oiad @ Heresy Online wrote:Many are hung up about two things in particular, both to do with the fluff:

1.He not only soloed a Daemon Primarch, he humiliated the cusser.
2.He was dragged into the warp, but didn't die. Quite the opposite - despite all-comers he continues to slay everything in sight, maintaining a pointless quest of sorts.

Take these out and give him something more grounded and people wouldn't have cared so much.

It's my impression that GW intended to create an iconic character that would stand amongst their most favoured heroes in their pantheon. Before their 5E codex, the Grey Knights had very few noteworthy characters, especially one's that could stand proud next to say, Grimnar or Mephiston. With 5E's focus on producing several characters per codex, it was obvious they were gonna need a lot of new material for the GKs and that players would expect a strong line-up. To most though they overshot it horrendously with Draigo.
...

Greyish wrote:When someone else asked the same question on one of the other forums this answer kinda summed it up for me..:

oiad @ Heresy Online wrote:Many are hung up about two things in particular, both to do with the fluff:

1.He not only soloed a Daemon Primarch, he humiliated the cusser.
2.He was dragged into the warp, but didn't die. Quite the opposite - despite all-comers he continues to slay everything in sight, maintaining a pointless quest of sorts.

Take these out and give him something more grounded and people wouldn't have cared so much.

It's my impression that GW intended to create an iconic character that would stand amongst their most favoured heroes in their pantheon. Before their 5E codex, the Grey Knights had very few noteworthy characters, especially one's that could stand proud next to say, Grimnar or Mephiston. With 5E's focus on producing several characters per codex, it was obvious they were gonna need a lot of new material for the GKs and that players would expect a strong line-up. To most though they overshot it horrendously with Draigo.
...

gabrielhorus wrote:Everyone acts as if he oneshotted a Daemon Primarch with his bare hands. All he did was step in once the previous Supreme Grand Master was down and finish the weakened (and already not the strongest primarch) Daemon. Given the amount of description of the actual fight, he may have just snuck up on the Daemon and run him through from behind as the Primarch gloated, then carved the previous Supreme Grand Master's name on the heart of the corpse.

iproxtaco wrote:Unless you really want to sit in stubborn denial foreverand try as hard as you can to make the incident as bad as you can for no reason, then we can safely say Mortarion wasn't 100%.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Unless you really want to sit in stubborn denial foreverand try as hard as you can to make the incident as bad as you can for no reason, then we can safely say Mortarion wasn't 100%.

Why would Mortarion need to be at less than 100% for Draigo to defeat him? Draigo defeats one of the strongest bloodthirsters with his bare hands - and this is in the friggin Warp where the bloodthirster would be at 100% full power unweakened by having to maintain a physical form. He burned down Nurgle's garden and knocked down Tzeentch's city. Why is it so hard to believe that he defeated a primarch?

Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Unless you really want to sit in stubborn denial foreverand try as hard as you can to make the incident as bad as you can for no reason, then we can safely say Mortarion wasn't 100%.

Why would Mortarion need to be at less than 100% for Draigo to defeat him? Draigo defeats one of the strongest bloodthirsters with his bare hands - and this is in the friggin Warp where the bloodthirster would be at 100% full power unweakened by having to maintain a physical form. He burned down Nurgle's garden and knocked down Tzeentch's city. Why is it so hard to believe that he defeated a primarch?

Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

I don't have to try very hard. Ann'grath the Unbound > Mortarion, ergo, Hector Rex > Draigo. Scarbrand > Mortarion, ergo, Dante > Draigo. Ku'gath > Mortarion, ergo, Justicar Thawn > Draigo. Guilliman/Ferrus Manus > Mortarion, ergo, Fulgrim > Draigo. Of course, Horus > Sanguinus > Angron > Fulgrim > Draigo. And the Emperor is better than all of them.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Unless you really want to sit in stubborn denial foreverand try as hard as you can to make the incident as bad as you can for no reason, then we can safely say Mortarion wasn't 100%.

Why would Mortarion need to be at less than 100% for Draigo to defeat him? Draigo defeats one of the strongest bloodthirsters with his bare hands - and this is in the friggin Warp where the bloodthirster would be at 100% full power unweakened by having to maintain a physical form. He burned down Nurgle's garden and knocked down Tzeentch's city. Why is it so hard to believe that he defeated a primarch?

Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

I don't have to try very hard. Ann'grath the Unbound > Mortarion, ergo, Hector Rex > Draigo. Scarbrand > Mortarion, ergo, Dante > Draigo. Ku'gath > Mortarion, ergo, Justicar Thawn > Draigo. Guilliman/Ferrus Manus > Mortarion, ergo, Fulgrim > Draigo. Of course, Horus > Sanguinus > Angron > Fulgrim > Draigo. And the Emperor is better than all of them.

I see you're not a mathematician.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

Kanluwen wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

We don't really need to "try" to make Draigo look weaker than he is.

The Grey Knights Codex actually does a fairly good job of it.
"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves."

Kanluwen wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Stop trying to make Draigo look weaker than he is. This guy is easily the most powerful being in the current setting short of a Chaos god (and even that's debatable given the fact that he roams the Realm of Chaos killing, maiming and burning at will and not even the Chaos gods can put a stop to him).

We don't really need to "try" to make Draigo look weaker than he is.

The Grey Knights Codex actually does a fairly good job of it.
"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves."

Durza wrote:I don't think that applies to princes. If it did, they could have just summoned them and turned them into swords for Inquisitors a long time ago.

bombboy1252 wrote:

Durza wrote:I don't think that applies to princes. If it did, they could have just summoned them and turned them into swords for Inquisitors a long time ago.

I always thought it did apply to princes...they are daemon princes after all...

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

I'll use that spare time to go and buy you a Dictionary and other guides to the English language because I don't even know what the hell that means.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

I'll use that spare time to go and buy you a Dictionary and other guides to the English language because I don't even know what the hell that means.

Yeah I forgot, you don't live in this parts so you don't know what I meant

The translation would be: "I will not say anything because I know that you will stay all night long and write 3 pages on this forum on why I am wrong with my statements and you are right."

It is in fact you who should buy a book called: "Balkan customs and words for newbies"

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again? -> Oh dear, it appears this topic of conversation is once again being discussed.

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right". -> I shall not force iproxtaco to display the numerous ways in which I am incorrect.

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released. -> But in all seriousness. Wasn't this asked almost thirty times since the latest book describing the rules and background of the Grey Knights was put on sale for ridiculously high prices?

I'll use that spare time to go and buy you a Dictionary and other guides to the English language because I don't even know what the hell that means.

iproxtaco wrote: I don't know how many threads have gone down thanks to your shenanigans.

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again? -> Oh dear, it appears this topic of conversation is once again being discussed.

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right". -> I shall not force iproxtaco to display the numerous ways in which I am right.

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released. -> But in all seriousness. Wasn't this asked almost thirty times since the latest book describing the rules and background of the Grey Knights was put on sale for ridiculously high prices?

I'll use that spare time to go and buy you a Dictionary and other guides to the English language because I don't even know what the hell that means.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote: I don't know how many threads have gone down thanks to your shenanigans.

Only 2, and both were mine. ( I asked for their closing )

But seriously, when someone asked something about Guard, Tau and Grey Knights we have like 15 pages of arguing "this is better" or " this will win because of.." or "I think this is likre this"...

Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knights Codex actually does a fairly good job of it.

Brother Coa wrote:Not tonight folks.

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is [fratboy impression].

Manchu wrote:The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos.

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is 'OMG, brah, why haven't you bought my sewper cewl super special awesome SPESS MAHREEN? I mean, come on dewd, he's totally pwned a primarch and everything!'

Brother Coa wrote:Not tonight folks.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Manchu wrote:The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos.

Actually, the point of Draigo is that he's invincible (and therefore you should buy his model and start a Grey Knight army).

Of course Ward had to put the bit in about the damage Draigo does not being permanent - if it was there wouldn't be any daemons left for the Chaos Daemons codex!

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is [fratboy impression].

Pointing out that GW employees want you to buy GW products is ... less than insightful. If that criticism makes Mat Ward's fiction suck then every single part of all 40k fiction and all fiction that is tied to a marketed franchise also sucks. So I think we had better take it for what it is and limit our criticism to what the man actually wrote -- a character who is the most effective, purest champion humanity can possibly generate and yet who cannot really stand up against Chaos at all. That's classic grimdark. Run it through the IQ-destroying culture of internet memes and it becomes the fratboy impression you just posted.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is [fratboy impression].

Pointing out that GW employees want you to buy GW products is ... less than insightful. If that criticism makes Mat Ward's fiction suck then every single part of all 40k fiction and all fiction that is tied to a marketed franchise also sucks. So I think we had better take it for what it is and limit our criticism to what the man actually wrote -- a character who is the most effective, purest champion humanity can possibly generate and yet who cannot really stand up against Chaos at all. That's classic grimdark. Run it through the IQ-destroying culture of internet memes and it becomes the fratboy impression you just posted.

So you're saying that the Draigo fluff is well written, insightful, and would have been considered remotely possible before the Grey Knights codex came out? Draigo's fluff explicitly states that not only can he stand up to Chaos, he regularly does, with impunity. And just because the majority of people agree something is terrible, it doesn't mean you're right when you say it's not. Classic grimdark would be if Mortarion came back and carved Nurgle's name in Draigo after Draigo was tired, because it would show their struggle is in fact hopeless. Your idiotic internet meme (yes, I can call your opinions memes to) reads into it far beyond what the writing deserves. Does Draigo get bested while fighting these innumerable hordes? No, because Ward doesn't want grim dark, he wants to have his own characters that are clearly better than anyone elses, because he says so.

It's quite amusing how instead of saying anything to refute my opinion, you simply slap the latest slang term over it and insult me, and will likely do so again.

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

Harriticus wrote:It'd be a great twist though that Draigo actually died that day against M'Kar and the Ordo Malleus made up his legend to inspire others, including new Grey Knights.

But GW doesn't have the balls for that of course, mostly because they couldn't sell a Draigo model then.

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

People like you take the fun out of the fluff. No imagination. This isn't YMDC. To me codexes are the propaganda of the respected race. And by proving the codex contridicts itself, i prove you can't trust it. But of course GW doesnt have the balls to have draigo be a chaos pawn. It'd be too cool.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:39:02

Post by: iproxtaco

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Harriticus wrote:It'd be a great twist though that Draigo actually died that day against M'Kar and the Ordo Malleus made up his legend to inspire others, including new Grey Knights.

But GW doesn't have the balls for that of course, mostly because they couldn't sell a Draigo model then.

Eldrad is dead. Doesn't he have a model? I know a lot of Eldar i've played used him

The difference being that Draigo isn't dead.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:39:29

Post by: Manchu

Durza wrote:It's quite amusing how instead of saying anything to refute my opinion, you simply slap the latest slang term over it and insult me, and will likely do so again.

So you're saying that the Draigo fluff is well written, insightful, and would have been considered remotely possible before the Grey Knights codex came out?

I don't understand ... you seem to recognize that I said something to refute your opinion other than insult you, which I did, but you also say that I didn't ... I guess you're trying to be sarcastic. But sarcasm is saying something that is the opposite of what is the case to emphasize it's not the case. For example, saying "oh this is really some great weather" in the middle of a hurricane. But what you've done is said "wow, you addressed my point" ... when that's what I actually did.

bombboy1252 wrote:I mean come on, would anyone buy a draigo model if his description was "So Draigo went into the warp....and he died...the end"

That's exactly right. If Ward had written that, he'd deserve some of the hate he currently gets. But fortunately he didn't write that.

girgam wrote:i think what Draigo has done for the 40k fluff is make matt ward a target, even if he does write something that is insightful and brilliant it will be picked apart like crows fighting over a carcass.

People on the internet complained about Mat Ward many years before we even guessed he'd write a new GK book. The hatred in this case is mostly a knee-jerk reaction; more of the same old stuff.

Harriticus wrote:I think Draigo is the symbol of the transition of GK fluff from a Chapter of heroes who struggle against the Daemonic in a never ending and ultimately unwinnable secret war to GK are a chapter of heroes who terrorize Daemons in a never ending war.

Yes, exactly right.

Harriticus wrote:I like the image that the Grey Knights are constantly the underdog in their secret war, but more lately the image that comes to mind is an army of unstoppable Daemon killers that Daemons can do nothing against so their best option is to just avoid them entirely.

Wait ... no, that's not the point of Kaldor Draigo -- it's the opposite, like you just said. Of course, what happens on the tabletop is a different matter. I hear a lot of Daemons players saying exactly this but that is "new codex" syndrome and not a reflection on their fluff.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:40:03

Post by: iproxtaco

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

People like you take the fun out of the fluff. No imagination. This isn't YMDC. To me codexes are the propaganda of the respected race. And by proving the codex contridicts itself, i prove you can't trust it. But of course GW doesnt have the balls to have draigo be a chaos pawn. It'd be too cool.

Draigo is a pawn, he is a Daemon.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:40:54

Post by: Manchu

iproxtaco wrote:The difference being that Draigo isn't dead.

But the point is whether there is a model isn't contingent on the character being alive.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:42:04

Post by: bombboy1252

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. Draigo is a corrupted GK and escaped into the warp to hide with the other renegade marines. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

...........That's makes no sense....Grey Knights can't be corrupted...

Yes buy into the propaganda. Like a good little imperial citizen. It will help you sleep at night.

I've already listed how i deduced that the Grey Knights can be corrupted. in another thread. Let me find it...

Here are the key tenets of my arguement. The thread is found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/404908.page

Spoiler:

Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.
Fact They fight along side deamons.
Fact: They use deamon blades.
Fact: They have a Knight in the warp. Now if the bloodtide can corrupt a grey knight, the warp can too. So either hes now dead, or corrupted and the inquisition is covering it up or he is a super special snowflake.

My reasoning. Using the facts, especially the use of deamon allies and deamon blades, the whole chapter has fallen to chaos.

Or the knights can be corrupted, and the ones who are are executed or escape into the warp. Inquisition covers it up.

But it clearly says in the codex, "not a single grey knight has ever fallen to chaos". The information from the codex wasn't written by an inquisitor, it was written by a person IRL. Matt Ward isn't an inquisitor, or a brain-washed imperial citizen...thus you're point is invalid...

Please don't. Just read Crowe's entry and be done with it, the Codex contradicts itself.

All me reading Crowe's entry proved is that he hasn't been corrupted by the sword........

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:43:49

Post by: iproxtaco

But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:44:18

Post by: Manchu

obviosbluecaboose wrote:Fact. Grey Knights cannot be corrupted.
Fact. They killed the sisters to use their blood to fight corruption.
These two facts contradict each other. Either they are incorruptible and killed the sisters for no reason (or perhaps blood for the blood god). Or they can be corrupted.

Your using the meanings of "corrupted" interchangeably. "Corrupted," regarding the Blood Tide, means something like "infected." It has nothing to do with whether one is morally lax or completely resolute in your faith. That's why some of the Sisters were corrupted by it, even though they are famous for being faithful. The other sense of "corrupted" means something like "fallen." In this sense, the GK did not become corrupted. But remember -- it's not that it is impossible for them to fall. It's that they never have yet.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:44:30

Post by: bombboy1252

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:44:36

Post by: Manchu

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

Precisely, as usual.

Reply by: ObliviousBlueCaboose - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:47:49

Post by: ObliviousBlueCaboose

Manchu wrote: ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:48:26

Post by: iproxtaco

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

You did earlier, but never mind.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:49:07

Post by: bombboy1252

iproxtaco wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But that he CAN be corrupted by it, that he has to resist the temptations.

And he resists, just like other grey knights do....

I never said it was impossible for them to be corrupt, I was saying none of them have...Crowe included

You did earlier, but never mind.

When?

Edit: Never mind I'm tired...

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 00:49:58

Post by: iproxtaco

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Manchu wrote: ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Draigo is dead. The Inquisition/GK leadership is making a propaganda piece about him.

It can't be this because the Inquisition isn't interested in propaganda. That's someone else's job. Who would they even be propagandizing since the very existence of the GK is a secret? Incidentally, that also rules out your second point.

Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

When it says none of them have fallen to Chaos, it means, not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. Try and contradict that.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 01:00:44

Post by: Manchu

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Its the waning times of the imperium. I also mentioned the GK leadership. Could be used to keep moral up. And point one doesnt rule out point two. The GK leadership has a reputation to uphold. OR maybe the entire chapter is corrupted and their in on it. You can never be sure when it comes to chaos.

At first, I just want to say "bs" but it's true that one never really does know. At the same time, this kind of reductive logic doesn't make for very good discussion. "Anything is possible" renders your point equally valid, or worthless, as its opposite.

Reply by: ObliviousBlueCaboose - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 02:17:03

Post by: ObliviousBlueCaboose

Okay. It says no grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. I can't contradict that using the Codex, i can only say that they can be corrupted. And since they can be corrupted, eventually ones going to fall.

I understand you guys love your Pure Holy Grey Knights, but you have to admit its cannon they can be corrupted.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 02:18:04

Post by: Manchu

It'd be dumb if there was no chance of corrupting them. But by your logic, it doesn't matter what the codex says anyway -- it's probably just propaganda.

Reply by: ObliviousBlueCaboose - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 02:21:04

Post by: ObliviousBlueCaboose

Exactly, propaganda to make them look like the Bestest, Bravest, Incorruptable-est badass Marines ever. Every codex is written to be propaganda for its respected army. Its trying to promote the army.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 02:44:13

Post by: candy.man

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knights Codex actually does a fairly good job of it.

This is the best and maybe only worthwhile (hence best) comment I've ever seen someone make about the Draigo fluff.

The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos. So the questions that Mat Ward is trying to ask you, the hook he's trying to get into your imagination is: if you knew you could never win, would you still fight? What motivates a man to do so?

Kanluwen wins the thread. Possibly the 40k Discussion sub-forum.

No he doesn’t. Kanluwen has made this point before. Whilst yes, one can say that the “tragic, fleeting struggle” is what the author was going for, did the author achieve this in a reasonable and enjoyable manner? The answer is no.

The motivations and the tragedy are the underlying messages of the story BUT they are not the key focus of the story. The key focus in the story, due to the way it is written, is the repeated attempts to emphasise Draigo’s physical prowess and victories above all else. Why is Draigo written to be victorious against a daemon primarch versus other possible daemonic villains that could have been used? Why is Draigo able to reforge a daemonic weapon with ease? Why is Draigo single-handedly victorious in all combat he participates against? Why is Draigo able to escape from the warp to lead the Grey Knights to victory when he is needed?

If the intention was to focus on Draigo as a tragic figure then there would be more focus on Draigo’s inner workings, symbolism, themes and parallels. Instead we see a piece that dictates victory after victory. There is little character discussion or development for Draigo in the entire piece making it hard to understand his motivations or his reasoning to persevere. If anything, his victories emphasise his existence as symbol of destruction against Chaos itself (in all forms, no matter how powerful).

By all means, one can say he is tragic, it does not change the fact that at the end of the day, Draigo is a mary sue, doomed to exist in a poorly written piece of fiction.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 02:55:28

Post by: Manchu

It seems to me that the focus on Draigo being so powerful, so strong, able to do so much is to emphasize how powerful chaos is. It wouldn't be much of a point if he achieved merely reasonable "victories" over his enemies.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:02:08

Post by: Kanluwen

candy.man wrote:
The motivations and the tragedy are the underlying messages of the story BUT they are not the key focus of the story. The key focus in the story, due to the way it is written, is the repeated attempts to emphasise Draigo’s physical prowess and victories above all else.

Really? Heh. Because to me at least it seemed that the stuff that Ward focuses most upon is spiritual incorruptibility.

Why is Draigo written to be victorious against a daemon primarch versus other possible daemonic villains that could have been used?

Like what? The Bloodthirsters--which Sanguinius was able to break over his knee? Which Inquisitor Rex was able to banish (after defeating in martial combat, mind you) the most powerful of himself?

The Great Unclean Ones, who really don't look all too physically imposing and are defeated pretty handily by non-Grey Knights?

Lords of Change? Please. We already have a Grey Knight whose arch enemy is a Lord of Change, and where it is the 'main daemonic villain'.
Brother-Captain Stern ring a bell?

Keepers of Secret? We have a place where that happens too, Prince Tyrion in WHFB.

Why is Draigo able to reforge a daemonic weapon with ease?

Probably because it was in the Warp at the time, where even the weakest physical body can be a demigod provided their psyker capabilities are powerful enough?

Why is Draigo single-handedly victorious in all combat he participates against?

Who knows. Maybe he's just that good.

Why is Draigo able to escape from the warp to lead the Grey Knights to victory when he is needed?

He's not. He's "able to escape" from the Warp when the barrier between the material realm and the Immaterium is at its thinnest--y'know, like when there's a huge Daemonic incursion...which the Grey Knights usually will happen to be at.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:05:00

Post by: Void__Dragon

Kanluwen wrote:The Great Unclean Ones, who really don't look all too physically imposing

?

They look fat, but so do most Olympic strongmen...

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:35:11

Post by: candy.man

Thanks for your reply Kan. To me at least, Ward didn’t focus so much on the spirit of corruptibility per say but rather he is unstoppable against chaos. The spirit of incorruptibility was better emphasised through Stern, Crowe and Mordrak. There’s no duality or mental struggle with Draigo, to emphaise incorruptibility. The entire piece practically bullet points victories in physical prowess only.

In regards to a choice of opponent, these are not good enough reasons why Draigo should defeat a daemon primarch. Sanguinius was a primarch it took a very great feat to break the Bloodthirster’s back. It was not an incredibly easy task for Sanguinius to do this.

As for Rex, his victory over Angrath was partly due to luck and plot armour otherwise Rex profile would be vastly superior to Angrath’s. Rex’s victory was a 1 in a million victory and it is not like he is able to vanquish apoc daemons at the drop of a hat.

As for the other choices, why are these inappropriate? All greater daemons are powerful and only the best of the best of Grey Knights can go toe to toe with one without wearing Dreadknight armour. Draigo is a talented individual and it would have been a great read if he was victorious against a normal greater daemon. There is no need for Draigo’s victories to be bigger and better than everyone else. A daemon primarch is above Draigo’s level in terms of fluff and power and thus makes it an unrealistic read.

As for his prowess, why was he written to be that good? What purpose does it serve? It took 100 Grey Knights to sacrifice their lives to banish Angron with their psychic blast. Does that mean Draigo has the strength of 100 Grey Knights? If Draigo can defeat a daemon primarch, does that mean he is as strong as a primarch? Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:41:12

Post by: Void__Dragon

candy.man wrote:It took 100 Grand Masters to sacrifice their lives to banish Angron, does that mean Draigo has the strength of 100 Grand Masters?

Whoa now.

It took 100 Grey Knight Terminators, the highest ranked one being a Brother Captain. And they also had to fight Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:50:57

Post by: candy.man

Oh sorry, my bad, that is what I meant. According to the lexi, they summoned a giant psychic blast to banish him.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:56:45

Post by: Void__Dragon

candy.man wrote:Oh sorry, my bad, that is what I meant. According to the lexi, they summoned a giant psychic blast to banish him.

Actually, the remaining Terminators, a few dozen, I think, focused all of their power into one psychic attack, stronger than the sum of its parts, and fired it at Angron, like you said... Only that didn't banish Angron. It should have, but through sheer force of will he clung to the Materium. The Brother Captain then beheaded him.

A bit more dignified and manly a defeat than pushed to the ground and written on.

In principal Draigo defeating Mortarion isn't bad, but it's the fact that it was done in such a humiliating manner.

Say Draigo were to of instead used the last of his psychic might to force Mortarion, who so recently murdered the former Supreme Grand Master, to his knees, and using his sanctified blade he carved a holy seal into the Daemon Primarch's heart, invoking the blessed name of the deceased Supreme Grand Master, perhaps channeling his fading Warp Essence, to banish him.

Or something stupid like that. It beats "I forced him to the ground and wrote a name on his heart."

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 03:59:03

Post by: Manchu

candy.man wrote:Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

What a strange criticism of 40k fluff. Again, if he wasn't extremely powerful and victorious his story wouldn't work at all.

Reply by: Ironsight - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:01:43

Post by: Ironsight

I think a huge part of the problem is that the entire battle is just one longer than normal timeline entry. Hopefully, we'll get a WD short story or BL book that will give us the details we need in the future.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:08:39

Post by: bombboy1252

As much as I would like to read a Draigo themed black library book, I would hate to constantly read everyone post how bad it is...just because Draigo is in it...

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:13:32

Post by: candy.man

Manchu wrote:

candy.man wrote:Again, making Draigo extremely powerful and extremely victorious makes his story unbelievable

What a strange criticism of 40k fluff. Again, if he wasn't extremely powerful and victorious his story wouldn't work at all.

But there in lies the other problem with his fluff being that he exists solely to be victorious in battle. In order for the intended nature of his fluff to work, being the incorruptibility, perseverance and tragedy, the author would have written his story differently, emphasising on his inner workings, not unparalleled victories.

If the entire purpose of his fluff is to make Draigo seem powerful and unstoppable then making Draigo unparalleled in terms of strength would fit but that would be admitting that the tragedy aspect is not the key focus for the story, therefore admitting that the entire purpose of Draigo’s existence is as a mary sue.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:14:39

Post by: Manchu

bombboy1252 wrote:As much as I would like to read a Draigo themed black library book, I would hate to constantly read everyone post how bad it is...just because Draigo is in it...

QFT. I dread the release of the Necron codex for this reason. From what yakface has posted, it sounds very good (not to say I didn't like the last one) but Dakka will be inundated with hatred for weeks and weeks. OTT, most people will completely forget that he wrote the GK dex in this same period. We might ask ourselves: what unfortunate Necron Lord will be the new whipping boy? And I can't wait for all the image macros, let me tell you. Fortunately, named characters don't seem to make it into much of the BL books anymore or vice versa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:... therefore admitting that the entire purpose of Draigo’s existence is as a mary sue.

Not at all. The focus is on his overwhelming strength at-arms because he is a warrior character in a game about fighting wars, often involving hand-to-hand combat with monstrous creatures. I'm not stupid, I know the character was written with this context in mind -- I just don't think that's all there is to him nor do I think Mat Ward wrote this character to stand in for himself to fulfill his own fantasies (which as I understand it is the definition of the word Mary Sue). Like I keep saying, in order for the idea of Chaos being insurmountably overpowering to come through, Draigo has to be OTT awesome (which is just fine in 40k; realism is of no value when we talk about the space knight fighting the demon monster). We don't need to know about Draigo's inner struggles to get that Chaos is ultimately invincible. We just need to know that even him, the ultimate anti-daemon badass, cannot make a lasting dent. And for that to be astonishing, the temporary dents he does make have to be huge.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:22:18

Post by: candy.man

A Draigo Black library book that retcons the mary sue nature of his fluff would actually be pretty good. It would need to have deep character narration from Draigo himself and thoroughly explore the psychological aspects of his journey.

What everyone would hate would be a book that further accentuates his mary sue nature. I wouldn’t want to read 500 pages of how Draigo roundhouse kicks all opponents that dare cross his path.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:25:30

Post by: Void__Dragon

It's largely opinion.

Personally, as a Necron fan, I dread the rumors of the new fluff, but hold nothing against those who like it.

I will ask this though: Other than being Grey Knight+, what distinguishing character traits does Draigo have?

Even if his "struggle" is indeed futile and even if it were conveyed convincingly, which I don't think it is, I really can't give a gak about someone's struggle when their entire history consists of some guy doing a bunch of things.

I recognise that that describes a few 40k characters, but I don't think that excuses it. Quite the contrary, really.

Marbo is another such character, lacking any interesting character traits. He's just some guy who does things.

Also, a Mary Sue is not necessarily an Author Avatar Manchu. But I don't think Draigo is a traditional Mary Sue because, quite simply, he doesn't really have any character traits to signify him as one... He's a Godmode Sue though, I'd say.

Darn TV Tropes making its way into my forum posting.

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:25:46

Post by: Varrick

candy.man wrote:A Draigo Black library book that retcons the mary sue nature of his fluff would actually be pretty good. It would need to have deep character narration from Draigo himself and thoroughly explore the psychological aspects of his journey.

What everyone would hate would be a book that further accentuates his mary sue nature. I wouldn’t want to read 500 pages of how Draigo roundhouse kicks all opponents that dare cross his path.

Sounds good. I might enjoy a series of it depending on the writer and how it was done.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:34:01

Post by: Manchu

My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:45:59

Post by: Void__Dragon

Manchu wrote:My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

I hate Batman. I hate everything about him. Just thought you should know.

If you like characters who run around beating the gak out of everything while not giving a single feth... Well, all the more power to you I guess.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:47:19

Post by: Manchu

And if you like characters who run around getting the gak beat out of them while crying big tears of sensitivity, more power to you as well. I just think that you're not going to find what you're looking for in 40k.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:48:18

Post by: bombboy1252

....That was the best Draigo defense I have ever heard Manchu.....

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:48:34

Post by: Varrick

And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

I am not defending or attacking the mary sue status of Draigo; but until more info comes out(from a better writer no less) just deal with Draigo being the wet dream enemy of Chuck Norris until then.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:49:52

Post by: bombboy1252

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:53:05

Post by: Varrick

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

The over analyzing is going into inception mode of "hes a marry sue meant to be tragic, then a tragedy meant to be a marry sue, and so on.

Frankly i am not sick of draigo threads because of the subject matter or Wards writing but how everyone has this "we must go deeper" mentality. I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:55:01

Post by: Void__Dragon

Manchu wrote:And if you like characters who run around getting the gak beat out of them while crying big tears of sensitivity, more power to you as well. I just think that you're not going to find what you're looking for in 40k.

Yeah I never said that. I never said Draigo should never win.

I apologise for my perhaps condescending tone in my last post, but I personally find Draigo's fluff stupid, OTT (Even by 40k's standards), and if it meant to convey a tragic or grimdark tone, I honestly believe it failed, completely, wholly, and utterly. Draigo is capable of feats that not a single other being has matched within the setting. It's so incredibly OTT any theme Ward was going for is lost in the bad writing, I can't look at his fluff and think "Wow that's tragic" when he kicks the gak out of all comers in the Materium or in the Warp, and does ridiculous crap like burn down the Gardens of Nurgle's domain, or smashes the Inevitable City to rubble (The fact that he even made it to the City past the labyrinth is insane in of itself).

No codex is some incredible literary achievement. But I find Draigo's fluff particularly bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Varrick wrote:I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

+1

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:57:37

Post by: bombboy1252

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote: And if you like to over analyze bad writing trying to justify it more power to you.

If you like to say someones writing is bad because you barely analyzed it at all...more power to you as well...

The over analyzing is going into inception mode of "hes a marry sue meant to be tragic, then a tragedy meant to be a marry sue, and so on.

Frankly i am not sick of draigo threads because of the subject matter or Wards writing but how everyone has this "we must go deeper" mentality. I keep expecting the Balrog to burst free from the thread. But i am sick of them.

Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:58:57

Post by: Void__Dragon

bombboy1252 wrote:Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

How do you figure?

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 04:59:41

Post by: bombboy1252

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Whenever I see a Draigo thread, I just keep seeing people post "Pffft, what a mary sue" and "Theirs no way a Grey Knight would be able to kill a daemon primarch"

I find these threads start because people don't look deeper, and if they learned how to analyze a short story in highschool, it could of all been avoided in the first place...

How do you figure?

