Surtur wrote:Thunderhawks themselves are more durable and better armed than lightnings. Big guns don't mean as much when you have to fight little things buzzing around you. As soon as the SM begin boarding, the Navy is hosed.
A lot of arguments fixate on the numbers and don't factor logistics or tactics. You cannot surround 1 person with a billion and expect maximum fighting capabilities. The more guard you pack into one spot, the worse they would be able to fight.
If the guard and the SM were to fight it out, guard would route. Ravenguard would be destroying their artillery, Imperial Fists would have an unbreakable line, White Scars would be riding through taking out commanders, Ultramarines would be changing tactics continually throwing enemy commanders off, Iron Hands would have the field dominated in tank warfare, Salamanders would be putting the finest tech to it's best use clearing tanks and troops, Blood Angels would be in the thick of it ripping people apart, Dark Angels would be in several different forces of fast vehicles, troops and termies, and Space Wolves would be having a ball. And these are just the founding chapters. Not to mention all of the ways marines can engage an enemy, with bikes, drop pods and transports. For espionage they can employ scouts. Marines also have artillery to clear swaths of troops. Between their weaponry, tactics and stature, it's highly likely that the guard would mass panic and run.
-You seem to not realise that despite the thunderhawks being better armed than lightnings and such, one thunderhawk is still not going to survive a fight with the thousands or so lightnings they would be fighting, seeing as the guard have many more of them.
-Yes, surrounded by a billion people, a space marine would rack up a large body count because of maneuverability, but still, no matter how skilled he is, 1 billion guys has the power to crush him with body weight, let alone stabbing with bayonets or shooting with lasguns.
-Again, as skilled as space marines are, the guard will still wipe them. If you want to go on about logistics (bombing supply lines, etc.), the guard can also do that with their navy, destroying every space marine vessel, cutting off their supply lines.
The argument for "guard outnumber the space marines" will continue to be used because the space marines have nothing to counter that. 1,000,000,000,000,000 guardsmen will win against 1,000,000 space marines, hands down, every time. The only variable is how long the astartes can hold off and how many guard they can take down with them.
Nah, weight of numbers of means the Marines get hosed in a straight up fight. They'd need to find a way to sabotage/infiltrate the Navy and cripple it, then just let the IG starve. A billion men require three billion meals and 25 billion litres of water every day. Even a slight disruption to supply convoys is going to be disastrous to the IG.
But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.
However, any fighting in space is done by machines and ships, which puts the Navy and the Astartes on a roughly even footing. The Marines would need to find a way to take the Navy out; sabotaging port facilities, infiltrating boarding parties onto their ships, etc. In a straight up battle they'd only give as good as they got, and thats not good enough when the odds are stacked so heavily in their favour.
Again, Astartes aren't possibly going to do anything in the way of sabotage (especially since Astarte ships are pretty damn obvious in design) that is going to make a sizeable dent in the forces of the Imperial Navy.
Does anyone have any figures on the rostered strength of a sector Navy fleet?
Like the Imperial Guard, almost impossible to calculate with any degree of certainty. I believe BFG has an example of one in Battlefleet Gothic, but a battlefleet is only the fraction of the strength of a sector fleet.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.
Rather a moot point, since the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities and the posed hypothetical is Imperial Guard vs. Space marines. The Imperial Navy is as removed from the Imperial Guard as the Inquisition or Adeptus Mechanicus are from both the Space Marines and Imperial Guard. In this type of hypothetical if you don't impose the strict separations than it becomes justifiable to include almost anything in the Imperial arsenal.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
But how are they going to do that? The Imperial Navy would have more than enough strength to ensure a passable amount of supplies got through, as well as going on the offensive at the front.
Rather a moot point, since the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities and the posed hypothetical is Imperial Guard vs. Space marines. The Imperial Navy is as removed from the Imperial Guard as the Inquisition or Adeptus Mechanicus are from both the Space Marines and Imperial Guard. In this type of hypothetical if you don't impose the strict separations than it becomes justifiable to include almost anything in the Imperial arsenal.
I was only responding to the SM lovers point on the Imperial Navy. If the Imperial Guard have no fleet support however, this does give the Space Marines an advantage. Are we assuming the Imperial Navy has just disappeared?
Like the Imperial Guard, almost impossible to calculate with any degree of certainty. I believe BFG has an example of one in Battlefleet Gothic, but a battlefleet is only the fraction of the strength of a sector fleet.
The Battlefleet operating the cordon against the Nids of Leviathan was 72 ships. 1 SM ship was sufficient to ignore their blockade, run a team on the ground, stand off the fleet's retaliation (only a few ships were dispatched, because of the bigger concern of the Hive fleet), destroy those ships, and pick the team back up a day later, amidst the Nids planetfall.
Compare this to the boarding actions led by the Night Lords in Soulhunter, and technically on numbers alone, a single Chapter can handle a Battlefleet. The problem is delivery of those numbers.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yes. But we do not know that the difference in number is the factor here.
Umm, yes we do. The pre HH uM alone would lay waste to the whole of the current SM chapters. In the old days there were no limit and a strike force would have been a thousand marines.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
If 5 Marines veteran can take a Navy flagship (Soulhunter), then I doubt this. Hell, the Navy is probably the worst opponent to face off the SM.
You are failing to understand numbers. The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range. Sure if the SM could get close enough to board it would be bad, however , eh the lose is a single ship. Once they are omn the other ship they are going no where and one the SM ship that has the teleporter is down that tactic is done.
Kovnik Obama wrote: False.
No its not false, at any one time the SM always have loses, each chapter at any givin time is engaged in dozens of missions. They are are never at full str, never.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
There was no IoM beyond the solar system before the Legions. It's doubtful it was even more than an alliance between Terra and Mars. Didn't really count as an Imperium ''of Mankind'' if 99.99999999% of Mankind didn't answer to it.
Of coarse it did not exist. Both others civilizations did, without the SM's, if it was not for the warp storms and the uprising of the Iron man the IoM would not have existed either.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
They had and still have a carte blanche. That alone speaks volume. The Imperium recognize the necessity of leaving alone and giving sovereignty to the branch of its military that has the highest percentage of Chaos heresy. I think that's because they recognize how ridiculously important they are.
No that is simply the red tape and the fact of the IoM does not change, it is as it was laid down and is frankly a bureaucratic mess that has little to do with the "Might of the space marines". They are symbols of the Might of the IoM and the power of the God-emperor, but they do not and never have hold the IoM together.
Unit1126PLL wrote:teleport attacks, granted, for some reason the Guard don't use.
While the correct answer is probably "this would take away from the mystique of the flagship product", and it has never been specifically stated, I'd assume that since teleportation has been consistently described as incredibly unpleasant, even for Space Marines, normal humans can be pretty adversely affected by the transition and wouldn't emerge as instantly combat effective.
Drop pod attacks are replaced with Drop-Troop Regiment attacks.
Not really the same thing. They aren't dropping directly from orbit, but being delivered by dropships like the Valkyrie or larger craft. This is more equivalent to Marines deploying by Thunderhawk or Storm Raven/Eagle/Bird/whateverothermodelFWeventuallyreleases.
Umm, yes we do. The pre HH uM alone would lay waste to the whole of the current SM chapters. In the old days there were no limit and a strike force would have been a thousand marines.
And we know that Humanity couldn't keep a united front even with the pre-DAoT period technology. Obviously the threats haven't gone down from then. The Emperor deemed it necessary to unite Mankind through the Astartes, surely because he couldn't do it with the guard he already had at his disposition (which were better than current ones).
You are failing to understand numbers.
That is an hilarious sentence.
The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range.
They never provided us figures for such a large section of the fleets, so you have no way of knowing this. And since the Hammer of Rightfulness took 1000 years to be build up, I really doubt they are so common.
eh the lose is a single ship
can fold an entire force, if it's the flagship.
