CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Another problem is that you are assuming that the spartan has a 100% chance of hitting the eyes with each shot. That is wrong, as it would be very, very difficult to do so at a safe range.
With an A.I on board, i think that's pretty much possible. That's literally like having an aim-bot in your head.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They are, after all, humanities greatest warriors.
So are Spartans.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Good luck to the Spartan if he can get the damned bolter to work. They look very unwieldy.
I don't see any reason why they can't use them
Brother Coa wrote:
The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.
And most of them are related to other Astartes that went psychotic.
im2randomghgh wrote:About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.
A second heart isn't THAT useful. It increases bloodflow, sure, but if one gets ruined the loss of pressure will render the other one inoperable anwyay.
You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.
As anyone would have to be left behind. It wasn't a small hole in his suit, it was a large abdominal wound. A Marine attempting to go EVA under those circumstances would also be turned inside out.
Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.
Fair enough.
Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.
Erm, no, the link with spartan armour is much more advanced than astartes black carapace, and spartans are stronger, if anything.
1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.
2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).
4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.
And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.
An average space marine is 7'6 and easily twice the girth of a normal man, probably more. They are taller, wider, thicker and more massive than a human could ever possibly be. I'd wager an armourless marine could toss a spartan about like a toddler. And they wear tanks, and are more skilled and experienced than spartans, using weapons that nothing in the entire halo universe can compare to.
A spartan is MAYBE half that girth, 10" shorter (MC is 6'10) about half the weight of a Space Marine, way less experienced and with inferior training.
There is NO WAY they are stronger. Their armour is inferior to an enormous degree.
HUGE unarmoured areas on them. Space marines have the inside of their joints and their neck as their only weaker areas, and even then, they have armoured rubber/small, moving plates (depending on source) protecting these.
The reason you might shoot the groin area is because you may be trying to shatter the pelvis and/or puncture the Arteries that feed the legs.
The SPARTEN doesn't know that a Space Marine cares nothing for his chicken nuggets or that his blood will clot instantly and so he will simply be taking his foe at face value(Thick armor over entire body, aim for weak spots such as the head and groin)
My personal opinion is that a space marine would be able to defeat a Spartan II. But without some sort of standard between the two, it is difficult to say. I don't know how much force ceremite can absorb or an iron halo and compare that to whatever materials were used in a Spartan II.
Also the Spartan II was developed around 2550. That leaves a 38000+ year gap in mechanical and bio technology in favor of the IoM.
Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/SPARTEN not knowing how to mess with the relativly simple magazine "What is this?" "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"
Brother Coa wrote:
Not most of them, most dire battles Astartes were part of happened after HH
... against Chaos Space Marines and renegade Chapters that went berzerk.
Brother Coa wrote:
Also - no Hell in HALO universe and because of that no Chaos SPARTANS.
I didn't mean literally Chaos Space marines. I meant to say that spartans don't fall to moral and emotional extremes like SM do.
"Like damn holding back a lake, when a Space Marine's will finally breaks, the result is catastrophic as the whole edifice of his purpose and self-being fall into disarray."
Grey Templar wrote:yes, but even then its still completely different to a normal humans emotions(which SPARTENs still have)
A Space Marines grief would not be the same as a normal humans.
And spartans are less devoted to the fight-they retire.
... against Chaos Space Marines and renegade Chapters that went berzerk.
Umm...no. There aren't that many space marines, battles against renegades are rare. The HH and the First war for armaggeddon, along with the black crusades, are the only MAJOR astartes vs astartes battles.
Grey Templar wrote:Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/
Well if they are >>2m tall, can flip a tank, and wear a 500kg armor - i guess they can use a bolter.
Grey Templar wrote: "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"
Spartans don't need ammo meter because the sensors on his armor counts that for him. And they have
sensors in their gloves that detect the type of weapon.
Grey Templar wrote:Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/
Well if they are >>2m tall, can flip a tank, and wear a 500kg armor - i guess they can use a bolter.
Grey Templar wrote: "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"
Spartans don't need ammo meter because the sensors on his armor counts that for him. And they have sensors in their gloves that detect the type of weapon.
(I'm not joking, it's on the Halo wiki)
1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour. And space marine armour is WAY heavier. And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD. they are simply massive. The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.
1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour.
The exact weight is not important here. If the armor weighted 300kg or 600kg, it's the same point.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD.
Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.
Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.
Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)
im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.
Cortana can analyze it. No probs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote: There is an entire galaxy with only 1,000,000 loyal space marines and ~100,000 CSM
Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.
Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.
The spartan laser is certainly long, but its definitely not as chunky as a bolter. And lets be reminded that even if the Spartan can pick it up and use it, it is designed to be used as a rifle, not a heavy weapon. And looking at how they carry their spartan lasers, a weapon you agree is the same size...
verterdegete wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.
Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)
You are aware that the Astartes use their own Mark of bolters, very large ones. I mean, have you see how big they are on the models? The 'civilian' issue ones are a hell of a lot smaller, and STILL massive to the user.
verterdegete wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.
Cortana can analyze it. No probs.
Thats not really an acceptable argument, and I think we both know it But ok, lets run with it. What proof do you have that cortana would be able to analyze this weapon with absolutely no data. Sure, they could just mess around with it for half an hour, but then, Cortana isn't the one analyzing it, is she And don't bring up anything about analyzing covenant ship weapon systems and then making upgrades, in that case she was plugged into the actual computer, getting any data directly rather than having to go get it herself. A completely different scenario. Also, I think we have established that in this fight, it will be a bog standard Spartan, not the MC, because thats simply not very fair. It would be like comparing Lysander to a guardsman. And if MC isn't there, I don't think Cortana is.
1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour.
The exact weight is not important here. If the armor weighted 300kg or 600kg, it's the same point.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD.
Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.
Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.
Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)
im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.
Cortana can analyze it. No probs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote: There is an entire galaxy with only 1,000,000 loyal space marines and ~100,000 CSM
Yet they still decide the fate of the galaxy.
1. Whatever
2. In the space marine game, you can flip a CSM over your head, one handed. You can also overpower an ork nob, who's one par with a hunter in size and strength. And the child in question was an adolescent.
3. They are the only ones who use astartes bolter. Not every bolter in 40k is one of those used by Space Marines. And the only other primary users of bolters are Sisters, who use smaller bolters and who also wear PA.
4. Yeah...no. The sensors in Master Chief's hand could tell the difference between a spartan laser and a plasma pistol, sure, but an unknown weapon? I think not!
5. Not so much. The IG has a much larger impact on the galaxy, as well as the IN. Trillion/quadrillions of troopers is worth more than 1 million SM for sure.
im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.
2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).
4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.
And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.
1 - Whatever. That doesn't help your point at all.
2 - Anyone with a gaping abdominal wound will be in deep gak if they try to enter a hard vacuum. A 'layer of mucus' isn't going to do squat.
3 - The 'plug' in the back of their head is a link to a full neural network link. It provides a link so deep "it is impossible to chart reaction times.' It is literally a part of their body. The armour also weighs 450kgs empty, and 650kgs when worn by a Spartan II, who are also a good 7 to 8 feet in height. They can easily lift 3900kgs in armour, and as stated have no trouble digging their fingers into dropship bulkheads to provide a handgrip.
Look, I'm all for engaging in a fun debate, but could you try and take your fanboy glasses off for a while and look at things with a bit of objectivity? Spartans are strong enough to juggle family sized cars, for christs sake! Inferior training? You gotta be kidding me...
im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.
2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).
4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.
And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.
1 - Whatever. That doesn't help your point at all.
2 - Anyone with a gaping abdominal wound will be in deep gak if they try to enter a hard vacuum. A 'layer of mucus' isn't going to do squat.
3 - The 'plug' in the back of their head is a link to a full neural network link. It provides a link so deep "it is impossible to chart reaction times.' It is literally a part of their body. The armour also weighs 450kgs empty, and 650kgs when worn by a Spartan II, who are also a good 7 to 8 feet in height. They can easily lift 3900kgs in armour, and as stated have no trouble digging their fingers into dropship bulkheads to provide a handgrip.
Look, I'm all for engaging in a fun debate, but could you try and take your fanboy glasses off for a while and look at things with a bit of objectivity? Spartans are strong enough to juggle family sized cars, for christs sake! Inferior training? You gotta be kidding me...
1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.
2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.
3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles. Spartans are not "7-8 feet".
Master chief is 6'10 Emile is 6'10 Naomi is 2m (6'6) Serin is 6'3 Joshua 7' William is 7' Jorge (the tallest Spartan) 7'4 Adriana described as being slightly over 6' Carter is 6'10 Catherine is 6'9 Jun is 6'11.
As you can see, the average is about 6'10-6'11.
NOT 7-8'.
Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.
3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.
In Salamanders, Tu'shan is pinned underneath a Landraider and lifts it off himself. He was lying on his back, with the Landraider on tip of him. He basically bench-pressed it. That's 72 tons, or 72000kgs. With just his chest and triceps. And he's not even an especially large marine, like Ba'ken or Pasanius.
And I am the fanboy? I don't even like Astartes. I simply acknowledge the fact that they are amongst the best, if not THE best, most powerful example of the Space Marine archtype. They are simply OP. YOU on the other hand, seem to think Spartans are unstoppable forces of nature that can slay gods with a thought.
Brother Coa wrote:And again only one men saw my post....
There are still people favorite SPARTANS over the Astartes? The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.
SPARTANS did a hell of a job to, nearly all killed and Mankind evading extermination just barely.
Im not here to point out who wins, I merely point out the fallacy in the few meter fall damage in a game to be used in an argument.
Most of the Spartans died on Reach right? Half of the UNSC fleet was also lost. ... fastfoward to 31st millenia. horus Heresy. +614,394,400 ships fighting above terra. Space Marine Legions vs each other. Daemons vs Space Marines Titans Space marines are 8 feet tall. On average. A Spartan is 7feet tall. In many of the books. They are killed left and right in a dramatic way.
In most space marine books. Space marines die in the most horrific ways. For example Horus rising...
Spoiler:
When one of the marines is walking around he steps in a pool, and creatures start pulling him apart and start festering inside of him
A space marine also has something called a jet pack and they never travel alone. Spartans Are lone wolves. Especially Spartan II's Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three... They almost always were sent on sucidie missions. And most of them died on reach....
Space marines have never ever been wiped out completely to only 30 on one planet. The closest is probably the Dropsite massacre. But that was just something completely different. IT was worst than reach. It was hundreds of thousands of marines facing each other. Not just five hundred spartans vs a Covenant Armada which consisted of only 100 ships. Compared to 40k. That is 900 ships too small. Oh no super carrier. Wait they did what? Oh yeah they blew it up with an engine. They also destroyed one with a nuke! They were blinded by a small squad of skirmishers and elite zealots.... Thats what 100 covenant troops? In 40k the numbers are ridiculous. Reach had 300 million soldiers and a 250 trillion dollar defense budget.
The entire ultramarines chapter was deployed against the tyranid hive fleet. The entire chapter along with volunteers from a titan legion, pdf, IG regiments, other chapters. And the Entire Segment fleet.... IT took all that. And they still won. Only 3 companies were lost....
Don't even get me started on the Death Watch's secret weapon projects! I love halo. But the only universe that beats them by a long shot is Mech Commander. Who I will not even discuss because they are freaking ridiculous along with the Mass Effect universe's reapers.
im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.
Only when using them aerobically. Anaerobic usage, the kind you'd expect to find in intense combat situations, would be unchanged.
2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.
It was gaping. And no amount of larraman clots are going to be enough to prevent explosive decompression of internal organs.
3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles.
As does Mjolnir armour. Concede the point already.
Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.
3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.
Woah woah woah! Who said anything about deadlifts? All the text says is 'lift'. I'm imagining lateral side raises, buddy.
In Fall of Reach, theres a scene where, unarmoured, a Spartan kicks an armoured lifting rig ala Ripley from Aliens, bending it and hurling it backwards several metres. The same kick to a LR would have crumpled it.
And I am the fanboy?
Yes, you're the fanboy. You're unable to concede a point, make up ridiculous assertations and ignore similar points from the opposition. You've picked a side, and now can't imagine that you might be wrong, or that there might be merit to your opponents points.
Grey Templar wrote:Wait, you are saying that because a Sparten could knock up some box mover that he could dent a Battletank?
There is a heck of a big difference between an armored forklift and a 72ton battletank.
I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.
But the nodes are the same the 1 for Spartans is at least equal to the 12 for space marines, if they also have one in the neck doing the same thing the extra 11 don't do squat.
The two hearts were designed to work TOGETER losing one would still kill them, having both though I a advantage as it increases reflexes and such.
