Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.
Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.
Eh, it's as good as any attempt to come up with an in-universe reason for why Draigo is so over the top. Still doesn't work though. Turning Draigo into some sort of Daemon Prince type critter would probably take a fair chunk more power than even the Grey Knights can put out, and its not even like they were trying to do so either. Wasn't he pulled into the warp and assumed to be lost?
Then there's the minor point that he doesn't have the Daemon special rule.
There is some discussion of whether the Saints (Adepta Sororitas) are actually incarantions of the Emperors will etc and they don't have the Daemon trait either - perhaps they should have the "holy" trait which functions exactly the same except holy promethium etc heals wounds
Of course there is also the argument that has anyone (non Chaos) in universe actually seen Draigo do any of the things he has claimed - is it all just his warp adled imagination running wild
- or maybe he is a Daemon that thinks he is Draigo?
I only seek to rectify Draigo within the fluff as it exists now, without falling back on the bad writing excuse (which, it is. I hold no illusions about this; however, as it is in my purview of "Canon", I should like it to fit in universe better than HE'S Awesome.)
My rebut of the idea lots of Eldar make the Eldar Gods (who are Daemons as I understand it, just a label, not "Evil"), is that the Eldar gods are capable of more than Draigo, as well as the unified purpose of all of the Grey Knights as well as the extreme psychic abilities could be enough to warrant a Draigo "Daemon".
All three, Omegus. I can at least tolerate the stuff, although I came to the sudden realization that Draigo is a horrible, horrible character, and Mat Ward is a shockingly bad writer. He redeems himself through coming up with some decent ideas. Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.
iproxtaco wrote:Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.
This is what I see him as.
A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.
That's the kind of guy he comes across as in his interviews, the two I have seen which have shaped my opinion of him.
Although perhaps incongruously, the thing I dislike most about Matthew Ward is not his writing, but the shortening of his first name to "Mat". I mean, wtf, what, you're too cool for that extra letter? Your name is Matthew, the diminutive of which is Matt, deal with it.
Omegus wrote:The thing I hate most about Matthew Ward is the shortening of his first name to "Mat". I mean, wtf, what, you're too cool for that extra letter? Your name is Matthew, the diminutive of which is Matt, deal with it.
Does he himself shorten it to Mat? Really?
I've only ever heard other people refer to himself as Mat Ward.
CpatTom wrote:My rebut of the idea lots of Eldar make the Eldar Gods (who are Daemons as I understand it, just a label, not "Evil"), is that the Eldar gods are capable of more than Draigo
The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
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Void__Dragon wrote:A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.
iproxtaco wrote:Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.
This is what I see him as.
A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.
That's the kind of guy he comes across as in his interviews, the two I have seen which have shaped my opinion of him.
I've read two, and to be perfectly honest they didn't give the same impression that the quality of writing does. He seemed to know what he was talking about, his reasons were clear, but that could just be his own conviction, and the fact they were Q/A's, he obviously had time to work out his answers a bit more.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
That's ignoring a lot of context.
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.
Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
That's ignoring a lot of context.
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.
Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.
Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.
Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
That's ignoring a lot of context.
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.
Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.
Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.
Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.
Still ignoring context. Nurgle literally tests his diseases by giving them to Isha, I think that would cause a little bit of harm. Then she cures them, she can any disease. Draigo can't cure himself of being a stupid mary-sue.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
That's ignoring a lot of context.
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.
Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.
Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.
I think the reason that Slaanesh couldn't destroy and absorbe Khaine was due to Khorne's intervention. Khaine was both an aspect of Khorne and a Eldar god, so both Dark Powers felt that they had dibs, they ended up fighting over the shattered bits of Khaine that were left after Slaanesh crumped him, which gave the shard the out they needed to settle in on the Craftworlds.
daveNYC wrote:I think the reason that Slaanesh couldn't destroy and absorbe Khaine was due to Khorne's intervention. Khaine was both an aspect of Khorne and a Eldar god, so both Dark Powers felt that they had dibs, they ended up fighting over the shattered bits of Khaine that were left after Slaanesh crumped him, which gave the shard the out they needed to settle in on the Craftworlds.
"Exhausted from the struggle (Referring specifically to the struggle with Khaine), the Great Enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the Eldar God completely. Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the Warp forever."
- Eldar 4e codex, page 6
Do note that Slaanesh was specifically noted to be stronger than Khaine because he/she had glutted on the power of the entire Eldar pantheon sans Cegorach and Khaine himself.
Also, I think the Khorne intervening might be outdated fluff, Khorne isn't even mentioned in the most recent retelling of the fight.
I can't be bothered to look it up at the moment, but there is also a quote about Khorne being all miffed about Slaanesh usurping "one of his own" when it came to KMK.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.
That's ignoring a lot of context.
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.
Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.
Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.
Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.
Still ignoring context. Nurgle literally tests his diseases by giving them to Isha, I think that would cause a little bit of harm. Then she cures them, she can any disease. Draigo can't cure himself of being a stupid mary-sue.
Still not getting my point. Nurgle has the power to imprison other gods and give them diseases. Nurgle cannot do this to Draigo. Draigo however can burn down Nurgle's domain. That is godlike power.
BrainDeleted wrote:But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.
So he is a god like being that gets little done in actuality. Just like the rest of the gods; seeing as they get little done in the Imperium. I mean for all the power the Chaos gods have they get very little done permanently. Sure they can destroy scores of Imperial citizens, soldiers, and Astarte's but none of their victories last.
People are reading into his fluff all wrong if you ask me.
It's not that Draigo can't get a lasting victory against Chaos, and the Gods simply watch his futile exploits with amusement.
It's that Draigo is torturing the Chaos Gods, destroying their works again and again, to let them know that their power is nothing in the face of his pure awesomeness.
Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.
I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...
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Brother Coa wrote:Wow 11 pages, didn't know that Draigo is so popular these days...
Because people like to hate him, and I like to defend him
If the Chaos Gods really cared about Draigo and his actions, I'm sure that Tzeentch could persuade M'kar to release his curse on Draigo. Since he hasn't, I'm forced to conclude that Draigo isn't doing much damage at all.
BrainDeleted wrote:But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.
Nurgle gives Isha diseases which do absolutely nothing.
Nope, he judges his diseases by how long they take her to cure and how much they make her suffer. He knows that his diseases won't kill the goddess of healing. If he wanted to kill her he'd presumably eat her or give her to Slaanesh to be raped/eaten to death.
Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.
I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...
See, claiming it's a hate wagon implies that people have joined it simply because it's there. The reality is that a multitude of people have read his fluff and agreed that it's bad. More power to you for holding onto your own opinion, but you can't claim that everyone has the right to an opinion then dismiss the opinions of others as a hate wagon.
Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.
I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...
See, claiming it's a hate wagon implies that people have joined it simply because it's there. The reality is that a multitude of people have read his fluff and agreed that it's bad. More power to you for holding onto your own opinion, but you can't claim that everyone has the right to an opinion then dismiss the opinions of others as a hate wagon.
I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
bombboy1252 wrote:
I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
I wanted to believe this. I wanted to believe this badly for a long time. Then I looked through the Grey Knights Codex......
bombboy1252 wrote:
I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
I wanted to believe this. I wanted to believe this badly for a long time. Then I looked through the Grey Knights Codex......
I actually like parts of the grey knights codex. Its 10x better than the Space Wolf codex. And the only problem I have with it is the bringing the 3,000 Grey Knights down to 1,000 Grey Knights.
Thats it.
Draigo is kinda ridiculous but its not as ridiculous as Lucius the Eternal and Abaddon the Disposable
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
Well, excluding Draigo AND the Bloodtide thing....Because those 2 get the most flak...
Purifiers.
Seriously, codex is inconsistent as feth.
"GREY KNIGHTS ARE HUNDRED PERCENT INCORRUPTIBLE"
"PURIFIERS ARE EVEN MORE INCORRUPTIBLE THAN GREY KNIGHTS"
"CROWE MAKES ALL OTHER PURIFIERS LOOK LIKE SLAANESH-WORSHIPPING SERIAL RAPISTS IN TERMS OF INCORRUPTIBILITY"
Actually I am fine with that. More purer like the Jedi Masters call themselves purer than the pure. It just means they are incorruptable, and can't be easily killed.
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
a. Grey Knight killing everyone they have been helping them ( Guard, Mechanicus, SIsters and even Marines, of course because AStartes are their brothers after all they first try to erase their memory. If they reject or somehow erasing isn't successful - bolt shell in the head can work to ).
b. A Grey Knight get swallowed by Great Unclean One. The Gret Unclean one exploded 10 mnutes after that and that Grey Knight that gotten swallowed just came out from the pile of , clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
c. A Grey Knight Terminator squad get cornered by Chaos and Tyranid foes, and what they do? They call a freaking orbital bombardment on themselves and blast both Chaos and Tyranids into bits in wide radius. Some time after that ( like minutes literally ),thet GET UP being under like 2 tons of rubble and jusr clean their armor stood there proud of their deed.
The fact they now use ghosts to aid them, have anti-plasma armor, use Daemonhost to their aid ( did I mentioned they hate Daemons more than North Korea hate US? ) and have walkers that can teleport into the battlefield ( seriously, DredKnight is so overpowered and + he looks like that cargo robot from "Aliens", just with guns and soem more high-tect stuff ) makes them more OP then usual armies.
On the other hand, I liked how they act at Malan'tai ( returning the Craftworld to Eldar, even Guard it from any intruders until Eldar arrived ) and saving the people at Beroghast ( by slaying entire Ork WARGHHH!!! on the planet ), but that's about it that I like in new codex.
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
a. Grey Knight killing everyone they have been helping them ( Guard, Mechanicus, SIsters and even Marines, of course because AStartes are their brothers after all they first try to erase their memory. If they reject or somehow erasing isn't successful - bolt shell in the head can work to ).
Not new, this is part of their background.
Brother Coa wrote:
b. A Grey Knight get swallowed by Great Unclean One. The Gret Unclean one exploded 10 mnutes after that and that Grey Knight that gotten swallowed just came out from the pile of , clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
Terminator Armour. And just to put this into perspective, the GUO ate something that is anathema to daemons to the point that they recoil from them and died when said being used his anti-daemon powers to blast his way out.
Brother Coa wrote:
c. A Grey Knight Terminator squad get cornered by Chaos and Tyranid foes, and what they do? They call a freaking orbital bombardment on themselves and blast both Chaos and Tyranids into bits in wide radius. Some time after that ( like minutes literally ),thet GET UP being under like 2 tons of rubble and jusr clean their armor stood there proud of their deed.
And this is where in the Codex? Seriously, this isn't even in the book AFAIK. Even if it were, if both Grimaldus and Mephiston can crawl their way out of a building, why can't terminators?
Brother Coa wrote:
The fact they now use ghosts to aid them, have anti-plasma armor, use Daemonhost to their aid ( did I mentioned they hate Daemons more than North Korea hate US? ) and have walkers that can teleport into the battlefield ( seriously, DredKnight is so overpowered and + he looks like that cargo robot from "Aliens", just with guns and soem more high-tect stuff ) makes them more OP then usual armies.
The bolded parts are just silly. They don't have "anti-plasma armour", you bring an Inquisitor with rare archaeotech that destabilizes plasma. Dreadknights are hardly overpowered. Finally, if the Grey Knights are so overpowered, how come they're consistently placing around the other good Codices at major tournaments?
I think Coa was going for Over Powered with his acronym. The broken arrow tactic is under 'The Pandemonium of Sondheim V'. Oddly, their Grand Master in this story seems to be named after the Kai Gun from the old Chaos Dex.
You guys are so cute when you go all off topic and derail the thread with your petty nerd rage.
Subject: Draigo
Seriously.
We left off with Draigo being a living over-powered Saint, or probably dead and replaced with a form of warp "Daemon."
I think he is still alive and walks the righteous path through the warp. All things being illusion and all things being possible, Draigo is master of his own fate. No daemon or false god has power over him. Also the Grey Knights have different geneseed then the other Astartes. I don't see a problem with him signing autographs for corrupted Primarchs. The dude in question is a puss filled chaos lackey. Who cares what you think he once was. That was 10,000 years ago. Draigo is the new champ now. Followers of Chaos can get in line for their own autograph. Draigo is handing them out.
