Ascalam wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.

This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written

On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.

Pretty subjective there..

I find it to be well written (as do many others) or it wouldn't have endured as a novel this long, and still be printed, but even a mediocre piece of writing (your opinion, not fact ) beats the tripe that keeps winding up in codex fluff/BL.

Eh time in print or popularity isnt a good gauge for how good the writing is. Though I agree the dexes fluff is pretty meh.

Iranna wrote:

Wait...

Have we been arguing about something that hasn't actually been written for 10 pages? Oh the humanity!

/sarcasm.

Iranna.

I apologize if my metaphor confused you. Let me rephrase.

The difference between the two is that one was given at least a minimal level of description and detail, and some effort was put into making it seem like an appropriately world-shaking confrontation. Furthermore, it took advantage of a long-standing tendency in fantastic fiction to have a hopelessly-outmatched 'underdog' hero manage to defeat a powerful and threatening villain due to force of will, righteousness, the power of heart, etc, which while sometimes irritating is widely accepted.

The other was scribbled by Matt Ward, clearly required no effort whatsoever, and is in general of lower quality than most of things you could find on fanfiction.net.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Iranna wrote:

Wait...

Have we been arguing about something that hasn't actually been written for 10 pages? Oh the humanity!

/sarcasm.

Iranna.

I apologize if my metaphor confused you. Let me rephrase.

The difference between the two is that one was given at least a minimal level of description and detail, and some effort was put into making it seem like an appropriately world-shaking confrontation. Furthermore, it took advantage of a long-standing tendency in fantastic fiction to have a hopelessly-outmatched 'underdog' hero manage to defeat a powerful and threatening villain due to force of will, righteousness, the power of heart, etc, which while sometimes irritating is widely accepted.

The other was scribbled by Matt Ward, clearly required no effort whatsoever, and is in general of lower quality than most of things you could find on fanfiction.net.

In fact, if it had been on FanFiction.net it would have been a dozen pages of Draigo welling up over his mentor's death and a flashback to the slashfic scene with them and the entire Paladin squad which-though painful to read-would have been lol-worthy.

What Ward did was take what should have been an epic scene and turn it into a footnote in Draigo's backstory. It's like picking up someone's diary and seeing

"Dear Diary,

I hate having to take my clothes to the dry cleaners, but that's what happens when you halo-jump on to Everest to save trapped climbers.

Time to go!

Love,

Sally"

You'd look at Sally's diary and say "Wait, what?! What else happened?! How can you be so casual about this?!"

Ascalam wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.

This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written

On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.

Pretty subjective there..

I find it to be well written (as do many others) or it wouldn't have endured as a novel this long, and still be printed, but even a mediocre piece of writing (your opinion, not fact ) beats the tripe that keeps winding up in codex fluff/BL.

Opinions would be worthless if they weren't open for criticism and debate, I'm sure you'd agree.
Eh, when it comes down to it, threads like this always last a hell of a lot longer than people expect them to, as everybody's got their spin on the topic to add. Frankly, it shouldn't be surprising that it's still going.

This whole thread is a bit TL;DR, so apologies if I missed it skimming.

Montarion is a Daemon Primarch for Nurgle right? Most Greater Daemons of Nurgle have their guts pooring out anyways. Given Monatrion's "weakened state" and the general level of ridiculous awesome that is Drago, and the GK's single bred purpose of defeating Chaos, aaand the GK's having the geneseed of the Emperor himself...

Well it just doesn't seem too hard to carve someone's name into his heart. Especially since their names are things like "Drago" and "Crowe" and "Thrawn". They're fairly short. Its not like he had to actually carve "GRAND MASTER XXXX" into his heart. Just 4-6 characters. On a giant heart. That is probably not even inside his body.

cowmonaut wrote:This whole thread is a bit TL;DR, so apologies if I missed it skimming.

Montarion is a Daemon Primarch for Nurgle right? Most Greater Daemons of Nurgle have their guts pooring out anyways. Given Monatrion's "weakened state" and the general level of ridiculous awesome that is Drago, and the GK's single bred purpose of defeating Chaos, aaand the GK's having the geneseed of the Emperor himself...

Well it just doesn't seem too hard to carve someone's name into his heart. Especially since their names are things like "Drago" and "Crowe" and "Thrawn". They're fairly short. Its not like he had to actually carve "GRAND MASTER XXXX" into his heart. Just 4-6 characters. On a giant heart. That is probably not even inside his body.

Where did you get Mortarion was weakend? Daemons of Nugle are famous for being the hardest of all the daemons to defeat (Khorne is the most likely to defeat you. Defense vs. Ofference comment here) Grey Knights are bred to defeat Daemons so being a Grey Knight would logically cancel out the bonus of being a Daemon Prince... this means the battle was between a basic Space Marine fighting a Primarch. A Primarch, created by the Emperor is greater than a Space Marine with the geneseed of the Emperor. Read Delieverance Lost to get a better understanding of the qualities of materials these two being would be made out of.