And all it would take is some Spartan lasers they wod be ap 1 and have a continues line for it's shot, depending on when it's shot it could kill up to 10 on one shot(if it hits ten in ares that would kill them, but in CC space Marines all the way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a elephant is at least as heavy, if not heavier, then a LR
Just throwing this out there, and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already, but... The Scorpion tank in Halo weighs 66 metric tons according to http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank and as I said I'm not sure if you guys ruled it out yet (I myself do find it a bit ludicrous) but there's the fact that in every game you can kinda FLIP the 66 ton tank completely over. That much force applied straight to the side of a Bassie or a Russ (not much of a SM guy here, I just know my IG) could most likely punch a hole clean through or crumple the armor. Anybody else wanna do the Mathammer here? That's equivalent to 586767.0914 Newtons of force just to lift it off the ground, much less flip it end for end. Somebody give me an example of SM manilness in the lifting and flipping category and I'll calculate it out to the best of my ability. Might as well get some use out of my Physics classes
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and for the record I try to stay away from comparing the tech of each universe and just stick to the numbers, but I do recall in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels a single lasgun shot to the head of a CSM actually blew his brains out. One of the Guardsmen disobeyed orders and turned his power up to high instead of saving ammo like Guardsmen are supposed to and took the Marine out with one clean shot. Now if someone could please give me a readout of the lasgun's typical power from the Departmento Munitorium I could proceed to giving some numbers to base the weapon strengths off of for each universe.
Or we could just say that the SM and the Chief realize they have better things to be fighting than each other and have the Spartans join a Scout Marine squad as independent characters and forget about arguing over which one is better. Hell, I'm just having fun crunching numbers!
Automatically Appended Next Post: In response to SM emotion, a nifty quote for it is, "Do NOT think lowly of guardsmen. It's easy for us fight - we are as powerful as a human can be. But Guardsman have to run over the corpses of their friends, and still have the resolve to fire their lasguns." -Reclusiarch Lacelles, Eclipse Hawks Chapter.
As for the Bolter firing, check pages 62 and 98 of the IG codex. Gunnery Sgt. 'Stonetooth' Harker carries a heavy bolter named "Payback" as his primary weapon and still manages to be part of a stealth squad. Keep in mind that no matter how manly he is or how many watermelons he's smuggling in his biceps, he's still just a Guardsman. Toting a weapon only meant to be mounted on tanks. So it IS possible, even in the 40k universe. Just a bit unwieldy I suppose. And for the record the SM boltguns of all varieties have the exact same profile as the ones in the IG codex that the little Guardsman can use, so I would assume SMs just have bigger grips and such to fit their meaty paws. No more destructive than what any other man can use.
You are aware that the Astartes use their own Mark of bolters, very large ones. I mean, have you see how big they are on the models? The 'civilian' issue ones are a hell of a lot smaller, and STILL massive to the user.
Bolters aren't really that big (or complex) as you guys are making them out to be, and spartans aren't really that small. It would look like a heavy bolter in their hands, but i strongly believe they could use them.
Randomonioum wrote:
Thats not really an acceptable argument, and I think we both know it But ok, lets run with it. What proof do you have that cortana would be able to analyze this weapon with absolutely no data. Sure, they could just mess around with it for half an hour, but then, Cortana isn't the one analyzing it, is she And don't bring up anything about analyzing covenant ship weapon systems and then making upgrades, in that case she was plugged into the actual computer, getting any data directly rather than having to go get it herself. A completely different scenario.
Exactly, that was a space ship, and this is a machine gun.
Randomonioum wrote:
Also, I think we have established that in this fight, it will be a bog standard Spartan, not the MC, because thats simply not very fair. It would be like comparing Lysander to a guardsman. And if MC isn't there, I don't think Cortana is.
We don't know how good MC is compared to other Spartans. They could all be equal in combat, or (more likely) have different strength's and weaknesses. Cortana said that she picked him over other Spartans just because he had more "luck" than the others.
And they can use other A.I .
im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Yeah...no. The sensors in Master Chief's hand could tell the difference between a spartan laser and a plasma pistol, sure, but an unknown weapon? I think not!
So, you would be completely clueless about how this works ?
Come on guys, don't overcomplicate things.
im2randomghgh wrote:
5. Not so much. The IG has a much larger impact on the galaxy, as well as the IN. Trillion/quadrillions of troopers is worth more than 1 million SM for sure.
This deserves a debate for itself.
Asherian Command wrote:
Most of the Spartans died on Reach right?
Half of the UNSC fleet was also lost.
...
fastfoward to 31st millenia.
horus Heresy.
+614,394,400 ships fighting above terra.
Space Marine Legions vs each other.
Daemons vs Space Marines
Titans
Space marines are 8 feet tall. On average.
A Spartan is 7feet tall. In many of the books. They are killed left and right in a dramatic way.
In most space marine books. Space marines die in the most horrific ways. For example Horus rising...
Spoiler:
A space marine also has something called a jet pack and they never travel alone.
Spartans Are lone wolves.
Especially Spartan II's
Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three... They almost always were sent on sucidie missions. And most of them died on reach....
Space marines have never ever been wiped out completely to only 30 on one planet. The closest is probably the Dropsite massacre. But that was just something completely different. IT was worst than reach. It was hundreds of thousands of marines facing each other. Not just five hundred spartans vs a Covenant Armada which consisted of only 100 ships.
Compared to 40k. That is 900 ships too small.
Oh no super carrier.
Wait they did what? Oh yeah they blew it up with an engine. They also destroyed one with a nuke!
They were blinded by a small squad of skirmishers and elite zealots.... Thats what 100 covenant troops? In 40k the numbers are ridiculous. Reach had 300 million soldiers and a 250 trillion dollar defense budget.
The entire ultramarines chapter was deployed against the tyranid hive fleet. The entire chapter along with volunteers from a titan legion, pdf, IG regiments, other chapters. And the Entire Segment fleet.... IT took all that. And they still won. Only 3 companies were lost....
Just a few notes:
- Scale of 40k and Halo events are irrelevant for this debate.
- I would really like to know the source for "+614,394,400 ships fighting above terra."
- Spartans also have jet packs
- Statments that "Spartans are lone wolves" and "Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three" contradict each other
- There were only 33 spartans
- Reach invasion force had more than 300 ships
- That is actually around 614.394.100 ships too small, according to your previous statement.
- The ship destroyed with a nuke in that trailer wasn't a super carrier.
- There's a bit more to say about that super carrier takedown than simple " They took it out with an engine".
Did you just say that scales of 40k and Halo are to be ignored?
They are very important to this debate, to determine how strong one is we must see the bigger picture.
And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....
Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that scales of 40k and Halo are to be ignored?
They are very important to this debate, to determine how strong one is we must see the bigger picture.
In a IoM vs UNSC debate yes. In Spartan vs. SM one, not really.
Brother Coa wrote:
And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....
verterdegete wrote:
In a IoM vs UNSC debate yes. In Spartan vs. SM one, not really.
That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.
Brother Coa wrote:
And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....
This is a very ignorant comment.
Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.
Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.
Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.
Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.
In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.
A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.
Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.
Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.
Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.
In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.
1. Bolters do NOT fire rockets nor bullets and do not work like the fuel rod gun. They fire high velocity diamond tipped rounds that penetrate INTO the target, and then detonate. There is nothing like that in halo, and it is certainly more dangerous than rockets in a way, as they detonate within the target instead of blowing up against the target.
2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand?
3. Fair enough
4. This is not about the chief vs SM, this is about normal SPARTANs against normal SM. If you are adding the Chief into the equation, we might as well have him fight Draigo. And what do you mean elites have better shields and armor? SM cannot be killed with small arms unless you get very lucky. Elites can be easily killed by small arms provided you overload their shields, which doesn't take long.
That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.
I wasn't going to start one. The answer is, as you said, obvious.
Brother Coa wrote:
Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.
Their task in the war was to assassinate, sabotage, plant bombs etc.
The entire "Marines would hold the line and fight the fleetz" argument that you and some other people constantly bring up is completely irrelevant in the case of spartans, because their mission performance is measured by using completely different standards.
That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.
I wasn't going to start one. The answer is, as you said, obvious.
Brother Coa wrote:
Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.
The entire "Marines would hold the line and fight the fleetz" argument that you and some other people constantly bring up is completely irrelevant in the case of spartans, because their mission performance is measured by using completely different standards.
In that case the question is...who would win? A SPARTAN or a Vindicare?
CthuluIsSpy wrote:2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand [out of their armour]?
Just a quick edit to qualify that.
There's one thing many people seem to be forgetting, which is the height of an Astartes - 7'6'' - 9' in height (dependant on source). That gives them one hell of a massive reach with their arms. A SPARTAN would have to risk those massive hands with their phenomenal strength to get close enough to hit an Astartes, all the while the Astartes is able to move quicker than a human - neither their armour or bulk slow them down as they are strong enough to carry the combined weight easily.
As to SPARTANs using Astartes bolters, the big problem is the size of them. I'm sure with their enhanced strength a SPARTAN can pick one up, but their hands aren't big enough to wield it comfortably enough. On one of my recent trips to Warhammer World there was a 1:1 Astartes Stormbolter in a case in the stairwell beneath the museum. To pull the trigger I'd have needed three fingers and I would not have been able to hold the pistol grip at all. That grip was at least twice the width of my hands in length and thick enough that my hands would not have closed around it wholly.
soundwave591 wrote:Except that there were wayy more space marines created than Spartans. So it's not relevant or important to the discussion
How it is not relevant? The only SPARTAN that manage to did something to end the war was Master Chief.
On the other hand... Ultramarines held defended Macragge and thus saving countless billions from Tyranids, Space Wolves help to defend Armageddon against Chaos, Blood Angels help defend Armageddon against Orks, Slamanders and Raven Guard offer assistance to every Imperial Commander in need of one, Black Tempalrs are on a crusades to help protect the Imperium against ravaging alien empires and rebellious planets.
Space Marines are WAY more credited then SPARTANS because they get the job done, unlike some people... I think this is very important part of this "who is better" discussion.
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verterdegete wrote:You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.
This just goes to Space Marines as well, because even the finest Imperial Assassins have big trouble to kill even one Astartes. Case closed - thank you.
Then this thread is really irreverent, because they won't stand a chance against even 1 Imperial assassin.
This should then be Eversor vs. SPARTAN.
I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.
I just have one question, Kaldor.
Did you read that great big wall o' text I posted earlier? Because, as I pointed out then, you're wrong.
If you don't want to look back through the thread for it, I'd be happy to quote it for you.
It's relevant because someone brought up how many were left. It's not hard to run out when at most you had ~100 total Spartan 2 and 3, fighting a enemy they knew nothing about at first using guns that werent super effective.
Also no he's just done the most, red team stoped the covenant from having a unstopable armada, grey team is still around causing trouble, completing their mission to disrupt enemy supply lines, they follow orders I.e. Only as effective as those ordering them
A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.
Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.
Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.
Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.
In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.
1. Bolters do NOT fire rockets nor bullets and do not work like the fuel rod gun. They fire high velocity diamond tipped rounds that penetrate INTO the target, and then detonate. There is nothing like that in halo, and it is certainly more dangerous than rockets in a way, as they detonate within the target instead of blowing up against the target.
2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand?
3. Fair enough
4. This is not about the chief vs SM, this is about normal SPARTANs against normal SM. If you are adding the Chief into the equation, we might as well have him fight Draigo. And what do you mean elites have better shields and armor? SM cannot be killed with small arms unless you get very lucky. Elites can be easily killed by small arms provided you overload their shields, which doesn't take long.
1-Not the fuel rod gun, the gun they inserted into reach which has a redish tint and fires slow moving rounds. Pretty sure bolter rounds are rocket projected explosive warheads. A rocket launcher is a rocket launcher and therefore has str8 ap3 and would instant kill a marine. If you look at stuff the steel legion and the orks have its actually more primitive than what the UNSC has. Also, they only go INTO the target, if it penetrates their armour, which even joe carapace armour can stop; those who die are killed by the force of the explosion or hitting exposed areas. In Halo Fall of Reach the unshielded Spartans actually get shot at by a whole army of grunts with plasma pistols and needlers but are able to resist with just their armour. That seems a bit tougher than just carapace armour which is more comparable to what ODST's/Halo CE marines wear. Given abstractions in the game, that probably would=a 3+ save. Much like SOB armour is technically less protective than that of marines (see Dark heresy n Death watch) but for the sake of arguement puts it into a 3+ save.
2-They can crush an elites skull, in one of the books a spartan rugby tackles a hunter, when the chief recieves his augmentations he shatters a ODST's pelvis with a single kick. During that fistfight he actually kills several of them and that was WITHOUT his armour. So yes a human skull would be very easy. Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.
4-Halo 2 on High Charity as the chief elites which have the white colouration require multiple rocket rounds to kill. i think several other units require large amounts of fire to kill ie Brute Chieftens who don't even have shields. It can also take a considerable amount of fire on legendary and if you don't hit them in the head with a battle rifle/DMR which is the easiest way to kill them then they actually take quite a lot of damage considering they're in the open. Also, the lore is massively contentious as to how tough Space Marines actually are. In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma) and in the Horus Heresy their armour is easily cut through by bolt rounds and marines with knives; even though that wouldn't actually happen in game. According to Fire Warrior, marine armour is vulnerable at the eye sockets and joints. Kais also kills a marine with a basic plasma grenade. So they're not invincible, I mean even Ciaphus Cain kills one with a chainsword! Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.
