stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Wraithseer as 2nd HQ.

While almost everybody here seems to be exited about Eldrad, I'll leave this sucker at home. Special IC's have a bad taste and if you don't want to piss off your opponent, do the same.

Razgriz22 wrote:I may have went over the line saying that Eldrad is the ONLY great HQ choice we have. The avatar is amazing as well but I never saw tooo many lists last edition with him in it. Hopefully there will be more in this edition.

A standard Farseer is a good buy as well but I always pick Eldrad over him unless the game is 1000 pts or less. If he goes up in price but gets even better then Im mostly ok with that. But if he stays the same or gets worse and he has a price increase.... that will just suck.

And yea some people say Eldrad is cheese.... but come on who doesnt like a liiiiitle cheese. Especially when xenos as a whole dont often get too much cheese.

I used the Avatar religiously in the last edition, he was almost always a wise point investment. This edition will probably see a bit of a drop in use because Eldrad is so much better now.

Smaller games I'll use a standard farseer. I'll often try to fit in some Phoenix Lords now and again because I've just always liked them. As has always been for me, the Autarch will continue to just be printed word in my codex.

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Khe-Loc wrote:

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Not sure. We will see more snipers who can down WL's pretty quickly.

The most effective footdar lists I was seeing at the end of 5th were like the one used by Reecius--in a nutshell:

Eldrad
Avatar
10 harlequins with kisses
1-2 units of fire dragons with firepike exarch
1-3 units of 10 DAs
5 rangers
3 jetbikes
sometimes a unit of up to 20 guardians with a platform
2 EML/BL wraithlords
squadron of 3 dual-SL warwalkers

I played variants of this list right at the end of 5th edition and found it worked pretty well.

Eldrad got a boost this edition in that psychic hoods are nerfed. Guide and fortune are your bread & butter with the list, and now you don't have to make all those chancy rolloffs to get them to work, even when you're right up with the enemy.

Also, getting the benefits of fearless from the Avatar while not having to take no-retreat wounds when you lose combat is huge for guardians who get caught in assault. I lost a lot of guardians and more than a few harlies that way.

The new rally rules are generally beneficial for Eldar when not fearless.No more watching those 9 guardians fall back off the table because they can't regroup. Units of 3 bikes or 3+warlock will now always be able to attempt to regroup as long as there's at least one left.

It's easier now for wraithlords and warwalkers to get cover, although it's only a 5+ save unless you have ruins.

6E vehicle damage allocation is generally beneficial for squadrons, both because of not losing immobilzed vehicles anymore and because of the way one walker has to be wrecked before the next closest one takes any damage at all.

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

3 guided dual-SL warwalkers get an expected 3 glances on AR12, just enough to wreck it unless it's the side of a battlewagon. No more shooting your entire army at that rhino and only blowing off the storm bolter.

Jetbikes that move 48" a turn? Since their major function is to grab last-minute objectives anyway, that makes them even better at their job.

Smash attack is a nice bonus for the avatar when fighting vehicles. I've seen him get bogged against dreads more than once.

The big nerf compared with the way footdar was in 5th is the change to veil of tears that makes it possible for everybody to shoot at harlequins all the time if they can see them. They were really vital as a counterattack/fire brigade unit that could remain mostly safe until the mid-endgame. Overwatch is also not real helpful for units with T3 and a 5+ save. Maybe there's something else in the Eldar list, or something in an ally list that can fill this role now. But if there is, I don't know what it is.

So, at 2000+, with two Primary Detachments, can we have two avatars now...? not sure if it is prudent, but Im curious.

wuestenfux wrote:

Khe-Loc wrote:

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Not sure. We will see more snipers who can down WL's pretty quickly.

Honestly I don´t think snipers are that much of a threat to wraithlords. Yeah sure, they wound them on a 4+, but usually you get your 3+ armour save against most of the sniper shots.

The death of wraithlords wer and always will be lascannons as they completely nullify their save and can handle their toughness easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gangrel767 wrote:So, at 2000+, with two Primary Detachments, can we have two avatars now...? not sure if it is prudent, but Im curious.

Isn´t the avatar an uinique model and there can always be only one?

I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

Khe-Loc wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

By that logic, I can run 2 Eldrads yes?

Each detachment imo is part of the army, so are limited by the overall limitations

kenshin620 wrote:

Khe-Loc wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

By that logic, I can run 2 Eldrads yes?

Each detachment imo is part of the army, so are limited by the overall limitations

Yeah... Seems much more logical that way

Well, for Special Characters it specifically says they are unique, and only one can be taken per army (PG 110 BRB), and an Army may have multiple detachments, but it is still one army, so no you couldn't have multiple Eldrads, but I do not see the same verbiage for the Avatar.

I just grabbed my codex and even on page 61, it does not say Unique, or your army may only contain one. At least I'm not seeing it in my book.

