The problem with Celestine, is she gets a chance to get back up every turn. So, if combat has infinite rounds to resolve, she wins because she will get back up eventually (If I recall correctly, you roll at the beginning of each of your turns, on a 4+ she gets back up).

She'll take the whole tournament by default >_<

thats not what i meant.

IE:
gameturn 1 - no one drops
gameturn 2 - no one drops
gameturn 3 celstine drops
start of gameturn 4 - celestine tests to come back: fail = she looses, if she passes > next turn and so on. if she ever fails to get back up at the first opurtunity, she is done. (sort of the same as RP.)

i realize thats sort of a "nerf" to her actual rules, and others but this is a DUEL. not a full on battle. plus - having infinite time to get back up sort of makes her (and others with simaler) inclusion a near auto win like you said.

I guess you could put a time limit on any match... that would allow her to use her rules to the fullest without becoming an auto-win.

Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

just treat her as having a special reanimation protocol. she gets her roll whatever that is, at the end of the phase she goes down, or start of turn etc, fail it - shes done. and she looses the fight. pass, and the fight goes on untill she does fail it.

DarthSpader wrote:she follows normal rules. so if she goes down, gets a chance to return, as often as needed. once that fails shes done. the same would apply to any other character with a chance to return to the fight. you dont win untill you win, and a win requires the other guy staying down.

DarthSpader wrote:thats not what i meant.

IE:
gameturn 1 - no one drops
gameturn 2 - no one drops
gameturn 3 celstine drops
start of gameturn 4 - celestine tests to come back: fail = she looses, if she passes > next turn and so on. if she ever fails to get back up at the first opurtunity, she is done. (sort of the same as RP.)

i realize thats sort of a "nerf" to her actual rules, and others but this is a DUEL. not a full on battle. plus - having infinite time to get back up sort of makes her (and others with simaler) inclusion a near auto win like you said.

DarthSpader wrote:just treat her as having a special reanimation protocol. she gets her roll whatever that is, at the end of the phase she goes down, or start of turn etc, fail it - shes done. and she looses the fight. pass, and the fight goes on untill she does fail it.

I have to express my concern over this "change" to St. Celestine's rules. It certainly does nerf her to a level where I don't even think it is worth having this fight. I admit I am biased, but this just arbitrarily alters one of her more important special rules for the character. I did not see any nerf applied to MSS or psychotropic grenades despite the imbalance those things can bring to a fight like this. With your change to St. Celestine's MI that I thoroughly disagree with, I am going to have to say that this is horribly one-sided in the favor of Draigo.


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Amanax wrote:Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

Actually, as this is still being fought with 5th rules, both are going to have to use their invulnerable saves 3++/4++ for Draigo/St. Celestine respectively. St. Celestine does not have EW either.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Amanax wrote:Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

Actually, as this is still being fought with 5th rules, both are going to have to use their invulnerable saves 3++/4++ for Draigo/St. Celestine respectively. St. Celestine does not have EW either.

You're absolutely right. Can't believe I forgot that...

Yeah, I have to agree with Evil Lamp. With the changes to Celestine's ressurection, she doesn't stand a chance. Just give it to Draigo and move on.

how exactly does her rule work? she tests at the start of each turn to come back into the game?

the problems with that in a 1v1 duel i can see are:

if she goes down, how long exactly are we giving her to "get back up?" if she has an infinite number of tries, such as fail, ok try again next turn, fail, ok try again next turn.... it can just get ridiculus. since we dont really have a system in place to handle ties, it has to be done once someone hits the deck. simaler to wrestling, or boxing i guess. character goes, down 10 count....then they are out. if we just stood around and waited all night - boxing matches could last days.

i do not have a witch hunter codex, and our store no longer has them in stock, so i can not get ahold of the exact rule wording. i realize its against dakka rules to post the exact rule, but perhaps a "paraphraze" of the rule in question?

the biggest thing i want to avoid is apotential "infinite match" where the combatants just keep getting up unlimited times, with no chance of failure. hence why, i believe it should be a 1 and done scenario. if she fails the check, she stays down past the 10 count and is considered out. or suffers a technical loss. that said, i also dont want to super nerf anyone either. - willing to discuss this further.

(hooray! discussion time actually pays off here!)

I think it's quite fair to treat her similar to necrons RP. If she fails to get up, the match is called. If she gets up and gets knocked back down she still can pop up but as before, she gets one chance at it. Otherwise this'll be potentially endless.

DarthSpader wrote:how exactly does her rule work? she tests at the start of each turn to come back into the game?

the problems with that in a 1v1 duel i can see are:

if she goes down, how long exactly are we giving her to "get back up?" if she has an infinite number of tries, such as fail, ok try again next turn, fail, ok try again next turn.... it can just get ridiculus. since we dont really have a system in place to handle ties, it has to be done once someone hits the deck. simaler to wrestling, or boxing i guess. character goes, down 10 count....then they are out. if we just stood around and waited all night - boxing matches could last days.

i do not have a witch hunter codex, and our store no longer has them in stock, so i can not get ahold of the exact rule wording. i realize its against dakka rules to post the exact rule, but perhaps a "paraphraze" of the rule in question?

the biggest thing i want to avoid is apotential "infinite match" where the combatants just keep getting up unlimited times, with no chance of failure. hence why, i believe it should be a 1 and done scenario. if she fails the check, she stays down past the 10 count and is considered out. or suffers a technical loss. that said, i also dont want to super nerf anyone either. - willing to discuss this further.

(hooray! discussion time actually pays off here!)

SoB WD Codex wrote:Miraculous Intervention: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of you subsequent turns. If the result is..., place her within...of the counter with D3 wounds restored...Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'...

Parts that are irrelevant or would give unnecessary rules away left out. I agree it is an issue. By the way, C:WH isn't the valid codex for SoB anymore, the WD codex SoB from Aug '11 and Sep '11 replaced it. I've thought of a possible compromise and one that would work within 5th. Limit combat to 7 game turns/14 possible Assault phases for the purposes of determining a winner since it would not be possible for St. Celestine to get up more than 7 times during the course of a normal game.