'They're tough, but they ain't invincible.'-Sergent Johnson commenting on a covenant scarab
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Sparks_Havelock wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand [out of their armour]?
Just a quick edit to qualify that.
There's one thing many people seem to be forgetting, which is the height of an Astartes - 7'6'' - 9' in height (dependant on source). That gives them one hell of a massive reach with their arms. A SPARTAN would have to risk those massive hands with their phenomenal strength to get close enough to hit an Astartes, all the while the Astartes is able to move quicker than a human - neither their armour or bulk slow them down as they are strong enough to carry the combined weight easily.
As to SPARTANs using Astartes bolters, the big problem is the size of them. I'm sure with their enhanced strength a SPARTAN can pick one up, but their hands aren't big enough to wield it comfortably enough. On one of my recent trips to Warhammer World there was a 1:1 Astartes Stormbolter in a case in the stairwell beneath the museum. To pull the trigger I'd have needed three fingers and I would not have been able to hold the pistol grip at all. That grip was at least twice the width of my hands in length and thick enough that my hands would not have closed around it wholly.
Sisters of battle use the exact same weapons without much trouble, including storm bolters.
im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.
Only when using them aerobically. Anaerobic usage, the kind you'd expect to find in intense combat situations, would be unchanged.
2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.
It was gaping. And no amount of larraman clots are going to be enough to prevent explosive decompression of internal organs.
3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles.
As does Mjolnir armour. Concede the point already.
Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.
3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.
Woah woah woah! Who said anything about deadlifts? All the text says is 'lift'. I'm imagining lateral side raises, buddy.
In Fall of Reach, theres a scene where, unarmoured, a Spartan kicks an armoured lifting rig ala Ripley from Aliens, bending it and hurling it backwards several metres. The same kick to a LR would have crumpled it.
And I am the fanboy?
Yes, you're the fanboy. You're unable to concede a point, make up ridiculous assertations and ignore similar points from the opposition. You've picked a side, and now can't imagine that you might be wrong, or that there might be merit to your opponents points.
1. You're missing the point that if their bodies can supply more oxygen to their arms than they can spend, is remains aerobic. If they cannot, than that means Space Marines are using power on a level unthinkable by Spartans. It really wouldn't be unchanged at all. Their capacity would be easily 300-400% greater than a Space Marine sans the multi lung and second heart.
2. No, it really, really wasn't gaping. And yes, the larraman cells would stop it. You seem to drastically underestimate what their capable of. Anything that can cause a marine to bleed, can be stopped by Larraman cells. You forget that they are literally demi-gods.
3. No, Mjolnir doesn't do that. The link the have to mjolnir is closer to what inquisitors and sister use to link to their armour. Mjolnir is just a superficial link to their brain, but PA has multiple link to their brain, along with links into every primary system of the space marines body, very, very much unlike your Mjolnir armour. Seriously, I would sooner compare Mjolnir to Carapace armour.
4. Exactly what you just said: Imagining. You are Imagining. YOu admitted it, it is conjecture. And you still haven't shown me anything that puts astartes anywhere NEAR the strength demonstrated by Tu'shan when he bench pressed a land raider.
5. No, the kick would not have crumpled a land raider. It would have broken the Spartans foot. Strength-wise, it is like comparing a rhino (spartan) to an elephant (astartes). And when you get terminators involved, it is like comparing a rhino to the sand worms from Dune.
6. No, you are the fanboy. Literally every single point you have posted this entire thread have been very, very thoroughly rejected, and yet you still compare your light-weight guerrilla troops to the massive space marine. I do not like space marine, I do not play space marines. I am simply not blind to the fact that space marine can eat spartans for breakfast. Space marines kill enemies tougher than spartans by the dozen in 40k. Spartans wouldn't last a day against orks, or daemons, or even tau.
In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)
They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.
Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.
Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.
Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.
It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.
Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.
In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)
They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.
Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.
Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.
Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.
It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.
Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.
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I'am pretty sure the pulse rifle isn't that strong. Its simply that the authors of most black library books may be okay with making marines awesome but having them walk through enemy fire (like they can in the game) would be too much of a stretch to put into words. I don't know what a pusle rifle would do to a guardsman; turn them into mist? Its quite difficult to compare examples when the writers of books for both series are massively inconsistent and often don't relate at all to the actual game. Especially the Halo books, where Spartans. Are. Gods.
I think you're exaggerating with the lasgun. If it really could do that, then the marines would go the same way knights did in the 16th century once you had muskets that could be given to everyone. When does a lasgun blow up a dreadnought?
How it is not relevant? The only SPARTAN that manage to did something to end the war was Master Chief.
On the other hand... Ultramarines held defended Macragge and thus saving countless billions from Tyranids, Space Wolves help to defend Armageddon against Chaos, Blood Angels help defend Armageddon against Orks, Slamanders and Raven Guard offer assistance to every Imperial Commander in need of one, Black Tempalrs are on a crusades to help protect the Imperium against ravaging alien empires and rebellious planets.
Guess i'll have to quote myself:
verterdegete wrote:
You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions.
Brother Coa wrote:
Space Marines are WAY more credited then SPARTANS because they get the job done, unlike some people...
Space Marines are credited the way they are because they are GW's cash cow.
Brother Coa wrote:
This just goes to Space Marines as well, because even the finest Imperial Assassins have big trouble to kill even one Astartes. Case closed - thank you.
And you know that - how ? The only fluff source about this matter is the event when the Assassins Grand Master rebelled:
"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."
In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)
They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.
Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.
Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.
Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.
It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.
Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.
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I'am pretty sure the pulse rifle isn't that strong. Its simply that the authors of most black library books may be okay with making marines awesome but having them walk through enemy fire (like they can in the game) would be too much of a stretch to put into words. I don't know what a pusle rifle would do to a guardsman; turn them into mist? Its quite difficult to compare examples when the writers of books for both series are massively inconsistent and often don't relate at all to the actual game. Especially the Halo books, where Spartans. Are. Gods.
I think you're exaggerating with the lasgun. If it really could do that, then the marines would go the same way knights did in the 16th century once you had muskets that could be given to everyone. When does a lasgun blow up a dreadnought?
Pulse rifles can destroy vehicles. And they probably would have survived having pulse shots volleyed at them, but why would they risk damaging their armour when they can take cover? It is simply good tactics.
The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion
It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought
...is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)
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You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions.
that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.
And you know that - how ? The only fluff source about this matter is the event when the Assassins Grand Master rebelled:
"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."
Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.
And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.
Fair enough. I was writing some fanfiction and I always figured something like that would happen if an unarmoured human was shot by a pulse weapon. Lots of mist.
True, in the game we can't take cover AND an armour save. (Could you imagine? )
Ah I remember the dread bit, it only damaged the dreads hull enough for those death plants to pierce the thing because of the noise it made and were thus impaled. If I remember right.
Ghoust of Onyx has the most 40k like description of Spartans where 300 of them attack an entire covenant army in the open and kill thousands of them. They're described as killing elites, stealing their swords then throwing them away when spent to pick up more. Usually Spartan 2s are more cautious since they are a vital asset whilst marines are 'Space Mureens!! ' and fight like that all the time.
Also, if you look at whats str4, then would you say that a kroot is stronger than a spartan/elite/brute; a genestealer? Are you saying a SOB in power armour is the same as a Spartan? I doubt it. Its not unprecedented for aliens to have str4 without any armour aiding them so spartans, elites and brutes which are described as having beyond human strength would probably be in the same category as marines; if not stronger. I mean the chief can flip a tank over!
Then again, Titus was able to overpower the canons on an ork battleship
Totalwar1402 wrote:Fair enough. I was writing some fanfiction and I always figured something like that would happen if an unarmoured human was shot by a pulse weapon. Lots of mist.
True, in the game we can't take cover AND an armour save. (Could you imagine? )
Ah I remember the dread bit, it only damaged the dreads hull enough for those death plants to pierce the thing because of the noise it made and were thus impaled. If I remember right.
Yeah, it made a huge crack along the front of the dread. Enough that if that guardsman still had his gun, he might have been able to fire directly at the pilot of the dread.
Lasguns are a good weapon that does horrific damage to flesh, but it has poor penetration qualities(unless it is super charged, in which case it melts right through PA)
Its kinda the difference between a large low velocity round that just tears flesh apart, but is stopped by body armor because it isn't made for penetration.
The bolter solves this problem by having both an armor piercing tip and containing an explosive charge.
The Lasgun just has intense damage, but low penetration.
that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.
Thar's more likely because GW concentrates it's fluff on massive battles and encounters, rather than guerilla warfare.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.
Well, it's a known number of assassins - 100 of them.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.
You also have an example where it took an entire Deathwing team to hunt down one CSM.
that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.
Thar's more likely because GW concentrates it's fluff on massive battles and encounters, rather than guerilla warfare.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.
Well, it's a known number of assassins - 100 of them.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.
You also have an example where it took an entire Deathwing team to hunt down one CSM.
And we have the Tabletop rules...
1. Because when you have tyranids eating your planet guerrilla warfare does nothing. At all. Gaunts, which are worth ~a human in war, are fired as BULLETS by the more advanced bio-morphs.
2. For all we know it could have been 1 marine from each of the three chapters. It probably wasn't, but the variable number of marines makes this moot.
3. Entirely possible. This CSM could have been favoured by his gods, the deathwatch could have just wanted to send a full team to be certain. Either way, the example with the Luna Wolf was because the Eversor wasn't going to win.
I actually agree with the guy. The rules mean that an eversor has quite a good chance of killing a squad of marines. Also, a vindicare was able to kill the Primarch of the Night Lords, even though he knew his death was coming he still allowed it to happen and never bothered reforming his soul in the warp but the rifle was clearly powerful enough to do that. I haven't read Nemesis, but its probably because they took the view assasians are just regular people and therefor have to be weaker than astartes even if the rules contradict it. That breaks the norm that the game inflates the powers of stuff on the tabletop, since two assasians in CC would certainly be able to kill multiple marines. Another good example is Death cult assasians who easily have better equipment and stats than a marine.
But that seems a bit OT since the question is
marines vs spartans
Totalwar1402 wrote:Sisters of battle use the exact same weapons without much trouble, including storm bolters.
The weapons used by Sororitas, Guard, Imperial Navy personnel & other various humans are scaled down to fit a human hand. An Astartes would not be able to fit his power-armoured finger inside the trigger guard of a weapon scaled for human hands, whilst Astartes weapons are just so oversized a human can't use them comfortably. For example the bolter used by Sororitas is the Godwyn-De'az, which is essentially a Godwyn bolter but smaller so that Sororitas (and the few other humans who get their hands on one) can wield it comfortably.
1. Because when you have tyranids eating your planet guerrilla warfare does nothing. At all. Gaunts, which are worth ~a human in war, are fired as BULLETS by the more advanced bio-morphs.
So, you are saying that there is no guerilla warfare in 40k ?
im2randomghgh wrote:
2. For all we know it could have been 1 marine from each of the three chapters.
Or could be 3 full companies. Which is more likely, having in mind that they are storming an Assassins HQ, and that those same assassins previously killed the High Lords of Terra.
im2randomghgh wrote:
3. Entirely possible. This CSM could have been favoured by his gods, the deathwatch could have just wanted to send a full team to be certain. Either way, the example with the Luna Wolf was because the Eversor wasn't going to win.
The point was that you can't rely on these kind of sources. Every writer has his own vision of 40k (just as we do), and the "protagonist" side usually gets boosted in strength. (I haven't read the book though. I will comment it when i do.)
Totalwar1402 wrote:I actually agree with the guy. The rules mean that an eversor has quite a good chance of killing a squad of marines. Also, a vindicare was able to kill the Primarch of the Night Lords, even though he knew his death was coming he still allowed it to happen and never bothered reforming his soul in the warp but the rifle was clearly powerful enough to do that. I haven't read Nemesis, but its probably because they took the view assasians are just regular people and therefor have to be weaker than astartes even if the rules contradict it. That breaks the norm that the game inflates the powers of stuff on the tabletop, since two assasians in CC would certainly be able to kill multiple marines. Another good example is Death cult assasians who easily have better equipment and stats than a marine.
But that seems a bit OT since the question is
marines vs spartans
It was not a vindicaire, it was a callidus. A c'tan phase sword SHOULD be able to cut through just about anything because, y'know, c'tan phase sword.
And ofc they are better on the TT. IG commanders are multiple wounds characters, having more wounds than astartes or nobz, because otherwise it would be a rather boring game. It is a game mechanic. Plus, an eversor is unlikely to beat a squad of marines with a PF sarge even on the TT.