Another bonus for Eldar Rangers I just noticed--they can jump off of tall buildings unharmed.

The rules for battlements and ruins (pp 95 & 99) say that models can jump down from battlements or the upper floors of ruins in a single move if they take an impact test.

The impact test rules say (p95) that an impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Models with the move through cover rule automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. So Eldar Rangers, Scorpions with Karandas or an exarch with the right power (and SM scouts of all kinds and a couple other units) can jump down any distance unharmed.

Not sure if this applies to pathfinders or harlequins, though. My feeling is that the way the rule is written, ironically, pathfinders and harlequins might have to roll the impact test.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Another bonus for Eldar Rangers I just noticed--they can jump off of tall buildings unharmed.

The rules for battlements and ruins (pp 95 & 99) say that models can jump down from battlements or the upper floors of ruins in a single move if they take an impact test.

The impact test rules say (p95) that an impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Models with the move through cover rule automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. So Eldar Rangers, Scorpions with Karandas or an exarch with the right power (and SM scouts of all kinds and a couple other units) can jump down any distance unharmed.

Not sure if this applies to pathfinders or harlequins, though. My feeling is that the way the rule is written, ironically, pathfinders and harlequins might have to roll the impact test.

No, on p34 it states that the dangerous terrain ignoring effect of "move trough cover" does not work when jumping off buildings.

Dang, you're right (it's on page 40)

Too bad. I was looking forward to flying rangers. :O

Flavius Infernus wrote:Dang, you're right (it's on page 40)

Too bad. I was looking forward to flying rangers. :O

In the german version of the rulebook it´s on page 34 o.O

Whatever, I´m not sure if jumping out of buildings is the most efficient way to get your guys outta there

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Couple more thoughts.

While meltabombs are nice on fire dragons, you have to remember that they are Unwieldy so they strike at I1. Great against MC's, but you have to live long enough to use them. Pretty much any MC is going to kill off a couple before they get to go.

Also harlequins will get hit hard by overwatch on a large squad. Hopefully they will be charging a unit that is already in combat with a guardian squad, avatar, or wraithguard. You could also use scorpions as the same role, possibly with kharandras. High armor, less stealth but more armor. Worth a try at least.

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Yes, and I was skeptical about that too until I tried it. One mitigating factor is that, with so many targets around, FDs aren't always the highest priority. The other major factor is that it's really important to take the exarch with crack shot and a fire pike. The 24" effective range for a shot that hits on a 2+ means that the exarch actually does most of the vehicle killing, and the 4-5 other guys in the unit are just ablative wounds for him.

But the two BL wraithlords (Eldrad can fortune them both) and the Avatar's melta are still typically the things that take out AR14 vehicles, so the FDs are mostly about killing light vehicles and heavy infantry.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Yes, and I was skeptical about that too until I tried it. One mitigating factor is that, with so many targets around, FDs aren't always the highest priority. The other major factor is that it's really important to take the exarch with crack shot and a fire pike. The 24" effective range for a shot that hits on a 2+ means that the exarch actually does most of the vehicle killing, and the 4-5 other guys in the unit are just ablative wounds for him.

But the two BL wraithlords (Eldrad can fortune them both) and the Avatar's melta are still typically the things that take out AR14 vehicles, so the FDs are mostly about killing light vehicles and heavy infantry.

Okay, I understand, the FD's are not on top of the enemy's priority target schedule. I agree that an Exarch with the right weapon and upgrade is mandatory here.

racta wrote:Couple more thoughts.

While meltabombs are nice on fire dragons, you have to remember that they are Unwieldy so they strike at I1. Great against MC's, but you have to live long enough to use them. Pretty much any MC is going to kill off a couple before they get to go.

Also harlequins will get hit hard by overwatch on a large squad. Hopefully they will be charging a unit that is already in combat with a guardian squad, avatar, or wraithguard. You could also use scorpions as the same role, possibly with kharandras. High armor, less stealth but more armor. Worth a try at least.

Good point on the unwieldy meltabombs.

I just double-checked, and harlequins I guess do get their normal VoT 4+ cover saves against overwatch fire. I guess a unit of storm guardians with a conceal warlock would also get their 5+ cover.

But yeah, maybe scorpions with stealth from Karandas (especially if they can charge through cover) and move through cover and fortune would have the strongest defense against overwatch--not that overwatch is necessarily a huge thing, but it is a factor.

I don't really think that overwatch is going to affect harlequins very much.. even from something like a blob of lootaz. The shots are fired at BS1, and harlequins in area terrain have a 2+ cover save..

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Sounds pretty weird if you havn´t tried it, but it does work suprisingly well^^

I totally forgot about the cover save for harlequins during overwatch. A 4+ means the most you are really losing is 1 or 2. Not game breaking. Against 30 shoota boyz it might be more like 3-4, but you should be able to set up a better assault on them because of their footprint, preferably through cover for a high save.