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King Pariah wrote: I think it's quite fair to treat her similar to necrons RP. If she fails to get up, the match is called. If she gets up and gets knocked back down she still can pop up but as before, she gets one chance at it. Otherwise this'll be potentially endless.

Except Necron's RP/EL specifically only works on a pass/fail basis. St. Celestine's MI is quite different in that she can still get back up after a failure with a successful pass. I agree that it would be stupidly pointless as no character could "lose" with such ability. I have suggested a compromise.

Edit to further clarify: I don't think that St. Celestine should get 7 chances to come back, but rather limit the match to 7 game turns. So if Draigo goes first and "kills" her on game turn 1, she could come back bottom of turn 1 all the way up to bottom of 7. If, however, Draigo kills her turn 7 and she stays down, the Saint is SOL. See if that makes more sense.

the problem with limiting the match to 7 game turns, is while its more realistic to actual games (good) it limits the fight between 2 guys who just keep beating and not hurting each other in a full on slugfest. (wich albeit doesnt happen in normal games anyway...)

but mainly, what happens if she gets knocked down on turn 1? we wait 6 turns for her to come back? what if shes still up at the end of 7? draw? continue? what if we continue and she drops on 8? does she keep testing?

i realize its a bit of a nerf - but i think if she takes a roll and fails thats it. same for sanguinor, and any necrons, or anything else. the contest is about who is deadliest, not who can take the deadliest beating... we want quick, bloody and decisive fights, showcasing the pure offensive power. celestine has some of that, but her ill be back fun is more defensive, and once shes down, she should be down on a failed check.... but im still willing to discuss the matter and listen to reason

It is always nice to see reason in discussions. You bring up good points that I simply don't have good answers for. This is ultimately your thread and "contest". I think you put it best earlier that she would "suffer a technical loss" as I can't think of another way to address this. Perhaps better men than I can.

I don't like the comparison to Necrons, etc. because her rule is fundamentally different than the others and is a big part of her "balance" both internally and externally. Being only T3 and no EW really is balanced with her MI in mind. Almost all other characters with a similar ability either have T4, EW, or better saves, and in some cases all three. This is balanced in that 1. they are harder to knock down in the first place and 2. they don't get to come back after a failure.

With that said, I'm sticking with my original statement that the change to St. Celestine's rule for this gives the fight hands down to Draigo with a "technical loss" for her.

well i'd agree she could get up if there was an army around her... in this case she is the only model on the 1v1 so by default if she gets wiped out and can't get back up it is over as the game would be over by wipe out

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I've thought of a possible compromise and one that would work within 5th. Limit combat to 7 game turns/14 possible Assault phases for the purposes of determining a winner since it would not be possible for St. Celestine to get up more than 7 times during the course of a normal game.

I think that this, in principle, is the most sensible way to deal with this issue.
And if she still stands at the end of the 7th turn, she simply loses the ability to roll for resurrection and stays down if she gets slain (again).

so turns 1-7 she tests as normal, after that shes one and done.... that could work i suppose.

that said, its also a precedent for other characters with simaler rules that allow getting up and so forth. i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

ah well. a 7 turn limit would make the match a touch more interesting.

with that in mind - i do believe she cant move or charge when she comes back, so that would draigo simply more opurtunities to shoot and charge her.


also, with that in mind: polls now opened on this one.

DarthSpader wrote:so turns 1-7 she tests as normal, after that shes one and done.... that could work i suppose.

that said, its also a precedent for other characters with simaler rules that allow getting up and so forth. i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

ah well. a 7 turn limit would make the match a touch more interesting.

with that in mind - i do believe she cant move or charge when she comes back, so that would draigo simply more opurtunities to shoot and charge her.


also, with that in mind: polls now opened on this one.

SoB WD Codex wrote:Miraculous Intervention: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of you subsequent turns. If the result is..., place her within...of the counter with D3 wounds restored...Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'...

She can act as normal when she resurrects so she can assault etcetera on that turn FYI.

DarthSpader wrote:i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

A valid point, though there are many possible explanations. When she's already dead, you can't "kill her more". The opponent might simply turn away and look for other enemies to slay or leave the field of battle, unknowing that his foe isn't yet done for (maybe). Which also explains how he might get surprised (assaulted) by her.
Actually, I think that's a fairly common cliché in various movies - the antagonist turning around to leave as the hero struggles to get back up and confront his arch nemesis once more, etc. Usually accompanied by some cliché phrase like "not ... so fast" or "where do you think you're going?" or "did you really think you won already?"

Just a suggestion, though.

Personally, I won't vote as I'm biased in that my personal preference clashes with my cynism regarding Draigo, but I'll check the results.

I think the best way for this to go is a time limit. If she hasn't killed Draigo by the end but she is still kicking it's Draigo's win. If he is down Celestine's wins. If she is down and the time runs out its Draigo's win. Simply put she has to win by KO. And he has to win by survival.

i like the idea of the 7 round thing. if shes down and out on or past 7th round, shes SOL. if she manages to drop draigo during that time, or at any point while shes up, then awsome and she gets the win.,.. as in order to win we have to one guy go down and STAY down.

question i suppose.... couldnt draigo just "double tap" her? she goes down.... he unloads his storm bolter at her face. - or takes her back to his little cave in the warp somewhere to um... discuss the many ways they can serve the emprah by braiding each others hair...

im opening a second thread to pick our next contest. it will start off with a nomination style (like how we determined our SC combatants

followed by a single vote off for the next contest. this will remain as the main contest thread, and will also be the one that "runs" the next version, but ill put whats actually fighting to the popular vote of the masses.

Draigo wins his match.

next up Calgar vrs Logan Grimnar.

no Drazhar?

he wasent nominated by anyone

DarthSpader wrote:Draigo wins his match.

next up Calgar vrs Logan Grimnar.

That's another tough one. By 5th edition rules though, I would say logan has this. If I remembering their wargear correctly, Logan will win out by initiative, as they both ignore each others armour, and both have the same invuln saves. Calgar does have weight of attacks in his favor, but I don't think it's enough to offset Logan swinging at his normal initiative.

what about EW and such? if grimnar strikes first, calgar could just default to his fists and ID logan (providing he survives logans assault) calgar dosent really have to use his sword here..could go powerfists. also how strong is logan? is he default marine str of 4 or does he have a buff? im assuming both are T4 as well.