Plus Primarchs are generally more ridiculously more awsome than a basic Space Marine, even a Grey Knight. Hell a Primarch is leagues superior to a Chapter Master or anything. I dont think anyone is debating that Drago is superior because that isnt correct at all and the fluff makes that clear. (That doesnt mean Drago cant defeat them. It means he is the underdog. Underdogs can still win)

.... Im honostly surprised that you second point. Draigo fought and defeated a being who is stronger than him, threw him down on the ground, cut him open, and was able to restrain him long enough to write even 2 characters is so difficult to imagine. It is do able but... I mean really try to think about how crazy this is. Like I dont know what else to say about that.


The only discussion I believe going on was if Draigo had someone helping him do this whole thing and if Mortarion was weakend by previous conflicts. Neither of these are made clear by the txt which is what the whole issue is. The txt isnt clear what is going on which makes picturing the story staggering. Does everyone else agree with me that that is what the discussion is? Not that if it is or isnt possible for Draigo to win because I think we all agree it could happen?

beating a Daemon Primarch in the Warp...yeah
Perhaps the Chaos Gods are just messing with Draigo
...or more likely, perhaps Matt Ward is just messing with the fans

cowmonaut wrote:This whole thread is a bit TL;DR, so apologies if I missed it skimming.

Montarion is a Daemon Primarch for Nurgle right? Most Greater Daemons of Nurgle have their guts pooring out anyways. Given Monatrion's "weakened state" and the general level of ridiculous awesome that is Drago, and the GK's single bred purpose of defeating Chaos, aaand the GK's having the geneseed of the Emperor himself...

Well it just doesn't seem too hard to carve someone's name into his heart. Especially since their names are things like "Drago" and "Crowe" and "Thrawn". They're fairly short. Its not like he had to actually carve "GRAND MASTER XXXX" into his heart. Just 4-6 characters. On a giant heart. That is probably not even inside his body.

Assumption; that Mortarion's heart is on the outside of his body. Nurgle daemons might have exposed intestines, but exposed hearts are actually fairly rare in most depictions.
Even given that, a large blade is an immensely unwieldy tool for carving even the smallest of things into someone. Imagine, for example, using a bread knife to clean flash from a Land Raider model's parts.
Add to this that Mortarion could still be functional (though as we've argued whether he is "dead" or not, I'll only bring it up in passing) it'd be even harder to carve something more legible than a scribble into the organ.
Finally, even given their corrupted nervous systems, the Death Guard around Mortarion would almost certainly kick off at the sight of their primarchs' body being so defiled, and as good as the GKs are, they would probably be unable to hold off a concerted effort to recover the body/trapped primarch.

cowmonaut wrote:This whole thread is a bit TL;DR, so apologies if I missed it skimming.

Montarion is a Daemon Primarch for Nurgle right? Most Greater Daemons of Nurgle have their guts pooring out anyways. Given Monatrion's "weakened state" and the general level of ridiculous awesome that is Drago, and the GK's single bred purpose of defeating Chaos, aaand the GK's having the geneseed of the Emperor himself...

Well it just doesn't seem too hard to carve someone's name into his heart. Especially since their names are things like "Drago" and "Crowe" and "Thrawn". They're fairly short. Its not like he had to actually carve "GRAND MASTER XXXX" into his heart. Just 4-6 characters. On a giant heart. That is probably not even inside his body.

Uhh, no. Nurgle-blessed are actually, most often the hardiest of all chaos worshipers/daemons. He may look like a melting, falling apart pile of bones and guts, but he is a daemon primarch, and a follower of nurgle, which would make him VERT durable, not weakened. At all.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If everyone's still raging about how Draigo shouldn't be able to defeat Mortarion, how about Hector Rex vs. An'ggrath? The greatest of Khorne's servants (as in, greater than Angron), banished by an inquisitor in single combat. Yet I don't see anyone rage about THAT.


Then again, it's not written by Ward, so it doesn't count, right?

An'ggrath?

You mean the same An'ggrath who was killed/banished in single combat by Lorgar, who was at the time the weakest Primarch?

You mean that An'ggrath? Lol.

Greater than Angron? Not a chance.

I also love how almost invariably when the fight with Angron is brought up, we ignore the given context of that fight. Namely that, An'ggrath, before fighting Hector Rex, just got done beating Grey Knight ass, being injured by their psychic assault, but overcoming it. He then fought Rex, and the first thing old Hector did was weaken An'ggrath with his true name. Along with being a powerful anti-Daemon psyker (Something which Draigo also is), he has arguably the most powerful Force Sword in the Imperium, one sanctified by the Emperor himself. But despite these advantages, Hector Rex only barely won, he was nearly killed and in fact would be dead, only An'ggrath then stood up and roared Khorne's name, giving Rex an opening to stab An'ggrath in the heart. Compared to Draigo who just pushed over a Daemon Primarch and scribbled a long name on his heart.

They are not the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.

