It is given precisely 4 lines in the codex, as Mat Ward doesn't want to explain how a space marine, even a feth-hardcore one, is able to overcome a Daemon Primarch for long enough to tattoo things into his internal organs.
Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.
I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.
Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.
Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.
I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.
Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.
It's the art of Worfing at it's very finest. Writers create a character, and think "oh, I need to show how hardcore they are" so they have them casually slap around a pre-existing hardass without bothering to give details.
Never mind that often what makes things seem heroic is the effort said heroes put into their deeds. The amount of description given here makes it almost seem like Draigo did it in between sips from a cup of nice,
warm, slightly lemony Earl Grey tea.
Draigo carries (supposed) the Emperor's gene seed, and if the Emperor really protects thos with faith, then no one that has fallen to Chaos can stand before him, not even a Primarch.
Face it, the only reason GKs are so tough is because they're is so few of them, they have a few big wins but the IOM takes a lot of losses overall. Just wait till the Emperor ascends into full God, then you really will have a lot of fluff to hate on.
I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.
When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.
I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.
When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.
I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart
That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.
Kairos wrote:I assume Mortarion lived, as the fluff I read on the Internet said he was enraged over it.
I'd be pissed as well if some punk came over to scribble stuff on my organs.
Gems such as these seem to become more common these days, don't they? The SW 'dex contained one or two hilarious things as well. Like that "let's walk through a space whale" stuff.
I don't really have a problem with the SW fluff, but that particular bit was really strange.
I think that I should add in that Mortarion was never a superb fighter and I'm sure he lost a duel at some point to a member of either his or another legion.
Also, it should be noted that he is a daemon; something which Draigo has had centuries to combat and being a Grey Knight, is pure anathema to anything daemonic.
In addition, Mortarion had just defeated a Grandmaster in 1 on 1 combat, I'm sure he would be severely weakened from his fight with said Grandmaster, something which Draigo would have easily been able to exploit and may explain why Draigo defeated him so "easily".
There's always an explanation, if you look deep enough.
It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
daveNYC wrote:It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
One slight problem with your answer: it did actually happen.
I suggest that instead of people screaming "cheese! Impossible to beat a daemon primarch in CC!!!" they look at the context of which it is written and then realise that yes, it is entirely possible and indeed, realistic.
daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.
daveNYC wrote:It never happened. The 40k universe works so much better if both the loyal and traitor primarchs remain as background figures. There's a reason that GW 'lost' all the loyal ones and had kept the traitors bottled up in the Eye of Terror being all emo.
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
One slight problem with your answer: it did actually happen.
I suggest that instead of people screaming "cheese! Impossible to beat a daemon primarch in CC!!!" they look at the context of which it is written and then realise that yes, it is entirely possible and indeed, realistic.
Iranna.
Ward doesn't do context. Nor, which is unfortunate to the theory posted higher in the thread, does he do metaphor. What he does do is the Rule of Cool and Taking it To Eleven. Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.
And one of the key points of a daemon-primarch should be that they can't be beaten. The good guys can sacrifice themselves and somehow manage to take the primarch with them, but the primarch should never be just beaten. What sort of 10,000 year old, chaos infused, demi-god, unholy terror is there that can be taken out by a highly trained transhuman (Emperor's geneseed or no).
The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.
daveNYC wrote: Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.
I wonder if we could say "dialing it up to twelve" in such cases. Or rather: breaking the knob.
I think it's obvious we have some sort of "inflation of epicness" going on. Could be a generational thing, though. As I mentioned earlier, I've noticed this in various franchises lately.
Ward doesn't do context. Nor, which is unfortunate to the theory posted higher in the thread, does he do metaphor. What he does do is the Rule of Cool and Taking it To Eleven. Which is great, because that's what 40k runs on, but he always seems to dial things up to the point where they just don't make any sense anymore.
And one of the key points of a daemon-primarch should be that they can't be beaten. The good guys can sacrifice themselves and somehow manage to take the primarch with them, but the primarch should never be just beaten. What sort of 10,000 year old, chaos infused, demi-god, unholy terror is there that can be taken out by a highly trained transhuman (Emperor's geneseed or no).
The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.
Simply bashing Matt Ward does not validate your point I'm afraid.
Like I said earlier, in the context of the story, Mortarian would have been severely weakened by the previous Grandmaster and that is why Draigo would have been able to defeat him. At the height of his powers yes, Mortarion probably would have smashed Draigo into the ground however, you're lucky if he was half as powerful as normal after his previous duel.
No, one of the key points of a daemon-primarch is that they are immortal, not unbeatable. As DarknessEternal wrote, Angron has been defeated many-a-time by the Grey Knights and he was quite possibly the most skilled hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs.
Avatars are shards of a God yes, however, they are just that. Broken pieces. They contain but a fraction of Khaine's power and as such, can be defeated by mortal foes.
He may be Nurgle's chosen, however, that doesn't make him an awesome fighter. Nurgle is synonymous with resilience, not battle-prowess. As I mentioned earlier, Mortarion never really was much of a fighter. He could put up a fight sure, but compared to the likes of Angron, Horus and even Fulgrim, he wasn't so impressive. So act as though a Grandmaster would be of no match to a Daemon-Primarch of Mortarion's calibre fluff-wise. These are quite possibly the most experienced and talented of all individuals in the Imperium, honed for centuries and for some, millennia. I'm quite sure he'd be able to do more than "wind" Mortarion.
Iranna wrote:I think that I should add in that Mortarion was never a superb fighter and I'm sure he lost a duel at some point to a member of either his or another legion.
Also, it should be noted that he is a daemon; something which Draigo has had centuries to combat and being a Grey Knight, is pure anathema to anything daemonic.
In addition, Mortarion had just defeated a Grandmaster in 1 on 1 combat, I'm sure he would be severely weakened from his fight with said Grandmaster, something which Draigo would have easily been able to exploit and may explain why Draigo defeated him so "easily".
There's always an explanation, if you look deep enough.
Iranna.
It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....
Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-
'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'
OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.
I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....
tsz52 wrote:
It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....
Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-
'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'
OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.
I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....
Forgive me, after re-reading the story, I realise that it was actually the previous Supreme Grandmaster.
In which case, I can imagine that he would most definately be able to hold his own against both the Deathshroud (Mortarion's 2 bodyguards) and Mortarion himself.
A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.
On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).
Iranna wrote:[A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.
On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).
His anger makes Draigo "an even greater calibre" than the true Grand Master who has both more experience and vastly superior wargear?
Well. On the other hand, Draigo started killing Daemon Princes left and right as a simple Battle Brother, so I suppose he has always been this awesome.
And with a name like that, what kind of daemon could possibly stand against him?
Unsurprisingly, opinions on the level of ... uh, "realism" concerning such stories will vary according to one's own opinion and convictions, and our interpretation of the setting as a whole. It stands to reason that Mr. Ward himself is convinced that it makes for a good story, and the book is written for a target audience that ideally shares this sentiment. The only thing everything can possibly agree on is that it is arguably a rather controversial character whose heroics manage to stick out even from the usual legends of 40k like an Ork at a tea party, so there's not much sense in argueing over it.
Never liked this fluff. Not one bit. I do love me some GK, they are badass but what I dont love is when it gets exaggerated. To me this story is incredibly exaggerated, sounds like something a homeless guy said he had done before he fell on some hard times to make his life atleast a little interesting. I also really like Mortarion and I think I may be biased because of it, but doing something like that to a primarch that has been elevated to a daemon price?.. Seems a tad too much for me.
All it needs is more detail, and to be treated with the reverence and badassery that a duel with a Primarch deserves.
That alone would fix the problem.
Yes, because it's so out of place that a supreme grand master of a bunch of super soldiers that were specifically trained to fight daemons, beat a daemon..........that's so OOT
How do you carve something on a heart and have that being still live?!? I mean, I understand how the champion of Nurgle is a tough mothertrucker but how do you A. carve something onto a heart without puncturing it or tearing it apart and B. how the hell do you survive with a ripped heart? Oh wait don't Marines all have like multiple hearts? Anyhow the idea of carving a name onto the heart of a living being is kinda stupid.... and how did he have the time to carve a whole name while a demon primarch is fighting him!?! O.o ok I'll just leave this story be...
bombboy1252 wrote:Yes, because it's so out of place that a supreme grand master of a bunch of super soldiers that were specifically trained to fight daemons, beat a daemon..........that's so OOT
You've missed the point, I see.
Allow me to re-explain.
It's not that Draigo won, but that the fight gets a grand total of 4 lines in Draigo's biography.
Too short in detail for what was undoubtedly an epic duel.
tsz52 wrote:
It's really best left alone, like that other thing on P.15....
Buuut, it doesn't say that the previous combat was one on one... and in fact suggests otherwise given that Mortarion has a stated bodyguard: the first part of this line needs to be accounted for in your reading:-
'Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.'
OK, Mortarion's poor at fighting (?) so being a clever chap he has a bodyguard who's unusually good at fighting... who having been smashed aside... sulk (?) whilst our Hero's having his artistic fun with their charge? Daemon Primarchs must be very forgiving of their minions' failure.
I'd agree that it is intended to be precisely literal though (there'll be no misremembering, 'Chinese whispers' observer who survived the GKs' extermination of all witnesses after the battle); though it being the usual (possible) 'fish story' would be the only thing that could redeem the tale....
Forgive me, after re-reading the story, I realise that it was actually the previous Supreme Grandmaster.
In which case, I can imagine that he would most definately be able to hold his own against both the Deathshroud (Mortarion's 2 bodyguards) and Mortarion himself.
A Supreme Grandmaster is quite literally the pinnacle of the Imperium, quite possible one of the most fearsome fighters in the galaxy. However, he alone would not be able to kill all 3.
On the other hand, Draigo assaults them in the same battle, just after they have finished a duel with Geronitan. I doubt that even Mortarion and the Deathshroud could face a subsequent assault of an even greater calibre (Draigo is rather angry after all).
Iranna.
Fair enough; it comes down to this:-
Imagine the simple mechanical difficulty of holding someone down and carving 'G-e-r-o-n-i-t-a-n' into their chest whilst they struggle, with arms all over the place, trying to squirm and roll away etc (let alone try to actually fight back).
Now make that hapless victim a Daemon Primarch (however tired he may be).
Now accomplish all this with two elite (and extremely highly motivated for many reasons) giants in terminator armour stood beside/behind you (however tired they me be), who have huge scythes - the very shape for hooking you and pulling you away if nothing else.
'G-e-r-o-n-i-t-a-n' takes a while to carve under those circumstances. If you personally find this feasible then fair play - not much more that we can say, and I'm glad it was nice and civil.
EDIT: If he'd slain the bodyguard in passing (thus taking them out of the picture, rather than smashing his way through them), such was his Righteous Fury, then I'd have far fewer problems with the tale.
* * *
Morty: "I have just suffered the greatest indignity and humiliation of my entire life! Where the feth were you, O Most Favoured 'Champions' of mine?!"
Bodyguards: "Sorry boss, we were a bit knackered after that ruck with the other guy... catching our breath, y'know...."
Morty: "Yeah... I was pretty tired meself. Fair enough lads, go and get yourselves a nice brew."
I've never had a 'manage'r that understanding, let alone one who was a Daemon Primarch. Them Nurgle folks really must be the nicest guys after all....
Well, heres how this really happened. Everyone listen up. Ok soo Morty goes and kills Draigos boss cuz well morty then gains like plus 50% badassness. Then Draigos like hey morty GW needs more money so maybe they can actually do something about how crappy half the demon line looks, so you should let me like carve some crap into your heart cuz then I gain like 150% badassness so GK will sell much better. Then Morty is like well gosh, I really could use some new nurgley friends, go for it. thats how GW constructs the lore lately.
daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.
This part of Angron's fluff I always loved
"My lord are you planning yet another crusade?"
*very loud raging*
"But my lord maybe this time you should not try and take on a army of grey knights by yourself."
*louder raging*
"Fine see you in a couple weeks my lord"
In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
If you're referring to An'ggrath, that wasn't the Grey Knights, and Hector Rex had his True Name. I guess you could argue that Gharghatuloth is stronger than Angron, though.
Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.
Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.
Considering that both Stern and Mordrak (IIRC, at least one of the named characters in the Codex) are stated to be survivors of Armageddon I, more than one obviously survived. Lexicanum puts their number around a dozen, but doesn't cite sources.
Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
Angron wasn't killed one on one. He was banished by an entire company of Grey Knights, and he killed all but one of them in the process.
Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.
Also, none of those GKs were above the rank of Brother-Sergeant (Justicar now).
Grey Knights have been killing Daemon Primarchs literally since the first time they were mentioned. Everyone's shock at Draigo is misplaced since it's a perfect example of what Grey Knights have always done.
Matt Ward is awesome, he take OP codexs and makes them a little weaker and everyone says its the most OP codex ever. Then he writes good fluff about GK being good at their job.
Times change, 40k changes, everyone "wants" things their way. I wish I had the new models and had the old codex, might not have Warp Quake anymore but it was a whole lot harder to kill Daemon Hunters.
With that said, I’m sure Matt Wards bad fluff writing will lead into a book about the events he writes about so GW can make more money.
DK
I posted this on another site, dont hate because the Emperor is awesome.
I dunno, maybe it's because I have not bothered too much with the Ordo Malleus, but I'm used to see GKsganging up against individual hi-power daemons.
Not single GKs slapping them around. After punching through their guards.
What rank was Drogo when he pwned Mortarion, anyways? I mean, at least he had 100+ years of experience by now, not like in his first battle against a Daemon Prince.
In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.
It just takes a portion of the horror away, but this is just my feeling and maybe I *am* the only one in this. Maybe fleshing out the story as Gorskar suggested would help alleviate the issue, too, but at the moment it just looks "out of place" considering the role of daemons in the setting as I perceive it based on what I've read in the past.
In essence, Grey Knights have replaced Daemon Princes as the most powerful thing to possibly encounter on a battlefield, and I don't like this change.
I like seeing this kinda thing, what is worse, being a Human and see a Bloodletter charge u...or being a bloodletter and a Grey Knight terminator charge u.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.
When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.
I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart
That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.
Isn't Beaky the Lord of Change a major cannon character? And reasonable? I think it is when one considers the likely hood that Ward was using poetic license when referring to one of the major victories Draigo had over chaos (although Pyrrhic ) especially when Beaky is Draigos foil, and intergral to the personal stake that Draigo has beyond simply GK R HATES THE CHAOZZZ!!
Its also important to remember, that ward and his coauthors where trying to fit epicness deserving of a GKGM, a bad donkey amongst the baddest donkeys, into like what 2 pages of fluff?
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Lynata wrote:I dunno, maybe it's because I have not bothered too much with the Ordo Malleus, but I'm used to see GKsganging up against individual hi-power daemons.
Not single GKs slapping them around. After punching through their guards.
What rank was Drogo when he pwned Mortarion, anyways? I mean, at least he had 100+ years of experience by now, not like in his first battle against a Daemon Prince.
In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.
It just takes a portion of the horror away, but this is just my feeling and maybe I *am* the only one in this. Maybe fleshing out the story as Gorskar suggested would help alleviate the issue, too, but at the moment it just looks "out of place" considering the role of daemons in the setting as I perceive it based on what I've read in the past.
In essence, Grey Knights have replaced Daemon Princes as the most powerful thing to possibly encounter on a battlefield, and I don't like this change.
Except you forget that mortarion "bitch slapped" Draigo's mentor around while getting pummled by him, draigo, and several other GKs irrc. Driago was enraged at the slapping of bitches, so he returned the favor to the weakened primarch, so no big woop and no weakness in the daemons. Just an instance of heroism/ hard donkeyism
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DarknessEternal wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
Having said that, combat was kinda Angron's thing, though. He was ace at it.
Also, none of those GKs were above the rank of Brother-Sergeant (Justicar now).
Grey Knights have been killing Daemon Primarchs literally since the first time they were mentioned. Everyone's shock at Draigo is misplaced since it's a perfect example of what Grey Knights have always done.
THANK YOU XD Also, is it not ok for Draigo just to be a supreme bad donkey? I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman. I would bet no one is crying foul because it was bruce waynes first day, and those guys he just trashed were hardcore gangsters and had been killing, fighting etc.. for years yadyada yada.
But anyways, Morty fans, Draigo pwnd your guy, and GK fans, Morty single handed, weathered a beating from several grey knights, and then porked your GM. So everyone wins... or loses... whatever
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I have never been on the bandwagon for draigohate.
When the dex said that Draigo "carved his mentors name into mortarions heart" I never took that even remotely literal.
I think what the dex ment was that the beating draigo delivered to the weakend mortarion kinda left the daemon prince with a "nasty taste in his mouth" for the death of draigos mentor. Turning what should have been a triumph into a shameful memory. Not that draigo pinned morty to the ground, asked him to kindly hold still while he just removed his heart for a second, all the while giggling "this is gonna be great", and then proceeded to etch "draigo hearts mentor" onto Mortarions heart
That would actually be a great deal more reasonable, but I would still like to hear the full story told, rather than a mere 4 or so lines. Let's be honest, a fight with a major canon character such as a Daemon Primarch should take precedence over Draigo's grudge with Beaky the Lord of Change any day.
Isn't Beaky the Lord of Change a major cannon character? And reasonable? I think it is when one considers the likely hood that Ward was using poetic license when referring to one of the major victories Draigo had over chaos (although Pyrrhic ) especially when Beaky is Draigos foil, and intergral to the personal stake that Draigo has beyond simply GK R HATES THE CHAOZZZ!!
Its also important to remember, that ward and his coauthors where trying to fit epicness deserving of a GKGM, a bad donkey amongst the baddest donkeys, into like what 2 pages of fluff?
Beaky, as I recall, pretty much exists to provide a foil for Draigo. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm just surprised that Mortarion doesn't also try to act on his grudge. Then again, making your character's rival someone immensely pivotal to the 40K mythos at large is probably far more overpowered than simply having him fight the guy that one time.
Also, I just think more should be devoted to it. It's a Primarch, after all, the duel deserves more than four lines.
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thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.
As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.
As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.
And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.
Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.
If Grey Knights are uncorruptable, super-pure, anethmas to daemons and the warp, why is it that a greater Daemon of Tzeentch is able to mess with Brother-Captin Stern so often?