What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:00:03

Post by: Manchu

Varrick, let me re-analyze it at what you seem to consider the appropriate level: MarySue MarySue Draigo MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue Mat Ward MarySue 40k MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue unrealistic MarySue MarySue MarySue Mortarion MarySue Draigo MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue MarySue. (sources: 1d4chan and TV Tropes)

V__D: I don't think you're bad or stupid for liking different things than me. I mean, it's one thing to say "X is not to my taste" and it's another thing to say "X is objectively worthless for everyone." So I appreciate that you admit you don't like Draigo personally rather than stating, as I have read again and again on Dakka, that no reasonable fan of 40k could possibly like Draigo.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:01:49

Post by: Void__Dragon

bombboy1252 wrote:What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

The second part, mostly.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

26204

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:03:25

Post by: candy.man

Manchu wrote:My favorite superhero is Batman. He's a "normal" human being who whups the gak out of everyone, including Supes when he gets out of hand. The fact that he is so fething tenacious -- in fact, Batman is pretty well OTT -- does not make me like him less. That's one of the reasons I like him and find him interesting. Here's this non-powered character that stands toe-to-toe with cosmically powerful beings. With Draigo, it's a bit like that. When Batman opens up on the bad guys, I'm rooting for him and not complaining about "they just want to sell more comics" or "that is totally unrealistic" or "he's just Tony Daniel's mary sue." As Batman is to Superman so Draigo is to greater daemons. (You have to keep in mind that 40k generally is far more OTT than almost anything in comics, at least DC Comics.) The fact that he's not a Primarch, or something like that, and still chews the face off of Mortarion and a Lord of Change, etc, makes him cool to me along those same lines. It makes me think "this is one tenacious guy." And the fact that even he can't do anything about Chaos in the long-term -- well, that's the bleak truth of it, the GrimDark. That's the twist that makes him truly great because it's not like he doesn't know this. Why not just give in? But he doesn't because he's a tenacious, daemon-stomping sonuvabitch GK grand master. Kaldor Draigo runs up to Mortarion, writes some fallen GK's name on his heart, and might as well be screaming "I'm the goddamned Batman!" right in his corrupted ear. Mat Ward may not be Shakespeare but I like the character and I don't think him being OTT (in 40k of all places, where everything else has always been so reasonable and believable and focused on characters' feelings and moods) is any kind of problem.

Didn’t you state earlier that the purpose of his story is to emphasise Draigo as a tragic figure. Are you now saying his purpose is to be a bad ass?

I don’t think Batman is a good comparison here as the Batman comics, especially the newer takes on his origin story, deeply analyse his inner workings and how he came to be. He does not battle criminals solely be victorious but rather for Gotham itself so other people don’t experience a similar tragedy to the one he encountered as a child. He often takes the extra step to get the job done. He often wins battles with his mind, rather than his physical strength and the fact that Superman has entrusted kryptonite with Batman says a lot about his character. There’s also a duality with between his physical and mental struggles and his good/bad moral actions. Whilst Batman is often victorious, the emphasis is never on his victories.

Draigo lacks everything that makes Batman good. There is no analysis on his character, no duality, no mental struggle, no defining character traits, nothing that defines him outside of battle. All that exists with Draigo are battles and victories with each opponent seemingly more powerful than the previous.

Now if Draigo’s profile was written to have the same level of depth and quality as Batman (as silly as it sounds) that would make his story a lot more palatable amongst the fanbase.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:05:15

Post by: bombboy1252

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:What do I figure, what part of my post are you asking about?

The second part, mostly.

ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:05:33

Post by: Void__Dragon

Manchu wrote:V__D: I don't think you're bad or stupid for liking different things than me. I mean, it's one thing to say "X is not to my taste" and it's another thing to say "X is objectively worthless for everyone." So I appreciate that you admit you don't like Draigo personally rather than stating, as I have read again and again on Dakka, that no reasonable fan of 40k could possibly like Draigo.

Well as a Necron fan I'm obligated to, since my favorite faction has a hatedom of its own as well.

And besides, I've accepted that some people can have legitimate reasons for liking Leman Russ, a character I like less than Draigo.

Do note I don't think every character needs to be INCREDIBLY DEEP AND BROODING or anything like that, I just would prefer to get an inkling of a character's personality from the fluff, even if it's not particularly original or complex. Which sounds hypocritical, now that I think of it, being a Necron fan...

It's all in good fun anyway. I try not to get serious about a fictional universe like 40k.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:07:49

Post by: Manchu

@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:14:39

Post by: Void__Dragon

Manchu wrote:@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Comic books are just as capable of depth and complexity as any other medium IMO. I think great comics like Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, All-Star Superman, and Kingdom Come and stuff have proven that, at least in my mind.

In fact, I'd say soap operas are easily one of the worst forms of media.

A bit off-topic, admittedly. Will balance it out with an off-topic response!

bombboy1252 wrote:ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Some people obviously do, and a lot of Ward's fluff is blown way out of proportion, namely the alleged Blood Angel x Necron "brofist."

But at the same time, some have read it, have discussed it thoroughly, and still don't like it.

I take no issue with you for liking it, but I personally don't find it as, for lack of better term, "deep", or maybe "interesting," as you do.

Or rather, I think some of the themes you talk about are there, but the execution was really lackluster, IMO.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:22:02

Post by: bombboy1252

Void__Dragon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:ahh....okay

I believe people just quickly read through Draigo's bit of fluff, and immediately decide "well this guy is just more Ward crap, what a load of gak, this guy just ridiculous"
and if they were to actually re-read, and analyze with the rest of the GK background, they would find out that Draigo's fluff is basically what the entirety of the Grey Knights are doing.
(Defeating daemons, but the daemons just come back, and theirs nothing they can do about it)

But that's just my opinion on it...

Some people obviously do, and a lot of Ward's fluff is blown way out of proportion, namely the alleged Blood Angel x Necron "brofist."

But at the same time, some have read it, have discussed it thoroughly, and still don't like it.

I take no issue with you for liking it, but I personally don't find it as, for lack of better term, "deep", or maybe "interesting," as you do.

Or rather, I think some of the themes you talk about are there, but the execution was really lackluster, IMO.

Than I believe were going to have to agree to disagree good sir. *puts on hat, and leaves the thread....never to be seen again*

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

26204

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 05:35:13

Post by: candy.man

Manchu wrote:@c.m: Just like with Draigo, you want Batman to be all about the mental facet of his character. But he's a superhero and not a character on a soap opera. Yeah, he's complex emotionally but the only reason any of us care about that is because he kicks ass. So you're trying to make me out as contradicting myself: is Draigo supposed to emphasize the power of Chaos (I never, never used the word "tragic" and never would) -OR- is he a badass. This illustrates the part of my point that you keep missing -- Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

You sort of missed my point about Batman. I was getting that that because his is character traits are complex, his capabilities are easier to palate. Yes he is a bad ass superhero and the reason why we read but if this was his sole defining trait than no one would like Batman. It’s one of the reasons why no one writes 1950’s style comic book plots anymore.

Which brings us back to the power thing? You can’t have a single person emphasise the opposite of chaos or oppose it single handedly. No matter no many victories to tack on his belt and to do that it makes the entire his story unbelievable and silly. If there were more to Draigo than to just his existence to oppose Chaos itself in all forms in a victorious manner, there might be justification to his story but there isn’t (Batman has complex character traits which justifies his capabilities). That is the key flaw with his background. He is defined solely by defeating powerful opponents and nothing else. He exists solely to defeat powerful opponents. There aren’t any character traits whatsoever to make the suggested Chaos symbolism work. He lacks the depth to make the comparison work. You can’t have a deep meaningful comparison like the one you’re suggesting if there isn’t any depth to the story to begin with.

And to say he must be super duper strong in order for this comparison to work is also silly as there ways to have him symbolically oppose chaos without having Draigo literally do it with his sword every time.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 06:07:47

Post by: Seaward

What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 06:31:00

Post by: iproxtaco

I dunno about any sort of "metaphor for the Imperium" stuff, there's nothing in Draigo's fluff that really indicts that, I at least agree it's not intentional. However, he still deliberately meant to have a tragic aspect.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 07:20:42

Post by: bombboy1252

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 07:48:31

Post by: Seaward

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

26204

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 09:49:22

Post by: candy.man

Seaward wrote:No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

+1 to this.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 10:40:19

Post by: Durza

bombboy1252 wrote:

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:No, the question Ward is trying to ask you is [fratboy impression].

Pointing out that GW employees want you to buy GW products is ... less than insightful. If that criticism makes Mat Ward's fiction suck then every single part of all 40k fiction and all fiction that is tied to a marketed franchise also sucks. So I think we had better take it for what it is and limit our criticism to what the man actually wrote -- a character who is the most effective, purest champion humanity can possibly generate and yet who cannot really stand up against Chaos at all. That's classic grimdark. Run it through the IQ-destroying culture of internet memes and it becomes the fratboy impression you just posted.

So you're saying that the Draigo fluff is well written, insightful, and would have been considered remotely possible before the Grey Knights codex came out? Draigo's fluff explicitly states that not only can he stand up to Chaos, he regularly does, with impunity. And just because the majority of people agree something is terrible, it doesn't mean you're right when you say it's not. Classic grimdark would be if Mortarion came back and carved Nurgle's name in Draigo after Draigo was tired, because it would show their struggle is in fact hopeless. Your idiotic internet meme (yes, I can call your opinions memes to) reads into it far beyond what the writing deserves. Does Draigo get bested while fighting these innumerable hordes? No, because Ward doesn't want grim dark, he wants to have his own characters that are clearly better than anyone elses, because he says so.

It's quite amusing how instead of saying anything to refute my opinion, you simply slap the latest slang term over it and insult me, and will likely do so again.

1) Thats exactly what hes saying

2) Like the rest of the Grey Knights?

3) Their all opinions...

4) Draigo does a good job of that all ready...

5) Don't act like a fratboy if you don't want people saying you're acting like a fratboy...

1)Then I feel sorry for him and you, since you seem to agree with him.

2)If you count 'with a high chance of death' as 'with impunity', then yeah, sure.

3)Yes, they are, so there's no need to insult people over them. Especially when you're wrong.

4)Yes, being an invincible warrior defeating legions of daemons without ever getting hurt is really hopeless.

5)I would ask if you know what the actual meaning of fratboy is, but I don't really care.

Reply by: Greyish - click to view full reply 

44735

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 11:49:50

Post by: Greyish

Void__Dragon wrote:In principal Draigo defeating Mortarion isn't bad, but it's the fact that it was done in such a humiliating manner.

Say Draigo were to of instead used the last of his psychic might to force Mortarion, who so recently murdered the former Supreme Grand Master, to his knees, and using his sanctified blade he carved a holy seal into the Daemon Primarch's heart, invoking the blessed name of the deceased Supreme Grand Master, perhaps channeling his fading Warp Essence, to banish him.

Exactly. It's not that he necessarily won but it's the details, especially how Draigo had time to give the daemon open-heart surgery. Okay, so he took on the Primarch in revenge regardless of the threat it entailed, but the branding just comes across as just petty mickey-taking. To cap off it all, Mortarion 'escapes' afterwards. What kind of GK spends time doodling names after beating someone so powerful instead of properly banishing them? Draigo just reads like a snide bully and both characters seem incompetent.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 11:52:37

Post by: Durza

Wouldn't him escaping to the warp achieve essentially the same thing as a banishment though?

An interesting idea here: if Draigo can beat Mortarion and Draigo is legal for use, shouldn't that mean GW will have to bring Mortarion into use since he clearly wouldn't be a game breaker if Draigo, an existing playable model can beat him?

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 13:34:16

Post by: Manchu

candy.man wrote:And to say he must be super duper strong in order for this comparison to work is also silly as there ways to have him symbolically oppose chaos without having Draigo literally do it with his sword every time.

I'm not missing your point. I'm disagreeing with it. The GrimDark isn't about symbolism. Rather than one thing standing for another, you simply have the thing itself. This is possible in a fictional world with warp daemons and space knights. J.R.R. Tolkien once described his fantasy characters as being on the outside who we (real people) are on the inside. It's the same idea, kicked into the highest gear, with 40k. There is no use in metaphorically fighting Chaos in a setting defined by endless war.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 13:45:07

Post by: Durza

Yes, but the grim dark feeling of 40k was originally from two seemingly endless armies confronting each other in a war which would never end. Now its a contest between who has the most epic character.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 13:54:44

Post by: Manchu

Draigo is the epitome of endless confrontation.

Reply by: SomeRandomEvilGuy - click to view full reply 

40749

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 14:09:31

Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy

Greyish wrote:To cap off it all, Mortarion 'escapes' afterwards. What kind of GK spends time doodling names after beating someone so powerful instead of properly banishing them? Draigo just reads like a snide bully and both characters seem incompetent.

Mortarion didn't just run away though. He couldn't return from the Warp for many years. Regardless of whether or not Draigo technically banished him, he did something with a similar effect. As has been speculated, it may have actually been a part of a ritual of some sort.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

365

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 14:56:04

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

Manchu wrote:Draigo MUST be a badass in order to drive home the point that Chaos is so powerful.

Actually Draigo makes Chaos look weak. He destroys the realms of the Chaos gods and they can't do anything to stop him - all they can do is rebuild once he has moved on. Reading his fluff, the overwhelming impression I get is that this guy has only one defining character trait - invincibility. The only thing he hasn't succeeded in doing is permanently killing a Chaos god - and given how unstoppable he's made out be, I think one could be forgiven for concluding that the only reason why he hasn't killed a god (yet) is because they are afraid of him and are actively avoiding him. Really, if Draigo got in a fight with Khorne, who would win? If not Draigo, then why hasn't Khorne killed him?

Also I don't really think "inability to single-handedly rid the Warp of Chaos" makes him a flawed or tragic character.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:00:07

Post by: bombboy1252

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

Reply by: infinite_array - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:09:55

Post by: infinite_array

bombboy1252 wrote:
You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

While some 14 year olds will know a good story when they read it (I'll offer myself as a once-example) the majority of young men just entering their teenage years will much prefer the 'Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS' to any sort of story with deep and though provoking symbolism.

Which is exactly what 40k offers.

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

41773

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:10:29

Post by: Varrick

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Seaward wrote:What's amusing about this whole discussion is that, honestly, guys, Games Workshop just ain't that deep.

We're talking about the company that's given us Sly Marbo, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, Canis Wolfborn, "Nevermore!", and countless other characters and references with the depth of your average spit puddle.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a Sisyphean allegory for the Imperium as a whole. It's probably a badly-written duck.

So, you're saying that codex writers and BL authors just throw sh*t together without putting any thought into it....they just want it to be "KYOOOOOL"

If that were the case, than their would only ever be 1 codex writer at a time, the codexs would be half the size they are now because their would barely be any fluff, and the codex would come out twice as fast because they have less to write...

Just because a company puts little "easter eggs" if you will, doesn't mean they just love to throw gak together...

No, I'm saying that codex writers write for fourteen year-olds.

You do know 14 year-olds know how to read a good story right? Just because they write books for teenagers doesn't mean that everything has to be "Boom boom exploshun boom killy kill kill BOOBS"

Their can actually be some good writing in it.....

But that requires more work than "kaboom BLAm ACK ACK ACK FWOOOSH".

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:15:37

Post by: Manchu

Ray Bradbury wrote a short story set on Venus where the plant life grew at an extremely accelerated pace. So if you stood still for too long, the plants would even envelop and suffocate you. This is the image I have of Draigo in the Warp. Which story is more interesting:

(a) Draigo just has a little machete and chops a few vines out of his way and then they grow right back as if he never chopped them in the first place.

(b) Draigo has the ability to mow down an entire jungle in one fell swoop but as soon as he does so the jungle immediately grows back, rendering his power no less awesome but ineffective even so.

In either story, the jungle grows back and Draigo's efforts are ultimately futile. But when you just chop at a few vines that regenerate, the sense of futility is greatly diminished. That would be an appropriate story about some nameless Guardsmen. A hero of such titanic stature, literally the very best that the Imperium can produce at that point in its history, needs NOT ONLY a proportional challenge BUT ALSO at least some footing to face that challenge.

When a Greater Daemon tears a Guardsman in half without a thought, we don't find out much about how powerful the Daemon is. It was only Joe Guardsman, after all. Show the same Daemon carving through a squad of Space Marines and you're beginning to tell me something -- and it's because I know Space Marines are badass. I know they're badasses because that's one of the "rules" of the setting. There are a bunch of examples, little anecdotes and quotations, in their Codex and elsewhere that communicate this. Same with Draigo: we get an faceful of text about his long career of asskickery. So when he goes crazy on Chaos inside of the Warp we have a good sense that if anybody can do something about these Ruinous Powers, it'll be this guy.

