Obviously this is jumping the gun, but I'm tired of forcing Excel to do something it doesn't want to. So figured I'd take a shot at looking at Eldar based off the rumors I've seen. As an eldar player I can't say I'm particular happy. Eldar getting hit with some significant nerfs and only gaining a couple items. That being said I expect to see a lot more eldar on the table or more specifically, Eldrad and a unit of rangers in other armies.
Pros:
Rangers get to choose the targets for their AP1 shots
Hull points make killing Armour 12 vehicles fairly easy. We have a plethora of S6 weapons that can glance them easily alot. A unit of guided walkers will kill a a12 vehicle in 1 round
Some rumors seem to imply you can snapfire while turboboosting vehicles, depending on timing this could be useful.
Allies (sort of). A couple units of Grey hunters could really improve our durability, hydras could help with enemy plans, a rerolling showfield archon could provide a solid punch. However I think eldar will tend to be called upon as allies more than being the main force.
Warp spiders improve. They now get 3 attacks on the charge thanks to the impact hits.
Howling Banshees can be S4 if you can find enough of the old models with axes. Their mask ignores the unwieldy rule in round 1.
You can shoot and gain the extra movement from fleet.
Jink save for vehicles (and bikes?)
Wraithlords gan give up 1 attack to have a S20 smash attack (guessing capped at 10 so really only affects the avatar)
Meltaguns get +2 AP (do fire dragons need it?)
Cons:
Hull points make holofields worthless.
Everyone (almost) can get runes of warding
We lose our speed advantage, fleet goes from D6 extra to rerolling a D6. Not sure the math but this an inch or two difference.
Everyone gets 6+ save vs doom
Jink save not as good as turbosave
3+ to hit vehicles in combat regardless of speed moved
Everyone else can throw grenedes (ok we can to but few units have grenedes)
Everyone gains move and fire rapid fire full distance
Cover saves reduced to 5+
Overwatch hurts our assaulting units as they are only T3
Everyone else gets access to a bunch of new psychic powers
Flyers, unless you play with Forgeworld we have no anti-aircraft weapons
Power weapons are AP 3, so the only things that punch threw termintor armour are fire dragons and scorpion claws
Clearly this mostly speculation at this point but what do see in the Eldar's future?
As an Eldar player the only allies I will ever bring will be dark eldar. Grey Hunters and IG can suck it Im not bringing them.
As far as your actual post you made alot of valid points that I havent really thought of. Your compleatly right about holo fields. Generals of imperium armies getting runes of warding is an absolute load of crap, thats such a joke. You basically take the best part of eldar and give it to already overpowered armies. GW can suck it.
3+ to hit vehicles in close combat regardless of speed moved? Where did you hear that? If that is in fact true MechDar is dead.
One thing that will be interesting is Dark Eldar Allies, if we can bring alot of good units that should be alot of fun.
I think Footdar is going to see a huge increase in players. With all the S6 it can pump out and the lowered durability and points effectiveness of our own vehicles, it sounds like a tempting way to go. Although, we won't really know for sure until we've played with the new rules, so we'll see.
Smitty- I had to put the good ally options in my post even though I agree they shouldn't be taken often. Frankly neither should the dark eldar unless you have a bunch of harlequins. But a corsair style list will be viable, but pribably better with DE as base.
As for the imperium getting runes, don't worry I'm sure the Faq will change them so the only have a 6" range (not a rumor, just bitter)
Dok- If you can assault out of vehicles that is a plus, I haven't seen that rumor. Swooping hawks do get better (I forgot to put that on) however their intercept power is now useless as you never need more than a 3+ to hit. Although if they change the power to allow swooping hawks to hit flyers that would be a major buff. I also forgot about the witchblade change which is fairly major for some builds.
Mandolor- Footdar aren't shafted like mechdar but still take some fairly major hits as a result of lower cover, snapfire hurts more than it helps I think and most importantly I think you will see a lot more foot based lists resulting in meta more geared to killing foot troops
There are a few excellent points here I would like to +1
Dok wrote:Secondly, I want to talk about the benefits that will affect Eldar players who play serpent spam or something similar. Jetbikes/skimmers now have a 5+ cover if they move at all. It’s called Jink (My early edition Dark Angels Brethren may remember this fondly). This is a pretty excellent survivability addition to the already excellent wave serpent. Also, we basically get flickerfields for free
This is a very nice upgrade added to wave serpents for basically free.
Dok wrote:While hull points hurt serpents, this increases their durability by 33%.
By far, the most interesting change to vehicles (imo) is the ability to move 6”, disembark your troops (Banshees), and then still be able to move and Assault! Again, fleet has been a little nerfed, but you have a threat range of 14-24” out of a serpent
This is also very nice. Basically it gives all Eldar serpents assault ramps -- which is a very nice perk! You can use it to assault with your warlocks or your banshees. While banshees will now bounce off terminators, they can clobber the hell out of a lot of other targets. As mentioned, you an replace them all with power axes for STR 4 smash factor -- making them much more in line with DCAs.
Dok wrote:Pathfinders (any models with sniper weapons?) select their targets on a 6, also they will be ap1
Pathfinders get either AP1 or Rending often. The ability to select their targets mean you can quickly neutralize heavy/special weapons or special characters such as IG commissars.
Here are some other points.
* DE and Eldar have some nice synergy. Autoarchs and webway portals, for example. DE venoms combined with fire dragons.
* Moving 12" and firing 2 weapons for serpents mean that serpents are getting 7 STR 6 shots a turn. Since you now can burn down hull points, thats more of a threat than it used to be.
* If what I read is correct, all skimmers can move 30" -- which means your getting star engines for free.
From what I've read online (don't have the book yet), it actually appears more the Avengers and Dragons are useful.
I keep looking at 10 Warp Spiders (w/ Exarch and Powerblades) w/ Autarch (Warp Jump Generator, Powerweapon, Manditblaser, Power Wpn). If you cast Doom on whatever unit they plan to attack, they are extremely useful.
I'm not clear how rending works now, but I've read that is has gone back to 4th edition; roll a '6' to hit and it autowounds and is AP2. If this is the case, Harlies can be a fantastic counterassault unit.
How do Witchblades work now? I read AP3 and S7-this would really make a Seer Council even more useful; still can tarpit, but actually do some damage in return.
S6 shooting appears to be even more effective against armor 11 and 12. With only 2-3 hull points, we can effectively glance vehicles to death. I can fully expect 3 War Walkers w/ Scatterlasers to pop Rhinos/Chimera chasis in a single volley.
With allies (not a fan at all of this), DE (brothers in arms) can create some absolutely crazy combos: Fortuned Shadowfields sitting in Seer Councils/Wraithguard units; Fortuned Beastmaster squads (would an Avatar make them Fearless.....?)
On one hand, I really don't like the allies system. On the other hand, it opens up a whole new batch of Jes Goodwin designed models (Dark Eldar, in my case).
AP 3 witchblades would be cool, the rumors I've seen have them as poisoned (2+) S3, AP4 2D6 vs vehicles. As someone pointed out Fortune/Guide only works on Eldar units (unless FAQ'ed). So maybe you won't see them everywhere. (who am I kidding, you'll see them with Doom and runes, you just might not see Eldrad everywhere.
On a more positive note, what units that don't see much play do you think will get on the board more often? I'm definitely thinking Hawks and Spiders, maybe Dark Reapers too? If people do indeed start taking less transports then they become so much deadlier vs MEQ.
I think you see a lot more 2 HQ eldar armies out there and all of them have benefits, including the phoenix lords now that power weapons are AP3.
Hawks and Spiders will see more table tops but are still too expensive. They are better and if intercept is change to work vs flyers, they will be a near mandatory requirement. Spiders were underrated before and this will get more people trying them out.
Banshees and Scorpions coming out of an allied webway portal could be fun
Nightspinners are better.
I still don't see a place for guardians (any variety), shining spears or vypers.
That's because Guardians, Shinign Spears and Vypers need to be updated terribly. The changes are quick and easy IMHO, but they need it.
Guardians - give them 18" shuriken catapults... come on.. or a +1 BS on the platform?
Shining Spears - Inv save? or more importantly... a pistol! they have an awesome one handed cc weapon but no pistol... LAME
Vypers - Just plain too expensive... but maybe not with these new skimmer rules and such. scout or outflanking would be awesome though...
Personally I'm worried about anti-TEQ - I mean Banshees have been THE TEQ slayer for the Eldar since their invention, now they are really effective MEQ killers... So now we shoot Termies... or charge them with Harlequins (if rending is ap2)
Gangrel767 wrote:
Personally I'm worried about anti-TEQ - I mean Banshees have been THE TEQ slayer for the Eldar since their invention, now they are really effective MEQ killers... So now we shoot Termies... or charge them with Harlequins (if rending is ap2)
Agreed. We need Starcannons to drop in points a little, that'd be a start
With overwatch, probably nobody's going to want to charge a unit of 20 guardians.
If it's true that AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, Wraithcannons, brightlances and pulse lasers (and starcannons) all get an antitank bonus.
Depending on how artillery rules have been changed, batteries of dirt-cheap shadow weaver shots, with the whole template now str6 against vehicles, might become a decent choice again.
Even though they're expensive, starcannons might become the go-to gun again for taking down terminators.
steinerp wrote:Dok- If you can assault out of vehicles that is a plus, I haven't seen that rumor. Swooping hawks do get better (I forgot to put that on) however their intercept power is now useless as you never need more than a 3+ to hit. Although if they change the power to allow swooping hawks to hit flyers that would be a major buff. I also forgot about the witchblade change which is fairly major for some builds.
You are correct sir. I had missed the ws1 on vehicles thing. I would imagine JI would be able to assault flyers, but I haven't heard anything specific to that. The witchblade change is sad. But, a council with multiple destructors will be a very scary thing to charge.
labmouse42 wrote:There are a few excellent points here I would like to +1
labmouse42 wrote:
By far, the most interesting change to vehicles (imo) is the ability to move 6”, disembark your troops (Banshees), and then still be able to move and Assault! Again, fleet has been a little nerfed, but you have a threat range of 14-24” out of a serpent. This is also very nice. Basically it gives all Eldar serpents assault ramps -- which is a very nice perk! You can use it to assault with your warlocks or your banshees. While banshees will now bounce off terminators, they can clobber the hell out of a lot of other targets. As mentioned, you an replace them all with power axes for STR 4 smash factor -- making them much more in line with DCAs.
you cannot assault after you get out of a transport. So you can move 6", disembark 6" but then you cannot assault. Lame and poorly worded.
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Flavius Infernus wrote:With overwatch, probably nobody's going to want to charge a unit of 20 guardians.
no one with a 5+ save. Unless you get the shoot at normal BS psykic power 20 guardians are going to get ~6.8 hits ~3.4 and ~1.1 dead Meq.
Flavius Infernus wrote:
If it's true that AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, Wraithcannons, brightlances and pulse lasers (and starcannons) all get an antitank bonus.
the new damage talbe is more favorable, only destroying a vehicle on a 6 instead of a 5 or 6 so bright lances are just as effective(or ineffective) as they use to be.
If fast vehicles can move 12" and fire 2 guns at full BS, then the Falcon can be used as a gunboat. For 130 points you can get a scatter laser and the pulse laser.