Though I can understand Angrons need for violence, the other Daemon-Primarchs have moved on from reality.
Mortarion is the AVATAR OF DEATH! He isn't some mutated primarch, he is the champion of the god Nurgle.
He is above worldly things such as... whatever he was doing to invite the wrath of Draigo.
Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim ect have moved on with their eternal lives. The petty actions of mankind in the Imperium are of no import to them.
"Hmm, I'm bored of being omnipotent today, tired of all this 'deceiding who lives and who dies each moment of all existance'... think I'll travel to the mortal realms, turn myself into a fragment of my power...
daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.
Only detailed account of Angron getting whupped was during Armageddon I and that took some insane number of both Grey Knights and Space Wolves. I also don't think that any of them survived.
My point wasn't that daemon-primarchs can't be killed/cast back into the warp, it's that they should never be just straight up beaten.
The Draigo fluff would have been much better if he had gone all Angry Marine upon the death of the Grandmaster, then managed to do a suicide charge on Mortarion, getting him with a final 'from hell's heart I stab at thee' sort of move, at which point the whole getting sucked into the warp to wander forever thing happens.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Except you forget that mortarion "bitch slapped" Draigo's mentor around while getting pummled by him, draigo, and several other GKs irrc. Driago was enraged at the slapping of bitches, so he returned the favor to the weakened primarch, so no big woop and no weakness in the daemons.
See, if that's how it would be written ...
However, from how it sounds like, Montarion is never described as being in a weakened state in the actual text whatsoever. It's like "Draigo comes, Draigo sees, Draigo wins".
Can we get a citation, perchance? I do not own the Codex myself, so I'm relying purely on "what the internet says". And his description on the GW website as well as Ward's comment only further reinforce the stigma rather than dispelling it.
DK wrote:I like seeing this kinda thing, what is worse, being a Human and see a Bloodletter charge u...or being a bloodletter and a Grey Knight terminator charge u.
Bloodletters are Lesser Daemons. No biggie. Bloodletters get killed by non-Marines in single combat, too.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Four survived, actually, but yeah, Angron more or less murdered an entire company of GK.
An entire company of GKTerminators, no less.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.
Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.
The problem with the Draigo vs. Mortarion fluff isn't really that Draigo beat Mortarion. Yes, if you get both a Grand Master and the guy who's gonna be Grand Master of the Grey Knights together in one place, it's not that bad to say that they can banish a Daemon Primarch and his bodyguard.
No, what's bad about it is how it's done. They fight Mortarion. Cool! Grand Master Geronitan gets killed. Noooo! Draigo Hulks out! Yaaay! He beats up the bodyguards! Woooo! He turns on Mortarion! Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards? "Here, hold your boss down while I cut this name into his rotting heart, guys." "Sure, sounds like fun. Grab his legs, Bob. Boy, will this be a great story to tell the guys back in the Eye of Terror!"
I'm fine with Draigo winning against Mortarion, ok? He's a Grey Knight, he's a named character, he's supposed to be awesome against daemons, and he wasn't the only one there either. If the story had ended with Draigo going all ragetastic and banishing the weakened Mortarion, that would have been a perfectly decent piece of fluff. What ISN'T fine is Draigo not only winning, but somehow contriving to pin the dude down IN THE MIDDLE OF COMBAT and making like Grimdark Zorro with the contents of his chest cavity. And that isn't unacceptable because it's overpowered, but rather because it's amazingly DUMB.
Matt Ward deserves every single ounce of scorn he gets for this, because it's so unbelievably stupid that it literally breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'm fine with superpowered characters, but not with superpowered characters doing stupid, juvenile things "because they're awesome". Yarrick ripping off a Warboss's power klaw and taking it for himself? Yep, he's a badass. Lysander escaping the Iron Warriors daemon-world bare-handed? Eh. . . that's kinda OTT, but ok, he's a badass, I can deal with that.
Wazzdakka killing a Titan? That's a dumb piece of fluff, and I roll my eyes about it. Oh look, the skulls are STILL on fire. What?!
Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader? That's stupid. Really, appallingly stupid. And THAT, not the power-level involved, is really the problem with it.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader?
Oh boy. Someone pitch this to an artist at /tg/, this would make a hilarious drawing in their gallery. Mortarion looking to the side keeping his eyes closed shut whilst Draigo threatens to spit into his corrupted face.
I have to read up on that Titan bit, that's one thing that has escaped me so far. I'll trade it for the location of the "500 Space Wolves vs the Segmentum Pacificus" story!
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: I would wager all the people who complain about this, dont even bat an eye lash when bruce wayne went out and first day, pimp slapped a ton of baddies as batman.
As a Bats fan, I can confirm that actually he nearly died the first time he went out as Batman.
And that's the thing people miss. Good characters are fallible. They aren't casually described as cake-walking through the baddest mofos in the galaxy. They go out and fight and struggle and you have to root for them and hope they won't die.
Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.
In fact, if we continue this comparison a little further, we see that Batman is injured constantly while fighting crime. Constantly. There's a big deal made about how he had to reinforce his gloves 'cause he used to break his knuckles when punching superpowered crims who have unusual physical endurance, how he's often sleep-deprived to the point of not being able to function, and how he suffers from PTSD in the form of nightmares and occasional flashbacks, and that's without counting the plotlines where ol' Bats take such serious injuries that he nearly considers retirement (or indeed actually retires, if only for a short time).
I'm not saying this doesn't happen to Draigo, on the contrary; it must do, because to get where he is now means he's quite literally gone through hell several times. However, in a story which arguably should have had Draigo struggle against seemingly impossible odds yet win through like the righteous badass we know him to be, it's simply stated that he was able to beat Mortarion one time. No description, no nothing.
Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history. Chaplain Grimaldus, again, refused to die and managed to claw his way out of a ruin that fell on top of him. He is a righteous mothercusser, and he should be given the biggest tankard of beer ever.
Description and hardship, even extreme hardship, does not weaken a hero, but actually makes them more heroic.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader?
Oh boy. Someone pitch this to an artist at /tg/, this would make a hilarious drawing in their gallery. Mortarion looking to the side keeping his eyes closed shut whilst Draigo threatens to spit into his corrupted face.
I have to read up on that Titan bit, that's one thing that has escaped me so far. I'll trade it for the location of the "500 Space Wolves vs the Segmentum Pacificus" story!
It's in the Ork Codex: Wazzdakka kills a Warlord Titan by ramping off a cliff, riding his bike THROUGH the void shields and the (apparently very fragile) viewport over the cockpit, then killing the command crew in hand-to-hand combat. He takes their skulls with him as a trophy after he gets out (How?!). Said skulls are, according to the Ork Codex, STILL on fire after however long it's been. Perhaps he just douses them with squig-oil periodically. . .
The Space Wolves vs. the Segmentum Pacificus story comes from the 2nd Edition SoB and Space Wolf codexes, I believe. The Apostate Cardinal Bucharis managed to conquer an enormous fraction of the galaxy, ranging all the way from near Cadia in the north to Bakka in the south; basically, he appears to have owned around half the galaxy.
Then he attacked Fenris, and the Space Wolves held out against his military for three solid years without the Fang ever being breached. They appear to have occupied three-quarters of his entire military strength, and he could never beat them.
See, these are bad pieces of fluff for EXACTLY the same reason Draigo vs. Mortarion is; they don't even give a reason! If heroes do ridiculously hardcore things, winning through against incredible challenges, great! If they do plain ridiculous things with no regard for the difficulty, boo!
I think everyone is missing a couple little details here. First, Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch. There are few existing things that could give him a challenge. Draigo is not among them.
Second, good ol' Morty hasn't been out of his sanctum on the Plague Planet in almost 10,000 years. The fluff makes no sense. I like to pretend it doesn't exist.
BeRzErKeR wrote:The Space Wolves vs. the Segmentum Pacificus story comes from the 2nd Edition SoB and Space Wolf codexes, I believe. The Apostate Cardinal Bucharis managed to conquer an enormous fraction of the galaxy, ranging all the way from near Cadia in the north to Bakka in the south; basically, he appears to have owned around half the galaxy. Then he attacked Fenris, and the Space Wolves held out against his military for three solid years without the Fang ever being breached. They appear to have occupied three-quarters of his entire military strength, and he could never beat them.
Damn, you already knew.
Thanks for posting the Ork stuff, though! I don't even have an issue with the burning skulls (I'll just attribute it to the Waaagh field), but riding a bike through a Titan's head and through its void shields is just dumb. I won't deny that it's a very Orky thing to do, but it sticks out the usual stuff by not following established parameters, as much as that can be said about Orks in general.
This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Description and hardship, even extreme hardship, does not weaken a hero, but actually makes them more heroic.
Lynata wrote:
This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.
Exactly! Which is why I don't like the Mortarion bit; beating him isn't the problem, scrawling graffiti on his internal organs with your claymore is.
Durza wrote:In the Ork case, the fact that he was crazy enough to think that it was going to work is what made it work. That's how Orks get things done.
Yeah, but no. If that's how the setting would work, the Orks would win all the time and the Imperium wouldn't even bother sending Titans against them anymore. So it would seem that the Waaagh field is not a trump card for any kind of stupid gak.
You always have to judge these exceptional incidents in relation to the other accounts. To what is considered "normal". For a writer, there's leeway, and then there's ridiculously OTT.
Like Angron taking 100 GK Terminators to get beaten establishing a precedent, which then gets compared to Mortarion getting bitchslapped by a single dude.
Draigo wrote:In comparison is this really any more ridiculous then Thraka's titan kill? Or guardsman ripping heads and power klaws off? In comparative power levels theyre all ridiculous. Why cause its mortarion and not some supremely powerful greater daemon? I mean Angrons defeat never shocks people. Mortarion isnt even the strongest daemon the GK have killed in 1 on 1. lol
If you're referring to An'ggrath, that wasn't the Grey Knights, and Hector Rex had his True Name. I guess you could argue that Gharghatuloth is stronger than Angron, though.
I was refering to Gharghatuloth.
People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.
Thraka killing a titan.
That commissar pulling the arm off a warboss. (I mean find me a person who can pull lou ferigno's arm off.)
Numerous last stands of heroes last like Calgar.
Single psykers doing things get on the hive minds level.
Eldrad
Wolf Priest Ulric
Ngal Stormcaller
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Ctans actually dyin..
Imotekh is claimed to be the greatest strategist ever known.. Havent they made that claim on idk a character PER book. lol Abaddon's fluff claims hes equal to a daemon primarch.
Dante beat Skarbrand in a single blow.
Sanguinor pops up and the bad guys die..
Arjac
I could go on but the point is comparing the level of the idividuals with some of their accomplishements is just as outrageous or redundant in stormlords case.
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BeRzErKeR wrote:
Lynata wrote:
This, too, sounds like it could have been made into a nice bit of fluff if it was simply written in a less ridiculous way. For example a single sentence about the Titan already being damaged but "still moving on, seemingly unstoppable", then the Boss goes for his stunt and the text mentions how "in any other case, his ride would have found a quick end at the Titan's void shields", but then noting that they flickered in that very moment as his Boyz kept hurling shells at it, allowing the crazed Ork to land on the roof of the Titan's head, reach between the cracked plates of armour and using his inhuman strength to rip the head section open piece by piece, exposing the surprised crew. There you go. Still badass.
Exactly! Which is why I don't like the Mortarion bit; beating him isn't the problem, scrawling graffiti on his internal organs with your claymore is.
It might be literal. It might just mean Draigo put a whoopin on.
It might be literal. It might just mean Draigo put a whoopin on.
I assume you meant it might NOT be literal. But, well. . . if it isn't meant literally, then it's a very, VERY awkward metaphor without much by way of indication that it's supposed to be metaphorical. . . and either way, it's very bad writing.
Draigo wrote:
Thraka killing a titan.
That commissar pulling the arm off a warboss. (I mean find me a person who can pull lou ferigno's arm off.)
Numerous last stands of heroes last like Calgar.
Single psykers doing things get on the hive minds level.
Eldrad
Wolf Priest Ulric
Ngal Stormcaller
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Ctans actually dyin..
Imotekh is claimed to be the greatest strategist ever known.. Havent they made that claim on idk a character PER book. lol Abaddon's fluff claims hes equal to a daemon primarch.
Dante beat Skarbrand in a single blow.
Sanguinor pops up and the bad guys die..
Arjac
Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.
Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.
There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."
Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.
Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.
There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."
Because hyperbole which is obvious is meant to be literal?
Draigo wrote:
People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Source on this? Last time I looked Helbrecht was in charge of the Fleet Operations and had to resort to hit and run tactics because there were just too damn many Orks. They still won, in the end, but it cost them.
Draigo wrote:People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.
Awareness is one factor, but another would be our individual thresholds between heroic badassery and ridiculous exaggeration - influenced partially by our personal preferences regarding how much action we like to see or read about (as well as its relation to the setting; one can still enjoy "Rambo" whilst knowing it's unrealistic), as well as potentially blurred by army-specific bias.
There's no accounting for taste, though - we could just as well get into a fight over who likes and who hates the new Star Trek movie.
What we have here is, in my opinion, a classic case of different target demographics. Some people gravitate towards grimdark realism, others prefer epic/legendary feats of heroism. It's why FFG's Deathwatch RPG employs significantly different rules than its Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader counterparts, to bring us full circle back to 40k.
Yarrick is described as holding off his own death just long enough so he can kill the warboss that ripped off his arm. That is badass to a level that defies every historical badass in history.
Read up on Hispanics who have earned the Metal of Honor.
There's a man who had the top of his head blown off in Vietnam. He stood up, continued to charge, killed several cong and carried a few people out of the jungle. All this before someone said "Dude, your brain is exposed."
And of course Simo Hayha, who killed over 500 Russians in 100 days, survived a series of carpet bombings aimed at just him and then got shot in the head with an explosive bullet. And then he got better after a week in hospital.
Durza wrote:Abaddon is meant to be equal to a daemon primarch, and he's accomplished at least as much as them in the last ten thousand years.
Yeah, Abaddon actually is supposed to be like a Daemon Primarch. He's the heir of Horus, the Warmaster of the Traitor Legions and he has the favor of all the Chaos Gods.
Draigo wrote:
People pick and choose what fluff they like so it's understandable that the Draigo part they don't like but theres been many more cases of OTT fluff that no one cares or maybe doesn't remember.
Helbretcht and a squad of men running through Thraka massive waagh like it was nothing. The same Thraka who single handidly killed a Titan.
Source on this? Last time I looked Helbrecht was in charge of the Fleet Operations and had to resort to hit and run tactics because there were just too damn many Orks. They still won, in the end, but it cost them.
Did somebody compare Draigo to Batman! Heresy! But that's what we're dealing with: A bunch of Batman fans eagerly opening their new gnarly Batman comic and finding effin' essentially-indestructable Superman all over it (again...).
As mentioned already, it's all about the details of the account, not the act of a GK being lucky against a Daemon.
As to the Ork vs Titan, I always took that as an homage to the A-Wing trashing the Star Destroyer... who knows what's possible (now and then) with them Orks? Whereas we've got a better idea what's possible where humies are concerned - you have to be a bit more careful with the humie Heroism dial (when doodling on Daemon Primarchs under the nose of his bodyguard, or punching Avatars...).
Lynata: Just coz it's you [this is all of it]:-
'901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.'
Worth mentioning that the breathless incorrect tense style is a really tawdry rhetorical trick too, which any lover of the written word has every right to hate and despise, regardless of the passage's other possible virtues. It's one of those 'done well and sparingly it can be effective' methods that lazy hacks use all the time to make their words seem more EXCITING!!!! and urgent (rather than going to the trouble of actually making them more exciting on their own merit).
Compare and contrast with the (correct in tense) writing style of 3rd Ed Codex fluff.
tsz52 wrote:Lynata: Just coz it's you [this is all of it]:
Thank you! Much appreciated.
This makes the following clear to me:
- "Alone and unaided", clarifying that Mortarion was unaffected by his previous encounter with Draigo's boss
- "the Daemon's vile heart", clarifying that it really does refer to the organ itself
- "Mortarion ultimately escapes", clarifying that Mortarion wasn't actually killed, he was temporarily incapacitated
My personal verdict is cast. Too bad, I had actually entertained the thought that the internet may have simply played it up beyond the actual contents as it does ever so often.
Certainly it would be possible to re-interpret the incident in a less ridiculous way, but this would contradict the actual wording in the Codex and as such only serve as proof of its quality.
tsz52 wrote:Compare and contrast with the (correct in tense) writing style of 3rd Ed Codex fluff.
Man, I miss those days. Or better yet, 2E. Back then you actually had detailed information about a faction's organization, history and equipment in your Codex.
I just really hate how pretty much every named Space marine / GK manages to kill like bloodthirsters, demon princes, Avatars. Like a bloodthirster Could be killed by a space marine how? Bloodthirsters are infinitely better at fighting than ANY human being, even geneticly enhanced super soldiers. Mortarion, a primarch blessed with the demonic gifts of nurgle, got beat down by ONE human? Thats equally rediculous, I don't care who that human is. The Demons have been soo far belittled, its really stupid. I love the demons, they're my only army I actually have almost completely painted. I read their fluff and they're the most powerful beings in the 40k universe, then I read some SM or GK fluff and they get pushed around like a guardsman. Yeah, I know GK is anti-demon and all that, but come on Mortarion is a demon primarch. I just despise how GW keeps crapping on other people's fluff to boost anothers. A great example is how like, every other space marine legion is now inferior to the ultramarines? Ultramarine's have the purest geneseed and all, but all of the other chapters have done so much more for the imperium.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards?
Mortarion's body was dead.
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Lynata wrote:
In general, stories like these just have me question why organizations such as the GKs and SW are not doing more to help the Imperium. When Draigo is supposed to be "not that exceptional", a single company of Grey Knights should easily be able to punch through the Eye of Terror.
Conversely, it makes daemons look weaker.
Such an act would kill a bunch of Grey Knights and do nothing to the daemons. Daemons don't die when they're "killed", they go home for awhile.
Grey Knights who die are dead forever.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Everybody seems to forget the meaning of the word "Primarch" and how insanely strong they are.
When you put "daemon" in front of that, you make something Grey Knights are built to kill.
And Primarchs aren't unkillable. They've been killed by mortals, and many more were at least certain enough they could do it (and had intimate knowledge of a Primarch's abilities) that they were willing to try.