But of course he can't do anything against them. Not really. In a world where time itself shifts, I think you guys are placing too much emphasis on Chaos having to "recover" from Draigo's attention. The point is that he could defeat Khorne in arm-wrestling, solve a rubiks cube faster than Tzeentch, drink Slaanesh under the table, and burp louder than Nurgle -- but in actuality, Khorne would ultimately force Draigo's arm down, Tzeetch would reveal that his rubiks cube was solved before they even started the timer, Slaanesh would get back up for round 2 ... through one million, and Nurgle's belch would not have been less loud but rather simply transcended the normally audial spectrum.

It just looks like Draigo wins. He never actually does. And the reason it looks so convincing is because we read about being able to do all this ridiculous gak -- if he can't win, then who can? Well, no one. Maybe the emperor -- but he's a husk that's been on life support for 10,000 years. That's the point. This is the GrimDark.

And, yes, I used the jungle example because Draigo actually does it. This was to save me from people saying "you're analyzing gak writing too deeply."

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:24:02

Post by: Durza

If you think that Draigo could beat Khorne in arm wrestling, you're either seriously under estimating Khorne or seriously over estimating Draigo.

And since it's ok for Draigo to wander around the warp killing things that get replaced, I guess you won't mind if the next Chaos codex has a daemon so powerful he jumped out of the Warp and wanders realspace destroying entire Space Marine chapters. After all, they can just get new marines, and the bit that says so at the end would show how the daemon's quest is pointless.

Manchu wrote:Draigo is the epitome of endless confrontation.

Yes, between the people who think he should be culled and the people who think he should be left as an example of why fans don't write codex fluff.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:27:21

Post by: Manchu

Durza wrote:And since it's ok for Draigo to wander around the warp killing things that get replaced, I guess you won't mind if the next Chaos codex has a daemon so powerful he jumped out of the Warp and wanders realspace destroying entire Space Marine chapters. After all, they can just get new marines, and the bit that says so at the end would show how the daemon's quest is pointless.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Daemons reform from the very substance of the Warp.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:40:23

Post by: Durza

So? Daemons come back. The Imperium trains new marines.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:45:41

Post by: Manchu

If you defeat a daemon, it doesn't die. It does not end. It goes away for some period of time and then comes back. But it's the same daemon.

If you kill a Space Marine, that particular Marine is done. It will take decades to train a replacement and then further decades if not centuries to hone his abilities to the level of the Marine he replaced.

This is an obvious difference.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 15:51:09

Post by: Durza

And yet, if it was a single daemon doing this, the impact would be unnoticeable. Just more casualties in the Imperium. And then he could go to Ultramar and start humping Guilliman's stasis pod after stealing Clagar's power fists.

Reply by: Chaos Emperor - click to view full reply 

38721

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 16:16:52

Post by: Chaos Emperor

if anything, Draigos fluff shows just how powerful he is! in Hammer of deamons Alaric has trouble keeping loyal and almost turns, and that was in the eye of terror. draigo lives in the warp itself and is still loyal!!

Reply by: Randomonioum - click to view full reply 

30783

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 16:48:39

Post by: Randomonioum

On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 16:50:14

Post by: Manchu

It's not a bad point although it suffers from not taking the published fluff on it's face. More likely, the Chaos Gods are just torturing him.

Reply by: Randomonioum - click to view full reply 

30783

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 17:01:21

Post by: Randomonioum

That works too. I prefer the idea that he is just too small to care about, being how much effort they put into fething each other over. But until we get some clarification (IE. Never), I guess we'll never know. Anyone saying they are scared of him, come on guys, thats verging on strawman.

Reply by: Rockiroad278 - click to view full reply 

22973

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 17:44:23

Post by: Rockiroad278

I don't see what the big deal is about Draigo. He's stuck in the warp, kills stuff, and it comes back like it never happened. As for Mortarion, he didn't kill him, just scarred him, after he had just finished fighting one of the Imperium's best fighters. Boo hoo.

Now I'll tell you what a big deal is. Dreadknights. How can they turn a concept so awesome into something stupid by putting a baby carrier on the front? They really dropped the ball on that one.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 18:00:08

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

Yeah, I wanna know how they messed up the Dread Knight myself.

If it was just a enclosed cockpit like thing it would be bearable, but with the pilot just dangling out in the front, with his legs and arms exposed...just why?

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 18:01:21

Post by: Brother Coa

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

What? Was that English? I really can't tell.

How do you space someone exactly? And "from writing bible"? What does that even mean?

Like I said, it's what people here would say. 3 post below that explain what I had in mind.
And that was not English, that was Serbian.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 18:03:43

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

Brother Coa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:This again?

I will space iproxtaco from writing bible on "how I am wrong and he is right".

But seriously? Like this wasn't asked like 30 times since the codex was released.

What? Was that English? I really can't tell.

How do you space someone exactly? And "from writing bible"? What does that even mean?

Like I said, it's what people here would say. 3 post below that explain what I had in mind.
And that was not English, that was Serbian.

Ah, that makes sense then.
Also, I hadn't realised this thread already had 4 pages. Derp

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 18:21:52

Post by: Void__Dragon

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

Only it says that the Warp carried only the stench of charcoal etc etc etc. Thus strongly implying that it was the whole jungle.

And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 18:46:15

Post by: Seaward

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

41773

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 19:08:53

Post by: Varrick

Seaward wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Logistics is a dangerous game to play here; and not even a tactical geniu- Whats that bit of string over there...

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/20 20:33:53

Post by: Durza

Seaward wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet?

Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.

Published fluff also says that every one of the Black Crusades almost destroyed the Imperium, and this is clearly not the case. And considering how many times things get exaggerated (like the word incorruptible appearing in almost every entry, usually with 'even more' in front of it) in that codex, it could just be that they can't corrupt him. Or they haven't tried to kill him yet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

That's the part I find most outrageous, honestly. Homeboy solved Tzeentch's maze. Not only can he beat down primarchs, he's more cunning than Tzeentch.

Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Clearly, he cut holes in the labyrinth. And as for resupply, he *censored*

Reply by: Ironsight - click to view full reply 

43866

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 04:01:19

Post by: Ironsight

Void__Dragon wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:On the subject of why the gods haven't killed him yet, don't you think it could be that they literally haven't noticed him yet? I mean, think about it. They are literally gods. Their power, and thought processes go beyond what we could imagine. They haven't noticed him in the same way that you haven't noticed that there could be a spider in a certain part of your house, or there are useless files clogging up your hard disk. And at no point has Draigo burned down the gardens of nurgle, he set fire to a jungle, likely a small portion. In the same light, he has never touched the impossible city. He destroyed the fortress of M'Kachan, likely a personal demesne.

Only it says that the Warp carried only the stench of charcoal etc etc etc. Thus strongly implying that it was the whole jungle.

And there is but one Inevitable/Impossible City. Draigo destroyed it. To do this, he must of solved the Infinite Labyrinth.

I have only Tzeentch's Lexicanum entry and a hazy memory from part of Slaves to Darkness excerpt to go off of currently, is it possible that you're getting the Impossible Fortress and the Inevitable City mixed up. And wasn't it a feature of the Inevitable City that wherever in Tzeentch's realm you traveled, you'd inevitable find your way there? I don't have my usual sources to check right now, so feel free to disregard.

Seaward wrote:
Published fluff says that they cannot kill him.

Cannot. Think about that for a while.

All that means is that he can beat any daemon horde or champion they bother to send his way.

Seaward wrote:
Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

If you look at the timeline, Draigo's banishment to the warp only just happened on M41.999.
Some say he may have also obtained some otherworldy qualities as a temporary denizen of the Warp, eliminating the need to re-arm and repair as long as his brothers believe he will one day return.
Another idea is that he simply grabs ammo when he explodes out of the Warp from other nearby Grey Knights.

Reply by: The Epic Chaosdude!!! - click to view full reply 

38915

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 04:07:01

Post by: The Epic Chaosdude!!!

Why would we need primarchs when we got Draigo?

Reply by: BrainDeleted - click to view full reply 

49321

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 04:12:40

Post by: BrainDeleted

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Why would we need primarchs when we got Draigo?

Because Draigo's trapped in the warp and is essentially a Daemon the GK can summon for short periods of time? While the Primarches conquered the Galaxy...

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 11:51:11

Post by: Durza

Shh, you'll make the fanboys mad.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

365

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 18:31:28

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

Seaward wrote:Incidentally...how the hell does he resupply? You're saying he's been wearing the same suit of Terminator armor for centuries without maintenance?

Not only that, he has gone without food, water or (presumably) sleep for said amount of time as well.

Ironsight wrote:Another idea is that he simply grabs ammo when he explodes out of the Warp from other nearby Grey Knights.

... and so I, THE Kaldor Draigo, have once again saved the day! Oh crap, the warp rift! The buzzer means my time is up! Okay guys, hurry, daddy needs some ammo. I'm taking up a collection - everybody empty their storm bolters, stat!

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/21 22:26:20

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 03:11:00

Post by: bombboy1252

I think any and all Draigo threads should be purged from dakka, it only winds up going horribly....horribly wrong....

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

41773

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 03:36:19

Post by: Varrick

bombboy1252 wrote:I think any and all Draigo threads should be purged from dakka, it only winds up going horribly....horribly wrong....

Lets pour concrete over all of these and then proceed to bombard it from orbit.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 04:53:41

Post by: bombboy1252

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I think any and all Draigo threads should be purged from dakka, it only winds up going horribly....horribly wrong....

Lets pour concrete over all of these and then proceed to bombard it from orbit.

I'll call the Imperial navy, get some exterminatus up in the b**ch...

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

41773

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 04:59:01

Post by: Varrick

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I think any and all Draigo threads should be purged from dakka, it only winds up going horribly....horribly wrong....

Lets pour concrete over all of these and then proceed to bombard it from orbit.

I'll call the Imperial navy, get some exterminatus up in the b**ch...

I know a guy that delivers high quality mass quantity concrete anywhere in the segmentum he can be here 5 days before the fleet.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 05:00:52

Post by: bombboy1252

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Varrick wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I think any and all Draigo threads should be purged from dakka, it only winds up going horribly....horribly wrong....

Lets pour concrete over all of these and then proceed to bombard it from orbit.

I'll call the Imperial navy, get some exterminatus up in the b**ch...

I know a guy that delivers high quality mass quantity concrete anywhere in the segmentum he can be here 5 days before the fleet.

Seal of excellence...

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 08:16:14

Post by: Brother Coa

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

Yeah, I see Chaos Gods as weak Daemons ever since Draigo fluff came out.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 08:19:40

Post by: Omegus

Kanluwen wrote:
Like what? The Bloodthirsters--which Sanguinius was able to break over his knee? Which Inquisitor Rex was able to banish (after defeating in martial combat, mind you) the most powerful of himself?

Why do people lie when discussing fluff? Is winning an argument so important that you would make up a bunch of bs? Or is it that you simply heard someone else say this and are just parroting it? Or maybe it's that you just base everything on the summaries on Lexicanum rather than having read any of the material yourself?

Sanguinius was defeated by Ka'Bandha the first time they fought, and the second time around it took all his strength to beat it. Ka'Bandha also fought the Sanguinor (Sanguinius' reincarnation? some "good" daemon? whatever the hell he is) to a standstill, Sanguinor only defeating him in a "desperate gambit" that only worked because Ka'Bandha's wings were destroyed by Sanguinor's initial sneak attack.

As for An'ggrath, he was already wounded after a battle with the Grey Knights that were accompanying Rex. Rex was also wielding an ancient force weapon blessed by the Emperor himself. And he hardly bested the daemon in martial combat; he landed a few blows, each of which visibly drained and cut off An'ggrath from the Warp and the source of his powers. And Rex was still beaten and driven to his knees, but in typical bad guy stupidity/good guy plot armor, An'ggrath paused his assault prematurely to roar his triumph and Rex took advantage of the situation to stab him in the heart.

So the most potent Daemon Hunters (Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord and a whole bunch of Grey Knights) and one of the top three most martially capable Primarchs all defeated Bloodthirsters, but they did so barely, at great cost, in the material realm where the Bloodthirsters' power is fleeting.

Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

Manchu wrote:The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos. So the questions that Mat Ward is trying to ask you, the hook he's trying to get into your imagination is: if you knew you could never win, would you still fight? What motivates a man to do so?

That may have been the intent, but it came across in a hamfisted and heavy-handed way that reads like a 12-year-old's fantasy fan-spank. Which is nothing new with Ward. The text reads basically as such: "Draigo is the most awesome Grey Knight ever. He did this awesome thing when he was still a noob. Then he did this impossible awesome thing. Then two pages more of super awesome stuff. Oh, by the way, the stuff he destroys doesn't really stay destroyed, but he's all the more awesome for it because he just farms them over and over again for mad XP and phat lewts. Isn't he awesome? fapfapfapfapfap."


Apologists.

Reply by: SomeRandomEvilGuy - click to view full reply 

40749

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 09:46:29

Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy

Omegus wrote:Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

To be honest, this probably isn't even unique to Draigo. I know that they don't do it in the Warp, but don't Purifiers or Paladins have to defeat four of the most powerful Chaos daemons (one of each god) unarmed or something ludicrous? Or have I just made this up?

Either way, Grey Knights seem to have gone up a notch in terms of power. Daemons seemed to have the disadvantage against them now.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 10:31:19

Post by: Mr Morden

The only way I can handle it is that akin to the Warboss Tuska and his Boyz who are constantly reanimated to fight eternally on a Khornate "planet" in the Eye of Terror. The Gods of Chaos enjoy his futilie quest when they actually remember his existance and are happy to prelong it as he means eseentially nothing to them. That may not be the intent but thats how I can deal with it

Of course Draigo is actually less powerful than a mere skink, Oxyotl, Survivor of Phuax, the Returned (p71 Lizardman army book) who was sucked into the Realm of Chaos (AKA the Warp) when his Slann lord drew too deep on the winds of magic and sucked him and his followers in.

Oxyotl managed to get back out for good, something that is beyond Draigo

Yeah its WFB rather than 40K and it maybe the Gods of Chaos let him out.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 12:08:45

Post by: Omegus

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Omegus wrote:Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

To be honest, this probably isn't even unique to Draigo. I know that they don't do it in the Warp, but don't Purifiers or Paladins have to defeat four of the most powerful Chaos daemons (one of each god) unarmed or something ludicrous? Or have I just made this up?

Either way, Grey Knights seem to have gone up a notch in terms of power. Daemons seemed to have the disadvantage against them now.

"There is neither training regime nor set process by which a Grey Knight can join these ranks." They just have to be purer than totally pure, and more incorruptible than utterly incorruptible.

And yes, GK have gone from the tragic heroes resolutely fighting a losing battle against an implacable foe, to awesomesause Mary Sues who wtfpwn all opposition and whose only "flaw" is that there is always more opposition to wtfpwn. They went from just having their armor, their nemesis force weapon, and their unshakable faith in the Emperor... to baby-carriage battle robots and daemon swords.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 12:41:46

Post by: iproxtaco

Omegus wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Omegus wrote:Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

To be honest, this probably isn't even unique to Draigo. I know that they don't do it in the Warp, but don't Purifiers or Paladins have to defeat four of the most powerful Chaos daemons (one of each god) unarmed or something ludicrous? Or have I just made this up?

Either way, Grey Knights seem to have gone up a notch in terms of power. Daemons seemed to have the disadvantage against them now.

"There is neither training regime nor set process by which a Grey Knight can join these ranks." They just have to be purer than totally pure, and more incorruptible than utterly incorruptible.

And yes, GK have gone from the tragic heroes resolutely fighting a losing battle against an implacable foe, to awesomesause Mary Sues who wtfpwn all opposition and whose only "flaw" is that there is always more opposition to wtfpwn. They went from just having their armor, their nemesis force weapon, and their unshakable faith in the Emperor... to baby-carriage battle robots and daemon swords.

It's the Paladins that have to defeat one of the most powerful Daemon alone.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 14:42:56

Post by: bombboy1252

iproxtaco wrote:

Omegus wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Omegus wrote:Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

To be honest, this probably isn't even unique to Draigo. I know that they don't do it in the Warp, but don't Purifiers or Paladins have to defeat four of the most powerful Chaos daemons (one of each god) unarmed or something ludicrous? Or have I just made this up?