If you do not want to have DE allies in a fragile AV 10 vehicle, you can stick them in these falcons giving them better protection.
Edit : I heard someone say allies cannot ride in transports. Not sure if they applies to falcons. If it does -- well poop.
Quark- Haven't seen that, if true nightspinner is still probably better overall but not by as much
Also one rumor I saw from someone with a book is that you can now only keep 1/2 army in reserve, this is a big problem as shortening the game was key to some builds
labmouse42 wrote:If fast vehicles can move 12" and fire 2 guns at full BS, then the Falcon can be used as a gunboat. For 130 points you can get a scatter laser and the pulse laser.
If you do not want to have DE allies in a fragile AV 10 vehicle, you can stick them in these falcons giving them better protection.
Edit : I heard someone say allies cannot ride in transports. Not sure if they applies to falcons. If it does -- well poop.
depends on what kind of ally i think
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steinerp wrote:+1 as well especially since Eldar typically won't have aceess to the full BS power unless they run two farseers
warlocks have powers. run lots of them in a council and have them swap their powers. The full BS power is random though, you have to roll a 1 on the divination chart.
If Jetbikes get Hammer of Wrath.... I can see the Shining Spears being awesome. Give them their +1 A they have been missing... then they can really hit and run!
I have some hopes for Eldar FAQ, for instance:
Pathfinders will be able to allocate wounds on 5+.
SH Intercept will allow hitting the fliers on 4+.
Let's not kid ourselves, there will be no major changes to Guardians or Dire Avengers.
It's too bad that there are no good bonuses that we can share between battle brothers. Fortune / guide are Eldar only. Markerlights are Tau only. Can DE give us anything?
IoM can easily benefit from our RoW, Vulkan, Sang Priests, OotF etc.
[I don't want to go on a whinefest, but it doesn't look good people. Of course nothing can compare to Tyranids and their allies. If there is no balancing factor GW really, really dropped the ball there. I won't be mentioning them but I really want to hug the bug players]
I feel like all troops in other armies are getting some kind of boost: no-retreat gone is huge for orks and a nice bonus for SMs, rapid fire for everybody bar Orks. Our already not so great troops gained nothing from general rules. Mechdar gets with 3+ to hit in CC. In shooting Jinx balances itself nicely with HP, at least I think it does, but Warwalkers will die a bit too fast.
Rangers are cool addition but nothing spectacular. 10 will get 2 sixes (let's be generous), one of those will wound and there is still 4+ Look Out Sir and possible cover. 50% from 190 point unit is not that great.
This isn't the end of the world (for mechdar it may be), but it won't get any easier.
The one good thing from vehicle nerf is that in our next book we may get a significant discount on vehicles.
I agree, I really do love my Eldar, but 6th looks like it's going to hit them hard.
The OP's summed it up excellently, but what I'm most off about is that everyone else is gaining our traits - the things that made Eldar Eldar.
Firstly, with this whole new Flier-Craze, and rumours about more coming out, everyone else will have fast vehicles. Secondly, everyone else is getting Shiny New Psychic Powers, which are probably going to be very good. It also annoys me that Eldar, probably the most potent psykers in the galaxy, have access to only 2 of these New Disciplines, where as the Space Marines, the pathetic human beings whose minds are so weak and easily corrupted that their largest threat is themselves, get access to all 5 *spits on ground*. Finally, and what really, really, makes me mad is this whole Allies system. Many people will, as the OP says, take a Farseer (or Eldrad, if it's allowed) and some Rangers/other stuff, but will never actually use Eldar armies. It's disgraceful. Then there's all the other stuff, like nerfs on Vehicles, Rapid Fire being improved, Fleet being nerfed etc, etc, etc, etc, etc
Yeah, I guess there's a few hopes. It'd be nice to possibly be able to field Warp Spiders and Shining Spears, Rangers get a cool boost, and who knows, maybe FootDar will begin to reign supreme. And hey, maybe the Erratas will rectify Holofields and all the other stuff that's been stomped by the Marine-Shaped Boot of GW. And the biggest light of hope is the possibility/rumours of a new codex in early 2013. And, I tell you, it better make the Eldar able to crush entire units with Psychic might, or zoom across the battlefield in a turn, to cancel out all these nerfs we've been dealt.
So, you may find me OTT, but I really do love the Eldar and, although I will keep playing them, I hate to lose the comfort and power I've felt with using them these past few years. And if it doesn't work out, I'll possibly just slink back into the cosy refines of WHFB, where the Eldar's Pointy-Eared Counterparts still have the Speed and Magical Supremacy they deserve.
That was my thought as well, until someone with a rulebook over on BOLS said that units can only assault if they started on the board at the beginning of the turn.
I wonder if av12 fast skimmers will end up being that bad.
I guess they might feel overcosted. I do like the new autocover, I wonder how that is supposed to interact with DE Flicker Fields..
I also get the feeling that the amount of str 6 fire that can be bought in a mech eldar list is going to be quite a boon.
I think av13 firing from over 24 will feel pretty safe, I wonder if the same will go for av12 with a jink. I guess 135ish point missile falcons don't sound all that awful. You could also be trying to get within 24 with them and really kill the crap out of something with the addition of a shuriken cannon, but it's probably not very cost effective at that kind of range.
Hahhaa you guys can all just make scythe spam lists if you want something that feels similar.Torrents are not as important in 6th (when cover gets crappier, AP weaponry gets better), but boy, those 5 average hits are going to be murder with the glance rules and the AP- buff. Not to mention gauss squads and stormteks are going to be feeling a lot more like little groups of fire dragons.
You are getting something like 4.5 hits at str6 with a scatter/shuricannon serpent at 24 range, and what I believe will be a little more survivability at 125 points. Just a matter of figuring out what good the rest of your army is doing. I don't think Serpents are going to be the draw anymore, unless tank shocking is nuts or we get something else that is awesome. Barring that, if serpents are your ace, and you don't have a lot of tricks built into your list, I think you could just be playing a more efficient army elsewhere at this point.
So I've been playing wraithguard. I haven't kept up on rumours, the though being I would just go over the book when I get it. So as far as wraithguard go, how does overwatch look for them?
jbunny wrote:DE gives us Web Way Portals. Reserve units and bring them on mid field. Great for Footdar.
IMO this is the future of Eldar.
Yeah, but somehow, I doubt that Allies will be able to make use of the main army's Rules or Equipment, or vice versa. I mean, it just makes sense. Sure, Eldar coming from a Webway Portal doesn't seem that strange, but what if the DE were Allied with Orks, or SM? Orks, coming from a Webway Portal?! I thought the Webway Portal led to Commoragh?
TheHarleqwin wrote:So I've been playing wraithguard. I haven't kept up on rumours, the though being I would just go over the book when I get it. So as far as wraithguard go, how does overwatch look for them?
Not great, I don't think. Mostly because Wraithguard Units are relatively small. With 10, shooting off BS1 with Overwatch, statistically only 1.666... will hit. That's not great when you're being charged by 30 Ork Boyz.
Something else Ive just learned could be a Pro for 6th Edition Eldar (sorry if this has been said already): At 2000pts, you can use 2 FoCs. So, while other armies can take a Farseer, they can't take 4
Macok wrote:
[I don't want to go on a whinefest, but it doesn't look good people. Of course nothing can compare to Tyranids and their allies. If there is no balancing factor GW really, really dropped the ball there. I won't be mentioning them but I really want to hug the bug players]
HUG ME.
The Shadow wrote:It also annoys me that Eldar, probably the most potent psykers in the galaxy, have access to only 2 of these New Disciplines, where as the Space Marines, the pathetic human beings whose minds are so weak and easily corrupted that their largest threat is themselves, get access to all 5 *spits on ground*.
Yes, it's ridiculous. One can only hope that the Eldar get certain unique bonuses or something. Secondly; 'biomancy' isn't even unique to Tyranids (because Space Marines get it - hell, the IMPERIAL GUARD get it!), and even though the bugs are "the other psykers", they still don't get access to much. It's just somewhat frustrating. Fluff-wise, I'd say Librarians get Divination and Pyromancy, because all they do is divine and blow stuff up (It's also kind of amusing that the Grey Knights - THE psykerMarines - get fewer schools than Blood Angels do). However, like biomancy should be for Tyranids, divination should probably be unique to the Eldar. Because, you know, it's their thing. What next? Space Marines with shuriken-catapult bioweapons, toxin sacs and Banshee masks? Neither of us can complain as much as the one person who plays Chaos Daemons, though. The Warp-spawn get no Warp abilities. I... I don't even.
However, I take solace in the minor buff given to Monstrous Creatures. But one can only shudder to think what horrors the rules have in store for them and their ilk...
MadCowCrazy, via the 6E rumour sticky wrote:Forging a Narrative
In 40k there's nothing more important than being able to tell a story as you play, or as we've called it in the rulebook, Forging a Narrative. With that in mind, there are a number of rules to accommodate how individual models can make a difference to the battle without bogging the game down. Some of these rules are quite subtle, such as characters being able to pick out individual targets; others are more obvious and integral to the game, like challenging your opponent to a duel.
Have you ever imagined how cool it would be to bring down a Monstrous Creature by throwing a krak grenade into its mouth? Well, you can!
I might just be being paranoid, but this fills me with a little dread. What, instantly kill my 6-wound Trygon by rolling a 6 To Hit with a grenade? How much are krak grenades, 5pts? Free? Do you know how much Monstrous Creatures cost? Also, what about the ones that don't even have mouths? Like AHEM DREADKNIGHT AHEM NOT A WALKER.
The only good thing from this is the potential to turn Genestealer Broodlords into a cheap cannon:
"Vortex of Doom, warp charge 2, range 12". Vortex of doom is a Witchfire power with the following profile - S10 AP1, Heavy1, Blast* *If the psychic test is failed centre the template on the psyker, it does not scatter." . That Infiltrating and/or Outflanking? Yes, please.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, also; the allies are ridiculous. I wouldn't want Tyranids to ally. But if they can't, how come Necrons can? Orks can? Why are Eldar and Dark Eldar "Brothers in Arms"? Orks and Chaos Marines, and Tau, and Necron - not BiA, but why even at all? These are not things that grudgingly ally with each other. This makes no sense.
My favourite? Sisters of Battle hate Marines, especially the Black Templars, despite the BT and the SoBs being absolute bros because they both hate them some xenos with holy fury. Speaking of - Black Templars and Eldar? In other words, the single most xenophobic Chapter allied with aliens? Oh, why can't Grey Knights ally with Daemons, then? Other than the fact that that'd boost daemons. But most Marines can't ally with Orks... and GK can.
Also, the paradox of the Imperial Guard. "Grudging Allies" of Chaos, but "Brothers in Arms" to Imperial factions. Obviously the "BiA" represents Imperial Guard. One can only assume the 'allied with Chaos' guard are in fact, Traitor Guardsmen. In which case, why "Grudging Allies"? This is just a way to screw over Chaos Marines yet again; loyalists get Imperial support, but Chaos get crappy Chaos support. At least they have daemons again, but that's kind of no consolation.
