Yes, it's this thread again. You know the one. The one that floats around every so often, and will probably continue to do so till the end of time. (OR GW releasing some minis again)
The Female Space Marine Thread
Here's my challenge. I'm well aware that some of you will thump your chests, and scream that female SM are impossible because fluff says so. Fluff sits down, and spells out marine biology to a fair thee well (albeit, using an explanation that is so far from how these things work in the real world as to make the tyranids look viable in reality by comparison).
My challenge to you, the gamers, is, how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon?
My solution was to use the Cursed Founding loophole, since it seems to have caused wild mutations in SM, and only a few chapters of the unknown number created are detailed.
Chapter: Morrigna
Doctor Thunder proposed that they might exist as a bio-weapon created by Fabius Bile.
Chapter: Black Widows
Think of it as a challenge to your creativity. How would you go about it without throwing canon to the wind?
"You have passed our tests, initiate. Now you will begin the true process of becoming a Space Marine. You will be faster, smarter, stronger, better than humanity in dozens of ways *cough*and your manly bits fall off and you grow girl boobs.*cough*
nomsheep wrote:
on topic: always rememeber that slaneesh has a fondness for bewbs that rivals even mine. (btw this a joke)
I'm almost certain that if there is a way to make female space marines or space marine 'traps' slannesh can and will do it.
Yes, I'm sure your fondness for them far out does slaanesh. Anyway, So, we're more or less going with 'CSM boobs are from Slaanesh."
Nice, but this isn't just about boobs, this is about women becoming Space Marines.
For loyalists, what about one of the various alternate SM creation processes, such as used by Blood Angels, who don't seem to get implanted at all, but rather use what sounds like a virus to become SM. In past fluff, women have taken on SM like characteristics, granted, without becoming SM, from even low exposure to BA blood. What would being put through the entire process do?
And what about that daemon turning a woman temporarily into a khornate SM in that iron warriors novel?
For loyalists, what about one of the various alternate SM creation processes, such as used by Blood Angels, who don't seem to get implanted at all, but rather use what sounds like a virus to become SM. In past fluff, women have taken on SM like characteristics, granted, without becoming SM, from even low exposure to BA blood. What would being put through the entire process do?
Where is this from?
BA go through the same process as every other marine chapter AFAIK.
And what about that daemon turning a woman temporarily into a khornate SM in that iron warriors novel?
And what about that daemon turning a woman temporarily into a khornate SM in that iron warriors novel?
Never heard of this either...
I think he means that bit in Storm of Iron where one of their female captives is coaxed into letting her rage consume her, such that a demon manifests through her.
purplefood wrote:
Where is this from?
BA go through the same process as every other marine chapter AFAIK.
Pick up your current BA codex. Matt Ward has made some changes along the way...
As far as the woman, I'm now trying to remember where it was. She got the extended youth/life via a blood transfer, IIRC.
Never heard of this either...
Storm of Iron, it happens to a IG POW who gets kicked around by a khornate as a slave until her urge to kill him gets so strong that the daemon in his armor takes her as it's new host. and then walks around amount CSMs who fail to notice the difference...
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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Female missing Primarch
Not doable. Missing Primarchs both confirmed in fluff as men.
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Kanluwen wrote:It can't be.
You know, Kan, when you say things like that, it's usually followed by 'That's IMPOSSIBLE! NOOOOOOOOOOO!' and then the Heroes your one weakness to destroy you in a suitably spectacular manner.
Some chapter's gene-seed could have been irreparably altered to be incompatible wit the Y chromosome.
It turns out Space Marines are chaste not because of infertility, but because they choose not to. A space Marine (obviously a Space Wolf) impregnates a woman, and the child is a female-astartes hybrid, being about 6'10 and stronger than any human, but weaker than "standard" space marines.
A Space Wolf who has become a wulfen impregnates a fenrisian wolf...
BaronIveagh wrote:And what about that daemon turning a woman temporarily into a khornate SM in that iron warriors novel?
Never heard of this either...
I believe he's talking about one of the characters in Storm of Iron
Spoiler:
She was enslaved by the Iron Warriors and becomes the daemonic incarnation of bloodthirsty vengeance after putting on some CSM armour she was supposed to be cleaning. She also shows up later in the 3rd Ultramarines novel.
She certainly wouldn't be considered a female SM, though, just a possessed human in daemonic power armour.
Personally I don't have anything against female SM, but it's not terribly practical from a biological standpoint. Sure there are plenty of female characters in the game (assassins, inquisitors, SoBs) but none of them are huge, hulking brutes designed to be 8 foot tall shock troops. I suppose anything's possible, but the idea behind huge, muscle-bound women seems to only be appealing to those with... ahem... specific tastes?
Space Wolves don't turn into wolves when the turn into Wulfen...
The Wulfen have been described many times and it has been as a cross between man and wolf. Not one or the other.
DogOfWar wrote:
Personally I don't have anything against female SM, but it's not terribly practical from a biological standpoint. Sure there are plenty of female characters in the game (assassins, inquisitors, SoBs) but none of them are huge, hulking brutes designed to be 8 foot tall shock troops. I suppose anything's possible, but the idea behind huge, muscle-bound women seems to only be appealing to those with... ahem... specific tastes?
Personally I perfer medium, well built women with bulging brains. I find i have more to talk about with them.
As far as your other point: It's not 40k but I think I get the message across...
purplefood wrote:
Where is this from?
BA go through the same process as every other marine chapter AFAIK.
Pick up your current BA codex. Matt Ward has made some changes along the way...
Bollocks. It's been like that since at the very least the mini-dex.
It, by the way, is not a case of "Drinking from the cup turns you into an Astartes!".
Baal is a planet infested with mutants. Drinking from the cup generally "cures" the Aspirants of their mutations(nothing extremely "Oh dear God-Emperor, it's a mutant!" mind you, but still enough that the populace of Baal is referred to as "mutants"), and prepares them for the next batch of implants, etc and generally shapes them to look more like Sanguinius.
It's no different than the Space Wolves drinking a cocktail which kicks the Canis Helix into overdrive.
As far as the woman, I'm now trying to remember where it was. She got the extended youth/life via a blood transfer, IIRC
Are you sure it was somewhere? Are you sure it wasn't nowhere?
I cannot think of a single book with anything about an Astartes giving blood to anyone.
Never heard of this either...
Storm of Iron, it happens to a IG POW who gets kicked around by a khornate as a slave until her urge to kill him gets so strong that the daemon in his armor takes her as it's new host.
That's noting near the same thing as "a female Space Marine". It's a woman possessed by a Daemon within a suit of armor.
And it's worth noting that it is the only instance we have of such an idea.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Female missing Primarch
Not doable. Missing Primarchs both confirmed in fluff as men.
At least we're on the same page here.
Kanluwen wrote:It can't be.
You know, Kan, when you say things like that, it's usually followed by 'That's IMPOSSIBLE! NOOOOOOOOOOO!' and then the Heroes your one weakness to destroy you in a suitably spectacular manner.
And when people post things like this, it's usually followed by "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dog!".
You've gone out and posted "how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon".
It cannot be done. There are no recorded instances in the 40k universe of geneseed turning males into females--or giving them female characteristics.
Brother of the Snake-Prius gives some of his blood to the lady to help her survive the radiation. She lives a much longer life than her countrymen.
I don't think there is much point in making female Space Marines... Part of the Space Marines' 'thing' is that they are monk like. Now in some cases this is altered (Space Wolves) but in many cases it remains.
purplefood wrote:Space Wolves don't turn into wolves when the turn into Wulfen...
The Wulfen have been described many times and it has been as a cross between man and wolf. Not one or the other.
But being half human half wolf, they would be as likely to find a wolf attractive as a human, verdad?
purplefood wrote:Space Wolves don't turn into wolves when the turn into Wulfen... The Wulfen have been described many times and it has been as a cross between man and wolf. Not one or the other.
But being half human half wolf, they would be as likely to find a wolf attractive as a human, verdad?
purplefood wrote:Space Wolves don't turn into wolves when the turn into Wulfen...
The Wulfen have been described many times and it has been as a cross between man and wolf. Not one or the other.
But being half human half wolf, they would be as likely to find a wolf attractive as a human, verdad?
purplefood wrote:Brother of the Snake-Prius gives some of his blood to the lady to help her survive the radiation.
She lives a much longer life than her countrymen
Hmm... that might have been it. For some reason I keep thinking it's Blood Angels, but that matches the story I remember.
purplefood wrote:
I don't think there is much point in making female Space Marines...
Part of the Space Marines' 'thing' is that they are monk like.
Now in some cases this is altered (Space Wolves) but in many cases it remains.
The point is mostly that it's the one thing that other chapters are not doing. We have monk chapters, we have viking chapters, we have mongolian chapters, we have death worshiping goth chapters, we have mutant chapters (mostly blatantly stolen from mid-90's Marvel comics).
What we don't have is chapters for women.
Kanluwen wrote:
Are you sure it was somewhere? Are you sure it wasn't nowhere?
I cannot think of a single book with anything about an Astartes giving blood to anyone.
Source identified and Kan's argument here discarded.
Kanluwen wrote:
That's noting near the same thing as "a female Space Marine". It's a woman possessed by a Daemon within a suit of armor.
Kan, you and I have been over this one a dozen times. You insist because there was no implantation that it's not, I insist that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, dupes every CSM in the room that it's a duck, then you might as well call it a duck.
Kanluwen wrote:
You've gone out and posted "how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon".
It cannot be done. There are no recorded instances in the 40k universe of geneseed turning males into females--or giving them female characteristics.
Point of fact, we have no record of what 90% of the mutant chapters from the Cursed Founding's mutations were. Male - Female is a lot more believable a mutation than, say, the Human Torch Chapter (Flame Falcons), the two Wolverine Chapters (Black Dragons and Sons of Antaeus) or the Ghost Rider Chapter (Legion of the Damned). And, amusingly, the least likely to get purged (though I'm sure that recruiting might be a bit tough).
We also still have Thorians running around trying to replicate the Primarch Project (unsuccessfully so far). These are cannon events that basically throw the mechanisms of the development of a SM out the window, creating all sorts of exceptions. This loophole has more than enough room for FSMs, since it already gave us adamantium skeletoned regenerating SMs and the one chapter known to have gone over to Chaos is also odd even by Chaos standards...
Well the fact that it answers the question posed in this thread isn't wrong with it...
Eh, yeah, but making furry SM would derail the thread faster than CS Goto and Matt Ward writing Codex: Furry Female Loyalist Chaos Space Marines and GW putting it in print. Heads would explode and fetishists would come pouring out of the woodwork.
Well the fact that it answers the question posed in this thread isn't wrong with it...
Well it has a few inherent problems.
1) Motivation: Probably doesn't exist for a genetically altered blood crazed man wolf to try and reproduce with a very large and aggressive female wolf.
2) Possibility: Probably isn't possible considering they are probably sterile. Probably isn't possible considering one is a wolf and the other is an altered human.
purplefood wrote:Brother of the Snake-Prius gives some of his blood to the lady to help her survive the radiation.
She lives a much longer life than her countrymen
Hmm... that might have been it. For some reason I keep thinking it's Blood Angels, but that matches the story I remember.
purplefood wrote:
I don't think there is much point in making female Space Marines...
Part of the Space Marines' 'thing' is that they are monk like.
Now in some cases this is altered (Space Wolves) but in many cases it remains.
The point is mostly that it's the one thing that other chapters are not doing. We have monk chapters, we have viking chapters, we have mongolian chapters, we have death worshiping goth chapters, we have mutant chapters (mostly blatantly stolen from mid-90's Marvel comics).
What we don't have is chapters for women.
Because we don't need them.
Kanluwen wrote:
Are you sure it was somewhere? Are you sure it wasn't nowhere?
I cannot think of a single book with anything about an Astartes giving blood to anyone.
Source identified and Kan's argument here discarded.
Oh dear gosh, whatever will I do. I can't think of something from a one-off, rather mediocre book about Space Marines.
Man I'm slipping!
Kanluwen wrote:
That's noting near the same thing as "a female Space Marine". It's a woman possessed by a Daemon within a suit of armor.
Kan, you and I have been over this one a dozen times. You insist because there was no implantation that it's not, I insist that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, dupes every CSM in the room that it's a duck, then you might as well call it a duck.
We've not been over this one anytime as far as I can recall.
It is not a Chaos Space Marine. It is a Daemon possessing a woman, granting her the characteristics of a Chaos Space Marine.
That's like if you were to call a swan a duck, because they're both amphibious birds. It's not correct.
Kanluwen wrote:
You've gone out and posted "how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon".
It cannot be done. There are no recorded instances in the 40k universe of geneseed turning males into females--or giving them female characteristics.
Point of fact, we have no record of what 90% of the mutant chapters from the Cursed Founding's mutations were. Male - Female is a lot more believable a mutation than, say, the Human Torch Chapter (Flame Falcons), the two Wolverine Chapters (Black Dragons and Sons of Antaeus) or the Ghost Rider Chapter (Legion of the Damned). And, amusingly, the least likely to get purged (though I'm sure that recruiting might be a bit tough).
Did you read your reply?
It's silly.
We also still have Thorians running around trying to replicate the Primarch Project (unsuccessfully so far). These are cannon events that basically throw the mechanisms of the development of a SM out the window, creating all sorts of exceptions. This loophole has more than enough room for FSMs, since it already gave us adamantium skeletoned regenerating SMs and the one chapter known to have gone over to Chaos is also odd even by Chaos standards...
No it doesn't.
The Black Dragons are not "adamantium skeletoned regenerating SMs". They have ossifications resulting in the spines that are what made them so notably mutants.
What we need is for the Emperor to die, and in a surprise twist, come back as Malal.
We SHOULD have a female SM chapter, if for no better reason than it would put a female combat organization in the game that GW is less likely to abuse the way they do battle sisters.
BaronIveagh wrote:My challenge to you, the gamers, is, how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon?
As I argued a while ago, as only the High Lords can order the creation of a new chapter, the twelve of them would have to collectively decide to try something that nobody believes would work and which has a very high chance of offending an awful lot of people. So it's a bigger problem than just whether it can it be done biologically.
If you really have to do have your female super-soldiers, the best way to do it would to be to have them as pseudo-Marines.
The Imperium has more than one way of producing supersoldiers (see the various boosts possible in Imperial Assassins), which are known to work successfully on women (most Callidus, for example). And those methods might actually produce an end result that didn't look like Mr Universe in drag (seriously, look at female body builders. The results are not what most people want from their lady marines).
Performance wise, these female super-soldiers could be a pretty solid match for Marines. Sure, the actual mechanics would be different and they wouldn't technically be Space Marines (though might be well mistaken for them), but you'd be on more solid ground than "It... er... happened because of... I mean... in the 21st founding. Yes, that sounds good.". And to borrow your duck argument, they'd quack louder than a power armoured daemonhost.
Kanluwen wrote:
Oh dear gosh, whatever will I do. I can't think of something from a one-off, rather mediocre book about Space Marines.
Man I'm slipping!
Well, Kan, if just goes to show, be a snarky jackass at your own risk.
Kanluwen wrote:
We've not been over this one anytime as far as I can recall.
You might want to go back to the FFG forums and re-read the FSM thread there right before Deathwatch came out.
Kanluwen wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Point of fact, we have no record of what 90% of the mutant chapters from the Cursed Founding's mutations were. Male - Female is a lot more believable a mutation than, say, the Human Torch Chapter (Flame Falcons), the two Wolverine Chapters (Black Dragons and Sons of Antaeus) or the Ghost Rider Chapter (Legion of the Damned). And, amusingly, the least likely to get purged (though I'm sure that recruiting might be a bit tough).
Did you read your reply?
It's silly.
And, apparently air tight, since you don't bother to actually disprove it.
Kanluwen wrote:
No it doesn't.
The Black Dragons are not "adamantium skeletoned regenerating SMs". They have ossifications resulting in the spines that are what made them so notably mutants.
Kan, your ignorance of the subject is showing; I was talking about Sons of Antaeus, not Black Dragons.
That's nice and all, congrats. You've gotten me on a few points that I don't have memorized/handy to reference. Have fun with it, because you most certainly know it does not happen often.
That said:
The only reason this topic is continually brought up is people want to do what they know there is no way to justify it being done. Chaos Grey Knights and Tau immediately come to mind...
MarcoSkoll wrote:
As I argued a while ago, as only the High Lords can order the creation of a new chapter, the twelve of them would have to collectively decide to try something that nobody believes would work and which has a very high chance of offending an awful lot of people. So it's a bigger problem than just whether it can it be done biologically.
Technically true, however, in the past the Inquisition has highjacked the creation of a SM chapter for thier own ends before. The HLoT only decree that a SM will be formed for 'this' purpose, whatever it might be.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
If you really have to do have your female super-soldiers, the best way to do it would to be to have them as pseudo-Marines.
The Imperium has more than one way of producing supersoldiers (see the various boosts possible in Imperial Assassins), which are known to work successfully on women (most Callidus, for example). And those methods might actually produce an end result that didn't look like Mr Universe in drag (seriously, look at female body builders. The results are not what most people want from their lady marines).
The problem with that is that production of Super Soldiers since about m36 has been hit or miss, with a lot of 'miss'. (See Afriel Strain) There are also gland warriors, etc.
None of these are SM.
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Kanluwen wrote:That's nice and all, congrats. You've gotten me on a few points that I don't have memorized/handy to reference. Have fun with it, because you most certainly know it does not happen often.
See, Kan, this is what happens when you don't practice. You come in to troll a subject and get pimp slapped.
BaronIveagh wrote:Technically true, however, in the past the Inquisition has highjacked the creation of a SM chapter for thier own ends before.
And they'd have to make the same decision. Try something they don't think would work and risk offending all the same people. Plus the High Lords who wouldn't be best pleased to hear you'd wasted a load of geneseed just to see if you could have lady marines (which there aren't exactly good reasons to need to try!).
The Inquisition might theoretically have limitless power, but in practice Inquisitors have got to toe some lines if they don't want to find people going to a lot of trouble to make them dead.
The problem with that is that production of Super Soldiers since about m36 has been hit or miss, with a lot of 'miss'.
But not all of it is miss. As I said, Imperial assassins have all sorts of genetic, augmetic, bionic and chemical boosts, that while hard to come by, do prove successful.
In short, there is canonical precedent for producing SM like levels of performance (or better), but without the use of geneseed.
And it's dubious whether the Afriel Strain even really count as supersoldiers, as they were clones (or maybe selectively bred) of good soldiers, not an attempt to push humans past their limits. I'd say their bad luck comes from the general trope of clones getting a raw deal in sci-fi (with the suggestion that they're soulless abominations being common), not necessarily a commentary on the Imperium's ability to produce (non-identical) supersoldiers.
None of these are SM.
If you're prepared to accept a daemonhost as counting as an SM, then I can't see why a sufficiently boosted human couldn't also count. (Although obviously, the examples you gave weren't that boosted.)
MarcoSkoll wrote:And they'd have to make the same decision. Try something they don't think would work and risk offending all the same people. Plus the High Lords who wouldn't be best pleased to hear you'd wasted a load of geneseed just to see if you could have lady marines (which there aren't exactly good reasons to need to try!).
Actually the Thorians would probably try just that. In fluff they've been trying to replicate the Primarchs and the Living Saints of the SoB. I can't imagine that it's much of a stretch for one of them to say 'What if we combine the two?'
Further, my supposition was not that they would be directly trying to create female SM. Their attempt to remove the defects in the geneseed of certain chapters and create new Primarchs created some very unusual and potentially useful abilities in SM. Again, it's not hard to imagine radicals saying 'What if..." and ending up creating FSMs.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
The Inquisition might theoretically have limitless power, but in practice Inquisitors have got to toe some lines if they don't want to find people going to a lot of trouble to make them dead.
Again, Radicals think the ends justify the means. Thorians think that the Emperor will return and it doesn't matter what the High Lords think at that point.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
But not all of it is miss. As I said, Imperial assassins have all sorts of genetic, augmetic, bionic and chemical boosts, that while hard to come by, do prove successful.
In short, there is canonical precedent for producing SM like levels of performance (or better), but without the use of geneseed.
The problem is that they tend to also tend be short lived. Most assassins are placed in stasis between missions for this reason. Skittari can come close due to their augmentations, but the only canon group of super soldiers to equal or exceed the SM collectively is the Legio Custodes. The problem there is mass production, since each Custodian is, for all intents and purposes, custom enhanced. While this does mean that the process would allow for women to be enhanced, it would take decades if not centuries to build 1000 of them to make a chapter sized force.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
And it's dubious whether the Afriel Strain even really count as supersoldiers, as they were clones (or maybe selectively bred) of good soldiers, not an attempt to push humans past their limits. I'd say their bad luck comes from the general trope of clones getting a raw deal in sci-fi (with the suggestion that they're soulless abominations being common), not necessarily a commentary on the Imperium's ability to produce (non-identical) supersoldiers.
Actually, the Afriel strain were genetically engineered from what DNA from heroes of the Imperium was available. The process described in Last Chancers differs from Chapter Approved in that the troopers were engineered first, and then cloned to produce thousands of them based on a handful of templates. In Chapter Approved, they're literally cloning the heroes themselves. As far as being super soldiers, Lorii does survive the Last Chancers suicide mission, something only Kage, a psyker, has managed yet.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
If you're prepared to accept a daemonhost as counting as an SM, then I can't see why a sufficiently boosted human couldn't also count. (Although obviously, the examples you gave weren't that boosted.)
The problem is sufficiently boosting someone. So far, the Imperium hasn't really produced anything else that's both equivalent and viable in terms of cost to produce.
BaronIveagh wrote:My challenge to you, the gamers, is, how can it be done WITHOUT breaking canon?
This cannot be done.
