A Space Marine could kill at least 5-6 before getting killed, thats if we are talking basic equipment. if no one has any weapons, just armor, then the Spartens are boned.
im2randomghgh wrote:I know this topic has been done before, but how many Spartan IIs do you think a space marine could kill, or vice versa?
I would guess quite a lot because Spartan weaponry is considerably weaker than lasguns even and bolters could more than likely one shot them.
Thoughts?
Okay, so you're saying this topic has been done before and yet you start it up anyway, and then you say that Spartan weaponry is decidedly weaker altogether and a bolter could one shot them. You already know the answer, so why even bother?
Not sure why the standard assault rifle would be "far weaker than a lasgun". It would be roughly equal to an autogun, which in game terms is equal to a lasgun. No, it is not as destructive as a bolter, but don't sell it short.
As far as 'who would kill who', it very much depends on what we are talking about. Just the two of them locked in a room with no place ti hide or escape, I would say a marine would kill 3-4 spartans, possibly being heavily wounded in the process. Yes, his armor can shrug of most damage, but it has weaknesses, even being pierced by pointy sticks in some cases. A bullet or combat knife into the soft joints will do some damage. In a one-on-one situation this would be very unlikely, but in facing multiple opponents, even the most skilled combatant will be left open to being flanked or attacked from behind.
In a more realistic scenario, say, the two forces dropped onto some random planet, tactical marines will have no end of trouble with spartans. The reason is because spartans are more willimg to use actual tactics. They are more likely to use camo, set ambushes, etc. In this scenario, scouts would probably have an easier time fighting them than tacs would.
A spartan laser is basically a lascannon, so if the Spartans brought one of those, the Marine would be screwed.
Considering Spartan armor can withstand stuff like plasma grenades (not sticky'd), I think their shields could withstand one or two bolter shots before going down.
Overall, though, it'd probably take around four Spartans for every Marine.
A UNSC marine can take a few bullets to the chest, and live. Lasguns rip off limbs in the fluff.
A spartens shield is negated by a sniper rifle. Which iirc are .50cal rounds. Meaning the shield is penetrated by heavy stubbers, ditto for the armor. Bolters have more penetrating power then the heavy stubber.
ashrog wrote:
As far as 'who would kill who', it very much depends on what we are talking about. Just the two of them locked in a room with no place ti hide or escape, I would say a marine would kill 3-4 spartans, possibly being heavily wounded in the process. Yes, his armor can shrug of most damage, but it has weaknesses, even being pierced by pointy sticks in some cases. A bullet or combat knife into the soft joints will do some damage. In a one-on-one situation this would be very unlikely, but in facing multiple opponents, even the most skilled combatant will be left open to being flanked or attacked from behind.
In a more realistic scenario, say, the two forces dropped onto some random planet, tactical marines will have no end of trouble with spartans. The reason is because spartans are more willimg to use actual tactics. They are more likely to use camo, set ambushes, etc. In this scenario, scouts would probably have an easier time fighting them than tacs would.
The smartest answer so far.
This is why:
People consistently undersell the abilites of the SPARTAN-II soldiers when this debate crops up, and usually in a big way, too. The biggest incorrect assumption: Spartans are NOT that much weaker than an SM. In fact, according to ancilliary fluff for the Halo universe, their respective strength levels are virtually indistinguishable, with both a Marine and a Spartan able to flip, say, a Scorpion Tank with relative ease.
The main advantages the Space Marine possesses over his opponent are his equipment (to an extent) and the multiple redundancy of some of his vital organs. Put simply, Power Armour is a significantly better exoskeleton system than MJOLNIR armour, as it is made of more resistant material and even without a shield generator has been shown to be resistent to many energy-based weapons, such as T'au weaponry. MJOLNIR does not have that same strength; it's protective abilities come from it's use of a personal shield, which essentially works as you'd expect a force-field to. Again, power armour is better, but not that much better; MJOLNIR grants a far faster speed of movement than it's SM counterpart as shown by the book "Fall of Reach" and it's sequels, and indeed is more stealthy; it makes nothing like the level of the noise a suit of Power Armour does when moving.
The weapons is an obvious answer; the boltgun is mightier than the autogun counterpart, even if that autogun is being dual-wielded by a superman.
Then of course we have the Marine's sheer survivability. You have to do one hell of a lot of damage to an SM before he gets even close to dying, and though SPARTAN-IIs are by no means pushovers (their bones are essentially unbreakable, and their muscles hypercondensened as well as expanded in size, which explains the equal levels of strength despite size differences between the two fighters) they are simply not able to take the same level of punishment as a Marine can and keep fighting. A marine can lose a heart; Spartans can't.
In conclusion to this long and overly detailed nerdy-ass essay, I would say that, while a SM would most likely win a one-on-one fight with a SPARTAN-II, it would not be without taking some very serious injuries in the process, and possibly even dying themselves in the attempt. At most, I'd say a single SM could take on 2 SPARTAN-IIs, 3 at the utmost, and still expect a chance of victory that's greater than 50%.
Depends on weapons, but I'll assume the basics here; bolter, grenades and PA for the Space Marine, battle rifle, magnum and frags for the SPARTANs.
Space Marine and an arbitrary number of SPARTANS dropped into an inescapable box; Space Marine beats up SPARTANS with his bolter-butt and hands for quite some time, eventually being rendered incapable of motion by repeated shots to the joints of his power armor and subsequently executed gangland-style. SPARTAN kills: Lots and lots.
Space Marine and SPARTAN facing each other across an open plain; Space Marine hammers the SPARTAN down with bolter shells, taking minor injuries from accurate but largely-ineffective return fire. Two SPARTANs would inflict a great deal more damage by flanking him, but the lack of cover still spells their doom; if there are three, the third one might manage to bring the Space Marine down or at least cripple him. SPARTAN kills: At least one, more likely two or three. Four would really be pushing it.
Space Marine force facing a SPARTAN force of equal size in mixed terrain; Space Marines sweep the area in combat squads, and either drive the SPARTANs out of cover to be cut down in the open or force them to engage in close-quarters. In either case the Space Marines will come out on top, but a cunning SPARTAN commander would likely be able to inflict pretty heavy casualties. Certainly, the fight would be much more brutal than fighting against Guardsmen. SPARTAN kills; on average, 1-2 per Space Marine, with the percentage of the Space Marine force that's lost hard to guess. Likely not less than 1/3rd.
Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
Ok here's my point of view on it, 2 squads of 10 in mixed terrain with hills and such( so 10 spartans and 10 spess mahreens) Both sides have 1 special weapon and heavy weapon. SO a spartan laser and something else they feel fit for the mission. The space marines have a missile launcher and something they feel fit.
The space marines march through the mixed terrain using their armour for protection and using their shock and awe tactic, they would get raped. First fo all they have to get clsoe to spartans to do damage yet the spartans guns are good at long range and each shot that spartan laser get's off is one space marine dead.
Yes I;m a bit biased on this conversation but I;m sick of the nerds coming on and going my spess mahreens are toally awesome and can curbstomp all, yeh go spess mahreens! For the emperor!
So conclusion the spartans win because they ain;t cocky like the space marines and have tactics that they will see fit to out manouver the spess mahreens.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just adding I;ve hated all the halo's since 1 except odst which I found quite good, the rest are awful.
The strength levels would be enormously different.
Spartans are strong enough to flip vehicles, yes, but space marines, in addition to having more mass to throw around, have shown much greater strength. For one thing they move just as quickly as spartans, except they do it while wearing massive multiple inch thick ceramite armour, as oppose to the spartans armour which looks like it would lend itself to guerrila warfare and reconnaissance.
Also, a .50cal sniper bypassing Spartan shields means a .75 caliber armour piercing warhead would just devastate them. Also, there really isn't that much about spartans making them that much tougher than humans other than equipment, because they are shorter than marines, and really only have height, reflexes, skeleton and musculature enhanced, not lungs, not heart, no bone plate, they cannot spit acid, they don't have skin that is for all intents and purposes immune to small arms that aren't lasers or better etc.
Also, spartan laser is not a lascannon equivalent. Scorpion light tanks can survive more than one hit form them in most of the Halo games. Light tanks. That means they are the equivalent of AV11-12. Check it out on the halo.wikia.com page if you don't believe me about that part.
The M808B is considered "light" by standard definitions but has served as the UNSC's main battle tank well before the Human-Covenant war
Also, They would have literally zero means of fighting terminators. They can only kill hunters because of the massive areas of exposed "flesh" which is not present of termies, and termies and hunters are very close equivalents.
Also, space marine PA would be as tough as hunter armour. The heavy weaponry mounted on Crisis suits was shown to be insufficient to pierce the pauldron of a white scar in savage scars.
Even heavy bolters have been shown to be incapable of piercing marine armour and they are 1.00 caliber.
Marines also have centuries of experience, better training, auto-targeting suites in the armour and have all kinds of biological advantages. I'd wager that spartans wouldn't be able to hurt marines without heavy weapons or energy swords, and energy swords still wouldn't work too well for them because they're training and experience in h2h would be nothing like marine-CC is what they do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ninja13 wrote:Ok here's my point of view on it, 2 squads of 10 in mixed terrain with hills and such( so 10 spartans and 10 spess mahreens) Both sides have 1 special weapon and heavy weapon. SO a spartan laser and something else they feel fit for the mission. The space marines have a missile launcher and something they feel fit.
The space marines march through the mixed terrain using their armour for protection and using their shock and awe tactic, they would get raped. First fo all they have to get clsoe to spartans to do damage yet the spartans guns are good at long range and each shot that spartan laser get's off is one space marine dead.
Yes I;m a bit biased on this conversation but I;m sick of the nerds coming on and going my spess mahreens are toally awesome and can curbstomp all, yeh go spess mahreens! For the emperor!
So conclusion the spartans win because they ain;t cocky like the space marines and have tactics that they will see fit to out manouver the spess mahreens.
For one thing we have no evidence a spartan laser could one shot a marine. For another, that is assuming they hit every shot, for another spartan lasers have four shots, for another the rest of the spartan weapons would do gak against PA.
Spartans are elite in the sense that they're mobile, but really that isn't gonna help you avoid a bolt, especially not with marine marksmanship. The marines on the other hand have plasma cannons which could take out multiple spartans per shot.
TBH I think a better comparison would be Stormtroopers versus Spartans, especially armour wise.
im2randomghgh wrote:The strength levels would be enormously different.
Spartans are strong enough to flip vehicles, yes, but space marines, in addition to having more mass to throw around, have shown much greater strength. For one thing they move just as quickly as spartans, except they do it while wearing massive multiple inch thick ceramite armour, as oppose to the spartans armour which looks like it would lend itself to guerrila warfare and reconnaissance.
Sorry, pal, but you're waaaaay off. In terms of mass, the two are far more similar than you might believe by looking at them; the SPARTAN-IIs muscles are actually much denser, which is why they're able to compare easily to SM in terms of strength. Both, for example, can flip a Scorpion Tank. In addition, you don't state just how SM show greater strength; you'll have to give examples. In addition, both suits enhance the strength of the wearer, though ironically this does not actually grant the SM an advantage as much as might be believed, as a lot of this enhanced strength merely combats the weight of the armour they wear.
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
That would be pretty young even for a scout.
Think about Bjorn and his 10,000 yrs experience, or Dante's 1200, or Lysander's 700 etc.
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
That would be pretty young even for a scout.
Think about Bjorn and his 10,000 yrs experience, or Dante's 1200, or Lysander's 700 etc.
Those are noted as being exceptional in their lifespans, and should not be taken as the average age an SM reaches.
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
That would be pretty young even for a scout.
Think about Bjorn and his 10,000 yrs experience, or Dante's 1200, or Lysander's 700 etc.
Those are noted as being exceptional in their lifespans, and should not be taken as the average age an SM reaches.
45 is exceptional in master chief. Almost every spartan died on Reach. And the Spartan-III were just treated as expendable.
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
That would be pretty young even for a scout.
Think about Bjorn and his 10,000 yrs experience, or Dante's 1200, or Lysander's 700 etc.
Those are noted as being exceptional in their lifespans, and should not be taken as the average age an SM reaches.
45 is exceptional in master chief. Almost every spartan died on Reach. And the Spartan-III were just treated as expendable.
Again, how do you know that 45 years of age is exceptional?
Also, almost every SPARTAN-II died on Reach due to near-impossible odds, in the same manner that certain SM chapters have been rendered extinct. Even a superhuman army can't hold out against a near-limitless horde.
Furthermore, SPARTAN-IIIs are irrelevant in this discussion, as the OP specifically mentions SPARTAN-IIs
acekevin8412 wrote:Ignoring the shielding from MJOLNIR, I think a more fair comparison would be Scouts vs Spartan-IIs. They are both fairly young, if I remember correctly, the Spartans-IIs were kidnapped as children and enhanced in a similar way to Scouts. This also removes the near-broken strength of Power Armour.
Actually, the Master Chief is around 45, I think. Though I guess that's young for a Space Marine.
That would be pretty young even for a scout.
Think about Bjorn and his 10,000 yrs experience, or Dante's 1200, or Lysander's 700 etc.
Those are noted as being exceptional in their lifespans, and should not be taken as the average age an SM reaches.
45 is exceptional in master chief. Almost every spartan died on Reach. And the Spartan-III were just treated as expendable.
Again, how do you know that 45 years of age is exceptional?
Also, almost every SPARTAN-II died on Reach due to near-impossible odds, in the same manner that certain SM chapters have been rendered extinct. Even a superhuman army can't hold out against a near-limitless horde.
Furthermore, SPARTAN-IIIs are irrelevant in this discussion, as the OP specifically mentions SPARTAN-IIs
It's exceptional in that he, and maybe one or two others were the only spartans to reach 45 years of age. The ages of those heroes of the Imperium are only exceptional because going to battle constantly means you risk dying. If they were, say, gardener or janitors, they would all simply continue to live indefinitely.
Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
The fact that they are not as survivable as Spess Mahreens in warfare.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
The fact that they are not as survivable as Spess Mahreens in warfare.
Well, that's pretty vague. Also, kinda unfair to them a bit; they didn't really have much of a chance to get more than a handful of IIs completed before their only homeworld was attacked, wiping them out almost completely. It'd be like if Terra was attacked just before the Emperor had finished gathering the legions and could leave to conquer the nuts off of the known galaxy; a far different fight than the one at the end of the Horus Heresy, for example.
Still, that's life.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
The fact that they are not as survivable as Spess Mahreens in warfare.
Well, that's pretty vague. Also, kinda unfair to them a bit; they didn't really have much of a chance to get more than a handful of IIs completed before their only homeworld was attacked, wiping them out almost completely. It'd be like if Terra was attacked just before the Emperor had finished gathering the legions and could leave to conquer the nuts off of the known galaxy; a far different fight than the one at the end of the Horus Heresy, for example.
Still, that's life.
Well they had like 40 something Spartan IIs, and one of them lived to 45, and shows no signs that he will continue living indefinitely. That's like an 97.5% mortality rate, in what basically amounts to one battle. Astartes don't die that easily, or else the great crusade would have failed miserably.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
The fact that they are not as survivable as Spess Mahreens in warfare.
Well, that's pretty vague. Also, kinda unfair to them a bit; they didn't really have much of a chance to get more than a handful of IIs completed before their only homeworld was attacked, wiping them out almost completely. It'd be like if Terra was attacked just before the Emperor had finished gathering the legions and could leave to conquer the nuts off of the known galaxy; a far different fight than the one at the end of the Horus Heresy, for example.
Still, that's life.
Well they had like 40 something Spartan IIs, and one of them lived to 45, and shows no signs that he will continue living indefinitely. That's like an 97.5% mortality rate, in what basically amounts to one battle. Astartes don't die that easily, or else the great crusade would have failed miserably.
40something SPARTANS against a huge army, the size of which would make even the Imperium think "hmmm, could be a tricky one?" Yeah, it's no wonder they were wiped out. The same would happen to SMs, and yes, there is plenty of fluff to support that idea.
I'm pretty sure that a SPARTAN would never go head to head with a Marine, and are more likely to ambush and pick-and-choose their battles... And they wouldn't choose to go head-to-head with an 8 foot tall killing machine armed with an automatic RPG launcher,
One-on-one, Space-marines win, without any hassle.
As the numbers increase, the tables may turn a bit as Spartan IIs are smaller and can hide with ease similar to that of a guardsmen (even more closely to a kasrkin). Spartan IIIs may even be better off as they can hide even easier and their suits' power-signatures are harder to detect (something the IoM would probably know about). In increments of 100~200, I think Spartans begin to see an advantage, especially if they are Spartan IIIs.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Is that due to their biological enhancements, the fact that they live a dangerous lifestyle, or the fact that the SPARTAN-II program itself never saw forty years of age before the Covenant came to Reach, thus putting the program out of action permanently?
The fact that they are not as survivable as Spess Mahreens in warfare.
Well, that's pretty vague. Also, kinda unfair to them a bit; they didn't really have much of a chance to get more than a handful of IIs completed before their only homeworld was attacked, wiping them out almost completely. It'd be like if Terra was attacked just before the Emperor had finished gathering the legions and could leave to conquer the nuts off of the known galaxy; a far different fight than the one at the end of the Horus Heresy, for example.
Still, that's life.
Well they had like 40 something Spartan IIs, and one of them lived to 45, and shows no signs that he will continue living indefinitely. That's like an 97.5% mortality rate, in what basically amounts to one battle. Astartes don't die that easily, or else the great crusade would have failed miserably.
40something SPARTANS against a huge army, the size of which would make even the Imperium think "hmmm, could be a tricky one?" Yeah, it's no wonder they were wiped out. The same would happen to SMs, and yes, there is plenty of fluff to support that idea.
Not really. That army was much, much smaller than most of the things the Imperium fights. An ork WAAAGH! for example would be much, much bigger.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squidmanlolz wrote:One-on-one, Space-marines win, without any hassle.
As the numbers increase, the tables may turn a bit as Spartan IIs are smaller and can hide with ease similar to that of a guardsmen (even more closely to a kasrkin). Spartan IIIs may even be better off as they can hide even easier and their suits' power-signatures are harder to detect (something the IoM would probably know about). In increments of 100~200, I think Spartans begin to see an advantage, especially if they are Spartan IIIs.
At the same time though, two hundred space marines is a force to conquer entire systems. And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
At the same time though, two hundred space marines is a force to conquer entire systems. And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
The UNSC had some nifty cloaking devices, SPI armor was just about undetectable no matter what type of energy/radiation you are looking for. It does however sacrifice a lot of armor value.
Edit: Also, note the operation: Prometheus, where 300 Spartan IIIs all but defeated one of the largest deployments of Covenant ever seen by humans (numbering in the thousands) the Spartans lasted seven days of full assault, accomplishing their mission against all odds. (remember these are Spartan IIIs, a lot weaker than Spartan IIs at face value)
The Covenant was a VAST army. And had some nifty tech, all their weapons were plasma based and didn't kill the user. So we are talking an army of plasma rifle totting religious fanatics that a single SPARTAN pretty much took out single handedly.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Covenant was a VAST army. And had some nifty tech, all their weapons were plasma based and didn't kill the user. So we are talking an army of plasma rifle totting religious fanatics that a single SPARTAN pretty much took out single handedly.