Not that big of an issue unless your opponent is a master of rolling 6's.

One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

Presto wrote:One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

They all have flip belts.... which ignores terrain. They hit at initiative (unless enemy's wargear bring 'em down).

The Shadowseer gives the squad defensive 'nades too... don't forget that.

whembly wrote:

Presto wrote:One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

They all have flip belts.... which ignores terrain. They hit at initiative (unless enemy's wargear bring 'em down).

The Shadowseer gives the squad defensive 'nades too... don't forget that.

the rules in 6th are different than 5th... in 5th you lost Initiative if you had to take a test, which flip belts meant you didnt,

but in 6th, it doesnt matter if you take a test or not, only that you went thru a piece of difficult terrian...

Hallucination grenades count as assault grenades, and so long as the shadowseer with the hallucination grenade pack is alive, the entire unit counts as having them.

So without the shadowseer, the harlys would be int1 when assualting thru cover?

Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

Well, a footslogging Eldar army is an option, but keep in mind that there are 2 (from 3) deployments that will allow the enemy to deploy more than 30 or 40 inches away from you.

Falconlance wrote:Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

I do, but it makes me sad, i was hoping there is something i was missing. I plan on getting my first real 6th edition game this weekend(played some small practice skirmishes) and was hoping that wasnt the case. As i want to field two units of harlys but i only have one shadowseer, though i guess i could proxy one(assuming my oppo lets me).

There may be one solution... the 6th rules say that charges are resolved one at a time, rather than simoultaneously. If you initiate the charge with the unit of harlequins that has grenades first, and once that charge is resolved, initiate the charge with the next unit, the victims will already be engaged in combat.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but a jetseer council that gets "invisability" from another farseer would have a rerollable (with fortune) 2+ cover save^^ Imo that seems absurdly strong

I know the powers are random at all, but I think "invisability" will turn into one of the favored BRB power of us Eldar players...

I still think the most useful is Misfortune.

Rerolling all enemy saves is just so good for Eldar. It helps vs Termies and Marines so much. It basically turns Terminator Armor into Power Armor and Power Armor into Flak Armor.

Khe-Loc wrote:Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but a jetseer council that gets "invisability" from another farseer would have a rerollable (with fortune) 2+ cover save^^ Imo that seems absurdly strong

I know the powers are random at all, but I think "invisability" will turn into one of the favored BRB power of us Eldar players...

They are random, however farseers are allowed to buy up to 4 powers, and trade them all in for 4 rolls on the table, re-rolling doubles. You have a pretty good chance of getting any one particular spell; as good as Eldrad's chance anyway.

Yea, it all matters on how much points you want to spend to try and get the powers you want. The cheapest and most effective way to do that would be to buy doom guide mind war and eldritch storm. Thats a 140 pt farseer without even adding stones, warding or witnessing.

Razgriz22 wrote:Yea, it all matters on how much points you want to spend to try and get the powers you want. The cheapest and most effective way to do that would be to buy doom guide mind war and eldritch storm. Thats a 140 pt farseer without even adding stones, warding or witnessing.

Yup, thats not that bad, and I think that the new psychic powers will benefit Eldar greatly (at least some)

Maybe I am old fashioned but I just cant give up my good old fortune doom and guide :-P. But I do like some of te new ones. Maybe I'll just try them out in a few games. I like having Eldrad have the old powers for a double fortune per turn. It's just moooore decision to make on what to do with our seers!

It's going to be a fine line between getting the powers you want and not overspending on powers. Eldrad plus a 140 point farseer is a large investment of points for powers.

Presto wrote:

Falconlance wrote:Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

I do, but it makes me sad, i was hoping there is something i was missing. I plan on getting my first real 6th edition game this weekend(played some small practice skirmishes) and was hoping that wasnt the case. As i want to field two units of harlys but i only have one shadowseer, though i guess i could proxy one(assuming my oppo lets me).

Flip Belts specifically say "ignore difficult terrain." Isn't this saying that, for harlequins, it's like the difficult terrain is not even there?

racta wrote:It's going to be a fine line between getting the powers you want and not overspending on powers. Eldrad plus a 140 point farseer is a large investment of points for powers.

True... I think that some of the new powers are graet, but you can never be 100% sure to get that one you need... So it´s not only a high investment, it´s a risky high investment o.O

Quark wrote:

Presto wrote:

Falconlance wrote:Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

I do, but it makes me sad, i was hoping there is something i was missing. I plan on getting my first real 6th edition game this weekend(played some small practice skirmishes) and was hoping that wasnt the case. As i want to field two units of harlys but i only have one shadowseer, though i guess i could proxy one(assuming my oppo lets me).