Why would Draigo need to take a bath? That is the lamest arguement I have heard. The dude is like 10 feet tall, hundreds of years old, wacked out on Psychic Emporer Geneseed, and wearing Nuclear Powered TDA and he time travels. Someone that crazy doesn't need to take baths. I just don't think it is remotely high on his list of things to do this decade. Maybe he has a spell for it. But really I think his armor probably has a disinfecting button somewhere.
Common guys. Your petty little beefs with Ward and the Purifiers are so boring and like page 2. If you don't have anything else to say, its okay, you can stop. Were on like page 12 now, and we understand you don't like Draigo or anything else Mat(t) Ward has written. Nobody is asking you to change your mind.
I just dont like how "Good" he is in-game. I mean seriously, he just runs around the field swinging his badasshammer and crushing foes to oblivion. What that you say? Orbital Bombard him? Oh wait, crap hes Eternal Warrior and just survived the FREAKIN' ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!! How you ask? But sticking his shield up.
JohnnoM wrote:I just dont like how "Good" he is in-game. I mean seriously, he just runs around the field swinging his badasshammer and crushing foes to oblivion. What that you say? Orbital Bombard him? Oh wait, crap hes Eternal Warrior and just survived the FREAKIN' ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!! How you ask? But sticking his shield up.
Just to be clear, your beef with a 275 point unit is the fact that he has eternal warrior and a storm shield?
I've seen crisis suits survive orbital bombardments, guess that makes the Tau-dex overpowered.
Brother Coa wrote:You are right, Draigo it is ( I can't start explaining why my points are liek that when people won't read them ).
Right, anyone who disagrees with you hasn't read your post. Got it.
Spoiler:
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
That is what I don't liek in GK codex and why are they overpowered.
The plasma siphon is a piece of wargear with a 12" radius that goes on a T3 HQ model that none of the power lists are fielding anyway. Please don't derail the thread.
bombboy1252 wrote:I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
Ah, that's all nice and everything, but the fact is, people arguing for the stupidity of Draigo are doing so from an informed position, considering we're all citing the written material in our arguments. Conversely, the pro-Draigo camp's argument comes from the realm of make believe and apologetics, such as "Oh Draigo is all about tragedy because he only repeatedly owns the most powerful beings in the setting, rather than just once and for all" or "Draigo is a Greater Daemon Prince Saint of the Grey Emperor Knights."
So the bandwagon accusation can work both ways. In this case, you are the bandwagon-jumper, hopping on the "Ward hate is the norm, so I'm going to be a special unique snowflake by staunchly defending him" wagon. Unfortunately, you made a mistake picking this as your crusade, because while I'm all for people forming their own opinion, when it comes to Draigo, you are simply
And frankly, admitting it would garner you far more respect than digging in your heels and going ad hominem.
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
That is what I don't liek in GK codex and why are they overpowered.
Now please don't get off topic.
It most certainly was in the old fluff, going all the way back to their first appearances in the RoC era books.
The 2nd point is no more implausible than any of the other myriad of times heroes are swallowed and kill their foe from the inside out, it's a staple of the heroic genre. And, of course, this act is carried out by a "named" special character.
I think you're totally misrepresenting the orbital bombardment as well, which is no real surprise. For starters they're in the lower areas of the Temple when they bombardment starts, which is of course covered in spore chimneys. Furthermore it states that the Gk "weather the storm of barrage bombs" and then the survivors leave before they are overwhelmed.
Which is a far cry from the way you've just described the situation.
I've no idea really where you're getting or going with the plasma resistant armour thing, we'll put that down to linguistic misunderstandings methinks.
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
But they did. Just look at the First War for Armageddon. Whether or not you've heard about it before the 5th ed Codex matters little.
Brother Coa wrote:
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
The Purifier in question is Anval Thawn, the justicar upgrade character that you can buy for Terminators. You know, the guy who can't die. Presumably him being a purifier is a typo though, otherwise I imagine he'd have access to Cleansing Flame, which he doesn't. It also doesn't take 10 minutes for Ku'gath to be chopped from the inside, it takes more like 10 seconds. And, again, he doesn't explode for no reason, Thawn carves his way out with his Nemesis Halberd.
Brother Coa wrote:
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
Reading through the Codex, I can admit that it happened, but not in the way you describe it: They were inside a ruin beneath a Tyranid spore chimney. Furthermore, the Orbital Bombardement was almost certainly an anti-personell barrage, which is represented in-game as Barrage Bomb, being AP 4. You're also greatly exaggerating the damage it did to the Tyranids and the Daemons; all it did was clear the immediate area so the Terminators could evacuate.
Brother Coa wrote:
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
Now who's not reading the other person's posts? The Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon is a xeno piece of technology that some Ordo Xenos Inquisitors have aquired. It's a crystal array that messes with plasma weapons making it almost impossible to aim with them. A crystal array does not a suit of armour make though. You're right though, they DO have Plasma-resistant armour, it's called Terminator Armour...
Brother Coa wrote:
Now please don't get off topic.
The entire point of a discussion is that both sides get to speak. Trying to dodge a discussion by complaining about going off-topic is counter-productive, especially as we're discussing something related to Draigo; the reason why people dislike him and the Grey Knights in general.
Omegus wrote:The plasma siphon is a piece of wargear with a 12" radius that goes on a T3 HQ model that none of the power lists are fielding anyway. Please don't derail the thread.
bombboy1252 wrote:I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
Ah, that's all nice and everything, but the fact is, people arguing for the stupidity of Draigo are doing so from an informed position, considering we're all citing the written material in our arguments. Conversely, the pro-Draigo camp's argument comes from the realm of make believe and apologetics, such as "Oh Draigo is all about tragedy because he only repeatedly owns the most powerful beings in the setting, rather than just once and for all" or "Draigo is a Greater Daemon Prince Saint of the Grey Emperor Knights."
So the bandwagon accusation can work both ways. In this case, you are the bandwagon-jumper, hopping on the "Ward hate is the norm, so I'm going to be a special unique snowflake by staunchly defending him" wagon. Unfortunately, you made a mistake picking this as your crusade, because while I'm all for people forming their own opinion, when it comes to Draigo, you are simply wrong
And frankly, admitting it would garner you far more respect than digging in your heels and going ad hominem.
So you're saying that if I don't agree with what you have to say, that makes my opinion wrong?
Well yes, if you don't agree with him that makes you wrong. Like I said before, 'opinion' isn't a word you can just throw around to make yourself invulnerable to criticism.
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
I cant figure why Brother Coa would dislike the GK dex. All his thread posts from memory points to him being all for the IoM being super awesome.
On subject:
K, So options for Draigo, either theory is valid, I am at this point seeking to collect the evidence for each side, within the setting. Please refrain from criticizing the grasp some people may or may not have on the written English language, as this brings us no closer to solving the enigma of Draigo. If the 3rd grade english teacher inside you must judge someones prose, make it mine, at least I will hear your critical opinion (followed, most likely, by prompt disregard for said critical opinion, but at least I hear you complain)
1.Super psychic powered warp reflection of powerful anti daemon psykers.
-Continued Existence in the Warp.
-Limited existence within the material realm
-Lack of knowledge concerning Grey Knight battle Brothers (Then I suppose the warp does warp time, but are you gonna tell me Draigo does not have a perfect memory in theory 2?)
2. The ultimo bad ass. Supreme Grand Leader Man of the most bad ass space marines, who are bad ass as a group to begin with.
-Space marines are Bad Ass, Grey Knights even more so
-Super anti Daemon training
-As Radiation put forth, "gives out autographs".
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
Read his fluff again. It's two pages of talking about how awesome he is, and examples of him accomplishing things no one else in the setting has ever accomplished, including the Emperor. Then there's a brief sentence about how the damage he does is inevitably repaired. Then it launches back into how awesome he is. The two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive. Sure, he's a Sisyphean character (1%), but he is also very much an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp (99%). As per usual for Ward, he has an interesting idea that is horrendously executed because he is a very poor writer. That is what I've been arguing.
I have yet to insult anyone in this thread, I responded to an accusation that people who think Draigo is a Mary Sue are just uninformed bandwagon jumpers who are parroting what they read on the internet.
Wait a sec. Isn't just about every SM book have fluff about how awesome they are? GK specialize in killing all things daemon. So perhaps their most accomplished GM would be kicking butt and taking names in the warp. Then made to represent that on the table top.
It's not like he choked out an Avatar right? Oh wait.....wrong book.
$pider wrote:Wait a sec. Isn't just about every SM book have fluff about how awesome they are? GK specialize in killing all things daemon. So perhaps their most accomplished GM would be kicking butt and taking names in the warp. Then made to represent that on the table top.
It's not like he choked out an Avatar right? Oh wait.....wrong book.
It this serious? I'm having a hard time working it out.
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
In some ways he is, but that view only really holds for when he's in the Warp. The fact that he's able to leave the warp and boot head in the materium, and thus have a tangible impact on the universe weakens the tragic elements of being stuck in the warp and destroying things that are automagically recreated the second your back is turned. If Draigo were just background fluff, and was just a Grand Master who spent all his time running around the Warp, or the crunch was changed so that units he kills don't count as kill points or something, then the Sisyphean element would be stronger.
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
That is what I don't liek in GK codex and why are they overpowered.
Now please don't get off topic.
It most certainly was in the old fluff, going all the way back to their first appearances in the RoC era books.
The 2nd point is no more implausible than any of the other myriad of times heroes are swallowed and kill their foe from the inside out, it's a staple of the heroic genre. And, of course, this act is carried out by a "named" special character.
I think you're totally misrepresenting the orbital bombardment as well, which is no real surprise. For starters they're in the lower areas of the Temple when they bombardment starts, which is of course covered in spore chimneys. Furthermore it states that the Gk "weather the storm of barrage bombs" and then the survivors leave before they are overwhelmed.
Which is a far cry from the way you've just described the situation.
I've no idea really where you're getting or going with the plasma resistant armour thing, we'll put that down to linguistic misunderstandings methinks.
Indeed. Kids these days. Codex GK is the Inquisition going back to its hardcore roots. If anything the most uncharacteristic thing they did was help the Eldar retrieve those Malantai soul stones.
daveNYC wrote: [Draigo's] kills don't count as kill points or something, then the Sisyphean element would be stronger.
That would be awesome.
So, more on the "he's tragic, oh, wait no he's not" line of thought: Is that where we are going with this thread?
(The No KP mechanic is a neat thought, though)
Sorry Coa but they killed guardsmen, put the entire population into work camps, repopulated the planet, and then replaced the pollution with imported smog from Vostroya; when they visited Armageddon during the first war. Old fluff but still burns me up.
Just a thought; does anyone know the first war happens the way it did, and if they don't know a war ever happened how do they know to call the orkish Wars the second and third wars for Armageddon?
ANOTHER THING: Correction; i think they executed them for knowledge on chaos rather than seeing some grey armored marines.
$pider wrote:Wait a sec. Isn't just about every SM book have fluff about how awesome they are? GK specialize in killing all things daemon. So perhaps their most accomplished GM would be kicking butt and taking names in the warp. Then made to represent that on the table top.
It's not like he choked out an Avatar right? Oh wait.....wrong book.
It this serious? I'm having a hard time working it out.
I am serious. Codex Space Marines, current edition. Calgar basically strangles an Eldar Avatar.
Varrick wrote: Sorry Coa but they killed guardsmen, put the entire population into work camps, repopulated the planet, and then replaced the pollution with imported smog from Vostroya; when they visited Armageddon during the first war. Old fluff but still burns me up.
Just a thought; does anyone know the first war happens the way it did, and if they don't know a war ever happened how do they know to call the orkish Wars the second and third wars for Armageddon?
They know but I guess they don't know anything about it. They call the 3rd war the 3rd war.
Well, they both fall under the Worf umbrella, but the avatar has suffered more degradation to the point that its toughness is merely an informed ability. I mean, it even appears on the cover of the recent Aurelian, all bent over like it's about to get fisted by Lorgar. Sad, very sad.
Omegus wrote:Well, they both fall under the Worf umbrella, but the avatar has suffered more degradation to the point that its toughness is merely an informed ability. I mean, it even appears on the cover of the recent Aurelian, all bent over like it's about to get fisted by Lorgar. Sad, very sad.