You are very correct, by 40k standards neither the humans nor the Covenant held considerable amounts of space. However the Covenant emipire made the humans feel like Tau looking into the eye of the Imperium. There were amazing odds faced against all of humanity and realistically (all, good story-telling aside) IRL the Covenant would probably win.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Covenant was a VAST army. And had some nifty tech, all their weapons were plasma based and didn't kill the user. So we are talking an army of plasma rifle totting religious fanatics that a single SPARTAN pretty much took out single handedly.
You are very correct, by 40k standards neither the humans nor the Covenant held considerable amounts of space. However the Covenant emipire made the humans feel like Tau looking into the eye of the Imperium. There were amazing odds faced against all of humanity and realistically (all, good story-telling aside) IRL the Covenant would probably win.
Yeah, John is pretty much the last word in "Mary Sue" ... Draigo is nothing compared to this BAMF.
Considering that the poorly equiped UNSC managed to fight the covenant on almost equal terms on the ground, shows that the much better equiped Imperial Guard will dominate them. And that the main gun of a UNSC will take out a covcrusier, the Imperial Navy will dominate space. So no, the IoM will laugh at the.Covenant, even the Tau would laugh at them.
I believe the Tau actually hold more space than the Covenant did. The Covenant only ever claimed about 1/3~1/4 of our arm of the milky way. Humans had much less, only securing planets that were relatively close to Earth due to their primitive space travel.
Does anyone feel like comparing the size of empires between the two universes, I'm far too tired?
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Covenant was a VAST army. And had some nifty tech, all their weapons were plasma based and didn't kill the user. So we are talking an army of plasma rifle totting religious fanatics that a single SPARTAN pretty much took out single handedly.
You are very correct, by 40k standards neither the humans nor the Covenant held considerable amounts of space. However the Covenant emipire made the humans feel like Tau looking into the eye of the Imperium. There were amazing odds faced against all of humanity and realistically (all, good story-telling aside) IRL the Covenant would probably win.
Yeah, John is pretty much the last word in "Mary Sue" ... Draigo is nothing compared to this BAMF.
Welllllll....Master Chief doesn't carve his name in the hearts of near-gods, and burn down the gardens of ACTUAL gods...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Considering that the poorly equiped UNSC managed to fight the covenant on almost equal terms on the ground, shows that the much better equiped Imperial Guard will dominate them. And that the main gun of a UNSC will take out a covcrusier, the Imperial Navy will dominate space. So no, the IoM will laugh at the.Covenant, even the Tau would laugh at them.
Especially with the scale of the ships.
Pillar of autumn (just about the mightiest warship of the UNSC)
1.17km long 340m wide 414m tall
The Phalanx can dock a dozen cruisers (Cruiser>Pillar of autumn) inside itself, as well as being as big as a moon and having it's own ecosystem. ...basically a deathstar.
I don't care to fully commit to this argument simply because I disagree so much with the arguments presented, but I must offer one piece of advice to further suggestions;
Space Marines find their bolters holy. Unless they are a special-weapon SM, they're rollin' bolter-style.
Spartan II's equip themselves mission-specific, utilize guerrilla tactics, and the MK V armor (Weakest armour in the game series in terms of MJOLNIR) can indeed withstand a shot from the grenade launcher in Reach, which is relatively fair a comparison to a bolter shell. The Sniper Rifle cannot pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is .50 caliber, it can pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is a .50 caliber round, saboted, with secondary propulsion; it is essentially a jet-propelled bullet.
Damn I completely misread this thread. I'm not familar with the halo universe so I thought the 300 spartans vs a space marine and was going "THIS IS MADNESS!"
At the same time though, two hundred space marines is a force to conquer entire systems. And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
The UNSC had some nifty cloaking devices, SPI armor was just about undetectable no matter what type of energy/radiation you are looking for. It does however sacrifice a lot of armor value.
Edit: Also, note the operation: Prometheus, where 300 Spartan IIIs all but defeated one of the largest deployments of Covenant ever seen by humans (numbering in the thousands) the Spartans lasted seven days of full assault, accomplishing their mission against all odds. (remember these are Spartan IIIs, a lot weaker than Spartan IIs at face value)
If you go by that sort of thing then you also have to note that Sisigmund (however his name is spelt) was fighting a seemingly endless hord of traitor marines outside the walls of the Imperial palace for days without rest. How long would a spartan have lasted? Lets be honest the end of Reach was pretty poor it was as if the Covenant were invading nora's ark 2 by 2 hardly a swarm or hord. Plus the Spartans seem to have a habit of running around on their own (well in the games anyway)
If you go by that sort of thing then you also have to note that Sisigmund (however his name is spelt) was fighting a seemingly endless hord of traitor marines outside the walls of the Imperial palace for days without rest. How long would a spartan have lasted? Lets be honest the end of Reach was pretty poor it was as if the Covenant were invading nora's ark 2 by 2 hardly a swarm or hord. Plus the Spartans seem to have a habit of running around on their own (well in the games anyway)
Actually, not so seemingly endless. The Traitor Legions do have actual numbers to them, it would have been in the hundreds of thousands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like how this has turned from a SM vs. SPARTAN-II 'debate' into an Imperium vs. Halo Universe one, by the way. Nice.
Spartan II power armor could probably stand up to a bolter round or two before the reactive liquid metal layers failed. But, the field of "shield" energy would probably set off the bolter's explosive charge even if it was a near miss. UNSC sniper rifles could reach out and cap Space Marines before they would be in range. At low numbers and closer ranges, SM win. At high numbers and long range, advantage Spartans.
TheCaptain wrote:I don't care to fully commit to this argument simply because I disagree so much with the arguments presented, but I must offer one piece of advice to further suggestions;
Space Marines find their bolters holy. Unless they are a special-weapon SM, they're rollin' bolter-style.
Spartan II's equip themselves mission-specific, utilize guerrilla tactics, and the MK V armor (Weakest armour in the game series in terms of MJOLNIR) can indeed withstand a shot from the grenade launcher in Reach, which is relatively fair a comparison to a bolter shell. The Sniper Rifle cannot pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is .50 caliber, it can pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is a .50 caliber round, saboted, with secondary propulsion; it is essentially a jet-propelled bullet.
When you described the sniper in halo, you describe the bolter. Only the bolter blows up after impact. Another nail in the coffin of a Spartan Vs Space Marine.
Squidmanlolz wrote: UNSC sniper rifles could reach out and cap Space Marines before they would be in range. At low numbers and closer ranges, SM win. At high numbers and long range, advantage Spartans.
Where d'you get that from?
A bolter round is essentially a small, spin-stabilized RPG. Since RPGs have been known to be used effectively at nearly a kilometer (in the hands of unaugmented humans), I'd be willing to bet a Space Marine can hit a man-sized target at that range or even more, potentially over a mile; and that's well into the range of a sniper weapon. Modern .50 cal rifles can accurately hit a man-sized target at 1500-2000 meters, which is around a mile. The very longest-range sniper kill ever recorded was a mile and a half.
Essentially, there's a reason that Space Marines rely on their bolters to do basically everything besides killing tanks; a Space Marine with a bolter CAN do basically anything besides killing tanks, and if they can get an angle on the weaker sections of armor they can even do that.
TheCaptain wrote:I don't care to fully commit to this argument simply because I disagree so much with the arguments presented, but I must offer one piece of advice to further suggestions;
Space Marines find their bolters holy. Unless they are a special-weapon SM, they're rollin' bolter-style.
Spartan II's equip themselves mission-specific, utilize guerrilla tactics, and the MK V armor (Weakest armour in the game series in terms of MJOLNIR) can indeed withstand a shot from the grenade launcher in Reach, which is relatively fair a comparison to a bolter shell. The Sniper Rifle cannot pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is .50 caliber, it can pierce MJOLNIR armor because it is a .50 caliber round, saboted, with secondary propulsion; it is essentially a jet-propelled bullet.
Jet propelled...like a bolt...but small, and it doesn't explode.
And bolters are adapted for specific missions, it's just that they usually don't because they are so versatile and kill vehicles and infantry with ease.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...
Railguns IRL are capable of hitting targets dozens of nautical miles away, and are actually better off using a ballistic trajectory, which makes it curve with the earth and reach even greater speeds. On the TT they have 72" range.
It is just a mechanic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rodgers37 wrote:What about Space Marine against the Spartans from 300? Would a Space Marine be able to kill all of them?
Yes.
They wouldn't be able to hurt him and he could one-shot through their shields.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...
Tabletop stats have literally nothing to do with fluff. Do you have a background source for the range of a bolter?
Also; at the very best, this provides an indication that sniper rifles in the 41st millenium are longer-ranged than bolters. That doesn't tell us anything about UNSC sniper rifles.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...
Tabletop stats have literally nothing to do with fluff. Do you have a background source for the range of a bolter?
Also; at the very best, this provides an indication that sniper rifles in the 41st millenium are longer-ranged than bolters. That doesn't tell us anything about UNSC sniper rifles.
UNSC snipers have a range of 2300 Meters, can't find about bolters.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Bolters are 24" inch range on the TT, Snipers (at least Eldar ones) are 36". So they have a bigger range...
Tabletop stats have literally nothing to do with fluff. Do you have a background source for the range of a bolter?
Also; at the very best, this provides an indication that sniper rifles in the 41st millenium are longer-ranged than bolters. That doesn't tell us anything about UNSC sniper rifles.
UNSC snipers have a range of 2300 Meters, can't find about bolters.
That's their maximum range, which means you won't ever kill anything further than that. Rob Furlong (real guy) has killed from further with modern rifles. It isn't impressive.
And bolters with their self-propelled ness would have incredible range, especially the seeker missile ammo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:You sure? I mean, all a Spartan has to do is punch you in the back and you die instantly...
A spartan from 300 could punch a Space Marine in the back and kill him instantly?
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:A long las would theoriticall have range to the horizon. Unless it curves, which I doubt. Plus in the fluff they are not to be toyed with.
It would get weaker the further it goes tho, so...
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
The Spartan II's can jump something like 8 feet through the air and almost float it like they're the Princess from Super Mario Bros 2. I guess that counts for something tactically.
If it was a Spartan jumping around with a rocket launcher, then he might have a chance. Otherwise I'd say Space Marine.
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,
They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
beigeknight wrote:The Spartan II's can jump something like 8 feet through the air and almost float it like they're the Princess from Super Mario Bros 2. I guess that counts for something tactically.
If it was a Spartan jumping around with a rocket launcher, then he might have a chance. Otherwise I'd say Space Marine.
Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,
They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.
Eldar rangers do it. Dark Eldar do it. Necron Wraiths do it. Lictors are especially good at doing it.
Probably the most common account of it happening is when Genestealers do it, to be fair.
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,
They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.
Eldar rangers do it. Dark Eldar do it. Necron Wraiths do it. Lictors are especially good at doing it.
Probably the most common account of it happening is when Genestealers do it, to be fair.
With genestealers it's always like "and they heard a scuttling, raised their weapons and were under attack" so not really getting the drop on them. The only ones would actually do it are the Eldar, who have light bending tech far superior to spartans and can see the future and see where the space marines will be and then just camp there and wait for them. Eldar are far more skilled them spartans, an aspect warrior would also be capable of pwning spartans.
im2randomghgh wrote: "and they heard a scuttling, raised their weapons and were under attack" so not really getting the drop on them.
Yes it is, as usually by the time they turn to face the genestealers one of them is dead. "Getting the drop" doesn't mean not hearing your enemy until one of you is dead, it simply means catching the enemy off-guard, which is exactly what you just described.
im2randomghgh wrote: The only ones would actually do it are the Eldar.
And all of the other things I just mentioned. If an Eldar Ranger can do it, a Lictor or Wraith can do it better. And as someone mentioned above, MJOLNIR comes with stealth technology built into it.
A lot of the arguments being made here are just silly. You can't cherry-pick the most epic of space marine feats(Kaldor Draigo?!) nor can you take Master Chief vs. [a big-ass Covenant force] to really mean much in terms of realism.
I'm [mostly] inclined to agree with the raptor-in-a-suit guy. Spartan-IIs would be a formidable foe against your average power armor and bolter-wielding space marine. Now, I do think in the end, the space marine would prevail against a Spartan-II, maybe even against two or three, depending on the circumstances, but not without considerable challenge(in the case of one spartan) or great damage(in the case of two ore three).
Ronin-Sage wrote:A lot of the arguments being made here are just silly. You can't cherry-pick the most epic of space marine feats(Kaldor Draigo?!) nor can you take Master Chief vs. [a big-ass Covenant force] to really mean much in terms of realism.
I'm [mostly] inclined to agree with the raptor-in-a-suit guy. Spartan-IIs would be a formidable foe against your average power armor and bolter-wielding space marine. Now, I do think in the end, the space marine would prevail against a Spartan-II, maybe even against two or three, depending on the circumstances, but not without considerable challenge(in the case of one spartan) or great damage(in the case of two ore three).
Check it, someone who knows what they're talking about.
Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything. They'd better be packing some heavy firepower, because if Space Marine armor can reliably shrug of Bolt rounds, one would hope that the Spartan IIs could, which without their shields is doubtful, at least.
Also, people keep toting the Spartan Laser and Sniper Rifle. The basic Tactical Marine squad can utilize a Lascannon, and before people start pointing out "Oh well, that's an anti-tank weapon, it's overkill!" I'd like to remind people that the Spartan Laser is primarily anti-armor, and is just as equally OP. And the Lascannon has much, much more than 4 shots. If 1 Sniper Rifle shot to the head can kill a fully shielded Spartan, I imagine it would take about 2-4 Bolter rounds to kill a Spartan II.
Cryonicleech wrote:Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything.
.
100% agree, especially as every example given for sneaking was from Eldar rangers, Lictors, etc - the sneakiest of the sneaky in 40K. I don't care what kind of armour stealth system you have, Mr Space Marine will probably have prey sight / X-ray / Thermal sight / whatever I have left out, and thus will be able to see you and kill you, Mr Spartan II.
The whole sneaking idea is also dead if a Libby is hanging around.
b1soul wrote:I think the difference in tech is a bit too great for the Spartans to overcome
The Spartans would have to fight unconventionally to win: set traps, ambush, use stealth
Space marines aren't dumb though
Not really the difference but the quality that matters.
Admittedly, that does sound just like rephrasing, but let me explain.
A difference in tech would imply one was less developed than the other; this is not the case when comparing Power Armour to MJOLNIR armour. The quality, however, refers to the fact that both are equally as advanced, but one is better in some way. In that case, the SM have an advantage when it comes to what Power Armour can do.
Kaldor wrote:You guys gotta re-read your Halo fluff. Spartan II's are at least the equal of Astartes.
Let me put it this way. Heavy bolters can't pierce marine armour. Heavy bolters can also destroy light vehicles, as can bolters.
a .50 cal bullet can go right through the shielding and and facial armour of a spartan, and kill him after having pierced those two layers of protection.
A .75 or 1 cal bullet, with rocket components and a diamondite tip for armour penetration, as well as an explosive warhead inside it, would likely kill them hitting them ANYWHERE.
Now fired with unimaginable accuracy at rapid fire.
Without all kinds of ordinance, they would just not be able to hurt space marines. Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that. Even without armour, they can survive in a vacuum, and they have super-fsat healing and clotting, as well as being able to kill you by spitting on you.
SMGs aren't going to help the spartans one whit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
b1soul wrote:I think the difference in tech is a bit too great for the Spartans to overcome
The Spartans would have to fight unconventionally to win: set traps, ambush, use stealth
Space marines aren't dumb though
Not really the difference but the quality that matters.
Admittedly, that does sound just like rephrasing, but let me explain.
A difference in tech would imply one was less developed than the other; this is not the case when comparing Power Armour to MJOLNIR armour. The quality, however, refers to the fact that both are equally as advanced, but one is better in some way. In that case, the SM have an advantage when it comes to what Power Armour can do.
No, power armour really is a lot more advanced. Their helmets have all target acquisition and sophisticated bio-scanners, whereas spartan HUDs have none of that.
im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.
Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.
Cryonicleech wrote:Spartan II's sneaking up on Space Marines doesn't mean anything.
.
100% agree, especially as every example given for sneaking was from Eldar rangers, Lictors, etc - the sneakiest of the sneaky in 40K. I don't care what kind of armour stealth system you have, Mr Space Marine will probably have prey sight / X-ray / Thermal sight / whatever I have left out, and thus will be able to see you and kill you, Mr Spartan II.
The whole sneaking idea is also dead if a Libby is hanging around.
Librarian not even a contest. They can simply make spartans blood boil and it's done, or blow up their heads with smite.
And spartan stealth is so bad that you can detect it with the naked eye, and their best weapons (plasma) still glow even with the cloaking.
im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.
Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.
No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.
They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.
Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.
im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.
Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.
No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.
They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.
Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.
Which is what I meant by aware when asleep. And btw, it's not quite the same as being awake when asleep.
Also, those two examples are people either with biomechanical enhancements, or people in a mobile life support.
Furthermore, recycling nutrients to feed them back into an SM's system is still a form of consumption, so yeah, they still need food, i.e. nutrients to keep themselves alive.
"Catalepsean Node: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting1. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. "
ReturningPlayer wrote:Taken from Index Astartes on the Lexicanum.
"Catalepsean Node: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting1. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. "
Thus helpfully proving my point, that they do actually need sleep.
Admittedly, my estimates on what it could do in regards to sleep awareness are a bit off, but yeah.
Spartan II's have shields and are more agile.
Marines have their toughness and their accurate.
From range I would say at least 10 or 12 before they do enough damage for Marine to fall. If marine has Heavy Bolter then until he runs out of ammo.
In melee however they would never be able to kill a Marine, unless they are using Covenant plasma sword. Even then Astartes are more experienced in close combat then Spartans and would fall only if outnumbered in melee. ( remember that most basic melee Astartes unit is able to dodge even Banshee attacks in melee ).
Spartans could never kill Terminators, ever...
That also includes Grey Knights, Honor Guard, and Custodes.
Before Nerd rage I would like to add that Spartans could only kill Astartes with missile Launchers, Covenant Plasma and Snipers. And not every Spartan is Master "Ultramarine plot armor" Chief who stops Covenant and Flood and not even breaking a sweat.
You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.
im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.
Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.
No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.
They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.
Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.
Which is what I meant by aware when asleep. And btw, it's not quite the same as being awake when asleep.
Also, those two examples are people either with biomechanical enhancements, or people in a mobile life support.
Furthermore, recycling nutrients to feed them back into an SM's system is still a form of consumption, so yeah, they still need food, i.e. nutrients to keep themselves alive.
Mjolnir armour and Power Armour are both biomechanical enhancements. And it is not a form of consumption, with the black carapace their armour becomes a part of themselves, so it is like nutrients cycling through your body. And PA and Mjolnir also both have mobile life support systems so...
And it really is. Being aware of your surroundings and able to act at any second... And they are partially conscious through the whole thing, their brain just sleeps in sections.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.