Excerpt from Codex : Grey Knights (I can quote this stuff, right ?)
He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten.
In one and a half page of background. Yeah.
I think good things bear emphasizing, but there were just too many good posts to quote them all here. Apologies for the artificially long post.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Mary Sue characters get called out because, well, they're just bad writing. Sure you can do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify Draigo doing what he did, but at the end of the day it's just a poorly written character. In the right hands, he could have been made way cooler and more epic if he had struggled single-handedly against Mortarion and LOST, but somehow survived and vowed revenge for his fallen master. See, that was easy, it makes him more interesting and likable, and inspires no fanboy rage.
This, so very very much.
People, we don't hate on Draigo/Ward because we're mean interwerbz trolls. The problem is simple : the Draigo/Mortarion "duel" is plain bad writing.
I mean, it can be forgiveable. In Little Red Riding Hood (spoilers ahead !), the hunter opens the wolf's belly and saves the girl and her grandma who had been eaten. Then they stuff the wolf's stomach with stones so he feels funny when he awakes later. It's told approximately in those very words, and the style is perfectly suited to the tale. It's perfectly credible : the wolf is the bad guy so you can do anything you want to him, and the girl and her grandma are innocent victims so they can't possibly die.
So you accept and even enjoy it, because you're five year old and someone is reading you a bedtime story.
Forgive me if I'm being a lil' more critical than that about a 40k codex.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Matt Ward deserves every single ounce of scorn he gets for this, because it's so unbelievably stupid that it literally breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'm fine with superpowered characters, but not with superpowered characters doing stupid, juvenile things "because they're awesome". Yarrick ripping off a Warboss's power klaw and taking it for himself? Yep, he's a badass. Lysander escaping the Iron Warriors daemon-world bare-handed? Eh. . . that's kinda OTT, but ok, he's a badass, I can deal with that.
Wazzdakka killing a Titan? That's a dumb piece of fluff, and I roll my eyes about it. Oh look, the skulls are STILL on fire. What?! Draigo pinning Mortarion down like a schoolyard bully beating up on a first-grader? That's stupid. Really, appallingly stupid. And THAT, not the power-level involved, is really the problem with it.
QFT.
It could have been made credible if written well, but as it stands, it sounds like a wish fulfillment self-insert story the aforementioned first-grader would have written to take revenge on the bully.
In fact a lot of things in this codex sound this way now that I think of it.
Aaaand, there were other most pleasant folks who made me laugh heartily, and for this you have my thanks.
Johnny-Crass wrote:This part of Angron's fluff I always loved
"My lord are you planning yet another crusade?"
*very loud raging*
"But my lord maybe this time you should not try and take on a army of grey knights by yourself."
*louder raging*
"Fine see you in a couple weeks my lord"
BeRzErKeR wrote:They fight Mortarion. Cool! Grand Master Geronitan gets killed. Noooo! Draigo Hulks out! Yaaay! He beats up the bodyguards! Woooo! He turns on Mortarion! Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards? "Here, hold your boss down while I cut this name into his rotting heart, guys." "Sure, sounds like fun. Grab his legs, Bob. Boy, will this be a great story to tell the guys back in the Eye of Terror!"
I can not roll my eyes enough for the "Mortarion's not that tough" argument. Mortarion is a Daemon-Primarch of Nurgle. He's a super-primarch! He may be the toughest character in the entire 40k setting that is not a god. And that is exactly why he was chosen: so he could get "worfed" and therefore show that Draigo is the bestest fighter ever. Seriously, it's just bad writing.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Gasp! He. . . he. . . pins him down and carves a name into his heart with a sword? What. . . what the feth? Did Draigo just happen to be carrying a massive set of chains that day? Did he hog-tie Mortarion with something? Did he. . . I dunno. . . enlist the help of the bodyguards?
Mortarion's body was dead.
Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?
Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.
There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.
DarknessEternal wrote:Such an act would kill a bunch of Grey Knights and do nothing to the daemons. Daemons don't die when they're "killed", they go home for awhile.
Grey Knights who die are dead forever.
It may not have a long-term effect on daemons, but an Imperial crusade through the Eye of Terror would see a boatload of worlds cleansed of traitor Guardsmen, mutants and Chaos Marines. And those don't come back so easily.
Grey Knights can be replaced. 50% of the original Astartes Legions emigrating into the Eye of Terror to form the very basis of any large-scale Chaos incursion into Imperial territory so far ... not so much.
Unless we assume a second Heresy, ofc.
Normal people cannot survive in the Eye of Terror for any significant time: only Draigo could.... he should be sufficient to destroy the remaining traitor legions anyway.
Good point, but I guess it would be enough (or certainly help a lot) to just cleanse those planets on the outer regions that have been, uh ... settled by people. If one could use this term for their living style.
Make all the traitors pay, destroy their manufactoriums and shipyards, TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES
Spoiler:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:he should be sufficient to destroy the remaining traitor legions anyway.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Normal people cannot survive in the Eye of Terror for any significant time: only Draigo could.... he should be sufficient to destroy the remaining traitor legions anyway.
I agree. After doing all that IN WARP, what is couple of thousands traitor Legionaries for him? Like a candy bar to small child.
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DarknessEternal wrote:
When you put "daemon" in front of that, you make something Grey Knights are built to kill.
Yeah, like they killed Angron on Armageddon. And losing slightly less then 100 TERMINATORS in process.
And Primarchs aren't unkillable. They've been killed by mortals, and many more were at least certain enough they could do it (and had intimate knowledge of a Primarch's abilities) that they were willing to try.
That would be like some random Ork nob in time of Great Crusade go trough the Space Wolf Guard and defeat Leman Russ in combat then carve the name of his Warboss on his hearth.
And point me to were it is said that Grey Knights know fallen Primarch new abilities as Daemon Princes? Especially for Mortarion who didn't leave plague planet for 10.000 years.
I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment
But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.
BeRzErKer wrote:
Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?
Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.
There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.
On second thought, both. Definitely both.
In the "Purging of Jollana" story in the Grey Knights codex, the Grey Knights are described as "burning the daemon carcasses" at the end of the battle.
I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment
But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.
Calgar and Tigurius have been around since 3rd and Cassius since 4th. Calgar taking down the Avatar was AFTER it had been beaten on by terminators and heavy wepaons. Calgar was also taken down and out maneuvered by the Swarmlord. Tigurius has simply gleaned some info from the Hive Mind. Do you notice an ant in your house right away? If you want OTT characters look at Blood Angels. They unfortunately got stuck with the Sanguinor aka living deus ex machina. Look at Grey Knights with their plethora of I can't die because destiny.
But I digress, for all of those who wish to rationalize Draigo's fluff or try to down play it remember Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is usually correct. Draigo is to be taken at face value. As it stands he literally carved a name with his sword into a Daemon Primarch's heart while everyone stood and watched, even the Primarch. He literally bounces around the realm of chaos messing with all the chaos gods. Any other explanation of the fluff as written requires too many additions and too many hoops to jump through to make work.
I think you'll find Helbrecht was conducting a Guerilla war on Thraka's hulk. I think you'll also find that in no place in Helbrechts entry is it detailed how many warriors he fought with leaving it open to speculation. He could have been doing it with a chapters worth of marines or maybe just a company. You're also failing to realise that both Thraka and his fleet were under significant imperial bombardment
But I digress. I beleive that we are all over thinking the whole issue. Mr. Ward is renowned for his OTT characters; Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius to a lesser degree, the list goes on. But what He has done here is so stupendously silly that it requires the biggest of face-palms. To kill a Daemon-PRIMARCH, not some prince, A PRIMARCH, a Nurgle one at that in CQB after swatting his bodyguard away like the flies that most likely surround them, beating Mortarion to the ground (remembering he is a primarch) then carving his dead masters name into his heart is simply too stupid. Especially when Angron for all intents and purposes, took out a GK TERMINATOR company before being banished.
Yeah, yet he didnt go OTT with any of the marine characters in the codex that aren't smurfs.
Also how do you carve a name into someones heart? Wouldn't that be difficult?
Also thay would reqquire bone cuttters and alot of stuff to carve off the muscle and power armor? All that requires time which it stupid n the battle feild.
BeRzErKer wrote:
Uh. . . says who? Can you give me a quote about that?
Remember the part that says he escaped afterwards? That doesn't sound very dead to me . . . Furthermore, why would daemons even leave physical bodies behind when they die? They're pure Warp energy held together by willpower; there's no reason they would leave a body behind unless they for some reason WANTED to.
There are so many aspects of the story that simply make no sense (in addition to being very poorly written) that it makes me want to pimp-slap Matt Ward with a copy of Strunk and White. Or possibly a Roget's Thesaurus.
On second thought, both. Definitely both.
In the "Purging of Jollana" story in the Grey Knights codex, the Grey Knights are described as "burning the daemon carcasses" at the end of the battle.
Why would they burn something that didn't exist?
Iranna.
And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?
Who's to say that their material bodies wern't being sustained by the various warp rifts that were open across the planet and only their conciousness returned through the rift?
Even if they were all closed at the end of the battle, the daemon bodies would have been saturated with Warp Energies: it also explains how daemons can survive outside of the warp after all their conduits have been closed.
The planet in which Mortarion was on was likely riven with similar warp storms/rifts, allowing his material body to remain in existence.
You see how problems can be solved when you take a deeper look into them?
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
And yet in other codexes, such as the CSM and Chaos Daemons one, daemons are given as being inherently unstable, and (get this) requiring immense amounts of energy invested in them just to stay tangible in the material universe. It makes no sense for them to exist afterwards, once the consciousness of said daemons has returned to the Warp and there is therefore nothing holding the body together. How can you burn wat at that point would be a bunch of dissipating emotions, anyway?
Now, if this had taken place in, say, an area of Warpspace, it would be a different story. But if that was the case, then Mortarion's body wouldn't have stayed behind as he was already in the warp at the time of his defeat, which means he couldn't be banished...
You see the problem this whole thing opens up?
Who's to say that their material bodies wern't being sustained by the various warp rifts that were open across the planet and only their conciousness returned through the rift?
Even if they were all closed at the end of the battle, the daemon bodies would have been saturated with Warp Energies: it also explains how daemons can survive outside of the warp after all their conduits have been closed.
The planet in which Mortarion was on was likely riven with similar warp storms/rifts, allowing his material body to remain in existence.
You see how problems can be solved when you take a deeper look into them?
No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.
No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.
Not when they are being sustained by the Warp itself.
No, not really, given that a daemon's consciousness is intrinsically linked to it's physical form, and that the daemons have to will themselves to stay in existence.
Not when they are being sustained by the Warp itself.
Iranna.
But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.
But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.
You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.
A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.
When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.
However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.
I actually consider it a tiny hobby of mine to look for explanations (read: excuses) for various GW descriptions that, at first glance, may seem a bit weird. But even with this approach one can only get so far until it becomes a hollow, transparent attempt at justifying BS out of principle.
To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a Mary Sue is just a Mary Sue."
Was the Jolanna story contained in the very same Codex as the Draigo bit, by the way? For if it comes from the same guy, then this would easily explain why it differs from the older descriptions. Maybe Ward just didn't bother to read up on the old stuff. Or maybe he just liked his own ideas better. Keep in mind that 40k as a whole has little consistence (though I am used to greater overlap amongst studio material) and the GKs as a whole have changed quite a bit with this book, it seems. Maybe daemons have changed, too.
Not that this would be of any consequence concerning Mortarion, given that - for whatever reason - he was not killed during this encounter in the first place.
You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.
A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.
When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.
However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.
Iranna.
Even if this is true (which it could be; it's reasonable, at least) it still doesn't answer two questions.
1) Where does it say that Mortarion was dead? In fact, it says he escaped later. That's an active statement, indicating that he took action to get away, which would sort of require him to be both alive and present.
2) What the feth was Draigo doing, practicing his graffiti skills on the internal organs of a Daemon-Primarch (whether dead or not) while there was work to be done? At the very least, he had clean-up and purging to be overseeing.
My point is, in order to justify this in any way you have to bend over backwards so far that your head is between your legs. It's a dumb piece of fluff; genuinely dumb. And once again, I'm NOT saying that because of the power levels involved, I'm saying that because it's badly written and poorly explained.
But that's the point. It would make no sense for a GK to stop and burn a body whilst there were still rifts for functional daemons to come through, and once they'd closed the rift, the bodies would have dissipated, taking care of the problem. From what I've read of the GK, that'd be their priority, first and foremost. Even on a world with rifts, the daemons can only last so long as the rift is active, after all.
You seemed to have ignored my post about daemons being able to sustain their bodies in real space without the aid of the warp, so I'll re-iterate it for you.
A daemon does not need the Warp to survive (granted it will not last long without it and will be severely weakened), it simply requires the energies of the warp, which are stored in its bodies, like energy in human beings.
When the energy runs out, then they dissipate.
However, if their bodies are still saturated with said energy, then you are able to burn said bodies as they still have a physical presence in real space.
Iranna.
Wow, that was unnecessarily snarky.
And, incidentally, you seem to have ignored MY point about GK Priorities. Yes, a daemon works kinda like that, but if an active warp rift is on a planet, then it stands to reason that the GK would try to seal it first, itbeing the bigger threat because more active daemons can use it to enter the universe, before dealing with any leftover bodies - which, now that they are cut off from a renewable source of warp energy and (more importantly) the consciousness needed to keep said body stable and tangible, would dissipate.
Even if this is true (which it could be; it's reasonable, at least) it still doesn't answer two questions.
1) Where does it say that Mortarion was dead? In fact, it says he escaped later. That's an active statement, indicating that he took action to get away, which would sort of require him to be both alive and present.
2) What the feth was Draigo doing, practicing his graffiti skills on the internal organs of a Daemon-Primarch (whether dead or not) while there was work to be done? At the very least, he had clean-up and purging to be overseeing.
My point is, in order to justify this in any way you have to bend over backwards so far that your head is between your legs. It's a dumb piece of fluff; genuinely dumb. And once again, I'm NOT saying that because of the power levels involved, I'm saying that because it's badly written and poorly explained.
It is.
1) It doesn't, but he doesn't need his body to escape; he is a daemon after all.
2) He just defeated a daemon-primarch and his bodyguards in single combat. I'm sure that he could allow himself 30 seconds to enact a measure of humiliation.
It doesn't matter how obscure the justification is, just that the point is justified, which it is. A dumb piece of fluff would have absolutely no explanation at all, which this has plenty of. People generally are just unwilling to look deeper into fluff if it doesn't make sense to them at first. Perhaps instead of wanting everything spelled out, people should utilise their own analysis; it'll help you immerse yourself into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment.
Iranna.
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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Wow, that was unnecessarily snarky.
And, incidentally, you seem to have ignored MY point about GK Priorities. Yes, a daemon works kinda like that, but if an active warp rift is on a planet, then it stands to reason that the GK would try to seal it first, itbeing the bigger threat because more active daemons can use it to enter the universe, before dealing with any leftover bodies - which, now that they are cut off from a renewable source of warp energy and (more importantly) the consciousness needed to keep said body stable and tangible, would dissipate.
It's the internet, grow a thicker skin, it'll come in handy.
You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.
Again, you seem to assume that once all rifts are closed that the warp energy dissipates immediately; it doesn't. Also, a daemon does not requite a conciousness to survive, it requires warp energy which it stores and absorbs.
Iranna wrote:
You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.
Again, you seem to assume that once all rifts are closed that the warp energy dissipates immediately; it doesn't. Also, a daemon does not requite a conciousness to survive, it requires warp energy which it stores and absorbs.
De ja vu anyone?
Iranna.
My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being. It requires the willpower of a daemon to stop said energy from taking some other, nonsentient form, or simply erupting and destroying things.
In the case of Mortarion, yes, I'd say that Draigo probably didn't need to worry about rifts, but at the same time if Mortarion wasn't killed by him, then his body would still have been functional. "He's a daemon" does not cover a reasonable method of escape; as long as his consciousness is bound to it, that body's the form he takes until banished.
Iranna wrote:You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.
I would assume the other GK's around were simply dead, given that they did not join the battle. It would be weird to just stand in the corner and watch; this is a display of "duel honour" that might have a place in some ordinary Marine Chapters, but not with the Grey Knights as they were described.
Unless of course we assume that Draigo was a pimp and just went like "STAND BACK EVERYONE, this one is mine!"
Not that the presence of any warp rifts would matter, as Mortarion was still alive anyhow. Though I assume he would have escaped through one. Makes more sense than him running to a lander.
1) It doesn't, but he doesn't need his body to escape; he is a daemon after all.
2) He just defeated a daemon-primarch and his bodyguards in single combat. I'm sure that he could allow himself 30 seconds to enact a measure of humiliation.
It doesn't matter how obscure the justification is, just that the point is justified, which it is. A dumb piece of fluff would have absolutely no explanation at all, which this has plenty of. People generally are just unwilling to look deeper into fluff if it doesn't make sense to them at first. Perhaps instead of wanting everything spelled out, people should utilise their own analysis; it'll help you immerse yourself into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment.
Right.
First off; I don't particularly believe that I need to see things your way in order to " immerse [my]self into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment", thanks all the same. I can have a perfectly deep 'understanding' of the grimdark future while still rolling my eyes when GW gets carried away and vomits something ridiculous onto the page. Your superciliousness is not particularly appreciated.
Secondly; It does, in fact, matter how much effort you have to go to in order to explain something; or rather, it matters what kind of effort you have to go to. It's perfectly fine for something to have an obscure reason that reaches ties back into previous stories and requires you to know a lot about the background of the players involved; that's interesting. It's NOT perfectly fine if in order to try and drag a possible (and, honestly, still not particularly convincing) justification out you have to handwave things and assume facts that the author doesn't give you any evidence for.
The Wazzdakka story about the Titan, for instance; yeah, there are possible explanations. Maybe the Titan was already damaged. Maybe Wazzdakka had a kustom void-shield distorter with him. Maybe the energy field of a power klaw shorts out void shields briefly when they come in contact. Maybe this particular Princeps was incredibly arrogant and always wanted a good view, explaining why his cockpit was apparently covered in glass, and maybe Wazzdakka has rocket thrusters on his bike to let him steer. All things that could explain what happened.
