ok, so here are the final rankings.


The final Rankings:

Ghazskull – 83
Abbadon – 64
Swarmlord – 59
mephiston – 54
kharn – 52
draigo -51
vect – 45
calgar – 42
eldrad – 41
logan grimnar – 40
imotekh – 33
celestine – 29
lysander – 27
sanguinor 26
fateweaver – 25
grimaldus – 23
--------------------------
old one eye – 22
skarbrand – 21
skulltaker - 21
huron blackheart 21
prince yriel – 20
farsight – 19
dante – 19
the duke – 18
typhus -16
old zogwort 16
njal stormcaller 15
ragnar – 15
straken 13
marbo -13
yarrick – 12
helbrecht – 11
urien – 9
shadowsun – 7
wazdakka – 6
ulric – 6
cato – 4
anvil thwan – 1
ra'lai – 1


it was close for a while, and we BARLEY avoided having to go to a wildcard tiebreaker for the last spot. however, in the end we have a solid top 16. so, starting at the top with ill seed them in alternating pools. from there, we will use NHL playoff format, so 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 in both pools, and continuing from there.

apologies if your fav character didnt make it in. we had 39 entrants, and 966 votes over the last week. thanks to everyone who nominated and voted!

our pools look like this:
POOL A
1.Ghazskull
2. Swarmlord
3. Kharn
4. vect
5. Eldrad
6. Imotekh
7.Lysander
8. Fateweaver

POOL B
1. Abbadon
2. Mephiston
3. Draigo
4. Calgar
5. Logan Grimnar
6. Celestine
7. Sanguinor
8. Grimaldus

the first round matchups will be:
Ghazzskull v fateweaver, - 66% win
Swarmlord vrs Lysander, 77% win
Kharn v Imotekh, 62% win
Vect v Eldrad, 54% win

Abbadon v Grimaldus, 87% win
Mephiston v Sanguinor, 57% win
Draigo v Celestine, 64% win
Calgar v Logan Grimnar. 62% win


well match one is done, with ghazzy securing his #1 seed with a 66% win over fateweaver.
match 2 sees the swarmlord take down lysander with 77% of the votes.
match 3 sees kharn take the win with 62% of the votes.
match 4, vect takes it by a nose with 54%.
match 5 has Abbadon with a convincing 87% win over grimaldus.
match 6 has been won by the Sanguinor, with 57% of the votes over Mephiston.
match 7 is won by draigo with 64% of the votes.
match 8 has Logan take it, with 62% of the votes.

next up, round 2. the matchups will be:

Ghazskull vrs Vect - 68% win
Swarmlord vrs Kharn
Abbadon vrs Sanguinor
Draigo vrs Logan Grimnar

Ghaz wins the first match of round 2, to advance to the semi finals
swarmlord wins this one with a staggering 82%. he will meet Ghaz in the semis.
Sanguinor takes this matchup in another one sided match, with 81%
Draigo wins this one with 71% of the vote.

so round 2 is done, and all the victors did so in rather grand and decisive fashion. that should make for an interesting semi final!

for ROUND THREE:
Ghazskull vrs the swarmlord 54% win
and
Sanguinor vrs Draigo - 72% win

swarmlord takes this one with 54%. super close matchup all the way through. so swarmlord awaits in the finals.
sanguionor takes this one with a staggering 72% of the vote.

for the final!! - The swarmlord takes this one with 62% of the vote. congrats to the swarmlord for emerging as 40k 5th ed's deadliest special character.



aaannnnndd.... th-th-th-t-t-tthaaats alll folks. - thanks for all the votes and interest for the contests.

1 day left and this one is neck and neck...

the avatar wins the second match. Next up: Space wolf Lord vrs Orc Warboss.

thanks for the votes so far, lets keep em rolling.

the way you have it se tup once you vote on one you can't vote again

add* ie i voted yesterday and now can't vote on this one today

yup fixed it.

SW Lord is very poorly built...

yea thats possible, but that was the entry. im not changing any of the other entrys, only adding new ones, so while it may be a 'poor' net build, there could be others that are also poor.

its all for fun tho.

one day left and the orc warboss leads by a small margin.

Why would you choose an Ethereal for the Tau? That is one of the most worthless and least combat based HQ choices ever invented.

Yeah, why wouldnt the lord take a thunderwolf mount? i definitly would for any one on one fight

As for the archon, i do think he should have a huskblade. agonizer is fine and all but when i build archons for killy death its always the huskblade.

War boss

problem with the huskblade is its str 3.... so wounding on 5+ or even 6+ vrs most targets. not really reliable.

as for the wolf lord... - not my build. it did alright in the live campaign.

ethereal is in because it was a suggestion (jokingly no doubt) and i needed a 20th character, that was not a duplicate, and the tau shas'o already in the list. besides, all 20 cant be WAC perfect builds.
---------------------------------------------------
this match is looking pretty close. so far its DEAD even each side taking 50% right now.

match three has the warboss winning by a nose.

next up the Necron Overlord against the Tau Shas'o

1 day left and the overlord is leading by a ton.

necron overlord takes his first battle without a sweat. next up the lightning claw SM master against the dark eldar archon.

thanks for everyones votes and continued interest. lets keep it rolling! almost halfway through round one.

While I find the concept of Deadliest Warrior: 40k edition, isn't half the point of the show arguing about who gets the edge in certain fields and that scene where the two duke it out (I suppose this could be replaced by neckbeard argument and writing, which I can do.) In any case, I suppose I've set a precedent for debate.

um ok? not what you meant TBH kain... lol. clarify?

DarthSpader wrote:um ok? not what you meant TBH kain... lol. clarify?

I saw the words "deadliest warrior' in the title and thought that this was a reference to the American television show. Which while it does have questionable testing methods, it's still rather entertaining and the third series fixed most of the more gripe worthy issues with the first two. If you haven't watched it, you can see it online on spiketv's website.

ah, yes i caught the first 2 seasons, havent watched much of the third. decent show all things considered.

The American Deadliest warrior is silly. The American wins every fight bar the Spetsnaz.

But I digress. The BT marshal is not effective. Terminator Honours for gaks sake!

I think all the entries are less then "net list optimal" but that just serves as an equalizer, I think. The tv show I do notice the Americans tend to win majority.... That's why I liked the 1st season more. Less "factonal" and more "class" based like the ninja and spartan.

**updated**

round one pool A finished, first match of Pool B - the ethereal vrs the epositilary.

This isn't even a contest, the Libby could probably kill MULTIPLE Ethereals without breaking a sweat. He has the upper hand on virtually every, single, solitary category.

Why would you enter an ethereal instead of O'Shovah?

sorry Ph34r, no special characters this one. next campaign will probally be the special character contest. and yea - the libby probally gonna get the walk here. - hence why its the first of this round. get the gimmie done with and move on.

Huskblade may be str 3, but its also a power weapon, but always causes instant death regardless of toughness, and with combat drugs, the archon could be Str 4, or reroll to wounds, (or weapon skill or +1 attack yadda yadda) but instant death is amazing. (i wont get into having the soul trap to make him Str10 by the end of the match since this is one on one)

But i understand you have them not optimized, which is fine....but i wouldnt call it "net" list optimized, cause some people like to build them with a really good build without ever looking for their build online

So far i do agree with why bring a Etheral? a crisis suit commander would be a bit more "Fair"

Also are these battles essentially just Close combat? or is their shooting taken into account?

the battle is on a 24"x24" table, pretty much a normal 40k game. so shooting, running, charging and so on.

as for the archon, you only have a 1 in 6 chance of getting +1 str, or reroll wounds. and even the reroll wounds is not that amazing when you still need 5+. the agonizer is a power weapon as well, you already have top notch WS, and you dont really "need" the pain token in this kind of fight. if you have 6 attacks, you can probally hit 4-5 of those, and with the agonizer wound a solid 3 times on a decent roll. the huskblade might wound once. even with rerolls. ID may factor in a bit, but chances are youcan just acomplish the same thing by wounding a bunch of times. plus you have a str 8 ap 2 shot going in on the charge - wich should ID most things. (also against t5+ models the agonizer = much more reliable win)

as for the ethereal, there already is a tau shas'o in the fight, and the rules stated no "duplicate" characters. and really, a tau crisis commander is hard to make decent without duplicating. and tbh i needed to fill the numbers out to an even 20 and took suggestions from the previous thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmm well the poor ethereal is getting absloloutly WRECKED in this one....


anyone object to the ethereal throwing in the towel, and moving on?

Before voting, could someone do me a favour and post up the total points value of each of the combatants.

I'm all for comparison, but a rough reckoning has this last contest 50pts vs what, twice that? more?

Cheers

Andrew

1 day left on this round. and the brother capt leads with 100% (of the 4 votes...)

would like to see more voting on this one before it closes sunday.

and the tyrant takes match 8. only 2 more to go, with the first round. next up is the chaos lord fighting a space marine master in the classic grudge match.

yea i realize diablo is out today... but i hope to see much voting on this one.

once again thanks for all the votes so far.

less then a day left and the space marine is kicking some chaos butt....

Mostly because the Chaos Lord has no upgraded equipment...

You have failed to define the equipment and gifts/mutations the Lord has... Had to vote master w/ powerfist

Hrmnnn....the blissgiver is nasty in one vs one combat, but he's going to have to get through a 3++ save, and the chaos lord has a chance of just hitting himself in the face with the blissgiver. While the Chaos Lord wins if he can wound, he's going to have a hell of a time getting that wound.

the CSM lord had "CSM lord, w/ mark of slanesh, terminator armor, combi melta, daemon weapon"

apologies if his wargear was not clear. still, decent amount of votes and was a pretty close fight in the end. certainly not the butt kicking other matches have seen.

this next one is the battle of the lower tier guys, both should be worth much less then the 250, coming in around 100 each.

Company Commander kicks ass

Slightly imbalanced, but im not going to argue over it.

Haemoncolus it would rip the ig commanders head off

No save on the haemy really.... Where the CC has a invun save.... And a plasma pistol.

I'm betting on the haemonculus. High initiative, strong weapons,,, the commander won't even swing.

the high init may be the factor here.

anyway 1 day left and it was dead even for a while, but the haemey is pulling away.

Round Two starts now....

lettssss get readyyy to rummmbbbbllee??

Now it gets interesting...

Match two of the second round starts now... Archon vrs Overlord....

Gonna have to go for the overlord. A kitted out overlord is the single nastiest generic HQ in the game and the Overlord listed looks pretty damned kitted out.

It's not really fair. The Overlord with MSS is going to "take over" the Archon more than 50% of the time, causing him to strike himself (and just as importantly, not attack the Overlord that round.)

Then, on any round the Overlord can *also* use the one-shot Tesseract Labyrinth to force an Archon to roll > his remaining wounds. Instant death.

Overlords w/MSS & TL are really optimized for 1:1 combat. Their whole deal is forcing a base to base engagement with the enemy's strongest IC in a real-life situation melee, while their opponent will try to engage with multiple models (thereby rendering the MSS dramatically less effective). Unfortunately, by setting up a situation where the Overlord is guaranteed to directly melee the Archon, it plays into the Overlord's whole reason for being.

