Serder makes me think of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which orders guardsmen that, if their commanders are killed or if they're stuck behind enemy lines, that they need to try to cause as much damage as possible before they die.

The problem with Space Marines is that the distinctions and improvement from the incredible lengths the imperium goes to support them aren't significant enough. The techonological advantage to having millenium old technology isn't significant enough.

A little perspective on numbers... even if each and every IG company had only a single plasmagun, there would still be more plasmaguns than astartes pattern bolters in the galaxy.

Given all the resources put into space marines by the Imperium, providing every last one of them with a special or heavy weapon, or in the least the more specialized sternguard ammo would not just make sense but given the expended resources to produce a marine would be within the realm of practicality for even the most screwed up bureaucracy... since it'd be easier than providing a unique pattern of bolter. For all the fluff of the space marines the Bolter is a bit of a handicap. On the otherside of this view, is the other perspective that given the rarity established in fluff, IG should have alot fewer special and heavy weapons in their army.

Things like grenade launcher,s meltaguns, missile launchers, lascannons, sniper rifles, etc are definitely not rare.

That's my point exactly... by the numbers with only 1,000,000 Astartes boltgun in the universe they are rarer than any of those weapons and by virtue of that fact it should be easier to arm space marines exclusively with

Melissia wrote:Things like grenade launcher,s meltaguns, missile launchers, lascannons, sniper rifles....

Fezman wrote:Fluffwise, I think the Guard aren't viewed with as much awe as the Space Marines because the Space Marines are pretty rare and distant, and presumably have a lot of tales told about them, so they take on a near-mythic status. Maybe the Guard are seen as too commonplace and too much a part of daily life, to be particularly remarkable.

Not necessarily true. In the perspective of just how big the Imperium of Man is, think of the absolutely tiny fraction of humanity the Space Marines take up. There are planets out there where the knowledge of Space Marines is on a scale from bedtime fairy-tales to 'what's a Space Marine?' The Guard hold parades and ceremonies. Space Marines might make an appearance in a victory parade, but that's so rare that only a handful of the civilian population of the human race ever get to see one.

And my two-cents, people seem to think that the Guard are under-equipped kamikaze troops compared to the Space Marines. Fluffwise, they're the true champions of the Imperium, not the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

but the guardsmen outnumber the SMs way more than 12 to one.

Ratbarf wrote:The largest most powerful army in the world would stop giving organised resistance if you killed everyone above the rank of Colonel. Did you pacify the area that that army was defending? Hell no, what you did do is remove it's ability to fight as a coherent force, the only thing left to do if you want to pacify it is mop up...

...I think the Space Marines would win, I feel they would kill the important people, and then leave the now leaderless armies to wither on the vine. Occasionally coming back and pruning every so often when it seems they've found a new leader.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. Myself, I'm of the opposite opinion. The reason why Astartes are so good at what they do is because the enemy do not expect a small strike force to land in a pod, deploy, complete their objective & withdraw. The Imperial Guard, however, knows how the Astartes deploy into battle as they have to work & co-ordinate with them so the surprise element the Astartes would normally enjoy is lost, especially as the commanding officers will be in the midst of an army, most likely with their own personal guard of the hardest & toughest that the Guard can throw up - imagine all the nasties they'll have; plasma weapons, melta weapons, hellguns, maybe even a looted power weapon. They might even carry more exotic weapons such as bolters or xenos technology. All of these weapons would be in the hands of men & women who have seen more than their fair share of combat and then some. Next we'll imagine the commander is in some form of fortification - maybe a command bunker or garrisoned building - the Astartes can't just land their pod in the middle of a bunker or building - on a bunker they'd be in plain view for all the Guardsmen around to shoot at them, or plummeting through a building could bring the whole structure down on the Marines as they disembark - they're not immune to several tons of plasteel falling from 5/6 levels up.

So they could teleport in. Ah, but here's the nub with that. Only those in Tactical Dreadnaught can teleport in & be able to react immediately. Those in Power Armour have to wait for their suits to reboot - the systems shut down during teleportation because of the massive amount of energy that surges over the Astartes to transport them instantaneously. So the Astartes appear, in their power armour, inside the bunker and the Guard commander legs it, leaving the Astartes, once their Power Armour has 'rebooted' to fight their way through the labyrinth confines of corridors, dealing with all the nasty surprises the Guard can set as they retreat - bunker corridors are never straight to create problems for attackers - allow for placement of traps, explosives, mines - stuff to make the Astartes lives hell.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much. Be a little bit of confusion, short lived, but they'll recover quickly as the next man in line steps up, but on a ground-level the officers & Guardsmen know what to do. Take the Death Korp, for example. All of the officers, literally all, come up from the ranks. To survive in the Death Korp that long they become pretty good at what they do. On top of that competance is the psychology of the Death Korp. Like the Astartes they know no fear. To die is to help repay the blood debt owed for their planets transgressions in m40 and as such they willingly go to their deaths and will hold on and fight back no matter how dire the situation. Death Korp are also starting to become a significant part of the Guard, in terms of how many regiments they raise each year as a tithe (as many as the Administratum & Departmento Munitorum will allow*) for just one planet, let alone compared to the tithe of many whole sectors!

The big achilles heel of the Astartes is a massive weakness - they do not have the numbers for prolonged warfare, nor can they replace losses quickly. The Astartes could wipe out an entire Guard army but the cost would be enormous for them. For each Guardsman they kill, hundreds more humans will be inducted into the Guard. Where a Guard regiment is destroyed, many, many more will be raised. It's a war the Astartes could never hope to win. The Guard could take over the Astartes homeworlds, their recruiting worlds & cut the Astartes off from their limited sources of recruits without ever worrying about being stretched thin. For every time the Astartes attack the Guard they will lose battle-brothers. The mass of combat experience & knowledge lost with each death would not be easy or quick to replace. In the end they would just wither away and be of no use to anyone.

*Which, considering that Krieg churns out nothing but fearless Korpsmen, is rather impressive. They're the only known case of the Adeptus Mechanicus & BIologicus allowing the use of the vitae-womb to accelerate the birth-rate - it's never been set in stone what this is but it allows Krieg to essentially create millions of Krieg humans that can be raised & turned into fearless soldiers. There is an edict from Terra which basically says if Krieg needs it to produce soldiers, Krieg gets it, no obstructions or questions asked.

Serder wrote:

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:basic guardsmen have literally no chance to take down a Marine alone

In fact, BL books have depicted poisoned crossbows killing marines, nevermind deadly weapons of futuristic warfare.

To be fair, it was at least a dozen poisoned crossbow bolts to the face and several more between armour plates that brought the chaos marine down.

but the guardsmen outnumber the SMs way more than 12 to one.

actually, it was about 40 nihtgane (sp?) and 12 guardsmen against 5 chaos IIRC, which is around 12 to one.

my point was not that the marines were weak being taken out by guard, but that they were stronger than mel made them out to be.

Kaldor wrote:

Thats not the point of Astartes. If there were fifty Lord Generals operating in an area, they'd teleport into 49 of their HQ bunkers, then teleport out and ask the last guy if he'd like to surrender now.

That's assuming they know where said bunkers are (it seems like most of the time the Marines show up they just magically know the exact positions of the enemy commanders and the entire enemy order of battle without any sort of intelligence apparatus, in real life that's an incredibly rare thing to have even with excellent intelligence) that the anti-orbital defenses, anti-aircraft networks, Imperial Navy, jamming fields, etc aren't any obstacle, and that they're able to teleport with startling precision right on top of the IG commanders.

Does not work that way much of the time. This is a huge part of they Space Marines don't make much sense. They need to enact exactly these sorts of missions, which many people just sort of handwave "well of course they just teleport in and decapitate the enemy command structure!".

That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory.

The Navy would crush the Astartes in space, but if they didn't there would be nothing the IG could do to stop the Astartes, despite their overwhelming military advantages.

Again, only assuming the above things are true. If they can't magically strike at command centers, and if such actions don't produce immediate command breakdown, the marines don't win. Given how many stories we have of SM's simply acting as heavy infantry and assaulting enemy positions from the front, storming hive cities, and the like, we know they can't always do this. If the Astartes would have to fight even a handful battles like that on Vraks, where orbital assault was impossible and in fact no Space Marines at the outset would even attempt to retake Vraks (and in fact a third of the Dark Angels chapter died on the world and they were engaged nowhere near the main battle lines for a very brief period of time), a fairly ho-hum Munitorum storage world, they'd be annihilated while the IG wouldn't even notice the ammunition expenditure.

It hasn't been covered but I'd say its a safe assumption that marine scanners/sensors are more sophisticated than those of the standard Imperial Navy ship. That doesn't solve all the issues, but it'd help.

In a realistic setting Marines would rarely participate in large scale warfare without outside assistance.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The Imperial Guard, however, knows how the Astartes deploy into battle as they have to work & co-ordinate with them so the surprise element the Astartes would normally enjoy is lost....

This is the only part of your assessment I disagree with. Some Imperial Guard commanders who had experiance fighting alongside Space Marines would know, but not all. Space marines have an ethos of being angelic, partially because normal humans don't know all that much about them. I have no doubt the Imperial Guard might have written accounts of the basics of how Space Marines operate, but with the paranoid nature of the Imperiums bureaucracy how widely is that information going to be distributed?-Not widely at all.

My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

shrike wrote:my point was not that the marines were weak being taken out by guard, but that they were stronger than mel made them out to be.

No they weren't.

You're overreacting thinking I'm saying Marines are weak.

Marines taking a crossbow bolt to the brain are about as likely to die as humans taking one to the brain, there's really nothing in the Marine biology that makes their brain physically tougher than a human's.

And lasguns are far, far better than crossbow bolts. Power armor mitigates this quite a bit, I think we all agree, but nowhere near entirely-- there's always weak spots, and sometimes the armor is simply so stressed out that it cannot properly protect the marine (for example, if it's already taken a lot of hits to begin with).

Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

You're omitting lots about the Guard:

1) The Guard have transport aircraft for their armored ground vehicles - the Valkyrie Sky Talon.
2) The Guard can certainly fly in supplies.
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
5) The Guard can sneak in entire light-infantry regiments.
6) Granted, the Guard cannot teleport.
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.
8) You're right, they can't teleport. But I contest the advantage this provides.
9) To assert that Valkyries are rare is flawed - there are more Valkyries in the Imperium than there are Space Marines.
10) The entirety of some of those "cumbersome formations" ARE scouts. See any light infantry regiment ever.

Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

aka_mythos wrote:This is the only part of your assessment I disagree with. Some Imperial Guard commanders who had experiance fighting alongside Space Marines would know, but not all. Space marines have an ethos of being angelic, partially because normal humans don't know all that much about them. I have no doubt the Imperial Guard might have written accounts of the basics of how Space Marines operate, but with the paranoid nature of the Imperiums bureaucracy how widely is that information going to be distributed?-Not widely at all.

I take your point there, but humans learn very quickly. Do something once and we'll know to expect that possibility in the future. That's a massive dink in the Astartes flexbility, their massive surprise element gone. Plus humans do know that these 'angelic' beings descend from skies like fireballs from the heaven, striking down into the ground like meterorites to bring death to the Emperor's foes... actually on that basis alone I would expect humans to expect them to do that.

My additional assessment of the Space Marines is that they would be far more mobile than most any IG army as Space Marines unlike IG would be able to fly in on transports carrying armored ground vehicles... while the ability to fly equipment in and out reduces significantly supply lines. SM's greatest strength is their flexibility... they can use drop pods, fly in on Thunderhawks or jump out with jump packs, sneak in scouts, or teleport... meanwhile IG don't have drop pods and can't teleport, most don't even have the likes of Valkyries, most formations are too combersome to have dedicated scouts.

Of course the Guard have dedicated scouts - reconnaissance companies/battalions/regiments & light infantry, sentinels, salamanders, just for a couple of examples. You can't blunder around with an army or large formation without some dedicated feelers out to find the enemy, otherwise you're just setting yourself up for defeat and the Tactica Imperium no doubt has whole sections given over to scouting & use of reconnaissance/intelligence gathering units (the Uplifting Primer has a whole bit on scouting, so if Guardsmen have something to tell them about it, almost all Tactica Imperium tomes -must- do as it's one of the most basic elements of soldiering). Plus there are the flyers of the Imperial Navy - planes have been used in our timeline to gather intelligence & perform reconnaissance roles since 1914, a scant 10 years after the first flight! Balloons were being used for that role back in the 1860s, no earlier, mid-late c18. The Guard will have many, many elements given over to finding where the enemy is, their strength & the lay of the land for the Guards advantage for battle.