No its not false, at any one time the SM always have loses, each chapter at any givin time is engaged in dozens of missions. They are are never at full str, never.
Which is false, since it doesn't take in account the known non-Codex adherent chapters, and the multiple ones that are hinted at. Bottom line is we do not know the effectives of the SM as a whole.
The greatest alien threat to the Imperium in the last millenia was met by about 150-200 Navy ships. GW likes to throw words like ''innumerable'' and ''untold'', but when they actually get down to numbers and telling, you realise it's a lot less stupidly huge then initially thought (except for the Navy effectives and the range of Navy weapons).
You are aware Kovnik Obama that the Emperor only had proto marines at his disposal. So he created the space marines and expanded using only them for a bit. Then Lo and behold the marines ran out of man power and the Imperial Army stepped up and started conquering planets. Then the mahreens had a temper tantrum and tore the IoN apart.
Fast forward to current IoM and you look at the defenders of the IoM. Basic Humans make up 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%. There are about 1 million space marines. Now official fluff states a mahreen is equal to 10 humans so all the marines in the IoM has the fighting strength of 10 million guardsmen. The kicker... There are over a trillion guardsmen in the IoM. Which means that even if a Mahreenn was worth 1000 humans the mahreens will lose.
In short the Imperial Guard is mightier then the Space Marines
You are aware Kovnik Obama that the Emperor only had proto marines at his disposal.
To conquer Terra, yes. Once he sailed into space, he had the Legions ready. He awarded them directly to the Primarch he found.
So he created the space marines and expanded using only them for a bit. Then Lo and behold the marines ran out of man power and the Imperial Army stepped up and started conquering planets. Then the mahreens had a temper tantrum and tore the IoN apart.
That's complete gak. The Imperium was founded through the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was an Astartes event. The only major expansion of Imperial space done on the back of the IG is the Macharian Crusade, and that pales in comparison to the Great Crusade.
Now official fluff states a mahreen is equal to 10 humans
That's as official as any other figure given. The greatest strategos of the Imperium evaluates that 100 marines are sufficient to take and hold a world. I doubt that 10 000 guardsmen could do the same. Hell I doubt 10 000 guardsmen could even take and hold Montreal.
Which means that even if a Mahreenn was worth 1000 humans the mahreens will lose.
Notice that I didn't argue this, because the specifics of the scenario is ridiculously skewed against Marines. I'm arguing against the idea that Marines aren't necessary for the continued existence of the Imperium. I'm also arguing against the idea that marines would auto lose in a war between them and the Navy ; while Marines aren't made for pitched battles involving large amounts of ordnance fire and tanks, they were pretty much specifically made for space boarding actions.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
I was only responding to the SM lovers point on the Imperial Navy. If the Imperial Guard have no fleet support however, this does give the Space Marines an advantage. Are we assuming the Imperial Navy has just disappeared?
The hypothetical doesn't go into that detail, it merely outlined the two sides with space marines attacking imperial guard and since the Imperial Navy aren't part of the Imperial Guard we really can't assume they'd be part of the same scenario.
And we know that Humanity couldn't keep a united front even with the pre-DAoT period technology. Obviously the threats haven't gone down from then. The Emperor deemed it necessary to unite Mankind through the Astartes, surely because he couldn't do it with the guard he already had at his disposition (which were better than current ones).
You are a bit wrong on a few fronts here
1: It has never been stated as far as I could find that before the Men of iron issue that humanity was not one empire.
2: The Emperor planed to replace humans with better humans, he had a long game and yes he built the SM, but they by the time the HH came about where already becoming just another tool. The Imperial army was already starting to take a far more active role.
3: That the Imperial army was "Better" then the current IG. which is simply not the case, the IA had a much smaller number and while they may have been good troops, they where a drop in the bucket next to IG numbers.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
That is an hilarious sentence.
I find it funny myself you keep avoiding the very question of manpower.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
They never provided us figures for such a large section of the fleets, so you have no way of knowing this. And since the Hammer of Rightfulness took 1000 years to be build up, I really doubt they are so common.
Eh there have been numbers of both common sector fleets printed and common number of ships to SM chapters 30 to 1 is being generous.
And as for the time it takes to build a ship...name the book, ships are the biggest thing GW fails on pinning down, some books but them at 1000 years, some at 20 and some at 2-3. Based off the most commonly repeated numbers I have found, 20-50 years is about right.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
can fold an entire force, if it's the flagship.
I have no clue what you mean here, If you mean putting all the SM in one ship..please do, far easier to kill that way. An Apocalypse class Battleship will eat a Battlebarg, it is a bit slower, but better defense, better weapons and better range its not a question of if it can kill the BB, but how close the BB can get before it does. And with the much, much greater rang and only slightly slower speed...its not close. A BB isn't a mtch in any form to a battleship, a grandcruser is an almost even match but a BS will kill it hard.
The idea that the SM could crush the navy is honesty an laughable one. They. Do.Not.Have. The. Manpower.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
The greatest alien threat to the Imperium in the last millenia was met by about 150-200 Navy ships. GW likes to throw words like ''innumerable'' and ''untold'', but when they actually get down to numbers and telling, you realise it's a lot less stupidly huge then initially thought (except for the Navy effectives and the range of Navy weapons).
No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?
No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?
2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.
That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?
I doubt that, the Rock and it's escort fleet alone could probably be considered on the same level as many smaller sectorial fleet. Most figures given for fleet base chapter is around a dozen ship. That doesn't account, again, for the non codex-adherent chapters, like the Black Templars, which surely have many dozens of ships.
I have no clue what you mean here
.
Wasn't rocket science, but hey, let's give it another try : losing your flagship, in a naval battle, is a horrible loss. It alone can decide the outcome of the battle. Like it did with the boarding action in Soulhunter.
A BB isn't a mtch in any form to a battleship, a grandcruser is an almost even match but a BS will kill it hard.
Read Soulhunter. You'll see that a battlebarge doesn,t need to match the firepower of the battleship to beat it. They only need to get in boarding range (which they apparently have no problems doing).
The idea that the SM could crush the navy is honesty an laughable one. They. Do.Not.Have. The. Manpower.
The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.
Kovnik Obama wrote: 2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.
I am unfamiliar with that one now so can't comment on it. I'll familiarize myself with it and get back to you.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
I doubt that, the Rock and it's escort fleet alone could probably be considered on the same level as many smaller sectorial fleet. Most figures given for fleet base chapter is around a dozen ship. That doesn't account, again, for the non codex-adherent chapters, like the Black Templars, which surely have many dozens of ships.
A score is 20, so you just agreed on average the SM have under 20 capital ships per chapter.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Wasn't rocket science, but hey, let's give it another try : losing your flagship, in a naval battle, is a horrible loss. It alone can decide the outcome of the battle. Like it did with the boarding action in Soulhunter.
It also wasn't in a clear sentience structure either. Yes losing a flag ships is bade, however if the flag ship in question is a battleship the SM have little hope of getting close enough to board. A grand cruiser would give a battle barge a real mauling, a few cruisers can do the same. I have no clue about the soulhunter or what book it was in or any of that. I am using the data I do have and in a space battle with even numbers, the Sm are at a disadvantage.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Read Soulhunter. You'll see that a battlebarge doesn,t need to match the firepower of the battleship to beat it. They only need to get in boarding range (which they apparently have no problems doing).
Ah Bl book I am guessing which almost every time Ignores the fluff or rules GW use. So what kind of ship,(class) did the Sm take, how did they get close and what type of ship where they using? All of this is a factor as any and every SM ship simply can not close on a battleship, they simply do not have range. Thats not a question, it is a fact.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.
