechanics) for Space Marines to die falling down the stairs.
Falling hurts Marines in that system more than a battle with a Greater Daemon. I also recall the most efficient way to kill a Hive Tyrant being to punch it 50 or so meters into the air so that it gets killed by falling damage.
I'm probably weird in that I like playing FFG's RPG, yet can find a load of stuff to criticize on it - ranging from deviations from the source material to things that just don't add up even in their own rules. Perhaps it's just nitpicking because I see all that potential, but certain things just look like huge ugly stains on an otherwise clean cloth to me.
Connor MacLeod wrote:I also suspect their power armor probably has variable strength "settings" depending on power usage, strain on the frame, and so on (they might boost strength temporarily to rip doors off, but that is something that wouldn't neccesarily translate into increased fighting capability.)
The old Inquisitor RPG mentioned a strength increase of 1/5 of the user's original strength, whereas FFG's RPG applies a flat bonus. Just two potential sources for inspiration, of course - I do like your proposition regarding situational boosts, and I think I even read this in at least one novel once... Hmm, might be a cool houserule for the roleplaying game.
Connor MacLeod wrote:For example, look at the response times given for the Guard in the 2nd edition IG Codex (30-120 days on average IIRC, which included conscripting, training and transporting troops as I recall.) and compare it with how things are handled now.
I don't remember any retcon in that regard - looking at the 5E Guard Codex, it only mentions that the regiment will be travelling for "many weeks" - which fits perfectly into the 30-120 day timeframe.
Connor MacLeod wrote:I figured it probably was a suspensor (yet more tech that becomes progressively "lost" in later editions..)
Suspensors were still around in the last TT Deathwatch Killteam rules (2003?) - I'd say just wait until they release new ones, I wouldn't at all wonder if they were still there.
Connor MacLeod wrote:As much as I liked the White Scars stuff he's produced I still blame Andy Hoare for inflicting literal age of sail space combat and the Arcadius on us, so he doesn't get a say. BEsides my favorite authors to quote would be Gav Thorpe or Andy Chambers or Bill King
Hmm, I don't have anything from Andy Chambers and I do not know Bill King, but here's one from Gav Thorpe that a fellow Dakkanaut recently threw at me, causing me to change my stance regarding the question of canonicity:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
And I kind of like age of sail space combat. More majestic this way!
Void__Dragon wrote:I doubt a single meter thick pillar toppling over would be capable of destroying the entire cathedral, considering the sheer size of them.
The size could very well only increase the chance of it coming down to your head. It all depends on how exactly it was constructed, which material was used and how well it was maintained in the millennia since its erection.
Void__Dragon wrote:I generally assume an "assault" on a Titan would require one to assault the Titan, rather than the people piloting it. Granted it's fairly vague, but not important.
Not necessarily the people. The machinery within. It's as if the attackers would become a little "infection" for the Titan that, over time, renders its "organs" damaged. It's not only been done by Terminators, but I reckon that - just like boarding Space Hulks - Terminators will have a big advantage here.
I just don't see it working otherwise, sorry. The ranged weapons that a Terminator can mount are unable to inflict sufficient damage and melee ... well, the Titan moves one step and suddenly that squad is out of range by 100 meters? In addition to that, in my world not even a Terminator will be able to survive a direct hit from a Titan weapon. It just seems ... weird to have infantry survive anti-starship guns.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Librarium was destroyed, crumbling when put up against the force of the blast, and apparently the planet "rocked on its axis".
So it wasn't some conventional bomb it was an earthquake and warp flames resulting out of a rift. Naturally anyone who isn't firmly rooted in the ground will be able to "compensate" for tremors which would raze buildings. The Guardsmen only didn't because they were caught in the fire.
Void__Dragon wrote:Eh. Maybe it's because I haven't read enough Black Library, but I'm not seeing anything truly signifigant that suggests BL is any more inconsistent than the codices.
In the end, it has to be solely because it is written by much, much more people - all of whom have their very own ideas and personal interpretations on how things are supposed to work, ranging from Marines having an average height of 9+ feet to backflipping Terminators to Tau having toes instead of hooves to flirting SoB.
As I've come to accept that the concept of canonicity is entirely absent from 40k, all of these interpretations and the source material itself are equally valid (and I do incorporate ideas from BL novels into my own custom fluff) - but it should not be surprising that the source material, written by much less people and paraphrasing or even copypasting entire sections from their older books time and time again, gives a much less "fluid" impression than the works of BL authors who have publicly admitted that they don't give a grox's ass over what someone else wrote.
Void__Dragon wrote:I personally think that one Marine being the equal of ten soldiers is, well, hyperbole. A throwaway statement not meant to be considered fact.
See, and I chose to think of the idea that Space Marines are the equal of a hundred or a thousand soldiers is hyperbole, because I've grown up with a different perception from the studio material that I've read. Exceptional face-offs in which some faction overcame a much bigger enemy army can, I presume, be found for anyone if you just keep on looking. Don't forget that Guardsmen can carry a melta or a plasma gun, too, and thusly can be just as dangerous in ranged combat. And we're not even talking heavy weapon teams yet. Under the right circumstances, a single Guardsman could kill a Marine, so I find the 1:10 formula a fitting compromise between both the high and the low extremes that would result out of further considerations such as terrain, surprise, morale, etc.
Hmm. Yeah, I've never come across the gravitic energy dampener, so I assume it's one of those things that probably just got abandoned along the way. As for why Space Marines don't fall through floors and stuff, I'd say it's because everything's built reinforced in the 41st millennium. You've got your heavy Space Marines, your heavy Mechanicus adepts, your heavy abhumans...building codes probably just eventually took those into account.
Lynata wrote:]Huh, do you remember where that was? In spite of the abstract nature of the TT, it sounds like a potentially interesting read. Especially given that I wanted to write some custom starship fluff at some point in time, and maybe that article could me help better understand how the background correllates to the system.
It came from Andy Chambers. As I recall it was from some old email list or group way back when. There's a link to it here
I'm probably weird in that I like playing FFG's RPG, yet can find a load of stuff to criticize on it - ranging from deviations from the source material to things that just don't add up even in their own rules. Perhaps it's just nitpicking because I see all that potential, but certain things just look like huge ugly stains on an otherwise clean cloth to me.
I actually like FFG for their fluff and their approach, it seems much more well thought out than the Codexes and such, which read far too much like propoganda. "The galaxy constantly at war!" and all that. The only race that has ever managed to thrive in a total war scenario are the Orks, and that is because they are engineered for it mentally and physically, they have a mobile, self-renewing ecosystem, and they use teeth as the basis for their economy.
The old Inquisitor RPG mentioned a strength increase of 1/5 of the user's original strength, whereas FFG's RPG applies a flat bonus. Just two potential sources for inspiration, of course - I do like your proposition regarding situational boosts, and I think I even read this in at least one novel once... Hmm, might be a cool houserule for the roleplaying game.
I was thinking of Savage Scars, which I am in the process of slowly reading. Sarik (The White Scar protagonist) had to tear the hatch off a damaged Rhino to get at the crew inside, and boosted power to his arms to provide the extra strength. Sufficed to say the suit didn't like that, and it was clearly a case where the armour required preparation and time to bolster strength.
I don't remember any retcon in that regard - looking at the 5E Guard Codex, it only mentions that the regiment will be travelling for "many weeks" - which fits perfectly into the 30-120 day timeframe.
Check pages 7-8 of the 5th edition IG codex and compare it to what they discuss on page 6 on the 2nd edition codex. In 2nd edition you have 30-120 days to organize a response from over a 10K LY radius of the troubled world, and that is considered a "close" response. Average time 75 days for all of that (including travel time to the planet.) In 5th edition, responses are handled thusly: Page 7 they describe that IG responses are handled at subsector and sector levels, with forces being raised locally from the surrounding star systems in the immediate vicinity - even worse this is done "haphazardly" (Eg little organization) they just raise them and throw them en-masse. This typically means now a few tens of LY (Sectors are 200 LY a side as per BFG, and subsectors are smaller formations within that. Average distance between worlds I've figured in a sector/subsector is 10-20 LY or so.). Page 8 they mention the PDFs are expected to be able to defend a world for "months, even years" before reinforcements arrive. They even mention Ryza in both codexes, and its changed from 10K LY (2nd) to 10 LY in 5th.
Personally I don't ascribe any greater emphasis on 5th edition than 2nd, as response time is dependent upon many variables (least of which being the warp) so they can be equally valid, but my point is that taking time and distance and organization (or lack thereof) into consideration between the codexes, the IG was more impressive in 2nd edition than presented in 5th, especially if you take both sources in isolation (which I wouldn't do, but some people do that.)
Edit: Oh yeah and there's those Forgeworld IA books. The response times in IA3 and 5 for the Imperium were not particularily impressive.. I've seen people like to throw those around (I think for Taros it took like a Year at least, and Vraks may have taken longer.)
Suspensors were still around in the last TT Deathwatch Killteam rules (2003?) - I'd say just wait until they release new ones, I wouldn't at all wonder if they were still there.
They're around if you look in enough sources - they aren't even rare depending on the author, but insofar as codexes and such go they seem to be rare if not nonexistent. Remember declining technology is more gritty and foreboding!
I fully envision that by 6th edition Ogryn and Servitors in hamster wheels will be the new means of propelling tanks and starships. And possibly running forge worlds.
Hmm, I don't have anything from Andy Chambers and I do not know Bill King, but here's one from Gav Thorpe that a fellow Dakkanaut recently threw at me, causing me to change my stance regarding the question of canonicity:
Andy Chambers wrote two short stories that appeared (one of which was a snippet in the Necron Codex as I recall) and both appear in Let the Galaxy Burn. They let him write one Necromunda novel (Survival Instinct, which was quite good) and he recently started writing for BL again about the Dark Eldar. Bill King wrote the Space Wolf novels, Gotrek and Felix in WH, and I believe he was involved in at least some of the 2nd edition codex writing (I recall him being shown/mentioned in the 2nd edition Space Wolf codex, at least....)
Re canon:
I just avoid canon entirely if I can help it, since canon tends to put things in a context of a religious debate, which it isn't. Also, canon can change over time, and not in good ways, and I've had some very bad experiences dealing with canon in other universes (EG Star Wars, although Halo "canon" is even worse.) On top of that all 40K sources sooner or later recycle the earlier fluff, so like it or not you have to deal with at least some old information as well as new at some point (EG Rogue Trader's RPG virtually recycled a huge chunk of Space Fleet fluff in their core rules, and 5th edition Space Marine codex recycles a bunch of earlier Space marine fluff, such as the bits about over-strength Codex companies during wartime.) Besides, its impossible to get everyone to agree on what is or isn't acceptable material -but I suspect you know that better than I do.
And I kind of like age of sail space combat. More majestic this way!
There's no winds in space so those masts are pretty pointless. Unless the winds of chaos somehow travel in between systems, which wouldn't surprise me.
Wow, we are quite off-topic here. Yep, i agree, SM are ridicolously nerfed in the game compared to lore. A space marine is fully capable of punching through a tank, ripping it up, walking in and killing everything inside with his bare hands to save ammo. I can imagine that a fist fight between a CSM and a SM would be very dangerous to be close to. (the csm might use you as a club!) yeah, them catachan S4 guys.... against a space marine they should look like kittens. Ogryns should be somwhat larger than SM, but game balance has gone to quite some lengths.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Take 10 well- trained Guardsmen in a fight against a Space marine. It would not be a fight. First, the guardsmen would set their power setting to maximum and pour their fire. The marine would stand still, taking only minor damage to the paint. Then he would raise his boltgun, and Pow! all guardsmen dead. sadly this is not what happens in the game :/ take a fist- only fight instead. The marine could easily, even if he needed to, avoid their blows. In return, he could crack skulls and break bones with the slightest effort. If you were a human in 40k, stay away from the marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though, balance is required so Guard players do not have to collect ridicolous amounts of models. it's fine as it is.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy
Too late.
Space Marines can be taken down by normal humans with any level of competent planning. Even killing one Astartes is far more damaging to a chapter than destroying an entire regiment is to the Guard.
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iproxtaco wrote:Yes, and probably easier.
No.
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BrotherHaraldus wrote:Take 10 well- trained Guardsmen in a fight against a Space marine. It would not be a fight. First, the guardsmen would set their power setting to maximum and pour their fire. The marine would stand still
And then die.
The marine's durability advantage turns to nothing if he is stationary.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:My take on Space marines role is they are as far above "special forces" as the Army is above the boy scouts, not to be a astartes fanboy
Too late.
Space Marines can be taken down by normal humans with any level of competent planning. Even killing one Astartes is far more damaging to a chapter than destroying an entire regiment is to the Guard.
As can literally anything else in the galaxy, as numerous Black Library books have shown us.
No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.
Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.
No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.
They're also genetically enhanced and given some of the best equipment available in the Imperium - much of it exclusive to them.
I don't think anyone's suggested they're infallible. Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though. And yes, that is in fact what you suggested with your "any level of competent planning," stuff. Marines are pretty tactically proficient themselves.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.
You're mistaking movie marines for actual fluff marines. Movie marines are a lie that space marine fanboys tell themselves to make themselves feel better.
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Seaward wrote:Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though.
No it's not. An ambush with mines, IEDs, booby traps, and heavy and special weapons will utterly devastate a Marine squad when competently performed. These are things the IG is known to use, the Uplifting Primer even has examples of basic traps IIRC.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Marines are described as incredibly proficient warriors where i read, that really can't be compared with Stormtroopers for example. Space Marines seem weak due to game balance, and to be kind to horde army players so they do not have to collect ridiculous amounts of models. That does not mean that that's true in the "real" 40k. Marines is in fact so superior to normal soldiers that they aren't even in the same league. Power armor is all but invincible to lasgun rounds.
You're mistaking movie marines for actual fluff marines. Movie marines are a lie that space marine fanboys tell themselves to make themselves feel better.
Not really, no.
If the book's about Space Marines, Space Marines are above and beyond anything else.
If the book's about Guardsmen, Guardsmen are plucky, scrappy veterans who can take out a Terminator squad using nothing more than rocks and chewing gum.
Welcome to battle porn. The focus of the story is always more impressive than the opposition or allies.
Edit: The one exception off the top of my head being Salvation's Reach, where three measly Marines waltz effortlessly through regiments of Blood Pack and, as always, half of Gaunt's Ghosts die.
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Melissia wrote:
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Seaward wrote:Suggesting that a squad of Guardsmen who put on their thinking caps for five minutes will always destroy a squad of Marines is just as asinine, though.
No it's not. An ambush with mines, IEDs, booby traps, and heavy and special weapons will utterly devastate a Marine squad when competently performed.
Can a Marine tank a lascannon hit? A plasma cannon? A multimelta? How about a battle cannon or a demolisher shell? If you stick a meltabomb or krak grenade on them are they going to shrug that off? What if you drop a nuke on them?
That's a lot of questions!
Lascannon: maybe, depends on where you hit, a headshot is a kill, but he should survive (but with serious injuries, augmetics likely required) a body hit. also depends on the quality of the armor- scout armor: no, artificier armor. most likely.
Plasma cannon: more tricky. a direct hit is a almost gauranteed kill, but getting a direct hit is easier said than done; and splash damage can mostly be shrugged off.
Multimelta: short range, so the marine will likely see you and kill you, but if you manage to fire then it once more depends on where you hit, but it should inflict heavy damage, likely kill. (remember that you fire AIR, hitting is very hard.)¨
Battle and Demolisher cannon, same as plasma cannon.
And, no questions like "then why does not IG fighting chaos space marines use only these weapons?" they are rarer than you might think, and CSm is not exactly predictable.
And marines are superior tactically too, so unless you pinch mr. Creed they will outsmart you AND outfight you. Good luck.
The problem with any 40k military unit is that it is only as good as the guy who writes the fluff. And often these guys are nerds who are not very familiar with weapons and combat.
Like the SM could be totally awesome troops but now they have significant flaws because the people who make the fluff don't seem to realise how something could work against them.
For an example terminators are very melee based but due to their slow speed the enemy can evade them if they so wish, while terminators have to come in range for all AT-weapons if they wan't to melee the enemy and have to worry about grenades, bombs, mines and IED:s.
Also they have as an basic weapon storm bolters while they could have heavy weapons. It would make more sense to use them as mobile gun platforms instead of melee units.
( Though that could explain why terminators are so rare in the 40k universe. )
If one would make an IG unit upgraded to 21:st century standards while using 40k technology; CSM:s with fluff made by nerds would totally bite the dust.
It's what nerds are for, writing the fluff. ^^ And, after all, that with "21:st century standards" is incorrect, because, in case you've forgotten, we are talking about a GAME here. Terminators as gun platforms? This is something i've talked about before elsewhere, and that i am happy to say here. Take a look at your standard marine. He is not based on modern soldiers. He is based on medieval knights. And, when you consider it, there are many races that favor melee in 40k, so having your elites proficient in hand-to-hand combat makes sense.
Marine opens door, gets blown up by krak missile used to boobytrap (S8 AP3). One marine dead or disabled. Other marines scatter upon seeing this, several get killed/disabled by anti-tank mines (anywhere from S8 AP3 to even S10 depending on the mines). Survivors charge the building or retreat-- if they charge, they meet a room full of exposives (demo pack, easily kills anyone nearby)-- if they flee, the get picked apart by heavy weapons fire (any anti-tank weapon wil do) etc protected by special weapons (meltaguns and plasmaguns, preferably and lasguns (set to hi-power it can still do damage en masse, and one shot in a brain or one to each heart is all it takes to kill them). If they stay where they are they get picked off by heavy weapons or get artillery called on them.
This sort of ambush is hardly unheard of, and the Imperial Guard has the firepower and ordnance to make it work even against Marines.
Space Marines are easily able to avoid that. First, your biggest mistake. You took a game rule to prove your point. As i said, these are written to balance the game, not to make it "realistic" And, before the marine opens the door. 1. the squad's auspex guy checks for threats, easily spotting the soldiers that put out the traps. A single frag is thrown into the room, destroying the trap and rendering it useless, also destroying the explosives that was so stealthily used to fill a room. Even if the squad suffers a single casualty (unlikely, since you'll have a hard to time taking down a marine with a non- headshot, and aiming a trap...) they will calmly call for an apothecary. The aforementioned heavy weapons teams have been destroyed or pinned down by Devastators or snipers, since there is no marine (with a few notable exceptions) that are stupid enough to go into unknown ground without support. High-power lasguns? kill a marine in one shot? are you kidding me? first, you got to hit with it (hard, since it kicks like a mule on high power, and the soldier is panicked by the scary 2.70+ meters tall marines that attack him.) then you got to penetrate the armor, which is even more unlikely, considering the material and thickness of the ceramite. You will barely scratch it unless you hit the cunningly hidden soft armor or eye lenses, and if you penetrate, the shot has so low power that he will get a minor burn wound- easily ignored. Plasmas are even harder to aim, and very, very rare. Meltas need a small charge time between the pressing of the trigger and before the shot actually fires; this hardly matters against tanks but makes it easy for the marine to evade, if he doesn't simply kill the firer instead. Any more objections for me to pick apart?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Space Marines are easily able to avoid that. First, your biggest mistake. You took a game rule to prove your point.
Aside from the fact that you are, in fact, wrong and krak weapons do in fact in the lore blast open power armor and vehicle armor-- something the stats accurately represent-- the fan-wankery tone of your post is too annoying to read. Seriously, no, Marines are not gods.
Suffice it to say, Marines have been ambushed in the lore, which means that they can be ambushed again.
Accusing me of "fan-wankery" is quite amoral. First, i do not even play them; i like them, sure, but you seem to have something personal against them. And there is a difference between obvious "open-the-door" traps and more cunning ones. And, if it is as you say, that Marines are basicaly stormtroopers in slightly better armor, then guardsmen must be truly WORTHLESS!
Also, the fact that you did not answer on the rest of my statement is easily taken as a cue that you in fatc agree, but are too stubborn to see logic.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Accusing me of "fan-wankery" is quite amoral.
Not as long as you continue to do so.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And, if it is as you say
I did not say that in the first place, therefor your argument is null. Space Marines are supremely competent to a soldier, but they still make mistakes, lots of them. Black Library novels prove this.
Krak missiles able to blast up armor? Sure, but that doesn't mean it harms the marine. That you blow away the door to a car doesn't neccessarily means that the passenger leaning on the door is harmed, especially if the passenger is genemodified and trained to be as resilient and strong and possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not what you say, but what you mean.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Please do not call me a fan-wankering guy, should i start calling you a griefer? a hater? have you read the forum rules, my friend?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.
And, after all, that with "21:st century standards" is incorrect, because, in case you've forgotten, we are talking about a GAME here.
With that I meant an troop that would have more sensible tactics an equipment.
so having your elites proficient in hand-to-hand combat makes sense.
Unless they lose troops every time they attempt to close in on the enemy and manage to do this only 1/3 of the time.
Though I have to admit its funny when six CSM:s come from behind an corner and an waiting terminator with an power hammer kills them all one at a time.
A single frag is thrown into the room, destroying the trap and rendering it useless, also destroying the explosives that was so stealthily used to fill a room.
And as an result the marine who threw the grenade gets accelerated with some 2000m/s^2 out of the building. See? You just proved my point. An real SM would have an better way for dealing with IED:s.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Sure, but that doesn't mean it harms the marine.
They do.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Not what you say, but what you mean.
I said what I mean.
Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.
Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.
And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.
Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led. A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye. All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on. Almost all guard deployment have artillery, while most Marine deployments do not.
I just concluded everyhting you said in one sentence.
Limited numbers are not a disadvantage as long as your quality is so superior. And they have Thunderfire cannons, whirlwinds, and not to mention their starships.
and, as you might have read in many places (as i have)
Many can make surprise attacks. Ork kommandos, Stromtroopers, rangers... the list goes on. If that was their only skill, they would be extinct.
"Space marines are equally strong in attack or defense"
Punch to the face.
Melissia wrote:Marine opens door, gets blown up by krak missile used to boobytrap (S8 AP3).
Only if he's a very stupid Marine. If he was a clever Marine, he'd have the door checked, or skip that and just go through the wall instead.
One marine dead or disabled.
Providing he doesn't dodge the trap that he was to stupid to check for. Marines have super-human agility and wouldn't necessarily get caught in traps that would easily hit normal humans.
Other marines scatter upon seeing this,
Why? Seeing comrades getting blow up isn't anything new for most Space Marines. If anything, they now know that the path is clear and it's safe to proceed. They might even be smart enough to check in future.
several get killed/disabled by anti-tank mines (anywhere from S8 AP3 to even S10 depending on the mines).
And how did they get through this mine field to the door in the first place?
Survivors charge the building
So one dead means scatter like idiots, but many dead means attack?
or retreat--
Far more likely if they got into this situation, which isn't likely at all.
if they charge, they meet a room full of exposives (demo pack, easily kills anyone nearby)
They have to set off the demo packs first, which most marines are able to avoid, having trained for combat and not being stupid.
if they flee, the get picked apart by heavy weapons fire (any anti-tank weapon wil do) etc protected by special weapons (meltaguns and plasmaguns, preferably and lasguns (set to hi-power it can still do damage en masse, and one shot in a brain or one to each heart is all it takes to kill them).
And why didn't these weapons fire when the Marines were approaching the heavily guarded door?
If they stay where they are they get picked off by heavy weapons
Or they could kill the heavy weapons teams using their superior weaponry.
Power armour is not invulnerable. Solid plates are very resistant, the bodyglove and flexible portions.. not so much. That means that you can have vulnerability to certain kinds of attacks: snipers, sheer volume of fire (weapons with a high rate of fire, or large numbers of weapons). Area effect weapons (shrapnel, blast, incendiary, etc.) all have the potential to inflict harm in sufficient quantity. The only way this could NOT be true is to literally argue they are invulnerable on the battlefield, which is silly because a Company of space marines cannot charge across open ground against a tank regiment and take down said regiment with bolters, and that would be about what you would require fro them to shrug off the kind of weapons the Guard do have.
All you're basically saying is "depends on circumstances, its possible for a marine to avoid a certain attack" unless you're also going to guarantee a Marine perfect reflexes and complete omnisicence on top of invulnerability. Anything less and Melissa will have a point, because all she needs is the sheer probability that a Marine can be injured/killed by a weapon for her point to be valid.
IG deploys as combined arms in every chance it can, it's standard operating procedure. Armoured and aritllery units are considered inferior to infantry officers.
Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on. No, they attack all at once, disrupt communications (good luck to call in artillery then!) and attack the command structure. snipe some officers and the men is confused and vulnerable. In the Bl books the conditions doesnt tend to be good for the SM. But some are more comptent than others. It is up to the individual writer, and i cant affect them.
Melissia wrote:
Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.
Someone has clearly never read Brothers of the Snake.
Melissia wrote:
Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.
You can provide a list of these mistakes right?
Melissia wrote:
And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.
As above.
Melissia wrote:
Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led.
You can give examples?
Melissia wrote:
A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye.
That would depend if the Guard officer has artillery on hand, or if said artillery has not been taken out.
Melissia wrote:
All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on.
A hundred guys isn’t going to last long. Three Astartes in Salvation’s Reach slaughtered over two hundred loxal and Sons of Sek before slaughtering many more.
Melissia wrote:
Almost all guard deployment have artillery, while most Marine deployments do not.