But if you try to bracket units. Think how strong a kroot is, str4 and a few capable (courage and honour REDQUALL) of wrestling a marine. Without any tech, without any biological augmentation per sae. Spartans are described as easily beyond the level of str associated with humans with the aliens being described as stronger. Its less apparent in the game because you're mostly fighting things more stronger than you. In the books when the chief does fight humans he literally pulverises them and thats without the aid of armour. Because halo games avoid gore this isn't represented like it would be in SPACE MARINE. A spartan probably could pick up a jackal/human one handed and slice it in two with his knife. But, Halo's not that sort of game so you simply hit them and some blood squirts out. Even a power armoured human, like a sister of battle, wouldn't be capable of doing something like that and are actually (though i disagree with it myself ) over-powered by regular humans in Faith and Fire despite wearing power armour. So Spartans really are in the same bracket as marines, being probably of equal strength.
Also, lasguns are still only str3 and references to them being weak are certainly more in evidence than in being able to kill marines. The Soul Drinkers novels are much in this vein with guard units being utterly massacred by marines with next to little impact being made by the guard. Remember an autogun is also just str3 and is equivalent to regular bullet weapons (even looking like an M-16). So, if we assume plasma and UNSC weapons are at that level it follows that others are much better. A sniper rifle would probably have rending, a missile launcher is a missile launcher and several covenant weapons would be particularly stronger.
In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)
They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.
No they aren't. You've misread the fluff.
A lasgun can remove a limb in a single shot on highest power. On this power setting, you get a few shots out of a full clip max. This has been confirmed time and again in books and fluff, not least of which was Storm of Iron as well as the IG codex itself. On the standard setting, they are roughly comparable to a modern assault rifle, but with considerably more reliable performances due to their rugged design.
Also, slightly off-topic question; why did you bother making this thread at all? It's clear you're fully intending to try and fight every point regardless of it's viability or the overestimation of your assertions, and are not interested in any real discussion or comparison.
Totalwar1402 wrote:But if you try to bracket units. Think how strong a kroot is, str4 and a few capable (courage and honour REDQUALL) of wrestling a marine. Without any tech, without any biological augmentation per sae. Spartans are described as easily beyond the level of str associated with humans with the aliens being described as stronger. Its less apparent in the game because you're mostly fighting things more stronger than you. In the books when the chief does fight humans he literally pulverises them and thats without the aid of armour. Because halo games avoid gore this isn't represented like it would be in SPACE MARINE. A spartan probably could pick up a jackal/human one handed and slice it in two with his knife. But, Halo's not that sort of game so you simply hit them and some blood squirts out. Even a power armoured human, like a sister of battle, wouldn't be capable of doing something like that and are actually (though i disagree with it myself ) over-powered by regular humans in Faith and Fire despite wearing power armour. So Spartans really are in the same bracket as marines, being probably of equal strength.
Also, lasguns are still only str3 and references to them being weak are certainly more in evidence than in being able to kill marines. The Soul Drinkers novels are much in this vein with guard units being utterly massacred by marines with next to little impact being made by the guard. Remember an autogun is also just str3 and is equivalent to regular bullet weapons (even looking like an M-16). So, if we assume plasma and UNSC weapons are at that level it follows that others are much better. A sniper rifle would probably have rending, a missile launcher is a missile launcher and several covenant weapons would be particularly stronger.
Kroot are a bad example. If they were to eat gretchin, they would get really weak, really fast. If they were to eat space marines, or if they were to eat ork nobz, they would get really strong, really fast. Kroot eating a bio titan? They would likely look like ogryns. Str4 would be their average, and also kroot are taller than elites OR space marines, and are enormously disproportionate for their weight/strength ratio so...
I'm still laughing at the whole Spartan blocking an energy sword with his rifle gak in the video, then people arguing the rifle is made to withstand plasma, while their armour isn't. Sorry, for me that is where the argument was lost for the Spartans.
Also, the numbers of surviving Space Marines to this day vs surviving Spartans is in the high thousands vs what, two? And don;t try the plot armour gak. We have Calgar, Draigo, Lysander, Azrael, Belial, Tiguirus, etc. Vs Master Chief and Noble 6 - oh, wait, 6 died in Reach. Plot armour FTW.
And that leads me onto another point. Reach. Massive losses for the Spartans, and they still lost Reach, nearly dooming mankind in the fething process. Epic fail in my books; At least the ultrasmurfs held Macragge vs the 'nids (The closest comparison I can think of).
Except this is about Spartan 2 not 3s there were around 30 on reach that are applicable to this argument and only 2-3 died there the rest are alive,books, or trapped,still alive, on the shield world onyx. So reach has no real place here.
And I've already pointed out why numbers of survivors doesn't matter
liquidjoshi wrote:I'm still laughing at the whole Spartan blocking an energy sword with his rifle gak in the video, then people arguing the rifle is made to withstand plasma, while their armour isn't. Sorry, for me that is where the argument was lost for the Spartans.
Also, the numbers of surviving Space Marines to this day vs surviving Spartans is in the high thousands vs what, two? And don;t try the plot armour gak. We have Calgar, Draigo, Lysander, Azrael, Belial, Tiguirus, etc. Vs Master Chief and Noble 6 - oh, wait, 6 died in Reach. Plot armour FTW.
And that leads me onto another point. Reach. Massive losses for the Spartans, and they still lost Reach, nearly dooming mankind in the fething process. Epic fail in my books; At least the ultrasmurfs held Macragge vs the 'nids (The closest comparison I can think of).
Well, the Imperium is dying, the marines glory days of the Great Crusade are long over, they're failing to keep the Empire together let alone expanding. Whole chapters have been wiped out or suffered huge losses. Scythes of the Emperor were annialated by the Tyranids and several others wiped out. The Crimson fists almost got destroyed. 300 Imp Fists got torn up by a necron army. And marines aren't protected by plot armour? Put a marine chapter in the same position as those at reach. Hundreds of enemy ships bombarding you from orbit with no means of stopping them glassing you. We know that even a regular bombardment is devastating, capable of levelling hive worlds with the level of firepower. If we were going with actual logic, all any army would need to do is appear from warp and then level the fortress monastry from orbit. Killing most marines instantly. Plot armour prevents this in all but exceptional cases such as with the Crimson fists where a stray missile detonates the munitions under the fortress. Despite the fact that an indescriminate bombardment by dozens of warships firing several hundred of these missiles would easily find a weak point just by law of averages. This is before you consider the more high tech races like Tau, eldar and necrons that could use guided munitions to crack weak points in the fortress. Likewise, a marine army would be killed on the ground. If one in ten guard have plasma guns then PA counts for nothing. etc etc etc. Marines also have plot armour.
Also a main, very important theme of all the Halo books is that the UNSC can beat the covenant on the ground. With the Spartans they actually continuously win these fights. The problem is that they are totally outclassed in terms of ships. The Covenant can simply glass human worlds and force them to withdraw.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:But if you try to bracket units. Think how strong a kroot is, str4 and a few capable (courage and honour REDQUALL) of wrestling a marine. Without any tech, without any biological augmentation per sae. Spartans are described as easily beyond the level of str associated with humans with the aliens being described as stronger. Its less apparent in the game because you're mostly fighting things more stronger than you. In the books when the chief does fight humans he literally pulverises them and thats without the aid of armour. Because halo games avoid gore this isn't represented like it would be in SPACE MARINE. A spartan probably could pick up a jackal/human one handed and slice it in two with his knife. But, Halo's not that sort of game so you simply hit them and some blood squirts out. Even a power armoured human, like a sister of battle, wouldn't be capable of doing something like that and are actually (though i disagree with it myself ) over-powered by regular humans in Faith and Fire despite wearing power armour. So Spartans really are in the same bracket as marines, being probably of equal strength.
Also, lasguns are still only str3 and references to them being weak are certainly more in evidence than in being able to kill marines. The Soul Drinkers novels are much in this vein with guard units being utterly massacred by marines with next to little impact being made by the guard. Remember an autogun is also just str3 and is equivalent to regular bullet weapons (even looking like an M-16). So, if we assume plasma and UNSC weapons are at that level it follows that others are much better. A sniper rifle would probably have rending, a missile launcher is a missile launcher and several covenant weapons would be particularly stronger.
Kroot are a bad example. If they were to eat gretchin, they would get really weak, really fast. If they were to eat space marines, or if they were to eat ork nobz, they would get really strong, really fast. Kroot eating a bio titan? They would likely look like ogryns. Str4 would be their average, and also kroot are taller than elites OR space marines, and are enormously disproportionate for their weight/strength ratio so...
Fine, genestealers. Nothing mechanical about them and they're actually grown from humans.
Fine, genestealers. Nothing mechanical about them and they're actually grown from humans.
No, not fine.
Kroot will not, under any circumstance eat any form of nid or any organism infected with nid DNA.
See : First Ciaphus Cain book, I forgot the title.
Fine, genestealers. Nothing mechanical about them and they're actually grown from humans.
No, not fine.
Kroot will not, under any circumstance eat any form of nid or any organism infected with nid DNA.
See : First Ciaphus Cain book, I forgot the title.
No, I was argueing about how Spartans should str4 because of what other non-marine things have str4. He dismissed Kroot as an example, so I cited genestealers.
If we're going to try to make any kind of comparison, here, then the FIRST thing we have to look at is what the primary sources (ie word-of-God from the creators, in this case Bungie and GW) actually say about the capabilities of the two forces. Right? Right. Both Black Library and the various Halo novels are usually sub-contracted out, and both are pretty inconsistent; the Halo novels tend to be a bit better than BL, but they're certainly not perfect.
So we did that already. We went through the official sources; the codex, the official Halo sourcebooks, etc. We did that pages ago. Not everything can be compared directly, so really we could only get solid information on the physical improvements that went into the SPARTANs and Space Marines bodies, and a little bit about the different armors. And guess what they told us?
They told us that SPARTANs have a lot of really, really cool stuff; bioenhancements that make them inhumanly strong, fast and perceptive, built-in AIs, automatic high-performance first aid systems, powerful high-tech equipment. They're damn good soldiers, easily capable of taking on a very large number of humans and winning.
And they also told us that Space Marines have all that and much, much more. This is the problem that the "SPARTANs are superstrong!" and "SPARTANs never miss!" and "SPARTANs are ninjas!" arguments are failing to understand; there is NOTHING, literally nothing at all, that tells us that SPARTANs are any better in any of these fields than Space Marines are, and a whole hell of a lot that tells us they're WORSE in most of them. This is a strictly comparative point, not an objective one; you can argue that Space Marines are as weak as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that SPARTANs, according to their own source materials, are weaker.
I'm just gonna quote myself here; yes, these are two long posts. You still might want to read them, since basically everything that anyone has said in this entire thread is dealt with in them. We're making a comparison, people; the answer to "Pssh, Space Marines just have plot armor, they aren't that good" is "Read the sources; they're a hell of a lot better than SPARTANs".
BeRzErKeR wrote:There is one ability which SPARTANS receive from their biological implants and Space Marines don't, directly; improved reflex action speed, due to faster neurotransmission. That is, indeed, an important advantage; although it should be noted that even in this area Space Marines aren't clearly behind, as they receive years of intense hypno-therapy and chemical conditioning which is designed to give them this very ability, along with many others. But let's leave that aside and focus only on the physical implants for now.
Space Marine biological improvements give them a host of OTHER advantages, which more than compensate. Here's a list, leaving out those that SPARTANS also possess, such as super-dense muscle, hardened bones, and enhanced eyesight; we'll assume that SPARTAN biotech and Space Marine biotech are equally efficient for the purpose of this discussion, so those enhancements that they both have we won't count on either side. Furthermore, we won't bother to mention those enhancements which Space Marines possess, but are not directly relevant to a combat scenario. The particular implant which provides each enhancement is also listed.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
-Increased blood supply and redundant circulatory organs, both increasing a Space Marine's strength and speed by supplying far more oxygen and nutrients to his muscles than a human (or SPARTAN) can, and allowing him to survive normally catastrophic damage to his original heart. (Secondary heart)
-Increased oxygen-carrying efficiency of blood, allowing a Space Marine to draw more energy from a given amount of oxygen than normal. (Haemastamen)
-Increased oxygen capacity due to additional lung volume, allowing Space Marines to function in environments too oxygen-poor for humans to survive. (Multi-lung)
-The ability to absorb oxygen from toxic environments without injury. This includes the ability to breathe and function normally underwater.(Multi-lung)
-The ability to form scar tissue within seconds after suffering an injury, preventing blood loss and infection from wounds. (Larraman's Organ)
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
-Protection against extreme temperatures and low-pressure environments, including limited protection even from vacuum. (Mucranoid, Melanochrome to some extent)
-Direct neural connection to the machine-spirit of their personal suit of power armor, essentially allowing them to react and move much more quickly and flexibly than is possible without such a connection. This is why Astartes power armor is personal; only one Space Marine can connect to a given suit in this manner, and it must be individually adapted to that particular Space Marine. (Black Carapace)
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
A SPARTAN has reinforced bones; a Space Marine has reinforced bones AND has grown them into a suit of bullet-proof plate armor around his internal organs, which makes him much more resistant to injury.
A SPARTAN has enhanced musculature; a Space Marine has enhanced musculature AND more efficient oxygen transfer AND more oxygen circulating overall, so unless you want to argue that the SPARTAN augmentation is by itself more effective than all of those put together (which you can't, since Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancement work identically) a Space Marine is much stronger than a SPARTAN, and faster as well.