I believe Logan is standard S4 T4, but he wields that frost axe which gives him +1 strength, and he can two hand it as a power fist.

I also though Logan had the saga that made him eternal warrior. Am I remembering incorrectly? It has been awhile since I've gone up against either.

polls opened for the final battle of round 1.

both are EW, l

ogan with ws 6 3 wounds and 5 attacks by 5th rules no need for powerfist mode better to use power weapon but can coutn as power fist or attack at I5 4+ inv save toughness 4 but can be str 5 at i 5 or str 8 at i 1 he may also take preferred enemy and once er battle gain +1 attack

calgar ws 6 4 attacksbase but 2 fists so 5 attacks 4 wounds 4+ inv save titanic might is basically preferred enemy he also has a power sword singular so may be str 4 with 4 attacks

calgar smartly chooses paired power fists.as he doean't want to wound on 4's

both hit on 4's

not factoring in either charging.

logan attacks
rouns 1
6 attacks turn 1 using his power 3 hit with rerolls 4.5 hits
if using sword wounding on 3's 3 wounds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds
if fist wound on 2's 3.75 wounds 4+ inv 1.85 wounds

subsiquent rounds
5 attacks with rerolls 3.75 hits
if sword 2.5 wounds 4+ inv 1.25 wounds
if fist 3.125 wouunds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds

calgar
5 attacks with rerolls 3.75 wounds due to rerolls
fists 3.125 wounds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds per turn

its close but i think calgar takes it with one wound left. the charge makes little difference

Except if I recall correctly, Calgar only re-rolls wounds, doesn't he? If so, then that would tip it back into Logan's favor. Someone care to check?

Yeah, only wounds.

What about ranged attacks? Dosent calgar have some special storm bolter? What about Logan?

Calgar can also orbital strike Logan, can he do the same?

And at range, if Calgar let Logan come to him, he might get a bolter wound in. Combine all of this with an extra wound, and its only the UM haters that can vote for Logan

G00fySmiley wrote:

both hit on 4's

Wrong, Logan has the Wolf tooth necklace which allows him to always hit on a roll of 3+ while Calgar hits on 4+

Logan also has a 4+ invulnerable save while Calgar has the average termi invul save of 5+

plug that in and I do believe when it comes down to close combat, the fates are on the side of Logan

Calgar has an assault 2 ap2 gun with a 24" range. Kite for as long as possible, shooting the whole time... Logan has to just eat the wounds bringing the inevitable CC much farther to mr blues favor.

so, calgar has the edge in range, if he can keep the fight at a distance long enough, he may be able to edege it out. if the reverse is true, logan should win in a pure melee fight.

sounds like a nice tight match. however - the voting right now has grimnar by a large margin. maybe itll tighten up, but less then a day left for votes...

King Pariah wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

both hit on 4's

Wrong, Logan has the Wolf tooth necklace which allows him to always hit on a roll of 3+ while Calgar hits on 4+

Logan also has a 4+ invulnerable save while Calgar has the average termi invul save of 5+

plug that in and I do believe when it comes down to close combat, the fates are on the side of Logan

Actually, Calgar does have a 4+ invuln, from his Iron Halo. All Captains and Chapter Masters have that (or something better).
In terms of who is better, I vote Logan, because he's not a Smurf.

Looks like Calgar bites the dust in this one. Logans got his work cut out for him this round however.

in any case round 2 starts now. - Ghazskull vrs Vect... this should be a good un!

Wholly crap batman, these two are a fight against the clock...

As I see it, thanks to prophet of the whaaag! we know ghaz is going to get the charge off against Vect, and then Ghaz will share a 2+ invuln save for a full game turn of combat. Statistically speaking, during that game turn, Vect will fail one of his saves (And as Vect isn't eternal, it will only take one hit). With Ghaz having his 2+ invuln save during that time, I don't think vect can burn through all four wounds in time.

However, if for whatever reason Vect survives the rounds of "Prophet of the Whaaag!" then I think it's Vect's match. Like I said, race against the clock....

all vect has to do, is get the charge himself, and i think ghaz is done. with vect being fleet, that shouldnt be a problem per se, if vect is smart in his movment. if ghaz charges, vect still has ok odds to inflict some damage but that invun makes it harder... and of course if vect just fails a single save, hes done. so vect would almost HAVE to get the charge and suceed in the alpha strike.

DarthSpader wrote:all vect has to do, is get the charge himself, and i think ghaz is done. with vect being fleet, that shouldnt be a problem per se, if vect is smart in his movment. if ghaz charges, vect still has ok odds to inflict some damage but that invun makes it harder... and of course if vect just fails a single save, hes done. so vect would almost HAVE to get the charge and suceed in the alpha strike.

He would have to gain that alpha strike to even have a chance. Because once the Waaagh begins, Vect's chances are next to 0. And fleet may be a factor, but Ghaz has a pretty big gun that, if I recall, is a 24" range as well. So if they just spend the whole match dancing around one another like a bunch of elves waiting for the other get close enough to reliably fleet in (Remember, Ghaz's prophet of the waaagh gives him an automatic 6" run for fleet) then Ghaz will eventually knock that shield off. One on one, I don't think Vect has this one. Ghaz is too much of a power house in close combat, and Vect doesn't have the support to play keep away with the big guy.

sorry - that example kind of redundant. anyway, was talking with a bud, and we decided to run 10 matches of vect v ghaz, with each one getting 5 with the charge. the results are interesting. in the 5 that ghaz charged, he won 3 times. the 2 that vect won, took him 3 and 4 rounds respectivly. however, in the 5 that vect charged, vect won all 5. getting the "alpha strike" kill twice. to take 7 of 10 fights.

the main factor: vects rerolls on his attack dice, from prefered enemy, and hitting and wounding on 3s was a huge deal. plus, when ghaz had a 5++ he failed quite often and just got whittled down. the full results are below. another factor to consider, (wich we didnt, is ghaz is in mega armor. meaning he moves per DT rolls... that can and will slow him down, allowing vect more chances to charge)