Stalker bolter.
And they are nothing like each other in terms of firepower.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.
I'm still looking for any background about bolters that gives some hard range, accuracy, or damage information. Haven't heard of or found any, though.
Personally? All I'm willing to say about bolters vs. Halo weaponry is;
1) They're quite high-powered, though exactly how high-powered in comparison to Halo weaponry we can't really tell.
2) They're probably much longer-ranged than most people are giving them credit for. Yes, the Space Marines TYPICALLY use bolters as a close-range assault weapon, which fits well with their common shock-trooper tactics, but it's made perfectly clear that a bolter is also capable of hitting and killing man-sized targets at long range, though how long is never stated. We can make some educated guesses, though.
Since the main killing power of a bolter shell seems to come from the explosive effect, they won't decrease in lethality very much even at extreme range (like a ballistic projectile does as velocity drops). Since they fire a big projectile they won't have to correct as much as ballistic weapons for atmospheric effects like wind; since the shell is self-propelled, bullet drop won't be as big an issue either; in essence, the curve the round follows will be flattened and extended by the rocket's thrust, making a bolter much more of a point-and-click weapon than a rifle is at long range. The thrust will also partially counteract the effects of drag, allowing the bolt to hold a steady velocity for as long as the fuel holds out; that certainly wouldn't be long, but then the shell could easily travel more than half a mile at constant velocity with only a single second's-worth of fuel, even if we're assuming that bolters have a muzzle velocity no higher than that of modern battle rifles. That basically means that the round won't even start to slow down until it's thousands of yards away from the firer, and that will dramatically extend the effective range. It will also mean that the bolt shell will impact much sooner than a normal bullet, allowing the Space Marine to correct his aim and fire again more rapidly if he missed.
The net effect of all that is to, essentially, make a bolter an EXCELLENT sniper weapon. It's got high killing power even against very distant targets, you don't have to correct nearly as much as you do with a ballistic weapon for environmental effects or distance, and the fast impact of the round means that, for a given range, a bolter-armed shooter can take more shots in the same period time than a rifle-armed shooter can.
All of this leads me to the conclusion that, even if we agree that the SRS-99 (the Halo sniper rifle) is powerful enough to punch through Power Armor, the bolter is STILL almost certainly a more effective long-range weapon. The SRS-99 fires a narrower and non-explosive round which is designed to penetrate straight and not tumble, meaning that even if it does punch through armor it won't do nearly as much damage as an exploding bolt shell; it is more affected by bullet drop and drag; and the rounds will take longer to strike, meaning it will take longer to place multiple aimed shots.
The only advantage a Spartan sniper armed with an SRS-99 would have over a Space Marine armed with a bolter would be camoflague, and even that would only be true in quite limited circumstances (The Space Marine is out in the open, while the Spartan is on a nearby forested hill, or some such thing). If the Spartan managed to pick their point of attack, they would probably get the first shot off. . . but they would be hard-pressed to kill the Space Marine in that one shot, and as soon as he was aware someone was out there, the Spartan would be in much more danger than the Space Marine.
One fact that is overlooked here:
Every Spartan II had some random, special ability. I depends exactly which Spartan II is being deployed, Linda would be one-shotting space marines, John literally could not die to the enemy because his ability was unbelievable luck .
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.
I'm still looking for any background about bolters that gives some hard range, accuracy, or damage information. Haven't heard of or found any, though.
Personally? All I'm willing to say about bolters vs. Halo weaponry is;
1) They're quite high-powered, though exactly how high-powered in comparison to Halo weaponry we can't really tell.
2) They're probably much longer-ranged than most people are giving them credit for. Yes, the Space Marines TYPICALLY use bolters as a close-range assault weapon, which fits well with their common shock-trooper tactics, but it's made perfectly clear that a bolter is also capable of hitting and killing man-sized targets at long range, though how long is never stated. We can make some educated guesses, though.
Since the main killing power of a bolter shell seems to come from the explosive effect, they won't decrease in lethality very much even at extreme range (like a ballistic projectile does as velocity drops). Since they fire a big projectile they won't have to correct as much as ballistic weapons for atmospheric effects like wind; since the shell is self-propelled, bullet drop won't be as big an issue either; in essence, the curve the round follows will be flattened and extended by the rocket's thrust, making a bolter much more of a point-and-click weapon than a rifle is at long range. The thrust will also partially counteract the effects of drag, allowing the bolt to hold a steady velocity for as long as the fuel holds out; that certainly wouldn't be long, but then the shell could easily travel more than half a mile at constant velocity with only a single second's-worth of fuel, even if we're assuming that bolters have a muzzle velocity no higher than that of modern battle rifles. That basically means that the round won't even start to slow down until it's thousands of yards away from the firer, and that will dramatically extend the effective range. It will also mean that the bolt shell will impact much sooner than a normal bullet, allowing the Space Marine to correct his aim and fire again more rapidly if he missed.
The net effect of all that is to, essentially, make a bolter an EXCELLENT sniper weapon. It's got high killing power even against very distant targets, you don't have to correct nearly as much as you do with a ballistic weapon for environmental effects or distance, and the fast impact of the round means that, for a given range, a bolter-armed shooter can take more shots in the same period time than a rifle-armed shooter can.
All of this leads me to the conclusion that, even if we agree that the SRS-99 (the Halo sniper rifle) is powerful enough to punch through Power Armor, the bolter is STILL almost certainly a more effective long-range weapon. The SRS-99 fires a narrower and non-explosive round which is designed to penetrate straight and not tumble, meaning that even if it does punch through armor it won't do nearly as much damage as an exploding bolt shell; it is more affected by bullet drop and drag; and the rounds will take longer to strike, meaning it will take longer to place multiple aimed shots.
The only advantage a Spartan sniper armed with an SRS-99 would have over a Space Marine armed with a bolter would be camoflague, and even that would only be true in quite limited circumstances (The Space Marine is out in the open, while the Spartan is on a nearby forested hill, or some such thing). If the Spartan managed to pick their point of attack, they would probably get the first shot off. . . but they would be hard-pressed to kill the Space Marine in that one shot, and as soon as he was aware someone was out there, the Spartan would be in much more danger than the Space Marine.
As to the damage of the bolter, in the HH series there are examples of people becoming "pink mists" after getting hit by bolts.
Also, it is doubtful that the sniper would penetrate solid astartes plate. The land raider's 95mm ceramite armour is equivalent to 365mm steel, so as big as astartes plate looks, it is worth about 3.8x as much steel, which would make their ~1.5 inch armour about 140mm+ of steel, which is about as thick as a scorpion MBT's armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squidmanlolz wrote:One fact that is overlooked here:
Every Spartan II had some random, special ability. I depends exactly which Spartan II is being deployed, Linda would be one-shotting space marines, John literally could not die to the enemy because his ability was unbelievable luck .
Having very specific talent doesn't mean you have a special power...
And she would not be. A .50 caliber round would likely not fit through an astartes eye piece and wouldn't pierce anywhere else.
And John dies about 500 times every single play through of the campaign, his power is called respawning, which Titus also has.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:People really over estimate the Marines. I blame our Spiritual Liege's teachings...
Well the numbers for how much a marine is worth vary, with 10 being the lowest number of humans, and the highest in the hundreds. I think depending on the source, and the actual marine, it would be 30+, with line astartes getting about thirty, and heroes just not dying because of plot armour. Deathstrike missile? Bitch I'm Kaldor Draigo.
Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.
TheCaptain wrote:Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.
We understand ballistics and bolter bullet is subsonic projectile who explodes with great strength when it hit its target.
What would happened to Spartan if he get hit by several of those in 2 seconds? He would be as dead as Chaos Daemons facing Terminator Grey knights.
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,
They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.
OMG look some sneakies are sneakin up on da spess marines and it also even happens to the SW .
Again using Eldar, who are renound for being sneaky to prove that point. I can't sneak up on my cat, what makes you think Spartans can sneak up on Marines? More likely to happen the other way round, especially with Shrike around.
EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;
Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?
I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?
Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.
Neither.
Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.
EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;
Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?
I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?
Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.
Neither.
Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.
Ah, I see. Thank you.
I knew there was a certain level of Genetics in the SPARTAN program, never new what/why.
EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;
Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?
I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?
Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.
Neither.
Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.
Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.
And Spartans have been shown to dig their fingers into the armoured frames of dropships to provide themselves handholds. Whats your point?
Kindof an unfair comparison if you think about it. Spartan II's were humanities very first successful super soldiers in the Halo universe. The power armour and marines you all are describing are the current versions. Show me a comparison between a spartan II and a Crusade Era SM in Thunder-Variant Power armour. Those are on equal levels of development.
im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.
Some thing I forgot to address...
Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.
I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,
They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.
OMG look some sneakies are sneakin up on da spess marines and it also even happens to the SW .
Except no one snuck up on them. The stealthy warp spider couldn't even sneak up on the HB marine over the sound of his massive weapon.
They weren't snuck up on by anyone. The only sneaking up that happened was the dreadnought surprising the Howling Banshees.
TheCaptain wrote:Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.
The incredible speed, momentum and diamond tip do absolutely NOTHING for penetration right?
If anything, bolters would have more penetrations because the tip of all their weapons and ammo is monomolecular tipped.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kaldor wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.
And Spartans have been shown to dig their fingers into the armoured frames of dropships to provide themselves handholds. Whats your point?
And Barsabbas in Blood Gorgons demolished an entire building, and was buried miles below the ground and dug his way to the surface.
First, about the bolter versus other weapons. While the bolter is great, keep in mind the size of the weapon is still the limiting factor of how powerful it is. Thus, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle ammo-wise, your damage is the same.
I mean, both use chemical compounds to deliver energy to their target. The more propellent of the sniper rifle equates to more kinetic energy, but the total energy of both systems would be equal. Now, we know that bolters have a kinetic energy component, but adding more kinetic energy to a bolter takes away from the explosive energy. And vice versa, more explosive energy equals less kinetic energy and slower projectile speed to hit mobile targets at range.
My 2cents on the issue is that space marines are superior thanks to magic technology. The halo spartan uses technology that could actually exist even if implausible--no warp for example. Thus, all other comparisons eventually get to the point where Space marines compare a magic material, like adamantium. Since such a component doesnt exist, even if the Spartan COULD compete against it the Space Marine just counters with 'Nuh-uh, cause its unbreakable as it ingnores the physics of the material world!'
(PS, I dont know enough Halo lore, just the games, so the lack of 'magic' technology on the Halo side is from my observations)
DevianID wrote: The more propellent of the sniper rifle equates to more kinetic energy, but the total energy of both systems would be equal. )
...The sniper wouldn't have more propellant or anything like it. Also, the bolt being tipped with diamond means it is unlikely to deform on impact, unlike the softer metals of a sniper rifle.
The bolt would have more momentum, because mass x velocity=momentum. It weighs more and would likely go faster after it's second stage kicks in. Adding an explosive charge is nothing but overkill.
Manually Appended Next Post
Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.
Diamonds are hard on the scale of 'can I scratch something.' Diamonds on the 'Will I deform in a meaningful way at high energies' perform differently than you would think--unless you know something I dont know.
As for your momentum, momemtum is not that important compared to energy. And energy is mv^2, so a sniper rifle that has more speed with the same mass would have more energy.
Also, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle, it can not be both heavier and go faster. Propellent = speed = less mass. Explosives = less kinetic energy = more explosive energy. The total amount of energy would be the same. So again, if the bolter and the sniper rifle ammo is the same size/weight, and both use real world physics, neither could be better than each other on a shell vs shell comparrison.
DevianID wrote:Diamonds are hard on the scale of 'can I scratch something.' Diamonds on the 'Will I deform in a meaningful way at high energies' perform differently than you would think--unless you know something I dont know.
As for your momentum, momemtum is not that important compared to energy. And energy is mv^2, so a sniper rifle that has more speed with the same mass would have more energy.
Also, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle, it can not be both heavier and go faster. Propellent = speed = less mass. Explosives = less kinetic energy = more explosive energy. The total amount of energy would be the same. So again, if the bolter and the sniper rifle ammo is the same size/weight, and both use real world physics, neither could be better than each other on a shell vs shell comparrison.
Well diamons won't deform, they can shatter which would just make the spartans get diamond shards in his face before the bolt explodes.
The sniper wouldn't have more speed OR more mass.
And the bolts use more efficient propellant than simple black powder, so they don't take any noticeable amount of weight loss when they fire. This means they go EXTREMELY fast without losing a considerable amount of massive, and retain their inherent explosive charge.
EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;
Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?
I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?
Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.
Neither.
Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.
Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.
MJOLNIR armor was eventually modified for use by regular human soldiers with only mild augmentation: SPARTAN III, it was relatively successful because less soldiers were lost during a shorter augmentation/training program. Also SPARTAN IIIs were arguably more devoted against the Covenant, most being orphans because of the human-covie war. They mass produced them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_A5KpZzgg
EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;
Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?
I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?
Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.
Neither.
Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.
Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.
MJOLNIR armor was eventually modified for use by regular human soldiers with only mild augmentation: SPARTAN III, it was relatively successful because less soldiers were lost during a shorter augmentation/training program. Also SPARTAN IIIs were arguably more devoted against the Covenant, most being orphans because of the human-covie war. They mass produced them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_A5KpZzgg
IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)
im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)
Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?
im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)
Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?
im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)
Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?
Yes.
The growth process and training take a few years. They are kept in the scouts to get experience and are AM, devastators before tac squad to make them balanced in their way of war.
It all depends on the combination of equipment and experience. Eliminating those two variables and putting a marine just out of training against his spartan counterpart, with no equipment 1 on 1 a marine would most likely win, but he would be badly injured at the end of the fight.
I like the added use of"realism" people keep talking about. Well realistically this could do this and that does this. LOL
There is no way realistically discuss any of this since the physics even of the weapons is not real nor their equipment. Tey cant even predict a scenario of 10 Navy Seals vs 10 Spetnaz in the battle simulations without real weapon data and mission scenario. Last I checked you cant bring a bolter or spartan laser to the range.
Next up Ronald Macdonald vs Santa Claus! Battle of the Red!
(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)
In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way:
In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.
Lightning Reflexes: 4+ invul. that makes them so 'lucky.'
Synskin: The FNPUSR given from their armor but only on a 6; Spartans can take some intense punishment,ie. survive RE-ENTRY.
ArmSv: Due to the lack of many centuries long of a service record like SMPA, it only is a 4+ Sv; not as relatively advanced.
I: Spatans would be way quicker than their bulkier descendants; not to mention, they would most likely be Relentless(Good luck with that one pistol shot Brother Space Marine, hope it hits)
W: They would more likely have 1 BC of reflexes.
BS,WS: I'm not sure whether this should be equal or a little higher strictly because Spartans are the best of the best Marines; all things considered, SM would have decades longer in service= more exp in battle.
Now for weaponry(Oh boy, which sci-fi physics will win?)
To get a good comparison, you have to compare similar weapons(come on folks):
Power Sword vs... Cov power sword (energy sword)- Similar no ArmSv when hit but I think the energy sword should confer an init. bonus to charge from range like it does in game
TH vs Grav Hammer- As easy as it is to dodge a Chieftan with a grav ham, its another to dodge a Spartan. Thus a hammer wielding Spartan would NOT hit at init 1
Bolt____ vs ...?- There really is no comparable weapon in the Halo universe to compare to any bolter weaponry, thought the needle would be the closest. Guided rounds that turn the target into a 'pink mist' after enough explode in the target (hence the H3 achieve).
Assault cannon vs Chain turret- Well, SM can't has so Spartans win this category. But strict comparison I couldn't say due to lack of knowledge on assault can. fluff.
Lascannon vs Sprtn Laser- again Relentless spartan with even a str. 8 las cannon> stationary SM w/ str. 9 one
Melta weapons win. Nuff said Autocannon = Gauss rifle-explosive element.
Halo flamer=Heavy flamer.
ML vs SPNKr- equal blast dmg, but SPNKr has no AP missle. Still may win with Relentless
Sniper vs SR99- Halo's SR99 is at heart an anti material rifle, meaning its not ap6, but around 4 or 5 instead due to 1shots on most Cov infantry armor. Though I would give it the shield breaker element from exitus weapons.
Plans handguns- thought Halo plasma's overheat, its not enough to kill due to inferior power. Though they may be around str.5~6, plas pistols would confer an immediate crew stunned - they can still shoot.Maybe ap4~5 because its plasma
Halo grenades vs IG GrenadeLauncher- Due to pitcher status of Spartns, these should have the same profile EXCEPT plasma grenades~=melta bombs.
Cyclone ML ~= ML Warthog
Assault rifle would be str 3 AP 4 due to bullet penetration physics.
Battle rifle/ dmr/ magnum would be str4 AP 4
Plascannon would compare to fuel rod gun - gets hot rule
Without getting into vehicles(I might do that later), I would say that in the end it comes down to tactics and dice rolls but due to a few special rules and invul saves (which may need minor balancing but are pretty fair IMO), I'd say 1v1 infantry the Spartan takes a W/L of 3/2 because of the aura of sheer luck that is common to all Spartans. In the end, Spartans (in a sick, twisted combi Halo-40k universe) paved the way for their super-future Marine Brothers .
I shall say it for the second time today, NEVER compare 40k FLUFF with the 40k TABLETOP GAME. They are SEPARATE and should be treated as such, trying to apply game "stats" with the fluff is useless except in the very loosest sense.
Now I wouldn't consider myself more knowledgeable in theoretical physics than any other average college engineers, but to understand something, you have to put it in tangible terms. We simply cant comprehend 4 deminsions because we are 3d beings living in 4 demensions, just as a 2d stickman on paper couldn't comprehend 3d. Put him on a mobius strip and as he moves forward, he is moving in the 3rd dimension though he is unaware of the fact, just as we are unaware of the 4th dimension.
All I did was make tangible stats IN game to compare them relatively OUT of game, which we certainly can't comprehend the physics of
Sopoko wrote:(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)
In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way: In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.
HA HA HA NO.
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous.
Standard weapon, for those comparing a bolter to a Halo Sniper, is an assault rifle that I don't care to remember the name of for a spartan. Let's see them outdo a marine with one of those. It would be like an airsoft gun.
On a serious note, a Spartan, with his shields, etc, is more comparable to a Vet guardsman with Carapace armour and a refractor field. I'm not even joking, a Marine would use the remnants of the Spartan for sport later. The point of a Spartan surviving re entry is an odd one, and doesn't comply with physics. (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).
liquidjoshi wrote: (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).
Oh my god you said the "S" word. That's a huge no-no.
Also, Spartans are relentless with missile launchers and lascannons. Marines are not. They also got that cheesy bio-heal-aura-ball-thing that's definitely gives them FnP. Relentless w/ lascannons with FnP with 2++ armor lock (pffttt so what if you can't shoot. Its a 2++ to allocate to) > a tactical squad.
Can they use covenant weapons? Covenant plasma rifles don't seem to kill you when they over-heat which is real nice. Also, non-initiative 1 thunderhammer. Nuff said.
im2randomghgh wrote: And Barsabbas in Blood Gorgons demolished an entire building, and was buried miles below the ground and dug his way to the surface.