But that doesn't change the fact that the story is stupid. And the fact that you can come up with a couple possible ways this could maybe have happened, likewise, don't make the story any less unintelligent.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being.
In which case, quote it. If you don't quote then I and everyone else must assume that you are being speculative.
Daemons are created by their patron. They then gift the daemon with a body to reside in. The body can still remain when the conciousness does not, think of the body as a house. The house does not collapse when you leave for work. However, this house can be animated by these "unstable" energies without the need for a concious will ebbing it on.
Iranna.
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Lynata wrote:
Iranna wrote:You also seem to have missed the point in which Draigo assaulted Mortarion alone that means, the other Grey Knight forces would be running around shutting off rifts etc.
I would assume the other GK's around were simply dead, given that they did not join the battle. It would be weird to just stand in the corner and watch; this is a display of "duel honour" that might have a place in some ordinary Marine Chapters, but not with the Grey Knights as they were described.
Unless of course we assume that Draigo was a pimp and just went like "STAND BACK EVERYONE, this one is mine!"
Not that the presence of any warp rifts would matter, as Mortarion was still alive anyhow. Though I assume he would have escaped through one. Makes more sense than him running to a lander.
Many Space Marines value the honour of a duel and refuse to intervene as it is dishonourable.
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Right.
First off; I don't particularly believe that I need to see things your way in order to " immerse [my]self into the lore and gain a deeper understanding of such a dystopian environment", thanks all the same. I can have a perfectly deep 'understanding' of the grimdark future while still rolling my eyes when GW gets carried away and vomits something ridiculous onto the page. Your superciliousness is not particularly appreciated.
Secondly; It does, in fact, matter how much effort you have to go to in order to explain something; or rather, it matters what kind of effort you have to go to. It's perfectly fine for something to have an obscure reason that reaches ties back into previous stories and requires you to know a lot about the background of the players involved; that's interesting. It's NOT perfectly fine if in order to try and drag a possible (and, honestly, still not particularly convincing) justification out you have to handwave things and assume facts that the author doesn't give you any evidence for.
The Wazzdakka story about the Titan, for instance; yeah, there are possible explanations. Maybe the Titan was already damaged. Maybe Wazzdakka had a kustom void-shield distorter with him. Maybe the energy field of a power klaw shorts out void shields briefly when they come in contact. Maybe this particular Princeps was incredibly arrogant and always wanted a good view, explaining why his cockpit was apparently covered in glass, and maybe Wazzdakka has rocket thrusters on his bike to let him steer. All things that could explain what happened.
But that doesn't change the fact that the story is stupid. And the fact that you can come up with a couple possible ways this could maybe have happened, likewise, don't make the story any less unintelligent.
No, you don't need to. It'd be beneficial if you did but that's your decision of course.
It really does not, all that matters is that it can be explained. Your argument was that it didn't make sense. With my reasoning, it makes sense. Regardless of how far-fetched it may be, it fits. I have already said that I'm using my own analysis - you have just as much input as I.
Here, you use the exact same logic as I, using your own analysis to come to conclusions.
You can think that and you're just as right as me. I simply believe that the story makes sense.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
My agruments are based on evidence from the CSM and Chaos Daemons codexes, the previous CSM codex and a lot of BL stuff, all of which deal with the subject specifically in hand.
Not so much an assumption now, is it?
A daemon does need it's consciousness to survive outside of an area of direct warp energy, which is why they last at all outside of the warp; yes, they do so on limited time due to the lack of permanent energy, but warp energy is also inherently unstable, and requires more than a simple supply of it to form it into a coherent being.
In which case, quote it. If you don't quote then I and everyone else must assume that you are being speculative.
Daemons are created by their patron. They then gift the daemon with a body to reside in. The body can still remain when the conciousness does not, think of the body as a house. The house does not collapse when you leave for work. However, this house can be animated by these "unstable" energies without the need for a concious will ebbing it on.
Why? You didn't quote yours.
Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.
After previous fluff I think you guys are putting too much into this for the sake of primarch in his name. Theres been countess feats in 40k killing daemon princes and other various beasties by men or marine that is beyond their station.
Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.
Because I'm not quoting anything, I am being speculative and using my own analysis to provide an explanation.
Well, it's obvious at this time that a lot of posters in this thread are not aware of background material, and they also violently wish to remain ignorant of it.
DarknessEternal wrote:Well, it's obvious at this time that a lot of posters in this thread are not aware of background material, and they also violently wish to remain ignorant of it.
Also, though the analogy you're giving is actually a pretty good one, it's more correct to view the daemon's body as an extremely unstable and dangerous nuclear facility. Once the staff is gone (in the form of consciousness, if you don't mind an awful metaphor) there's nobody there to stop the thing detonating. It's the same with warp energy; once daemonic consciousness is gone, it unravels, usually failry violently, as there's nothing controlling the stability of the form. This is discussed in the CSM codex, though you may have to wait for a citation whilst I find it. It's probably under my ork stuff somewhere.
Because I'm not quoting anything, I am being speculative and using my own analysis to provide an explanation.
I'll wait.
Iranna.
Sorry about the wait, lots of sprues and all to shift.
Anyway, in the previous CSM Codex, the daemons had a special rule to reflect the fact that they had to control their own stability. It was called, rather logically, Daemonic Instability.
Basically, according to it, when on the losing side of combat the stress of maintaining their physical presence can become too much for daemons, and so their forms dispel and they may return to the warp.
A direct quote to support it:
"Whilst this grants them a considerable degree of power it also means that they struggle to maintain their presence in the real universe."
I will say that the quote is somewhat interpretable, though; I personally take both it and the rule to mean that a daemon needs to maintain it's form with it's own willpower, even if that is the form it's summoners 'granted' it.
Honestly, at this stage, it's kinda clear that any real debating has sort of run it's course; I've made my case, and you've made yours. Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.
Sorry about the wait, lots of sprues and all to shift.
Anyway, in the previous CSM Codex, the daemons had a special rule to reflect the fact that they had to control their own stability. It was called, rather logically, Daemonic Instability.
Basically, according to it, when on the losing side of combat the stress of maintaining their physical presence can become too much for daemons, and so their forms dispel and they may return to the warp.
A direct quote to support it:
"Whilst this grants them a considerable degree of power it also means that they struggle to maintain their presence in the real universe."
I will say that the quote is somewhat interpretable, though; I personally take both it and the rule to mean that a daemon needs to maintain it's form with it's own willpower, even if that is the form it's summoners 'granted' it.
Honestly, at this stage, it's kinda clear that any real debating has sort of run it's course; I've made my case, and you've made yours. Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.
Unfortunately, that rule is no longer used so I'm afraid that it doesn't really have any validity today; it's been replaced by newer material. Strictly speaking, tabletop rules can't be relied upon in a debate such as this because many do not represent what actually happens in the fluff.
I completely agree that it should have had a story dedicated to the paragraph itself similar to the length of the "Purging of Jollana", it could have perhaps prevented this thread.
I completely agree that it should have had a story dedicated to the paragraph itself similar to the length of the "Purging of Jollana", it could have perhaps prevented this thread.
Iranna.
I think there's no "Could have" about it. People would be making threads complaining about different things, if so.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Ultimately, my opinion still stands that it would have been more fitting to give the duel a bigger write-up, as it does sound like one of those epic duels that 40K has done well in the past, but I can appreciate that Ward had a limited amount of space in which do write Draigo's fluff in.
Be careful what you wish for. In the "limited amount of space" provided Ward does not describe anything resembling an "epic duel" at all. What he describes is a super badass beating up a primarch and all his toughest minions singlehandedly without breaking a sweat. Given more space Ward would undoubtedly have simply used it to elaborate on how a sobbing Mortarion begged the mighty Draigo to spare his life before fleeing in disgrace, leaving behind only a puddle of urine.
I do dislike this Draigo entry too.
I really don't mind the outcome but the style is just painful. Some stupid grenade has better and more detailed entry than two almost god like immortal beings ditching it out.
I think it should be handled in two ways:
a) The drama, the struggle, blood, tears, force of spirit/will, luck, skill, rage, preparation, emotion! I mean this entry:
daveNYC wrote:The focus on the term Worfing isn't that it makes the victor look awesome, it's that it cheapens and degrades the character that is being Worfed. Avatars are supposed to be walking iron skinned, magma blooded, manifestations of the Eldar god of murder. Pretty impressive until you remember the bit where Calgar just punches one to death. Hard to take as seriously after that. Same thing for Mortarion, he's the chosen champion of Nurgle, the immortal power of decay fused with a being created to be humanity's champion by the Emperor himself. One of the twenty strongest beings every in existance in this galaxy, fallen into darkness and become stronger because of it. And he got beat up and vandalized by single Grey Knight because he was winded after fighting the guy's boss.
Bolded for awesomeness. I mean Draigo could as easily be fighting a plank with a face painted on it.
b) Absolutely no description at all. Yes and I mean it. Why are people not raging about Maugan Ra vs Tyranids? (I know, because people really don't care about the Eldar ) But also because there is soooo much room for interpretations and external factors.
Draigo entry is the worst middle ground between those two. Too long and detailed for 'historical note' / too easy, clean and boring for a description of demigods fighting.
A problem with the 'Mortarion left his corpse behind' argument for me is that I've always understood a daemons prince to be a mortal transformed to a being as powerful as a Greater Daemon by the Chaos powers. They rely on the Warp to survive, but they are still tied to their original mortal body in its new form. Of course, the only thing I'm basing that on is the fluff at the end of the 3rd ed codex about the transformation of a CSM to daemon prince, so I'm probably entirely wrong.
There is no stated piece that he left a corpse. Just that he escaped. Aside from that how can a daemon leave a corpse? Isnt his body/soul one and the same. Kinda the reason their body isnt lying on the ground when they possess people.
Draigo wrote:There is no stated piece that he left a corpse. Just that he escaped. Aside from that how can a daemon leave a corpse? Isnt his body/soul one and the same. Kinda the reason their body isnt lying on the ground when they possess people.
It really helps when you read what has been said you know?
We have said that it was conjecture, our own interpretation using recalled knowledge. However, there is no up to date evidence to say that daemons do not leave corpses.
There is evidence to say that they do: the "Purging of Jollana" story.
Now if you go ahead and read page 4, you'll see how this could be possible.
Lynata wrote:I actually consider it a tiny hobby of mine to look for explanations (read: excuses) for various GW descriptions that, at first glance, may seem a bit weird. But even with this approach one can only get so far until it becomes a hollow, transparent attempt at justifying BS out of principle.
To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometimes a Mary Sue is just a Mary Sue."
Was the Jolanna story contained in the very same Codex as the Draigo bit, by the way? For if it comes from the same guy, then this would easily explain why it differs from the older descriptions. Maybe Ward just didn't bother to read up on the old stuff. Or maybe he just liked his own ideas better. Keep in mind that 40k as a whole has little consistence (though I am used to greater overlap amongst studio material) and the GKs as a whole have changed quite a bit with this book, it seems. Maybe daemons have changed, too.
Not that this would be of any consequence concerning Mortarion, given that - for whatever reason - he was not killed during this encounter in the first place.
Are you saying Studio material is not the holy word of God Lynata!!?! How dare you? HOW DARE YOU!?!
Draigo wrote:There is no stated piece that he left a corpse. Just that he escaped. Aside from that how can a daemon leave a corpse? Isnt his body/soul one and the same. Kinda the reason their body isnt lying on the ground when they possess people.
It really helps when you read what has been said you know?
We have said that it was conjecture, our own interpretation using recalled knowledge. However, there is no up to date evidence to say that daemons do not leave corpses.
There is evidence to say that they do: the "Purging of Jollana" story.
Now if you go ahead and read page 4, you'll see how this could be possible.
Iranna.
It also really helps if you can actually affect what was written you know?
But seeing as GW didnt then I guess you get to swallow it and move on.
Draigo wrote:There is no stated piece that he left a corpse. Just that he escaped. Aside from that how can a daemon leave a corpse? Isnt his body/soul one and the same. Kinda the reason their body isnt lying on the ground when they possess people.
It really helps when you read what has been said you know?
We have said that it was conjecture, our own interpretation using recalled knowledge. However, there is no up to date evidence to say that daemons do not leave corpses.
There is evidence to say that they do: the "Purging of Jollana" story.
Now if you go ahead and read page 4, you'll see how this could be possible.
Iranna.
Doesn't it say in that entry that the daemons were sent back to whence they came?
Regarding daemon corpses, remember that there are two ways for a daemon to manefest in the physical universe.
1) They enter through a warp rift, or are summoned using sorcery, often entering through an area where the barrier between the warp and realspace is weak.
2) They possess someone and twist their body to suit their needs.
In the first instance, the body may or may not exist once the warp rift is shut down, or the energy supporting the summoning disappears. In the second, there would most likely be some physical remains, though what exactly they would end up looking like would be up for grabs. There is a slight issue with the conservation of mass regarding greater daemons and the average target of posession.
They could just be normal possessed that are so heavily mutated that you can't tell the daemon is gone. Though being dead would help with that I guess.
Doesn't it say in that entry that the daemons were sent back to whence they came?
I believe that they are described as making a "great pyre of daemon carcasses" I'm paraphrasing here however.
Draigo wrote:No Im just rather put off to bother reading back by your smug attitude.
This is the internet. If you can't grow a thicker skin then don't post. Do not use your own faintness of heart as an excuse as to why you refuse to see the previous made points in the argument.
Well Iranna you never actually presented proof and just shot down those that did so you are just argueing for the sake of arguing. Not a matter of skin its a matter of knowing when to cut and run cause you can argue till your blue in the face and never have proof with all the paraphrasing and oh I think so stories.
Draigo Iranna said before that he was speaking hypothetically.
If you've got a problem with that then demand he state sources or ignore him. Its not difficult
Draigo wrote:Well Iranna you never actually presented proof and just shot down those that did so you are just argueing for the sake of arguing. Not a matter of skin its a matter of knowing when to cut and run cause you can argue till your blue in the face and never have proof with all the paraphrasing and oh I think so stories.
There's two severed daemon head trophies in the standard GK box. Those wouldn't exist if the corpses vanished instantly.
Draigo wrote:Well Iranna you never actually presented proof and just shot down those that did so you are just argueing for the sake of arguing. Not a matter of skin its a matter of knowing when to cut and run cause you can argue till your blue in the face and never have proof with all the paraphrasing and oh I think so stories.
As I have explained prior, I have no proof in the form of quotes to present to you, feel free to disregard my interpenetration if you so wish.
I did not "shoot down" those who 'proved' their points, I pointed out the glaring holes and problems with their arguments; that's what you do in a debate, rebut the opposite side.
Also, many of my points were actually backed up with fact, if you'll check, it was my analysis that utilised paraphrasing; something I am quite permitted to do as if I paraphrase, that means that there is something that supports this.
The Gk codex should not be counted as fluff, along with all of the new hot garbage ward writes.
oh and GK is a Dick codex. Why yes, I have had two full squads of wolf guard power-raped by paladins w/librarian walking out of a stormraven with shrouding after i dumped 16 plasma shots and 8 melta shots on it, was I that obvious? lolz
Draigo wrote:Well Iranna you never actually presented proof and just shot down those that did so you are just argueing for the sake of arguing. Not a matter of skin its a matter of knowing when to cut and run cause you can argue till your blue in the face and never have proof with all the paraphrasing and oh I think so stories.
There's two severed daemon head trophies in the standard GK box. Those wouldn't exist if the corpses vanished instantly.
They are, in fact, deamon heads. I have the sprues right next to me with sprues of deamon heads next to those lol
It is always entertaining to see the Ward apologists contort their brains into a pretzel as they try to justify Draigo.
Granted, I still am not sure why Draigo beating Mortarion is treated as the most outrageous thing ever. Since, well, it is by no means the most impressive thing he has done.
The reason Draigo is hated is not "merely" because he bested a Daemon Primarch in single combat, it is the very unsatisfying way it was written. Draigo, after a hard-fought battle, pushed to the brink of demise and only carrying on due to his heroic resolve, and then besting Mortarion, while still unlikely, could at least be an enjoyable read.
But the way the fluff was written, no sense of epicness or struggle is conveyed, just "Draigo chewed ass and kicked bubblegum bwah". He then goes on to do more things.
Draigo is not so much of a character as he is a force of nature who runs around and does things. Even by 40k codex standards, he is a pretty shallow character, edged out only by arguably Marbo. Maybe. They are about the same to me, personally, albeit Draigo is worse for making what should be some of the most feared beings in the galaxy look downright pitiable in their ineffectualness.
Johnnyboy955 wrote:The Gk codex should not be counted as fluff, along with all of the new hot garbage ward writes.
oh and GK is a Dick codex. Why yes, I have had two full squads of wolf guard power-raped by paladins w/librarian walking out of a stormraven with shrouding after i dumped 16 plasma shots and 8 melta shots on it, was I that obvious? lolz
Well it is fluff, even if you don't agree with it.
Grey Knights may be a strong codex yes, but it's by no means a "dick" codex. Also in your example, that one unit (5 Paladins, 1 Librarian and a Stormraven delivery method) costs 530 points bare, no upgrades. That means that when everything gets upgraded, it stands at about 650-700 points for one unit. That severely limits his support and troops options and you could've taken advantage of this better; Paladins with Librarian support will beat basically any unit in the game.
Johnnyboy955 wrote:The Gk codex should not be counted as fluff, along with all of the new hot garbage ward writes.
oh and GK is a Dick codex. Why yes, I have had two full squads of wolf guard power-raped by paladins w/librarian walking out of a stormraven with shrouding after i dumped 16 plasma shots and 8 melta shots on it, was I that obvious? lolz
Well it is fluff, even if you don't agree with it.
Grey Knights may be a strong codex yes, but it's by no means a "dick" codex. Also in your example, that one unit (5 Paladins, 1 Librarian and a Stormraven delivery method) costs 530 points bare, no upgrades. That means that when everything gets upgraded, it stands at about 650-700 points for one unit. That severely limits his support and troops options and you could've taken advantage of this better; Paladins with Librarian support will beat basically any unit in the game.
Of course there is a simple explanation for this encounter: Draigo was empowered by Tzeentch at the time. This would be the first, but not the last time that the Changer would bestow his favor upon the Grey Knight.