The only way is to rationalize it is with Chaos. Chaos can do whatever it wants. The canon has always told us that the process only works on males. I mean, I'm not going to tell people how they should or shouldn't play a game about Space Marines versus Space Fungus, Space Fetishists and Space Bugs. But the canon is what it is. If canon is your concern, then there are no Ladymarines.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The only way is to rationalize it is with Chaos. Chaos can do whatever it wants. The canon has always told us that the process only works on males. I mean, I'm not going to tell people how they should or shouldn't play a game about Space Marines versus Space Fungus, Space Fetishists and Space Bugs. But the canon is what it is. If canon is your concern, then there are no Ladymarines.
Well, I can't argue with that, as it's implied that Chaos was a major player in the creation of the Cursed Founding, and therefor, even the loophole that I have pointed out does, in fact, have it's roots in chaos. However, it should be pointed out that this has not made the chapters created any more or less loyalist than any other founding.
So, again, the possibility of loyalist FSMs does not break canon. (If only because the Inquisition has never ordered the extermination of all those chapters created in that founding.)
Yeah, but the Cursed Founding doesn't really offer a loophole. Hence the Flame Falcons or the Blood Gorgons. I'm fairly certain that mutating into women would be considered a pretty serious flaw. The Inquisition didn't order all of them exterminated, but it certainly wasn't hesitant to either.
If it is a serious aberration, it's a mutation and would be culled. We're not talking about extra boniness like the Black Dragons, and the Inquisition seems to hate them pretty well and good. This is complete sexual reversal. It would not only be distressingly and irredeemably heretical, but also even more physiologically impossible than the Marine process in the first place.
purplefood wrote:Brother of the Snake-Prius gives some of his blood to the lady to help her survive the radiation.
She lives a much longer life than her countrymen.
There's so much conceptually wrong with this idea, but I guess it can be hand-waved as "it's a fatnasy sci-fi setting". Though I do find it amusing that the TS took issue with the descriptions of how Space Marine physiology works, but not with this idea.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If it is a serious aberration, it's a mutation and would be culled. We're not talking about extra boniness like the Black Dragons, and the Inquisition seems to hate them pretty well and good. This is complete sexual reversal. It would not only be distressingly and irredeemably heretical, but also even more physiologically impossible than the Marine process in the first place.
Looks at Black Dragons. Looks at CSMs. Looks at Black Dragons. Looks at CSMs. I dunno, something tells me that sprouting horns and spikes might be much more disconcerting to the Inquisition than changing gender.
Further, we neglect the possibility that the geneseed was otherwise normal (or, more interesting, had some other unusual property that made it seem worthwhile), save that it had an inversion of the gender requirement for successful implantation. As someone earlier commented, no one would wish to waste all that geneseed....
Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's so much conceptually wrong with this idea, but I guess it can be hand-waved as "it's a fatnasy sci-fi setting". Though I do find it amusing that the TS took issue with the descriptions of how Space Marine physiology works, but not with this idea.
Didn't say that I don't have a problem with how that works. But I'll gleefully point it out if it shuts Kan up. Every time I try to start a serious discussion of the possibility of FSMs without breaking canon and try to get people to brainstorm about how it might be workable within the confines of canon, he tries to derail it. If it's really impossible, then no one would ever be able to come up with ways it might work, without help from the people thumping on their home-made Codex Astartes and decrying it as impossible.
Maybe not space marines but we could use more ladies in warhammer, ones that actually resemble real women as apposed slaneeshi sluts, frua helda types, and sexy nuns. In all of the series put together I haven’t read a dialogue between two(normal, as in don't kiss each other) women. The closest that came to a normal woman was in First Heretic, Serene actually seemed normal, sincerely cared for those around her, had interest in men, and was respected by the men around her.
The only way to do so is to change canon in some manner. Be it the Geneseed mutated so that it only works on females ( How the hell would they know this? They would never try it. ) Or to state it could always work on ladies. The Big E just didn't do it.
Personally in my own game I break SM canon to hell and back and have SM's breed in Gene wombs and have male and female SM. The whole "Implate an organ" thing was always a bit too odd for me.
To be honest, I was hoping that they'd exspand of test slave gene seed thing, make it even more grim dark with gene seed being made out of harvested humans.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Some chapter's gene-seed could have been irreparably altered to be incompatible wit the Y chromosome.
It turns out Space Marines are chaste not because of infertility, but because they choose not to. A space Marine (obviously a Space Wolf) impregnates a woman, and the child is a female-astartes hybrid, being about 6'10 and stronger than any human, but weaker than "standard" space marines.
A Space Wolf who has become a wulfen impregnates a fenrisian wolf...
I think that my reaction can be summed up in one video
Dear god why?
As for the subject of Female Space Marines, yes if the Admech really set it's mind to it I'm sure they could find out a way, but honestly is it really worth the effort? Half of the Imperium's child population is still quadrillions of people at the very least, and even if only tiny fraction of them are suitable for geneseeding that's still more than enough to make sure the Imperium has more or less enough space marines to go around. It could be done but the sheer population of the IoM makes pouring needed the resources into such a task wasteful even if it wouldn't be classified as heresy on the spot.
I see no reason why not. Geneseed is prone to corruption. Growing breasts and other such strangeness would be less peculiar than the scaly Firedrakes Chapter.
Steelmage99 wrote:I'm fine with female space marines.
Just realize they will look like this;
The fascination with "bulging" breast-plates is simply pre-pubescent hormones running wild.
You will grow out of it.....and the sooner the better.
I grew out of it a long time ago, though exactly when it's hard to say, though I like to think it was the first time I fell asleep during an artillery barrage.
Also, they would not quite look like that. See the Morrigana picture at the beginning of the thread. Proportions would be slightly different still compared to a male SM, even taking into account the alterations in muscle mass and size.
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Presumably, any women who got Space Marine'd would lose any real noticeable female characteristics anyway.
There would still be some characteristics, mostly in the proportions of the body. Remember that women can be every bit as strong as a man, without bulging like one, so to speak. I'll phrase this carefully so that I don't have the 'bulging breastplate' crowd crowing, but just like some space marines are taller or larger than others (just becasue the minis are all the same size does not translate into the SM all being the same size) there will likely be women who retain more female characteristics than others.
Melissia wrote:Bah, and here I was hoping you were going to ask us to say extra heretical things.
Like "I think Lorgar was right, he just went about being right in the wrong way."
LOL, I like that one.
"The Ultramarines have a Librarian who's half eldar". (Extra heretical and ALSO once canon.)
BaronIveagh wrote:Actually the Thorians would probably try just that. In fluff they've been trying to replicate the Primarchs and the Living Saints of the SoB. I can't imagine that it's much of a stretch for one of them to say 'What if we combine the two?'
It actually is a stretch. There's no reason to start with the Sororitas saints - there have been plenty of male saints in the Imperial creed (both living and posthumous), so if they were going to decide to combine Primarch and Saint, then that would be the place to start.
The problem is that they tend to also tend be short lived. Most assassins are placed in stasis between missions for this reason.
I'm pretty sure it's only the Eversors that have to be kept in stasis, and that's because they're frothing psychopaths who would murder everyone if they weren't locked up.
While this does mean that the process would allow for women to be enhanced, it would take decades if not centuries to build 1000 of them to make a chapter sized force.
I'd say that's a fairly normal time span for the foundation of a chapter. Candidates aren't the easiest to come by (they tend to get only a handful per year), it's several years to implant, some time to train... decades or centuries after the start of creation sounds an entirely likely time to take to reach full fighting strength.
The problem is sufficiently boosting someone. So far, the Imperium hasn't really produced anything else that's both equivalent and viable in terms of cost to produce.
I agree that it's not entirely practical. However, it is more plausible than a cop-out "geneseed mutation" answer. The chance that such a mutation would do something like that and they'd then think "Shoot. This geneseed doesn't work. You know what, before we incinerate it for being impure, let's see if it works it in women instead. Well, dang - whadda you know? We've got a woman who's so incredibly bulky and muscular that she looks like a man".
And I'm not sure it's a good idea to go with "The geneseed turned them into women", because the idea of a transgender Space Marine chapter is only going to get even weirder looks.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:It turns out Space Marines are chaste not because of infertility, but because they choose not to. A space Marine (obviously a Space Wolf) impregnates a woman, and the child is a female-astartes hybrid, being about 6'10 and stronger than any human, but weaker than "standard" space marines.
That would work about as much as a guy with a pacemaker and a hip replacement impregnating a woman and the baby being born with a pacemaker and a hip replacement.
It's all implants (albeit organic ones), and wouldn't have any effect on the genetics of the Marine's gametes. Lamarckian evolution has long since been disproven!
BaronIveagh wrote: Remember that women can be every bit as strong as a man, without bulging like one, so to speak. I'll phrase this carefully so that I don't have the 'bulging breastplate' crowd crowing, but just like some space marines are taller or larger than others (just becasue the minis are all the same size does not translate into the SM all being the same size) there will likely be women who retain more female characteristics than others.
I don't know about this.
Remember we're dealing biologically with the physical peak of the human body, minus augmetics/daemonic influence/etc. Even female bodybuilders here in 2012 lose many of what many consider 'feminine' characteristics (breasts, swell of the hips, narrowing of the waist and neck, facial features, etc) as they become more muscular. In fact, the body of a female bodybuilder can often be mistaken for a male at times (minus the obvious) and this is within the bounds of our technology. Throw in the progenoid mutations and vastly accelerated muscle/bone growth and I think you'll be hard pressed to see any 'feminine' characteristics at all.
Steelmage has it right. Nothing wrong with female Space Marines as long as you realize they'll just look like more masculine versions of Sanguinius.
I'm inclined to agree with DogOfWar. Most female weightlifters and bodybuilders end up very masculine.
And the statement that women can be as strong holds very little water. The best female weightlifting performance at the 2008 Olympics was a total weight of 326 kg. That year's performance in the appropriate bodyweight category for the men was 461 kg, over 40% more.
If you want feminine supersoldiers, you need to approach methods that don't hyper-masculinise the individual. And if you want them to match the men, you need to do something different, more radical.
@Melissia: In statline, yes. But we're talking in fluff, not the abstracted numbers of gameplay that don't have the granularity to show the difference.
Kanluwen wrote:
That's noting near the same thing as "a female Space Marine". It's a woman possessed by a Daemon within a suit of armor.
Kan, you and I have been over this one a dozen times. You insist because there was no implantation that it's not, I insist that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, dupes every CSM in the room that it's a duck, then you might as well call it a duck.
If you didn't go through the Astartes creation process, then you aren't an Astartes. Kor Phaeron was enhanced to be [more than] a physical match for any of the Word Bearers, and is one of the two highest-ranking members of the Legion. He uses Astartes armor, Astartes weapons, and Astartes tactics, but he himself is not an Astartes.
I still say it ultimately comes down to necessity. The primary advantage of recruiting both sexes is that it roughly doubles the number of available soldiers. This is a good idea for the Imperial Guard or the PDF, which require strength of numbers to deal with most of the major powers in the galaxy. On the same token creating female space marines would only ever be done if there was a need for more bodies, and quite frankly throwing meat into the grinders until they jam is not what the Space Marines do. And there is no real sign that the supply of hard boys in the imperium is going to be running out any time soon. The Imperium has nothing if not large supplies of manpower and it would have to be in truly dire straits to need to funnel resources into trying to make female space marines work, and even then, wouldn't said resources be better funnelled towards creating more tried and tested weapons?
MarcoSkoll wrote:I'm inclined to agree with DogOfWar. Most female weightlifters and bodybuilders end up very masculine.
And the statement that women can be as strong holds very little water. The best female weightlifting performance at the 2008 Olympics was a total weight of 326 kg. That year's performance in the appropriate bodyweight category for the men was 461 kg, over 40% more.
If you want feminine supersoldiers, you need to approach methods that don't hyper-masculinise the individual. And if you want them to match the men, you need to do something different, more radical.
@Melissia: In statline, yes. But we're talking in fluff, not the abstracted numbers of gameplay that don't have the granularity to show the difference.
In addition, female weightlifters/bodybuilders end up masculine because of a mix of different steroids like Test, Anavar, and also I believe some IGF-1. Basically stuff that increases testosterone produced. However, even with those additions the best (biggest) women bodybuilders wouldn't even place in a male bodybuilding competition and that's saying a lot. But yeah, women and men are very different on the physical scale.
In any case, I always saw the Sisters of Battle as the feminine super soldiers.
Kain wrote:I still say it ultimately comes down to necessity. The primary advantage of recruiting both sexes is that it roughly doubles the number of available soldiers. This is a good idea for the Imperial Guard or the PDF, which require strength of numbers to deal with most of the major powers in the galaxy. On the same token creating female space marines would only ever be done if there was a need for more bodies, and quite frankly throwing meat into the grinders until they jam is not what the Space Marines do. And there is no real sign that the supply of hard boys in the imperium is going to be running out any time soon. The Imperium has nothing if not large supplies of manpower and it would have to be in truly dire straits to need to funnel resources into trying to make female space marines work, and even then, wouldn't said resources be better funnelled towards creating more tried and tested weapons?
THe only time i can see it being nessacary to recruit females and try to implant them is if the sm chapter is terribly mauled and can't get home. and then land on a planet where only women exist.
Kain wrote:I still say it ultimately comes down to necessity. The primary advantage of recruiting both sexes is that it roughly doubles the number of available soldiers. This is a good idea for the Imperial Guard or the PDF, which require strength of numbers to deal with most of the major powers in the galaxy. On the same token creating female space marines would only ever be done if there was a need for more bodies, and quite frankly throwing meat into the grinders until they jam is not what the Space Marines do. And there is no real sign that the supply of hard boys in the imperium is going to be running out any time soon. The Imperium has nothing if not large supplies of manpower and it would have to be in truly dire straits to need to funnel resources into trying to make female space marines work, and even then, wouldn't said resources be better funnelled towards creating more tried and tested weapons?
THe only time i can see it being nessacary to recruit females and try to implant them is if the sm chapter is terribly mauled and can't get home. and then land on a planet where only women exist.
NOm
And even if they try, they'd need some awfully lenient techmarines and apothecaries to even consider this course of action. Being hide-bound to tradition sucks like that.
And even then I'm pretty sure they'd become the laughing stock of the rest of the Adeptus Astartes if not outright declared exocommunicatus traitoris.
I wouldn't call a one third lesser upper body strength and a 20% reduction in cardiac volume "trivial and unimportant".
The Imperial commanders might not care very much - just an extra body to throw into the breach - but it still represents a very significant difference in a soldier's performance. Women can't run as far or fast, and they can't carry as much equipment while doing so. The concept I've seen around the place that "lesser strength doesn't matter, the gun's doing all the damage" is very misguided.
I wouldn't call a one third lesser upper body strength and a 20% reduction in cardiac volume "trivial and unimportant".
It is when compared to the strength of a rampaging Ork, for example, a very common enemy.
If we're talking about soldiers, they're not going to have that big of a difference to begin with. If we're talking about supersoldiers, then it's irrelevant because the implants change the way the body grows to begin with.
I wouldn't call a one third lesser upper body strength and a 20% reduction in cardiac volume "trivial and unimportant".
It is when compared to the strength of a rampaging Ork, for example, a very common enemy.
In gameplay terms, sure. S3, T3 for both women and men, no difference.
However, while 40k fluff does a great job of equalling the sexes in terms of combat, the realism of such equality is unlikely. Unless you subject the females to testosterone injections, genetic modification or some kind of augmetic surgery, they are going to be less effective in combat, physically.
There's nothing that says they can't be just as good of a shot as a male with any weapon, but the reality is that you have to lug that weapon, plus your pack, plus whatever else to the firefight before you can start shooting. And while modern soldiers don't usually get into swirling melees, the physical limitations of female soldiers would be immediately apparent in terms of exhaustion and upper body strength, even compared to male soldiers of equal body mass. Again, we're talking averages. There are probably quite a few women who can keep up with the average Marine, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.
Long story short, yes, the physical differences matter greatly, regardless of the situation (charging Ork or not), but it's possible (and would be almost essential for an effective 50/50 fighting force) that the Imperium has negated those differences via biological or chemical means.
BaronIveagh wrote:Further, we neglect the possibility that the geneseed was otherwise normal (or, more interesting, had some other unusual property that made it seem worthwhile), save that it had an inversion of the gender requirement for successful implantation. As someone earlier commented, no one would wish to waste all that geneseed...
That someone else is allowed to be confused as well.
Let's be realistic. The precedent has been pretty firmly carved in stone that gene seed is only precious to Space Marines, not to the Imperium's various agencies. The Inquisition doesn't care about how much geneseed is lost if they feel that seed represents heresy, corruption, or other tangible or intangible threat to the Imperium. The excommunicate entire chapterson occasion. Suffer not the unclean to live and all that. The AdMech isn't going to care either. They can always get more from the Ultramarines and their successors and know that it's probably going to be good. The Salamanders being black is one thing. And honestly, you only reinforce my point by saying the Black Dragons are too chaosy. The Inquisition is incredibly suspicious of them, but at least they are otherwise normal Space Marines.
Remember that women can be every bit as strong as a man, without bulging like one
Heh. That's a funny story. Tell us another one. Are we talking about at 125 pounds? Okay, maybe. If we're talking actual men with real man strength and size, not a chance. At the size and bulk of Space Marines? Absolutely impossible. The process which creates Space Marines make normal men look tiny and weak by comparison. It's going to absolutely obliterate any kind of feminine proportions and features, and the training regimen will eliminate any that sneak through. Unless we're giving all the Ladymarines boob jobs like the big time female bodybuilders get so people aren't confused. If you thought Sisters of Battle were ugly, brutish women in everything but the fantasies of 40K artists, female Space Marines will be downright hideous, at least from a sexual attractiveness standpoint. "That" demographic exempted, lol. The process of being a Space Marine involved a broadening and deepening of the chest cavity, as well as denser bones, and more squared facial features as the cranium gets wider and thicker. At what point do you think any "feminine" characteristics are going to survive that, lol. I mean, I guess unless you like brutish looking, square faced women with barrel chests and no boobs and shaved heads. In that case, then yes, I guess they will be feminine.
Melissia wrote:It is when compared to the strength of a rampaging Ork, for example, a very common enemy.
That's a total strawman. The fact they're both feeble compared to an Ork does not mean that the differences are not still significant.
The difference between the mass of a cocker spaniel and an elephant might be trivial compared to the mass of the Earth, but I know that getting sat on by each would be significantly different.
I've explained why the physical differences between men and women are significant, and this applies 40k as it does today - the requirement to lug around as much combat gear as far and fast as possible will remain relevant in the future.
While after augmentation, things might be different - but that brings the caveat of less physical performance difference also meaning less gender dimorphism (as it's that dimorphism that causes the performance difference), and that's not something that the proponents of lady Marines want.
nomsheep wrote:Or 38,000 years of evoloution has done that for us.
That's not how evolution works. You need an evolutionary pressure to cause changes like that to happen, and if there were an evolutionary pressure that against the physically weak, it would affect both genders. Even if the specifics were so fine tuned that the evolutionary pressure was much more lethal to women than to men, those women would be passing on their genetic advantages to both their male and female offspring.
Also, 38kY is pitiful on an evolutionary timescale for a species that takes as long to reach sexual maturity as humans. That's only about 2000 generations, assuming some degree of taste as far as what you consider breeding age.
Kain wrote: wouldn't said resources be better funnelled towards creating more tried and tested weapons?
This is really the nuts and bolts of it.
Nobody in the Imperium really knows how the process works anymore. And there's no incentive to "test" the process on women just to see if it is possible. There's no shortage of male babies being born, and even with the low compatibility rate, the sheer numbers are still sufficient. The classic "if it ain't broke" philosophy. And the Imperium has no reason to have some kind of silly equal opportunity program.
Say 14 is breeding age (since it gets lower every year :/
With focus shifting from women being in the home (cooking etc ) and to them doing exactly what men do, then surely the difference between the strengths of the genders would eventually begin to even out.
It's funny because I've just been arguing in the next thread down about the sandbox nature of 40k versus lots of other "closed" sci fi universes, and this is THE primary example of the 40k sandbox in action: the female space marine. Sure it contradicts a LOT of stuff in the fluff, and it's pretty roundly shouted down whenever it's brought up. But if somebody really wanted to, they could make an army and whatever backstory they want, and it's not like I wouldn't still play a match against them.
As for the actual topic of the thread, there are two ways I could see it going:
First, Fabius bile alters the geneseed to such an extent that female aspirants are viable. Total heresy, but what does he care? And Slaanesh loves it, and favors them, and a whole warband is slowly formed where the "women" rise to the top and eventually exclude the male marines. Et voila, female CSM warband. Not only do I find this plausible, it could be kind of awesome if well executed.
Second, the missing primarch route. I know there's a line dropped in a Horus Heresy novel that sorta rules this out, but if someone makes the army, I'm willing to overlook it. I personally don't buy it, but I also don't like all the recent hemming in of the mystery surrounding the missing primarchs. Pushback against that is welcome if you ask me, even if I think it's totally ridiculous lol.
nomsheep wrote:Say 14 is breeding age (since it gets lower every year)
I said "Some degree of taste". Dividing 38kY down into a round two thousand generations gives a reasonable-ish generation of 19 years. It's shorter than I think is quite right, as this has to allow for the average breeding age (taking into account how second, third, etc children affects that), not just how young it's possible to have children.
With focus shifting from women being in the home (cooking etc ) and to them doing exactly what men do, then surely the difference between the strengths of the genders would eventually begin to even out.
No. As I've already said, there is no such thing as Lamarckian evolution. Traits that were gained in life do NOT get passed on to offspring, only genetics do.
Evolution is the process of natural selection, and requires something affecting the likelihood of successfully passing on genetics. This usually tends to be "dying because you weren't good enough". And in practice, there aren't a lot of women horribly dying because they aren't physically up to doing traditionally male jobs.
And even if they were, their genetics get passed to both genders of their children - an evolutionary pressure that targets just women would affect men too.