Wow, it does? That is sad.
And you are probably right, actually, from what I hear, in one of the Ultramarine novels M'kar was handing Papa Smurf his ass.
The Avatar is one of the unfortunate creatures in 40k to have its badassery retconned (Getting ripped to pieces by a Hive Tyrants Carnifex's rather than kicking Hive Tyrant ass like before) to make other people (Yriel) look good.
Yeah, I hate that Eldar fluff part. Now that I think about it Avatar is anti-Draigo. I think Draigo should not be able to do so many miraculous things but he does them anyway. Effortlessly. Avatar should be near invincible or at least be a very tough opponent, but the way he's being handled by everybody - he's pathetic. Maybe Khane was god of cooking or trees or clumsiness? It's just Eldar propaganda he is a god of war.
In new Tau codex somebody will just shoot him in the face with a pulse rifle and he will fall down and die. Then at least one craftworld (probably two) will explode because of that. If that happens somebody owes me DMC.
Omegus wrote:That's a special attack permitted by the legendary agility of the Swooping Hawks.
You got this all wrong. This is finally a video accurately portraying the infamous 'Dance of Death' harlequins perform on the battlefield.
The one doing the whirlwind of death must be a Solitaire. No other living creature is even close to attain such beautiful and mesmerising combat movements.
Omegus wrote:Well, they both fall under the Worf umbrella, but the avatar has suffered more degradation to the point that its toughness is merely an informed ability. I mean, it even appears on the cover of the recent Aurelian, all bent over like it's about to get fisted by Lorgar. Sad, very sad.
Wow, it does? That is sad.
And you are probably right, actually, from what I hear, in one of the Ultramarine novels M'kar was handing Papa Smurf his ass.
The Avatar is one of the unfortunate creatures in 40k to have its badassery retconned (Getting ripped to pieces by a Hive Tyrants Carnifex's rather than kicking Hive Tyrant ass like before) to make other people (Yriel) look good.
Spoiler:
Lorgar doesn't fight the Avatar. He walks the surface of one of the Craftworlds that didn't escape the Fall, and finds it near death, so ends its suffering. The thing is literally like it is on the cover, the only survivor, its fire gone repeating the same line over and over. Not great, but it's at least more dignified than being used as 40k's premier whipping post for Special Characters.
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
Read his fluff again. It's two pages of talking about how awesome he is, and examples of him accomplishing things no one else in the setting has ever accomplished, including the Emperor. Then there's a brief sentence about how the damage he does is inevitably repaired. Then it launches back into how awesome he is. The two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive. Sure, he's a Sisyphean character (1%), but he is also very much an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp (99%). As per usual for Ward, he has an interesting idea that is horrendously executed because he is a very poor writer. That is what I've been arguing.
I have yet to insult anyone in this thread, I responded to an accusation that people who think Draigo is a Mary Sue are just uninformed bandwagon jumpers who are parroting what they read on the internet.
You seem to have only read half of my post about band wagon jumpers...
As for Draigo, you say it's "Facts" that it was just written to make him "Syuper kyool" to a bunch of 9 year olds. I say it's "facts" that it was written to show him as being a tragic character, that represents what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing, killing daemons, but regardless of how well and how many they kill, they just come back.
But, those aren't "facts" their opinions, and no I'm not just saying that so I can avoid "being called out on being wrong" or whatever...I'm saying that because it's a FACT that these are just OPINIONS.
bombboy1252 wrote:As for Draigo, you say it's "Facts" that it was just written to make him "Syuper kyool" to a bunch of 9 year olds. I say it's "facts" that it was written to show him as being a tragic character, that represents what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing, killing daemons, but regardless of how well and how many they kill, they just come back.
If you look at Ward's writing history, he writes precisely things that are "syuper kyoll to a bunch of 9-year olds". The tragic character bit, while a far more interesting take than some uber unstoppable badass, simply doesn't pan out in the writing, and frankly, is far too "deep" of a concept for Ward. Just read his interviews.
It is a fact that he writes fanspank, saying that this is a sisyphean tragedy is simply trying to justify the otherwise ludicrous text. Much like how I try to justify the Purifiers not as "50% more incorruptible", but rather guys that are so fanatical that their zeal not only protects them from corruption, but erupts from them in the form of daemon-cleansing flames. It helps me sleep at night, but I know that that's not what is actually written down.
Those interviews are better than anything he's ever put in a codex. Friggin' hilarious.
On another note, just putting this out there, but Draigo has a friggin' stupid-looking model. I almost think that the people who designed the model read Ward's fluff, and in a fit of spiteful nerdrage made Draigo look like he's trying (And failing) to hold in a really big gak.
Those interviews are better than anything he's ever put in a codex. Friggin' hilarious.
On another note, just putting this out there, but Draigo has a friggin' stupid-looking model. I almost think that the people who designed the model read Ward's fluff, and in a fit of spiteful nerdrage made Draigo look like he's trying (And failing) to hold in a really big gak.
I have looked for Ward's interviews.....I couldn't find any, google didn't even yield any results...can some one point me in the direction of those?
White Dwarf. Specifically, the 4th ed Daemons of Chaos release issue, the 5th ed Space Marine release issue, the Blood Angels 5th ed release issue, and of course, the Grey Knights codex release issue.
White Dwarf. Specifically, the 4th ed Daemons of Chaos release issue, the 5th ed Space Marine release issue, the Blood Angels 5th ed release issue, and of course, the Grey Knights codex release issue.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
Yes. He has no food, yet survives? So he needs no energy then? And also water. And also he's running around in the Realm of Chaos, even the regular old Warp flays someone's soul from said persons body upon contact with its tides, and that's even without random encounters with Greater Daemons.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
Yes. He has no food, yet survives? So he needs no energy then? And also water. And also he's running around in the Realm of Chaos, even the regular old Warp flays someone's soul from said persons body upon contact with its tides, and that's even without random encounters with Greater Daemons.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
No one finds you funny or interesting.
Hey hey hey. I like Radiation
You can join him in the corner then.
At least in our corner we don't have to worry about daemons killing us....Draigo protects!
Cool story bro. Do you have cake? No, because Draigo isn't cool enough for cake, and thinks it's all a lie because he's paranoid about everything that could be tricksy and false. Have fun in the corner with strict parent #1.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
No one finds you funny or interesting.
Hey hey hey. I like Radiation
You can join him in the corner then.
At least in our corner we don't have to worry about daemons killing us....Draigo protects!
Cool story bro. Do you have cake? No, because Draigo isn't cool enough for cake, and thinks it's all a lie because he's paranoid about everything that could be tricksy and false. Have fun in the corner with strict parent #1.
Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
No one finds you funny or interesting.
Hey hey hey. I like Radiation
You can join him in the corner then.
At least in our corner we don't have to worry about daemons killing us....Draigo protects!
Cool story bro. Do you have cake? No, because Draigo isn't cool enough for cake, and thinks it's all a lie because he's paranoid about everything that could be tricksy and false. Have fun in the corner with strict parent #1.
Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
No one finds you funny or interesting.
Hey hey hey. I like Radiation
You can join him in the corner then.
At least in our corner we don't have to worry about daemons killing us....Draigo protects!
Cool story bro. Do you have cake? No, because Draigo isn't cool enough for cake, and thinks it's all a lie because he's paranoid about everything that could be tricksy and false. Have fun in the corner with strict parent #1.
Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
Oh, we will, since we have cake, and you do not, and will eat our cake thinking about how you do not have cake, and that will make us cake-laugh because we shall be eating cake.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
Yes. He has no food, yet survives? So he needs no energy then? And also water. And also he's running around in the Realm of Chaos, even the regular old Warp flays someone's soul from said persons body upon contact with its tides, and that's even without random encounters with Greater Daemons.
Void_Dragon: When you post, your voice sounds like the comic book guy from the Simpsons. Don't be nasty. We are talking about fictional spacemen. Its supposed to be fun. Ha. Hah. Heh. See.
Take a chill pill bro.
iproxtaco: You don't have a say in what happens in the Warp. It is Chaos. You have heard a handful of stories about weak minded mortals having their souls devoured. Wives tales and superstition.
Where does it say he doesn't eat and drink? He eats demon flesh and drinks demon blood. And when Chaos is too chicken to get killed by him he eats warp sand because it makes him stronger.
I've already posted that nobody is trying to change your mind. Draigo. Love him. Hate him.
Radiation wrote:Do you guys have any arguments as to why you don't like Draigo besides, "he doesn't take a bath and he kills a lot of stuff?"
Yes. He has no food, yet survives? So he needs no energy then? And also water. And also he's running around in the Realm of Chaos, even the regular old Warp flays someone's soul from said persons body upon contact with its tides, and that's even without random encounters with Greater Daemons.
Void_Dragon: When you post, your voice sounds like the comic book guy from the Simpsons. Don't be nasty. We are talking about fictional spacemen. Its supposed to be fun. Ha. Hah. Heh. See.
Take a chill pill bro.
iproxtaco: You don't have a say in what happens in the Warp. It is Chaos. You have heard a handful of stories about weak minded mortals having their souls devoured. Wives tales and superstition.
Where does it say he doesn't eat and drink? He eats demon flesh and drinks demon blood. And when Chaos is too chicken to get killed by him he eats warp sand because it makes him stronger.
I've already posted that nobody is trying to change your mind. Draigo. Love him. Hate him.
Obey the rules and keep it civil gentlemen.
Warp stuff makes more sense.
Ad hom attacks occur even if you say, dont do that, before doing it (Although maybe sounding like comic book guy wasnt an insult.... Damn you internet, written language).
CpatTom wrote:I imagined that more, Christian Bale. For some reason.
Edit for clarification: American Psycho
Are you suggesting that myself is fabricated, an aberration? That I am a noncontingent human being?
Im suggesting that you are (Pause for dramatic effect, or is it affect, damn you grammar. Cool: http://www.affectvseffect.org/. Pause for effect) Violet.
As this thread has become as much about Mathew Ward's writing ability (or lack there of) as much as about Draigo, I'll post my thoughts here about Mr. Ward. And also look for cake, which I have heard tell can be had around these parts.
Matt Ward is a bad writer. Not horrible to the point you wonder if english was a third language bad, just regular bad. He has some good ideas, but his execution is horrendous. I agree the idea for Draigo was most likely to be a tragic hero that has all his good deeds nullified by the shear futility that is resisting chaos. However, the execution came across much more like "lolz, this guy is awezom cheek it out. He donkey punches a demon primarch, then has his way with him". Yes, Mortarion had just gotten done beating on the old chapter master, and I could maybe accept Draigo eeking out a victory and coming away scarred. But the carving his predecessor's name in his heart thing made the story less epic, not more.
Gk's are incorruptible scions of the emperor who are specialized to fight demons. Got it, no problems there. Purifiers are even moreer incorruptibleer.... what? The list of badly executed ideas could go on, but I think it's been beaten to death already.
Will complaining about Ward's writing change anything? No. GW will have Ward write codexes till he decides he doesn't want to anymore. Why? Cause every codex he writes we complain about how badly he butchered the fluff, question whether he knows any background about 40k at all..... then go out and buy the army. Because Ward's codex's are fun and powerful to play (fun part is subjective). As long as every codex Ward writes becomes FotM, GW will let him write. Compare that to Cruddace's codexes. No one but die hard Sisters fans got excited and went out to buy new Sisters models now that the new codex is out. Is it wicked OP and rollface easy? No, but there are people who love sisters and are trying to make it work (bless them). Necrons? GW's about to sell a whole load of Necrons, and to people who despise the idea of the race (assuming Ward wrote the new dex, which I'm pretty sure he did).
To make it personal: Do I want Mat Ward to write the Eldar codex's fluff when it's time comes? No. Never, ever ever no. Do I want him to write the rules? Heck yea. Give me back my 3rd ed. Starcannons and thank you.
I'm fine with Ward writing rules, I just pray GW eventually tells him not to worry with all those word thingies that go in between the numbers he writes, and lets someone else do the fluff.
iproxtaco wrote:
Yes. He has no food, yet survives? So he needs no energy then? And also water. And also he's running around in the Realm of Chaos, even the regular old Warp flays someone's soul from said persons body upon contact with its tides, and that's even without random encounters with Greater Daemons.
