MarcoSkoll wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:No, the above suggested low male birth rate scenario would eventually turn into something like this, with reversed sexual dimorphism, due to natural selection.

Not at all likely, for reasons I've already expounded on at considerable length.

But to put it in simple terms: There are few plausible manners (that I am aware of) by which genetics would improve the physique of only women but not their male offspring. At present, I know of no ethnicity, country or race where the average height of women is greater than that of the equivalent men.

The only way I can think of would be a mutation of the Y chromosome that actually physically stunted male offspring. This could put a demand for better physical performance on the women (having to fight/hunt/etc) but they would still have to retain the essentials of childbearing - so they would still be handicapped on that front (and certainly wouldn't be able to go beyond what a similar demand for physical performance from a male population would create). Their build would also doubtless look pretty alien to us as far as what we would consider to be a woman. So we're still not getting the feminine lady Marines you want.

Also, I doubt that a population with such a major genetic defect would be suitable (or even considered) for Space Marine implantation, even if they had decided to try and make women marines.

Not necessarily. We're assuming a massive crash in the number of males per capita. Males become larger to compete for females. Since in this becomes no longer the case, and larger bodies are biologically expensive, males would slowly shrink over time, while women, to be biologically successful, would have to become larger and stronger.

BaronIveagh wrote:

MarcoSkoll wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:No, the above suggested low male birth rate scenario would eventually turn into something like this, with reversed sexual dimorphism, due to natural selection.

Not at all likely, for reasons I've already expounded on at considerable length.

But to put it in simple terms: There are few plausible manners (that I am aware of) by which genetics would improve the physique of only women but not their male offspring. At present, I know of no ethnicity, country or race where the average height of women is greater than that of the equivalent men.

The only way I can think of would be a mutation of the Y chromosome that actually physically stunted male offspring. This could put a demand for better physical performance on the women (having to fight/hunt/etc) but they would still have to retain the essentials of childbearing - so they would still be handicapped on that front (and certainly wouldn't be able to go beyond what a similar demand for physical performance from a male population would create). Their build would also doubtless look pretty alien to us as far as what we would consider to be a woman. So we're still not getting the feminine lady Marines you want.

Also, I doubt that a population with such a major genetic defect would be suitable (or even considered) for Space Marine implantation, even if they had decided to try and make women marines.

Not necessarily. We're assuming a massive crash in the number of males per capita. Males become larger to compete for females. Since in this becomes no longer the case, and larger bodies are biologically expensive, males would slowly shrink over time, while women, to be biologically successful, would have to become larger and stronger.

And then you destroy the population rendering it totally unable to continue. You would have to recruit thousands of women to go become marines. And since there is a large crash in the male population, you then get interbreeding and sorts of other fun stuff. Also with a crash in males, women would have to become more attractive in order to get a mate. Not become bigger and stronger.

Cliffs: Not gonna happen, would destroy population

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

DogOfWar wrote:Evidently there is a disparity between then novels and what GW wants to indicate. Perhaps to appeal to younger players?

That would be my guess as well.

DogOfWar wrote:Not necessary. But thank you for the offer.

Mk then.

BaronIveagh wrote:Males would slowly shrink over time, while women, to be biologically successful, would have to become larger and stronger.

As I just posted, the only part of genetics that is gender specific is the Y chromosome. Hence, other than a change there, anything that would affect the build of one gender would affect the build of the other. In short, that idea is genetically nonsense.

Also, as I said, the women are still handicapped by the necessity of being built for childbearing, which is not good for optimal physical strength. They are thus, while physically stronger than their ethnic male population, not capable of being stronger than what could be achieved by the males of a normally dimorphic population in the same environment.
And you seem to have missed that they wouldn't look like normal human women. Yes, they'd still be the childbearing gender, but so is a female gorilla.

This idea would not produce the svelte warrior ladies people want. I really do stress what I said in the first place - if you want your curvy lady soldiers, you need to find ways of boosting them that don't require turning them into parodies of Mr Universe. And geneseed implanted into some weird mutant female you've made up in order to avoid the idea they're not quite as strong as men soldiers is NOT that way.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Cliffs: Not gonna happen, would destroy population

So would a great number of other world concepts in 40k but they still live. Catachan and Cadia for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarcoSkoll wrote:Hence, other than a change there, anything that would affect the build of one gender would affect the build of the other.