Also, you think that moving out of the kitchen will make life tough enough to evolve humans? We've got millions of years of ancestry where every single day was a struggle against predators and you think that not being housewives is going to beef up women where that couldn't?
Ultimately, it's completely physically impossible for women and men to do the same thing. We cannot evolve to a state of physical gender parity, as women have to be anatomically capable of childbirth, which puts them at a distinct performance advantage. Humans have already evolved to a point that best ensures the continuation of our genetic heritage under much harsher conditions than even the 41st millennium offers. Trying to rebuild women in a way to improve their performance as soldiers (at best, a minor evolutionary pressure) would dramatically hinder them in bearing children (the ultimate evolutionary pressure, as if you can't give birth, you can't pass on your genetics) and overall worsen the chance of their genetics being passed on. Hence, humans will not evolve in that direction.
Okay, in theory, the childbirth requirement could be removed with artificial wombs, but we know these (while possible) are not at all common in the 41st millennium, and are thus far too insignificant to have an effect on the overall genome of the human race.
The last thing to say is that if you could evolve to this point, you'd just end up with the women looking like men, negating everything that people want from this discussion.
Anyway, we know from the rare occurrence of females in GW model ranges and art that human gender dimorphism still exists in the 41st millennium, and thus the performance differences that are a consequence of that will remain in kind.
TL;DR: Humans cannot evolve (and, based on the art, haven't) to a state of equal gender performance at all, let alone in so pitifully few generations.
Evolution has nothing to do with Astartes. They are a created race. And honestly with combat drugs, enhanced systems and Power armor and the selection process itself, the difference really does not amount to a whole hell of a lot.
Yes, but the important thing to say is "no gender performance difference = no gender dimorphism". So if your lady Marines have the same physical performance as male Marines, they'll also look exactly like them.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Evolution has nothing to do with Astartes. They are a created race. And honestly with combat drugs, enhanced systems and Power armor and the selection process itself, the difference really does not amount to a whole hell of a lot.
Apparently everyone missed my post.
However, even with those additions the best (biggest) women bodybuilders wouldn't even place in a male bodybuilding competition and that's saying a lot.
Here's the deal; women bodybuilders take a crap-ton of AAS and hormones. So do male bodybuilders. But even though women take a fairly comparable amount, even the most amazing female bodybuilder wouldn't even have a snowball's chance in hell of placing in a Mr. Olympia.
Also, the problem is that there's still a difference, just as you mentioned. Even if it's a small difference, why bother? Why not just get a male who's actually capable of becoming an Astartes and then go with that? Why get something that is weaker, even if only by a tiny bit?
Also, the problem is that there's still a difference, just as you mentioned. Even if it's a small difference, why bother? Why not just get a male who's actually capable of becoming an Astartes and then go with that? Why get something that is weaker, even if only by a tiny bit?
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
Because you want soldiers, not strong men. Soldier is not all grunt lifting, they can do the same job, they may not be a strong, but are likely to be cunning, more agile, faster and with a far better grasp of small details. The SM are take the very best, not just the very strongest.
I don't know why people are still arguing against Marco's iron-clad logic. I'm starting to think they don't understand all the big words. Perhaps a Cliff's Notes version?
Women + Geneseed = lots of work to create women with no boobs, that look just like the men, and only match the men's performance or just slightly underperform. Why?
MarcoSkoll wrote:an evolutionary pressure that targets just women would affect men too.
This is not necessarily the case, as proven by the existence of medical conditions and mutations that are unique or near-unique to women.
While it is true that there is very little genetic difference between a male and a female, Astartes fanboys claim that this relaively insignificant difference is enough to disqualify all women, and therefor it must count for quite a bit in 40k (given that men of entirely different families and thus far less related than a brother and sister would be are able to both become Astartes).
Games Workshop does not employ geneticists or even biologists. They don't know what they're talking about; they haven't the faintest idea and they're really just pulling pop culture "science" nonsense out of their asses, and you shouldn't look too deeply in to it. Suffice it to say, humans in 40k are VERY different from humans in the real world. the martial difference between the two is not so great in 40k, because 40k runs on rule of cool rather than physics.
Also, the problem is that there's still a difference, just as you mentioned. Even if it's a small difference, why bother? Why not just get a male who's actually capable of becoming an Astartes and then go with that? Why get something that is weaker, even if only by a tiny bit?
Kind Regards, Vladsimpaler
Because you want soldiers, not strong men. Soldier is not all grunt lifting, they can do the same job, they may not be a strong, but are likely to be cunning, more agile, faster and with a far better grasp of small details. The SM are take the very best, not just the very strongest.
A man is also likely (on average) to be more agile and faster then a woman. Even with the implants. And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor. The intense amount of testosterone and other drugs going into making a woman an Astartes would just be better used on a man in the first place.
As for far better to grasp small details, perhaps make women into Space Marine scouts?
Vladsimpaler wrote:And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor.
When doing strenuous activity, one does not lt the breasts simply hang loosely to sway to and fro (much to the chagrin of red-blooded men everywhere). Sports bras were invented for this very reason. And this itself ignores the fact that they probably wouldn't have big breasts in the first place simply because they live a martial lifestyle which does not leave much room for fat from a very young age, this isn't actually necessarily the case. See also the Japanese, who for all their many flaws (and they are legion) have the good sense to eat a diet low on fat and exercise a lot, but this along with genetic factors results in their society's women being notably flatter chested than average.
To bring another example up, Sisters of Battle armor has breasts because GW wants the average person looking at the tiny models to instantly identify them as female (also because the original designer was a perverted douche with no taste in women and no artistic talent, but thankfully they did not adopt everything that John Blanche had in mind for the Sisters), not because they're all well endowed.
A man is also likely (on average) to be more agile and faster then a woman. Even with the implants. And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor. The intense amount of testosterone and other drugs going into making a woman an Astartes would just be better used on a man in the first place.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
Ya know RL females use the same armor as males right? even in the ye old days of Knights this was true. If they recruit the best of the best, saying no to any woman that could rank with the rest of them seems odd. Sure they may not be a strong, but they do tend to be faster, less bulk and better dexterity. "We can't take them because they are girls" is frankly Non-sense.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Because female guardsmen work in game just the same as male guardsmen. Why should Sm be any different?
Game =/= fluff.
Melissia wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor.
When doing strenuous activity, one does not lt the breasts simply hang loosely to sway to and fro (much to the chagrin of red-blooded men everywhere). Sports bras were invented for this very reason. And this itself ignores the fact that they probably wouldn't have big breasts in the first place simply because they live a martial lifestyle which does not leave much room for fat, this isn't actually necessarily the case. To bring another example up, Sisters of Battle armor has breasts because GW wants the average person looking at the tiny models to instantly identify them as female (also because the original designer was a perverted douche with no taste in women and no artistic talent, but thankfully they did not adopt everything that John Blanche had in mind for the Sisters), not because they're all well endowed.
That was a very long response to a very minor part of my argument haha, thank you anyway though. You seem to have a lot of hatred for your favorite faction.
Also, here's another thing: Female Adeptus are going to suffer from amenorrhea, since ostensibly they won't have periods anymore. Going to have to deal with the the side effects of that as well.
:edit: @HunterintheDarkness- You know that powered armor is a lot different from the armor they use today? Also again, men on a whole are faster than women. Finally, I know I'm assuming that female Adeptus are possible for the sake of argumentation, however I am going to have to bring up the background which shows that women just can't be marines. So it ultimately is a matter of "we can't take them because they are girls".
Meh. Its easy. 1) Admech from system BLAH BLAH come across some STC templates. I their thousand year proofing (look up the lightning) they find this STC actually works on women of a specific genetic subgroup. Bang shebam ERA.
2) The admech have been busy little beavers in league with the Adeptus Custodes, who are worried that their genetic improvement replications will fade over time. As part of their experiements to "fix" the process they focus on more stable female genes, creating AC female troopers comparable to marines. They, the Inquisition, (or even the Council if we want to be more legal about it) decide to develop a chapter styled force, which like the Nuns with Guns are much more loyal and less apt to "just go off and sulk or eat a planet's population." Woop Delioop Title IX.
3) In line with #3 above, they INSERT GOTHIC ORGANIZATION HERE decide to test this procedure on SOB volunteers. Twice the Fleur De Lis, Twice the 'tude! They could even be allied with the admech, sort of a Skitarii marine equivalent (lots of opportunities for conversions with all the best kit). After all, when it comes to obeying the Insquition's rules or The Big Book of Blue Marines, Honey badger, er Admech don't give a gak.
Melissia wrote:You mean just like male adeptus suffer from roid rage and other side effects of their hideously disgusting chemical cocktails?
Oh wait. They don't.
Roid rage isn't real, it's an urban myth. Most other side effects of AAS use can be negated with proper vitamins and other SERMS (selective endrogen receptor modulators).
:edit in response to your edit haha: Well yeah of course, that's a given.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Roid rage isn't real, it's an urban myth. Most other side effects of AAS use can be negated with proper vitamins and other SERMS (selective endrogen receptor modulators).
Just like the effects of the menstrual cycle can be minimized or even nullified with certain medications.
nomsheep wrote:Always wondered about that. Why with all the roids and chemicals and implants do the marines not actually suffer any side effects from it?
Because it's cooler if they don't.
Like the roids that Duke Nukem takes in DN Forever-- no negative side effects because it's cool to have him pop a few pills and then suddenly hulk out and beat the everloving gak out of everything he sees for a few minutes.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Roid rage isn't real, it's an urban myth. Most other side effects of AAS use can be negated with proper vitamins and other SERMS (selective endrogen receptor modulators).
Just like the effects of the menstrual cycle can be minimized or even nullified with certain medications.
Yes, it's true that you can nullify it with progesterone. The problem is that if you want to avoid amonhrrea, you then need to administer progesterone, which in turn will increase estrogen which is not a good thing for a super soldier. So yes you can avoid the effects of not having menstruation, but then you're gonna have a soldier who is menstruating and increasing its estrogen when in reality you want testosterone.
I think Melissia is right (as she very often is). 40k runs on rule of cool. If someone thinks space marines with boobs are cool, more power to them. Everyone else is free to mock them as they see fit, but it's not like whatever they make up could be any less sensible than some of the stuff GW publishes already.
Had this same conversation with my girlfriend once. She said it was kind of sexist. I agreed, but I still stood by the "no female space marines" camp. I don't personally believe there would ever be female space marines due to the nonsensical description of the geneseed. If there were, I subscribe to the idea that they'd be so jacked and roided up they'd look just like male space marines anyway, making the whole argument moot in my head. Wanting female space marines just to say they're female, when they'd end up looking like male gorillas, isn't worth the effort, and fairness for fairness's sake has never been a part of 40k.
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I think Melissia is right (as she very often is). 40k runs on rule of cool. If someone thinks space marines with boobs are cool, more power to them. Everyone else is free to mock them as they see fit, but it's not like whatever they make up could be any less sensible than some of the stuff GW publishes already.
Had this same conversation with my girlfriend once. She said it was kind of sexist. I agreed, but I still stood by the "no female space marines" camp. I don't personally believe there would ever be female space marines due to the nonsensical description of the geneseed. If there were, I subscribe to the idea that they'd be so jacked and roided up they'd look just like male space marines anyway, making the whole argument moot in my head. Wanting female space marines just to say they're female, when they'd end up looking like male gorillas, isn't worth the effort, and fairness for fairness's sake has never been a part of 40k.
You want sexist? Sisters of Battle. Even has Sisters in the name. There are no male sisters of battle. Waaaaaahhhh
Though if you think that this: (very NSFW) is cool, then you know what? More power to you. I guess.
Spoiler:
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Question from the Peanut Gallery
What exactly is the Fluff justification for the genetics-SM-must-be-men situation?
Despite the fact i've been playing this game for so long, i've never bothered poking around this bit of lore.
Something about it only being able to work with a man's chromosomes. That's it. It goes back as far as Rogue Trader, and is one of the few parts of the background that actually hasn't changed.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
LOL! Didn't even consider that.
That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.
I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Vladsimpaler wrote: You know that powered armor is a lot different from the armor they use today?
You know that All Sm are not the exact same size right? If they can adjust the chest, arms , legs and other things for different sized tall/short, slightly slim, more wide Sm then one being female is zero real issue. The outside looks the same, but outside of the armor they do not. They are not clones.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also again, men on a whole are faster than women. Finally, I know I'm assuming that female Adeptus are possible for the sake of argumentation, however I am going to have to bring up the background which shows that women just can't be marines. So it ultimately is a matter of "we can't take them because they are girls".
An Arbitrary BS reason. If someone could engineer the Astarte, all the many thousands of changers and whole new organs. Being female is not an issue, all males start out as female, if you can alter one sex to that degree you can do the other.
Frazzled wrote:2) The admech have been busy little beavers in league with the Adeptus Custodes, who are worried that their genetic improvement replications will fade over time. As part of their experiements to "fix" the process they focus on more stable female genes, creating AC female troopers comparable to marines. They, the Inquisition, (or even the Council if we want to be more legal about it) decide to develop a chapter styled force, which like the Nuns with Guns are much more loyal and less apt to "just go off and sulk or eat a planet's population." Woop Delioop Title IX.
Yes, but also far more apt to spend time trying to figure which shoes go with the next planet's soil coloration and having bitchy behind the back conversations about what another sister did, and asking loaded questions about if the armor makes them look fat to every male Chapter Serf who wanders by at the wrong time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:Because female guardsmen work in game just the same as male guardsmen. Why should Sm be any different?
You're taking this discussion into rules when it is very clearly about fluff. Need to stop here.
nomsheep wrote:Always wondered about that. Why with all the roids and chemicals and implants do the marines not actually suffer any side effects from it?
Gotta take an awful lot of roids to increase your height.
They don't take steroids for height increase. It's part of the geneseed cocktail of organs, I believe it overrides the pituitary and leaves the "keep growing" switch on longer than the body normally would during puberty, same as gigantism. You probably wouldn't need an extra organ to do it though, you could just administer the proper hormone, but whatever.
Similarly, there's actually a genetic switch that can be flipped to cause greatly increased muscle growth (I've seen studies where they do it in mice, to the point where the mice are so bulky they can hardly move). No actual steroids necessary.
Combine those two, and successfully add redundant organs like heart, lungs, and kidneys to handle the demands of such a huge body, and you have what is a fairly realistic recipe for a super-human. All the rest of the geneseed gak is, well, gak, but those things are probably doable.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:That is an entirely unsupportable assertion.
In all black library stories with male and female guardsmen, there is no noted difference between them as far as physical capabilities go-- in fact, some of the most famously competent and capable ones were female, in the Cain series. In the FFG roleplaying game, there is zero difference at all between male and female characters save social differences.
It is YOUR assertion that is unsupported by the lore, not mine.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
LOL! Didn't even consider that.
That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.
I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Ultimately, racial qualities are going to be bred out of the human race. Considering the fact that many scientists think redheads will be mostly extinct in 75-100 years, in 38,000 years, chances are everyone is going to be a light-medium tan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:That is an entirely unsupportable assertion.
In all black library stories with male and female guardsmen, there is no noted difference between them as far as physical capabilities go-- in fact, some of the most famously competent and capable ones were female, in the Cain series. In the FFG roleplaying game, there is zero difference at all between male and female characters save social differences.
Roleplaying games are an even more ludicrous source, since their mechanics have been artificially balanced between sexes for marketing/political correctness purposes for almost thirty years, and also that player characters are intentionally supposed to represent exceptional individuals, and not the average joes of any given universe.
And both of our assertions are entirely unsupportable in the fluff, since there hasn't been a single 40K book to make an in depth analysis of the topic. The bonus for me, is that my side is supported by reality, so in the end, given zero scientific, supportable evidence in the texts, we have to default to the known factors.
They don't take steroids for height increase. It's part of the geneseed cocktail of organs, I believe it overrides the pituitary and leaves the "keep growing" switch on longer than the body normally would during puberty, same as gigantism. You probably wouldn't need an extra organ to do it though, you could just administer the proper hormone, but whatever.
Wow, so the geneseed cocktail causes an increase in Growth hormone from the Anterior Pituitary?
I'm surprised, IRL this would cause acromegaly since bones are actually "sealed" from the effects of the hormone in adults.
@CalgarsPimpHand, it's much easier to make your marines black/white/purple/pink with dots in fluff than it is to make them grow bewbs and drop their trousersnake.
THe most likely reason that they aren't black is cos the greater amount of people who play it are white males.
It's also easier to put yourself in the shoes of someone who looks similar to you than it someone who doesn't.
Aesthetics wise in order to be realistic Fsm would look like the males and have armour like the males. If they are modelled then they have boob armour solely to identify them as female and cos boobs sell.
In other words, very real reason at all. The game isn't entirely like the background which means that there's a disconnect.
Vladsimpaler wrote: You know that powered armor is a lot different from the armor they use today?
You know that All Sm are not the exact same size right? If they can adjust the chest, arms , legs and other things for different sized tall/short, slightly slim, more wide Sm then one being female is zero real issue. The outside looks the same, but outside of the armor they do not. They are not clones.
Fair enough about this, however ultimately it makes no difference because of my next point...
Vladsimpaler wrote: Also again, men on a whole are faster than women. Finally, I know I'm assuming that female Adeptus are possible for the sake of argumentation, however I am going to have to bring up the background which shows that women just can't be marines. So it ultimately is a matter of "we can't take them because they are girls".
An Arbitrary BS reason. If someone could engineer the Astarte, all the many thousands of changers and whole new organs. Being female is not an issue, all males start out as female, if you can alter one sex to that degree you can do the other.
LOL, I like how you are the one who brings up these "BS reasons" like being faster and whatnot for female marines in the first place. When I refute them and actually make them a positive for the males, then they become arbitrary BS reasons. And I like how a piece of background that has stayed the same for almost 25 years is "arbitrary BS". C'mon dude, try a little. Also I'm pretty sure that embryos are a lot more susceptible to change than real humans, however I would definitely be up for some evidence proving otherwise.
Melissia wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:There are no male sisters of battle.
Frateris Templar.
Your argument fails.
Yeah, however they were disbanded if my memory serves. So if you want to be pedantic, yes there were male SoB, once, but not anymore. As such, it's a sexist organization. Also, I will assume that you've accepted the other part of my argument.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
LOL! Didn't even consider that.
That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.
I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Ultimately, racial qualities are going to be bred out of the human race. Considering the fact that many scientists think redheads will be mostly extinct in 75-100 years, in 38,000 years, chances are everyone is going to be a light-medium tan.
And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Yeah, however they were disbanded if my memory serves. So if you want to be pedantic, yes there were male SoB, once, but not anymore. Also, I will assume that you've accepted the other part of my argument.
Not really, I've only been halfway reading the thread (taking this topic seriously is never a sign of sanity). What other part?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.
Its probably not so much insensitivity rather than a matter of market share.
That would be some interesting stats to see - outside of the Western world, where is Warhammer 40K played?
Given the prohibitive cost - much of the developing world is already out of the picture.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Yeah, however they were disbanded if my memory serves. So if you want to be pedantic, yes there were male SoB, once, but not anymore. Also, I will assume that you've accepted the other part of my argument.
Not really, I've only been halfway reading the thread (taking this topic seriously is never a sign of sanity). What other part?
So you don't care (or at least, you're pretending not to) but only when it suits you? Gotcha.
Personally I find the debate thread to be interesting (especially when it involves such a hotly-contested topic!).
It's interesting at times, but other times it's just the same old rehashed hash that was being rehashed from its rehashed can of rehashed hash ten years ago.
They don't take steroids for height increase. It's part of the geneseed cocktail of organs, I believe it overrides the pituitary and leaves the "keep growing" switch on longer than the body normally would during puberty, same as gigantism. You probably wouldn't need an extra organ to do it though, you could just administer the proper hormone, but whatever.
Wow, so the geneseed cocktail causes an increase in Growth hormone from the Anterior Pituitary?
I'm surprised, IRL this would cause acromegaly since bones are actually "sealed" from the effects of the hormone in adults.
In children it would just cause Gigantism.
I don't know if it stimulates the pituitary or it supplants it, or if it uses this method at all, this is just my conjecture. But if I was going to make a space marine, that's how I would do it, and it does fit the fluff. Hence the exact reason pubescent children are used rather than adults to make space marines. Gigantism is the exact effect they want. Anyway gigantism in and of itself is not fatal, it's the side effects like over-stressing your organs. Which is why I rate induced gigantism and a secondary set of vital organs as a totally plausible method for making a superhuman soldier.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
LOL! Didn't even consider that.
That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.
I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Ultimately, racial qualities are going to be bred out of the human race. Considering the fact that many scientists think redheads will be mostly extinct in 75-100 years, in 38,000 years, chances are everyone is going to be a light-medium tan.
And now isolate a million different human populations on a million different planets for 10,000 years. There's still going to be incredible diversity, if not outright speciation (see Ratlings and Ogryns). Regardless, I personally find it kind of offensive that they don't even bother to try to represent diversity in their models except through outright mutants like the Salamanders. It's insensitive AND boring. Maybe that kind of thing flies better in Britain.
By the time the human race makes it to the galaxy faring stage in 40K, humanity's coloration will be all but homogenized. Sure, there will be populations which colonize planets with specialized environments which will reverse or alter the coloration of human beings. Certainly in the hive cities, people are going to be mostly pale from a lack of sunlight, and on desert planets, people are going to become darker to provide protection from easy burning. However, it's likely to never be as drastic as we see on Earth. Remember, Africans evolved to be darker skinned over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. The thing is, colonizing humans from a race with advanced technology are never going to need this kind of evolution since they will arrive on the planets with the comforts of clothing, shelter, covered transportation, etc. It's all speculative, but a relatively homogenous coloration and facial structure seems pretty realistic for 40K. That said, there's also nothing that would say you can't have a mixed or homogenous non-tan/white army.
nomsheep wrote:@CalgarsPimpHand, it's much easier to make your marines black/white/purple/pink with dots in fluff than it is to make them grow bewbs and drop their trousersnake.