Maybe he is eating Daemon souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
Oh, we will, since we have cake, and you do not, and will eat our cake thinking about how you do not have cake, and that will make us cake-laugh because we shall be eating cake.
bombboy1252 wrote:Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
FINALLY. It took you and Radiation getting their face burned off to get you to concede defeat. And here I was trying to be all polite and logical. Won't make that mistake again.
bombboy1252 wrote:Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
FINALLY. It took you and Radiation getting their face burned off to get you to concede defeat. And here I was trying to be all polite and logical. Won't make that mistake again.
Heresy is not fought with logic. Heresy is fought with fire.
Dash2021 wrote:Will complaining about Ward's writing change anything? No. GW will have Ward write codexes till he decides he doesn't want to anymore. Why? Cause every codex he writes we complain about how badly he butchered the fluff, question whether he knows any background about 40k at all..... then go out and buy the army. Because Ward's codex's are fun and powerful to play (fun part is subjective).
Well, for what it's worth, GW hasn't gotten a penny of my money in years, and I don't intend that to change any time soon. Frankly, 40K hasn't been interesting to me for some time now, there are far better games out there. I still keep coming back to the background though, I suppose for nostalgia's sake more than anything else. So while Ward's crunch is indeed crunchilicious (he writes superhero rules, and that's what's fun to see on the tabletop), all I see is the awful fluff. I am kind of hopeful he will write the Chaos codex. I mean, their fluff has been stupid and juvenile for years anyway, so they can't get that much worse. And if the game-breaking Daemon army book is any indication, they will be so powerful, it will likewise annihilate what thin semblance of balance 40K has. And when asked why he wrote Chaos to be so overpowered and broken, he'll respond with his classic line of, "It'd be a shame if it wasn't."
iproxtaco wrote:I will find that man and cut his hands off before I let him anywhere near my Chaos Legions codex.
Ward said he "wasn't the guy to talk to," about the Chaos codex at Games Day, so rest easy. It seems likely it's Kelly, which means new Black Templars and new Chaos Marines should be a fething epic match-up.
Except he also wrote Space Wolves, which granted has pretty wicked rules, but also stupid stuff like wolf-riding Space Wolves and slowed naming conventions.
So fully expect to see Chaos Lord Chaosington wielding the Chaos Sword of Chaos and riding his Chaotic Chaos Steedchaos.
bombboy1252 wrote:Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
FINALLY. It took you and Radiation getting their face burned off to get you to concede defeat. And here I was trying to be all polite and logical. Won't make that mistake again.
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
Omegus wrote:Except he also wrote Space Wolves, which granted has pretty wicked rules, but also stupid stuff like wolf-riding Space Wolves and slowed naming conventions.
So fully expect to see Chaos Lord Chaosington wielding the Chaos Sword of Chaos and riding his Chaotic Chaos Steedchaos.
That's what I mean, when given the correct context he's the undisputed king of the codices. The Dark Eldar was a major success on all fronts, whilst the Space Wolves are seen as a failure. Frankly, the Space Wolves were far too simplistic and childish to actually add any complexity to.
bombboy1252 wrote:Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
FINALLY. It took you and Radiation getting their face burned off to get you to concede defeat. And here I was trying to be all polite and logical. Won't make that mistake again.
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
Woot Woot Woot! Go Radiation!!!! I give you an exalt good sir
bombboy1252 wrote:Fine, I wont post anymore, just so I can watch you guys B*tch and moan aimlessly about how bad Draigo is...hope you have fun and remember, haters gonna hate
FINALLY. It took you and Radiation getting their face burned off to get you to concede defeat. And here I was trying to be all polite and logical. Won't make that mistake again.
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
That's the bit I found most ludicrous in all of that veritable hedge of stinging metaphors. Draigo accomplishes little whilst in the Warp, it precludes him being literally in the Warp, fighitng Daemons, in the Warp. He solved Tzeentch's labyrinth, burned down Nurgle's garden, has fought and bannished M'kar countless times, and managed to beat a Bloodthirster to death with only his hands and then forge a new sword from its Daemonic axe, and destroyed the fortress of a Lord of Change, and killed it. Oh, and he's done all of this heaps of times, because the Chaos Gods cannot kill him.
Dash2021 brought up an important part in that we're no longer really discussing Draigo but rather Ward's writing ability, that I think is slightly necessary to reply to.
A Codex is not written by a single person. It's helmed by a single person, but there is a team effort going on. The rules and fluff are not all the work of one lone person, chained to a desk working until his guttering candle goes out and his masterpiece is finished.
I will also agree with his assertion that Ward is just a "regular bad writer". Someone earlier made a mention of "People are so deluded that sometimes they'll even say that Ward is like Shakespeare". I can comfortably say that no one is under that assumption, but when people lump Ward in with Goto--it makes me wonder if people have actually read any of Goto's stuff.
Ward is positively Shakespearean compared to the tripe that Goto wrote.
Is Ward a great writer? No. He's nowhere near the likes of Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden or Gav Thorpe. He's more of an Andy Hoare. Andy Hoare can come up with great concepts...but he does not do so well with the details.
Kanluwen wrote:Is Ward a great writer? No. He's nowhere near the likes of Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden or Gav Thorpe. He's more of an Andy Hoare. Andy Hoare can come up with great concepts...but he does not do so well with the details.
I can agree with this.
I doubt any codex writer will be as good as them, especially Aaron Dembski...but that's a bit biased because he has the same first name as me
Radiation wrote:
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
If that's the best troll you can come up with, that's very sad indeed. But really, it's your parents I feel most sorry for, they must be so disappointed. :(
Radiation wrote:
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
If that's the best troll you can come up with, that's very sad indeed. But really, it's your parents I feel most sorry for, they must be so disappointed. :(
Kanluwen wrote:Is Ward a great writer? No. He's nowhere near the likes of Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden or Gav Thorpe. He's more of an Andy Hoare. Andy Hoare can come up with great concepts...but he does not do so well with the details.
iproxtaco wrote:I think that's something we can all agree on....... Hopefully.
Ah, if we could only just agree... Without the telling each other to eat dog treats. (Which aren't bad, by the by, just very dry, at least the few biscuits I had the pleasure partaking in were).
See, but I dont think this argument has been resolved:
One side of this argument wants the fact that tragic elements are what constitute Ward's product being good with concepts as proof he is a good writer.
The other side argues that the tragic elements are purely coincidence, and that this codex is the ooze that has prematurely seeped forth from an excited fan.
Radiation wrote:
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
If that's the best troll you can come up with, that's very sad indeed. But really, it's your parents I feel most sorry for, they must be so disappointed. :(
Radiation wrote:
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
If that's the best troll you can come up with, that's very sad indeed. But really, it's your parents I feel most sorry for, they must be so disappointed. :(
Radiation wrote:
Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
If that's the best troll you can come up with, that's very sad indeed. But really, it's your parents I feel most sorry for, they must be so disappointed. :(
Hey you two keep it cool in there.
I agree with Kan.
He's no Dan Abnett, or Aaron.
For a "Chaplain with Hate to Spare", you are quite pleasant.
What if he brings back DOOMRIDER? Or every chaos marine is totally evil, but chosen are even more evil, but only Lords are evil enough to use the Daemon sword of daemony daemons.
Radiation wrote:Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
For someone whose only posts thus far have consisted of some rather bad trolling, without an actual argument for Draigo in site, for you to insult anyone's arguments ranges from "Makes you look stupid" to "sort of amusing".
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Brother Coa wrote:Maybe he is eating Daemon souls
Let strength be granted so the World might be mended.
Void__Dragon wrote:Let strength be granted so the World might be mended.
So the World might be mended.
That any good?
I find radiation's posts quite eloquent on the whole... His subject sometimes strays for my tastes, but still fun to read.
Draigo, on subject, right. The not eating thing. What is the limit on time for Space Marine's not eating? As well, is there anything that he could eat in Imagination land?
Demon's Souls was great, and I haven't played Dark Souls yet.
I find radiation's posts quite eloquent on the whole... His subject sometimes strays for my tastes, but still fun to read.
I find your fact eloquent on the whole.
Draigo, on subject, right. The not eating thing. What is the limit on time for Space Marine's not eating? As well, is there anything that he could eat in Imagination land?
The not eating thing could be mostly explained by the Warp being a funny kind of dude.
And Draigo is a pretty powerful psyker, that could play a factor.
Radiation wrote:Get real. Your little nerdgang can blowdry my hair with all the heat of your wits combined. You don't like Draigo because he kills lots of stuff, won't take a bath, and doesn't eat cheeseburgers and pizza. You can't stay on topic because your argument is stupid so you flame and troll instead. Your like three little dogs humping each other. Every once in a while you stop to bite at the ankles of a passerby. You have every right to enjoy your internet dogcakes. Yum.
For someone whose only posts thus far have consisted of some rather bad trolling, without an actual argument for Draigo in site, for you to insult anyone's arguments ranges from "Makes you look stupid" to "sort of amusing".
Oh look. The Dork Trifecta completes itself.
Take a look at the post rankings. There are two in there with my name attached. From this thread. One is right there just almost at the very top. Where are yours? Oh yeah, people don't like you. Here is the link for you. Have a look and then come back to reality. Better yet go for a walk. You've been dropping dogcakes on this thread for 15 pages now.
Radiation wrote: Oh look. The Dork Trifecta completes itself.
Take a look at the post rankings. There are two in there with my name attached. From this thread. One is right there just almost at the very top. Where are yours? Oh yeah, people don't like you. Here is the link for you. Have a look and then come back to reality. Better yet go for a walk. You've been dropping dogcakes on this thread for 15 pages now.
That's a nice big stinky dogcake for you boys. Open wide! Troll and flame away.
This proves your post to be popular. It has no bearing on the quality of the post itself, just one that can be assumed, based on the assumption that people like things that are good. I would point to this: 1 Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 2 Warner Bros. $1,327,662,478 $380,562,478 $113,699,829 $51,328,689 2 Transformers: Dark of the Moon Paramount Pictures $1,122,022,953 $352,390,543 $45,470,012 $38,820,321 3 Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides Walt Disney Pictures $1,039,571,802 $241,071,802 $54,187,325 $29,006,640 4 Kung Fu Panda 2 DreamWorks Animation $663,024,542 $165,249,063 $25,868,121 $20,219,645 5 Fast Five Universal Pictures $624,337,675 $209,837,675 $30,243,825 $26,794,607 6 The Hangover Part II Warner Bros. $581,464,305 $254,464,305 $53,496,869 $35,371,018 7 Cars 2 Walt Disney Pictures / Pixar $551,403,042 $191,003,042 $24,894,721 $20,811,602 8 The Smurfs Columbia Pictures $550,655,209 $140,555,209 $26,348,583 $17,524,285 9 Rio 20th Century Fox $483,866,518 $143,619,809 $21,578,418 $17,230,382 10 Thor Paramount Pictures $448,512,824 $181,030,624 $22,521,717 $20,135,378
These are the best movies of 2011?
In case you are wondering, that is evidence to an argument. Not pretty words, but words with substance, none the less.
Radiation wrote:Oh look. The Dork Trifecta completes itself.
Take a look at the post rankings. There are two in there with my name attached. From this thread. One is right there just almost at the very top. Where are yours? Oh yeah, people don't like you. Here is the link for you. Have a look and then come back to reality. Better yet go for a walk. You've been dropping dogcakes on this thread for 15 pages now.
That's a nice big stinky dogcake for you boys. Open wide! Troll and flame away.
Well isn't that just adorable, it thinks that citing the post rankings somehow is an adequate response to me pointing out that, though he criticizes the arguments of the people who dislike Draigo, he himself hasn't provided any actual, honest argument beyond what came off as, frankly, trolling. The fact that it believes I could give a single "dogcake" as it would say about what some people on a forum think of him (Or me, for that matter) is somewhat amusing.
If you were not trolling (And subtly insulting everyone who dislikes Draig), then by all means, I apologise for assuming you were, and suggest you learn to mix humor and "making an argument" much better, because it just came off as kind of bad trolling.
Look, it is as simple as this. I am not going to read 16 pages on why Draigo's fluff is stupidly OTT.