And almost all Astartes deployments will have orbital superiority. You know, it comes in the name.
Before he could answer, roaring gunfire hammered through the cloisters. Brother Caiyne and brother Guis fell, heavy calibre shells tearing through their breastplates and exploding within their chest cavities. Brother Septimus staggered, most of his shoulder torn away by a glancing hit, his arm hanging by gory threads of bone and sinew. He fired back with his good arm until another shot took his head off.
That's a heavy bolter tearing through Dark Angel power armor. Now, who has heavy bolters?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Not what you say, but what you mean.
I said what I mean.
Marines win through efficiently planned and executed surprise attacks and lightning attacks. When on the defensive, or when they are caught flat footed, they are at a disadvantage due to their limited numbers and limited support compared to the Imperial Guard.
This is not entirely true.
"When on the defensive", if the Astartes are knowing they're on the defensive and have prepared the field--it makes a very very different ballgame.
"When caught flatfooted" is a ridiculous specification to make though, as anyone "when caught flatfooted" is at a disadvantage.
Given the amount of mistakes they make in BL novels, it is not hard to see them falling for such an ambush I indicated before.
Which BL novels?
If you're citing C.S. Goto, we're going need to have "The Talk".
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, for your information, black library only writes about the very hardest of space marine battles. They would not be exciting at all otherwise.
And they make craptons of tactical errors, common-sense mistakes, forget briefings, etc in these situations, nevermind in normal situations.
Most books don't have Marines fighting guard, but when they do, they only have them fight guard that's incompetently led. A competent guard officer has more firepower at their command than a Marine sergeant-- even minor officers can call down artillery that can destroy a marine squad in the blink of an eye. All they have to do is tie the Marines up, something that is not hard to do when you have a hundred guys at your command with lots of heavy weapons, mines, and so on.
On the contrary, when they have Guard fighting Marines it's generally a slaughter for the Guard until the Guard find some way to negate the advantages the Astartes have(usually by utilizing heavy weapons to crack the armor, followed by flamer teams to cook them alive inside their wargear).
And minor officers can't call down artillery right away. It's usually a case of "Wait your turn"...especially when Traitor Astartes are on the field.
However, summing things up:
Comparing the Astartes to 'modern' Special Forces is a bit silly. Their status as near mythical isn't a bad thing to base the comparison upon, but the thing to remember is that Astartes generally can call down strikes that would make modern operators absurdly jealous. The point of the Astartes is not simply to be "Special Forces", but to be a kind of symbol to the Imperial soldiery of the Emperor of Mankind. The Astartes are his "Sons", and what's more there's a reason they're referred to as "The Angels of Death".
When i said prove it, i meant prove that a krak against a marine is a gauranteed kill -_-
and they got to hit first. with an antitank weapon.
good luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Kanluwen made a good point.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on.
Of course I do ,this is how they are depicted in the lore even if it is not necessarily the ideal.
Even the lore where they're the heroes they often do these sorts of things. *shrug*
Connor MacLeod wrote:From Let the Galaxy Burn, page 64
Before he could answer, roaring gunfire hammered through the cloisters. Brother Caiyne and brother Guis fell, heavy calibre shells tearing through their breastplates and exploding within their chest cavities. Brother Septimus staggered, most of his shoulder torn away by a glancing hit, his arm hanging by gory threads of bone and sinew. He fired back with his good arm until another shot took his head off.
That's a heavy bolter tearing through Dark Angel power armor. Now, who has heavy bolters?
“Tongues of fire blasted from the heavy bolters, reaching out towards the charging Ultramarines. Uriel saw the shells impact, bursting amongst the charging Space Marines, but not a single man fell, the blessed suits of powered armour withstanding the traitors’ fire. Idaeus triggered his jump pack and the rest of his squad followed suit, streaking forward with giant powered leaps.
Las-blasts filled the air, but the Ultramarines were too quick. Idaeus smashed down through the timber roof of the gun nest, a fearsome war cry bursting from his lips. He swung his power sword, decapitating a rebel trooper, and backhanded his pistol into another’s chest, smashing his ribcage to splinters.” - Ultramarines Omnibus, p.5 & 6 - Chains of Command
Astartes surviving multiple hits from heavy bolters.
Chilles and Xander catch a dozen of the enemy as they panic. They impose a crossfire that pulverises all. More emerge, firing back with lasguns and autocannon. A searing shot marks Xander's shoulder guard with a denting scorch. Memnes moves in around them, setting up a third part to the crossfire. Like the three suns with their inescapable shadows, the three tracing lines of their bolter fire pummel into and explode corrupted bags of flesh. Memnes chuckles as he does the Emperor's work.
Calignes moves from bunker to bunker, slaughtering. Through one doorway, he turns to face the stained features of a screaming heathen who opens up on him with an autocannon. Thumped backwards three paces by the succession of impacts to his carapace, Calignes grunts. His boltgun has been blown from his fist and his smallest finger has been vaporised. The autocannon cycles suddenly on empty, and as the cultist gropes for a reload, Calignes rushes him, exploding his head with a clap of his augmented fists.
The Iron Snakes move deeper into the facility. Between two low concrete blockhouses, Maced is rushed by twenty cultists who stream over him like ants, bludgeoning him with girder strips and wrenches. He laughs as he kills them, crushing necks, splintering limbs, punching his fists through bodies. His battledress now dressed with blood, he churns through the gore into the control room and tears the cultist he finds at the primary console into two twitching pieces.
Astartes taking point blank hits from an autocannon.
Tell me which lore you read? i have never seen anything o what you suggest (except for some overconfident battlehungry guys that charge into a ork horde, kills hundreds and then die. but that is not what you meant, i think.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:When i said prove it, i meant prove that a krak against a marine is a gauranteed kill -_-
I didn't say that.
I said it would reliably kill or disable them. Depending on where the explosion emanated from, it could merely disable, or it could kill outright. Yes, Marines can be disabled without being killed. A marine without legs is vulnerable to any number of finishes. A marine with his chest blown out is likely unconscious at best. His head caved in or blown off, he's dead.
Brother Phokris died, his helmet blown wide open even as he pressed the firing stud on his missile launcher. Brother Wrackath fell to the ground by Sarpedon's side, his leg sheared off by heavy bolter fire.
Chapter War, page 194
Spoiler:
Lasfire splashed his armour. A heavy bolter shell smacked into his chestplate and he felt it crack.
Wolfblade, page 252. Single shots can be resisted, multiple fire difficult.
Spoiler:
Nemiel saw Marthes stagger as two of the autocannon’s explosive shells struck him in the chest. There was a double flash, coming so close together that the sound of the blasts merged into a single loud thunderclap. The Astartes staggered forward a few steps more, then fell forward onto his face. His status indicator in Nemiel’s helmet display went abruptly black.
Fallen Angels, Page 313
Spoiler:
An autocannon was a loud, inefficient, old-fashioned weapon that fired shells of sufficient size to crack even power armour.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, all the things you've said presumes that the marines in question are stupid enough to walk into a trap/stand still and beg to be shot by artillery/and so on.
Of course I do ,this is how they are depicted in the lore even if it is not necessarily the ideal.
Even the lore where they're the heroes they often do these sorts of things. *shrug*
Such as when? For every one time they're shown as being caught by surprise, there's twenty in which they're infallible battle-gods.
Actually it is the ones where they're depicted as infallible battlegods that is where they make the most tactical mistakes and bone-headed decisions--- it's really only through the armor of plot combined with their enemies making their own stupid mistakes that they won in these situations. The ones where Marines are depicted as lower in power they tend to be portrayed as more intelligent and competent...
Some BL writers think that armor and biological enhancements are a replacement for tactical know-how, but they aren't.
Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds and biological enhancements which can allow you to punch your fist clean through someone's sternum---your tactics are going to be very different.
Personally I believe that SM: are fit ONLY for the role of special forces.
Of course SF can be used in the CoM supporting conventional troops.
If they attempt to fight an larger troop conventionally they would be gunned down or blown to pieces due to their high target priority and small numbers. It would be totally sensible to collapse four skyscrapers on an squad of SM:s considering their high cost, priority, rarity and danger for own units.
Kanluwen wrote:Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds
They don't, really. The predator is the exception to this, but it's a light tank which is very lightly armed and intended for mobility despite its depiction in tabletop. Even then though, the autocannon is gonna really put a hurt on a marine.
What are we defining as a tank round? A modern APFSDS has around 7000 kg*m/s of momentum, and around 6-7 MJ worth of KE. What weapon has a Space Marine stood up to that mathces that, out of curiosity?
Edit: Considering a tank round hitting a marine would send him flying back tens if not hundreds of metres on a single impact, I'd be hard pressed to think of a single example offhand in any of the fluff. The closest that you get is MAYBE with termiantor armor.
Connor MacLeod wrote:What are we defining as a tank round? A modern APFSDS has around 7000 kg*m/s of momentum, and around 6-7 MJ worth of KE. What weapon has a Space Marine stood up to that mathces that, out of curiosity?
An autocannon probably. However, even then, I really don't think the armor can reliably stop multiple direct hits at a time.
1.) We don't know how many shots or how many heavy bolters from Chapter War, but that's really beside the point since I'm not trying to argue absolute vulnerability.
2.) Outlier goes both ways, so I wouldn't go invoking that unless you have alot better evidence.
It's acually more plausible that way since a.) no body armor is guaranteed to provide 100% immunity Even in Real life. More to the point, there is a difference between glancing and direct hits. It's one of the reasons why modern armor is sloped or angled - it makes it harder to penetrate.
Also from Salamanders page 236
Spoiler:
Chugging thunder erupted from above Tsu’gan as heavy bolter and autocannon emplacements started to eat through their ammunition belts.
Crying out in rage and anguish, Tsu’gan saw three of his battle-brothers threaded by munitions fire. Power armour was tough; tough enough to withstand such weapons as these, but the sheer rate
of shells increased their potency threefold.
Unfortunately, in Tsu’gan’s eyes at least, N’keln had not been one of those caught in the ash slide. Barking swift commands from what was left of the ridge peak, he attempted to restore some
coherency to his forces. Pinned down in the basin, though, the stricken Salamanders were getting slaughtered.
...
“Use the transports as armoured cover.”
Also from Fallen Angels again page 369
Spoiler:
Force Commander Lamnos lay in a coma, his primary heart and his oolitic kidney ruptured by an autocannon blast..
to be fair there's also this from Fallen angels page 278
Spoiler:
A burst of heavy bolter fire answered them, stitching the two Astartes with a stream of shells. Both warriors staggered beneath the hits, but their armour turned aside the blows.
So it can resist (or at least be deflected away by) without penetration, but then again I am not arguing that heavy bolters have to always penetrate - I'm simply pointing out that they don't have total immunity to autocannon or heavy bolter fire. That's actually the point. some people seem to be arguing that Space Marine armor has complete and utter immunity from both small arms and heavy weapons up to the most powerful anti-tank types. EG that you literally need a plasma cannon, melta, or lascannon to defeat it, which is, frankly, silly.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
2.) Outlier goes both ways, so I wouldn't go invoking that unless you have alot better evidence.
I see no reason to doubt my examples.
Connor MacLeod wrote:It's acually more plausible that way since a.) no body armor is guaranteed to provide 100% immunity Even in Real life. More to the point, there is a difference between glancing and direct hits. It's one of the reasons why modern armor is sloped or angled - it makes it harder to penetrate.
I'm not arging absolute invulrnability. In an Astarte stands and does nothing on frotn of multiple autocannons than that would be bad for him. I'm arguing it's simply not very effective.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Chugging thunder erupted from above Tsu’gan as heavy bolter and autocannon emplacements started to eat through their ammunition belts.
Crying out in rage and anguish, Tsu’gan saw three of his battle-brothers threaded by munitions fire. Power armour was tough; tough enough to withstand such weapons as these, but the sheer rate
of shells increased their potency threefold.
Unfortunately, in Tsu’gan’s eyes at least, N’keln had not been one of those caught in the ash slide. Barking swift commands from what was left of the ridge peak, he attempted to restore some
coherency to his forces. Pinned down in the basin, though, the stricken Salamanders were getting slaughtered.
...
“Use the transports as armoured cover.”
Excellent, we have a statement of them being tough enought to withstand them. Thank you for helping my argument.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Also from Fallen Angels again page 369
Force Commander Lamnos lay in a coma, his primary heart and his oolitic kidney ruptured by an autocannon blast..
So he's not dead right?
Connor MacLeod wrote:So it can resist (or at least be deflected away by) without penetration, but then again I am not arguing that heavy bolters have to always penetrate - I'm simply pointing out that they don't have total immunity to autocannon or heavy bolter fire. That's actually the point. some people seem to be arguing that Space Marine armor has complete and utter immunity from both small arms and heavy weapons up to the most powerful anti-tank types. EG that you literally need a plasma cannon, melta, or lascannon to defeat it, which is, frankly, silly.
I guess if you took an Astartes and had him stand still it would do something.
Nightbringer, page 161
Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.
This is stated to be a heavy autocannon and Learchus takes multiple hits.
Ghostmaker
“Small arms!” Ortiz ordered. “Use the pintle mounts!” As he spoke, he cranked round the
autocannon mounted on his vehicle’s rear and angled it at the nearest monster.
The killing started. The rasping belch of flamers reached his ears and he heard the screams of
men cooking inside their superheated tank hulls. The Chaos Marine he had first spotted reached the
Basilisk ahead of his and began to chop its shell like firewood with a chain-axe. Sparks blew up
from punctured metal. Sparks, flames, metal shards, meat.
Screaming, Ortiz trained his mounted gun on the World Eater and fired. He shot long at first, but
corrected before the monster could turn. The creature didn’t seem to feel the first hits. Ortiz
clenched the trigger and streamed the heavy tracer fire at the red spectre. At last the figure
shuddered, convulsed and then blew apart.
Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ.
He realised his ammo drum was almost empty. He was snapping it free and shouting to his
bombardier for a fresh one when the shadow fell on him.
Obviously not as tough as a Russ, but it does take pretty much the entire ammo drum at very close range to finallty kill it.
First and Only
In the centre of the Shriven retaliation, Gaunt saw the first of the Chaos Space Marines, a huge
horned beast, centuries old and bearing the twisted markings of the Iron Warriors chapter. The
monstrosity exhorted his mutated troops to victory with great howls from his augmented larynx. His
ancient, ornate boltgun spat death into the Tanith ranks. Sergeant Grell was vaporised by one of the
first hits, two of his fire team a moment later.
“Target him!” Gaunt yelled at Bragg, and the giant turned his huge firepower in the general
direction with no particular success. The Chaos Marine proceeded to punch butchering fire into the
Vitrian front line. Then he exploded. Headless, armless, his legs and torso rocked for a moment and
then fell.
Gaunt nodded his grim thanks to Trooper Melyr and his missile launcher. Lasfire and screaming
autogun rounds wailed down from the Shriven units at the elevator assembly. Gaunt ducked into
cover behind some freighting pallets and found himself sharing the cover with two Vitrians who
were busy changing the power cells of their las guns.
Bragg was noted to have an assault cannon earlier.
Trooper Bragg had an assault cannon which he had liberated from a pintle mount some weeks
before. Gaunt had never seen a man fire one without the aid of power armour’s recoil compensators
or lift capacity before. Bragg grimaced and strained with the effort of steadying the howling weapon
with its six cycling bands, and his aim was its usual miserable standard. He killed dozens of the
enemy anyway. Not to mention a maglev train.
“‘We’re exposed out here,’ Bulle muttered. ‘Let’s get back into the forest.’Tarvitz was amused. Bulle made it sound as if the stalk thickets were safe ground.Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching theearth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, likeupturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive,detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.”
“The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lightning had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles. The shield-storm seemed to be pressing down on them, like a lid across the sky, pressurising the air, and squeezing them in an atmospheric vice.” / Horus Rising, p.233 - **
They resist lightning withthe force of penetrator missles.
Melissia wrote:Actually it is the ones where they're depicted as infallible battlegods that is where they make the most tactical mistakes and bone-headed decisions--- it's really only through the armor of plot combined with their enemies making their own stupid mistakes that they won in these situations. The ones where Marines are depicted as lower in power they tend to be portrayed as more intelligent and competent...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?
Space Marines are head and shoulders above a regular Guardsman, however, its the Space Marines sheer resilience and psycho conditioning that makes them shine. They have two hearts, better bone density, glands and senses that can detect and minimize toxins and nueral diseases, a gland that makes them spit tar (or something like that), heightened senses and reflexes, and the psychological training to feel no fear and maintaining calm, and being able to maintain supreme cognition in the heat of battle.
Having a Space Marine waltz into a warzone where regular Guardsmen need hazard rebreathers and equipment is a much bigger plus than super strength.
However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).
Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.
KplKeegan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?
First of all that was before C'than shards were invented and the C'tan was noted to be heavily starved and weakened.
KplKeegan wrote:
However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).
Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.
Are you claiming that power amror offers no protection again lasguns?
Kanluwen wrote:Except when you have armor which can stop tank rounds
They don't, really. The predator is the exception to this, but it's a light tank which is very lightly armed and intended for mobility despite its depiction in tabletop. Even then though, the autocannon is gonna really put a hurt on a marine.
And what you're missing is that most heretic forces are using tanks with cannon which are equivalent to autocannons.
The Urdeshi pattern "Reaver" is a good example of this.
But really. You missed the point anyways. When you have armor which can stop most forms of man portable weaponry and requires heavy weapons teams to engage the target--your tactics are not going to be the same as the Guard's tactics.
Imperial Armour 2 does a bang-up job talking about how the Astartes will defend locations: mainly with Sentry Guns bearing the bulk of the defense, Devastator Squads in elevated and heavily fortified positions and precisely planned 'killzones' to maximize the Devastators' and Sentry Guns' effectiveness while mitigating the enemy's advantage of numbers.
No, you're not. Marines are only perceived as gods upon the battlefield. They are not actually so. In truth they are merely supremely competent soldiers, not infallible battlegods.
Maybe so, but I can see a marine taking a tank shot from one that looks like it could have come from WWII and then proceeding to punch through it. That's not hard to believe.
KplKeegan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Graham McNiel also write that Uriel Ventris stared down the Night Bringer in the first Ultramarines Book, which in the reality of what a Ctan (shard) is, should never be possible?
First of all that was before C'than shards were invented and the C'tan was noted to be heavily starved and weakened.
But it could shread Uriel Ventris' keister with a flick of its finger.
KplKeegan wrote:
However, this advantage does not make them 'invulnerable'. The comparison of a Space Marine running through las gun fire is a stilted one, due from the las guns design moreso than the operator firing it. Las bolts cauterize flesh when they pass through a solid body, preventing one from bleeding out, so a Space Marine's physiology should, in all respects, be able to staunch the most severe trauma from a las bolt (unless its a head shot).
Unlike the bolter round which is a mini rocket-propelled bullet.
Are you claiming that power amror offers no protection again lasguns?
I never said that. I was merely stating that a las gun is a poor comparison based on its design on a flesh body. Now since Space Marines are heavily augmented, the las guns basic aumminition works against it, rather than for it.
Power armor is a different comparison with its own merits.
And you're an infallible arbiter of what is right and wrong in 40K, right? So why should your examples be "more valid" than my own, pray tell?
I'm not arging absolute invulrnability. In an Astarte stands and does nothing on frotn of multiple autocannons than that would be bad for him. I'm arguing it's simply not very effective.
Which is fine. That's supported by plenty of examples. But they cna't just stand there and take autocannon fire indefinitely. There are limits to the amount of punishment an Astartes can take, and they know that. That's why they seek to minimize
Excellent, we have a statement of them being tough enought to withstand them. Thank you for helping my argument.
Uh no. sustained heavy bolter and autocannon fire are hurting them. Or did you think Tsu'Gan was upset because "oh no, they scratched the green paint job?" Or maybe you think they decided to use the rhinos for protection because the sun was too bright?
So he's not dead right?
Uh, no. but being in a coma is not exactly trivial, is it?
I guess if you took an Astartes and had him stand still it would do something.
Why is it only applicable if he's "standing still?"
Nightbringer, page 161
Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.
Sounds like he wasn't at all certain that the armor would stand up to the fire. Not surprising considering from the same source
Autocannon fire sprayed a group of Space Marines from Sergeant Elerna’s squad. Four went down; only two got back up.
Ultramarines omnibus, page 242
This is stated to be a heavy autocannon and Learchus takes multiple hits.
It can't be all that powerful, since it doesn't impart much momentum (on sustained fire) to the Sergeant. A 30mm Avenger round rould for example probably have driven the sergeant into the girl he was protecting due to sheer momentum.
“Small arms!” Ortiz ordered. “Use the pintle mounts!” As he spoke, he cranked round the
autocannon mounted on his vehicle’s rear and angled it at the nearest monster.
The killing started. The rasping belch of flamers reached his ears and he heard the screams of
men cooking inside their superheated tank hulls. The Chaos Marine he had first spotted reached the
Basilisk ahead of his and began to chop its shell like firewood with a chain-axe. Sparks blew up
from punctured metal. Sparks, flames, metal shards, meat.
Screaming, Ortiz trained his mounted gun on the World Eater and fired. He shot long at first, but
corrected before the monster could turn. The creature didn’t seem to feel the first hits. Ortiz
clenched the trigger and streamed the heavy tracer fire at the red spectre. At last the figure
shuddered, convulsed and then blew apart.
Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ.
He realised his ammo drum was almost empty. He was snapping it free and shouting to his
bombardier for a fresh one when the shadow fell on him.
Obviously not as tough as a Russ, but it does take pretty much the entire ammo drum at very close range to finallty kill it. You also note he had to compensate for his initial salvo - how many orunds is that? How many was he carrying?
Wasn't this the same scene where the ghosts show up and save them by driving off these World Eaters? It can't take heavy vehicle firepower if light infantry can do it.
First and Only
Bragg was noted to have an assault cannon earlier.
And he's also known as "Try Again" Bragg because he tends to miss, as the quote indicates. As I recall, first and only also demonstrated lasguns on max and long las do a rather good job of killing Marines if you aim right.
But hey, if we're opening the door to CSM examples, I can always toss in examples from stuff like Dark Creed too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:Imperial Armour 2 does a bang-up job talking about how the Astartes will defend locations: mainly with Sentry Guns bearing the bulk of the defense, Devastator Squads in elevated and heavily fortified positions and precisely planned 'killzones' to maximize the Devastators' and Sentry Guns' effectiveness while mitigating the enemy's advantage of numbers.
That's true. There's also IA3 and the Taros campaign, where the Raptors chapter managed to fight a stationary conflict against the Tau and fought them off for what.. most of a day?
Alot of it will depend on the kind of terrain they're fighting in. If there's some pretty hefty cover or other form of protection, then Astartes can defend a position quite well. That's what the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors were good at, after all.
In comparison to real-world equivalents, Stormtroopers are Special Forces in regards of striking deep behind enemy lines, being stealthy and then raising hell.
Space Marines are more or less Gods. They descend from the literal God on Earth, the Emperor. Mankind sees them as angels. Fluff wise, each Space Marine is a one-man-army. Obviously, this can't be reflected in the actual game. But anyway, in comparison to real-life, they're of a whole different brand of military to anything we've got at the moment. We've got SAS and Navy SEALs who are closest to Stormtroopers in regards of capability and tactics, but we don't have genetically and bionically augmented super-soldiers yet.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And you're an infallible arbiter of what is right and wrong in 40K, right? So why should your examples be "more valid" than my own, pray tell?
Several of them involve merely cracking power armor. It’s not exactly what I would call a solid Anti-Astartes weapon..
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which is fine. That's supported by plenty of examples. But they cna't just stand there and take autocannon fire indefinitely. There are limits to the amount of punishment an Astartes can take, and they know that. That's why they seek to minimize
I don’t believe I ever claimed they could take autocannon fire indefinitely. But I would assume you need sustained hits from many autocannons (Like the in the Salamander example) to be effective in a combat situation.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Uh no. sustained heavy bolter and autocannon fire are hurting them.
From multiple cannons in a fortified position. That’s not what I would call an effective weapon against Astartes.
Correct me If I’m wrong, but you seem to think that autocannons saw through power armor like swiss cheese.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Uh, no. but being in a coma is not exactly trivial, is it?
Once again he’s not dead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Why is it only applicable if he's "standing still?"
Because in a combat situation an Astartes with his speed and reflexes would be moving and firing and killing.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Sounds like he wasn't at all certain that the armor would stand up to the fire. Not surprising considering from the same source
It doesn’t sound like he was uncertain at all to me.
That doesn’t specify they were dead. Plus that was autocannon fire from a whole dug-in PDF company.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
It can't be all that powerful, since it doesn't impart much momentum (on sustained fire) to the Sergeant. A 30mm Avenger round rould for example probably have driven the sergeant into the girl he was protecting due to sheer momentum.
Or perhaps Astartes are just that tough?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
You also note he had to compensate for his initial salvo - how many orunds is that? How many was he carrying?
You don’t know how many rounds he had, but ‘’at last’’ indicates he shot for a while.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Wasn't this the same scene where the ghosts show up and save them by driving off these World Eaters? It can't take heavy vehicle firepower if light infantry can do it.
You mean the same scene that had practically the entire regiment ambush 4-5 World Eaters and hit them with everything they had?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And he's also known as "Try Again" Bragg because he tends to miss, as the quote indicates. .