The possible excuses for most of these are ridiculous, in of themselves, from a fluff standpoint. Therefore, why not y'know, Guard and Tyranids? Because screw canon! Or stretch belief by saying "Everything is Genestealer cult". Not that I particularly want allies (I will never use them in any army I play except maybe Chaos x Daemons or something), but it seems like Tyranids were shafted on purpose, considering that yes, no Tyranid allies makes sense... but the rest does not. I'm glad to see that the Blood Angels aren't Super Unicorn Princess Best Friends Forever with Necrons, even though "Grudging Allies" is freaking stupid for the Necrons, but since the retcron they're people now so whatever.
steinerp wrote:That was my thought as well, until someone with a rulebook over on BOLS said that units can only assault if they started on the board at the beginning of the turn.
Ok well then good thing I can bring 4 Farseers and 18 war walkers and laugh as I table every army in 2 turns.
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Lucre wrote:I wonder if av12 fast skimmers will end up being that bad.
I guess they might feel overcosted. I do like the new autocover, I wonder how that is supposed to interact with DE Flicker Fields..
I also get the feeling that the amount of str 6 fire that can be bought in a mech eldar list is going to be quite a boon.
I think av13 firing from over 24 will feel pretty safe, I wonder if the same will go for av12 with a jink. I guess 135ish point missile falcons don't sound all that awful. You could also be trying to get within 24 with them and really kill the crap out of something with the addition of a shuriken cannon, but it's probably not very cost effective at that kind of range.
Hahhaa you guys can all just make scythe spam lists if you want something that feels similar.Torrents are not as important in 6th (when cover gets crappier, AP weaponry gets better), but boy, those 5 average hits are going to be murder with the glance rules and the AP- buff. Not to mention gauss squads and stormteks are going to be feeling a lot more like little groups of fire dragons.
You are getting something like 4.5 hits at str6 with a scatter/shuricannon serpent at 24 range, and what I believe will be a little more survivability at 125 points. Just a matter of figuring out what good the rest of your army is doing. I don't think Serpents are going to be the draw anymore, unless tank shocking is nuts or we get something else that is awesome. Barring that, if serpents are your ace, and you don't have a lot of tricks built into your list, I think you could just be playing a more efficient army elsewhere at this point.
Are you volunteering to buy and build and paint a gold and blue necron army for me? can I just have 9 war walkers?
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The Shadow wrote:Something else Ive just learned could be a Pro for 6th Edition Eldar (sorry if this has been said already): At 2000pts, you can use 2 FoCs. So, while other armies can take a Farseer, they can't take 4
1. Farseers have the two best lores. One of them ideplicates a lot of the eldar psychic powers. The default for telepathy is guide by another name. That said, farseers are important. Doom and DE and the crazy amount of posion shots might be the strongest combo in the gamenow that you can pop trasnports so quickly.
2. Waveserpents. AV12 transports are pretty much as goodas you get and we have one with 2 weapons. Note if you run the math 2 x 3 shot S6 weapons statistically kills a rhino a turn. So are waveserpents the beast they used to be? No, but they are actually good compared to a lot of tansports now and the rules are perfec for their weapon payload.
3. FIRE PRISMS - Yes. You no longer need the hole to be on a vehicle for the blast template to be full strength. So fire prisms are really good at parking lot busting. It's also much harder to stop a fire prism from shooting with stun glance being harder toget
4. Harlies - The rending is good again due to the new wound allocation rules. Also haywires are really good, so look towrad grenade launchers and haywire grenades.
5. artillery are T7 2w now. They might be more viable
6. autarches on jetbikes. zoom "48 is interesting with a fusion gun, he can also be pretty good in hth. also with reserves starting on 3+ you are pretty much guarnteed to get what you want in.
7. scorps with hay wires maybe? It's unclear if you can throw haywire grenades, but we will have to wait for FAQ
8. fire dragons are hard to deploy now.... you can only ever disembark if the vehicle only moved 6"... so you would have to zoom up the turn before, then move the tank, disembark and shoot. kind of a screw you to fast armies
9. hth against vehicles is basically 3+ to hit, so eldar tanks are really vulnerable to charges now.
deFl0 wrote:
2. Waveserpents. AV12 transports are pretty much as goodas you get and we have one with 2 weapons. Note if you run the math 2 x 3 shot S6 weapons statistically kills a rhino a turn. So are waveserpents the beast they used to be? No, but they are actually good compared to a lot of tansports now and the rules are perfec for their weapon payload.
3. FIRE PRISMS - Yes. You no longer need the hole to be on a vehicle for the blast template to be full strength. So fire prisms are really good at parking lot busting. It's also much harder to stop a fire prism from shooting with stun glance being harder toget
8. fire dragons are hard to deploy now.... you can only ever disembark if the vehicle only moved 6"... so you would have to zoom up the turn before, then move the tank, disembark and shoot. kind of a screw you to fast armies
2 & 3 - Good to note that apparently Fast Skimmers can move 12" in Mvmt and then 18" in the shooting phase instead of shooting... so the mobility is at it's utmost now. The only thing I am honestly worried about is the availability of Skyfire and flakk missiles....
#8 - Apparently you get to disembark 6" from access point though, so it's not a huge difference, and also the FD won't be the only AT in the list anymore because of the beauty of Hull Points, so you shouldnt have to suicide squad them anymore
4. Harlies - The rending is good again due to the new wound allocation rules. Also haywires are really good, so look towrad grenade launchers and haywire grenades.
...
7. scorps with hay wires maybe? It's unclear if you can throw haywire grenades, but we will have to wait for FAQ
Neither of these units have haywire grenades, only Autarchs and Swooping Hawks do.
Not to mention you can't nerf fortuned Invulnerable saves. and when they get on their jetbikes... things get awesome. Jetbikes are getting a pretty good buff.
steinerp wrote:
[/list][list] Flyers, unless you play with Forgeworld we have no anti-aircraft weapons
After reading the actual book...
It looks like you can always buy an aegis wall with a gun emplacement for 100 points or less. Interceptor (shoot when it arrives) and skyfire (use regular BS), and twin-linking also possible. Put an exarch on the trigger for BS5.
Also it looks like all our exarchs get to allocate the wound when they roll a 6 to hit. That makes exarchs who get a lot of shots (DA with twin cats) or exarchs who can get crack shot (ignore cover) especially interesting...
It's a character rule. Any character who rolls a 6 to hit gets to allocate that hit. Shooting or close combat.
This also applies to death jesters.
Asurmen with his free rerolls to hit gets a little boost on that count.
Also you don't really need an autarch for reserve bonuses anymore, since reserve rolls are now 3+ on turn 2&3, then automatic on turn 4. If you really want the +1 for reserves, it's cheaper than a basic autarch to get an aegis wall with comms relay to reroll you reserves rolls. And it doesn't use up a HQ slot.
Flavius Infernus wrote:It looks like all bikes have been boosted in that they just add +1 to base toughness now, no different toughness value for purposes of instant death.
So a farseer/autarch on a bike isn't instajibbed by T6 shots anymore.
But, according to the FAQ that came out this morning, Harlies veil of tears is replaced by stealth and shrouding :(
I like the speed options they have. 12" move combined with a 24" turbo boost. I also saw they can move again in the assault phase (unsure if they can do this after turbo-boosting)
While eldar bikes may not have much shooty, they have a lot of movement. This might be extremely important, depending on how objectives play out.
Eldar jetbikes can either take a 12" move and 2d6 assault move, or a 36" turbo. Eldar in general might also benefit from speed in the way that the new wound allocation rules work.
People will tend to put the valuable models at the back of the unit, and Eldar units like jetbikes have the mobility to zoom around the back of the unit and shoot. Even shuriken catapults can do the job if you're just trying to snipe the missile guy or whatever.
Eldar vehicles are now easier to take down:
(1) 3 hull points means 3 glancing hits and the vehicle is gone,
(2) in cc vehicles are always hit on 3+.
On the other hand, shooting with a Serpent or a Falcon is now a bit more dangerous for the enemy, since fast vehicles can move 12'' and shoot 2 weapons (as far as I know).
Flavius Infernus wrote:With overwatch, probably nobody's going to want to charge a unit of 20 guardians.
If it's true that AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, Wraithcannons, brightlances and pulse lasers (and starcannons) all get an antitank bonus.
Depending on how artillery rules have been changed, batteries of dirt-cheap shadow weaver shots, with the whole template now str6 against vehicles, might become a decent choice again.
Even though they're expensive, starcannons might become the go-to gun again for taking down terminators.
20 Guardians kill 1 Space Marine at BS 1. That's not scary at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks to the person who pointed out the benefit of allying with DE giving Eldar WWP's! This had never crossed my mind. As much as the idea of "allying" DE and Eldar together make me sick, I can easily convert an Archon to be a Corsair Prince or something.
Not being able to assault out of a WWP isn't really that big of a deal since Footdar isn't awesome at assault anways. This just gives a Footdar list some more flexibility with deployment, and can help in matchups against long range gunlines that the shorter Eldar weapons have issues dealing with.
So, apparently GW can't count to 5 (I do not possess this ability either).
VoT FAQ states to replace second and third sentence and add Shrouding and Stealth. Thanks to their error VoT now gains those two abilities while loosing nothing.
I think I need to play with this FAQfast before they will fix this (obvious) mistake.
That just made Veil of Tears even better. Especially since the part about following Warlock power rules does not matter (See further down in the FAQ about SHadowseer Psychic Mastery).
So now they have a 4+ cover save (when not in cover) AND they have to be spotted first to shoot at them.
Not sure how the spotting distance thing is going to work in the new rules though.
I also see Singing Spears being slightly better (ftm) compared to Witchblades when trying ot take out vehicles: Witchblade - 2D6+3 armour pen Singing Spear 9+D6 for armour pen
Too lazy to math-hammer to see what the probability to glance/pen is.
Griever wrote:
Thanks to the person who pointed out the benefit of allying with DE giving Eldar WWP's! This had never crossed my mind. As much as the idea of "allying" DE and Eldar together make me sick, I can easily convert an Archon to be a Corsair Prince or something.
Not being able to assault out of a WWP isn't really that big of a deal since Footdar isn't awesome at assault anways. This just gives a Footdar list some more flexibility with deployment, and can help in matchups against long range gunlines that the shorter Eldar weapons have issues dealing with.
keep reading, the DEfaq says allies cannot come out of the WWP
Macok wrote:So, apparently GW can't count to 5 (I do not possess this ability either).
VoT FAQ states to replace second and third sentence and add Shrouding and Stealth. Thanks to their error VoT now gains those two abilities while loosing nothing.
I think I need to play with this FAQfast before they will fix this (obvious) mistake.
Hahaha, I guess they meant "paragraph" and not "sentence." I wonder how that will play out.
my Eldar playing buddy who doesn't post on Dakka has a question about the new Eldar 6E FAQ:
"A Farseer (including Eldrad Ulthran) may use the psychic
disciplines found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in Codex: Eldar. If he does so, for each psychic power he has purchased from Codex: Eldar, generate a new power from either the Divination or Telepathy discipline (in any combination) before armies are deployed. Eldrad Ulthran generates four new powers."
His questions: "Does that mean Eldrad gets 3 eldar only abilities or 4 non eldar abilities? It's not very clear. Can he mix and match?"