Either way, Grey Knights seem to have gone up a notch in terms of power. Daemons seemed to have the disadvantage against them now.

"There is neither training regime nor set process by which a Grey Knight can join these ranks." They just have to be purer than totally pure, and more incorruptible than utterly incorruptible.

And yes, GK have gone from the tragic heroes resolutely fighting a losing battle against an implacable foe, to awesomesause Mary Sues who wtfpwn all opposition and whose only "flaw" is that there is always more opposition to wtfpwn. They went from just having their armor, their nemesis force weapon, and their unshakable faith in the Emperor... to baby-carriage battle robots and daemon swords.

It's the Paladins that have to defeat one of the most powerful Daemon alone.

And Draigo is much more powerful than a "normal" paladin...

Makes sense to me...

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 14:48:48

Post by: Durza

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Omegus wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Omegus wrote:Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

To be honest, this probably isn't even unique to Draigo. I know that they don't do it in the Warp, but don't Purifiers or Paladins have to defeat four of the most powerful Chaos daemons (one of each god) unarmed or something ludicrous? Or have I just made this up?

Either way, Grey Knights seem to have gone up a notch in terms of power. Daemons seemed to have the disadvantage against them now.

"There is neither training regime nor set process by which a Grey Knight can join these ranks." They just have to be purer than totally pure, and more incorruptible than utterly incorruptible.

And yes, GK have gone from the tragic heroes resolutely fighting a losing battle against an implacable foe, to awesomesause Mary Sues who wtfpwn all opposition and whose only "flaw" is that there is always more opposition to wtfpwn. They went from just having their armor, their nemesis force weapon, and their unshakable faith in the Emperor... to baby-carriage battle robots and daemon swords.

It's the Paladins that have to defeat one of the most powerful Daemon alone.

And Draigo is much more powerful than a "normal" paladin...

Makes sense to me...

Those 'normal' paladins don't go into the Warp to fight daemons.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 15:27:31

Post by: Void__Dragon

bombboy1252 wrote:And Draigo is much more powerful than a "normal" paladin...

Makes sense to me...

Draigo is the only (The only) character in all of 40k to have defeated even your bog-standard Greater Daemon within the Warp, let alone a very powerful one like M'kaechan.

Beyond that, the Paladins that go to fight one of those super special awesome Greater Daemons go armed with the Daemon's true name. An incredible advantage against a Daemon. Also one that doesn't apply when fighting them in the Warp.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 16:00:38

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Like what? The Bloodthirsters--which Sanguinius was able to break over his knee? Which Inquisitor Rex was able to banish (after defeating in martial combat, mind you) the most powerful of himself?

Why do people lie when discussing fluff? Is winning an argument so important that you would make up a bunch of bs? Or is it that you simply heard someone else say this and are just parroting it? Or maybe it's that you just base everything on the summaries on Lexicanum rather than having read any of the material yourself?

Sanguinius was defeated by Ka'Bandha the first time they fought, and the second time around it took all his strength to beat it. Ka'Bandha also fought the Sanguinor (Sanguinius' reincarnation? some "good" daemon? whatever the hell he is) to a standstill, Sanguinor only defeating him in a "desperate gambit" that only worked because Ka'Bandha's wings were destroyed by Sanguinor's initial sneak attack.

As for An'ggrath, he was already wounded after a battle with the Grey Knights that were accompanying Rex. Rex was also wielding an ancient force weapon blessed by the Emperor himself. And he hardly bested the daemon in martial combat; he landed a few blows, each of which visibly drained and cut off An'ggrath from the Warp and the source of his powers. And Rex was still beaten and driven to his knees, but in typical bad guy stupidity/good guy plot armor, An'ggrath paused his assault prematurely to roar his triumph and Rex took advantage of the situation to stab him in the heart.

So the most potent Daemon Hunters (Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord and a whole bunch of Grey Knights) and one of the top three most martially capable Primarchs all defeated Bloodthirsters, but they did so barely, at great cost, in the material realm where the Bloodthirsters' power is fleeting.

Draigo effortlessly defeats Bloodthirsters bare-handed, while in the friggin' Warp, and then forges new swords out of their weapons with his mind.

Manchu wrote:The point of Draigo is not that he's invincible but that all his efforts (and by proxy, all of the Imperium's efforts) are useless against Chaos. So the questions that Mat Ward is trying to ask you, the hook he's trying to get into your imagination is: if you knew you could never win, would you still fight? What motivates a man to do so?

That may have been the intent, but it came across in a hamfisted and heavy-handed way that reads like a 12-year-old's fantasy fan-spank. Which is nothing new with Ward. The text reads basically as such: "Draigo is the most awesome Grey Knight ever. He did this awesome thing when he was still a noob. Then he did this impossible awesome thing. Then two pages more of super awesome stuff. Oh, by the way, the stuff he destroys doesn't really stay destroyed, but he's all the more awesome for it because he just farms them over and over again for mad XP and phat lewts. Isn't he awesome? fapfapfapfapfap."


Apologists.

Exactly, all of those were, y'know, fights? Some struggling, some conflict, some......writing. The Draigo stuff is just so poorly written, maybe if it wasn't it wouldn't be so eye-rollingly over the top. I'm sorry but for all intents and purposes Draigo rapes Mortarion. There's no triumphing over odds. No triumphing over the odds, uphill struggle, dues ex machina or character development. He's alone, Mortarion has a daemon prince retinue and Draigo just goes in there and rapes him.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Draigo @ 2011/10/22 16:55:26

Post by: Kanluwen

I find it amusing that he says "is winning so important that you lie?" when his sig is a list of people who he feels he's 'bested', and many of those 'bestings' were when he took something out of context.

Reply by: Guildsman - click to view full reply 

38451

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 03:48:42

Post by: Guildsman

For me, Draigo is the stupidly powerful jewel in the crown of ridiculousness that is the Grey Knights codex. Having read threads like this before I actually read the codex, I was hoping the reports of the fluff were exaggerated. Oh, how I wish they were. Knights killing Battle-Sisters to use their blood for rituals? Friggin ghost terminators? Draigo just takes the cake though. Demon primarchs might as well have been chaos gods before he came along. Now, they're just more demons to be chopped up. Draigo single-handedly cheapens every other 40k character's achievements by existing. Who else has done anything that compares?

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 03:51:37

Post by: Asherian Command

I like Draigo's Sword.
Thats about it.

He is a okay character. Not terribad like some character.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 04:11:50

Post by: iproxtaco

Dante, Hector Rex, Thawn, every Paladin ever, Guilliman, Sanguinus, Horus, the Emperor, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Marenus Calgar, Angron, Brother Captain Stern, Sergeant Rafen of the Blood Angels, Mephiston. That's off the top of my head, though these are just examples of single characters that have defeated a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. Running around in the Warp is something that can't be explained away.

Reply by: Radiation - click to view full reply 

44855

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 04:39:57

Post by: Radiation

Draigo is cool. Get over it. In ten years you will be like, "Remember Draigo? He was sick! All the nerds hated him with a rage cause he was overpowered. Yeah I remember Draigo. Dude was bad. He carved his initials into some Primarchs heart. He travelled into the future too and he was still the Grand Master. He doesn't quit." And people will wonder what you are talking about and you will smile.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 05:11:34

Post by: bombboy1252

Radiation wrote:Draigo is cool. Get over it. In ten years you will be like, "Remember Draigo? He was sick! All the nerds hated him with a rage cause he was overpowered. Yeah I remember Draigo. Dude was bad. He carved his initials into some Primarchs heart. He travelled into the future too and he was still the Grand Master. He doesn't quit." And people will wonder what you are talking about and you will smile.

I like Radiation, He knows things...

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 10:49:34

Post by: Brother Coa

YOu know what would be cool?
Creed infiltrating Draigo from the Warp into the middle of Failbadons army

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 11:10:18

Post by: Omegus

Kanluwen wrote:I find it amusing that he says "is winning so important that you lie?" when his sig is a list of people who he feels he's 'bested', and many of those 'bestings' were when he took something out of context.

Those are a list of people who would argue something until they were blue in the face, then I would provide quotations from the actual written material, and they would take their ball and go home. Ya know, like you did in the Dark Angels thread. It's okay, I know your butt's still sore about it, so I'll forgive you for doing the exact same thing this time.

Cheers.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 17:58:06

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

Reply by: Coolyo294 - click to view full reply 

32955

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 18:02:07

Post by: Coolyo294

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

When did Lysander go into the Warp?

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 18:11:47

Post by: Durza

Radiation wrote:Draigo is cool. Get over it. In ten years you will be like, "Remember Draigo? He was sick! All the nerds hated him with a rage cause he was overpowered. Yeah I remember Draigo. Dude was bad. He carved his initials into some Primarchs heart. He travelled into the future too and he was still the Grand Master. He doesn't quit." And people will wonder what you are talking about and you will smile.

In ten years, I will either be saying "Thank [insert deity] they retconned most of Draigo's fluff so that he actually seems reasonable." or "Why the hell haven't they fixed Draigo's fluff so he's actually reasonable?"

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 19:04:59

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Coolyo294 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

When did Lysander go into the Warp?

Disappeared in a Warp Storm, didn't he?

Anyhow, there's also the Space Wolves' 13th Company.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 19:30:28

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

So? Doesn't mean he lives there. Half the Dark Angels disappeared in a warp storm.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 22:02:09

Post by: bombboy1252

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I find it amusing that he says "is winning so important that you lie?" when his sig is a list of people who he feels he's 'bested', and many of those 'bestings' were when he took something out of context.

Those are a list of people who would argue something until they were blue in the face, then I would provide quotations from the actual written material, and they would take their ball and go home. Ya know, like you did in the Dark Angels thread. It's okay, I know your butt's still sore about it, so I'll forgive you for doing the exact same thing this time.

Cheers.

I find it hard to believe you could beat Kanluwen in a fluff argument.....no one can beat Kanluwen in a fluff argument, tis' impossible...

Reply by: TrollPie - click to view full reply 

44688

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 22:04:48

Post by: TrollPie

bombboy1252 wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I find it amusing that he says "is winning so important that you lie?" when his sig is a list of people who he feels he's 'bested', and many of those 'bestings' were when he took something out of context.

Those are a list of people who would argue something until they were blue in the face, then I would provide quotations from the actual written material, and they would take their ball and go home. Ya know, like you did in the Dark Angels thread. It's okay, I know your butt's still sore about it, so I'll forgive you for doing the exact same thing this time.

Cheers.

I find it hard to believe you could beat Kanluwen in a fluff argument.....no one can beat Kanluwen in a fluff argument, tis' impossible...

You can beat Kanluwen in a fluff arguement. It's making him admit it that's hard

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/23 22:13:06

Post by: Omegus

Yes, there's a lot of sound and fury, but at the end of the day, that's all it is.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

365

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 00:46:23

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

When did Lysander go into the Warp?

Disappeared in a Warp Storm, didn't he?

Anyhow, there's also the Space Wolves' 13th Company.

13th Company lives in the Eye of Terror which is not the Warp - it is a warpspace/realspace overlap. Not even Chaos Space Marines can live in the Warp. The only things in the whole universe that can live in Warp without a Gellar Field are chaos daemons, chaos gods and Kaldor Draigo.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 00:56:08

Post by: CpatTom

Draigo is a Greater Daemon of the Emperor.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:04:12

Post by: bombboy1252

CpatTom wrote:Draigo is a boss.

Their you go

Draigo is a grey knight, grey knights > daemons

and Draigo is an Uber grey knight with Uber daemon slaying powers, so, lets put this discussion to rest

Reply by: Joey - click to view full reply 

48860

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:06:57

Post by: Joey

I wouldn't mind if it was hinted at HOW he is so powerful.
Maybe some kind of divine light of the emperor or something.
But as it is he's "just" a genetically engineered super human.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:17:03

Post by: Void__Dragon

bombboy1252 wrote:Their you go

Draigo is a grey knight, grey knights > daemons

and Draigo is an Uber grey knight with Uber daemon slaying powers, so, lets put this discussion to rest

Most advantages Grey Knights have against Daemons stop applying when they're actually in the Warp.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:18:04

Post by: Kanluwen

That's an assumption.

Draigo's the first Grey Knight to actually be "in the Warp", so who knows.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:40:47

Post by: Void__Dragon

Kanluwen wrote:That's an assumption.

Draigo's the first Grey Knight to actually be "in the Warp", so who knows.

A lot of advantages, like the Grimoire of True Names Hector Rex had when he fought An'ggrath, are used to help weaken the Daemon's hold on the Materium. A lot of the Grey Knight's psychic abilities, like the blast used against Angron, do the same.

I'm not saying Draigo would lose every advantage, but he would certainly be less potent in the Warp.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:45:45

Post by: Kanluwen

I don't know about that.

He's still a massively powerful Psyker. All the Grey Knights are.

While he might not be able to banish a Daemon, he would still likely be able to rip something apart.

With his brain.

Reply by: AchillesFTW - click to view full reply 

47322

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 01:49:41

Post by: AchillesFTW

He's even that powerful of a psyker. He has a master level of two. Almost every space marine chapter has a few librarians capable of the same amount of power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
*not

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 03:55:31

Post by: bombboy1252

AchillesFTW wrote:He's even that powerful of a psyker. He has a master level of two. Almost every space marine chapter has a few librarians capable of the same amount of power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
*not

Don't bring the TT into a fluff discussion, they never match up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:That's an assumption.

Draigo's the first Grey Knight to actually be "in the Warp", so who knows.

+1 to this...

Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Reply by: Jackster - click to view full reply 

39755

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:05:51

Post by: Jackster

Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

To be honest, Chaos Gods might come to enjoy his prolong stay in the warp as time pass by
Khorne: Someone who's always up for a fight! Great!
Slaanesh: More pain and it hurts so good!
Nurgle: Everything grows back anyway! Watching Draigo rampaging through the warp is probably really amusing!
Tzeentch: Lots and lots of changes everywhere! Maybe he let Draigo in because he wants to redecorate the inevitable city?

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:24:30

Post by: bombboy1252

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:28:09

Post by: Void__Dragon

bombboy1252 wrote:Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

Er.

There is kind of a big difference.

Reply by: Jackster - click to view full reply 

39755

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:29:27

Post by: Jackster

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

lol, gods act... god like? That is totally stupid!

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:30:56

Post by: bombboy1252

Jackster wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

lol, gods act... god like? That is totally stupid!

How is that stupid...or do gods act "human" like in you're religion oh and

U mad bro?

Reply by: Jackster - click to view full reply 

39755

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:37:22

Post by: Jackster

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

lol, gods act... god like? That is totally stupid!

How is that stupid...or do gods act "human" like in you're religion oh and

U mad bro?

No, you just suffer from a severe case of Sarcasm blindness.
BTW, it's "your". Unless I became a religion without knowing.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 04:41:53

Post by: bombboy1252

Jackster wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

lol, gods act... god like? That is totally stupid!

How is that stupid...or do gods act "human" like in you're religion oh and

U mad bro?

No, you just suffer from a severe case of Sarcasm blindness.
BTW, it's "your".

Sorry if I can't sense sarcasm over the internet...it's kinda hard...like you don't know if I'm angry, laughing, or being a sarcastic D**k head right now...

and I was never good at "you're" and "your"....wish I paid attention that one day in english class...

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 05:02:35

Post by: Seaward

bombboy1252 wrote:
Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Not in physical form, no, as it's impossible to survive.

Just like the maze of Tzeentch leading to the Inevitable City is impossible to solve.

Draigo can do a lot of impossible things. It's the hallmark of any well-written character.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 05:30:09

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

bombboy1252 wrote:

AchillesFTW wrote:He's even that powerful of a psyker. He has a master level of two. Almost every space marine chapter has a few librarians capable of the same amount of power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
*not

Don't bring the TT into a fluff discussion, they never match up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:That's an assumption.

Draigo's the first Grey Knight to actually be "in the Warp", so who knows.

+1 to this...

Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Yes. Millions. Gellar fields breech and fail all the time. Over the last 30,000+ years all have died....except Draigo. Just looking into the warp can drive you insane. Specially bred mutants names navigators have a special eye just for this purpose. Just looking into that eye can kill you. That is how dangerous the imaterium is....except Draigo. Because......he's a tragic figure or something....