Hands down it's in favor of the Necron Overlord. MSS + TL + 2+/3++/4+++ (RezOrb) + S7 PW = Archon is going to have a bad day.

perhaps. but if the archon can avoid those MSS, he has higher init, a power weapon and a ton of attacks, plus that 2++. although i do agree the overlord seems to have a few more toys that grant him the edge.

and in game, ive noticed archons to be much more effective at bashing IC then i have with an overlord. the issue there, is the IC's on both sides usually have attached units to absoarb and deal extra wounds. in this fight, none of that exists - so im thinking its a crap shoot.

*necron overlord vs Dark Eldar Archon.*
The Necron overlord swings his phase staff.
The Dark Eldar Archon blocks it with his sword, which is instantly vaporized.
The Necron overlord then proceds to ram the staff down the dark eldar's throat.
The NECRON OVERLORD WINS!

DarthSpader wrote:perhaps. but if the archon can avoid those MSS, he has higher init, a power weapon and a ton of attacks, plus that 2++. although i do agree the overlord seems to have a few more toys that grant him the edge.

and in game, ive noticed archons to be much more effective at bashing IC then i have with an overlord. the issue there, is the IC's on both sides usually have attached units to absoarb and deal extra wounds. in this fight, none of that exists - so im thinking its a crap shoot.

I did a back-of-the napkin on it, and it was closer than I initially assumed. If I understand the Archon, he's going to get a base 5 attacks, with a 2/3 to hit and 1/2 to wound, then a 1/3 to get through the Overlord's invulnerable save. That ends up being .55555 Wounds inflicted per attack, or about 5-6 rounds to inflict 3 Wounds and kill the Overlord, right? Who *might* get back up.

But in the meantime the engagement will have gone on for 11 rounds or so, because the Overlord will "take over" his attack with the MSS half the time.

In those 11 rounds, the Archon will have swung at himself 5-6 times, averaging 2 hits per round with a 1/2 to wound, then needs a "1" to break his invulnerable save. And at the same time, the Overlord will have swung at him 10-11 times, 3 attacks with 1/2 to hit, 5/6 to wound, for another 13.75 tries at breaking his invulnerable save, for a total of about 20x the Overlord will have to make his invulnerable roll. If he fails any, he dies, right?

It might be a crap shoot, but one side is rolling for 7's while the other needs boxcars.

Odd thing is, I also think the Archon might be better in normal CC.

Randall Turner wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:perhaps. but if the archon can avoid those MSS, he has higher init, a power weapon and a ton of attacks, plus that 2++. although i do agree the overlord seems to have a few more toys that grant him the edge.

and in game, ive noticed archons to be much more effective at bashing IC then i have with an overlord. the issue there, is the IC's on both sides usually have attached units to absoarb and deal extra wounds. in this fight, none of that exists - so im thinking its a crap shoot.

I did a back-of-the napkin on it, and it was closer than I initially assumed. If I understand the Archon, he's going to get a base 5 attacks, with a 2/3 to hit and 1/2 to wound, then a 1/3 to get through the Overlord's invulnerable save. That ends up being .55555 Wounds inflicted per attack, or about 5-6 rounds to inflict 3 Wounds and kill the Overlord, right? Who *might* get back up.

But in the meantime the engagement will have gone on for 11 rounds or so, because the Overlord will "take over" his attack with the MSS half the time.

In those 11 rounds, the Archon will have swung at himself 5-6 times, averaging 2 hits per round with a 1/2 to wound, then needs a "1" to break his invulnerable save. And at the same time, the Overlord will have swung at him 10-11 times, 3 attacks with 1/2 to hit, 5/6 to wound, for another 13.75 tries at breaking his invulnerable save, for a total of about 20x the Overlord will have to make his invulnerable roll. If he fails any, he dies, right?

It might be a crap shoot, but one side is rolling for 7's while the other needs boxcars.

Odd thing is, I also think the Archon might be better in normal CC.

Easier way of putting it. Archon has a 1/18 chance per attack of getting through the overlord's invo. 2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound, 1/3 to pass invo=1/9, but 1/2 the time mind shackle scarabs will turn the attacks against the archon=1/18 per attack.

Overlord swings=1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/6 get past invo and instant kill the T3 Archon=5/72=7% per attack, 21% per round.

Mindshackle=1/2 hit (failed leadership technically) 1/2 wound 1/6 get past invo=1/24 or 4.2% chance of breaking the archon's invo *2 attacks=8.4% per round. Fine print is failed invo=dead. On I2 the overlord follows up with 3 attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, no invo=15/12=125% chance of S7 instant death with no saves allowed.

So in short the Archon has a 55% chance of generating 1 wound per round and the overlord has a 31.4% chance of instant killing the archon per round. It should take the overlord about 3 rounds to kill the Archon, and the Archon about 6 rounds to kill the overlord for the first time (then the ever living kicks in)

Math hammer says the Overlord can take on 2 Archons at the same time.

schadenfreude wrote:Easier way of putting it.

hmmm... i think math fail, but I know not matter.

Missed this gem, great stuff, looking forward to more results!

Someone who's familiar with these two dudes, post a pre-fight analysis.

well:

they are both space marines, and have force weapons
the brother captain however has his in thunderhammer form. the libby on the other hand, rocks with a storm shield.

i dont think the psyker powers really come into play here, and since the libby has init, (not striking with a thunder hammer) if he can get his wounds through the brother capts invun of 4+ he can ID him via force wepaons.

however, if he fails, hes facing str 10 attacks coming back, that will ID him not only from force weapon but the whole double str thing. i think this boils down to wichever one fails its invun first and gets insta killed by the other. since the libby has init, and a slightly better save (3++ vrs 4++) i think he gets the very slight edge.

im not considering any kind of pre combat shooting though. the GK with that psycannon could with a lucky round or 2 of movement and shooting end the fight before it even gets to melee....

Oh Noes, it's complicated though! The SM Librarian has "fleet", so he can engage a bit sooner, and the Psycannon probably won't matter b/c if the Librarian has the Storm Shield he had to have taken the Terminator Armor option giving him 2+ for normal armor saves, won't use his 3++ invul saves. And he can "eat" one lucky hit from the Psycannon anyway, it won't matter for the ensuing melee b/c they're both throwing ID punches. So, it does come down to who lands the first punch in melee, correct?

And then, though, you gave the GK Brother Captain his Psykotroke Grenades - and that's why it gets complicated. Then, about half the time the Librarian either is very vulnerable to hits or drops his Leadership to the point where he can't activate his force weapon, right?

I think the GK dude wins on that. May have missed stuff.

yup i think this one is up to the dice gods, or the EMPRAH! may be decide who is deadliest here.

I was going to vote for the Epositilary as he does seem to have the edge over the Bother Captain, except for the whole grenades thing. I really do think that those put the GK over the SM in a big way.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I was going to vote for the Epositilary as he does seem to have the edge over the Bother Captain, except for the whole grenades thing. I really do think that those put the GK over the SM in a big way.

Yeah, I want to get a rough idea percentage-wise before I vote, it looked like some 60/40 in favor of the Librarian until I went back to the first page to get the Brother Captain's equipment and went, "oh.. wait... argh!"

Gk brother captain ftw

And the brother captain walks off with the win. Next up, the sm master vrs the DE Haemonculs.

My gut says this one edges towards the SM, but those Haemonculis are tricky buggers. Plus since DE are my main army I gotta root for em even though I remain impartial and don't vote.

last day for this match and the SM Master has this one it appears, well in hand...er Fist.

also, shamless <bump>

And then there were four....

the SM master wins his match up with 63%. next up, the battle to determine the best MC of the entries. the winner of this one gets a bye to fight the winner of the finals

Today is the start of the semi finals. both the necron overlord and the herald of khorne have fought tooth and nail to make it this far.... alas, there can be only one!!

the overlord has defeated the tau shas'o and a dark eldar archon to get here, while the herald took down Black templar high marshall, and an orc warboss for the right to this fight. neither of these guys has had a cake walk, so this should be one of the best yet.

Necron Overlord, hands down.

Last match up, to determine the final combatant in the finals. The winner of this one between the brother captain and the master will fight the Necron overlord for the chance to take on the hive tyrant for the title.

Also, once this matchup is completed on monday june 4th, and the deadliest warrior crowned, I'll begin the special character battle - continuing on in this thread. The match will start with a "vote in" to determine the entrants, and will be a battle between each codex's special characters. So please start posting your submissions.

Wouldn't the combo of a SS and PF put the SM master at an advantage? sure he'd hit last but he'd have a 3++ for survivability, hit a S8 which is not good for any MEQ, and doesn't he have a higher WS?

i think the kicker is the MSS on this. the sa3me thing happened to the the archon. he had a better WS, a power weapon, shadow field etc, but due to those MSS the overlord took it. either that or we have a ton of necron fans/players voting and very few space marine players or fans.

Doesn't matter GK fanboys will carry this one.

SM would definately win. SS and powerfist...

the final battle is upon us. we have the Brother Captain up against the overlord. who will win?

the winner takes on the hive tyrant for the title.


- for the next series, will be doing the special charatcers. post any codex SC to nominate them for the match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well ill get the special characters nominations started with mine and a few friends. only restrictions are: no armor values of any kind, and single model units only. in the case of gaurd the character fights solo, (as if he joined the correct unit and that unit was killed off) for tau, the same thing. drones etc are assumed killed off earlier in the battle.

- Asdruebael vect
- calgar
- urien rakerith
- kharn

all nominated characters will then be placed into a vote - in, with a set amount of votes to allow them in.

If the GK fails MSS (which has a strong chance of happening, around what, 50%?), he's almost guaranteed to wound himself (Quick guesstimation here says over 95% chance he's going to beat his own face in with his hammer) and with his Iron Halo conferring a 4++ he's got a... correct me if my guesstimation is significantly off, but near 70% chance he's going to fail the save and ID himself. And then there's the tesseract labyrinth also, which the GK has a 50% chance of failing and being automatically removed from play. And if it makes it past that, There's a chance that the Necron Overlord will hit first (stupid ridiculous Ward nades...), at S7. Not looking great for the Brother Capt.

And the Overlord has about a 30% (guesstimating here) chance of ID'ing the Bro Capt with his Tachyon arrow



Moving on to the Special Character shebang, I nominate:

Duke Sliscus
Abaddon
The Swarmlord
Skarbrand
Fateweaver

The Necron Overlord should take it.

I would be curious to see how far Celestine makes it in the voting. Being a t3 hero without immunity to instant death is going to cripple her chances. But people have seen her get back up enough times I think she would get quite a few votes. Other than that I nominate the skulltaker!

Overlord is easily going to win this.

I nominate Yriel!

the final battle... hive tyrant vrs overlord.

for the special characters heres the nominations so far:

- calgar
- vect
-urien rakerith
- kharn the betrayer
- Duke Sliscus
- Abaddon
- The Swarmlord
- Skarbrand
- Fateweaver
- skulltaker
- prince yriel

thats 11 entrants so far. we need 16 to get this going properly.

Overlord should win this, hands down. That build is perfect for 1-on-1 combat. Str 10 to insta-gib characters, labyrinth for MC, 2+/3++, Str 7 power weapon, MSS...