THe most likely reason that they aren't black is cos the greater amount of people who play it are white males.
It's also easier to put yourself in the shoes of someone who looks similar to you than it someone who doesn't.
Aesthetics wise in order to be realistic Fsm would look like the males and have armour like the males. If they are modelled then they have boob armour solely to identify them as female and cos boobs sell.
Nom
When I played marines (horror I know) asll my marines wore helmets properly. In addition to be smarter than the average battle brother they could have been black, white, pink, blue, male, female, or robots.
I tend to skim til I see something interesting and then go from there. I tend to forget whats in these kind of threads that are nearly a weekly ritual...
@Frazzled: you are honsetly the first person I know of that has done that.
Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.
I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.
You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.
I'm still waiting for you to cite a source in support of your statement.
If you can';t cite anything that proves what you said, why do I have to prove it wrong? That's a logical fallacy. I don't have to prove it doesn't exist. You have to prove it does.
LOL, I like how you are the one who brings up these "BS reasons" like being faster and whatnot for female marines in the first place. When I refute them and actually make them a positive for the males, then they become arbitrary BS reasons. And I like how a piece of background that has stayed the same for almost 25 years is "arbitrary BS". C'mon dude, try a little. Also I'm pretty sure that embryos are a lot more susceptible to change than real humans, however I would definitely be up for some evidence proving otherwise.
Fist off Females are faster, anything that would boost the males speed and add to his bulk is gonna do the same for them, they still end up faster. I do not men long run, I mean reflexes, Females have faster one on average, they also studies show tend to have better hand eye coordination. You keep ignoring that while saying how much the Males get boosted, the Females would also get boosted just in slightly different ways. They would on avg, be slighter and less strong bust quicker.
Also just because a part of Backgound is old does not make it less BS then it is. Explain to me, just why it can't be done as the background says? You have rewritten the human Genome to make SM, crafted whole new organs, made nano machines that transform their very bone structure and musculature yet a freaking chomozon trips you up? Simply put if you can do what is basically rebuilding a human on the cellar level, being male or female has little to do with it.
Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.
I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.
You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.
Melissia isn't a troll. She just is, man. The immovable object.
The white knighting was kinda funny for a little bit, though I think for the sake of this thread you should drop it. Thanks man.
Kind Regards, Vladsimpaler
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:
LOL, I like how you are the one who brings up these "BS reasons" like being faster and whatnot for female marines in the first place. When I refute them and actually make them a positive for the males, then they become arbitrary BS reasons. And I like how a piece of background that has stayed the same for almost 25 years is "arbitrary BS". C'mon dude, try a little. Also I'm pretty sure that embryos are a lot more susceptible to change than real humans, however I would definitely be up for some evidence proving otherwise.
Fist off Females are faster, anything that would boost the males speed and add to his bulk is gonna do the same for them, they still end up faster. I do not men long run, I mean reflexes, Females have faster one on average, they also studies show tend to have better hand eye coordination. You keep ignoring that while saying how much the Males get boosted, the Females would also get boosted just in slightly different ways. They would on avg, be slighter and less strong bust quicker.
So they're not as fast (running), and not as strong, but they have slightly quicker trigger finger and reflexes? Doesn't sound like a huge deal to me, especially when you're 8 feet tall and wearing tank armor. Though this is sort of a grey area and is gonna be circular between you and me arguing over which is advantageous.
Also just because a part of Backgound is old does not make it less BS then it is. Explain to me, just why it can't be done as the background says? You have rewritten the human Genome to make SM, crafted whole new organs, made nano machines that transform their very bone structure and musculature yet a freaking chomozon trips you up? Simply put if you can do what is basically rebuilding a human on the cellar level, being male or female has little to do with it.
How else can that be taken but as Arbitrary BS?
Okay, here's the deal (again). I think that if the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium weren't so backward, female marines might actually be possible. But considering that you have to do chants and praises in order to turn on a light in a room, such a thing as in dealing with a chromosome is completely unfeasible. For 10 millennia, all Marines have been male. Something that static is never gonna change. It's understandably frustrating that the Imperium will never advance, however them's the breaks. That's the way the Imperium works. (or doesn't!).
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
If you want a REAL argument about the insensitivity of GW, just notice that NO ONE IS BLACK. Even the one space marine chapter that was black got retconned into horrible black-faced monsters for absolutely no reason (maybe because they decided that separate but equal chapters was too blatantly racist, so better make it "subtle" by dodging the subject altogether).
LOL! Didn't even consider that.
That does make me wonder though how well Non-Caucasians are represented in 40K.
I do recall a few Japanese members of the Guard and the Adeptus Arbites in a few fluff stories but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
If I remember in a short story there was a heavily Japanesed influenced system that was attacked by Orks and promptly steamrolled over because they never expected the Orks to attack a fake stronghold rather than bypass it like a normal enemy.
@Mellisa: If thats aimed at me, then i don't recall us ever really disagreeing. I'm more often than not ignored by you. probably because im mostly off-topic and make arguaments based on little knowledge but still...
If not, then i apologize
On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?
@OP: why do you want female marines? when there is plenty of ways to make women as fast and strong as a marine without that process. (assaians(sp? and augments.)
Just some interesting stuff from the Deathwatch RPG which is some of the most recent stuff on Space Marines.
Deathwatch RPG, page 13 wrote:
These (feral) worlds are often technologically backward with strong militaristic societies, where male children who show potential are pushed harder and harder, that they may one day
have a chance to join the ranks of the Space Marines
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.
Kain wrote:
If I remember in a short story there was a heavily Japanesed influenced system that was attacked by Orks and promptly steamrolled over because they never expected the Orks to attack a fake stronghold rather than bypass it like a normal enemy.
That's the one i was thinking of - from "Fear the Alien."
One of the Adeptus Arbites member of Hydraphur from the Shira Calpurnia novels was a Nakayama.
it should be noted though that GW does have a store in Tokyo...
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.
So if someone really wanted to, then they could manipluate the zygotes to work for females?
nomsheep wrote:@Mellisa: If thats aimed at me, then i don't recall us ever really disagreeing. I'm more often than not ignored by you. probably because im mostly off-topic and make arguaments based on little knowledge but still...
If not, then i apologize
On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?
@OP: why do you want female marines? when there is plenty of ways to make women as fast and strong as a marine without that process. (assaians(sp? and augments.)
Nom
[inside jokes]Melissa may not be a troll, but her avatar depicts one in an entirely different context.[/inside jokes.]
And some people are just obstinate about having certain things, for some, that thing is space marines with tits. Why people are obstinate about this is something best left for a psychologist to explain.
Yes, I'm well aware of the deathwatch material, in fact I have brought it up in threads regarding this topic.
But I also point to this post as a rebuttal.
Melissia wrote:While it is true that there is very little genetic difference between a male and a female, Astartes fanboys claim that this relaively insignificant difference is enough to disqualify all women, and therefor it must count for quite a bit in 40k (given that men of entirely different families and thus far less related than a brother and sister would be are able to both become Astartes).
Games Workshop does not employ geneticists or even biologists. They don't know what they're talking about; they haven't the faintest idea and they're really just pulling pop culture "science" nonsense out of their asses, and you shouldn't look too deeply in to it. Suffice it to say, humans in 40k are VERY different from humans in the real world. the martial difference between the two is not so great in 40k, because 40k runs on rule of cool rather than physics.
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
Er huh?
The zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types?
Is there anymore explanation to that written in the book?
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote: They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.
So if someone really wanted to, then they could manipluate the zygotes to work for females?
Nom
I would doubt that it would be successful given the technological regression in the Imperium. In addition, heretic Adeptus would be more likely to create crazy machines of war than worry about creating a marine that would be more than likely inferior.
@ Melissia- I saw your post and honestly it still doesn't work. Games Workshop doesn't employ generals or architects or spaceship makers either. It's all the rule of cool, as you mentioned. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would want to see a gross-ass 7 foot tall "thing" that just happened to have once been a female. And again, arguing as much as you want, it won't change the background. The fact that GW didn't employ biologists means nothing. Finally, you're ignoring the fact that it's "male children with potential" that are chosen. Not women.
I'm obstinate about a lot of things, but I've never actually planned to make female space marines personally. I just find the arguments against them to be silly.
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Er huh?
The zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types?
Is there anymore explanation to that written in the book?
The geneseed "zygotes" is what they're referring to, not the human zygotes. That's without getting in to the fact that there's technically no such thing as male or female hormones (both genders use both "kinds"), and a good number of women have more testosterone in their system than the average man in modern times.
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.
So if someone really wanted to, then they could manipluate the zygotes to work for females?
Nom
I don't really understand what the heck they are claiming. A zygote is merely a fertilized egg.
It hasn't even committed to the process of differentiation yet. IE: the Cells are still Totipotent.
nomsheep wrote:On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?
A source for what? I've said nothing that requires a source. If you want to prove what I said was wrong, you have to provide a source that your belief of gender equality exists. I cannot prove to you that something doesn't exist. Simple and vague pastiches aren't sources, lol. A source is a specific example that can be verified. I understand not everyone goes to college, but I'm not going to start arguing at an elementary school level just to be fair.
nomsheep wrote:I tend to skim til I see something interesting and then go from there. I tend to forget whats in these kind of threads that are nearly a weekly ritual...
@Frazzled: you are honsetly the first person I know of that has done that.
Nom
I think that is good, but I was hit by a barrel Friday so I may be a bit...off.
Melissia wrote:The geneseed "zygotes" is what they're referring to, not the human zygotes. That's without getting in to the fact that there's technically no such thing as male or female hormones (both genders use both "kinds"), and a good number of women have more testosterone in their system than the average man in modern times.
Wow.. I thought Hollywood took a lot of liberties with science. Heck, even George Lucas makes a better case with his Mitochondria-That-Produce-the Force...
And yes it is a very irksome but popular conception that men and women only produce one type of sex hormone.
Adrenal Cortex produces some androgens, not enough to make a difference to males due to the existence of the testes..but quite important for women esp. if the AC is thrown out of whack.
nomsheep wrote:I tend to skim til I see something interesting and then go from there. I tend to forget whats in these kind of threads that are nearly a weekly ritual...
@Frazzled: you are honsetly the first person I know of that has done that.
Nom
I think that is good, but I was hit by a barrel Friday so I may be a bit...off.
How did you pull that off? lol
ANd it's good It makes you original (to me) in world where no-one is. XD
nomsheep wrote:On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?
A source for what? I've said nothing that requires a source.
You said that women in 40k aren't as martially capable as men in 40k, to the direct contradiction of established 40k lore.
If I remember, Amberly Vail was able to defeat a Broodlord in more or less single combat, yes there were others, but if IIRC they were busy holding off the rest of the genestealers. Admittedly she was encased in heavy artificer armour and had a power fist and a heavy bolter, but a Broodlord is something more than capable of simply pulling a Space marine's arms out of his sockets and clubbing him to death with them.
Frazzled wrote:I think that is good, but I was hit by a barrel Friday so I may be a bit...off.
As in, actually hit by a barrel physically, or you drank a barrel of beer and still haven't recovered...
... or both?
Hit by a barrel-one of those street warning barrels to be precise. They had a squall come through downtown Friday. I tride to get downstairs and on the bus a few minutes before It came in but oo late. Hurricane level winds came through downtown for a few minutes send ing everything flying around, inlcuding a barrel that smacked your humble servant while he was hiding in the corner of a a building laughing like a mad hatter. Now saturday I helped bottle the Wife's wine, and that was being hit by a whole different barrel.
Considering last week was caught in a storm and had to run back to the house with the dogs, cradling Tbone like a football Heisman style its been a weird weather month for me.
nomsheep wrote:On topic: Can you produce a source vet sarge?
A source for what? I've said nothing that requires a source.
You said that women in 40k aren't as martially capable as men in 40k, to the direct contradiction of established 40k lore.
If I remember, Amberly Vail was able to defeat a Broodlord in more or less single combat, yes there were others, but if IIRC they were busy holding off the rest of the genestealers. Admittedly she was encased in heavy artificer armour and had a power fist and a heavy bolter, but a Broodlord is something more than capable of simply pulling a Space marine's arms out of his sockets and clubbing him to death with them.
Pfff. you don't even have to get so complicated with the matter.
Shira Calpurnia, just your "normal" adeptus arbites, could snap the majority of men i know IRL in two.
Melissia wrote:The geneseed "zygotes" is what they're referring to, not the human zygotes. That's without getting in to the fact that there's technically no such thing as male or female hormones (both genders use both "kinds"), and a good number of women have more testosterone in their system than the average man in modern times.
They're most likely referring to the Y Chromosome which only men have. Also you're gonna have to cite the "women having more testosterone than men" claim. Of course, you're most likely referring to exceptions. Hey, there are also some men that are emotional or better artists than the average women. Doesn't mean anything. It's an exception, not the norm.
Also if you're gonna quote some random female being able to punch out some dude, then I will never feel bad about Sisters sucking in 40k ever again. Dumb crap like that makes me lose respect for arguments that women are equal to men in terms of strength.
:edit: Just saw your above post about the lesbian dude knocking out the Tallarn. Mind=blown.
DogOfWar wrote:[... ] 40k fluff does a great job of equalling the sexes in terms of combat, the realism of such equality is unlikely.
Uh.
Wait.
What?
You do realize we have women in our military forces today, right?
The 40k fluff describes humans as basically the same height, weight and build as they are now, so using modern day comparisons is perfectly reasonable.
You said specifically that the differences between the sexes in average, non astartes, humans is negligible in combat. That is a flatly false statement.
He's got a point...
If he claims there isn't any evidence supporting the idea that females aren't as physically capable as men in 40k it's gonna be hard to come up with evidence for it... since... you know his point is that there isn't any evidence...
If people can blur gender lines like that with existing tech, it pretty much doesn't matter where you start in 40k. Maybe the Astartes process works on anyone, but just, for all practical purposes, makes you "male". A male that can't reproduce and has no instinctive desire to anyway, no less.
Hell, a great many marines barely remember who and what they were before the transformation. Its blocked, burnt, wiped out of their minds as a side effect, or even intentionally. Maybe some of them started as sweet little girls who happened to fit the proper physical requirements to be a marine, then they're put through training and mind-wiped to the point they just don't even remember properly what they were born as.
But seriously, once they're decked out in power armour, bulked up, and generally radically different than a base human any way, who cares what they started as? They're all gonna look like the incredible hulk anyway.
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Shira Calpurnia, just your "normal" adeptus arbites, could snap the majority of men i know IRL in two.
Actually no. She was easily physically restrained by a Navy cadet until she was able to get her power maul into him. She even admits that if she didn't have her weapon, she would have been dead.
She's very skilled, agile, aerobically fit and tenacious, absolutely but it's clear that she is not physically stronger than an average male, let alone a Guardsman.
DrimGark wrote:We've got transexuals in beauty pageants NOW.
If people can blur gender lines like that with existing tech, it pretty much doesn't matter where you start in 40k.
I always thought it was some sort of unofficial policy by GW/BL to try and steer clear of issues like gender-bending or sex in fiction for that matter.
So it may be a matter of "As Long as we don't acknowledge it, it therefore doesn't exist."
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DogOfWar wrote:
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Shira Calpurnia, just your "normal" adeptus arbites, could snap the majority of men i know IRL in two.
Actually no. She was easily physically restrained by a Navy cadet until she was able to get her power maul into him. She even admits that if she didn't have her weapon, she would have been dead.
She's very skilled, agile, aerobically fit and tenacious, absolutely but it's clear that she is not physically stronger than an average male, let alone a Guardsman.
DoW
But the majority of men i know in real life aren't Imperial navy cadets.
MarcoSkoll wrote:an evolutionary pressure that targets just women would affect men too.
This is not necessarily the case, as proven by the existence of medical conditions and mutations that are unique or near-unique to women.
If a something is an evolutionary pressure on women, then it affects how many children they pass their genetics on to (on average) - and those children can be either gender - whether or not that pressure exists for men.
It is true that some conditions do take hold in only one sex, but the genetics that relate to physical performance are shared by both men and women. Hence, a pressure that caused a positive correlation between genetic disposition for physical performance and the number of offspring borne by women (but which somehow had negligible correlation with the average offspring of men), that genetic disposition would be passed on to (and take effect in) both male and female descendants.
While it is true that there is very little genetic difference between a male and a female, Astartes fanboys claim that this relatively insignificant difference is enough to disqualify all women
Canonically, yes it is. Or at the very least, that's what everyone in-universe believes and thus has no reason to waste their time finding out.
In all black library stories with male and female guardsmen, there is no noted difference between them as far as physical capabilities go
Why would they choose to note the difference? I can just see that as a footnote: "We thought we should point out what any sane person would be taking for granted just so that someone doesn't try and use our omission as 'evidence' on an internet forum in a few years: The men are stronger than the women. kthxbye".
Perhaps I should also cite the general lack of statements regarding how much 40k males menstruate as part of a statement about how well the Imperial sanitary towel industry must be doing?
In the FFG roleplaying game, there is zero difference at all between male and female characters save social differences.
That's just because most of the GIRLs (Acronym: Guy In Real Life) would pitch a fit if they actually had to take a penalty for acting out their weird fantasies.
All of the -4 STR stuff from the old D&D got dropped for this reason, and most RPGs have since also decided to avoid gender based stat penalties/bonuses.
You said that women in 40k aren't as martially capable as men in 40k, to the direct contradiction of established 40k lore.
You said that women are as martially capable as men, to the direct contradiction of all modern evidence.
40k has nothing to do with it. Women simply are NOT built as strong as men due to the different shaping of their bodies - an essential difference to allow childbirth.
Melissia wrote:Not really, I've only been halfway reading the thread (taking this topic seriously is never a sign of sanity). What other part?
Translation: When I come across points I can't refute, I ignore them and/or act like the whole conversation was beneath me in the first place.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[snip]
Unlike you, I provided sources. Your assertion is essentially pulled right out of your arse.
I've told you before that simply being obstinate does not allow you to win arguments, lol.
You've got to be one of my favorite trolls on this site. You're absolutely unwavering.
Basically.
Melissia wrote:A good number of women have more testosterone in their system than the average man in modern times.
Case in point? Maybe.
Anyway, I don't see how this is relevant. A good number of men have bigger tits than the average woman in modern times, too. So there you go, if you want marines with bewbs, they all recruit from a planet full of fatties, and a flaw in the geneseed doesn't strip them of their moobs. The end.
Melissia wrote:Mind you, Sandy Mitchel likes writing badass female guardsmen. A pity he can't write Sisters to save his life.
It's probably quite Freudian. "Waah, I got a girl's name so people call me a wimp. I'm going to write a bunch of super-tough women to prove that even if you have a girl's name, you can still be tough!"
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also if you're gonna quote some random female being able to punch out some dude, then I will never feel bad about Sisters sucking in 40k ever again. Dumb crap like that makes me lose respect for arguments that women are equal to men in terms of strength.
:edit: Just saw your above post about the lesbian dude knocking out the Tallarn. Mind=blown.
Vladsimpaler wrote:They're most likely referring to the Y Chromosome which only men have.
That itself is not entirely true (not only men have it, and indeed there's things on the X and Y genes that code for the same thing...), but regardless, the unique parts of the Y chromosome code for little more than the presence and regulation of the male genitalia. Which the Marines do not use.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Of course, you're most likely referring to exceptions.
Nope! My entire point was that the difference between male and female isn't as great as people think it is, and most of it is artificially inflated due to cultural enforcement. Women are expected by society to be softer and weaker, and society tries to enforce this expectation on children as they grow up.
The Imperium as a whole has no such limitation due to its desire to maximize the use of its population and its hatred for weakness, and indeed it has numerous worlds where women are the dominant power or where everyone pulls their weight equally, meaning that it is very likely that the women would have on average more testosterone than, or an equal amount to, the men simply due to psychological reasons (the bodies of women who become competitive and develop a drive naturally produce more testosterone, as seen in soldiers and businesswomen).
Vladsimpaler wrote:Also if you're gonna quote some random female being able to punch out some dude, then I will never feel bad about Sisters sucking in 40k ever again. Dumb crap like that makes me lose respect for arguments that women are equal to men in terms of strength.
My point was that the argument that women in 40k are less martially competent than men is a junk argument. If this position offends you
... I couldn't care less. Be offended all you want.
MarcoSkoll wrote:You said that women are as martially capable as men
Vladsimpaler wrote:Just some interesting stuff from the Deathwatch RPG which is some of the most recent stuff on Space Marines.
Deathwatch RPG, page 13 wrote:
These (feral) worlds are often technologically backward with strong militaristic societies, where male children who show potential are pushed harder and harder, that they may one day
have a chance to join the ranks of the Space Marines
Deathwatch RPG, page 15 wrote:
They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need, for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.
That's from the most recent background. Arbitrary or not, that's the way it is.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
I never said it wasn't they way it was. I simply stated there was no fluff reason it had to be. The whole Astarte creation took so much knowledge of human anatomy and technology to say it was stumped byt Hormones is laughable.
Omegus wrote:
It's probably quite Freudian. "Waah, I got a girl's name so people call me a wimp. I'm going to write a bunch of super-tough women to prove that even if you have a girl's name, you can still be tough!"
Kind Regards,
Actually Sandy Mitchell's real name is Alex Stewart, why he uses that pen name is beyond me. Maybe because Alex Stewart is honestly kind of a generic name.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
I never said it wasn't they way it was. I simply stated there was no fluff reason it had to be. The whole Astarte creation took so much knowledge of human anatomy and technology to say it was stumped byt Hormones is laughable.
Well, it is fantasy genetics. I suspect attempting to marry 40K Science! to real world Science would probably close off a few doors of creativity to writers....that and bog them down in a topic that probably doesn't garner a lot of interest to the folks playing 40K (excluding those engaged in the natural sciences or medicine as a profession of course).