There are many Guard units out there which could be considered to be very flexible in their approach to warfare. Airborne Guard regiments, as a quick example, or rough rider regiments. They can manouver quickly & effectively to gain the upper hand through mobility. Armoured/mechanised regiments can do much the same. The problem the Astartes have is that once they're on the ground their Thunderhawks are one of their very few lifelines. The Guard will have it's logistics working smoothly, with food, ammunition & equipment, hopefully, readily available. Their supply lines will extend or contract depending on the strategic situation & will be very well guarded. The Astartes do not have that luxury. They can digest almost any foodstuff, true, but their weapons do not have unlimited ammunition, nor can they replace their losses easily/have many reinforcements to call in. If their Thunderhawks are shot down by, for example, Lightning fighters or Hydra flak platforms, the Astartes will frankly be stranded. Their mobility is mostly lost, their supply lines cut and an incredibly important Astartes vehicle has been lost that can not be easily replaced. Yes the Astartes will have ways of fighting on, they will be stuck, unless they can be teleported out.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
My additional assessment of the Space Marines ....

First if you're going to quote me, fix your citation.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
You're omitting lots about the Guard:

1) The Guard have transport aircraft for their armored ground vehicles - the Valkyrie Sky Talon.
2) The Guard can certainly fly in supplies.
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
5) The Guard can sneak in entire light-infantry regiments.
6) Granted, the Guard cannot teleport.
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.
8) You're right, they can't teleport. But I contest the advantage this provides.
9) To assert that Valkyries are rare is flawed - there are more Valkyries in the Imperium than there are Space Marines.
10) The entirety of some of those "cumbersome formations" ARE scouts. See any light infantry regiment ever.

Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

I don't deny it. SM would be realistically limited. I'm arguing both sides, simply saying they have an advantage that makes them a very specialized force, incapable of large scale warfare but still significantly capable of exacting extreme damage on an enemy. I'm thinking Power Armored Navy Seal on steroids.

Melissia wrote:
Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

I'm not saying this makes them smarter, but space marines, will tend to have had more training and experiance and their ability to live nearly indefinitely means a marine veterans might have seen 2 or 3 times what an IG veteran saw in a life time of fighting.

I tend not to believe Sisters of Battle having accomplished as much... rather at least not in the same way. You have to ignore a lot of distinctions to come to a 1-1 comparison and even then aren't the SoB even less common than marines?

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

And now for my *deft* counter:

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

aka_mythos wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Now for my assertions against the Space Marines:
1) Outnumbered on a scale not seen ever period.
2) Outgunned on a scale not seen ever period.
3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.
4) Entire regiments of armored vehicles which are superior to their outnumbered Marine counterparts.
5) Actual artillery support (lol Whirlwind).
6) Actual naval support (Marauder bombers).
7) Actual superheavies. While the regular IG tanks outgun and outnumber their Marine counterparts, this just gets hilarious.

I don't deny it. SM would be realistically limited. I'm arguing both sides, simply saying they have an advantage that makes them a very specialized force, incapable of large scale warfare but still significantly capable of exacting extreme damage on an enemy. I'm thinking Power Armored Navy Seal on steroids.

A Power Armored Navy Seal is no match for a Main Battle Tank. And in this engagement, the Main Battle Tanks by themselves outnumber the Power Armored Navy Seals.

aka_mythos wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Marines are stronger and tougher than humans (but not smarter or more agile, that's just non-fluffy fanwank-- there is nothing unique to Astartes that makes them smarter or more agile than humans), but that only goes so far. Orks are tougher than Space Marines and the Imperial Guard deals with them all the time. It's the power armor that does the greatest good for Space Marines outside of hand to hand combat, which is why Sisters of Battle, with their own power armor, are able to accomplish feats almost on par with the Astartes.

I'm not saying this makes them smarter, but space marines, will tend to have had more training and experiance and their ability to live nearly indefinitely means a marine veterans might have seen 2 or 3 times what an IG veteran saw in a life time of fighting.

I tend not to believe Sisters of Battle having accomplished as much... rather at least not in the same way. You have to ignore a lot of distinctions to come to a 1-1 comparison and even then aren't the SoB even less common than marines?

Unfortunately, the majority of this "experience" comes from fighting Xenos, Heretics, and Daemons. None of these threats are as nearly as powerful or well-organized and equipped as the Imperial Guard.

Heretics are often made of PDF forces that got corrupted and have things like predator tanks and other IG equipment(1st example is the SW first omnibus). Heretics are the number one foe of the IoM IMHO. So a lot of Sm chapters do have experience versus IG like forces. Other example are the blood pact or Sons of Seth from the gaunt ghost series, I'm pretty sure the SMs are fighting them too in the crusade since Macaroth does have SM chapters under his command for the crusade.

Also, something that we all seem to have forgotten, SMs jump infantry could do real damage vs IGs gun line. Melta bombs would blow up their tanks and a Space amrines falling right into the guard infantry would spread confusion and broke their morale while the rest of the SMs charge on foot/in tanks.

Serder wrote:Heretics are often made of PDF forces that got corrupted and have things like predator tanks and other IG equipment(1st example is the SW first omnibus). Heretics are the number one foe of the IoM IMHO. So a lot of Sm chapters do have experience versus IG like forces. Other example are the blood pact or Sons of Seth from the gaunt ghost series, I'm pretty sure the SMs are fighting them too in the crusade since Macaroth does have SM chapters under his command for the crusade.

Also, something that we all seem to have forgotten, SMs jump infantry could do real damage vs IGs gun line. Melta bombs would blow up their tanks and a Space amrines falling right into the guard infantry would spread confusion and broke their morale while the rest of the SMs charge on foot/in tanks.

PDFs are nowhere near the capabilities of the Imperial Guard. It's like comparing a local militia to the United States Army. Everyone you've listed are not even close - Blood Pact get murdered by light-infantry guard (Tanith) while themselves being heavy infantry. So do the Sons of Seth.

If the Guard can murder them easily, they are not on par with Guard.

SM Jump Infantry won't live to make it to the gun line if you believe the fluff. Against dropping from space, an Imperial Air Defense Regiment (2nd Brimlock Sky Wardens) opposed a drop and achieved a Kill Ratio of 99,999 to 1. Hardly losses the Space Marines can afford. There are thousands (if not millions) of these regiments in the Imperial Guard.

As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire companies of Leman Russes).

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

In all honesty, it's likely there are several hundred if not several thousand Armored Regiments for every single Land Raider. Given that there are "billions" of IG regiments, even if just 1% of those are armored regiments, that means there are millions of armored regiments, each composed of several hundred Leman Russ tanks. Given that Land Raiders are rare machines even amongst the Astartes, we can probably consider it safe to say that even if 10,000 Land raiders existed, lets say a rather * very* generous 10 Land Raiders per Chapter, they'd still be facing hundreds of Leman Russ tanks each.

Not including of course Hellhounds+variants, artillery vehicles like Basilisks, Chimeras, Hydra Flak tanks, etc. For every vehicle the Astartes fields they're likely facing several thousand IFV's,artillery units,battle tanks, medium tanks, etc from the Imperial Guard, most of which can sport heavier armor and heavier guns than their equivalent Space Marine counterparts.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

They wouldn't even register And that's sorta the problem with the setting. GW has created far too large a gulf in their numbers.

When there is several million guardsmen for each and every Space Marine, their importance and purpose rapidly becomes questionable and their existence becomes irrelevant when scrutinized.

The size of the IG makes sense given the stated size of the Imperium, in fact if anything it may be relatively under-mobilized even relative to modern day earth, much less a total-war galactic theocracy. It's the size of the Adeptus Astartes that really need to be bumped up to make any sort of sense.

Yes, the SM are stretched far and thin and "There are less than one space marine per world" - AoBR starter booklet

And the Sisters numbers make even less sense, especially if GW is trying to go with the "light power armor" bullgak (which you would think would let them field Sisters in numbers GREATER than that of the Marines, not arguably less)..

Hammer of the Emperor vs. The Surgical Blades of the Emperor.

Rock Vs. Scissors.

Hmmm.

Ratbarf wrote:Oh man, laughed soo hard.

What I think a lot of people are missing here however is the different styles of warfare that the Guard and Space Marines use. Space Marines are much more, "We're going to outflank your entire army/insert a bunch of strike teams, and proceed to kill all of your officers from the rank of General up." When Space Marines fight against human non astartes armies they go for the head of the snake. The largest most powerful army in the world would stop giving organised resistance if you killed everyone above the rank of Colonel. Did you pacify the area that that army was defending? Hell no, what you did do is remove it's ability to fight as a coherent force, the only thing left to do if you want to pacify it is mop up.

The Guard on the other hand is more conventional military, "We might attempt to take out all of your leaders at once, but at the same time we're going to attempt to knock you off the ground you're holding and pacify the entire area."

Actually defeating an army does not take large numbers of troops, pacification on the other hand requires a certain number of troops with regards to the population and area of the place you are attempting to pacify.

I think the Space Marines would win, I feel they would kill the important people, and then leave the now leaderless armies to wither on the vine. Occasionally coming back and pruning every so often when it seems they've found a new leader.

That's nice and all but there are probably more Colonels of the Imperial Guard than there are Marines...
The Imperial Guard have such an advantage in number that it's literally impossible for the Marines to win...

KplKeegan wrote:Rock Vs. Scissors.

More like ice sculpture with a cannon on it, versus fifty people throwing hammers at it.

Melissia wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Rock Vs. Scissors.

More like ice sculpture with a cannon on it, versus fifty people throwing hammers at it.

But it's literally what the battle would be. Rock versus a Scissor. No matter where the scissor stabs, the rock is still there. No matter the number of strikes, the rock is still there. No matter the cutting edge of the blade or if the metal is made of titanium, the rock is still there.

[wrong threaaaaad]

[no need to incriminate Melissa ]

Wrong thread, Melissa. But I get your point

Wheeeewwwwwps.

I'll edit that away.

Chaps & Chapettes if you're going to quote, please make sure you are quoting the correct person. aka_mytho's comment has been quoted with my handle. It only takes two moments to check who you are quoting & the content.

I pointed out the same thing.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

Just because someone is a master of none, doesn't mean they can't be above average in all. Flexibility means always having some degree of capacity where you need it when you need it. Using rock-paper-scissors as an analogy... If we look at the IG most companies are very specialized, in effect an IG formation is a rock, paper, or scissor formation... like an armored company, an airborne company, or a light infantry company. While being a jack of all trades means mastering none, it also means you are never outright defeated. Space Marines are always a rock, paper, and scissor... or they're like duct tape... meaning the battle they fight aren't going to be dictated by the enemies doctrine as much as it will be dictated only by the enemies ability to sufficiently and adequately counter all three facets at once. Imperial Guard size is as much a disadvantage as it is an an advantage. To counter a Space Marines force, and adequately bring to the fight elements to defeat all three facets requires a minimum of 3 distinct IG companies not just being on a planet but being in the vicinity of each other, which may or may not come from different planets with different levels of experience working together, all regardless of the size of the space marine formation. Proximity of those IG companies is a matter of luck because smaller size and complete mobility means SM would more often get to choose their battlefield. Space Marines will be overwhelmed, but they have the greater ability to avoid those situations.

People always talk about generalization as disadvantage, because most equate mastery to victory; what's often forgotten is that just like rock-paper-scissors mastery means inadequacy 2/3 of the time... since 1/3 of the time you completely lose, 1/3 of the time you stalemate. When one has scarce resources, generalization trumps specialization, and avoids turning your force into a Maginot line, frozen in place by its particular inadequacy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

1-4, 7,9) Who said it was all guard in one place?-No ones has been that specific. In the least I haven't been. I've been speaking in general about the operations of space marines fighting on a given planet. Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers.

5,10) The Space Marine as an army could simply leave remove all their assets from a battlezone to evade those scout elements redeploying those forces where they aren't, effectually negating them.

7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Well what do you like more IG or SM? They both compliment each other, alone they are strong, together they are invulnerable.

aka_mythos wrote:I pointed out the same thing.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
Well I think you're confusing things... my point was that any Space Marine chapter can do all of those things, and that the flexibility of being a swiss army knife is their advantage.

Addressing 1-4, 7, 9) As I stated SM would be more mobile than "MOST" Imperial Guard, since very few Imperial Guard have permenant access to Valkyries and by extension Sky Talons, this is what make the Elysian Guard next to unique. The Imperial Navy is a different issue since Valkyries are piloted and operated by the Imperial Navy on assignment to an Imperial Guard unit. If we want to bring the Imperial Navy into the mix most SM are blasted before they even get near enough to a planet to make planet fall; so that bits moot.