Flip Belts specifically say "ignore difficult terrain." Isn't this saying that, for harlequins, it's like the difficult terrain is not even there?

Hasn't this been FAQ'ed? I certainly hope harlies get to ignore dangerous terrain. Realistically, whether they've have flip belts or not won't stop them from hitting their heads on a piece of scenery when charging through it.

Quark wrote:

Presto wrote:

Falconlance wrote:Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

I do, but it makes me sad, i was hoping there is something i was missing. I plan on getting my first real 6th edition game this weekend(played some small practice skirmishes) and was hoping that wasnt the case. As i want to field two units of harlys but i only have one shadowseer, though i guess i could proxy one(assuming my oppo lets me).

Flip Belts specifically say "ignore difficult terrain." Isn't this saying that, for harlequins, it's like the difficult terrain is not even there?

I had posed a question in YMDC a couple years ago regarding flip belts that explored how harlequins interact with difficult terrain, and pretty much every response was that "Ignore difficult terrain" = "automatically pass difficult terrain tests."

I proposed that perhaps when the rule says, "ignore," it literally means they ignore it entirely, they dont interact with it all and for harlequins the terrain piece does not even exist, for any purpose. This would mean that any terrain that was both difficult and dangerous would not affect harlequins, since it's difficult terrain (any other types of terrain or rules it has are irrelevent,) they are ignoring it. Everyone in the thread pretty much bit my head off right there.

It never says that you automatically pass DT tests, you're right, all it ever says is that you ignore the terrain, but you are going to have a hard time getting people to accept the interpretation that flip belts cause harlequins to ignore all rules associated with difficult terrain.

Falconlance wrote:

Quark wrote:

Presto wrote:

Falconlance wrote:Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.

I do, but it makes me sad, i was hoping there is something i was missing. I plan on getting my first real 6th edition game this weekend(played some small practice skirmishes) and was hoping that wasnt the case. As i want to field two units of harlys but i only have one shadowseer, though i guess i could proxy one(assuming my oppo lets me).

Flip Belts specifically say "ignore difficult terrain." Isn't this saying that, for harlequins, it's like the difficult terrain is not even there?

I had posed a question in YMDC a couple years ago regarding flip belts that explored how harlequins interact with difficult terrain, and pretty much every response was that "Ignore difficult terrain" = "automatically pass difficult terrain tests."

I proposed that perhaps when the rule says, "ignore," it literally means they ignore it entirely, they dont interact with it all and for harlequins the terrain piece does not even exist, for any purpose. This would mean that any terrain that was both difficult and dangerous would not affect harlequins, since it's difficult terrain (any other types of terrain or rules it has are irrelevent,) they are ignoring it. Everyone in the thread pretty much bit my head off right there.

It never says that you automatically pass DT tests, you're right, all it ever says is that you ignore the terrain, but you are going to have a hard time getting people to accept the interpretation that flip belts cause harlequins to ignore all rules associated with difficult terrain.

do they now need grenades?

If the masses are still only willing to accept the interpretation that "ignores difficult terrain" only means that they do not take difficult terrain tests, and not that they disregard ALL rules associated with moving through difficult terrain, then yes, they will need grenades.

Harlequins need grenades now. The initiative penalty now has nothing to do with difficult terrains tests, only what the models actually moved through.

I proposed that perhaps when the rule says, "ignore," it literally means they ignore it entirely, they dont interact with it all and for harlequins the terrain piece does not even exist, for any purpose. This would mean that any terrain that was both difficult and dangerous would not affect harlequins, since it's difficult terrain (any other types of terrain or rules it has are irrelevent,) they are ignoring it. Everyone in the thread pretty much bit my head off right there.

I wouldn't go that far. Dangerous terrain has its own effect and counts as difficult terrain. Ignoring difficult terrain wouldn't ignore the rest of the dangerous terrain effect.

DarknessEternal wrote:Harlequins need grenades now. The initiative penalty now has nothing to do with difficult terrains tests, only what the models actually moved through.

But if you ignore difficult terrain, why would you treat it as moving through difficult terrain?

Quark wrote:

I proposed that perhaps when the rule says, "ignore," it literally means they ignore it entirely, they dont interact with it all and for harlequins the terrain piece does not even exist, for any purpose. This would mean that any terrain that was both difficult and dangerous would not affect harlequins, since it's difficult terrain (any other types of terrain or rules it has are irrelevent,) they are ignoring it. Everyone in the thread pretty much bit my head off right there.

I wouldn't go that far. Dangerous terrain has its own effect and counts as difficult terrain. Ignoring difficult terrain wouldn't ignore the rest of the dangerous terrain effect.

DarknessEternal wrote:Harlequins need grenades now. The initiative penalty now has nothing to do with difficult terrains tests, only what the models actually moved through.

But if you ignore difficult terrain, why would you treat it as moving through difficult terrain?