And we don't have confirmation that he actually missed.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
As I recall, first and only also demonstrated lasguns on max and long las do a rather good job of killing Marines if you aim right.
Not quite.
Gaunt was right in the thing’s face. He could do nothing but lunge with his chainsword, driving
the shrieking blade deep into the Chaos Marine’s armoured torso. The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”
That's not exactly a good jod considering how much punishment the Astartes took before finally going down.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
But hey, if we're opening the door to CSM examples, I can always toss in examples from stuff like Dark Creed too.
We are talking about Marines’ aren’t we? Why wouldn’t we include Chaos Examples?
KplKeegan wrote:
But it could shread Uriel Ventris' keister with a flick of its finger.
And that’s why he bluffs it. The Nightbringer already slaughtered several Astarte with ease. Have you actually read the novel?
So, essentially, we've concluded that as long as someone like Melissia's writing the Marines, and they walk head-on into an ambush and behave exactly as he dictates, they'll lose to Guard?
I'll buy that.
Different writers write Space Marine tactics differently. ADB with Raven Guard? Yeah, those guys will out-think any Guardsman around. Graham McNeill with Ultramarines? Maybe not so much.
Gree wrote: And that’s why he bluffs it. The Nightbringer already slaughtered several Astarte with ease. Have you actually read the novel?
Yes. But he should've never been able to bluff it with a Melta Bomb in the first place.
He was bluffing to collapse the entire mineshaft and trap everyone there so the Nightbringer would starve. He's not trying to kill the Nightbringer with a meltabomb.
Said C'tan was already badly weakened and starved from millions of years of imprisonment.
Gree wrote:Several of them involve merely cracking power armor. It’s not exactly what I would call solid.
Modern tank armor cracks when it's hit too. Doesn't mean it can stand up to repeated hits from the same weapon. Hell, modern rigid plates for military body armor crack on hit as well - its part of the protective properties, as well as the main reason why body armor isn't 100% perfect either.
I don’t believe I ever claimed they could take autocannon fire indefinitely. But I would assume you need sustained hits from many autocannons (Like the in the Salamander example) to be effective in a combat situation.
Depends on the autocannon and where it's hit.
From multiple cannons in a fortified position. That’s not what I would call an effective weapon against Astartes.
Correct me If I’m wrong, but you seem to think that autocannons saw through power armor like swiss cheese.
No, I'm saying they can penetrate armor. You seem to think that the only possible way autocannon or heavy bolter fire could *possibly* harm an astartes is if he sits in place for a prolonged length of time. Which of course begs the question of why they even bother firing bolters at each other if that were the case. since, you know, regular bolters can penetrate astartes armor too.
Once again he’s not dead.
Because Space Marines fight whilst in a coma all the time, right? That's why the only way you can be sure they're stopped is if they're dead.
Because in a combat situation an Astartes with his speed and reflexes would be moving and firing and killing.
So? Are you saying a Space MArine is impossible to hit when he's moving even by automatic fire?
That doesn’t specify they were dead. Plus that was autocannon fire from a whole dug-in PDF company.
I love how you simultaneoulsy declare "it doesn't matter unless they're dead" and somehow imply that an entire company is going ot be equipped with nothing but autocannons.
Or perhaps Astartes are just that tough?
So you're now claiming Astartes are so tough that they can actually ignore physics? Or are oyu going to change tactics and suddenly decide we can only apply physics (EG what a suit of power armor can and can't stand up to) when you arbitrarily choose?
You don’t know how many rounds he had, but ‘’at last’’ indicates he shot for a while.
so you don't know how many shots it takes. Weren't you just criticizing me for citing vague examples like that?
You mean the same scene that had practically the entire regiment ambush 4-5 World Eaters and hit them with everything they had?
As I recall there was no indication it required the whole regiment to concentrate all its firepower on 4-5 world eaters. You know, like they'd all converge on that same spot and wipe them out.
And we have confirmation that he actually missed.
Which is kinda the point. Using Bragg as a benchmark for anything isn't much since his accuracy is pretty bad. You do realize "poor accuracy" is going to not only affect whether or not something hits him, but important factors like "angles at which bulllets strike the target?" Or did you forget that angle matters to penetration?
Not quite.
Gaunt was right in the thing’s face. He could do nothing but lunge with his chainsword, driving
the shrieking blade deep into the Chaos Marine’s armoured torso. The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”
Yeah, except that last bit where the las blast takes his head off. Space Marine smay be tough, but they sorta need a head and brain to function.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Modern tank armor cracks when it's hit too. Doesn't mean it can stand up to repeated hits from the same weapon. Hell, modern rigid plates for military body armor crack on hit as well - its part of the protective properties, as well as the main reason why body armor isn't 100% perfect either.
Than that’s hardly cutting through the armor with ease now is it?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Depends on the autocannon and where it's hit.
Well in this case we have a solid example of an Astartes taking point blank rounds from an autocannon and living.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
You seem to think that the only possible way autocannon or heavy bolter fire could *possibly* harm an astartes is if he sits in place for a prolonged length of time.
That’s what I’ve gathered from the various quotes yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Why would an Astartes stand still?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which of course begs the question of why they even bother firing bolters at each other if that were the case. since, you know, regular bolters can penetrate astartes armor too.
Because those Astartes also move fast and can fire entire clips if needed.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because Space Marines fight whilst in a coma all the time, right? That's why the only way you can be sure they're stopped is if they're dead.
Once again, he’s not dead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
So? Are you saying a Space MArine is impossible to hit when he's moving even by automatic fire?
Not impossible, simply highly unlikely.
This is what I’m talking about.
Hunt for Voldorious
As Shrike led his squads across the open ground a heavy bolter in a nearby
bunker opened fire. The earth churned as dozens of large-calibre shells exploded at
the Raven Guards’ feet. Shrike activated his jump pack and, followed by his
Command squad, leapt through the air towards the heavy bolter position.
The airborne charge took only seconds, but in that brief interval the captain
located his target and fixed all his attentions upon it. As he closed, suppressive fire
from other Raven Guard units exploded across the heavy weapon’s gun shield,
causing the traitor militia trooper manning it to duck down at the very instant he
should have been firing.
Captain Shrike raised his glittering talons high as he came in to land, slashing
downwards and cutting the heavy bolter in two. Then he was on the fortified upper
deck of the bunker and the gunner was scrabbling away from him. The man’s face
was contorted in terror, his dark grey fatigues soiled where he had voided his bowels
in panic. Shrike had no inclination to show mercy, but the man was less of a threat
than the dozen or so of his fellow traitors spilling from a hatch in the deck.
Granted, Shrike has a jump pack.
Legends of the Space Marines
The hot breath of the two Astartes was white in the cold as they panted like predators sated from the hunt. But this hunt was not finished. For from down the tracks came the sound of steel feet on the rocks, and the roaring voice of an engine. And before the Astartes could ready themselves, from the frozen darkness lumbered a Sentinel walker.
Many of you have seen such a thing, and perhaps even fought alongside them, for they are commonly used by the armies of the Imperial Guard. This, however, was different. Its two legs were reinforced with sturdy armour plates and its cab, in which its traitor driver cowered, was as heavily plated as a tank. It had been made with techniques forgotten to the masters of the forge worlds today, and it bore as its weapon a pair of autocannon. This was no mere spindly scouting machine! This was an engine of destruction.
“Despair not!” shouted the headstrong Hrothgar as this monster came into view. “You shall not have to face this machine, old man, wizened and decrepit as you are! I shall ensure this traitor’s eyes are on me alone. All you need do, venerable one, is fire that missile launcher of yours!”
Daegalan had it in mind to scold the Blood Claw for his insolence, but it was not the time for such things.
Hrothgar ran into view of the Sentinel. He fired off shots from his bolt pistol, and the Sentinel turned to hunt him through the valley’s shadows. But Hrothgar was fast and valiant, and even as the Sentinel’s mighty guns opened fire he sprinted from rock to rock, from flinty fissure to deep shadow, and every shell spat by the Sentinel’s guns was wasted against unyielding stone. At that time it happened a flurry of snow was blown up by Mother Fenris’ icy breath and Hrothgar ventured closer still, diving between the metal feet of the Sentinel, knowing that he was too fast and his movements too unpredictable for the machine’s pilot to fire upon him with accuracy.
So infuriated was the pilot of the Sentinel that he forgot, as lesser soldiers than Astartes are wont to do, the true threat he was facing. For Daegalan the Long Fang had indeed taken aim with his missile launcher, the only weapon the Astartes had between them that might pierce the machine’s armour. With a roar the missile fired, and with a vicious bark it exploded. The rear of the Sentinel was torn clear away, and the pilot mortally wounded. Exposed to the cold night, the blood from his many wounds froze. But he did not have long to suffer this fate, for Hrothgar the Blood Claw climbed up the legs of the Sentinel and tore out the traitor’s spine with his bare hands.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
I love how you simultaneoulsy declare "it doesn't matter unless they're dead" and somehow imply that an entire company is going ot be equipped with nothing but autocannons.
I never claimed or implied that the entire company had autocannons. It would be reasonable to assume that a company-sized formation would posses quite a lot of supper weapons?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
So you're now claiming Astartes are so tough that they can actually ignore physics? Or are oyu going to change tactics and suddenly decide we can only apply physics (EG what a suit of power armor can and can't stand up to) when you arbitrarily choose?
I am not saying they ignore physics, it is just apparent to me that Astartes are tough enough to absorb the momentum.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
so you don't know how many shots it takes. Weren't you just criticizing me for citing vague examples like that?
Because you didn’t really provide any indication as to why the quote was good or not.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which is kinda the point. Using Bragg as a benchmark for anything isn't much since his accuracy is pretty bad. You do realize "poor accuracy" is going to not only affect whether or not something hits him, but important factors like "angles at which bulllets strike the target?" Or did you forget that angle matters to penetration?
So in other words you can’t confirm that he missed.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Yeah, except that last bit where the las blast takes his head off. Space Marine smay be tough, but they sorta need a head and brain to function.
I don’t believe I ever claimed they could survive without a head.
iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field, are equipped with high-grade Carapace armour with more powerful lasguns that require a back-pack power source. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
No, they deep-strike behind an enemy landraider, blow it up, then die.
Kanluwen wrote:And what you're missing is that most heretic forces are using tanks with cannon which are equivalent to autocannons.
It was a discussion about Guard, actually. The argument was taht your beloved Cadians could not take down a space marine squad in an ambush. Apparently Space Marines are so damn powerful that nothing but another space marine can take them down.
Of course they could. A hoard of kittens could kill a marine in an ambush in one out of three million attempts.
I think they have a very low chance of success though. A lot of things would have to go their way. They would have to be abnormally competent guardsmen and the marines would have to be abnormally incompetent for marines...And still this does not guarantee success. They would need a lot of environmental factors going their way as well. Throw in a hefty dosage of luck...And I think they'll wipe out the squad maybe 10% of the time with minimal loses. Maybe ensure something like mutual destruction 20% of the time. Probably just get cut through like a wheat field come harvest time in most circumstances though.
Gree wrote:
Than that’s hardly cutting through the armor with ease now is it?
no its not. Its a good thing that I never argued they cna easily penetrate, is it? Do you like constructing strawmen, or what?
Well in this case we have a solid example of an Astartes taking point blank rounds from an autocannon and living.
Yeah so? We have examples of Ragnar blackmane surviving a heavy stubber round ot the temple. Should we assume Space Marine skin is kevlar now?
That’s what I’ve gathered from the various quotes yes. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Why would an Astartes stand still?
Because you contraidcted yourself? You claim that its impossible to damage an Astartes with heavy weapons unless he's standing still, yet you also claim that most of my examples are precisely that (where Astartes get hit by large quantities of weapons fire - which you claim shouldn't be happening because of how agile the Astartes are.)
Nevermind that you're basically claiming they are immune to bolter fire for much the same reasons - unless we are supposed to believe bolters are more powerful than heavy bolters.
Because those Astartes also move fast and can fire entire clips if needed.
This is what I’m talking about.
Hunt for Voldorious
As Shrike led his squads across the open ground a heavy bolter in a nearby
bunker opened fire. The earth churned as dozens of large-calibre shells exploded at
the Raven Guards’ feet. Shrike activated his jump pack and, followed by his
Command squad, leapt through the air towards the heavy bolter position.
The airborne charge took only seconds, but in that brief interval the captain
located his target and fixed all his attentions upon it. As he closed, suppressive fire
from other Raven Guard units exploded across the heavy weapon’s gun shield,
causing the traitor militia trooper manning it to duck down at the very instant he
should have been firing.
Captain Shrike raised his glittering talons high as he came in to land, slashing
downwards and cutting the heavy bolter in two. Then he was on the fortified upper
deck of the bunker and the gunner was scrabbling away from him. The man’s face
was contorted in terror, his dark grey fatigues soiled where he had voided his bowels
in panic. Shrike had no inclination to show mercy, but the man was less of a threat
than the dozen or so of his fellow traitors spilling from a hatch in the deck.
Granted, Shrike has a jump pack.
Legends of the Space Marines
The hot breath of the two Astartes was white in the cold as they panted like predators sated from the hunt. But this hunt was not finished. For from down the tracks came the sound of steel feet on the rocks, and the roaring voice of an engine. And before the Astartes could ready themselves, from the frozen darkness lumbered a Sentinel walker.
Many of you have seen such a thing, and perhaps even fought alongside them, for they are commonly used by the armies of the Imperial Guard. This, however, was different. Its two legs were reinforced with sturdy armour plates and its cab, in which its traitor driver cowered, was as heavily plated as a tank. It had been made with techniques forgotten to the masters of the forge worlds today, and it bore as its weapon a pair of autocannon. This was no mere spindly scouting machine! This was an engine of destruction.
“Despair not!” shouted the headstrong Hrothgar as this monster came into view. “You shall not have to face this machine, old man, wizened and decrepit as you are! I shall ensure this traitor’s eyes are on me alone. All you need do, venerable one, is fire that missile launcher of yours!”
Daegalan had it in mind to scold the Blood Claw for his insolence, but it was not the time for such things.
Hrothgar ran into view of the Sentinel. He fired off shots from his bolt pistol, and the Sentinel turned to hunt him through the valley’s shadows. But Hrothgar was fast and valiant, and even as the Sentinel’s mighty guns opened fire he sprinted from rock to rock, from flinty fissure to deep shadow, and every shell spat by the Sentinel’s guns was wasted against unyielding stone. At that time it happened a flurry of snow was blown up by Mother Fenris’ icy breath and Hrothgar ventured closer still, diving between the metal feet of the Sentinel, knowing that he was too fast and his movements too unpredictable for the machine’s pilot to fire upon him with accuracy.
So infuriated was the pilot of the Sentinel that he forgot, as lesser soldiers than Astartes are wont to do, the true threat he was facing. For Daegalan the Long Fang had indeed taken aim with his missile launcher, the only weapon the Astartes had between them that might pierce the machine’s armour. With a roar the missile fired, and with a vicious bark it exploded. The rear of the Sentinel was torn clear away, and the pilot mortally wounded. Exposed to the cold night, the blood from his many wounds froze. But he did not have long to suffer this fate, for Hrothgar the Blood Claw climbed up the legs of the Sentinel and tore out the traitor’s spine with his bare hands.
Because as we know, Space Marines can move faster than bullets, and all non-space Marines have the same accuracy and can't hit them when moving, regardless of all other factors (range, rate of fire, etc.) Except for all those examples I provided, which are of cases where Space Marines clearly are taking huge quantities of fire for some odd reason even though space Marines are supposed to be super mobile and never stand still for that sort of punishment...
Once again, he’s not dead.
Which makes no effing difference. Armor penetrated, Space MArine taken out. Since when do your interpretations of evidence take precedence over everyone else?
I never claimed or implied that the entire company had autocannons. It would be reasonable to assume that a company-sized formation would posses quite a lot of supper weapons?
YEah but there aren't going to be that many. And by your logic the space marines should be so fast and agile they shouldn't be getting many hits either. So how is it autocannon fire is taking them down, again? According to you this should be impossible.
I am not saying they ignore physics, it is just apparent to me that Astartes are tough enough to absorb the momentum.
... Absorb momentum? Where does the momentum go, pray tell?
Because you didn’t really provide any indication as to why the quote was good or not.
Because you're the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't count as valid evidence? Says who?
So in other words you can’t confirm that he missed.
Of course not. It's impossible to prove a negative. But then again its also dishonest to demand that someone must prove it was other than you claim it was, unless your opinions gained some weight of canon by GW fiat I wasn't aware of.
Seaward wrote:Different writers write Space Marine tactics differently. ADB with Raven Guard? Yeah, those guys will out-think any Guardsman around. Graham McNeill with Ultramarines? Maybe not so much.
This. Writers have a vast threshold of creative license to make their interpretations of a Space Marines abilities and survivability. Every writer, however, maintains that Space Marines are head and shoulders above a regular guardsmen.
To make another comparison; Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are head and shoulders above small arms fire (which Space Marines simply shrug off with impunity), so in respects to the comparison, the heavy weapons and munitions should be able to down a Space Marine with reasonable difficulty.
If the gunners behind the weapon have the accuracy to do so, is entirely a different matter all together and should really have no bearing on this argument, which is off-topic to say the least.
Melissia wrote:It just takes a precise application of high caliber explosive ammunition. The Imperial guard does this all the time.
No, it does not just take a precise application of force. They need to make sure they aren't detected and evaded or destroyed, this is a lot harder than hiding behind a bush or under a cardboard box. Every Astartes comes equipped with highly attuned autosenses aimed at preventing...Ambush? They need to avoid thermal detection, be utterly quiet and motionless, have next to no scent, ect, ect.
Also, their ambush need to be perfectly executed. Killing one Astartes is no mean feat and they need to wipe the squad almost instantly to succeed. The bolter destroys humans in one hit. It explodes inside them and rips them to pieces. A lasgun, on the other hand, needs many shots to fell an Astartes...Barring the legendary, immaculate single shot. One Astartes is more than capable of wiping out a squad of guardsmen in close quarters once he has identified the threat even if his entire squad has just died around him. "And they shall know no fear"?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
no its not. Its a good thing that I never argued they cna easily penetrate, is it? Do you like constructing strawmen, or what?
You did, or rather you implied it. You claimed they tear through armor, that speaks of easy penetration to me.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Yeah so? We have examples of Ragnar blackmane surviving a heavy stubber round ot the temple. Should we assume Space Marine skin is kevlar now?
Of course. If it’s written down then it’s indicative of their capacities. I see no reason to doubt said source.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you contraidcted yourself?
How?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
You claim that its impossible to damage an Astartes with heavy weapons unless he's standing still, yet you also claim that most of my examples are precisely that (where Astartes get hit by large quantities of weapons fire - which you claim shouldn't be happening because of how agile the Astartes are.)
Because in most of those cases the Astartes are standing still or in confined spaces. If they were moving the it would be unlikely they would be hit.
So, no contradiction.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Nevermind that you're basically claiming they are immune to bolter fire for much the same reasons - unless we are supposed to believe bolters are more powerful than heavy bolters.
I never claimed they are immune to bolter fire. Nice to construct strawmen isn’t it?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Which makes no effing difference. Armor penetrated, Space MArine taken out.
It makes all the difference, he lost only a kidney.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because as we know, Space Marines can move faster than bullets, and all non-space Marines have the same accuracy and can't hit them when moving, regardless of all other factors (range, rate of fire, etc.)
You don’t have to be faster than the bullets, just the aim.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Except for all those examples I provided, which are of cases where Space Marines clearly are taking huge quantities of fire for some odd reason even though space Marines are supposed to be super mobile and never stand still for that sort of punishment...
That’s either in confined spaces or the Marine is distracted or simple Plot induced stupidity.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
YEah but there aren't going to be that many.
Proof?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And by your logic the space marines should be so fast and agile they shouldn't be getting many hits either. So how is it autocannon fire is taking them down, again? According to you this should be impossible.
If it’s an entire company’s worth of autocannons then by sheer weight of fire some must hit. Notice only a few were hit.
So my point still stands.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
... Absorb momentum? Where does the momentum go, pray tell?
Into the body of course. It just wouldn’t be enough to affect an Astarte, like my kid cousin charging into my knee and bouncing off.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't count as valid evidence? Says who?
I’m not the sole arbiter, it’s just that your examples and arguments have flaws in them I point out.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Of course not. It's impossible to prove a negative. But then again its also dishonest to demand that someone must prove it was other than you claim it was, unless your opinions gained some weight of canon by GW fiat I wasn't aware of.
Not at all. I’m simply clarifying each piece of evidence.
Thank you for ignoring most of my post and the context of my sentences.
Please take the time to read through the entirety and construct a response to all of my points or, at least, some of my points in context. It makes for a much better debate.
BrainDeleted wrote:Thank you for ignoring most of my post and the context of my sentences.
You're welcome. I didn't consider them particularly relevant.
And you realize of course that ATSKNF doesn't mean they're mad berserkers, right? This is why in-game the special rule combat tactics allows them to retreat by choice. If they think it's the best decision. Upon getting ambushed to the point where half their squad is incapacitated, it's safe to assume that they'd realize that staying in that area is a bad idea, not out of fear, but out of a simple decision of "hey, we just got effed up, we should move to more defensible ground".
No, that isn't a safe assumption. Once ten guardsmen have revealed themselves, they are not much of a threat to the marines, especially in close proximity where a marine is at his absolute peak of combat proficiency. Point, shoot, apply force (Sound familiar?). Sounds logical to me. Besides, if they're surrounded as in most proper ambushes, retreat isn't viable. I didn't say anything about them being berserk at all though quite a few marines would fall into that category. Please don't put words in my mouth.
You ignored everything I said about how they would go about ambushing marines. Sure, ignoring all of that and assuming they've achieved complete surprise greatly increases their chances of success...But what's the point of debating that? 90% of the effort has to go towards achieving that surprise.
BrainDeleted wrote:No, that isn't a safe assumption. Once ten guardsmen have revealed themselves, they are not much of a threat to the marines
... unless of course they give the marines reason to believe they're just a diversion, or just the tip of the iceberg.
Where there's ten guardsmen there's bound to be a few thousand more not too far away. The Marines would realize that the best solution is to reconnoiter rather than blindly press forward and potentially get slaughtered.
Really, you also make a bunch of asinine assumptions. "Well the marines are going to detect this and counter it without fail." to everything. It's like listening to a kid saying "omg batman would beat everyone because he's always prepared for everything everywhere everytime!" But even batman got his back broken by Bane (oh sure he got better).
Ok? Now it's an ambush backed by a regiment. How'd they do that again?
I'm trying to have something like a constructive debate. I never said Marines are infallible, I am just stating traits that are commonly attributed to them. Every marine comes equipped with power armor. All power armor has autosenses. Autosenses are good at...Sensing things? I'm sorry if that makes you angry.
You are the one cherry picking at my posts and there is no need to be rude.
Melissia wrote:No it doesn't. It just needs to go off well enough that the marines would prefer to tactically retreat over continuing to advance.
Actually, you said "any level of competent planning," would allow an Imperial Guard squad to defeat a Space Marine squad. You've refused to walk back from that quote a couple times.
That means, of course, you firmly believe the bare minimum level of command competency in an Imperial Guard squad would defeat any Space Marine squad out there.
As wild-ass, evidence-free, hilariously biased assertions go, that ranks up there.
BrainDeleted wrote:Thank you for ignoring most of my post and the context of my sentences.
You're welcome. I didn't consider them particularly relevant.
And you realize of course that ATSKNF doesn't mean they're mad berserkers, right? This is why in-game the special rule combat tactics allows them to retreat by choice. If they think it's the best decision. Upon getting ambushed to the point where half their squad is incapacitated, it's safe to assume that they'd realize that staying in that area is a bad idea, not out of fear, but out of a simple decision of "hey, we just got effed up, we should move to more defensible ground".
Which of course could also be trapped.
'Retreating when it's the best decision' is not the same as 'scatter randomly into a minefield'. You also initially said that a single marine is killed in the initial trap. Unless it's a squad of two, I can't really see why they'd instantly run away after (assumedly) getting through the minefield, avoiding the fire of an entire regiment and the artillery they have backing them.
BrainDeleted wrote:Ok? Now it's an ambush backed by a regiment. How'd they do that again?
For someone who complained about people not reading, you're really not doing a good job following your own advice...
Yes, most of the effort of an ambush does go in to making sure you get the element of surprise. So... just like real life Even human vs human or hell human vs animal the most important part of an ambush is... making sure you aren't detected until it's time to spring the ambush.
As for "autosenses", let's look at what those actually do now, shall we?
Deathwatch RPG lists the autosenses bonus as-- darksight (night vision), Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness), immunity to flashbangs and stun grenades, and helps them slightly with aiming (they can aim at a specific body part faster than un-augmented, as opposed to simply shooting at someone).
Of these, only augmented aiming speed is something that the Marine helmet has over, say, a stormtrooper helmet. The Marine's own natural senses are more of a help to them, especially for chapters such as Space Wolves.
BrainDeleted wrote: Every Astartes comes equipped with highly attuned autosenses aimed at preventing...Ambush? They need to avoid thermal detection, be utterly quiet and motionless, have next to no scent, ect, ect.
Not quite. An Astartes Autosenses merely enhances his senses. Ultimately the Space Marine must act in the way he interprets his surroundings, so he chooses to assume if there's an ambush or not.