Addressing 5, 10)... Any space marine chapter can choose to sneak in scouts, but not all Imperial Guard regiments can. Imperial Guard regiments are a jigsaw puzzle of specialized formation that an Imperial General can slap together to get a diverse force capable of doing a variaty of things, but not all elements are capable of every task. Any space marine given their training could theoretically don scout armor and act as a scout. That can't be said of every guardsmen.

Addressing 7)... Ignoring the previously stated issues with reliance on Valkyries... the advantage of a drop pod over a Valkyrie is that a Valkyrie though VTOL requires an aerdynamically constrained atmospheric entry while a drop pod is a guided balistic drop. Valkyries even with their guidance would be limited much more drastically by the location of their launching ship in entering the atmosphere and the course they take would be limited by atmospheric entry. If space marines want that type of entry they have the additional option of Thunderhawks and in some case craft similar to the Stormraven.

Addressing 6,8) I think teleporting, the ability to completely ignores lines of defense is by far their greatest advantage. It means, if I have good enough coordinates, it doesn't matter how many guns are between point "A" and point "B".

Flexibility isn't always good. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. For example, Marine tanks are more flexible as to what formation they take than the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, this means that they have to be constructed in a way so that a primarily infantry-led force can maintain them. This means they have a lighter chassis, which necessitates lighter armor and a lighter gun. The Leman Russ, while less flexible in its ginormous armored regiments, is on a heavy chassis with much more armor and firepower.

Just because someone is a master of none, doesn't mean they can't be above average in all. Flexibility means always having some degree of capacity where you need it when you need it. Using rock-paper-scissors as an analogy... If we look at the IG most companies are very specialized, in effect an IG formation is a rock, paper, or scissor formation... like an armored company, an airborne company, or a light infantry company. While being a jack of all trades means mastering none, it also means you are never outright defeated. Space Marines are always a rock, paper, and scissor... or they're like duct tape... meaning the battle they fight aren't going to be dictated by the enemies doctrine as much as it will be dictated only by the enemies ability to sufficiently and adequately counter all three facets at once. Imperial Guard size is as much a disadvantage as it is an an advantage. To counter a Space Marines force, and adequately bring to the fight elements to defeat all three facets requires a minimum of 3 distinct IG companies not just being on a planet but being in the vicinity of each other, which may or may not come from different planets with different levels of experience working together, all regardless of the size of the space marine formation. Proximity of those IG companies is a matter of luck because smaller size and complete mobility means SM would more often get to choose their battlefield. Space Marines will be overwhelmed, but they have the greater ability to avoid those situations.

People always talk about generalization as disadvantage, because most equate mastery to victory; what's often forgotten is that just like rock-paper-scissors mastery means inadequacy 2/3 of the time... since 1/3 of the time you completely lose, 1/3 of the time you stalemate. When one has scarce resources, generalization trumps specialization, and avoids turning your force into a Maginot line, frozen in place by its particular inadequacy.

Unfortunately, when you're outnumbered by people who have a mastery in every single art that you're merely above average in, you're in deep gak.

The IG Infantry Regiments are masters of infantry warfare. They will WTF pwn any Space Marine infantry forces. The IG Armored Regiments are masters of armored warfare; they will WTF pwn any Space Marine armored assets. Since the two are mutually supporting, then they will WTF pwn both Space Marine infantry and armored forces.

IG forces are always, without question, mixed. It does not come down to "luck" whether or not those three companies are near eachother. It comes down to doctrinal practice, and the Guard are nothing if not doctrinally adherent.

aka_mythos wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4,7,9) Provided that this is supposedly all the guard ever in one place, I think that any assigned-directly-to-regiment Naval assets will probably come along. This doesn't mean that the entire Imperial Navy comes along, though. The reason I say this is that many regiments would be crippled without the support of those aircraft, which is why the aircraft are put at the disposal of the ground forces.

5,10) You're right, but fortunately this is all the regiments in one place under a centralized command. No doubt the scout regiments will be doing their thing within the greater framework of the army. Which means that, while a Volpone Blueblood heavy-infantry regiment may not be able to scout, they will certainly be given attached resources who can.

7) In this case, you're right, the drop pod is marginally superior. I would contest, though, that the sheer number of available deployment aircraft available to the Guard would compensate. Additionally, the Valkyrie can take off and move troops to somewhere else - when Marines drop in with a pod, more marine forces would have to be committed to extract them. So drop-pod deployment isn't always good, either.

1-4, 7,9) Who said it was all guard in one place?-No ones has been that specific. Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers.

5,10) The Space Marine as an army could simply leave remove all their assets from a battlezone to evade those scout elements redeploying those forces where they aren't, effectually negating them.

7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

7) There's a couple of problems assuming drop pods:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible. It just so happens that the way the Astartes accomplish this is through planetary insersion. For the Guard, this isn't so much the case. Rather it is bringing in Valkyries to transport troops from one area to another. This is also where one of the flaws of the Astartes battle plan. Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

It's the job they're specifically designed to do. They'd get it done, and make it look easy. If they need to use Terminators, then thats what they'd do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much.

It's not the confusion that is the point. It's the futility and fear of fighting an enemy who cannot be brought to battle, and who can strike directly at the commanding elements. Those very same commanding elements would quickly turn traitor or simply surrender when faced with such a situation. Maybe not all of them, but there'd be enough 'mere mortal' commanders in the bunch to make it a significant number.

Vaktathi wrote:That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory

They are ignored, but the end result is often remarked upon, so we need to insert some handwavium to make it work. One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.

Valkyries are not space-worthy. They have an operational ceiling of 13kms and cannot deploy from orbit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:]3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.

*sigh*

If the IG want to get somewhere, they need to land massive amounts of resources. They need to build an airfield for their aircraft, land entire barracks, and all the logistical gubbins required to support billions of guardsmen, then move all that stuff to their target area. Granted, they can deploy close-to or on-to their target initially, but any and all subsequent targets must be walked to.

Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Marines would never try to manuever on the ground, so any comparison to the IG is wasted.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

Kaldor wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:I'm not saying it would be impossible to take out the commanders, just a lot harder than people are making it out to be. It's not so easy as just waltzing in, doing the job with nobody interfering at all and then getting out without a problem.

It's the job they're specifically designed to do. They'd get it done, and make it look easy. If they need to use Terminators, then thats what they'd do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:As for the result of taking out the commanders? With some Guard armies that just won't do much.

It's not the confusion that is the point. It's the futility and fear of fighting an enemy who cannot be brought to battle, and who can strike directly at the commanding elements. Those very same commanding elements would quickly turn traitor or simply surrender when faced with such a situation. Maybe not all of them, but there'd be enough 'mere mortal' commanders in the bunch to make it a significant number.

Vaktathi wrote:That's requires an insane amount of information and intelligence, not to mention perfect coordination and timing, and relies on an enemy having pretty much no way to interfere with said deployment. In the case of most SM fluff, these things are pretty much all just ignored entirely. The SM's show up, instantly know exactly where their enemies are and their weakspots, and face no significant obstacles to simply showing up in the middle of their likely most fortified locations and producing magnificent victory

They are ignored, but the end result is often remarked upon, so we need to insert some handwavium to make it work. One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.

Valkyries are not space-worthy. They have an operational ceiling of 13kms and cannot deploy from orbit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:]3) Maneuvering capabilities are roughly equal, with a slight advantage to the Guard just because their physical existence can cover more ground than the Marines'.

*sigh*

If the IG want to get somewhere, they need to land massive amounts of resources. They need to build an airfield for their aircraft, land entire barracks, and all the logistical gubbins required to support billions of guardsmen, then move all that stuff to their target area. Granted, they can deploy close-to or on-to their target initially, but any and all subsequent targets must be walked to.

Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Marines would never try to manuever on the ground, so any comparison to the IG is wasted.

Melissia wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:As far as the ground units go, good luck charging an Imperial gunline with Rhinos and Razorbacks, and even Land Raiders. (It is likely that there are fewer Land Raiders than their are entire battalions of Leman Russes).

Fixed.

Let's face it, one million space marines quite simply could not defeat the uncounted trillions of guardsmen, their billions of tanks and artillery pieces,a nd their millions of superheavy tanks.

Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

In fact, there'd be so much anti-air fire, the Marines would never even make it to the ground in the first place.

The Imperial Guard outnumber and outgun the Marines THAT much.

Unit1126PLL wrote:You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

It is, but it's the only way the scenario makes any sense. Really, whoever wins in space will win on the ground. In order to even have a battle between IG and Marines we need to assume that somehow, the Marines have won in space and weren't just vaporized by the Navy.

Which would have been the case.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

They wouldn't need to survive more than five minutes. Thats the point. They just need to convince the IG to surrender. And if they refuse to surrender, well, each Battlebarge carries a cluster of exterminatus class weapons.

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

Several (as in, like, hundreds) of layers of guardsmen I might add.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:You know, providing the Marines with orbital support and removing the same from the Guard is a little one-sided in a sci-fi setting.

It is, but it's the only way the scenario makes any sense. Really, whoever wins in space will win on the ground. In order to even have a battle between IG and Marines we need to assume that somehow, the Marines have won in space and weren't just vaporized by the Navy.

Which would have been the case.

As for the rest of your arguments, you don't seem to understand.

The hard part for marines isn't *getting* into combat. It's surviving longer than an hour against unheard of numbers with very good quality training, excellent equipment, and a well-forged organization.

They wouldn't need to survive more than five minutes. Thats the point. They just need to convince the IG to surrender. And if they refuse to surrender, well, each Battlebarge carries a cluster of exterminatus class weapons.

So your plan is:
1) Use orbital assets against a ground-exclusive force
2) Claim victory

Well done lad! Maybe next time you can kick a tiny puppy and show it who's the real Space Marine!

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

So ask yourself, why would they land? What could they achieve? Really think about how the Astartes would win. Think about what 'winning' means. They don't need to kill the enemy, they don't need to capture his troops, drive him off certain parts of the planet, or capture ground. If they have nothing to gain by putting boots on the ground, then the IG have nothing to gain by defending it.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Why would they be charging a defended IG position in the first place? Just to get somewhere? Why? They deploy from space, directly to their desired target.

Unless those billions of tanks are in the upper atmosphere, packed chasis to chasis while they hover above the ground, in order to provide a physical barrier to drop pods and Thawks, and simultaneously projecting a teleport proof barrier, then those billions of tanks are utterly worthless.

This garbage is just that-- garbage.

If one were to put all the Guardsmen in the Imperium on a single planet, including all equipment and tanks...

... the Astartes would not be able to finda place to land where they were not landing on Guardsmen.

It doesn't matter where the Marines land. They're dead.

So ask yourself, why would they land? What could they achieve? Really think about how the Astartes would win. Think about what 'winning' means. They don't need to kill the enemy, they don't need to capture his troops, drive him off certain parts of the planet, or capture ground. If they have nothing to gain by putting boots on the ground, then the IG have nothing to gain by defending it.

Because this is a versus thread, and it's assumed that both sides will fight? Otherwise the thread is pointless?

Kaldor wrote:So ask yourself, why would they land?

Because that's the scenario in the original post.

Space Marines aren't Batman. They make tactical and strategic mistakes all the damn time.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well done lad! Maybe next time you can kick a tiny puppy and show it who's the real Space Marine!

I'm reminded of a quote from Pirates of the Caribbean

"In a fair fight I'd kill you"

"Well thats not much incentive for me to fight fair, is it?"

It may not be 'tough' but it's effective. Winning is what matters, nothing else.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Who said the Adeptus Astartes were attacking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not only that, whos to say the Adeptus Astarted won't just Virus bomb the entire planet?

Brother Thomas wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if a conflict like this ever jumped off and every loyalist chapter banded together against the IG the chances of the Space Marines winning are still pretty low.
In light of this, how come the IG are not as respected as the astartes? I mean in my opinion if you take away the Guard the IoM is basically done for but if you take away the Space Marines the IoM can still mantain.

The Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers. The imperial guards are dumb grunts. I believe a few chapters of Space Marines could easily defeat the entire imperial guard.

"A few chapters" of Space Marines would be vaporized before they hit the surface of the planet that the Imperial Guard were stationed on simply through sheer amount of fire-- we're talking about billions of anti-aircraft guns, with computer-assisted targeting firing at them. And they'd be utterly incapable of defending said planet if the Guard were attacking.

Who said the Adeptus Astartes were attacking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not only that, whos to say the Adeptus Astarted won't just Virus bomb the entire planet?

Without trying to be rude, but have you read the thread yet?

Negatve, I guess I am just arrogant in my beliefs of the Space Marines

Brother Thomas wrote:Negatve, I guess I am just arrogant in my beliefs of the Space Marines

Arrogant, ingnorant, and not adding anything of value to this discussion. Coming in here and saying the Guards (guards? what?) are dumb grunts is, well, dumb and there is no place for it. So if you are going to post on the topic, first you need to read the thread. Then you need to make thoughtful contributions to the thread.