A SPARTAN has enhanced eyesight; a Space Marine has enhanced eyesight AND improved hearing (over which can exercise conscious control to the point of selectively focusing on certain sounds) AND can find his enemies by smell alone, which means that he's nearly always going to be the ambusher rather than the ambushee.
In addition to all this a Space Marine can function normally in environments where a SPARTAN would quickly die; maneuver and remain indefinitely in places that a SPARTAN cannot either see into or fight in (such as deep underwater); fight without sleep, unimpaired, for an extended period (permitting him to keep the SPARTAN under continuous pressure until he started to make mistakes due to fatigue); and survive injuries that would kill a SPARTAN immediately, including flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma. A SPARTAN is less physically capable than a Space Marine in every aspect of warfare, and on top of that the average Space Marine will have literally decades of experience over any SPARTAN-II.
None of this is 'fanwank'. I haven't made any of this up, it comes straight from the Codex and official materials. I don't play Space Marines, and I don't particularly like it that they're so over the top and Mary Sue-ish, but I do mind your claim that noting the fact that Space Marines are ludicrously powerful even in comparison to other sci-fi supersoldiers somehow removes my objectivity.
And, by the way, here's a handy source where you can read up on and confirm all of this, if you like. All sourced straight to the Codex and easily confirmable, so yes, this is official.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines
BeRzErKeR, responding to Kaldor's arguments about the post just above wrote:
I'm not going to quote-cut your post; I'll just talk about your points in order. I'll bold each argument to make the wall o' text easier to section up.
First: improved lactate recovery versus better oxygenation. I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis.
The reason is twofold; first, that it's not clear that lactate even hinders muscle contraction; and second, that even if it is a hindrance, preventing muscle fibers from going anaerobic (through increased oxygenation), or even slowing down the process, is a much more efficient way of increasing effective strength and endurance.
This is a case where Bungee actually tripped themselves up, because they put a little too much real science in their pseudoscience; since the Halo games have come out there's been further research on muscle fatigue, and it's been discovered that lactate both hinders muscular activity (by lowering the sensitivity of certain contractile tissues to a particular calcium ion) and also aids muscular activity by increasing the amount of calcium which is present, as well as neutralizing the limiting effects of potassium buildup! That being so, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the net result is a hindrance, the benefit is still at least partially counteracting itself, and it certainly won't be very efficient.
Space Marines use a much more straightforward and efficient method; they simply pour more oxygen into the muscular tissue to allow it to respirw freely even while working hard. For one thing, that by itself prevents the production of practically all of the byproducts of muscular exertion, since they can only be produced in an anaerobic environment; and for another, aerobic respiration is about nineteen times more efficient than anaerobic. That means that the SPARTAN MEI proteins cut in too late; they slow down lactate buildup, yes, but by the time lactate buildup is occurring at any speed your muscle fibers have already run out of oxygen, and as a consequence are now requiring nineteen times as much energy input to do the same amount of work. The Space Marine implants, by contrast, are going to work much more efficiently simply because they're preventing an anaerobic environment from ever occurring in the muscle tissue; that means that a Space Marine is going to be using a lot less energy to exert the same amount of force as a SPARTAN, which translates to greater strength, greater speed, and greater endurance.
In short, the SPARTAN enhancement is cutting in after deterioration has started and then slowing down the rate at which it multiplies; the Space Marine enhancement begins working sooner and prevents deterioration from ever occurring, or at least begins counteracting it at an earlier point in the process. This means that, even if a SPARTAN and a Space Marine have exactly the same peak strength and speed, a Space Marine is going to remain at peak functionality for far longer, and when he does begin to suffer from fatigue the effects are going to appear more slowly, than the SPARTAN will.
Functioning in a low-oxygen environment; Fair enough, in most cases it wouldn't matter. Do note, however, that in combination with the ability to breathe in a poisonous atmosphere this means that in some circumstances SPARTANs would be sharply time-limited (by the amount of breathable air their armor contains) while Space Marines would not; for instance, if SPARTANS and Space Marines were fighting on a polluted industrial world or in the aftermath of a virus-bombing the Space Marines could safely breathe the air, and the SPARTANs couldn't. This is a decided increase in tactical flexibility for a space-going military force, and it is a great benefit in general; but I agree, assuming we're talking about the two forces meeting on an Earth-like world, it's not very important.
Immunity to toxins: In a face-to-face combat situation, effectively all this does is render chemical and biological weapons ineffective. Mustard gas won't bother Space Marines much, for instance, even if you can manage to get it inside their armor. But since the SPARTANs have never demonstrated the use of that kind of weapon, I agree, that can be left out of this comparison.
Larraman's Organ versus biofoam injectors: Here I'm going to disagree again, though only conditionally.
Biofoam injectors are specifically called out as a temporary, emergency measure; they hold things in place temporarily and stop bleeding. In a brief engagement, I agree; they're just as good as Larraman cells are as a short-term solution, so if a Space Marine and a SPARTAN are just going to fight for an hour and then part ways, this is a wash.
However, I think if Space Marines and SPARTANs were to be heavily engaged with each other for any length of time, the comparison would rapidly get worse for the SPARTANs. The difference is that Larraman's Organ does NOT provide temporary first aid, it allows for a rapid and permanent healing process to begin at once. Biofoam is a first-aid measure that you use to stabilize somebody before medevac can get there. It's specifically called out as such, in fact. Biofoam breaks down and becomes useless after a few hours; if you haven't gotten surgical treatment by that time you're just as badly off as you were originally, unless you apply ANOTHER dose of biofoam.
Larraman's Organ, by contrast, simply supercharges the body's natural healing process. It literally creates instant scar tissue; as long as a bone isn't broken or a vital organ isn't badly traumatized, the wound is basically healed by the Larraman cells. The seal created by Larraman cells is biologically identical to the Space Marine's own flesh; if a Space Marine suffers a flesh wound, even a deep and damaging one, Larraman's Organ scars it over and within seconds, it's as if the injury is weeks old. No, it isn't an immediate, full repair, but it goes much further than simply filling the gash with anti-bacterial foam. A SPARTAN who suffers a severe flesh wound has to get surgical aid within a few hours, or the foam will degrade and he'll be just as badly wounded as ever; a Space Marine who suffers a severe flesh wound will recover rapidly and without help, not even needing a re-application of Larraman cells. This is what I meant when I said Space Marines are capable of "flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma".
Over a campaign of days, weeks or months, the Space Marines would gain a definite advantage in this area. Either a SPARTAN or a Space Marine will need medical treatment for a very serious wound, but the Space Marines will recover much more easily from any wound that isn't life-threatening. They are going to recover rapidly and without outside aid; a SPARTAN who suffers a flesh wound, by contrast, is going to need specialized help (which will aggravate the wound again; surgery is always traumatic to at least some extent) and will have a longer recovery time afterwards before he's back to full effectiveness. So over any extended time period Larraman's Organ is far more effective as field medicine than biofoam is, and the advantage will continue to build upon itself as long as the fighting lasts.
And as a final point, Space Marine armor also includes first-aid provisions, which I would assume are designed to function in conjunction with Larraman's Organ, probably by providing reinforcement to wounds too big or too serious (either chunks of missing flesh or shattered bones) for the Organ to repair alone, and likely also injecting copious amounts of stimulants. If nothing else, biological regeneration + technological medical help > technological medical help alone.
Speed, agility and reaction time: I don't think either agility or speed is necessarily in favor of the SPARTANs.
Speed-wise, as I pointed out above, the differences between Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancements indicate that Space Marines have both greater muscular power AND longer endurance; a SPARTAN might beat a Space Marine in a sprint (though there isn't any evidence of that), but a long pursuit would certainly be won by the Space Marine, as he would be able to maintain high speed longer and with shorter rest periods. In combination with the effects of the Catalepsean Node, this means that Space Marines actually have significantly greater tactical mobility than SPARTANs.
In regards to agility and reaction time, as I pointed out, it's explicitly noted that Space Marines receive years of hypno-therapy and medical treatment designed to not only radically reduce their reaction time but also allow them a high degree of conscious control over their metabolisms and nervous systems. How that compares in effectiveness to the biotech modification that SPARTANs receive to their neural system, we simply don't know, but to discount it entirely doesn't seem reasonable. Furthermore, the connection provided by the Black Carapace to power armor is just as powerful as the Spartan Neural Interface (as it's described in almost exactly the same way), and all Astartes power armor apparently contains its own machine spirit/AI, which due to the Black Carapace can essentially read the Space Marine's mind and react with no delay at all to his desires. All this means that power armor does not slow the Space Marine down in the slightest; rather the 'muscles' of the armor will make him both faster and stronger, just as MJOLNIR armor does for SPARTANs.
MJOLNIR armor does seem to provide more flexibility and a wider range of motion; however, it necessarily accomplishes that by incorporating less actual armor, and so almost certainly provides less protection over certain areas. The chest and upper arms are the specific areas I'm thinking of, since for Space Marines they're protected by that very thick barrel-chest and MASSIVE PAULDRONS OF DOOM, which also serve double-duty by partially blocking line of fire to the Space Marines head from some angles.
Ossified ribcage: You say that "but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard", but I don't think that's true. The extra layer of bone will render some kinds of weapons entirely ineffective and force specific tactical decisions in order to penetrate it; and do please remember that this isn't bone as we know it. This is bone with the empty, latticework spaces filled with a ceramic armor compound, of the kind we use on main battle tanks.
Consider; the type of weapons that go through armor well are not actually the type of weapons that are very effective at killing people. If you want to cause a lot of damage to a person you use a fat, blunt, relatively slow round, which will shatter, tumble or simply expand inside the body and thus widen the channel it carves through flesh. That's why hollow-point rounds, which 'mushroom' after penetration, are sometimes called 'cop-killer' bullets; they're the most efficient way to cause the most damage possible to a human body.
The kind of bullet that punches through armor, by contrast, is a narrow, sharply-pointed round fired at the highest practical velocity. That's how you punch through a hard surface. However, that kind of bullet has a tendency to travel right through a person without actually doing much harm; it flies in a straight line, often without tumbling or being significantly deflected, and cuts a small, neat hole in one side and out the other. Low-caliber, high-velocity modern rifles often have this problem. They can get through modern body armor, but they don't have the stopping power to reliably disable the target.
The extra layer of armor that a Space Marine's ribcage forms thus creates a very difficult problem. If you're shooting at the center of mass, you first have to punch through the thickest part of the armor; that's going to take a round with very good penetration. You then have to punch through the ribs as well, which means you need a VERY high-velocity, small, needle-pointed round. . . but that bullet probably won't do lethal damage. And a Space Marine, even more than a human, is not going to be stopped by anything short of very serious trauma. Furthermore, even if you DO manage to punch a shot through and destroy some important organ, the Space Marine is still functional, because all those implants don't merely increase his physical performance, they also provide redundant copies of every vital organ that's behind that bone shield.
What all this means, in combination with the flesh-wound neutralizing effects of Larraman's Organ, is that in order for the basic ballistic weapons of the SPARTANs to inflict any serious damage at all they basically have to hit the groin or the head. Yes, SPARTANs are great shots, but their effective target area has now been radically reduced in size and limited to some of the most erratically-moving parts of the body; not to mention, Space Marines are extremely good shots themselves. The Space Marine can be fairly confident that wherever he's placing his bolter shells, they will do damage, even though against MJOLNIR armor it may well require multiple hits; effectively, this makes a Space Marine much less likely to be severely injured or killed by a SPARTAN than the SPARTAN is to be injured or killed by him.
So, in conclusion: Halo is trying to use pseudo-science to sound at least barely plausible to modern listeners, while 40k just goes ahead and flat-out tells us that Space Marines are t3h best!!!!1!
When you compare the two, a SPARTAN is a very tough, very fast, very skilled soldier with tremendous strength and extremely high-tech weaponry and armor, allowing him to accomplish things that no normal human could ever do and live through things that would kill any normal human.
A Space Marine is all that, with a bag of chips. He possesses superior strength, speed, and endurance, is nearly unkillable and capable of recovering rapidly from practically anything that DOES have a chance at killing him, not to mention he's been brainwashed and tortured for years until he's a psychotic killing machine that cares nothing for fear or pain. He has conscious control over his normally-unconscious bodily functions; which means, among other things, that he can flood his own system with adrenaline at will. On top of everything else, he can also go for up to two weeks without sleeping at all, and if he wants to sleep he can do so while simultaneously standing guard. He's the classic super-soldier but turned up to eleven, and then he tore the knob off and ate it, because he can do THAT too.
Fine, genestealers. Nothing mechanical about them and they're actually grown from humans.
No, not fine.
Kroot will not, under any circumstance eat any form of nid or any organism infected with nid DNA.
See : First Ciaphus Cain book, I forgot the title.
No, I was argueing about how Spartans should str4 because of what other non-marine things have str4. He dismissed Kroot as an example, so I cited genestealers.