Vladsimpaler wrote:They're most likely referring to the Y Chromosome which only men have.
That itself is not entirely true (not only men have it, and indeed there's things on the X and Y genes that code for the same thing...), but regardless, the unique parts of the Y chromosome code for little more than the presence and regulation of the male genitalia. Which the Marines do not use.
Interesting, but doesn't entirely answer the idea that the stuff necessary to become a marine forms to the the Y Chromosome. Yeah the X and Y have some similar genes, which I remember from biology being called "autosomes". So while there's some similarities, the Y chromosome is still needed because it does have some differences, regardless of whether or not Marines take advantage of it.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Of course, you're most likely referring to exceptions.
Nope! My entire point was that the difference between male and female isn't as great as people think it is, and most of it is artificially inflated due to cultural enforcement. Women are expected by society to be softer and weaker, and society tries to enforce this expectation on children as they grow up.
Errr what? So there are some tough women. Doesn't mean anything when, as I stated, only potential males are taken. Not potential women. So no matter how strong a woman is, she won't be considered.
The Imperium as a whole has no such limitation due to its desire to maximize the use of its population and its hatred for weakness, and indeed it has numerous worlds where women are the dominant power or where everyone pulls their weight equally, meaning that it is very likely that the women would have on average more testosterone than, or an equal amount to, the men simply due to psychological reasons (the bodies of women who become competitive and develop a drive naturally produce more testosterone, as seen in soldiers and businesswomen).
Vladsimpaler wrote:Also if you're gonna quote some random female being able to punch out some dude, then I will never feel bad about Sisters sucking in 40k ever again. Dumb crap like that makes me lose respect for arguments that women are equal to men in terms of strength.
My point was that the argument that women in 40k are less martially competent than men is a junk argument. If this position offends you
... I couldn't care less. Be offended all you want.
Lmao, I don't get offended easily (and it would take a lot more than your weak position hahaha), your argument just has no basis. Your point again is an exception and can't be used to prove that women and men are the same. You mad?
Melissia wrote:My point was that the argument that women in 40k are less martially competent than men is a junk argument. If this position offends you
... I couldn't care less. Be offended all you want.
I don't think anyone is arguing the martial prowess (which includes skill, experience, agility, etc) of 40k women, but it isn't correct to assume that just because regiments are mixed gender in 40k that it means they are exactly equal physically. If you're looking for evidence to support this (even though the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence to the contrary) Gaunt's Ghosts, a typical mixed gender regiment, has several examples of female troopers being overpowered by male troopers or enemies and no examples of female heavy weapons teams, despite several uses of heavy stubbers and missile launchers throughout the novels.
On the other hand, many of the female characters are specifically described as excellent snipers, marksmen and scouts which makes them invaluable to the regiment. They are also described as being good knife fighters, which is a weapon specifically requiring great skill, but not so much brute force.
Even if you go by height and weight alone, it drastically changes the muscle mass and leverage capability of your body. Women in 40k are still shorter and lighter than the men, on average, so why would they be just as strong? If they have been modified (via evolutionary, chemical, hormonal, etc) to have greater strength with less mass, then why wouldn't they have engineered the men, who are still taller and heavier, the same way? It's a self-defeating argument.
Shira Calpurnia is an excellent example of not needing to be overly physically strong to be a badass. She consistently beats up multiple individuals despite being described as around 5'6" and slender. It's a testament to her skill, agility, equipment and intelligence that she is able to best her opponents in combat regardless of their greater size and strength. I would say that's much more admirable than just being equally strong.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Interesting, but doesn't entirely answer the idea that the stuff necessary to become a marine forms to the the Y Chromosome. Yeah the X and Y have some similar genes, which I remember from biology being called "autosomes". So while there's some similarities, the Y chromosome is still needed because it does have some differences, regardless of whether or not Marines take advantage of it.
All of that still assumes that it's referring to the Y chromosome, which there isn't really any evidence of aside from conjecture in an attempt to try to justify GW's statement which contradict reality
As I said before, it's science fiction and runs on rule of cool, try not to think too hard on it.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Errr what? So there are some tough women. Doesn't mean anything when, as I stated, only potential males are taken. Not potential women. So no matter how strong a woman is, she won't be considered.
... you aren't actually paying attention to what I've posted, are you?
Vladsimpaler wrote:your argument just has no basis.
Aside from the entirety of 40k lore, I suppose not. But 40k lore itself is based only in rule of cool. And, of course, action girls and ladies of war are both very, very cool
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DogOfWar wrote:I don't think anyone is arguing the martial prowess (which includes skill, experience, agility, etc) of 40k women
That's pretty much exactly what was being argued by a couple posters in this thread.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Interesting, but doesn't entirely answer the idea that the stuff necessary to become a marine forms to the the Y Chromosome. Yeah the X and Y have some similar genes, which I remember from biology being called "autosomes". So while there's some similarities, the Y chromosome is still needed because it does have some differences, regardless of whether or not Marines take advantage of it.
All of that still assumes that it's referring to the Y chromosome, which there isn't really any evidence of aside from conjecture in an attempt to try to justify GW's statement which contradict reality
As I said before, it's science fiction and runs on rule of cool, try not to think too hard on it.
Which is a fair assumption to make since it says that it's keyed to male hormones. So yeah, it's science fiction, and in this particular fiction it only works with males. Which is why you arguing that it makes no sense ultimately makes no sense, because WH40k is fiction. I'm not really thinking too hard on it, thanks for the concern though.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Errr what? So there are some tough women. Doesn't mean anything when, as I stated, only potential males are taken. Not potential women. So no matter how strong a woman is, she won't be considered.
... you aren't actually paying attention to what I've posted, are you?
I would quote something about you not really caring and just skimming this thread, but yeah I'm reading it and it's not making sense to me.
Vladsimpaler wrote:your argument just has no basis.
Aside from the entirety of 40k lore, I suppose not. But 40k lore itself is based only in rule of cool. And, of course, action girls and ladies of war are both very, very cool
Different strokes for different folks, I find "forced" characters (especially fighter women) to be cliche and boring. Especially ones that somehow just go around beat up people. It's lazy writing.
Nice to see you penning such full and well reasoned counter arguments.
In the 41st millennium women still have smaller (on average) upper bodies and wider hips than men in the 41st millennium - they're often shorter too. The art shows this. And as a direct result of this, you get less optimal muscular leverage and smaller heart/lung capacities. The feminine form is fundamentally less capable of physical performance, in this universe or theirs* - that's just how it is.
(*Really, do NOT get me into an argument about the laws of physics in 40k. I will go anthropic principle on you.)
Um, no, they are arguing that the superior physicality of the average male over the average woman provides an inherent advantage when building super soldiers. You are just creating a strawman because your own argument is nonsensical.
Your response to dogofwar is a perfect example. You quote the part that you see as supporting your argument (martial prowess of 40k women), but ignore the qualifying statement that disputes your claim that men and women in 40k are completely equal on physical terms. The rest of your posts are just as bad. "Geneseed being tied to male chromosomes is unrealistic, unjustifiable and wrong! But unrealistic, unjustifiable assumptions about biological differences between men and women is totally okay because of the rule of cool. Fiction I don't like is bad! Fiction I like is unassailable!"
Your whole contribution to this thread disingenuous at best. I'd call trolling, but I think we have Hanlon's razor at work here.
DogOfWar wrote:I don't think anyone is arguing the martial prowess (which includes skill, experience, agility, etc) of 40k women
That's pretty much exactly what was being argued by a couple posters in this thread.
Hmm, well not me and I don't think Vlad either.
To be fair, I can't speak for him, but from what I've read it seems like we simply disagree with your assessment of a) strength not being a factor in combat abilities whatsoever and b) that women and men in 40k are equal, physically.
Unless that's not what you're saying. If not, then I apologise for the confusion and would like to ask that you restate what you were trying to say.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
A man is also likely (on average) to be more agile and faster then a woman. Even with the implants. And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor. The intense amount of testosterone and other drugs going into making a woman an Astartes would just be better used on a man in the first place.
Vlad, it might amuse you to learn that I've seen a five foot Israeli woman soldier kick the asses of not one, but two men in excess of 250 pounds and both were trained and experienced hand to hand combatants. Do not assume that testosterone makes you a better fighter.
Frazzled wrote:Meh. Its easy.
1) Admech from system BLAH BLAH come across some STC templates. I their thousand year proofing (look up the lightning) they find this STC actually works on women of a specific genetic subgroup. Bang shebam ERA.
2) The admech have been busy little beavers in league with the Adeptus Custodes, who are worried that their genetic improvement replications will fade over time. As part of their experiements to "fix" the process they focus on more stable female genes, creating AC female troopers comparable to marines. They, the Inquisition, (or even the Council if we want to be more legal about it) decide to develop a chapter styled force, which like the Nuns with Guns are much more loyal and less apt to "just go off and sulk or eat a planet's population." Woop Delioop Title IX.
3) In line with #3 above, they INSERT GOTHIC ORGANIZATION HERE decide to test this procedure on SOB volunteers. Twice the Fleur De Lis, Twice the 'tude! They could even be allied with the admech, sort of a Skitarii marine equivalent (lots of opportunities for conversions with all the best kit). After all, when it comes to obeying the Insquition's rules or The Big Book of Blue Marines, Honey badger, er Admech don't give a gak.
FRAZZ! Thank you for being the first person to actually come up with an answer to the question. Gold Star!
Vladsimpaler wrote:
The problem is that if you want to avoid amonhrrea, you then need to administer progesterone, which in turn will increase estrogen which is not a good thing for a super soldier. So yes you can avoid the effects of not having menstruation, but then you're gonna have a soldier who is menstruating and increasing its estrogen when in reality you want testosterone.
What you actually want is a myostatin inhibitor, not testosterone. Use that and neither estrogen nor testosterone are a factor in strength increase and muscle growth at that point.
You see here skinned mice who have a defective myostatin gene. The mouse on the far right was further enhanced by follistatin treatments.
Belgian Blue Cattle have two linked traits, they can produce neither myostatin nor it's receptors correctly.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Something about it only being able to work with a man's chromosomes. That's it. It goes back as far as Rogue Trader, and is one of the few parts of the background that actually hasn't changed.
Actually thier excuse was 'hormones'. Which, as we've all seen, does not hold water.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Roleplaying games are an even more ludicrous source, since their mechanics have been artificially balanced between sexes for marketing/political correctness purposes for almost thirty years, and also that player characters are intentionally supposed to represent exceptional individuals, and not the average joes of any given universe.
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But the majority of men i know in real life aren't Imperial navy cadets.
Yeah, and the majority of women you know in real life aren't Adeptus Arbites. Go figure.
This pretty much sums up that part of this discussion:
If I were to say that the 145 lb (fight weight, walks around 155-160) female mixed martial artist Cristiane Santos, the currently best and strongest female at that weight, could beat up a fair number of men, that would be correct.
BTW, this is what your Sisters of Battle will actually look like, lol.
However, it would be incorrect to say that because Cristiane Santos can beat up a fair number of men, that every 145 pound woman can beat up a fair number of men.
It would also be incorrect to say that Cristiane Santos is even the equal of men at 145 lbs, because it is generally accepted that the top male fighters at the 145lb weight class would be significantly stronger than her.
This is the analogy that a lot of people are trying to use. "Well, this one book had this chick in it and she was bad ass!" That's irrelevant. Perhaps she is an exceptional specimen, highly trained and/or genetically blessed (or, a steroid user like Santos). That's one character amongst a bajillion, and even if her being a bad ass, it isn't even evidence that she's better, or the equal of the best men similar to her size. That's why you can't use these single characters as "evidence". They don't prove anything. I told you it was an impossible thing to prove. It might seem like it makes things convenient for my argument that there's no way to prove it wrong. I'll let you in on something. I 'm a pretty smart guy, and there's a reason I chose this argument. Because it's right. Or, at least, most likely to be right, and impossible to prove wrong, so I cut the margin of error to a minimum by doing some deductive reasoning. It's a neat trick, that deductive reasoning stuff. I suggest people give it a shot. Yes, there are some women who are as good as some men. And then there will always be men who are bigger and stronger than those "some" women. And ultimately, the average will weight in favor of the males, all things the same (or, ceteris paribus, for any economists here). There's examples in the 40K fluff that say there are some tough women. There are no examples that say all women are as tough and strong as men, which is not true in real life, so by omission in 40K fluff defaults to reality, not the other way around, or to some idealized conceptualization. After all, literature is written with its audience in mind. If a work (or in this case many, many works) leaves something up to the assumption of the reader, then it will be based on the realistic expectations of that reader based on their understanding of contextual matters.
I understand that the reality of the physiological differences between men and women upsets the sensibilities of certain people. I guess that's tough luck. It has to be a difficult life to argue against proven science. But if the creationists can keep it up strong, I'm sure you can too. Nobody said an opinion had to be logical, so there's no reason yours has to.
If I am accepting that as part of the setting there are human beings stomping around in powered armour toting laser cannons, who have been transformed into walking war machines using some arcane science, I am already suspending my disbelief to a pretty significant extent - therefore imaging that some of them could have started out as normal human women requires no effort.
In other words, I've never had a problem with the idea of female Space Marines. If anything I find the prohibition to be a part of the fluff that's mystifying even by 40K standards when you consider some of the craziness flying about. I'd find it highly amusing if a new Space Marine Codex just casually mentioned female Astartes as if they had always been part of the background and then moved on.
Note: I'm just musing; I fully expect that none of the last sentence will happen, ever.
Vladsimpaler wrote: A man is also likely (on average) to be more agile and faster then a woman. Even with the implants. And again, you're gonna have to get rid of breasts to fit in armor. The intense amount of testosterone and other drugs going into making a woman an Astartes would just be better used on a man in the first place.
Vlad, it might amuse you to learn that I've seen a five foot Israeli woman soldier kick the asses of not one, but two men in excess of 250 pounds and both were trained and experienced hand to hand combatants. Do not assume that testosterone makes you a better fighter.
It might also amuse you to learn that exceptions don't prove anything. Thanks for playing though; we've already gone over this.
Vladsimpaler wrote: The problem is that if you want to avoid amonhrrea, you then need to administer progesterone, which in turn will increase estrogen which is not a good thing for a super soldier. So yes you can avoid the effects of not having menstruation, but then you're gonna have a soldier who is menstruating and increasing its estrogen when in reality you want testosterone.
What you actually want is a myostatin inhibitor, not testosterone. Use that and neither estrogen nor testosterone are a factor in strength increase and muscle growth at that point.
Well obviously you want a myostatin inhibitor, that's what the drugs in the Space Marine are. That's all of the AAS and growth hormone, except it's a futuristic version I'm sure. Also, I don't know enough about AAS to tell you what an increased amount of estrogen would do to someone who already has a very large amount of stuff in their system, but I feel like it's not necessarily a good thing. And also progesterone is used to treat amonhrea, which is definitely not a myostatin inhibitor. So female Marines are gonna need 1 more drug to make sure that they're even in workable condition, since lack of it causes increased cortisol.
:edit: I must be a fast poster, you didn't get to edit in your pics haha I've already seen them, they are quite interesting. Too bad that most people born with a myostatin deficiency die young, they're the closest to superhuman you can get.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Something about it only being able to work with a man's chromosomes. That's it. It goes back as far as Rogue Trader, and is one of the few parts of the background that actually hasn't changed.
Actually thier excuse was 'hormones'. Which, as we've all seen, does not hold water.
Deductive reasoning would show that it's the Y chromosome (male) that the zygotes or whatever link to, since that's the only thing women lack that men still have.
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But the majority of men i know in real life aren't Imperial navy cadets.
Yeah, and the majority of women you know in real life aren't Adeptus Arbites. Go figure.
This pretty much sums up that part of this discussion:
If I were to say that the 145 lb (fight weight, walks around 155-160) female mixed martial artist Cristiane Santos, the currently best and strongest female at that weight, could beat up a fair number of men, that would be correct.
BTW, this is what your Sisters of Battle will actually look like, lol.
However, it would be incorrect to say that because Cristiane Santos can beat up a fair number of men, that every 145 pound woman can beat up a fair number of men.
It would also be incorrect to say that Cristiane Santos is even the equal of men at 145 lbs, because it is generally accepted that the top male fighters at the 145lb weight class would be significantly stronger than her.
This is the analogy that a lot of people are trying to use. "Well, this one book had this chick in it and she was bad ass!" That's irrelevant. Perhaps she is an exceptional specimen, highly trained and/or genetically blessed (or, a steroid user like Santos). That's one character amongst a bajillion, and even if her being a bad ass, it isn't even evidence that she's better, or the equal of the best men similar to her size. That's why you can't use these single characters as "evidence". They don't prove anything.
Pause this for a moment. You, ironically, are completely ignoring fluff, in this case. Because SM are stated to expressly look for those 'one in a bajillion' people to recruit to be space marines. So arguing 'well they're super rare!' does not mean anything in this case.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Different strokes for different folks, I find "forced" characters (especially fighter women) to be cliche and boring. Especially ones that somehow just go around beat up people. It's lazy writing.
Space Marines, as a whole, are lazy writing and forced, cliche, and boring cahracters. So I find this objection rather peculiar.
DogOfWar wrote:Unless that's not what you're saying. If not, then I apologise for the confusion and would like to ask that you restate what you were trying to say.
In essence, I'm saying the following:
-- GW's restriction of SM only being male makes no sense from a scientific standpoint, but what makes even less sense is the nerdrage that goes in to threads like these.
-- Despite assertions to the contrary, women in 40k are equally competent to men in terms of being able to fight. Especially amongst unaugmented human soldiers on an actual battlefield (muscle strength isn't actually that important when you have a gun, after all).
-- If there were such things as female Space Marines, the chemical diet and hormonal treatment that the females get would render the entire discussion on prowess pointless because it would change how the females developed during their formative years.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
It might also amuse you to learn that exceptions don't prove anything. Thanks for playing though; we've already gone over this.
Pick a fight with a random one. Fifty to one you eat dirt.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Well obviously you want a myostatin inhibitor, that's what the drugs in the Space Marine are. That's all of the AAS and growth hormone, except it's a futuristic version I'm sure.
Futuristic or not, they make the testosterone irreverent.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Deductive logic would show that it's the Y chromosome (male) that the zygots or whatever link to.
Deductive logic would show that it's just that GW's writers had no idea what they were talking about and wanted an excuse to not have SM women because their attempts to make minis of them were horrific.
BaronIveagh wrote:Pause this for a moment. You, ironically, are completely ignoring fluff, in this case. Because SM are stated to expressly look for those 'one in a bajillion' people to recruit to be space marines. So arguing 'well they're super rare!' does not mean anything in this case.
If that post went that far over your head, then I don't know of any simpler, or easier way to break it down for you. You so completely missed the point of an idea reduced to Barney Style, that the only thing left below it is Teletubbies style, and that just involves babbling nonsensically and a sun with a baby's face.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Pause this for a moment. You, ironically, are completely ignoring fluff, in this case. Because SM are stated to expressly look for those 'one in a bajillion' people to recruit to be space marines. So arguing 'well they're super rare!' does not mean anything in this case.
Your reasoning is so incoherent that it borders on nonsensical. The argument is that exceptional women can be better than average men, but exceptional women are still bested by exceptional men (let's be clear, we're talking just pure physical terms here). So, no, he's not ignoring fluff at all and you just further supported his argument. If it takes an exceptional male physical specimen to make a Space Marine, then even an exceptional female is not up to par.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
It might also amuse you to learn that exceptions don't prove anything. Thanks for playing though; we've already gone over this.
Pick a fight with a random one. Fifty to one you eat dirt.
Strike 2.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Well obviously you want a myostatin inhibitor, that's what the drugs in the Space Marine are. That's all of the AAS and growth hormone, except it's a futuristic version I'm sure.
Futuristic or not, they make the testosterone irreverent.
Not entirely, it's still important for development. And you ignored me talking about progesterone, conveniently just like Melissia. I'm beginning to sense a pattern
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Deductive logic would show that it's the Y chromosome (male) that the zygots or whatever link to.
Deductive logic would show that it's just that GW's writers had no idea what they were talking about.
Well no durr, you have 8 foot soldiers in tank armor. You have tons of unrealistic crud in 40k. But for some reason, female marines is the point of contention? Guess what, it's all fiction. And this is part of the fiction. You'll just have to deal with it, especially since it's one of those pieces of background that is not gonna change.
Vladsimpaler wrote:[
Well no durr, you have 8 foot soldiers in tank armor. You have tons of unrealistic crud in 40k. But for some reason, female marines is the point of contention? Guess what, it's all fiction. And this is part of the fiction. You'll just have to deal with it, especially since it's one of those pieces of background that is not gonna change.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
So in then end, despite all your tries to give some vague justification your whole case boils down to...No reason really.
Melissia wrote:In essence, I'm saying the following:
-- GW's restriction of SM only being male makes no sense from a scientific standpoint, but what makes even less sense is the nerdrage that goes in to threads like these.
Surely you're including your own nerdrage at the canonical refutation of the idea of female Space Marines.
However, it seems disingenuous to claim that the science of 40K makes no sense if you've been shown to be arguing against real world science, obviously unsuccessfully. Besides, if it's 40K science, and it doesn't make any sense, but still has to be accepted as true in the universe of 40K, then it's irrelevant. You don't get to have it both ways. You can either argue all of the science or all of the fluff, but you don't get to cherry pick the parts that work for your argument.
Well, I take that back. You do. But that's probably because you're being disingenuous, like usual.
-- Despite assertions to the contrary, women in 40k are equally competent to men in terms of being able to fight.
Some women compared to some men in the absence of proof that all women are the equal of all men, or even that those some women are the equal of all men.
(muscle strength isn't actually that important when you have a gun, after all).