Fight 1-5 ghaz charge 6-10 vect charge
(ghaz always strikes last, has 7 atk on charge, 5 normal. Vect has 6 atk on charge, 5 normal)
(ghaz always hits on 4+ wounds on 2+, vect hits on 3+ and wounds on 3+)
(ghaz has 2++ on charge, 5++ otherwise. Vect always has 2++ but 1 fail = dead due to ID)
(vect has pref enemy: reroll missed atk. Numbers after *** reroll results)

fight ONE: ghaz win- round 2
R1: vect attack: 6,5,3,2,2 ***2.2 = 3hit, 5.4,2 = 2 wounds. Ghaz saves – 4,4 = 0 taken
Ghaz attack: 6,5,5,5,4,3,3 = 5hit, 4,3,2,2,1 = 4 wounds, vect saves = 6,6,4,2, = 0 taken
R2: vect attack: 6,5,2,1,1 ** 6,3,3 = 5 hit, 6,3,3,2,1 = 3 wounds, ghaz saves = 6,1,1 = 2 taken
ghaz attack 6,6,4,3,2 = 3hit, 6,4,4 = 3 wounds vect saves = 5,1,1 = VECT DEAD

Fight TWO Ghaz win – round 1
R1:vect atk 5,4,2,1,1 **6,4,3 = 5hit, 6,3,3,3,1 = 4 wounds ghaz saves 6,6,4,3, = 0 taken
ghaz atk 6,6,5,4,3,1,1, = 4hit, 5,4,4,2 = 4 wounds vect saves6,3,1,1 = VECT DEAD

Fight THREE Vect win – round 4
R1: vect atk 5,2,2,1,1 **5,1,1,1 = 2hit 2,1 = 0 wound no saves needed
ghaz atk 5,4,3,3,2,2,2, =2hit 5,3 = 2 wounds vect saves 5,5, = 0 taken
R2: vect atk 6,3,3,2,2 **3,1 = 4hit, 5,3,1,1 =2 wounds, ghaz saves 6,3 = 1 taken
Ghaz atk 6,6,5,3,1 =3hit, 6,6,2 =3wounds vect saves 6,2,2 = 0 taken
R3 vect atk 6,4,3,1,1 **6,1 = 4 hit, 5,4,4,2 =3wounds ghaz saves 6,3,2 = 2 taken
ghaz atk 4,4,4,2,2=3 hit, 6,3,3 = 3 wound, vect saves 6,4,2, = 0 taken
R4: vect atk 6,6,5,3,1,**4 = 5hits, 6,3,2,2,1, = 2 wounds ghaz saves 6,3, =1 GHAZ DEAD

Fight FOUR Vect win – round 3
R1 vect atk 6.6.5.5.1.**6 =5hit, 6,5,5,3,1 =4 wound ghaz saves 6,5,4,3 = 0 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,5,4,4,2 = 6hit, 6,6,5,5,4,1, = 5 wound, vect saves 6,3,3,2,2 = 0 taken
R2: vect atk 5,4,4,4,2**1 =4hit, 6,5,2,2, = 2 wound, ghaz saves 5,3, = 1 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,4,2 = 4hit, 6,5,4,2 = 4 wound, vect saves 6,6,6,4 = 0 taken
R3 vect atk 5,5,4,3,3 =5 hit, 6,6,3,3,2 =4wound, ghaz saves 5,3,3,3 = 3 taken, GHAZ DEAD

Fight FIVE Ghaz win round 1
R1 vect atk 6,6,4,3,2,**4 = 5hit, 5,3,2,2,1 = 2 wounds, ghaz saves 2,1 = 1 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,4,3,1,1 = 4hit, 6,4,3,1, = 3 wound, vect saves 5,1,1, = 2 taken, VECT DEAD

Fight SIX Vect win round 2
R1 vect atk 5,5,4,4,2,1,**5,4 =6hit, 6,6,5,4,4,2 = 5 wound, ghaz saves 6,6,5,2,1 = 2 taken
ghaz atk 3,3,2,1,1, 0 hit, no wound rolls.
R2 vect atk5,5,2,2,1 **6,5,2 = 4hit, 6,5,5,5, = 4 wound, ghaz saves 5,5,3,1, = 2 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight SEVEN Vect win round 2
R1 vect atk 6,4,3,2,2,1 **3,1,1 = 4hit, 6,3,2,1 = 2 wound, ghaz saves 2,2, = 2 taken
ghaz atk 5,4,3,2,1 = 2 hit, 2,1 = 1 wound vect saves 3 = 0 taken
R2 vect atk 6,4,3,1,1,**6,3 = 5 hit, 4,4,4,3,3 = 5 wound, ghaz saves 5,5,3,3,3 = 3 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight EIGHT Vect win round 1 alpha strike!!
R1 vect atk 6,6,5,3,3,3, = 6hit, 6,6,4,3,3, =5wounds, ghaz saves 2,2,1,1,1, = 5 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight NINE Vect wins, round 2
R1 vect atk 6,5,4,3,2,1 **6,1, = 5 hits, 6.4.4.2.1. = 3 wounds, ghaz saves 6.5.2. = 1 taken
ghaz atk 5,4,4,3,3, = 3hit, 5,4,3, vect saves 6,5,2, = 0 taken
R2 vect atk 5,5,4,4,4, = 5 hit, 4,4,3,3,3, = 5 wounds, ghaz saves 5,3,2,1,1, = 4 taken, GHAZ DEAD

Fight TEN Vect win round 1 alpha strike!!
R1 vect atk 6,6,6,5,3,1, **5 = 6hit, 6,5,5,3,2,1 = 4wounds, ghaz saves 4,4,2,2, = 4 taken, GHAZ DEAD

While interesting, I am curious if someone much more dedicated than me could run the actual math hammer on the fight. By the simulation, Vect has it. But, to me all I see is a string of luck. In my mind, going four rounds, taking a total of 7-12 saves between each of those rounds of combat... One of those should have failed. Though we've all seen the string of no 1s.