This is just a hypothetical banter, not an attempt to objectively find some elusive truth and cast the arguement into Oblivion. I'am not going to read several dozen pages of stuff, just to post in whats a fairly trivial topic. If you don't like the discussion being listed on the topics then you don't have to read it. Since you've came to your own conclusion then it doesn't make much sense why you would come on. Myself, I'am snowed in right now and waiting for a TV show to come on so its a neat way to pass the time and a change of pace from sisters of battle topics. Again, its general discussion for a reason, not a serious debate in the sense you're making out with a clear ansawr. You make out as if I'am wasting your time in some way , but its your call if you want to respond to something and not mine.
p.s the Halo books are a thousand times more removed from the games than Black Library. They are the biggest pile of nonesense ever written. When I lent them off a friend they did nothing but consistently annoy me with the Spartans are awesome. Ghousts of Onyx being by far the worst culprit.
But i guess GW would probably press a lawsuit like they always do...
Nah Mate, Draigo and Ash Williams.
Both badass demon hunters who get screwed around by demons, and then proceed to introduce the creepy gits to the business end of a shotgun/bolter
This is just a hypothetical banter, not an attempt to objectively find some elusive truth and cast the arguement into Oblivion. I'am not going to read several dozen pages of stuff, just to post in whats a fairly trivial topic. If you don't like the discussion being listed on the topics then you don't have to read it. Since you've came to your own conclusion then it doesn't make much sense why you would come on. Myself, I'am snowed in right now and waiting for a TV show to come on so its a neat way to pass the time and a change of pace from sisters of battle topics. Again, its general discussion for a reason, not a serious debate in the sense you're making out with a clear ansawr. You make out as if I'am wasting your time in some way , but its your call if you want to respond to something and not mine.
p.s the Halo books are a thousand times more removed from the games than Black Library. They are the biggest pile of nonesense ever written. When I lent them off a friend they did nothing but consistently annoy me with the Spartans are awesome. Ghousts of Onyx being by far the worst culprit.
I'm happy with hypothetical banter! I very much enjoy the kinds of debates where you can speculate freely.
What I was getting a little irritated at was not the discussion in general, but rather people making the exact same arguments that have already been answered over, and over, and over, and over. C'mon, these are two totally fictional and wildly-inconsistent universes! People don't NEED to make claims that can be easily answered like these ones, there are an infinite number of others that can be considered! So don't just keep repeating the extremely limited list of actually falsifiable arguments, come up with some others.
For instance; what I've shown up there is that if we assume SPARTAN and Space Marine implants to be of roughly equivalent effectiveness, the Space Marines win by a landslide. So, is there any evidence somewhere that one or more of those improvements AREN'T equal? Since both SPARTAN and Space Marine muscles are both enhanced by HGH, that one's probably about the same, but what about, say, the eyesight enhancements? Are there any places in Halo fiction where it talks about how keen a SPARTANs eyesight is, and can we compare that to Space Marines in some more-or-less objective way?
verterdegete wrote:
"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."
And then there is the table top...
TT rules are not addressed to the fluff directly, if that was the case lone Guardsman can bayonet down entire squad of FW... TT rules are to balance the game, they are not = as fluff.
And another example is Assassin who killed Kurze, she fight against one Night Lord Astartes and barely kill it. ANd several others form comics and novels, if they have trouble to kill Space Marine then SPARTANS should have even bigger.
Brother Coa wrote: Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
Yes, it's accurate. But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat. How many Marines have died in combat? How does that stack up now?
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.
I just have one question, Kaldor.
Did you read that great big wall o' text I posted earlier? Because, as I pointed out then, you're wrong.
If you don't want to look back through the thread for it, I'd be happy to quote it for you.
I did, and responded to it
im2randomghgh wrote:
1. You're missing the point that if their bodies can supply more oxygen to their arms than they can spend, is remains aerobic. If they cannot, than that means Space Marines are using power on a level unthinkable by Spartans. It really wouldn't be unchanged at all. Their capacity would be easily 300-400% greater than a Space Marine sans the multi lung and second heart.
Take some more biology classes and call me back. You're missing a clear understanding of muscle function.
2. No, it really, really wasn't gaping. And yes, the larraman cells would stop it. You seem to drastically underestimate what their capable of. Anything that can cause a marine to bleed, can be stopped by Larraman cells. You forget that they are literally demi-gods.
Yes, it was gaping, and no, Larraman cells do not provide sufficient protection to prevent explosive decompression in a hard vacuum.
3. No, Mjolnir doesn't do that. The link the have to mjolnir is closer to what inquisitors and sister use to link to their armour. Mjolnir is just a superficial link to their brain, but PA has multiple link to their brain, along with links into every primary system of the space marines body, very, very much unlike your Mjolnir armour. Seriously, I would sooner compare Mjolnir to Carapace armour.
A neural link is a neural link is a neural link. If a persons brain is fully connected to something, then that thing is a part of them.
See, this is why you're a fanboy. Because you assume that the Astartes neural link, somehow, is better than the Spartan neural link, but completely fail to come up with an supporting arguments for that. Some as Astartes strength, agility, or any other damn thing. You just keep banging on about the same points no matter how many times they get shot down, and ignoring any points made by anyone else that contradict you. Bench pressing a landraider? Spartans regularly flip Scorpion tanks. Bazinga.
LIterally demi-gods? And you think youre not the fanboy? Gimme a break.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Ok, this has actually gotten kind of irritating.
If we're going to try to make any kind of comparison, here, then the FIRST thing we have to look at is what the primary sources (ie word-of-God from the creators, in this case Bungie and GW) actually say about the capabilities of the two forces. Right? Right. Both Black Library and the various Halo novels are usually sub-contracted out, and both are pretty inconsistent; the Halo novels tend to be a bit better than BL, but they're certainly not perfect.
So we did that already. We went through the official sources; the codex, the official Halo sourcebooks, etc. We did that pages ago. Not everything can be compared directly, so really we could only get solid information on the physical improvements that went into the SPARTANs and Space Marines bodies, and a little bit about the different armors. And guess what they told us?
They told us that SPARTANs have a lot of really, really cool stuff; bioenhancements that make them inhumanly strong, fast and perceptive, built-in AIs, automatic high-performance first aid systems, powerful high-tech equipment. They're damn good soldiers, easily capable of taking on a very large number of humans and winning.
And they also told us that Space Marines have all that and much, much more. This is the problem that the "SPARTANs are superstrong!" and "SPARTANs never miss!" and "SPARTANs are ninjas!" arguments are failing to understand; there is NOTHING, literally nothing at all, that tells us that SPARTANs are any better in any of these fields than Space Marines are, and a whole hell of a lot that tells us they're WORSE in most of them. This is a strictly comparative point, not an objective one; you can argue that Space Marines are as weak as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that SPARTANs, according to their own source materials, are weaker.
I'm just gonna quote myself here; yes, these are two long posts. You still might want to read them, since basically everything that anyone has said in this entire thread is dealt with in them. We're making a comparison, people; the answer to "Pssh, Space Marines just have plot armor, they aren't that good" is "Read the sources; they're a hell of a lot better than SPARTANs".
verterdegete wrote:
"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."
And then there is the table top...
TT rules are not addressed to the fluff directly, if that was the case lone Guardsman can bayonet down entire squad of FW... TT rules are to balance the game, they are not = as fluff.
And another example is Assassin who killed Kurze, she fight against one Night Lord Astartes and barely kill it. ANd several others form comics and novels, if they have trouble to kill Space Marine then SPARTANS should have even bigger.
The night lord actually ended up killing her too, eh?
And BeRzErKeR, I think you nailed the whole issue on the head, bravo!
Brother Coa wrote: Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
Yes, it's accurate. But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat. How many Marines have died in combat? How does that stack up now?
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.
I just have one question, Kaldor.
Did you read that great big wall o' text I posted earlier? Because, as I pointed out then, you're wrong.
If you don't want to look back through the thread for it, I'd be happy to quote it for you.
I did, and responded to it
im2randomghgh wrote:
1. You're missing the point that if their bodies can supply more oxygen to their arms than they can spend, is remains aerobic. If they cannot, than that means Space Marines are using power on a level unthinkable by Spartans. It really wouldn't be unchanged at all. Their capacity would be easily 300-400% greater than a Space Marine sans the multi lung and second heart.
Take some more biology classes and call me back. You're missing a clear understanding of muscle function.
2. No, it really, really wasn't gaping. And yes, the larraman cells would stop it. You seem to drastically underestimate what their capable of. Anything that can cause a marine to bleed, can be stopped by Larraman cells. You forget that they are literally demi-gods.
Yes, it was gaping, and no, Larraman cells do not provide sufficient protection to prevent explosive decompression in a hard vacuum.
3. No, Mjolnir doesn't do that. The link the have to mjolnir is closer to what inquisitors and sister use to link to their armour. Mjolnir is just a superficial link to their brain, but PA has multiple link to their brain, along with links into every primary system of the space marines body, very, very much unlike your Mjolnir armour. Seriously, I would sooner compare Mjolnir to Carapace armour.
A neural link is a neural link is a neural link. If a persons brain is fully connected to something, then that thing is a part of them.
See, this is why you're a fanboy. Because you assume that the Astartes neural link, somehow, is better than the Spartan neural link, but completely fail to come up with an supporting arguments for that. Some as Astartes strength, agility, or any other damn thing. You just keep banging on about the same points no matter how many times they get shot down, and ignoring any points made by anyone else that contradict you. Bench pressing a landraider? Spartans regularly flip Scorpion tanks. Bazinga.
LIterally demi-gods? And you think youre not the fanboy? Gimme a break.
1. That moment when you realize and ork WAAAGH! could likely steamroll the entire UNSC, tell me when you get it.
3. Did you READ what BeRzErKeR posted? Like, at all? And I have two biology credits, one exercise science credit and am currently taking kinesiology at U of T.
The rest: The spartan interface Links to the brain as thoroughly as the PA would, that is true. But it is simulates movement with the spartan's body. PA links into their mind, but linking into their physical body would allow for a much closer bond, and with ports linking directly into the spartans body, making the term "cyborg" apply to them. The link spartans have is most likely the same as the one Sister of battle have with their armour, though I hope you realize I am not trying to discount the thoroughness of the spartan neural interface, it is simply that astartes seem to have been written as supersoldiers specifically designed to put other supersoldiers to shame.
And you fail to come up with supporting evidence that states that spartan neural interface is as powerful as that astartes have. I have yet to hear about spartans doing things like "blink-clicking", though I admit that might be my memory failing me as I read the Halo books 2 yrs ago.
Some as Astartes strength, agility, or any other damn thing. You just keep banging on about the same points no matter how many times they get shot down, and ignoring any points made by anyone else that contradict you.
The way you ignore everything BeRzErKeR says? he is coming up with ironclad arguments that are actually very proper and conservative. And they assume all the augmentation they have is exactly equal too.
And scorpions are 6000kgs lighter than a land raider, and spartans do that standing up, so likely with their hands under and they stand up and push, using almost every muscle in their body, whereas Tu'shan used benchpress which uses two muscles almost exclusively-pectorals and triceps.
And yes, literally demi-gods. The God-Emperor of man's DNA is inside them, making them part god.
Brother Coa wrote: Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
Yes, it's accurate. But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat. How many Marines have died in combat? How does that stack up now?
Its not the numbers, its the Percentages.
What % of Spartens have died in combat compared to what their deaths gained?
vs
What % of Marines have died compared to what their deaths gained?
Marines average a couple hundred years in their chapter's service and the Imperium has stood for 10,000 years because of the valor of the Space Marines.
The SPARTANs were almost completely annhilated and they still lost that fight.
A casuality rate in the high 90s is BAD, especiallty when you don't have anything to show for it.
the Ultramarines suffered around 30% casualities in the Battle for Maccragge, the invasion was stopped, and the Hive Fleet was scattered. Not only that, but vital information was gleened about the Tyranid threat.
TT rules are not addressed to the fluff directly, if that was the case lone Guardsman can bayonet down entire squad of FW... TT rules are to balance the game, they are not = as fluff.
And another example is Assassin who killed Kurze, she fight against one Night Lord Astartes and barely kill it. ANd several others form comics and novels, if they have trouble to kill Space Marine then SPARTANS should have even bigger.
TT rules are decent enough to give a good picture of how units perform in general against each other. And to be fair now, that Night Lord Astartes isn't a regular marine. He is a very powerful CSM sergeant, with precognitive powers.
The way i reason it goes like this: If the Imperium sends them on missions to kill space marines, powerful eldar, daemon princes, and even primarchs, and if on the TT a Callidus assassin (for example) has the abilty to kill Daemon Princes, defilers, Farseers or whipe out a small unit of assault marines - i can expect that an average Assassin can take out an averageSM.
Also, i don's see why would it be impossible for a lone IG to bayonet down an entire squad of FW's. That lone IG could be Sly Marbo, for example, before he got famous.
verterdegete wrote:
"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."
And then there is the table top...