Categorically and unequivocally wrong. It's actually wrong to say that muscle strength isn't even important when you have a gun because the ability to carry and use the gun under extreme fatigue is important, especially in protracted engagements and deployments. So, even though, superficially, it would seem like so long as you possess the sufficient minimum arm strength to lift the gun after being at rest, and the sufficient finger strength to manipulate the trigger, the truth of the matter is that nearly everything in a combat scenario is going to be done with ever-increasing levels of fatigue. Of course, acknowledging this is the difference between someone who knows what they are talking about, and someone whose combat experience stems from holding a controller, rolling dice, or at best having gone to the shooting range a few times.
Melissia wrote:]muscle strength isn't actually that important when you have a gun, after all
I've already countered this point. It's completely relevant, as the ability to carry more gear further and faster (and still have the stamina left to fight at the end of it all) is very important in a soldier. If a man's extra strength means he can carry an extra four lasgun cells, two more frag grenades and isn't as exhausted by having marched thirty miles in heavy body armour, he is the more effective soldier.
If there were such things as female Space Marines, the chemical diet and hormonal treatment that the females get would render the entire discussion on prowess pointless because it would change how the females developed during their formative years.
And would give you a woman who wouldn't be in the slightest feminine.
Putting geneseed in a woman (if it worked) might give you something that performed like a Marine, but it sure wouldn't look like a lady.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If that post went that far over your head, then I don't know of any simpler, or easier way to break it down for you. You so completely missed the point of an idea reduced to Barney Style, that the only thing left below it is Teletubbies style, and that just involves babbling nonsensically and a sun with a baby's face.
No, it didn't go over my head, I just ignored the parts that you presented nothing but supposition for.
BTW: have you ever have to carry a guy to the doc because some native woman did a pretty good job of slitting your buddy from balls to brisket?
If not, take my advice: women are just as deadly as men in hand to hand combat, and underestimating them because they're women is a good way to get laid out on a slab.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Well no durr, you have 8 foot soldiers in tank armor. You have tons of unrealistic crud in 40k. But for some reason, female marines is the point of contention? Guess what, it's all fiction. And this is part of the fiction. You'll just have to deal with it, especially since it's one of those pieces of background that is not gonna change.
That does essentially seem to be the primary point of contention.
If it is all fiction (as GW hasn't really done its due diligence in basic biology. heck, the folks who came up with the T-Virus in Resident Evil/Biohazard at least tried to piggyback off some results in virology/neurology) - then quite frankly anything is possible.
The reason why it wont happen then is a very real world/market driven one.
Like it or not - WH40K is geared toward men of a certain socio-economic background living in circumstances that allow for the amount of leisure time and possessing the necessary amount of disposable income to engage in it.
That "slice of the market" will not include women. Frankly because Women Wargamers are a rarer breed than Women Roleplayers or Women Video Gamers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Surely you're including your own nerdrage at the canonical refutation of the idea of female Space Marines.
I've never stated any intention to make said chapter, or even really stated any particular like in relation to the subject. So that's a rather trollish thing to say, methinks.
As for the rest of your post, when people become so offended that they start throwing insults around, I do try to not pay much attention.
I've already countered this point. It's completely relevant, as the ability to carry more gear further and faster (and still have the stamina left to fight at the end of it all) is very important in a soldier. If a man's extra strength means he can carry an extra four lasgun cells, two more frag grenades and isn't as exhausted by having marched thirty miles in heavy body armour, he is the more effective soldier.
Vladsimpaler wrote:[ Well no durr, you have 8 foot soldiers in tank armor. You have tons of unrealistic crud in 40k. But for some reason, female marines is the point of contention? Guess what, it's all fiction. And this is part of the fiction. You'll just have to deal with it, especially since it's one of those pieces of background that is not gonna change.
Kind Regards, Vladsimpaler
So in then end, despite all your tries to give some vague justification your whole case boils down to...No reason really.
Lol, your weak-ass arguments are all based in opinion and mean nothing when my entire argument is backed by a piece of background that has been there since the game began.
MarcoSkoll wrote: If a man's extra strength means he can carry an extra four lasgun cells, two more frag grenades and isn't as exhausted by having marched thirty miles in heavy body armour, he is the more effective soldier.
Which itself isn't actually necessarily proven by the facts-- as far as endurance goes, what I've read from Israeli research on the issue has shown that when using proper training technique and properly fitting clothing and armor, female soldiers aren't really lacking in endurance, but rather maximum capable strength. A lot of the problems that modern armies are having is being found to be linked more to them giving the female soldiers inferior, improperly fitting uniforms and armor which was designed for men, and training exercises which are designed with only men in mind.
And when you're taking power armor in to the equation, it's especially less important as fatigue becomes far less of an issue.
MarcoSkoll wrote:Putting geneseed in a woman (if it worked) might give you something that performed like a Marine, but it sure wouldn't look like a lady.
I was a United States Marine, in an infantry company for much of it at that (and an additional amount of time weapons instructing, and then teaching weapons instructors). I was in for ten years, all in years that start with 2. I'll let you do the math on how many wars that means I served through. That's not to brag; it's just to give you an idea of my experience so you can ask more relevant and effective questions.
But you're still not offering anything relevant or useful. So one native woman sliced one idiot from balls to brisket. Okay. I mean, I can't counter that by walking from here to the beach and beating the absolute crap out of every woman I meet just to give you some anecdotal evidence to the contrary, lol. Well, I guess I could, but that seems a bit ungentlemanly and liable to lead to prosecution.
Lol, your weak-ass arguments are all based in opinion and mean nothing
Funny I was thinking the very thing about your sad little arguments.
Vladsimpaler wrote: my entire argument is backed by a piece of background that has been there since the game began.
No. Your arument was based off bull that hass been shown to be wrong, it was based off false pudo science, and a clear lack of understanding both what women can do, have done, how they function in a military unit and an over all hand waving of "Oh men can do that better" even when shown some things they simply can not.
It was only afteryou kept being proven wrong that your threw up your hands and cried "well its always been that way" which avoids the very fact that the way it has always been is both Arbitrary and complete BS.
BaronIveagh wrote:If not, take my advice: women are just as deadly as men in hand to hand combat, and underestimating them because they're women is a good way to get laid out on a slab.
It's because you underestimated them that they had the chance to be as deadly. Women have a shorter reach and lesser strength, and that inherently leaves them at a disadvantage.
You wouldn't stand around arguing that a smaller, weaker guy isn't at a disadvantage against a bigger stronger guy, so how does being female somehow confer a superpower that overcomes those same physical disadvantages? Well, beyond cocky blokes that misunderestimate you. But boobs don't work on Orks.
Melissia wrote:Isn't that what I just said?
...I'm pretty sure you've spent the whole time arguing that women can be physically different but suffer no penalties to their physical performance. Well, that and ignoring a lot of what I've posted.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Some women compared to some men in the absence of proof that all women are the equal of all men, or even that those some women are the equal of all men.
Except those terms from the RPGs that you refuse to admit are ALSO canon, unless they support your position. Such as the argument that only men can become SM, which no longer appears in C:SM as of 5th, IIRC.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Categorically and unequivocally wrong. It's actually wrong to say that muscle strength isn't even important when you have a gun because the ability to carry and use the gun under extreme fatigue is important, especially in protracted engagements and deployments. So, even though, superficially, it would seem like so long as you possess the sufficient minimum arm strength to lift the gun after being at rest, and the sufficient finger strength to manipulate the trigger, the truth of the matter is that nearly everything in a combat scenario is going to be done with ever-increasing levels of fatigue. Of course, acknowledging this is the difference between someone who knows what they are talking about, and someone whose combat experience stems from holding a controller, rolling dice, or at best having gone to the shooting range a few times.
I might point out that men can only do those things (arguably in some cases) marginally better than women because of development that would take place long after you would begin your induction into the Space Marines, and is heavily altered by the process to become a SM. So, how is it relevant?
In addition: you're forgetting that power armor, in fluff, is quite capable of carrying a full combat load, even if the person inside it is not. Even a SM has a hard time firing a heavy bolter naked.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Not entirely, it's still important for development. And you ignored me talking about progesterone, conveniently just like Melissia. I'm beginning to sense a pattern
Was ignoring it because at the point in biological development that SM are recruited, it's a non-issue, since hormone levels are approx equal at that stage.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Well no durr, you have 8 foot soldiers in tank armor. You have tons of unrealistic crud in 40k. But for some reason, female marines is the point of contention? Guess what, it's all fiction. And this is part of the fiction. You'll just have to deal with it, especially since it's one of those pieces of background that is not gonna change.
Until the moment GW decides there's money in it. and they already pulled it from the Codex, IIRC.
Omegus wrote:
Your reasoning is so incoherent that it borders on nonsensical. The argument is that exceptional women can be better than average men, but exceptional women are still bested by exceptional men (let's be clear, we're talking just pure physical terms here). So, no, he's not ignoring fluff at all and you just further supported his argument. If it takes an exceptional male physical specimen to make a Space Marine, then even an exceptional female is not up to par.
Ok, deep breath now. His assertion was that it takes an exceptional woman to beat an average man in the same weight. Studies have found there to be 0 difference between the sexes when it came to strength at the same body mass. (Wescott, 1992) The real advantage is that men typically mass more than a female fighter. He ignores the relative level of skill, experience, and difference of technique.
MarcoSkoll wrote:
You wouldn't stand around arguing that a smaller, weaker guy isn't at a disadvantage against a bigger stronger guy, so how does being female somehow confer a superpower that overcomes those same physical disadvantages? Well, beyond cocky blokes that misunderestimate you. But boobs don't work on Orks.
Except a Female SM does not lack, reach, or body strength. The SM take strong guys, short guys, fast cunning guys. Not every SM starts out at 6'5, 250 pounds and uniform. Even after they are done they are far from uniform. You have some that are larger then the other, some that are lanky( well for a SM anyhow) and some that are short or weaker or stronger. SM are not clones, they are not all they same. Now if you took a female who happen to best out the other children in the age group at testing, what does it matter she is female? she may end up weaker then some of the Male SM, but then some Male SM are weaker. By the time transformation is finished, assuming they survive a female Sm will be just as freaking terrifying and just as effective. So what they are "Only" 11 and a half times better" then a normal Human and not 12. Once you place them In power armor, you would be very, very hard pressed to tell one SM from another, and lifting is even more enhanced by the armor.
The diffidence is really insignificant The true diffidence comes in the time it takes to trains new SM as you have increased recruiting by 25- 50%
Melissia wrote:
-- GW's restriction of SM only being male makes no sense from a scientific standpoint, but what makes even less sense is the nerdrage that goes in to threads like these.
-- Despite assertions to the contrary, women in 40k are equally competent to men in terms of being able to fight. Especially amongst unaugmented human soldiers on an actual battlefield (muscle strength isn't actually that important when you have a gun, after all).
-- If there were such things as female Space Marines, the chemical diet and hormonal treatment that the females get would render the entire discussion on prowess pointless because it would change how the females developed during their formative years.
I have to disagree with your first point... except for the nerdrage portion.
While the reason GW didn't include FSM is probably a fraternal/misogynistic/aesthetic choice, there are plenty of reasons why it would be less feasible to create supersoldiers out of women. Two that I find very convincing are as follows:
-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
-- Additionally, if there is a system for producing super soldiers from males, there would need to be an alternate system for females, given the differences in hormonal balances and physiology. As someone previously mentioned, if they needed billions of SM, then yes, they would probably need to resort to using females as a resource. But they do not, so there is no reason to do so.
I agree somewhat with your second point, but I think you vastly underestimate the physical requirements of being an infantryman.
I have seen female soldiers in action and while they are equally accurate on the range with small arms, are just as intelligent, and equally competent in hand to hand fighting techniques, they are nowhere near as effective physically as male soldiers. Put a 50/50 group of soldiers on a 10 mile hike with full gear and the men will easily outpace the women and be a more effective fighting force immediately afterwards. Put a female soldier into a melee situation with a male soldier, even one of the same bodyweight, and generally the male soldier will overpower the female just by virtue of the unequal distribution of muscle mass and increased cardiovascular capacity. Take an average female and an average male and it becomes no contest. Especially in the 40k universe, where melee situations seem to be FAR more prevalent than modern warfare, height, reach, muscle mass and cardiovascular capacity would make female soldiers less effective - not hugely less effective, but appreciably so.
What's more, even canonically, 40k women tend to be described in scouting/sniping/marksman roles whereas their male counterparts fire the heavy stubbers, missile launchers and lug around the ammo crates. Granted, there are some notable exceptions but, as Vlad has already pointed out, exceptions only prove the rule. Add a power sword or other specialized melee weapon and the playing field is greatly evened but again, that merely illustrates the fact that there is still a physical disparity between 40k females and males.
I also agree with your third point to an extent, but it's important to point out that SM applicants live normal, if brutal, lives until they are 16-19 whereupon the thunderhawks swoop in and cart them away to be progenoidized. From birth to the point at which they are selected, they are 100% human and there is no special diet or hormonal treatment the prepare them. In fact, they would be complete with their 'formative' years after puberty (which is probably why the SM have to wait to implant them) and so there's no reason a female would be able to develop equally with a male without additional assistance.
I don't want this to be nasty, and it seems like everyone is bashing the you for no reason, so I'll stop here. While I may disagree with your reasoning, I agree that there is no insurmountable reason why there shouldn't be FSM. It's not impossible, just highly unlikely and unnecessary, which is probably part of the reason GW didn't see fit to include them in their world.
Melissia wrote:In essence, I'm saying the following:
-- GW's restriction of SM only being male makes no sense from a scientific standpoint, but what makes even less sense is the nerdrage that goes in to threads like these.
It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. The Astartes are all male, because the geneseed used in their creation is based on Primarch DNA, who were also all male (even that poofter Fulgrim) because their DNA was in turn based on the Emperor's, who was super-duper Alpha Male.
As you yourself put it, rule of cool. Except, to clarify further, it's the rule of what's cool for boys. Whatever social stratification applies to the men and women of the imaginary 41st millennium, the stories we read are written for adolescent boys. And although that makes us a rather sad group of individuals, please allow me to assure you, with the utmost certainty, that when adolescent boys think of a "cool" girl, they aren't thinking this:
-- Despite assertions to the contrary, women in 40k are equally competent to men in terms of being able to fight. Especially amongst unaugmented human soldiers on an actual battlefield (muscle strength isn't actually that important when you have a gun, after all).
You also claimed that they have absolutely zero physical differences, differing only in social terms. The second part of your argument is equally ludicrous. Especially among unaugmented human soldiers, muscle strength (and increased aerobic capacity) is quite important when you have to lug that gun and its ammunition, as well as all your other gear, around said battlefield for hours/days at a time.
-- If there were such things as female Space Marines, the chemical diet and hormonal treatment that the females get would render the entire discussion on prowess pointless because it would change how the females developed during their formative years.
There are numerous examples of girls beginning hormone therapy at an early age, and growing up to look like very passable men, but while they're certainly not women, they still aren't men. Why go through all that trouble, when there are plenty of men to throw into the meat-grinder, whereas the women are needed to ensure there are always plenty more on the way?
Actually, you know what? Nevermind. Looking again at that picture above, that's pretty much what Fulgrim is described to look like. So there's probably a damn good chance at least one Legion is smuggling girly parts. That's why the Emperor gave them the aquila to wear on their chest, so they could conceal their rosebuds.
While the reason GW didn't include FSM is probably a fraternal/misogynistic/aesthetic choice, there are plenty of reasons why it would be less feasible to create supersoldiers out of women. Two that I find very convincing are as follows:
-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
-- Additionally, if there is a system for producing super soldiers from males, there would need to be an alternate system for females, given the differences in hormonal balances and physiology. As someone previously mentioned, if they needed billions of SM, then yes, they would probably need to resort to using females as a resource. But they do not, so there is no reason to do so.:
Teensy nitpick, the Adeptus Astartes can only select from children and early teenagers without drastically increasing the risk of something going wrong. So they'd probably be 5'5 if not shorter anyway.
MarcoSkoll wrote:...I'm pretty sure you've spent the whole time arguing that women can be physically different but suffer no penalties to their physical performance.
I was arguing that they would be physically different from women who underwent a normal childhood and far closer, if not almost exactly the same as, "male" marines (though honestly marines shouldn't really havea gender, but I digress).
DogOfWar wrote:
-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
Well no, they take the strongest or toughest or sometimes just the most cunning of Children. They do not take grown men and do not always take someone because they are strong. Each chapter has its own way, but the ones I have read often test them and sometimes its simply a test will oneself to make it to the finish, to last days on no water, to take a beaten or survive in the jungle alone. At that Age there is often physically not all that much of a difference between male and female. It takes about the same amount of time to turn one 8 year old child into a Astarte as it does another 8 year old child
DogOfWar wrote:-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
False. They are chosen from prepubescent preteenagers. If they were going by sheer size, at that age they'd pick girls, not boys.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The SM take strong guys, short guys, fast cunning guys. Not every SM starts out at 6'5, 250 pounds and uniform. Even after they are done they are far from uniform. You have some that are larger then the other, some that are lanky( well for a SM anyhow) and some that are short or weaker or stronger.
All the canon I have read regarding SM led me to believe the opposite of this claim. Aspirants are almost unanimously over 6' and are generally strong fighters that have to earn their place in trials before any augmentation takes place. I might have missed something though, where did you get your evidence from?
Hunterindarkness wrote:The diffidence is really insignificant The true diffidence comes in the time it takes to trains new SM as you have increased recruiting by 25- 50%
The word is 'difference.'
But why is there any reason to boost recruiting by 25-50%? Chapters cannot exceed 1000 individuals (as per the codex astartes) and even if decimated, finding 1000 male aspirants out of a whole planet's worth of people would be easy.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I was a United States Marine, in an infantry company for much of it at that (and an additional amount of time weapons instructing, and then teaching weapons instructors). I was in for ten years, all in years that start with 2. I'll let you do the math on how many wars that means I served through. That's not to brag; it's just to give you an idea of my experience so you can ask more relevant and effective questions.
Congrats. How many of those ten years at Camp Lejeune?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DogOfWar wrote:All the canon I have read regarding SM led me to believe the opposite of this claim. Aspirants are almost unanimously over 6' and are generally strong fighters that have to earn their place in trials before any augmentation takes place. I might have missed something though, where did you get your evidence from?
Might pick up the Ultramarines novels or Creation of a Space Marine. SM (other than SW, for some reason) typically recruit pre-pubescents.
Melissia wrote:As for the rest of your post, when people become so offended that they start throwing insults around, I do try to not pay much attention.
Translation: I can't dispute your argument, which offends me, therefore I'm just going to ignore it and thus be "right" by default.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I was a United States Marine, in an infantry company for much of it at that (and an additional amount of time weapons instructing, and then teaching weapons instructors). I was in for ten years, all in years that start with 2. I'll let you do the math on how many wars that means I served through. That's not to brag; it's just to give you an idea of my experience so you can ask more relevant and effective questions.
But you're still not offering anything relevant or useful. So one native woman sliced one idiot from balls to brisket. Okay. I mean, I can't counter that by walking from here to the beach and beating the absolute crap out of every woman I meet just to give you some anecdotal evidence to the contrary, lol. Well, I guess I could, but that seems a bit ungentlemanly and liable to lead to prosecution.
Why not? Go for it, dude.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The way it has always been is both Arbitrary and complete BS.
When you finish crying that river, you should build a bridge and get over it. It's part of the setting. If you don't like it, you are perfectly within your rights to create your own alternate storylines, with GW's blessing (as long as you don't make any money).
DogOfWar wrote:-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
False. They are chosen from prepubescent preteenagers. If they were going by sheer size, at that age they'd pick girls, not boys.
They are definitely not prepubescent in the Space Wolf novels. Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.
But that was the only response to my entire post you had? I guess that's what I get for appreciating your position, defending your viewpoint, and trying to be nice.
What a waste of time. Feel free to continue cherry picking from people's posts and feeling like you've accomplished something.
DoW
EDIT - Nightbringer chapter 2, Uriel is 14 when he starts training on Macragge. He's also described as being one of the youngest aspirants.
I asked this before and no one found one. Is there a codex that says SM are male only? I know FFG says that, but people don't take everything in them as completely cannon.
DogOfWar wrote:-- Astartes applicants are generally chosen from the biggest, strongest individuals on their recruitment planets. Changing a 6'4", 280lbs brute into an 8' giant is probably easier than someone who is 5'5" and 140lbs.
False. They are chosen from prepubescent preteenagers. If they were going by sheer size, at that age they'd pick girls, not boys.
They are definitely not prepubescent in the Space Wolf novels. Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.
But that was the only response to my entire post you had? I guess that's what I get for appreciating your position, defending your viewpoint, and trying to be nice.
What a waste of time. Feel free to continue cherry picking from people's posts and feeling like you've accomplished something.
DoW
According to the Space Wolves novel Ragnar was barely old enough to have his voice cracking, this implies an age range of about 12-14, rather late for a space marine. As for the Ultramarines, Uriel Ventris was what? Six or Eight when he was brought in?
DogOfWar wrote: Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.
Grind to a halt here: Not what Ventris says. IIRC he talks about a particular incident when he was sixteen, and it may be when he was selected to be sent to a particular barracks, but he also states that he had earned it, so his actual selection to be an Ultramarine was probably earlier.
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nomotog wrote:I asked this before and no one found one. Is there a codex that says SM are male only? I know FFG says that, but people don't take everything in them as completely cannon.
Previous codecies did, however, IIRC it was omitted in 5th.
EDIT: In Chains of Command, Ventris' narration states: 'Since the age of six, he had been training to bring death to the Emperor's enemies..."
DogOfWar wrote:All the canon I have read regarding SM led me to believe the opposite of this claim. Aspirants are almost unanimously over 6' and are generally strong fighters that have to earn their place in trials before any augmentation takes place. I might have missed something though, where did you get your evidence from?