Again they do not have the manpower,you have lost 5 men...5 gone you can't get them back until after the fight and most likely lost a good number of your men ships getting close enough to get them on the ship. In a game of number the SM always lose.
you keep bring all this up, but are providing zero deatils. What type of ship did they take, how many ships did the navy have, how many ships did they have, how did they get that close?
you keep bring all this up, but are providing zero deatils. What type of ship did they take, how many ships did the navy have, how many ships did they have, how did they get that close?
How am I not giving details? I'm telling you that, in one war between the Traitor Legion the Navy, one Night Lord battlebarge charged the cluster of Navy ships before all other Chaos ships. There were no grand strategy, other than operating a loop that allowed the barge to lauch simultaneous boarding pods on two enemy ships. 5 ran the lenght of the ship, killing all, including the Admiral. I can't check my books, I'm at work. But I red the book less than a month ago, so I doubt I'm mistaken on anything else than maybe the number of marines (maybe 6 instead of 5).
The tzeentchian Captain of the NL went in lenght on what made a space commander superior to another (he was himself considered the best naval captain of his Legion). Reading the flow instinctually, autonomy, and individual superiority, not numbers or firepower or range (while those do matter, of course). While this might be biased, he considered himself (and by extension his battlebarge) a shark, while the Navy ships were fishes. Instinct, superiority and autonomy ; the stuff of Marines...
So writer fiat. Gotcha That battlebarge would have been under the guns of that BS alone for 30 mins or more before it could close to get within long range of its own weapons.
Then another 30 or better to close within boarding range all the while under fire from the whole fleet. The ship would have been dust before closing close enough to board, bearing godlike luck and it was simply heavily damaged and not destroyed they had zero hope of getting close enough to board.
Using GW fluff and GW rules that BB would have died long before it could get in range to even teleport. And then, while its true little on the ship could have stopped them, they could have but it would have been a bit hard 5 men even SM can be boren to the ground with enough numbers. Assuming they could not stop them, it could have taken hours to gut the ship, hull, bulkheads, troops holding area's and so forth it would not have been a cake walk and all the while this is going on the ship still could have unleashed death.
What you have here is a case of a writer have no knowledge of 40k ships, ship combat or scale. Its kinda common with BL stuff.
So we can take GW's, all other fluff and the rules word, or that of one book that ignores all of those things.Sorry man everything else I have and every published about ships and ship combat disagrees
Kovnik Obama wrote:The number of man available doesn't matter as much when every single Marines is in a situation of absolute superiority against all the Navy guard aboard. And this is what this is. 5 Marines took on a ship manned by over 100 000 Navy crew, and sunk it in less than 15 minutes. THEY. HAVE. THE. MANPOWER.
Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.
Engine of War wrote:I wanna know why this is still going.
Sparks_Havelock wrote:Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.
That's boring to you. Considering that was about Super-Humans beating the frak out of poor little humans, not saving them, I think you missed the mark. I think you've pretty much just missed the whole fething point of marines.
Using GW fluff and GW rules that BB would have died long before it could get in range to even teleport. And then, while its true little on the ship could have stopped them, it could have taken hours to gut the ship, hull, bulkheads, troops holding area's and so forth it would not have been a cake walk and all the while this is going on the ship still could have unleashed death.
There is no such thing as canon in GW fluff. All BL authors are valid sources of comparison for the fluff. Crunch is in no way a proper way to determine fluff.
And you can simply ask around about the opinion on Soulhunter, but I gather it's considered one of the best 40k fiction available.
I wanna know why this is still going.
... Because of this
You know what's even more futile than this thread? Your post...
Sparks_Havelock wrote:Ah now, if you don't mind me butting in here, 5 Astartes took on 100,000 and destroyed that ship because THE. AUTHOR. WANTED. TO. MAKE. THE. ASTARTES. LOOK. EPIC. TO. A. GODLY. LEVEL. Which is pretty much what all BL Astartes stuff is about. Poor little humans needing super-human help. Boring.
That's boring to you. Considering that was about Super-Humans beating the frak out of poor little humans, not saving them, I think you missed the mark. I think you've pretty much just missed the whole fething point of marines.
Nah, I was thinking about all the times Astartes 'save' the Imperial Guard by landing in time to save the day & take all the credit.
Kovnik Obama wrote:You know what's even more futile than this thread? Your post...
Oh good grief, do people lack a sense of humour these days?
when that source frankly contradicts every thing else ever written,then its wrong. The fact remains there is no way outside writer fiat a BB can close on a BS without massive damage. It simply can not be done, a BB is under the gun for half an hour being bounded by weapons that can one shot a smaller ship, they have less shields, and less defenses then a BS.
"they just charged it" is an exsample of the writer not having a clue about the subject matter. They can charge in but when you are going in without evasive manovuers( which is not charging) on a heavily armored and defended foe with twice your range you are not gonna make it.
If the writer had bothered to look at the ships involved he would have known it was frankly suicide with little change of even getting within the BB long range, much less boarding.
Explain to me how this ship got in range? Charging in leaves it dead, every single time. Only writer Fiat can change that simple fact.
40k has canon, it is simply embarrassingly ill managed. all setting have Canon, Gw throws up that BS line just like the "We are not a game company" lie to try and cover the horrid mismanagement they do of the setting.
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Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Oh good grief, do people lack a sense of humour these days?
I got it man, made me laugh, because it is true and a great comic
Nah, I was thinking about all the times Astartes 'save' the Imperial Guard by landing in time to save the day & take all the credit.
Lol, well yeah, that's horribly boring, but that's just plain horrible use of an obvious Deus Ex Machina. Personnally, I think that the SM and Guardmen should pretty much never meet. They aren't designed for similar condition of warfare, IG being excellent at conventionnal, Marines being excellent at unconventionnal warfare. Space battles are pretty much the ultimate unconventionnal battleground.
The whole thing about the Marines being Godly. Well, they are, from our respective point of view. I completly believe the representation of 5-6 marines moving up a ship and simply crushing all in their way... Imagine for a second the horror of being shot at with bolt rounds in the tight confines of a ship. To me, it's basically a question of how quick can they get to the helm and kill the admiral.
I think we would all much more appreciate the Marine fluff if themselves (the Marines) didn't sound like such dumbasses on steroid. No one cares that Iron Man is capable of holding off by himself the US Air Force, as long as it requires him to use his intelligence.
Kovnik Obama wrote: Crunch is in no way a proper way to determine fluff.
We are not speaking fluff alone, we are asking if something can be done. You keep ignoring Evey single thing that gives the answer and keep using one source that contradict all others. Either everything ever written other then soulhunter is incorrect or it is.
No clue which one you are talking about really, but that sounds bout like a sector battlefleet. How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive. That is most likely the total of the entire SM active fleet, what do they have maybe a score of warships per chapter if that?
2 Sector Battlefleet, (one which is supposed to be the strongest after Solar) assembled against Leviathan. All they could do is burn their own world instead of giving them to the Nids. In comparison, it took 4 Chapters, one partially assembled Battlefleet and some PDF to beat the crap out of Behemoth.
Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.
A bit off topic but the tactic Dominus Astra. used. Might be a damned effective way at killing nid fleets. True it is a ship killer, but the Nids have no defense aginest it.
Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.
Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ? (Edit; So I guess it was the Battlefleet's flagship which sacrificed itself?)
In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters. A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.
We are not speaking fluff alone, we are asking if something can be done. You keep ignoring Evey single thing that gives the answer and keep using one source that contradict all others. Either everything ever written other then soulhunter is incorrect or it is.
And the Word Bearer serie while you are at it. And no, if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point. BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms. Maybe GW will change this (I would like that), but they haven't. ''Every single things that gives an answer'' has no value if I can give you an exemple of a story set in the 40K, published by a filial of GW, which directly contradicts ''every single things''.