I nominate:
Kaldor Draigo
Ghazghkull
Saint Celestine
Logan Grimnar

I nominate Grimaldus, Hero of Helsreach

I'm fairly surprised at all the votes for the Hive Tyrant. The Necron Overlord should beat a Hive Tyrant in CC fairly easy. The Hive Tyrant has no Invul save, and the lashwhip is fairly useless, since the Overlord is I2 anyway.

The Bonesword also requires the Overlord to fail his 3++ THEN he has to fail a LD 10 test, to cause ID. He then still can get back up, thanks to RP.

Even without MSS going off, the Necron Overlord would likely Kill the HT in in no more than 3 rounds, while it would take an average of two rounds for the HT to cause a single unsaved wound to the Overlord.

If MSS goes off, it's overkill.

Pretty much, just what Sasori said, the necron Overlord is miles ahead of the Hive Tyrant.

The Necron Overlord has become a unit that can easily compete with many of the top CC contenders when fully decked out and the Overlord with a lord court decked out is definitely one of the more frightening death stars out there.

With just MSS taken into account, you're looking at the Hive Tyrant wounding himself on a 4+ so with a statline attack value, that's 2 wounds he'll inflict upon himself that he can't roll a single save against, AND he has to take a leadership test which, if he fails, will cause him to inflict Instant death upon himself (pity he doesn't have twin boneswords so then he'd have to roll it on a 3D6 which would have left him with a roughly 50% chance of ID'ing himself ) So all in all, you're looking at a 50% chance that the Hive Tyrant ends up wounding himself twice before combat even starts and a 25% chance of killing himself by the beginning of the 2nd round of combat. If Tesseract labyrinth is used at the start of the second, that alone will be a 66.667% chance of removing the Hive Tyrant from play. Combined with MSS, that's like a 80% chance (within the second round of combat) that the Hive Tyrant will disappear from the board before combat even starts.

When IN combat, sure, the Hive Tyrant has a higher chance of landing hits upon the Overlord with his WS 8, but the Overlord can defend against the hits with his 3++. The Hive Tyrant on the other hand, cannot defend against successful wounds from the Overlord as all the Tyrant has is a 2+. The odds are not in the favor of the Hive Tyrant. (Note: all successful individual hits from both the Overlord and the Tyrant have the same chance of wounding)

still.. pretty awsome for the overlord taking down everyone here, AND having good odds on the tyrant... probally one of the best (and IS the best of the submitted) MC.

this one is so close in the voting its hard to see who will take it.

I nominate Huron Blackheart.

42 votes. Split down the middle.

yup. this ones neck and neck.

definitily the closest match so far....wich is good for the championship methinks. a cakewalk woulda been dissapointing.

Well, I'm glad this'll be at least a close match.

It pains me to do so, but I had to vote Overlord. The Hive Tyrant is simply outclassed. The lack of an invul, the teaseract labyrinth... He'd get dominated. Which is kind of pathetic if you think about it.

Who are all the people voting for the Hive Tyrant? Any Tyrant build short of the Swarmlord itself will get massacred by an Overlord for numerous reasons already stated here.

I'm gonna just assume that haters are gonna hate and not listen to reason.

sigh...

I love the Tyranids and even I recognize that this is not a fair match up. The Hive Tyrant is nowhere close to the Overlord in melee ability. If you're going to vote for the clearly inferior unit then you should at least come out and give your darned reasons!

Kain wrote:I love the Tyranids and even I recognize that this is not a fair match up. The Hive Tyrant is nowhere close to the Overlord in melee ability. If you're going to vote for the clearly inferior unit then you should at least come out and give your darned reasons!

Agreed 100%

Sort of just occurred to me that some people are stuck in the mindset that Crons suck in CC as a whole, that might be why... can't be certain, thus it'd be nice if reasons for Tyrant votes were given

King Pariah wrote:

Kain wrote:I love the Tyranids and even I recognize that this is not a fair match up. The Hive Tyrant is nowhere close to the Overlord in melee ability. If you're going to vote for the clearly inferior unit then you should at least come out and give your darned reasons!

Agreed 100%

Sort of just occurred to me that some people are stuck in the mindset that Crons suck in CC as a whole, that might be why... can't be certain, thus it'd be nice if reasons for Tyrant votes were given

I think people are assuming that the Tyrant's one extra wound is going to carry it the day. Well, not when it has no invulnerable save it's not!

me and my gaming buddy just ran 10 1v1 battles with the tyrant and overlord. the overlord won 6 of the matches. they resulted (paraphrased) as:

1. tyrant win 2w ranged, finished in cc, RP failed
2. overlord win, tach arrow wounded, CC finish
3. overlord win, MSS =2w, overlord finished him 1 round CC
4. tyrant win, bad saves and RP on overlord
5. tyrant win, pretty close to round 1
6: overlord win, passed invuns, took 1 wound, but won in 2 rounds
7verlord wins, tach arrow wound, finished in CC
8: overlord win, in 3 rounds.
9: overlord wins, 5 1/2 rounds. (lots of fail dice here on both sides)
10: tyrant wins, REALLY lucky shooting, and poor saves by overlord left him with 1 wound left in CC, and he failed his invun and RP after 1 round.

so the MSS only worked once, the tach arrow did its thing twice, it fired in 4 rounds, because base don ramdom first turn, the tyrant was able to close gap and charge T1. and failed to wound twice....damn those 1's.

so the overlord seems to have a definite edge. his high str warscythe, decent toughness, and invun, vrs so invun on the tyrant makes an issue. however the tyrant has the range edge, with a ton of shots. im a big fan of the tyrant myself, but i must agree.... the overlord has the combat edge here. simply because he combines good defence with pretty respectable (if not slow) offence.

The deamon prince is wrong, it can't take two powers unless it is a tzeentch DP. And if it is Tzeentch... seriously why gift of chaos over bolt of change? Also wings... that should keep it out of reach of the avatar... really if this were based on combat then it would be the DP (provided it didn't do anything stupid) however as a simple comparison of rules/stats and personal opinions then it would easily be the avatar.

EDIT: IIRC there may have been an errata about the number of psychic powers for MCs... am I right in thinking this?


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Also I voted Tyrant because of it's sheer close combat mass. Higher WS, S, T, W, A, I etc...

Hive Tyrant for MCness, more reliable ranged and melee.

Hive tyrant, Psychic powers do help. paroxysm to reduce to initiative 1, etc.

Also I voted Tyrant because of it's sheer close combat mass. Higher WS, S, T, W, A, I etc...

The Hive Tyrant has less strength than the Overlord. . He lacks the durability of an invul save and all of the insane gear, that the Overlord has.

Hive tyrant, Psychic powers do help. paroxysm to reduce to initiative 1, etc.

Paroxysm doesn't lower Init to 1. Not that it would even matter, the Overlord is Init 2... It's also a PSA attack, so he can't use it once he's in close combat.


I really don't understand the Votes for the HT here. He is just outclassed by the Overlord.

Are you people high or something? The Tyrant has no Invulnerable save, that's tantamount to an autolose against something like the Overlord which can smack the Tyrant down with a fethload of Warscythe hits while anything the Tyrant can dish out will bounce off the Overlord's 3++ save and Res Orb. Not to mention that a bonesword tyrant will instantly kill itself if the mindshackle scarabs go off so much as once for want of Eternal Warrior.

Haven't read the entire thread, but whomever gave the Thunderlord crappy ass gear needs shot...

Wolf Lord, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Runic Armour, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear.

That load out, from my own personal experience, would destroy everything else on the list. An Ork Warboss would die from one hit... and only a 5++? Please. Twolf makes him base S5. x2 is S10. Instantgib that ork.

All the rest is meh, but that's a gross error in the whole whatever this is.

And whomever thinks a Hive tyrant could whip a Necron overlord (albiet, drop the awful Tachyon Arrow and get a 2+ armour save up there), hasn't seen bugs squashed... a lot.

TheKbob wrote:Haven't read the entire thread, but whomever gave the Thunderlord crappy ass gear needs shot...

Wolf Lord, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Runic Armour, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear.

That load out, from my own personal experience, would destroy everything else on the list. An Ork Warboss would die from one hit... and only a 5++? Please. Twolf makes him base S5. x2 is S10. Instantgib that ork.

All the rest is meh, but that's a gross error in the whole whatever this is.

Maybe you should of, the gear of the characters has already been discussed. OP gathered these from people he knows, so they may not be optimal but that's just that.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Maybe you should of, the gear of the characters has already been discussed. OP gathered these from people he knows, so they may not be optimal but that's just that.

Well, if you don't run optimal gear, then what's the point? Seems like a circle jerk of nothing then. You might as well change the title to "Derpiest Warrior" and move on. Seriously, who takes a PF and a Frost Blade?

Additionally, I nominate the SWARMLORD for special characters, and Old One Eye; just for the lulz.

only a few hours left. looks like the tyrant is taking a bit of a lead on this one. maybe the overlord can blame this one on the refs...

as stated earlier, builds were submited by local gaming group. the point of this thread is to see if the dakka community agrees with, or achieves the same result. clearly not. in ours, the archon took the thing, and here that same archon died early on. i guess thats dice. anyway, lets see if the overlord can pull out the win here, or if the tyrant walks off.

The only advantage the tyrant has is that it strikes first in CC. The Tachyon Arrow has infinite range (and S10 AP1), the Overlord strikes at S7 with a PW, and the Mindshackle Scarabs can make the Tyrant kill itself in the first round of combat, and the Tesseract Labyrinth makes the Tyrant auto-die on a 5+, assuming he has all of his wounds left.

S7 power-weapon warscythe attacks = bad day for invul-less Hive Tyrant.

Special character nomination time.

- while i did clear out the ongoing edit that was the first post, in favor of the new one i DID save the information as a direct copy paste into word. so if anyone would like the info or details from the first post its still available.

my final thoughts are i do tend to agree the overlord should have won. but with so many votes its hard to argue results. feels like a cheat perhaps, as the tyrant voters were less vocal untill the end, but... thats the way these things go sometimes. overall was a well fought "campaign" and it went much better then i initially thought. with that, lets move on to the SC, and determine our combatants.

Old Zogwort!

Let's carry the Joke character of old one eye all the way through. Although realistically Abaddon the Despoiler is the deadliest.

gotta have some with this eh? - added zogs to the ballot.

Typhus of the Death Guard.

Imotekh

no mephiston?

voted ghaz but figured ole meph would be a named on the board

Add in Bjorn, Njal, Ulrik, and Ragnr

typhus, imo, meph, njal, ulrik and ragnor added... i believe bjorn is a dreadnought correct? since he is armor...gonna have to say no to that one

edit: i dont have the SW codex handy, so please forgive spelling errors. if anyone has the correct spelling i will update to correct if im wrong.

You pput in Old One Eye, so I figured big guys were okay

You could make a program that calculated the results of thousands (millions?) of rounds of combat between them if you're going purely on stats.

Kharn. Even if he loses he wins. After all, Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.

@ angry squig... MC are kind of diffirent since they still operate on T and wounds. plus most IC have invuns to defend against the MC power weapons. dreads are an armor facing, and work on an entirely diffrent combat system. will probally do an "armor match" at some point.

if i had such skills to program such a device, i would - but that would defeat the purpose of the thread... however before each rounds match in this one, there will be 2 days of "stat debate" to discuss and compare stats, and so on before the actual voting begins.