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 05:58:36

Post by: Kanluwen

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes. Millions. Gellar fields breech and fail all the time. Over the last 30,000+ years all have died....except Draigo. Just looking into the warp can drive you insane. Specially bred mutants names navigators have a special eye just for this purpose. Just looking into that eye can kill you. That is how dangerous the imaterium is....except Draigo. Because......he's a tragic figure or something....

Actually, that is untrue.

Not all have died, and Navigators aren't the only ones who can "look into the Warp". They're the only ones who can safely look at it for extended periods of time and guide ships through it.

Truth be told it's almost like they navigate or something...

Simply put, by this point in time I'm fairly convinced that there is no 'physical' Draigo. Every time he shows up, he shows up exactly how Daemons do at Warp Breaches: he just shows up, no possession necessary. All we are seeing whenever he shows up to fight is a kind of Draigodaemon, his soul manifesting itself through sheer force of will upon the real world.

Kinda like a Daemon does, truth be told.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 07:04:29

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The only things in the whole universe that can live in Warp without a Gellar Field are chaos daemons, chaos gods and Kaldor Draigo.

And Enslavers. And the Eldar Gods. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That's an assumption.

Draigo's the first Grey Knight to actually be "in the Warp", so who knows.

A lot of advantages, like the Grimoire of True Names Hector Rex had when he fought An'ggrath, are used to help weaken the Daemon's hold on the Materium. A lot of the Grey Knight's psychic abilities, like the blast used against Angron, do the same.

I'm not saying Draigo would lose every advantage, but he would certainly be less potent in the Warp.

Considering how the true name of a daemon is something the Chaos Gods use to control their servants in, you know, the Warp, I don't see why they wouldn't work there.


Also, Gellar Fields work by projecting a field that keeps daemons out of the ship, yes? Huh, what do you know, sounds an awful lot like the wards in Aegis armour to me. Is it that far-fetched that the wards of the Supreme Grand Master's suit of relic terminator armour would be able to defend him?

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 07:17:45

Post by: Omegus

Yes, it is that far-fetched. He's in the friggin' warp. His fluff is terribly written and he's a Mary Sue. That's what Matthew Ward does. It's okay, you'll get through this. Denial is always the first step.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 07:33:13

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Omegus wrote:Yes, it is that far-fetched. He's in the friggin' warp. His fluff is terribly written and he's a Mary Sue. That's what Matthew Ward does. It's okay, you'll get through this. Denial is always the first step.

Actually, my first step was raging at how bad his fluff was and hating Mat Ward. Then I got over it and started thinking for myself.

Seriously though, Grey Knights have always been anathema to daemons to the point that daemons, the incarnations of everything that is fethed up, recoil from them. It would seem logical that the most powerful of them all could fight the daemons even better, yes? Just being in the warp isn't dangerous, it's the fact that daemons jump you the moment they can that is.

Let's use an example: If there's a guy that you and your neighbours really hate that's walking around in your neighbourhood, you'd normally just have everyone jump him and smash his sorry face to pieces. Now, imagine the same situation where the guy has the power to burn your mind simply by existing.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 08:54:30

Post by: Brother Coa

He does look nice killing Daemons in the Warp.

Reply by: Ashiraya - click to view full reply 

50541

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 09:13:17

Post by: Ashiraya

I do not see why there is so much arguing about this. Sure, Mat Ward made a mistake, both lorewise and gamewise (he is BOTH harder than lysander, and really strong too???), especially in the lore. He can't have defeated a primarch. sure, he might be the strongest grey knight (so far) but he is still only a Space Marine. Do NOT make stupid
stories just because you think GK's need a equivalent of the Nightbringer.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

31733

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 09:18:00

Post by: Brother Coa

BrotherHaraldus wrote:He can't have defeated a primarch.

Dude, he carved his former master name in Primarch's Heart.
I think this count as "defeating" the Primarch.

Reply by: Greyish - click to view full reply 

44735

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 09:55:53

Post by: Greyish

Brother Coa wrote:He does look nice killing Daemons in the Warp.

That's immense. Kudos.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 10:54:19

Post by: Durza

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Not in physical form, no, as it's impossible to survive.

Just like the maze of Tzeentch leading to the Inevitable City is impossible to solve.

Draigo can do a lot of impossible things. It's the hallmark of any well-written character.

No, the hallmark of a well-written character is development. Impossible achievements are the hallmark of a ridiculous character.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 11:40:27

Post by: Omegus

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just being in the warp isn't dangerous.

Yeah... we're done here.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 11:46:24

Post by: Seaward

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Not in physical form, no, as it's impossible to survive.

Just like the maze of Tzeentch leading to the Inevitable City is impossible to solve.

Draigo can do a lot of impossible things. It's the hallmark of any well-written character.

No, the hallmark of a well-written character is development. Impossible achievements are the hallmark of a ridiculous character.

It's possible I was being intensely sarcastic.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 12:05:48

Post by: Durza

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Not in physical form, no, as it's impossible to survive.

Just like the maze of Tzeentch leading to the Inevitable City is impossible to solve.

Draigo can do a lot of impossible things. It's the hallmark of any well-written character.

No, the hallmark of a well-written character is development. Impossible achievements are the hallmark of a ridiculous character.

It's possible I was being intensely sarcastic.

If you were, I'm sorry. But there are some people in this thread that said that sincerely before. And claimed that Ward writes good fluff.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 12:20:24

Post by: bombboy1252

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
Has any psyker ever been in the warp before? I don't think so, but I'm not sure...

Not in physical form, no, as it's impossible to survive.

Just like the maze of Tzeentch leading to the Inevitable City is impossible to solve.

Draigo can do a lot of impossible things. It's the hallmark of any well-written character.

No, the hallmark of a well-written character is development. Impossible achievements are the hallmark of a ridiculous character.

It's possible I was being intensely sarcastic.

If you were, I'm sorry. But there are some people in this thread that said that sincerely before. And claimed that Ward writes good fluff.

Really, I heard some people think Ward writes bad fluff...which is of course impossible...

And doesn't Magnus look into the warp, along with the Emperor (pre-heresy)

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 12:22:05

Post by: Durza

Looking into the Warp is not the same as being in it. You can look into a nuclear reactor from the other side of the protective barrier, but you wouldn't really want to be inside, would you?

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 12:22:28

Post by: bombboy1252

Omegus wrote:Yes, it is that far-fetched. He's in the friggin' warp. His fluff is terribly written and he's a Mary Sue. That's what Matthew Ward does. It's okay, you'll get through this. Denial is always the first step.

I'm tired of arguing over this, you have your opinion on his fluff, and other people have theirs, theirs no "denial" everyone has their own opinion on it and I think it's best we leave it at that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Looking into the Warp is not the same as being in it. You can look into a nuclear reactor from the other side of the protective barrier, but you wouldn't really want to be inside, would you?

That makes sense I suppose, but as was stated earlier, couldn't the runes and such on his armor help protect him while walking through the Warp? Wouldn't his GK training help a bit? Wouldn't him being the "Supreme Grand Master" of these daemon killing knights help a bit?

It doesn't seem too far fetched, or "badly written" too me...as I said though, to each their own, we all have our opinions on if Draigo is fine, or if Draigo is terrible.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 13:09:55

Post by: Omegus

Just because everyone's entitled to their opinion, doesn't make it correct or even remotely based in reality.

Reply by: Thatguy91 - click to view full reply 

50557

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 13:14:51

Post by: Thatguy91

I have to agree, he really is over the top. Slaying large amounts of greater deamons, yeah sure why not. Being flung into the warp for maybe a day or two and surviving with some serious woulds to show for it, sure. But he really was too much.

Reply by: Brother Coa - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 13:24:28

Post by: Brother Coa

Durza wrote: And claimed that Ward writes good fluff.

To be honest not all of his fluff is bad. There are some good stories in there, but there are some who are OFF the scale so high that you need telescope to see the beginning.
HE does write good rules, no doubt about that ( exept few minor rules like flying Dreds and anti-plasma Grey Knight armor ).

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 13:29:17

Post by: CpatTom

Kanluwen wrote:
Kinda like a Daemon does, truth be told.

A Greater Daemon of the Emperor?
If he is a Daemon, then we just get an idea what they do during there down time, and for Draigomon its stomping around the warp.

Anything like that Sanguinor fellow, or am I way off base here?

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 14:44:59

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Omegus wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just being in the warp isn't dangerous.

Yeah... we're done here.

No, really, it isn't. It's just that there's a pretty huge risk that you'll run into something unpleasant. Then there's Warp Storms, which have been proven to be survivable. BTW, if you're going to quote me I'd appreciate if you didn't lift the part you're quoting out of context.

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 16:39:00

Post by: Varrick

Draigo is a grey knight. He is the leader of this daemon specialized astartes fighting force. He is not god, he is not instantly capable of knocking down entire daemon cities single handed without cracking his Armour, a rune on his Armour, or even his weapon. Just because he is the leader of the super human(still killable) daemon fighters dosen't mean he has the ability to walk through the warp chucking space molotovs. Remember the warp is super corruptive; now i do not know how the grey knights avoid falling to chaos but the difference between a grey knight falling to chaos and a grey knight drowning in the very essence of chaos are different things.

Are you to tell me your tragic character can wade into a sea of daemons inhabiting a chaos gods domain; and then proceed to smash them to pieces without getting flanked, back stabbed, or overrun.

No matter how good you want him to be his victories are impossible even for him. So he beat a daemon primarch that was already wounded? he also kicked its bodyguards apart. And the story came across as him being the most baddest of the bad asses. Why? I will explain later. So he walks around in the warp practicing gardening with Nurgle and interior redecorating with Tzeentchs IMPOSSIBLE fortress. So why should the realms of the gods be so impossible to survive? Well consider his wards. Made by humans. His Armour should have failed because no man made material can stand in the warp. His wards cannot protect him for ever and neither could a force field. Even the most powerful of his wardings should have FAILED to block out the corruption coming at it from the chaos gods domain. Forget just being in the warp remember he is in the direct domain of the chaos gods. So why is he able to do this and survive? explained below.

Spoiler:

WARD IS A BAD WRITER!

Don't make me start carding people.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 16:48:27

Post by: iproxtaco

NO WAY?! Ward is a bad writer? It's as if no one has ever said that.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 16:57:23

Post by: Omegus

Truth is truth.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 17:17:39

Post by: Durza

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Omegus wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just being in the warp isn't dangerous.

Yeah... we're done here.

No, really, it isn't. It's just that there's a pretty huge risk that you'll run into something unpleasant. Then there's Warp Storms, which have been proven to be survivable. BTW, if you're going to quote me I'd appreciate if you didn't lift the part you're quoting out of context.

So danger isn't dangerous then?

Reply by: blood reaper - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 17:18:07

Post by: blood reaper

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

When did Lysander go into the Warp?

Disappeared in a Warp Storm, didn't he?

Anyhow, there's also the Space Wolves' 13th Company.

13th Company lives in the Eye of Terror which is not the Warp - it is a warpspace/realspace overlap. Not even Chaos Space Marines can live in the Warp. The only things in the whole universe that can live in Warp without a Gellar Field are chaos daemons, chaos gods and Kaldor Draigo.

Fanboy is obvious, very obvious.

Your entire post is screaming 'I THINKZ H3 IS DA BESTESTST INZ DA WORLDZ', seriously the entire character of Draigo is laughable. He's become what he hates, a Daemon. If a being resides in the warp, cannot leave without psychic energy or a warp storm he's a Daemon. He may destroy these godly structures and beings but they will never stand die for ever, he's stuck killing Daemons over and over again for eternity but it will do nothing.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 17:18:42

Post by: daveNYC

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Omegus wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just being in the warp isn't dangerous.

Yeah... we're done here.

No, really, it isn't. It's just that there's a pretty huge risk that you'll run into something unpleasant. Then there's Warp Storms, which have been proven to be survivable. BTW, if you're going to quote me I'd appreciate if you didn't lift the part you're quoting out of context.

No, it is. Even if you ignore the wildlife, the warp is insanely dangerous. It is a universe where the laws of physics don't apply, the same physics which allow Draigo's biological processes to function and which keeps the atoms of his armor from flying apart. Just look at what happens to space hulks due to their time in the warp.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 18:06:31

Post by: junk

Unless someone, somewhere writes a 'Science of the Warp' book, I'm willing to accept Draigo Mad-Maxing it around hell, just getting into fist fights with gods and making sandwiches with his mind.

You've got a dude that's risen to the highest rank in the toughest sect of super-psychic-badasses that were hand crafted by the king-badass because he knew what was coming down the pike, in a universe where being an epic badass is just enough to squeak by.

I mean damn, it's not like you read Silver Surfer comics and say "this character is totally unrealistic".

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 18:08:58

Post by: Durza

That's because before the Silver Surfer came along, no one said 'If anyone tries to surf on a silver board without mystical protection, their soul will be devoured by ravenous daemons.'

And the guy that occupied that rank before Draigo got murdered in front of him. So it's not really a justification for his fluff.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 19:03:08

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes. Millions. Gellar fields breech and fail all the time. Over the last 30,000+ years all have died....except Draigo. Just looking into the warp can drive you insane. Specially bred mutants names navigators have a special eye just for this purpose. Just looking into that eye can kill you. That is how dangerous the imaterium is....except Draigo. Because......he's a tragic figure or something....

Actually, that is untrue.

Not all have died, and Navigators aren't the only ones who can "look into the Warp". They're the only ones who can safely look at it for extended periods of time and guide ships through it.

Truth be told it's almost like they navigate or something...

Simply put, by this point in time I'm fairly convinced that there is no 'physical' Draigo. Every time he shows up, he shows up exactly how Daemons do at Warp Breaches: he just shows up, no possession necessary. All we are seeing whenever he shows up to fight is a kind of Draigodaemon, his soul manifesting itself through sheer force of will upon the real world.

Kinda like a Daemon does, truth be told.

Actually that is true.

Some folks may have been in the warp for a few minutes aboard a ship and survived but no one has actually lived there. You're being disingenous.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

365

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 19:12:39

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

Yeah, it's totally reasonable that Draigo is as powerful as a chaos god. Glad we straightened that out.

blood reaper wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Arrrgh, these endless Draigo threads. Although, actually this is a pretty good one. I'm sorry ,but Draigo is not a tragic figure. In a way his story is a retcon just to show how super awesome he is. Previously, no one could actually go into the warp without horrible things happening to them. Just looking into the warp causes terrible things to happen to Navigators, a people breed just for that purpose. Yet, there goes Draigo actually living in the warp. He sleeps there, somehow eats and drinks there. Probably has afternoon tea too. The whole point is to show that he can beat the gods on their own turf.

The United Fanclubs of Darnath Lysander would like a word with you.

When did Lysander go into the Warp?

Disappeared in a Warp Storm, didn't he?

Anyhow, there's also the Space Wolves' 13th Company.

13th Company lives in the Eye of Terror which is not the Warp - it is a warpspace/realspace overlap. Not even Chaos Space Marines can live in the Warp. The only things in the whole universe that can live in Warp without a Gellar Field are chaos daemons, chaos gods and Kaldor Draigo.

Fanboy is obvious, very obvious.

Fanboy? Me? I think you misunderstand. My position is that, yes, Draigo does things that no other being in the setting (with the exception of gods) past or present can/could do. He takes on the most powerful beings in the setting on their own turf and wins without breaking a sweat. There is literally nothing in the entire universe that can stand up to Draigo's might. The only thing he has yet to do is kill a Chaos god and that is only because he hasn't fought one yet. As such Draigo is the textbook definition of a Godmode Sue.

Therefore, Kaldor Draigo is a horrible horrible horrible character, quite possibly the worst thing ever crafted or excreted by man or beast since the evolution of the tetrapod, and as such Matt Ward should feel very very very bad about himself for his epic failure as a human being.

Reply by: blood reaper - click to view full reply 

22150

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 19:20:19

Post by: blood reaper

That we agree, the worst character part from the Space Pope in the 41st millennium.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 19:34:29

Post by: iproxtaco

I don't think you should have gone to all that effort to explain. I would have dismissed any concerns after being called a fanboy. A fan of what, exactly?