And both Noble 6 and the Master Chief crashed from orbit into a planet,. in nothing but their armour. Like a drop pod insertion, without the drop pod.
My point?
Spartans are just as tough and strong as Astartes. At least.
Sopoko wrote:(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)
In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way:
In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.
HA HA HA NO.
Well hey, I said roughly. All I was comparing there was relative stats, not relative fluff, but good point. That's why I left some stuff open like the BS/ws stuff cause even I wouldn't say that a Spartan IS basically an assassin they would only be comparable in armor & a little in reflexes, but you get the general idea.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.
Demonstrably false. Mjolnir armour provides at least an equal boost to strength and reaction times as Astartes plate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
liquidjoshi wrote:
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous
lol, not quite.
Mjolnir armour would give a 2+ armour save, the shielding would give a 2++ save, and both could be taken, rather than one. Spartans would be Fleet, WS5, BS6, S4, T5, W2, I6, A2 and LD10 with feel no pain, relentless, move through cover, infiltrate, scout, stealth...
liquidjoshi wrote: (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).
Oh my god you said the "S" word. That's a huge no-no.
Also, Spartans are relentless with missile launchers and lascannons. Marines are not. They also got that cheesy bio-heal-aura-ball-thing that's definitely gives them FnP. Relentless w/ lascannons with FnP with 2++ armor lock (pffttt so what if you can't shoot. Its a 2++ to allocate to) > a tactical squad.
Can they use covenant weapons? Covenant plasma rifles don't seem to kill you when they over-heat which is real nice. Also, non-initiative 1 thunderhammer. Nuff said.
Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.
If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:
Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kaldor wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.
Demonstrably false. Mjolnir armour provides at least an equal boost to strength and reaction times as Astartes plate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
liquidjoshi wrote:
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous
lol, not quite.
Mjolnir armour would give a 2+ armour save, the shielding would give a 2++ save, and both could be taken, rather than one. Spartans would be Fleet, WS5, BS6, S4, T5, W2, I6, A2 and LD10 with feel no pain, relentless, move through cover, infiltrate, scout, stealth...
At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.
At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.
im2randomghgh wrote: Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.
If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:
Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.
Oh, I'm sorry. I presumed you were actually familiar with the Halo background.
Well, let me put it this way. Spartans can run really fast, and can fire heavy weapons at peak efficiency while doing so. So, that would qualify them for the relentless rule.
Anyway, have fun with your trolling, I'm off to play some Halo!
Of course they should be relentless, they can fire whatever they have out running with the speed of a Kenyan. And it looks like some folks are taking the unit comparisons too seriously, we are just saying, 'think about this unit, they are like this but with/without these rules.' Again not that he IS a STrooper, but you gotta give a Spartan SOME credit, he at least has bs4 like a Sm. Bs3 and I4 is more like an ODST.
im2randomghgh wrote:At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.
Doesn't matter if you can't see it, it's there.
At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.
Um, yes to all of it. Because they are. Have you read any of the accompanying literature? Spartans are quite capable of slapping incoming missiles out of the air, punching sentinel equivalents to the ground, shot-putting drop pods, etc etc. They are highly trained and experienced elite special ops troopers. Move through cover makes total sense, and their regenerative abilities, and built in trauma units more than cover them for FNP.
im2randomghgh wrote: Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.
If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:
Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.
Oh, I'm sorry. I presumed you were actually familiar with the Halo background.
Well, let me put it this way. Spartans can run really fast, and can fire heavy weapons at peak efficiency while doing so. So, that would qualify them for the relentless rule.
Anyway, have fun with your trolling, I'm off to play some Halo!
Except spartans don't run ever in halo, and in reach are shown to be able to sprint for actually LESS time that normal humans whereas marines can run for DAYS and also, in case you didn't notice, Spartans can barely walk when holding heavy weapons.
im2randomghgh wrote:Except spartans don't run ever in halo, and in reach are shown to be able to sprint for actually LESS time that normal humans whereas marines can run for DAYS and also, in case you didn't notice, Spartans can barely walk when holding heavy weapons.
Like I said, read the accompanying literature. They sprint, much faster than humans, and can shoot the spots of a die while doing it. With a sniper rifle or missile launcher to boot. They certainly don't have to stand still to fire it like a Marine does.
Really, why not educate yourself on both sides of the debate before jumping in?
im2randomghgh wrote:At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.
Doesn't matter if you can't see it, it's there.
At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.
Um, yes to all of it. Because they are. Have you read any of the accompanying literature? Spartans are quite capable of slapping incoming missiles out of the air, punching sentinel equivalents to the ground, shot-putting drop pods, etc etc. They are highly trained and experienced elite special ops troopers. Move through cover makes total sense, and their regenerative abilities, and built in trauma units more than cover them for FNP.
1. I am saying that background wise their suits are made of hand-waivium.
2. They really aren't. Do you KNOW how tough a daemon prince is? IN the fluff a daemon prince being summoned usually means that entire systems will be lost, and they usually can't be banished at ALL without special rituals and intervention by the Grey Knights, and you think that they should be tougher than that by MORE than that is tougher than a marine? Are you [i[]insane[/i]? Their regenerative abilities are NOTHING compared to that of marines. Larraman cells are exactly THE most effective way to stop a wound. The speed at which they regenerate their health when you give them the larraman cells bonus in the SM game is about on par with the fluff, whereas in the games spartan health doesn't go up at all without med-kits. They would have less experience than most IG troopers, and would be half as brave not having faced the horrors the guard has. Flood is nothing at all next to halo.
IN fact, in the game they are shown to be awful at melee, only using it as a last resort. They are more likely to have WS2. A space marine in unarmed combat with a Spartan would be the spartans hitting the space marine and it doing nothing and then the space marine tearing the spartans spine out his throat.
And HOW does move through cover make sense? A rule to represent the a monstrous creature ( there really aren't anyhtings like that in halo) simply tossing aside small buildings and gak to plow through everything...
They really are just awful. that is why like four shots from a plasma rifle can kill one.
Storm troopers are experienced and highly trained (better trained) troopers too, with many having live hundreds of years due to life extensions, with levels of experience that makes spartans laughable. A single hot shot bolt to the head would end a spartan.
And there is not one example of any spartan showing exemplary leadership skills in all the halo fluff, not one. I have read every novel, spent lots of time on their wiki and played all the games.
Seriously though, think about it, you're making them tougher than SANGUINOR, who happens to be an incarnation of a PRIMARCH, you know, an almost-god?
Now about wounds, a wound represents something like having your head blown off or equivalent, and you think a spartan gets that twice? Paladins only have them because you know they have these psychic powers that kind of let them warp space time, everything that has multi-wounds has some kind of reason for it, unlike spartans. Spartans also have zero redundancy above normal humans, so they definately don't deserve T4. Orks only have T4 because you can cut their head off and sew it on to a new bodt and it'll work as an example of their redundancy.
Epic troll makes me rage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sopoko wrote:You 'barely walk' faster than running humans
Have you ever played halo? They hobble with turrets.
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field.
I wasn't aware that vet guardsmans move so fast that hypersonic bullets move in slow motion to their perceptions and wear armor that allows them to fall from space through the atmosphere and into the ground without suffering major damage.
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field.
I wasn't aware that vet guardsmans move so fast that hypersonic bullets move in slow motion to their perceptions and wear armor that allows them to fall from space through the atmosphere and into the ground without suffering major damage.
No.
Actually, in the books during their drop about half the spartans died while dropping and most of the other were crippled.
Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life. So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.
Brother Coa wrote:And the most important question of them all:
Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life. So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.
Because they do not acknowledge the Emperor of man as their ruler? Because they use armour that does not conform to mechanicus teachings, therefore making them heretics?
Because the space marines feel like it?
Because they are bored and need a warm up for the main event of killing hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of orks/daemons/cultists.
Brother Coa wrote:And the most important question of them all:
Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life. So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.
You'd think so, but in the depravity of the far future, nothing is out of reach as far as blood-sports are concerned. Man, I love me some blood-sports.
Brother Coa wrote:And the most important question of them all:
Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life. So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.
Idk the romans did it and so do boxers/mma fighters. Real question is what happens when the ninja turtles get here with the battle toads..
Brother Coa wrote:And the most important question of them all:
Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life. So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.
Idk the romans did it and so do boxers/mma fighters. Real question is what happens when the ninja turtles get here with the battle toads..
Or when an ogryn decides to wipe his butt with a spartan
You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
Kaldor wrote:They are tougher than a marine because that helps to represent the nature of their armour, physiology, and regenerative shield units.
This is wrong.
To say stormtroopers are better trained is simply betraying your ignrance on the matter. Better to keep yer yap shut.
This is also wrong, ODST are HALO equivalent to Imperium Stormtroopers. SPARTANS have more genetic enchantments then Stormtroopers to be said that they are the same.
For this debate which is rather funny to watch is it really and I cant believe Im saying this, but is it fair to compare master chief to a general space marine? Wouldnt that be like comparing mephiston or some fluff armor nut to a regular unknown guy? I mean the unknown guys never have the fluff armor to fight named people. If you compared them named guy to named guy or random spartan to random marine.. Cause then itd be funny to watch mephiston eat master chief.. lol
Kaldor wrote:They are tougher than a marine because that helps to represent the nature of their armour, physiology, and regenerative shield units.
They would have move through cover because, you know, they can move through cover.
To say stormtroopers are better trained is simply betraying your ignrance on the matter. Better to keep yer yap shut.
The nature of their armours is light armour, the kind a skirmisher would wear, because that is all they can do. Have you ever played firefight will the number of enemies edited way up? his armour doesn't do gak.
Their physiology is WAY inferior to space marines, they don't have anywhere near the redundancy or even the amount of circulation and oxygen intake. Also, marines are immune to all conventional poisons. They are SLIGHTLY tougher than a human, but much, much less so than an ork.
They wouldn't have move through cover because guess what? They can't. They aren't like certain ghostly necron units or mandrakes that can phase out, they aren't like avatars that can basically eat buildings. In fact, in the game whenever they fall a few dozen feet or land in water higher than their waist they die right away.
It really isn't, and in fact it is likely I have read more Halo than you, having read every novel and many of the comics as well as having played all the games. All you're demonstrating is an ignorance of the abilities of stormtroopers. Have you read Imperial Glory? Blank the stromtrooper is holding off an ork horde by himself for a fair amount of time, alters a standard vox enough to give it range to call in navy bombardment and clears whole buildings of enemies, without being like a spartans hiding and taking pot shots and letting their shield recharge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Draigo wrote:For this debate which is rather funny to watch is it really and I cant believe Im saying this, but is it fair to compare master chief to a general space marine? Wouldnt that be like comparing mephiston or some fluff armor nut to a regular unknown guy? I mean the unknown guys never have the fluff armor to fight named people. If you compared them named guy to named guy or random spartan to random marine.. Cause then itd be funny to watch mephiston eat master chief.. lol
Mephiston wouldn't even need to fight, he could just pop him with his mind. Vortex of doom?
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
No, it needs sentient life to thrive, which would limit it to the covenant and humans.
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
No, it needs sentient life to thrive, which would limit it to the covenant and humans.
EIther way, Tyranids>flood.
There is implied that there is more sentient life in the galaxy than humans and covenant, as both factions combined had access to less than 1/2 of an arm of the milky way.
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
No, it needs sentient life to thrive, which would limit it to the covenant and humans.
EIther way, Tyranids>flood.
There is implied that there is more sentient life in the galaxy than humans and covenant, as both factions combined had access to less than 1/2 of an arm of the milky way.
Noting implied more sentient life. In fact, it seems to have been implied that there is absolutely NONE.
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
No, it needs sentient life to thrive, which would limit it to the covenant and humans.
EIther way, Tyranids>flood.
There is implied that there is more sentient life in the galaxy than humans and covenant, as both factions combined had access to less than 1/2 of an arm of the milky way.
Noting implied more sentient life. In fact, it seems to have been implied that there is absolutely NONE.
The Halo weapons killed all sentient life eaons ago. Humans and Covies had time to develop, why not more?
Brother Coa wrote:You think that if Astartes meet SPARTANS they wouldn't help them to kick Covenant and Flood b*** and then try to introduce them to the Emperor's teachings?
If dawn of war has anything to teach us, it's that you fight allies and enemies at the same time when you're a space marine.
Also, the entire halo universe is so tiny compared to 40k, the tau would likely be able to destroy all three factions.
The flood is spread much further than the humans or any covenant space, perhaps the whole of the milky way.
No, it needs sentient life to thrive, which would limit it to the covenant and humans.
EIther way, Tyranids>flood.
There is implied that there is more sentient life in the galaxy than humans and covenant, as both factions combined had access to less than 1/2 of an arm of the milky way.
Noting implied more sentient life. In fact, it seems to have been implied that there is absolutely NONE.
The Halo weapons killed all sentient life eaons ago. Humans and Covies had time to develop, why not more?
Every single sentient life form we have seen other than humans and covies in the Halo Universe is extinct/gone (both the forerunners and the precursors) So there seems to be a high turnover rate for societies thereabouts.
On one hand, you have people claiming that spartans can(paraphrasing here) slap missiles out of the air and perceive supersonic projectiles as if they were moving in slow-motion...yeah, no. Hell no.
Yet on the other hand, people seem to be seriously underestimating how dangerous spartans are as combatants.
On one hand, you have people claiming that spartans can(paraphrasing here) slap missiles out of the air and perceive supersonic projectiles as if they were moving in slow-motion...yeah, no. Hell no.
Yet on the other hand, people seem to be seriously underestimating how dangerous spartans are as combatants.
Where are the sensible points?!
Spartans definitely could kill many normal humans they simply don't have weaponry for dealing with marines.
On one hand, you have people claiming that spartans can(paraphrasing here) slap missiles out of the air and perceive supersonic projectiles as if they were moving in slow-motion...yeah, no. Hell no.
Yet on the other hand, people seem to be seriously underestimating how dangerous spartans are as combatants.
Where are the sensible points?!
Spartans definitely could kill many normal humans they simply don't have weaponry for dealing with marines.
Right, I wasn't arguing that spartans could ultimately win a struggle against a SM.
I think their main problem would be penetrating the marine's armor, assuming we're talking about whatever UNSC rifle they use vs. non-special mk VII plate. Although I might be underestimating the potency of the UNSC weapon systems.
The tech difference would be to great for the Spartan to handle. A bolter will punch through spartan armor or at least cause enough damage from impact to flat out ruin the Spartans day. A Chainsword will tear a spartan in half, flat out, no arguments there. Imperial plasma tech is more dangerous, but a space marine usually knows what hes doing well enough to keep it from exploding all over himself. The lascannon outdoes the spartan laser by a mile. And the space marines hundreds of years of experience over the spartan will play in as well.
On one hand, you have people claiming that spartans can(paraphrasing here) slap missiles out of the air and perceive supersonic projectiles as if they were moving in slow-motion...yeah, no. Hell no.
Yet on the other hand, people seem to be seriously underestimating how dangerous spartans are as combatants.
Where are the sensible points?!
There actually was a bit in one of the Halo books where Master Chief slaps a missile out of the air.
On one hand, you have people claiming that spartans can(paraphrasing here) slap missiles out of the air and perceive supersonic projectiles as if they were moving in slow-motion...yeah, no. Hell no.
Yet on the other hand, people seem to be seriously underestimating how dangerous spartans are as combatants.
Where are the sensible points?!
There actually was a bit in one of the Halo books where Master Chief slaps a missile out of the air.
I'm sure there was, but I'm going to selectively discount that because:
A) It doesn't make sense
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is
C) It's hyper-heroics at play, where the hero has to be badder than badass(Kaldor-fracking-Draigo, anyone?)
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...
Dunno...it seems like if a bolt round explodes in your torso, you're basically screwed, spartan or space marine.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...
Dunno...it seems like if a bolt round explodes in your torso, you're basically screwed, spartan or space marine.
If the armour can survive the forces of re-entry and impact, I doubt it could penetrate it.
Ronin-Sage wrote:
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Ronin-Sage wrote:
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Ronin-Sage wrote:
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Are you implying that John has more plot-armour than Draigo?
And IIRC, John had extra training and modifications to allow him to carry Cortana. Afterall, he has a ship's AI in him to protect.
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Basically any named Space Marine gets a truly ludicrous level of plot armor. I mean really, genuinely stupid. Master Chief ain't unique in that. . .
Ronin-Sage wrote:
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Are you implying that John has more plot-armour than Draigo?
And IIRC, John had extra training and modifications to allow him to carry Cortana. Afterall, he has a ship's AI in him to protect.
I don't think the conversations between John and Cortana would have been as casual as they were in-game if either had been extensively trained in dealing with one another, they would probably be thinking a lot dryer and safer rather than cracking the occasional joke or sly comeback, but I don't know for sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Squidmanlolz wrote:
I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.
Basically any named Space Marine gets a truly ludicrous level of plot armor. I mean really, genuinely stupid. Master Chief ain't unique in that. . .
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
Surely the casual jokes and such were signs they were accustomed to one another and knew each other intimately? Otherwise, I doubt Cortana would have trusted John when he did all that crazy stuff.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Surely the casual jokes and such were signs they were accustomed to one another and knew each other intimately? Otherwise, I doubt Cortana would have trusted John when he did all that crazy stuff.
She knew his record for luck before they ever met, she states that in the Halo 3 intro. I don't think that she ever could doubt him.
Im not going to get into the debate, but im just going to point out some facts to consider.
About Spartans able to survive atmosphere reentry and impact... did he have assistance like flying gear or jet pack?
or indeed a free fall?
Stormraven needs special ceramite plates to do the re-entry, and that durability makes them resilient even against melta weaponry.
You break bones when you fall off even 2 floor buildings. You turn into flesh milk shake when you fall off high rises.
Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.
If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
Basically, yeah.
Lysander; Fights his way off an entire planet of Iron Warriors and their horrific mutant/cyborg servants bare-handed, rescuing prisoners along the way, kills a bunch of Chaos Space Marines (while naked and unarmed, remember) to take their gear, then hijacks a starship and flies away with it.
Marneus Calgar: Punches a literal Avatar of the God of War to death. Stands in a breached wall and holds off an entire Ork Waaagh for 24 hours solid.
Kaldor Draigo: I don't think I even need to get into it.
Kayvaan Shrike; Trapped behind Ork lines for three solid years with no support, and not only survives but actually causes enough havoc to shorten the campaign by, literally, decades.
So. . . yeah. Plot armor is not rare. They're spreading it on with a trowel.
About Spartans able to survive atmosphere reentry and impact... did he have assistance like flying gear or jet pack?
or indeed a free fall?
Nothing more than a big hunk of debris from a Covenant (formerly Forerunner) space-craft wreck.
I have to note that his armor went into a lock-up mode, transferring the brunt of the impact to the gel-layer of the armor (Spartan armor has layers (like onions (and ogres)))
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...
In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.
Spartans in the Spartan 2 program are all equipped with reentry packs. Their back is actually a jet pack. (Halo 4)
But yeah. They are not on paar with a space marine. A Space marine would kill two of them at once. But three is a different task competely.