If his autosenses were on par with that of a machine, Genestealers wouldn't have their nasty reputations of surprise on Space Hulks no?
On the same subject, an ambush to disarm a Space Marine squad has to be, regardless of size, quite heavy. Charged explosives and Autocannons would definately surprise Marines, but you better keep an eye on all of those Marines still standing.
Melissia wrote:
Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness),
So your claiming that humans have the same tactical awareness and senss of a Space Marine?
Melissia wrote:
Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness),
So your claiming that humans have the same tactical awareness and senss of a Space Marine?
Melissia wrote:
Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness),
So your claiming that humans have the same tactical awareness and senss of a Space Marine?
No.
I said veteran guardsmen can. That is, combat veterans whom have been in, survived, and probably won many engagements and possibly wars. A random guardsmen recently out of boot camp isn't likely to have that level of tactical awareness barring some stroke of luck.
Uh huh. Except for that one bit where I pointed out an example from Fallen Angels where a heavy bolter round survives, or where I was talking about how real life armour works for protection (which would give more than ample explanations as to how armor can provide protection in some cases but not others, as well as explaining how a bolter can damage power armor even if it shows resilience against heavy bolters.)
Of course. If it’s written down then it’s indicative of their capacities. I see no reason to doubt said source.
... you're seriously arguing that unarmored space marines can tank HMG fire now?
How?
By claiming on one hand a Space Marine moves so fast its nigh impossible to hit them with concentrated heavy weapons fire... yet at the same time dismissing my examples as cases where Space Marines are hit with concentrated heavy weapons fire. Do you really need that pointed out?
Because in most of those cases the Astartes are standing still or in confined spaces. If they were moving the it would be unlikely they would be hit.
So, no contradiction.
Except you claim a Space Marine would never do that. Remember? They're supposed to be so agile that it's virtually impossible to hit them. You yourself said it was silly for a Space Marine to stand still.
I never claimed they are immune to bolter fire. Nice to construct strawmen isn’t it?
Sure it is. You have claimed on one hand it needs sustained, concentrated fire for heavy weapons to breach a Space Marine's armor, and on another that they would be constantly moving to avoid that. As you yourself claimed "why would a space marine stand still?"
It makes all the difference, he lost only a kidney.
No he didn't. Read again:
Force Commander Lamnos lay in a coma, his primary heart and his oolitic kidney ruptured by an autocannon blast..
One heart down, one kidney down, and he's in an effing COMA. C-O-M-A. I don't think I need to tell you what a coma is or what it means, do I?
You don’t have to be faster than the bullets, just the aim.
You do realize that there is an element of chance to gunfire, right? They have to spin the rounds via rifling or other means to give it a semblance of stability, as well as the drop in gravity, etc. They can predict the aim, they can out react it, but it does not guarantee they will be missed. Hence why I mentioned things like oh, rate of fire.
That’s either in confined spaces or the Marine is distracted or simple Plot induced stupidity.
Oh good, you're invoking the "it doesn't count because I say it does" excuse, like you did with that outlier crap. Please tell me you are not deliberately being dishonest by cherrypicking what evidence is valid and is not.
Proof?
Because there's a limit to how many heavy weapons a company can field? I mean you could probably assume they went with nothing but autocannon but how likely is that? Going by the 5th ed codex there's up to five infantry squads (each of which can have a heavy weapon) and 5 heavy weapons squads.) That's what, 60 weapons possible for a company? We could call it a hundred if you still think I'm being unfair, but I'm also ignoring the fact they had missile launchers.
Considering your claims about space marine agility, it doesn't seem likely that many hits would land because "a space marine wouldn't stnad still and would be nearly impossible to hit".
Maybe you'd like to assume that an entire company's worth of autocannons were just focused on a handful of men for some odd reason (its not like the rest of Ventri's forces could be a threat, after all.)
If it’s an entire company’s worth of autocannons then by sheer weight of fire some must hit. Notice only a few were hit.
So my point still stands.
Oh? And how many autocannons are you claiming they have? Since you demanded proof, I want to see some from you. And I suppose you are also claiming they ignored the vast majority of marines to concentrate on just a few guys with all their heavy weapons.
Into the body of course. It just wouldn’t be enough to affect an Astarte, like my kid cousin charging into my knee and bouncing off.
If your cousin bounces off of you, they're not transferring all their momentum into the target. You're basically arguing LEarchus suffered glancing hits that ricochet off.
Oh and just so you know, a 25-30MM autocannon IRL has around 150-200 kg*m/s (for a 25mm like you might find on some military vehicles) to ~300-400 kg*m/s (for a 30mm autocannon like the A-10's avenger cannon.) Care to tell me how much you think a Space Marine weighs if they can absorb all that without even budging? Especially since they're taking hits from an airborne target from behind?
[quoteI’m not the sole arbiter, it’s just that your examples and arguments have flaws in them I point out.
No you claim they have flaws, and then pretend you've dealt with them. I could do the same and declare your examples outliers with just about the same effect.
Not at all. I’m simply clarifying each piece of evidence.
Because your judgement on these matters is so much superiro to everyone else? Why should your opinion have greatre weight than others? I ask you this because you're the one who insists my evidence must either be ignored, flawed, or an outlier based on your own judgement.
If you're going to keep insisting that the only opinion which has any validity is your own, there's no point arguing this because you won't listen to any other opinion BUT your own.
Space hulks and gene stealers bring about a whole slew of problems that guardsman and a typical, terrestrial battle field don't. I am not trying to say Marines are immune to ambush. I am trying to say that it is (very) unlikely that in a squad vs. squad scenario, a squad of veteran guardsman would be able to achieve a successful ambush against a squad of marines. That is, surprise them and kill them or force a retreat.
Melissia wrote:For someone who complained about people not reading, you're really not doing a good job following your own advice...
Yes, most of the effort of an ambush does go in to making sure you get the element of surprise. So... just like real life Even human vs human or hell human vs animal the most important part of an ambush is... making sure you aren't detected until it's time to spring the ambush.
As for "autosenses", let's look at what those actually do now, shall we?
Deathwatch RPG lists the autosenses bonus as-- darksight (night vision), Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness), immunity to flashbangs and stun grenades, and helps them slightly with aiming (they can aim at a specific body part faster than un-augmented, as opposed to simply shooting at someone).
Of these, only augmented aiming speed is something that the Marine helmet has over, say, a stormtrooper helmet. The Marine's own natural senses are more of a help to them, especially for chapters such as Space Wolves.
Maybe I'll have to reread your posts a few times, I haven't seen where you described the scenario that allows veteran guardsmen (Or are we talking stormtroopers now?) achieve a successful ambush against a squad of Marines but I guess I'm a little late to the party in this thread...Is it on one of the earlier pages?
I'm using autosenses as a catchall term for a Marines enhanced awareness, somewhat incorrectly, I guess. It's less cumbersome than decades of battle field experience, extremely intense training, enhanced biological senses that are enhanced further by power armor, and a brain completely focused (Beyond the point of what we'd consider psychopathic) on nothing but the art of war though.
All I am saying is that guardsmen would have a quite low success rate when attempting to ambush marines. These guys commonly achieve Kill : Death ratios <100:1. I'll cite sources if you want. There are some extremely outrageous ones when the fight is against regular humans. The Exorcists achieved a ratio of something like 97:1 against Daemons.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Uh huh. Except for that one bit where I pointed out an example from Fallen Angels where a heavy bolter round survives, or where I was talking about how real life armour works for protection (which would give more than ample explanations as to how armor can provide protection in some cases but not others, as well as explaining how a bolter can damage power armor even if it shows resilience against heavy bolters.)
And then for all those others bits you did imply it.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
... you're seriously arguing that unarmored space marines can tank HMG fire now?
Yes, I am.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Except you claim a Space Marine would never do that. Remember? They're supposed to be so agile that it's virtually impossible to hit them. You yourself said it was silly for a Space Marine to stand still.
It is, that is exactly why your examples are silly.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
One heart down, one kidney down, and he's in an effing COMA. C-O-M-A. I don't think I need to tell you what a coma is or what it means, do I?
Once again, he’s not dead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Sure it is. You have claimed on one hand it needs sustained, concentrated fire for heavy weapons to breach a Space Marine's armor, and on another that they would be constantly moving to avoid that. As you yourself claimed "why would a space marine stand still?"
Once again, I did not claim they were immune to bolter fire. Find me a quote of me saying that please.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
You do realize that there is an element of chance to gunfire, right? They have to spin the rounds via rifling or other means to give it a semblance of stability, as well as the drop in gravity, etc. They can predict the aim, they can out react it, but it does not guarantee they will be missed. Hence why I mentioned things like oh, rate of fire.
I would assume a Space Marine, with their enhanced cognitive abilities and senses would have a much easier time of calculating that angle than a normal human would.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Oh good, you're invoking the "it doesn't count because I say it does" excuse, like you did with that outlier crap. Please tell me you are not deliberately being dishonest by cherrypicking what evidence is valid and is not.
I’m not.
I am however pointing out the flaws in your argument and examples.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because there's a limit to how many heavy weapons a company can field? I mean you could probably assume they went with nothing but autocannon but how likely is that? Going by the 5th ed codex there's up to five infantry squads (each of which can have a heavy weapon) and 5 heavy weapons squads.) That's what, 60 weapons possible for a company? We could call it a hundred if you still think I'm being unfair, but I'm also ignoring the fact they had missile launchers.
How does this contradict my point again?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Considering your claims about space marine agility, it doesn't seem likely that many hits would land because "a space marine wouldn't stnad still and would be nearly impossible to hit".
I’m pretty sure sixty autocannons could put out quite a bit of lead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Maybe you'd like to assume that an entire company's worth of autocannons were just focused on a handful of men for some odd reason (its not like the rest of Ventri's forces could be a threat, after all.)
Again, it’s quite a bit of fire put out.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Oh? And how many autocannons are you claiming they have? Since you demanded proof, I want to see some from you.
I don’t believe I ever gave a concrete number on the amount of autocannons. But since Pavonis is an industrial planet I would assume they are well-equipped.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And I suppose you are also claiming they ignored the vast majority of marines to concentrate on just a few guys with all their heavy weapons.
Not at all.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
If your cousin bounces off of you, they're not transferring all their momentum into the target. You're basically arguing LEarchus suffered glancing hits that ricochet off.
So if my cousin charges directly into my knee that’s a glancing hit?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Oh and just so you know, a 25-30MM autocannon IRL has around 150-200 kg*m/s (for a 25mm like you might find on some military vehicles) to ~300-400 kg*m/s (for a 30mm autocannon like the A-10's avenger cannon.)
After seeing that stream of technobabble I have no idea what you just said. Plain English please.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Care to tell me how much you think a Space Marine weighs if they can absorb all that without even budging? Especially since they're taking hits from an airborne target from behind?
Evidently as the example shows, all of it.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
No you claim they have flaws, and then pretend you've dealt with them.
No, I point out the flaws and I deal with them.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
I could do the same and declare your examples outliers with just about the same effect.
You could and I would point out why you are wrong.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because your judgement on these matters is so much superiro to everyone else.
Never said that. I just point out the obvious.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Why should your opinion have greatre weight than others
Why should it?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because your judgement on these matters is so much superiro to everyone else? Why should your opinion have greatre weight than others? I ask you this because you're the one who insists my evidence must either be ignored, flawed, or an outlier based on your own judgement.
Based on common sense.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
If you're going to keep insisting that the only opinion which has any validity is your own, there's no point arguing this because you won't listen to any other opinion BUT your own.
So in other words you are going to ragequit then right?
BrainDeleted wrote:These guys commonly achieve Kill : Death ratios <100:1
So basically like the Valhallans against Tyranids and Orks in the Cain series. Or Gaunt's Ghosts against superior equipped grenadiers who turned against them. Or any guard unit really-- when led by a competent commander.
The Imperial Guard wins more often than not. If they didn't, the Imperium wouldn't exist. Not saying they'd kill the marines every time in such an ambush, only that it's certainly a distinct possibility, and that no, marines are not omniscient, infallible gods of the battlefield like people in this thread constantly say. Movie marines are a lie.
Melissia wrote:
Heightened Senses (Marines already have this without the armor; it's certainly helpful to be sure... buuut veteran guardsmen can have basically the same level of tactical awareness),
So your claiming that humans have the same tactical awareness and senss of a Space Marine?
No.
I said veteran guardsmen can. That is, combat veterans whom have been in, survived, and probably won many engagements and possibly wars. A random guardsmen recently out of boot camp isn't likely to have that level of tactical awareness barring some stroke of luck.
And chances are you average Space Marine wil still be older and more experianced. And being a veteran does not improve your sight, hearing or smell.
Melissia wrote:
BrainDeleted wrote:These guys commonly achieve Kill : Death ratios <100:1
So basically like the Valhallans against Tyranids and Orks in the Cain series-- or any guard unit really, when led by a competent commander.
Gree wrote:Proof that they achieve said kill rates?
They came off relatively unscathed despite fighting off a Tyranid horde in the fourth Cain book. They destroyed entire swaths of heretics with almost no casualties in the first Cain book. In Caves of Ice, they did much the same, destroying tons of Orks and even a gargant with very few casualties-- and that was before Cain set off his little fireworks show. In the second (I think?) Gaunt's Ghost book, a segment of Ghosts were left behind as rear guard, and fought off a group of heavily armored grenadiers to a very high kill ratio before they were overtaken. In plenty of other Ghosts books, they take on far larger numbers and still manage to achieve victory without crippling losses in most cases (though their constant wars are wearing their numbers down).
BrainDeleted wrote:These guys commonly achieve Kill : Death ratios <100:1
So basically like the Valhallans against Tyranids and Orks in the Cain series. Or Gaunt's Ghosts against superior equipped grenadiers who turned against them. Or any guard unit really-- when led by a competent commander.
The Imperial Guard wins more often than not. If they didn't, the Imperium wouldn't exist. Not saying they'd kill the marines every time in such an ambush, only that it's certainly a distinct possibility.
The problem with that is that Marines achieve completely insane kill ratios against the 'Nids and Orks. I should specify that I'm saying against humans. What ratios do Valhallans net against Marines? That's more important to the topic at hand. Who cares how they do against hordes. The Guard wins a lot of their battles. Marines win most of their battles or else their chapter ceases to exists. The Imperium continues to exist thanks to both forces though one could argue that it only began in the first place largely because of the efforts of Marines.
Gree wrote:Proof that they achieve said kill rates?
They came off relatively unscathed despite fighting off a Tyranid horde in the fourth Cain book. They destroyed entire swaths of heretics with almost no casualties in the first Cain book. In Caves of Ice, they did much the same, destroying tons of Orks and even a gargant with very few casualties-- and that was before Cain set off his little fireworks show.
Proof? Give me casualty rates of each engagement and the size of the forces they went up against and the tactical conditions.
BrainDeleted wrote:I should specify that I'm saying against humans. What ratios do Valhallans net against Marines? That's more important to the topic at hand.
In the third Cain book it was seven Marines killed, zero Valhallans lost (one more was killed by the PDF using, I think, a lascannon, then gibbed with a couple krak missiles just to be sure-- but how many of the PDF the marine took down first is not stated).
Melissia wrote:In the third Cain book it was seven Marines killed, zero Valhallans lost (one more was killed by the PDF using, I think, a lascannon, then gibbed with a couple krak missiles just to be sure-- but how many of the PDF the marine took down first is not stated).
You are taking that out of context. The World Eaters were mostly fighting against the Slaanishi cultists and the last of them were killed by the daemon at the end.
The Vahallans only fought two as I recall, one was enagaged by Cain and distracted so Jurgen could kill him and the other was already badly wounded.
BrainDeleted wrote:You're entirely unreasonable to the point of trolling, Gree. She gave you examples, don't expect numbers. Those are rare in fluff.
She made a claim I expect her to back it up. The examples were vague and out of context.
Melissia wrote:url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts#As_logical_fallacy]No, I will not fall for that logical fallacy.[/url]
In other words you made a false claim you can't back up.
BrainDeleted wrote: I am trying to say that it is (very) unlikely that in a squad vs. squad scenario, a squad of veteran guardsman would be able to achieve a successful ambush against a squad of marines. That is, surprise them and kill them or force a retreat.
If you were to remove the (very) from that statement I would be inclined to agree. While veteran Guardsman would probably perish in most cases, Space Marines in general suffer from a dibilitating case of hubris, believing that they're enemy too weak to make it successful. But remember that Ambushes can be considered successful as a stalling tactic, so while the Marines might lose one or two Brothers, they change their pacing and overall demeanour more conservitively, which might be considered as a successfull stall.
BrainDeleted wrote:All I am saying is that guardsmen would have a quite low success rate when attempting to ambush marines. These guys commonly achieve Kill : Death ratios <100:1. I'll cite sources if you want. There are some extremely outrageous ones when the fight is against regular humans. The Exorcists achieved a ratio of something like 97:1 against Daemons.
Pretty much, however, we have two posters on opposite sides of the Space Marine spectrum. Melissa believes that Space Marines are around the equivalent of glorified Guardsmen while Gree makes them out to be unstoppable juggernauts with speed akin to the Eldar, when in reality most Marines are in that middle.
Gree wrote:But not something normall indicative of actual combat performance in normal situations.
Yeah it is. Covering fire for a flanking maneuver. Completely normal tactic. Though usually it's not a third party providing covering fire, but that's not really a relevant fact.
Gree wrote:But not something normall indicative of actual combat performance in normal situations.
Yeah it is. Covering fire for a flanking maneuver. Completely normal tactic. Though usually it's not a third party providing covering fire, but that's not really a relevant fact.
Again, the Marine was only held off by someone noted to be an exceptional individual. Not a normal indicative at all.
Gree wrote:And then for all those others bits you did imply it.
Because your judgement is utterly infallible, right?
Yes, I am.
fine you prove it.
It is, that is exactly why your examples are silly.
Because you're the infallible judge of what is and isn't proper in 40K, right?
Once again, he’s not dead.
And once again, that's because Space Marines are skilled fighters whilst in a coma right?
Once again, I did not claim they were immune to bolter fire. Find me a quote of me saying that please.
you implied it. HEy that works both ways doesnt it? Or maybe I could try "your argument is silly, therefore invalid. No wonder you find those so useful.
I would assume a Space Marine, with their enhanced cognitive abilities and senses would have a much easier time of calculating that angle than a normal human would.
And I should take your assumptions as fact why? Remember you're the one insisting my evidence is silly, act of plot, or otherwise inadmissable based on your own opinion.
Oh yes and "they get distracted in the middle of battle to the point they would stand in place long enough to get targeted by massive amounts of gunfire." I guess they're all super duper alert and reactive, but have short attention spans.
I’m not.
Funny, you seem to be arguing as if your opinions carry the weight of fact here. (EG your assumptions about the supar-predictive abilities of Space Marines.)
I am however pointing out the flaws in your argument and examples.
Because you're the infallible judge of what is right and wrong in a 40K debate, right?
How does this contradict my point again?
Because it shows you adopt the most ludicrous assumptions to prove your point? You know, like the "space marines get distracted so they can get plastered by huge quantities of gunfire" argument. I guess the Imperium creates these Marines that are super tough, fast, strong... but they forgot to give them the ability to stay focus on task and not get easily distracted, or something.
I’m pretty sure sixty autocannons could put out quite a bit of lead.
Proof?
I don’t believe I ever gave a concrete number on the amount of autocannons. But since Pavonis is an industrial planet I would assume they are well-equipped.
Again I love how you try to pass off your opinion as proof here. And this is why I keep accusing you of trying ot be an infallible arbiter of what is and isn't cannon, in case you're wondering.
Not at all.
In which case, the amount of lead per marine goes down quite a bit, wouldn't you say? Especially given your claimed super-duper bullet dodge abilities.
So if my cousin charges directly into my knee that’s a glancing hit?
.. do you even know what conservation of momentum is?
After seeing that stream of technobabble I have no idea what you just said. Plain English please.
To put it another way. 200-400 kg*m/s of momentum would impart a velocity of between 2.5-5 m/s to a 80 kg person. In rough terms? imagine getting tackled by a guy running at oh 10-12 mph. Considering how large and bulky Space Marine armor is, how many hits like that do you think a Space Marine can take and not crush someone underneath them?
Evidently as the example shows, all of it.
So.. you just cited the same quote that is contention as proof you are right? Yet again you reinforce my belief you think you're some infallible arbiter here. And you're not convicing me that you're at all interested in debating fairly.
No, I point out the flaws and I deal with them.
No, you haven't. You invent reasons why they don't apply by your own judgement and then treat that as having "dealt with them." Again this is precisely why I keep accusing you of being "infallible arbiter". You keep trying to pass off your opinion as if it were canon fact. And at the same time, dismissing your opponents arguments as invalid.. because you say so. Yeah that sounds perfectly fair to me!
You could and I would point out why you are wrong.
Because you're infallibly correct, right?
Never said that. I just point out the obvious.
How is that different from claiming that your opinion is clearly the right one because you think it is? "Obvious" does not constitute "fact", although there are lots of people in America who think that.
Why should it?
I asked you. You're the one treating your opinion as fact after all.
Based on common sense.
Whose definition of common sense, pray tell? Yours? Again you point to your own opinion as being the solely accurate benchmark for how things should and shouldn't go. and this is correct because.. you say its common sense. Again, how is this not "infallible arbiter" behaviour?
So in other words you are going to ragequit then right?
I could. Or I could just go on pointing out that you keep insisting you're infallible!
KplKeegan wrote:Melissa believes that Space Marines are around the equivalent of glorified Guardsmen
No I don't, and I've already specifically said otherwise several times in this thread, so screw you.
My position is that "they are not infallible gods, they're supremely competent soldiers with biological enhancements".
Yet Veteran Guardsmen can achieve the same level of sensual acuity of a genetically engineered super human that was miticulously designed for War from his DNA up, whose senses have been deliberately enhanced beyound normal human parameters?
KplKeegan wrote:Yet Veteran Guardsmen can achieve the same level of sensual acuity of a genetically engineered super human that was miticulously designed for War from his DNA up, whose senses have been deliberately enhanced beyound normal human parameters?
Yes.
Because "normal human parameters" does not equate to "beyond the highest human parameters". Certainly I did not deny that Marines have an advantage. Their biology is their primary advantage, and their armor a secondary one, over non-augmented soldiers.
And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.
Which means humans can possibly match them in those areas. Or exceed them even (especially in areas of raw intelligence and charisma, which the Marines do not have enhancements for but instead make use of hypnotherapy to enhance, which humans can also undergo).
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because your judgement is utterly infallible, right?
Not infallible, but generally correct.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
fine you prove it.
Okay, we have the example of Ragnar taking a heavy stubber round to the head.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the infallible judge of what is and isn't proper in 40K, right?
No, I just have common sense on my side.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And once again, that's because Space Marines are skilled fighters whilst in a coma right?
Once again, he is not dead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
you implied it. HEy that works both ways doesnt it?
No I did not. Give me a quote were I implied it.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And I should take your assumptions as fact why?
Because we already have statements to that effect. So it’s not an assumption.
The 5th Edition Codex says a Marine has ‘’battle skills and faculty of reason that far surpass any mortal man.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Remember you're the one insisting my evidence is silly, act of plot, or otherwise inadmissable based on your own opinion.
I have already pointed out the reasons. It’s not my fault if you can’t recognize that.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Oh yes and "they get distracted in the middle of battle to the point they would stand in place long enough to get targeted by massive amounts of gunfire." I guess they're all super duper alert and reactive, but have short attention spans.
Do you understand what plot-induced stupidity is?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're the infallible judge of what is right and wrong in a 40K debate, right?
Nope, never claimed that.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because it shows you adopt the most ludicrous assumptions to prove your point?
No, I only adopt what GW puts down.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Proof?
5th Edtiion Guard Codex.
‘’Autocannons fire large caliber, high velocity shells at a prodigious rate.’’
Take one autocannon and multiple it by a few dozen and you have quite a storm of lead.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again I love how you try to pass off your opinion as proof here.
When did I claim it was proof?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And this is why I keep accusing you of trying ot be an infallible arbiter of what is and isn't cannon, in case you're wondering.
Where at all in that quote did I claim I was an infallible arbiter?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
In which case, the amount of lead per marine goes down quite a bit, wouldn't you say? Especially given your claimed super-duper bullet dodge abilities.
Why would we have any reason to doubt they are not well-equipped?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
.. do you even know what conservation of momentum is?
Not sure how this is relevant.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
To put it another way. 200-400 kg*m/s of momentum would impart a velocity of between 2.5-5 m/s to a 80 kg person. In rough terms? imagine getting tackled by a guy running at oh 10-12 mph. Considering how large and bulky Space Marine armor is, how many hits like that do you think a Space Marine can take and not crush someone underneath them?
Going by Nightbringer a good number evidently.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
So.. you just cited the same quote that is contention as proof you are right? Yet again you reinforce my belief you think you're some infallible arbiter here. And you're not convicing me that you're at all interested in debating fairly.
So in other words you are content to simply ignore examples then?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
No, you haven't. You invent reasons why they don't apply by your own judgement and then treat that as having "dealt with them."
No, I just point out logical reason why they don’t apply.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again this is precisely why I keep accusing you of being "infallible arbiter". You keep trying to pass off your opinion as if it were canon fact.