Reply by: blood reaper - click to view full reply 

22150

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 19:38:04

Post by: blood reaper

iproxtaco wrote:I don't think you should have gone to all that effort to explain. I would have dismissed any concerns after being called a fanboy. A fan of what, exactly?

Seemed like Dragio, my mistake.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 20:48:06

Post by: Seaward

blood reaper wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I don't think you should have gone to all that effort to explain. I would have dismissed any concerns after being called a fanboy. A fan of what, exactly?

Seemed like Dragio, my mistake.

Which is like being called a fanboy of Jar-Jar Binks or child molesters; I'd go to great lengths to explain why I wasn't, too.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:02:15

Post by: bombboy1252

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yes, he is a boring invincible god like Mary Sue, get over it already.

Wanna know who else is a boring, invincible, god like Mary Sue...

The 4 chaos gods, I mean they never die, their god like, and I can't for the life of me find a flaw in any of them due to their godly nature...

40k is filled with...as you say "Mary Sues" so "get over it already"

Yeah, it's totally reasonable that Draigo is as powerful as a chaos god. Glad we straightened that out.

Kudos for you for missing my point entirely....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:Truth is truth.

Opinion is opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:Just because everyone's entitled to their opinion, doesn't make it correct or even remotely based in reality.

An opinion can never be *correct* and I don't understand what you mean by based in reality? Are you saying if you like Draigo that is an unrealistic opinion?

Reply by: Radiation - click to view full reply 

44855

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:07:26

Post by: Radiation

Your strong emotions, for and against, only make Draigo stronger. That is the way of the warp. Reason doesn't matter. All Draigo needs is you psychic energy directed towards him. Rage on. Increase his might. Draigo protects you in the name of the Emperor.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:12:41

Post by: bombboy1252

Radiation wrote:Your strong emotions, for and against, only make Draigo stronger. That is the way of the warp. Reason doesn't matter. All Draigo needs is you psychic energy directed towards him. Rage on. Increase his might. Draigo protects you in the name of the Emperor.

Ya, I really like Radiation

Your funny...

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:14:35

Post by: iproxtaco

You can hark on about how opinions can never be wrong all you want, it wont make people disagree any less.

Fun fact though - opinions can be wrong if they're based off incorrect information.

Reply by: Radiation - click to view full reply 

44855

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:21:14

Post by: Radiation

bombboy1252 wrote:

Radiation wrote:Your strong emotions, for and against, only make Draigo stronger. That is the way of the warp. Reason doesn't matter. All Draigo needs is you psychic energy directed towards him. Rage on. Increase his might. Draigo protects you in the name of the Emperor.

Ya, I really like Radiation

Your funny...

Thank you. Stay strong in your beliefs about Draigo, whatever they may be.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:51:21

Post by: bombboy1252

iproxtaco wrote:You can hark on about how opinions can never be wrong all you want, it wont make people disagree any less.

Fun fact though - opinions can be wrong if they're based off incorrect information.

I didn't think I was "harking" I was just saying, everyone entitled to their opinion...no need to get all defensive...

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 21:53:59

Post by: iproxtaco

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You can hark on about how opinions can never be wrong all you want, it wont make people disagree any less.

Fun fact though - opinions can be wrong if they're based off incorrect information.

I didn't think I was "harking" I was just saying, everyone entitled to their opinion...no need to get all defensive...

Cool story bro, if you say so (that's sarcasm, I wasn't being defensive). And yes, you were harking on about how it's your opinion, which doesn't mean people shouldn't point out how they think you're wrong.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 22:17:55

Post by: junk

Harking? Like, listening? I don't understand. Do you mean harping?

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/25 22:25:58

Post by: Durza

Hark the herald angels siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing...

I think it's a safe assumption he meant harping.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 22:45:10

Post by: bombboy1252

junk wrote:Harking? Like, listening? I don't understand. Do you mean harping?

I had to look on urbandictionary, harking is now considered like, badgering and saying things angrily...

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 22:51:02

Post by: iproxtaco

Durza wrote:Hark the herald angels siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing...

I think it's a safe assumption he meant harping.

No I meant harking. It's probably just a term used around here, but it means to repeat something a lot. It means the same thing as harping, really. We scots are a fickle bunch, dinnie lisin tae whit a soatsmin taels ya, hell hae is and' in yer pockit.

Reply by: Radiation - click to view full reply 

44855

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:10:05

Post by: Radiation

Back on topic please. This has nothing to do with Draigo and so does not help him in his WarpQuest.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:11:35

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

He doesn't need any help.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:13:16

Post by: junk

Re: harking - Cool. First useful thing I've learned from warhammer... second actually, i've also learned that statistics have no bearing on reality and probability is an illusion.

Re: Draigo vs. the Warp - In order to accept what Ward has written, what explanation can we invent that will allow Draigo to be acceptable? E.g. There seems to be less resistance to the idea that the entire planet of Titan could be hidden in the warp for an eon, maybe the GK developed their aegis during this time to withstand the warp?

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:19:26

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

Titan's got a gellar field iirc.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:22:53

Post by: junk

Well, how do Orks survive warp travel without a gellar field? And what is a gellar field made of?
Can a gellar field be generated psychically?

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

28848

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:28:06

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

No. Gellar fields are made of....gellars. That are made in a..... gellar field generator. Pretty sure Orks have Gellar fields too. They have a good understanding of the warp. They have some of the best teleportation tech in the galaxy. But they probably call theirs...Fields of orkyness or something.

Reply by: FTHDace - click to view full reply 

38311

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:36:01

Post by: FTHDace

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I do not see why there is so much arguing about this. Sure, Mat Ward made a mistake, both lorewise and gamewise (he is BOTH harder than lysander, and really strong too???), especially in the lore. He can't have defeated a primarch. sure, he might be the strongest grey knight (so far) but he is still only a Space Marine. Do NOT make stupid
stories just because you think GK's need a equivalent of the Nightbringer.

Horus lost to Constantin Valdor (Custodes) in a sparring match. I like to think if he could do that then Draigo (just as strong as Constantin but is strong psyker/daemon hunter) could kill a primarch/daemon prince.

I do believe that he is a sort of Draigodaemon now as was stated earlier and no longer has a true body in the materium and is sort of like the Sanguinor, and this would result in him not being able to perish in the warp.

The creatures in the warp only exist because of the Ancient Ones children and their link to the Immaterium. When the belief in something becomes strong enough it wills it's self to be in the Immaterium.

Draigo is possibly so incorruptible that he exists because of sheer will power in that he believes he is immune to Chaos/the Warp? (This last phrase isnt something I believe just contemplating).

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:42:54

Post by: junk

Okay, so gellar fields are made in a gellar field generator and they're made out of gellars, got it, so there's a solid foundation in science there. I guess we can just rest on that explanation.

Or:

The warp is a dimension of pure psychic energy. Gellar fields somehow buffer material from the immaterium, so some component of the gellar field must be operating on the same level as the psychic energy of the warp.

If we're willing to accept all the other pseudo-science of the 40k universe, it's not really that much of a stretch to imagine that a powerful psyker (one trained by a system designed specifically by the emperor in order to combat denizens of the warp) could buffer himself with a similar effect generated psychically.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/25 23:47:29

Post by: CpatTom

DRAIGOMON! SANGUINORMON! GO! THE EMPEROR OF MAN CHOOSES YOU!

More and more Daemons of the God Emperor, the Chaos God who seeks the destruction of the other Chaos Gods (AND THE PLOT THICKENS (this time with lawsuits over the Emperor's likeness to a character taken from the setting by his creator).

Reply by: Varrick - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 00:01:23

Post by: Varrick

FTHDace wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I do not see why there is so much arguing about this. Sure, Mat Ward made a mistake, both lorewise and gamewise (he is BOTH harder than lysander, and really strong too???), especially in the lore. He can't have defeated a primarch. sure, he might be the strongest grey knight (so far) but he is still only a Space Marine. Do NOT make stupid
stories just because you think GK's need a equivalent of the Nightbringer.

Horus lost to Constantin Valdor (Custodes) in a sparring match. I like to think if he could do that then Draigo (just as strong as Constantin but is strong psyker/daemon hunter) could kill a primarch/daemon prince.

I do believe that he is a sort of Draigodaemon now as was stated earlier and no longer has a true body in the materium and is sort of like the Sanguinor, and this would result in him not being able to perish in the warp.

The creatures in the warp only exist because of the Ancient Ones children and their link to the Immaterium. When the belief in something becomes strong enough it wills it's self to be in the Immaterium.

Draigo is possibly so incorruptible that he exists because of sheer will power in that he believes he is immune to Chaos/the Warp? (This last phrase isnt something I believe just contemplating).

Might be a Mork field... Or is it Gork?

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 00:01:58

Post by: Seaward

Well, it's not 100% that the Sanguinor is actually a daemon, or even real; he could be a psychic manifestation of the Blood Angels, he could be one of Sanguinius' honor guard that's survived and is now just James Bonding around the galaxy, helping out his bros. Who knows. Hell, he could be a daemon of Tzeentch playing the long game and attempting to lead the Blood Angels into a fall - it's happened before.

There's ambiguity to the Sanguinor. There's really not any to Draigo, unless you read heavily, heavily into it, and don't take Ward at his word.

Reply by: Joey - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 00:04:03

Post by: Joey

edit remove this post.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 00:15:03

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

junk wrote:Okay, so gellar fields are made in a gellar field generator and they're made out of gellars, got it, so there's a solid foundation in science there. I guess we can just rest on that explanation.

Or:

The warp is a dimension of pure psychic energy. Gellar fields somehow buffer material from the immaterium, so some component of the gellar field must be operating on the same level as the psychic energy of the warp.

If we're willing to accept all the other pseudo-science of the 40k universe, it's not really that much of a stretch to imagine that a powerful psyker (one trained by a system designed specifically by the emperor in order to combat denizens of the warp) could buffer himself with a similar effect generated psychically.

Sure, for 2 minutes.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 00:49:22

Post by: bombboy1252

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

junk wrote:Okay, so gellar fields are made in a gellar field generator and they're made out of gellars, got it, so there's a solid foundation in science there. I guess we can just rest on that explanation.

Or:

The warp is a dimension of pure psychic energy. Gellar fields somehow buffer material from the immaterium, so some component of the gellar field must be operating on the same level as the psychic energy of the warp.

If we're willing to accept all the other pseudo-science of the 40k universe, it's not really that much of a stretch to imagine that a powerful psyker (one trained by a system designed specifically by the emperor in order to combat denizens of the warp) could buffer himself with a similar effect generated psychically.

Sure, for as long as he wants because he's Draigo.

That's more accurate...

How would you even come to the conclusion that he could only do it for about 2 minuets? He is a powerful Grey Knight, and a powerful psyker...for all we know he could just have his "Draigo Gellar Field" up constantly.

Reply by: Radiation - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 01:05:10

Post by: Radiation

Draigo walks the righteous path through the Warp. Wasn't this what the Emperor was preparing humanity for? The Imperium of Man is supposed to be at the crossroads to something like this. The Corpse God is not going to reincarnate and coddle the weak. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. Men are supposed to master the Warp and no longer need rely on him. They will be strong enough to protect themselves against the predations of the false gods. Aren't these the original teachings? Man is on the threshold of a psychic transformation. Sounds like Draigo made the jump.

Draigo cares nothing about your weak and pathetic attempts at disbelief. Your thoughts only serve to expand his mythos, even the more heretical systems of faith represented here.

Regardless you all project your minds far into the future and there is much accomplishment in that. But you do so as followers of Ward despite your hatred for him. Wardian Mysticism is the doctrine that you debate when you elaborate on these future visions. Your cries of proper sciece or dogmatic cannon fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Beware the propaganda and the false profits. The alien, the mutant, the heretic are ever present.

Reply by: FTHDace - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 01:31:08

Post by: FTHDace

Radiation wrote:Draigo walks the righteous path through the Warp. Wasn't this what the Emperor was preparing humanity for? The Imperium of Man is supposed to be at the crossroads to something like this. The Corpse God is not going to reincarnate and coddle the weak. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. Men are supposed to master the Warp and no longer need rely on him. They will be strong enough to protect themselves against the predations of the false gods. Aren't these the original teachings? Man is on the threshold of a psychic transformation. Sounds like Draigo made the jump.

Draigo cares nothing about your weak and pathetic attempts at disbelief. Your thoughts only serve to expand his mythos, even the more heretical systems of faith represented here.

Regardless you all project your minds far into the future and there is much accomplishment in that. But you do so as followers of Ward despite your hatred for him. Wardian Mysticism is the doctrine that you debate when you elaborate on these future visions. Your cries of proper sciece or dogmatic cannon fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Beware the propaganda and the false profits. The alien, the mutant, the heretic are ever present.

This wins!

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 01:47:00

Post by: junk

Radiation wrote:Draigo walks the righteous path through the Warp. Wasn't this what the Emperor was preparing humanity for? The Imperium of Man is supposed to be at the crossroads to something like this. The Corpse God is not going to reincarnate and coddle the weak. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. Men are supposed to master the Warp and no longer need rely on him. They will be strong enough to protect themselves against the predations of the false gods. Aren't these the original teachings? Man is on the threshold of a psychic transformation. Sounds like Draigo made the jump.

Draigo cares nothing about your weak and pathetic attempts at disbelief. Your thoughts only serve to expand his mythos, even the more heretical systems of faith represented here.

Regardless you all project your minds far into the future and there is much accomplishment in that. But you do so as followers of Ward despite your hatred for him. Wardian Mysticism is the doctrine that you debate when you elaborate on these future visions. Your cries of proper sciece or dogmatic cannon fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Beware the propaganda and the false profits. The alien, the mutant, the heretic are ever present.

Exalted!

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 02:23:02

Post by: Void__Dragon

FTHDace wrote:Horus lost to Constantin Valdor (Custodes) in a sparring match.

Where did this actually happen?

Forgive my vehement disbelief at this, but in my defense the notion of Horus losing to Constantin is both incredibly stupid and seems to have no evidence put forth other than warhammer40 wikia. And I don't trust wikis, especially when there is no citation. And the only other person I've heard seriously claim this also happens to be the biggest Custodian fanboy in the history of 40k fandom, while also being famously unreliable in terms of his interpretations of the fluff.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 02:31:29

Post by: bombboy1252

Radiation wrote:Draigo walks the righteous path through the Warp. Wasn't this what the Emperor was preparing humanity for? The Imperium of Man is supposed to be at the crossroads to something like this. The Corpse God is not going to reincarnate and coddle the weak. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. Men are supposed to master the Warp and no longer need rely on him. They will be strong enough to protect themselves against the predations of the false gods. Aren't these the original teachings? Man is on the threshold of a psychic transformation. Sounds like Draigo made the jump.

Draigo cares nothing about your weak and pathetic attempts at disbelief. Your thoughts only serve to expand his mythos, even the more heretical systems of faith represented here.

Regardless you all project your minds far into the future and there is much accomplishment in that. But you do so as followers of Ward despite your hatred for him. Wardian Mysticism is the doctrine that you debate when you elaborate on these future visions. Your cries of proper sciece or dogmatic cannon fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Beware the propaganda and the false profits. The alien, the mutant, the heretic are ever present.

Now I really REALLY like Radiation

Exalted!

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 02:41:41

Post by: Void__Dragon

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And Enslavers. And the Eldar Gods. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Enslavers are not prone to being mutated and having their very existence compromised by the Warp. And the Eldar gods are... You know, gods.

Oh, and considering that quite a few psychic powers, such as Bolt of Change, do nothing more than expose you to the raw Warp, being in the Warp in of itself is very dangerous.

Considering how the true name of a daemon is something the Chaos Gods use to control their servants in, you know, the Warp, I don't see why they wouldn't work there.

Considering that the True Name is just something created by the gods to, you know, bind them to them, and using it in the Materium is used to weaken their attachment on it, I'm not sure we can say that it would work in there for sure.