Another thing to take into account, which wasn't brought up in this sim, was can't prophet of the Waagh be used when in combat already? Or does he have to be disengaged to use it? If he can use it while engaged (And survives the first round of combat) than it might even things up slightly.


As of that sim though, it would indeed appear that Vect is the deadliest character of the two.

Amanax wrote:While interesting, I am curious if someone much more dedicated than me could run the actual math hammer on the fight. By the simulation, Vect has it. But, to me all I see is a string of luck. In my mind, going four rounds, taking a total of 7-12 saves between each of those rounds of combat... One of those should have failed. Though we've all seen the string of no 1s.

Another thing to take into account, which wasn't brought up in this sim, was can't prophet of the Waagh be used when in combat already? Or does he have to be disengaged to use it? If he can use it while engaged (And survives the first round of combat) than it might even things up slightly.


As of that sim though, it would indeed appear that Vect is the deadliest character of the two.

To get the chances of either winning would be pretty difficult...
Still, I'll do what I can Each chance is given to 4 DP next to the number of unsaved wounds it represents.
Vect with no charges:
0 = 0.0810
1 = 0.2645
2 = 0.3455
3 = 0.2256
4 = 0.0737
5 = 0.0096
Vect when he charged:
0 = 0.0490
1 = 0.1920
2 = 0.3135
3 = 0.2730
4 = 0.1337
5 = 0.0349
6 = 0.0038
Vect when Ghaz charged:
0 = 0.3328
1 = 0.4096
2 = 0.2016
3 = 0.0496
4 = 0.0061
5 = 0.0003

Ghaz when he charged:
0 = 0.9067
1+ = 0.0933
When he didn't charge:
0 = 0.9325
1+ = 0.0675

As you can see, that re-roll to hit and 2++ does a lot to help. However, Ghaz' wounds must also be factored in, although it looks from here that Vect has an advantage.

im pretty sure prophet of the wagghh, is something like " ghaz and his army count as rolling a 6" run, and when ghaz charges his armor saves becomes his invun save" or something simaler.

therefore he would have to wagghh and charge to get his 2++

the sim i posted factored in a ghaz wagghh charge, with his 2++ first turn. before i edited and changed it out, i did a little theroy bashing, and 'kind' of tried to show that on a 24x24" table, ghaz would essentially have to hang right at his board edge, and not advance at all untill after the 2nd turn, otherwise vect charges him. but even then, when ghaz charges he still only hits 50% of his attacks, 4-5 saves a round for vect is not really hard... where as vect really just has to survive the 1st round, then its hitting ghaz with attacks that reroll hits that hit on 3+, and wound on 3+, and require a 5++.... not likley. now, in 6th..... ghaz cleans up. (simply because i believe vect would default to an AP3 weapon)

but really, even with ghaz winng 3 of 5 on his charge...7 of 10 wins for vect is pretty significant, mind that was only 10 very quick matches.

That doesn't sound right, in regards to the Waaagh rule, but I could be completely wrong. I'll have to check when I get home from work. As it could make a large difference to if he could use it on the other persons turn, and if it would last two rounds of combat or just one on which he charges as you suggested.

~ Edited now that I'm home~

"Waaagh!" rules states that it can be activated during any of your shooting phases, except the first (No mention of restrictions such as being in close combat)

Ghaz's Prophet of the Waaagh! rule states "Ghazghkull's Waaaagh! can be summoned at any time, but only once per game, and not on the first turn. It replaces the army's usual Waaaagh! - This one is better. Ghazghkull's Waaaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable"


So, with this information, no, it doesn't matter who gets the charge so long as it isn't on the first turn. Ghaz could even activate it on Vect's assault phase if Vect declares that assault. A Also, yes, it would give him two full rounds of a 2+ Invuln save, just like vect. I say, with this information, as only one single hit from Ghazzy will kill vect, this fight is Ghaz's fight.

great discussion so far. polls opened...this should be a good one.

Ghazzy clearly wins this one. Vect won't be able to do enough wounds, to get through his WAAAGH! Save, before Ghazzy deals a single unsaved wound to Vect.

Sasori wrote:Ghazzy clearly wins this one. Vect won't be able to do enough wounds, to get through his WAAAGH! Save, before Ghazzy deals a single unsaved wound to Vect.

Agreed. That one failure of a 2+ Kills vect, whereas Vect has to slog through 4 wounds, and not to mention for 1 FULL turn (i.e., vect and Ghazzy's turn) Having to get past a 2++

Although Vect has magic orbs from shooting, IIRC they are AP 3, so Ghazzy's armour can easily take 1 hit per turn. In comparison, Ghazzy has a 36" range S5 AP5 Assault 3 Weapon, which can easily take off the Shadow field after several rounds..

ghaz hits on a 5+ tho...the odds of him hitting a ranged attack are pretty minimal. also keep in mind in CC ghaz hits on 4+ vrs vect hitting on 3+ and rerolling. not saying its the game... but.

personally i like both characters. they are both army favs, and ive used both on multiple occasions. but yea... that single unlucky dice ruins vects day for sure.

what army is vect in i'm trying to do the math but i can't find him >_<

Dark Eldar.

I side with Ghazghkull Thraka. No doubt Vect will land more hits, but in the two rounds where Ghazghkull has his 2++ there's a very decent chance Vect fails the one roll he needs to in order to get splatted. And while Ghaz' shooting isn't spectacular, it might just be enough to get rid of Vect's invulnerable save, meaning Vect will be royally hosed come close combat. All in all the odds favor Thraka.

dark eldar.. one of the 3 codexes i don't own >_<

well i doubt anything without eternal warrior and i am assumign below toughness 5 as people are saying he can be insta gibbed ccan take ghaz i'd need some stats and rules to do the math though

Is there no model for Vect, I'm trying to find him on GW but can't see him anywhere?

nope. no model. the only DE special characters out is lelith, urien, a generic haemy, archon and succubus.

but for some reason necrons got ALL their SC models...

DarthSpader wrote:nope. no model. the only DE special characters out is lelith, urien, a generic haemy, archon and succubus.

but for some reason necrons got ALL their SC models...