TT rules are not addressed to the fluff directly, if that was the case lone Guardsman can bayonet down entire squad of FW... TT rules are to balance the game, they are not = as fluff.
And another example is Assassin who killed Kurze, she fight against one Night Lord Astartes and barely kill it. ANd several others form comics and novels, if they have trouble to kill Space Marine then SPARTANS should have even bigger.
The night lord actually ended up killing her too, eh?
And BeRzErKeR, I think you nailed the whole issue on the head, bravo!
Yet you guys used Halo's fall damage to illustrate Spartan's weakness.
Brother Coa wrote: Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
Yes, it's accurate. But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat. How many Marines have died in combat? How does that stack up now?
Its not the numbers, its the Percentages.
What % of Spartens have died in combat compared to what their deaths gained?
vs
What % of Marines have died compared to what their deaths gained?
Marines average a couple hundred years in their chapter's service and the Imperium has stood for 10,000 years because of the valor of the Space Marines.
The SPARTANs were almost completely annhilated and they still lost that fight.
A casuality rate in the high 90s is BAD, especiallty when you don't have anything to show for it.
the Ultramarines suffered around 30% casualities in the Battle for Maccragge, the invasion was stopped, and the Hive Fleet was scattered. Not only that, but vital information was gleened about the Tyranid threat.
Well, if that's the case than the spartan contribution on Reach was as equal, if not more important.
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LunaHound wrote:
Yet you guys used Halo's fall damage to illustrate Spartan's weakness.
Double standards.
Which is funny having in mind the MC's epic fall at the beginning of Halo 3.
PS: MC isn't the last spartan II. I know of at least three more that are alive.
TT rules are not addressed to the fluff directly, if that was the case lone Guardsman can bayonet down entire squad of FW... TT rules are to balance the game, they are not = as fluff.
And another example is Assassin who killed Kurze, she fight against one Night Lord Astartes and barely kill it. ANd several others form comics and novels, if they have trouble to kill Space Marine then SPARTANS should have even bigger.
TT rules are decent enough to give a good picture of how units perform in general against each other. And to be fair now, that Night Lord Astartes isn't a regular marine. He is a very powerful CSM sergeant, with precognitive powers.
The way i reason it goes like this: If the Imperium sends them on missions to kill space marines, powerful eldar, daemon princes, and even primarchs, and if on the TT a Callidus assassin (for example) has the abilty to kill Daemon Princes, defilers, Farseers or whipe out a small unit of assault marines - i can expect that an average Assassin can take out an averageSM.
Also, i don's see why would it be impossible for a lone IG to bayonet down an entire squad of FW's. That lone IG could be Sly Marbo, for example, before he got famous.
That night lord's precognitive powers were not used in the fight, and other than that he was simply a sergeant at the time. Now he's a leader of a warband with a relic blade.
And also, the assassin sent after Kruze was the single best assassin the officio had.
I thought the only reason a spartan could flip a tank was due to game balance.
Also some people seem to underestimate the Bolter. A Heavy Stubber is said ti equal a heavy machine gun. So a .50 cal. Now a bolter is the same str. Better penetration.
Flak armor is capible of stopping a .50cal round. Carapace is even better. So Imperial Armor is vastly supieror to unsc's armor.
Brother Coa wrote: Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.
Yes, it's accurate. But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat. How many Marines have died in combat? How does that stack up now?
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.
Ok, Ultramarines lost around 3 companies on Macragge but the enemy they face would made Covenant like a little bug in comparison to elephant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
The night lord actually ended up killing her too, eh?
After chasing her over the half of the galaxy...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
verterdegete wrote:
TT rules are decent enough to give a good picture of how units perform in general against each other. And to be fair now, that Night Lord Astartes isn't a regular marine. He is a very powerful CSM sergeant, with precognitive powers.
If that was the truth then Marines would be utterly useless. In lore then can take hundreds if not thousands of foes before they lay down dead. On table they not as poweruf as in fluff, no army is. And that CSM was not Sergeant but ordinary Astartes, she fought the Sergeant later I believe.
The way i reason it goes like this: If the Imperium sends them on missions to kill space marines, powerful eldar, daemon princes, and even primarchs, and if on the TT a Callidus assassin (for example) has the abilty to kill Daemon Princes, defilers, Farseers or whipe out a small unit of assault marines - i can expect that an average Assassin can take out an averageSM.
Astartes are still superior to them but they can kill it if they get him off guard.
Also, i don's see why would it be impossible for a lone IG to bayonet down an entire squad of FW's. That lone IG could be Sly Marbo, for example, before he got famous.
This was regular Cadian Guardsman, they charge from 12" to the Tau FW squad. Only he survived to them ( pass morale test and dice were good toward him ) and he melee them down to the last.
In fluff 2x more Tallarn Guardsman do the same - they all got cut down long before they reach the Tau lines.
Quick comment on the extent of MJOLNIR neural link; it is given in the Manual for Halo: CE IIRC and in the Fall of Reach book that the Spartans literally only have to think to make the suit move. Halsey directly commands the Chief to only "think" about moving his arm to his chest the first time he used the suit and viola, it worked. Part of the reason why the first non-augmented marine to test the armor got pulverized. The marine did so, and the armor moved so fast it broke his arm and so of course the automatic instinct was to move his other arm to grab it and so on and so forth until his neural reactions forced the armor to tear him apart. Quite painful to visualize, but I actually enjoyed that bit in the novel... Kinda creepy now that I think about it...
@Brother Coa Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.
Ok, Ultramarines lost around 3 companies on Macragge but the enemy they face would made Covenant like a little bug in comparison to elephant.
But it only demonstrats that 32 Spartans have died in combat
Also don't forget that not all of them died, even though there were only 30 or so on the planet in the first place. A good number went underground and got out after the events of Halo: CE, but since the UNSC essentially deserted Reach after the fight nobody was waiting to pick them up. Much of the Chief's own team, in fact, was not immediately KIA and managed to get away with Halsey. I kinda wonder what happened to Jun now. Hmm...
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In fluff 2x more Tallarn Guardsman do the same - they all got cut down long before they reach the Tau lines.
Riveting as it may be, I still don't really understand the Rough Riders. Men. On horses. NORMAL horses. With SPEARS. Cool factor, definitely. Sense? It still makes little to me. At least the Thunderwolf Calvary for the Space Wolves are literally SPACE wolves
That night lord's precognitive powers were not used in the fight, and other than that he was simply a sergeant at the time. Now he's a leader of a warband with a relic blade.
And also, the assassin sent after Kruze was the single best assassin the officio had.
And he was one of the best people Konrad Curze had, a part of his inner circle.
Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.
You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.
Brother Coa wrote:
In fluff 2x more Tallarn Guardsman do the same - they all got cut down long before they reach the Tau lines.
In fluff, a handful of IG can ambush and kill a group of CSM.
In fluff, dozens of Black Legioners charge in and die like flies, mowed down by a handful of Smurf rookies .
Everything is possible and justifiable in fluff.
So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.
soundwave591 wrote:Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's
verterdegete wrote:
So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.
Oriented on yes, but not take it literally.
On Vraks entire Krieg Stormtrooper squad fire at Khorne Bezerker and hotshot shots just bounce of his armor and he butcher them all after that.
Gaunt kill one in close combat duel ( but Gaunt is a Gaunt, not every Guardsman is Gaunt ).
TT rules are utmost there to balance the fights so that 2000 point Space Marine army had the same chance to win as 2000 point Tyranid army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
verterdegete wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.
You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.
And it is fair for Astartes?
They are also vastly outnumbered by everyone. And have foes that are as powerful as that they can annihilate entire army's in a matter of minutes.
Marines are much tougher and better then SPARTANS. Because they are trained to be warriors, live longer, have more devastating weaponry, excel in close combat, have far grater genetic enchantments, have psychic powers and most important unshaken faith in their father the Emperor.
SPARTANS are more like Guardsman in Space Marine armor, the only thing they have better is their advanced armor suit that can be used to drop from ship in orbit, hit a planet with high speeds and rise up unscratched. They also have shields and neural interface. But other then that they have nothing on Astartes.
Ok, this is rapidly turning from a nerdy "vs." discussion, into a 4th grader's "Batman is stronger than Bananaman cuz he's awesome" dickometry. I'm not going to push this any further.
That night lord's precognitive powers were not used in the fight, and other than that he was simply a sergeant at the time. Now he's a leader of a warband with a relic blade.
And also, the assassin sent after Kruze was the single best assassin the officio had.
And he was one of the best people Konrad Curze had, a part of his inner circle.
A line apothecary. He was one of Curze's favourites because of his precognitive powers, which weren't used in the fight. He took the assassin apart piece by piece.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yipyioh wrote:Quick comment on the extent of MJOLNIR neural link; it is given in the Manual for Halo: CE IIRC and in the Fall of Reach book that the Spartans literally only have to think to make the suit move. Halsey directly commands the Chief to only "think" about moving his arm to his chest the first time he used the suit and viola, it worked. Part of the reason why the first non-augmented marine to test the armor got pulverized. The marine did so, and the armor moved so fast it broke his arm and so of course the automatic instinct was to move his other arm to grab it and so on and so forth until his neural reactions forced the armor to tear him apart. Quite painful to visualize, but I actually enjoyed that bit in the novel... Kinda creepy now that I think about it...
That's also how modern bionics work. There are types of new bionics where you just need to touch it, and that is enough to let you move it with your thoughts. You don't need a neural interface to do that.
SOOOOOOO MUCH RAGE !!!!!!!! and yeah i'd say fluff wise due to over-hyping the marines up 3-4 spartans and thats not bad considering there is possible 1 million marines (in the codexes it says roughly 1000 chapters so 1000 X 1000 if my maths is correct is 1000000 )
Also marines get unbelievably stupid help ( legion of the damned ) (the sanguinor) and don't forget the ever loved LAST STAND taking on millions of lesser foes only to leave the marines dead and only a handful of enemy's remaining.
I reckon (and this is only my oppinion) that it is safe to say a 3-4 spartans dead per 1 marine.
soundwave591 wrote:Who are the UNSCs enemy's? I'm how about the flood EEG close to nids in my opinion, and they exterminated them with only 1 Spartan 2, a single one, not three company's
verterdegete wrote:
So we can't just say that unit A is stronger than unit B just because unit A kills unit B in Black Library pulp fiction novel no: 453. Imho, TT rules are a great source for that because they establish a standard on which you can orient on.
Oriented on yes, but not take it literally.
On Vraks entire Krieg Stormtrooper squad fire at Khorne Bezerker and hotshot shots just bounce of his armor and he butcher them all after that.
Gaunt kill one in close combat duel ( but Gaunt is a Gaunt, not every Guardsman is Gaunt ).
TT rules are utmost there to balance the fights so that 2000 point Space Marine army had the same chance to win as 2000 point Tyranid army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
verterdegete wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Who are foes of Space Marines and who are foes of SPARTANS.
You can't just put it like that. Spartans are surrounded on a planet, by an enemy that is ridiculously superior in numbers and in technology.
And it is fair for Astartes?
They are also vastly outnumbered by everyone. And have foes that are as powerful as that they can annihilate entire army's in a matter of minutes.
Marines are much tougher and better then SPARTANS. Because they are trained to be warriors, live longer, have more devastating weaponry, excel in close combat, have far grater genetic enchantments, have psychic powers and most important unshaken faith in their father the Emperor.
SPARTANS are more like Guardsman in Space Marine armor, the only thing they have better is their advanced armor suit that can be used to drop from ship in orbit, hit a planet with high speeds and rise up unscratched. They also have shields and neural interface. But other then that they have nothing on Astartes.
^Also, @what brother Coa said, the spartans don't always emerge unscathed. In one of the books, they dropped form a pelican (not space) and half of them died.
rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?
Without a gun or CCW and with both arms tied behind his back, with a blindfold on.
A Grey Knight (don't remember if he wore power or terminator armour) in a short story in a White Dwarf was overwhelmed and killed by zombies.
ARe you sure your not making that up?
Plus the grey knight might of been overwhelmed by nurgle infused zombies. Which are not zombies. They are worst than the flood. You can't kill them they are worst than flood.
At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?
Without a gun or CCW and with both arms tied behind his back, with a blindfold on.
A Grey Knight (don't remember if he wore power or terminator armour) in a short story in a White Dwarf was overwhelmed and killed by zombies.
ARe you sure your not making that up?
Plus the grey knight might of been overwhelmed by nurgle infused zombies. Which are not zombies. They are worst than the flood. You can't kill them they are worst than flood.
The only zombies in 40k are the Nurgle kind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
And I never posted any number of spartans that were ridiculous.
And I agree that spartans are elite and all, but other than spartan lasers, what do they have that can actually hurt marines? If the spartans had bolters and chainswords 2-3 would be a reasonable amount to kill a tac marine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And fine, let's come up with a specific scenario, or rather two.
A scout squad consisting of 4 scouts w/ camo cloaks and a sergeant, half armed with sniper rifles, half armed with bolters, sergeant with a plasma pistol and power weapon.