The fact taht there are female-specific defects and conditions proves otherwise. Some genes could very easily remain dormant in a person with only one X gene while they become active in people with two.

Melissia wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Cliffs: Not gonna happen, would destroy population

So would a great number of other world concepts in 40k but they still live. Catachan and Cadia for example.

Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

If all that matters is the fanbase accepting it, then I assure you that it is not quite as hard a sell as you think it is. Sure, the hardcore fans might not accept it, but GW doesn't really care what they think anyway. They only care if it brings in new customers.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

Pay attention:

One: The idea was not that 'all the guys died' but rather 'all the guys were not born at all'.


Two: Against a planetary population, even one in the low millions, 'thouands' would not have a big impact.

Marco: there is the same level of genetic difference between a man and a woman as between a male anglerfish and a female anglerfish. Explain then why the female is something like 400 times the males size? Sexual dimorphism does not always translate into 'males are the biggest'. (Frogs and toads, broadly speaking, are another example, but not as dramatic)

Melissia wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

If all that matters is the fanbase accepting it, then I assure you that it is not quite as hard a sell as you think it is. Sure, the hardcore fans might not accept it, but GW doesn't really care what they think anyway. They only care if it brings in new customers.

Yeah, because little Timmy (GeeDubya's core market) really wants to buy a bunch of girls anyway? Why do you think the Sisters of Battle never get supported? Pro tip: 'cause they don't bring in new customers.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Melissia wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

If all that matters is the fanbase accepting it, then I assure you that it is not quite as hard a sell as you think it is. Sure, the hardcore fans might not accept it, but GW doesn't really care what they think anyway. They only care if it brings in new customers.

Err. Sorta.

What the company would ultimately want is a customer who is a "repeat buyer" of their products.

The more novels and figurines you consume, the better.

The tilt toward acquiring new customers is mostly probably to make-up for the population of people who leave the hobby.

Yes of course we can find people who play Warhammer into their 30s and 40s and beyond - but the diehards by definition are small and are slowly whittled away by attrition due to the vagaries of life (Career, Job, Boredom with the game, etc).


Incidentally, if there were a sudden noticeable influx of women who played Warhammer (around those golden teenage years) - i'm cynical enough to believe that we'd suddenly get a revelation a few years down the line that one of the two missing primarch's was the Emperor's Daughter or some such......tada the FSM is born.

...If only to capture precious market share.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Yeah, because little Timmy (GeeDubya's core market) really wants to buy a bunch of girls anyway? Why do you think the Sisters of Battle never get supported? Pro tip: 'cause they don't bring in new customers.

Vlad, a few points:

One: Marvel markets Wolverine and Ghost Rider to Timmy, as well, correct? I hate to point this out to you, but they also, and to a great deal of profit, made a female versions of both. So, yes, Timmy does indeed buy girls.

Two: Way off topic now.

Three: What if a sector synod somehow managed to get it's hands on geneseed (not really sure how this would work) and started a series of experiments on Sisters in an attempt to bypass the decree passive? It would definitely get the inquisitions attention, but might actually get condoned, depending on the views of the local conclave...

Melissia wrote:The fact that there are female-specific defects and conditions proves otherwise.

But how many of these are cases that they only occur in women instead of that they don't occur in men? (It sounds odd, but there is a difference.) I'm guessing very few, seeing as evolutionarily, the male gender is a mutation of the female.

Also, I'm deliberately ignoring any condition directly related to the reproductive system or its secondary matters (Suggesting that only women can get ovarian cancer does not count.)

BaronIveagh wrote:Sexual dimorphism does not always translate into 'males are the biggest'.

Fish don't have to shove half formed live offspring through their pelvis and their example is therefore completely irrelevant when talking about how humans have to be built in order to successfully reproduce.

MarcoSkoll wrote:Fish don't have to shove half formed live offspring through their pelvis and their example is therefore completely irrelevant when talking about how humans have to be built in order to successfully reproduce.