Thank you.

Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

Marines virus bombing a planet is ludicrously rare to begin with, and if you want to play taht angle, then one can easily simply have an Inquisitor do the same when the Marines are defending, followed by having the Imperial Navy bombard the planet in to ashes.

No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools.

... so do the Imperial Guard.

And Marines frequently do things which are foolish, and certainly there's plenty of depictions of marines as arrogant. And many times where they are both.

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

*willy wonka meme*
So you are an infantry soldier. Tell me about how you know everything about 40k fluff large scale battles.


Back on topic though. If anyone read only a little fluff, you'll see that the Astartes makes a lot of tactical mistakes (specially when their ego is hurt, lol). Those that made close to no tactical mistakes were a couple of primarch (Horus before getting corrupted, Lion was pretty good too (talking tactical not about the Fallen here), Gulliman?, maybe a couple others that just doesnt come to my mind). Let's just say that the Astartes of today are mere copies (and not as strong) as the Astartes of the Heresy and that the primarch were waaaaaaaay better than the Astartes of that time. So the 40k Astartes are not tactical geniuses, they learn tactics just like the guard do, some does live long though and may have more experience than the guards though.

Ignatius wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

\


Look "Sir". I was keeping in civil, There is nothing wrong with debate. If you're going to be a platoon commander in the infantry you need to get tough skin. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Its simply a debate. So relax and enjoy it. Yes I am well aware I am the equivalent of a guardsmen. I wear flak jacket and a Kevlar, and I carry a m16. Not Power armor. If they ever ask for volunteers for a Power armor program though i'll be sure to volunteer.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Get off the butthurt stations. The Adeptus Astartes are far superior tacticians and warriors. I guarantee you that they would win, and coming from a USMC infantryman i feel very strongly huge men with exploding rifle rounds and power armor would annihilate simple guardsmen. So get off your high throne there bud.

Thanks... not

You don't need to come into a topic that has been remarkably calm considering how long it has been going on for and what we are dealing with. No one said they weren't better warriors, and I'm not convinced on the tacticians part. You can't guarantee anything, and I could care less that you are a USMC Infantryman. I'm only a year away from being commissioned as an Army Officer in the Infantry, so I understand the whole military angle you are trying to use. I respect you greatly for your service, and I thank you for it. But please keep this conversation civil. Everything works better that way.

Anyway, you do realize that people like you and I are the equivalent of those "simple guardsmen". Right?

\


Look "Sir". I was keeping in civil, There is nothing wrong with debate. If you're going to be a platoon commander in the infantry you need to get tough skin. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Its simply a debate. So relax and enjoy it. Yes I am well aware I am the equivalent of a guardsmen. I wear flak jacket and a Kevlar, and I carry a m16. Not Power armor. If they ever ask for volunteers for a Power armor program though i'll be sure to volunteer.

You don't call me sir, I haven't been commissioned yet and I am only a Cadet right now. I enjoy debate, as long as it sounds intelligent and well meaning. Notice how my replies have been thought out, and dispite what some liberals would consider verbal abuse, I have been nothing but relaxed and have in fact thank you for both your service and in keeping your civility. Now I would appreciate it if this could be the end of this and we can get back on topic.

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

And here I thought Brother_Coa and Tadashi were the only ones drinking the anointed Bolter Oil...

Space Marines lack numbers. Despite their surgical precision, Chapter Tactics, Codex Tactics, instructional drilling, space-to-ground insertions, Space Marines can't go far unless the enemy their attacking is distracted, which, in most casses, with the Imperial Guard.

Kaldor wrote: Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Not all Space Marines use teleportation. Only the most veteran, Elite units of the Space Marines are reserved the right to teleport into battle, with the aid of a beacon already on the surface. So just saying they can teleport right onto an objective is not telling the whole story.

One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

And yet, somehow the Imperial Augurs and Sensor Nets cannot pick up humongeous Battle Barges from space?

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:No it isn't ridiculous, Space Marines fight to win and are not arrogant fools. Like I said they are tacticians. Secondly no one said the Space Marines were defending a planet either

And here I thought Brother_Coa and Tadashi were the only ones drinking the anointed Bolter Oil...

Space Marines lack numbers. Despite their surgical precision, Chapter Tactics, Codex Tactics, instructional drilling, space-to-ground insertions, Space Marines can't go far unless the enemy their attacking is distracted, which, in most casses, with the Imperial Guard.

Kaldor wrote: Space Marines just Teleport right onto it.

Not all Space Marines use teleportation. Only the most veteran, Elite units of the Space Marines are reserved the right to teleport into battle, with the aid of a beacon already on the surface. So just saying they can teleport right onto an objective is not telling the whole story.

One can assume that there are all kinds of comms trackers and sensory devices on Space Marine ships, not to mention good old local intelligence.

And yet, somehow the Imperial Augurs and Sensor Nets cannot pick up humongeous Battle Barges from space?

not worth my time

Brother Thomas wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Awesome Sauce.

not worth my time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/31.page

Here's the door. Don't let it hit you in the head on your way out.

What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want, When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

Recap main scenario (as some have lost sight of what it is)

Every single Imperial Guardsmen in the Imperium (and all their equipment, vehicales, you name it)

VS>

Every Single Spehess Meherine in the Imperium (along side all their equipment, vehicales etc)

This is a PLANETARY WAR. If you want Space combat go take that up with the boys who fly the space ships. (which is another topic all together, but my 2 cents say the Entire IMperial Navy can wipe away the SPace Marines navy, but thats another discussion all together! so stay on topic!)

You can leave the Battle boats at home. you can have your drop pods and all that alongside thunderhawks and such.

the arena is simple. a planet that is capable of holding everything on either side (which is impossible but lets throw out that variable shall we?) with citys for urban combat, open fields, swamps, jungles etc.



My opinion. The IG wins. they may take heavy losses (which is nearly always expected) but they will win. WIth the sheer firepower of their numberless tanks and infantry they would overwhelm the Space Marines. there are more details (and they have been discussed at length by many.) but still IG will crush the Space Marines.

now... GO!

Okay they can have endless #'s all the want. But the fact of the matter is when an IG see's his best friends gut's displayed all over the floor and a ravaging Space Marine coming at him next... Well lets just say morale is going to be BROKEN. I wouldn't be surprised if the IG just gave up and surrendered. But we all know what happens when people surrender to the space marines Anyhow the Adeptus Astartes have no fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

KplKeegan wrote: Awesome Sauce.

not worth my time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/31.page

Here's the door. Don't let it hit you in the head on your way out.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Brother Thomas wrote:What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want, When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

you seem to have forgotten that most IG regiments also have acess to sniper vairant las (hotshots goes thourgh power armor), lascannons, autocannons, plasmas, meltas, rockte launchers and Leman Russes. Also, the power armor DOES have gaps in which bayonnet can infiltrate. We are not saying that a SM would lose to a guardmen 1v1. But all Sm chapters (1k IIRC) against the billions of IG regiments (aerial, armour, heavy infantry, artillery, light infantry, etc.), the SM would lose because of the sheer number and mass of firepower thrown at them.

Morale might be an issue as said before though. If the Astartes gets into CC, things will get bloody. Now the quesiton is how does the Lord general sees Firendly fire, because entangling Sms in CC then firing Earthshaker rounds on that position will anihilate the Astartes. Lascannons will get trough Land raiders, Banebaldes > LandRaiders. A couple of Leman Russes > Land Raiders.

We are saying the SMs would give heavy casualties to the guards, BUT, in comparison to the trilions of guardsmen, even if the SMs kills 10 billions of them, sheer weight will win the fight.

How ever, if the Astartes manages to cut the Head of the command chain, chances are the IGs won't be able to coordinate well enough and could manage to cripple the IGs and win an attrition war using guerilla like tactics (always hitting at the spot where the IGs are the weakest)

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

SM are a fully integrated command structure, where they have their own ships, their own tactical airlift, and a variety of technologies IG do not. IG are dependent on the Imperial Navy and its separate and distinct bureaucracy. The IG are a dedicated ground army and are a fully separable entity from the Imperial Navy.

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

What do you know about tactics?

Based on the rant following that statement? About as much as you.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Amazing. You were the one who declared

not worth my time

and somehow I can't win? This is like debating with a three year old.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

Still I disagree. You seem to think the Astartes need to come up close and savagely kill there opponent. That is not the case. The Space Marines have the same advanced weapons and are MUCH more capable of using them. You have to think its not going to be an all out war. No that is not the case. Its a war of attrition, of maneuvering and strategy. In the end the Space Marines can go longer without food, water, sleep and many other things. Eventually the IG's are going to get fatigued beyond reckoning. There are so many factors that go into the Astartes winning it is incredible.


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KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

Hah Funny, They would both be praying to the emperor, but however when death is inches away, i guarantee the last thing on the mind of the guardsmen is the emperor. Its of him defecating his pants and being slain by a savage trained cannibalistic warrior, either from afar with there enhanced vision and a bolter, or up close with a combat blade to there chest


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AH yes, As my fellow Astartes supporter said this is IG Vs Adeptus Astartes. I believe the Space Marines are self relying, and the Guardsmen rely on the navy for logistical support. Hm Interesting, What are those billions of guardsmen going to do with no food or water or even ammunition?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace.

But when an Imperial Guardsmen knows fear, stares it in the face, and manages to overcome it with the Lasgun in his hands and a prayer to the Emperor on his lips takes more tenacity, character, and will than having it surgically removed from your brain like the Space Marines do.

What do you know about tactics?

Based on the rant following that statement? About as much as you.

Interesting, You cannot even win a verbal debate and you expect your weak IG to win. Mind you they are noble in nature, just no match to the Astartes

Amazing. You were the one who declared

not worth my time

and somehow I can't win? This is like debating with a three year old.

Haha too funny, it is all too clear you are defeated and don't know what to say, because of the fact that you have come to personal blows as your only line of defense

Brother Thomas wrote:Still I disagree. You seem to think the Astartes need to come up close and savagely kill there opponent. That is not the case. The Space Marines have the same advanced weapons and are MUCH more capable of using them. You have to think its not going to be an all out war. No that is not the case. Its a war of attrition, of maneuvering and strategy. In the end the Space Marines can go longer without food, water, sleep and many other things. Eventually the IG's are going to get fatigued beyond reckoning. There are so many factors that go into the Astartes winning it is incredible.

What are you talking about?... you even quoted me saying:

me wrote:First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Or how about when I said:

me wrote:I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Sounds like we're saying a lot of the same things.

Great minds think alike?


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k i'm out. I have work balls early. I'll be back tomorrow to argue till the end!!

Eat the marines?

Frazzled wrote:Eat the marines?

There are enough guardsmen to do that...
Like i have said numerous times...
There are enough Guardsmen to literally crush (As in through weight, like a big flak armoured squishy human boulder) every single Space Marine...
That's without firing a shot and simply throwing the bodies on them...
Make them fight the marines and the marines are even more screwed.
Give them guns, tanks, artillery, leaders, and air support.
The marines don't stand a chance.

Not to mention the fact that the marines would need to re-supply (No one can carry that much ammo) which means all the Guards would realistically have to do is take and hold every single ammo dump on the battle-planet...
With every single Guardsman in the Imperiu at their disposal they have enough resources at their disposal to make Cadia look like a Nursery...

What always interested me, is that, in such a conflict, the marine argument is that they would go after the command and control systems via direct shock troop type attacks. I always imagined the Guard could set up some excellent ambushes with false HQs using false signals centers to lure them in. There they could shoot them up or, in more proper guard fashion, set off a nice deathstrike warhead or good old fashioned boobytrapped mines on a 10 ton scale or such.

Bloody their noses a few times and the marines are in a real quandary.

aka_mythos wrote:

Ignatius wrote:@aka_mythos

You were speaking about the maneuverability of the Space Marines. He wasn't talking about the reinforcement options so much as the ability to redeploy to other areas, which, the Drop Pod clearly is incapable of doing. Where as the Valkyrie can simply come down and pick up a squad to move them to a new location. Which is a huge part of "maneuverability".

No he wasn't... if you go back through all the quotes he began by asserting that IG don't need drop pods because Valkyries do the same thing. I then posed that they do not, since Valkries still rely on aerodynamic re-entry and drop pods are direct ballistic. He accepted that as a superior attribute, but then posed the re-deployability as an advantage over the drop pod. I then posted this:

ME wrote:7) Drop pods are a "here and now" asset. While a thunderhawk may need to extract a drop pod, its more a case of weighing the risk of losing a drop pod vs loosing many more units. In real life what does the soldier on the ground need reinforcements now or reinforcements 10-15 minutes from now? Win the battle and it doesn't matter you need to land a thunderhawk.