In fact, this explains much about the grand master, including his semi-random nature, and the reason that he never makes any lasting progress, just like Tzeentch on both counts.
If you dont like draigo and 5 pallys get into combat with swarmlord with some of his retinue. Pray you have good luck vs Shadow or a banner cause if not you may be lookin at ws 1 and a whole lot of death. lol
TheRobotLol wrote:They is the dickiest codex around
No.
Let's not turn this into another "GREY KNIGHT=CHEESEY OP!!!" lock-worthy thread.
Iranna.
Agreed.
Especially as, if they really were, they wouldn't get run over by my ork horde and dragged down by sheer weight of numbers.
Hordes are to GK what Kryptonite is to Superman.
As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........
Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........
Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..
Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........
Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..
No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.
Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........
Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..
No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.
This.
The closest thing Ghazghkull has ever come to being defeated is fighting Commissar Yarrick, and that wasn't so much Yarrick beating him as Yarrick managing to survive for long enough that Ghazghkull decided it would be more fun to let him live (so they could fight again later) than it would be to rip him to bits.
Nobody else who's ever fought Ghazghkull hand-to-hand has won, not since he led the tiny beginnings of his Waaagh off Urk way back when. There's actually only one other noted hand-to-hand engagement I can recall; he fought Belial (the future Grand Master of the Deathwing) on Piscina IV, broke his spine and left him for dead. Belial survived, though; I guess once he was paralyzed Ghazghkull got bored and wandered off. Orks are like cats, you know, toys that can't scream and run away just don't hold their interest.
Also; people keep saying 'Ghazghkull killed a Titan'. Where'd that come from? Ghazghkull's ARMY destroyed at least one Titan on Piscina IV, but I've never seen any fluff saying that Ghazghkull PERSONALLY killed a Titan. Source, please?
Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........
Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..
No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.
This.
The closest thing Ghazghkull has ever come to being defeated is fighting Commissar Yarrick, and that wasn't so much Yarrick beating him as Yarrick managing to survive for long enough that Ghazghkull decided it would be more fun to let him live (so they could fight again later) than it would be to rip him to bits.
Nobody else who's ever fought Ghazghkull hand-to-hand has won, not since he led the tiny beginnings of his Waaagh off Urk way back when. There's actually only one other noted hand-to-hand engagement I can recall; he fought Belial (the future Grand Master of the Deathwing) on Piscina IV, broke his spine and left him for dead. Belial survived, though; I guess once he was paralyzed Ghazghkull got bored and wandered off. Orks are like cats, you know, toys that can't scream and run away just don't hold their interest.
Also; people keep saying 'Ghazghkull killed a Titan'. Where'd that come from? Ghazghkull's ARMY destroyed at least one Titan on Piscina IV, but I've never seen any fluff saying that Ghazghkull PERSONALLY killed a Titan. Source, please?
There is no such source, it's an assumption derived from a piece of fluff detailing some graffiti found on the wreckage of a Warlord Titan.
Also, yeah, every Imperial hero who has fought Ghazghull one-on-one has lost. Yarrick was headbutted to the floor and left for dead due to the other injuries he took, and Belial got his back broke.
daveNYC wrote: If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.
Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.
Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived. Just saying. Try naming some other times he was beaten.
Yeah, people need to stop lying when they discuss Angron.
Angron was beaten by something like thirty Grey Knight Terminators combining their power, making the result greater than the sum of its parts, and blasting Angron, trying to weaken his grip on reality. Notably, unexpectedly, Angron was still holding on, just barely. Only then did a Grey Knight behead a stunned Angron.
The thing about psykers and the warp and a universe where you have gods and acts of faith and generally other hard to measure 'magical' deus ex machina is that it's hard to say when and when it doesn't apply. Was it Draigo alone (by his own skill) who beat Mortarion or did he have supernatural aid (and I'm not just talking the Emperor - it could have been a Saint, a Primarch, or anything.) Were there unusual or random/freak warp conditions involved (Daemons aren't uniformly powerful, especially in realspace - if their connection to the warp is tenuous they can be greatly weakened even in a powerful host.) Hell for all we know Draigo died in the action (in truth) and the only thing that exists is his warp spirit (an Imperial Daemon.)
It's hard ot say when all you got to go on is interpretation, and it has to be borne in mind that there is just alot we don't know about the incident. Taking every little bit of spoken word as 100% absolute gospel and ignoring everything else is risky (one reason I so dislike codexes as primary evidence - so much of it tends to be slanted favorably towards the group the Codex is based upon, and it tends to over-generalize like hell
The problem is that, as people have stated before, the defeat of a Primarch deserves AT LEAST a page or detail to flesh it out. One doesn't just blithely throw out a Primarch as a meter stick to measure badassness against. That is why nearly everyone hates Draigo fluff for that handful of sentences. It could have been made believable, it COULD have worked. It could have been compelling. Instead we get a tiny shard of fluff that makes us all tear our eye balls out trying to rationalize.
BrainDeleted wrote:Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived.
Yes, and they were also fighting Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard (which number higher than Mortarions if I recall correctly) as well as all the other Daemons around (which Draigo almost certainly wasn't. I wonder what kept them off. It's pretty much down to either his Psychic power or other Grey Knights fighting). Afterall, we're talking about the Supreme Grandmaster and all the Grandmasters being present here. That's going to be a very large proportion of the Grey Knights fighting on this battlefield, and they were almost certainly winning (or at least in little overall danger) before Draigo took down Mortarion.
The Grey Knights fighting Angron were also all lower ranking than Draigo, and conceivably much less powerful. Draigo is clearly exceptionally powerful, and considering he's a Psyker, it makes a fair amount of sense that he could be several steps above the rest (not so much the stuff in the Warp to be fair).
BrainDeleted wrote:The problem is that, as people have stated before, the defeat of a Primarch deserves AT LEAST a page or detail to flesh it out. One doesn't just blithely throw out a Primarch as a meter stick to measure badassness against. That is why nearly everyone hates Draigo fluff for that handful of sentences. It could have been made believable, it COULD have worked. It could have been compelling. Instead we get a tiny shard of fluff that makes us all tear our eye balls out trying to rationalize.
No, this is one of those instances where less is more. Fleshing it out would have been a mistake, IMO.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:You know all grey knights are psychic right?
Yes, yes I do.
However, they are not of a uniform power. Draigo could be an Alpha Psyker for all we know.
Ascalam wrote:Daemon primarchs... way beyond just powerful.
But as with all Daemons, hugely limited in certain terms. I'm not actually sure if it's ever said that the Primarchs increased in power when they ascended, but even if they did, they still took on some key weaknesses. Weaknesses that the Grey Knights are specifically given the knowledge and training to exploit.
I just finished eating lunch to this thread, and I have to say it's pretty amusing to see people trying to rationalize or defend such horridly lame fluff.
Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.
That said, we aren't given any details at all regarding what went down, unless I'm missing something(I'm reading p38 of the codex), and that's the more important failing in this fluff -- it exists in the form of like 5 lines of text where you would expect it to detail how it took an elite cadre of the chapter's best warriors in terminator armor *alongside* Draigo and his master to stop Mortarion(where Draigo comes out as the sole survivor, since apparently he's just that badass).
BrainDeleted wrote:Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived.
Yes, and they were also fighting Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard (which number higher than Mortarions if I recall correctly) as well as all the other Daemons around (which Draigo almost certainly wasn't. I wonder what kept them off. It's pretty much down to either his Psychic power or other Grey Knights fighting). Afterall, we're talking about the Supreme Grandmaster and all the Grandmasters being present here. That's going to be a very large proportion of the Grey Knights fighting on this battlefield, and they were almost certainly winning (or at least in little overall danger) before Draigo took down Mortarion.
The Grey Knights fighting Angron were also all lower ranking than Draigo, and conceivably much less powerful. Draigo is clearly exceptionally powerful, and considering he's a Psyker, it makes a fair amount of sense that he could be several steps above the rest (not so much the stuff in the Warp to be fair).
Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.
Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.
Well, Gerantan wasn't able to stand alone against Mortarion, and we don't know if Mortarion fought other Grey Knights beforehand.
Void__Dragon wrote:An Alpha Plus Psyker? I wouldn't consider one of those equal to 30+ Grey Knight Terminators combining their powers, to be honest.
Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.
My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?
Durza wrote:
Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.
I've heard that he has two, but thinking about it I'm not sure where I got that from. Ah, according to Lexicanum it's from Flight of the Eisenstein, which is Heresy Era and as such it may have changed since.
I meant that the Grey Knights victory as a whole wasn't really in danger. I mean, the Grandmasters had enough time to nominate Draigo and then recognise him as their new Supreme Grandmaster. They're unlikely to have been fighting desperately.
Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.
Fair point. They'd presumably have more experience and such, for what that's worth. Draigo's still clearly very special though.
Any special charecter can lose to another special charecter, if they are unlucky or if the lore is written that way. The 40k universe has so many instant death weapons, which would seem unstoppable (even if other special charecters are immune to the instant death rule). So, you could have a super powerful special charecter, and a lucky Lascannon shot could kill him if his ward save failed. Besides, I read that despite being so powerful, Daemon Princes are actually deemed to be less powerful compared to actual named Greater Daemons. And stat wise, its definitley that way, because a Daemon Prince has worse stats compared to a Bloodthirster, for example.
I atually think its fine that Daigo won. The Grey Knights managed to banish Angron on Armaggedon as well. So they must have "killed' him then, or they couldn't have banished him. Killing a Daemon Prince, even one that is a Primarch just means that they are banished back to the warp where they will be reborn there. Its no biggy. It just happens rarely because they usually don't venture out of the eye of terror in the first place.
40k also has massive vehicles and dreadnaughts and such, so even a bloodthirster, when facing a nemesis dreadknight or an ironclad, might actually come out worse. And if there are things that can kill a bloodthirster, then what more a daemon prince primarch?
Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.
Well, Gerantan wasn't able to stand alone against Mortarion, and we don't know if Mortarion fought other Grey Knights beforehand.
Void__Dragon wrote:An Alpha Plus Psyker? I wouldn't consider one of those equal to 30+ Grey Knight Terminators combining their powers, to be honest.
Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.
My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?
Aye, Typhus left because Mortarion modelled his daemon world on Barbarus, his home world, and hardly ever left. The reason he was there is simple, you see, because MATT WARD.
Durza wrote:
Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.
I've heard that he has two, but thinking about it I'm not sure where I got that from. Ah, according to Lexicanum it's from Flight of the Eisenstein, which is Heresy Era and as such it may have changed since.
That'd be the Death Shroud. Two terminator armoured marines with Manreapers. I doubt Mortarion would've brought just them though.
I meant that the Grey Knights victory as a whole wasn't really in danger. I mean, the Grandmasters had enough time to nominate Draigo and then recognise him as their new Supreme Grandmaster. They're unlikely to have been fighting desperately.
Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.
Fair point. They'd presumably have more experience and such, for what that's worth. Draigo's still clearly very special though.
That would be one thing you can say about him, yes.
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Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.
Mortarion doesn't look like the typical Nurgle servant for one. He's a skeletal figure, so his heart would be easy enough to find. It would only take a hundred Grey Knights to take down a primarch if Angron's a good measuring stick.
I doubt it would have been quality, though. I prefer to let my imagination flesh out the conflict.
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Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.
Theres a dumbass somewhere in this equation, but it isn't Mat Ward
I really don't understand the hate here. Use your imaginations people!
My imagination is currently blocking Draigo from existence in the 40k universe. Also, it's blocking the part about necrons killing C'tan. And Grey Knights following the codex astartes. And Calgar being a spiritual liege rather than the head of the primary chapter of the legion that 60% of the Space Marines are made from. And the Sanguinor's existence.
Seriously, Grey Knights deserved better than the Codex they got.
Interestingly I just started reading Game of Thrones, lol.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.
My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?
Angron is probably stronger stand-up than Mortarion, yeah, but Mortarion was still considered unusually resilient for a Primarch, and Nurgle blesses his servants with even greater resilience, sometimes psychic powers, and of course being a walking epidemic.
But yeah, it is more the way the fluff is written, than Draigo beating him in general.
Fluff is sort of schizo concerning that. Index Astartes on the other hand states that he chose a world close to the rim of the Eye of Terror so that Mortarion could more easily stage attacks on realspace.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Any special charecter can lose to another special charecter, if they are unlucky or if the lore is written that way. The 40k universe has so many instant death weapons, which would seem unstoppable (even if other special charecters are immune to the instant death rule). So, you could have a super powerful special charecter, and a lucky Lascannon shot could kill him if his ward save failed.
Actually, no. Daemon Princes have the "eternal warrior" rule, meaning that it takes more than one hit to take 'em down.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Besides, I read that despite being so powerful, Daemon Princes are actually deemed to be less powerful compared to actual named Greater Daemons. And stat wise, its definitley that way, because a Daemon Prince has worse stats compared to a Bloodthirster, for example.
NO. BAD. BAD! A Daemon Prince is to a Daemon Primarch as a rectangle is to a square. You see, Daemon Primarchs are always Daemon Princes but most Daemon Princes are not Daemon Primarchs. Those stats are intended to represent none Daemon Primarchs. Actual Daemon Primarchs have done insane shizz.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I atually think its fine that Daigo won. The Grey Knights managed to banish Angron on Armaggedon as well. So they must have "killed' him then, or they couldn't have banished him. Killing a Daemon Prince, even one that is a Primarch just means that they are banished back to the warp where they will be reborn there. Its no biggy. It just happens rarely because they usually don't venture out of the eye of terror in the first place.
The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."
Eldenfirefly wrote: 40k also has massive vehicles and dreadnaughts and such, so even a bloodthirster, when facing a nemesis dreadknight or an ironclad, might actually come out worse. And if there are things that can kill a bloodthirster, then what more a daemon prince primarch?
Daemon Primarchs are stronger than the average Daemon Prince. Furthermore, Angron had a body guard of 12 Bloodthirsters. How could he manage to enslave all of them if any single one of them could take him down?
LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."
Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.
I also felt that it need even the barest of details. Right now it sounds like he simply walked up to Mortarion, punched him a few times, carved his heart, and walked away like nothing happened. If there was even the most basic of details it could be interesting and plausable.
ie. Seeing that Mortarion is vulnerable, a force of Grey Knights engaged him, Mortarion, being a Daemon Primarch and all, killed most of them including the Grand Master. However this made him weak after the long battle allowing that sole surviving member, Drago, to defeat Mortarion and carve the chapter master's name into Mortarion's heart before banishing him or something. Leaves room for the imagination, allows Mortarion to retain some dignity and appear a threat, and Drago a badass
However I like to think that simply this is all a dream of Drago and he hasnt actually done any of this. It is simply the Chaos gods fething with him while he is trapped in the warp.
Galdos wrote:ie. Seeing that Mortarion is vulnerable, a force of Grey Knights engaged him, Mortarion, being a Daemon Primarch and all, killed most of them including the Grand Master. However this made him weak after the long battle allowing that sole surviving member, Drago, to defeat Mortarion and carve the chapter master's name into Mortarion's heart before banishing him or something. Leaves room for the imagination, allows Mortarion to retain some dignity and appear a threat, and Drago a badass
Firstly, if that was all spelled out for us, it would be wrong. I mean, at some point the writer would stuff it up, and you'd all be up in arms about how it couldn't be possible because of X, Y and Z.
Secondly, do you really need all that spelled out for you?
LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."
Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.
But thats not how it went down.
That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.
Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT. Most codex fluff written by other authors is plausible. Calgar killing an Avatar of Khaine: plausible, unlikely. Pask killing a Chaos Titan: Plausible, unlikely. Ward has a tendancy to be utterly INPLAUSIBLE with his fluff: Draigo, Imotekh mutilating Helbrecht, and before I recieve a megaton of "Don't listen to him, He's a BT fanboy" I tested out the Emperor's Champion out against him. Killed him, 3 times. The Champion died once. Bearing in mind that Helbrecht is harder than the Emperor's Champion, I now completly ignore his fluff because of the sheer amount of facepalming needed to remain on the border of sanity,
LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."
Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.
But thats not how it went down.
That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.
Well, theres no accounting for peoples lack of vision or imagination, I guess.
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The Crusader wrote:Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT
No, I grasp that fine. I don't see it as a problem, because I can imagine it in my head and it is perfectly plausible.
LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."
Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.
But thats not how it went down.
That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.
Well, theres no accounting for peoples lack of vision or imagination, I guess.
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The Crusader wrote:Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT
No, I grasp that fine. I don't see it as a problem, because I can imagine it in my head and it is perfectly plausible.
5(or so) lines of text doesn't make Ward an artistic genius who understands the value of leaving things to the reader's imagination -- that's just bad writing.
As was mentioned, it would have been much better if Ward went into detail about how, for instance, it took a powerful and likely numerous killteam of GK to take on Mortarion, with Draigo being the sole survivor. Not only would that, you know, make actual sense, but it would better accomplish the goal of making Draigo a heroic character.
Ronin-Sage wrote: 5(or so) lines of text doesn't make Ward an artistic genius who understands the value of leaving things to the reader's imagination -- that's just bad writing
Problem being that Wards writing isn't the best. I won't go so far as to say it's actually bad. I think it's ok. But to pull of a story of that magnitude and execute it well would require some serious skill, and I just don't think he'd be up to the task.
I like that it only has a few lines of text dedicated to it, because I can imagine the fight going down any way I want.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:It is given precisely 4 lines in the codex, as Mat Ward doesn't want to explain how a space marine, even a feth-hardcore one, is able to overcome a Daemon Primarch for long enough to tattoo things into his internal organs.
What's written is written, man... We'll have to wait until the next GK codex to right the wrong that's been done
Kaldor wrote:Problem being that Wards writing isn't the best. I won't go so far as to say it's actually bad. I think it's ok. But to pull of a story of that magnitude and execute it well would require some serious skill, and I just don't think he'd be up to the task.
I like that it only has a few lines of text dedicated to it, because I can imagine the fight going down any way I want.
Ward being an inherently bad writer isn't an excuse for vague, bad fluff.
I was suprised beatin Mortarion was a few lines but they gave a lot of attention to his bout with the greater daemon and his escapades in the warp. I like Draigo in game but his fluff is well a cause for eye rolling kinda like mephiston, sanguinor, thraka, the art collecting necron, etc.
Kaldor, it is not a case where we should have to use our imagination.