Behemoth, the smallest of the large hivefleets, was finaly crushed by battleforce Tempestus which lost almost 200 warships, including their flagship Dominus Astra.
Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ?
Imperial Navy, not the Space Marines.
I'd like to know the timeframe too, since Behemoth somewhat ressurected after Maccrage. Wouldn't it be the second splinter?
In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters.
A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.
You've got a very different recollection of the Battle for Maccrage than I do. Sure, the Ultramarines put up a good fight, but it was the arrival of the Imperial Navy (and subsequent sacrifice of their flagship) that tore out the beating heart of the Hive Fleet. Without them, Maccrage would without doubt be another barren rock.
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Kovnik Obama wrote:
And the Word Bearer serie while you are at it. And no, if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point. BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms. Maybe GW will change this (I would like that), but they haven't. ''Every single things that gives an answer'' has no value if I can give you an exemple of a story set in the 40K, published by a filial of GW, which directly contradicts ''every single things''.
Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.
Kovnik Obama wrote: BFG is not a better source on ships than a novel focussing on ships, if they are both written in fluff terms.
This is incorrect. BFG is the main source, like all codex are. It is the prime authority on ships, range and how they act in battle. Everything else is a secondary source.
Kovnik Obama wrote: if the company states ; ''We do not hold any fluff as canon'', that means that all fluff are comparatively valid, or retconned, at some point.
Also incorrect. The term does not change just because a company is to lazy to keep track of its own canon. Also retconned canon means the old "fluff" is no longer canon. GW simply fails at managing its own setting, that failing does not change the definition of canon.
Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.
Actually, the BFG book would be a more authoritative source than novels. The same way a codex is more authoritative than novels.
Both statements are directly in contradictions to statements by GW officials. You are both factually (as in actual facts, not made-up facts about an imaginary setting) wrong.
Both statements are directly in contradictions to statements by GW officials. You are both factually (as in actual facts, not made-up facts about an imaginary setting) wrong.
No, both statements are correct. GW's mismanagement of its own product does not change that, GW contradicts things six times a day, they do a crap job of managing the setting and do not understand what "Canon" means. None of that change facts. Core rule books are first source, what amounts to licensed products are 2nds or 3rd source products.
You simply don't like that fact they make your "source " out as overblown, kinda silly and flat out imposable.
No. There is no ''hermeneutics of 40k'', no application of historico-critical method. A canon requires an authority to make it so (as evidenced by the religious origin of the word). A story setting which doesn't have a certain level of coercition on it's author is a setting without canon. If the authority behind some fluff says, ''well, another author might represent it differently, and he wouldn't be more right than me'', that again is a setting without canon.
See the difference between old World of Darkness fluff and WoD 2.0? That's the one.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Can I get a source, please? I remember something about a SM ship sacrificing itself... ? (Edit; So I guess it was the Battlefleet's flagship which sacrificed itself?)
In any way, this seem to support my point, tho. Maccrage was defended by a Chapter, with honourable (and posthume) mention going to 3 other Chapters.
A Battlefleet had to lose 200 ships to finish up what was mostly accomplished by 4 Chapters.
Codex Tyranids 4.edition p.14 ( unlike the current dex it includes the numbers for the Tempestus fleet ). Your assumption that the Ultramarines won the war in space is incorrect.
Codex Tyranids 5.edtion p.14 tells us that Calgar's fleet, after being defeated near Macragge, pursued the hivefleet to the rings of Circe where it was ambushed by a much larger, second Tyranid fleet.
The planned and timely arrival of the Tempestus Fleet and especialy the sacrifice of the Emperor class battleship Dominus Astra ( despite the arrival of Admiral Rath's fleet the battle was going in the swarm's favour ) made the imperial victory possible.
Sigh, no. canon does not change, just because you are to lazy to manage it. 40k has canon, its badly manged but there. The primary source GW uses are the rule books. BL stuff often are not even really in the same setting as other books sometimes those written by the same guy.
Look man, you have one source that is overruled by most others, including sources that deal only with ship combat, ships and ship weapons. They overrule something written by someone who ignored them to "tell a good story"
That good story does not change the facts SM's would die long, long,long before even closing to med range on a battleship.
Personal criticisms toward another poster are not needed or appropriate, and usually constitute a breach of Rule #1. -Mannahnin
"In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction, which are not considered canonical. It is used in two slightly different meanings: first, "it refers to the overall set of storylines, premises, settings, and characters offered by the source media text".[1]:28 In this sense, canon is "the original work from which the fan fiction author borrows,"[2] or "the original media on which the fan fictions are based."[3] Secondly, it is used "as a descriptor of specific incidents, relationships, or story arcs that take place within the overall canon"; thus certain incidents or relationships may be described as being canon or not.[1]:32 The alternative term mythology is often used, especially to refer either to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), or to a central thread of storytelling running through a broad fictional canon that may episodically wander into many side plots with little connection to that thread."
-Canon (literary concept), Wikipedia
The first sense is inapplicable, from GW's admission that all BL fiction is official fiction. Or it's applicable, but only when comparing GW's and BL's and FFL's books to the fan-fict section of Dakka. The second meaning refers directly to the need of an authority to lend absolute credence to some elements of the fiction, which they have officially declined to do.
Basically, not all IP have a canon. Making something, or anything canon is an IP management decision, and as nothing to do with your opinion. It has everything to do with the stated facts of the authority (GW).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:Codex Tyranids 4.edition p.14 ( unlike the current dex it includes the numbers for the Tempestus fleet ). Your assumption that the Ultramarines won the war in space is incorrect.
Holy crap thanks for the digging. And was
Codex Tyranids 5.edtion p.14 tells us that Calgar's fleet, after being defeated near Macragge, pursued the hivefleet to the rings of Circe where it was ambushed by a much larger, second Tyranid fleet.
This ever mentioned in the previous Space Marines Codexi? I'm not sure anymore about my Maccrage fluff, I wonder if it's because of retcons, or just plain bad memory...? I'm not sure I want to dig again through it...
Basically, not all IP have a canon. Making something, or anything canon is an IP management decision, and as nothing to do with your opinion. It has everything to do with the stated facts of the authority (GW).
sigh, yet canon says the very thing written about in that BL book CAN. NOT. HAPPEN.Stop hiding behind the same lazy excuse they do.
GW says they are both Canon, yet they honestly can not be. Either BFG and everything else about Ships are correct or that BL book is. "Both" is an example of Canon contradicting itself. In cases that happen you look over all of it and if one of the sources simply does not fit the others it is then incorrect.
You have yet to explain how the BB got close enough to board the BS or how 5 men, even termies lived. It comes down to pure Writer fiat which honestly goes agines other examples we have of Canon.
I'm back home, and can correct a few things I stated on the Crythe Invasion. The Covenant of Blood is a Strike Cruiser. The Chaos Astartes fleet contained three major ships, bigger, but I didn't find their class. In all it sounded like about 15 Traitor ships. The Covenant of Blood took on the Gothic Class The Resolute and another one, I'll try to find the class. Basically, they engaged while allowing another (Black Legion) ship to take the brunt of the fire, than ran a plunge called insidious predation (!?!) which brought them between the two ships to be eliminated. They also sent 18 marines onboard, but only 5 actually made it to the helm (the rest survived, but got bogged down/took out secondary targets) Here's a bit more.