AGAINST
5 Spartan-IIs, armed with DMR's and Assault rifles, their team leader armed with a plasma sword and a halo plasma pistol.
And for the second one, a tactical squad of space marine, all with the standard Bolter+pistol+CCW, their special weapons are a plasma gun and a Missile launcher, and their sergeant has plasma gun and a power weapon.
AGAINST
10 Spartan-IIs, 4 with BR55s, 4 with Assault rifles, 1 with spartan laser, their team leader with a plasma sword.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.
As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.
As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.
Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.
And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.
Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion
They also have magazines of 150 shots, they can put out so much damage going full auto with magazines of 150...the only reason they aren't the final word on warfare is that all the other guns in wh40k are ridiculously massive and everything is super tough in the setting.
Imperial Munitorum Manual (Background Book) wrote: They have longer range and higher ammunition capacity than a Laspistol (the laspistol power packs having roughly 80 shots before depletion, compared to roughly 150 shots for a lasgun)
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.
As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.
Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.
And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.
Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion
Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.
As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.
Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.
And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.
Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion
Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.
It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
It probably is.
At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
It probably is.
At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.
And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
It probably is.
At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.
And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.
It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
It probably is.
At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.
And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.
It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them
True true, but all it takes is that one shot that disrupts their concentration on holding their energy in check and BOOOM.
im2randomghgh wrote:It hasn't been retconned, and a rulebook's fluff trumps BL in terms of Canonicity, though at the same time everybody has their view of the canon.
And remember, this is 40k, there are fluff discrepancies all the time.
Plus, there are number marks of lasgun and there is the range-power issue you brought up not long ago.
True enough, and I would agree, there's a hell of a lot that gets mixed up.
The range was pretty close, incidentally. If I recall correctly, though the shot wasn't quite point-blank, it was still within about four metres of the target. In this case, I think it was the standard pattern, the one with a variable power setting. I forget it's name, but it's listed in the Inquisitor sourcebook.
It probably is.
At the same time, in Scourge the Heretic, a PDF trooper blasted a daemon at close range and it was enough to banish it, and I believe this daemon had just bitch-slapped an inquisitor into submission.
And there lies the problem with 40K.
Although, to be fair to the PDF trooper, a daemon isn't invulnerable to small-arms of even our standard. Maybe he just got damn lucky; it happens, now and again.
It would really take a hell of a lot of NATO rounds to fell a daemon, considering trauma to their organs isn't something that would bother them
True true, but all it takes is that one shot that disrupts their concentration on holding their energy in check and BOOOM.
Break their concentration with some dancing daemonettes
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:At the end of the day, OP created a thread that he thought he knew the answers to and expected everyone to agree with him (the fact that you did not open the thread with an even statement of such proves that, pal) and then made bad arguments as to why SM would beat unreasonable amounts of SPARTANS in fights, up to and including the ludicrous assumption that lasguns were equivalent to a .50 cal (they're not) and thus a boltgun must be the equivalent of a grenade launcher (it isn't.)
Ultimately, my original estimate still stands. 2-3 SPARTAN-IIs per Tactical Marine, max, and that's with the marine being heavily wounded in the process.
Okay then, for the lasguns, what would be the closest modern equivalent that can fire a several hundred rounds per minute, arm-removing, flesh exploding (yes, it causes the area it hits to explode) weapon that doesn't need to account for the Coriolis effect or gravity?
Easy. A particularly strong assault rifle, as the lasgun only does the things you state it does on it's highest setting, a setting so damaging to the gun that it gets around 5 or so shots before the battery burns out.
For the most part, a lasgun relies on tissue damage to kill it's victim, as it actually cauterises the areas hit, being a laser weapon - and no, explosions from being hit with las-weaponry do not happen, or at least not in any fluff that I have ever read, which describe burns. Unless you can cite a specific incident in which a lasgun explodes flesh, then I will refer repeatedly to the wounds described in Storm of Iron - burns due to laser impact - and the Ultramarines omnibus, which again describe burning wounds - and incidentally, show conclusively that your assertion of the uselessness of Spartan weaponry is incorrect, as marines are wounded by several autoguns during them as well as killed outright by shots to weak points on their armour.
As to the coriolis effect, yes, lasguns don't have to account for that. What limits their range, then? Why, the energy being sapped from the photons as they travel through the air. Put simply, the longer those photons travel, the weaker they become. That is why a lasgun has a finite range.
Yes, I understand the fact that lasguns don't have infinite range.
And no, lasguns don't just do that on their highest setting, they do that on their standard setting. On their highest setting, they would pierce through most armours, including, as I cited earlier, dreadnought armour, though that setting destroys the gun after one use.
Rulebook 3ed pg. 61 wrote:The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion
Again, that is incorrect. Standard setting lasguns, in everything I have ever read, do not do the same damage as a .50 cal. There is one scene in particular (the first Ultramarines novel) where an unarmoured civilian is shot directly in the shoulder by one, and it causes a wound similar to a bullet from a standard assault rifle. It does not remove that man's arm. Later, a Judge's armour is compromised by several lasgun shots, one after the other; rather than tearing him apart, as shots of the power you're describing would indeed do if used against compromised armour, the judge still has time to reach a detonator before his wounds overcome him. Also, given that the fluff I've cited is both more numerous and more recent, I think we can assume that 3rd ed descriptions are not as reliable as they once were in terms of information.
Lasguns are quite capable of the horrific damage im2randomgh describes, but they falter against any type of body armor. And since just about everything in 40k is either insanely tough and/or wears armor the lasgun gets mitigated.
Against unarmored flesh the lasgun will blow arms off from the super heating of water, but if it has to burn through a layer of armor first and is set on a lower setting then it won't do quite that much damage.
Lasguns are generally kept on lower settings because they are still fairly effective and they need to conserve ammo. I garuntee that if any modern military had a energy based weapon with variable power setting the general order would be to conserve your shots. You can't exactly do that with kinetic weapons.
Basically, the books don't show exploding limbs because the power is either set too low for that to be obvious OR when the power is set high they are shooting an armored target(exploding water vapor isn't going to blow a Space Marine helmet out so you will literally only see the hole go in and the marine go down with some super heated fluids escape out the entry wound)
Lasguns are quite capable of the horrific damage im2randomgh describes, but they falter against any type of body armor. And since just about everything in 40k is either insanely tough and/or wears armor the lasgun gets mitigated.
Against unarmored flesh the lasgun will blow arms off from the super heating of water, but if it has to burn through a layer of armor first and is set on a lower setting then it won't do quite that much damage.
Lasguns are generally kept on lower settings because they are still fairly effective and they need to conserve ammo. I garuntee that if any modern military had a energy based weapon with variable power setting the general order would be to conserve your shots. You can't exactly do that with kinetic weapons.
Basically, the books don't show exploding limbs because the power is either set too low for that to be obvious OR when the power is set high they are shooting an armored target(exploding water vapor isn't going to blow a Space Marine helmet out so you will literally only see the hole go in and the marine go down with some super heated fluids escape out the entry wound)
That was what I was arguing, if you re-read my post. I was stating that lasguns don't do that kind of damage on standard setting, and that the higher settings burn out the lasgun battery too quickly to be effective as a standard mode.
Can't this thread, and all threads like these, be ended with this? Warhammer 40k is extremely over the top, everything is designed to be über-powerful. Halo on the other hand, is designed to be more "realistic". No sci-fi universe can stand up to 40k simply because of it's sheer OOT (except Supreme Commander perhaps, that one is actually even more OOT).
Well in the stairwell leading up to the Warhammer World museum there is a 'scale' mural of a Space Marine with the height given as 7'. However it depends which bit of background you read and by whom. Marines seem to be inbetween 7' & 9' depending on the source.
I personally interpret 8'6'' being a reasonable size for them to a) tower over humans and b) be smaller than the Primarchs. When it comes to Astartes I love the idea of them being abnormally huge, hulking, earth-shaking angels of death - 7' is a little underwhelming I think, considering that the average Imperial male citizen is 6' tall? Can't recall source for this though so I may be wrong.
If anything, howeveer, GW have proven that old fluff can and will be rewritten (*cough* Ollanius Pius *cough*) so perhaps 7' will be their old size in old GW40k stuff (back when it was more of a joke), but now?
The one thing that always gets me about these discussions is how they always seem to come at it from a frame of reference assuming the Sci-fi Fantasy is the dominant genre in the discussion rather than the MilSciFi. And this is why these discussions always fail:
a) 40k fluff is wildly inconsistent because it is hard to tell what is and isn't canon after 25 years. Back in RT you may have been able to make a case for a matchup between Spartans and Marines because the latter used to be more MilSciFi-based (along with a smattering of Imperial Sardaukar). But now it would be like asking who would win in a fight between Gilgamesh and a Green Berret. The genre gap is too wide to fathom. It is the same reason you would have troubles with a Mobile Infantry vs. Space Marines argument as well. Because MI are MilSciFi and just lack the reference points to compare to Sci Fi Fantasy or Space Opera stuff.
b) Linked to above the very different assumptions of each genre play havoc when applying rules from one to the other. In Space Opera it is common to have a juggernaut in armour that cannot be harmed by small-arms fire. In MilSciFi you are not safe and even an insurgent with a slug rifle could end your life despite the suit of power armour and all the tech you have. Even a Cap Trooper learns how to throw a knife in Starship Troopers. So applying mortality rules from 40k to Halo and vice versa will be doomed to fail. For example, the bolter, converted to MilSciFi would probably be about the same as a Spartan BR55 which uses a 9.5X40 armour piercing/explosive slug. At most, since marines are in heavy power armour it would be like a SAW but on every basic trooper. It is important to remember that different genres play by different rules and that this can make it really hard to play the "vs. game".
c) People love to short-sell the other side. It mostly comes about because of unfamiliarity with the other source material of course. But this is moot because when you are comparing different genres even knowing the source material on each side can lead you astray because its like trying to compare two things with different inherent laws of physics.
For an example of 40k thrust in to a MilSciFi frame of reference there is a silly short story written from the eyes of a grunt in the Stargrunt II universe facing down a squad of Space Marines. They are tough and capable but have this odd idea that they don't need cover and are soon cut apart when they get pinned out in the open. Because moving non-genre-appropriate things in to the wrong genre and not changing their behaviour and tropes to fit will often leave them looking silly.
That is why people keep on getting hung up on LOLbolter and LOLpowerarmour because in Space Opera you can have stuff that works like that and seems reasonable. But in MilSciFi everything is deadly so a Spartan with an assault rifle or a battle rifle is still a walking god of death even though he isn't lugging a .75 gyroc cannon around (though the battle rifle compares pretty well to being the MilSciFi bolter equivalent due to the dual-purpose ammo and the three-shot burst mode).
So yeah, needless to say I can't see anything coming out of the discussion, especially since the inherent bias of the forum already has most coming at it from the frame of reference of the Warhammer-verse and the genre tropes therein. If we were to convert Spartans and Space Marines in to a MilSciFi system like Tomorrow's War and Stargrunt II I can assure you that things would look fairly different, especially if the Marines didn't change their tactics to suit the genre.
So I'd suggest finding more genre appropriate foes to fight. With 40k being more along the Space Opera side of things you could probably make a case for other high power universes like The Culture or the Total Annhilation universe. In the case of Halo I'd love to see a comparative look at them and the human military from Old Man's War instead. Soldiers trained from childhood and augmented into super-human killers vs. 100 year olds given new bodies with superhuman abilities. Much more interesting matchups in my mind (though the IoM vs. the Culture would probably be pretty short all things considered; more interesting would be how Contact would bend the Imperium to being another vassal state of the Culture).
Marzillius wrote:Can't this thread, and all threads like these, be ended with this? Warhammer 40k is extremely over the top, everything is designed to be über-powerful. Halo on the other hand, is designed to be more "realistic". No sci-fi universe can stand up to 40k simply because of it's sheer OOT (except Supreme Commander perhaps, that one is actually even more OOT).
But how else can the boys in puberty get a epeen boost?
Jes later admitted he messed up the scale for that marine drawing.
"Towering over other humans" might have led him to saying 7' was a good height because no one in the GW headquarters is over 5'4" and they don't realize that there are lots of people 6' and over in the world. 7' isn't even odd to see.
Kaldor wrote:Berzerker, I do still plan on replying to your post when I find the time, you make some interesting points!
Great! Yeah, it's a massive chunk of text, I don't blame you for taking some time. . . I just got started looking things up and then bam, suddenly it's been two hours.
But ok, lets run with it. What proof do you have that cortana would be able to analyze this weapon with absolutely no data. Sure, they could just mess around with it for half an hour, but then, Cortana isn't the one analyzing it, is she 
And don't bring up anything about analyzing covenant ship weapon systems and then making upgrades, in that case she was plugged into the actual computer, getting any data directly rather than having to go get it herself. A completely different scenario. Also, I think we have established that in this fight, it will be a bog standard Spartan, not the 
' and fight like that all the time.
Nothing mechanical about them and they're actually grown from humans.