In friendly and tourny that I've been in, we've played harlies that ignores difficult... (there's no "auto passing DT test", it never happens).

They do, however, must test for Dangerous.

But, YMMV.

whembly wrote:(there's no "auto passing DT test", it never happens).

Yeah, realized what I was saying after I had already submitted it. It's still on the early side here and I'm weaning myself off of coffee...

Falconlance wrote:If the masses are still only willing to accept the interpretation that "ignores difficult terrain" only means that they do not take difficult terrain tests, and not that they disregard ALL rules associated with moving through difficult terrain, then yes, they will need grenades.

beasts also "ignore difficult terrain" and unfortuneatly they need grenades

Quark wrote:
But if you ignore difficult terrain, why would you treat it as moving through difficult terrain?

The same way that Beasts ignore difficult terrain but still suffer the penalty from moving through it in assault to Initiative.

I started replying in your YDMC thread instead: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460805.page

question...

can warlocks use their destructor to overwatch...??? the second sentence of the power says, "used in the shooting phase instead of firing." ... is this a RAW or a RAI power...???

hawkology wrote:question...

can warlocks use their destructor to overwatch...??? the second sentence of the power says, "used in the shooting phase instead of firing." ... is this a RAW or a RAI power...???

They can Especially nasty in a seer council with lots of destructors^^

Anyone else notice how the Move Through Cover rule now makes the models that have it automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests? That should help Striking Scorpions a bit more.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Anyone else notice how the Move Through Cover rule now makes the models that have it automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests? That should help Striking Scorpions a bit more.

Yeah, but not being able to assault after outflanking kinda killed them :(

Gangrel767 wrote:Well, for Special Characters it specifically says they are unique, and only one can be taken per army (PG 110 BRB), and an Army may have multiple detachments, but it is still one army, so no you couldn't have multiple Eldrads, but I do not see the same verbiage for the Avatar.

I just grabbed my codex and even on page 61, it does not say Unique, or your army may only contain one. At least I'm not seeing it in my book.

Where on ANY of the characters does it say "unique" or "Special Character"
From your wording, since none of the entries in the codex specifically say unique or special character, that would mean at 2k we can have 4 Eldrads, this makes NO sense.

Obviously there needs to be a little common sense here, The Avatar is A construct, clearly stated in all fluff as being 1 per craftworld. 1 per craftworld would mean 1 per army.
Granted, I'll gladly play your dual avatar list in a home brew game, but to use your wording on it, I'm bringing dual Farsight Tau lists

Special characters automatically count as unique, and it specifically says in the avatar's entry that one army can only ever have a single avatar. Let's use a bit of common sense here shall we?

wuestenfux wrote:
While almost everybody here seems to be exited about Eldrad, I'll leave this sucker at home. Special IC's have a bad taste and if you don't want to piss off your opponent, do the same.

This is outmoded thinking going back to the days of opponent consent. The newer codices are full of special characters that change the way their armies work. They're much more commonly seen, at least here in the states, and I've never seen any disgruntlement over SCs. Creed is everywhere, Logan is everywhere, Draigo is everywhere. There's no reason not to have Eldrad too.

Well, being an old-fashioned person, I don't think Eldrad really fits with my Alaitoc theme.

Probably not? It depends on whether or not your Alaitoc Farseer possesses one of the few remaining gems that Eldrad split his consciousness into.

On the brightside, your Pathfinders and Rangers are more useful. =)

Thunderfrog wrote:Probably not? It depends on whether or not your Alaitoc Farseer possesses one of the few remaining gems that Eldrad split his consciousness into.

On the brightside, your Pathfinders and Rangers are more useful. =)

Ye, I've actually used the squads I have in some practice battles. Random, but when they do hit it's glorious.

Arschbombe wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
While almost everybody here seems to be exited about Eldrad, I'll leave this sucker at home. Special IC's have a bad taste and if you don't want to piss off your opponent, do the same.

This is outmoded thinking going back to the days of opponent consent. The newer codices are full of special characters that change the way their armies work. They're much more commonly seen, at least here in the states, and I've never seen any disgruntlement over SCs. Creed is everywhere, Logan is everywhere, Draigo is everywhere. There's no reason not to have Eldrad too.

I completely agree. They are in the codex for a reason.... TO USE. I have not had a single game where someone said anything about my special characters. Once some called my Eldrad a big pile of cheese. This was as he assaulted him with Land Raider filled with a bunch on terminators and Logan Grimnar. I just looked at him and laughed.

Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

Abu_Basha wrote:Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

The exarch gun is Assault 4 because it is two Assault 2 guns. You do not get Assault 8. Yes, the singing spear is still defined by the c odex.

pretre wrote:

Abu_Basha wrote:Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

The exarch gun is Assault 4 because it is two Assault 2 guns. You do not get Assault 8. Yes, the singing spear is still defined by the c odex.