Another question: it says for each power purchased you can generate a new power. Does that mean if I want to generate two new powers, I can buy Guide and Mind War and have the same effect as if I bought Fortune and Doom, only saving 15 points?
MandalorynOranj wrote:Another question: it says for each power purchased you can generate a new power. Does that mean if I want to generate two new powers, I can buy Guide and Mind War and have the same effect as if I bought Fortune and Doom, only saving 15 points?
yes if you plan on subbing out powers it is best to buy cheap powers in the first place.
I'm curious as to other folks' opinions on whether or not changes to other armies might make Starcannons more common again. Previously, I'd switched to Scatter Lasers for the extra shots against light vehicles. With the changes to power weapons, I'm wondering if it is important to have another source of AP2 weaponry in the army.
I was reading the psychic power section and the book makes it very clear that a psyker must have LoS to the target. Specifically mentioned is being inside of a transport. Does this stop a farseer from casting fortune and guide at friendlies from a serpent or do we have a specific line somewhere that allows us to do so?
The entry about "Farseer Psychic Powers" p. 28 "Unless otherwise noted [...] and do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to target".
I guess as a specific Eldar psychic power entry it is more important than BRB one.
I've began trying to piece together a tactica on the new eldar playstyles.. do you think we could start listing some new possiblities we find in our codex via the FAQ and new rulebook?
Here's a few things I've noticed..
1) Harliquins are right now very very solid. We are all fairly certain their FAQ is in error, and that they will lose the requirement to be spotted eventually.
While that is a semi-nerf, keep in mind that with shrouding and scout, a squad of Harliquins can outflank onto the board, run into cover, and enjoy a 2+ cover save for the round.
2) Eldar Jetbikes were definataly buffed. While you cannot gain a 3+ cover anymore, the large range is very useful. Note that Guardian Jetbikes are more durable, but cannot hide in reserves as long before coming to play.
3) Fire Prisms are about the same. On the brightside, they enjoy the new blast rules and might have more purpose with the incoming rise of TEQ's. Also, you probably won't feel the need to purchase any Holo-fields and Spirit Stones anymore.
4) Weapon Support Batteries Improved. Especially with the ability to move the infantry around but not lose the ability to fire if the weapons stay still. (Ie, each round you keep 1 guardian in front of each weapon. Shots are against T7 per artillery rules. Wounds still resolve vs the closest model. If your guardian dies, shuffle another up. Plus the cannon itself gained 2 wounds. Putting these things in an Aegis Defense Line or a bigger bastion is very doable,
D Cannons remain about the same. Glancing is better but the short range hurts.
Shadow Weavers improve tremendously. Note that with a double force orginizational chart, you can have 4 cheap Farseers with the "new" guide from divination aiding the shots of 12 STR 6 templates.. Technically, you could have up to 18 of these weapons..
Vibro Cannons become monstrous. Re-rollable (via powers) 36 inch lines that can hit units in CC and AUTOGLANCE vehicles on a hit is great. If you max these batteries out you could reliably kill 3 vehicles per turn and potentially glance 6 to death. And thats assuming you only hit 1 vehicle per 36 inch line.
5) Iyanden lists are doable for those fluff nutts. 20 Wraithguard can meet minimum troop obligations and leave room for 6 Wraithlords. Then take Yriel and it's a fluff list!
6) Seer Councils on Jetbikes may finally be worth the points of a maxed out unit. I'd attach two Farseers to it I think for the bigger range of powers. Witchblades didn't lose anything in melee really. 3+2d6 is an average of 10. I'm not clear on S.Spears. Does throwing them still count as Str 9?
Also, with a 36 inch range and rerollable 3+/4++ and the ability to take armor vs terrain tests, we can move up really well. And there's usually nightfight T1 anyways.
7) DE rerollable 2++ saves are ridiculous and tasty. I can see DE adding a lot of dimensions to our lists, should we choose to forgive our wayward cousins and except their aid.
8: With people getting really fancy with troop formations now, Eldar will have a great ability to mess with coherency. Rangers alone can usually eke out 2 precise shots with 9 shooters, and that alone might be enough. Then add jumppacks and jetbikes and it's very possible to throw off enemy forces with only a few wounds.
9) We do STR 6 spam better than anyone. Eldar glance-to-death armies gain power.
10) Swooping hawks can intercept flyers and plant grenades on a 4+. Might be worth a try.
djones520 wrote:Anyone else thinking Holofields aren't going to be worth the points anymore?
Well, it appears that they are only in use when the tank get a penetrating hit. For a glancing hit, no roll on the chart is made. So three glancing hits and the tank is dead; the holofield comes not into effect.
Magc8Ball wrote:I'm curious as to other folks' opinions on whether or not changes to other armies might make Starcannons more common again. Previously, I'd switched to Scatter Lasers for the extra shots against light vehicles. With the changes to power weapons, I'm wondering if it is important to have another source of AP2 weaponry in the army.
How many power weapons did you bring to take down terminators before? I don't seem to remember many army lists with banshees.
You can expect to see a slight rise in terminator armies, but as people start bringing more PGs, the meta will shift back away from the terminator armies and you will see as many as you do today.
So, do you really need to alter your meta to deal with terminators as eldar? Probably not. Keep your fire dragons, they will do the job just as well vs normal terminators and bounce off TH/SS terminators -- just like before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thunderfrog wrote:Vibro Cannons become monstrous. Re-rollable (via powers) 36 inch lines that can hit units in CC and AUTOGLANCE vehicles on a hit is great. If you max these batteries out you could reliably kill 3 vehicles per turn and potentially glance 6 to death. And thats assuming you only hit 1 vehicle per 36 inch line.
I've been looking at this, and I'm not sure it works that way.
The rule says that when you have a battery, you roll to hit with each battery. If one vibrocannon hits, then you draw a 36" line from any vibrocannon.
The section on vibrocannons effect on armor is the following "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit."
It seems that as your only drawing one line, that one vibrocannon is hitting. In the case of the vibrocannons on infantry, the others increase the STR of the hit -- but I see nothing about vehicles.
I looked through the FAQ. Is there another place that confirms that all 3 vibrocannos count as glancing?
Well, vibrocannons are very vulnerable. The enemy will target them early if necessary. Moreover, they compete with all the other units in the HS section.
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed about these rule changes for Eldar. The prospects are not very good since Eldar is largely based on synergy.
-Eldrad rolling on Divination is very good. Auto-include for me.
-Starcannons got stronger with the ability to target models outside of cover.
-Reapers got stronger with the ability to target models outside of cover.
-Wraithlords are characters and can snipe/challenge. Many possible weapon Loadouts...
-I think Walkers/Reapers/Wraithlords will be common, won't see the Heavy Support Vehicles.
-Tank Hunter re-rolls to penetrate.
-Can Pre-measure everything. This helps a lot with Eldar.
-Stronger focus on infantry in the Meta and away from Mech-spam which Eldar struggled with.
-Waveserpent move and shoot turret+underslung Shuricannon, recieves 5+ jink save.
- You can ally a voidraven bomber for a flyer, and DE warriors have rapid fire guns - far better than Guardians.
These are the units I think have gotten better * Pathfinders Being able to place precision shots at range is very strong.
* Harlequins.....Shroud and Stealth means they have a 4+ cover save in the open, dropping to a 2+ in woods. Rending is still AP2.
* Wraithlords...They gained new abilities, and kept all their old ones. Unlike other MCs, their impact hit is STR 10.
* Warlocks......Being level 0 psykers means they can deny the witch on a 5+. Wytchblades did get a nurf, but they still tear up most vehicles.
* Avatar...........For the same reason as the Wraithlords
* Eldrad...........I did not think it was possible, but being a lvl 3 psyker that can trade out 4 powers is huge.
* Dark Reapers...As mentioned, they can target outside cover -- and they can hold objectives on some missions.
* Banshees....Model power axes on all your banshees. Your squad strikes at I10 and at STR 4.
* Guardian Jet Bikes.....These can move incredibly fast -- excellent for taking objectives late game.
* Shining spears......They get impact hits. They can move very fast. Their still extremely overpriced.
These units have gotten better and worse Falcons + Wave Serpents
* They get a 5+ jink save.
* They all can move 18" in the shooting phase instead of shooting.
* They can move 12" and shoot 2 guns, which is perfect for those underslung cannons or both falcon guns.
* They are more fragile with hull points. You can't just hide in your transports all game any more.
* STR 6 spam is better now that you can glance to death via hull points.
These are the units that I think have gotten weaker * Nightspinners....being able to take armor saves vs dangerous terrain tests lowers the effect of these.
* Guardians.........Where all other basic troops with rapid fire weapons got a boost, guardians are bottom of the barrel.
Flavius Infernus wrote:With overwatch, probably nobody's going to want to charge a unit of 20 guardians.
If it's true that AP2 adds +1 to the vehicle damage table, Wraithcannons, brightlances and pulse lasers (and starcannons) all get an antitank bonus.
Depending on how artillery rules have been changed, batteries of dirt-cheap shadow weaver shots, with the whole template now str6 against vehicles, might become a decent choice again.
Even though they're expensive, starcannons might become the go-to gun again for taking down terminators.
20 Guardians kill 1 Space Marine at BS 1. That's not scary at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks to the person who pointed out the benefit of allying with DE giving Eldar WWP's! This had never crossed my mind. As much as the idea of "allying" DE and Eldar together make me sick, I can easily convert an Archon to be a Corsair Prince or something.
Not being able to assault out of a WWP isn't really that big of a deal since Footdar isn't awesome at assault anways. This just gives a Footdar list some more flexibility with deployment, and can help in matchups against long range gunlines that the shorter Eldar weapons have issues dealing with.
not being able to assault out of the webwayportal kills the build, it isnt viable without that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Loch wrote:So did anyone else pick up on this sad tidbit:
6e Rulebook, p. 67:
A Psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per turn- even if the manifestation attempt is not successful
Eldar Codex, p. 28:
Farseer Psychic Powers: Unless otherwise noted, these powers work as described in the Psychic Powers section of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook...
I guess this means an end to casting Fortune or Guide on multiple units without two Farseers. :(
Eldrads staff overides the BRB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote:These are the units I think have gotten better * Pathfinders Being able to place precision shots at range is very strong.
* Harlequins.....Shroud and Stealth means they have a 4+ cover save in the open, dropping to a 2+ in woods. Rending is still AP2.
* Wraithlords...They gained new abilities, and kept all their old ones. Unlike other MCs, their impact hit is STR 10.
* Warlocks......Being level 0 psykers means they can deny the witch on a 5+. Wytchblades did get a nurf, but they still tear up most vehicles.
* Avatar...........For the same reason as the Wraithlords
* Eldrad...........I did not think it was possible, but being a lvl 3 psyker that can trade out 4 powers is huge.
* Dark Reapers...As mentioned, they can target outside cover -- and they can hold objectives on some missions.
* Banshees....Model power axes on all your banshees. Your squad strikes at I10 and at STR 4.
* Guardian Jet Bikes.....These can move incredibly fast -- excellent for taking objectives late game.
* Shining spears......They get impact hits. They can move very fast. Their still extremely overpriced.