Hey now... you have Drazar too (Even if it is an ancient sculpt...)

was out catching batman trilogy in big screen (all 3 movies back to back to back - the new one is PURE WIN btw... ) so a little late closing the polls. in any case, Ghazzy takes this one with 68%.

Who are next up on the roster..?

from page 1:

Ghaz wins the first match of round 2, to advance to the semi finals
next up, we have the swarmlord vrs Kharn

discussion starts now, and polls open sunday noon EST, closing on tuesday.

(also, if you havent yet, check out he other page and submit nomination for the next "version" of the contest. located here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/461435.page#4553469 )

sorry about the fail "reply" to update next match, for future notice, all updates, next matches, and winners are posted and edited on the first post, page 1.

Swarmlord, hands down.

Sasori wrote:Swarmlord, hands down.

This.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:Swarmlord, hands down.

This.

Thirded...

I hate to say it, but Kharn doesn't even stand a chance in this match up. Even on the charge, they both swing at the same time, and Kharn, will on average will likely only deal one to two wounds to the Swarmlord. The Swarmlord on the other hand has what? 4 attacks standing? So without the charge.. three will hit, two to three will wound, kharn will MAYBE save one, but be forced to re-roll it, and then fall prey to the instant death effect of Swarmlord. Match doesn't even last a single round.

Swarmlord takes this in the first round of combat, easy, even without having to worry about his psychic powers.

voting has been opened.

swarmlord wins.

next up, Abbadon vrs Sanguinor. - discussion is now, voting: starts friday.

also, the voting to nominate our next version of the contest is up, located http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/461435.page#4553469

If we're still using 5th ed rules then its the Sanguinor. 5 base attacks, Re-rolling all failed hits, re-rolling all failed wounds and no armour saves for Abbadon, only invulnerable. Also The Sanguinor has his own 3++ invulnerable save.

yea this version is still using 5th

While the Sanguinor is truly a beast, I'm not so sure he has this one.

Both hit on 4s (Sanguinor re-rolls), Sanguinor wounds on 4s, while Abaddon wounds on a 2 (Both with re-rolls). Sanguinor has a 3++ vs Abaddons 4++, however Sanguinor has 5 base attacks where Abaddon has 6 minimum (Assuming he doesn't get the 1/6 chance of whacking himself in the face) and a max of 11 on the charge. Sanguinor has 3 wounds vs Abaddon's 4, Saguinor Initiative 6 (though furious charge) vs Abaddon's 6.

In short, the two are a close match up for the most part. However, the shear weight of attacks Abaddon can dish out per turn is what I think will tip things in his favor, and will at worst, cause a draw unless somehow Sanguinor kills Abaddon on the turn he charges (As he would go first thanks to furious charge) but that is unlikely, as he would only have 6 attacks on the charge, and only 4 of them would likely stick, and then two get negated from the invulnerable save. So, what wins out? Between 6-10 S8 attacks a turn, or Sanguinor's 3++ invulnerable save and re-rolls?

Amanax wrote:While the Sanguinor is truly a beast, I'm not so sure he has this one.
Both hit on 4s (Sanguinor re-rolls), Sanguinor wounds on 4s, while Abaddon wounds on a 2 (Both with re-rolls).

I didn't realise that Abbadon was T5, I suppose that would make a slight difference. However The Sanguinor is hitting on 3s is he not? Sanguinor is WS8 whereas Abbadon is WS7 I believe. With Furious charge The SAnguinor is also wounding on 3s re-rolling fails, which he is most likely to get since he has a jump pack.

Sanguinor has a 3++ vs Abaddons 4++, however Sanguinor has 5 base attacks where Abaddon has 6 minimum (Assuming he doesn't get the 1/6 chance of whacking himself in the face) and a max of 11 on the charge. Sanguinor has 3 wounds vs Abaddon's 4, Saguinor Initiative 6 (though furious charge) vs Abaddon's 6.

The Sanguinor I'm pretty sure is Init 7 after furious charge. He is Init 6 normally.

In short, the two are a close match up for the most part. However, the shear weight of attacks Abaddon can dish out per turn is what I think will tip things in his favor, and will at worst, cause a draw unless somehow Sanguinor kills Abaddon on the turn he charges (As he would go first thanks to furious charge) but that is unlikely, as he would only have 6 attacks on the charge, and only 4 of them would likely stick, and then two get negated from the invulnerable save. So, what wins out? Between 6-10 S8 attacks a turn, or Sanguinor's 3++ invulnerable save and re-rolls?

I don't know. I still tip The Sanguinor. Especially if he gets the charge off.

On the charge

6 Attacks -> 3s to hit (re-rolling) -> 5.33 hits -> 3s to wound (re-rolling) -> 4.73 wounds -> 2.36 Failed Invulnerable Saves.

Without the Charge

5 Attacks -> 3s to hit (re-rolling) -> 4.44 hits -> 4s to wound (re-rolling) -> 3.11 wounds -> 1.55 Failed Invulnerable Saves


Now if we consider Abadon attacking back with an average of 4 base attacks + 3.5 attack for his daemon weapon.

7.5 Attacks -> 4s to hit -> 3.75 hits -> 2s to wound (re-rolling) -> 3.65 wounds -> 1.21 Failed Invulnerable Saves


Abbadon causes less wound than The Sanguinor even when the Sanguinor does not charge. Add on that The Sanguinor will usually get the charge due to his jump pack and also the very slight chance that Abbadon could whack himself his daemon weapon then I think The Sanguinor should have it.

Also fluff wise The Sanguinor kills The Greater Daemon Ka'Bandha by stabbing his sword into him and then carrying him into the air using his jump pack and then lets him crash to the ground to his death (His wings were damaged so he couldn't fly).

Im definitely backing the sanguinor.
(also, is his avenging angel rule in use?)

blood guard26 wrote:Im definitely backing the sanguinor.
(also, is his avenging angel rule in use?)

I think so. All rules are in play if I remember correctly.

yup. all rules in play.