While I would agree Dracula is not particularly well-written, the strength of the titular monster's character is what made it so notable and everlasting, IMO, though sadly much of said character has been forgotten by contemporary vampire writers, rather they try to humanise the inhuman monster.

Plus he has a mustache, I mean, feth, that's manly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cowmonaut wrote:This whole thread is a bit TL;DR, so apologies if I missed it skimming.

Montarion is a Daemon Primarch for Nurgle right? Most Greater Daemons of Nurgle have their guts pooring out anyways. Given Monatrion's "weakened state" and the general level of ridiculous awesome that is Drago, and the GK's single bred purpose of defeating Chaos, aaand the GK's having the geneseed of the Emperor himself...

Well it just doesn't seem too hard to carve someone's name into his heart. Especially since their names are things like "Drago" and "Crowe" and "Thrawn". They're fairly short. Its not like he had to actually carve "GRAND MASTER XXXX" into his heart. Just 4-6 characters. On a giant heart. That is probably not even inside his body.

There are about two depictions of what Mortarion looks like as a Daemon Primarch.

Neither have exposed organs.

Hmm... there's one thing that hasn't been considered yet. Mortarion constantly breathed in neurotonxins and drank poison like Russ drank beer. Even if Nurgle didn't use that as part of his gifts, surely over ten thousand years there would have been enough build up in his system to kill virtually anything. I mean, the stuff he drank left even marines with his own gene seed reeling, so why wouldn't it have done Draigo any harm while he was messing around in the guy's chest cavity?

Durza wrote:Hmm... there's one thing that hasn't been considered yet. Mortarion constantly breathed in neurotonxins and drank poison like Russ drank beer. Even if Nurgle didn't use that as part of his gifts, surely over ten thousand years there would have been enough build up in his system to kill virtually anything. I mean, the stuff he drank left even marines with his own gene seed reeling, so why wouldn't it have done Draigo any harm while he was messing around in the guy's chest cavity?

Same reason people ignore daemon bane on Draigo's sword or that his fire wounds on a daemon on a +2, because its pretty irrelevant. He wears a helmet and bam not breathing in any fumes.

Durza wrote:Hmm... there's one thing that hasn't been considered yet. Mortarion constantly breathed in neurotonxins and drank poison like Russ drank beer. Even if Nurgle didn't use that as part of his gifts, surely over ten thousand years there would have been enough build up in his system to kill virtually anything. I mean, the stuff he drank left even marines with his own gene seed reeling, so why wouldn't it have done Draigo any harm while he was messing around in the guy's chest cavity?

Wouldnt Nurgle actually take that and allow him to be more powerful because of it? Like him drinking poison is like a normal person drinking a magic health potion?

There is nothing in any of the descriptions of the incident to indicate that Mortarion was in any way weakened. The whole point of the incident is to show how powerful Draigo is - so powerful he can defeat daemon primarchs one-on-one with ease. Ward tells us that Draigo defeats a daemon primarch and his bodyguard alone and unaided. Ward also makes sure to stress that this was not due to luck. This was not a harrowing affair that Draigo barely comes out of alive. Rather the opposite - it is Mortarion who only barely manages to escape. Ward makes sure that we know that this was not difficult for Draigo. Draigo knocks Mortarion to the ground and humiliates him by carving the former supreme grandmaster's name on his heart. This is not the description of a fight between evenly matched opponents. If your goal is to depict an even fight you do not have one of the combatants hold the other one down and give him toilet swirlies. "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

The clear implication is that Draigo is so powerful that he can defeat daemon primarchs with ease. This is the entire point. This is not an epic battle. This is Draigo beating up an inferior foe. Many people do not want to draw this obvious conclusion from the description. Thus the mental gymnastics and attempts at justification.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The clear implication is that Draigo is so powerful that he can defeat daemon primarchs with ease. This is the entire point. This is not an epic battle. This is Draigo beating up an inferior foe. Many people do not want to draw this obvious conclusion from the description. Thus the mental gymnastics and attempts at justification.

This reminds me of a quote aimed at beginner writers (of speculative fiction) - 'Your readers will accept the impossible, but not the improbable.' Another way of putting it is 'It can be whacky as long as it isn't stupid'.

That Daemons and Daemon-hunting genetically engineered post-humans *exist* and fight massive battles in a dimension comprised of mortal emotions = impossible and whacky.

Draigo easily defeating a Daemon Primarch, and bodyguard, AND finding the time to carve G-e-r-o-n-i-t-a-n into Mortarion's heart (thereby flying in the face of years of established canon) = improbable and stupid.

The fact that it was a poorly written footnote on the end of Draigo's resume of cheese only makes it worse.

Exactly.

The Emperor, supposedly the MOST powerful human that ever lived, could not beat down primarchs with ease, especially after they'd been daemonically turboboosted.
Primarchs would also have to sweat a bit to take each other out...

This would make Draigo more powerful than the Emperor, despite NOT being a Primarch, NOT being the Emperor...