Ok, let me use a mammalian species as an example then: The laughing hyena. (Who, ironically give birth to whole litters of much more highly developed offspring than we do).

And, I still see no examples from you about how females being larger and stronger than males would affect human reproduction.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Yet these two are much more likely to be accepted by the fanbase than "hurr durr so like all the guys died so the marines had to get girls lol".

Pay attention:

One: The idea was not that 'all the guys died' but rather 'all the guys were not born at all'.

Whether or not the men were born, females still wouldn't be able to become Marines proper in the current fluff. Some tinkering by Bile or Slaanesh might create a suitable substitute, but it wouldn't be the same. So at best you could have a group of renegades that can pass as Marines.

Two: Against a planetary population, even one in the low millions, 'thouands' would not have a big impact.

Marco: there is the same level of genetic difference between a man and a woman as between a male anglerfish and a female anglerfish. Explain then why the female is something like 400 times the males size? Sexual dimorphism does not always translate into 'males are the biggest'. (Frogs and toads, broadly speaking, are another example, but not as dramatic)

Because those species lay eggs and are not mammals. Almost every mammalian species has males being slightly larger or the same size as females, and the change you're describing, with females becoming larger, would take thousands of years, in which time the Imperium would likely say; 'Hey, this planet is lacking in males. Let's move a few over from this hive planet, they won't miss them.'

Also, if the number of males were to fall drastically, the most likely result would be polygamy becoming standard again. Even logically, since one male can breed with multiple females, there's no reason why it wouldn't. Males are the ones who compete in nature, because the children the female bears can only have one father, while one father could have many children by many mates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

MarcoSkoll wrote:Fish don't have to shove half formed live offspring through their pelvis and their example is therefore completely irrelevant when talking about how humans have to be built in order to successfully reproduce.

Ok, let me use a mammalian species as an example then: The laughing hyena. (Who, ironically give birth to whole litters of much more highly developed offspring than we do).

And, I still see no examples from you about how females being larger and stronger than males would affect human reproduction.

The hyena is able to give birth to more developed offspring because the human body is terribly designed for childbirth, and a human baby is still relatively larger than a hyena pup.

Females becoming larger wouldn't affect reproduction directly. It would however cause damage to the females by damaging their pelvis, which isn't as solid as a male's because babies need to go through it, which could prevent them reproducing.

Durza wrote:
Whether or not the men were born, females still wouldn't be able to become Marines proper in the current fluff. Some tinkering by Bile or Slaanesh might create a suitable substitute, but it wouldn't be the same. So at best you could have a group of renegades that can pass as Marines.

This particular idea which is being gone over assumes that the SM chapter forced to recruit from this world would consider tampering with geneseed. Highly questionable, OH YES. But also not unknown.

Durza wrote:Almost every mammalian species has males being slightly larger or the same size as females, and the change you're describing, with females becoming larger, would take thousands of years, in which time the Imperium would likely say; 'Hey, this planet is lacking in males. Let's move a few over from this hive planet, they won't miss them.'

Notable exceptions including the Blue Whale, and the aforementioned hyena. And, again, the idea was that it was something environmental and omnipresent. It doesn't matter how many males you land, it's not genetic. Further, unless there's something worthwhile there to harvest, the Imperium really doesn't care, so long as the tithe is paid.

Durza wrote:
Also, if the number of males were to fall drastically, the most likely result would be polygamy becoming standard again. Even logically, since one male can breed with multiple females, there's no reason why it wouldn't. Males are the ones who compete in nature, because the children the female bears can only have one father, while one father could have many children by many mates.

Yes, but there also have to be enough males to compete. At 1 in 10, the ratio falls too low for that to be a factor, particularly because, this being a feral world, you'd have even fewer due to the usual infant mortality rates.

Durza wrote:
Females becoming larger wouldn't affect reproduction directly. It would however cause damage to the females by damaging their pelvis, which isn't as solid as a male's because babies need to go through it, which could prevent them reproducing.