The NL modus operandi :
“It has been said by tacticians throughout the ages of mankind that no plan survives contact with the enemy. I do not waste my time countering the plans of my foes, brother. I never care what the enemy intends to do, for they will never be allowed to do it. Stir within their hearts the gift of truest terror, and all their plans are ruined in the desperate struggle merely to survive.” —The Primarch Konrad Curze, Allegedly speaking to his brother, Sanguinius of the Blood Angels
That particular Captain (a deamon prince, actually), the Exalted ;
This was his gift. The Exalted knew void war, seeing its grandeur within his swollen mind the way other men saw the weapons in their hands. [...] Its reputation—and, by extension, the reputation of the warband that had once been the 10th Company—was assured through a record of space battles won, largely thanks to the void warfare skills of the Exalted.[...] The Exalted likened void war to the feeding frenzy of sharks. [...] Each ship was a shark swimming in the three-dimensional battlefield of space, and only the most talented fleet commanders could harness their instincts and bring their forces together into an efficient hunting pack. [...] He was no fleet commander. His own talents had never been in bringing about such a pack unity. [...] In fact, quite the opposite. He had no desire to inspire tactical union within the fleets he sailed with. All he cared about was the dissolution of order within the enemy’s armada.The easiest way to win a void battle was to ensure no enemy commander achieved tactical unity for his own forces. If their overall cohesion was compromised, each vessel could be isolated from any potential support and torn apart, alone, piece by piece.
The battle itself :
Even a cursory glance at the occulus revealed to the Exalted that the battle result was inevitable. The Imperial fleet was doomed. [...] Two Imperial ships stood out from the pack. Two targets that had to be destroyed in order to dissolve the hopes of tactical unity. [...] The larger ship was still target-locked on the Warmaster’s attacking vessels— it had had no time to bring its furious weapons array to bear on the new arrival yet—although the support ships in its shadow began to power up to destroy the racing Night Lords cruiser plunging into their midst. [...] The Exalted watched as one of the icons situated behind the Covenant’s symbol winked out of existence. The Unblinking Eye was no more, coming to pieces under the final assault of the Resolute. A Black Legion ship: one of the Warmaster’s own. [...] Then it was the Covenant’s turn. The strategium shuddered again, and not gently. But the shields were holding [...] The Resolute had been his first target because its shields were already down. He’d known from the moment the battle hololithic display had flickered into life that, from its place in the formation, the Gothic-class cruiser had fallen back from the fighting to restore its void shields. [...] The Exalted snarled harsh manoeuvre orders, and the Covenant strained to obey. It began below the Resolute, and with engines howling, it climbed hard. Shields still holding, rippling as they reflected incoming fire, the strike cruiser sliced almost vertically up past the Resolute’s starboard side. The Night Lords ship presented almost no target to the masses of broadsides, though they fired anyway. [...] Running abeam of the ship would have allowed for a more standard exchange of heavy broadside batteries as the ships coasted alongside each other, but lancing vertically seemed to achieve nothing at all. Although the Resolute’s broadside volley went tearing off into space, completely wasted, the Covenant’s weapons batteries would have also done almost nothing—if they had actually fired. The guns of the Night Lords vessel remained silent. [...] All this smiling made the creature weep more aching tears. They had just run a gauntlet of Imperial vessels through the heart of the enemy fleet, and by the time the officers of the Resolute realised what had happened, three squads of Astartes would be butchering their way to the command decks. [...] One down, one to go. [...] The Exalted licked its lips with a black tongue. “Fire all forward lances and torpedoes at hull section 63 as we move across her bow. Time the firing of the bombardment cannon to coincide with the exact moment our lances and torpedoes strike.” [...] “My lord, Exalted of the Dark Gods… This attack vector will bring us within the Sword’s firing solution for fifteen seconds.” “Thirteen,” the Exalted corrected with a death’s head grin. “And that is why as soon as we fire our prow weapons, the ship will execute a Coronus Dive, full burn on the engines with port thrusters overloaded by seventy per cent. We will roll while holding maximum sustainable negative yaw and pitch for ten seconds.” [...] Lord… we’re too large a vessel for—” “Silence. You will coordinate this attack run with main armament weapons fire from the vessels Ironmonger, Vengeful Spirit, and the Blade of Flame. Align with their strategiums and inform them of our intent.” [...] To all observers, it seemed the Covenant of Blood was sacrificing itself in a ramming run. And it would succeed, too. That much weight, inertia and explosive capability would burn out the Sword’s shields and gut the ship to its core. But the Covenant didn’t ram its prey. [...] It returned fire just as its shields died, unleashing a blistering barrage of lances, solid shells and plasma fire from its prow weapons batteries, as well as a precisely timed single magma bomb warhead, principally designed for surface attack, from its bombardment cannon. [...] All of this unleashed punishment was enough, barely, to achieve the Exalted’s desires. The colossal Sword of the God-Emperor, pride of Battlefleet Crythe, flagship of Lord Admiral Valiance Arventaur, no longer shimmered behind an invincible screen of rippling energy. [...] They would be back online within moments—a minute at the very most—multi-layered and strong once more. The Covenant of Blood veered sharper than a cruiser of its size had any right to do, throwing itself into a potentially terminal rolling dive alongside and past the grand cruiser it had almost rammed. Alarms hammered the senses of all her crew across the ship. The bladed spear of a vessel roared down into its dive, takingsecondary fire from the Sword’s broadsides as it plunged past. It didn’t return fire. [...] Halfway through its plunge, the Exalted felt that one perfect moment of connection with the battle. Here. Now. Even as his ship was being torn apart by Imperial guns, he felt the moment with unbroken clarity, and growled a single word. “Launch.”
And that sealed the naval battle for Crythe. Sorry for the huge post, but I got myself immersed in the battle. Honestly, Aaron Dembski-Bowden is awesome.
First off thank ya. I can now see some of the issues.
Kovnik Obama wrote:I'm back home, and can correct a few things I stated on the Crythe Invasion. The Covenant of Blood is a Strike Cruiser. The Chaos Astartes fleet contained three major ships, bigger, but I didn't find their class. In all it sounded like about 15 Traitor ships. The Covenant of Blood took on the Gothic Class The Resolute and another one, I'll try to find the class. Basically, they engaged while allowing another (Black Legion) ship to take the brunt of the fire, than ran a plunge called insidious predation (!?!) which brought them between the two ships to be eliminated. They also sent 18 marines onboard, but only 5 actually made it to the helm (the rest survived, but got bogged down/took out secondary targets) Here's a bit more.
A Gothic class, is a cruiser. Not a battle cruiser, or grand cruiser or Battleship. Shes large, but "Common" and in scale of power to a strike cruiser with weapons of the same range. It seems they handled it better then it sounded( Gods know memory recall does that )and went 'head hunting". all that is much more doable and in line with everything else. Sorry main it was seeming to me by what was posted they went straight in alone vs a much ,much more powerful ship and sent only 5 men. Based off what you shown here that was not the case.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
And that sealed the naval battle for Crythe. Sorry for the huge post, but I got myself immersed in the battle. Honestly, Aaron Dembski-Bowden is awesome.
Based off that he wrote it much better then it sounded. I have not read many 40k books i have vastly enjoyed. Most of those have been Abnett, you recommend this guy as well I take it? I have been reading 40k books based off recommendations as they are very,very hit and miss I have found.
A Gothic class, is a cruiser. Not a battle cruiser, or grand cruiser or Battleship. Shes large, but "Common" and in scale of power to a strike cruiser with weapons of the same range.
Cool. I really wasn't sure about the battle-barge being the class. But ADB later stated that a Battle Barge was a bigger ship then a strike cruiser, was that correct?
Sorry main it was seeming to me by what was posted they went straight in alone vs a much ,much more powerful ship and sent only 5 men.
Nah, this isn't the Black Templars against the Necrons
I have not read many 40k books i have vastly enjoyed. Most of those have been Abnett, you recommend this guy as well I take it? I have been reading 40k books based off recommendations as they are very,very hit and miss I have found.