Which is lousy writing.

Being able to trot around the warp rolfstomping everything is also terrible writing, as it contradicts everything 'known' about the warp, even if it does all 'grow back again..so that's all right...'

Ascalam wrote:
The Emperor, supposedly the MOST powerful human that ever lived, could not beat down primarchs with ease, especially after they'd been daemonically turboboosted.

Well, the Emperor seemed to knock out Russ easily enough and was going to beat Vulkan at his own game so it seems like the Emperor could, in fact, take down Primarchs with relative ease. If you can knock someone out, you can kill them. Horus was a special case in terms of both being daemonically gifted and the Emperor holding Himself back, and yet the Emperor still annihilated him when He had to. That was of course a struggle, but against ungifted Primarchs there seemed to be much less of a struggle. Also, Astartes (and not even full Astartes at that, since Luther would've been too old) that have been daemonically blessed have been capable of taking down Primarchs.

The thing is, I'm not sure Daemon Primarchs have actually gained much (if at all) of a power boost. The normal Primarchs were still capable of taking down dozens of Astartes with ease. All Daemonhood really seems to have done is give them immortality and some key weaknesses. Hence against Grey Knights, they may well be worse off than they would be if they were not ascended.

As for the name carving, I always assumed that it was part of some kind of ritual, rather than a mere slight. Mortarion couldn't return for many years so it looks like he was actually banished in some form.

He hit Russ with a Powerfist IIRC.

Double Emperor S hits down anything


Daemon Primarchs could down Titans in close combat in Epic. They are seriosly buffed by daemonhood.

DP's are buffer than the marines (or whatever) they once were.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The Emperor, supposedly the MOST powerful human that ever lived, could not beat down primarchs with ease, especially after they'd been daemonically turboboosted.

Well, the Emperor seemed to knock out Russ easily enough and was going to beat Vulkan at his own game so it seems like the Emperor could, in fact, take down Primarchs with relative ease. If you can knock someone out, you can kill them. Horus was a special case in terms of both being daemonically gifted and the Emperor holding Himself back, and yet the Emperor still annihilated him when He had to. That was of course a struggle, but against ungifted Primarchs there seemed to be much less of a struggle. Also, Astartes (and not even full Astartes at that, since Luther would've been too old) that have been daemonically blessed have been capable of taking down Primarchs.

The thing is, I'm not sure Daemon Primarchs have actually gained much (if at all) of a power boost. The normal Primarchs were still capable of taking down dozens of Astartes with ease. All Daemonhood really seems to have done is give them immortality and some key weaknesses. Hence against Grey Knights, they may well be worse off than they would be if they were not ascended.

As for the name carving, I always assumed that it was part of some kind of ritual, rather than a mere slight. Mortarion couldn't return for many years so it looks like he was actually banished in some form.

Ya sorry Ascalam but the Emperor could demolish Primarchs. Horus only did as well as he did was because the Emperor was holding back by a lot. The second the Emperor stopped holding back, the battle ended in seconds.

The Daemon Primarchs would have a power boost but they wouldnt be Horus level powerful. They wouldnt be Horus level powerful because only 1 god is gifting them but thats still something. Fulgrim, the one who is backed by the least powerful of the gods, still destroyed Guiliman. Mortarion by all rights should be able to take on any of the Primarchs no trouble (with the exception of Russ) So for an Astrate to win against him is even more shocking than if an Astrate beat a Primarch like Guiliman. (Possible, just shocking)


Ya Daemon Primarchs are going to get a huge boost. If all it was was immortality and than some weaknesses than none of them would be Daemon Primarchs because you dont need to be a Daemon for immortality (see Lucius)

Galdos wrote:The Daemon Primarchs would have a power boost but they wouldnt be Horus level powerful. They wouldnt be Horus level powerful because only 1 god is gifting them but thats still something. Fulgrim, the one who is backed by the least powerful of the gods, still destroyed Guiliman. Mortarion by all rights should be able to take on any of the Primarchs no trouble (with the exception of Russ) So for an Astartes to win against him is even more shocking than if an Astartes beat a Primarch like Guiliman. (Possible, just shocking)


Ya Daemon Primarchs are going to get a huge boost. If all it was was immortality and than some weaknesses than none of them would be Daemon Primarchs because you dont need to be a Daemon for immortality (see Lucius)

I'm gonna have to disagree when you say the Daemon Primarchs aren't as powerful as Horus was. Horus gained the favour and the gifts of the Chaos Gods, sure, but he was still a mortal. If we equate this to the CSM equivalent, Horus was a Primarch 'Chaos Lord' when he was killed, the rest are now Primarch 'Daemon Princes'. The rest is pretty much spot on, Gulliman lost to a Daemon Primarch, so apparently Draigo > Gulliman?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The thing is, I'm not sure Daemon Primarchs have actually gained much (if at all) of a power boost. The normal Primarchs were still capable of taking down dozens of Astartes with ease. All Daemonhood really seems to have done is give them immortality and some key weaknesses. Hence against Grey Knights, they may well be worse off than they would be if they were not ascended.