I might make a program when I'm more sober
Would be very easy though.

Last Time: Poorly chosen wargear

This Time: Cannot spell Ragnar Blackmane correctly.

As said kbob. Don't have the wolf dex handy, so I'm unsure on those guy's actual names/spelling. Post any corrections and I'm happy to edit.

I'm kicking myself for just remembering this SC, but Wazdakka Gutsmek

I'd like to see Cato in this. Just to see how far he makes it, not because he'd win. Khan on his Bike might have a chance given hit and run and furious charge.


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How on earth is Lysander out but Ulric in. If I get one nomination it's Lysander. He has to be in. Now I'm ticked as he will be entered late and not get the votes he should.

added lysander, cato, and wazdakka to the list.

@ lobukia - still a week to get votes in. plus, since we are going to use the top 16, there is a very good chance your entrants can get the required votes. im sure they are very popular. i for one, also kind of brain farted - else i would have entered them myself.

I hope people understand this is just nominations, not actually voting to see who wins yet.

Anyways, I nominate Shadowsun and Commander Farsight just because.

Not to be a pain in the backside but you're missing The Sanguinor from the list. In close combat he goes toe to toe against Mephiston. He's also more durable since he is an eternal warrior with a 3++ save. He's also WS8.

shadowsun, farsight, and sanguinor added to the list.

If we're going to have Tau characters, then no list is complete without Shas'O'Ra'Lai, by all accounts the deadliest Tau SC of them all, even if he specializes in range.

And again, vote Old One Eye, we need a joke character.

Why isn't Dante on this list, OK he won't win, but come on, the guys a leg-end.

i have not heard of shas'o 'ra'lai ? is he a FW character?

- dante added to list.

33 entrants in the pool now.

Is it only a one vote poll for this one?

no. this is the nomination stage. the top 16 entrants (witht he most votes) will be put into a playoff format campaign like the last one. since there are SO many SC in the game, and only 16 spots, im doing a week long vote in to determine who gets into the match.

Ok, sorry for all the questions I only found this thread today, do you actually play out the battles, vassal or what?

DarthSpader wrote:shadowsun, farsight, and sanguinor added to the list.

Sweet, thanks. I've now voted for him. Love the fluff and love the model. In the fluff he kicks Ka'bandha up the backside majorly.

Eldercaveman wrote:Ok, sorry for all the questions I only found this thread today, do you actually play out the battles, vassal or what?

No, it's a vote battle. Two individuals go head to head and whoever comes out on top with the most votes wins that round and proceeds on to the next round where they go head to head with another character until there is one left standing.

King Pariah wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:Ok, sorry for all the questions I only found this thread today, do you actually play out the battles, vassal or what?

No, it's a vote battle. Two individuals go head to head and whoever comes out on top with the most votes wins that round and proceeds on to the next round where they go head to head with another character until there is one left standing.

ahh ok cool, someone should do this but vassal the battles, or simulate them somehow, get actual outcomes.

Eldercaveman wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:Ok, sorry for all the questions I only found this thread today, do you actually play out the battles, vassal or what?

No, it's a vote battle. Two individuals go head to head and whoever comes out on top with the most votes wins that round and proceeds on to the next round where they go head to head with another character until there is one left standing.

ahh ok cool, someone should do this but vassal the battles, or simulate them somehow, get actual outcomes.

If you look at some of the past posts, you'll see that we sometimes reason out why one character should win via probability. It doesn't always get the desired result (Ex. the final match of the non-SC deadliest warrior was Necron Overlord vs. Hive Tyrant, and though probability ruled strongly in favor of the Overlord, the Hive Tyrant ended up winning), but it can be extremely helpful in getting desired votes.

i did take partin an actual tournament with this format. players submitted their character, and fought it out in actual games. as it was great fun, i brought the idea to the forum. however orginizing and running vassal battles would be a headache... so i defaulted to the voting format. granted it ends up being more of a popularity contest, but there have been some neat debates, and good points on how certain characters work in 1v1 combat.

Well, it's a headache to actually run the battles, but the finals left a bad taste in my mouth. That was about a 75% Necron Overlord win if you played it out. (And I know you played 10 games with your friend, but frankly the results you got made me wonder if you were playing the rules correctly - ie, MSS has a 50% chance *eveery single round*, it's not a one-time thing, and it succeeded once? wtf?)

What's the point if the contestant with the catchiest name wins?

randall... the battles i ran the MSS did go off, problem was the attack roll was a 1, and alot failed to wound. the tyrant player also got a fairley good roll with his LD on those as well. there was a rather impressive streak of 1's and 2's when it came time for the MSS. - when it actually did work, it worked very well. but i only really mentioned it if it inflicted anything significant in the fight.

as mentioned, i kind of agree with the overlord outclassing the tyrant, but the votes spoke, and it would be a kick in the pants to the near 60 people who voted the way of the tyrant.

in any case.... moved on.

No Marbo or Yarrick, cannot vote ;p

LOL at gazkgul winning.

marbo and yarrick added.... good to see some IG coming in.

ghaz not winning.... just leading the nominations. no winner crowned with this one. only the 16 entrants with the most votes.however number of votes WILL determine "seeding" if you will.

edit: also clarfied the title of the poll.. a few too many seem to think THIS is the contest....when its not. hopefully that helps clear things up. - i also suggest reading the first post. has all the important news, updates etc.

edit: - straken added as well

36 entrants now in the pool

Colonel "I eat land sharks for breakfast" Straken

Ra'lai is indeed a forgeworld character, and he is the only Tau special character who is better then "meh".

Kain wrote:Ra'lai is indeed a forgeworld character, and he is the only Tau special character who is better then "meh".

Agreed, especially after the rules were changed from "Baby's first Lascannon" to "ASSAULT 2 LASCANNON."

Ghazzie for the Nomination!
Ghazzie for the Win!
("but maybe he'll lose...")
('Eadbut)
Ghazzie for the Win!

im not sure about adding FW characters to the match. they tend to be much more powerful or have rules that make a massive diffirence.

however we do have a somewhat lack of tau entrants, in both this one so far, and the previous.

i suppose since tau have only 2 of the 36, there is no harm.... however i would request no more FW SC nominated please. in my exp FW characters or units tend to be a touch OP and it could be even worse in a 1v1 battle.

Helbrecht is not on the list, is he too busy killing stuff? Not that he'll win, but still.

Aun'va is also missing, and he's potentially the most lethal character in the game!

EDIT: You're also missing Anval Thawn, who along with Saint Celestine is unbeatable in this contest, seeing as they'll just keep reincarnating. The only SC that could arguably win is Zogwort, what with his squig-shenanigans.

DarthSpader wrote:im not sure about adding FW characters to the match. they tend to be much more powerful or have rules that make a massive diffirence.

however we do have a somewhat lack of tau entrants, in both this one so far, and the previous.

i suppose since tau have only 2 of the 36, there is no harm.... however i would request no more FW SC nominated please. in my exp FW characters or units tend to be a touch OP and it could be even worse in a 1v1 battle.

Ra'lai is actually fairly balanced, most of his better weapons have gets hot, and he only has a 3+ save and a 4+ save that only applies at range. Of course he can pull JSJ better than normal crisis suits can. And of course like most Tau characters he crumbles like a house of cards if assaulted by anything of note, though he looks badass.



Feth yeah.

i wish GW would make tau look like that in general.... FW crisis suits = badass win.

@ walrus, added helbrecht and thwan to the entrants.... is aun'va a legitimite nomination, or a joke like old one eye? if you indeed would like to nominate him, ill add him to the entrants.
.
39 now in the pool. might have to extend this to a double tourney. 4 "pools of 8 each. pool 1-2 fight it out as per standard playoffs, then 3-4 get it on. winner of the 1-2 fights winner of the 3-4 for the title....

do you guys want to go that route, or stick with the top 16? with possibly 40 entrants and counting, more then half of the entrants wont see the fight at this rate. its easy enough to change if people aggree to it.

No stick with the 16. 40 is just too much

Just do Top 16, that takes a while in itself.

DarthSpader wrote:randall... the battles i ran the MSS did go off, problem was the attack roll was a 1, and alot failed to wound. the tyrant player also got a fairley good roll with his LD on those as well. there was a rather impressive streak of 1's and 2's when it came time for the MSS. - when it actually did work, it worked very well. but i only really mentioned it if it inflicted anything significant in the fight.

as mentioned, i kind of agree with the overlord outclassing the tyrant, but the votes spoke, and it would be a kick in the pants to the near 60 people who voted the way of the tyrant.

in any case.... moved on.

Just want to point out here, that MSS causes D3 Hits, you don't roll to hit. If that's what I'm understanding what you mean from "Attack Roll"


Anyway, All of the Necron Special Characters would fare pretty poorly in 1 on 1 combat.

Swarmlord should make it in.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
EDIT: You're also missing Anval Thawn, who along with Saint Celestine is unbeatable in this contest, seeing as they'll just keep reincarnating. The only SC that could arguably win is Zogwort, what with his squig-shenanigans.

Actually Zogwort vs Thawn/Celestine would end in a draw, due to the everyone getting bogged down in a rules dispute That or in bloodshed.

Wait I just noticed that the people who joined late are at a huge disadvantage. Like theres no real chance for Thawn to lose in most of these matches, but hes in last because he was so recently added in

Perhaps. But we got most entrants in before the weekend, and have untill weds for them to get votes. Alas, with close to 40 entrants and only 16 spots, many will be disappoint that there fav character didn't make it.

That's why I was suggesting a second 16 entrant pool. That way 32 of the 40+ get in. That would make the whole thing take longer, but would allow most characters at least a chance.

Lysander only has that many votes? I am in shock.

Whoops! voted for ghazgkull, and then realised that the sanguinor was there too.
I can has renomination for both of them?

the poll has multiple voting enabled, so you can choose more then 1.... preferablly your choice for the 16 to make it into the campaign.

ok so with 2 days left in the nomination voting here are the current ones making it in.

the seeding so far: (not exact seeding, just ranked 1-16)

1. Ghazskull – 53
2. Abbadon – 40
3. Swarmlord - 38
4. Kharn –35
5. Draigo – 35
6. Vect - 32
7. Mephiston – 31
8. Eldrad – 27
9. Calgar – 25
10. Logan Grimnar – 24
11. Celestine – 20
12. Imotekh – 19
13. Skarbrand – 17
14. Fateweaver – 16
15. Old one eye, Old zogwort, Lysander – 15
16. The Sanguinor - 14

now, since we have a 3 way tie for the 15th spot, that probally means Sanguinor wont make it in, unless he has a good rise in the votes. of the 3 that are tied (old one eye, zogwort and lysander), 2 of them will make it in. we also have a tie in 4th spot between kharn and Draigo, wich may also affect lower seeds.

finally, Huron Blackheart, Skull taker, Njal, Ragnar, Grimaldus, Yriel, The Duke, and Dante are all fairley close with 10 or more votes... so any increase in there numbers might see them in. the rest of the entrants all look to be less then 10 votes, and thus im afraid will have a hard time making it in.

in the result of a tie for any posistion, a "wildcard" vote off will determine the final spots, and be the tie breaker. the seeding order will determine who fights who, so dont stop voting for your favs, even if they already have a ton.

i can't seem to multi-vote?