I do not know where you got that, I do not have the books on me now but if ya look at this link http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.T5XpAtlA50I you will see the idea time to start the first three implants( not training or selection which would have already happened) is ages 10-14. Older then that the rejection gets worse.
How many 8 and 9 year old you know even a whiff of 5'5"?
DogOfWar wrote:The word is 'difference.'
But why is there any reason to boost recruiting by 25-50%? Chapters cannot exceed 1000 individuals (as per the codex astartes) and even if decimated, finding 1000 male aspirants out of a whole planet's worth of people would be easy.
First off, blame spell check. The words are a bit to similar to me and I often get em wrong. as to why, replacements man, at any one time you could be down 10-50 percent( a random number I pulled out of thine air) or better. SM die, often and a lot. and as it takes 8 years to transform and train a single replacement , which a good number of those dying before it is done.Do you not think it is a good idea to recruit more? Or at the very lest expand the pool of recruits to take the very best, not just the very best of 50% of the population.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Except a Female SM does not lack, reach, or body strength.
If they retained any feminine qualities, yes they would. Narrower torso, wider hips or lesser height - all of these things are what makes women less physically strong.
If a lady Marine could still be identified as a lady (beyond facial/voice differences, having to study her naughty parts or pervy tech-adepts giving her H-cup armour) those physical differences would affect her reach, body strength and cardiovascular limits.
By the time you get a female Marine that is an equal for a male Marine, she'd be so alike in appearance that the it'd be moot beyond which bathroom they had to use. Mind you, maybe that's a reason for making them: "We can't go in there, Captain, that's the ladies. Someone get Sergeant Dolores to do it."
If people want their female super-soldiers to be curvaceous and still match the physical performance of male marines, geneseed is not the way to go about it.
DogOfWar wrote:They are definitely not prepubescent in the Space Wolf novels. Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.
This information was taken from the Games Workshop website (which I'm not sure if this specific article is still up yet, and White Dwarf #98. It refers to the order in which implants should be introduced, and the ages at which they are ideally introduced to the initiate.
Spoiler:
-- Phases 1-3 [secondary heart, ossmodula, biscopea] can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 10 and 14 years of age. -- Phases 4 [Haemastamen] and 5 [Larraman's Organ] can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 12 and 14 years of age. -- Hypnotherapy normally begins at phase 6 [Catalepsean Node], ideally sometime between 14 and 17 years of age. -- Phases 7 to 9 [Preomor, Omophagea, Multi-Lung] are normally introduced simultaneously, ideally at a point between 14 and 16 years old. The following series of organs are also ideally implanted between the ages of 14 and 16. -- Phases 14 [Occulobe] and 15 [Lyman's Ear] may be introduced at the same time, ideally between 15 and 16 years of age. -- The remaining series of implants [Sus-an Membrane, Melanchromic Organ, Golitic Kidney, Neuroglottis, Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Progenoids, Black Carapace] are then ideally introduced to the recipient between the ages of 16 and 18.
DogOfWar wrote:But that was the only response to my entire post you had?
No, but I admit I'm getting rather tired of the insult-tossing and flame-baiting (which is not related to you) in this thread, so my desire to respond isn't exactly high right now. I'll read over the posts again after my Rogue Trader roleplay that if you want, though it'll be a few hours.
Kain wrote:According to the Space Wolves novel Ragnar was barely old enough to have his voice cracking, this implies an age range of about 12-14, rather late for a space marine. As for the Ultramarines, Uriel Ventris was what? Six or Eight when he was brought in?
Uriel was 14 and "young for an aspirant" and Ragnar was out of puberty having "become a man", has sex, and fights hand to hand with older, battle-hardened tribesmen. If he's 12, then he's a pretty intimidating 12.
DogOfWar wrote:
While the reason GW didn't include FSM is probably a fraternal/misogynistic/aesthetic choice
Shouldn't that be enough for an explanation? Well that and $$$$$$.
I mean - this thread has gone of the rails from the initial question asked - mainly because people keep jumping between real-world experiences and the realm of fiction.
So we can try to center this in legitimate differences between the genders in terms of physical capacities...but then the biology breaks down at the chromosomal level because the fiction never bothered (never cared?) to explicate about how this is done.
Which results in "A Wizard Did it." style of explanation - its Fiction, ergo it works.
Ok...so we can go with the "Its Fiction" explanation - but precisely because its Fiction there aren't any particular hardened rules of biology. Which means the difference in physical capacities can be thrown out the window....if the writer so chooses.
It just makes a lot more sense to simply acknowledge that this was a consumer strategy by GW. Whether one feels right or wrong about it is a different issue altogether.
Melissia wrote:This information was taken from the Games Workshop website (which I'm not sure if this specific article is still up yet, and White Dwarf #98. It refers to the order in which implants should be introduced, and the ages at which they are ideally introduced to the initiate.
Spoiler:
-- Phases 1-3 [secondary heart, ossmodula, biscopea] can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 10 and 14 years of age.
-- Phases 4 [Haemastamen] and 5 [Larraman's Organ] can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 12 and 14 years of age.
-- Hypnotherapy normally begins at phase 6 [Catalepsean Node], ideally sometime between 14 and 17 years of age.
-- Phases 7 to 9 [Preomor, Omophagea, Multi-Lung] are normally introduced simultaneously, ideally at a point between 14 and 16 years old. The following series of organs are also ideally implanted between the ages of 14 and 16.
-- Phases 14 [Occulobe] and 15 [Lyman's Ear] may be introduced at the same time, ideally between 15 and 16 years of age.
-- The remaining series of implants [Sus-an Membrane, Melanchromic Organ, Golitic Kidney, Neuroglottis, Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Progenoids, Black Carapace] are then ideally introduced to the recipient between the ages of 16 and 18.
Evidently there is a disparity between then novels and what GW wants to indicate. Perhaps to appeal to younger players? Aspirants are clearly older in both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels before they even begin their implants.
Melissia wrote:No, but I admit I'm getting rather tired of the insult-tossing and flame-baiting (which is not related to you) in this thread, so my desire to respond isn't exactly high right now. I'll read over the posts again after my Rogue Trader roleplay that if you want, though it'll be a few hours.
MarcoSkoll wrote:If they retained any feminine qualities, yes they would. Narrower torso, wider hips or lesser height - all of these things are what makes women less physically strong.
Yeah, but counter that with a lower center of gravity and a modification to the power armor's paldrons and you have one nasty power weapon user due to the smaller target and shorter arc.
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DogOfWar wrote:Uriel was 14 and "young for an aspirant"
And, again, Uriel states he began at six years old in Chains of Command. He was assigned his Barracks later.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not know where you got that, I do not have the books on me now but if ya look at this link http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.T5XpAtlA50I you will see the idea time to start the first three implants( not training or selection which would have already happened) is ages 10-14. Older then that the rejection gets worse.
How many 8 and 9 year old you know even a whiff of 5'5"?
Evidently what GW lists and what they allow black library writers to indicate, are not the same things. Both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels only start their training, let alone implants, at 14+.
Hunterindarkness wrote:[...] as to why, replacements man, at any one time you could be down 10-50 percent( a random number I pulled out of thine air) or better. SM die, often and a lot. and as it takes 8 years to transform and train a single replacement , which a good number of those dying before it is done.Do you not think it is a good idea to recruit more? Or at the very lest expand the pool of recruits to take the very best, not just the very best of 50% of the population.
But it seems that they have recruitment continuing constantly so there is always a new influx of Marines as others die. Again, if they lost a huge number (say 500+) all at once, it still wouldn't be difficult to find 500 able-bodied males to fill the ranks. There's no incentive to include women as aspirants unless you're sorely lacking in numbers, which SM never are by virtue of their small numbers anyway.
Which itself isn't actually necessarily proven by the facts-- as far as endurance goes, what I've read from Israeli research on the issue has shown that when using proper training technique and properly fitting clothing and armor, female soldiers aren't really lacking in endurance, but rather maximum capable strength. A lot of the problems that modern armies are having is being found to be linked more to them giving the female soldiers inferior, improperly fitting uniforms and armor which was designed for men, and training exercises which are designed with only men in mind.
And when you're taking power armor in to the equation, it's especially less important as fatigue becomes far less of an issue.
Every major and medium military power in the world has lower fitness standards for women than for men. Same idea, ideal body fat % for women is way higher than for men, and this is NOT simply to account for fat tissue present in breasts, btw.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not know where you got that, I do not have the books on me now but if ya look at this link http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.T5XpAtlA50I you will see the idea time to start the first three implants( not training or selection which would have already happened) is ages 10-14. Older then that the rejection gets worse.
How many 8 and 9 year old you know even a whiff of 5'5"?
Evidently what GW lists and what they allow black library writers to indicate, are not the same things. Both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels only start their training, let alone implants, at 14+.
Hunterindarkness wrote:[...] as to why, replacements man, at any one time you could be down 10-50 percent( a random number I pulled out of thine air) or better. SM die, often and a lot. and as it takes 8 years to transform and train a single replacement , which a good number of those dying before it is done.Do you not think it is a good idea to recruit more? Or at the very lest expand the pool of recruits to take the very best, not just the very best of 50% of the population.
But it seems that they have recruitment continuing constantly so there is always a new influx of Marines as others die. Again, if they lost a huge number (say 500+) all at once, it still wouldn't be difficult to find 500 able-bodied males to fill the ranks. There's no incentive to include women as aspirants unless you're sorely lacking in numbers, which SM never are by virtue of their small numbers anyway.
DoW
Again, Uriel explicitly says that he was SIX when he was selected for the Ultramarines, he just didn't get assigned to a barracks until later.
And if your voice cracks at age 16 you have some massively delayed puberty.
DogOfWar wrote: Evidently there is a disparity between then novels and what GW wants to indicate.
Should this really surprise any of us?
They already have a "Get out of Jail Free" card in terms of sticky situations between novels and Codices.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
nomotog wrote:I asked this before and no one found one. Is there a codex that says SM are male only? I know FFG says that, but people don't take everything in them as completely cannon.
It dates back all the way to the 1988 White Dwarf Article "The Origins of the Legiones Astartes" by Rick Priestley, which was reprinted numerous times as "The Creation of a Space Marine" or something similar in multiple books including the Index Astartes articles and books. The description in the Deathwatch rulebook is pretty much identical, information-wise. When you look at the sheer number of times the fluff has been changed, details have been changed, even names have been changed and new characters invented, the process for creating Space Marines has been almost identical since 1988. It's probably the oldest surviving bit of fluff there is to the 40K canon that has never been changed or rendered obsolete. The language used was: "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types".
Evidently what GW lists and what they allow black library writers to indicate, are not the same things. Both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels only start their training, let alone implants, at 14+.
Sons of Dorn says 12-14 is the range they look for, though compatibility last for 10-16, I would simply assume that 12-14 has the implants take better.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Every major and medium military power in the world has lower fitness standards for women than for men. Same idea, ideal body fat % for women is way higher than for men, and this is NOT simply to account for fat tissue present in breasts, btw.
Yes, but the question is how much of that is a hold over from centuries of the 'barefoot and pregnant' mindset? Unfortunately the Israelis and the Swiss are the only ones to examine this in depth, and both have more or less come to the same conclusion. (Which can be damn impressive in a fight)
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:[ It's probably the oldest surviving bit of fluff there is to the 40K canon that has never been changed or rendered obsolete. The language used was: "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types".
Except for the part where it was cut in the most recent edition. Now it only soldiers on in FFG's RPGs, which some people claim are inadmissible here.
Kain wrote:According to the Space Wolves novel Ragnar was barely old enough to have his voice cracking, this implies an age range of about 12-14, rather late for a space marine. As for the Ultramarines, Uriel Ventris was what? Six or Eight when he was brought in?
He became an acolyte at 6, but the actual implantation process did not begin until he was around 15-16. The age when the process can begin seems to be quite variable. According to older fluff, including Creation of the Space Marine, the ideal age is between 10 and 14, at the onset of puberty. This is probably how the Space Marines were originally created on Terra, and this seemingly would produce the best/most reliable results. As an additional advantage, this gives you plenty of time for indoctrination, which is probably why so many Terran Astartes rejected their Primarchs and/or ended up being purged from the Traitor Legions by their native brothers.
Then again, the Dark Angels picked squires for enhancement around 16, and their production rate and efficiency was unparalleled (98% success rate I think? it was mentioned as an extraordinary accomplishment by any standard in Fallen Angels), going from human to a full-fledged battle-brother in just 2 years. So it seems that delaying the process is not disadvantageous, which makes sense given that the hormonal makeup of male adolescence allows for a delayed, slower and longer growth spurt (unlike in women, where higher levels of estradiol and estrogen seal the epiphysial plates and end the grown spurt early in order to focus on developing the reproductive system. Oh my, this post almost threatens to be on topic!).
Space Wolves have their own unique twist on the process, with the Canis Helix and the whole "go wander naked in the arctic wilderness, and if you survive to come back and don't turn into a werewolf, you can be a Space Wolf". IIRC, Blood Angels also recruit from a savage death world, picking the most grizzled and deadly.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not know where you got that, I do not have the books on me now but if ya look at this link http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.T5XpAtlA50I you will see the idea time to start the first three implants( not training or selection which would have already happened) is ages 10-14. Older then that the rejection gets worse.
How many 8 and 9 year old you know even a whiff of 5'5"?
Evidently what GW lists and what they allow black library writers to indicate, are not the same things. Both the Space Wolf and Ultramarines novels only start their training, let alone implants, at 14+.
The Space Wolf novels are rather... liberal... with the details and adherence to canon. They were written by somebody who wanted to write about awesome, drunken Space Vikings, and not actual Space Marines, lol. When you think about the Space Wolf recruitment model, it doesn't make any sense. They keep their planet permanently in a state of archaic tribal warfare in order to breed the best recruits and select only the most worthy, however, they have to select these candidates based on "worthiness" by the time they are 6-8 years old. Long before any normal human has begun to mature physically and prove themselves on a battlefield.
From the article I referenced in my prior post, it says very clearly that an initiate needs to receive their first implants by the time they are 10-14 years old, and the last ones have to be implanted before they are 18. However, that's just the physical requirements. The recruits need a ton of indoctrination and other chem/bio preparation before they even receive the first implants. The recruits are stringently screened, because it would be wasteful to start the implant process only to find out later that the recruit wasn't suitable, mentally or physiologically. Hence why most of the fluff suggests the Chapters start screening candidates around 6 years old.
DogOfWar wrote: Nor are they in the Ultramarines novels. They take their applicants at around the age of 16, which is well into puberty for most males.
Grind to a halt here: Not what Ventris says. IIRC he talks about a particular incident when he was sixteen, and it may be when he was selected to be sent to a particular barracks, but he also states that he had earned it, so his actual selection to be an Ultramarine was probably earlier.
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nomotog wrote:I asked this before and no one found one. Is there a codex that says SM are male only? I know FFG says that, but people don't take everything in them as completely cannon.
Previous codecies did, however, IIRC it was omitted in 5th.
EDIT: In Chains of Command, Ventris' narration states: 'Since the age of six, he had been training to bring death to the Emperor's enemies..."
DogOfWar wrote:Uriel was 14 and "young for an aspirant"
And, again, Uriel states he began at six years old in Chains of Command. He was assigned his Barracks later.
"Since the age of six, he had been trained to bring death to the Emperor's enemies and normally felt a surge of justifiable pride in his lethal skills. [...] would not have survived a single month in the Agiselus Barracks on Macragge where Uriel had trained so many years ago." (McNeil, Chains of Command)
"Memories came tumbling over themselves, one in particular reaching up from over a century ago. He had just turned fourteen, barely a month since he had first been brought to the temple of Hera" (McNeil, Nightbringer)
Humans on the worlds controlled by the Ultramarines are all trained from an early age, like Cadians, but are selected as Space Marines much later. Agiselus Barracks is a prep-school for the Ultramarines. If selected, they continue training (including implantation) at the Fortress of Hera.
BaronIveagh wrote:Except for the part where it was cut in the most recent edition. Now it only soldiers on in FFG's RPGs, which some people claim are inadmissible here.
This is an incredibly tenuous argument, that would get you laughed out of class in any intellectual discussion, so picture me laughing at you, the whole class laughing at you, and you slinking out of the room to go drop the section.
The current codex does indeed lack the phrasing that all recruits must be male. However, the pronouns are exclusively male (he, his, him), and repeatedly use the term "man", as well as "brother".
I understand your desperation, but you can't cite one book to overturn dozens of others, lol. Especially when the book offers no proof of your claim, only a lack of proof against it. I mean, the book also doesn't say anywhere that the Space Marines can't be Eldar, or cows.
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nomotog wrote:Why do you think it was omitted?
Because GW figured at this point there was no need to make specific mention of one of its longest running canonical fact?
However, it is obvious they have underestimated the depths of human desperation and obstinancy.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:When you think about the Space Wolf recruitment model, it doesn't make any sense. They keep their planet permanently in a state of archaic tribal warfare in order to breed the best recruits and select only the most worthy, however, they have to select these candidates based on "worthiness" by the time they are 6-8 years old. Long before any normal human has begun to mature physically and prove themselves on a battlefield.
Sure it does. Speculation: Though they receive the first implants at a very late age, they also receive the Canis Helix, by all accounts a powerful mutagen. The physical vigor/regenerative qualities of the nacent wulfen allow some (note, many perish) to adapt to and survive the changes wrought by the geneseed far more quickly. Without the aid of the mutagen, the late implantation would fail and the recruit would be lost.
Not a GW editor. A couple possibilities exist. One is that they're prepping for changes in 6th. You might also notice they changed some of the implants in C:SM for 5th as well, from previous editions. Another is they just wanted to be more maddeningly vague.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I mean, the book also doesn't say anywhere that the Space Marines can't be Eldar, or cows.
Just because fluff appeared in previous books does not mean it's current, either.
While your dripping sarcasm amuses me, I might point out that you offer no proof in current fluff of your own position. Your assertion is 'but everyone knows that...' To which I refute 'Yes, and once everyone knew that the earth was flat.'
Using male pronouns does not justify your position, as it's a common writing convention. Notice that until 3rd edition, the bulk of D&D rulebooks also used almost exclusively male pronouns.
The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.
Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed. I've been around this game since Rogue Trader, and not only have I read almost all the books, I have copies of almost all of them lying around. There isn't a single thing you can't think of that I haven't already given thought to. In fact, I was remembering the silly Half-Eldar Ultramarine a couple hours ago, wondering if anybody would be dumb enough to bring him up as an argument. Congrats?
The more things you try to fetch from the deepest recesses of your exit-only bodily orifices, the sadder and more pathetic this becomes.
Omegus wrote:Well, that guy is not a Space Marine. He is a human/Eldar halfbreed who became an Astropath though, which is pretty damn lulzy already.
You're missing that he's wearing SM power armor. You know, that does require that one be a Space Marine or it does not work, right?
The blurb does not mention an augmentation.
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Ahh, more desperation.
The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.
Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed. I've been around this game since Rogue Trader, and not only have I read almost all the books, I have copies of almost all of them lying around. There isn't a single thing you can't think of that I haven't already given thought to. In fact, I was remembering the silly Half-Eldar Ultramarine a couple hours ago, wondering if anybody would be dumb enough to bring him up as an argument. Congrats?
The more things you try to fetch from the deepest recesses of your exit-only bodily orifices, the sadder and more pathetic this becomes.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The very distinct difference is that the Half-Eldar Ultramarine has been categorically retconned as impossible. The males only for Space Marines has not.
Dude. I'm gonna save you some time. I know so much more about 40K than you do. That is almost guaranteed.
Oh, then please point me to the Codex where he no longer exists, remembering that the current Codex supplants all previous versions (one of the few things that GW is adamant about).
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Omegus wrote:No it doesn't. Ever hear of Sisters of Battle? Or Inquisitors?
Both are radically different from SM powered armor. In this case, Mk V Heresy pattern.
You do know that A: you don't have to be a Space Marine to wear power armor, and B: that guy's fluff is older than the current fluff about Space Marine power armor right?
You see, before you go bandying these things about, it might be important to learn where they came from and when, lol.
In this case, Illiyan Nastase dates back to White Dwarf 97, while Rick Priestley's article was published in White Dwarf 98. Technically, Illiyan Nastase is a: not a Space Marine, and b: was canonically accepted for one whole month in 1988 before he was retconned out of existence.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In this case, Illiyan Nastase dates back to White Dwarf 97, while Rick Priestley's article was published in White Dwarf 98. Technically, Illiyan Nastase is a: not a Space Marine, and b: was canonically accepted for one whole month in 1988 before he was retconned out of existence.
You might want to try reading that article, try around page 16 and tell me where it says that they have to be human?
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DogOfWar wrote:
EDIT: And it's Mark VI armor.
Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)
Hunterindarkness wrote: No. Your arument was based off bull that hass been shown to be wrong, it was based off false pudo science, and a clear lack of understanding both what women can do, have done, how they function in a military unit and an over all hand waving of "Oh men can do that better" even when shown some things they simply can not.
It was only afteryou kept being proven wrong that your threw up your hands and cried "well its always been that way" which avoids the very fact that the way it has always been is both Arbitrary and complete BS.
LMFAO oh man you are grasping for straws now. Guess what? Yeah Space Marine augmentation is not based on science. Neither is the rest of 40k. I haven't been proven wrong at all to be honest. I am using background from the game to argue my point. All you're doing is being a little whiny kid who can't get his way.
Newsflash for everyone in this thread: Space Marines only being able to be male is a very solid part of the lore and it's continually insisted upon, even if you think that it's unrealistic. Trying to argue against it is like arguing with a brick wall. It won't work. You'll have an easier time arguing that the Alpha Legion worship the Emperor. Cause guess what? 40k isn't rooted in actual science so stop crying about it.
BaronIveagh wrote:While your dripping sarcasm amuses me, I might point out that you offer no proof in current fluff of your own position. Your assertion is 'but everyone knows that...' To which I refute 'Yes, and once everyone knew that the earth was flat.'