When Chaos Space Marines get ascended to Daemon Princes, the buffs they get are significant. It would be illogical to assume that the Daemon Primarchs (especially the Daemon Primarchs, considering what they did to aid Chaos's spread) receive less significant gifts.

GoldenKaos wrote:

Galdos wrote:The Daemon Primarchs would have a power boost but they wouldnt be Horus level powerful. They wouldnt be Horus level powerful because only 1 god is gifting them but thats still something. Fulgrim, the one who is backed by the least powerful of the gods, still destroyed Guiliman. Mortarion by all rights should be able to take on any of the Primarchs no trouble (with the exception of Russ) So for an Astartes to win against him is even more shocking than if an Astartes beat a Primarch like Guiliman. (Possible, just shocking)


Ya Daemon Primarchs are going to get a huge boost. If all it was was immortality and than some weaknesses than none of them would be Daemon Primarchs because you dont need to be a Daemon for immortality (see Lucius)

I'm gonna have to disagree when you say the Daemon Primarchs aren't as powerful as Horus was. Horus gained the favour and the gifts of the Chaos Gods, sure, but he was still a mortal. If we equate this to the CSM equivalent, Horus was a Primarch 'Chaos Lord' when he was killed, the rest are now Primarch 'Daemon Princes'. The rest is pretty much spot on, Gulliman lost to a Daemon Primarch, so apparently Draigo > Gulliman?

Horus had the full backing of all four Chaos Gods. There's just no way any Daemon Prince, Primarch or not, is equal to that. That's just silly.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GoldenKaos wrote:

Galdos wrote:The Daemon Primarchs would have a power boost but they wouldnt be Horus level powerful. They wouldnt be Horus level powerful because only 1 god is gifting them but thats still something. Fulgrim, the one who is backed by the least powerful of the gods, still destroyed Guiliman. Mortarion by all rights should be able to take on any of the Primarchs no trouble (with the exception of Russ) So for an Astartes to win against him is even more shocking than if an Astartes beat a Primarch like Guiliman. (Possible, just shocking)


Ya Daemon Primarchs are going to get a huge boost. If all it was was immortality and than some weaknesses than none of them would be Daemon Primarchs because you dont need to be a Daemon for immortality (see Lucius)

I'm gonna have to disagree when you say the Daemon Primarchs aren't as powerful as Horus was. Horus gained the favour and the gifts of the Chaos Gods, sure, but he was still a mortal. If we equate this to the CSM equivalent, Horus was a Primarch 'Chaos Lord' when he was killed, the rest are now Primarch 'Daemon Princes'. The rest is pretty much spot on, Gulliman lost to a Daemon Primarch, so apparently Draigo > Gulliman?

Horus had the full backing of all four Chaos Gods. There's just no way any Daemon Prince, Primarch or not, is equal to that. That's just silly.

Really? If Horus had the *full* backing of all four Chaos Gods, he'd be Daemon Prince Horus, and he would not be dead. The daemonic gifts and powers granted before Daemonhood are indeed significant, especially when conferred by all four Gods, but Daemonhood is like +100 on top of that. You're seriously saying that Daemon Angron couldn't beat a Horus on Chaos 'Roids? Or Daemon Fulgrim? Daemon Lorgar, heh, probably not. Besides the point anyhoo.

The Primarchs are the most powerful warriors to walk the galaxy except the Emperor himself (and maybe C'Tan when they were still about) - with Daemon Ascension, they're even more powerful. The fact that it is said that Draigo managed to easily beat one and carve his mentor's name into his heart like it's just another Tuesday is frankly ridiculous.

Ascalam wrote:He hit Russ with a Powerfist IIRC.

I'm not sure it was activated at the time though, because that would probably make a mess of even a Primarch. Either way, the fact that it hit suggests that the Emperor would be pretty dangerous in melee even without using His Psychic powers.

Daemon Primarchs could down Titans in close combat in Epic. They are seriosly buffed by daemonhood.

Magnus could destroy Titans with his Psychic powers pre-Heresy from what I've heard, but table-top isn't that good a representation of the background anyway.

GoldenKaos wrote:Gulliman lost to a Daemon Primarch

That doesn't mean a great deal though. He could have lost to Fulgrim prior to Fulgrim's possession and later ascension (can a Daemon-host become a Daemon Prince anyway?) since Fulgrim was supposed to be a very highly skilled swordsman, whereas Guilliman was not particularly renowned for his personal martial prowess. He also had the Anatheme if I recall correctly, which gives him a significant advantage over normal weapons which aside from decapitation seem to struggle to greatly wound Primarchs.

GoldenKaos wrote:When Chaos Space Marines get ascended to Daemon Princes, the buffs they get are significant. It would be illogical to assume that the Daemon Primarchs (especially the Daemon Primarchs, considering what they did to aid Chaos's spread) receive less significant gifts.