^
Me too...

the poll is set to "allow multiple choice answers" - however i think if you vote and submit your done. only way around that i think is to make a second account.... although i think that may be against the rules of the forum. if it is definitly dont do that. i dont want anyone getting in trouble for this.

- however if you are having issues voting, submit your vote via PM and i will add it to the count at the end.

DarthSpader wrote:the poll is set to "allow multiple choice answers" - however i think if you vote and submit your done. only way around that i think is to make a second account.... although i think that may be against the rules of the forum. if it is definitly dont do that. i dont want anyone getting in trouble for this.

- however if you are having issues voting, submit your vote via PM and i will add it to the count at the end.

Also apparently siblings (under the same roof) can't vote once one has voted. That was a turn off for my bros.

are you guys using the same account? if not, maybe its something to do with how dakka handles accounts and IP addresses.... talk to the mods on that one. but i feel for ya. have them submit via PM and ill get them counted.

I see no Bloodthirsters, Keeper of Secrets, GUO, but I see a Fateweaver. Why? Also, why not just put em all in there, Horus, The Emperor, Khorne, ect.

DemetriDominov wrote:I see no Bloodthirsters, Keeper of Secrets, GUO, but I see a Fateweaver. Why? Also, why not just put em all in there, Horus, The Emperor, Khorne, ect.

It's the SC list - eg only Special Characters. I believe they already did a vanilla IC face off.

As much as I love Crons, I have to agree with Sasori; Cron SCs aren't great at CC, they're all designed to support their army. The only way these guys beat anyone in the fluff is by instantly healing every single time they get touched and then eventually getting lucky. This is very silly, but we all know to blame our Spiritual Liege for this. Meh, whatever, go Imotekh!


Edit: Oh btw, do FW characters count? Do we get to see An'ggrath stomp everyone? If so I nominate An'ggrath!

Varguard Obeyron could do something...

The Crusader wrote:Varguard Obeyron could do something...

Sadly, not with I2 and no invul save he can't. He gets stomped by most SCs. I use him to teleport around the field with Warriors to cause havoc, but I keep him away from most SCs. He dies before he gets a chance to use that nifty counter attack rule of his. Love him though.

I also fear with less then a day left, any nominations will probally not make it in, given the level of votes so far. :(

final rankings posted, pools determined, and first battle qued up.

debate for the first round opens now.

OOE just barely got edged out :(

Jesus H. Tap-dancing Christ, Grimaldus made it in! He actually made it.

Oh. He's against Failaddon. .

Still, might snatch victory from the jaws of defeat...

It was as of this morning a 4 way tie for the last spot at 21 votes. Grimaldus and old one eye pulled ahead, and Grimaldus just barley. Squeaked in. Gotta love the closeness of that. Its also kind of interesting to see how. The votes lined up. Very clearly people voted for alot of characters from there favorite armies, guard in particular.

In the mean time

GHAZSKULL vrs FATEWEAVER

Thoughts? I don't really know how Fateweaver does in 40k, but his 7th Ed fantasy version kicks serious butt. I've used ghazi ya few times in games, and he is a beast, so... Ghaz has the 2++ when he charges/ wagghhss... And a ton of str 10 attacks.... Vrs a mc with 4+ invun I think? How's the WS compare? Can FW pull any tricks or other moves to win at range?

What! Sanguinor vs Mephiston how am I supposed to vote for that!

It seems like an easy call - Ghazghull has better stats all around. More attacks, same toughness, higher WS, more wounds, higher strength...and I'm actually going to give this one to Fateweaver.

DarthSpader wrote:Vrs a mc with 4+ invun I think?

Fateweaver has a 3+ invul that he can reroll if he fails. Ghaz needs to deal an average of 9 wounds to get 1 through. Being a Daemon, Fateweaver also has Eternal Warrior.

Neither character is good at killing the other. Ghazghull would need roughly 9 rounds to kill Fateweaver, assuming Fateweaver passes all of his Ld checks (likely to pass). Fateweaver needs 8 rounds to kill Ghazghull, outside of his two 2++ turns (assuming he deals 0 wounds during those two turns - Ghaz can still roll a 1). So basically 9-10 rounds for each character to kill the other...plus Fateweaver hits first in every round. Plus Fateweaver has better shooting. Plus he can fly.

The main reason, however, I'm going with Fateweaver is just because of Boon of Mutation. A 6 always fails the toughness test and with the fight going on for 9-10 rounds, Ghazghull has 4 or 5 chances to roll that 6. For those who don't know, Fateweaver can force Ghazghull to take a Toughness test every game turn. If he fails, he's removed as a casualty. No saves. No Eternal Warrior. It can be used in combat.

TBH I'm not sure we should be including Celestine; again, no one who isn't Zogwort can win.

Siphen wrote:It seems like an easy call - Ghazghull has better stats all around. More attacks, same toughness, higher WS, more wounds, higher strength...and I'm actually going to give this one to Fateweaver.

DarthSpader wrote:Vrs a mc with 4+ invun I think?

Fateweaver has a 3+ invul that he can reroll if he fails. Ghaz needs to deal an average of 9 wounds to get 1 through. Being a Daemon, Fateweaver also has Eternal Warrior.

Neither character is good at killing the other. Ghazghull would need roughly 9 rounds to kill Fateweaver, assuming Fateweaver passes all of his Ld checks (likely to pass). Fateweaver needs 8 rounds to kill Ghazghull, outside of his two 2++ turns (assuming he deals 0 wounds during those two turns - Ghaz can still roll a 1). So basically 9-10 rounds for each character to kill the other...plus Fateweaver hits first in every round. Plus Fateweaver has better shooting. Plus he can fly.

The main reason, however, I'm going with Fateweaver is just because of Boon of Mutation. A 6 always fails the toughness test and with the fight going on for 9-10 rounds, Ghazghull has 4 or 5 chances to roll that 6. For those who don't know, Fateweaver can force Ghazghull to take a Toughness test every game turn. If he fails, he's removed as a casualty. No saves. No Eternal Warrior. It can be used in combat.

Couldn't say it better myself. Kairos Fateweaver FTW

ghaz vs fatereaver... assuming ghaz got the charge then shaz. assumign faterreaver got the charge... fatereaver

in reality they are still locked in combat a tthe end of urn 6 barring some very unlicky rolls on either side

basically comes down to the charge, those extra 2 attacks n the charge just slightly tilt it to ghaz if i'm calculating it right. and asuming he waaagh'ed for the 6 inch charge and fleet he should be the one getting the charge

either way this is two characters who would easily flatten almsot 90% of the list against eachother turn 1.... why?

I'm going to have to go with fateweaver here aswell, with his superior movement he should be able to get a few wounds on margaret errr I mean mag uruk before he can actually make it into combat. Then I think fateweaver should be able to outlast a depleted ghazza unless he fails one of his leadership tests.

G00fySmiley wrote:ghaz vs fateweaver... assuming ghaz got the charge then ghaz. assuming fateweaver got the charge... fateweaver

in reality they are still locked in combat at the end of turn 6 barring some very unlucky rolls on either side

basically comes down to the charge, those extra 2 attacks on the charge just slightly tilt it to ghaz if I'm calculating it right. Assuming he waaagh'ed for the 6 inch charge and fleet he should be the one getting the charge

either way these are two characters who would easily flatten almost 90% of the list against each other turn 1.... why?

Spelling and Grammar PLEASE!!!! sigh...

fix'd ish...

And why? because they were nominated (Fateweaver is my baby)

King Pariah wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:ghaz vs fateweaver... assuming ghaz got the charge then ghaz. assuming fateweaver got the charge... fateweaver

in reality they are still locked in combat at the end of turn 6 barring some very unlucky rolls on either side

basically comes down to the charge, those extra 2 attacks on the charge just slightly tilt it to ghaz if I'm calculating it right. Assuming he waaagh'ed for the 6 inch charge and fleet he should be the one getting the charge

either way these are two characters who would easily flatten almost 90% of the list against each other turn 1.... why?

Spelling and Grammar PLEASE!!!! sigh...

fix'd ish...

And why? because they were nominated (Fateweaver is my baby)

sorry i type on my phone so i can't spell check on it. I only see a sentence at a tiem i'll spell check it at home after work.

and i get that they were nominated. but its kind of like the number 1 and number 2 picks going against eachother in a single elimination tourney round 1

also note in my math i may have infered a ruel we use in house for these independant character matchups, a 24x24 play surface

We should have Warhammer 40k Rap Battles

It just worked out that way. Started at the top of the list and alternated across pools moving down. That determined the seeds, and thus the battles. However if NHL/NFL/CFL etc playoffs have shown us anything, it's that anything can happen regardless of seeding.

Can fateweaver reroll ALL failed saves, or just 1 per round? Even then, a constant 3++ kicks butt against anything. Add in rerolls, and that chance to instagib on a bad dice, and I agree. Fateweaver looks to be the tougher customer.

And yes, these matches are on a 24x24 with average terrain.

He can reroll all failed saves

Ghazzy hands down. Wayy too many power klaw attacks for even a daemonic bird to handle.

but what are power klaws if your hitting something with a rerollable 3++? and the target hits back and all you get is a 4+?

in any case, voting opens tomorrow... any other thoughts on this match?

ghaz has a 2+ armor and a 5++ (++ being inv save)

on the waaagh which lasts that turn and the next players turn

he has a 2++

really mathhammer puts it in the really close category (and lasting more than 6 turns in alot of cases)

granted the first turn, (on ghaz charge) gives him a slight edge, simply because of the 2++.... but after that kairos should tear him a new one, being a MC and all, and ghaz only having the 5+, while defending with a 3+ against the pk.

ws wise, i think they match, wounds, same, ghaz strikes last due to his PK, and as for specials, kairos has the ability to instagib ghaz, while ghaz doesnt have much in the way back. granted, a lucky dice round could swing it towards ghazskull. but i think simply because of the invuns Fateweaver has the minimal edge.

I know Kairos is annoying as hell, but in this fight either character can insta-gib the other on bad dice rolls. It is literally dependent on which one gets unlucky. Makes perfect sense for a Tzeentch daemon to be dependent on Chaos, right? Which has a better chance to happen: Kairos rolling an 11+ or Ghaz rolling a 6?

SoulGazer wrote:I know Kairos is annoying as hell, but in this fight either character can insta-gib the other on bad dice rolls. It is literally dependent on which one gets unlucky. Makes perfect sense for a Tzeentch daemon to be dependent on Chaos, right? Which has a better chance to happen: Kairos rolling an 11+ or Ghaz rolling a 6?

You mean Kairos rolling an 11+ AFTER rerolling his failed 3++

King Pariah wrote:

SoulGazer wrote:I know Kairos is annoying as hell, but in this fight either character can insta-gib the other on bad dice rolls. It is literally dependent on which one gets unlucky. Makes perfect sense for a Tzeentch daemon to be dependent on Chaos, right? Which has a better chance to happen: Kairos rolling an 11+ or Ghaz rolling a 6?