Yeah. I get exactly what you mean. And yeah, I actually recommend that one very much. It shows a (humane) side of the Traitor Marines that we are not used to seeing. It's a much better book, then, let's say, the whole Word Bearer serie, which made it absolutely impossible to relate on any level to the characters.
Cool. I really wasn't sure about the battle-barge being the class. But ADB later stated that a Battle Barge was a bigger ship then a strike cruiser, was that correct?
Yeah. SM ships as a whole are smaller with a smaller number of crew as they tend to have more servitor control. A BB is more a planetary assault vessel, often the flag ship and pretty good sized ships, but are no match for something like a battleship. SM in the current ear are kinda limited to "Transport" vessels. Which both a strike cruiser and a Bb technically are. They are powerful ships, but devote much space to transporting SM , where a normal Ship of the Line just pack on more weapons and fighters.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yeah. I get exactly what you mean. And yeah, I actually recommend that one very much. It shows a (humane) side of the Traitor Marines that we are not used to seeing. It's a much better book, then, let's say, the whole Word Bearer serie, which made it absolutely impossible to relate on any level to the characters.
I have not heard good things about that set, so have avoided it.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The IN have both twenty or thirty times the number of capital ships in a single sector and range.
I asked the question, because this is actually a really imnportant point. The numbers you give here:
Hunterindarkness wrote:How so not huge? 150-200 active warships per sector, is fething massive.
I would like to know a source for.
You see, the battlefleet is called battlefleet Tempestus. As in, Segmentum Tempestus. As in, thats the entire fighting strength of the Segmentum. Are we sure these numbers are right? That would, assuming all segmentums have a roughly comparable number, give us the entire fighting strength of the Imperial navy at roughly 1,000 ships.
We'll assume it's incorrect, and that a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.
Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.
However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.
I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.
IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.
Why do I think this is important?
Because the Marines have around 12,000 ships of their own. Which is a huge portion of the IoM's naval capabilities, and a force easily able to go toe-to-toe with any Segmentum battlefleet.
Kovnik Obama wrote:See the difference between old World of Darkness fluff and WoD 2.0? That's the one.
Interesting. Your the 12th person i've seen use the above as a shorthand for the situation re: canonicity.
In truth it may simply be the way the wind is blowing for RPG and wargaming companies with an RPG element.
The "indeterminate sandbox with a few set themes" is a much easier creature to control than "decade spanning metaplot written by over a dozen writers/game designers and carefully fact checked to prevent any inconsistency whatsoever."
Because the Marines have around 12,000 ships of their own. Which is a huge portion of the IoM's naval capabilities, and a force easily able to go toe-to-toe with any Segmentum battlefleet.
well first off I was using numbers some one else had gave, but even if they have 12'000, which I do not think they do that's IoM wide. It would be hard to guess how many numbers they really have. some chapters will have large fleets and some tiny. It is known it is rare for a chapter to have more then 1 or 2 BB's, some have three. We know some use real warships such as the space wolves battleship. the state of 40k fluff makes it about impossible to know real numbers but 12'000 is as good a guess as any. However that assumes they are allowed to mass as one fleet, its rare for a segmentums fleet to do so, i don't know of nay time off hand the whole fleet has gathered.
sector per sector the SM navy simply stands no chance. But then they have been sit up that way.
I am also pretty sure you have it wrong on fleet size, a sector fleet is huge. I'll see if i can hunt up some sources a bit later.
Hunterindarkness wrote:sector per sector the SM navy simply stands no chance. But then they have been sit up that way.
It all depends on the circumstances of the hypothetical, but it's an interesting point to consider, and makes the Astartes even more vital to the Imperial Navy, equating to about a 20% increase in resources Imperium wide.
Eh most the ships they are are classified as 'transports", even if they are not. And a good amount of the SM fleet seems to be screening ships such as destroyers and such.
The SM fleet is set up for planetary action, not space battles. they can do it, just not as well as a fleet meant for that job.
As I said I'll see if I can hunt numbers up..but eh its GW fluff so who knows
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here we go, some numbers we can work with (assuming they are still canon)
p.86 BFG Rule Book. "normally a sector fleet contains between 50-75 ships, Although some sector will have more or less according to importance"
It goes on to say that this does not count transports, scouting ship, shuttles and the like.
I am pretty sure I have seen such numbers somewhere for SM chapters that put them under 12 ships. But honestly i can't recall where right now.
Edit: Sm stuff
Fleets of the Imperial navy p. 22-26
Battlbarges are giving as 2-3 per chapter. Most chapters, a few having more, some having less. Holds three companies.
Strike cruisers number are not given, but called "Rare" next to navy warships. Hold a full company of SM's
They use Firestorms, Cobras ,swords, Hunters, Gladius and Nova's.Numbers are not listed.
Now taking that into acrount we can give the avg chapter 2 BB and 4 SC as that would carry the whole chapter, say that number again in escorts so yeah about 12-15 ships per chapter.
i couldn't find one without the Star Wars comparison (it seems to show the ships in every incarnation of star wars. video game, movie, you name it.
40k ships on the bottom underneath the Super Star Destroyer.
I can't find a "Gothic Class" in the picture. but there are the Lunar, Endevour Light Cruiser, Dictator class cruisers, and Dark Templar Escort Cruiser, with the SM having 2 smaller "Strike Cruisers". One is standard SM while the Other is GK (and is larger)
the Normal Space Marine Battle Barge doesn't have the same sheer size and bulk of a full blown battleship but is just as long.
There are 2 SM ships that are increadibly large. the "Mobile Chapter Fortress" which i would assume i could probly count on 1 hand the number that exist. and a "Maladictors battle barge"
Otherwise there are the REtrobution class Batlteships and all the other Navy ships under it like the Grand Cruisers.
Mind you not every ship on the list is show in the size comparison picture, some ships in the list even dwarf that Mobile chapter fortress thing.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gothic_Cruiser This is your gothic class. From what i can deduce its slightly smaller then a Lunar class (on the chart)
a Gothic is not a significant "threat" to a Battle Barge. it has powerful lance batterys but from what i can imagine it doesn't matter that 5 marines took it.
now... if 5 took a Retrobution class or a Emperor class battleship i would be impressed but they havn't and cannot.
Edit: continued looking through Lexicanum and i can't find that gigantic "Mobile Chapter Fortress" anywhere nor the Maladoctor Barge variant.
it only shows the normal Barge. a Strike Cruiser, frigates and the few smaller ships under their control (like thunderhawks and things)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vessels_(List)
Good chart. Yeah BB are large, but they are mostly dedicated to putting three companies of SM on the ground. They really only have the firepower to hold off a cruiser or perhaps Grand cruiser.
To be fair thre Gothic is on the small side of Cruisers and while a BB could waste it, a strike cruiser would have a rough, rough way to go as the gothic is better in about every way.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Good chart. Yeah BB are large, but they are mostly dedicated to putting three companies of SM on the ground. They really only have the firepower to hold off a cruiser or perhaps Grand cruiser.
To be fair thre Gothic is on the small side of Cruisers and while a BB could waste it, a strike cruiser would have a rough, rough way to go as the gothic is better in about every way.
Agreed. a Battle barge vs a Gothic would be a 1 sided battle. but a Strike Cruiser vs a Gothic would be different.
reading into the Strike cruiser....... Its built for Troop Deployment and light planatary bombardment, being armed akin to a Light cruiser in the Imperial navy a Gothic would tear a stiek cruiser in half with its Anti ship Lance batteries.
Yeah it would. the Strike cruiser is a small but better armored then a light cruiser, but that is it. a real cruiser would eat it. Sm ships are more or less gutted to do the job or deployment.
Oh and Lexicanum says somethign about Chapters holding from 1 to 3 battle Barges (depending on chapter) and other ships. giving them the low end in terms of ship numbers.
and nigh all SM ships are built for either planetary attack or Troop Deployment. (cause thats what the Codex Astartes says they must be built for!)