Not really. Many Primarchs no longer fight that much for Chaos and so greatly boosting their power wouldn't achieve that much. More importantly, they were seemingly Warp-constructs of some sort anyway. Assuming the gifts of Chaos effect them in the same way as Astartes, who are fully flesh and blood and are still Human is a fair leap. We've never seen a Daemon-Primarch do something that a normal Primarch couldn't aside from not stay dead.

If Horus had the *full* backing of all four Chaos Gods, he'd be Daemon Prince Horus, and he would not be dead.

He would still be dead, because the Emperor destroyed his soul. Daemons can be destroyed. A Daemon-Prince Horus would've been just as vulnerable to the Emperor, if not more so, because destabilising the bonds holding him to the Materium would pose a key vulnerability (as well as potentially causing the Emperor not to hold back since He would have known sooner that there would be no redeeming Him).

You're seriously saying that Daemon Angron couldn't beat a Horus on Chaos 'Roids?

I'd definately say that, actually. Horus was given a great deal of power so that he could defeat the Emperor. Angron doesn't get the undivided attention of all four Ruinous Powers because the stakes aren't as high as they were when the Emperor was around. The Emperor was an actual threat to the Chaos Gods. They have no such threat at the moment. That's why Horus was granted such power.

Luther was just enhanced Human, not even a full Astartes, and he was given enough power to cripple a Primarch. A Primarch on the other hand is capable of defeating Greater Daemons that would be more powerful than many Daemon Princes. It isn't as simple as A beats B, and B beats C, so A must be able to beat C. A normal Primarch would have killed Draigo. Being ascended gave Mortarion weaknesses to the Grey Knights that he would not have otherwise had. I'm going to assume that these weaknesses were exploited.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Not really. Many Primarchs no longer fight that much for Chaos and so greatly boosting their power wouldn't achieve that much. More importantly, they were seemingly Warp-constructs of some sort anyway. Assuming the gifts of Chaos effect them in the same way as Astartes, who are fully flesh and blood and are still Human is a fair leap. We've never seen a Daemon-Primarch do something that a normal Primarch couldn't aside from not stay dead.

That's kinda because the canonical information on Primarchs post-Horus Heresy is sparse. We know Magnus ordered an attack against the Fang, and that Angron went on a massive crusade then later did a number on Armageddon, but the rest of the Daemon Primarchs have mostly been just chillin' with no interest in the corporeal world. Perturabo's sulking on Medrengard, Lorgar's meditating, Magnus spends most of his time in his tower on the sorcerer planet, Angron ... fights?, Fulgrim is trapped inside his body by the daemon who's living it out on the pleasure planet and Alpharius/Omegon are ... doing whatever it is they do. Last we knew, Mortarion was also chilling out on his plague planet, why was he even fighting against GK in the first place?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I'd definitely say that, actually. Horus was given a great deal of power so that he could defeat the Emperor. Angron doesn't get the undivided attention of all four Ruinous Powers because the stakes aren't as high as they were when the Emperor was around. The Emperor was an actual threat to the Chaos Gods. They have no such threat at the moment. That's why Horus was granted such power.

Hmm. If we equate Horus as being the 40k version of Archaon from WHFB, then I can kinda see precedent for this. But in a long shot kind of way.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Being ascended gave Mortarion weaknesses to the Grey Knights that he would not have otherwise had. I'm going to assume that these weaknesses were exploited.

The problem here is we run into the old problem of if Daemon Powers are negated (or even grant and actual disadvantage to Mortarion) because of the GK anti-Daemon-ness, then we are still left with the problem of a Primarch (possibly weakened by simple matter of GK > Daemons) being defeated, *along with his bodyguard* by an Astartes - who did not even need to break a sweat. That is BS. Angron took 100 GK termies including 4 Grand Masters IIRC to be banished and most of them died. Sure, Draigo's better than most of those amateurs I'm sure, and Angron was a Khornate dude who was good at fighting and so better than Mortarion, but considering that's the only other recorded instance of GK vs Daemon Primarch, it's a hell of a leap from 'one hundred banish losing most of their number' to 'one kicks ass and chews bubblegum, and the bodyguard too, oh and carving of name on vital organs'. It's just ridiculous.

You guys do realize the reason Horus and Abaddon were said to be stronger then daemon princes and refused the change due to the inability to come into materium at will. Dp are for all their power are incredibly hindered.

Galdos wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The Emperor, supposedly the MOST powerful human that ever lived, could not beat down primarchs with ease, especially after they'd been daemonically turboboosted.

Well, the Emperor seemed to knock out Russ easily enough and was going to beat Vulkan at his own game so it seems like the Emperor could, in fact, take down Primarchs with relative ease. If you can knock someone out, you can kill them. Horus was a special case in terms of both being daemonically gifted and the Emperor holding Himself back, and yet the Emperor still annihilated him when He had to. That was of course a struggle, but against ungifted Primarchs there seemed to be much less of a struggle. Also, Astartes (and not even full Astartes at that, since Luther would've been too old) that have been daemonically blessed have been capable of taking down Primarchs.