Reasserting the separate and distinct design intent of drop pods over valkyries and emphasizing the point that Marines have versatility because they can also send Thunderhawks, at the same time even.

Ignatius wrote:
Also, you said, "Second the number of Valkyries in a given task force are generally insufficient to land all Imperial Guard, they simply rely on much larger landers to bring planet-side the majority of forces. This general scarcity is why they're largely reserved for Storm Troopers."

There are not supposed to be enough Valkyries to land the entire guard regiment, that would be a huge waste of resources. Again, we aren't speaking of bringing troops planet side. We are speaking of getting troops where they need to be as fast and as reliably as possible.

Except that's where you're wrong my line of conversation started because he posted this:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
...
3) The IG can drop from orbit too, in Valkyries.
4) The Guard can fly in on Valkyries.
..
7) The IG don't need drop-pods, they use Valkyries.

Ignatius wrote:
Where the Imperial Guard's method of reinforcing and redeploying allows them to be both dropped off and picked up, the Astartes only allows them to be dropped off. Which means that if they are needed a couple minutes later in a new place, they are going to have to literally run there.

I'm insisting that when redeployability is important SM have the resources to send Thunderhawks, but also the advantage of getting reinforcements more quickly if its time sensitive by drop pod. They have a choice, while IG do not. That is versatility and flexibility the IG can't buy. What good is the Valkyrie that arrives 10 minutes late?

Ignatius wrote:
Your last sentence confuses me. I'm curious as to why you said that Valkyries are usually reserved for storm troopers. Because this is something that is made up. Partly because storm trooper squads, companies, and regiments aren't a part of a regiment other than their own. They are lent to regiments that are in need much like Valkyries are. Seeing as how Valkyries are MUCH more commonplace in the Guard as there are storm troopers, then this would be statistically impossible.

Stormtroopers don't just fall out of the air... they're jumping from something. That was just to say that. They are a higher value asset than a platoon and would generally get the higher priority.

Part of the confusion is the context in which I'm discussing Valkyries and how plentiful Valkyries are actually supposed to be. In planetfall valkyries would generally be reserved for airborne regiments such as Stormtroopers or Elysians, but the vast majority of IG land in the big fortress class landers. I keep saying "general scarcity" because even though there are alot of them, in proportion to non-airborne regiments (ie a regiment that doesn't have 1:1 valkyries to infantry) the distribution is going to be significantly slim, such that the Navy averages 1 Valkyrie per company or fewer. While IG can hold back the Valkyries as a reserve, they just generally wouldn't arrive as quickly as SM could choose to deploy assets.

Ignatius wrote:
It is implied that "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" means all the Imperial Guard vs all the Space Marines as had been talked about in the first few pages of the thread.

First I'm not buying the whole every last IG vs every last SM line of thought... the IG would gridlock a planets airspace and overwhelm radio bandwith. Any planet sufficiently large enough for all the IG to be present and allow for an actual battlefield would likely be so massive as to have a gravity well too extreme for the average human... let alone the disruption to the planets orbit caused by the added mass. I've made clear I don't believe the SM as presented would be able to stand up to the IG, but I'm insisting its because if they were represented with any degree of realism they would never fight those types of battles.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1-4, 7, 9) I assumed it was all the guard in one place based on the title IG vs. SM. I suppose it should be clarified or we cannot proceed. And yes, once the landing is secured with Valkyries, they bring in larger landers. This isn't a flaw, it's force concentration at its finest.

The OP is asking about "respect" and if he poses anything, its the notion of the SM chapters attacking all the IG. So if we're going to make this about trying to re-frame the discussion, any conversation about IG shouldn't include Naval assets since they're the defenders and if the Navy were still present the SM attacking wouldn't even be able to occur. This is me writing in an intentionally dickish way... I wasn't writing in terms of any sort of hypothetical engagement as you've posed... and the OP only remotely... I acknowledged the weaknesses of the Astartes and was simply trying to point out they have advantages too. You and Ignatius are treating this as a philosophical attack on the IG, I don't see it that way, because I see an Imperium where the IG and SM compliment each other very well.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
5,10) There isn't a place where those scout units *aren't* because of how the Imperial Guard operates. Scout regiments are rarely fielded as one formation, but split into companies and even sections, each element being attached to a regiment that has no integral scouts. Therefore, where there is a Guard regiment, there are some Guard scouts from a different, more specialized regiment.

I was trying to point out the logistical concerns... that SM's advantage is that they can do more with whats a organizationally smaller entity; that if the IG were to bring forces to bear against the SM, they don't just have to bring more troops because of attrition, but that they have to bring more troops because of the size of their smallest dividable formation. The IG due to the logistics of space travel would have to commit and land a Regiment of scouts, even if they only needed 10 scouts. Meanwhile if SM need 10 scouts, that's all they have to worry about supporting. SM fighting IG would likely attack food transports and let them starve.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) Unlike Valkyries, they require orbital support. Why don't the Guard receive their orbital support?

Because as posed, the SM are attacking the IG not the IG and Navy.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) Although instantaneously arriving, again their extraction is not. They will be useful for reinforcement of beleaguered Marines, but they will not be able to move from that position once deployed without the application of additional assets. Throwing such assets into the fray puts them at the mercy of those oh-so-effective Air Defense Regiments, which are murder (as you can see from my point above).

Unlike the IG, the SM have the resources to deploy both; drop a drop pod and fly in a Thunderhawk at the same time but only arriving in time for extraction. My point is with that with SM it doesn't need to be an either or choice, they can always do both. Also remember space marine ships unlike the IG transport ships, have bombardment cannons allowing them to bombard planets before an attack. Remember this is IG vs SM not IG and IN vs SM.

Even if I was defending something that he didn't mean, it doesn't invalidate my arguement about Valkyrie vs Drop Pod and maneuverability.

Yes Valkyries can be described as "generally scarce". But don't forget that there are more Valkyries than space marines.

In all reality, the differences in numbers and firepower here makes this entire arguement completely unnecessary and one sided.

Trillions. Hundreds of Trillions of guardsmen. Against a Million Space Marines. The numbers make it impossible for the Marines to win.

Okay, just looking at numbers doesn't really help at all. Look at weapons. Contrary to what you have been "taught" in BL novels, the humble lasgun can in fact do damage to a marine's ceremite- provided it hits something softer than the hard armor. Perhaps the joints or eye lenses. Well that can't be relied on! A guardsmen will have a hard time doing that! Maybe by himself. But not when his entire company is shooting too. And just think, there are more regiments than Space Marines. On the other hand, a marines bolter will outright kill a guardsmen out in the open with a single hit. So guardsmen vs marine, clearly it goes to the marine.

Now what about squad special weapons? This is where the tide turns (more than enough in my opinion, but we will discuss how it changes even more in a little bit) in the Guard's favor if the 1,000,000+ to 1 ratio doesn't convince you. A plasma gun will kill a space marine as easily as a boltgun will kill a guardsmen. Now think about the fact that there are more plasma guns as there are space marines. Same exact thing with melta guns. A marine won't be able to sustain direct hits from multiple grenade launchers, a sniper rifle will have enough punch to blow through a marines helmat, and a flamer will eventually do enough harm to a marine. Now how practical is it to say that they will be in range, line of sight, ect, ect.? Enough that statistically, I would imagine that the entire marine force can be killed just with lasguns and the squad based special weapons.

But let's not even consider them in our equation. And now we find ourselves at the doorstep of heavy weapons. Besides special weapons, this is where the average human makes up for what he lacks in strength and endurace. Every single heavy weapon offered in the guard codex will be able to kill a space marine. It's been done in novels. How many heavy weapons does the guard have you ask? More than there are marines. For each weapon. And then a lot more.

How about tanks? (which we will group together for the sake of avoiding redundancy)
Well there are more Leman Russ' than there are space marines. And each is fully capable of obliterating multiple marines with every battle cannon shot. The Leman Russ is stronger, tougher, and arguably more reliable than the Astartes Predator. Even the Land Raider (which is a relic in itself) wouldn't be able to stand up to many Russ'. Even if you want to argue that the regular Leman Russ isn't strong enough to take out a Land Raider, then the Leman Russ Vanquisher and the Laser Destroyer will show up and take care of them real quick like.
There are more Hydra anti aircraft than marines.
More Basilisks and all forms of artillary than marines.
More Valkyries than marines.
More Vendettas than marines.
More sentinels, storm troopers (which are basically marines without the augments and as strong of armor), chimeras, hellhounds, and anything else in the entire codex than there are marines.

You can't- no matter how you argue it- stand up to the firepower and numbers to even claim that the marines have even a sliver of a percent of a chance of winning.

ill sum this up to this.




Quantity has a Quality all it's own.




now increase that picture by hundreds of trillions.

There are more superheavy tanks in the entire Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

Really this is just silly.

Unit1126PLL wrote:There are more superheavy tanks in the entire Imperial Guard than there are Space Marines.

Really this is just silly.

hold that thought..... i have a space marine and 7 Super heavys in mah army. i now want to have a picture of 4 Baneblades (3 battle tanks and a Shadowsword), a Malcador Annialator, Macharius Vanquisher and a Minotaur Artillary Pience surrounding a single Space Marine with a funny voice bubble form him

probly "Oh S*bleep*......"

Brother Thomas wrote:. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear.

That depends on many factors as for the rest of your post:

SM would win, and I mean it. Aside from all the other obvious advantages, the SM have the following advantage:
They are comprimated. In strentgh, they can deploy overwhelming force in a small area. The IG, on the other hand, are stranded on a planet, with either

1. A small planet. Here the guardsmen layers would be so thick (Yes, they would cover all ground several times over) they'd rapidly die to pressure, heat, hunger......

2. A large planet. A planet large enough for all IG to actually fight on would be so large that even SM have a tough time standing up. IG would be crushed to paste.

With all earlier arguments taken into account, SM would win.

Discussion over.

Mmm

There are planets with 130 billions humans (hive worlds) take off the buildings, replace them with 120 billions guardsmen and co add a million SM with all their gear, the outcome is the same, they don't need the trillions of men and billions of equipement pieces.

I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Ratbarf wrote:That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

I don't think people appreciate that in order for the Asartes to win, every single space marine would need to kill several thousand Guardsmen before being killed themselves. That's the level of disparity between Astartes numbers and Guardsmen numbers.

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Unfortunately this same principle was tried by the Germans against the Soviets in WWII. It turns out that slightly less powerful but much much more numerous foes can indeed overwhelm a position if the correct tactics are used.

The German divisions were rocks in a sea, to use the same analogy. But the USSR won the war.

And, just like the USSR, the Imperial Guard actually have better equipment for that purpose than their counterparts, as well as a doctrine perfected to utilize such a mass of men and material over thousands of years.

Think of it this way:
The Marines fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics (sometimes including PDF)
3) Xenos
Note that none of these operates on the same scale or with the same power as the Imperial Guard.

The Imperial Guard fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics
3) Xenos
Note the first thing on the list. The Imperial Guard, especially the Cadians, Mordians, and Armageddon Steel Legion are experienced in fighting Chaos Space Marines. This means that they know the underhanded Marine tactics, they know the rough capabilities of their equipment. They know that Imperial armor is superior to Marine armor, they know that Imperial heavy weapons are much more numerous than Marine heavy weapons. They know how to apply these strengths.
This makes them dangerous opponents for any force of Marines.

Dark wrote:If they dont win, Marines would take a great deal of the IG with 'em.

Mostly due psychological and morale factors, as Iracundus said, mortal men will fight them with fear at first... eventually they'll either crumble or will be exalted when they realize that even gods can die, but when that happens might be too late.

Sorry but this is an uneducated assumption. Obviously the whole world could easily defeat the royal marines, however that is not the case here. This is Adeptus Astartes, the most elite, genetically engineered POWER ARMOR wearing hardasses in the galaxy.


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BlaxicanX wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

I don't think people appreciate that in order for the Asartes to win, every single space marine would need to kill several thousand Guardsmen before being killed themselves. That's the level of disparity between Astartes numbers and Guardsmen numbers.

In vietnam the average grunt fired something like 5000 rounds per kill. Okay the ig are average grunts. Now the space marines are super elite men engineered for war. Calm, collective and utterly savage and merciless. The ig look up to the astartes and cower in their presence. Now all this being said imagine an astartes advancing on the enemy, one shot one kill. The ig spraying and praying, just hoping somehow he can kill a fully armored mutant, who is higly resistant to his rounds. Imagine the person you look up to most, ok good now imagine him savagely tearing your friend apart and then charging you next

Engine of War wrote:Recap main scenario (as some have lost sight of what it is)

Every single Imperial Guardsmen in the Imperium (and all their equipment, vehicales, you name it)
VS>
Every Single Spehess Meherine in the Imperium (along side all their equipment, vehicales etc)

This is a PLANETARY WAR. If you want Space combat go take that up with the boys who fly the space ships. (which is another topic all together, but my 2 cents say the Entire IMperial Navy can wipe away the Space Marines navy, but thats another discussion all together! so stay on topic!)