Spartan III's on the other hand would get their arses handed to them like a silver platter.
Though armor lockup did actually damage Master Chief's Suit....
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...
In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.
But when you fall 20 feet, you don't have a big chunk of a spaceship in your hands...
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...
In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.
And yet, you can survive atmospheric entry. Such is life.
You Know Spartan 117 is actually the luckiest son of a gun in the entire halo universe right?
The other spartans died left and right.
Very few of them survived.
Asherian Command wrote:Spartans in the Spartan 2 program are all equipped with reentry packs. Their back is actually a jet pack. (Halo 4)
But yeah. They are not on paar with a space marine. A Space marine would kill two of them at once. But three is a different task competely.
Spartan III's on the other hand would get their arses handed to them like a silver platter.
Though armor lockup did actually damage Master Chief's Suit....
Spartan IIIs fight a very different war than their counterparts, they typically specialize in camouflage and being out numbered and over-powered by the enemy and most of their missions in the fluff are greatly successful, if not at a huge sacrifice but still. 300 Spartan IIIs were able to capture a major Covenant outpost, on an asteroid while under attack from one of the largest Covenant forces ever seen in one place.
Anyone got the kill figures of SPARTANS to Elites/Brutes? Then we can compare them to SM vs CSM ratios and see how it works out, since both are fighting their equals...
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Obviously they are more advanced than orks.
Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.
If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Obviously they are more advanced than orks.
Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.
If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.
Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.
I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Obviously they are more advanced than orks.
Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.
If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.
Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.
One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.
e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Obviously they are more advanced than orks.
Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.
If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.
Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.
One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.
e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.
Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?
The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.
Obviously they are more advanced than orks.
Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.
If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.
Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.
One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.
e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.
Also, almost all covenant tech is taken DIRECTLY from forerunner artifacts, they loot their gods and don't even have the decency of Orks to fix it up "Good an' Proppa',"
Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?
And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.
Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.
Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?
And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.
Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.
Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?
And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.
Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.
Exactly where I read it. Click the links, not all of those spartans were combatants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:As do Space Marines... Everything gets old, everything dies.
No. Dante is 1200 years old, the guy from Salamanders was a non dreadnought who had been alive since the heresy, the CSM are all millenia old, bjorn is 11000, Lysander is 700 etc.
Space marines might have their hair grey slightly, but that is the only sign of aging in them.
Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?
And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.
Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.
Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:
Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.
The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.
Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?
And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.
Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.
Something to consider: would a brute with brute shot be similar in strength and armament to a space marine (with inferior armor)? Explosive rounds, very physically strong, etc. in first strike (a book), a spartan II (Grace, I think?)is killed by three rounds from a brute shot, and John is almost killed in hand to hand combat with one. Anyways, I would say a space marine would win, as fluff-wise they are made out to be more powerful than I felt Spartans were in the halo books, which is understandable, as they have technology and the like that is millennia more advanced.
Spartan II armor can help the occupant survive planet fall without any additional equipment (like a drop pod). That being said I highly doubt a bolter could reliably kill a Spartan. Because of that I rate it a 3+/5++.
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.
If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.
Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.
Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.
im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)
Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?
Yes.
No,
Scouts are completely ready for the Black Carapace when they are between 16-18 years of age which is when they have completed all other implants and their training.
If there are openings in any of the Companies they will immediatly join an existing squad or form a new squad of marines.
if there arn't openings(rare) then they will wait for one(rarely long)
Initiates are taken betwen 12-14 years old and are ready at 16-18. Basically a 4 year minimum production time(and a failure rate of around 60%)
Dr.Dakka wrote:If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.
Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.
Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.
I agree.
where
Vt = terminal velocity,
m = mass of the falling object,
g = acceleration due to gravity,
Cd = drag coefficient,
ρ = density of the fluid through which the object is falling, and
A = projected area of the object.
In red, the suit of armor depending how light or heavy it is, will change the red parts. As the armor isnt light in density, nor is it projected in a wide area like wings
nor does it effect drag like streamline, it will effect it.
LunaHound wrote:No worries, physics is confusing with the formulas and such.
As long as it makes sense and we can apply it in real life xD
Lol yea I am a Psychology major not a physicist, but I love physics. I try to learn as much as i can, but with the majority of my studies in a completely different area, I find my knowledge lacking more often than not.
Maybe one day I will pursue my love for physics, but I have to get my doctorate in psychology first or my woman will kill me... Damn my intellectual ADD.
Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++
S4? Really? Why? Where S4 = double the strengthof S3 (Guardsman vs Marine) it's more like 3.5. Again, Initiative 5? 4, maximum. I would call it a 4+/5++ save too, good armour but not as good as Power armour.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.
I reference my "3.5" argument above.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.
Again, calling it at I4. I5 is Eldar fast, and Spartans are not Eldar fast.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.
To be fair, I agree with you, they are roughly this stat line, but people seem to be vastly overestimating the Spartans and disregarding the better parts of SM fluff.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.
Fine. Standard weapons 1v1 the Marine would probably win.
Soon as the marine gets any specialisation past a flamer the Spartan is boned.
If he's a devestator the Spartan's boned.
If he gets a jump pack, chainsword and Bolt Pistol the Spartan's boned.
Grey Knight? Boned.
Terminator? Boned.
Captain+? Trololol. No question.
And for the record, despite being three pages late, the whole "Relentless argument can be applied to SM as well going on the gameplay from Space Marine. Move+ shoot lascannon? Yup, obviously every Marine is relentless.
Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++
S4? Really? Why? Where S4 = double the strengthof S3 (Guardsman vs Marine) it's more like 3.5. Again, Initiative 5? 4, maximum. I would call it a 4+/5++ save too, good armour but not as good as Power armour.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.
I reference my "3.5" argument above.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.
Again, calling it at I4. I5 is Eldar fast, and Spartans are not Eldar fast.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.
To be fair, I agree with you, they are roughly this stat line, but people seem to be vastly overestimating the Spartans and disregarding the better parts of SM fluff.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.
Fine. Standard weapons 1v1 the Marine would probably win.
Soon as the marine gets any specialisation past a flamer the Spartan is boned.
If he's a devestator the Spartan's boned.
If he gets a jump pack, chainsword and Bolt Pistol the Spartan's boned.
Grey Knight? Boned.
Terminator? Boned.
Captain+? Trololol. No question.
And for the record, despite being three pages late, the whole "Relentless argument can be applied to SM as well going on the gameplay from Space Marine. Move+ shoot lascannon? Yup, obviously every Marine is relentless.
-_- Spartans regularly rip whole chunks off of armored vehicles with their bare hands.... My judgement of S 4 stands in my opinion. But if 3 is indeed half of S 4 than I up my estimate to S 5 because of said ripping apart of tanks...
A Spartan in red in the Halo cartoon series moved.so quickly she dodged bullets and out maneuvered a physically overpowering opponent. This sounds exactly like Eldar fluff, and even guardians are I 5.
Spartans have access to Depleted Uranium Sniper rifles that regularly destroy armored vehicles and can do this on the run with high accuracy at range.
Spartans have a Spartans Laser, which as previously mentioned is a lascannon, and can fire it accurately on the move.
They also have mobile heavy weapons platforms they can carry including Plasma and Gattling turrets and missile turrets with homing capabilities...
Spartans have access to Plasma Weapons of all sorts that ignore armor...
Don't make it an arms race, the tech in both galaxies is about par, Save the psychic machine spirity stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Spartans also have jump packs and plasma swords(power weapons). They can also go invisible, become temporarily invincible, and deploy decoy to distract the enemy...
Honestly I'm starting to lean more towards the Spartans now. They have more gadgets and I think that might be the deciding factor.
Also, it takes about 3 months to a year of solid training to become deadly proficient with fire arms or hand to hand combat. I mean repetition is everything in martial arts and shooting (I am an enthusiast in both categories) but I dont think a hundred ears is going to make a difference over 15. Both time periods are ridiculously long, and given training periods like that there has to be a point where your training is no longer improving your skills.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if a Space Marine's armor can't survive re-entlry and a spartan's can, how is a Spartan's armor then worse then a Marine's?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow I renig all of my posts, I realize now that 40k is so insanely over the top in its bull gak fluff no other sci fi universe could compete. Seriously starting tp tire of 40k fluff, too much ridiculously nonsense, not enough depth and character development... This is like comparing Firefly to the Expendables...
Spartans have experience with the enemy's weapons and can use pretty much whatever they pick up after minimal training.
^(Remember, Spartan IIs were trained before Humans made contact with the Covenant, so they knew nothing about Covie tech and were still able to use it after a little while.
Your underestimating the bolter. Its the same str as a .50 cal HMG with more penetrating power, in game stats. Its most likely on par with the sniper rifle, which is a horrible sniper rifle, every time it fires it leaves a trail right back the firer. So counter sniper is going to be easy.
On the "Re entry "point, I was just informed he had a jet pack. So your armour point is moot.
I actually LOLed at "Spartan Laser is a las cannnon" It is not, it is more comparible to a Multilaser. A rocket launcher is a better weapon.
Space marines can punch apart tanks too, both in fluff and on table top. Sorry Covenant tanks would have an AV of 8, clearly Spartans are up against inferior foes than Space Marines.
Well, I can see the Halo fanbois have deployed in force, so I'm just going to jump ship now.
Just remember: Psykers. Have a nice day, spartans.
A better way to visualise this whole thing would be to compare playing as a spartan on "space marine" and vice verca. This helps me reach my own conclusions very well.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Sorry, chap, but that's just not true. The amount of years a SM spends as a scout is, as Grey Templar says, a hell of a lot shorter than a hundred years. In fact, it's somewhere between 4-10, as sources vary.
Also, training and experience are not the same thing. Whereas training can at least prepare you for a battle, it's got nothing on actual experience when it comes down to a fight to the death.
I stand by my original estimate. A SM could take on 2, maybe 3 SPARTAN-IIs and still stand a better than 50% chance of victory, though it would almost certainly result in the SM taking some serious wounds to do so.
Still, more kudos for the battle-brother in his chapter's annals, if he survives, so I don't think he'd mind.
Kinda hard to compare 2 soldiers 1 on 1. Not even 2 real life speacial force guys are equal for a direct comparison to another force. In the world of warfare you have to at least compare them at a squad level. Discounting the Heroes of either side most are trained to work as a group. If you want a solo from 40kIoM then use custodes not sm.
Sorry I don't get how a Howling Banshee can be an even match for a Marine and that is ok, and no one questions it. But when an invisible man with the same basic weapons (Spartans) is considered in the same fight, the fight is obviously the Marine's...
A banshee is like a Spartans with lower strength and no invulnerable save...
Dr.Dakka wrote:Sorry I don't get how a Howling Banshee can be an even match for a Marine and that is ok, and no one questions it. But when an invisible man with the same basic weapons (Spartans) is considered in the same fight, the fight is obviously the Marine's...
A banshee is like a Spartans with lower strength and no invulnerable save...
Except that a Howling Banshee has both vastly superior technology and literally millenia of experience at fighting. A SPARTAN, on the other hand, has a few years, maximum.
Bluntly, the rawest Space Marine, just elevated from the Scout company and given his power armor, has fought on more battlefields in more varied conditions against more dangerous enemies with worse odds on his side than any SPARTAN except possibly John-117 did. They're both science-fantasy superhuman soldiers. They both use impossible technology to fight hilariously inconceivable foes. The Space Marine, though, has been doing it for longer, and is almost certainly better at it.
I'm stating Halo with my friend, we are assembling a proxy army now. Battle report will be posted.
Warthog
Or trucks are Av 10 and are scrap metal, Warthog would be Av 10 open topped. Weapon S 4 Ap 6. Basically a stubber.
Scorpion
Av 12-13 considering the last decision. We will say Av 12 because predators are Av 12. Weapon would be an auto cannon S 7 Ap 4. Would have to be to be considering the weapons are about the same.
weapons
Standard
Assault rifle
S 3, it is an auto gun after all. I would make it R 18 assault 2.
Battle rifle
Same as las gun, it is a strait auto gun.
odst
Same as kasarkin
marine
same as veteran
spartan
kasarkin stats with higher Strength and armor. This makes him S 4 with a Sv of 3+ and an invulnerable save so i give that a 5+.
More weapons.
Missile launcher
Standard S8 Ap3
Spartan Laser
Stronger than a missile launcher, able to reliably kill scorpion in one or two shots. Sounds like a lascannon, but I have aanother cool idea.
S8 Ap2 R38" Lance *
*Hits every unit in a strait line once.
Gattling turret
basically a heavy stubber S4 Ap6 R36" Heavy 3
Automatically Appended Next Post: New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Covie 40k stats
Covie Transport ships(can't remember name)
Av 13 front side and rear. Open Top
2, S 7 Ap 2 plasma cannon turrets
2, S 6 Ap 4 Plasma cannons Heavy 3
Capacity 20
That is the best we could do with that. They are heavily armored, and armed, and have insane capacities.
Hunter
S 5
T 6
W 2
Sv 3+
Their gun would be S7 Ap2 Rapid Fire Imo.
I believe that the game designers said that the difficulty setting to consider for the actualy capabilities of the weaponry of Halo was on the highest(or 2nd highest) difficulty setting.
The game is pretty easy on the lower levels, but once you get to the higher levels your Shield can barely survive more then a couple of hits from any type of weapon. The shield is basically a stop-gap protection measure till you find cover.
Power Armor on the other hand is superior to cover except against things specifically designed to kill it.
What kills power armor? Krak Missiles, Plasma weaponry, and power weapons. Krak missiles are anti-tank weapons and only just render PA useless. Plasma and PW are the only things specifically designed to cut through PA. Anything worse then PA is weak enough to be able to kill with volume of fire.
But, Space Marines still do use cover to their advantage(as much as their bulk allows them to) so they arn't going to just be foolishly walking through enemy fire. Space Marines know they arn't invincible. They don't fit the common misconception people have of them not using cover and military tactics(thats just Marine players on the table top and has to do with game mechanics and not fluff. if multiple saves could be taken, Marines would stick to cover a ton)
PA just gives them Marine the ability to withstand massive punishment if he does get hit so he doesn't have to spend tons of energy and time taking cover instead of purging the enemy. Sparten armor is similer to modern body armor, which is basically a last resort protection for the soldier. It can keep you from dying and it will stop certain rounds at certain ranges and angles, but it isn't a full spectrum protection system.
Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++
Spartan II armor can help the occupant survive planet fall without any additional equipment (like a drop pod). That being said I highly doubt a bolter could reliably kill a Spartan. Because of that I rate it a 3+/5++. They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.
If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.
Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.
Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.
I agree.
@ the last part, about surviving planetfall, remember that they die in the game after fall 25 feet.
@ the red part, I highly doubt they would have WS 4 because as we can see in the game we see they have limited skill in melee and rely on the fact that they are stronger than grunts are tough to kill.
@ the bold part, It would probable be 4+ with MAYBE a 6++. Read the IA3 description of FW armour and you'll be amazed at how resilient and tough it is, and it gets 4+. Space marine armour seems on average about 2-4" thick, and made of ceramite which is worth 3.8x it's thickness in steel. And 6++ is a maybe because in the game weapons like launchers can kill them through their armour AND shield, meaning that it isn't especially strong as a shield and is more like an augmentation for their armour, so 3+ MAY be somewhat appropriate if we include the shield. Remember, 5++ would mean they can take direct hits from rail guns and lascannons.
@ the italic part, This part indirectly compares SEALs to space marines, which is folly. SEALs=veteran guardsmen. Spartans are certainly more elite than modern day Spec. ops assaulters, but remember space marines are also taken young, and only ones who, without training, are usually already killers from worlds with the harshest life possible. In Sons of Dorn, the three neophytes were all about 12 and they had each killed MULTIPLE fully grown adult humans in a big, chaotic battle. The boys recruited to be space marines are the kind who, if they weren't discovered by the SM, would likely end up amongst the greatest heroes of the Imperial guard-Lord Commissars, warmasters etc. Their fighting skill would be far more than spartans. Especially since their training (hypno-conditioning, scouts, devastators and assault marines) last considerably longer than a century, usually. Also, 1% of every chapter is a "mage", 1% are cyborgs, 1% have power shields that put overshields to shame and crozius' and 1% are captains.
@ The underline part, remember that orks are S3, and orks are phenomenally strong, almost on par with SM, so I would put spartans at S3.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.
Orks are also stronger than IG, and daemon princes tougher than astartes, and and and...only mark the difference if it is MASSIVE
Dr.Dakka wrote:I'm stating Halo with my friend, we are assembling a proxy army now. Battle report will be posted.
Warthog
Or trucks are Av 10 and are scrap metal, Warthog would be Av 10 open topped. Weapon S 4 Ap 6. Basically a stubber.
Scorpion
Av 12-13 considering the last decision. We will say Av 12 because predators are Av 12. Weapon would be an auto cannon S 7 Ap 4. Would have to be to be considering the weapons are about the same.
weapons
Standard
Assault rifle
S 3, it is an auto gun after all. I would make it R 18 assault 2.
Battle rifle
Same as las gun, it is a strait auto gun.
odst
Same as kasarkin
marine
same as veteran
spartan
kasarkin stats with higher Strength and armor. This makes him S 4 with a Sv of 3+ and an invulnerable save so i give that a 5+.
More weapons.
Missile launcher
Standard S8 Ap3
Spartan Laser
Stronger than a missile launcher, able to reliably kill scorpion in one or two shots. Sounds like a lascannon, but I have aanother cool idea.
S8 Ap2 R38" Lance *
*Hits every unit in a strait line once.
Gattling turret
basically a heavy stubber S4 Ap6 R36" Heavy 3
Automatically Appended Next Post: New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Covie 40k stats
Covie Transport ships(can't remember name)
Av 13 front side and rear. Open Top
2, S 7 Ap 2 plasma cannon turrets
2, S 6 Ap 4 Plasma cannons Heavy 3
Capacity 20
That is the best we could do with that. They are heavily armored, and armed, and have insane capacities.
Hunter
S 5
T 6
W 2
Sv 3+
Their gun would be S7 Ap2 Rapid Fire Imo.
Marines would be bs 3. Trained troops.
Spartans would be bs 4.
Odst would be bs 4 as well. Spartans may be better but not bs 5 better.
If scorpion has an autocannon as main gun, the spartan armor is ap 4 at best. No invul save. Scorpions one shot spartans, autocannons dont one shot marines.
Brute shot does not equal bolter. Bolters would blow apart a normal man, brute shots dont.
I would like to say now to everyone posting here, thank you for your opinions, I value them and appreciate your feed back. But I strongly feel all of the above criticisms are dead wrong for the very reasons I stated. Your opinions are your opinions, but I am trying to make a table top army to compete in 40k here. We will just have agree to disagree. The stories of trumped up space marine exploits are something I write off to imperial propaganda. We have to remember the Tau a tiny minuscule people kill space marines like it is their job.... I simply don't share your faith in these so called savior of man. The fluff doesn't match the game at all, so one has to be a fallacy, and i chose to believe that fallacy exists in the fluff.
This is surely the longest ever cross-universe thread...