No I do not. Show me where I’ve done that.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And at the same time, dismissing your opponents arguments as invalid.. because you say so. Yeah that sounds perfectly fair to me!
Finally you come to your senses
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're infallibly correct, right?
Never claimed that.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
How is that different from claiming that your opinion is clearly the right one because you think it is? "Obvious" does not constitute "fact", although there are lots of people in America who think that.
Then it’s a good thing I’m not expressing my opinion but rather facts and reasonable conclusions.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
I asked you. You're the one treating your opinion as fact after all.
Not at all.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Whose definition of common sense, pray tell? Yours?
What the average person would consider common sense.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again you point to your own opinion as being the solely accurate benchmark for how things should and shouldn't go. and this is correct because.. you say its common sense. Again, how is this not "infallible arbiter" behaviour?
Because I never pointed to my opinion as being the sole accurate benchmark of things?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
I could. Or I could just go on pointing out that you keep insisting you're infallible!
And I could point out that is an erroneous assumption and you hav’t offered a very good argument so far.
Give me a quote of me saying I'm an infallible arbiter. If you cannot then I will dismiss your claims as false.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:All it took was a single meltagun shot. Jurgen could probably have taken the guy even without Cain's help.
Doubtful, given how superior an Astartes is to a normal human.
Melissia wrote:And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.
Deathwatch the RPG, and Inquisitor the RPG. The only (ONLY) insurmountable advantage a marine outside of power armor has over a human are his strength and toughness bonuses. Adepts and techpriests are at the same XP levels smarter, scum are more charismatic, psykers have stronger willpower, etc. The marine's power armor provides another huge advantage, because of its high quality combined with the black carapace, making Marines easily capable of destroying unprepared acolytes, but prepared acolytes can do a lot of damage or even win over an equal number of marines.
As an aside, compare these:
Spoiler:
Space Wolf pg84 wrote:With a roar of incoherent fury Strybjorn threw himself forward, bringing the blade arcing down towards the sergeant's unprotected head. Given the weapon's weight and Strybjorn's obvious strength and speed if it connected there was no way the sergeant could survive. And it seemed to be about to connect. The blade moved through a whistling arc and the sergeant made no attempt to deflect it or get out of the way. Then suddenly, just as it seemed his skull would be smashed, Hakon was no longer there. He simply stepped back and the blade passed through where he had been less than a tenth of a heartbeat before
Traitor's Hand pg31 wrote:To no one's suprise except Asmar and Beije, their regimental champion was promptly and informally challeneged to an impromptu bout the next time he wandered into the recreation deck. I have to repor t with a certain degree of satisfaction that he was subsequently pounded flat by Corporal MAgot, a cheerfully sociopathic young woman who barely came up to his chin. (Which made little difference, as it only took her about a tenth of a second to bring it down to the level of her knee.)
The former is a marine's reaction speed, the latter is a veteran guardsman's reaction speed.
Melissia wrote:Deathwatch the RPG, and Inquisitor the RPG.
As an aside, compare these:
Spoiler:
Space Wolf pg84 wrote:With a roar of incoherent fury Strybjorn threw himself forward, bringing the blade arcing down towards the sergeant's unprotected head. Given the weapon's weight and Strybjorn's obvious strength and speed if it connected there was no way the sergeant could survive. And it seemed to be about to connect. The blade moved through a whistling arc and the sergeant made no attempt to deflect it or get out of the way. Then suddenly, just as it seemed his skull would be smashed, Hakon was no longer there. He simply stepped back and the blade passed through where he had been less than a tenth of a heartbeat before
Traitor's Hand pg31 wrote:To no one's suprise except Asmar and Beije, their regimental champion was promptly and informally challeneged to an impromptu bout the next time he wandered into the recreation deck. I have to repor t with a certain degree of satisfaction that he was subsequently pounded flat by Corporal MAgot, a cheerfully sociopathic young woman who barely came up to his chin. (Which made little difference, as it only took her about a tenth of a second to bring it down to the level of her knee.)
The former is a marine's reaction speed, the latter is a veteran guardsman's reaction speed.
What makes you think the Marine was even trying? We have a mircosecond reaction feat for Ragnar.
“As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.” / The Space Wolf Omnibus, p.269 - **
And then this:
“Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.
But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.” / Age of Darkness, p.163 - **
“They came out from behind the trees around her, two, then three, then five, all told: five primuls in a circle around her, their eyes like murder for what she had done to their kin.
They threw themselves at her.
For many years afterwards, for the rest of her life, in fact, Perdet Suiton Antoni often wondered how none of them heard him coming. He was just there, suddenly. How could something that big move so fast and so silently, and appear without notice? Between the moment when the primuls began to spring and the moment when they would have fallen upon her, the giant appeared and interposed himself between her and the foul, pouncing creatures. It was almost as if he had stopped the flow of time and edited himself into that particular frame of it.
What followed lasted about three seconds.
The giant had his combat shield locked on his left arm and his short, heavy sword in his right fist. As he arrived, he was swinging the shield out, and smashed it flat into the nearest, leaping primul, shattering bones and deflecting the thing away. Wheeling, he hacked his sword clean through the neck and shoulder of the second, casting out a shower of dark red blood, and then ripped backwards low, cutting through the corpse's thighs even as it toppled, so that the whole mass of the primul folded into a collapsed heap. The third, coming in at the giant's left flank, held some kind of pistol weapon, an ugly, spiky device that spat hard, sharp bullets of buzzing metal. The giant turned, raising his left forearm upright from the elbow, and guarded his face with the combat shield in time to switch the buzzing projectiles away. They struck the shield with loud, angry cracks. One embedded itself there. Another bounced off and decapitated a nearby sapling. As the third bullet hit, the giant deftly tilted his arm very slightly, and ricocheted it off sideways straight into the face of the fourth primul. The creature's head split like a blood-fruit and the primul was savagely thumped backwards, off the ground, its legs wide. It landed, spread-eagled, on its back.
Before the third primul could fire its pistol again, the giant whipped his right arm over and threw his sword like a lance. It struck the primul through the chest, lifting it off its feet with the force of the throw, and impaled it to an olive tree's trunk, its feet dangling and twitching.
The remaining primul, wicked blades in both hands, was dancing round behind the giant. With his free right hand, the giant grabbed the heavy firearm that had been knocking at his hip on its long strap, and shot the primul twice, in the face and the chest. The double boom of the massive gun was so loud it made Antoni cry out and cover her ears. The force of the shots tore the primul apart, and slammed its mangled body across the grove. It bounced sideways off a tree trunk and fell into the bracken. Silence, except for the gurgle of leaking blood.” / Brothers of the Snake, p.63-65 - **
BrainDeleted wrote:Is it really fair to compare the stats from two wholly different books side by side? They were made by the same RPG company but still...
They are susposedly taking place in the same fictional universe so yes.
And as far as biology goes, it's raw strength and toughness where Marines are beyond anything humans can possibly reach. In everything else, they're essentially at the upper limit of human achievement.
Don't forget to mention a Space Marines extra heart, his extra lung, the glands introduced into his body that breaks down toxins and poisons that he both inhales and injests, or his extra dense bone structure, his beltcher's gland, the list continues, where ordinary Humans will never evolve those organs.
Melissia wrote:Which means humans can possibly match them in those areas.
Gree wrote:What makes you think the Marine was even trying?
Oh, the old classic fanboy standby. "He only did so badly cause he wasn't trying!"
Reminds me of the old days in grade school, listening to kids argue about their favorite comic book hero. Except we're both (I assume) full grown adults, so I'd expect better arguments.
Well, from other people anyway. I think I'm gonna go play a game instead of talking to you.
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BrainDeleted wrote:Is it really fair to compare the stats from two wholly different books side by side? They were made by the same RPG company but still...
Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).
Gree wrote:What makes you think the Marine was even trying?
Oh, the old classic fanboy standby. "He only did so badly cause he wasn't trying!"
Reminds me of the old days in grade school, listening to kids argue about their favorite comic book hero. Except we're both (I assume) full grown adults, so I'd expect better arguments.
Well, from other people anyway. I think I'm gonna go play a game instead of talking to you.
And you ignore the context of the scene (Hakon showing a rookie his place) and the other examples that give Marines far better reaction times than a tenth of a second. (One even in the same book series)
I mean, they're made for RP purposes. It would be no fun for a couple of Dark Heresy players to get shredded like so much wet cardboard by one guy playing as a Marine from Deathwatch because he was feeling randy.
BrainDeleted wrote:I mean, they're made for RP purposes. It would be no fun for ten Dark Heresy players to get shredded like so much wet cardboard by one guy playing as a Marine from Deathwatch because he was feeling randy.
My explorator killed several marines through proper application of a meltagun mechadendrite and a plasmagun...
Course she got rather shot up in the process, but she did have the advantage of also having power armor, in Dragonskin, the techpriest power armor.
Thing is, it's not impossible for a competent human to kill a marine, it never has been. It's just that ideally marines do not fight in situations where this is likely. Except in black library books.
Gree wrote:
Not infallible, but generally correct.
Except you appeal to vague concepts like common sense. Which basically amounts to.. your own infallible authority.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Okay, we have the example of Ragnar taking a heavy stubber round to the head.
There we go again. Your opinion is fact!
No, I just have common sense on my side.
It's actually the same thing, since I'm pretty sure when you say "common sense" its by how you define it. Which means.. you're claiming infallible authority.
Once again, he is not dead.
Keep telling yourself that like it matters.
No I did not. Give me a quote were I implied it.
It's implicit in the arguments you're making. It's common sense.
Because we already have statements to that effect. So it’s not an assumption.
Circular logic.
The 5th Edition Codex says a Marine has ‘’battle skills and faculty of reason that far surpass any mortal man.
Wow, that tells us alot. Not. But hey, you've got "common sense" on your side, so who needs to be precise?
I have already pointed out the reasons. It’s not my fault if you can’t recognize that.
Because you're infallible.
Do you understand what plot-induced stupidity is?
It's an excuse for you to get out of having to deal with something you don't like. Just like appealing to common sense is. Because you're infallible.
Nope, never claimed that.
Sure ya did. you appealed to common sense. Clearly you know more than anyone else.
No, I only adopt what GW puts down.
Except for the bits you dismiss as plot induced stupdiity, outliers, or generally anyhting that doesn't suit your POV, that is.
5th Edtiion Guard Codex.
Take one autocannon and multiple it by a few dozen and you have quite a storm of lead.
Wow, that proves.. nothing.
When did I claim it was proof?
common sense.
Where at all in that quote did I claim I was an infallible arbiter?
When you started dismissing other people's arguments becuaes it doesn't conform to your opinion on the basis of.. what you thought was appropriate. It was reinforced when you started invoking common sense.
Why would we have any reason to doubt they are not well-equipped?
Common sense.
Not sure how this is relevant.
Common sense.
Going by Nightbringer a good number evidently.
bzzt. Try again.
So in other words you are content to simply ignore examples then?
Hey, I'm not the one who involved excuses liek common sense or plot induced stupidity. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of matters doesn't mean I'm ignoring evidence (unlike some I could name.)
No I do not. Show me where I’ve done that.
you appealed to common sense.
Finally you come to your senses
What, that you can't carry off your argument without treating your speculation as proof? Yeah, it becme obvious pretty quickly once you started invoking common sense.
Never claimed that.
Then why did you appeal to common sense?
What the average person would consider common sense.
Define the average person. And then explain how that isn't dependent upon your judgement being accurate to be true.
Because I never pointed to my opinion as being the sole accurate benchmark of things?
You appealed to common sense.
And I could point out that is an erroneous assumption and you hav’t offered a very good argument so far.
I can say the same of you. Hey it works both ways!
Give me a quote of me saying I'm an infallible arbiter. If you cannot then I will dismiss your claims as false.
This one works as well. You're claiming that you're so correct you can just declare someone to be right and wrong in the debate. Also common sense.
And I'm going to beat you to it. I declare your claims false and I am correct, based on common sense. Therefore I no longer have to pursue this argument. I'm done
But hey, I'm sure sinc you are so infallible, you'll just take the last post to declare victory.. becaus eas we know the last guy who posts is the one whose always right. Or maybe you'll just declare I "ragequitted" or something. Up to you
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Except you appeal to vague concepts like common sense. Which basically amounts to.. your own infallible authority.
Not at all, it’s common sense.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
There we go again. Your opinion is fact!
No GW’s statement is fact, unless you are claiming Bill King never wrote that.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
It's actually the same thing, since I'm pretty sure when you say "common sense" its by how you define it. Which means.. you're claiming infallible authority.
Not at all.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
It's implicit in the arguments you're making. It's common sense.
No it is not.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because you're infallible.
Thank you for the compliment but I’m not.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Wow, that proves.. nothing.
So you ignore another GW source.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
common sense.
How is it common sense if I never claimed it was proof.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
When you started dismissing other people's arguments becuaes it doesn't conform to your opinion on the basis of.. what you thought was appropriate. It was reinforced when you started invoking common sense.
So in other words you can’t exactly provide a quite.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Common sense.
How is it common sense that a PDF regiment on an industrial world would not be well-equipped.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Common sense.
Mind explaining how?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
bzzt. Try again.
So you can’t offer a good argument evidently.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Hey, I'm not the one who involved excuses liek common sense or plot induced stupidity. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of matters doesn't mean I'm ignoring evidence (unlike some I could name.)
So in other words you are content to ignore GW examples. Arguing with you is quite impossible.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
you appealed to common sense.
……and?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Then why did you appeal to common sense?
Because we are at an impass? What is the problem with that?
Connor MacLeod wrote:
I can say the same of you. Hey it works both ways!
Can you support that with a good reason as to why you think common sense is applicable.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
This one works as well. You're claiming that you're so correct you can just declare someone to be right and wrong in the debate. Also common sense.
And you evidently cannot support your claim with an actual source.
Connor MacLeod wrote:
And I'm going to beat you to it. I declare your claims false and I am correct, based on common sense. Therefore I no longer have to pursue this argument. I'm done
But hey, I'm sure sinc you are so infallible, you'll just take the last post to declare victory.. becaus eas we know the last guy who posts is the one whose always right. Or maybe you'll just declare I "ragequitted" or something. Up to you
Okay then, concession accepted. But this is not the first time you’ve done this. You turned tail on Warseer when I pointed out the flaws in your argument.
Melissia wrote:Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).
Movie Marines are lore Marines.
How many examples would you like? Pick a number, they're out there. Discounting the bulk of Games Workshop and Black Library fluff in order to further your own agenda is...about what I've come to expect from you, now that I think about it/
GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.
This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k. Dark Heresy was also useful-- originally created by GW, it was then handed off to FFG afterwards after a convoluted series of events in its launch cycle involving multiple cancellations and un-cancellations. DH and DW are not perfect by any means as they make concessions for the game, but they ARE for the most part internally consistent, which means for comparison purposes they're generally better than Black Library.
Melissia wrote:GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.
Proof?
Melissia wrote:
This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k.
Melissia wrote:Sure, they're made to be able to rp side by side, although they admit that the Deathwatch characters are quite a few steps above DH/RT characters for the most part, especially when it comes to equipment (they actually had to tone down the Deathwatch equipment in an Errata because it was TOO powerful-- basically the original equipment was movie marine while the updated equipment is closer to lore).
Movie Marines are lore Marines.
How many examples would you like? Pick a number, they're out there. Discounting the bulk of Games Workshop and Black Library fluff in order to further your own agenda is...about what I've come to expect from you, now that I think about it/
You will probably have a hard time to find fluff where even basic marines are as tough as a hivetyrant, as skilled in combat as an eldar exarch and armed with basic weapons that can reliably penetrate a Rhino's frontarmour.
GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.
This is why Deathwatch is so useful, as it is designed (by Andy Hoare and others from GW in concert with FFG) to let you play as an actual Marine based on the lore of 40k. Dark Heresy was also useful-- originally created by GW, it was then handed off to FFG afterwards after a convoluted series of events in its launch cycle involving multiple cancellations and un-cancellations. DH and DW are not perfect by any means as they make concessions for the game, but they ARE for the most part internally consistent, which means for comparison purposes they're generally better than Black Library.
No, them being internally consistent simply means they're internally consistent, not that they're more authoritative.
Just so people stop doing it.... please stop referring to Dark Heresy, the 40k game rules, and so on. Please. You know that it has been twisted for game balance (and so that those that collect orks, tyranids and Ig doesn't have to get massive armies to be able to play). just... stop it. And, Melissia, can you please tell me what you are trying to gain by constantly saying against most people in this thread? This seems to have gone out of control.
GW admits that many of its own books are basically written as if propaganda.
Nice, this then, means that the oh so skilled sisters of battle are just a bunch of angry women in fancy armours being killed en masse by savage peasants with pitchforks with no miracles under the sun to save them (in reality) whereas in fluff (GW propaganda) they are shining, skilled bringers of death to all heretics with the Man himself standing ready to throw bucketloads of miracles upon even the weakest of them.
...as is every other army out there since all the GW boasting about them is just over exaggerated propaganda...hmm.
Sorry Mel, couldnt resist to joke with you, dont take it as a personal assault now, we both dont want to get banned from dakka now do we?
But my point is that it is hard to take written novel fluff and apply it since various authors present different opinions of "toughness" to say the marines.
Take Abnett or Counter where Astartes are treated like fumbling idiots who are dispatched with ease by paramilitary primitives and compare this to Reynolds and Bowden who picture the very same Astartes as almost godlike beings utterly immune to any threats from "mortal" humans of any kind and with authors like Kyme and Mcneil being somewhere in the middle presenting a more "realistic" approach to space marines and their "power levels".
Any fluff debate on 40k things first of all needs to agree on what fluff is usable and what is faulty or to biased.
@Melissia: You only looked at the first twelve words in his post. The very next couple of words changes what he said quite a bit. I'm not sure I agree but sheesh.
And lord, a storm's a brewin'...We're heading towards the cannon vs. non-cannon debate.
Can we stomp it out now before it grows into something no one but a MOD can control? We're using fluff and not crunch? We're using all fluff because GW is notorious for its everything and nothing is cannon nonstance?
Dark Heresy is, in many ways, better than what GW has produced.
Yes and no, the background material is far better while the power levels represented by the actual dice is way over simplified.
Things that are to powerful in the fluff are deliberatedly toned down and things that are useless in the fluff are elevated to cometiitive levels.
Why?
Because the point of dark heresy is to present a wie variety of working (competitive) gameplay where people can and will find it fun to play e v e are y t h i n g from a crossbow and spear wielding barbarian to a high tech stormtrooper and not find things to impossible.
Looking at damage output by different weapons alone grants a deep insight to this. Being hit by a bolt round is not THAT much worse then having an arrow shot at you and the damage levels of modern firearms that in reality would blow your limbs apart is almost the same as black powder muskets and bows and arrows. Again, for the reason that a player having a character that uses primitive tech should feel he still has a chance and belongs in a group consisting of a marine, inquisitor with plasma pistol and a stormtrooper.
Talking about, look at the legendary plasma pistol that can stop a terminator marine in his track and its "power levels" in DH, just like shooting a water pistol ffs so no no no and no again, dark heresy is far from being an accurate source when it comes to true fluff power levels in 40k.
Pyriel- wrote:
Take Abnett or Counter where Astartes are treated like fumbling idiots who are dispatched with ease by paramilitary primitives
The same Abnett who writes ten Astartes slaughtering two thousand dark eldar without a single loss and three Astartes slaughtering literally hundreds of Traitor Guard and xenos?
To be fair, he also has gaunt and a few ghosts killing a whole bunch of marines in a swamp, when they start off with pretty much no weapons. And yes, one gets darted to death, but they do write them as getting slammed as well, its not all one way traffic.
And one gets rolled by a guardsman with a lasgun. Just the one dude.
motyak wrote:To be fair, he also has gaunt and a few ghosts killing a whole bunch of marines in a swamp, when they start off with pretty much no weapons. And yes, one gets darted to death, but they do write them as getting slammed as well, its not all one way traffic.
And one gets rolled by a guardsman with a lasgun. Just the one dude.
And Gaunt and crew note that what they did was very unusual and they got very lucky. Plus they had the help of an entire villiage.
I did say one got darted to death. And the point of what I wrote wasn't that they always write it one way or the other. Both happens.
And the one dude didn't have a village to back him up
Perhaps you could argue the damage levels are inappropriate, but at least ,unlike GW, they're consistent barring the hilariously unbalanced non-errata'd marine equipment. GW itself is very inconsistent about these kinds of things...
motyak wrote:I did say one got darted to death. And the point of what I wrote wasn't that they always write it one way or the other. Both happens.
Again, it was an usual occurance and what we would classify as an outlier.
''Five, ''breathed Rawne ''Five of the bastards, how the feth did we manage that?''
You basically have the Ghosts sit around is disbelief wondering how they did that after the fight. It is not something that usually happens and thus we can write it off as a one-off thing.
motyak wrote:And the one dude didn't have a village to back him up
That one dude was armed with a long-las sniper rifle who fired it at almost point blank range while the Astartes got distracted.
Huh? I meant the Vitrian, didn't he kill one of the iron warriors or whatever they were in one of the omnibus'. The planet where the ghosts launched an offensive and then got cut off, along with some of the Vitrians (the guys in glass armour).
Abnett also has them being killed one shot with bolt weapons (although that is only once) and super proud and unwilling to take advice, even when they are clearly wrong
motyak wrote:Huh? I meant the Vitrian, didn't he kill one of the iron warriors or whatever they were in one of the omnibus'. The planet where the ghosts launched an offensive and then got cut off, along with some of the Vitrians (the guys in glass armour).
Said Chaos Marine had Gaunt's chainsword rammed through his chest and took multiple shots from the high-powered long-las. He was basically struggling to get to his feet when the Vitrian laucnhed a point blank las-round at close range to his head.
The point that I'm making is that they do die. You people seem so keen to say they are invincible, but they do get killed, there are just some books where it gets out of hand. But it gets equally out of hand in favour of the guardsmen in other books
I mean in places like the guard omnibus, where it has this squad of 10 catachans or however many just tear through hordes of orks and evil super-intelligent jungle (to be fair they do have marbo on their side at times...but still).
Its during the grand triumph in eisenhorn, he tops one of the marines with his bolt pistol. I wasn't meaning that as a be all end all argument, just that its there as a once off. In the same book a veteran sergeant gets torn up by grenades too, but he was real close to them so it kinda makes sense i guess.
I didn't mean the super proud thing to reflect on their durability, I just meant on marines in general, its a flaw that is included in books.
motyak wrote:I mean in places like the guard omnibus, where it has this squad of 10 catachans or however many just tear through hordes of orks and evil super-intelligent jungle (to be fair they do have marbo on their side at times...but still).
Catachans doing awesome stuff in a jungle. Gee, that's a suprise.
Ha I know, but the point was that they shouldn't have been able to do it against that many orks like they did, nor against a jungle which adapted against them at every turn. It was silly and over the top. Fun, but still silly. A bunch of pages back when someone said the focus of the book is the best fighter in the book, they had it spot on.
motyak wrote:Ha I know, but the point was that they shouldn't have been able to do it against orks like they did, it was silly and over the top. Fun, but still silly. A bunch of pages back when someone said the focus of the book is the best fighter in the book, they had it spot on.
Why should't they be able to do it against the orks as they did? They are Deathworld veterans fighting in their favorable home terrian.
Yeah that is true, they outshone the orks like no tomorrow.
It may have been a bad example, but during the battle they are dropping orks like crazy with grenades and lasguns, where the orks in the book just before in the omnibus can take lasgun shots like a champ (although they still die in the end...stupid orks).
But yeah, you got a point. I'm just trying to say that whoever the focus of the book is, they have to be pretty awesome. Even if they lose/die heroically, they are generally still awesome. And I don't mean this for EVERY SINGLE BOOK because I'm sure there are some well written, balanced examples, I mean by and large.
The same Abnett who writes ten Astartes slaughtering two thousand dark eldar without a single loss and three Astartes slaughtering literally hundreds of Traitor Guard and xenos?
Obviously he got better with age and experience.
The earlier marine descriptions are simply laughable, one shotted with-arrows chaos marines in the gaunt books (as someone already mentioned...I cringed a lot when reading that book) and an assortment of what is basically big, dumb brutes in non protective power armour.
Take a look and compare slaughtering 200 dark eldar to what is written in say, the blood angel novels where the author basically kills of two full chapter worths of space mariens (they are that weak as being used similar to quantity cannon fodder).
Point is novel fluff cannot be taken at face value since it is so varied and all depends on author and also time of the novels writing.
If you want "real" space marine fluff and power level descriptions the older white dwarf IA articles are pure genius and also canon.
Those are what I always considered the most "real" of all the written descriptions and also perfectly in line with GWs own official fluff.
As for the dark heresy books Mel is right, they are consistent but alo made this way for all people to enjoy the game without ANY created characters having to big an advantage over another one.
I laughed out loud when reading the grey knight creation chapter in the GK dark heresy addon, even their weapons, which are supposed to be the best humanity has to offer, specially crafted nemesis force weapons and what have you, are turned down in power to ridiculous levels that are far below regular marine weapons simply because when used with a psychic power like hammerhand they gain a small boost and THEN making said weapons on pair with other marine wargear. All in the name of not wanting to upset balance or players to much.