Draigo is stuck in the Warp, which can easily happer. If Terminators can do it(SM Terminators) to teleport, then obiously the most powerful GK can do it. As for pwning Mortarion, he wasn't the fastest or best Primarch. Draigo had his sword(at the time, a NFW, so 2++ in CC). He had his Psykout Grenades. he had his Daemon owning silver infused blade. Daemon Prince had just had a fight with the last guy. He wasn't at full Str.
Abnd it is as simple as this right here. If you don't like his fluff(or his rules for the matter), you don't have to, as fluff makes no difference. it is somnething there to enjoy.
As for rules and in game stuff, I know rules=/= fluff. But that is what's there, so take it or leave it.>
I concur, brother of the Great Trimutive, he is indeed a sad little troll. Seriously, I don't think 'dork' is an insult you can feasibly use on a Warhammer internet forum, especially not in the same post that contains a poor attempt at instigating a popularity contest.
Deadshot wrote:Look, it is as simple as this. I am not going to read 16 pages on why Draigo's fluff is stupidly OTT.
Draigo is stuck in the Warp, which can easily happer. If Terminators can do it(SM Terminators) to teleport, then obiously the most powerful GK can do it. As for pwning Mortarion, he wasn't the fastest or best Primarch. Draigo had his sword(at the time, a NFW, so 2++ in CC). He had his Psykout Grenades. he had his Daemon owning silver infused blade. Daemon Prince had just had a fight with the last guy. He wasn't at full Str.
As for beating a Bloodthirstwer.
Lesser Daemon<Daemon Herald><Daemon Prince><Greater Daemon><Primarch><Daemon Lord><Chaos God.
Abnd it is as simple as this right here. If you don't like his fluff(or his rules for the matter), you don't have to, as fluff makes no difference. it is somnething there to enjoy.
As for rules and in game stuff, I know rules=/= fluff. But that is what's there, so take it or leave it.>
You wont exalt any of my posts if you dont read through them!
Haha, but what I have put forth, is that Draigo is no longer material, but a "daemon" in a sense. He is a reflection of the Grey Knights Psychic power and purity and thus his existence continued existence in the warp is not an issue. Thoughts?
Radiation wrote:Oh look. The Dork Trifecta completes itself.
Take a look at the post rankings. There are two in there with my name attached. From this thread. One is right there just almost at the very top. Where are yours? Oh yeah, people don't like you. Here is the link for you. Have a look and then come back to reality. Better yet go for a walk. You've been dropping dogcakes on this thread for 15 pages now.
That's a nice big stinky dogcake for you boys. Open wide! Troll and flame away.
Well isn't that just adorable, it thinks that citing the post rankings somehow is an adequate response to me pointing out that, though he criticizes the arguments of the people who dislike Draigo, he himself hasn't provided any actual, honest argument beyond what came off as, frankly, trolling. The fact that it believes I could give a single "dogcake" as it would say about what some people on a forum think of him (Or me, for that matter) is somewhat amusing.
If you were not trolling (And subtly insulting everyone who dislikes Draig), then by all means, I apologise for assuming you were, and suggest you learn to mix humor and "making an argument" much better, because it just came off as kind of bad trolling.
Radiation wrote:Oh look. The Dork Trifecta completes itself.
Take a look at the post rankings. There are two in there with my name attached. From this thread. One is right there just almost at the very top. Where are yours? Oh yeah, people don't like you. Here is the link for you. Have a look and then come back to reality. Better yet go for a walk. You've been dropping dogcakes on this thread for 15 pages now.
That's a nice big stinky dogcake for you boys. Open wide! Troll and flame away.
Well isn't that just adorable, it thinks that citing the post rankings somehow is an adequate response to me pointing out that, though he criticizes the arguments of the people who dislike Draigo, he himself hasn't provided any actual, honest argument beyond what came off as, frankly, trolling. The fact that it believes I could give a single "dogcake" as it would say about what some people on a forum think of him (Or me, for that matter) is somewhat amusing.
If you were not trolling (And subtly insulting everyone who dislikes Draig), then by all means, I apologise for assuming you were, and suggest you learn to mix humor and "making an argument" much better, because it just came off as kind of bad trolling.
Apology accepted.
Now by all means carry on.
Draigo. Love him. Hate him. For the Empraah!
This is not a response to anything I posted. You ask for arguments, then ignore their existence.
You're a politician, and I mean that in the very worst way possible. Pretty words used to blame others for failures, all the while avoiding any of the issues staring in your face. Run for president.
CpatTom wrote:You wont exalt any of my posts if you dont read through them!
Haha, but what I have put forth, is that Draigo is no longer material, but a "daemon" in a sense. He is a reflection of the Grey Knights Psychic power and purity and thus his existence continued existence in the warp is not an issue. Thoughts?
I'll admit the idea could be at least conceivable, that time spent in the Warp has eroded his physical form and rendered him mostly or completely Immaterial. There's no official fluff backing it, but it's a nice idea that you could easily use as the fluff of your own army, if you have a Grey Knight army.
Deadshot wrote:Look, it is as simple as this. I am not going to read 16 pages on why Draigo's fluff is stupidly OTT.
Draigo is stuck in the Warp, which can easily happer. If Terminators can do it(SM Terminators) to teleport, then obiously the most powerful GK can do it. As for pwning Mortarion, he wasn't the fastest or best Primarch. Draigo had his sword(at the time, a NFW, so 2++ in CC). He had his Psykout Grenades. he had his Daemon owning silver infused blade. Daemon Prince had just had a fight with the last guy. He wasn't at full Str.
As for beating a Bloodthirstwer.
Lesser Daemon<Daemon Herald><Daemon Prince><Greater Daemon><Primarch><Daemon Lord><Chaos God.
Abnd it is as simple as this right here. If you don't like his fluff(or his rules for the matter), you don't have to, as fluff makes no difference. it is somnething there to enjoy.
As for rules and in game stuff, I know rules=/= fluff. But that is what's there, so take it or leave it.>
You wont exalt any of my posts if you dont read through them!
Haha, but what I have put forth, is that Draigo is no longer material, but a "daemon" in a sense. He is a reflection of the Grey Knights Psychic power and purity and thus his existence continued existence in the warp is not an issue. Thoughts?
It sounds good, but then you have my first point. Normally you will get ripped a new one if you are in the Warp without a Gellar field, but Strike Squads, Interceptrors, Dreadknights, Termies of all kinds except SW, they all seem to manage it, so why not he?
As for not being able to be defeated, he beat a Daemon of Khorne unarmed, so sending anything less than a Daemon Lord is going to be pointless. And the Lords can't be worried about 1 man running around burning Nurgle's Garden, when there is an Emperor' presence to kill, a galaxy to destroy, re-emerging Necrons, older than the Chaos Gods themselves, and 20% off at Starbucks!
CpatTom wrote:This is not a response to anything I posted. You ask for arguments, then ignore their existence.
You're a politician, and I mean that in the very worst way possible. Pretty words used to blame others for failures, all the while avoiding any of the issues staring in your face. Run for president.
Deadshot wrote:It sounds good, but then you have my first point. Normally you will get ripped a new one if you are in the Warp without a Gellar field, but Strike Squads, Interceptrors, Dreadknights, Termies of all kinds except SW, they all seem to manage it, so why not he?
Its not the issue that he is not able to survive the warp. This is completely feasible given his immense power, for the examples given; however, what does he eat? When does he sleep? At no moment would he be able to let down his guard, is he this powerful? He certainly could be.
As for not being able to be defeated, he beat a Daemon of Khorne unarmed, so sending anything less than a Daemon Lord is going to be pointless. And the Lords can't be worried about 1 man running around burning Nurgle's Garden, when there is an Emperor' presence to kill, a galaxy to destroy, re-emerging Necrons, older than the Chaos Gods themselves, and 20% off at Starbucks!
True, true. However it is not like all the Gods of Chaos to turn tail and run. (certainly not all of them stand in till the end either, haha, but somebody would look to make a name for himself (WORF HIM!)
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Void__Dragon wrote:
CpatTom wrote:This is not a response to anything I posted. You ask for arguments, then ignore their existence.
You're a politician, and I mean that in the very worst way possible. Pretty words used to blame others for failures, all the while avoiding any of the issues staring in your face. Run for president.
Not to jump in and defend him or anything, but...
His response was to me. Lol.
Oh, well, RADIATION! Respond to my arguments, and I will APOLOGIZE!
Deadshot wrote:It sounds good, but then you have my first point. Normally you will get ripped a new one if you are in the Warp without a Gellar field, but Strike Squads, Interceptrors, Dreadknights, Termies of all kinds except SW, they all seem to manage it, so why not he?
Its not the issue that he is not able to survive the warp. This is completely feasible given his immense power, for the examples given; however, what does he eat? When does he sleep? At no moment would he be able to let down his guard, is he this powerful? He certainly could be.
As for not being able to be defeated, he beat a Daemon of Khorne unarmed, so sending anything less than a Daemon Lord is going to be pointless. And the Lords can't be worried about 1 man running around burning Nurgle's Garden, when there is an Emperor' presence to kill, a galaxy to destroy, re-emerging Necrons, older than the Chaos Gods themselves, and 20% off at Starbucks!
True, true. However it is not like all the Gods of Chaos to turn tail and run. (certainly not all of them stand in till the end either, haha, but somebody would look to make a name for himself (WORF HIM!)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote:
CpatTom wrote:This is not a response to anything I posted. You ask for arguments, then ignore their existence.
You're a politician, and I mean that in the very worst way possible. Pretty words used to blame others for failures, all the while avoiding any of the issues staring in your face. Run for president.
Not to jump in and defend him or anything, but...
His response was to me. Lol.
Oh, well, RADIATION! Respond to my arguments, and I will APOLOGIZE!
Hold on. I have to go out for a bit. If the tattletale doesn't get me a ban, I will reply with eloquence when I get back. I liked where you were going with some of you thoughts. President. You guys are nuts.
All of those things are only in the Warp for a very short length of time, and have certain conditions in which they are protected. Teleportation puts you in the Warp for a very short length of time, even then you're protected by an Astropath maintaining the jump generator. Interceptors and the like are also in the Warp for a very small length if time, and their entry in the Codex notes this form of travel is extremely dangerous, even for the Grey Knights that have more protection from this kind of thing. Draigo, is literally in the Warp, for an extended length of time, years, who knows, still a lot longer than the brief stints of the other examples. Any sort of exposure like this kills in moments. Take the Red Corsairs in Blood Reaver, for example. They were on the outside of the hull of a ship when it jumped into the Warp. They all died, their flesh burned from their bones, their bones flayed from their souls, and their souls taken by the Warp currents. It caused extreme pain. Draigo survives this, and routinely beats up the Warp's most dangerous inhabitants and destroys their homes.
Maybe Tzeentch is actually keeping him alive? Maybe it is all part of his plan to become the Master of Chaos and destroy Nurgle. Khorne and Slaanesh too, but mostly Nurgle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for him not sleeping, he IS a space Marine, so does have the implant that allows him to rest half his brain. He probably cleanses Daemons' flesh with Sanctified Flame when he absolutly must, or goes hungry.
I am firmly in the camp of "the gods are keeping him alive for the lulz". Yes, I am trying to make excuses for Matt Ward. No, I don't like him that much.
Deadshot wrote:Maybe Tzeentch is actually keeping him alive? Maybe it is all part of his plan to become the Master of Chaos and destroy Nurgle. Khorne and Slaanesh too, but mostly Nurgle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for him not sleeping, he IS a space Marine, so does have the implant that allows him to rest half his brain. He probably cleanses Daemons' flesh with Sanctified Flame when he absolutly must, or goes hungry.
The Catalespean Node doesn't allow an Astartes to go without sleep indefinably. Long-term use causes hallucinations and eventual psychosis, and they simply cannot go without sleep for long periods of time. The longest was something like 300 hours. Draigo needs sleep and food, neither of which are explained in passage, although the Warp has strange ways of bending the laws of the material world.
Maybe he gets some food when he is realeased from the Warp. And I don't think many Nurglings are going to bother him in the ashes of Nurgle's Garden, or the ruins of the Tzeentchian city.
BrainDeleted wrote:But both of those quickly rebuilt/regrew as stated a million times in this thread.
Who cares? He still did those things, and has done them many times. He shouldn't have even been able to survive the transition into the Warp, let alone regularly beat up Greater Daemons in their own realm.