You can leave the Battle boats at home. you can have your drop pods and all that alongside thunderhawks and such.
...

This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides; you might as well be telling Space Marines to fight a war with a hands tied behind their back. Space Marines are a fully integrated land-and-space force; there single greatest advantage is that they have everything they might need is under a single command hierarchy. IG might be forced to fight a war without the aid of the Imperial Navy any time they get attacked by an invasion force, but Marines are relatively inseparable from their space elements.

Simply it is to say, without their full force, the Space Marines would lose to the IG; its very clear cut and hinges on their integrated capabiliity.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

Unfortunately this same principle was tried by the Germans against the Soviets in WWII. It turns out that slightly less powerful but much much more numerous foes can indeed overwhelm a position if the correct tactics are used.

The German divisions were rocks in a sea, to use the same analogy. But the USSR won the war.

And, just like the USSR, the Imperial Guard actually have better equipment for that purpose than their counterparts, as well as a doctrine perfected to utilize such a mass of men and material over thousands of years.

Think of it this way:
The Marines fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics (sometimes including PDF)
3) Xenos
Note that none of these operates on the same scale or with the same power as the Imperial Guard.

The Imperial Guard fight:
1) Other Marines
2) Heretics
3) Xenos
Note the first thing on the list. The Imperial Guard, especially the Cadians, Mordians, and Armageddon Steel Legion are experienced in fighting Chaos Space Marines. This means that they know the underhanded Marine tactics, they know the rough capabilities of their equipment. They know that Imperial armor is superior to Marine armor, they know that Imperial heavy weapons are much more numerous than Marine heavy weapons. They know how to apply these strengths.
This makes them dangerous opponents for any force of Marines.

The main difference between the Germans in WW2 and the Space Marines is the comparative level of technology and inherent superiority of the Space Marines. The Space Marines should be able to pick and choose their fights every time. The Guard simply do not have the level of mobility of the Space Marines. Much of their force is only as fast as their feet, with some as fast as their tanks, and very very very few regiments as fast as their Valkyries. All Space Marines are as fast if not faster than the Imperial Guard Valkyries, so they simply cannot be caught and brought to the fight if they don't want too.

Their Space Component also works in a way that no one has mentioned yet, even if you take away all of their orbit to surface weapons the Space Marine space arm acts as a safe haven from which they can strike quickly, and after retreival rest with impunity to Guard weapons and technology. That means that they will almost always be able to strike where they wish, and where they can do the most damage while taking the least amount of casualties.

In addition to all this, the Guard are susceptible to morale, whereas the Space Marines are not. Essentially, whenever the Space Marines fight the Guard they will aim to break all of the units within their operational area, once that's done they either mop up or smash and grab.

Sure, maybe, but a single company couldn't beat 50 regiments at once, with three of them being artillery regiments and five of them being tank regiments. That's why the IG would win in an all out war against the Astartes.

The thing is though is that they would never have to. The Guard could only bring a regiment or two against the company at a time. It's a matter of space, there simply isn't enough frontage in a Space Marine company to cram 50 regiments against it. Even if you just put all of the men shoulder to shoulder, and all the Space Marines shoulder to shoulder, you would still only have a frontage of maybe a thousand men if the Guard completely surrounded them. I think the Space Marines could kill the Guard a thousand men at a time.

In anycase the above scenario is still unlikely to happen, because the Space Marines have an untouchable refuge in the form of their space fleet and the strike capability to be in and out before the Guard can bring the appropriate counter to bear.

All in all I think the Space Marines would win.

Why does everyone assume thunderhawks won't be shot down? Frankly it's just rather weird.

aka_mythos wrote:This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides

An advantage which wouldn't even help them anyway, but if you want to include naval battles, then the Imperial Navy gets included because that's how the Guard gets around and frankly? The Imperial Navy woudl crush the Space Marine navy under sheer numbers and firepower as well.

Space Marines are too tiny of a force to do anything but bruise the Imperial Guard war machine. The numbers difference is literally that great. There's not really anything they can do about it.

I appreciate it's a terribly important, nay vital topic, but it'll be much more fun for everyone concerned if users are polite to each other when debating the issue.

Thanks everyone !

The space contingent is probably their biggest strength personally. Once a power controls the gravity well of a planet it's pretty much over for the inhabitants from a combat point of view. How would the planetary forces be resupplied? The Guard aren't exactly farmers.

Actually come to think of it, its a Space Marine auto win to fight the Guard and just the guard on a single planet. That's trillions and trillions of mouths to feed, if Jupiter was an Earthlike planet and 100% arable even it wouldn't have enough surface area to feed that many people, let alone provide water for them.

Oh man, I just realised that the Guard would likely lose within say a year, and I think that's highballing it, of the engagement. Screw going after the officers, hit their water supplies.

Ratbarf wrote:The space contingent is probably their biggest strength personally.

Again, if you want to include naval battles, then we're tossing in the Imperial Navy, which would wipe the metaphorical floor with the Space Marine navy-- the Imperial Navy has superior firepower and numbers, bigger ships, faster ships, and so on and so forth. It's a true navy, not just a few ships designed to drop some drop pods on a planet and provide artillery support (and a few smaller ships to escort).

The Space Marines wouldn't even last a year, so that's not entirely the problem here.

I'm not including naval battles. All of my posts use the Space contingent as either a strike platform or a rest area out of the reach of Guard weapons.

And the Guard are supposed to be stranded without the Navy, that's intentional.

And I haven't broken the original premise of the thread. Space Marines vs the Imperial Guard, Space Marines include a naval contingent, that's just the way they are. And there is a lot more to warfare, especially strategic warfare, than killing things with various weapons. Disease, hunger, thirst, a good general lets these weapons do the fighting for him.

Remember war isn't simply about killing your enemy, it's about making it impossible for him to do anything except lose. The Space Marines naval contingent guarantees the Imperial Guard will lose, most likely without even having to fire a shot. (no time limit posed, ergo the space marines could simply wait in space all cheery and safe and wait for the guard to grow old and die if they wanted to)


Tangent thought; This thread is pretty much a more extreme version of, "Who would win between the Marine Corps and the Army if both were shucked on an island and last force standing wins?" The answer is the Marine Corps, they just get on their boats, interdict the island out of strike range of Army planes/choppers and wait for them to starve to death.

Wow I think I'm starting to repeat myself, time to go to bed, been up for ~43 hours/

Ratbarf wrote:a rest area out of the reach of Guard weapons.

It isn't. Guard has ICBMs and other transcontinental artillery weapons. And again, if you include naval assets, then the Guard would have their own as well (they do in the normal course of battle anyway, even if it's just a means of insertion and extraction).

Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.

However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

True, but the distances involved means that the Battle Barges are going to have a couple of days warning to get out of the way.

Melissia wrote:Why does everyone assume thunderhawks won't be shot down? Frankly it's just rather weird.

aka_mythos wrote:This notion of the battle is the flaw of the arguement, becasue it purposefully excludes the biggest advantage of one of the two sides

An advantage which wouldn't even help them anyway, but if you want to include naval battles, then the Imperial Navy gets included because that's how the Guard gets around and frankly?

In the posed hypothetical by the OP, the Marines are the attackers. So the IG didn't have to get around the Marines came to them. In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

For Marines to attack they'd have to have their ships. For their to be a land battle of any sort, the Imperial Navy couldn't be present or else it'd simple preclude a Space Marine attack.

The Imperial Navy is not explicitly part of the Imperial Guard, but the Space Marine battle fleets are explicitly part of their chapter.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Navy woudl crush the Space Marine navy under sheer numbers and firepower as well.

Which even I pointed out, but that's part of my point... if its Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vs. Space Marines, its no contest, marines lose and we do not have a hypothetical scenario we have a stacked fight. If its just IG vs. SM as posed , the IG still have a chance barring the SM use of an exterminatus capable weapons.

Melissia wrote:Space Marines are too tiny of a force to do anything but bruise the Imperial Guard war machine. The numbers difference is literally that great. There's not really anything they can do about it

As I posed, if the Space Marines needed to fight the Imperial Guard, they'd never engage them directly. They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve. Within a day a force of a trillion guardsmen would deplete a planets food supply... two weeks later they'd be resorting to extremes.

aka_mythos wrote:In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

I don't care. If the Marines get naval assets, so do the Guard. The separation between the Guard and Navy isn't as great as you think.

If you must attempt to weasel your way in to having orbital bombardment, then I would argue that the Marine naval assets are tied up and unable to do so because of the navy, in the same way that you are trying to claim that the navy would not be able to participate.

aka_mythos wrote:They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve.

... and then get annihilated by the navy. If you're going to do naval battles, do naval battles.

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

You are, however, correct in that the actual battle would be fought in space. And the Navy would win handily.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

If the projectile has escape velocity, then hitting a target in space is simply a matter of trial and error. If it doesn't, then how would it hit something from halfway across the planet to begin with?

There are more Valkyries than there are marines.

Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard. We're not allowed to bring along the mechanicum, you can't bring the navy.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along.

I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

Edited Addition: Does anyone know how fast Imperial Augeries are in comparison to the speed of light? I ask because of the Guard shooting stuff into space thing. The only thing that would have a hope in heck of hitting a target which can change its course would have to be either self guiding and propelling, or a laser weapon. Lasers are however moot if Imperial Augeries give the Battle barges enough forewarning. As for self guiding, that's what interceptors are for.

Ratbarf wrote:Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard.

They're used by the Guard on a regular basis. The distinction is kinda stupid.

As for why you can't bring in "the mechanicus", if you want to do that, then the Guard can as well because both make use of them (the Guard makes far more use of them however).

Ratbarf wrote:I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

That's nonsense. The Guard is capable of wiping out entire squads of marines in a single artillery barrage. Maybe if the water was actually acid...

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

Thats so wrong I don't know where to begin.

If the projectile has escape velocity, then hitting a target in space is simply a matter of trial and error. If it doesn't, then how would it hit something from halfway across the planet to begin with?

I was going to write out a long ridiculous analogy about trial and error and hitting targets in space with a sarcastic "yeah sure" in there, but I can't be bothered.

No, trial and error will not allow you to hit something in space just because you have escape velocity. It's vastly more complicated than that. It's also totally off-topic at this point.

Ratbarf wrote:

There are more Valkyries than there are marines.

Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard. We're not allowed to bring along the mechanicum, you can't bring the navy.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along.

I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

Edited Addition: Does anyone know how fast Imperial Augeries are in comparison to the speed of light? I ask because of the Guard shooting stuff into space thing. The only thing that would have a hope in heck of hitting a target which can change its course would have to be either self guiding and propelling, or a laser weapon. Lasers are however moot if Imperial Augeries give the Battle barges enough forewarning. As for self guiding, that's what interceptors are for.

They are attached to Imperial Guard regiments on a regular basis. I wasn't speaking of all the navy's Valkyries, I was speaking of just those attached to the Guard.

And your analogy of the ocean is excellent. And the Marines are rocks. But your other analogy would imply that the Imperial Guard is largely ineffective agianst marines, which is not true

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Those are attached Naval assets, not Imperial Guard.

They're used by the Guard on a regular basis. The distinction is kinda stupid.

The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard. There are however a few units that have integral Valkyries, those are fine, they're Guard.

As for why you can't bring in "the mechanicus", if you want to do that, then the Guard can as well because both make use of them (the Guard makes far more use of them however).

The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

Ratbarf wrote:I think you forgot the part where the Space Marines aren't rocks. If I had to do a more accurate analogy, the Imperial Guard is X liters of water running down a trough where the Space Marines are a steel wedge stuck in the middle. The water would have to wear down the the steel wedge before it ran out of liters.

That's nonsense. The Guard is capable of wiping out entire squads of marines in a single artillery barrage. Maybe if the water was actually acid...

The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

Kaldor wrote:No, trial and error will not allow you to hit something in space just because you have escape velocity. It's vastly more complicated than that. It's also totally off-topic at this point.

Maybe, but it's far more interesting than the actual topic. I'm no physics major for sure, though.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:In the OP's post its explicitly between the IG and the Space Marines, and not the IG and Navy against the Space Marines.

I don't care. If the Marines get naval assets, so do the Guard. The separation between the Guard and Navy isn't as great as you think.

The IG and IN are not an integrated entity. They are not the same thing. The fact you don't care doesn't change the discussion. "I don't care" is a take your ball and go home sort of response.