Balance wise a squad of dark heresy marines are on pair with around double that amount of dark heresy orks and that is as far from "real" fluff as possible but makes perfect sense roleplaying wise where player characters are in fact allowed to be orks and part of the group too.
Pyriel- wrote:Obviously he got better with age and experience.
.
The latter one was from his most recent novel. (The three Astartes) So, no, your point is false.
Pyriel- wrote: one shotted with-arrows chaos marines in the gaunt books (as someone already mentioned...I cringed a lot when reading that book) and an assortment of what is basically big, dumb brutes in non protective power armour.
What books did you read? Can you give me proof that they were one-shotted with arrows in Traitor General? Because that did not happen in the book I read.
Pyriel- wrote:
Take a look and compare slaughtering 200 dark eldar to what is written in say, the blood angel novels where the author basically kills of two full chapter worths of space mariens (they are that weak as being used similar to quantity cannon fodder).
In the Blood Angels novel Astartes were fighting other Astartes.
Pyriel- wrote:Point is novel fluff cannot be taken at face value since it is so varied and all depends on author and also time of the novels writing.
Novel fluff is perfectly valid as any Codex.
Pyriel- wrote:
If you want "real" space marine fluff and power level descriptions the older white dwarf IA articles are pure genius and also canon.
Those are what I always considered the most "real" of all the written descriptions and also perfectly in line with GWs own official fluff.
Then give me an offical GW quote on Black Library not being canon.
Ok guys. The thing about the books is it's a story. I think for a lot of people who play 40k when they read the novels they're rolling dice I their head. It's not a battle report. It's not mathhammer. It's about the journey the characters have taken. It's not fair to single out one scene that's the climax of a story that may have taken over a decade of in-universe and real life time to cumulate.
It doesn't prove anything and all your really doing is throwing out spoilers like crazy. There's dozens of inconsiderate, consecutive non-stop spoilers in this thread.
Indeed. One cannot argue they are stupid either; behavior and much other varies a lot between chapters. I've read the Ultramarines series and i've taken that as my cue. Those that haven't read it, please do, because i think the information it provides is quite accurate.
of course you dont as you seem to have a very select reading capacity and only read things you agree on.
He was killed by a spear thrown by a primitive on a backward planet but it is also explicitly stated that this was due to extreme luck on the part of the spear thrower and more of a freak accident that was just outrageous. Maybe you ought to re read said book and pay attention this time rather then jumping on people with accusations of being false.
Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book.
They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see.
5 chaos marines walking into a forest village with the intent of killing everyone but ending up running left and right not seeing jack while a bunch of cave dwelling peasants did the peek-a-boo from behind a selection of trees while shooting arrows on them so that one by one they were killed. The one who actually managed to see an enemy ended up charging a tree or something like that.
Basically what abnett wrote back then was a scene with a squad of idiot marine wannabee paintballers getting manhandles by a bunch of teenagers. Gee, what realism indeed.
As for Abnett I said he got better in his later works where marines actually can kill things without fumbling around so that one is true but feel free to believe whatever you want.
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Then give me an offical GW quote on Black Library not being canon.
I think reading about internal chapter fighting (BA novels) ending up with more then the whole chapters worth of marines getting killed says pretty much for BL not being canon but keep believing any little story involving marines counts as canon if that makes you feel any better.
Care to explain how canon the soul drinker novels are by the way with hundreds getting killed in every book and still they somehow have power armours and wargear over to equip all the hundreds of new recruits they need to bolster their chapter almost every nolvel with no admech support and being on the run in something not even being their home fortress?
How canon are the word bearer novels?
He kills of close to 10 000 word bearers along with 10-ish capital ships and that is a big "oh well" since there are tens of thousands more where they came from. It is also insinuated based on the number of world bearers left in the eye and the comparison to the numbers of black legion marines left that there are about 100 000 black legion marines in the eye. Would that be canon?
One of the "good guys" the WB face is the second chapter master of the good guys, someone apparently 1200 years old (gee wonder why GW didnt mention there was a guy older then Dante, must be the non canon thing you know) who spends pretty much his days practicing sword fighting...and is treated like a clumsy rag doll by a WB sorceror in a duel.
If you read the novels and pay close attention to the numbers (ages, marine numbers etc) being stated and hinted you'll understand those novels are as far from canon as humanly possible but I am in no illusion that you will since you managed to miss a whole scene in the first heretic and a pretty fun at that.
Sorry if I sound harsh but I dont take being called false lightly, especially if it comes from someone who apparently misses entire scenes in books.
Pyriel wrote:Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book. They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see. 5 chaos marines walking into a forest village with the intent of killing everyone but ending up running left and right not seeing jack while a bunch of cave dwelling peasants did the peek-a-boo from behind a selection of trees while shooting arrows on them so that one by one they were killed. The one who actually managed to see an enemy ended up charging a tree or something like that.
The Book is the Traitor General. There's alot more to the Nihtgane than 'primitive villagers', the foremost thing is that their suspect of being tainted by Chaos, through use of the wode on their skin from the herbs and swamps of a Chaos held world, so one could assume that the Nihtgane were using said taint to their advantage.
Secondly, the majority of their attention came at the Ghosts.
Thirdly those arrows are heavily poisoned, but slow to take affect. In another book, 'His Last Command' Ezrah barbs a Wrought One (Chaos Ogryn) with 4 Barbs until the poison begins affecting its nervous system. The Nihtgane fired hundreds of those arrows into the slow Marines.
So there's alot more to it than them being 'simple primitives'.
of course you dont as you seem to have a very select reading capacity and only read things you agree on.
He was killed by a spear thrown by a primitive on a backward planet but it is also explicitly stated that this was due to extreme luck on the part of the spear thrower and more of a freak accident that was just outrageous. Maybe you ought to re read said book and pay attention this time rather then jumping on people with accusations of being false.
I said I don’t recall reading that, I never accused it of being false.
Perhaps you could post a quote for relevance?
Pyriel- wrote:
Dont know what gaunt book they were arrowed to death while fumbling around in mud like complete retards not even being able to locate the primitive villagers who shot at them with their super senses and tech wargear but you can probably find someone who helps you to the correct book.
It’s in Traitor General. Only one was killed by renybows and that was because he was not wearing a helmet and was perforated by something like fifty arrows in the face. All were heavily poisoned enough to drop Ogryns.
The rest were taken out by the Ghosts after they slaughtered 40 tribesmen. The Ghosts, as noted, were all highly experienced veterans whose main gimmick was stealth. The Astartes were hardly fumbling about.
Pyriel- wrote:
They werent one shotted I know that but pretty much massacred by arrows from simple people who they just couldnt see.
That’s not what happened. A single Chaos Marine was slain when he was surrounded and ambushed in the middle of a swamp by partisans who had lived there for centuries. HE was shot in the unarmored face by dozens of arrows. I would assume an Astartes mobility to be restricted by something like a swamp.
Pyriel- wrote:
Basically what abnett wrote back then was a scene with a squad of idiot marine wannabee paintballers getting manhandles by a bunch of teenagers. Gee, what realism indeed.
Again, that’s not what happened. You exaggerate heavily.
Pyriel- wrote:
I think reading about internal chapter fighting (BA novels) ending up with more then the whole chapters worth of marines getting killed says pretty much for BL not being canon but keep believing any little story involving marines counts as canon if that makes you feel any better.
Can you give me a quote and a statement that more than a chapter’ worth of Blood Angels being killed in the novels?
Pyriel- wrote:
Care to explain how canon the soul drinker novels are by the way with hundreds getting killed in every book and still they somehow have power armours and wargear over to equip all the hundreds of new recruits they need to bolster their chapter almost every nolvel with no admech support and being on the run in something not even being their home fortress?
Did you ignore the part in the first novel when they transferred everything from their fleet to the Space Hulk?
And the Soul Drinkers are effectively ill-equipped beyond basic Astartes armaments. It’s noted in the novels themselves that the Soul Drinkers lack Terminator armor and vehicles. Astartes are noted in Imperial Armour as manufacturing their own ammunition and suchlike, so we can expect them to be equipped with basic Astartes weapons and armor.
Pyriel- wrote:
He kills of close to 10 000 word bearers along with 10-ish capital ships and that is a big "oh well" since there are tens of thousands more where they came from. It is also insinuated based on the number of world bearers left in the eye and the comparison to the numbers of black legion marines left that there are about 100 000 black legion marines in the eye. Would that be canon?
Of ocurse. Collected Visions put’s the average Legion size at 100,000 Astartes and the Word Bearers as the Second Largest Legion in The First Heretic.
And no, they don’t kill of ten thousand Astartes. Ten thousand Astartes are sent, but many escape in the end.
Pyriel- wrote:
One of the "good guys" the WB face is the second chapter master of the good guys, someone apparently 1200 years old (gee wonder why GW didnt mention there was a guy older then Dante, must be the non canon thing you know) who spends pretty much his days practicing sword fighting...and is treated like a clumsy rag doll by a WB sorceror in a duel.
You are very incorrect here. Cymar Xydias was the one noted to be 1200 years old. Titus Valens was the one who fought Burias (A ten thousand year old Possessed Astartes veteran) and it was a proconsul who was mentioned sword training. Valens used a thunder hammer and ultimately died to having his unarmored face smashed in.
And why would Xydias’s age be non-canon? And why would GW mention the age of every Chapter Master in the Imperium in the Blood Angels Codex?
Pyriel- wrote:
If you read the novels and pay close attention to the numbers (ages, marine numbers etc) being stated and hinted you'll understand those novels are as far from canon as humanly possible but I am in no illusion that you will since you managed to miss a whole scene in the first heretic and a pretty fun at that.
Sorry if I sound harsh but I dont take being called false lightly, especially if it comes from someone who apparently misses entire scenes in books.
That is rich coming from someone who evidently did exactly what you are accusing me of.
Oh, and you still have not given me a GW quote saying that Black Library is non-canon. All you have given me so far is your biased and flawed opinion.
iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?
Yup, just like the USMC
In all seriousness, Space Marines are an elite "expeditionary" fighting force, not spec ops troops. Deathwatch on the other hand...
Gree wrote:Oh, and you still have not given me a GW quote saying that Black Library is non-canon. All you have given me so far is your biased and flawed opinion.
He has a point. Canon as a whole does not exist in this franchise - it is a fallacy that I myself have been following for way too long. Statements regarding this are available from both GW studio vets as well as Black Library writers themselves. Take a look at Gav Thorpe's blog or the one from Aaron-Dembski Bowden, for example.
And as such you really won't be getting anywhere by throwing novel quotes at each other. There is no consistency. In fact, the more you go into detail, Black Library novels contradict each other almost all the time because of the massive artistic license the authors are granted and they are under no obligation to adhere to their colleagues' ideas (again, see ADB).
GW's own fluff - with certain exceptions - tends to follow a more down-to-earth approach that has its foundation in the tabletop rules. The fact that authors of licensed products constantly exaggerate in a game of one-upmanship regarding who writes the most awesome Space Marines (of which their height seems to be a factor as well - Jes Goodwin himself joked about them getting bigger all the time) simply to pander to a target audience that prefers to read about the Astartes like an army of Living Gods has nothing to do with that. It did create the twisted perception that Marines in the TT are supposedly much worse than their fluff would have them, though, or even that the "Movie Marines" rules are a more accurate representation even when the actual article outright denies this. Talk about selective reading.
No, wait, I should amend that. Selective reading isn't exactly wrong, given that there is no uniform truth that would otherwise get changed by it. It is, however, wrong to claim that the TT rules would be an inadequate representation simply because they follow GW's interpretation of the Marines and not some novel author's. Other than that, simply pick the "powerlevel" you are most happy with and run with that. This is not something that can be debated. It's quite simply up to everyone's own personal preferences.
Lynata wrote:No, wait, I should amend that. Selective reading isn't exactly wrong, given that there is no uniform truth that would otherwise get changed by it. It is, however, wrong to claim that the TT rules would be an inadequate representation simply because they follow GW's interpretation of the Marines and not some novel author's. Other than that, simply pick the "powerlevel" you are most happy with and run with that. This is not something that can be debated. It's quite simply up to everyone's own personal preferences.
However if Marines arn't better in the background than they are on the table top, they are a massive waste of the Imperiums time. Just make more Storm Troopers.
Otherwise, agreed. Unless GW sets out a guideline to be followed, authors are fully entitled to pick the route they want to go. I myself favour the sort of strength the Imperial Armour books puts out there.
Romer wrote:However if Marines arn't better in the background than they are on the table top, they are a massive waste of the Imperiums time. Just make more Storm Troopers.
Just to add something to this - the Imperium does make more Storm Troopers ... they're called Grenadiers. "Proper" Storm Troopers (both from the IG's regiment as well as the Inquisitorial units) are only marginally better, differentiated more by their origin and deployment rather than experience and equipment (or survivability).
They also go on a higher number of dangerous missions and die much easier than Space Marines, meaning you'll have a much higher attrition rate there. High attrition is also true for the SoB, who are recruited from the very same facilities as Storm Troopers and share their comparatively low numbers. Even in the Imperium, there are only so many orphans considered eligible for Schola education "produced" each year, and of those, only a tiny percentage may become Storm Troopers who then may go on to die on their very first mission. It is perhaps ironical that it is much easier for a Space Marine Chapter to just land on some Feral World and pick a healthy-looking barbarian for Astartes transformation. Granted, their training takes way longer, but in return you get a Marine that will serve for ... let's say ~100 years on average.
Furthermore, the Astartes are still the most powerful projection of force that any type of Imperial infantry can focus on a small area. The actual degree by how much they are better is of secondary concern, i.e. this doesn't mean that to fulfill this role the Space Marine has to be a God (I facepalmed when I read Black Crusade now having escalated it to this level - before, it was at least just "Demigod" status) who is invulnerable to small arms fire. Even if a Space Marine would "only" be five to ten times as good as a regular Guardsman, this would result in a squad of Marines being able to take down an entire Company with the proper tactics, namely their famed use of "shock and awe". Which is where the Astartes truly excel.
For the sheer "hammer and anvil" type of power bluntly punching through waves upon waves of enemies you got the Imperial Guard. I believe that a lot of people are mixing these elements in an attempt to get the best of both worlds, but personally I think the end result looks rather mary-sueish. I much prefer the "vulnerable" yet smart Space Marines I read about in GW's own books, for only with fallibility and a real challenge comes true heroism. Also, it's way more Grimdark™ this way.
Lynata wrote: I much prefer the "vulnerable" yet smart Space Marines I read about in GW's own books, for only with fallibility and a real challenge comes true heroism.
Could you name some of these books, perchance? All the GW fluff I've read - and it's a lot - has Space Marines fitting the "movie Marines" power levels.
Blood_Raven wrote:Space Marines aren't special forces, the closest the Imperium has to Special Forces are Stormtroopers.
What are Space Marines then, shock troops?
Space Marines are in fact crusaders/protectors. They liberate and defend Human worlds.Hunt down and destroying enemy forces that are threat to stable sectors.
They are mix of Crusades/Special Forces ( I say that because of their strategy. Witch is most fast strike that destroy enemy supplies and cut out enemy reinforcements [ Zeist campaign ] or strike at enemy stronghold and killing enemy leader, leaving his army to nearby troops to finish. ), they rarely act differently out of these 2 aspects.
Romer wrote:However if Marines arn't better in the background than they are on the table top, they are a massive waste of the Imperiums time. Just make more Storm Troopers.
Just to add something to this - the Imperium does make more Storm Troopers ... they're called Grenadiers. "Proper" Storm Troopers (both from the IG's regiment as well as the Inquisitorial units) are only marginally better, differentiated more by their origin and deployment rather than experience and equipment (or survivability).
I understand Storm Troopers and Grenadiers. Long time Guard player here ^^
My point was that if Space Marines are only as good as they are on the table top, they hardly seem like a worth while investment. I agree with them not being unstoppable juggernaughts. As I said, I think the Imperial Armour books (such as IA8) show them well, devastating when applied properly, but certainly not invincible. But I don't think the table top game represents them properly.
Tabletop doesn't represent a Marine deployment's typical tactics. It's a relatively equal fight, and that's something that Marines, with their rapid deployment, ideally don't do.
How about we think of it this way. If we take the quote of 1 marine being equivalent to ten guardsmen, then a lot more force is able to be projected in a much smaller area. One man is dangerous and has a variety of tactics he can use to harm an opponent. Two such are even more dangerous as they are capable of more complex plans. So doubling the number more than doubles the threat.
Now, when you have the equivalent of ten well equipped, well trained, and generally much harder in one person, the opponent begins to have problems.
That marine is in a squad of ten, so let's say that's roughly equivalent to 100 well trained well equipped guardsmen. However the ability for the marines to focus that much force over a small pinpoint area increases their relative power greatly. Add in superior tactics, armor, cognition, senses, exp ect. . . and you have a force able to take a make larger apart piece by piece.
That is how I at least view the marines, extreme force with a very tight focus. Incredibly hard to kill? Yes, Impossible to do so? No.
Seaward wrote:Could you name some of these books, perchance? All the GW fluff I've read - and it's a lot - has Space Marines fitting the "movie Marines" power levels.
I'd have to read through them again, but off the top of my head I do remember that the Angels of Death Codex explained the protective values of Astartes power armour in good detail, and the percentages given there regarding prevention of injury from common small arms fire are roughly identical to how it works on the tabletop. Which makes sense - GW did not create the rules after the fluff, they wrote the fluff after the rules.
I won't deny that the studio is certainly pushing the "hero" angle in its books to further the hype, but mostly this only results in rather vague descriptions or one-off exceptional battle events that occasionally stand in contrast to the more solid facts that can at times be found in equipment fluff (though such clear-cut data has gotten more scarce over the years - might be an edition thing?). And conversely you have incidents like a certain Catachan strangling an invading CSMLord to death, which lets me remain adamant in questioning the sheer width of this gap between humans and Astartes. Don't get me wrong, the latter are superior. But the way I see it, they are not invincible. Not even to Guardsman Joe and his trusty lasgun - in GW's Inquisitor RPG it takes several good hits, but in FFG's version they are invulnerable to this kind of weapon. The same differences you have amongst the novels or other "outsourced" material, including the IA books. I still remember Marine armour in the Badab one reflecting hellgun shots...
It's a taste thing, though. Without canon, there can be no "right" or "wrong" on this particular subject, only lots of different interpretations from authors, readers and players alike - as Gav pointed out on his blog. As someone who prefers a greater degree of consistency, I have to admit I'm not too much of a fan of this solution - but there you go. At least this gives us the option to ignore stuff we'd otherwise facepalm about, depending on our own perception.
The Unforgiven Saint wrote:That marine is in a squad of ten, so let's say that's roughly equivalent to 100 well trained well equipped guardsmen. However the ability for the marines to focus that much force over a small pinpoint area increases their relative power greatly. Add in superior tactics, armor, cognition, senses, exp ect. . . and you have a force able to take a make larger apart piece by piece.
To be fair, that quote - made by a Primarch no less - was equating 100 Marines to 1.000 other troops. If their power would increase exponentially, you'd end up with something lower than a 1:10 ratio on an individual basis.
In my opinion, the decisive factor would be that even a single Guardsman has, in theory, a chance to take down a Marine. All he needs is a lucky hit with his standard issue rifle. Or a not-so-lucky one when he's manning a heavy weapon or even carries a plasma gun. Alright, that's rare - but it happens. This is where the element of surprise comes in, though, as well as a Marine's greater level of experience and certain traits that allow him to pursue non-standard solutions. Such as simply busting through a wall when he'd otherwise have to storm through the door...
All in all I think our two opinions are rather close, though. There's nothing wrong with a certain degree of awesomeness - as long as it doesn't grow out of proportions.
Lynata wrote:I'd have to read through them again, but off the top of my head I do remember that the Angels of Death Codex explained the protective values of Astartes power armour in good detail, and the percentages given there regarding prevention of injury from common small arms fire are roughly identical to how it works on the tabletop.
Which still doesn't make a great deal of sense, because in the situations that Astartes find themselves in they'd almost certainly take more than a dozen or so shots from lasguns.
Lynata wrote:And conversely you have incidents like a certain Catachan strangling an invading CSMLord to death, which lets me remain adamant in questioning the sheer width of this gap between humans and Astartes.
To be fair, that was more of a sneak attack that was presumably in the midst of an assault (otherwise he'd have been killed by the other Night Lords). Let's not ask about what happened to the presumably uncontested Night Lord ship or fleet in orbit.
Lynata wrote:And conversely you have incidents like a certain Catachan strangling an invading CSMLord to death, which lets me remain adamant in questioning the sheer width of this gap between humans and Astartes.
I've been meaning to ask this, when this occurred, was Straken by this point a bionic man with a punch as devastating as a chainfist?
To the same degree that everyone that reads BL's novela (and to some extent GW's) looks at tabletop SM's with something akin to disappointment, the same could be said of the Guard (don't even get me started with the Ghost's or in smaller cases, the exchanges that Cain has with his novel-by-novel guardsmen subordinates). Of course I might be the only one that does that.
The easiest way I can think of 'Special Foces' given that the force makeups are just so enormously diverse for the armies we read about, is to treat each 'race' as the general 'army' and have the more specialized groups be considered special forces. Sort of like Stormtroopers are to Guardsmen as Space Marine Scouts (in some chapters) are to Space Marines, they're all apart of the same soldiery, it's just that some of that group are more extensively (and in some cases differently) trained than their brethren.
Of course this is a debate over the meaning of a term used in the 21st century to describe an elite group of soldiers, and their 41st millenium counterparts. Which is sort of an inadequate description anyway given the rediculous powerhouses that walk around in the WH40k universe.
Then again Grey Knights>All. Let the flaming commence.
Indeed. I've just finished reading the book fulgrim, where "hundreds of Astartes are obliterated" by a single titan shot. I see them as vulnerable to ordnance but highly resistant to melee attacks and small arms fire. Again, the ultramarines series version of telling it is what i prefer. So. Done. Back to true thread; whether astartes fits as special forces or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, Melissia, this one's for you: have you ever read that "Space Marines can shrug of hits that would put holes in a battle tank"?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
It doesn't prove anything and all your really doing is throwing out spoilers like crazy. There's dozens of inconsiderate, consecutive non-stop spoilers in this thread.
Yeah, you have a point there. I got too caught up in things and didnt think about spoilerizing it. Sorry about that.
Lynata wrote:GW did not create the rules after the fluff, they wrote the fluff after the rules.
I actually really doubt that, to be honest. Either way, both fluff and rules have changed a great deal over the course of the game's lifetime.
But the way I see it, they are not invincible.
No one's arguing that they're invincible, that I've seen. What people are arguing is that they're miles ahead of Guardsmen.
As far as Straken goes, I don't see him contradicting that point of view. In 10,000 years of constant warfare, we have one (seriously augmented) Guardsman strangling a Chaos Lord in a sneak attack. I'll buy that. Hell, we have people who win the lotto jackpot twice in their lifetime here on earth. Odds work that way sometimes. Taking Straken as indicative of every other Guardsman out there, and how they'd fare one-on-one with a Space Marine, is pretty absurd, though.
Black Library authors are license fiction writers, not studied military fiction writers. The reason why very little the Space Marines do in the books makes sense? Because the writers write battles, they don't actually think about them or plan them out. That's why everything in the 40K universe gets contradicted at some point too. there's no fact checking, or quality control with the writers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Melissia, if what you said is true and SM would have little chance in a straight-up fight, how can the Space Wolves and World Eaters have survived?
Because success in the 40K universe has nothing to do with realism. On the table top or in the fluff. The Space Wolves, World Eaters, Black Templars... they all win battles because GW says they do, and writes rules for a tabletop game where armies of roughly equivalent power fight each other on sterile, neutral battlefields. Battles where supporting fires, maneuver, etc aren't important. There isn't a chance in hell that the Black Templars, Space Wolves, World Eaters, etc, would function in a "real" 40K environment if they actually fought like they are often described to.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Which still doesn't make a great deal of sense, because in the situations that Astartes find themselves in they'd almost certainly take more than a dozen or so shots from lasguns.
Which is when some of them would get injured or even neutralized - if one follows the descriptions in the AoD Codex. All of that is of no concern. What matters is the impact the Marines will have in the time between crashing their enemies' party and potentially drawing massed fire when their opponent is given time to react. As I said, "shock and awe". They don't march head on into enemy fire proudly announcing their presence - they will flank, use cover or drop in from above. When Astartes get pressed into trench warfare, something has gone terribly wrong.
Void__Dragon wrote:I've been meaning to ask this, when this occurred, was Straken by this point a bionic man with a punch as devastating as a chainfist?
Unknown, although I would assume so. Of course you cannot strangle someone using only one arm, though - the other end of the root wants to be held tight, too.
Certainly I would not want to suggest that any normal human has a chance of strangling a Marine. I would expect even their necks having enough muscle to prevent this. Still, I think it's worth pointing out what even CSM Lords are susceptible to. Just like I thought it should be pointed out that Astartes power armour and body toughness, at least according to some GW fluff, are not quite as protective as a lot of people seem to assume.