And I would be pointing out that what the GK and Draigo do is not pointless. Each Daemon the chapter kills is one less Daemon threatening the Imperium. Each Daemon that he kills is a Daemon that is not going to be threatening IoM for even longer, becuase it doesn't get the chance to even enter the realm of realspace.
BrainDeleted wrote:But both of those quickly rebuilt/regrew as stated a million times in this thread.
Who cares? He still did those things, and has done them many times. He shouldn't have even been able to survive the transition into the Warp, let alone regularly beat up Greater Daemons in their own realm.
That was a response to the above post which seemed to suggest he could sleep in the ashes of Nurgle's garden or in the rubble of Tzeentch's city. Edited to make that more clear.
Deadshot wrote:And I would be pointing out that what the GK and Draigo do is not pointless. Each Daemon the chapter kills is one less Daemon threatening the Imperium. Each Daemon that he kills is a Daemon that is not going to be threatening IoM for even longer, becuase it doesn't get the chance to even enter the realm of realspace.
And yet, in the end, they all come back to troll the Imperium with their infernal plans.
BrainDeleted wrote:But both of those quickly rebuilt/regrew as stated a million times in this thread.
"...and for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of demonic vegetation."
"...in reply the Grey Knight smote the city walls and left the bird-Daemon entombed amongst the ruins."
"The Deamons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies..."
Despite the misinformation being promoted by random posters in this thread, each instance in the text alludes to a period of time taking place.
"...for a long time" "...left...entombed...ruins" "inevitably returned."
When read for context, these are words that offer clues that time spans are taking place.
Radiation wrote:Draigo walks the righteous path through the Warp. Wasn't this what the Emperor was preparing humanity for? The Imperium of Man is supposed to be at the crossroads to something like this. The Corpse God is not going to reincarnate and coddle the weak. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. Men are supposed to master the Warp and no longer need rely on him. They will be strong enough to protect themselves against the predations of the false gods. Aren't these the original teachings? Man is on the threshold of a psychic transformation. Sounds like Draigo made the jump.
Draigo cares nothing about your weak and pathetic attempts at disbelief. Your thoughts only serve to expand his mythos, even the more heretical systems of faith represented here.
Cpatom: I have already stated what I think Draigo is. I like your idea that he died and has been replaced by a form of Imperial Daemon. But I think that it is heresy.
In regards to eating. "With cleansing fire he drove daemonic taint from the beast's great axe, and used the molten remains to reforge his own sword."
So he probably does eat pizza and cheeseburgers. Whatever he is eating, its probably barbqued well done and tastes nothing like daemonic taint.
Daemon's are not made of flesh & blood. The reality is probably more along the lines of the cop out answer: 'He's in the warp so he doesn't need to eat.'
BrainDeleted wrote:Daemon's are not made of flesh & blood. The reality is probably more along the lines of the cop out answer: 'He's in the warp so he doesn't need to eat.'
What reality is it that you speak of when you speak of your dreams of living in a dream that was dreamed by another dreamer? There is nothing in the visions that says anything about food. It is irrelevant to the tale. Draigo survives and thrives in the Warp. He warps the Warp according to his will and might. Why is it necessary to know such trivialities?
Here is a nice story:
It has been said before that Marines carry tiny ration pills. I once read a thread that debated the scientific merits of such a magic bean. After pages of flaming debate, a result of science as we know it today can not make such a pill. Yet today we can easily walk to the pharmacy and obtain a small bottle that will contain 1000 pills of a different sort.
Imagine then a compartment in the bulk of Draigo's TDA. Or the variety of pouches and containers that a regular Marine is allowed to carry. Say then, when Draigo first entered the Warp he only had one standard issue of ration pills. How ever many this was, it was enough for him to survive until he was first ejected out of the Warp to renew his battle at the side of his brothers. And then tragically he was thrown back into the Warp, and again he had enough ration pills, whether more than enough or just enough, until he was ejected for a second time. Now this time during the battle he related his stories and concerns to his fellow battle brothers. During the brutal fighting that is the life of the Grey Knights, those closest to their Grand Master fought and listened intently to the stories he told them. This is what we know of his travels in the Warp. These are the legends.
He also told them they shall all carry extra rations for all time, and when he shows up, quickly now, everyone hand him your extra bottle before the Warp steals him away.
iproxtaco wrote:
The Catalespean Node doesn't allow an Astartes to go without sleep indefinably. Long-term use causes hallucinations and eventual psychosis, and they simply cannot go without sleep for long periods of time. The longest was something like 300 hours. Draigo needs sleep and food, neither of which are explained in passage, although the Warp has strange ways of bending the laws of the material world.
That explains everything! Draigo didn't really burn down Nurgle's Forest OR Destroyed Tzeentch's City. He's just completely lost his mind.
Anyways, we really do not have enough Info about what he has done other than "Draigo did X, then Y, followed by Z". we need someone to write some novels around Draigo, based on his journey through the warp (Brownie points for the BL writer that does this using references from the Divine Comedy) to get a better Idea of what happened.
iproxtaco wrote:
The Catalespean Node doesn't allow an Astartes to go without sleep indefinably. Long-term use causes hallucinations and eventual psychosis, and they simply cannot go without sleep for long periods of time. The longest was something like 300 hours. Draigo needs sleep and food, neither of which are explained in passage, although the Warp has strange ways of bending the laws of the material world.
That explains everything! Draigo didn't really burn down Nurgle's Forest OR Destroyed Tzeentch's City. He's just completely lost his mind.
Anyways, we really do not have enough Info about what he has done other than "Draigo did X, then Y, followed by Z". we need someone to write some novels around Draigo, based on his journey through the warp (Brownie points for the BL writer that does this using references from the Divine Comedy) to get a better Idea of what happened.
it makes so much sense. He didn't do ANY of that he jsut ran around the warp owning gak, after 300 hours(give or take) of the sleep tool he lost hi s fething mind and went so balls out bonkers that even the khoranite berserkers would not touch him. Tzeentchs city didn't get raze it knocked itself down. Kinda like burning down your house to get rid of the emperor botherers outside. Coincidentally something Nurgle did. And if the two events did not happen draigo went running around the warp cackling like a mad man as he punched things and threw molotov space cocktails at the daemons following him with popcorn. Any time he leaves the warp he brags to his friends about all hes doing in the warp. He apparently becomes sane enough to speak beyond "FOR THE EMPRAH" when in real space.
We've already learned that the warp is a realm of psychic energy that can be manipulated by psykers, maybe the first psychic ability draigo learned was 'sticks to snakes', and by sticks I mean immateria and snakes I mean cheeseburgers, but it didn't make it into the book because who the hell cares what draigo snacks on between ass kickings?
There's no mention in the Codex Space Marine forbidding Ultra Marines from having pet bunnies, so should we assume they all just have them? Seriously, I'll bet Calgar has the cutest belgian hare in the chapter.
Radiation wrote:What reality is it that you speak of when you speak of your dreams of living in a dream that was dreamed by another dreamer? There is nothing in the visions that says anything about food. It is irrelevant to the tale. Draigo survives and thrives in the Warp. He warps the Warp according to his will and might. Why is it necessary to know such trivialities?
Here is a nice story:
It has been said before that Marines carry tiny ration pills. I once read a thread that debated the scientific merits of such a magic bean. After pages of flaming debate, a result of science as we know it today can not make such a pill. Yet today we can easily walk to the pharmacy and obtain a small bottle that will contain 1000 pills of a different sort.
Imagine then a compartment in the bulk of Draigo's TDA. Or the variety of pouches and containers that a regular Marine is allowed to carry. Say then, when Draigo first entered the Warp he only had one standard issue of ration pills. How ever many this was, it was enough for him to survive until he was first ejected out of the Warp to renew his battle at the side of his brothers. And then tragically he was thrown back into the Warp, and again he had enough ration pills, whether more than enough or just enough, until he was ejected for a second time. Now this time during the battle he related his stories and concerns to his fellow battle brothers. During the brutal fighting that is the life of the Grey Knights, those closest to their Grand Master fought and listened intently to the stories he told them. This is what we know of his travels in the Warp. These are the legends.
He also told them they shall all carry extra rations for all time, and when he shows up, quickly now, everyone hand him your extra bottle before the Warp steals him away.
Or he eats Barbque Cheeseburgers.
I wouldn't get too hung up on such issues. The warp is a nonsensical place where all the typical rules of life don't really matter. It's not like the Legions needed to hire a boatload of farmers, chefs and plummers when they retreated into the warp either.
junk wrote:We've already learned that the warp is a realm of psychic energy that can be manipulated by psykers, maybe the first psychic ability draigo learned was 'sticks to snakes', and by sticks I mean immateria and snakes I mean cheeseburgers, but it didn't make it into the book because who the hell cares what draigo snacks on between ass kickings?
Nah, that can't be true, because then there'd be a feasible way for Draigo to walk the warp without having his brain go pop. Anticipate the same kind of answers I got when I proposed this a few pages back...
Deadshot wrote:And I would be pointing out that what the GK and Draigo do is not pointless. Each Daemon the chapter kills is one less Daemon threatening the Imperium. Each Daemon that he kills is a Daemon that is not going to be threatening IoM for even longer, becuase it doesn't get the chance to even enter the realm of realspace.
Daemons can't be killed, As is noted in the GK codex IIRC, you can bansih them for a set period of time - and thats about it - I guess the Chaos Powers can unmake one and reabsorb its essence into themselves buts thats about it. The GK in the new Codex have realised this unpalatable truth and actively try to imprison Daemons in the materail realm so they can''t just come back a few hundred years later, but this is the smallest drop in the largest ocean in terms of the numbers nad power of the Daemons in the Warp. Part of the theme behind the GK codex is, as I read it, that like the Imperium they are fighting a loosing battle - its just a matter of time.........
If they really want to stop the incursions they would need get the Necron technology that seals off realspace from the Warp - if thats still current fluff........not sure with the new codex......
I still like the idea that Draigo is actually a Daemon that thinks he is a Grey Knight
iproxtaco wrote: The Catalespean Node doesn't allow an Astartes to go without sleep indefinably. Long-term use causes hallucinations and eventual psychosis, and they simply cannot go without sleep for long periods of time. The longest was something like 300 hours. Draigo needs sleep and food, neither of which are explained in passage, although the Warp has strange ways of bending the laws of the material world.
That explains everything! Draigo didn't really burn down Nurgle's Forest OR Destroyed Tzeentch's City. He's just completely lost his mind.
Anyways, we really do not have enough Info about what he has done other than "Draigo did X, then Y, followed by Z". we need someone to write some novels around Draigo, based on his journey through the warp (Brownie points for the BL writer that does this using references from the Divine Comedy) to get a better Idea of what happened.
it makes so much sense. He didn't do ANY of that he jsut ran around the warp owning gak, after 300 hours(give or take) of the sleep tool he lost hi s fething mind and went so balls out bonkers that even the khoranite berserkers would not touch him. Tzeentchs city didn't get raze it knocked itself down. Kinda like burning down your house to get rid of the emperor botherers outside. Coincidentally something Nurgle did. And if the two events did not happen draigo went running around the warp cackling like a mad man as he punched things and threw molotov space cocktails at the daemons following him with popcorn. Any time he leaves the warp he brags to his friends about all hes doing in the warp. He apparently becomes sane enough to speak beyond "FOR THE EMPRAH" when in real space.
That is just... Perfect!!! The warp itself would be another factor, as it gradually finds a chink in his sanity. If the character as written is a load of tripe, it's best for all of us to have our personal interpretations.
His weakness is that he is alone and isolated. His being alive actually cripples the Chapter. The Chapter/Supreme Grand Master of a chapter niormally helps to make the importent discisions. With him in the Warp, they must rely on a coalition of Grand Masters. And they can't elect a new Master in his place.
Deadshot wrote:His weakness is that he is alone and isolated. His being alive actually cripples the Chapter. The Chapter/Supreme Grand Master of a chapter niormally helps to make the importent discisions. With him in the Warp, they must rely on a coalition of Grand Masters. And they can't elect a new Master in his place.
That is an inconvenience and weakness caused by the situation the character is in, not an inherent weakness of the character himself.