It is the genesis of the character, his establishing moment, the event that crowned him Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, or in layman's terms Strongest Mothafrakka of the Most Elite Bunch of Mothafrakkaz in the Galaxy. If one guy has ever deserved to be made the embodiment of awesomeness, it is him. Thus, we have every right to expect his establishing moment to pack quite some wham!, if I may say so.
And what do we get ? A few botched lines that make it feel like it was Tuesday.
Dude, if you like the character, you can only agree he deserved better.
That he was actually capable of besting Mortarion, I do not deny. Over-the-top though it may appear, his status imposes that he be the stuff of legends and Grey Knights are the nemesis of daemons if there ever was one, so on paper I'm okay with that.
If done right. Read this to really grasp the matter at hand. The fact a Daemon Primarch would be beaten in single combat is already a stretch. As I said, I can go with it. But when instead of the appropriately epic duel unfolding before my avid eyes I get a measly footnote saying "this Draigo dude kicked Stinkarion's rotten ass big time", all I can do is grind my teeth. Such a wasted opportunity. Such carelessness in handling the story.
You say Mr Ward would have screwed it up either way had he took the time to flesh out the event.
Then nothing forced him to put that bit in the story at all. If you cannot do something well, you don't do it. Common sense. Admittedly he was the lone writer on the codex and had to write something. Maybe he didn't even like writing that. But he did, and he could have easily done better had he wanted to. (Disclaimer : I have nothing against him as an individual and after weighting the incoherent bits and the improvements on the Daemon Hunters dex I am in fact rather happy about his work. Doesn't change the fact he had a couple derpy moves in the fluff section.)
You know what's more sad ? Something that has not been touched in this thread but is directly related : the duel "takes" four-ish lines. Draigo weighs two pages of background.
And how is all this space used ?
To consecrate him as a Boring Invincible Hero, retroactively validating the point that he likely only vanquished Mortarion not thanks to the Emperor's light, but thanks to the Author's blessing.
I do find Draigo's story cruelly lacking, all the more since I can see myself using the model at some point in time. Nothing personal though, I'm not a literary critic on a mission to purge poor writing where I find it (as my lengthy post might make you think) ; I just like to write as a means to practice argumentation and the language
Just a couple of pointers to some people that are making some quite odd arguements.
1. Mortarion was not known for his combat prowess.
No he wasnt, atleast amongst his fellow primarchs. Primarchs, not fellow space marines. That is not to say he was the worst of them either. A handful of or less of the 18 known primarchs were famous because of their abilities in battle, that does NOT mean that the remaining primarchs were weak or even on the same level as the most powerful marines. They were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.
2. Draigo is said to carry the Emperors gene-seed.
So? Mortarion is a primarch, he definitely carries the Emperors gene-seed. Arguement invalid.
3. The whole "the story doesnt need to be fleshed out" arguement.
Im sorry, what? How could you possibly hold a straight face while saying that? There is no way. For a Grey knight, even an exceptional one such as Draigo, to first of all get close enough to Mortarion to do the deed would be so incredibly difficult that its nearly unimaginable. He is surrounded by traitor marines infused with the power of Nurgle, making the Death Guard whom are already legendary for their resilience even more so. Do you have any idea how difficult, deadly and demoralizing it must be to fight such an army? Not to mention he would have to deal with the Death shroud, two of Mortarions most trusted, capable and well equipped troopers. Even without the infusion of chaos im sure these two warriors would be able to stand their own against almost anything the galaxy can throw against their primarch. Last but not least ofcourse, there is Mortarion himself. He is a primarch. By definition that means he on a higher level of badassery than any "vanilla" marine could even hope to achieve, even a Grey knight. He is also infused by the power of chaos and has been elevated to the status of Daemon prince, one of the most powerful beings in the entire galaxy. For one man to push his way through a sea of unrelenting marines, face off against Mortarions chosen bodyguard, win and then start backhanding the primarch himself as if it were child's play while scribbling stuff on his internal organs is so unlikely that... I dont even know what compares to it. I really dont.
If you cant do it well, dont do it at all. It has been mentioned before in this thread. In this case it fits so well. It is by far the most stupid thing Ward has even written and that story itself deserves atleast 2 pages to be justifiable. No one likes a Marie-sue character. Only a fan boy would argue otherwise and that is exactly what we are seeing here.
Beaviz81 wrote:But Kaldor Draigo is the 19th. Primarch. At least that's the only way he makes sense to me. So that's mean the Grey-sues is either Legion II or XI.
Which is impossible as the other two primarchs along with their legions have been killed of, or atleast it is hinted at IIRC, by the SW. Not to mention the fact that the Grey knights were created during the second founding which makes it impossible*2.
He never died IIRC, he has been banished to the warp is all. He only appears in the fluff in the late M41 which makes this highly unlikely. The two missing primarchs are just that, missing. Whether they are dead or off on a holiday somewhere doesnt matter as they are not part of the 40k setting. Draigo is not a primarch, I think that is simply wishful thinking.
Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.
What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.
Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?
I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.
Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?
If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.
Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.
What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.
Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?
I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.
Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?
If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.
If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."
There is absolutely nothing in anything written about Draigo that conveys any sort of effort on his part aside from, sort of ironically, his fight with M'kar. That a fight with some dickweed Daemon Prince who is the designated whipping boy of 40k at the moment reads off as more of a challenge than fighting a Daemon Primarch isn't good writing, it's bad writing.
There is no sense of effort on Draigo's part conveyed through the writing, and no, really vaguely statements are not better than detail. Lord of the Rings is not written like this: "Some hairy-footed short guys called Hobbits and elves and men and dwarves and a Wizard left to destroy the One Ring. The party was separated and a fat Hobbit and a whiny Hobbit went off alone with the Ring. A bunch of wars with Orcs happened but the heroes defeated the Orcs, and the Witch King was killed by a woman and a Hobbit. Frodo then destroys the One Ring."
Mortarion's bit of fluff is unsatisfying, sure, I could fill in random unsupported details to the fight, and I have actually for the sake of an example of what might have made this fluff okay, but that doesn't change that what is written there is crap.
I seem to recall owning the Primarch models and some grey Knights when i played Epic.
GK termies were about 2 mm high, and 5 to a base.
Daemon priimarch were on scale with a Knight. minititan.
I still use my Magnus as a Tzeentch Herald. He's about the size of a Horror of Tzeentch. On an epic battlefield he's about the same height as 4 or five rhinos, stacked.
He was my primary Titan-killer, too. One shot from the eye-beam, and goodnight Mr Warlord..
Primarchs are SM + sized. Big space marines.
Daemon Princes are about 4 space marines high, thereabouts.. Seriously big.
Daemon Primarchs would seem to be bigger.
Makes the heart easier to find and carve i suppose, if he lies down and lets you monogram his internal organs
**sidenote - I have had one grot kill Calgar with a rusty derringer. The guy can supposedly hold off whole waaghs by himself for days. ... These sort of things can happen, but i'd expect a decent fething story of how Modo the Grot stalked a Chapter Master and put him down like a rabid dog.
Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.
What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.
Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?
I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.
Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?
If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.
If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."
Exactly. "Then Draigo beat Mortarion" as a complete story is the highest form of literature possible by his reasoning.
Kaldor wrote:If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.
That's all we can canonically confirm that happened.
EDIT:- (Suspending disbelief for two seconds to assume that Draigo beating Mortation is plausible).
Matt Ward is being paid for this, he should have used his imagination to provide an adequate springboard for our imagination, because all we got is 'Draigo + Geronitan fight Mortarion, Geronitan dies, Draigo bitchslaps'. Seriously, what the frak?
The annoying thing about it is that this was a monumental duel during which Draigo's mentor was slain - therefore prime ground for character development for the Emperor's sake! - and all we get is 'Draigo won'. This should be his defining moment! If it were handled as his great achievement, the point where he came into his own and cemented his legend in the annals of the Imperium's Heroes, and FLESHED OUT A TAD, I probably wouldn't be so skeptical. But it's mentioned almost as a side-note. Just another Tuesday.
"Oh, and yesterday I beat up Mortarion and his bodyguard and carved my mentor's name into his heart. Seemed like the poetic thing to do, you'know? To make sure he never forgets and all that jazz, anyway, what's done is done, tomorrow I'm going skiing..."
This was THE Grey Knights Grand Master dueling with THE Mortarion. Come on. This wasn't done justice.
Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.
What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.
Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?
I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.
Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?
If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.
If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."
First of all you have obviously missed my point. I never said that Mortarion could never be beaten by the likes of Draigo, I just pointed out that some arguments made by people had no credibility.
I have no problem imagining anything. The problem lies not with the people you are arguing with on this thread (some of whom have some pretty great pieces of writting posted in the fiction section, pretty sure that means they have no problems with their imagination) but the person you are protecting. This was arguably the most important moment in Draigos life, it should be fleshed out and detailed. It shouldnt be a side note. Even a fanboy like yourself should be able to see where we are coming from. It is a defining moment and should be treated as such. It needs detail to be justifiable. Those 5 lines could have been written by a 6year old and that is exactly why they are so atrocious. It DESERVES to be fleshed out.
Several examples of your logic has been presented since my last post and I couldnt agree more, it doesnt make sense. Either you are too stubborn to admit that you might be wrong or you are too blinded by Draigo's shiny-ness to see reason. You and the people who share your opinion in this thread are a minority, and theres a reason for that.
DK wrote:Its because Chaos makes you weak...And Draigo is a badass, also its written... a grot killing the god emperor is not...its happened, chaos is a joke.
Yes, Chaos definately makes you weak. That's why Daemon Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, Sorcerers and other Chaos blessed guys have worst stats than the average Guardsmen. Wait a second...
And you clearly didn't read any of the post beyond that one sentence. He was arguing that it's good fluff because it leaves the details up to your imagination. So I said that by that logic, the sentence "A grot kills the Emprah" is great writing because it leaves a ton to the imagination, like 'how the feth did a grot kill the Emprah?'
This is just horrible fluff courtesy of a bad writer. And that's why I have my own little bubble of personal canon that's a fusion of Rogue Trader and 3rd Edition style fluff and that sort of thing. Back when Warhammer 40k authors actually understood what the setting was about and made sure to not let fanwank get in the way of good writing. End rant.
I always viewed the drago story as a moral boosting propaganda story. Only then does it make sense. The iom is failling. Deamons are slipping into the materium more frequently, and even if the GK are super space marines their still part human. Theyre susceptable to moral issues. So the masters get together and twist the story of draigo. Instead of Draigo and a squad of paladins slaying mortarian its only draigo, and instead of draigo dying he is instead sucked into the warp, and fights the good fight and sometimes escapes just to help.
Why do people consider the Grey Knights to be just like normal space marines? Grey Knights are on a whole other level of toughness. They are above and beyond the lesser Chapters and are extremely specialised at fighting daemons.
So its not surprising that a daemon got killed.
Seriously, Grey Knights deserved better than the Codex they got.
What, you mean they didn't deserve a playable codex? Good luck with their previous one...
GoldenKaos wrote:The annoying thing about it is that this was a monumental duel during which Draigo's mentor was slain - therefore prime ground for character development for the Emperor's sake
Thatguy91 wrote:It DESERVES to be fleshed out.
I agree, but I don't think it could have been done without turning the book into Codex: Kaldor Draigo. He's a tough nut, as established by the bitch-slapping, but what makes him interesting is the ultimate failure of his actions, being trapped in the Warp and all. Like a lone saint wandering the streets of hell. In order of things that needed to be fleshed out, that is more important than some fight that only serves to tell us how bad-ass he is. Space had to be cut, and I don't mind that it was cut there.
To tell the truth, I'm not even a huge Draigo fan (despite my username). I don't mind that the beat the snot out of Mortarion. Beating up Daemons is what Grey Knights do. I like that he got stuck in the warp and wanders without end, completely alone. But having him turn up at the right time to help out his Grey Knight buddies seems a bit too deus ex machina for me. Having him stuck in the warp, looking for a way back home but never getting there would make for a cool story, but popping in and out seemingly at will... is just a bit meh. It doesn't ruin the character for me, I can still see it happening, it's just a bit meh.
The only thing that really gets my goat in this thread is people wailing that no one could ever beat a Primarch, so it's completely ridiculous that Draigo did it.
People don't wail that no one could ever beat a primarch, people point out that it should be an epic tale, not four lines. It's hard to imagine that Mortarion is important to the fluff when he gets so casually defeated and his only purpose is to give a convenient reason for Draigo to be Supreme Grand Master rather than just Grand Master.
Grey Knights are specialised in killing Daemons. If you have a chaos problem, the highest chance that it will be solved, would be by calling in the Grey knights. In order to defeat chaos as and when they encounter it, Grey Knights have to be powerful enough to kill not just some lowly Daemon, but also Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and yes, even Daemon Primarchs too.
Are we saying that a Daemon Primarch is so baddass that it simply cannot be defeated? Then any one Daemon Primarch can just lead his Daemon Host on a one way street straight to Terra and just be done with it. Although they are powerful, they can be killed, just like any other monstrous creature in 40k can. The good thing to killing a Daemon in fluff writing is that it just gets reborn in the warp, so you didn't do anything lasting damage that has to be retconned.
Imagine if the fluff reads that Draigo killed Eldrad, or someone who is not immortal. Then you got an even bigger problem because you can't use that guy anymore cos in the fluff, he has already been killed by Draigo.
In any case, Draigo is one of the most powerful grandmasters ever in the line of Greyknight grandmasters. And Grey knights are supposed to be one level higher than normal space marines. So, in the context, why is it so hard to imagine that he defeated Motarion, and he had help too. Magnus Calgar killed an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, which is equivalent to a Greater Daemon any day.
The Chaos gods got loads of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Just because the Daemon Primarchs are famous to the imperium doesn't necessarily mean that when they ascended to become princes, they were granted so much power that they are much more powerful than a Greater Daemon.
Nowhere in the chaos codex, or chaos daemon codex does it state that wihin the hierachy of chaos, the Daemon Primarchs stand much higher than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons. There is also no direct evidence in any of the codex that a Daemon Primarch is much more powerful than a named Greater Daemon like say Fate Weaver or such.
So, why is it so hard to believe that Draigo could have banished Motarion? If the most powerful of the Grey Knights cannot defeat a Daemon Primarch, then who can?
Eldenfirefly wrote:Grey Knights are specialised in killing Daemons. If you have a chaos problem, the highest chance that it will be solved, would be by calling in the Grey knights. In order to defeat chaos as and when they encounter it, Grey Knights have to be powerful enough to kill not just some lowly Daemon, but also Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and yes, even Daemon Primarchs too.
As a group, not one Leeroy Jenkins owning them. Angron was banished by the combined power of a hundred Grey Knights, and killed about eighty eight of them.
Are we saying that a Daemon Primarch is so baddass that it simply cannot be defeated? Then any one Daemon Primarch can just lead his Daemon Host on a one way street straight to Terra and just be done with it. Although they are powerful, they can be killed, just like any other monstrous creature in 40k can. The good thing to killing a Daemon in fluff writing is that it just gets reborn in the warp, so you didn't do anything lasting damage that has to be retconned.
Except that when you do it enough times, Chaos ceases to seem like a threat at all. Considering that it is the reason for the Imperium's state of disrepair and has two codices, this is a bad thing. As above, they can be killed. The difference is that Angron was treated as the epic battle it should be, whereas with Mortarion it was just a case of "If Draigo beats this guy, it instantly establishes how awesome he is and I don't need to waste time on silly things like detail and characterisation."
Imagine if the fluff reads that Draigo killed Eldrad, or someone who is not immortal. Then you got an even bigger problem because you can't use that guy anymore cos in the fluff, he has already been killed by Draigo.
Eldrad's already dead. And he's still available for use, because the battle can just be before he dies.
In any case, Draigo is one of the most powerful grandmasters ever in the line of Greyknight grandmasters. And Grey knights are supposed to be one level higher than normal space marines. So, in the context, why is it so hard to imagine that he defeated Motarion, and he had help too. Magnus Calgar killed an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, which is equivalent to a Greater Daemon any day.
Because Mortarion is the one of the toughest primarchs, dedicated to the god that grants unnatural resilience to its followers. And he didn't have help. The fluff states he was alone and unaided. It's pretty much the only detail it gives. It's possible to imagine the defeat, it's just unlikely, and it should have been given the space it deserved. A lone Grey Knight beating a daemon primarch without dying where previously it took one hundred with most of them dead at the end should have been pretty momentous.
The Chaos gods got loads of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Just because the Daemon Primarchs are famous to the imperium doesn't necessarily mean that when they ascended to become princes, they were granted so much power that they are much more powerful than a Greater Daemon.
Each and every primarch apart from Alpharius got their own planet in the Eye of Terror which they shaped to their own whims. Slightly better than the average GD. Angron had a bodyguard of a dozen bloodthirsters. Lorgar beat Khorne's strongest (or one of his strongest) Bloodthirsters while still not blessed by Chaos. So yeah, they're more powerful than Greater Daemons.
Nowhere in the chaos codex, or chaos daemon codex does it state that wihin the hierachy of chaos, the Daemon Primarchs stand much higher than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons. There is also no direct evidence in any of the codex that a Daemon Primarch is much more powerful than a named Greater Daemon like say Fate Weaver or such.
That's because the primarchs enter the fluff so rarely. If you'll permit me to use points as a comparison, Fateweaver costs 333, Angron costs 750. Logically, Angron is more powerful.
So, why is it so hard to believe that Draigo could have banished Motarion? If the most powerful of the Grey Knights cannot defeat a Daemon Primarch, then who can?
The most powerful Grey Knight, as part of a group of Grey Knights, in a epic battle.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:@eldenfirefly: Eldrad is dead. Killed by Chaos.
I thought the last bit of fluff was that there was some indication that Eldrad was only mostly dead. Glowing soulstones or somesuch.
I don't think the issue is that people think a Daemon Primarch can't be defeated. It's that any battle that involves them should be a truely epic thing. The only canon (ish) facts I know about battles involving a Daemon Primarch are Magnus at the Fang and Angron at Armageddon (who names these places?). Angron chowed through nearly an entire company of Grey Knights, plus who knows how many Space Wolves and guardsmen. Magnus punched his way through most of the Space Wolves dreads, a chooser of the slain, a wolf lord, and the great wolf. And even then he basically ended up losing due to bad writing (lots of sections where he is 'taken aback by the fury of <NAMED CHARACTER X>'s assault' and just stands there and gets punched in the face, or eats plasma cannon shots for no good reason.