Way for them to make the Singing Spear worth that 3 points.

So i tested out Falcons for the first time today. I am sad to say even after guiding and fortuning them I was not very impressed. The only nice part was that they carried a few troops. Maybe I need to try them in more games. Both of them were taken out by the same seargent with a meltabomb. That may have been to poor play on my part or good rolls on his part but either way they just weren't doing what I wanted them too. I'll give them another shot next game though just to verify. But like I said, The pulse lasers rarely hit and when they did they still needed a 4+ to glance/penn. Maybe I just had a bad experience? How has the falcon treated you in 6th?

On a second note, The jet council still rocks socks off if played right. Witchblades cant punch trough even rear armour with any kind of consistency but singing spears sure as heck do. I found them to be very useful at crushing rhinos and their cargo. They still draw a ton of shots and hold out well. I think I learned to not keep them in rapid fire range of bolters though. Enough shots will cause wounds. But they do draw a ton of heavy weapon fire away from my other units.

My fire dragons made their points back and much more from one round of shooting. They still rock :-) They only reason I actually enjoyed my falcons this game is because one took dragons.

Thus you find the inherent flaw in a Falcon.

It's a long range weapon platform. It's meant to always stay so far away that it isn't even in assault, but you find yourself tempted to give it people to carry.

In 5th this wasn't so bad. Fly one onto a far away or isolated objective with some troops in the back and fire away all game. In this edition the troops have to be out of the tank to be effective. I've used one in a couple games and found this loadout to be my favorite.

Falcon,

Pulse Laser and EML or BL.

Embark 6 Pathfinders or 4 Dark Reapers + Exarch.


Then, you fly the falcon and payload to whatever objective is the best choice within 48 or 36 inches from the enemy and go to town shooting.


Just an aside. Your Eldar tanks should never get assaulted unless it's an intended trade...(IE: You choose to fly behind a russ to explode it because it's worth trading the Falcon for in your situation.) Even if you have to fly 48 inches out and lose your shooting for a turn, it's just not worth losing a tank to a meltabomb.

Thunderfrog wrote:Thus you find the inherent flaw in a Falcon.

It's a long range weapon platform. It's meant to always stay so far away that it isn't even in assault, but you find yourself tempted to give it people to carry.

In 5th this wasn't so bad. Fly one onto a far away or isolated objective with some troops in the back and fire away all game. In this edition the troops have to be out of the tank to be effective. I've used one in a couple games and found this loadout to be my favorite.

Falcon,

Pulse Laser and EML or BL.

Embark 6 Pathfinders or 4 Dark Reapers + Exarch.


Then, you fly the falcon and payload to whatever objective is the best choice within 48 or 36 inches from the enemy and go to town shooting.


Just an aside. Your Eldar tanks should never get assaulted unless it's an intended trade...(IE: You choose to fly behind a russ to explode it because it's worth trading the Falcon for in your situation.) Even if you have to fly 48 inches out and lose your shooting for a turn, it's just not worth losing a tank to a meltabomb.

I never knew how much one meltabomb could do. We named that sergeant Rambo for the game. He nuked both falcons back to back. I was backed into a corner from the first turn do to my opponent stealing initiative and then having 2 solid drop pod placements to block me in as well. I also never realized what horrid things a meltabomb could do. Now I know. We both laughed out of the sheer hilarity of this lone man reaking havoc behind my lines. I then had eldrad throw his spear into Rambos face. That ended things. Sheesh.... Eldrad has to do everything.

You dont have your falcon guided then though?Wouldnt it just be more beneficial to take a bs4 wraithlord? Thats almost what I am leaning towards now. That and i like the lords better. Slowing building a solid Wraith army.

I try to avoid the trap of not doing anything that isn't fortuned or guided. BS 3 is unfortunate (lolpun), but you have three shots needing 4's and 4s vs AV12.

A wraithlord is nice too, but I feel like they need another type of babysitting altogether and to be fair, you were asking about Falcons and not whats better, Falcons or shooty Wraithlords.

I suppose you could take 4 Reapers, an Exarch, and Eldrad with Divination lore. Then you could Prescience both the Reapers and the Falcon for shooting purposes. (Or Rangers.. but the Eldar Longrifle is 36 inches and not 48 like the reapers.)

With your 3rd power you have a pretty good shot at either denying cover saves or granting a 4+ invul to either the tank or the shooters.

Even backed into a corner you should have been able to skim over whatever was in your way and get 48 inches away from the baddies. He also can't throw melta bombs, nor assault on turn 1, so you COULD have avoided losing them both.

Lastly, as to wraithlords, I love them this edition. There's something about calling out that Sergeant with a Power Fist and smooshing him to paste before he can strike you back. On the other end of the spectrum, the sergeant dips the challenge and you smash some marines with impunity. I suppose the only issue would be a squad which every model is equipped with bombs.