Also, Gellar Fields work by projecting a field that keeps daemons out of the ship, yes? Huh, what do you know, sounds an awful lot like the wards in Aegis armour to me. Is it that far-fetched that the wards of the Supreme Grand Master's suit of relic terminator armour would be able to defend him?

Aegis Armour doesn't make you completely immune to the power of the Warp. Nor is it necessarily the equivelant of a Gellar Field. That's an assumption, a big one at that.

Reply by: Greyish - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 10:09:13

Post by: Greyish

junk wrote:Re: Draigo vs. the Warp - In order to accept what Ward has written, what explanation can we invent that will allow Draigo to be acceptable? E.g. There seems to be less resistance to the idea that the entire planet of Titan could be hidden in the warp for an eon, maybe the GK developed their aegis during this time to withstand the warp?

All Grey Knights have the potential to traverse the warp without a Gellar Field. This is already alluded to in C:GK on page 28, under the Interceptors entry.

FTHDace wrote:Horus lost to Constantin Valdor (Custodes) in a sparring match. I like to think if he could do that then Draigo (just as strong as Constantin but is strong psyker/daemon hunter) could kill a primarch/daemon prince.

Unfortunately though the part about Horus vs Valdor is fanfiction. It's not in the BL novels and I've never seen anyone able to provide another paged source for it.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 12:47:43

Post by: Omegus

FTHDace wrote:Horus lost to Constantin Valdor (Custodes) in a sparring match.

This is garbage and lies. The only place I've ever seen this stated is on the internet, and when asked for a source, any source at all, all I get in response is sheepish silence. The very concept is ludicrous.

junk wrote:If we're willing to accept all the other pseudo-science of the 40k universe, it's not really that much of a stretch to imagine that a powerful psyker (one trained by a system designed specifically by the emperor in order to combat denizens of the warp) could buffer himself with a similar effect generated psychically.

Sure, possibly. But to do so indefinitely, while ransacking the very domains of the Chaos Gods, slaughtering literally endless hordes of daemons, and crushing the most powerful daemonic entities on their home turf with your bare hands?

Radiation wrote:deaf ears and blind eyes

You got that right.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 13:34:35

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

junk wrote:Well, how do Orks survive warp travel without a gellar field? And what is a gellar field made of?
Can a gellar field be generated psychically?

The First Heretic seems to imply that the gellar field mechanism has something to do with blood. Bloodrocution is a very real hazard when servicing gellar field equipment.

Greyish wrote:

junk wrote:Re: Draigo vs. the Warp - In order to accept what Ward has written, what explanation can we invent that will allow Draigo to be acceptable? E.g. There seems to be less resistance to the idea that the entire planet of Titan could be hidden in the warp for an eon, maybe the GK developed their aegis during this time to withstand the warp?

All Grey Knights have the potential to traverse the warp without a Gellar Field. This is already alluded to in C:GK on page 28, under the Interceptors entry.

They should expand on this. Perhaps it is standard operating procedure that every time one of them makes a warp jump they actually enter the Realm of Chaos for a few decades (time is fickle in the Warp afterall), kill a few thousand daemons and burn down Nurgle's garden (those pesky Grey Knights just won't stay off Papa's lawn!). I think that this would be some pretty compelling fluff and really add to the rich characterisation of the Grey Knights and their tragic struggle against Chaos. Matt Ward should get on it straight away!

Reply by: nectarprime - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 13:38:17

Post by: nectarprime

Draigo feeds off your hate and disbelief.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 13:39:04

Post by: Durza

nectarprime wrote:Draigo feeds off your hate and disbelief.

So do Ward and Goto. Soon their unholy alliance will be unstoppable.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 13:44:19

Post by: Mr Morden

As I read the piece in the GK codex - the personel teleporters seem to operate in the same way as those used by the Eldar Warp Spider Aspect Warriors?

It might even be "recovered" and reverse engineered technology by the Deathwatch.

It also implies it is a risky thing to undertake.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 13:49:30

Post by: Omegus

I thought Goto was just Ward's pseudonym? Multilazorz!

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 15:26:32

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

Mr Morden wrote:It also implies it is a risky thing to undertake.

Why would it be risky? Grey Knights don't die when they get sucked into the Warp - they get angry. The Interceptor would probably just look up Draigo and join his party to do Garden of Nurgle runs for extra XP. Hell, if enough of them got together they might even be able to carve out their own domain in Realm of Chaos and have a sweet clubhouse and everything!

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 16:36:33

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Void__Dragon wrote:[

Also, Gellar Fields work by projecting a field that keeps daemons out of the ship, yes? Huh, what do you know, sounds an awful lot like the wards in Aegis armour to me. Is it that far-fetched that the wards of the Supreme Grand Master's suit of relic terminator armour would be able to defend him?

Aegis Armour doesn't make you completely immune to the power of the Warp. Nor is it necessarily the equivelant of a Gellar Field. That's an assumption, a big one at that.

Yes, it's an assumption and I never claimed it to be something else. I outlined a possible scenario, I never claimed it to be the One Truth or anything. I even ended the statement with a question!

Void__Dragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And Enslavers. And the Eldar Gods. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Enslavers are not prone to being mutated and having their very existence compromised by the Warp. And the Eldar gods are... You know, gods.

I responded to a quote that said only Daemons of Chaos could live in the Warp, proving the quote wrong.

Now that I'm through with that, on to other stuff:

First off, I stand corrected. The Warp is, indeed, a place that is dangerous to simply be in. Mea culpa.


Secondly, daemons in the warp supposedly form their surroundings by sheer willpower. Why couldn't Draigo, who is a powerful psyker, be able to do the same? Just consider the sheer willpower every Grey Knights posesses.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:25:38

Post by: CpatTom

See, "daemon" is just a term. A label that was applied to the beings of the warp. The Eldar Gods, if I'm not mistaken on this (Someone please fact check this) are "daemons", as in, beings created in the warp because of a belief or emotion.

So, as the Eldar (and whatever other Creatures the War in Heaven had) are primarily responsible for the creation of "Chaos": collective disturbances in the Immatterium, because of their psychic nature.

So, if the Eldar's (and later man's) unbridled psychic nature can create gods, would it not follow that: The Grey Knights, a collection of the purest and most powerful psykers in the galaxy, would not create a "daemon" imbued with the characteristics of its creators? (Namely immunity to the an extreme advantage to the "Chaos" denizens of the warp?

Draigo as a Warp Reflection of his own chapter makes the most logical sense given his accomplishments after his Ascension.

Draigo is a "Daemon".

Edit for spellings.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

29934

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:26:23

Post by: Durza

Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:34:41

Post by: CpatTom

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:41:09

Post by: Psienesis

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

This is not how Daemons are created in the Warp. Daemons... not Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs or Matt Daemons... are entirely, 100% completely and entirely warp-stuff given a shape and sentience (shape optional). Draigo could not have been "once-material" and "now a daemon". It's simply not how it works.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:52:54

Post by: CpatTom

Psienesis wrote:This is not how Daemons are created in the Warp. Daemons... not Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs or Matt Daemons... are entirely, 100% completely and entirely warp-stuff given a shape and sentience (shape optional). Draigo could not have been "once-material" and "now a daemon". It's simply not how it works.

You can have an Idea of a thing, and the removal of said thing from real space, and creation in warp space could coincide. They are not the continuation of One Sentient being , but two that share the same shape. They are two separate Entities. Which could explain Draigo's non-recognition of his Grey Knight Brethren on return from the warp? His apparent not need to eat, or sleep, or reload, or all those other things people complain about.

Reply by: BrainDeleted - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:56:25

Post by: BrainDeleted

Matthew Ward wrote:Matt Ward says: Lord Kaldor Draigo is a combat monster - there's no other way to describe him. He's lethal against non-daemonic foes, with plenty of Strength 5 force weapon attacks to lay a beat down. When faced with hated Daemons, his Titansword becomes Strength 10, ensuring a pretty one-sided fight in his favour. Even if his enemy survives, Draigo's storm shield is sure to keep him fighting. And on top of all of this, Draigo is a Grand Master, able to bestow extra abilities on his allies. Want your Dreadknight to capture objectives? Draigo can make that happen. Want a Scouting screen of Dreadnoughts? Draigo can make it happen. He's the best possible way to keep your opponent on his toes.

Draigo can make it happen.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 17:59:47

Post by: Durza

BrainDeleted wrote:

Matthew Ward wrote:Matt Ward says: Lord Kaldor Draigo is a combat monster - there's no other way to describe him. He's lethal against non-daemonic foes, with plenty of Strength 5 force weapon attacks to lay a beat down. When faced with hated Daemons, his Titansword becomes Strength 10, ensuring a pretty one-sided fight in his favour. Even if his enemy survives, Draigo's storm shield is sure to keep him fighting. And on top of all of this, Draigo is a Grand Master, able to bestow extra abilities on his allies. Want your Dreadknight to capture objectives? Draigo can make that happen. Want a Scouting screen of Dreadnoughts? Draigo can make it happen. He's the best possible way to keep your opponent on his toes.

Draigo can make it happen.

You know, when people suggest characters like that in the Proposed Rules, they're called something... what was it? Oh yeah. Ridiculous.

Reply by: Abadabadoobaddon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 18:08:32

Post by: Abadabadoobaddon

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

Nothing in the actual written fluff supports or even hints at this. All fluff points to Draigo being able to do what he does because he is just that awesome The End.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Draigo @ 2011/10/26 18:35:43

Post by: CpatTom

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

Nothing in the actual written fluff supports or even hints at this. All fluff points to Draigo being able to do what he does because he is just that awesome The End.

It makes more sense than: He's that awesome. Things that have the greatest amount of support for them (or lack of contradtictions), are the most likely to be true. Draigo is kewl is not an argument, its an opinion, and cannot be refuted. You are allowed to have your opinions. But, given they cannot be refuted, they provide no basis for discussion, and thus should be relegate to sig's; however, thats just my opinion.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 18:55:47

Post by: Durza

Surly the best thing would be for instead of Draigo constantly fighting in the Warp, it got changed to him being constantly flung through time and space. Makes a helluva lot more sense to me than him surviving in the Warp or spontaneously daemonifying.

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 19:01:51

Post by: Omegus

Sounds like a great idea for a Quantum Leap reboot.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 19:34:40

Post by: junk

Omegus wrote:Sounds like a great idea for a Quantum Leap reboot.

Oh boy.

Reply by: KamikazeCanuck - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 20:32:44

Post by: KamikazeCanuck

It's because he's that awesome: The End. Sure, Malcador, Eldrad and The Emperor himself couldn't trapse around the warp like that but that is because they are not as awesome as Draigo.

Reply by: StormForged - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 21:20:24

Post by: StormForged

Reading through this thread makes me happy that I read Imperial Guard fluff and stories. They die in droves and still get stuff done.


But isn't almost all Space Marine fluff epitomized to be over the top? Wouldn't it make sense to make Draigo, the head honcho of the most elite Space Marine Chapter then supposed go even further to put the old over-the-top Space Marine Fluff to shame?

While Matt Ward is partially responsible for writing like a dreaming teenager, someone had to see it coming. Out of all the Space Marine fluff that has splurged out into 'canon' space (Feth you Graham McNeil), it was building up to a tipping point, and this tipping point of over-the-top Space Marine Milarky came in the form of Kaldor Draigo.

That's all I got.

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/26 21:23:51

Post by: iproxtaco

Lol, canon. I laugh at the term. This is GW youngling, there is no such thing as canon.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

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Draigo @ 2011/10/27 04:28:42

Post by: Void__Dragon

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Yes, it's an assumption and I never claimed it to be something else. I outlined a possible scenario, I never claimed it to be the One Truth or anything. I even ended the statement with a question!

I dunno man, I feel like something like that could be mentioned.

I responded to a quote that said only Daemons of Chaos could live in the Warp, proving the quote wrong.

Now that I'm through with that, on to other stuff:

First off, I stand corrected. The Warp is, indeed, a place that is dangerous to simply be in. Mea culpa.

Secondly, daemons in the warp supposedly form their surroundings by sheer willpower. Why couldn't Draigo, who is a powerful psyker, be able to do the same? Just consider the sheer willpower every Grey Knights posesses.

I can think of only two psykers who were capable of traversing the Immaterium without effort and without being in serious danger. The Emperor and Magnus the Red, who often did so together as weird father/son bonding trips I guess. Notice that both of these individuals are the most powerful psykers ever.

Also, they did so while themselves being Immaterial, projecting their massive Warp presences. Draigo is material, and as such his body as well as his spirit would be vulnerable to the Warpstuff. Noticeable, even Ahriman, one of the most powerful psykers to ever live and the most powerful psyker in the Thousand Sons under Magnus, was still endangered and had a close call once in A Thousand Sons while traversing the Imperium.

It's not that Draigo has merely survived some time in the Warp, he has survived and is seemingly unstoppable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CpatTom wrote:See, "daemon" is just a term. A label that was applied to the beings of the warp. The Eldar Gods, if I'm not mistaken on this (Someone please fact check this) are "daemons", as in, beings created in the warp because of a belief or emotion.

They are not really Daemons. Such a term is insulting, to be honest, when applied to them. They are massive Warp entities created by emotion, specifically by the emotions of the Eldar race, and guided them. Like Gork and Mork are.

So, as the Eldar (and whatever other Creatures the War in Heaven had) are primarily responsible for the creation of "Chaos": collective disturbances in the Immatterium, because of their psychic nature.

So, if the Eldar's (and later man's) unbridled psychic nature can create gods, would it not follow that: The Grey Knights, a collection of the purest and most powerful psykers in the galaxy, would not create a "daemon" imbued with the characteristics of its creators? (Namely immunity to the an extreme advantage to the "Chaos" denizens of the warp?

Uh...

There are a thousand Grey Knights.

As in, not really a lot. The notion that their Warp presence would be capable of creating the equivelant of entire civilizations is blegh.

Draigo as a Warp Reflection of his own chapter makes the most logical sense given his accomplishments after his Ascension.

Draigo is a "Daemon".

Edit for spellings.

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

He can do this because he's just that awesome. Nowhere is Draigo becoming some kind of Grey Knight Daemon Prince implied.

Reply by: junk - click to view full reply 

44333

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 04:52:45

Post by: junk

Void__Dragon wrote:

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

Reply by: ShatteredBlade - click to view full reply 

41664

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 04:57:02

Post by: ShatteredBlade

junk wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

You know, I think that this would have been a far representation of Draigo.

Reply by: Void__Dragon - click to view full reply 

45234

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 05:12:53

Post by: Void__Dragon

junk wrote:Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

He's the product of bad writing?

Reply by: BrainDeleted - click to view full reply 

49321

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 05:17:29

Post by: BrainDeleted

Void__Dragon wrote:He's the product of bad writing?

Is he ever! No explanations at all in the writing. Draigo wrought x. Draigo performed y. Draigo endured z. The extent of the writing is basically, 'It's just there. I wrote this in a codex because I can. Accept it.'

Reply by: DeffDred - click to view full reply 

44326

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 06:01:53

Post by: DeffDred

Draigo (IMHO) is identical to the Ork in the Warp. Tzeentch controls ALL things.

Tzeentch probably thought it would be the height of comedy to bring the "greatest" of the Emperors warriors into his realm and use him for useless nonsense.
Things like "burning down the garden of Nurgle" are just dumb. Fire destroys... that makes Nurgle happy. "Destroying the Tzeentch city" just brought CHANGE to the realm of the lord of CHANGE!

Draigo is a chump. Nothing more than a pawn of chaos for all time. Let us mourn the loss of this great hero.

Reply by: bombboy1252 - click to view full reply 

45116

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 12:23:25

Post by: bombboy1252

DeffDred wrote:Draigo (IMHO) is identical to the Ork in the Warp. Tzeentch controls ALL things.

AFAIK, Tzeentch only controls his daemons...he doesn't control anything...he plans everything, if everything was controlled by him, he would be very unhappy because he wouldn't have to plan for anything...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:He's the product of bad writing?

No


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Lol, canon. I laugh at the term. This is GW youngling, there is no such thing as canon.

Hahaha

This is the truest statement I have heard all day. which doesn't mean much because I just woke up

Reply by: Omegus - click to view full reply 

30289

Draigo @ 2011/10/27 12:27:28

Post by: Omegus

Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.

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