These units have gotten better and worse Falcons + Wave Serpents
* They get a 5+ jink save.
* They all can move 18" in the shooting phase instead of shooting.
* They can move 12" and shoot 2 guns, which is perfect for those underslung cannons or both falcon guns.
* They are more fragile with hull points. You can't just hide in your transports all game any more.
* STR 6 spam is better now that you can glance to death via hull points.
These are the units that I think have gotten weaker * Nightspinners....being able to take armor saves vs dangerous terrain tests lowers the effect of these.
* Guardians.........Where all other basic troops with rapid fire weapons got a boost, guardians are bottom of the barrel.
Interesting points, thank you for posting this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote:
djones520 wrote:Anyone else thinking Holofields aren't going to be worth the points anymore?
Well, it appears that they are only in use when the tank get a penetrating hit. For a glancing hit, no roll on the chart is made. So three glancing hits and the tank is dead; the holofield comes not into effect.
holofields are 100% a dead and bad upgrade :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
spackledgoat wrote:I was reading the psychic power section and the book makes it very clear that a psyker must have LoS to the target. Specifically mentioned is being inside of a transport. Does this stop a farseer from casting fortune and guide at friendlies from a serpent or do we have a specific line somewhere that allows us to do so?
Only shooting psychic powers require line of sight, Fortune and Guide are not shooting psychic powers, so they dont require LOS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exergy wrote:
Griever wrote:
Thanks to the person who pointed out the benefit of allying with DE giving Eldar WWP's! This had never crossed my mind. As much as the idea of "allying" DE and Eldar together make me sick, I can easily convert an Archon to be a Corsair Prince or something.
Not being able to assault out of a WWP isn't really that big of a deal since Footdar isn't awesome at assault anways. This just gives a Footdar list some more flexibility with deployment, and can help in matchups against long range gunlines that the shorter Eldar weapons have issues dealing with.
keep reading, the DEfaq says allies cannot come out of the WWP
That would of made a really cool aspect to the game, but whatever GW.............
I know its sad that Imperials can now take Farseer with Runes of Warding, with Pathfinders, and a Squad of Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent is a bit daunting, especially if you are Eldar fighting Space Marines with Eldar allies (lul what?).
But look on the bright side. We are buddies with the Tau and what do the Tau have? Marker lights and Broadsides. For the auxiliary we take a battle suit with 2 marker drones, missile pods, and targeting array. For troops we take 6 fire warriors and give their leader a marker light. Then we can take 8 pathfinders. Boom, no more cover for enemies. For the grand finale, take 3 broadsides. This way, we don't' worry about the cover saves on the board. And so far, the only S 10 AP 1 heavy that we have is taking 2 Fire Prisms. If we take Broadsides, we get 3 twin linked S 10 AP 1 shots AND we get 3 HS slots available. The Tau only comes out to around 725 points. Not a bad deal in a 2K game.
Then for the Eldar side, take Eldrad hands down. Take 2 5-man pathfinders for the troops. Take some Banshees and Fire Dragons in wave serpents for your elites. This still leaves you about 250 points if you want to take Yriel for Challenge lulls (Eldrad and Yriel both say that they ignore armor, not having power weapons so they can still take down terminators). Or you can take swooping hawk for their Haywire. Haywire got a massive buff. After hitting the vehicle you just need to not roll a 1 to glance it. Roll a 6 for a penetrating hit. If a tank didn't move, it gets auto hit. If it did move, you hit on a 3. 3 Haywire means byebye to most tanks out there. 4 for a Landraider. I think intercept allows us to hit flyers on a 4+. Take 10 Swooping Hawks and on average thats 5 grenades going off. Byebye flyer.
So yes, I'm peeved that others get Eldar, but look at it this way: use marker lights to light up that Wave Serpent witth the Fire Dragons so that there's no cover saves. Shoot 3 twin linked rail guns into it. You only need a 2+ to glance it. 3+ to pen it. So if you're lucky and hit with all rail guns and roll all 2+, thats the dead dreaded fire dragons coming at you.
So in a way, I'm very glad Eldar are buddies with the Tau.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hang on, pathfinders need a Devilship to go along with them, so it'll cost more than 725. That or take stealth teams.
SkyHawk wrote:Take some Banshees and Fire Dragons in wave serpents for your elites.
The Banshees part sounds like a bad taste joke... in 6th ed, even if a transport hasn't moved, you can't disembark and then assault in the same turn. Banshees in transports are unfortunately absolutely useless until the Eldar get assault ramps, if they ever do...
SkyHawk wrote: I think intercept allows us to hit flyers on a 4+.
Sadly I don't think that's true either. There's nothing in either the Eldar codex or the FAQ to suggest it.
I'm curious about Imperium armies taking Farseers for RoW... will the RoW nerf their own psykers as well? (if they have them?)
RoW: "All enemy psykers roll an extra d6..."
Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
If an Imperial army takes a Farseer to a tournament, chances are they wont be taking their own psykers as well if my reading of this is correct... any thoughts?
stuffah wrote:Hey all, I went and got a login just to say...
SkyHawk wrote:Take some Banshees and Fire Dragons in wave serpents for your elites.
The Banshees part sounds like a bad taste joke... in 6th ed, even if a transport hasn't moved, you can't disembark and then assault in the same turn. Banshees in transports are unfortunately absolutely useless until the Eldar get assault ramps, if they ever do...
SkyHawk wrote: I think intercept allows us to hit flyers on a 4+.
Sadly I don't think that's true either. There's nothing in either the Eldar codex or the FAQ to suggest it.
Yeah, forgot about the no assault if you didn't ride a assault vehicle. That's scratches out. Tau and Eldar are Battle Brothers so they're treated as friendly units, meaning marker lights can affect them right?
And for intercept, it says, "In assaults they never require worse than 4+ to hit a vehicle." (35 of Eldar codex). A flyer is still a vehicle so wouldn't the rule still count?
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djones520 wrote:
SkyHawk wrote:Railguns are still S: 10 AP: 1 in the reference table. Do they no longer have rail guns?
Against Wave Serpents they'd still be str 8. I guess I should have qouted the direct comment.
Oh right forgot about that. Well, let's hope imperials don't know how to use a Wave Serpent. ^_^
slice'n'dice wrote: Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
Excellent spot there! Until there's a FAQ ruling (if one ever comes out, of course), I'd say your interpretation is right. Seems a good thing too, since if I'm playing Eldar I don't want to keep having my own Farseers shut down by random allied ones...
slice'n'dice wrote:I'm curious about Imperium armies taking Farseers for RoW... will the RoW nerf their own psykers as well? (if they have them?)
RoW: "All enemy psykers roll an extra d6..."
Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
If an Imperial army takes a Farseer to a tournament, chances are they wont be taking their own psykers as well if my reading of this is correct... any thoughts?
I guess that's true.
The only other possibility is RoW affecting farseer that holds it, since HE is the enemy, while imperial psykers remain unaffected.. I will have to read all the rules when I'm home, but that would be hilarious..
SkyHawk wrote: And for intercept, it says, "In assaults they never require worse than 4+ to hit a vehicle." (35 of Eldar codex). A flyer is still a vehicle so wouldn't the rule still count?
Problem is the rulebook says zooming flyers can't be assaulted at all. Hovering ones act like Fast Skimers, though, so I guess you can get them on a 3+.
SkyHawk wrote: And for intercept, it says, "In assaults they never require worse than 4+ to hit a vehicle." (35 of Eldar codex). A flyer is still a vehicle so wouldn't the rule still count?
Problem is the rulebook says zooming flyers can't be assaulted at all. Hovering ones act like Fast Skimers, though, so I guess you can get them on a 3+.
Not when the rule book says, that you can NOT assault flyers while they are Zooming.
The rulebook says no assaulting.
Your codex says hits vehicles on a 4+.
But you can't hit something if you are not allowed to assault it.
Now you can throw a Haywire grenade at it and pray for a 6.
A little change I haven't seen mentioned yet... Stealth now gives Rangers a 6+ cover save if they're out of cover, so it seems like Pathfinders should always have a 5+. Also, if they're moving for some reason they can fire Snap Shots, and if you do happen to get that 6 (with the new improved version of Guide, maybe?) it will be AP1.
Not that they should be out of cover or moving anyway, but still, worth remembering...
I see your point. On a off not, I'm reading the psyker section and I do not see when we're suppose to cast the powers. For Eldar powers it's at the beginning of the turn. So for the others it's whenever I want? Also what is the cost of our spells? 1 charge?
If you take 4 of them, you can always regroup, as you will always have at least 25% of the base models in the squad.
Take 3 guardians and 1 warlock.
Now you have an extremely fast moving scoring unit. You can use this to tear up vehicles. While wytchblades got a nurf vs armor (down to STR +2d6) they hit vehicles now 2/3 of the time -- so a wytchblade will get 1 penetrating hit on average vs vehicles.
These 4 models clock in at 116 points with embolden.
labmouse42 wrote:Guardian jet bikes are also worth a second look.
If you take 4 of them, you can always regroup, as you will always have at least 25% of the base models in the squad.
Take 3 guardians and 1 warlock.
Now you have an extremely fast moving scoring unit. You can use this to tear up vehicles. While wytchblades got a nurf vs armor (down to STR +2d6) they hit vehicles now 2/3 of the time -- so a wytchblade will get 1 penetrating hit on average vs vehicles.
These 4 models clock in at 116 points with embolden.
Well, the regrouping property is nice. But I'll stay away from this extreme fragile unit, one penetrating hit per turn is not enough.
Remember that 5/6 of the missions are objective missions of one kind or another (the relic is a moveable objective or '40k bloodbowl')
As such fast moving MSU scoring units I think will be very strong.
I plan on playtesting with 24 bikes in an eldar army this coming weekend to see how it does. It might suck, but sometimes you won't know until the models hit the table.
wuestenfux wrote:Well, vibrocannons are very vulnerable. The enemy will target them early if necessary. Moreover, they compete with all the other units in the HS section.
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed about these rule changes for Eldar. The prospects are not very good since Eldar is largely based on synergy.
How vulnerable? They don't need LOS which means they can completely hide from the enemy and now it's a T7 2 wound monster that benifts from cover easier and fortune to reroll the save. Nothing can come on the back board edge to assault it anymore since you can't assault out of reserves.
It's the number one vehicle killer in the game right now. Heck Eldar are the number one vehicle killing army in the game right now. Str 6 weapons will glance the vast majority of tanks in the game and the Eldar can put out more str 6 multishot guns than any other codex.
slice'n'dice wrote:I'm curious about Imperium armies taking Farseers for RoW... will the RoW nerf their own psykers as well? (if they have them?)
RoW: "All enemy psykers roll an extra d6..."
Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
If an Imperial army takes a Farseer to a tournament, chances are they wont be taking their own psykers as well if my reading of this is correct... any thoughts?
slice'n'dice wrote:I'm curious about Imperium armies taking Farseers for RoW... will the RoW nerf their own psykers as well? (if they have them?)
RoW: "All enemy psykers roll an extra d6..."
Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
If an Imperial army takes a Farseer to a tournament, chances are they wont be taking their own psykers as well if my reading of this is correct... any thoughts?
this is hilarious
Heh...they get what they deserve for trying to take Eldar allies to exploit RoW
wuestenfux wrote:Well, vibrocannons are very vulnerable. The enemy will target them early if necessary. Moreover, they compete with all the other units in the HS section.