To sum up a battle against a Daemon Primarch with 'some GK attacked him, the Grand Master was killed, but his buddy took down Mortarion and then indulged his artistic side' is garbage.
To put it another way, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." Now use your imagination.
Glowing Soulstones can be all too easily nommed by chaos beasties though, unless the Eldar can recover them. Obscene sweetmeats
I would ahve had no issue with a bunch of GK getting Mortarion down while draigo hacked his head off/ran him through..
Tattooing the heart of something WAY bigger than you that isn't standing still and letting you do it belongs in anime, not 40K
I think the gist was that Eldrad got in over his head when he attempted to crump whatever it was that was posessing the Blackstone fortress (hint: She was thirsty). He ended up as missing at the end of the campaign, but some soulstones back on the craftworld that were linked to him or something still had some sparks of light still in them, so it's an indication that he might not actually be dead.
Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't. Grey knights usually don't go into any mission alone, unless it was a special case like his curse thingy. We know his previous grandmaster got killed by Motarion. And he most likely wasn't alone either. Its quite possible to imagine that there was a huge epic fight involving many grey knights, and death guard on both sides before the grand master was killed and after that, Draigo avenged him.
Besides, looking at how he is able to literally survive for eons in the realm of chaos, killing any daemon that got near to him, banishing a primarch would seem possible, for the likes of Draigo.
I find Matt Ward's fluff entertaining to read. And quite memerable too. I have read lots of codexes and actually, many of the other exploits in the other codexes are more forgettable even though they could be entire pages long. But with one short paragraph on this, it not only makes an impression, but so many of us remember this and see, there is even a thread in this forum arguing about how this is possible.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't.
Matt Ward wrote:Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't.
Matt Ward wrote:Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't.
Matt Ward wrote:Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.
If I'm cooking dinner alone and unaided, does that mean there is no one else in the house?
That sentence doesn't say anything about the presence of other grey knights on the battlefield.
No it means you cooked alone and unaided. Seriously, if "alone and unaided" doesn't mean "alone and unaided" I don't know how else you would indicate that he is alone and not being aided.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No it means you cooked alone and unaided. Seriously, if "alone and unaided" doesn't mean "alone and unaided" I don't know how else you would indicate that he is alone and not being aided.
Right, but in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean Draigo and Geronitan were there alone. It doesn't eliminate there being, say, a bodyguard of Paladins who also lent a hand during the combat. All it says is at the particular moment that Draigo went nuts, there was no one helping him. It doesn't mean there was no-one else there, and it doesn't mean that no aid was given.
To bring it back to the kitchen analogy: I might be cooking alone and unaided, but someone else bought the ingredients for me, and someone else prepared the desert for me. Neither of which changes the fact that at that moment, I'm the only one doing any cooking.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No it means you cooked alone and unaided. Seriously, if "alone and unaided" doesn't mean "alone and unaided" I don't know how else you would indicate that he is alone and not being aided.
Right, but in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean Draigo and Geronitan were there alone. It doesn't eliminate there being, say, a bodyguard of Paladins who also lent a hand during the combat. All it says is at the particular moment that Draigo went nuts, there was no one helping him. It doesn't mean there was no-one else there, and it doesn't mean that no aid was given.
To bring it back to the kitchen analogy: I might be cooking alone and unaided, but someone else bought the ingredients for me, and someone else prepared the desert for me. Neither of which changes the fact that at that moment, I'm the only one doing any cooking.
alone-definition 1: separated, apart or isolated from others
Those bodyguards of paladins couldn't have been there, because he was ALONE. Meaning apart from others. And those paladins would be OTHERS. Does this make sense to you?
Draigo wrote:I never thought this thread would go almost as long as the gk hate thread. Color me impressed.
Threads can go on pretty long when people refuse to accept basic principles such as 'logic'. Like Kaldor, who doesn't know English but is convinced he does.
Draigo wrote:I never thought this thread would go almost as long as the gk hate thread. Color me impressed.
Threads can go on pretty long when people refuse to accept basic principles such as 'logic'. Like Kaldor, who doesn't know English but is convinced he does.
I JUST started listening. He acts like HE invented the defenition of an English-language word. ALONE AND UNAIDED MEANS NOONE HELPED YOU, AND YOU ARE ALL ALONE.
Kaldor wrote:I agree, but I don't think it could have been done without turning the book into Codex: Kaldor Draigo. He's a tough nut, as established by the bitch-slapping, but what makes him interesting is the ultimate failure of his actions, being trapped in the Warp and all. Like a lone saint wandering the streets of hell. In order of things that needed to be fleshed out, that is more important than some fight that only serves to tell us how bad-ass he is. Space had to be cut, and I don't mind that it was cut there.
Oh so we are back to claiming Draigo is a tragic Sisyphean hero then? Delightful.
See, that claim just doesn't hold up, IMO. To be a Sisyphean (Man that is a cool word) hero, a sense of tragedy would have to be conveyed in the writing, and I honestly don't see it. We get two pages of talking about Draigo crushing every obstacle put in his path, then like two lines saying that "Oh but uh I guess he hasn't permanently destroyed Chaos". It is a clumsy attempt at painting Draigo in a tragic light. And is also completely devalued immediately afterwards by emphasizing that he will apparently return.
What is so tragic about a character who is completely unstoppable, a character outright stated to be immune to the will of the Chaos Gods? All sending him to the Warp did was make it easier to get to the Daemons he fights, now he curbstomps Daemons 24/7. Seriously, imagine how burning down the Garden of Nurgle set back forays into realspace. Ditto crushing the Inevitable City.
To tell the truth, I'm not even a huge Draigo fan (despite my username). I don't mind that the beat the snot out of Mortarion. Beating up Daemons is what Grey Knights do. I like that he got stuck in the warp and wanders without end, completely alone. But having him turn up at the right time to help out his Grey Knight buddies seems a bit too deus ex machina for me. Having him stuck in the warp, looking for a way back home but never getting there would make for a cool story, but popping in and out seemingly at will... is just a bit meh. It doesn't ruin the character for me, I can still see it happening, it's just a bit meh.
It is disingenuous to imply a Daemon Primarch and random Greater Daemon number 34 have the same literary signifigance.
Not sure what the rest of this snippet of your post has to do with the topic though. Though I would agree that Draigo's role in any campaign would effectively be that of a Deus Ex Machina.
The only thing that really gets my goat in this thread is people wailing that no one could ever beat a Primarch, so it's completely ridiculous that Draigo did it.
Can you name any other character (Who is not a Primarch) to have bested a Primarch mono el mono? All that comes to mind are Luther and that Imperial Governor, both of whom were blessed by the Chaos Gods for the sole purpose of pwning Primarchs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:Grey Knights are specialised in killing Daemons. If you have a chaos problem, the highest chance that it will be solved, would be by calling in the Grey knights. In order to defeat chaos as and when they encounter it, Grey Knights have to be powerful enough to kill not just some lowly Daemon, but also Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and yes, even Daemon Primarchs too.
Which is why Angron was beaten by a single Grey Knight. Oh wait, silly me, it was dozens of Grey Knights combining their power.
Are we saying that a Daemon Primarch is so baddass that it simply cannot be defeated? Then any one Daemon Primarch can just lead his Daemon Host on a one way street straight to Terra and just be done with it. Although they are powerful, they can be killed, just like any other monstrous creature in 40k can. The good thing to killing a Daemon in fluff writing is that it just gets reborn in the warp, so you didn't do anything lasting damage that has to be retconned.
The entire Grey Knights codex devalued Chaos's credibility as a threat, hell, Draigo did it single-handedly. Angron was bested in an epic battle with a hundred Grey Knights on the field. Mortarion was pushed over and pwned by one, without any sense of effort conveyed. Daemon Primarchs aren't completely inassailable, but they shouldn't be so casually Worfed like Mortarion was.
Imagine if the fluff reads that Draigo killed Eldrad, or someone who is not immortal. Then you got an even bigger problem because you can't use that guy anymore cos in the fluff, he has already been killed by Draigo.
Eldrad is dead. Killed by Chaos. Lol. Whoa.
Also your point has no value because no one said Mortarion shouldn't be beatable, the issue is how he was beaten. Not to mention, a character can lose to show the credibility of a character without dying. Belial was nearly torn in half by Ghazghkuull, but is still alive, for example. Calgar was rightly fethed the hell up by the Swarmlord, but still leads his chapter in battle.
In any case, Draigo is one of the most powerful grandmasters ever in the line of Greyknight grandmasters. And Grey knights are supposed to be one level higher than normal space marines. So, in the context, why is it so hard to imagine that he defeated Motarion, and he had help too. Magnus Calgar killed an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, which is equivalent to a Greater Daemon any day.
No. A normal Primarch is stronger than both.
The Chaos gods got loads of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Just because the Daemon Primarchs are famous to the imperium doesn't necessarily mean that when they ascended to become princes, they were granted so much power that they are much more powerful than a Greater Daemon.
Lorgar, the weakest Primarch at the time, without any Chaos nonsense backing him, beat An'ggrath the Unbound in single combat. Aka the strongest or one of the strongest Greater Daemons. Oh, he then went on to get the living gak beaten out of him by Corax, a Primarch.
Primarchs are stronger.
Nowhere in the chaos codex, or chaos daemon codex does it state that wihin the hierachy of chaos, the Daemon Primarchs stand much higher than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons. There is also no direct evidence in any of the codex that a Daemon Primarch is much more powerful than a named Greater Daemon like say Fate Weaver or such.
Let's see what Fateweaver himself has to say on the subject, shall we?
"Both wizened heads bobbed in acknowledgement. ‘If you could
banish the Unbound,’ the first said, ‘you could easily banish me,
as well.’
‘Or perhaps I am more than I appear to be,’ the second hissed.
‘Perhaps you are weaker now and you would fall before my sorcery.’"
Depending on which head is lying, either Lorgar weakened as he is would still beat Fateweaver, or Fateweaver only has a chance due to An'ggrath weakening Lorgar.
So, why is it so hard to believe that Draigo could have banished Motarion? If the most powerful of the Grey Knights cannot defeat a Daemon Primarch, then who can?
It is the way it was done, not that it was done.
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Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't. Grey knights usually don't go into any mission alone, unless it was a special case like his curse thingy. We know his previous grandmaster got killed by Motarion. And he most likely wasn't alone either. Its quite possible to imagine that there was a huge epic fight involving many grey knights, and death guard on both sides before the grand master was killed and after that, Draigo avenged him.
Alone and unaided, Draigo beat him.
Besides, looking at how he is able to literally survive for eons in the realm of chaos, killing any daemon that got near to him, banishing a primarch would seem possible, for the likes of Draigo.
I agree that crushing a Primarch in single combat is not Draigo's most impressive feat. That is a problem.
"Draigo did much more ridiculous gak later" is not an excuse for what came before, lol.
I find Matt Ward's fluff entertaining to read. And quite memerable too. I have read lots of codexes and actually, many of the other exploits in the other codexes are more forgettable even though they could be entire pages long. But with one short paragraph on this, it not only makes an impression, but so many of us remember this and see, there is even a thread in this forum arguing about how this is possible.
Yeah I guess it is memorable in the same way CS Goto is.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No it means you cooked alone and unaided. Seriously, if "alone and unaided" doesn't mean "alone and unaided" I don't know how else you would indicate that he is alone and not being aided.
Right, but in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean Draigo and Geronitan were there alone. It doesn't eliminate there being, say, a bodyguard of Paladins who also lent a hand during the combat. All it says is at the particular moment that Draigo went nuts, there was no one helping him. It doesn't mean there was no-one else there, and it doesn't mean that no aid was given.
To bring it back to the kitchen analogy: I might be cooking alone and unaided, but someone else bought the ingredients for me, and someone else prepared the desert for me. Neither of which changes the fact that at that moment, I'm the only one doing any cooking.
Ah. So your point is that while there were other Grey Knights there, they were too incompetent or lazy to fight either the bodyguard or Mortarion, instead beciding to stand around and discuss how awesome Draigo is. The quote, if you'd care to read it, says that Draigo, alone and unaided, barrels through the bodyguard and carves a name into Mortarion's heart. The fact that the entire battle is given in a single sentence leaves very little room to add in aid of any kind.
@ Void Dragon, what's his name the Bloodthirster beat Sanguinius and broke his back. Sanguinius did the same to him later when he actually knew what he was dealing with.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:No it means you cooked alone and unaided. Seriously, if "alone and unaided" doesn't mean "alone and unaided" I don't know how else you would indicate that he is alone and not being aided.
Right, but in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean Draigo and Geronitan were there alone. It doesn't eliminate there being, say, a bodyguard of Paladins who also lent a hand during the combat. All it says is at the particular moment that Draigo went nuts, there was no one helping him. It doesn't mean there was no-one else there, and it doesn't mean that no aid was given.
To bring it back to the kitchen analogy: I might be cooking alone and unaided, but someone else bought the ingredients for me, and someone else prepared the desert for me. Neither of which changes the fact that at that moment, I'm the only one doing any cooking.
Now maybe I am weak on the English language but Im fairly certain that (Using your kitchen analogy) that the second someone brings you ingredients you are no longer alone and if someone prepares desert you have been aided so you would be cooking, with company and aid.
If he is in a room with several Grey Knights then Draigo isnt alone and if even one Grey Knight uses his weapon even once (even if it was a miss) he has been aided. (Doesnt matter if the aid is incompetant). Now if there was a bodyguard and they all died and Geronitan was the last one to die and then Draigo won the battle, that would be okay. The problem is that the wording makes it sound like Draigo walked in at destroyed some of the most powerful warriors there are without even breaking a sweat when they were at their peaks. Most people just want a simple statment that would say that after Geronitan died, Draigo led a force to avenge him and did just that... Draigo emerged as the only survivor
BOOM, everyone is happy. Draigo seems like a badass, people can use their immagination as people ask "how did he do that? Thats awsome, it must have been an epic battle...." and Mortarion seems powerful because those were stacked odds and he did pretty well considering.
Now maybe Im miss understanding everyone but the impression I got is that people just want even another 1 or 2 sentinces so that we can develop a better picture because with the limited knowledge we have, it just seems to implausable and when we finally can picture it, we realize that there is information that is vitally important missing which is the problem.
Again I prefer to immagine that this is just the Chaos Gods fething with Draigo and that it is all in his dreams. This is why he cant ever truelly win against Chaos or make difference, because he lost a long time ago.
Do you know how much fluff Draigo got? A page and a half of 9 font text. What did Ward do? create a bunch of awesome things, for Draigo to do, then explain only a few with more than a few sentences.
Draigo killing a Daemon Primarch should have been explained more. Ward should have elaborated on this monumentous feat.
It could've added so much to Draigo's character, but since Draigo acts more like a walking cliche (no emotions, just SO HARDCORE) than an actual person, I doubt much more could've been done.
Durza wrote:@ Void Dragon, what's his name the Bloodthirster beat Sanguinius and broke his back. Sanguinius did the same to him later when he actually knew what he was dealing with.
Yeah, Ka'Bhanda, aka the strongest Bloodthirster (He and An'ggrath are the candidates for that title currently).
Sanguinius actually was shown to have the advantage in the stand-up melee with Ka'Bhanda in the first fight, which I should mentioned occurred after months of constant battle for Sanguinius and his Legion.
When a somewhat fresher Sanguinius fought Ka'Bhanda, he had much less trouble and then continued fighting.
Also at some point, according to Aurelian, he kills a Daemon Prince Argel Tal. Yeah.
Ronin-Sage wrote:To be fair/honest, where is everyone getting the 'alone' text from?
Alone text?
"Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart."
I guess what I meant was the premise of him being alone in the battle.
Ronin-Sage wrote:To be fair/honest, where is everyone getting the 'alone' text from?
Alone text?
"Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart."
I guess what I meant was the premise of him being alone in the battle.
The text from the codex(unless I'm missing something) doesn't provide enough detail on whether or not either Draigo or Mortarion were alone(as in, engaged in a duel).
Ronin-Sage wrote:The text from the codex(unless I'm missing something) doesn't provide enough detail on whether or not either Draigo or Mortarion were alone(as in, engaged in a duel).
I'm pretty sure, Draigo is said to be alone and unaided, while he smashes past Mortarians BODYGUARDS before doing the whole name-heart-incident.
Well, paraphrasing from the codex, it says he became the supreme grand master following the previous one's death at Mortarion's hands, and his first act was to carve his name upon his [Mortarion's] heart.
While I definitely would argue that Draigo wouldn't prevail against Mortarion alone, we can't even draw enough information from the text to determine if the previous chapter lord's death and Draigo engaging Mortarion even occurred in the same 'scene', let alone the conditions of the fight.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Well, paraphrasing from the codex, it says he became the supreme grand master following the previous one's death at Mortarion's hands, and his first act was to carve his name upon his [Mortarion's] heart.
While I definitely would argue that Draigo wouldn't prevail against Mortarion alone, we can't even draw enough information from the text to determine if the previous chapter lord's death and Draigo engaging Mortarion even occurred in the same 'scene', let alone the conditions of the fight.
Ronin-Sage wrote:To be fair/honest, where is everyone getting the 'alone' text from?
Codex: Grey Knights, Page 15 wrote:901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldro Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more
That's where we're getting it from, the Codex itself. So, yes. . . according to Matt Ward, Draigo beat down not only Mortarion but also his bodyguards, however many there were,single-handedly. And then carved Geronitan's name on Mortarion's heart, of all things.
Ronin-Sage wrote:To be fair/honest, where is everyone getting the 'alone' text from?
Codex: Grey Knights, Page 15 wrote:901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldro Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more
That's where we're getting it from, the Codex itself. So, yes. . . according to Matt Ward, Draigo beat down not only Mortarion but also his bodyguards, however many there were,single-handedly. And then carved Geronitan's name on Mortarion's heart, of all things.
Galdos wrote:Now maybe I am weak on the English language but Im fairly certain that (Using your kitchen analogy) that the second someone brings you ingredients you are no longer alone and if someone prepares desert you have been aided so you would be cooking, with company and aid.