The thing is, I'm not sure Daemon Primarchs have actually gained much (if at all) of a power boost. The normal Primarchs were still capable of taking down dozens of Astartes with ease. All Daemonhood really seems to have done is give them immortality and some key weaknesses. Hence against Grey Knights, they may well be worse off than they would be if they were not ascended.

As for the name carving, I always assumed that it was part of some kind of ritual, rather than a mere slight. Mortarion couldn't return for many years so it looks like he was actually banished in some form.

Ya sorry Ascalam but the Emperor could demolish Primarchs. Horus only did as well as he did was because the Emperor was holding back by a lot. The second the Emperor stopped holding back, the battle ended in seconds.

The Daemon Primarchs would have a power boost but they wouldnt be Horus level powerful. They wouldnt be Horus level powerful because only 1 god is gifting them but thats still something. Fulgrim, the one who is backed by the least powerful of the gods, still destroyed Guiliman. Mortarion by all rights should be able to take on any of the Primarchs no trouble (with the exception of Russ) So for an Astrate to win against him is even more shocking than if an Astrate beat a Primarch like Guiliman. (Possible, just shocking)


Ya Daemon Primarchs are going to get a huge boost. If all it was was immortality and than some weaknesses than none of them would be Daemon Primarchs because you dont need to be a Daemon for immortality (see Lucius)

The battle was technically already over by the time that the Emperor stopped holding back. And IIRC the implication was that Horus could have stopped him if he hadn't dropped his guard, assuming the Emperor beaten already.

Galdos wrote:

Ya sorry Ascalam but the Emperor could demolish Primarchs. Horus only did as well as he did was because the Emperor was holding back by a lot. The second the Emperor stopped holding back, the battle ended in seconds

Uh, actually, the Emperor came damn close to losing that fight, and not because he was 'holding back' - by that stage, he'd decided that either he or Horus had to die.
Actually, if it hadn't been for the intervention of a guardsman/terminator/Custodes, Horus would have almost certainly killed the Emperor, and it was only due to the distraction caused that the Big E was able to launch a final attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Not really. Many Primarchs no longer fight that much for Chaos and so greatly boosting their power wouldn't achieve that much. More importantly, they were seemingly Warp-constructs of some sort anyway. Assuming the gifts of Chaos effect them in the same way as Astartes, who are fully flesh and blood and are still Human is a fair leap. We've never seen a Daemon-Primarch do something that a normal Primarch couldn't aside from not stay dead.

Where do you get the idea that the Primarchs are warp constructs? They're clones of the Emperor, who is human (kind of.) The powers of the Warp would affect them just as much as an Astartes, who also contain Primarch DNA incidentally.

I believe by construct he meant that the Gods had a hand in creating them. Though that would make them more open to the gifts of the gods if anything. Though the humanity of the Space Marines is debatable as well.

Durza wrote:I believe by construct he meant that the Gods had a hand in creating them. Though that would make them more open to the gifts of the gods if anything. Though the humanity of the Space Marines is debatable as well.

Point, but only in the sense that they influenced (or tried to influence) each one as they were whisked off.

Chaos Horus is far more powerful than any servant of Chaos in history.

Void__Dragon wrote:Chaos Horus is far more powerful than any servant of Chaos in history.

Debatable. In terms of sheer power there's a chance that Doombreed or a favoured champion of Khorne could best him. As for power over other Chaos followers, Abaddon has held the legions together through thirteen black crusades, but when Horus' attack on Terra failed, they splintered. Perhaps if Horus had escaped it would have been different, but I get the feeling that he would have been hated for the loss and lost his power for it.

Durza wrote:Debatable. In terms of sheer power there's a chance that Doombreed or a favoured champion of Khorne could best him. As for power over other Chaos followers, Abaddon has held the legions together through thirteen black crusades, but when Horus' attack on Terra failed, they splintered. Perhaps if Horus had escaped it would have been different, but I get the feeling that he would have been hated for the loss and lost his power for it.

It isn't debatable at all.

Horus wasn't just some particularly powerful Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided.

He had the massed power of all four Chaos Gods inside him, all four were possessing him, lending him the totality of their power in the hopes of destroying the Emperor.

There was never any chance of Horus escaping, when the Emperor used his full power against Horus, the Chaos Gods fled Horus's body in fear of their own existence, and Horus's soul was left obliterated.

If Horus did escape in failure though, it is likely the Gods themselves would strip him of their power.

Also, Doombreed is by far the most overrated character in 40k. There is exactly no source which states "Doombreed is the most powerful/greatest servant of Khorne."

But there are plenty of sources stating Angron is.

Guys, you need to read "Visions of Death" which can be found in the "Collected Visions" books. Or at least read the wikis.