I've actually played out this battle on the board in my time, and Sanguinor owned big time, so its sanguinor all the way for me. Don't forget sanguinor is strength 6 on the charge.

sanguinar

Sanguinor the beast.

voting opened. (on time! hooray for lack of a life friday morning!)

Sanguinor taking this one. Where are all the abbadon supporters?

DarthSpader wrote:Sanguinor taking this one. Where are all the abbadon supporters?

Sad thing is, most people don't support him, so when given a close match up, he loses

sanguinor takes this one, kicking Abbadon out in the second round. next, we have Draigo vrs Logan.

discussion starts now, voting will open wed.


also, another shameless plug for the thread to determine the next campaign. check it out and fire a vote in.

Draigo I feel wins this one. Just looking at the statline and wargear it seems to be in Draigo's favor. His statline is all in all better, he has a better invulnerable save (3++ vs. 4++), he has a force sword...

Now if this were played by 6th Ed rules, I'd say Logan would have this one as Draigo would have a hell of a time getting past Logan's 2+.

King Pariah wrote:Draigo I feel wins this one. Just looking at the statline and wargear it seems to be in Draigo's favor. His statline is all in all better, he has a better invulnerable save (3++ vs. 4++), he has a force sword...

Now if this were played by 6th Ed rules, I'd say Logan would have this one as Draigo would have a hell of a time getting past Logan's 2+.

Mirror's my feelings on the matter.

Polls opened.

Looks like these matches lately have been pretty one sided.

agreed. all the round 2 matchups were decided by 64% or more. pretty solid arse kickings. hopefully things get a touch closer in the next round. with 4 powerhouses....it should be.

next round we get ghaz vrs swarmlord, and sanguinor vrs draigo. that should lead us up to a nice SM vrs xenos final! yay for climatic final showdowns!

the other thread kind of....died... but we did get a decision on the next theme. it will be the "Dead-est" unit. or rather, the worst unit possible that just generally fails across the board. unit will be 200pts or less, with minimum 150pts. more info to follow on the actual format, check page 1 for info as we go along. in the meantime, submit your nominations for the "dead-est unit" via PM or as a reply to this thread.

hmmm... no comments on this one?

personally....i think swarmlord takes this hes got higher init, and can force rerolls on the 1 round of invuns ghax has, and hes got more attacks.

Yea, I throw my lot in with the Swarmlord. The turn Ghaz gets his Waagh! the Swarmlord can wait it out with his psychic powers making Ghaz only hit on 5's.

ok partially going to come down to the player. i am going to assume both are good at judging distances but the ork player should either know he can charge ie be within 13 inches before trying to charge or be moving back so the swarmlord can't get off his power since they are all 12 inches or 2 D6 and psychic shooting so not going to matte in close combat.

as far as shooting ghaz has a big shoota, 3 str 5 ap 5 shots ... 1 hit, , .5 wound, .16 wound.. basically its doing nothing unless really lucky

basically played right all that matters is the assault and the math on this one isn't so hard math hammer wise

as said above given equal skill here ghaz will have the charge, eh has a longer threat range and should know about the bad juju 12 inch psychic range and can safely try to put .16 wounds on the swarmlord if he stay away so i'm math hammering it out with that assumption

ghaz waaagh plus charge

round 1

swarmlord goes first 4 attacks hitting on 3's is 2.6 hits wounding on 3's is 1.73 wounds saves on a 2++ w/ reroll successes .576 wounds

ghaz 7 attacks hitting on 4's 3.5hits, wounding on 2's 2.92 wounds, 4+ inv 1.46 wounds

round 2

swarmlord repeats above .576 wounds

ghaz down to 5 attacks , 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds 4+ inv means 1.04 wounds

end of round one ghaz takes 1.15 wounds while swarmlord takes 2.5 wounds

2nd assault turn rounds 1

swarmlord repeat above to 1.73 wounds but save changes to 5++ so 1.47 wounds

ghaz repeat above 1.04 wounds ignoring instant death due to eternal warrior

at this point swarmlord down to 1.5 wounds left, ghaz at 2.8 lefrt

2nd assault turn bottom of 2

swarmlord at .46 wounds left, 1.3 left on ghaz

this is where it gets to close to call for me math hammer wise because the next turn ghaz dies before striking, but with .46 wounds left there is a slightly greater than 50% chance ghz wins at the end of the second round

realistically speaking it is a hair in favor of ghaz, but really its a coin toss

voting opened. polls close weds.

With the mathhammer on that, is that taking into account Swarmlords ability to force the re-rolls on Ghaz's invunerable saves?

Also, can Swarmlord use his psychic powers while locked in combat?

Another thing, can't swarmlord designate any friendly unit nearby and give them special rules (Furious charge, preferred enemy, and one other I don't remember). If he does, and can grant those to himself, Preferred enemy would give him yet another boost.

Assuming of course you hadn't factored these in already G00fy

swarmlord just barley squeaks past with 54% win. next up, draigo and sanguinor.

also, still needing nominations for the "dead-est unit" 150-200pt unit from any forceorg, check p1 OP for more details on this one.

If Sanguinor can beat out Abaddon, than he beats out Draigo, as draigo trades out the number of attacks abaddon had for hit 3+ invunerable save. So I say Sanguinor takes this one.

Sanguinor. Rerolling all failed hits and wounds really puts a dent into someone, especially when you're ignoring armour, rolling 3's to hit (I think), and 3's to wound.
Abaddon can't stand up to too many rounds of that.

Gutsnagga wrote:Sanguinor. Rerolling all failed hits and wounds really puts a dent into someone, especially when you're ignoring armour, rolling 3's to hit (I think), and 3's to wound.
Abaddon can't stand up to too many rounds of that.

You mean Draigo.

I mentioned Abaddon because the Sanguinor already beat him out, and I tend to consider Abaddon and Draigo on a fairly even playing field. So if he can beat one, he beats the other.

Sanguinor is S5 right? That means he's rolling 4's to wound. (Draigo is T5, go figure)

But that doesn't change the end result much anyway (Die Draigo, Die!)

Amanax wrote:

Gutsnagga wrote:Sanguinor. Rerolling all failed hits and wounds really puts a dent into someone, especially when you're ignoring armour, rolling 3's to hit (I think), and 3's to wound.
Abaddon can't stand up to too many rounds of that.