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed about these rule changes for Eldar. The prospects are not very good since Eldar is largely based on synergy.
How vulnerable? They don't need LOS which means they can completely hide from the enemy and now it's a T7 2 wound monster that benifts from cover easier and fortune to reroll the save. Nothing can come on the back board edge to assault it anymore since you can't assault out of reserves.
It's the number one vehicle killer in the game right now. Heck Eldar are the number one vehicle killing army in the game right now. Str 6 weapons will glance the vast majority of tanks in the game and the Eldar can put out more str 6 multishot guns than any other codex.
Well, I generally play on tables (also at GW stores) which hardly allow to fully hide batteries.
The number-one vehicle-killing army in the game is Necrons, hands down.
Read through all the comments and their are alot of good thoughts on how to play our pointy ears now. I really like the idea of tau allies helping us ignore cover. That is spectacular. Taking 4 farseers at 2000 points is also a great idea.
I wrote up all the info I could think of regarding eldar in 6th edition last night over here...
Some things were covered in these posts but three are also other stuff that wasn't mentioned. I made up a list of every unit and what I thought 6th edition was doing for it.
All in all, I dont think we got worse, just maybe a change of tactics.
Razgriz22 wrote:I really like the idea of tau allies helping us ignore cover. That is spectacular.
You may want to check if allies can use Tau markerlights
Battle Brothers are counted as being friendly units for the purpose of targeting with psychic powers, abilities, and so on. Tau Codex reads tat only tau Units may expend markerlights. Does the clause under battle brothers allow eldar to expend markerlights? Maybe? but probably not. The tau FAQ has a section for the markerlight but doesnt say anything about a battle brother using it. So I'd say probably no. But that "abilities and SO ON" part makes me think yes.
Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
Question: in the FAQ it says "Eldrad generates 4 new powers." Does he replace all of his current powers with four new ones, or can he choose to say, keep doom, guide, and fortune, and swap mind war and eldritch storm?
From what I have read, you either choose rule book or codex powers. Not an inbetween. When eldrad picks rule book powers he can take generate 4 from divination or telepathy or both. Farseers buy codex powers then replace them with rulebook powers if they want. I have a better description in my blog thats in my sig.
MaxDamage wrote:Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
No, you can't Flat Out and Star Engine. They both have the same cost, giving up shooting.
labmouse42 wrote:These are the units I think have gotten better * Pathfinders Being able to place precision shots at range is very strong.
* Harlequins.....Shroud and Stealth means they have a 4+ cover save in the open, dropping to a 2+ in woods. Rending is still AP2.
* Wraithlords...They gained new abilities, and kept all their old ones. Unlike other MCs, their impact hit is STR 10.
* Warlocks......Being level 0 psykers means they can deny the witch on a 5+. Wytchblades did get a nurf, but they still tear up most vehicles.
* Avatar...........For the same reason as the Wraithlords
* Eldrad...........I did not think it was possible, but being a lvl 3 psyker that can trade out 4 powers is huge.
* Dark Reapers...As mentioned, they can target outside cover -- and they can hold objectives on some missions.
* Banshees....Model power axes on all your banshees. Your squad strikes at I10 and at STR 4.
* Guardian Jet Bikes.....These can move incredibly fast -- excellent for taking objectives late game.
* Shining spears......They get impact hits. They can move very fast. Their still extremely overpriced.
.
People can now run away from Wraithlords if they cannot hurt them and now you can use grenades against MC so marines will use their krak or melta bombs
slice'n'dice wrote:I'm curious about Imperium armies taking Farseers for RoW... will the RoW nerf their own psykers as well? (if they have them?)
RoW: "All enemy psykers roll an extra d6..."
Allies of convenience, "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..."
If an Imperial army takes a Farseer to a tournament, chances are they wont be taking their own psykers as well if my reading of this is correct... any thoughts?
this is hilarious
Heh...they get what they deserve for trying to take Eldar allies to exploit RoW
and DE are battle brothers, so their psykers dont need to worry about RoW, but wait they have no psykers
Also, can't wait to bring back my Vypers for this edition - Can now fire both heavy weapons like walkers, be guided like walkers, but also get a 5+ jink save that can be fortuned
I reckon Vypers are going to be a lot more prevalent in Eldar builds
I've always liked shining spears, overpriced or not, with this little boost I'm defiantly going to get some now. Do most people just buy them plastic jetbikes and put the riders from the set on? because metal jetbikes on little dinky plastic stands is just stupid.
slice'n'dice wrote:Also, can't wait to bring back my Vypers for this edition - Can now fire both heavy weapons like walkers, be guided like walkers, but also get a 5+ jink save that can be fortuned
I reckon Vypers are going to be a lot more prevalent in Eldar builds
I agree. They also have the advantage of using their speed to be able to get round units and firing at stuff your opponent doesn't want dying. "Keeping your PK Nob at the back, are we? Well...."
slice'n'dice wrote:Also, can't wait to bring back my Vypers for this edition - Can now fire both heavy weapons like walkers, be guided like walkers, but also get a 5+ jink save that can be fortuned
I reckon Vypers are going to be a lot more prevalent in Eldar builds
I agree. They also have the advantage of using their speed to be able to get round units and firing at stuff your opponent doesn't want dying. "Keeping your PK Nob at the back, are we? Well...."
Don't forget the changes in squadron rules that immobilized models aren't destroyed anymore. That will help vypers a bit.
But they are still open-topped and you may want to buy spirit stones for them now so that a stunned vyper in the squadron doesn't pin down the whole unit.
[edit]
Whoops, on second thought spirit stones are too expensive. I was thinking vypers only paid 5 points for spirit stones, but that's War Walkers.
Razgriz22 wrote:From what I have read, you either choose rule book or codex powers. Not an inbetween. When eldrad picks rule book powers he can take generate 4 from divination or telepathy or both. Farseers buy codex powers then replace them with rulebook powers if they want. I have a better description in my blog thats in my sig.
Aw that's a shame. Great blog btw, I'll be sure to start following that.
slice'n'dice wrote:Also, can't wait to bring back my Vypers for this edition - Can now fire both heavy weapons like walkers, be guided like walkers, but also get a 5+ jink save that can be fortuned
I reckon Vypers are going to be a lot more prevalent in Eldar builds
I agree. They also have the advantage of using their speed to be able to get round units and firing at stuff your opponent doesn't want dying. "Keeping your PK Nob at the back, are we? Well...."
Don't forget the changes in squadron rules that immobilized models aren't destroyed anymore. That will help vypers a bit.
But they are still open-topped and you may want to buy spirit stones for them now so that a stunned vyper in the squadron doesn't pin down the whole unit.
with only 2 hull points you want these guys cheap. Venoms, which are also AV10, 2 hull points and a 5++ are ok but not great. Very easy to kill but your opponent wont waste too much firepower on them to avoid overkill. A squadron doesnt have that problem.
Also note that they die in CC so fast now its funny.
Cypher's Sword wrote:I've always liked shining spears, overpriced or not, with this little boost I'm defiantly going to get some now. Do most people just buy them plastic jetbikes and put the riders from the set on? because metal jetbikes on little dinky plastic stands is just stupid.
I've been tooling out a list with 4 farseers on EJB's. 2 Go with 6 man seer councils on bikes and 2 go with Shining Spear units. The spears are screened by units of War Walkers. I've been debating putting the non-council Farseers with units of Dark Eldar Reavers instead.
The outcome of this thread is very disappointing so far. I can see that a Jetseer Council has some viability, Pathfinders are good too, and shooting is an option. But our transports and tanks are screwed when charged by the enemy.
Thunderfrog wrote:Man.. Imagine a Unit of fortunes reavers..
Rerollable 5+ save followed by rerollable FNP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone know of a way to get Dark Eldar characters on Reaver Jetbikes?
Reavers are even better then that. Skilled rider give a +1 bonus to jink saves. So reavers have a 4+ when they move and a 3+ when they turbo. Godforbid if they are fortuned.... This sounds really fun. Dark eldar council lol. Slap haywire blasters on them and have the farseer doom and infantry (or MC) they shoot at with those poisoned 4+ shots and at a 12" rapid fire. I wonder how viable they are on the charge too?
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MandalorynOranj wrote:
Razgriz22 wrote:From what I have read, you either choose rule book or codex powers. Not an inbetween. When eldrad picks rule book powers he can take generate 4 from divination or telepathy or both. Farseers buy codex powers then replace them with rulebook powers if they want. I have a better description in my blog thats in my sig.
Aw that's a shame. Great blog btw, I'll be sure to start following that.
Thank you very much. Just started it for 6th. I really love this edition. Yea it changes stuff but I enjoy trying to figure out what is good now and new tactics. Makes things interesting.
Hulksmash wrote:So....Why is no one talking about Warp Spiders in conjuction with pre-measuring?
Warp spiders will be very good. Ive always liked them just never have had a chance to own any models of them. The exarch powerblades "ignore armour saves" so those didnt get nerfed. their ap- spinerets dont get any subtractions on the chart making them glancing MACHINES. I intend on buying these models as soon as I can. Of course finecast models just went up like $7.
Cypher's Sword wrote:I've always liked shining spears, overpriced or not, with this little boost I'm defiantly going to get some now. Do most people just buy them plastic jetbikes and put the riders from the set on? because metal jetbikes on little dinky plastic stands is just stupid.
3 Jetbikes cost 45$ , a Shining spear blister costs like 38, HAS THE JETBIKE KIT +METAL!
ALWAYS buy the Shining spear blister!!!!
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Hulksmash wrote:So....Why is no one talking about Warp Spiders in conjuction with pre-measuring?
can you explain a little more in detail what you mean? Pre Measuring as able to abuse assault moves behind cover or what?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thunderfrog wrote:Man.. Imagine a Unit of fortunes reavers..
Rerollable 5+ save followed by rerollable FNP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone know of a way to get Dark Eldar characters on Reaver Jetbikes?
Fortune allows you to re-roll FNP?
Fortune can be used on Dark Eldar units?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
MaxDamage wrote:Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
No, you can't Flat Out and Star Engine. They both have the same cost, giving up shooting.
If you cant Turbo boost and use star engines then what is the point of them? Im pretty sure you CAN use them in conjunction with turbo boosting, IF not then theres no point to ever using them.
Fortune allows you to re-roll "ANY failed saves" If FNP is a save, then it gets re rolled. From what I am seeing there is a discrepancy on if codex eldar psychic powers can be cast on dark eldar. In 6th edition is states battle brothers cast psychic powers on eachother as friendly units. I take that as meaning if they were your own units IE eldar units. Codex eldar states that you can cast fortune and guide on eldar units. So it seems mabye its a RAW vs RAI? IDK. But worst case scenario you cast it on the farseer and then have him join the dark eldar unit of choice and until next turn they are fortuned.
With Warp Spiders ability to move 2d6 in the assault phase in conjuction with being able to measure any distance at any time you've got the recipe for keeping them perfectly safe from CC or even Rapid Fire the majority of the time.