Yes, but over time females with stronger hips would flourish where ones with easily broken hips die out. We're looking at a period of 20k years plus. That's slightly less time than separates us from the Cro-magnon.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Durza wrote:
Whether or not the men were born, females still wouldn't be able to become Marines proper in the current fluff. Some tinkering by Bile or Slaanesh might create a suitable substitute, but it wouldn't be the same. So at best you could have a group of renegades that can pass as Marines.

This particular idea which is being gone over assumes that the SM chapter forced to recruit from this world would consider tampering with geneseed. Highly questionable, OH YES. But also not unknown.

Would still be insanely difficult to pull off something of that magnitude, since emperor himself either couldn't or wouldn't adapt the geneseed to work on females. Though Bile does offer his services to anyone silly enough to take them, so I guess that's still an option if they didn't realise who he is.

Durza wrote:Almost every mammalian species has males being slightly larger or the same size as females, and the change you're describing, with females becoming larger, would take thousands of years, in which time the Imperium would likely say; 'Hey, this planet is lacking in males. Let's move a few over from this hive planet, they won't miss them.'

Notable exceptions including the Blue Whale, and the aforementioned hyena. And, again, the idea was that it was something environmental and omnipresent. It doesn't matter how many males you land, it's not genetic. Further, unless there's something worthwhile there to harvest, the Imperium really doesn't care, so long as the tithe is paid.

Something worthwhile like Space Marine recruits? It could work as an idea, but it would require a lot more depth than most people would be willing to read, and if you didn't include all those details you'd just get heckled by those who see girl marines as the harbingers of 40k doom.

Durza wrote:
Also, if the number of males were to fall drastically, the most likely result would be polygamy becoming standard again. Even logically, since one male can breed with multiple females, there's no reason why it wouldn't. Males are the ones who compete in nature, because the children the female bears can only have one father, while one father could have many children by many mates.

Yes, but there also have to be enough males to compete. At 1 in 10, the ratio falls too low for that to be a factor, particularly because, this being a feral world, you'd have even fewer due to the usual infant mortality rates.

If the number of males is falling so low that there aren't enough to mate with all the females, then the species dies out, simple as that. No amount of strong females would prevent it.

Durza wrote:
Females becoming larger wouldn't affect reproduction directly. It would however cause damage to the females by damaging their pelvis, which isn't as solid as a male's because babies need to go through it, which could prevent them reproducing.

Yes, but over time females with stronger hips would flourish where ones with easily broken hips die out. We're looking at a period of 20k years plus. That's slightly less time than separates us from the Cro-magnon.

And double the amount of time since the Heresy. You'd be roughly half way through the process if it started during it, and by then they'd really be a different species to humanity and wouldn't be allowed to become Space Marines any more than Ratlings and Ogryns.

Durza wrote:
Would still be insanely difficult to pull off something of that magnitude, since emperor himself either couldn't or wouldn't adapt the geneseed to work on females. Though Bile does offer his services to anyone silly enough to take them, so I guess that's still an option if they didn't realise who he is.

Interestingly enough, it's never been explained how they even determined it wouldn't work in the first place.

Durza wrote:
Something worthwhile like Space Marine recruits? It could work as an idea, but it would require a lot more depth than most people would be willing to read, and if you didn't include all those details you'd just get heckled by those who see girl marines as the harbingers of 40k doom.

Those will heckle anyway. I think this thread has pretty much proved that so far.

Durza wrote:
If the number of males is falling so low that there aren't enough to mate with all the females, then the species dies out, simple as that. No amount of strong females would prevent it.

Not every woman has children in the world as is. Eventually you end up with a situation where groups of women compete for males to avoid inbreeding.

Durza wrote:
And double the amount of time since the Heresy. You'd be roughly half way through the process if it started during it, and by then they'd really be a different species to humanity and wouldn't be allowed to become Space Marines any more than Ratlings and Ogryns.

Ehh... depends on how 'different' they actually are from baseline humans. Genetically speaking, they would most likely fall within the parameters of normal genetic drift. (Since we aren't talking Ogryns.) Granted, there are Inquisitors that will Exterminatus a planet because the natives have an odd hair color, but it would hardly be considered a mutation, since in all honesty, it's likely within the next 3k years that human dimorphism will fade, as civilization is making it less and less advantageous.

Too much insulting and going nowhere.

A poor effort, please do better.