The SM are not a pure land army, the IG are, thus the IG is dependent on the IN, while the SM are not. That is an advantage.

Melissia wrote:
If you must attempt to weasel your way in to having orbital bombardment, then I would argue that the Marine naval assets are tied up and unable to do so because of the navy, in the same way that you are trying to claim that the navy would not be able to participate.

aka_mythos wrote:They'd perform hit and run attacks on the ships carrying food to support the IG and let the IG starve.

... and then get annihilated by the navy. If you're going to do naval battles, do naval battles.

Yes you're right. We should ignore naval battles. The marines would simply wait in space and let the IG starve to death since the non-presence of Naval assets would prevent the delivery of food.

The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war, then you've simply framed it explicitly so the SM lose, since by declaring it a pure land battle you prevent the Space Marines from utilizing the fullness of their Chapter's resources. Saying the Imperial Navy isn't present, does not however make the same imposition on the Imperial Guard, it simply imposes the same buraeucratic limitation that exist in the fluff, by virtue of seperate and distinct command hierarchies.

To put this one more way... Space Marines without ships is as counter-intuitive as the notion of Imperial Guard without their tanks. Both are just silly impositions.

Ratbarf wrote:The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard.

Again, it's a nonsensical distinction, so I don't buy it even for an instant.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

You failed.

Ratbarf wrote:The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

The point was nonsense, so it's hard for the analogy to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:The IG and IN are not an integrated entity.

In actual warfare, the effect is the same.

aka_mythos wrote:The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war

Because it is.

I think it's gotten to the point where we're arguing semantics......

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:The distinction may be stupid but it is a distinction, Valkyries are in general Navy, you can't take those they're not Imperial Guard.

Again, it's a nonsensical distinction, so I don't buy it even for an instant.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason I brought that up was to illustrate how ludicrous it would be for the Guard to bring Naval assets or the Navy when it says explicitly Guard and Guard only.

You failed.

Ratbarf wrote:The point of an analogy is to aide in the illustration of the point, it is not the point in itself.

The point was nonsense, so it's hard for the analogy to work.

...

aka_mythos wrote:The issue as I see it, is IF you frame the battle as a pure land war

Because it is.

Now you're acting quite puerile
There is no rational to your statements.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The IG and IN are not an integrated entity.

In actual warfare, the effect is the same.

No they aren't. A perfect example is the US Marines, they have their own fighter jets to provided ground attack, the US Army does not. When the Marines call in air support average time to engage the ground target is less then when the Army calls the Air Force. This is because Marine jets tend to stay close to their ground forces, while the Air Force has larger zones covered by a few orbiting and waiting aircraft. In the last 10 years alots bean done to shrink that time to meet the Army's need and save lives, but there are still incidences where its taken an hour for the Air Force to show up, as aircraft are prioritized to the Air Force and not the Armys needs... when the Army called for air support it works its way up through the Army chain of command and down through the Air Forces. With Marines there is a single intermediate dispatcher. This is the difference between how an integrated and non-integrated force work.

Let's put it this way, there's a good chance Ward would write the fluff for the scenario, at which point the Space Marines win and then the Emperor wakes up, gets off his Golden toilet and throws a huge ice cream party for the Chaos Gods, at which point Gork and Mork show up and crash said party while Lorgar weeps in the corner for not being invited by his daddy.

And yes I know and no I don't care.

Ignatius wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.


However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Do tell me the exact physiology of power armor since you seem to know.

Aye it is (or would be?) nigh unpenetrable. the reason for them not having "completely purified the entire galaxy" is a mix of the arguments you've made in the guards favor so far. (vastly inferior numbers, limited ground-based artillery support etc.)

Brother Thomas wrote:What do you know about tactics. Lets put a huge hulking 7 foot tall beast with augmented muscles and and bones and put him in a full uparmored suit, Now lets take their fallen comrades and put them in walking tanks, otherwise known as dreadnaughts. Hell while were at it lets throw in some predators. Ok now we have the guardsmen with minimal armor, a chestguard and a helmet. Oh and a lasgun. In so many books i've read the most a lasgun does to a set of power armor is mess with the electronics a small amount, but not even rendering unusable. Therefore you can shoot as much firepower you want,

Which mark of Lasgun? Necromunda? Mars? Triplex? No. 98 Lucius? M36? The Accatran Mk IV? They all vary in power. To take the No. 98 Lucius as an example, it's a slow firing lasgun but it fires at a higher power setting than most lasguns and has a greater impact. The way lasguns work is to dispatch a high powered, intense beam of light that, on contact, becomes a mixture of kinetic & heat energy. It does more than 'mess with the electronics'. It vaporises moisture to the extent that, on a human, it blows huge chunks out of them. Ten lasguns firing at an Astartes will overload the 'electronics' which the Astartes will not want because... well the systems may have to reboot, leaving the Astartes crippled & unable to do anything because the servos in the armour can't move. This is what happens when Astartes teleport in Power Armour - the huge mass of energy shuts down the systems & they can't do anything until the armours systems reboot.

Even if the lasguns don't penetrate, break or buckle the ceramite armour, the effect they have on mass is, for the Astartes, literally staggering. Ever read about men in plate mail walking forward into the 'hail' of shafts loosed from English & Welsh warbows? How, even if the arrows could not penetrate they had more than enough force to make those knights stagger. Astartes, being stronger & heavier than a man in plate mail, will be steadier against a few impacts, but when a hundred Guardsmen are all firing their lasguns at an Astartes? He's going to be knocked all over the shop.

Oh yes, almost forgot. Hellguns.

When you got elite space marines teleporting in on your position and tearing average men's limbs from there bodys, you're really not going to be able to do much. Not to mention chapters with special abilities like the blood angels death company. They are beserkers that do not feel pain. They can have no legs and still be shootng there boltgun in fury taking out imperial guardsmen. Not to mention IG's have emotions, they can be routed, they have fear. The Astartes do not. They can flip the switch between mindless killing and peace. Lets see what else. Can the imperial guard tote around heavy machine guns in there bare hands? Hm I think not. They will easily be outmaneuvered. At best they have heavy machine guns mounted on tripods. I'd love to see them pick up all the equipment and move faster then a sprinting astartes devastator. Not going to happen. Oh lets not even get into the assault marines, unleashing chaos among the ranks of the IG who are already losing there minds under the suppresion of the devastators and the tactical marines manuevering and flanking endlessly.

Let's talk about the Mordian Iron Guard & the Praetorian Guard. The regiments from both Mordian & Praetoria fight in ranks and are amongst the most disciplined soldiers in the Imperial Guard. They will continue to fire their lasguns & obey orders even when taking large numbers of casualties - why? It's the same reason why soldiers stood in line trading fire with each other during c18/c19 - training. They're trained to stand in the line, take the casualties, keep firing, let the discipline & training override the instinct for self-preservation. If the Mordians & Praetorians can fight in that way, in their ranks, firing disciplined volleys against massed hordes of Tyranids or Orks and not break ranks, they're just going to laugh at the Astartes. If their Sergeants let them have that minor lapse in discipline.

But lets look closely at the cream of the crop - when it comes to morale & feeling no fear, it's the Death Korp to who we must turn. Why? In general the Guard are fantastically brave - they hold the line & win against gruesome, gribbly enemies who are more powerful than the average Guardsman in his flak armour but the Death Korp take this to the extreme. Astartes are 'modified' to know no fear. The Death Korp don't understand the meaning of fear. In the same way they don't understand the meaning of the words 'retreat', 'fallback' and 'defeat'. Why is this? Well Krieg was once a particularly average Hive world until it's governing body broke from the Imperium in m40. This sparked a 500-year civil war between the loyalists & 'traitors'. The loyalists won but Krieg was devestated. It's surface was so soaked in isotopes so deadly they make Sarin look like a cure for the common cold and Sarin is one of the nastiest things mankind has ever concieved or created to date. I digress. To survive on Krieg requires incredible toughness, discipline & the constant use of protective equipment. When the Death Korp regiments are nearing the end of their basic training (essentially from a young age they're trained to become Korpsmen & indoctrinated in the Imperial Faith) they do several months of live fire & battlefield exercises to weed out the weakest of the strong - the weak will already have died in basic training because Kriegs training is like that - if you fall by the way you die.

Because of their planets past transgressions the Death Korp believe they must pay a blood debt to the Imperium. This translates as, roughly, 'And They Shall Know No Fear.' Korpsmen have just one wish, one desire and one belief - that they will die for their Emperor and thus help to repay the debt Krieg owes. This happens to make the Death Korp rather unique because, besides the fact they will never run away, they are so zealous that they have Commissars attached to them to prevent them from sacrificing themselves without gain because the Death Korp will do that, such as their need to die for their Emperor.

So lets take a Company of Astartes, of a Codex Chapter, so 100 Astartes, and put them up against a Siege Regiment of the Death Korp in a meeting engagement - both forces are advancing towards each other. Who is going to win? The 100,000-200,000 strong (or even more) Siege Regiment of the Death Korp with their powerful Lucius Pattern No. 98 Lasguns, frag & krak grenades, their Grenadiers armed with Hellguns, the regiments massive amount of flamers, grenade launchers, plasmaguns, meltaguns, marksman weapons, heavy bolters, autocannons, lascannons, mortars, missile launchers, Earthshakers, Thudd guns, heavy mortars, MOLE weapons, Centaurs, Ryza-pattern Leman Russ tanks, Macharius/Malcador heavy tanks, or the 100 Astartes with their tiny amount of heavy weapons, their bolters, melee weapons & just their power armour to defend them against all that massed firepower staring right at them & able to pound them before the Astartes can close to effective range with their bolters? If a Challenger 2 tank can record kills at 5km in our present timeline, just think what a Leman-Russ is going to do with its weapons.

Even if the Astartes attack on a narrow front, and lets say they're just against the Death Korp infantry, starting the fight at effective range of their bolters - how many is that Astartes Company going to lose after it's destroyed just one Death Korp company? That Death Korp company could be anything beyond 1,000 men. Even if, by some chance, the Company of Astartes kill off that regiment, by some fluke of chance (because they can't carry enough ammunition to kill all 200,000 of the Korpsmen and the Death Korp are the best bayonet/melee fighters in the Guard so won't go down easily, especially as their morale won't break), the Death Korp wouldn't care - after all, another 10 regiments could be being raised on Krieg at that very time thanks to the vitae-womb technique.

Endstate, The fire and maneuver of the astartes would DECIMATE any IG size element. The technology difference is just so vast that it doesn't even make any sense to compare them. The IG are supplementary troops. Cannon fodder. end of story

No, I'm sorry, but the Guard are not cannon fodder. They are the first, foremost and only line of defence for the Imperium. They fight & win more wars than the Astartes are involved in, are capable of taking planets on their own, defending them and really thrashing the enemies of mankind. The Astartes just take all the glory by accomplishing far lesser achievements.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:I think that a lot of the argument that is circular here is that whatever the Space Marines use, the Guard will simply reply with their slightly less effective, but much more numerically superior weapons. This is only true to a certain extent. Yes the Guard have overall superiority, but I doubt that they could achieve local superiority over the Space Marines. I say this because every chapter of Marines should be able to fight on say, 10 battlefields at once. That's one per company, each of those companies are capable of beating, quite handily I might add, several regiments of Imperial Guard at any given time.

Do you have a source for this assumption? Because I would argue against this tooth and nail just like many of you are about the Space Marines beating the Imperial Guard. 100 marines beating tens of thousands of Guardsmen? Nice try.

Ratbarf wrote:Now obviously there are rock paper scissors issues with this premise. A Battle company would likely die to a tank regiment, an Assault Company would likely die to an anti-air regiment, On the other hand, and Assault company would likely murder the crap out of an Artillery regiment, or a light infantry regiment, and do well against any unarmoured infantry regiments. A Devastator company would likely excel against a Superheavy regiment, and would almost definately wipe a tank regiment, or Armoured regiment. A bike assault company would wipe a roughrider regiment, and likely artillery and armoured regiments as well. What I'm getting at essentially is that Space Marines have a hard counter for everything the Imperial Guard can throw at them, and the Imperial Guard have a counter to pretty much everything the space marines can throw at them, aside from possibly teleporters and terminators. So the force that would defeat the other would be the one that is able to always deploy their rock where the enemy deploys a scissors, and keep their rocks away from the enemy's paper. I feel the Space Marines can do this to such a greater degree than the Guard, that the Space Marines would win.

I agree with the rock paper scissors analogy. But every kind of space marine company would die to a tank regiment, as would every kind of space marine company dying to enough Infantry regiments. Saying "I feel the space marines can do this to such a greater degree" doesn't make any sort of sound arguement and defeats the purpose of the entire paragraph before it. Here's the kicker though, you said that the force that can always deploy their rock against the enemy's scissor will win. Even if the marines can do this 99 times of of 100, they still lose. The guard have the numerical capabilities to do this.