Basically move the unit within 11.9" of their target with your jump (naturally sometimes closer, sometimes farther), open fire, and then fall back 2d6. As long as you roll 6+ you'll be out of possible assault range and even if you're not then you snap fire and then withdraw with whatever is left to start all over again. And the sheer number of shots looks good for downing vehicles and even hurting flyers.
Yeah, they definitely look sweet. I tried them in my footdar list this weekend, but forgot about 6" deploy. This combined with a doom siren means I never got to fire. lol
Hulksmash wrote:So....Why is no one talking about Warp Spiders in conjuction with pre-measuring?
LOL. No kidding. Warpspiders are the shiznit now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Vyper squadrons are a little more survivable now. The new squadron rules buffs them a bit...as immobilizations don't destroy them anymore and also all hits have to go to the lead Vyper until it's destroyed.
Wave serpents got much better as fast moving gun boats that zoom Dire Avengers into position. Tossing out 7 Str6 shots a turn at 12" is mean.
Hulksmash wrote:So....Why is no one talking about Warp Spiders in conjuction with pre-measuring?
LOL. No kidding. Warpspiders are the shiznit now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Vyper squadrons are a little more survivable now. The new squadron rules buffs them a bit...as immobilizations don't destroy them anymore and also all hits have to go to the lead Vyper until it's destroyed.
Wave serpents got much better as fast moving gun boats that zoom Dire Avengers into position. Tossing out 7 Str6 shots a turn at 12" is mean.
With the energy shield in front of the serpent as well, it knocks the las cannon down to str 8 needing a roll of 4+ to glance it. As everyone seems to want to take las cannons now. They seem like mini falcons that dont take up heavy slots. Thats nice. They seem to be just as survivable as a falcon. BUT, at 2000 points we get 6 heavy slots. Seems like a great thing for eldar. Serpents dont have the pulse laser but still, both weapons at 12" movement is great. I will have an underslung cannon on every vehicle I can take. Vypers do seem like a decent unit now. Dare I say it, but with focused fire and the reduced overall cover saves, will flanking with star cannons be worth it?
MaxDamage wrote:Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
No, you can't Flat Out and Star Engine. They both have the same cost, giving up shooting.
If you cant Turbo boost and use star engines then what is the point of them? Im pretty sure you CAN use them in conjunction with turbo boosting, IF not then theres no point to ever using them.
The FAQ isn't real clear either. Basically asks if you are unable to shoot, can you still use star engines. The answer came back, as long as you dont shoot, embark/disembark passangers, you can use star engines in the shooting phase. A better question would have been can you move Flat Out and use Star Engines in the same shooting phase? Shrugs
MaxDamage wrote:Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
No, you can't Flat Out and Star Engine. They both have the same cost, giving up shooting.
If you cant Turbo boost and use star engines then what is the point of them? Im pretty sure you CAN use them in conjunction with turbo boosting, IF not then theres no point to ever using them.
The FAQ isn't real clear either. Basically asks if you are unable to shoot, can you still use star engines. The answer came back, as long as you dont shoot, embark/disembark passangers, you can use star engines in the shooting phase. A better question would have been can you move Flat Out and use Star Engines in the same shooting phase? Shrugs
Do star engines add to your flat out move? I feel tat that is what should happen. But then again that may be asking for too much.
Dark eldar HQ's dont ride jetbikes. Closest is the Baron on a skyboard. But eldar battle brothers ride them and can join a reaver group. At the worst the seer on the bike can doom the reavers targets as they bladevane or poison shot their targets.
MaxDamage wrote:Did Eldar fast skimmers get faster? 6" combat, 12" cruising. Flat out can move 18" due to being a fast skimmer, instead of just 12" for fast. So 30" for a Wave Serpent if it moves flat out?
Oh and star engines add another 12" to that? 42" sheesh
No, you can't Flat Out and Star Engine. They both have the same cost, giving up shooting.
If you cant Turbo boost and use star engines then what is the point of them? Im pretty sure you CAN use them in conjunction with turbo boosting, IF not then theres no point to ever using them.
The FAQ isn't real clear either. Basically asks if you are unable to shoot, can you still use star engines. The answer came back, as long as you dont shoot, embark/disembark passangers, you can use star engines in the shooting phase. A better question would have been can you move Flat Out and use Star Engines in the same shooting phase? Shrugs
The way ive always understood it is that your allowed to move 36" with star engines (5th edition).
If you cant use star engines in conunction with turbo boosting, then WHAT IS THE POINT of them?
Fortune allows you to re-roll "ANY failed saves" If FNP is a save, then it gets re rolled. From what I am seeing there is a discrepancy on if codex eldar psychic powers can be cast on dark eldar. In 6th edition is states battle brothers cast psychic powers on eachother as friendly units. I take that as meaning if they were your own units IE eldar units. Codex eldar states that you can cast fortune and guide on eldar units. So it seems mabye its a RAW vs RAI? IDK. But worst case scenario you cast it on the farseer and then have him join the dark eldar unit of choice and until next turn they are fortuned.
if not you can always put a farseer on a bike and put him in the unit. He casts fortune on himself and then the unit he joins gets the bonus.
I have a fast skimmer. He moves 12" during movement Phase, and flat out in shootng phase for an added 18" totaling 30" so far. The addition of star engines adds another 12" to the 18" turboboost having a grand total of a fast skimmer that turboboosts with star engines is 42" movement. Thats how I read.
The star engines adds 12" to your turboboost. So you have an effective turboboost of 18+12= 30". Move 12" turboboost 30". Total 42" move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exergy wrote:
Razgriz22 wrote:@ smitty
Fortune allows you to re-roll "ANY failed saves" If FNP is a save, then it gets re rolled. From what I am seeing there is a discrepancy on if codex eldar psychic powers can be cast on dark eldar. In 6th edition is states battle brothers cast psychic powers on eachother as friendly units. I take that as meaning if they were your own units IE eldar units. Codex eldar states that you can cast fortune and guide on eldar units. So it seems mabye its a RAW vs RAI? IDK. But worst case scenario you cast it on the farseer and then have him join the dark eldar unit of choice and until next turn they are fortuned.
if not you can always put a farseer on a bike and put him in the unit. He casts fortune on himself and then the unit he joins gets the bonus.
Yes that is correct. But the farseer must be alone (not joined with) the dark eldar unit at the time of casting (which is at the start of the eldar turn). Then he is fortuned prior to the movement phase where he then moves within 2" of the dark eldar unit and then upon joining them he shares the power with them.
EDIT EDIT EDIT******Scratch all of that. In the USR section under Independant character, it states that an IC can NOT join a unit and share their benefit or penalties of effects.
rodgers37 wrote:Basically from reading this discussion, all Eldars rubbish units are now good. And mechdar, the previous 'good' Eldar build is now not very good?
That is semi correct generalization. The way I look at it is that there will be more hybrid lists now. Mech with footdar drawing from the benefits of both. my 1500 and 2000 lists I just worked on and am about to post up on my blog have a more hybrid feel and less reliance on all mech or all foot. I hope to test them soon.
rodgers37 wrote:Basically from reading this discussion, all Eldars rubbish units are now good. And mechdar, the previous 'good' Eldar build is now not very good?
No, most of they're terrible units are still terrible, such as Guardians, Wraithguard, Banshees, Reapers, Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Pathfinders, and Phoenix Lords. Some previously mediocre units are now terrible, such as Dire Avengers.
But yes, Mechdar is bad. Mech anything is bad.
Some of the good units got even better though, such as Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Falcons, and Guardian Jetbikes.
rodgers37 wrote:Basically from reading this discussion, all Eldars rubbish units are now good. And mechdar, the previous 'good' Eldar build is now not very good?
No, most of they're terrible units are still terrible, such as Guardians, Wraithguard, Banshees, Reapers, Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, Pathfinders, and Phoenix Lords. Some previously mediocre units are now terrible, such as Dire Avengers.
But yes, Mechdar is bad. Mech anything is bad.
Some of the good units got even better though, such as Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Falcons, and Guardian Jetbikes.
I have to slightly disagree with you on some of that.
Guardians are really bad now. Not that they got worse but rapid fire got better and kills them hard. Wraitguard I believe can be used very well. In a serpent to cover distance or footslogged. Wraithcannons have a great chance to glance or penn. AP2 is wonderful. They didnt get better but they are just more usable in 6th. T6 is strong in my opinion. 3+ re-rollable armour is also great(fortune). Im not saying there are a staple of every eldar army out there, but they are definitely usable. Banshees are now even harder t use. Overwatch also can dwindle a few of them on the way in :-(. Reapers can focus fire to try and help themselves out getting through cover saves. Most cover now is 5+ so itmakes them a little more usable as well. Also at 2000 pts you have 6 heavy slots to work with so its easier to fit them in. Shining spears seem very situational still but got a slight boost. They seem to have changed from terrible to only bad now. Hawks also seems still difficult to use well but they carry haywire grenades so there may be some use for them, but I still wont have any in my army. Phoenix lords are expensive and got hit with the ap3 power weapon nerf for the most part. So I will still not take them. Pathfinders seem good on paper now. I plan to test that in a game. Get them in ruins if you can or in your FOC fortification. Still weak to flamers but they can pick out individual units on hits of 6. Conveniently they also penetrate armour on a roll of a 6 as well. Boom Headshot? Falcons can no longer capture objectives with DAVU from what I have read. But they can shoot both guns and move 12". Warp spiders are still sweet and now lost their ap- hindrance. Autarchs are still good but their reserve roll ability is slightly overshadowed but the boost in reserves in the rulebook. But they are still cheap fusion gun toting bad ass's. I think the avatar is much more usable now. Wraithlord have an extra S10 attack due to hammer and anvil. Im going to try a bare bones wraitgurad with a sword in my next game to see how much attention he draws.
Overall I hope to see a larger grouop of lists for eldar. Not just mechdar. Hopefully some unique hybrid lists show up.
Hulksmash wrote:With Warp Spiders ability to move 2d6 in the assault phase in conjuction with being able to measure any distance at any time you've got the recipe for keeping them perfectly safe from CC or even Rapid Fire the majority of the time.
Basically move the unit within 11.9" of their target with your jump (naturally sometimes closer, sometimes farther), open fire, and then fall back 2d6. As long as you roll 6+ you'll be out of possible assault range and even if you're not then you snap fire and then withdraw with whatever is left to start all over again. And the sheer number of shots looks good for downing vehicles and even hurting flyers.
But remember that any large blast or fast moving unit will end their lives pretty quickly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some of the good units got even better though, such as Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Falcons, and Guardian Jetbikes.
Okay, you've forgotten Rangers/Pathfinders. Now build an army around these ''good'' units.
I thought banshees were great in 5th ed! Stick them in a WS with a doomseer and off they went, killing termies and MEQs with good old power weapons. Admittedly, now they can't really kill termies that much, or chapter masters with relic armour.
You don't play tag with fast units like TWC or Nob bikers. Any other fast units and they should do pretty well pulling down a significant number between their shooting and "overwatch". You might lose a few if it's a fast dedicated CC unit that gets in but you can then withdraw using the highest initiative in the unit (so the Exarch) and do it again.
As for large blasts there aren't many large AP3 blasts out there and if you're facing them then space out. They aren't you're only unit after all.