Does that mean that anyone has to change their opinion? No. I'm just pointing at the interpretations of "weaker" Marines (typing this still feels like an oxymoron), as I have a feeling they're consistently being overlooked in favour of the "more awesome/epic/cool" displays of crazy heroics or even an elevation to godhood in certain (especially licensed/outsourced) products that by now are just taken for granted. In my opinion, it diminishes the role of normal humans and plays down the importance of organizations like the Imperial Guard. It is not the Astartes that hold the Imperium together. In fact, I still think that a mere million Marines is pretty redundant for the overall existence of the IoM, especially considering the fact that a lot of them keep going rogue or kick off one internal conflict after the other. Of course that doesn't change the fact that they are certainly nice to have as a decisive factor in some few high profile conflicts - regardless of how much more powerful you want them to be.
Lynata wrote:Which is when some of them would get injured or even neutralized - if one follows the descriptions in the AoD Codex. All of that is of no concern. What matters is the impact the Marines will have in the time between crashing their enemies' party and potentially drawing massed fire when their opponent is given time to react. As I said, "shock and awe". They don't march head on into enemy fire proudly announcing their presence - they will flank, use cover or drop in from above. When Astartes get pressed into trench warfare, something has gone terribly wrong.
Except the Astartes are much rather in the 41st millennium, and they can't afford to lose them to a dozen lasgun shots. For a highly accurate and impossible to dodge weapon, that's not too difficult to accomplish, especially when you outnumber those you're fighting. They'd take significant losses just from fighting Guardsmen, let alone what they end up fighting when they crash down into the headquarters of the enemy.
Lynata wrote:In fact, I still think that a mere million Marines is pretty redundant for the overall existence of the IoM, especially considering the fact that a lot of them keep going rogue or kick off one internal conflict after the other.
I think that's to highlight the fact that they aren't entirely incorruptible. And to explain where all these Chaos Marines keep coming from, lol.
However, it's fairly obvious that regular humans fall to Chaos with far greater proportional frequency than Space Marines.
But I do agree that Space Marines are constantly misrepresented. Them as shock troops and performing surgical strikes is far more believable. But the game is about conventional battles. So most of the time people see Marines in straight up battles.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Except the Astartes are much rather in the 41st millennium, and they can't afford to lose them to a dozen lasgun shots.
Then they should plan their assaults accordingly. I'm sorry, I fail to see the issue.
I get it, many people simply prefer them to be able to wade through a hail of shots or charge head-on into a fortified position without the defenders even having a chance to take them down. If that's how you like them, that's your interpretation. Mine happens to be somewhat more gritty. As I said, it's not really something worth debating about.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, it's fairly obvious that regular humans fall to Chaos with far greater proportional frequency than Space Marines.
Absolutely - it wasn't my intention to omit this fact. It's probably much worse when a Marine falls to Chaos since it's so much harder to stop him, though (and because it took way more years and resources to make him into what he was). Regardless of my low opinion in terms of Astartes importance for the vast Imperium as a whole, I very much recognize their capabilities as a decisive factor in individual engagements (or even campaigns), and even a single rogue Marine becoming a Champion for the enemy would be a bad thing indeed. Probably more because of the effects of morale than actual combat prowess, though. Such a fearsome foe leading from the front and having such a high survivability would make the perfect rallying point for his troops, even if he is just one guy.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:But I do agree that Space Marines are constantly misrepresented. Them as shock troops and performing surgical strikes is far more believable. But the game is about conventional battles. So most of the time people see Marines in straight up battles.
I think it's also because of how certain novels and outsourced RPGs tend to ... shall we say "emphasize" their superiority. In some authors' interpretations, it would indeed be hard to understand why they would not be used as line infantry, too, since virtually nothing is able to stop them. Hero Bonus dialed up to eleven. It's not how I see things, but I think I can understand why others would draw these conclusions. It all depends on what material you look at - or how you look at it (I still remember people claiming the "Movie Marine" rules supposedly being an accurate representation ... when the article itself clearly stated the opposite).
Well, the Space Marines have always been tougher in the fluff than on the table.
The table representation is the incorrect one. But that's because the table top game has to be fun and playable and profitable (this being the most important part). And if every Marine was a Terminator and every Terminator a Dreadnought, then Space Marine armies would only need a dozen or so models, which really then highlights the absolute insanity of playing any of the other factions aside from Chaos Marines, lol. Why spend hundreds of dollars on an army when Space Marines can be finished for less than a hundred bucks off EBay? Then the price of Marines just gets jacked up to an even more ridiculous level. the Marine rules have to be balanced with the need to make selling them good business, and make purchasing other armies also seem like a good deal.
It's entirely true that amongst the Black Library's legion of hack writers, the Space Marines sometimes get boosted to ridiculous levels, but they're supposed to be a "little" ridiculous. There's supposed to be a huge contrast between them and the Imperial Guardsmen. The problem is that it never really gets depicted an a correct scale. Even in the Horus Heresy novels (of which a few are the only recent novels I've read), the Titans get downplayed and the Guardsmen often forgotten in the descriptions of the action. The Imperial Armour books seem to be the best representations of Marines. But that's because those guys seem to be a bit more military minded than the license fiction authors. If you can put up with endless typos and grammar errors, that is, lol. Black Library novels don't really seem to display any sense of what sort of linearity combat would have. Things just sort of happen, and then they can describe the violence as graphically as possible using every bit of showing imagery a 200 level creative writing class teaches you to use.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's important to note, however, that while sometimes Marines in the novels seem ridiculously overpowered, other times they are weaker than wet tissue paper. Again why I'd maintain just about anything in the BL novels should be held in dubious credibility and esteem as sources. But it's really no different from any of the other protagonists of BL novels. They're cardboard action hero cut-outs.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The table representation is the incorrect one.
There is no "incorrect" one.
And as I said, the chance of a lasgun neutralizing a Space Marine in the TT is perfectly replicated in GW's fluff about the protective qualities for Astartes power armour. Coincidence? Well, that depends on just how powerful you prefer your Marines to be...
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Imperial Armour books seem to be the best representations of Marines.
Eh, I dunno. Power armour reflecting hotshot rounds is reason enough for me to facepalm.
Whilst they do write their military bits in a much more realistic fashion (especially the number games), they contradicted studio material on more than one occasion. Not that this is wrong. It's just, again, a different interpretation.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's important to note, however, that while sometimes Marines in the novels seem ridiculously overpowered, other times they are weaker than wet tissue paper.
Agreed, it all depends on if they are the heroes, the antagonist, or a supporting character. And the author's own preferences, of course. It can be fun to compare BL novels written by GW designers with BL novels written by fans, by the way. I noticed a power creep between those, too - although I wouldn't go as far as to say that this is a trend or even a general rule.
Ironically having the hellguns not penetrating Power armour was to be in line with the codex portrayal. They can hardly be blamed if GW codex material cannot be internally consistent.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ironically having the hellguns not penetrating Power armour was to be in line with the codex portrayal. They can hardly be blamed if GW codex material cannot be internally consistent.
Yeah, the Codices definitely are not consistent. For example the Grey Knight Codex saying 400 chapters were made in the Second Founding while the Space Marine one only lists about 30 and put’s the Legions at ten thousand men strong each.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ironically having the hellguns not penetrating Power armour was to be in line with the codex portrayal.
Boltguns do not automatically penetrate power armour either (keep in mind that all that Penetration does is prevent an armour save entirely - any weapon has some chance of still punching through), yet things would look pretty ridiculous if this would mean that Marines and SoB are completely invincible against these weapons.
My criticism regarding this is not due to an edition change, it is that they let hellguns appear to be completely useless against power armour - and that the shots did not just go poof on the plating but were reflected as if it was some kind of crazy mirror. This is not how las weapons work as per GW; they have always been described as having an explosive effect on the target surface.
Obviously this isn't meant as real criticism as the FW writers' interpretation is just as valid as that of GW, I'm just pointing out where it doesn't fit to each other.
I've never really thought that hellguns affected their targets like classic lasguns anyway. I picture hellguns as more of a cutting beam. It makes sense, we have lots of weird lasers that can only cut part of an eye or go through skin and remove ink or somehow whiten your teeth. It seems to me hellguns would be a totally different calibration - not just a super-lasgun.
Hmm. Possible - I can at least understand why one could come to such conclusions, though some descriptions suggest otherwise.
Still, the reflecting bit is just ... I mean, I'd probably regard it as less weird if the beams had been described as simply being absorbed by the armour, maybe leaving a burn mark. Which would of course make them appear less effective as lasguns, but still be less ridiculous than an energy beam being thrown back by a comparatively uneven non-shiny surface that has never before been noted as having such properties. Personal opinion.
The many shots not doing any damage at all could always be written off as the usual hero bonus.
Lynata wrote:Hmm. Possible - I can at least understand why one could come to such conclusions, though some descriptions suggest otherwise.
Still, the reflecting bit is just ... I mean, I'd probably regard it as less weird if the beams had been described as simply being absorbed by the armour, maybe leaving a burn mark. Which would of course make them appear less effective as lasguns, but still be less ridiculous than an energy beam being thrown back by a comparatively uneven non-shiny surface that has never before been noted as having such properties. Personal opinion.
The many shots not doing any damage at all could always be written off as the usual hero bonus.
That's because he polished his armour beforehand....
tabletop space marine would take on average 9 lasgun shots to down it, 1/3 wound and 1/3 armour failure.
Thing is, in game one "shot" actually represents a few shots, especially with rapid fire weapons that'd fire 2/3 shots a second.
But then, why would a Space Marine (other than black templar) charge point plank at a readied fireline of guardsmen.
@ Veteran Sergeant, I'd say the marine power level is somewhere in between BL and the TT. On the TT they are worth 3 guardsmen, in the book 100, but Rogal Dorn himself said 10, so I'd say that's the safest bet.
And the IA have OP marines too. A Crisis suit would be worth several marines in a shoot out, but in the Taros Campaign they had marines and crisis suits at about 1-1
Different authors have different interpretations of 40k, just as fans do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gree wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ironically having the hellguns not penetrating Power armour was to be in line with the codex portrayal. They can hardly be blamed if GW codex material cannot be internally consistent.
Yeah, the Codices definitely are not consistent. For example the Grey Knight Codex saying 400 chapters were made in the Second Founding while the Space Marine one only lists about 30 and put’s the Legions at ten thousand men strong each.
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.
And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...
im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.
And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...
Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.
Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?
Lynata wrote:Unknown, although I would assume so. Of course you cannot strangle someone using only one arm, though - the other end of the root wants to be held tight, too.
This does bring up the question of why someone like Straken would need the root at all. Unless roots>Marines>Chainfists?
On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure that, although one of Straken's arms is obviously mechanical, his entire body is augmented extensively.
Certainly I would not want to suggest that any normal human has a chance of strangling a Marine. I would expect even their necks having enough muscle to prevent this. Still, I think it's worth pointing out what even CSM Lords are susceptible to. Just like I thought it should be pointed out that Astartes power armour and body toughness, at least according to some GW fluff, are not quite as protective as a lot of people seem to assume.
I don't think anyone would argue that Astartes have an inherent immunity to strangling. I'm pretty sure something stronger than a Marine, like a Necron Lord or Daemon Prince, could pretty handily strangle a Marine for instance lol.
Does that mean that anyone has to change their opinion? No. I'm just pointing at the interpretations of "weaker" Marines (typing this still feels like an oxymoron), as I have a feeling they're consistently being overlooked in favour of the "more awesome/epic/cool" displays of crazy heroics or even an elevation to godhood in certain (especially licensed/outsourced) products that by now are just taken for granted.
You don't need to constantly emphasize that your views are just your opinion of the setting in every post. I've just noticed that you tend to do that a lot now.
In my opinion, it diminishes the role of normal humans and plays down the importance of organizations like the Imperial Guard. It is not the Astartes that hold the Imperium together. In fact, I still think that a mere million Marines is pretty redundant for the overall existence of the IoM, especially considering the fact that a lot of them keep going rogue or kick off one internal conflict after the other. Of course that doesn't change the fact that they are certainly nice to have as a decisive factor in some few high profile conflicts - regardless of how much more powerful you want them to be.
That's really the purpose of the Astartes. Most guardsmen, and most battles in the setting, won't see a Marine make an appearance. Marines usually only show up to change the tide of a war through precise applications of their overwhelming force.
Personally, I haven't read a BL books where Marines have come off as "too powerful," myself (In fact, in Horus Rising, they came off as too weak), but I also have fairly limited experience regarding BL, being limited mostly to the Horus Heresy series.
Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?
That's really the purpose of the Astartes. Most guardsmen, and most battles in the setting, won't see a Marine make an appearance. Marines usually only show up to change the tide of a war through precise applications of their overwhelming force.
Personally, I haven't read a BL books where Marines have come off as "too powerful," myself (In fact, in Horus Rising, they came off as too weak), but I also have fairly limited experience regarding BL, being limited mostly to the Horus Heresy series.
Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?
Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.
@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.
And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.
Yeah that's pretty ridiculous IMO. I prefer my Marines on average being a little taller than seven feet.
@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.
I prefer to think of them as the Emperor's sword, with the Imperial Guard being the mace/hammer. The hammer is used to break open and weaken the strongest points of the enemy through overwhelming force, whereas the sword must be wielded with precision, thrusting into where the enemy is weakest. Though that's just the flowery way I like to think of it.
And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.
Nah, I think people are taking Dorn's quote far too literally. A Marine being worth ten men is frankly stupid IMHO. For what they are expected to survive, ten men is not nearly good enough. A single Eldar Aspect Warrior is greater than ten men, for example. Marines are expected to match them.
In Horus Rising, Marines were having their chests, armour and all, blown out by bolters. I must respectfully disagree with Dan Abnett's portrayal of them in that book (He was better in Eisenhorn regarding the Marines, IMO).
im2randomghgh wrote:We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.
We must remember a couple things about that, really. We must remember he probably didn't break out the calculator and do the arithmetic, and that ten's a nice round number versus, say, 23. Or 13. Or 17.45.
We must remember he was talking about Heresy-era Imperial Army, rather than 40K Imperial Guard.
We must remember that if table top rules are genuine reflections of Space Marine power, then he's dead wrong, because you'd be an idiot to take one Tactical Marine over 10 Guardsmen - the 10 Guardsmen would be superior.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well in the Dark Hunters short in Legends of the Space Marines, the Dark Hunter was described as 9' without armour, and took and entire lasgun salvo to his bare torso and lived, and his bolter was described as the size of a 10 year old child, and it took a farmer and his son working together to lift his helmet off IIRC, though I might not, as I read it a while ago.
Yeah that's pretty ridiculous IMO. I prefer my Marines on average being a little taller than seven feet.
Same, 6'6"-7' is abour right for me. Obviously it would vary by chapter and by individual, as a neophyte who would have been 7' anyways would probably be taller.
@ The first part, that is the spearhead metaphor so commonly associated with astartes. The spear head makes the spear infinitely more powerful, but the shaft alone would be a right fine weapon either way, as a stave. The spear head would be completely incapable of defeating the shaft if it came to it, and the shaft would be more than sufficient to beat someone into submission, but it really is nice to have that point on the end.
I prefer to think of them as the Emperor's sword, with the Imperial Guard being the mace/hammer. The hammer is used to break open and weaken the strongest points of the enemy through overwhelming force, whereas the sword must be wielded with precision, thrusting into where the enemy is weakest. Though that's just the flowery way I like to think of it.
I used to think of it like that, but that makes them sound like two different weapon which isn't generally how I picture them. Usually the IoM's offensives are crusades which feature astartes but are mostly navy and guard. The space marine contingent breaks open the toughest pockets of resistance, and the the IG's lasguns wipe up just about everything else.
And Horus Rising was one of my favourite marine interpretations, though they came off a bit too strong even in that. We must remember that Rogal Dorn himself said they are worth ten men.
Nah, I think people are taking Dorn's quote far too literally. A Marine being worth ten men is frankly stupid IMHO. For what they are expected to survive, ten men is not nearly good enough. A single Eldar Aspect Warrior is greater than ten men, for example. Marines are expected to match them.
In Horus Rising, Marines were having their chests, armour and all, blown out by bolters. I must respectfully disagree with Dan Abnett's portrayal of them in that book (He was better in Eisenhorn regarding the Marines, IMO).
I like Dorn's quote, though I think it is situational. Over his career, a space marine will most likely acquire more kills than 10 guardsmen (depends on the guardsmen and the marines, though) but if you had a tactical on an open field against a platoon of 100 with a commissar, 3 or 4 power fist sergeants, the occasional exotic weapon or bionic etc. It would most likely not end well for the space marines. Really though, it depends on your interpretation.
And IMHO an aspect warrior is worth at least as much as a marine, though they are more fragile, they are much quicker than a marine. Plus korlandril kills ~a dozen marines IIRC. Either way, I respect your view, especially as I once held the same one
As to Horus Rising, I don't think he got the marines wrong, I think he either underestimated PA, or over-estimated the armor-piercing capabilities of a bolter. It would make sense if he had the bolt come in at an angle through a joint and hit their chest...
im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.
And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...
Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.
Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?
Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?
im2randomghgh wrote:
30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.
And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...
Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.
Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?
Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?
Haha, nope.
Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.
Except we have a statement that they were derived directly from each of the Second Founding Legions and that the new chapters formed from the division were called the Second Founding.
If you made a new chapter from Imperial Fist geneseed then they would not be created directly from the Legion but indirectly through geneseed.
How about this, go show me a quote that explicitly states chapters were created from scratch separate from the divided Legions.
And we have a very clear quote on the Second Founding taking place seven years after the death of Horus and that each Astartes Legion consisted of ten thousand men on average. So according to you in a mere seven years the Imperium churned out an addition 300,000-400,000 Astartes. If they can make that many Astartes that quickly then why did the Legions only were able to divide into less than five chapters? Why do they have twice as much Astartes than the Emperor did during the Great Crusade with both the combined loyalist and traitor legions? Why does the Imperium only have a million Space Marines if they can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in less than a decade?
Or this?
Codex Space Wolves
The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller chapters and a code was drawn up to define their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This Code was called the Codex Astartes. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order a chapter’s size was limited to a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller chapter and continued to keep its old name, but he remaining Space Marine warriors were organized into new chapters.
The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding.
It states that only the Chapters formed from the Legions were the Second Founding.
Codex Marines
Upon the Codex’s implementation, each old Legion became a chapter named for its forebear plus a number of new Chapters. These new Chapters were known as the Second Founding.
Ditto
Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line
He was created directly from a First Founding Chapter. If they were created from scatch just using the geneseed then they would obviously not be created directly.
Gree, you yourself noted that the Ultramarines were churning out Space Marines as quick as they were able, and we know for sure the Raven Guard were doing that, and the others probably were as well. Unless you think there was insufficient gene-seed, in the age where they were actually able to create it from scratch...
As for your last sentence, the reason would be that new foundings only happen on the order of the HLoT, and only in times of great need.
im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, you yourself noted that the Ultramarines were churning out Space Marines as quick as they were able, and we know for sure the Raven Guard were doing that, and the others probably were as well. Unless you think there was insufficient gene-seed, in the age where they were actually able to create it from scratch...
And if they can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in ten years then why did the Emperor run around with Legions that are stated to consist of ten thousand men if he could easily create much more than that? If the Legions were churning out men as quickly as they were able to then why were most Legions only able to divide into less than five chapters and the Ultramarines only 23 chapters? Where did those hundreds of thousands of new Astartes come from? Why did the Emperor not create Legions that nubmered in the millions each? Why were some Legions unable to divide at all if they could make out that many Astartes easily?
And why do have explicit statements that contradict your claims? Statements that say that the Second Founding were created directly from the first Founding Legions and that they were the only ones that were the Second Founding?
im2randomghgh wrote:
As for your last sentence, the reason would be that new foundings only happen on the order of the HLoT, and only in times of great need.
But why create a million Astartes if you can create billions easily? Imagine the Hive Fleets being countered by several hundred million Astartes.
Special training. Check
Special weapons and equipment. Check
Special tactics. Check
Special missions. Check
Yup SM units would likely have the SF marking on the command maps of their enemies.
Which of course means an higher target priority and more unfair fire.
im2randomghgh wrote:30 named chapters. GW is not going to name all 1,000 modern chapter, just as they won't name all 400 2nd founding ones.
And they have plenty of gene-seed, they create new marines for these chapters. There were chapters created from existing marines, but unless you'd care to prove that they were all like that...
Of course I can. We fortunately we have statements that most Legions divided into less than 5 chapters and all Second Founding Chapters came from the Legions directly.
Unless you are claiming that the Ultramarines went from roughly ten thousand men to well over 300,000 Astartes in less than a decade? That apparently the Ultramarines outnumbered every other Legion traitor and loyalist combined?
Going by your lack of response to this post should I assume you concede the argument?
Haha, nope.
Responding partially to what you said in the other thread, derived from a legion and divided from a legion are different things. If I made a new chapter from IF gene-seed, they would be (Guess what!) derived from the IF.
But they wouldn't be Second Founding. They would be whatever founding number the Imperium is at right now. They'd be second generation, technically, sure.
And the Ultramarines were huge before the post Heresy. They didn't have ten thousand before the Heresy. They were already the largest Legion because Guilliman was a better logistician, strategist and administrator than the other Primarchs. He'd been setting up more effective pipelines for recruitment and likely writing the doctrines for recruitment and training that became the ones in the Codex. Surely the gene seed was there, it was just after the Heresy, there were much stricter guidelines on how they were to be used and distributed.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They'd be second generation, technically, sure. Where did you get the 400 Second Founding numbers? That doesn't exist anywhere in any fluff, ever.
The Grey Knights Codex states that 400 chapters were made in the Second Founding. Pg. 7.
Obviously the Marine codex does not list 400 chapters. It states that the Second Founding chapters were those created directly from the Legions when the Legions were broken up, not created from scratch. It says that most Legions split into less than five chapters and the Ultramarines split into 23 chapters.
Now I find it highly unlikely that the Imperium could suddenly create hundreds of thousands of Astartes out of nowhere in a mere seven years. (The Marine Codex states that the Second Founding took place seven years after the Heresy)
im2randomghgh has claimed that the codices do not contradict each other and that they are totally canon. I pointed out that they do contradict and I gave him some explicit quotes and I pointed out the gaping flaws in his argument. im2randomghgh is apparently basing his argument on the fact that the Imperium created many chapters from scratch, conveniently ignoring that we have multiple quotes stating otherwise and he actually has no proof himself that chapters were created from scratch.
Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.
Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And the Ultramarines were huge before the post Heresy. They didn't have ten thousand before the Heresy. They were already the largest Legion because Guilliman was a better logistician, strategist and administrator than the other Primarchs. He'd been setting up more effective pipelines for recruitment and likely writing the doctrines for recruitment and training that became the ones in the Codex. Surely the gene seed was there, it was just after the Heresy, there were much stricter guidelines on how they were to be used and distributed.
However in the context of the Marine Codex it’s unlikely the Ultramarines numbered in the hundreds of thousands. They only split into 23 chapters for the Second Founding.
And good lord, I guess I'm completely wrong. I've never close read Codex Grey Knights. Though, to be realistic, 400 Chapters does sound more realistic than the 30 or so. I mean, the Ultramarines should have been split two hundred something times alone.
However, the 23 refers to the Apocrypha of Skaros, which also mentions that all 23 are not named.
Dunno, it's just another giant plot hole. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. It's reasonable to believe that the casualties sustained retaking the galaxy would have been pretty severe. But that would be pretty astounding.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
However, the 23 refers to the Apocrypha of Skaros, which also mentions that all 23 are not named.
But they split 23 times indicating a size of 23,000 Astartes.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Dunno, it's just another giant plot hole. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. It's reasonable to believe that the casualties sustained retaking the galaxy would have been pretty severe. But that would be pretty astounding.
Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex. The Ultramarines were noted to be the largest, but to what degree was unknown, but evidence suggests that they were around 23,000 men.
Of course if the Imperium can create hundreds of thousands of Astartes in seven years then why are the Emperor’s Legions only ten thousand men strong?
And im2randomghgh claims the Codices never contradict themselves.
Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.
Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
This is a post irrelevant to the conversation posted for the purpose of starting a flame war.
Of course if the Codices are totally canon then the Ultramarines are the greatest chapter and the Imperial Fists want to be like them. Stated flat out in the Codex.
Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
This is a post irrelevant to the conversation posted for the purpose of starting a flame war.
Flagged for trolling.
And so you accuse the opposition of trolling when they bring up a valid point then?
im2randomghgh wrote:Validity aside, it is irrelevant and targeted at me specifically, since you have (quite obviously) noticed my love for IF and disdain for UM
I thought you were ignoring me?
and of course we were having said discussion about the Fists in the other thread. In hindsight I should have probably posted it there.
Oh, and I'm still waiting for the answer to my main point.
im2randomghgh wrote:Validity aside, it is irrelevant and targeted at me specifically, since you have (quite obviously) noticed my love for IF and disdain for UM
I thought you were ignoring me?
and of course we were having said discussion about the Fists in the other thread. In hindsight I should have probably posted it there.
Oh, and I'm still waiting for the answer to my main point.
Oh and go read my most recent post on the other thread.
And and you don't deny your trolling...
And it is not relevant to ANY discussion we have ever, nor shall ever have.
And you can click a button to show a specific ignored post.
Void__Dragon wrote:On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure that, although one of Straken's arms is obviously mechanical, his entire body is augmented extensively.
Well, his other arm isn't. *shrugs* That said, he's a Catachan, that also goes a long way by itself.
Void__Dragon wrote:You don't need to constantly emphasize that your views are just your opinion of the setting in every post. I've just noticed that you tend to do that a lot now.