Until it was proven that the Earth was round. Not until they forgot they thought it was flat and decided arbitrarily that it was round.
Using male pronouns does not justify your position, as it's a common writing convention. Notice that until 3rd edition, the bulk of D&D rulebooks also used almost exclusively male pronouns.
And almost every book that does this has a disclaimer that male pronouns are used for simplicity's sake and not to indicate maleness. Nowhere in the 5th Edition Codex is a disclaimed like this made. In English convention, if you're not designating gender with a pronoun, you use gender neutral terms like "their", or most grammatically correct, however typing inefficient, you use "his or her/him or her/he or she" in every instance.
Remember where I told you a few posts up that I'm going to be way ahead of you at any step of this game? Keep that in mind. Not only do I obviously know more about 40K, more about the military, more about weapons, and more about warfighting, it is fair to mention that out of the two baccalaureate degrees that I hold, one of them is in English.
Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)
No worries, I had to check 40k wiki to be sure. I'm thinking perhaps some people know a little too much about 40k...
BaronIveagh wrote:Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)
Of course, if you knew your fluff, you'd know that Illiyan Nastase was created in White Dward 97 in 1988, but MkV Heresy Armor didn't exist until it was mentioned in "Space Marine Armour" by Rick Priestley, originally published in White Dwarf 120, in 1990 with the first MkV models being released in early 1991, so it would be impossible for him to have been armored in anything other than Mk6 armor.
BaronIveagh wrote:Oh, yeah, the legs are smooth, aren't they. Ok, you got one on me, I usually go by helmet and torso, and both are missing or covered here. (Not that I haven't seen Mk VI with mk V legs, though, too... damn marines swapping parts over time...)
Of course, if you knew your fluff, you'd know that Illiyan Nastase was created in White Dward 97 in 1988, but MkV Heresy Armor didn't exist until it was mentioned in "Space Marine Armour" by Rick Priestley, originally published in White Dwarf 120, in 1990 with the first MkV models being released in early 1991, so it would be impossible for him to have been armored in anything other than Mk6 armor.
Haha, Veteran Sergeant wins! Flawless victory.
In addition, trying to use Nastase to support the female marine argument is terrible because Marines were not taken in as kids back when he was around, and Marines had not fully developed into what we consider them today as they were still T3 (heros at T4) when he was introduced. Marneus Calgar actually didn't fight at all and hung back at Fort Macragge most of time due to his extensive injuries. In game terms he was a badass though, since he could move 8 inches a turn due to bionic legs. Oh yeah and the Ultramarines were actually a replacement for a chapter that went to Chaos. Funnily enough I think that background is more interesting than what we have now.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Until it was proven that the Earth was round. Not until they forgot they thought it was flat and decided arbitrarily that it was round.
Except that Aristotle proved it was round long before Magellan, by pointing out that constellations rose higher over hte horizon as you sailed in different directions, therefor the Earth would have to be round. So, there was a lot of arbitrarily deciding things between points a and b.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And almost every book that does this has a disclaimer that male pronouns are used for simplicity's sake and not to indicate maleness. Nowhere in the 5th Edition Codex is a disclaimed like this made. In English convention, if you're not designating gender with a pronoun, you use gender neutral terms like "their", or most grammatically correct, however typing inefficient, you use "his or her/him or her/he or she" in every instance.
You're forgetting that convention is relatively new. Pick up one from fifteen years ago. No such disclaimer. And, frankly, let me turn your earlier argument around on you: "Why would they spell it out when it should be apparent'?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Remember where I told you a few posts up that I'm going to be way ahead of you at any step of this game? Keep that in mind. Not only do I obviously know more about 40K, more about the military, more about weapons, and more about warfighting, it is fair to mention that out of the two baccalaureate degrees that I hold, one of them is in English.
Not to mention obviously knowing more about being high on your own bs, a well as being a pirate robot zombie ninja doctor.
BaronIveagh wrote:You might want to try reading that article, try around page 16 and tell me where it says that they have to be human?
Needless insult removed.
Reds8n
However, sadly, the word human is used over and over in the article, starting in the second sentence. But, scarily enough, the word human has also been omitted from the 5th edition codex...
Which, sadly, does mean that this guy is now canonically acceptable...
Nice to see you penning such full and well reasoned counter arguments.
In the 41st millennium women still have smaller (on average) upper bodies and wider hips than men in the 41st millennium - they're often shorter too. The art shows this. And as a direct result of this, you get less optimal muscular leverage and smaller heart/lung capacities. The feminine form is fundamentally less capable of physical performance, in this universe or theirs* - that's just how it is.
(*Really, do NOT get me into an argument about the laws of physics in 40k. I will go anthropic principle on you.)
Respectfully, 40K also has ogryns, guys with extra joints etc. etc. Mankind (er womankind) has had 40K years to evolve on a million different worlds. The thought that some of the worlds haven't evolved Amazon women is incredibly statistically unlikely. Furhter, its not saying the menfolk of that planet are not stronger, just that the women are buff compared to your average 2K male.
1. Note neaderthal females were sufficiently strong to break Arnold Schwarzzie in half. Its in our genes.
2. We're talking genetic mutation and hormone therapy. When you're talking effectively mutating humans into something physically capable of obliterating gorillas one handed, normal rules and standards no longer really apply.
Hardly, since he obviously still hasn't bothered to show me where in Preistly's articale it says that they have ot be human. I have it sitting infront of me and I know it doesn't.
So, i still have not heard when he was retconned.
And he has nothing to do with female space marines, I just brought him up because your sneering ass claimed ot know more about 40k then I do. and so far your miserably failing at the 'Using current canon' rule.
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:You're quickly reaching Melissia levels of obstinate stupidity. I will give you that. However, sadly, the word human is used over and over in the article, starting in the second sentence.
Yeah, but where it does not say it is on page 16 where it lists the qualifications to become a SM.
BaronIveagh wrote:You're forgetting that convention is relatively new. Pick up one from fifteen years ago. No such disclaimer.
You so sure about that? I went and pulled out the oldest book I could easily find. It happened to be Twilight 2000, since it is is a cardboard box and is on top so it doesn't get damaged. Copyright 1984. So, it's only 28 years old. not quite twice 15 years, but hey, good enough. i took a nice high resolution picture for you.
http://tinypic.com/r/b5r34j/5
Hardly, since he obviously still hasn't bothered to show me where in Preistly's articale it says that they have ot be human. I have it sitting infront of me and I know it doesn't.
So, i still have not heard when he was retconned.
And he has nothing to do with female space marines, I just brought him up because your sneering ass claimed ot know more about 40k then I do. and so far your miserably failing at the 'Using current canon' rule.
Oooh, a little touchy are we? Or are you just mad that a Half Eldar is more likely to be a space marine than a woman? Also I have the Rogue Trader Compilation which has the chapter "Legiones Astartes" which states that they need to be male. There are also several references to Marines being formerly humans that have become superhuman as a result of all of the organs n'stuff. Now I don't know if this article came after Ultramarines, but if it did it certainly puts Nastase's fluff in jeopardy.
First, female space marines is *probably* possible in a setting like 40k. Because 40k is the kind of open-ended setting where almost anything is possible and a lot of crazy gak goes on. Just blame your cast of usual suspects; radical inquisitor, renegade chapter, corrupt governor, w/e. But that leads me to me second point:
Just because something is possible doesn't mean we should go there. Especially when it adds nothing to the setting and instead is an open invitation for people to indulge their puerile fantasies. For example: Slaanesh Pleasure Cults. Men, women, cats, dogs, goats, fish and sentient tentacles get together and sex each other to death, while ingesting cocktails of powerful drugs. Unlike female marines, that's actually CANON. Oh wow, its canon! Black Library should write a book about pleasure cults, each chapter focusing on a type of orgy. Hell, pleasure cults should have their own codex and Apocalypse formations, they're canon!! Super heavy can be a gigantic mass of writhing bodies that rolls across the battlefield in an orgiastic wave of destruction. Why not, its possible amirite?!
Well yes, it is. But no, we won't. Not here anyway, if someone really wants to discuss female marines there's always 4chan and whatever fanfic blogs exist out there. I'm sorry but the female space marine discussions I've seen are never about deepening the background or adding something to the setting, instead they seem to be an attempt to legitimize idle fantasies where the protagonist is ravished against his will by a female marine, or he seduces the heart of the cold, unfeeling warrior woman, making her know love for the first time. It makes me throw up in my mouth.
If, against all my preconceived notions, you DO have a legitimate reason for willing female marines into being, I'd be more than happy to listen to your proposition.
Sure, why not. We can have emo-catgirl-vampire marines while we're at it. And those Brony avatars? No longer amusing forum meme. Now 40k canon. But hey, why stop there? Lets toss some gene-seed in an Ogryn! Or hell, a grox! Awesome. We can make the Thundercats chapter. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Cowabunga, for the Emprah!
DrimGark wrote:Sure, why not. We can have emo-catgirl-vampire marines while we're at it. And those Brony avatars? No longer amusing forum meme. Now 40k canon. But hey, why stop there? Lets toss some gene-seed in an Ogryn! Or hell, a grox! Awesome. We can make the Thundercats chapter. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Cowabunga, for the Emprah!
At that point, even the Orks would
Copyright. Even gw couldn't steal my little pony, could they?
Wait, I have it! We'll take the gene seed, and put it in an already developed space marine! Yeah! Then we'll have double-marine. And then do it over and over again.
No wait, screw it.
Lets put the gene seed in the Emprah. Why take half measures! Emprah marines! For the Emprah!
EDIT: And thus, was Draigo and the GK codex spawned.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also I have the Rogue Trader Compilation which has the chapter "Legiones Astartes" which states that they need to be male. There are also several references to Marines being formerly humans that have become superhuman as a result of all of the organs n'stuff.
Now I don't know if this article came after Ultramarines, but if it did it certainly puts Nastase's fluff in jeopardy.
It wasn't until WD 105 that they explicitly stated that a SM had to be human, though it never states pure human, just that they can't be mutants (though robots and squats continued to be made honorary SM for a while). Xenology is the first time that Eldar/Human hybrids actually get the axe.
But then, someone who knows more about 40k then I do would have to have known that, right?
But all this OT macho dick waiving aside: Let's get this thread back on track, shall we?
rabidaskal wrote:
Well yes, it is. But no, we won't. Not here anyway, if someone really wants to discuss female marines there's always 4chan and whatever fanfic blogs exist out there. I'm sorry but the female space marine discussions I've seen are never about deepening the background or adding something to the setting, instead they seem to be an attempt to legitimize idle fantasies where the protagonist is ravished against his will by a female marine, or he seduces the heart of the cold, unfeeling warrior woman, making her know love for the first time. It makes me throw up in my mouth.
If, against all my preconceived notions, you DO have a legitimate reason for willing female marines into being, I'd be more than happy to listen to your proposition.
Well, that was the point was to broaden the back ground and add something to the setting, but the discussion has gotten abit mired by egos and fur. Again, does anyone have any suggestions about how FSM's could exist without breaking canon?
BaronIveagh wrote:You might want to try reading that article, try around page 16 and tell me where it says that they have to be human?
You're quickly reaching Melissia levels of obstinate stupidity. I will give you that. However, sadly, the word human is used over and over in the article, starting in the second sentence. But, scarily enough, the word human has also been omitted from the 5th edition codex...
Which, sadly, does mean that this guy is now canonically acceptable...
Vladsimpaler wrote: Also I have the Rogue Trader Compilation which has the chapter "Legiones Astartes" which states that they need to be male. There are also several references to Marines being formerly humans that have become superhuman as a result of all of the organs n'stuff. Now I don't know if this article came after Ultramarines, but if it did it certainly puts Nastase's fluff in jeopardy.
It wasn't until WD 105 that they explicitly stated that a SM had to be human, though it never states pure human, just that they can't be mutants (though robots and squats continued to be made honorary SM for a while). Xenology is the first time that Eldar/Human hybrids actually get the axe.
But then, someone who knows more about 40k then I do would have to have known that, right?
You obviously have me confused with Veteran Sergeant, I never said I knew more about 40k fluff than you. (I know I know, both of our usenames start with a V )
Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to prove with Nastase. That fluff changes? Yeah I can agree with that. Just don't expect female marines to become a possibility in the near future any more than you can expect the Emperor to become a female.
:edit: Reported you for your OT to Frazzled since you said you were reporting any further OT's
You obviously have me confused with Veteran Sergeant, I never said I knew more about 40k fluff than you. (I know I know, both of our usenames start with a V )
Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to prove with Nastase. That fluff changes? Yeah I can agree with that. Just don't expect female marines to become a possibility in the near future any more than you can expect the Emperor to become a female.
:edit: Reported you for your OT to Frazzled since you said you were reporting any further OT's
The first part was directed at you, the second clearly at him.
Hmm...
SM are granted recruiting worlds by the administratum. What if a chapter was granted a recruiting world that by fluke of local biology, only 1 in 10 births resulted in a male offspring? Men would be too rare in general to be a viable source of recruits at that point. The SM chapter is not going to just sit idly by and go extinct...
You obviously have me confused with Veteran Sergeant, I never said I knew more about 40k fluff than you. (I know I know, both of our usenames start with a V )
Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to prove with Nastase. That fluff changes? Yeah I can agree with that. Just don't expect female marines to become a possibility in the near future any more than you can expect the Emperor to become a female.
:edit: Reported you for your OT to Frazzled since you said you were reporting any further OT's
The first part was directed at you, the second clearly at him.
Hmm...
SM are granted recruiting worlds by the administratum. What if a chapter was granted a recruiting world that by fluke of local biology, only 1 in 10 births resulted in a male offspring? Men would be too rare in general to be a viable source of recruits at that point. The SM chapter is not going to just sit idly by and go extinct...
(BTW: reported yours too.)
Most Space Marine chapters recruit from a system, and would definitely not choose a world where only 1 in 10 births resulted in male offspring. People will accept the impossible, not the improbable. No Chapter would do something so stupid to endanger itself like that, your example is a bit too far fetched.
(Good luck on your abusing the reporting system goals for 2012, I didn't make any OT posts on this page whereas you did in direct violation of your own comment)
Not really. The topic of the thread is to discuss how it might be possible to have female space marines without breaking canon.
Example: A chapter of female marines is founded by order of the high lords so that GK's have plenty of blood around just in case they cannot find any conveniently located battle sisters.
Not really. The topic of the thread is to discuss how it might be possible to have female space marines without breaking canon.
Example: A chapter of female marines is founded by order of the high lords so that GK's have plenty of blood around just in case they cannot find any conveniently located battle sisters.
ANd that's any more on topic how?
ANd IIRC you brought up the eldar guy (though I could be wrong).
That's an espensive waste of soilders.that the imperium couldn't afford, plenty of easier to obtain sacrifices.
Not really. The topic of the thread is to discuss how it might be possible to have female space marines without breaking canon.
Example: A chapter of female marines is founded by order of the high lords so that GK's have plenty of blood around just in case they cannot find any conveniently located battle sisters.
Again, a ludicrous example and you're grasping at straws even though you're probably joking but it's not a very good one. No reason to make a female marine chapter when male marine chapters can be established. It's probably time for this thread to be closed anyway, with you reporting me for absolutely no good reason as all of my posts have had to do with why female marines can't exist.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Most Space Marine chapters recruit from a system, and would definitely not choose a world where only 1 in 10 births resulted in male offspring. People will accept the impossible, not the improbable. No Chapter would do something so stupid to endanger itself like that, your example is a bit too far fetched.
Yes, but while in the past newly founded chapters picked a world, a few of the one's post-Badab war seem to be being assigned them. Whether this is a shift in over all imperial policy or just a local peculiarity is not explained, but since it does, on occasion happen, here's a possible scenario that would be within canon.
Though I would imagine that a chapter thus altered would have some sort of oath that they cannot remove their wargear in sight of a non-chapter member, to conceal their shame, as well as some hefty explaining at geneseed tithe time. Granted, a few other chapters that are mutated seem to have miraculously 'clean' geneseed. I wonder how they do it?
nomsheep wrote:
ANd that's any more on topic how?
Because there's an example of the topic in it, just like this one, though discussing the possible ideas would fall within the topic.
Frazzled wrote:The thought that some of the worlds haven't evolved Amazon women is incredibly statistically unlikely.
The thought that those genetics don't pass on to the male offspring, making them even more physically spectacular, is even more statistically unlikely.
Yes, it's possible to have above-average women who are stronger than the average male. We've said that already. It is not however possible, with the way human anatomy works, to have the average women stronger than the average male.
We're talking genetic mutation and hormone therapy. When you're talking effectively mutating humans into something physically capable of obliterating gorillas one handed, normal rules and standards no longer really apply.
If you turbocharge both a big engine and a small engine, the big engine is still going to give you more power afterwards. (Before someone decides to take that statement too seriously, and decides to object with a thesis on forced induction, I'm generalising for the sake of analogy.)
Sure, they'd still be very strong - but it's a less efficient framework to be working from, so they can't be as strong.
It's not that it couldn't be done.
It's just that doing it would be silly.
It just seems like people are doing it to be different rather than any actual reason...
The Imperium is too stupid to build new technology, and even if they could they wouldn't because part of their stupidity is that they're sexist bigots.
Frazzled wrote:The thought that some of the worlds haven't evolved Amazon women is incredibly statistically unlikely.
The thought that those genetics don't pass on to the male offspring, making them even more physically spectacular, is even more statistically unlikely.
Hmm... No, the above suggested low male birth rate scenario would eventually turn into something like this, with reversed sexual dimorphism, due to natural selection.
Over time women would have to evolve to fill numerous roles previously filled by men.
LoneLictor wrote:Here's why there aren't female Space Marines.
The Imperium is too stupid to build new technology, and even if they could they wouldn't because part of their stupidity is that they're sexist bigots.
Please note that we are staying on topic, which this post is not. Please limit discussion to potential ideas of how it might happen within canon, or the suggested theories of how it might work.
Vladsimpaler wrote:It's probably time for this thread to be closed anyway, with you reporting me for absolutely no good reason as all of my posts have had to do with why female marines can't exist.
Which, is not the topic, if you had bothered to read the first post. I spell out at the beginning of the thread that I acknowledge that there are those that under no circumstances will consider possible the idea of female space marines. The topic is: 'How can it be done without breaking canon?'. Just jumping up and saying 'it CAAAAAAN'T!' is not posting on topic. Replaying to one of the suggestions is, Suggesting your own idea is.
It's easy to say something cannot be done. It's hard to come up with a solution that does it.
Frazzled wrote:The thought that some of the worlds haven't evolved Amazon women is incredibly statistically unlikely.
The thought that those genetics don't pass on to the male offspring, making them even more physically spectacular, is even more statistically unlikely.
.
I agreed in my post. Now that can be written off with handwavim that their male specific chromosome won't take the mutation properly; that the females are all clones and the original world was destroyed; that the power behind them preferred women (SOB link here); that there is also a brother chapter from the same world (the Emperor's Boyz); a virus wiped out nearly all the men making them a precious commodity (a Sliders episode); etc. etc.
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purplefood wrote:It's not that it couldn't be done.
It's just that doing it would be silly.
It just seems like people are doing it to be different rather than any actual reason...
Having marines is silly in the first place. In the words of the immortal bard: All hail Ollanius Pius!
Its not why, its what are some of the backstories could be.
For a really twisted one: A fleet based chapter becomes trapped in the warp, and the entire chapter and it's geneseed are transformed?
Borrowing a bit from Legion of the Damned a bit, I know, but stranger things have happened in fluff.
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Frazzled wrote:
Its not why, its what are some of the backstories could be.
An interesting idea is a feral recruiting world with a psudo-Celtic culture where women going into battle alongside men was common (scared the crap out of the Roman Legions...).
By quick of genetics, only the women of the world are suitable for becoming SM.
BaronIveagh wrote:For a really twisted one: A fleet based chapter becomes trapped in the warp, and the entire chapter and it's geneseed are transformed?
Borrowing a bit from Legion of the Damned a bit, I know, but stranger things have happened in fluff.
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Frazzled wrote:
Its not why, its what are some of the backstories could be.
An interesting idea is a feral recruiting world with a psudo-Celtic culture where women going into battle alongside men was common (scared the crap out of the Roman Legions...).
By quick of genetics, only the women of the world are suitable for becoming SM.
BaronIveagh wrote:No, the above suggested low male birth rate scenario would eventually turn into something like this, with reversed sexual dimorphism, due to natural selection.
Not at all likely, for reasons I've already expounded on at considerable length.
But to put it in simple terms: There are few plausible manners (that I am aware of) by which genetics would improve the physique of only women but not their male offspring. At present, I know of no ethnicity, country or race where the average height of women is greater than that of the equivalent men.
The only way I can think of would be a mutation of the Y chromosome that actually physically stunted male offspring. This could put a demand for better physical performance on the women (having to fight/hunt/etc) but they would still have to retain the essentials of childbearing - so they would still be handicapped on that front (and certainly wouldn't be able to go beyond what a similar demand for physical performance from a male population would create). Their build would also doubtless look pretty alien to us as far as what we would consider to be a woman. So we're still not getting the feminine lady Marines you want.
Also, I doubt that a population with such a major genetic defect would be suitable (or even considered) for Space Marine implantation, even if they had decided to try and make women marines.
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BaronIveagh wrote:By quirk of genetics, only the women of the world are suitable for becoming SM.
What quirk, exactly? There's only one piece of genetics that's exclusive to only one gender, and it's the Y chromosome. And we know that geneseed works just fine with those, thanks.
)
boys in the imperium is going to be running out any time soon. The Imperium has nothing if not large supplies of manpower and it would have to be in truly dire straits to need to funnel resources into trying to make female space marines work, and even then, wouldn't said resources be better funnelled towards creating more tried and tested weapons?
you are honsetly the first person I know of that has done that. 