Apparently if there was a Sm ship that was built for fighting other ships then every starts to complain about it (everyone being the Inqusition, Mechanicus, High Lords, Navy) as its the Navys job for killing other ships.
the Sm have 1 such ship the Nova Frigate (armed with a lance battery on its front end) but due to everyones complaints they are extreamly rare and rarly ever venture away from SM worlds.
Argument is: SM ships could destroy Imperial navy Ships.
Conclusion: SM ships are built for other tasks entirly and the Navy is built to kill other space craft. Not only that SM ships are fewer in number and do not have the firepower to stand up to a proper Imperial Navy Warship.
end result: Sm ships are swamped by the sheer firepower and numbers of the Imperial Navy.
Navy Wins. (and by extension Guard win too. and still.... in an all out ground battle IG WIN! Numbers and sheer firepower dominates over Space marines!!)
Well a BB holds 3 companies. They really do not ever need over 2-3 as they only have 10 total companies. The rest of it would be filled out with single company SC.
Its a safe bet that they hold about 2 Bb and 4 SC on avg. They have no need for any more, They have some small escort craft such as the firestorm, sword, cobra, nova, gladius and such. The reason the Nova gets disliked is it is a pure warship, true a small one but it does not carry Sm squads and the like. But in the end those small ships are only a threat in large numbers to anything other then escorts or transports.
The IN vs. SM argument is kind of funny, because using the Battlefleet Gothic fluff as a guide, the SM are in trouble.
1) Weapons:
The SM use "bombardment cannons" who are used to hit planets. They do not possess the traverse speed or targeting capabilities to reliably hit space targets, and so tend to rely on volume of fire (much like Weapons Batteries, the smallest guns on Imperial Navy ships).
The SM do sometimes use torpedoes, but overall tend to have much less ordnance in space than the IN per ship.
The IN has a virtual monopoly on lance batteries and nova cannons.
2) Defenses:
Space Marine vessels tend to be tougher on the whole because of increased armored protection, although IN ships are no slouch either.
The IN tends to have more point-defense turrets than SM ships on the whole.
3) Notes:
Unfortunately for the Marines, increased armored protection is completely worthless against lance batteries, which the IN fields in large numbers.
This makes the hypothetical encounter of, say, an Apocalypse-class battlecruiser with a Battle-barge so hilariously one-sided it's not even comparable.
4) Numbers:
The SM usually only have a few battle-barges per chapter. This means that they will always and forever be outnumbered by the IN on a stupidly disparate scale. Sort of like the IG.
A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.
Strike cruisers are a step between a Navy light cruiser like a Dauntless, and a Gothic/Lunar class cruiser. They are better armoured, comparably armed, have launch bays and better shielding than a light cruiser, but less armament and smaller structure than a ship-of-the-line like a Gothic or Lunar class (although still better armour).
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.
Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.
Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?
Hell, nevermind the torpedoes and ridiculous amounts of ordnance the Navy could dish out, on basic weaponry alone the the Imperial Navy will outshoot the Astartes anyday. To even inflict casualties the Astartes need to close the distance and board, and they simply won't be able to do that without getting shot to pieces.
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.
They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.
Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.
Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?
lolwut?
Just going by the BFG game, hardly a strict standard I know but the only source I can think of for a comparison:
A Retribution class Battlship has:
Port and Starboard weapons batteries at Strength 12. The number shots these get are calculated by the gunnery table, so you'll rarely get all 12 shots. Each shot needs to roll equal to or over the targets armour value.
A single Dorsal lance battery at Strength 3. You'll always get these three shots, and the power behind them means they always hit on a 4+ regardless of the targets armour value.
A Battlebarge has Strength 12 Weapons batteries as well, although at 45cm range as opposed to the Battleships 60cm.
It also has a Strength 8 Bombardment cannon. This also needs to use the gunnery table, so you'll again rarely get all 8 shots, but they also always hit on a 4+ and also cause a critical hit on a 4+.
Yes, the Battleship outranges the Battlebarge, but the barge has better armour and sports launch bays of its own.
Yes, you bet I'm saying bombardment cannons are a fair match for lances.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.
They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.
Kaldor wrote:A Battlebarge and Battleship are pretty much comparable to one another. They are a similar size, and although a Battleship will usually have longer range weaponry, the Battlebarge is better armoured and the destructive power of bombardment cannons easily make up the difference.
Sorry, are you honestly saying that bombardment cannons are going to be a fair match up against an array of lance weaponry?
lolwut?
Just going by the BFG game, hardly a strict standard I know but the only source I can think of for a comparison:
A Retribution class Battlship has:
Port and Starboard weapons batteries at Strength 12. The number shots these get are calculated by the gunnery table, so you'll rarely get all 12 shots. Each shot needs to roll equal to or over the targets armour value.
A single Dorsal lance battery at Strength 3. You'll always get these three shots, and the power behind them means they always hit on a 4+ regardless of the targets armour value.
A Battlebarge has Strength 12 Weapons batteries as well, although at 45cm range as opposed to the Battleships 60cm.
It also has a Strength 8 Bombardment cannon. This also needs to use the gunnery table, so you'll again rarely get all 8 shots, but they also always hit on a 4+ and also cause a critical hit on a 4+.
Yes, the Battleship outranges the Battlebarge, but the barge has better armour and sports launch bays of its own.
Yes, you bet I'm saying bombardment cannons are a fair match for lances.
Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.
I'm firing a Nova Cannon.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
If we pit the entire Navy against the entire Space Marine fleet, it's heavily stacked against the Marines, but it's not insurmountable. They'd be outnumbered about 5 to 1, so they'd need to find a way to even those odds.
They would be outnumbered a whole lot more than that.
Says who? Where are your figures?
Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.
Hazardous Harry wrote:Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.
I'm firing a Nova Cannon.
Points for humour, but in no way does a S6 lance battery (at only 30cm range) compare to a S12 Weapons Battery and S8 Bombardment cannon. Hell, it doesn't even compare to the firepower a Retribution can put out.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Says who? Where are your figures?
Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.
I have been reading the thread, and your numbers are a little off. While I'm happy to assume 3 Battlebarges per chapter, you need to remember that each chapter also has a few Strike Cruisers and escorts. I'd put the figure at around a dozen ships per chapter.
As for the Imperium, the closest we've been able to come to any numbers are:
a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.
Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.
However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.
I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.
IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.
Hazardous Harry wrote:Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.
I'm firing a Nova Cannon.
Points for humour, but in no way does a S6 lance battery (at only 30cm range) compare to a S12 Weapons Battery and S8 Bombardment cannon. Hell, it doesn't even compare to the firepower a Retribution can put out.
As I play BFG, I can tell you that you will never get the full S12 battery, unless you are shooting at stations. At most it will get 8 shots, if the IN is closing, in which case it's targeting the area with the strongest possible armour. The Apocalypse on the other hand will always get those lance shots, and they'll be completely unpenalised. Even without looking at the massive advantage of a Nova Cannon, almost any BFG player will tell you that (against anything but Eldar) lances are what really kill ships.
Also, good to see you aren't humourless.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Says who? Where are your figures?
Have you even been reading this thread? Each chapter, depending on their respective wealth and whether or not they a fleet-based, will have numbers of about 1-5 Battlebarges. So let's say about 3. That's 3000 Battlebarges in operation throughout the Imperium. If you were correct in saying they'd only be outnumbered 5 to 1 (which is still enough to ensure they are well and truly bent over the table) that would mean that the Imperium has only 15,000 ships in operation. That's a single ship for every 67 Imperial worlds or so. Even without looking at the BFG numbers we can clearly see that's not the case.