You mean Draigo.

I mentioned Abaddon because the Sanguinor already beat him out, and I tend to consider Abaddon and Draigo on a fairly even playing field. So if he can beat one, he beats the other.

Sorry misread the post. But still, Draigo...

voting opened. - closes monday.

So the sanguinor takes down Draigo, to make it to the finals vrs the swarmlord. heres a look at how both managed to get this far.

Swarmlord voted in, and got seeded 3rd overall, and took second spot behind Ghazskull in pool A. he then beat down lysander with a 77% win. he then feasted on Kharn taking 82% of the votes. Ghazskull in the semi finals prooved a bit tougher, but he managed to take him down with a 54% victory.

Sanguinor however was kind of a long shot. he seeded in at the 14th spot (of 16) making it into the contest by only 3 votes. he ended up as the 7th seed in pool B ahead of only grimaldus, he took out mephiston in a squeaker in the first round with 57%, then kicked the pool B top seed abbadons butt with a 81% win. (Abbadon had won his first match vrs grimaldus with 87%) - talk about a reversal! finally sanguinor managed a victory against another top seed in draigo. (number 3 in pool B) - so the 7th seed defeats the top 3 seeds in his pool to make it to the finals.

can Sanguinor do it again? its 7th seed vrs 2nd seed and 14th vrs 3rd overall for the title. - discussion starts now. voting will open thursday, and end monday....

lettssss get readyyyy to rummmmmbllleee...

Sanguinor gets my vote on this one, he is just a beast. Id be interested in seeing the mathhammer on this one but I think it will favor the sanguinor.

I think it's close to 50/50... Which means I have to vote Swarmlord.

My money is on the swarmlord, can't do the math hammer right now, but i'm pretty sure he'll come out on top. He is a nasty mo fo.

This fight needs math hammer, and an epic battle scenario. Xeno vs Imperium.

Just by glancing at their abilities, I'd say it's way too close to call.

Both, I believe, are hitting each other on 4s. Both re-roll hits. Swarmlord wounds on 2s, while sanguinor needs 5 (But has re-rolls). Swarlord only has his 4+ invulnerable save to fall back on, against Sanguinor's 3+, but Sanguinor will be forced to re-roll those successful saves (Which we all know, the greater the chance of failure, the more valuable those re-rolls become). Sanguinor would swing first, but Swarlord has more wounds.


However, if these were sixth edition rules, this wouldn't even be a contest...

I don't think 6th would change it much at all. Swarmy only has a 3+ armor save, so still has to fall back to invul and bonesabres ignore armor so Sang has to use his rerolling invul.

Sang would miss out on 1 init because of Furious Charge changing... But I'm not sure what else would change.

Ooh, this one should be close but I think the Swarmlord will take it. With psychic powers, 2 more wounds, higher toughness, higher WS (9 vs Sanguinor's 8), and forcing rerolls on successful saves the Swarmlord is the ultimate Tyranid weapon of mass destruction.

Amanax wrote:This fight needs math hammer, and an epic battle scenario. Xeno vs Imperium.

Just by glancing at their abilities, I'd say it's way too close to call.

Both, I believe, are hitting each other on 4s. Both re-roll hits. Swarmlord wounds on 2s, while sanguinor needs 5 (But has re-rolls). Swarlord only has his 4+ invulnerable save to fall back on, against Sanguinor's 3+, but Sanguinor will be forced to re-roll those successful saves (Which we all know, the greater the chance of failure, the more valuable those re-rolls become). Sanguinor would swing first, but Swarlord has more wounds.


However, if these were sixth edition rules, this wouldn't even be a contest...

The Swarmlord hits on 3's.

What do you think Sixth would change? It seems it would be about the same to me.

Sasori wrote:

Amanax wrote:This fight needs math hammer, and an epic battle scenario. Xeno vs Imperium.

Just by glancing at their abilities, I'd say it's way too close to call.

Both, I believe, are hitting each other on 4s. Both re-roll hits. Swarmlord wounds on 2s, while sanguinor needs 5 (But has re-rolls). Swarlord only has his 4+ invulnerable save to fall back on, against Sanguinor's 3+, but Sanguinor will be forced to re-roll those successful saves (Which we all know, the greater the chance of failure, the more valuable those re-rolls become). Sanguinor would swing first, but Swarlord has more wounds.


However, if these were sixth edition rules, this wouldn't even be a contest...

The Swarmlord hits on 3's.

What do you think Sixth would change? It seems it would be about the same to me.

Access to Biomancy powers could make a large difference in Swarmlords power depending on what you rolled.

ok, so voting opened now, we will shut it down on monday, so we have a solid 5 days to get this one sorted. id like to see a ton of votes for this one.

Voted for the Swarmlord, I ran the math on this a few times and he came out on top every time. I think he's got this one by a fair margin.

Swarmlord, (four sabre-)hands down.

As much as I want the Winner to be the guy that beat Abaddon, I think it's ever so slightly tipped in the Nids favour.... a worthy second for Sanguinor though.

Swarmy, even before biomancy, and if he gets any combination of Iron Arm/Warp Speed/Endurance, there's just no chance.

swarmlord wins.. did the napkin math and sanguinar per my math deals 2.3 wounds before his death in the absolute best of circumstances.. he doesn't stand a chance

going into the last few days, swarmy with the lead, albeit plenty of time and room left for sanguinor to storm back.

Yeah, this goes to the Swarmlord, no contest.

swarmlord wins this one with 62% of the vote. a little closer then some predicted but still a pretty pointed victory.

next up, a flip of the script and the "dead-est" unit. havent really recieved nominations yet for this one, so i will open the floor to nominate the worst unit possible. do so via reply or PM. entrants must be between 150 - 200 pts, and can be chosen from any codex selection and may include vehicles.

ill leave the OP intact for the next few days, and of course it will be copyed and saved as a document in case anyone wants to refer back to it for whatever reason.

well.... no nominations for the next one, so ill give it till friday. - need 8 nominations by then, else ill assume the ship has sailed here and let her go into the sweet night.