The wiki has this statement with it sourced from pg. 362-369 of said book.
"However even after all that he had done, the Emperor could not bring himself to use his full power and risk killing his beloved son. But the Chaos Gods had no such qualms and gleeful at a chance to finally kill the hated Emperor, fed even more power into Horus. "

Its pretty clear that the Emperor could have demolished Horus but couldnt bring himself too. When the intervention occured, the Emperor decided it had to be done. He proceded to litterally rip the four Chaos gods out of Horus (talking about power) and then destroy Horus completely so he could never be used by the Chaos Gods again. The whole point of the intervention is that when the Emperor saw Horus flay this soldier who was loyal to the Emperor, the Emperor realized that Horus had to be stopped, there could be no reasoning with him, he had to be destroyed.

Void__Dragon wrote:

It isn't debatable at all.

Horus wasn't just some particularly powerful Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided.

He had the massed power of all four Chaos Gods inside him, all four were possessing him, lending him the totality of their power in the hopes of destroying the Emperor.

There was never any chance of Horus escaping, when the Emperor used his full power against Horus, the Chaos Gods fled Horus's body in fear of their own existence, and Horus's soul was left obliterated.

If Horus did escape in failure though, it is likely the Gods themselves would strip him of their power.

Also, Doombreed is by far the most overrated character in 40k. There is exactly no source which states "Doombreed is the most powerful/greatest servant of Khorne."

But there are plenty of sources stating Angron is.

Erm. . .source?

Horus was not, as far as I know, possessed by the Chaos Gods. He was granted power by them; just like all the Daemon Primarchs, and indeed all the Daemon Princes, are granted power by their patron deities.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

It isn't debatable at all.

Horus wasn't just some particularly powerful Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided.

He had the massed power of all four Chaos Gods inside him, all four were possessing him, lending him the totality of their power in the hopes of destroying the Emperor.

There was never any chance of Horus escaping, when the Emperor used his full power against Horus, the Chaos Gods fled Horus's body in fear of their own existence, and Horus's soul was left obliterated.

If Horus did escape in failure though, it is likely the Gods themselves would strip him of their power.

Also, Doombreed is by far the most overrated character in 40k. There is exactly no source which states "Doombreed is the most powerful/greatest servant of Khorne."

But there are plenty of sources stating Angron is.

Erm. . .source?

Horus was not, as far as I know, possessed by the Chaos Gods. He was granted power by them; just like all the Daemon Primarchs, and indeed all the Daemon Princes, are granted power by their patron deities.

I just sourced it actually. He was actually possessed by the four Gods. After the Gods were ripped out, Horus was back to normal and realized what he had done. He had enough time to shed a single tear before the Emperor destroyed him. The Emperor destroyed him because in Horus weakened state, the Gods could easily re-take control of him.





Oh and another source covering the battle. This one from White Dwarf #161

"In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint."

"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow."

"Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there. Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die"

BeRzErKeR wrote:Erm. . .source?

Horus was not, as far as I know, possessed by the Chaos Gods. He was granted power by them; just like all the Daemon Primarchs, and indeed all the Daemon Princes, are granted power by their patron deities.

The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions. From "The Final Battle", near the end.

Galdos provided the quotes.

He was given the full, unlimited backing of all four Chaos Gods. As far as we are aware, that has never happened before in the setting.

Galdos wrote:Guys, you need to read "Visions of Death" which can be found in the "Collected Visions" books. Or at least read the wikis.

The wiki has this statement with it sourced from pg. 362-369 of said book.
"However even after all that he had done, the Emperor could not bring himself to use his full power and risk killing his beloved son. But the Chaos Gods had no such qualms and gleeful at a chance to finally kill the hated Emperor, fed even more power into Horus. "

I'm certainly not seeing the bit about possession. As I said, they granted him power; just like individual Gods grant Daemon Princes power.

'Possession' would be one or more of the Chaos Gods actually, physically manifesting through the medium of Horus's body, in the same way as Greater Daemons do through mortal hosts. That did not happen. The Chaos Gods, themselves, were off in the Warp, pumping energy into Horus; when they saw the Emperor charging up his psychic Kamehameha, they sucked their power back out and cut the connection to avoid losing energy when Horus got blasted.

Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them

'Possession' would be one or more of the Chaos Gods actually, physically manifesting through the medium of Horus's body, in the same way as Greater Daemons do through mortal hosts. That did not happen.

Galdos wrote:

Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them

That might not literally mean possession like you think it means. As I recall, though Horus repented when he was stripped briefly of the energies of Chaos, his actions in most of the other HH books indicate that he was acting under his own volition for most of it, with his mind becoming warped as time went on.
In this case, the word "possession" might refer more to the warping of his mind than the Chaos Gods physically controlling his actions by using his body as a host.

Okay that just means we are reading the same txt and interpreting it differently. Thats not a problem though.

You are correct that Horus did repent. I assumed its similar to Fulgrim where the Gods were whispering into his mind messing with his thought process. He was still coming up with the plans but they were corrupted. With the Gods gone he was his old self again.