We are beating a dead horse here, there isn't much left to argue about. In summary: a Space Marine is equivalent to 2-3 SPARTANS, and the Master Chief is the second coming of Jesus.
Dr.Dakka wrote:I would like to say now to everyone posting here, thank you for your opinions, I value them and appreciate your feed back. But I strongly feel all of the above criticisms are dead wrong for the very reasons I stated. Your opinions are your opinions, but I am trying to make a table top army to compete in 40k here. We will just have agree to disagree. The stories of trumped up space marine exploits are something I write off to imperial propaganda. We have to remember the Tau a tiny minuscule people kill space marines like it is their job.... I simply don't share your faith in these so called savior of man. The fluff doesn't match the game at all, so one has to be a fallacy, and i chose to believe that fallacy exists in the fluff.
Value feed back? Um...I'm the OP...
And if every space marine was worth 2-3 guardsmen like on the table, why would they even exist? Spending as much resources as the imperium does on 1 million supersoldiers who can only barely surpass a baseline human who doesn't even have special training...it would be ridiculous. As it is, a company is easily the equal of a regiment, which can field men in the tens of thousands, depending on the regiment.
A chapter is usually at least the equal of a crusade. Not an exceptional crusade like macharius', mind you, but still...
And tau have enormous trouble killing marines. In the fluff marine armour soaks up pulse rounds like a vacuum cleaner, and deflect plasma rifle shots with their pauldrons. In IA3, marines were going 1-1 with crisis suits, which are ~super light dreadnoughts. They really aren't great at killing marines, in the fluff only marines are good at killing marines, on the TT only Krak and plasma is really good at killing marines. And PW.
Generally its a 10:1 ration for marines. So yeah a company is worth about a small regiment. Really the IG fights about 99.9999% of the Imperiums battles. Since marines are rare.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Generally its a 10:1 ration for marines. So yeah a company is worth about a small regiment. Really the IG fights about 99.9999% of the Imperiums battles. Since marines are rare.
10:1 was the number given from a HH quote, the other common figure is 100:1. More than that is considered fanwank, less than 10 is considered silly.
Personally, I see a line marine taking 30-50 depending on the guard they fight, and a named character taking out just about infinite because named characters can't die.
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Sorry, chap, but that's just not true. The amount of years a SM spends as a scout is, as Grey Templar says, a hell of a lot shorter than a hundred years. In fact, it's somewhere between 4-10, as sources vary.
Also, training and experience are not the same thing. Whereas training can at least prepare you for a battle, it's got nothing on actual experience when it comes down to a fight to the death.
I stand by my original estimate. A SM could take on 2, maybe 3 SPARTAN-IIs and still stand a better than 50% chance of victory, though it would almost certainly result in the SM taking some serious wounds to do so.
Still, more kudos for the battle-brother in his chapter's annals, if he survives, so I don't think he'd mind.
Remember it goes like this
Scout ==> Assault Squad
or
Scout = Devastator squad
then...
Assault Squad ==> tactical Marine
or
Devastator = Tactical marine
Tactical Marine = Sternguard or command squad or sarge
Assault Squad Sarge = Vanguard Veteran
Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Sorry, chap, but that's just not true. The amount of years a SM spends as a scout is, as Grey Templar says, a hell of a lot shorter than a hundred years. In fact, it's somewhere between 4-10, as sources vary.
Also, training and experience are not the same thing. Whereas training can at least prepare you for a battle, it's got nothing on actual experience when it comes down to a fight to the death.
I stand by my original estimate. A SM could take on 2, maybe 3 SPARTAN-IIs and still stand a better than 50% chance of victory, though it would almost certainly result in the SM taking some serious wounds to do so.
Still, more kudos for the battle-brother in his chapter's annals, if he survives, so I don't think he'd mind.
Remember it goes like this
Scout ==> Assault Squad
or
Scout = Devastator squad
then...
Assault Squad ==> tactical Marine
or
Devastator = Tactical marine
Tactical Marine = Sternguard or command squad or sarge
Assault Squad Sarge = Vanguard Veteran
Are you sure about this? I always thought Devastator squads/Longfangs were reserved for some of the most venerated and battle hardened Space Marines.
Dr.Dakka wrote: They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.
Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.
Sorry, chap, but that's just not true. The amount of years a SM spends as a scout is, as Grey Templar says, a hell of a lot shorter than a hundred years. In fact, it's somewhere between 4-10, as sources vary. Also, training and experience are not the same thing. Whereas training can at least prepare you for a battle, it's got nothing on actual experience when it comes down to a fight to the death. I stand by my original estimate. A SM could take on 2, maybe 3 SPARTAN-IIs and still stand a better than 50% chance of victory, though it would almost certainly result in the SM taking some serious wounds to do so. Still, more kudos for the battle-brother in his chapter's annals, if he survives, so I don't think he'd mind.
Remember it goes like this Scout ==> Assault Squad or Scout = Devastator squad then... Assault Squad ==> tactical Marine or Devastator = Tactical marine Tactical Marine = Sternguard or command squad or sarge Assault Squad Sarge = Vanguard Veteran
Are you sure about this? I always thought Devastator squads/Longfangs were reserved for some of the most venerated and battle hardened Space Marines.
Longfang is for veterans, but the normal progression for SM is:
Codex Space Marines 5ed pg.60 wrote:Space Marines are commonly assigned to Assault Squads after exemplary service in a Devastator Squad, where they have garnered experience in holding their ground against any foe.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the last part, about surviving planetfall, remember that they die in the game after fall 25 feet.
You can't include game mechanics as an argument. They are clearly only in place for playability. How much fun would the game be if every time you fell down you just had to wait for the game to end, or restart if playing a solo campaign?
We must instead go by the capabilities demonstated by cutscenes and novels. Spartan armour is at least as durable as astartes plate.
the red part, I highly doubt they would have WS 4 because as we can see in the game we see they have limited skill in melee and rely on the fact that they are stronger than grunts are tough to kill.
You know, I'm going to renege on my earlier comments on WS. Obviously, they are a full step above a simple IG trooper. WS4 is perfectly acceptable. It's a whole different paradigm though, where a Marine would be charging in with a chainsword, a spartan would simply be wrecking face with a shotgun.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the last part, about surviving planetfall, remember that they die in the game after fall 25 feet.
You can't include game mechanics as an argument. They are clearly only in place for playability. How much fun would the game be if every time you fell down you just had to wait for the game to end, or restart if playing a solo campaign?
We must instead go by the capabilities demonstated by cutscenes and novels. Spartan armour is at least as durable as astartes plate.
the red part, I highly doubt they would have WS 4 because as we can see in the game we see they have limited skill in melee and rely on the fact that they are stronger than grunts are tough to kill.
You know, I'm going to renege on my earlier comments on WS. Obviously, they are a full step above a simple IG trooper. WS4 is perfectly acceptable. It's a whole different paradigm though, where a Marine would be charging in with a chainsword, a spartan would simply be wrecking face with a shotgun.
That's shooting, not assault. Shotguns are a pretty universal and simple concept, and so are all fairly similar to a fair degree. Shotguns one shot spartans, and are much weaker than marines are tough and only have a str 4 ap- profile.
And also, stormtroopers are WS 3 and they are melee-ninjas. Read imperial glory. mid air assassination à la spartan. Spartans are shown to have very limited melee skills in the game, having one attack and not doing it terribly well, it sometimes takes more than a hit for grunts. They are shooters, really the parallels to stormtroopers are quite obvious, with only difference being that they might be S4. MIGHT be.
You can't include game mechanics as an argument. They are clearly only in place for playability. How much fun would the game be if every time you fell down you just had to wait for the game to end, or restart if playing a solo campaign?
We must instead go by the capabilities demonstated by cutscenes and novels. Spartan armour is at least as durable as astartes plate.
I am not talking about falling into bottomless pits. I am talking about falling a level or two and losing your shield.
You know those are extremely powerful marine shotguns, they use manstopper rounds. The shotguns in halo will be like the shotguns in the imperial guard codex which are str 3 ap -.
I don't even care anymore who would win here, I only care about the unfair comparisons.
S 3 shotgun = 12G
Halo Shotgun = 9G
9G is > that 12G
Therefore Halo Shotgun > S 3
The limited capabilities of bungie in the area of melee incorperation into a game mechanic are noted. This is a shooter after all, and designed to be fun and playable in a world prior to Xbox live.
They stuck with the gameplay that worked because you don't fix what aint broken, but spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
If you can defeat a master samurai, you are at least WS 4...
The game mechanic of 40k is meant to make any unit Atleast competitive against other armies. In my assessment I am simply applying fair and logical arguments to stats.
And seriously, Kroot are the single most useless backward ass race in 40k and they have WS 4... And Spartans would murder a mess of Kroot in combat Imo.
And the shotguns are 8guage, still going to be str 3. A lasgun blows peoples arms off, causing the bodies moisture to boil and explode. And its only str 3. The system isnt good at small varibles.
Elites are most definitely fantastic swordsman. Watch Cronicals... It is obvious.
8G 0o0 Wtfs?!
Thats huge!
That would blow a whole 3' in diameter in a person... Their top half wouldn't exist anymore...
Also blowing an arm off is child's play. A person .50 Cal round will rip the skin off a person after missing by 3 Meters. They pass through tanks with 2-4 inch armor plating at 2000 meters with relative ease. The .50 Cal sniper rifles,like the m82, are after all considered anti-tank weapons by Nato. It is because of this that it is currently Illegal to use a .50 Cal against humans in any facet of war.
Side noe the Coast Guard use .50 to pierce solid iron engine blocks to stop suspects.
This being said if a Usnc Sniper rifle is better, and we have stated it is, then you would need the.equivalent of 6-8 inches of solid steel, Imo, to stop it.
I don't know what power armor is rated to in inches of steel, but if it is less than 6-8" then the Usnc rifle should count as AP 3.
This should be especially disconcerting because the assisted rounds of the current .50 is used to regularly engage troops at over 1,600 meters in Afghanistan as we speak. The rocket assisted ones could maintain velocity and accuracy over much longer distances. I think we might be facing a range 60" Sniper rifle with AP 3 here, or atleast that is my math.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if bolter rounds have so much power, why do they have so much trouble killing orks... I mean they hardly wear armor at all and in every marine game I have played Orks take two shots to drop...
I think someone at GW needs to sit down and fine tune gak till arguments like this have definitive enings...
Dr.Dakka wrote:
Also if bolter rounds have so much power, why do they have so much trouble killing orks... I mean they hardly wear armor at all and in every marine game I have played Orks take two shots to drop...
Because orks are tough as hell to kill with any weapon. It's stated that an ork can carry on fighting effectively when horrendously injured and (a direct quote) "even for a short while after he is technically dead."
Add to this their lack of a fear of death, and you have an opponent who will stop at nothing short of being killed outright in his quest to kick your teeth in and jump up and down on your lifeless corpse.
This is why marines consider orks a worthwhile opponent, because they are built like brick houses and are ridiculously hard to kill due to their physiology.
Lets compare their foes for a second. Orks are roughly equal to brutes in terms of strength, toughness and combat prowess. Your average boy is probably better in each, but lets just assume for the sake of argument that they are equal. Now, space marines in both fluff and the game regularly kill orks in droves. Whereas Spartans, even the might Master chief, has trouble with just one or two, fluff or gamewise. I'm not going to comment either way, but I feel this should be noted.
Dr.Dakka wrote:I don't even care anymore who would win here, I only care about the unfair comparisons.
S 3 shotgun = 12G Halo Shotgun = 9G 9G is > that 12G Therefore Halo Shotgun > S 3
The limited capabilities of bungie in the area of melee incorperation into a game mechanic are noted. This is a shooter after all, and designed to be fun and playable in a world prior to Xbox live.
They stuck with the gameplay that worked because you don't fix what aint broken, but spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
If you can defeat a master samurai, you are at least WS 4...
The game mechanic of 40k is meant to make any unit Atleast competitive against other armies. In my assessment I am simply applying fair and logical arguments to stats.
And seriously, Kroot are the single most useless backward ass race in 40k and they have WS 4... And Spartans would murder a mess of Kroot in combat Imo.
They would kill a fair amount of kroot, with kroot being fairly delicate and spartans being armoured, but kroot are stronger than orks, taller than space marines and lightning fast. They use blade almost to the exclusion of their guns. Kroot massacre IG in melee. And also, the reason you can defeat elites in the game in melee is because when you hit them, they are offended and take so long to bellow a challenge you can hit them again. Also because their AI is predictable.
Also, noble team doesn't really show melee proficiency except for Noble 6 (Who is on the same level as the chief) and Emile (who is a CQC specialist). Assassination don't count because they're stupid. The best way to silently kill someone is NOT to get a piggyback from them then feed them your knife. Unless they are so confused by the stupidity of jumping on their back that they forget to fight back/call for help?
Also, halo shotguns ARE superior to IG ones, but still pale in comparison to astartes shotguns.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Yeah, I never got how Noble 6 is considered as good as the Chief... Made zero sense, he was inferior in every way possible and wasn't half as cool.
Because, being player controlled, he can take on just as many people as the chief. There was a separate category for MC and N6-Hyper-lethal.
Personally I prefer N6 to MC, don't ask why I just do. Maybe it is him having more dialogue? Makes him sorta not a faceless robot?
Dr.Dakka wrote: spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
Dr.Dakka wrote: spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
Gotta point out. . . those videos really don't support your point.
Check out the good sergeant, and how his gunfire is utterly ineffective against the Arbiter. Notice how he gets nine varieties of crap kicked out of him, and eventually wins because said Arbiter makes the utterly inexplicable decision to pick him up by the neck and hold him, totally unrestrained, up close to those squishy, totally unarmored mouthparts.
Also notice how all those Elites charging forward in a straight line are the dumbest creatures ever to exist. No evasion whatsoever; these guys are the second coming of Leeroy Jenkins. And then, I mean, hell; one of them stabs another with his pike. It isn't like he didn't have plenty of time to notice "Say, that Spartan is holding on to one of my fellow warriors!" since the dude was moving at Dramatic Movie Speed (tm).
The second one does an excellent job of demonstrating how fast and agile Spartans are. . . nearly as good a job as it does showing exactly how pathetic the Covenant are.
Point one; they are running in a straight line, down a narrow corridor, taking no evasive action whatsoever, with scores (at least) of Covenant all firing at them, full auto. They are never hit. Not once. And no, this isn't evidence that Spartans are awesome, because with only a single exception (Spartan jumps over a Brute's line of fire) they aren't even bothering to dodge. The Covenant are simply incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn.
Point two; Elites attack, with energy swords. One of the Spartans promptly parries an energy sword. . . with his rifle. What that tells us is that energy swords are largely useless weapons. Riddle me this; if an energy sword can cut through Spartan armor, and Spartan armor can survive re-entry and protect the Spartan beneath it, then how is it that a rifle blocks it? And no, he isn't parrying the handle, the blade distinctly slams into the rifle and is held off.
In short; if that's what you're going with as an indication of Spartan combat prowess, sorry, the Space Marines will beat them like a pinata.
Dr.Dakka wrote: spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
Okay so to prove your point, you post a video of spartans shooting shield-less elites with weapon that space marine armour (and even skin) is immune to, with the elites there clearly being clueless, and the one actual melee attack actually made was a swipe at the head of an elite aimed specifically at the thickest part of armour on it's head, which did absolutely nothing, with the elite not even being dazed..
And another fan made video of spartans running and shooting and fighting in melee for 2 seconds, that was, once again, fan made.
Not one of the tactics they tried against the elites in the first video would work against space marines. Running and jumping at them?
2 possible results.
1) they bounce off the Space marine.
2) They are speared on chainswords before they get there.
It would be like fighting Hunters with no skin exposed, and the hunters being as nimble and maneuverable as the Spartans, and more skilled, and with faster-firing weapons. And being able to kill you with their spit.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Yeah, I never got how Noble 6 is considered as good as the Chief... Made zero sense, he was inferior in every way possible and wasn't half as cool.
Because, being player controlled, he can take on just as many people as the chief. There was a separate category for MC and N6-Hyper-lethal.
Personally I prefer N6 to MC, don't ask why I just do. Maybe it is him having more dialogue? Makes him sorta not a faceless robot?
Also, his death scene was the balls.
I prefer N7 myself.
But you hit it on the head, N6 is as good as the MC due to the player playing him in a game.
YOu do realize in some parts of the background (Most notably in the horus heresy) That space marines do use aerial movements it may be heavy armor but to them its like a midday stroll.
Terminators are not agile. Space marines are very agile. Their joints are extremely flexible.
Space marines can also spit acid so good luck spartans...
Spartan twos were almost completely annihilated I remember.
They had very few at the end of the war. And plus the fan-made video made. If you can use videos like that... Then I can use this...
Then...
That is a squad of them... Vs an eldar elite strike force.
Now lets remember. There are tons of lore of how op space marines are... Its actually funny they are ridiculously over powered.
And even if we tone down marine achievements for hyperbole we still have insane killing machines.
Caliber of opponents is a good measure of strength.
Orks: It can take multiple bolt rounds to put one down. You can severe an orks head and graft it onto a new body and it will survive. The psychic Waaagh field also increases the strength of these beasts and lets them do impossable things, especially with technology. Space Marines can take on dozens of these guys by themselves, although they certaintly don't fight on the orks terms.
Tyranids: Endless swarms of gribblies, each much larger then a man, many larger then battletanks. Space marines kill these guys in their thousands.
Eldar: Human sized and about the same ability to resist damage, but backed up by latent psychic technology. These guys have guns that shoot molecule thin disks of diamond hard substances that can shred the human body in seconds. A marine is largely impervious to these guys weapons and the regular old Eldar will literally pop like a water balloon when hit by a bolt round.
Daemons: The will of dark gods made physical reality. Blades made up of the pure thought of a diety. Flesh that doesn't regester pain, damage, or succumb to injury. Creatures held together by pure will. Yet still Space Marines can and do slaughter these abominations, albiet at extreme cost.
@Asherian Command- Those videos weren't fanmade. They're a bit of an anime and a cutscene from Halo Wars.
When do Space Marines do flips in the HH?
I don't know why you wouldn't be able to use those videos as proof of space marine prowess regardless.
How is spitting acid going to help the SM? If the SM is missing his helmet, the spartan gets a huge advantage.
@im2randomhgh- Since when has SM skin been immune to bullets?
You keep trying to point at gameplay limitations as evidence of spartan limits. This is analagous to arguing that anything that hits a SM will get through the armor a third of the time.
@ Berzerker- " Riddle me this; if an energy sword can cut through Spartan armor, and Spartan armor can survive re-entry and protect the Spartan beneath it, then how is it that a rifle blocks it?"
That would seem to imply that the stanard issue UNSC rifle is built to withstand exposure to plasma.
---
Space Marines are far too variable in their capabilities for this sort of contest. Sometimes they're invincible war-gods, impervious to the attempts of mortals to injure them. At other times they're getting snuck up upon and strangled with roots by lowly guardsmen.