Deadshot wrote:His weakness is that he is alone and isolated. His being alive actually cripples the Chapter. The Chapter/Supreme Grand Master of a chapter niormally helps to make the importent discisions. With him in the Warp, they must rely on a coalition of Grand Masters. And they can't elect a new Master in his place.
Being alone and isolated, yet still being an unstoppable killing machine isn't exactly a weakness, and not being around to guide the chapter actually only hurts the chapter, not the character himself.
Was there anything in the fluff to explain why the Grey Knights didn't elect a new Chapter Master (or whatever their specific title is) after Draigo got pulled into the warp the first time? They must have assumed that he was dead, so why didn't they pick a new leader?
Maybe they had faith that he would prevail, and when he was released they knew for certaion he was alive. then he got sucked back in. my guess is that untill they see his body thebn he will be assumed alive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isolation is crippling. it can make a man/woman go nuts.
Deadshot wrote:Isolation is crippling. it can make a man/woman go nuts.
And if it had been put in the codex that the millennia (or so it seems to Draigo because of the Warp's effects on Space-Time) of isolation in the warp had left him with nothing but his loyalty to an Emperor he can no longer remember and his ingrained hatred of chaos for reasons he doesn't know then it wouldn't be so bad.
As it is he seems to be withstanding the isolation with no ill effects.
Seems beiong the key word. And both of those statements could be true, for all GK. They have their memeories wiped, so how far do they take it? Loyalty and Hatred for Chaos is like a second naturwe to them, so what if it actually IS their second, mind-controlling nature?
Apologies Radiation. I hope you never have to hold public office.
So, again.
Magic Cheeseburger
-Cleansing Flame Variety
-Imaginary made up burgers
Draigomon
-Tzneetch, for the Lolz
-Emprah, for the Lolz
-GK's, for the Emprah
Then you miss out, and when someone plonks down Draigo in front of you for a game, yopu going to say, "He isn't real. I refuse to recognise him as legal."?
Draigo was the first GK( and Finecast) model I picked up, specifically for GK( Stormravens, Rhino, Razorbacks, LR and Libby don't count. I got them for my Vanilla Marines already).
You don't use him and you miss out on one powerful little silver bugger.
There was only one Drago; Ivan. He was punched into oblivion by Rocky Balboa.
Any other fluff which I disagree with is ignored. It's not like I'm ever going to use the model or its rules, anyway - even as a GK player.
Weird.
CpatTom wrote:Apologies Radiation. I hope you never have to hold public office.
So, again.
Magic Cheeseburger
-Cleansing Flame Variety
-Imaginary made up burgers
Draigomon
-Tzneetch, for the Lolz
-Emprah, for the Lolz
-GK's, for the Emprah
Apology accepted.
As an American I am a big fan of the magic cheeseburgers. What do you mean by the Draigomon Lolz? Even though I think the idea of Draigo being anything but a rational demihuman killing machine of the highest order is heresy, I like your counter idea of him being a demonic shade. Continue on with that train of thought for another post if you would elaborate on it. I think the last page or so has opened up the field of debate beyond the Mat(t) Ward haters having a distasteful monopoly on the thread. We have a lot of funny/entertaining/adventerous ideas in play now, and I think Draigomon is one of them, although I won't be specifically a proponent of such theological concepts. I do enjoy the friendly and heretical dialogue. Anything that ADDS to the mythos besides the two brief pages of the codex is worth debating in good spirit.
And without going too off topic I do support our current Prez and am looking forward to seeing him re-elected.
If Draigo were still a mortal, GK power aside, his brain should have burned out long ago from his constant battles in the Warp. Seriously, how many swordsmen could fight enemies all around them, left right front and back? Factor in psychic powers and it might be possible for a while, but he'll still burn out after a while. Then factor in top and bottom, since there's not reason why the Warp would force them to obey any semblance of gravity, and any advantage would certainly be nullified. Then factor in that he could conceivably be attacked from the past and future as well, since it is the Warp. No matter how skilled, if he was mortal, Draigo would be long dead.
Maybe the combined belief that the highly Psychic GK chapter, close to 1000 battle brothers, somne of the greatest psykers in the galaxy, have in him, he doesn't die
?
You can't really argue the specific mechanics/realism of fluff like Draigo's. How does he eat is a pointless question, though funny. This legend is akin to those ancient legends of greece, where a hero goes into the underworld, kill a bunch of hades minions and then perform some heroic act in order to save the life of someone or to save the fate of a city or some such nonsense. I'm sure there were many people back then like people in this thread.
"Well, if Achilles was dipped in the river styx then he would've just died. Its the river of the dead, right?" Answer: "Yeah, but he didn't."
=
"Well, if Draigo was thrown into the warp then he would get tired, run out of food, go insane, or be flayed alive. I mean, that's the warp, right?" Answer: "Yeah, but he didn't."
All we have to go on is what is written by the makers of the this lovely game and universe. And if they say Draigo reams the butts of the demons in the warp whilst walking for eternity in his ever changing prison without any hamburgers, then by god that's apparently what he did.
Or you can do as I have, and just take it as some crazy fable passed around by the Grey Knights and the IoM in their darkest hours.
I quite like the crazy fable angle. Though Achilles = Draigo doesn't really work. Achilles had a weak spot. And the legend gave a specific reason why he didn't die, unlike Draigo, who's entire story is based around the explanation 'Just because.'
Deadshot wrote:Maybe the combined belief that the highly Psychic GK chapter, close to 1000 battle brothers, somne of the greatest psykers in the galaxy, have in him, he doesn't die?
1000 psykers is nothing in the big scheme of things, no matter how powerful they may be. It took the death of a race to wake Slaanesh. Since Draigo seems to have comparable power, what with wandering the warp and burning stuff, he'd need a lot more support to survive.
OK, here's another annoying aspect to the whole Draigo thing, per fluff he shows up to boot head on daemons because through the power of handwavium he is pulled through the same warp breach that the daemons come through. I'm willing to buy some sort of brotherly mojo works to pull Draigo into realspace when other GK are nearby, that can be fluffy, especially so if Draigo were actually a warp echo of the original Draigo, brought into being by Draigo's willpower and the GK's faith. What I don't get is how exactly does Draigo get to be used against, say Tau, or Tyranids, or any other army that doesn't require ripping a hole in the universe. You could try to excuse his use against Eldar types by saying he comes through the webway somehow, but even that is a huge stretch.
Deadshot wrote:Maybe the combined belief that the highly Psychic GK chapter, close to 1000 battle brothers, somne of the greatest psykers in the galaxy, have in him, he doesn't die?
1000 psykers is nothing in the big scheme of things, no matter how powerful they may be. It took the death of a race to wake Slaanesh. Since Draigo seems to have comparable power, what with wandering the warp and burning stuff, he'd need a lot more support to survive.
1000 of the most powerful psykers. these aren't the commonly hated magician of the Hab Streets, these are extremely powerful./
My idea is akin to how orks believe that their gun shouldn't jam, so it doesn't even though by all human reasoning the gun shouldn't even be able to load a round.
Deadshot wrote:Maybe the combined belief that the highly Psychic GK chapter, close to 1000 battle brothers, somne of the greatest psykers in the galaxy, have in him, he doesn't die?
1000 psykers is nothing in the big scheme of things, no matter how powerful they may be. It took the death of a race to wake Slaanesh. Since Draigo seems to have comparable power, what with wandering the warp and burning stuff, he'd need a lot more support to survive.
1000 of the most powerful psykers. these aren't the commonly hated magician of the Hab Streets, these are extremely powerful./
My idea is akin to how orks believe that their gun shouldn't jam, so it doesn't even though by all human reasoning the gun shouldn't even be able to load a round.
Except that wouldn't explain why he came back the first time, since there'd be no reason why any, let alone all of them would think he'd come back. And the Eldar are far more psychically attuned than humans. Unless these thousand Grey Knights are about as strong as the Emperor, there's no way they could match the entire Eldar race in their power output.
But we aren't talking about creating a god. Were talking about 1 SM not needing food or sleep. And there was THOUSANDS, perhaps even milliomns of Eldar. A whole race.
Deadshot wrote:Maybe the combined belief that the highly Psychic GK chapter, close to 1000 battle brothers, somne of the greatest psykers in the galaxy, have in him, he doesn't die?
1000 psykers is nothing in the big scheme of things, no matter how powerful they may be. It took the death of a race to wake Slaanesh. Since Draigo seems to have comparable power, what with wandering the warp and burning stuff, he'd need a lot more support to survive.
1000 of the most powerful psykers. these aren't the commonly hated magician of the Hab Streets, these are extremely powerful./
My idea is akin to how orks believe that their gun shouldn't jam, so it doesn't even though by all human reasoning the gun shouldn't even be able to load a round.
Two things:
1) The Ork is working with the combined power of all the Orks in the area, that's a fair amount of juice.
2) The Ork doesn't just believe that that his gun will work, he knows that his gun will work. Blessed are the minds too small to doubt, and all that. There's no reason why GKs would be able to muster up the same level of certainty about Draigo.
CpatTom wrote:One side of this argument wants the fact that tragic elements are what constitute Ward's product being good with concepts as proof he is a good writer.
The other side argues that the tragic elements are purely coincidence, and that this codex is the ooze that has prematurely seeped forth from an excited fan.
On the second point - I posit that Draigo is "tragic" precisely because he is so awesome. The guy is so ridiculously powerful that the only way to keep him from wrecking the entire setting and ending 40k is to put him in the Warp and assure everyone that all the damage he does self-repairs. Otherwise by now he undoubtedly would have already single-handedly killed Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Lucius (but not turned into him) as well as probably the entire Eldar race.
daveNYC wrote:
Deadshot wrote:His weakness is that he is alone and isolated. His being alive actually cripples the Chapter. The Chapter/Supreme Grand Master of a chapter niormally helps to make the importent discisions. With him in the Warp, they must rely on a coalition of Grand Masters. And they can't elect a new Master in his place.
Being alone and isolated, yet still being an unstoppable killing machine isn't exactly a weakness, and not being around to guide the chapter actually only hurts the chapter, not the character himself.
Was there anything in the fluff to explain why the Grey Knights didn't elect a new Chapter Master (or whatever their specific title is) after Draigo got pulled into the warp the first time? They must have assumed that he was dead, so why didn't they pick a new leader?
As with any good Mary Sue, his "flaws" are actually strengths.
daveNYC wrote:OK, here's another annoying aspect to the whole Draigo thing, per fluff he shows up to boot head on daemons because through the power of handwavium he is pulled through the same warp breach that the daemons come through.
Actually, according to my top secret sources, the summoned lesser daemons in the next CSM codex will be the same as the ones from the Chaos Daemons codex, but to balance this out when they suffer a Deep Strike mishap they are destroyed and Draigo is deployed instead (your opponent gets to control him). Also note that this may result in multiple Draigos on the table at the same time - Draigo is so awesome he can be in multiple places at once! Also, when Abaddon rolls a 1 to hit with Drachnyen Draigo's fist pops out and suckerpunches him in the face.
In fact, I heard that in 6th edition the Draigo unit entry will be copypasted in the main rulebook and the new Deep Strike mishap table will be altered as such:
1-2 Terrible accident! The entire unit is destroyed!
3-4 Misplaced. Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units!), in a valid Deep Stike formation, but without rolling for scatter.
5 Delayed. The unit is placed back in reserve. If the unit is unlucky enough that the game ends while it is still in reserve, it counts as destroyed.
6 DRAIGO! Now you're really in trouble! The entire unit is destroyed and replaced by Kaldor Draigo. Draigo is controlled by player with the highest roll on a D6 subject to the the following modifiers based on which army they play (your opponent wins any ties):
Grey Knights: +18
Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars: +12
Imperial Guard: +6
Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons: -6
Sisters of Battle: -12
The controlling player may deploy Draigo anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course does NOT count as dangerous for Kaldor Draigo since Draigo is obviously more dangerous to the terrain than than it is to him), but without rolling for scatter.
In fact, I heard that in 6th edition the Draigo unit entry will be copypasted in the main rulebook and the new Deep Strike mishap table will be altered as such:
1-2 Terrible accident! The entire unit is destroyed!
3-4 Misplaced. Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units!), in a valid Deep Stike formation, but without rolling for scatter.