My current WiP is 6 Wraithlords, 4 stabby with just a Shuriken Cannon and a Sword, and 2 shooting with EML/BL.

Thunderfrog wrote:I try to avoid the trap of not doing anything that isn't fortuned or guided. BS 3 is unfortunate (lolpun), but you have three shots needing 4's and 4s vs AV12.

A wraithlord is nice too, but I feel like they need another type of babysitting altogether and to be fair, you were asking about Falcons and not whats better, Falcons or shooty Wraithlords.

I suppose you could take 4 Reapers, an Exarch, and Eldrad with Divination lore. Then you could Prescience both the Reapers and the Falcon for shooting purposes. (Or Rangers.. but the Eldar Longrifle is 36 inches and not 48 like the reapers.)

With your 3rd power you have a pretty good shot at either denying cover saves or granting a 4+ invul to either the tank or the shooters.

Even backed into a corner you should have been able to skim over whatever was in your way and get 48 inches away from the baddies. He also can't throw melta bombs, nor assault on turn 1, so you COULD have avoided losing them both.

Lastly, as to wraithlords, I love them this edition. There's something about calling out that Sergeant with a Power Fist and smooshing him to paste before he can strike you back. On the other end of the spectrum, the sergeant dips the challenge and you smash some marines with impunity. I suppose the only issue would be a squad which every model is equipped with bombs.

My current WiP is 6 Wraithlords, 4 stabby with just a Shuriken Cannon and a Sword, and 2 shooting with EML/BL.

And you are going to do that at 2000 points i assume to Take advantage of the Dual FOC at that point level? That would be sweet. At 2000 points I would still take advantage of the FOC but slightly different. 3 lords, a group of 3 walkers, eldrad, avatar, and the wraithseer if my opponent agrees. But I may come up with a list that take less wraithguard at 2000 pts and leave more room for wraithguard.


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and that Uber gunboat with reapers, falcon, and eldrad sounds incredibly shooty, and very awesome. Never thought of that.


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My 2 optional 2000 pt lists around breaking the double FOC are

If Forgeworld isn't usable..

Eldrad, Avatar, 10 WG's w/ Spiritseer, 6 rangers, 5 rangers, 5 rangers, 6x Wraithlord w/ EML & BL.

If Forgeworld is usable...

Eldrad, Avatar, Wraithseer w/ Dcannon, 10 WG's w/ spiritseer, 5 rangers, 5 rangers, 3x Wraitlord w/ EML & BL, 3x Wraithlord w/ Sword & SL.

A point of note...Eldrad doesn't have a spear. He has a staff. Which cannot be thrown. The only things he can do range wise are Shuriken Pistol, Mind War, and Eldritch Storm. Or other spells from the main rule book if you decide to swap spells.

As far as Falcon Grav Tanks go, I haven't really been impressed with them ever. I don't like that it has such an average Ballistic Skill considering the descriptions of most ranged Eldar technology has them painted with super high tech targetters and range finders and all that other stuff.

In my opinion you are paying WAY too many points for a weapon platform that doesn't have enough shots to warrant the cost of the platform. Especially considering how average the BS is.

To get them to shoot better you have to add a farseer. And now the cost just skyrocketed up so far that it really isn't worth it. Especially now that Holo Fields are worthless.

In 6th edition vehicles can't end their movement within 18" of anything with a krak grenade, meltabomb, EMP grenade, haywire grenade, or str5+ anymore.

You will need to give up shooting to do this a lot of the time, but moving 12" away from infantry in order to keep firing will just get your tank blown up. You gotta go the whole 30".

I recently killed two ghost arks with a unit of 6 fire warriors (EMP grenades). From my perspective it was clear to me that my necron opponent needed to flat-out those ghost arks away from me or I was going to nail them. But he wanted to move 6" and shoot my fire warriors, which he did, and the fire warriors made their armor saves and killed the arks.

It's clear to me that when I pick up mech Eldar again for 6th edition, there's going to have to be even more zooming around than usual.

After Re-reading the codex, I realized eldrads staff isn't counted as a singing spear. Thank you for pointing that out. For some reason I thought it read something along the lines of "count as singing spear with XYZ extra stuff"

I will also take all the warnings of not gettng near ANYONE with a tank in fear of the grenades that wreck stuff now. Also another reason Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Razgriz22 wrote:Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Grenades work on Wraithlords too. Which isn't saying much as they're easier to kill than the tanks from shooting anyway.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Grenades work on Wraithlords too. Which isn't saying much as they're easier to kill than the tanks from shooting anyway.

I know grenades work on wraithlords as well. But they have 3 wounds. And T8 makes them pretty hard to hurt unless you are using your anti tank shots to hit them.

I am in confusion though about your second statement. They are easier to kill then tanks? I dont believe that.