You mean Kairos rolling an 11+ AFTER rerolling his failed 3++

A re-rollable 3++

deathholydeath wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

SoulGazer wrote:I know Kairos is annoying as hell, but in this fight either character can insta-gib the other on bad dice rolls. It is literally dependent on which one gets unlucky. Makes perfect sense for a Tzeentch daemon to be dependent on Chaos, right? Which has a better chance to happen: Kairos rolling an 11+ or Ghaz rolling a 6?

You mean Kairos rolling an 11+ AFTER rerolling his failed 3++

A re-rollable 3++

No, it's reroll all failed saves (his 3++)

"Oracle of Eternity: Because of the incredible prescience of the Oracle of Tzeentch, Fateweaver and all friendly units within 6" may reroll all failed Armour, Invulnerable, and Cover saves..."

Kairos is a pain, but having run Eldrad (who usually also has a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save) I can tell you, they will fail with enough dice thrown at them. Ghaz is one of the worst matchups for Kairos because he can get into combat easy, and has the weight of attacks to back it up.

Given his "Prophet of the Waaaagh!" rule, he can easily match Kairos' threat range, with 7 S10 attacks on the charge (with 5 attacks base). Kairos, sadly only gets 3 attacks on the charge, 2 at base, and needs 4+ to hit 4+ to wound. Melee is going to be an uphill battle for Kairos.

However, Ghaz doesn't hold near an advantage at range, that kairos does. So Kairos could in theory, stay back and try and use the terrain and shooting attacks to increase his advantage.

it'll be pretty brutal, either way.

I voted Ghazzy, because I think he just has the slight edge over Kairos.

As a side note: how did Yriel not even make it in?

1 day left and ghaz has the voting lead so far.

@ rogukiel - alot of favirotes did not make it in. downside of only 16 spots for 39 entrants.

Speaking of which... If the spots were so limited, how did Grimaldus make it? I mean, fluff wise the guy is amazing, rules wise on the other hand... Obviously a relic from fourth edition where HQs were not supposed to be almighty heroes. He doesn't stand up to any real 200ish point hq these days.

popularity? he barley made it in.... it was a 4 way tie for last spot, and grimaldus had 1 more vote at the end to squeak him in. weird, but thats how it happens with these things.

DarthSpader wrote:popularity? he barley made it in.... it was a 4 way tie for last spot, and grimaldus had 1 more vote at the end to squeak him in. weird, but thats how it happens with these things.

Old one eye should have gotten in *grumble*.

i still dont think Ghazy could beat Fateweave in a fight, i just think people are forgetting alot of rules, Like how fateweaver moves like jump infantry and ghazy is slow n purposefull, or that fate has 3 different spells he can do at range hitting on 2,s ghaz has his twin linked shoota...

If the battle remains ranged Fateweaver would rock, but even if it became melee, Fateweaver's attacks cause ID on a leadership test if you fail you die, on top of that he can also Use boom of mutation in the shooting phase to try and turn ghaz into a spawn, sure its only on a 6 up but Fateweaver could stay there a long long time with a 3++

sure he could also get shot once and run away but it is alot less likley then Ghaz failing a leadership test off his 5+ inv then Fateweaver failing his on a 3++ invul

Nightrave wrote:i still dont think Ghazy could beat Fateweave in a fight, i just think people are forgetting alot of rules, Like how fateweaver moves like jump infantry and ghazy is slow n purposefull, or that fate has 3 different spells he can do at range hitting on 2,s ghaz has his twin linked shoota...

If the battle remains ranged Fateweaver would rock, but even if it became melee, Fateweaver's attacks cause ID on a leadership test if you fail you die, on top of that he can also Use boom of mutation in the shooting phase to try and turn ghaz into a spawn, sure its only on a 6 up but Fateweaver could stay there a long long time with a 3++

sure he could also get shot once and run away but it is alot less likley then Ghaz failing a leadership test off his 5+ inv then Fateweaver failing his on a 3++ invul

Ghaz has eternal warrior, ID is meaningless.

boon of mutation is a replace with spawn thing. i dont think eternal warrior matters for that.

He's talking about a force weapon methinks, because ID on a leadership check is a force weapon if memory serves.

Fateweaver has a special rule called Soul devourer which counts him treated as a power weapon (meaningless, given his MC status) but also confers the ability that for ever wound he deals in close combat, the enemy model has to make a leadership save (Note, this leadership test is taken for each wound received... so two tests for two wounds) or suffer instant death.

I believe this is what he was talking about, not the boon of mutation. However, Kain is correct, that EW will negate this bonus effect.

And again, I agree with Nightrave. Like I said before, if Fateweaver can keep at range and not get caught up in Ghaz's WAAAAAGH! then he should be able to take it. But if it goes to melee, the sheer weight of Ghaz's attacks will most likely overwhelm Fateweaver.

Fateweaver has a 14% chance to turn Ghazghkull into a blob, while Thrakka has a 5% chance to make Fateweaver run away.

Fateweaver deals .44 wounds each round of combat and goes first, killing Thrakka after 9 rounds. Thrakka deals .30 wounds to Fateweaver per round of combat, killing him after 10 rounds.

Either one getting the charge does not change the outcome.
Each turn of Waagh! Increase the number of rounds it takes to kill Thrakka by 1.

The chance of boon doing nothing for 10 player turns (= five times) is 47%.
The chance of fateweaver not running after taking two wounds is 69%

Statistically Fateweaver would win.

Well the votes spoke, and Ghazzy takes this one. next up the Swarmlord facing off against Lysander.

my initial thoughts here: lysander has a thunder hammer and storm sheield, wich should counter nicley to the swarmlords MC status, however the bonesabers forcing rerolls on invuns might ruin lysanders day. i dont have a marine dex handy, is lysander EW? i know the swarmlord is not... but the psyker abilities might make up for it in the shooting phase, where lysander lacks. im not really the best at the mathhammer, so what are the numbers here?

Yeah, he's Eternal Warrior.
I've got to go with the Swarmlord.
4 attacks (5 on the charge) before Lysander, Preferred Enemy, Lysander will likely be WS 1 the first turn of combat and the invuls will be similar (3+ re-roll passes is about the same as a 4+)
Both are 2+ to wound.
After the first round, Swarmy needs a 3+ to hit, Lysander needs a 4+.

:O

is it just who gets the most votes wins?

And I'm thinking Swarmlord for this one. That dude is brutal in melee.

Swarmlord wins this one...he has more attacks, higher WS, more wounds, higher initiative, has psychic powers. Strength and toughness don't matter. A slightly better save (4++ is better than a 3++ with the reroll).

I'm also a bit confused as to how the winner is determined. If it's nothing but voting, why was there talk of a "24x24 board with average terrain"?

from what i understand it is based on a 24" x 24" battle

it comes down to most votes wins.

i figured that a description of the "battle field" will help people in visualizing the fight, and decide how it goes, then vote that way.

for example a larger table wound favor range and speed over slower models. and a smaller field would favor CC over ranged. a 24x24 allows for a pretty average scenario - wich i hope people consider, along with rules for each, and of course the statistical math hammer.

but yes, in the end its a voting popularity contest... as running an actual battle would be difficult.... unless every one entered a single character, and matchs where fought via vassal....

I've got to go with the Swarmlord here, as already said Lysander has no ranged attacks and the swarmlord at least has some psychic shooting. In combat the swarmlord strikes first, will probably have Lysander at weapon skill 1 for the first round because of Paroxysm and even after that Lysander is at a disadvantage in most areas and might as well be on par for toughness and strength thanks to his thunderhammer.

Crucially because he is rerolling his succesful invulnerable saves he has less chance of passing an invulnerable save then the swarmlord, which means that with the Swarmlords greater number of attacks and wounds he will outlast Lysander in most cases.

Lysanders is pretty cool though

Wait...where's the poll?

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

Don't be so cynical.

having fought both lysander and the swarm lord i think it is going to be the swarmlord. and i play space marines

G00fySmiley wrote:

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

If that were true, then the GK Captain should have won the generic deadliest warrior

The only thing holding the swarmlord back from deadliest close combat warrior ever in 40k is want for Eternal warrior and a relatively small number of attacks. If he had EW and say six attacks I think he'd be able to chew through most anything. As it stands, only Abaddon, Vect, Mephiston, and Draigo are really on his level, and maybe Ghazzy.

King Pariah wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

If that were true, then the GK Captain should have won the generic deadliest warrior

point.. but in nuber one ghazzy took it, i liek ghaz and am primarily an ork player but ghaz mathammer wise ghaz wouldn't have won that battle .. though its close so it comes down to the actual dice.. still i forsee lysander getting the vote but i hope i'm wrong and people take info accoutn that lysander would be bone(sworde)d

I think you should do 9 battles on 24"x24" board so that it doesn't boil down to some numpty going "______ IS DA BESTEST GUY EVAR!!!! I IS GONNA VOTE FOR HIM"

The Swarmlord has only one major weakness: no eternal warrior. Since every hit with the bonesabres causes instant death, any other SC he goes up against without EW will come down to who goes first, and he's got a wicked initiative.

I think Swarmy will mow down all his opponents until he meets someone else who causes ID, and is EW. Then he'll just pop in one hit :(

Where is the poll?

polls opened. a bit early, but im away from my comp untill late, so i would rather be a bit early then almost a day late.

kain: - this time 'round we get to discuss and theroy hammer in an attempt to "sway" the voters. makes for a slightly longer process, but hopefully elminitaes some of the "this guy is my fav so im voting for him even though he would loose" type of votes.

Doesn't Lysander have Init. 1 because of his thunder hammer anyway? And he has termy armour, so that's a 2+ and a 3++ save.

A save he has to reroll if successful due to the bone sabre's special rules.

i'm glad to see i am being proven wrong gladd to see people using their heads instead of just waying zomg speece marines rulez allzorz

Well, the Swarmlord beats Lysander in all relevant categories except strength, and as both are wounding one another on a two plus it's irrelevant. As for the invulnerable save, the Swarmlord's special rules will make his inv equal to it's own. Heck if the swarmlord starts out with paroxysm and leech essence Lysander would have pretty much no hope of winning.

Swarmlord takes this one with little issue. looks like the votes agreed with the discussion this time around. next up, imotekh and kharn.

hard to say on this one, since i dont play against kharn that often, but having played vrs imotekh on numerous occasions...he is a tough nut to bring down, if only because of his saves. weapon wise, the rerolls are nice, but lack of a power weapon makes him a bit lesser in the fight. (providing of course his lightning doesnt nuke kharn before he even moves)

does kharn have a power weapon, or just a crazy amount of attacks?

unlike the generic lord imotekh has not of the MSS... so that gives kharn an edge on the init side of things and that he gets all his attacks. tough call

Kharn zomg speece marines rulez allzorz

Well Kharn has 6 Attacks per combat that only miss on 1s. Then he's wounding on 4s which is 3 wounds of which 1 will be unsaved.

If Imotekh charges, He (Well, it) gets 4 Attacks, 3 will hit because of the GoF. Then he'll get 3 wonds again from the GoF of which 1 will fail.

Drawn combat

Even if Kharn charges it ultimately boils down to who has the most wounds.

DarthSpader wrote:Does kharn have a power weapon, or just a crazy amount of attacks?

Kharn's axe - Gorechild - counts as a power weapon. But Imotekh has a phase shifter, so he has 3++ anyway. Imotekh has a gauntlet of fire, which gives him re-rolls to wound and to hit.

Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

DeffDred wrote:

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

Let's call it a draw...

Kain wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

The thing that more or less decides who wins, and that we don't know anything about, is how much Khorne is propping up Khârn. Both Lucius and Typhus, the Slaanesh and Nurgle equivalent of Khârn, respectively, have recieved significant support from their Masters. Khârn as a Space Marine against the Swarmlord would probably be pretty one-sided, Khârn as the chosen Champion of Khorne against the Swarmlord is a more interesting fight, and my money would be on Khârn TBH.

That said, table-topwise the Swarmlord wins without breaking a sweat...

The thing is, Imotekh could probably shoot Kharn down. His Staff of the Destroyer is a powerful weapon (though short-ranged, and the Gauntlet of Fire has the possibility of doing damage (also, outside of the game, I highly doubt Imotekh would only use a single weapon whilst a blood-crazed mook is charging him)

Imotekh also has lightning. And a Phylactery. Unlike the game, fluff-wise the Necrons heal 99% of the time. The fight between Kahn and Obyron shows that they heal rather quickly, despite how slow their reflexes are. A Phylactery would only aid in that regeneration, or perhaps make it happen at a faster rate. Imotekh might not be able to dodge, but with the Phase Shifter and his ability to regenerate, Kharn would have a hell of a time killing Imotekh permanently.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeffDred wrote:

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

Let's call it a draw...

Kain wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

The thing that more or less decides who wins, and that we don't know anything about, is how much Khorne is propping up Khârn. Both Lucius and Typhus, the Slaanesh and Nurgle equivalent of Khârn, respectively, have recieved significant support from their Masters. Khârn as a Space Marine against the Swarmlord would probably be pretty one-sided, Khârn as the chosen Champion of Khorne against the Swarmlord is a more interesting fight, and my money would be on Khârn TBH.

That said, table-topwise the Swarmlord wins without breaking a sweat...

Kharn still can't get around the fact that he only has one melee useful weapon against the swarmlord's four. When a multiwielder faces a single wielder, the typical strategy is to block their weapon with one and then kill them with the other, which they can't defend against as their other weapon is occupied. The swarmlord could tie up each of Kharne's arms and still have enough boneswords to cut him into three pieces.

Fluff-wise, Imotekh would probably just regen every single hit and eventually beat Kharn, as McNinja has pointed out. This guy is about as impossible to beat in a 1v1 duel as it gets simply because he refuses to stay down. Of course, Imotekh wouldn't actually kill Kharn, just chop off a hand and let him go.

On the tabletop, hmm, bit tougher. Imotekh has lightning, which does need to get lucky but can instagib Kharn due to S 8 vs T 4(Kharn isn't Eternal Warrior, right?). Then there's Staff of the Destroyer, which could do a wound before the cc part, and of course the flamer on Imotekh's GoF(and the re-rolls as well). So there's some fun right there. Then a 3+ invul, a 5+ RP, and if he makes it he gets back up with D3 wounds to do it all over again.

Kharn is a pretty fun guy to be around, we all agree on that. He's got a plasma pistol for range, and Gorechild for melee, plus a ton of attacks, especially if he gets the charge. 3+ is nice and 5++ could be useful.

Here's the thing: For all intents and purposes they both have a 3+ save against everything except Staff of the Destroyer, which Kharn will have to rely on his 5++ to stop. Kharn hits easier, but Imotekh gets to re-roll all hits and wounds. Imotekh has a chance to get back up with full wounds, though without a rez orb with him it's only a 5+, but still a chance. Then he gets to keep rolling that 5+ every time he goes down and get back up with 1 wound after the first time.

In the end, both of these guys are pretty tough and have multiple ways to do some damage. I'm going to say Imotekh on this one, though, for two reasons: One, if the lightning gets lucky, Kharn goes down in one hit. Two, Imotekh has a chance to get back up with full wounds(and every single time he goes down after that with 1 wound) so Kharn has to essentially fight Imotekh over and over until Imotekh decides to stop rolling reanimation protocols. Hurray for Ever-Living.

We'll have to see how the mathhammer turns out if someone does it, should be interesting in any case though.

The other thing to consider us kharn strikes first, so he could in theory knock Imotekh down, then when he stands up, charge him again, knock him down, rinse repeat untill Imotekh fails that 5+ and with the number of attacks kharn can throw out on the charge Imotekh could very easy fail 3 of those 3+ saves. A lucky lightning strike or round of combat might make Imotekh win... But that init factor and number of attacks looks to favor kharn. Even though i prefer 'crons over chaos.

Voting opened. Closes Monday, Monday MONDAY!!! Vote now, now NOW!!


Sorry.... Bit of a monster truck moment ....

SoulGazer wrote:We'll have to see how the mathhammer turns out if someone does it, should be interesting in any case though.

I didn't math hammer it, because it was too hard... but I did simulation hammer it. 100,000 battles each time.

I stand by my earlier belief that fluff-wise, Kharn should win... however, my sims give:
- If no one charged, Imotekh won 53.65% of the time (with the fights lasting, on average, 3.85 rounds).
- If Kharn charged, it's more or less reversed, Kharn winning 53.04% of the time (with the fights lasting, on average, 3.56 rounds).
- If Imotekh charged, he wins a whopping 57.63% of the time (with fights lasting, on average, 3.64 rounds).

I'm voting Kharn, for the idea that he should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range, then his higher init and attacks should beat down Imotekh.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:I'm voting Kharn, for the idea that he should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range, then his higher init and attacks should beat down Imotekh.

While Imotekh does what? Stands there like a fething moron? Really? Imotekh is one of greatest tacticians in the galaxy, better than any marine. What in zeus's name makes you think Imotekh would let Kharn (a giant dude with a huge frekaing axe yelling his head off) just walk up to him? Keep in mind that Imotekh also has a flamer weapon, so Kharn would be surrounded by green fire most of the time he's running. Also that whole "Staff of the Destroyer" thing (S6 AP1 weapon) might put a bit of a damper on Kharn's charge.

I want Imotekh to win. DexKivuli probably didn't include the shooting phase, but if he did, Imotekh would win. Imotekh has more survivability and more ranged capabilities than Kharn (one Imotekh's ranged abilities can hit you anywhere on the board).

McNinja wrote: DexKivuli probably didn't include the shooting phase

Absolutely right, I didn't. The point I was trying to highlight is that on a purely rules based decision, close combat still favours Imotekh. Include shooting and it's even worse for the K-man.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Kharn should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range

Kharn? Use cover? Khorne would should smite you where you stand for even suggesting such a thing!!

Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I did the Mathhammer (Kinda) and Kharn always wounded Imotekh before he swung back. Combat is pretty much even other than Kharn swinging first. Plus which Imotekh's lightning will have 3/4 turns max to zap Kharn. I'm affraid I'm not very familiar with the SotD, but I know it is variable range meabing thet it might not even reach Kharn if he does get to shoot.

And on the wound front, it doesn't matter who charges because it is never capable of being rounded up.

people are just voting for Kharne because "Hurrdurr fun guy hurrdurr." I find him to be really quite overrated in close combat.

If Immotek is pulling a near even fight with Kharn, than I'm with you guys... It would pull things in his favor to what? About 70% victory? (Chance of lightning id, SotD, Gauntlet fire, etc vs... a Plasma Pistol. Kharne has a 5+ invuln save and a 3+ armour, so not much to hold onto compared to the 2+ / 3++ Immotekh is running.)

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I wonder if there should be two separate win conditions, one for popularity and one for simulation results. Just in case there are scenarios like the one you described(Or even this current situation). I wasn't around much for much of the character battles, sadly, but where there many instances like that?

The Crusader wrote:

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I did the Mathhammer (Kinda) and Kharn always wounded Imotekh before he swung back. Combat is pretty much even other than Kharn swinging first. Plus which Imotekh's lightning will have 3/4 turns max tozap Kharn. I'm affraid I'm not very familiar with the SotD, buI know it is variable range meabing thet it might not even reach Kharn if he does get to

And on the wound front, it doesn't matter who charges because it is never capable of being rounded up.

including imotekhs 3+ invuln save?


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SoulGazer wrote:

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I wonder if there should be two separate win conditions, one for popularity and one for simulation results. Just in case there are scenarios like the one you described(Or even this current situation). I wasn't around much for much of the character battles, sadly, but where there many instances like that?

not really, the ol v. Ht was the one I saw. This a deadliest character competition, so really how much you like a given character shouldn't matter all that much.

I did factor that in. Because of Imotekhs lake of a PW they're both using a 3+ save. They're both scoring the same amount of wounds as a result.

i think popularity did play in a few times, but for the most part the best one won. for this one, it was so close numbers wise i think the number of attacks kharn had saw him the day. and i agree with the theroy... throw enough attacks at that 2+/3+ and eventually it WILL go down and stay down. and a 5+ to get back up is not really reliable.

in any case, kharn moves on, and imotekh gets to return to his worlds generals duties. (i think both are happier this way)

next up, Vect takes on Eldrad in probally one of the longest running kin wars and grudge matches in the grimdark.

my thoughts here:

vect has Preferred enemy and gets to reroll hits and wounds vrs eldrad.. he has a power weapon that wounds on a 3+..he packs a 2+invun, he has orbs to deal some shooty damage.. and a mess of attacks.

eldrad... 4+invun, fewer attacks, but doom, fortune and some ranged psyker fun help him out. in the end though....i think vect has a slight edge..

oooht hats a tough match up...from a fluffy point of view eldrad would have saw it comming and wiped vect from existence, but vect does have some really interesting rules now does vect get to use the dais also?

Vect is *absurdly* destructive in close combat. I've seen him leave a trail of dead chaos space marines 1800 points long without losing a single wound. This is one of the few guys who can go toe to toe with abaddon and come out on top more often than not. There are codexes that lack *anything* that can even hold this guy down in close combat for much longer than a single turn. He takes it with ease.

Oh dear, the galaxies two ultimate mortals trolls are clashing... I'm not even getting a gut feeling on who to put my money on here... I have a feeling that mathhammer is going to give them both a 50/50 chance.

Vect should take this one pretty easily.

(deleted--wrong thread)

played a game today.. 2k vrs an eldar player with an eldrad fixation. he fielded a flying circus list, with 3 falcons, and some wave serpents eldrad and a council, plus a bunch of vypers and banshees. i used my venom list with vect on a raider and attached a squad of bloodbrides with shardnets in place of a blasterborn squad.

vect just completley owned the eldar. his unit accounted for 2 full gaurdian squads, 2 banshee squads (although those were only 6 men teams) and managed to take out eldrad and his seer council. by the end of the game i did loose all the brides, but vect was untouched. the fight that mattered was vect and 3 brides vrs eldrad 2 warlocks and a farseer, along with 5 gaurdians. (i had charged the gaurdians, killed most, they held and eldrad counter charged.) the fight did not go well. the brides dealt with the gaurdians easy peasy, and vect tore through the seer council like tissue paper. i didnt target eldrad at first (i was hoping to force a failed LD and sweep him) but he managed to make his check. after that though, vect just rolled eldrad. 5 attacks rerolling hits, and his 3+ wounds ended up with eldrad needing 4 invuns...at 4+ he failed 2 of them, then failed to do any damage at all. in return. vect finished the fight off next turn.

hitting on 3+ wounding on 3+ and rerolling fails... plus his high init, 2+ invun and whole mess of attacks makes Vect a straight up rock n roll curb stomper.

i think eldrads only chance is to stay at range and mindwar, eldrich storm, and win at the ranged fight. once things get to melee...even 4+ fortune invuns wont stop the pure wounding power of vects onslaught... however i will concede the dice rolled my way and not the eldars this game. mathhammer may proove me wrong.