5 Delayed. The unit is placed back in reserve. If the unit is unlucky enough that the game ends while it is still in reserve, it counts as destroyed.
6 DRAIGO! Now you're really in trouble! The entire unit is destroyed and replaced by Kaldor Draigo. Draigo is controlled by player with the highest roll on a D6 subject to the the following modifiers based on which army they play (your opponent wins any ties):
Ultramarines: +24
Grey Knights: +18
Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars: +12
Imperial Guard: +6
Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons: -6
Sisters of Battle: -12
The controlling player may deploy Draigo anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course does NOT count as dangerous for Kaldor Draigo since Draigo is obviously more dangerous to the terrain than than it is to him), but without rolling for scatter.
We all know that Draigo trapped himself in the void because he knew, deep down inside, that he could never be an ultramarine.
In fact, I heard that in 6th edition the Draigo unit entry will be copypasted in the main rulebook and the new Deep Strike mishap table will be altered as such:
1-2 Terrible accident! The entire unit is destroyed! 3-4 Misplaced. Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units!), in a valid Deep Stike formation, but without rolling for scatter. 5 Delayed. The unit is placed back in reserve. If the unit is unlucky enough that the game ends while it is still in reserve, it counts as destroyed. 6 DRAIGO! Now you're really in trouble! The entire unit is destroyed and replaced by Kaldor Draigo. Draigo is controlled by player with the highest roll on a D6 subject to the the following modifiers based on which army they play (your opponent wins any ties): Ultramarines: +24 Grey Knights: +18 Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars: +12 Imperial Guard: +6 Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons: -6 Sisters of Battle: -12 The controlling player may deploy Draigo anywhere on the table (including inside difficult terrain, which of course does NOT count as dangerous for Kaldor Draigo since Draigo is obviously more dangerous to the terrain than than it is to him), but without rolling for scatter.
We all know that Draigo trapped himself in the viod because he knew he could never be an ultramarine.
I heard it went like this.
Calgar to the then-Justicar Draigo "Kaldor, as Master of the Ultamate Legion of Smurfs, I command you to join my chapter as head librarian, to replace the fether Tiguirius. The bugger is talking to the Hive Mind and telling him what cards I am holding at HQ Poker Night! Come and serve me you mutant freak-er, I mean, noble Warrior! Come and serve the Blue Midgets!"
Draigo
" Hold on, I have got things to do! ui got Primarchs to beat up, Greater Daemons to wrestle with and I have to nuke Tallassar at 4, because M'kar the Reborn came back. That's the bugger who'll trap me in the Warp when I am supreme Grand Master!"
CalgaR-" Holy Throne, you're an arrogant little Hellspawn- I mean Knight, aren't you?"
There was only one Drago; Ivan. He was punched into oblivion by Rocky Balboa.
Any other fluff which I disagree with is ignored. It's not like I'm ever going to use the model or its rules, anyway - even as a GK player.
And what happens when your enemy plays him?
"OK, Draigo wounds and kills 3 of your marines!"
"Nu-uh, there's no one there!"
Well then, I'll deal with that rhetorical question if it ever happens.
1. I DON'T play in tournaments (so this will never happen) 2. There are NO other GK players in my area. There used to be but they got disgusted with no update in 10 years that they gave up and played something else - and they sold their stuff to me. 3. Most SM players switch (around here) from chapter to chapter more often than they change underwear (the idea of finding something and sticking with it* seems alien and unlogical** to them) and the next time my club has an inter-club gathering where it could happen, another SM codex will have been released, and those former GK (and before that, spiky dark black space blood wolf templar angels) players will be switching to play them
* Apart from one set of underwear and the idea of no deodorant. **Yes, I've had someone use this word in a sentence. Rather like Tenaciousness. You'd'a thunk they'd at least pick up some learnin's at that school thing they were made to attend.
I don't know, I think I picked it up in some other matt ward hate thread. Well, greater daemons did need a good stomping in the fluff; I don't see them putting up many Ws in the crunch.
I'm tired. I have neither time, nor the energy to properly organize thoughts on such a complex heretical conspiracy as those dealing with the truly magnificent Supreme Grand Master Draigo (A title more truthful, I have rarely had the pleasure to hear given to a faithful follower of our God-Emperor).
The lines of thoughts running rampant among the general imperial population on Dakkan 2 appear to represent a possible breach in Imperial Doctrine on the effects of the Warp on faithful servants of the God-Emperor. Further investigation into exactly what sentiments are spreading, and heretical elements must be dealt with as situation dictates.
I don't play in 40k tournaments, so I won't see it there.
I don't play in GW stores (there is ONE inside a 2 hour driving radius and it isn't big enough to skin a cat in - explains the smell though).
I don't play (40k) in an FLGS (I don't have a friendly LOCAL gaming store) the nearest one is over an hour away.
No-one in my gaming circle plays GK (apart from me), so I won't see it there. They seem to like Space Blood Wolf sparklies.
I will only be playing 40k up until 6th edition - so there's what? Another year to go?
So it is very much a rhetorical question from my pov.
Your kilometre**-age may diverge from this.
* See my previous statement. There is no drago but Ivan, and he was taken care of by rocky. ** We use metric here - maybe the adage suffers because of it. Better it than me.
I sometimerwe use metric, but sometimes Imperial to match 40K style.
I actually feel sorry for you, that you never get to see a Draigo model, play games regularly, or even play against armies of than Long Fang Razor spam.
Oh, I play most weekends. I have a choice of two clubs to attend.
I have actually seen the model (in the local GW store window - the wife's doctor's surgery is 2 doors down so I walk past it) and loathe the model anyway (it's too be-blinged with crap).
Thankfully, the main perpetrators of space blood wolf angel deathfang crap are not at my club when I am there - so I don't have to play them.
Besides, I also play Infinity to give myself a break from 40kwolfspam. Although with werewolves in Infinity, I can't get that far away from it.
Why will I be stopping at 6th ed?
What? After 25 years, you wouldn't want a break?
You don't get 25 years for murder these days.
Besides, I have a group itching to play Tomorrow's war with our existing 40k stuff - and we will consume mass quantities of beer whilst doing so. What more can I want?
chromedog wrote:* See my previous statement. There is no drago but Ivan, and he was taken care of by rocky.
Wait a minute... I get it! Draigo is just an elaborate set-up by Mat Ward for when he redoes the Imperial Guard codex! He creates this godlike killing machine more powerful than any other entity in the entire setting, only to have him beaten in a sparring match by SLY MARBO!*
*as revenge for the sanctioned death of his Catachan brother, Apollo Predatorius.
Now we have to delete the post. Somewhere out there, GW is patrolling Dakka, and when they see stuff like that, they turn round and shoput to Ward, so he'll have to change the idea.
Whilst considering the Emperor had decided to play pokemon, or digimon, or whatever pet leveling crap the emperor plays with the introduction of Sanguinomon and Draigomon, I completely missed the thread staring me right in the face! This is most definitively the answer, a set up for the Sly Marbo Draigo matchup!
Marbo-" No. Just no. Go home. Go back to slaying Priomarchs, you wortthless pieceof Ward. I beat Khorne in an arm wrestle, then killed him for lulz. Just....nah. Go home"
Depressed draigo-2 oh, well ok."
just walks off and opens a DEWWP type thing, is about to go in the Warp, and suddenly has a heart attack, one for each heart, simply because Marbo thought about having KFC for lunch.
daveNYC wrote:OK, here's another annoying aspect to the whole Draigo thing, per fluff he shows up to boot head on daemons because through the power of handwavium he is pulled through the same warp breach that the daemons come through. I'm willing to buy some sort of brotherly mojo works to pull Draigo into realspace when other GK are nearby, that can be fluffy, especially so if Draigo were actually a warp echo of the original Draigo, brought into being by Draigo's willpower and the GK's faith. What I don't get is how exactly does Draigo get to be used against, say Tau, or Tyranids, or any other army that doesn't require ripping a hole in the universe. You could try to excuse his use against Eldar types by saying he comes through the webway somehow, but even that is a huge stretch.
Durza wrote:Because (surprise, surprise) Ward didn't think his fluff through.
Tau: Experimentation with more efficient warp drives lead to a warp rift opening on a Tau world. Grey Knights arrive to stop its expansion before it threatens human worlds. Draigo accidentaly falls through.
Eldar: A Webway Gate is breached during a fight between Draigo and some Daemons. The Eldar show up to banish the daemons and fix the gate. Grey Knights arrive hoping to contact and recover their lost Supreme Grand Master.
Tyranids: The Shadow in the Warp is causing a massive daemonic exodus, Draigo is swept up with the rest of the tide and forced into the real world. Grey Knights arrive hoping to contact and recover their lost Supreme Grand Master.
Not every battle needs a narrative, and even then, the codex writers shouldn't have to explain these things for you. If you care enough about the story, you're able to make something up on your own.
Ironsight wrote:Tau: Experimentation with more efficient warp drives lead to a warp rift opening on a Tau world. Grey Knights arrive to stop its expansion before it threatens human worlds. Draigo accidentaly falls through.
Eldar: A Webway Gate is breached during a fight between Draigo and some Daemons. The Eldar show up to banish the daemons and fix the gate. Grey Knights arrive hoping to contact and recover their lost Supreme Grand Master.
Tyranids: The Shadow in the Warp is causing a massive daemonic exodus, Draigo is swept up with the rest of the tide and forced into the real world. Grey Knights arrive hoping to contact and recover their lost Supreme Grand Master.
Not every battle needs a narrative, and even then, the codex writers shouldn't have to explain these things for you. If you care enough about the story, you're able to make something up on your own.
Nice fluff. I agree that you don't need to explain exactly why Team A and Team B are fighting. Given the distribution of armies, there's probably so many Marine vs. Marine battles that it's probably a good idea not to think about it too much. It was more to point out an additional bad aspect to his fluff. In some ways, Draigo is similar to the Sanguinor, but at least in the Sanguinor's fluff, they had the good sense to leave a lot of the details vague.
Indeed some nice fluff ideas - although I think the Shadow in the Warp would have the opposite effect on Daemons, making it less likely to be able to mainfest?
The old WH and DH codexes had lots of good stuff like this IIRC
Both Daemons and Tyranids appeared at the same time in the same battle, fighting each other. Grey Knight's arrive to find an artifact before it's too late. This is the basic story of an entry in the Codex.
It was his first noteworthy heroic deed, defeating M'kar at Acralem. Then M'kar returned to Acralem, and Draigo banished him again, but was pulled into the Warp as well.
It was his first noteworthy heroic deed, defeating M'kar at Acralem. Then M'kar returned to Acralem, and Draigo banished him again, but was pulled into the Warp as well.
Just no one remembers because they are raging too hard about Morty.
Hell until I read the Codex, I thought Morty Pulled Draigo into the warp since no one ever mentions M'Kar.
Yep. Matt Ward pulls him out each time he needs a daemonic whipping boy, as with his appearances in C:SM, C:BA and C:GK. But those good with details may have notices it's becoming more apparent that M'Kar has motives to sow seeds of disruption, even if it always ends in banishment to the warp. Mephiston is on the path of self-doubt and now one of the Dark Gods most powerful antagonists has been cunningly trapped inside the warp for at least 10k. Don't be fooled, M'Kar is in it for the long-game.
Greyish wrote:Yep. Matt Ward pulls him out each time he needs a daemonic whipping boy, as with his appearances in C:SM, C:BA and C:GK. But those good with details may have notices it's becoming more apparent that M'Kar has motives to sow seeds of disruption, even if it always ends in banishment to the warp. Mephiston is on the path of self-doubt and now one of the Dark Gods most powerful antagonists has been cunningly trapped inside the warp for at least 10k. Don't be fooled, M'Kar is in it for the long-game.
he was also in it for the long game when he was playing Chess with Creed but putting Creeds knight next to his king seemed a bad idea in hindsight. No i am not going to make the joke it makes itself.
Another one chiming in for "Trying too hard." Frankly I found Thawn more interesting than Draigo. It's sad when coming back to life is less ridiculous and more badass than the alternative.
, clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
HERESEY! 
Edit for fire. For burn.
That is just... Perfect!!! The warp itself would be another factor, as it gradually finds a chink in his sanity. If the character as written is a load of tripe, it's best for all of us to have our personal interpretations.