Perhaps the MA5 rifle was designed to be used as a last ditch protective measure against covenant close combat weaponry? Perhaps the cutscene animators didn't really think too hard about how this affected the consistency of the potentcy of covenenat plasma swords?
What exactly are you trying to prove? This does nothing to disprove the capabilities of the covenant plasma weaponry or the protective capabilities of the MJOLNIR armor.
b1soul wrote:Captain Titus vs. Master Chief would be a great fight (for 5 seconds before Titus wins)
This.
@im2randomhgh- Since when has SM skin been immune to bullets?
It was either in Flight of the Eisenstein, or in the novel before it where they were loading up the eisenstein, but while the Iacton (that was his name right? The half heard?) was fighting traitor marines aboard the ship, one of the humans fired a stub pistol at a space marine as a distraction, commenting that even with the armour it would not be able to hurt the space marine.
@im2randomhgh- Since when has SM skin been immune to bullets?
It was either in Flight of the Eisenstein, or in the novel before it where they were loading up the eisenstein, but while the Iacton (that was his name right? The half heard?) was fighting traitor marines aboard the ship, one of the humans fired a stub pistol at a space marine as a distraction, commenting that even with the armour it would not be able to hurt the space marine.
Not so much the skin but the bone that did it, and that has been contradicted by a lot of fluff since.
However, the point still stands - to an extent.
@im2randomhgh- Since when has SM skin been immune to bullets?
It was either in Flight of the Eisenstein, or in the novel before it where they were loading up the eisenstein, but while the Iacton (that was his name right? The half heard?) was fighting traitor marines aboard the ship, one of the humans fired a stub pistol at a space marine as a distraction, commenting that even with the armour it would not be able to hurt the space marine.
Not so much the skin but the bone that did it, and that has been contradicted by a lot of fluff since.
However, the point still stands - to an extent.
Well not the entire space marines body is lined with bone. Therefore, for the stub pistol to be incapable of hurting a space marine, it would need to be a property of his skin being bullet-proof/resistant. Also, their fused rib plate would likely be able to deflect arms of an altogether higher caliber than a stub pistol.
Also, in the Dark Hunters short story in heroes of the Space marines, an unarmoured, crippled space marine takes an entire clip from a lasgun (individual shots can blow off human arms) to the abdomen without dying-or slowing. He proceeded to murder the men who had shot him with his bare hands. He also killed a traitor space marine and an enormous amount of humans, all after he was hit by thirty lasgun shots.
@im2randomhgh- Since when has SM skin been immune to bullets?
It was either in Flight of the Eisenstein, or in the novel before it where they were loading up the eisenstein, but while the Iacton (that was his name right? The half heard?) was fighting traitor marines aboard the ship, one of the humans fired a stub pistol at a space marine as a distraction, commenting that even with the armour it would not be able to hurt the space marine.
Not so much the skin but the bone that did it, and that has been contradicted by a lot of fluff since.
However, the point still stands - to an extent.
Well not the entire space marines body is lined with bone. Therefore, for the stub pistol to be incapable of hurting a space marine, it would need to be a property of his skin being bullet-proof/resistant. Also, their fused rib plate would likely be able to deflect arms of an altogether higher caliber than a stub pistol.
Also, in the Dark Hunters short story in heroes of the Space marines, an unarmoured, crippled space marine takes an entire clip from a lasgun (individual shots can blow off human arms) to the abdomen without dying-or slowing. He proceeded to murder the men who had shot him with his bare hands. He also killed a traitor space marine and an enormous amount of humans, all after he was hit by thirty lasgun shots.
The point I was trying to make was that 40K fluff is massively contradictory. There are also stories in which a lasgun has popped a SM after hitting him in the skull, and in the Ciaphas Cain stuff, a Khornate Berserker is killed by the eopnymous commissar - after, it must be said, having taken a lot of las-wounds previously.
Dr.Dakka wrote: spartains have many melee attacks.
This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.
This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.
No. It doesn't. These were some of the worst, most half assed action scenes I've ever seen. Therefore it doesn't prove anything. Seriously, the reaction times of the elites were ridiculously sluggish, not to mention that they did not give the impression of being expert melee warriors at all.
Space Marines arn't immune to bullets so much as they are bullet resistant.
Their ribcages are completely fused and rigid and their bones are different from normal human bone(Ceramic compounds are mentioned, gained from dietary supplements)
Bullets will have a nearly impossable task of getting through this inbuilt body armor. They would have to be extremely powerful/armor piercing to do it.
Secondly, we have the enhanced Astartes body itself.
Most gunshot related deaths arn't caused by the bullets actual damage, IE; the tissue that the bullet actually passes through and puts a hole in. Death is caused by either bleeding out OR from Hydrostatic shock. Bleeding to death is prevented by the Larremen cells that can create a clot almost instantly, only unable to work if the wound is simply too large. Hydrostatic shock isn't specifically adressed, but the toughened tissues of a marine will reduce thee damage from this effect.
These 2 extra features will protect a marine that gets hit in his fleshy bits.
Astartes muscle is far denser then a normal human(and has more mass) and will be tougher for a bullet to penetrate.
Lasguns are more effective then a solid slug projectile because they can superheat the water in the marine's body very quickly. The rapid boiling of the water will blow out the area hit and cause deeper burns. A solid slug projectile(that relies on the target bleeding or suffering some critical organ damaged) has less damage potential.
To be fair, I did mention that a SPARTAN-II was a hell of a lot faster than a SM, but that got drowned out with "that's impossible, they're not Eldar."
Brother Coa wrote:
Could a 1000 Space Marines stand against Covenant on Reach?
Could 1000 SPARTANS stood against Tyranids on Macragge?
No. And no.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And N6 and the Chief are in the same category of "Hyper Lethal Vector" despite the Chief being superior in every way and having far more kills on his record.
There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.
verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.
When I sid 1000 Marines I also tough that you guys would know that Chapter Fleet and Armory and PDF and Guard Regiments and AA Planetary Laser batteries and Adeptus Mechanicus War Machines would also be included. 1000 MArine alone cn't do anything, same goes for 1000 SPARTANS. But Marines have Imperial Guard and SPARTANS have UNSC troops.
Why I always much mentioned everything? Can you all alone concur that Marines always go with some support in battle...
verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.
You sure?
What was the length of that ship in Kilometers?
Imperial Battleships(including Battlebarges) are around 6.5-7 kilometers in length depending on the class. Torpedoes are the size of our modern day skyscrapers, having an insanely huge Fusion warhead to match.
Yeah, I read 'em earlier. You're not quite understanding what people mean when they say that Space Marines are "over the top". We mean that it seems like GW anticipated these very arguments, and deliberately set out to make Space Marines unquestionably more badass than any other genetically modified supersoldier in any other piece of fiction. Let's break it down.
There is one ability which SPARTANS receive from their biological implants and Space Marines don't, directly; improved reflex action speed, due to faster neurotransmission. That is, indeed, an important advantage; although it should be noted that even in this area Space Marines aren't clearly behind, as they receive years of intense hypno-therapy and chemical conditioning which is designed to give them this very ability, along with many others. But let's leave that aside and focus only on the physical implants for now.
Space Marine biological improvements give them a host of OTHER advantages, which more than compensate. Here's a list, leaving out those that SPARTANS also possess, such as super-dense muscle, hardened bones, and enhanced eyesight; we'll assume that SPARTAN biotech and Space Marine biotech are equally efficient for the purpose of this discussion, so those enhancements that they both have we won't count on either side. Furthermore, we won't bother to mention those enhancements which Space Marines possess, but are not directly relevant to a combat scenario. The particular implant which provides each enhancement is also listed.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
-Increased blood supply and redundant circulatory organs, both increasing a Space Marine's strength and speed by supplying far more oxygen and nutrients to his muscles than a human (or SPARTAN) can, and allowing him to survive normally catastrophic damage to his original heart. (Secondary heart)
-Increased oxygen-carrying efficiency of blood, allowing a Space Marine to draw more energy from a given amount of oxygen than normal. (Haemastamen)
-Increased oxygen capacity due to additional lung volume, allowing Space Marines to function in environments too oxygen-poor for humans to survive. (Multi-lung)
-The ability to absorb oxygen from toxic environments without injury. This includes the ability to breathe and function normally underwater.(Multi-lung)
-The ability to form scar tissue within seconds after suffering an injury, preventing blood loss and infection from wounds. (Larraman's Organ)
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
-Protection against extreme temperatures and low-pressure environments, including limited protection even from vacuum. (Mucranoid, Melanochrome to some extent)
-Direct neural connection to the machine-spirit of their personal suit of power armor, essentially allowing them to react and move much more quickly and flexibly than is possible without such a connection. This is why Astartes power armor is personal; only one Space Marine can connect to a given suit in this manner, and it must be individually adapted to that particular Space Marine. (Black Carapace)
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
A SPARTAN has reinforced bones; a Space Marine has reinforced bones AND has grown them into a suit of bullet-proof plate armor around his internal organs, which makes him much more resistant to injury.
A SPARTAN has enhanced musculature; a Space Marine has enhanced musculature AND more efficient oxygen transfer AND more oxygen circulating overall, so unless you want to argue that the SPARTAN augmentation is by itself more effective than all of those put together (which you can't, since Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancement work identically) a Space Marine is much stronger than a SPARTAN, and faster as well.
A SPARTAN has enhanced eyesight; a Space Marine has enhanced eyesight AND improved hearing (over which can exercise conscious control to the point of selectively focusing on certain sounds) AND can find his enemies by smell alone, which means that he's nearly always going to be the ambusher rather than the ambushee.
In addition to all this a Space Marine can function normally in environments where a SPARTAN would quickly die; maneuver and remain indefinitely in places that a SPARTAN cannot either see into or fight in (such as deep underwater); fight without sleep, unimpaired, for an extended period (permitting him to keep the SPARTAN under continuous pressure until he started to make mistakes due to fatigue); and survive injuries that would kill a SPARTAN immediately, including flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma. A SPARTAN is less physically capable than a Space Marine in every aspect of warfare, and on top of that the average Space Marine will have literally decades of experience over any SPARTAN-II.
None of this is 'fanwank'. I haven't made any of this up, it comes straight from the Codex and official materials. I don't play Space Marines, and I don't particularly like it that they're so over the top and Mary Sue-ish, but I do mind your claim that noting the fact that Space Marines are ludicrously powerful even in comparison to other sci-fi supersoldiers somehow removes my objectivity.
And, by the way, here's a handy source where you can read up on and confirm all of this, if you like. All sourced straight to the Codex and easily confirmable, so yes, this is official.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines
verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies. Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.
Say what you want about a spartan vs space marine, but the IN would dominate most of the sci fi fleets.
Draigo wrote:In darkhunters he takes a whole clip.. In Counters first book gk fell to lasgun fire.. So yea contradictory for sure.
Well I guess it depends where you get hit. Space marines have a lot of redundancy in their bodies, but I can't imagine a lasbeam in the brain not killing them, or anything really.
And there was a lot more than 1 clip from a lasgun that took down the GK.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies. Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.
Say what you want about a spartan vs space marine, but the IN would dominate most of the sci fi fleets.
Also, Emperor class ships aren't much smaller than the supercarrier, and when you account for width and thickness...and the IoM's vastly superior tech, numbers and scale...IN would eat the Supercarrier. Also, Imperial Starforts are much, much larger. Ex: The Phalanx is the size of a moon. Phalanx could probably dock the Supercarrier.
Where ground combat is concerned...a Space Marine chapter could have EASILY repelled the assault on reach. The Crimson fists had about 200 marines defending against an Ork WAAAGH! (An ork WAAAGH! is so much bigger than the assault on reach...tens of millions of orks, and their numbers will start replenishing themselves after a few weeks into the campaign) And these orks would likely outnumber the grunts in the invasion force will being about the equivalent of a brute, only harder to kill. And the Crimson fists held them for WEEKS with having lost only a few dozen marines. They only needed reinforcements once the orks built gargants. No weapon in the UNSC could kill a titan, short of a super MAC.
IN is some kind of ridiculous. The escorts capital ships in get in 40k are bigger than star destroyers.
Yeah, I read 'em earlier. You're not quite understanding what people mean when they say that Space Marines are "over the top". We mean that it seems like GW anticipated these very arguments, and deliberately set out to make Space Marines unquestionably more badass than any other genetically modified supersoldier in any other piece of fiction. Let's break it down.
There is one ability which SPARTANS receive from their biological implants and Space Marines don't, directly; improved reflex action speed, due to faster neurotransmission. That is, indeed, an important advantage; although it should be noted that even in this area Space Marines aren't clearly behind, as they receive years of intense hypno-therapy and chemical conditioning which is designed to give them this very ability, along with many others. But let's leave that aside and focus only on the physical implants for now.
Space Marine biological improvements give them a host of OTHER advantages, which more than compensate. Here's a list, leaving out those that SPARTANS also possess, such as super-dense muscle, hardened bones, and enhanced eyesight; we'll assume that SPARTAN biotech and Space Marine biotech are equally efficient for the purpose of this discussion, so those enhancements that they both have we won't count on either side. Furthermore, we won't bother to mention those enhancements which Space Marines possess, but are not directly relevant to a combat scenario. The particular implant which provides each enhancement is also listed.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
-Increased blood supply and redundant circulatory organs, both increasing a Space Marine's strength and speed by supplying far more oxygen and nutrients to his muscles than a human (or SPARTAN) can, and allowing him to survive normally catastrophic damage to his original heart. (Secondary heart)
-Increased oxygen-carrying efficiency of blood, allowing a Space Marine to draw more energy from a given amount of oxygen than normal. (Haemastamen)
-Increased oxygen capacity due to additional lung volume, allowing Space Marines to function in environments too oxygen-poor for humans to survive. (Multi-lung)
-The ability to absorb oxygen from toxic environments without injury. This includes the ability to breathe and function normally underwater.(Multi-lung)
-The ability to form scar tissue within seconds after suffering an injury, preventing blood loss and infection from wounds. (Larraman's Organ)
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
-Protection against extreme temperatures and low-pressure environments, including limited protection even from vacuum. (Mucranoid, Melanochrome to some extent)
-Direct neural connection to the machine-spirit of their personal suit of power armor, essentially allowing them to react and move much more quickly and flexibly than is possible without such a connection. This is why Astartes power armor is personal; only one Space Marine can connect to a given suit in this manner, and it must be individually adapted to that particular Space Marine. (Black Carapace)
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
A SPARTAN has reinforced bones; a Space Marine has reinforced bones AND has grown them into a suit of bullet-proof plate armor around his internal organs, which makes him much more resistant to injury.
A SPARTAN has enhanced musculature; a Space Marine has enhanced musculature AND more efficient oxygen transfer AND more oxygen circulating overall, so unless you want to argue that the SPARTAN augmentation is by itself more effective than all of those put together (which you can't, since Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancement work identically) a Space Marine is much stronger than a SPARTAN, and faster as well.
A SPARTAN has enhanced eyesight; a Space Marine has enhanced eyesight AND improved hearing (over which can exercise conscious control to the point of selectively focusing on certain sounds) AND can find his enemies by smell alone, which means that he's nearly always going to be the ambusher rather than the ambushee.
In addition to all this a Space Marine can function normally in environments where a SPARTAN would quickly die; maneuver and remain indefinitely in places that a SPARTAN cannot either see into or fight in (such as deep underwater); fight without sleep, unimpaired, for an extended period (permitting him to keep the SPARTAN under continuous pressure until he started to make mistakes due to fatigue); and survive injuries that would kill a SPARTAN immediately, including flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma. A SPARTAN is less physically capable than a Space Marine in every aspect of warfare, and on top of that the average Space Marine will have literally decades of experience over any SPARTAN-II.
None of this is 'fanwank'. I haven't made any of this up, it comes straight from the Codex and official materials. I don't play Space Marines, and I don't particularly like it that they're so over the top and Mary Sue-ish, but I do mind your claim that noting the fact that Space Marines are ludicrously powerful even in comparison to other sci-fi supersoldiers somehow removes my objectivity.
And, by the way, here's a handy source where you can read up on and confirm all of this, if you like. All sourced straight to the Codex and easily confirmable, so yes, this is official.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines
Brilliant.
Also, Even before factoring the hearts and multi lung and everything a space marine has, we can physically see their muscle mass is quite a bit greater than spartans, being roughly twice as wide and almost a foot taller on average.
Also, Space Marine bones are made, in large part, of ceramite, the same stuff as their armour. Spartan bones only have 3% additives, which isn't very much. I'd say this goes to space marines as well.
And I would like to clarify, much as BeRzErKeR did, that i am not a marine player, nor am I a marine fan.
I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.
I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.
I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.
Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.
Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.
Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.
Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.
Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.
I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.
I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.
I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear) -Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis) I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.
Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.
Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.
Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.
Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.
Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.
About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.
You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.
Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.
Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies.
We don't really know how advanced UNSC or IN ships are. It's not that simple to compare them. For example, unlike extremely advanced IN ships, UNSC (and Covenant) ships can jump space with 99% probability that they will get on their exact destination, without getting raped by daemons, or getting lost in time, or growing crab claws etc...
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.
Range doesn't matter in this case. As i said, ships in Halo universe can do light speed jumping with extreme precision (at least compared to 40 universe). Whats the point of 100 000km range advantage, when they can simply teleport hundreds of meters above you. And tbh, i'm not sure that we have enough info to compare their sub light speed capabilities.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.
Well, they do also have assault carriers which are 5-6 km long. And we can't really judge their fighting capabilities just by comparing the strength of their armor. (Dark Eldar agree with me 100% on this one )
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.
Don't underestimate the Elites. They are extremely honor obsessed (and 2.5 meters tall).
I'm not saying that Covenant fleet is better than IN, or that it's even on par with IN. I'm just saying that the Covenant army shouldn't be underestimated, and that it's a respectable fighting force even on 40k scale.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.
True, but a Spartan has a working penis. Imho: Working penis >>>> second heart and third lung.
im2randomghgh wrote:About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.
A second heart isn't THAT useful. It increases bloodflow, sure, but if one gets ruined the loss of pressure will render the other one inoperable anwyay.
You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.
As anyone would have to be left behind. It wasn't a small hole in his suit, it was a large abdominal wound. A Marine attempting to go EVA under those circumstances would also be turned inside out.
Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.
Fair enough.
Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.
Erm, no, the link with spartan armour is much more advanced than astartes black carapace, and spartans are stronger, if anything.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies.
We don't really know how advanced UNSC or IN ships are. It's not that simple to compare them. For example, unlike extremely advanced IN ships, UNSC (and Covenant) ships can jump space with 99% probability that they will get on their exact destination, without getting raped by daemons, or getting lost in time, or growing crab claws etc...
Indeed, by comparison, UNSC ships not only do things more reliably, but much more accurately too. Who's to say they aren't the most advanced?
verterdegete wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.
Well, they do also have assault carriers which are 5-6 km long. And we can't really judge their fighting capabilities just by comparing the strength of their armor. (Dark Eldar agree with me 100% on this one )
Agreed. DE and Eldar ships (usually about escort ship size, i.e. 1500m long) regularly run rings around the large, well-armoured and massively unwieldy ships of the Imperium, and are regarded as a 'legitimate threat.' Given how precisely Cov ships can move, there's no reason to assume that they can't do exactly the same thing.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.