Eldrad isn't really a CC fighter. He has a single attack that wounds at 2+ and ignores armor. Not very good. He's a midrange caster, that's it, but with a good save and the ability to re-roll it.

Well, it honestly sounds like your friend misplays Eldrad...

First off, he has a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 4+. That save should also be re-rollable (if it's not, then he's not doing it right, or has some pretty terrible luck with dice rolls) Second, note that Eldrad always wounds on a 2+. Yes, he has a lack of attacks, and vect is an absolute monster in combat... but I think you're not giving Eldrad much credit here.

There are also his own shooting attacks to consider. Mind War, can be deadly with a good dice roll, and has a decent range.

Another thing to consider is, if Vect ever does fail his 2+ invuln save, he will have next to no protection from Eldrad, where as Eldrad's save won't go away.

I say it's too close to call, personally.

Eldrad

He also misplayed Vect, who has 5 attacks base, 6 with the pistol and CCW. Minor compared to the non-fortuned 4++ Eldrad, but still missing one attack.

Then again, Eldrad also has 2 attacks. His staff may be a 2 handed weapon that ignores armor saves and wounds on a 2+, but he also has a pistol and a witchblade that he can use, allowing him to gain a bonus attack, seeing as how Vect will never use his armor until his shield is down, the armor ignoring property of the staff seems a little superfluous.

My feeble and half finished attempt at mathhammer.

Vect will take roughly 7 rounds to kill Eldrad through Fortune and the 3++.

Eldrad will do roughly .9 wounds to Vect per round before saves... My math could be horribly wrong, as I don't normally do the math hammer. And I don't want to have to factor in the chance that vect will fail his save and do all that calculation...

Vect is a monster at CC, Eldrad is a monster at support. And Vect has more wounds and more initiative, so even if Eldrad does get him down to his last wound, Vect still has that last chance to finish him first.

I'm going with Vect for this tournament.

i may have mistyped ...but when eldrad charged he had pretty much nothing else to do. he also was re rolling his saves, but he also did fail fortune twice during the game. bad time for 6's...

dont get me wrong, i like eldrad and eldar, and he's a cool SC...i just think Vect is scarier in CC.

There should be a double elimination, they killed each other option >_>

~Edit~ Just simmed it though, sadly looks like Vect takes Eldrad every round. Eldrad's only hope would be to bring Vect down with a lucky mind war before the fight started. Bummer.

~Edit again~ Didn't take into account certain things with the sim so I did a bit of math hammer by hand. Hoping I remembered all the special quirks of both sides in combat.

It looks interesting to say the least, and i am back on the "Too close to call" team. Here's what I found.

Vect deals a static half a wound per round (Just under anyways) to Eldrad after hits (Rerolls included), Wounds (Rerolls), and Eldrad Saves (More rerolls)

Eldrad however, deals only a measily .167 wounds per round to Vect while his shadowfield is up. Something to note though, once that shadow field goes down, Eldrad becomes the clear winner, as Vect's remaining armour is useless, and Eldrad walks away dealing a full wound per round to Vect.

In short, it looks like the longer these two remain locked in combat, the more the odds start to stack against Vect, as eventually he will fail that save. If it happens to be in the first round, it's over quick. If it's to a mind war roll before they even fully engage, Vect loses. If Eldrad whiffs his psychic tests, rolling triple sixes and losing fortune for a turn, Vect's damage ramps up for two full rounds.

On another note, will all these battles be done on 5th rules, or will the remaining battles that don't finish in time be done on 6th? (I'm voting 5th, to keep things balanced... some guys who lost already may have different results)

the SC version will remain on 5th rules to completion. a rule change halfway through would be unfair. however the next round, wich im thinking will be a vote in "
infantry squad" version will use 6th.

Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

polls opened.

King Pariah wrote:Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

Does that include the HQ character that goes with them?

i'd put my money on eldrad but really its another battle that doesn't end in a normal game... vect has to lose that save but when he does it is over.

less then a day left, vect taking the lead on this one.

also.... *bump*

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

Does that include the HQ character that goes with them?

A full Necron Royal Court is an obscene thing. Not sure what other entourage can take it.

SoulGazer wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

Does that include the HQ character that goes with them?

A full Necron Royal Court is an obscene thing. Not sure what other entourage can take it.

Damn, you caught me.

vect wins match 4. next, abbadon vrs grimaldus.

i dont really use grimaldus... but ive heard abbadon is just a beast. since im not familiar with eithers rules, ill sit my opinion out on this one.

Abbadon hands down, he is a CC monster.

Ran the mathhammer, Abaddon kicks the crap out of the G-man most of the time. I did lose the will to live around the 4 bonus attacks though. They're a pain in the butt to work out.

polls opened

I'm torn now. I suggested Grimmy but I know Failaddon will kick the crap out of him like 80% of the time...

Decisions, decisions...

I vote Eliphas the Inheritor

In all seriousness, this shouldn't even be a contest. Failbaddon the Armless will krump Grimmy like there's no tomorrow

As much as I love Grimaldus, he doesn't compare. He's a terrible unit. Abbaddon wins. Waay too much instant death for that 4+ invuln to hold off...

But he can get back up.... and if you allocate properly then he only take 1 wound to save. But even so, he certainly needs a buff.

last couple of hours.... looks like abbadon has this one well in hand.


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abbadon wins this one.

mephiston and sanguinor are next.

Any thoughts on this one? I think sanguinor might have a little edge due to his getting back up fun, but meph is also pretty hardcore as well.

I rather like the Sanguinor for this one.

Mathwise, the Sanguinor should take this. Transfixing Gaze doesn't affect him, and he can reroll all failed hits and wounds on Mephiston.

The more Mephiston uses his Psy powers, the greater chance he has of periling himself as well.

I'd have to give this to the Sanguinor, but it would be a loooong fight, thanks to them both having a 2+.

The Crusader wrote:But he can get back up.... and if you allocate properly then he only take 1 wound to save. But even so, he certainly needs a buff.

Little late but...

With Grimaldus, he only gets back up once, then he's done. He's not like Celestine or Thawn. If he was, it might be different.

As for Sanguinor vs Mephiston.

Sanguinor is meant to kill characters. It's what he does, and he does it rather well. I'm going to have to go with him on this one.

Amanax wrote:

The Crusader wrote:But he can get back up.... and if you allocate properly then he only take 1 wound to save. But even so, he certainly needs a buff.

Little late but...

With Grimaldus, he only gets back up once, then he's done. He's not like Celestine or Thawn. If he was, it might be different.

As for Sanguinor vs Mephiston.

Sanguinor is meant to kill characters. It's what he does, and he does it rather well. I'm going to have to go with him on this one.

Under 5th edition rules the Sanguinor and Mephy usually go toe to toe. Not much in it, but The Sanguinor does come out slightly on top overall.

I'm not sure about 6th edition rules now. I think anyone with a powerfist or thunderhammer in terminator armour could give The Sanguonor a good beating now that powerswords have been nerfed.

DarthOvious wrote:

Amanax wrote:

The Crusader wrote:But he can get back up.... and if you allocate properly then he only take 1 wound to save. But even so, he certainly needs a buff.

Little late but...

With Grimaldus, he only gets back up once, then he's done. He's not like Celestine or Thawn. If he was, it might be different.

As for Sanguinor vs Mephiston.

Sanguinor is meant to kill characters. It's what he does, and he does it rather well. I'm going to have to go with him on this one.

Under 5th edition rules the Sanguinor and Mephy usually go toe to toe. Not much in it, but The Sanguinor does come out slightly on top overall.

I'm not sure about 6th edition rules now. I think anyone with a powerfist or thunderhammer in terminator armour could give The Sanguonor a good beating now that powerswords have been nerfed.

Possibly, but these battles are taking place in fifth edition rules

The Sanguinor gets this one by the tip of its nose. It's kinda close but at the end of the day, the Sanguinor comes out on top.

Not so sure about Mephiston's rules, but I think the Sanguinor should get this one, considering he Needs 3's to hit, 3's to wound with 5 attacks, and gets to reroll all failed hits and wounds.
Also, Sanguinor is fluffwise meant to be the epitome of Blood-Angelness, so gonna have to vote for him.
Speaking of voting, is it just me or has the poll not gone up yet?

I'm curious why Lelith hesperax isn't in any of the listings, her rules means she's liable to have 8 attacks + on most of the people listed and offers no armour saves at an int 9 ws9 o.o

Sasa0mg wrote:I'm curious why Lelith hesperax isn't in any of the listings, her rules means she's liable to have 8 attacks + on most of the people listed and offers no armour saves at an int 9 ws9 o.o

I'm not too familiar with Lilith's stats, but isn't she only s3 t3?

If that's the case, some of the heavy hitters in here would be able to simply shrug most of her hits before even considering an invul save. If they start at range, a good shot may just kill her outright. That'd be my guess... still it's odd she's not up there.

she is but she does have a 4+ invuln and very few actual characters go beyond toughness 5 at best. for most there toughnss 4.

Thats hitting on 3's for most, 4's-5's for pretty much everyone running with about 8 attacks on average with no armour saves. If at least 3-4 connecting with wounds in a single turn, rather possible would make her enough to be pretty well positioned within the list I would have thought. Not to mention she counts as having a shard net and impaler which reduces her opponents attacks by 1 in the process.

So her profile without charging is 5 attacks +1 atk per difference in weapon skill, no saves allowed, -1 attack to enemey anda 4+ invuln at I9

xD has got to place her somewhere in that list

The reason why she's not up there is a) didn't get nominated or b) didn't get enough votes to participate in the deadliest character showdown.

yea check page one for all the nominated characters and their final talleys for making into the competetion.

as for polls, trying out a diffierent aspect then last round, that has a few days of discussion before hand to hash out the mathhammer and whatnot. will probally just default to opening poll right away for the next one, and perhaps just making the poll go for 5 days instead of 3. but for now, since this is how we started its how we shall finish.

(as a side note, yea lillith has a ton of attacks, but her low str means she wounds on 5+ with most things, 6+ on t5 or better, and has virtually no shot vrs MC. combined with her own t3, and no EW - she gets one shotted by pretty much just about everyone out there either by range or melee.)


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polls opened

only 4 votes so far...would like to see a few more votes on this one.

Voted Sanguinor.

Sanguinor wins this match,

next up, Draigo vrs Celestine!

let the debate begin...

This is a really interesting match up. On one hand you have draigo, mister beat stick himself. On the other, you have an initiative 7 character who doesn't reliably die.

Here's a question for you, because this makes a difference. ARe you just aiming to kill celestine once, or does she have unlimited turns to get back up?

she follows normal rules. so if she goes down, gets a chance to return, as often as needed. once that fails shes done. the same would apply to any other character with a chance to return to the fight. you dont win untill you win, and a win requires the other guy staying down.