I have been reading the thread, and your numbers are a little off. While I'm happy to assume 3 Battlebarges per chapter, you need to remember that each chapter also has a few Strike Cruisers and escorts. I'd put the figure at around a dozen ships per chapter.
As for the Imperium, the closest we've been able to come to any numbers are:
a sector fleet is actually 200 ships. That gives us roughly 13,000 ships per segmentum, and 70,000 ships for the Imperial Navy to play with.
Now, this is only ball-park figures in the very loosest sense. Taking the standard galactic map, and using the distance between Earth and the Galactic Centre as a frame of reference, and assuming that each sector is about 200 light years cubed, we can work out that there should be about 135 sectors in the Segmentum Tempestus.
However, the Imperium of Man does not control all space. Large swathes of space are unexplored or occupied by enemy forces.
I think it is fair to say that only 50% of space within a segmentum is actually occupied by an Imperial Sector. If any numbers are going to be contentious, it's this one.
IF we assume around 65 sectors for Segementum Tempestus, at 200 ships per sector, we have 13,000 for the entire Segmentum, and if we assume that each Segmentum is comparable to the other we get 65,000 ships for the entire Navy.
I was under the impression we were restricting this to cruisers and above, as the amount of escorts the Imperial Navy has constantly spread throughout the Imperium on (you guessed it) escort duties, is likely a lot bigger than the figure given here.
1-5 battlebarges per chapter is a bit much. BFG states that the average chapter has two or three battlebarges.
Some will of course have more ( Black Templars, Ultramarines ) while others ( Flesh Tearers, Scythes of the Emperor ) will have less.
The number of strike cruisers is unknown but i would guess that your average chapter has at least enough to assign one capital ship to every battle company.
Hazardous Harry wrote:As I play BFG, I can tell you that you will never get the full S12 battery, unless you are shooting at stations. At most it will get 8 shots, if the IN is closing, in which case it's targeting the area with the strongest possible armour. The Apocalypse on the other hand will always get those lance shots, and they'll be completely unpenalised. Even without looking at the massive advantage of a Nova Cannon, almost any BFG player will tell you that (against anything but Eldar) lances are what really kill ships.
Also, good to see you aren't humourless.
I play BFG also, and in my experience it's buckets of weapons batteries with a lock-on order that kill ships Especially weapons batteries that hit on a 4+
KingDeath wrote:1-5 battlebarges per chapter is a bit much. BFG states that the average chapter has two or three battlebarges.
Some will of course have more ( Black Templars, Ultramarines ) while others ( Flesh Tearers, Scythes of the Emperor ) will have less.
The number of strike cruisers is unknown but i would guess that your average chapter has at least enough to assign one capital ship to every battle company.
The thing is, BB and SC are "transports" that is the duty they have. No Chapter has a need to have more then 3 BB ever, they carry 3 companies each, your chapter has a max of 10 companies. SC carry 1 company each. So in all honestly a Chapter is unlikely to have more then 3/6 and that is pushing it. Sc are rare, a chapter would not have 10 of them, it would be lucky to have 5 or 6. They are more likely to have 2 B and maybe 3- 4 Sc with the smaller gladuis filling the real work of squad transport.. Because you have to ask, how often do they really work at company level? Thats what it comes down to really, how many SM they chapter normally sends at one time.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Look at the Apocalypse Class Battleship, now at your Battlebarge, now back to the Apocalypse. Sadly, your Battlebarge isn't the Apocalypse, but it could dish out a jaw-dropping amount of firepower like the Apocalypse if it stopped using its meagre batteries and bombardments and started using ship-killing lances like the Apocalypse.
One thing I was thinking about ; in space warfare, there is virtually no effective limit for solid-shell weaponry. The 50 million kilometers seemed to me a horribly large figure, but in fact, as long as you have the computing power necessary to figure out the angle, you can bombard the Earth from behind the Solar system frontiers (maybe less depending on gravity wells). The speed of light is 18 millions of kilometers/minutes. Assuming solid shells do not travel faster than light in the 40K (we never know, Matt Ward might feel like it), than from maximum range a ship will have over 3-4 minutes to plan an evasion maneuver.
What this might mean is that unless you have a very large amount of ships capable of firing as a barrage over a VERY large amount of space, than it might be prohibitive to attack the enemy unless he is well within the effective range of your weaponry.
What this also means is that the only ship design that really would make sense, would be one where all armor and (energy) guns are on the prow, and the engines are capable of achieving the same reverse speed as the forward speed of your enemies. Once they get within their solid-shell maximum range, you start going into reverse, maintaining the max distance between you. Then it's just a question of focusing on (faster) energy attacks while constantly planning evasions solutions.
Well 40k space warfare is..rule of cool-space opera space warfare. The best way to think of 40k space warfare is age of sail type warfare.
You want to broadside, the prow of your ship can not mount many weapons, you use it to soften up a foe or when in "chase" The big cap ships all have massive broadsides, they want to be on the side with you running at that side, that want to form a "Line" and nail you with those broadsides as you close.
Now the kicker is as you said, effective range. Nominally the bigger ship mounts the bigger weapons with better range. Most 40k ships do have armored prows with massive prow weapons, normally lances or in the case of the Armageddon a Nova canon.
An Imperial Navy ship has a giant armored prow with multiple gun barrels or torpedo tubes sticking out of it.
Frontally an attack would have the dorsal mounted Lance turrets firing at your ship while the torpedoes or cannons or whatever mounted in the prow open up to soften up resistance. When range is made (in hundread of Kilometers) they ether turn broadside or fly past your ship. either way you are exposed to the broadside of the Imperial ship.
They all onboard weapons (on the side of the ship facing you and anything in a turret or can turn in space like a missile or something) will open up, smashing you to peices.
Its a strange combo of WW2 battleships and age of Sail combat.
another chart i found (Yay google!)
and the specs for a retrobution class battleship (sort of). like i said all those turrets on the top will fire as it fly towards you as well as the gigantic (as in Saturn 5 sized missiles) torpedos fly out of the prow and any other forward facing weapons open fire. as it gets within range it goes broadside and its whole flank lights up with its weapon batteries beating the targets into oblivion!!!
heres a battle barge opening up on a target (i think its a chaos cruiser but i cannot tell the tracers obscure it)
While thats impressive a Retrobution or other Navy Battleship can do alot more then a Battle barge firepower wise.
a Lance weapon is a giant laser weapon that produces a long and extreamly powerful energy beam that can cut through armor like a hot knife through butter.
Closest thing i can find to Navy battle. its a mod to a space ship/empire game with the Navy in it. the long beams from ship to ship is akin to the lance weapons. only it would be more violent, that and its missing the torpedoes and other things that would be fired (or i can't tell at least)
Cool line up man, I think some of those scales are a bit off however, a cobra is way smaller then that. Also those turrets on top are point defense weapons.
Fleet
You see the little ships on the right, those are cobra class destroyers Thay are about half the size or a firestorm/sword frigate.
SM fleet with 2 cruisers
You can also see three SC in that pic, Divine Hatred in front and the two to the right of the BB.The rest of the ships are escort types (frigates/destroyers)
Just the area around the ship, maybe a hundred or so meters at very most from the hull and that may be pushing it. You do not ever want to get anywhere that close to another ship in combat you do not plane to ram/board,"close" is just a few Km you really do not want to get closer to another ship moving then .5 Km and that is damned close.You can't really use your own shields to "shield" someone else. What you can do is shield them with the bulk of your own ship, taking a hit meant for them.
Closest thing i can find to Navy battle. its a mod to a space ship/empire game with the Navy in it. the long beams from ship to ship is akin to the lance weapons. only it would be more violent, that and its missing the torpedoes and other things that would be fired (or i can't tell at least)
I would definitely start playing SoaSE again with this mod.
another chart i found (Yay google!)