Elites will almost always fight to the death in almost every situation they are presented with. I think they match the SM there.
To try and present an unbiased point, from what I have read already let us assume that Spartans and Space Marines have approximately equal strength. Secondly, let us assume that the Spartan is fighting a Codex chapter marine. Also, I am ignoring the purpose each was created. S-IIs for BAMF spec-ops soldiers by normal humans and Space Marines to conquer the galaxy and created by demi-god level being.
By scenario-
Unarmed, naked, and locked in a room (No groin punches)-Spartan will most likely be faster/more responsive outside his/her armor, but space marine will be more resilient. While S-IIs may have increased bone density and denser muscles, space marines have augmentations which provide more durability. Space Marine wins unless Spartan gets a good 1st punch to the eyes or something like that after a decent length fight. How many can the marine kill-1. With two or more Spartans the equation changes considerably-While a marine has spent most of his life fighting in a group, the Spartans grew up together after being kidnapped-Stronger personal bond and better teamwork IMO. Also, the Spartans are more willing to try unorthodox tactics, and 2 targets force the marine to divide up his attention and swings.
Armor only, H2H fight locked in a room- Power armor is tougher, but the Spartan gets regenerating energy shields and bio-foam injectors start to offset the advantage of Laraman Cells. I am choosing to say offsets because since Larraman Cells actually enable the marine to create scar tissue, whereas biofoam most likely has a limited supply. The Spartan's armor also has less bulk than the marine's. Not enough information on how quickly MJOLNIR shields regenerate, how long bio-foam injectors can be used and how they are affected when the armor takes a beating, and the weaknesses of power armor. Not enough information to make a call. In a 5 on 5 or other team fight I would say marines would win because their armor does not rely on shields and it is physically hardr and does not have as many areas with obviously lesser amounts of plating, which would make more of a difference when you can spread out or bunch up.
1 on 1 weapons and armor-Assuming Spartan brings sniper or laser, the Spartan has a decent chance. The spartan laser is most likely similar to a lascannon, and the sniper rifle can be used to shoot at the marine's eye lenses or armor joints. However, the marine has a bolter, and a few shots from it will probably kill the Spartan. If the spartan shoots and hits first, he will most likely win, and if the marine does, the spartan will sneak away and shoot again after his shields regenerate. The marine wants to get into close combat, where the chainsword or even Astartes knife gives him the advantage. If the Spartan has an energy sword/hammer it will be an almost even fight against a power sword IMO, Spartan wins against chainsword with an energy sword.
-Outcome depends on the following-Who strikes first
-Does either expend his ammo and does the spartan run out of cover spots
-What close combat weapons do the two have-energy sword/gravity hammers against power fists/thunder hammers the Spartan wins as the Marine's weapons
hinder his mobility. Energy Sword against power sword marine has an advantage as his sword is made for a human hand/fighting style. Please bring up other
scenarios.
10 man squad of Spartans against 10 Man tac squad, both dropped off on battlefield on battlefield (them only, no others)
-Spartans bring spartan laser and sniper
-Marines bring ML and special weapon-probably plasma?
Spartans-let me know what you think their battle plan is. I think they would split up and use cover/concealment to try and get the 1st shot on the marines
Marines-Combat squad, go hunting but do it very very obviously
Again, it depends on who strikes first, runs out of ammo first, or if they get into close combat. One important thing is that if a marine dies, Spartan picks up a bolter. If a space marine, even out of ammo and has no way to get some from the other marines, he doesn't touch that heretical technology.
Please let me know what you think of my analysis and provide feedback
BTNeophyte wrote:
1 on 1 weapons and armor-Assuming Spartan brings sniper or laser, the Spartan has a decent chance. The spartan laser is most likely similar to a lascannon, and the sniper rifle can be used to shoot at the marine's eye lenses or armor joints. However, the marine has a bolter, and a few shots from it will probably kill the Spartan. If the spartan shoots and hits first, he will most likely win, and if the marine does, the spartan will sneak away and shoot again after his shields regenerate. The marine wants to get into close combat, where the chainsword or even Astartes knife gives him the advantage. If the Spartan has an energy sword/hammer it will be an almost even fight against a power sword IMO, Spartan wins against chainsword with an energy sword.
-Outcome depends on the following-Who strikes first
-Does either expend his ammo and does the spartan run out of cover spots
-What close combat weapons do the two have-energy sword/gravity hammers against power fists/thunder hammers the Spartan wins as the Marine's weapons
hinder his mobility. Energy Sword against power sword marine has an advantage as his sword is made for a human hand/fighting style. Please bring up other
scenarios.
10 man squad of Spartans against 10 Man tac squad, both dropped off on battlefield on battlefield (them only, no others)
-Spartans bring spartan laser and sniper
-Marines bring ML and special weapon-probably plasma?
Spartans-let me know what you think their battle plan is. I think they would split up and use cover/concealment to try and get the 1st shot on the marines
Marines-Combat squad, go hunting but do it very very obviously
Again, it depends on who strikes first, runs out of ammo first, or if they get into close combat. One important thing is that if a marine dies, Spartan picks up a bolter. If a space marine, even out of ammo and has no way to get some from the other marines, he doesn't touch that heretical technology.
Please let me know what you think of my analysis and provide feedback
Thanks
Spartan lasers are not lascannons. They supposedly cannot kill a tank in one hit. That said, it should still cause quite a bit of damage. Another problem is that you are assuming that the spartan has a 100% chance of hitting the eyes with each shot. That is wrong, as it would be very, very difficult to do so at a safe range. Headshots wouldn't work because the marine's helmet would block it, and even if it does hit the eye, it will have to bypass the lens, which I expect have been designed to be very tough.
Another problem you have with your analysis that you are assuming that marines cannot fight subtly and will just go all gung ho hunter killer on the spartans. That is incorrect, as they are in fact capable of using tactics and planning ambushes. They are, after all, humanities greatest warriors.
Good luck to the Spartan if he can get the damned bolter to work. They look very unwieldy.
There are still people favorite SPARTANS over the Astartes? The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.
SPARTANS did a hell of a job to, nearly all killed and Mankind evading extermination just barely.
I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.
-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.
I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.
I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.
So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.
The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.
Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.
Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.
Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.
Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.
Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.
Yay, reasonable discussion!
I'm not going to quote-cut your post; I'll just talk about your points in order. I'll bold each argument to make the wall o' text easier to section up.
First: improved lactate recovery versus better oxygenation. I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis.
The reason is twofold; first, that it's not clear that lactate even hinders muscle contraction; and second, that even if it is a hindrance, preventing muscle fibers from going anaerobic (through increased oxygenation), or even slowing down the process, is a much more efficient way of increasing effective strength and endurance.
This is a case where Bungee actually tripped themselves up, because they put a little too much real science in their pseudoscience; since the Halo games have come out there's been further research on muscle fatigue, and it's been discovered that lactate both hinders muscular activity (by lowering the sensitivity of certain contractile tissues to a particular calcium ion) and also aids muscular activity by increasing the amount of calcium which is present, as well as neutralizing the limiting effects of potassium buildup! That being so, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the net result is a hindrance, the benefit is still at least partially counteracting itself, and it certainly won't be very efficient.
Space Marines use a much more straightforward and efficient method; they simply pour more oxygen into the muscular tissue to allow it to respirw freely even while working hard. For one thing, that by itself prevents the production of practically all of the byproducts of muscular exertion, since they can only be produced in an anaerobic environment; and for another, aerobic respiration is about nineteen times more efficient than anaerobic. That means that the SPARTAN MEI proteins cut in too late; they slow down lactate buildup, yes, but by the time lactate buildup is occurring at any speed your muscle fibers have already run out of oxygen, and as a consequence are now requiring nineteen times as much energy input to do the same amount of work. The Space Marine implants, by contrast, are going to work much more efficiently simply because they're preventing an anaerobic environment from ever occurring in the muscle tissue; that means that a Space Marine is going to be using a lot less energy to exert the same amount of force as a SPARTAN, which translates to greater strength, greater speed, and greater endurance.
In short, the SPARTAN enhancement is cutting in after deterioration has started and then slowing down the rate at which it multiplies; the Space Marine enhancement begins working sooner and prevents deterioration from ever occurring, or at least begins counteracting it at an earlier point in the process. This means that, even if a SPARTAN and a Space Marine have exactly the same peak strength and speed, a Space Marine is going to remain at peak functionality for far longer, and when he does begin to suffer from fatigue the effects are going to appear more slowly, than the SPARTAN will.
Functioning in a low-oxygen environment; Fair enough, in most cases it wouldn't matter. Do note, however, that in combination with the ability to breathe in a poisonous atmosphere this means that in some circumstances SPARTANs would be sharply time-limited (by the amount of breathable air their armor contains) while Space Marines would not; for instance, if SPARTANS and Space Marines were fighting on a polluted industrial world or in the aftermath of a virus-bombing the Space Marines could safely breathe the air, and the SPARTANs couldn't. This is a decided increase in tactical flexibility for a space-going military force, and it is a great benefit in general; but I agree, assuming we're talking about the two forces meeting on an Earth-like world, it's not very important.
Immunity to toxins: In a face-to-face combat situation, effectively all this does is render chemical and biological weapons ineffective. Mustard gas won't bother Space Marines much, for instance, even if you can manage to get it inside their armor. But since the SPARTANs have never demonstrated the use of that kind of weapon, I agree, that can be left out of this comparison.
Larraman's Organ versus biofoam injectors: Here I'm going to disagree again, though only conditionally.
Biofoam injectors are specifically called out as a temporary, emergency measure; they hold things in place temporarily and stop bleeding. In a brief engagement, I agree; they're just as good as Larraman cells are as a short-term solution, so if a Space Marine and a SPARTAN are just going to fight for an hour and then part ways, this is a wash.
However, I think if Space Marines and SPARTANs were to be heavily engaged with each other for any length of time, the comparison would rapidly get worse for the SPARTANs. The difference is that Larraman's Organ does NOT provide temporary first aid, it allows for a rapid and permanent healing process to begin at once. Biofoam is a first-aid measure that you use to stabilize somebody before medevac can get there. It's specifically called out as such, in fact. Biofoam breaks down and becomes useless after a few hours; if you haven't gotten surgical treatment by that time you're just as badly off as you were originally, unless you apply ANOTHER dose of biofoam.
Larraman's Organ, by contrast, simply supercharges the body's natural healing process. It literally creates instant scar tissue; as long as a bone isn't broken or a vital organ isn't badly traumatized, the wound is basically healed by the Larraman cells. The seal created by Larraman cells is biologically identical to the Space Marine's own flesh; if a Space Marine suffers a flesh wound, even a deep and damaging one, Larraman's Organ scars it over and within seconds, it's as if the injury is weeks old. No, it isn't an immediate, full repair, but it goes much further than simply filling the gash with anti-bacterial foam. A SPARTAN who suffers a severe flesh wound has to get surgical aid within a few hours, or the foam will degrade and he'll be just as badly wounded as ever; a Space Marine who suffers a severe flesh wound will recover rapidly and without help, not even needing a re-application of Larraman cells. This is what I meant when I said Space Marines are capable of "flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma".
Over a campaign of days, weeks or months, the Space Marines would gain a definite advantage in this area. Either a SPARTAN or a Space Marine will need medical treatment for a very serious wound, but the Space Marines will recover much more easily from any wound that isn't life-threatening. They are going to recover rapidly and without outside aid; a SPARTAN who suffers a flesh wound, by contrast, is going to need specialized help (which will aggravate the wound again; surgery is always traumatic to at least some extent) and will have a longer recovery time afterwards before he's back to full effectiveness. So over any extended time period Larraman's Organ is far more effective as field medicine than biofoam is, and the advantage will continue to build upon itself as long as the fighting lasts.
And as a final point, Space Marine armor also includes first-aid provisions, which I would assume are designed to function in conjunction with Larraman's Organ, probably by providing reinforcement to wounds too big or too serious (either chunks of missing flesh or shattered bones) for the Organ to repair alone, and likely also injecting copious amounts of stimulants. If nothing else, biological regeneration + technological medical help > technological medical help alone.
Speed, agility and reaction time: I don't think either agility or speed is necessarily in favor of the SPARTANs.
Speed-wise, as I pointed out above, the differences between Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancements indicate that Space Marines have both greater muscular power AND longer endurance; a SPARTAN might beat a Space Marine in a sprint (though there isn't any evidence of that), but a long pursuit would certainly be won by the Space Marine, as he would be able to maintain high speed longer and with shorter rest periods. In combination with the effects of the Catalepsean Node, this means that Space Marines actually have significantly greater tactical mobility than SPARTANs.
In regards to agility and reaction time, as I pointed out, it's explicitly noted that Space Marines receive years of hypno-therapy and medical treatment designed to not only radically reduce their reaction time but also allow them a high degree of conscious control over their metabolisms and nervous systems. How that compares in effectiveness to the biotech modification that SPARTANs receive to their neural system, we simply don't know, but to discount it entirely doesn't seem reasonable. Furthermore, the connection provided by the Black Carapace to power armor is just as powerful as the Spartan Neural Interface (as it's described in almost exactly the same way), and all Astartes power armor apparently contains its own machine spirit/AI, which due to the Black Carapace can essentially read the Space Marine's mind and react with no delay at all to his desires. All this means that power armor does not slow the Space Marine down in the slightest; rather the 'muscles' of the armor will make him both faster and stronger, just as MJOLNIR armor does for SPARTANs.
MJOLNIR armor does seem to provide more flexibility and a wider range of motion; however, it necessarily accomplishes that by incorporating less actual armor, and so almost certainly provides less protection over certain areas. The chest and upper arms are the specific areas I'm thinking of, since for Space Marines they're protected by that very thick barrel-chest and MASSIVE PAULDRONS OF DOOM, which also serve double-duty by partially blocking line of fire to the Space Marines head from some angles.
Ossified ribcage: You say that "but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard", but I don't think that's true. The extra layer of bone will render some kinds of weapons entirely ineffective and force specific tactical decisions in order to penetrate it; and do please remember that this isn't bone as we know it. This is bone with the empty, latticework spaces filled with a ceramic armor compound, of the kind we use on main battle tanks.
Consider; the type of weapons that go through armor well are not actually the type of weapons that are very effective at killing people. If you want to cause a lot of damage to a person you use a fat, blunt, relatively slow round, which will shatter, tumble or simply expand inside the body and thus widen the channel it carves through flesh. That's why hollow-point rounds, which 'mushroom' after penetration, are sometimes called 'cop-killer' bullets; they're the most efficient way to cause the most damage possible to a human body.
The kind of bullet that punches through armor, by contrast, is a narrow, sharply-pointed round fired at the highest practical velocity. That's how you punch through a hard surface. However, that kind of bullet has a tendency to travel right through a person without actually doing much harm; it flies in a straight line, often without tumbling or being significantly deflected, and cuts a small, neat hole in one side and out the other. Low-caliber, high-velocity modern rifles often have this problem. They can get through modern body armor, but they don't have the stopping power to reliably disable the target.
The extra layer of armor that a Space Marine's ribcage forms thus creates a very difficult problem. If you're shooting at the center of mass, you first have to punch through the thickest part of the armor; that's going to take a round with very good penetration. You then have to punch through the ribs as well, which means you need a VERY high-velocity, small, needle-pointed round. . . but that bullet probably won't do lethal damage. And a Space Marine, even more than a human, is not going to be stopped by anything short of very serious trauma. Furthermore, even if you DO manage to punch a shot through and destroy some important organ, the Space Marine is still functional, because all those implants don't merely increase his physical performance, they also provide redundant copies of every vital organ that's behind that bone shield.
What all this means, in combination with the flesh-wound neutralizing effects of Larraman's Organ, is that in order for the basic ballistic weapons of the SPARTANs to inflict any serious damage at all they basically have to hit the groin or the head. Yes, SPARTANs are great shots, but their effective target area has now been radically reduced in size and limited to some of the most erratically-moving parts of the body; not to mention, Space Marines are extremely good shots themselves. The Space Marine can be fairly confident that wherever he's placing his bolter shells, they will do damage, even though against MJOLNIR armor it may well require multiple hits; effectively, this makes a Space Marine much less likely to be severely injured or killed by a SPARTAN than the SPARTAN is to be injured or killed by him.
So, in conclusion: Halo is trying to use pseudo-science to sound at least barely plausible to modern listeners, while 40k just goes ahead and flat-out tells us that Space Marines are t3h best!!!!1!
When you compare the two, a SPARTAN is a very tough, very fast, very skilled soldier with tremendous strength and extremely high-tech weaponry and armor, allowing him to accomplish things that no normal human could ever do and live through things that would kill any normal human.
A Space Marine is all that, with a bag of chips. He possesses superior strength, speed, and endurance, is nearly unkillable and capable of recovering rapidly from practically anything that DOES have a chance at killing him, not to mention he's been brainwashed and tortured for years until he's a psychotic killing machine that cares nothing for fear or pain. He has conscious control over his normally-unconscious bodily functions; which means, among other things, that he can flood his own system with adrenaline at will. On top of everything else, he can also go for up to two weeks without sleeping at all, and if he wants to sleep he can do so while simultaneously standing guard. He's the classic super-soldier but turned up to eleven, and then he tore the knob off and ate it, because he can do THAT too.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would the Spartan aim for the groin? The head I understand, but the genitals? I don't get it...
Because, as I said, the chest and upper torso have that great big mess of interlocking, reinforced bone plates between the bullets and the squishy bits. The groinal and lower stomach area doesn't.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would the Spartan aim for the groin? The head I understand, but the genitals? I don't get it...
Because, as I said, the chest and upper torso have that great big mess of interlocking, reinforced bone plates between the bullets and the squishy bits. The groinal and lower stomach area doesn't.
What vital organs are located in the groin area (well, apart from the obvious...if they are even vital to a SM anyway)?
I guess it would slow him down, but still, the laraman things would repair the damage, wouldn't they?
What vital organs are located in the groin area (well, apart from the obvious...if they are even vital to a SM anyway)?
I guess it would slow him down, but still, the laraman things would repair the damage, wouldn't they?
There aren't any. That's the point of the ribcage modification.
Aiming low would basically mean much better odds of a hit (scoring a headshot against an evading target is damn near impossible, to the point that most militaries actively train their soldiers NOT to aim for the head) but those hits will generally not be very damaging against a Space Marine. With a powerful enough weapon, though, you could cause damage to the tendons or pelvis, which could cripple their mobility. At the very least, it's better than missing altogether.
Edit: Holy crap, I didn't realize until I scrolled up and re-read it just how massive an essay I just posted.
TREMBLE, HERETICS! THE SERVANTS OF THE IMMORTAL EMPEROR HAVE COME, AND WE SHALL CRUSH YOUR PATHETIC ARGUMENTS BENEATH HIS HOLY WALLS OF TEXT!
Real question is what happens when the ninja turtles get here with the battle toads..
huge with millions of planets that can support life for sure.