No, thats not exactly how english works. If I'm in a car with four other people, and I do all the driving, I can truthfully say "I alone did all the driving". I wasn't 'alone' but I 'alone' did it. If you are the only person participating in an activity, then you are doing it alone, regardless of how many people are with you.
I mean, the quote itself refers to a battle, and the din of the battlefield. There was obviously more people there than just the five of them.
Galdos wrote:Now maybe I am weak on the English language but Im fairly certain that (Using your kitchen analogy) that the second someone brings you ingredients you are no longer alone and if someone prepares desert you have been aided so you would be cooking, with company and aid.
No, thats not exactly how english works. If I'm in a car with four other people, and I do all the driving, I can truthfully say "I alone did all the driving". I wasn't 'alone' but I 'alone' did it. If you are the only person participating in an activity, then you are doing it alone, regardless of how many people are with you.
I mean, the quote itself refers to a battle, and the din of the battlefield. There was obviously more people there than just the five of them.
Even so, that doesn't matter, as they did not help.
Nevermind all this.... Draigo beating Mortarion in combat is like Abaddon beating Emperor in combat. Draigo and Mortarion level are as different as skyscraper and 2 store house. There was no chance for Draigo to beat him and his bodyguards alone ( the text does say "single handily" ). Especially when Imperium lost almost entire company of Grey Knights fighting Angron who is also Daemon Primarch. That doesn't make sense, either Draigo is that much powerful or Mortarion is as weak as Gretchin.
1. Some people are unable to accept that Draigo fighting ol' Mort the Daemon Primarch SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN 4 F*****G LINES LONG! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLESHED OUT!
2. In the Miniscule amount of detail it clearly states that Draigo Battered past ol' Morts BODYGUARD ALONE
Meaning Draigo = Alone, Mort = Bodyguard = NOT ALONE
We simply cannot stoop to Matt Ward's level of idiocy. THE MAN WRITES LIKE A 2 year old with absolutly no comprehension of the gulf between the pairs abilities
Galdos wrote:Now maybe I am weak on the English language but Im fairly certain that (Using your kitchen analogy) that the second someone brings you ingredients you are no longer alone and if someone prepares desert you have been aided so you would be cooking, with company and aid.
No, thats not exactly how english works. If I'm in a car with four other people, and I do all the driving, I can truthfully say "I alone did all the driving". I wasn't 'alone' but I 'alone' did it. If you are the only person participating in an activity, then you are doing it alone, regardless of how many people are with you.
I mean, the quote itself refers to a battle, and the din of the battlefield. There was obviously more people there than just the five of them.
That's not how English works either. If you are alone, driving the car, then you are alone. If you alone are driving the car, then there could be people there to. Draigo's entry says that he, alone and unaided, smashed through Mortarion's bodyguard. He did it alone, he was the only one who fought. The fact that there could have been other people there is irrelevant, because they weren't doing anything.
Galdos wrote:Now maybe I am weak on the English language but Im fairly certain that (Using your kitchen analogy) that the second someone brings you ingredients you are no longer alone and if someone prepares desert you have been aided so you would be cooking, with company and aid.
No, thats not exactly how english works. If I'm in a car with four other people, and I do all the driving, I can truthfully say "I alone did all the driving". I wasn't 'alone' but I 'alone' did it. If you are the only person participating in an activity, then you are doing it alone, regardless of how many people are with you.
I mean, the quote itself refers to a battle, and the din of the battlefield. There was obviously more people there than just the five of them.
That's not how English works either. If you are alone, driving the car, then you are alone. If you alone are driving the car, then there could be people there to. Draigo's entry says that he, alone and unaided, smashed through Mortarion's bodyguard. He did it alone, he was the only one who fought. The fact that there could have been other people there is irrelevant, because they weren't doing anything.
Well, they weren't doing anything relevant in this particular fight. They were most likely beating the snot out of other Death Guard nearby or something.
The Crusader wrote:I think what we have established here is:
1. Some people are unable to accept that Draigo fighting ol' Mort the Daemon Primarch SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN 4 F*****G LINES LONG! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLESHED OUT!
2. In the Miniscule amount of detail it clearly states that Draigo Battered past ol' Morts BODYGUARD ALONE
Meaning Draigo = Alone, Mort = Bodyguard = NOT ALONE
We simply cannot stoop to Matt Ward's level of idiocy. THE MAN WRITES LIKE A 2 year old with absolutly no comprehension of the gulf between the pairs abilities
THANK YOU, on behalf of anyone who understands how language (alone) works and all ward Hater such as me!
The Crusader wrote:I think what we have established here is:
1. Some people are unable to accept that Draigo fighting ol' Mort the Daemon Primarch SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN 4 F*****G LINES LONG! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLESHED OUT!
2. In the Miniscule amount of detail it clearly states that Draigo Battered past ol' Morts BODYGUARD ALONE
Meaning Draigo = Alone, Mort = Bodyguard = NOT ALONE
We simply cannot stoop to Matt Ward's level of idiocy. THE MAN WRITES LIKE A 2 year old with absolutly no comprehension of the gulf between the pairs abilities
The Crusader wrote:I think what we have established here is:
1. Some people are unable to accept that Draigo fighting ol' Mort the Daemon Primarch SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN 4 F*****G LINES LONG! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLESHED OUT!
2. In the Miniscule amount of detail it clearly states that Draigo Battered past ol' Morts BODYGUARD ALONE
Meaning Draigo = Alone, Mort = Bodyguard = NOT ALONE
We simply cannot stoop to Matt Ward's level of idiocy. THE MAN WRITES LIKE A 2 year old with absolutly no comprehension of the gulf between the pairs abilities
Yep. It's kinda sad that we took 11 pages to establish this, and even then there will still be people like Kaldor who, perhaps due to their inability to read, will disagree with you.
The Crusader wrote:I think what we have established here is:
1. Some people are unable to accept that Draigo fighting ol' Mort the Daemon Primarch SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN 4 F*****G LINES LONG! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLESHED OUT!
2. In the Miniscule amount of detail it clearly states that Draigo Battered past ol' Morts BODYGUARD ALONE
Meaning Draigo = Alone, Mort = Bodyguard = NOT ALONE
We simply cannot stoop to Matt Ward's level of idiocy. THE MAN WRITES LIKE A 2 year old with absolutly no comprehension of the gulf between the pairs abilities
Yep. It's kinda sad that we took 11 pages to establish this, and even then there will still be people like Kaldor who, perhaps due to their inability to read, will disagree with you.
Sad, but true.. (YOUR ATTEMPT AT REWRITING THE DEFINITIONS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS FAILED, KALDOR)
Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.
Huzzah! I came across a good synopsis. Note that this is not a personal attack, merely an observations on people and Matt Ward's innate inability to write semi-reasonable fluff
TheRobotLol wrote:Even so, that doesn't matter, as they did not help.
So, they might aswell of not been there.
Correct. But, it's a battlefield. We can't know what has happened previously, or what everyone else is doing at the time. It is totally within the realms of possibility that other people on the battlefield affected the outcome of the battle.
Now, before you say "BUT HE WAS UNAIDED" let me state that there has to be a time limit on the 'unaided' part. Whoever loaded Draigo's stormbolter for him aided him. Whoever piloted the ship that brought him to the battlefield aided him. Whoever gave him training aided him. Whoever prepared his last meal aided him. So we have to decide what, exactly, constitutes 'aid' in this context.
Am I wrong in considering that 'unaided' means that from the time he attacked the Deathshroud to the time he struck down Mortarion, he was fighting alone? Thats all that I consider 'unaided' to mean. I consider any and all other battlefield effects to potentially apply, from previous wounds to weakening of daemonic portals to distractions to other impending threats.
TheRobotLol wrote:Sad, but true.. (YOUR ATTEMPT AT REWRITING THE DEFINITIONS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS FAILED, KALDOR)
Look, this is getting quite off-topic, but you're wrong. Reading comprehension fail, on your part.
'alone' can mean many things, depending on the precise structure and context of the sentence. It can mean you are the only person there. It can mean you are the only type of a person there. It can mean you are undertaking an activity by yourself, regardless of the presence of other people. It can mean you are taking sole responsibility for something, despite the presence of other people at the time. Try this for an exercise. I'll write some sentences, and you can tell me what you think the word 'alone' means in that context.
The party was very noisy and everyone wanted to help, but alone and unaided, I finished the jigsaw puzzle
I was alone, and I did a jigsaw puzzle.
The three of us alone did the jigsaw puzzle.
I alone take responsibility for the jigsaw puzzle being completed.
Am I alone in hating thinking 'jigsaw' sounds really wierd now?
Brother Coa wrote:Nevermind all this....
Draigo beating Mortarion in combat is like Abaddon beating Emperor in combat.
Draigo and Mortarion level are as different as skyscraper and 2 store house. There was no chance for Draigo to beat him and his bodyguards alone ( the text does say "single handily" ). Especially when Imperium lost almost entire company of Grey Knights fighting Angron who is also Daemon Primarch.
That doesn't make sense, either Draigo is that much powerful or Mortarion is as weak as Gretchin.
And THIS is the only reason I entered this thread in the first place. The wailing that Draigo could never have beaten a Daemon primarch.
TheRobotLol wrote:Even so, that doesn't matter, as they did not help.
So, they might aswell of not been there.
Correct. But, it's a battlefield. We can't know what has happened previously, or what everyone else is doing at the time. It is totally within the realms of possibility that other people on the battlefield affected the outcome of the battle.
Now, before you say "BUT HE WAS UNAIDED" let me state that there has to be a time limit on the 'unaided' part. Whoever loaded Draigo's stormbolter for him aided him. Whoever piloted the ship that brought him to the battlefield aided him. Whoever gave him training aided him. Whoever prepared his last meal aided him. So we have to decide what, exactly, constitutes 'aid' in this context.
Am I wrong in considering that 'unaided' means that from the time he attacked the Deathshroud to the time he struck down Mortarion, he was fighting alone? Thats all that I consider 'unaided' to mean. I consider any and all other battlefield effects to potentially apply, from previous wounds to weakening of daemonic portals to distractions to other impending threats.
TheRobotLol wrote:Sad, but true.. (YOUR ATTEMPT AT REWRITING THE DEFINITIONS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS FAILED, KALDOR)
Look, this is getting quite off-topic, but you're wrong. Reading comprehension fail, on your part.
'alone' can mean many things, depending on the precise structure and context of the sentence. It can mean you are the only person there. It can mean you are the only type of a person there. It can mean you are undertaking an activity by yourself, regardless of the presence of other people. It can mean you are taking sole responsibility for something, despite the presence of other people at the time. Try this for an exercise. I'll write some sentences, and you can tell me what you think the word 'alone' means in that context.
The party was very noisy and everyone wanted to help, but alone and unaided, I finished the jigsaw puzzle
I was alone, and I did a jigsaw puzzle.
The three of us alone did the jigsaw puzzle.
I alone take responsibility for the jigsaw puzzle being completed.
Am I alone in hating thinking 'jigsaw' sounds really wierd now?
Brother Coa wrote:Nevermind all this....
Draigo beating Mortarion in combat is like Abaddon beating Emperor in combat.
Draigo and Mortarion level are as different as skyscraper and 2 store house. There was no chance for Draigo to beat him and his bodyguards alone ( the text does say "single handily" ). Especially when Imperium lost almost entire company of Grey Knights fighting Angron who is also Daemon Primarch.
That doesn't make sense, either Draigo is that much powerful or Mortarion is as weak as Gretchin.
And THIS is the only reason I entered this thread in the first place. The wailing that Draigo could never have beaten a Daemon primarch.
Make up your mind mind. Either Draigo is awesome enough to beat a Daemon-Primarch on his own or not.
While I agree there is a large power gap between Draigo and Mortarion, I don't put it past Draigo to completely loose his fudge after seeing his mentor killed.
The bodyguard? I can see that. Mortarion himself? While not completely unfeasible, I really need to know more about the situation than the FOUR @*%&#^*&@ DAMN LINES WARD #%*(&#ING WROTE.
This is like trying to decipher exactly what Jesus did if everything after his Resurrection was written in only four lines in the same style that Ward writes. "Alone and unaided, Jesus rose from the dead. He then talked to some women, then they went and told his disciples, who didn't believe them, but then Jesus went around revealing himself to them. Then Jesus told them all to spread the word of God. Then Jesus left and said he'd come back pretty much whenever."
See? It's vague, and while technically it does cover what happened it isn't anywhere near as awesome as what actually happened, assuming you actually believe Jesus did what the bible says, otherwise, it's still written better than Ward's fluff for Draigo.
Eh some of those old stories are light on details but then you get tolkien who describes trees to you for chapters. :/ Eh I guess one thing I've always wondered is why many of the huge characters have these crazy codex entries but rarey seem to be seen in some of the novels.
In the sw ragnar, mephiston is the ba, and no one really in the gk one. It's be kinda cool if you got to read more of these guys exploits rather then random sm a or b. Kinda like the newer fantasy stuff getting to read about nagash, sigmar, etc.
I honestly cannot believe that this thread is still going.
I thought we had all reached the conclusion that yes, it did make sense, however, required a rather stupid amount of 'insight' and us drawing our own conclusions and therefore, actually did deserve a full-blown page(s) of text?
Seriously guys, there can't be much more to argue about.
TheRobotLol wrote:Even so, that doesn't matter, as they did not help.
So, they might aswell of not been there.
Correct. But, it's a battlefield. We can't know what has happened previously, or what everyone else is doing at the time. It is totally within the realms of possibility that other people on the battlefield affected the outcome of the battle.
Now, before you say "BUT HE WAS UNAIDED" let me state that there has to be a time limit on the 'unaided' part. Whoever loaded Draigo's stormbolter for him aided him. Whoever piloted the ship that brought him to the battlefield aided him. Whoever gave him training aided him. Whoever prepared his last meal aided him. So we have to decide what, exactly, constitutes 'aid' in this context.
Am I wrong in considering that 'unaided' means that from the time he attacked the Deathshroud to the time he struck down Mortarion, he was fighting alone? Thats all that I consider 'unaided' to mean. I consider any and all other battlefield effects to potentially apply, from previous wounds to weakening of daemonic portals to distractions to other impending threats.
TheRobotLol wrote:Sad, but true.. (YOUR ATTEMPT AT REWRITING THE DEFINITIONS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS FAILED, KALDOR)
Look, this is getting quite off-topic, but you're wrong. Reading comprehension fail, on your part.
'alone' can mean many things, depending on the precise structure and context of the sentence. It can mean you are the only person there. It can mean you are the only type of a person there. It can mean you are undertaking an activity by yourself, regardless of the presence of other people. It can mean you are taking sole responsibility for something, despite the presence of other people at the time. Try this for an exercise. I'll write some sentences, and you can tell me what you think the word 'alone' means in that context.
The party was very noisy and everyone wanted to help, but alone and unaided, I finished the jigsaw puzzle
I was alone, and I did a jigsaw puzzle.
The three of us alone did the jigsaw puzzle.
I alone take responsibility for the jigsaw puzzle being completed.
Am I alone in hating thinking 'jigsaw' sounds really wierd now?
Brother Coa wrote:Nevermind all this....
Draigo beating Mortarion in combat is like Abaddon beating Emperor in combat.
Draigo and Mortarion level are as different as skyscraper and 2 store house. There was no chance for Draigo to beat him and his bodyguards alone ( the text does say "single handily" ). Especially when Imperium lost almost entire company of Grey Knights fighting Angron who is also Daemon Primarch.
That doesn't make sense, either Draigo is that much powerful or Mortarion is as weak as Gretchin.
And THIS is the only reason I entered this thread in the first place. The wailing that Draigo could never have beaten a Daemon primarch.
Yes but it said HE ALONE did it. Not, he alone, with an army, it says HE alone.
And I believe, the text means he alone and unaided beat mortarion, not the whole battle. just the lttle fight at the end where he smashes his bodyhuards and blablabla, that bits alone.
Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.
This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written
On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.
Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.
This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written
On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.
Don't forget the insight it gives into that era's views on female sexuality.
Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.
This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written
On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.
Don't forget the insight it gives into that era's views on female sexuality.
True, true, but that could be gleaned from a lot of the literature of the time.
If everyone's still raging about how Draigo shouldn't be able to defeat Mortarion, how about Hector Rex vs. An'ggrath? The greatest of Khorne's servants (as in, greater than Angron), banished by an inquisitor in single combat. Yet I don't see anyone rage about THAT.
Then again, it's not written by Ward, so it doesn't count, right?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If everyone's still raging about how Draigo shouldn't be able to defeat Mortarion, how about Hector Rex vs. An'ggrath? The greatest of Khorne's servants (as in, greater than Angron), banished by an inquisitor in single combat. Yet I don't see anyone rage about THAT.
Then again, it's not written by Ward, so it doesn't count, right?
It might help if you actually read people's specific complaints instead of jumping to conclusions.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If everyone's still raging about how Draigo shouldn't be able to defeat Mortarion, how about Hector Rex vs. An'ggrath? The greatest of Khorne's servants (as in, greater than Angron), banished by an inquisitor in single combat. Yet I don't see anyone rage about THAT.
Then again, it's not written by Ward, so it doesn't count, right?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If everyone's still raging about how Draigo shouldn't be able to defeat Mortarion, how about Hector Rex vs. An'ggrath? The greatest of Khorne's servants (as in, greater than Angron), banished by an inquisitor in single combat. Yet I don't see anyone rage about THAT.
Then again, it's not written by Ward, so it doesn't count, right?
The difference is, it's actually WRITTEN.
Wait...
Have we been arguing about something that hasn't actually been written for 10 pages? Oh the humanity!
Void__Dragon wrote:Guys, I don't agree with Kaldor either, but try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum, Kaldor has been largely polite this entire thread, despite not agreeing with us.
This. Unlike others in here, he hasn't stooped to impoliteness to try and make an opponent's argument seem beneath everyone's notice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:No, because both those stories were well written
On the contrary, Dracula is mediocre as a piece of writing. It's only really of note due to how it redefined and streamlined otherwise disparate myths concerning vampires, thus creating the monster we recognise as a vampire today.
But I digress.
Pretty subjective there..
I find it to be well written (as do many others) or it wouldn't have endured as a novel this long, and still be printed, but even a mediocre piece of writing (your opinion, not fact ) beats the tripe that keeps winding up in codex fluff/BL.
'