Ratbarf wrote:The reason for that being that every single Space Marine has multiple ways of getting to where they're needed as fast as possible. A chapter has enough rhinos for them all to ride them, enough bikes and landspeeders and jump packs for large numbers of the marines, and thunder and chibi hawks for both the marines and their AFV's. The Guard simply cannot match this. They exchange speed for size, the Space Marines are all about speed.

As for Space Marine supply issues, they would have a much easier time of it than the Guard, because they can simply steal stuff from the Guard.

There are more mechanized regiments than there are space marines. Guard cannot match the marines speed? There are more armored regiments than there are space marine rhinos. How does this equate to a marine victory? There are more Valkyries than there are marines. Again, Guard cannot match? The marines need to ALL be able to quickly get around the battlefield, because they lack the numbers to have specialized static forces. A luxury the Guard definately enjoys. Even if you took away every regiment that wasn't mechanized, airborne, or armored, the Guard then still outnumbers the space marines by thousands to one.

I also seem to have forgotten that Boltguns can use lasgun power packs as ammuntion. Even with all the Guard around, you still think that the supply lines (which the Guard would obviously understand the need to heavy defend them) would be minimally defended? No, an attack on them would result in losses the marines couldn't handle.

Ratbarf wrote:And a final note on the outnumbering, the Guard would never be able to bring their entire numbers down upon the Space Marines at once, an appropriate analogy I feel is that of the ocean breaking upon a rock, yes, if the ocean took all of its mass and stuck on that rock, that rocks obliterated, but it can't so it just smashes against it until the rock is worn down.


However, Space Marines aren't rocks.

In this theoretical situation, yes they are rocks. This analogy you gave actually mirrors what the Guard supporters have been saying all along. Read the bold. Sounds exactly like what we have been saying. But in this analogy, what hope does the rock have in somehow "defeating" the ocean? The rock beating the ocean sounds about as rediculous as the space marines beating the Imperial Guard.

Also, too all of you who have been saying so: Screaming POWER ARMOR repeatedly doesn't make for an arguement. Especially when power armor isn't as strong as you think it is. If it was nigh un prenetrable, then why haven't the marines completely purified the entire galaxy at this point? The Imperial Guard is the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.

Do tell me the exact physiology of power armor since you seem to know.

Aye it is (or would be?) nigh unpenetrable. the reason for them not having "completely purified the entire galaxy" is a mix of the arguments you've made in the guards favor so far. (vastly inferior numbers, limited ground-based artillery support etc.)

I never claimed to be an expert on power armor. It seems that you would know more than I, but seeing as how you claim it to be nigh unpenetrable, then I question that knowledge to a degree.

What I do know is that it is not capable of being untouched by lasgun fire, and it will eventually sustain high amounts of damage to the armor. I understand of the advanced life support and other technological systems found in it. And I do know that a single guardsmen has no chance of doing any harm (unless various joints and lenses are hit repeatedly) to a fully armored Astartes. I understand it can't take a battle cannon round, and I get that most all special and heavy weapons found in the guard will kill a space marine as well. Your interpretation of the armor capabilities seems to be further off than mine is.

And do keep in mind that I added that bit in there to respond to those who are posting that the Marines have power armor, and acting as if it renders any further discussion invalid without proposing any real expaination of why they think so.

Power armor is not "nigh un[sic]penetrable".

Never has been in 40k. Lasguns, autoguns, boltguns, sluggas/shootas, shuriken launchers, etc can all penetrate power armor to a certain degree and have been shown doing such in lore.

These threads are beyond goofy.

If the all the Space Marines somehow decided to rebel and fight all of the Imperial Guard... everyone will lose!

It is 'game over' for the Imperium at that point...

I'm fairly certain whoever recorded it would win.

The Space Marines have a couple of benefits over Guard;

1) Shock and Awe
2) Precision (Not super-precise) Drop Zones
3) Naval Support (Though 'Exterminatus' and 'Virus Bombing' are a no-no in this verses thread, though, technically, they would need a Inquisitor's signature of approval)
4) Speed (Whether deploying or hopping about)

The Imperual Guard have a couple benefits over Marines;

1) Numbers
2) More Numbers
3) Defensive Earthworks, Bunkers, AA emplacements, and the occasional 'Orbital Defense Laser'.
4) Armor Support
5) Weight of those numbers


During the first couple weeks of an invasion, the Space Marines would seem to be winning due to their effortless insertions and precision force, but the shock would fade and the Marines would slowly be ground down underneath bodies, bullets, treads, and shells. They could be the most Badassed Super Humans of All Time, but the numbers would simply overwhelm them to the point of multiple last stand scenarios.

Reading through this thread, I still keep coming back to this same conclusion.

There are millions (plural) of guardsmen for each and every Space Marine. Hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of generally better armed and armored tanks for every Space Marine tank.

To get that visually, open a word document, and just hold down the Period "." key for 508 pages. Then compare that to a single "."

That'll give you a visual representation of the weight of numbers.

Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.



The SM's can advance and destroy units, but they can't be everywhere or even most places and certainly not in force. Where an entire chapter wages war on one world, the rest of the system and 999 other Imperial systems are left open for the Imperial Guard to operate unmolested. Hell, even on one world, on a battlefront 2,000 kilometers wide (say, reminiscent of the Eastern Front in the second world war) there just aren't enough SM's in an entire chapter to adequately hold even a tenth of that line without gaps you could drive entire army groups and hundreds of thousands of troops through without issue. Astartes units would very quickly be encircled and surrounded, simply because there just aren't enough to be everywhere they need to be. The SM's unrealistically low numbers just do not work.

Lets also not forget that we cannot ignore the Imperial Navy. While not part of the Imperial Guard, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, and share a common high command, one won't stand by if the other is under attack.

Melissia wrote:I'm fairly certain whoever recorded it would win.

I think his point was more that in a fight where all the Space Marines and all the IG were in one place, the casualties would be so significant that they could no longer "hold the line" against invasion. That also ignores that if you got all the IG and SM in one spot, who's watching the frontier for all the years to get both sides together and redistribute them afterwards?

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget that we cannot ignore the Imperial Navy. While not part of the Imperial Guard, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, and share a common high command, one won't stand by if the other is under attack.

But they're two different entities and for the purposes of this verses thread, the Imperial Navy, technically, cannot be involved because it is not apart of the Imperial Guard. While under normal circumstances the Navy would be involved, but in this debate it has to be excluded.

Here ya go..... (picture is missing the rest of the entire regiment. thats only the Heavy armor (Battle tanks and Super heavys), everything else is not in there, which includes plenty of artillary, troops transports, hellhounds, and ALOT of Guardsmen.

What every space marine faces, if its little on the low side (in terms of numbers for the Guard)

its practically 1 regiment (or more!!!) per Space Marine(singular). and each regiment may vary in numbers but they are always in over a thousand (or more)

for the Lasgun vs Power armor argument.
besides the table top. Think of it as this. a needle won't destroy a rock by itself unless it manages to hit a weakspot. but a million or more needles relentlessly picking the rock into dust.
theres even a joke comic that addresses this. 1 lasgun will not hurt (unless it hits a vulerable spot), but 50 or more? kiss your power armored bumm goodbye.

Oh.... and did i mention the plamsa weapons, las cannons, melta guns, grenade launchers,etc which makes power armor useless.

Logistics argument. The guard is uncountable. But im sure they have the whole logistical system down to a science.

Space Marine "space superiority" argument: the IG have plenty of ordinace that can fire into orbit! Defense Lasers, and many more weapons. (and somethign tells me a Death strike if modified correctly can fly into space and blow up a Battle Barge!)

unfortunatly, Space Marines are NOT gods, they are powerful and have very effective armor (which i have no dout). but the Imperial Guard is able to swamp them with sheer numbers and firepower.

Vaktathi wrote:
Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.

SM independent of any other military force, has its own battlefleets and their own capability to implement Exterminatus. The Imperial Guard do not.

Some keep insisting that if SM can bring their full Chapter, which includes their ships, that the IG should be able to get the assistance of a second distinct military organization the Imperial Navy. This isn't chess, or a set piece battle this is "space marines attacking imperial guard"... not IG and IN, but just IG. There is no disputing that in a purely land battle IG win by shear number, no one is even arguing that, but it is to the exclusion of the Space Marines most significant resources.

Just to further emphasize the separation, the fluff says the gap between Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard is an intentional measure to prevent a rogue leader of either from having overly significant ability to wage war. The IN without the IG can't really seize anything and the IG without the IN can't travel beyond their current planet. This is by design, for the same reason SM were broken into chapters, so no one person could wield that kind of military might.

aka_mythos wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
Nothing the Space Marines can really put forth will overcome those sorts of odds, at least consistently.

SM independent of any other military force, has its own battlefleets and their own capability to implement Exterminatus. The Imperial Guard do not.

Some keep insisting that if SM can bring their full Chapter, which includes their ships, that the IG should be able to get the assistance of a second distinct military organization the Imperial Navy. This isn't chess, or a set piece battle this is "space marines attacking imperial guard"... not IG and IN, but just IG. There is no disputing that in a purely land battle IG win by shear number, no one is even arguing that, but it is to the exclusion of the Space Marines most significant resources.

Just to further emphasize the separation, the fluff says the gap between Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard is an intentional measure to prevent a rogue leader of either from having overly significant ability to wage war. The IN without the IG can't really seize anything and the IG without the IN can't travel beyond their current planet. This is by design, for the same reason SM were broken into chapters, so no one person could wield that kind of military might.

In order to have a "vs" theoretical debate, you must frame the entire idea around the two forces being able to fight. Since the Imperial Guard cannot fight the Marines in space, then you can't in all fairness look to that to be your ace in the hole. Saying the Space Marines would defeat the Guard in space is redundant. It would be like saying the Guard would defeat the Marines on land. Statistically, it's pretty much the same.

Alpharius wrote:These threads are beyond goofy.

If the all the Space Marines somehow decided to rebel and fight all of the Imperial Guard... everyone will lose!

It is 'game over' for the Imperium at that point...

True. And they are almost always over (like this one) by the first page, as far as answering the OP goes. After that it becomes a mixture of circular arguments and further and further tangents from the originally proposed hypothetical.

KplKeegan wrote:During the first couple weeks of an invasion, the Space Marines would seem to be winning due to their effortless insertions and precision force, but the shock would fade and the Marines would slowly be ground down underneath bodies, bullets, treads, and shells. They could be the most Badassed Super Humans of All Time, but the numbers would simply overwhelm them to the point of multiple last stand scenarios.

Pretty much.

It's quite straightforward. The unified Astartes can only win if the following two factors are in effect: a) there's no Imperial Navy and b) the Guard remain scattered across the galaxy. In all and every other circumstance, they are washed away via attrition due to one thing and one thing only: numbers, if not on the ground (through men and tanks), then in space (through starships).

To think of (very) rough filmic scenarios that could be considered analogeous to how the conflict would go down, two that come to my mind is Shugart and Gordon's (SM) last stand at the Super Six-Four crash site against Somali militia (IG) in Black Hawk Down, and the conflict in general depicted between Leonidas and his Spartans (SM) against the Persians (IG) in 300.

Anfauglir wrote:To think of (very) rough filmic scenarios that could be considered analogeous to how the conflict would go down, two that come to my mind is Shugart and Gordon's (SM) last stand at the Super Six-Four crash site against Somali militia (IG) in Black Hawk Down, and the conflict in general depicted between Leonidas and his Spartans (SM) against the Persians (IG) in 300.

Not bad examples really. I think this thread is over. If someone claims the Marines would win, no matter how badly, then they won't be convinced the other way. Likewise, people who support the guard winning (me) will never be swayed that the Marines could win. At least I know I won't.

Melissia wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Transcontinental doesn't mean capable of hitting something as far away as the moon.

Actually I would say that it's harder to do transcontinental barrages than to hit something in space.

Lack of gravity and friction makes calculations quite easy, and you aren't trying to fire in such a way that the missile curves across a planet.

But the ICBMs would not have that problem anyway, and again, if the Marines have naval assets, so do the gaurd.

Melissia comes across an excellent point. you can indeed remove the Navy from the equation, leaving the Imperial guard planetside only. But in doing so, you also leave their planteary defense systems in place (as in Storm of Iron).

And yes the marines can drop anywhere, but in reality they have to drop into a meatgrinder. If they are going after the command HQ, the IG know it too and will set up killzones that make the Istvaan massacre look like walking a wiener dog. Like the roack motel the marines can check in, but they won't check out.