Mhm. Partially it's because until my, uh, "enlightenment" I was firmly believing in the information I was working it being "canon", as if there would be a single truth to the setting, with facts that everybody should adhere to. Perhaps I am stressing the opinion-thing a bit much because I don't want to be mistaken due to my past position on this. On the other hand, I might also subconsciously attempt to appeal to others. I noticed that a lot of posters are still "trapped" where I once was, which, due to the nature of the 40k franchise, will not serve the debate or may even create false perceptions. Just look at the novel quote war...
Void__Dragon wrote:Out of curiosity, what instances have you seen in BL that stretched your willing suspension of disbelief?
It's mostly the things that other people have quoted in forums like this one. Be it their height, what kind of punishment it takes to kill one (or more often than not what isn't enough), and the effects of their weapons. I'm not particularly well-versed in Black Library products either (my collection contains only about three novels, a short story anthology, two omnibuses, an audiobook and a graphic novel - plus the Primer and the Munitorum Manual), and I tend to stay away from Marine books especially because I am not interested in reading about invincible supermen who are oh-so powerful and mighty. From what I own myself, it is ironically the FFG books where I keep rolling eyes about certain descriptions.
Perhaps my perception is also a bit "tainted" by reading all the hype and praise from various Marine fans (which is particularly bad on the FFG forums, from which I have departed due to "not fitting in") rather than reading the BL material myself, though I know that through several discussions I've seen a lot of quotes that were responsible for further reinforcing my opinion. I should point out I've also read many interpretations that I would deem compatible to my own views, though. Ironically, one of the books I own myself - the Dark Imperium anthology - contained the short story "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe, which I had fun reading and which seemed to be "on the same level" as I was, having the Marines be pretty badass but also showing that they are not invulnerable (both from enemy fire as well as their own arrogance).
Seaward wrote:We must remember a couple things about that, really. We must remember he probably didn't break out the calculator and do the arithmetic, and that ten's a nice round number versus, say, 23. Or 13. Or 17.45.
We must remember he was talking about Heresy-era Imperial Army, rather than 40K Imperial Guard.
We must remember that if table top rules are genuine reflections of Space Marine power, then he's dead wrong, because you'd be an idiot to take one Tactical Marine over 10 Guardsmen - the 10 Guardsmen would be superior.
Hmm, a couple thoughts on that:
1. I think it's important to consider that, even if (obviously) highly inaccurate, this quote does indicate a factor closer to 1:10 and not 1:20 or even higher, which is where I see a lot of novels going.
2. The same could be said about Heresy-era Space Marines compared to 40k ones.
3. The actual quote equates 100 Marines to 1.000 other troops. With these numbers, the comparison becomes somewhat more tactical rather than a straight shoot-out. 100 Marines can easily deploy in a way that 1.000 Guardsmen cannot, taking on individual parts of the enemy force rather than facing the full blow that would come with a standard assault. Which is exactly how Space Marines tend to operate (at least given GW's descriptions). In other words: numerical advantage can only be fully exploited if all your men's firepower can be utilized simultaneously. As has been mentioned before, it depends a lot on circumstances. I'm just a firm believer that a Marine will be seriously threatened if facing the Imperial Guard head-on. At the same time, however, I acknowledge that most of the time the Marines would find ways to avoid rushing into trouble. They're not a bunch of Ogryns relying solely on brute force, as much as people tend to stress their supposed invulnerability and superhuman combat prowess. To me, this just makes it way too easy and falsifies their methods of operation. It's just like people only seeing raw damage or armour protection when looking at Marine bolters and power armour, yet these attributes are actually not much different from what other Imperial organizations use - their true superiority comes from other factors.
im2randomghgh wrote:1, Did I say it did? feth sakes bro.
Again, still waiting for that answer.
im2randomghgh wrote:
2. I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the fists.
While avoiding my main point for the upteenth time.
im2randomghgh wrote:
3. No, I am saying we never argued over whether or not they are codex-compliant.
When DeathlyAngel said this:
@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.
@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.
Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.
im2randomghgh wrote:I agreed with the message, if not the phrasing.
I'll quote it with only the parts I agree with.
@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.
Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.
Not......... quite. They are not specialized in siege actions like the White Scars are with mobile warfare or the Raven Guard with stealth. They do not orient around seige. (Forgive me, your wording kidn of make sit sound like they are specialised to a degree like the White Scars)They are described as the epitome of a Codex Chapter, seigework would be something they are good at, but more of a supplementary thing to their Codex adherence. (They are after all repeatedly referred to as an epitome of a Codex Chapter. That fluff has not been changed at all.). They do incorporate their Primarch’s teachings and traditions, but they also desire to follow Guilliman’s Codex as closely as they can. (That’s what the Marine Codex says after all)
im2randomghgh wrote:I agreed with the message, if not the phrasing.
I'll quote it with only the parts I agree with.
@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not entirely yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter (though are still a flexible force) who incorporate their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not necessarily better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.
Hold that next to the other one and see the differences.
As you can see there are only a few key things that are different in my...paraphrasing...of it. Plus, it's now correct fluff wise.
Not......... quite. They are not specialized in siege actions like the White Scars are with mobile warfare or the Raven Guard with stealth. They do not orient around seige. (Forgive me, your wording kidn of make sit sound like they are specialised to a degree like the White Scars)They are described as the epitome of a Codex Chapter, seigework would be something they are good at, but more of a supplementary thing to their Codex adherence. (They are after all repeatedly referred to as an epitome of a Codex Chapter. That fluff has not been changed at all.). They do incorporate their Primarch’s teachings and traditions, but they also desire to follow Guilliman’s Codex as closely as they can. (That’s what the Marine Codex says after all)
Obviously not to the degree of the scars. They are not a fully compliant chapter even. The Imperial Fists are just siege specialists. It's what they do. They have the training, the experience etc. but their force is not organised any differently. And tbh using them for anything but siege is probably a bit wasteful, considering some chapter out there is probably involved in a siege, and could be doing whatever it is the fists are doing.
And the first time I read it I found it weird that they were so proud they almost went to war with the ultramarines, and then all of a sudden changed their minds and became codex compliant to the point that their armour probably secretly has a blue undercoat lol
im2randomghgh wrote:
Obviously not to the degree of the scars. They are not a fully compliant chapter even. The Imperial Fists are just siege specialists. It's what they do. They have the training, the experience etc. but their force is not organised any differently. And tbh using them for anything but siege is probably a bit wasteful, considering some chapter out there is probably involved in a siege, and could be doing whatever it is the fists are doing.
Not quite through added training if that's what oyu are trying to say. The Fists are suited to siege warfare because of their no retreat character.
Deathwatch Rites of Battle.
There is one particular method of warfare in which the Imperial Fists stubbornness means they are naturally suited: the art of siege. This specialty can be counted as a result of the Chapter’s character and doctrines rather than an adherence to any particular tactics or equipment.
..The chapter is quite willing to engage the enemy in open battle though, and does not seek urban or siege engagements above any other methods of war.
An Imperial Fist won’t dedicate any more training to siege warfare than an Ultramarine would, (They after all are the epitome of a Codex Chapter and follow it closely) but his character will mean he is more stubborn and less likely to withdraw in urban environments.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And the first time I read it I found it weird that they were so proud they almost went to war with the ultramarines, and then all of a sudden changed their minds and became codex compliant to the point that their armour probably secretly has a blue undercoat lol
Dorn is described as only taking issue with the breaking of the Legions in Codex Black Templars. He apparently has no issue with the tactical contents of the Codex Astartes, only the breaking of the Legions.
Gree wrote:
Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex.
Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
Gree wrote:
Except the average size of the legions was ten thousand men. This is clearly stated in the Marine Codex.
Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
Surely the mere presence of SM in any given theatre suggests that they've got there aboard their own inter-galactic transport, complete with drop pods, support vessels, supplies etc etc.
Much as I like SM, and Guard,and all the fluff which makes up nice toys and a good game, I still tend to think that if I was coming into range of some planet with a war on it, I'd be rather tempted to flatten the opposition from long range (ie space) than mess about getting face to face and doing things with a sword. So much less effort?
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
Seaward wrote:Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
Um, no?
The Word Bearers, the second largest of all Legions, had a hundred thousand Space Marines.
For comparison the Thousand Sons, the smallest Legion, had about ten thousand, and the Space Wolves had 13,000 unless that has really been retconned.
Where in the Grey Knights codex does it say that the Legions numbered at least a hundred thousand men? Or Prospero Burns, for that matter.
iproxtaco wrote:Stormtroopers are the Imperium's Special Forces. They're not just veterans with Hot-shot weapons. They're trained from infancy to become the best mortal soldiers the Imperium can field. Asartes are in their own little category, a mix of Special forces and Shock Troops. Generally, they operate in small detachments, probably multiples of a hundred, and are tasked with lighting strikes against enemy command posts and commanders, and other vital areas. They smash their way through, kill any characters or destroy vital resources, then move out. They don't usually fight pitched battles, it's only when the Imperium is desperate.
Wait, so if Stormtroopers are Special Forces, that what role do SM fulfill? Posterboys?
Heavy shock troops, either used in initial assaults or "cleanup" like breaking a siege/stalemate.
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
So what?
My opponet does not consider anything outside the Codices canon, therefore it is rather useless to apply it in a discussion with him if he will not recognize it since ''Codices never contridict themselves'', by his claim.
Seaward wrote:Not that it's all that germane to the discussion, but this is no longer accurate information. Midway through the Horus Heresy series, GW decided to bump the founding Legion size up by a factor of ten. Ten thousand men becomes one hundred thousand. The initial four books (at least) of the series were written with the original 10K number, and everything since (if I recall correctly) Prospero Burns - including the Grey Knights codex - uses the newer, updated figure.
Um, no?
Um, yes. My source is in the spoiler tags, from a discussion on B&C a while back:
Spoiler:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Not quite. We were told by the IP manager, at a Horus Heresy meeting (when I asked) that the official canon Legion sizes were 100,000, as laid out in the Chaos Codex and HH: Collected Visions.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Some Internet Guy wrote:The more recent Codex Space Marines disagrees:
QUOTE (CSM @ page 6)
"All was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines -- the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable willpower, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor."
(Yes, this is from Mat Ward.)
We can point to loads of codices with the old figures, I know. It's not even BL versus the studio, as the first 12 books of the Heresy series all go with the 10,000 figures, too. It's the past versus the present.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Some Internet Guy wrote:By IP manager, I suppose you mean Alan Merrett? If he's turned to the 100,000 (dark) side, I suppose everything will start to turn towards it, but my point is this: the fluff that has been established has always favored the 10,000 side, and it fits that number best. If it's changed to 100,000, I'm predicting that there are going to be all kinds of problems and inconsistencies that result. And it's just not necessary, in my opinion. 10,000 worked just fine.
Yeah. Actually, Alan's not turning to it, it's his figure. He was the one to begin using it, in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. I asked a couple of meetings ago, citing that the HH series, the IA articles, and the Space Marine codex said 10,000. The Chaos codex and HH: Collected Visions said 100,000. I wanted to know which one we were using, because I needed to note how many Word Bearers knelt in the dust of Monarchia.
Alan said to use the 100,000 figure, because that was the accurate one. We went on to have a hell of an awesome discussion about the sheer scale of the whole deal, but ultimately, it was decided then and there.
EDIT: Before that discussion, I was a proponent of the 10,000 figure, myself. But, damn, that talk changed my perspective. I kid you not, Alan knows everything about 40K. Listening to him in full explanation mode is something pretty freaking killer.
The Word Bearers, the second largest of all Legions, had a hundred thousand Space Marines.
The author of their Horus Heresy series book says otherwise - they had at least 140K prior to Calth.
For comparison the Thousand Sons, the smallest Legion, had about ten thousand, and the Space Wolves had 13,000 unless that has really been retconned.
It's been retconned. ADB says to expect to see the "new" number start showing up in the latest versions of the relevant codices.
Where in the Grey Knights codex does it say that the Legions numbered at least a hundred thousand men?
It doesn't, at least not outright. The "new" number of Second Founding chapters heavily implies that there were a hell of a lot more Space Marines running around than an average Legion size of 10,000 would make possible. Consider; that's 90,000 guys, assuming no casualties in the Heresy at all. Divide that by 400, and you get a mere 225 Marines per Second Founding chapter. Doesn't make sense.
Gree wrote:I am quite well aware of that. I own every book in the Heresy seriea and Collected Visions. It's just not part of the contect of the Codices.
So what?
My opponet does not consider anything outside the Codices canon, therefore it is rather useless to apply it in a discussion with him if he will not recognize it since ''Codices never contridict themselves'', by his claim.
I'm trying to point out they do.
He's a fool. Codices contradict themselves just as much as novels contradict codices. After all previous codices had SM as coming from prisoners ad such but now they're warrior monks and all that. Codices are what makes novels have so many errors like previously codices had Nids use Warp travel and OldCrons use Inertialess drives but now Nids use Narvhals and Newcrons use Webway and Wormholes but previous Novels still have Nids use the warp etc so contradiction.
Its a pain in the ass for all us fluff lovers but GW don't care
The Chaos Marines codex actually states that the Legions numbered hundreds of thousands Space Marines each.
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a small sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Hell FFG tries to have a sense of scale when they have blub state that the potential amount of IG troops that have been marched into he Jericho Reach, its a Deathwatch rpg setting, number into 4 or 6 billion.
edit: did you mean hundreds of thousands? If you did BL and GW suck utterly at when it comes to sense of scale.
The Chaos Marines codex actually states that the Legions numbered hundreds of Space Marines each.
So, if the Word Bearers, the Legion with the second greatest amount of Marines, numbered "merely" 140,000, then the current fluff on the matter is actually less than what is in the Chaos Space Marines codex.
Did you mean hundreds of thousands?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a smalll sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Though they do add some support to the "Space Marines are godly on the battlefield" camp.
And it actually wasn't done for scale, from what I've been told, but was simply a matter of logistics.
Void__Dragon wrote:So basically all Legion number statements before First Heretic are now retconned?
Meh. Whatever.
Yes, is this a problem? How does giving the HHSM's more marines change things? In truth it tries and make 40k or to be more accurate 30k have a smalll sense of scale but the new numbers are still utterly and ridiculously small for conquering a galaxy.
Though they do add some support to the "Space Marines are godly on the battlefield" camp.
And it actually wasn't done for scale, from what I've been told, but was simply a matter of logistics.
Dear god Its just so stupid that I have to do this eve though it could be against the rules:
Oh well we at least have the Imperial army and can rationalize that they are the ones to occupy planets while SM's are the Shock troops.
Why is this stupid you ask? Look at this:
Peak strength of Armed Forces WWII(a friend of mine sent me this, could be wrong) : USSR - 12.5 million Allies USA - 12.364 million Allies Germany - 10 million Axis Japan - 6.095 million Axis France - 5 million - but knocked out of the war in six weeks 1940 China - 5 million Allies UK - 4.683 million Allies Italy - 4.5 million Axis - knocked out of the war in mid 1943 India - 2.15 million - Fought with Great Britain Poland - 1 million - knocked out of the war in 1939 Canada - 780,000 Allies Australia - 680,000 Allies Yugoslavia - 500,000 Occupied but some fought as an insurgency against the Germans and some fought with the Germans - Croatians Romania - 600,000 - Fought on German side Bulgaria - 450,000 - Fought on German side Hungary - 350,000 - Fought on German side + 20 to 30 other countries with smaller numbers contributed
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
Well, depends on your definition of "godly". Also, I didn't accuse you of saying Draigo level, nor do I think the codices are inherently moar better in terms of canonicity to BL.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the only thing thats makes any sense is that Marines are godly and they have to be cause if all the bloody enhancements they get just makes SM 10 times stronger than normal humans, all I have to say is epic fail. To me Marine's are BL godly, to be clear I don't mean up to Draigo level cause Draigo is fail and from a codexbtw, cause they have to be to make any sense of all their enhancements and numbers. Thats why I consider FW's take ion marines stupid.
Well, depends on your definition of "godly". Also, I didn't accuse you of saying Draigo level, nor do I think the codices are inherently moar better in terms of canonicity to BL.
What is FW's take on Marines?
IIRC, which could be wrong as right now I'm a bit drunk and don't have the PDF's with me, 200 Dark Angel SM's die and the Dark Angel Chapter Master got his ass handed to him and for what you ask? They took these losses to destroy a Spaceport whose absence was shown to be utterly irrelevant later in the war.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just checked out some sources: the Dark Angels lost 15 men to fighting the rebels and that was for the early days of the fighting to destroy the Space port. After eight days they fought the Alpha Legion lord and his friends and thats where the Chapter Master got his ass kicked. The full battle for the Space port cost the Dark Angels 200 hundred marines. This would not be much of a problem to me if the Marines weren't limited to just a 1000 members.
As to your Deathwatch quote, Gree, I find it odd because this would actually imply they don't follow the codex to the degree stated in the Marine codex.
It says their siege talent is their character and their doctrine.
The definition of doctrine is: "Military doctrine is the concise expression of how military forces contribute to campaigns, major operations, battles, and engagements.
It is a guide to action, not hard and fast rules. Doctrine provides a common frame of reference across the military. It helps standardize operations, facilitating readiness by establishing common ways of accomplishing military tasks.
Doctrine links theory, history, experimentation, and practice. Its objective is to foster initiative and creative thinking. Doctrine provides the military an authoritative body of statements on how military forces conduct operations and provides a common lexicon for use by military planners and leaders".
Does that sound like the codex astartes to you at all? It probably should. The deathwatch thing is implying that they have their own, distinct, urban/siege specialist doctrine.
Not arguing anything, I know they adhere to the codex as much as possible, but this is just am...amusing way of phrasing it, on Deathwatch's part.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:That is exactly how it works.
The Space Marines are the invaders, they don't really spend as much time occupying planets themselves after they have been brought to compliance, leaving a contingent of Imperial Army with a newly instated Planetary Governor (Though there are a few occasional exceptions).
Edit: Oh and of course they have a lot of support from the Imperial Army and Mars, obviously.
But, yeah, GW often has a bad case of scale, a million Astartes for the entire galaxy is pretty stupid for example.
In any universe other than 40k where a single battle always, always, ALWAYS decides the fate of the entire planet the SM wouldn't be all that helpful.
With a million space marines for the galaxy, it is a wonder we EVER hear about their battles.
im2randomghgh wrote:As to your Deathwatch quote, Gree, I find it odd because this would actually imply they don't follow the codex to the degree stated in the Marine codex.
It then says two sentences before that they are the ''epitome of a Codex Chapter''
im2randomghgh wrote:It says their siege talent is their character and their doctrine.
The definition of doctrine is: "Military doctrine is the concise expression of how military forces contribute to campaigns, major operations, battles, and engagements.
It is a guide to action, not hard and fast rules. Doctrine provides a common frame of reference across the military. It helps standardize operations, facilitating readiness by establishing common ways of accomplishing military tasks.
Doctrine links theory, history, experimentation, and practice. Its objective is to foster initiative and creative thinking. Doctrine provides the military an authoritative body of statements on how military forces conduct operations and provides a common lexicon for use by military planners and leaders".
Does that sound like the codex astartes to you at all? It probably should. The deathwatch thing is implying that they have their own, distinct, urban/siege specialist doctrine.
Not arguing anything, I know they adhere to the codex as much as possible, but this is just am...amusing way of phrasing it, on Deathwatch's part.
Doctrine for me, would be that the Fists contribute their a seige battle by being more stubbron than say an Ultramarine and being able to hold a position more doggedly. They would not say, dedicate more training to it than any other form of warfare, they don't have a special secret tactic that no other chapter has. They would use the same tactics as an Ultramairne in seige warfare but be a hell of a lot more stubborn in it's application.
Of course in the same article it's noted that the only appearant difference betwewen them and the Ultramarines is the Fists' stubborn nature and that they might not retreat were an Ultramarine would. It notes that in pretty much all other Aspects they are a Codex Chapter.
So the Ultramarines would be like a 100% percent Codex chapter while the Fists would be like a 99% percent Codex Chapter.
But really, each and every chapter has it's own unique training and every thing, and the IF were noted in the HH books as being the best at constructing defenses too, so I assume they would at least have extra training in that particular area.
Deatwatch rpg: Rites of Battle pg 98 wrote:War on All Fronts
The Achilus Crusade is a vast undertaking, one so prodigious as to hold the attentions of the High Lords of Terra themselves. As such, Lord Tetrarchus feels the gaze of powers far higher even than him, and has more to prove than any man save those gifted, some would say cursed, with the title ‘Warmaster’ can know. Hundreds of worlds shall stand or fall; billions of faithful warriors shall live or die, all at the word of the master of the Achilus Crusade.
So huge is the military and logistical effort required to maintain the crusade that no single administrative body is in possession of the complete picture. Thousands of Imperial Guard regiments have been committed to the conflict, yet scant few battle honours have been confirmed or allowed to be celebrated on the worlds of their founding. Of the dozens of Cadian regiments committed to the crusade, only two have been decorated for example. For every regiment whose efforts and sacrifices are officially recognised, hundreds more go uncelebrated, the deaths of thousands of bold men and women unmarked and unlamented. The numbers of Imperial Guard fed into this never-ending meat grinder can only be guessed at. At the crusade’s outset, it is possible that as many as a billion soldiers marched to reconquer the Jericho Reach. As the crusade found itself beset by far greater opposition than anticipated, this number steadily increased until an estimated four billion troops were in action. The Officio Munitorum’s best estimates suggest that with the committing of the theatre reserves formally held back by Lord Militant Achilus as many as six billion troops may be operational. How many of these are serving in front line combat units and how many in support echelons and service arms is a matter of heated, if ultimately futile debate amongst Officio Munitorum adepts.....snip of the rest
Lynata wrote:Then they should plan their assaults accordingly. I'm sorry, I fail to see the issue.
I get it, many people simply prefer them to be able to wade through a hail of shots or charge head-on into a fortified position without the defenders even having a chance to take them down. If that's how you like them, that's your interpretation. Mine happens to be somewhat more gritty. As I said, it's not really something worth debating about.
They don't, though. It's like in the Taros Campaign from Forgeworld when Astartes try to take out the Governor, except whereas that was supposed to be a mistake, that's what would happen a lot of the time. You don't just get to hit the enemy general and not end up facing retaliation. With the Astartes numbering as few as they do, and sending a few hundred at most to the majority of conflicts, they'd get hammered if they were fighting anything like a total war scenario when small arms fire penetrates their armour after a few shots. If there were even only equal numbers they'd likely take sufficient shots to lose too many men to take it, let alone should armour support arrive (that said, in Taros they didn't really seem to have much of a plan for extraction, and if that's standard, then they'd like take horrendous losses each time (enough to basically be taken out of the rest of war).
It's not so much because that's how I want to view it (although they really should be significantly better armoured than to be taken down by half a dozen shots from small arms - really, for their cost and rarity that's pathetic) but because I don't see how it makes sense otherwise. As you wish.
im2randomghgh wrote:And the IA have OP marines too. A Crisis suit would be worth several marines in a shoot out, but in the Taros Campaign they had marines and crisis suits at about 1-1
Out of curiosity, do you have sources for this? Because in 'Kill Team', if I recall correctly a Deathwatch Astartes with a bolter is capable of taking down Crisis Suits as well.
So because the Astartes in a Forgeworld book neither have a plan for extraction nor have support from a nearby Imperial Guard regiment keeping the mainstay of the enemy forces busy they have to be beefed up to invulmode in order to not get shot into little bits as soon as the buddies of whoever they just killed can gather their troops from the surrounding areas?
Well, that's just not how I see it working, but I guess we can only agree to disagree on that.
As far as their cost and rarity are concerned, you have to keep in mind that 40k's Marines are just a remnant of a force that was initially much, much larger. And their cost would be justified by them not being 100.000 times better than another trooper, but chiefly by being better at all, by a large gap (though not as large as many novels claim). When your deployment capabilities are limited, you want to get the best boots you have on the ground, and every little bit will help. This does not only go for the Astartes - do you really think the SoB are a cost-efficient army? Hah.
Lynata wrote:So because the Astartes in a Forgeworld book neither have a plan for extraction nor have support from a nearby Imperial Guard regiment keeping the mainstay of the enemy forces busy they have to be beefed up to invulmode in order to not get shot into little bits as soon as the buddies of whoever they just killed can gather their troops from the surrounding areas?
There are many battles the SM's can't depend on either the IG or Navy to help them. If they can't survive without the aid of either than they are a joke.
<text redacted; sarcasm tags don't make a post less rude, or less of a violation of Rule #1--Janthkin>
Lynata wrote:As far as their cost and rarity are concerned, you have to keep in mind that 40k's Marines are just a remnant of a force that was initially much, much larger.
Eh. Nine Loyalist Legions with an average of 100,000 men apiece in 30K, and 1000 Loyalist chapters with 1000 men apiece in 40K. They're roughly the same size as you were, unless you meant they're a remnant of what there was before the Heresy even kicked off.
And their cost would be justified by them not being 100.000 times better than another trooper, but chiefly by being better at all, by a large gap (though not as large as many novels claim).
That gap's not just claimed by the novels, though. All modern codices claim it, too. It's GW's stance, like it or not.
This does not only go for the Astartes - do you really think the SoB are a cost-efficient army?
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