When you shoot at the lord he gets a 3+ save unless it gets penetrated. The tank only gets a jink save. And only if it moves. The tank has a chance of receiving a penetrating hit and the roll on the chart can result in an explosion even if it still has 2 other hull points. With AP1 recieving a +2 and AP2 getting +1 there is a better chance that can happen. AP1 AP2 and AP3 all mean the same thing to the lord, he doesnt get his armour save. There is no chance of an instakill. If any gun gets to the tanks rear armour then it can even be damaged by S4 guns or attacks. The Lord cant be damaged by anything less then S5. The difference is pretty minimal. But when the tank would be getting glanced to death by S6 shots the Lord would be making most of its Armour saves. Thats just how I see it.

When was the last time you were allowed a save on a Wraithlord? For me it was 3rd edition and people hadn't switched armies yet.

MCs and vehicles are much closer in terms of durability now. Missiles and Lascannons need 4+ and 3+ respectively to damage both Wraithlords and Falcons, they both get 5++ saves (the Falcon just has to shuffle slightly to get it and there is no downside, the Lord has to hug cover) as anything you shoot at a Lord is going to be ignoring its save most of the time. The Falcon is also more durable against lower S weaponry, which can't do any damage at all against it but at least forces some saves on the Lord.

In terms of offensive power they are fairly similar, but the lack of mobility and the need to babysit the Lord is a pain. The most common loadout for a Falcon now is probably going to be naked with a Missile Launcher, which works out as 135 points for 3 S8 shots (2 of which are AP2), so 1.5 S8 hits per turn. Wraithlords are 155pts for 2 S8 shots, so 1.33 S8 hits per turn but with 12" less range (on one of the shots).

So essentially for 20 points less you lose some sub par assault ability and that's about it. Instead you end up with better damage output (both average and maximum), longer range, transport ability and better mobility on a more mobile platform which is just as durable.

Every gun on the board doesnt have AP3. So yes obviously the heavy rounds are going to be fired at the Lord. That means less heavy rounds being fired at other things. Its going to be a shot magnet. Which is great. In a list where you take 1 Lord you probably have 2 others. And Maybe even an avatar. Taking them all out fast enough will he hard. Stick them to some form of cover and that will help a lot. Not saying they are leagues better then a Falcon. They are probably pretty comparable. I just personally like the model better. But I will continue to try to figure out the best way to use a falcon in my games as well.

Powerguy wrote:MCs and vehicles are much closer in terms of durability now. Missiles and Lascannons need 4+ and 3+ respectively to damage both Wraithlords and Falcons, they both get 5++ saves (the Falcon just has to shuffle slightly to get it and there is no downside, the Lord has to hug cover) as anything you shoot at a Lord is going to be ignoring its save most of the time. The Falcon is also more durable against lower S weaponry, which can't do any damage at all against it but at least forces some saves on the Lord.

In terms of offensive power they are fairly similar, but the lack of mobility and the need to babysit the Lord is a pain. The most common loadout for a Falcon now is probably going to be naked with a Missile Launcher, which works out as 135 points for 3 S8 shots (2 of which are AP2), so 1.5 S8 hits per turn. Wraithlords are 155pts for 2 S8 shots, so 1.33 S8 hits per turn but with 12" less range (on one of the shots).

So essentially for 20 points less you lose some sub par assault ability and that's about it. Instead you end up with better damage output (both average and maximum), longer range, transport ability and better mobility on a more mobile platform which is just as durable.

Wraithlords have cc potential and dual flamers. The latter are great if the enemy outflanks (hello Genestealers) close to your front ranks.

Is 20 points worth one kill per turn in assault, in exchange for significantly reduced abilities in a number of other areas?

Assault based outflankers really aren't anywhere near as much of a threat to any kind of mobile army now since you always get to react to them before they can do anything.

Powerguy wrote:Is 20 points worth one kill per turn in assault, in exchange for significantly reduced abilities in a number of other areas?

Assault based outflankers really aren't anywhere near as much of a threat to any kind of mobile army now since you always get to react to them before they can do anything.

Before they can do anything? Well, shooty outflankers can still be a threat. And Genestealer? What else should they do other than infiltrating or outflanking?

Of course shooting based outflankers can be effective, but most of those tend to require weapons stronger than flamers to deal with (i.e they are MEQ and/or vehicles).

There is a big difference between infiltrating and outflanking. Infiltrating Stealers are going to be out in front of your army and your heavy hitters will be screened by less important units. Outflanking Stealers probably arrive behind you, but they show up in a randomised location and can't do anything for a turn.

Well, if the enemy, Nids, plays with several infiltrating Genestealers, they can put pressure upon your army. Combine this with some fast moving bugs and you eventually get in trouble. Mech would be the best solution here. But fully mech lost an edge in the 6th.