You don't play tag with fast units like TWC or Nob bikers. Any other fast units and they should do pretty well pulling down a significant number between their shooting and "overwatch". You might lose a few if it's a fast dedicated CC unit that gets in but you can then withdraw using the highest initiative in the unit (so the Exarch) and do it again.
So you suggest a tag team with some very fast cc unit. Not a bad idea.
I'm thinking of maybe using my Spiders just for board control. Keep them behind a piece of terrain that they could jump back behind, and no enemy light vehicle's gonna want to ge within 19~ inches of it. That should be a good way to help protect objectives.
I believe a group of spiders could be a solid addition to almost every eldar army. I dont think it could ever hurt you or be a waste of points to do so. They are one of our few units who deepstrike and our only good unit who can do so.
If you run a unit of warlocks with Karandas (or any phoenix lord I guess since they all get their armor saves vs. power weapons now, but Karandas is a good choice) then, because warlocks are all characters, you can put Karandas at the back and take 'look out sir' rolls to pass AP3+ hits back to him for an armor save. Add a fortune seer to the unit and just run em across the table.
Flavius Infernus wrote:Something Stelek pointed out on his blog:
If you run a unit of warlocks with Karandas (or any phoenix lord I guess since they all get their armor saves vs. power weapons now, but Karandas is a good choice) then, because warlocks are all characters, you can put Karandas at the back and take 'look out sir' rolls to pass AP3+ hits back to him for an armor save. Add a fortune seer to the unit and just run em across the table.
So you run this squad across the board and then what?
Stelek has an idea though. If you use a fortuned IC, you can make the unit very tough to remove from shooting via one direction. I would go with an archon with a shadow field over Karandas and a 35/36 invlun save with a 2+ look out sir would be brutal.
While there are counters (namely moving so you shoot the rest of the squad and not Karandas/Archon first), its a good tactic vs slow moving armies that can't shift their line of attack.
Stelek has some good ideas. Hes got the personality of sandpaper, and if you can stomach the negativity seeping from his blog you can pick up a few nuggets.
How about allies? DE is definitely a choice to look at.
Then an HQ and one troop unit are mandatory. An Archon with shadowfield has already been discussed. A cheaper option would be a Haemi that hands its pain token to a Beastmaster unit. Thoughts.
2 squads of 20 DE warriors can make an excellent block for holding back field objectives, and providing a lot of poisoned shooting.
Basically you could recreate a foot'dar list with DE elements in place of the crappy eldar troop choices.
I know very little of DE, but I've been pulling out my harlies for 6th. What if you threw Lelith in with a squad of 8-10, all with kisses and a Shadowseer? Would that not be a decently effective CC squad, or am I recalling Lelith as more useful than she really is?
labmouse42 wrote:DE/Eldar have great synergy iMHO.
2 squads of 20 DE warriors can make an excellent block for holding back field objectives, and providing a lot of poisoned shooting.
Basically you could recreate a foot'dar list with DE elements in place of the crappy eldar troop choices.
Well, 20 DE Warriors with 2 splinter cannons would be an option. Two such squads become rather expensive.
However, I'd be willing to invest into a Beastmaster unit.
Flavius Infernus wrote:Something Stelek pointed out on his blog:
If you run a unit of warlocks with Karandas (or any phoenix lord I guess since they all get their armor saves vs. power weapons now, but Karandas is a good choice) then, because warlocks are all characters, you can put Karandas at the back and take 'look out sir' rolls to pass AP3+ hits back to him for an armor save. Add a fortune seer to the unit and just run em across the table.
So you run this squad across the board and then what?
Heh, good one.
I'd argue that Karandas is still a good unit-killer. 7 str8 power fist attacks on the charge is not a small thing.
Also, since everybody in the unit is a character, they all get precision strike. It doesn't work with destructor unfortunately, but it does work in HtH.
And you can deal with challenges in any way you want, either sending Karandas up if you want, or just sacrificing a warlock to occupy the opponent's uber-character every round.
Flavius Infernus wrote:Something Stelek pointed out on his blog:
If you run a unit of warlocks with Karandas (or any phoenix lord I guess since they all get their armor saves vs. power weapons now, but Karandas is a good choice) then, because warlocks are all characters, you can put Karandas at the back and take 'look out sir' rolls to pass AP3+ hits back to him for an armor save. Add a fortune seer to the unit and just run em across the table.
So you run this squad across the board and then what?
Heh, good one.
I'd argue that Karandas is still a good unit-killer. 7 str8 power fist attacks on the charge is not a small thing.
Also, since everybody in the unit is a character, they all get precision strike. It doesn't work with destructor unfortunately, but it does work in HtH.
And you can deal with challenges in any way you want, either sending Karandas up if you want, or just sacrificing a warlock to occupy the opponent's uber-character every round.
Well, Karandras has no inv. save and costs an apple and an egg. As said elsewhere, I'd ieventually nvest into an Archon. But mine often loses the shadowfield on the first roll to wound. Remember it will go down after 3.5 rolls to wound.
Well, Karandras has no inv. save and costs an apple and an egg. As said elsewhere, I'd ieventually nvest into an Archon. But mine often loses the shadowfield on the first roll to wound. Remember it will go down after 3.5 rolls to wound.
Do phoenix lords even need invulnerable saves now? I think this is a change that makes them more worthwhile.
They get their armor saves against power weapons (except axes). They get 'look out sir' against hammers and fists, and even if they fail that, they have eternal warrior. Unless I'm misunderstanding a rule, it sounds to me like they have to fail a 2+ roll 3 times in order to die.
labmouse42 wrote:DE/Eldar have great synergy iMHO.
2 squads of 20 DE warriors can make an excellent block for holding back field objectives, and providing a lot of poisoned shooting.
Basically you could recreate a foot'dar list with DE elements in place of the crappy eldar troop choices.
Well, 20 DE Warriors with 2 splinter cannons would be an option. Two such squads become rather expensive.
However, I'd be willing to invest into a Beastmaster unit.
200 points per squad. That's not to bad for throwing out 30 poisoned shots per squad at 24" when standing still, or 26 shots when moving. That's on a per-squad basis.
I expect that in 6th we will see more foot infantry, and therefore those poisoned shots will have a bit more use on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flavius Infernus wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Karandras has no inv. save and costs an apple and an egg. As said elsewhere, I'd ieventually nvest into an Archon. But mine often loses the shadowfield on the first roll to wound. Remember it will go down after 3.5 rolls to wound.
Do phoenix lords even need invulnerable saves now? I think this is a change that makes them more worthwhile.
They get their armor saves against power weapons (except axes). They get 'look out sir' against hammers and fists, and even if they fail that, they have eternal warrior. Unless I'm misunderstanding a rule, it sounds to me like they have to fail a 2+ roll 3 times in order to die.
And with fortune that 2+ becomes a 35/36 chance of succeeding, or 0.972222222%
Well, Karandras has no inv. save and costs an apple and an egg. As said elsewhere, I'd ieventually nvest into an Archon. But mine often loses the shadowfield on the first roll to wound. Remember it will go down after 3.5 rolls to wound.
Do phoenix lords even need invulnerable saves now? I think this is a change that makes them more worthwhile.
They get their armor saves against power weapons (except axes). They get 'look out sir' against hammers and fists, and even if they fail that, they have eternal warrior. Unless I'm misunderstanding a rule, it sounds to me like they have to fail a 2+ roll 3 times in order to die.
True.
In fact, Karandras can be more durable than a shadowfield, at least its more predictable.
However, he has to watch out for AP 1/2 (shooting) weapons which will still be around due to the new armor penetrating table and the bonus AP 1/2 weapons will get. So just in case he's targeted by a lascannon, he should better make use of 'look out sir' to transfer the wound to a Warlock.
Not sure if it's mentioned yet but vibro cannons seem to be a bit more useful now against tanks with the auto glance, though will depend largely on how much we still see tanks in 6th edition
ironicsilence wrote:Not sure if it's mentioned yet but vibro cannons seem to be a bit more useful now against tanks with the auto glance, though will depend largely on how much we still see tanks in 6th edition
Well, if you take 3 of them and can hide them completely, they are really useful unless there are no tanks in range.
Flavius Infernus wrote:Something Stelek pointed out on his blog:
If you run a unit of warlocks with Karandas (or any phoenix lord I guess since they all get their armor saves vs. power weapons now, but Karandas is a good choice) then, because warlocks are all characters, you can put Karandas at the back and take 'look out sir' rolls to pass AP3+ hits back to him for an armor save. Add a fortune seer to the unit and just run em across the table.
So you run this squad across the board and then what?
Heh, good one.
I'd argue that Karandas is still a good unit-killer. 7 str8 power fist attacks on the charge is not a small thing.
Also, since everybody in the unit is a character, they all get precision strike. It doesn't work with destructor unfortunately, but it does work in HtH.
And you can deal with challenges in any way you want, either sending Karandas up if you want, or just sacrificing a warlock to occupy the opponent's uber-character every round.
I think fuegan is more worthwile. He strikes at inititive with something that is AP2
I don't know. I find it kinda a wash. Both are AP2 (fist vs. MC rules) but Karandras is St8 vs Fuegan's St5. Fuegan strikes first and FnP but only has 4-5 attacks vs. 6-7. Fuegan does have a ranged melta shot but I expect to be running quite a bit. But Karandras does add stealth which makes him solid with a unit of non-seer council models.....
So basically a wash.
Though for me I see more of a use for Karandras as he seems to be a little more of a force multiplier than Fuegan....
Suppose you take a unit of vibrocannons and add a warlock and have the warlock man one of the guns (which is a good idea anyway to get the BS4 on that die roll) and suppose you fire the battery at some infantry units and the warlock's to-hit die comes up a 6.
Do you get to (precision strike) allocate the wounds from all d6 wounds scored on every unit hit by the vibrocannon battery?
I would guess so as there is no caveat or maximum number of precision allocation shots you get as a character. it just says for each 6 you roll to hit.
Flavius Infernus wrote:Here's an interesting question.
Suppose you take a unit of vibrocannons and add a warlock and have the warlock man one of the guns (which is a good idea anyway to get the BS4 on that die roll) and suppose you fire the battery at some infantry units and the warlock's to-hit die comes up a 6.
Do you get to (precision strike) allocate the wounds from all d6 wounds scored on every unit hit by the vibrocannon battery?
Lol this idea is great. If it works I can see the opponent going uhhh what?
Flavius Infernus wrote:Here's an interesting question.
Suppose you take a unit of vibrocannons and add a warlock and have the warlock man one of the guns (which is a good idea anyway to get the BS4 on that die roll) and suppose you fire the battery at some infantry units and the warlock's to-hit die comes up a 6.
Do you get to (precision strike) allocate the wounds from all d6 wounds scored on every unit hit by the vibrocannon battery?
Lol this idea is great. If it works I can see the opponent going uhhh what?
I see them mostly not caring about a d6AP- hits. Maybe they'll say something like "wow, that almost made all the points you spent on that unit worth it, almost".
Sometimes, the player has the choice of adding leaders or additional rnodels to the crew of an Artillery unit. These models are part of the crew in all respects and can operate the guns as normal, even if they are otherwise slightly different from the rest of the crew.
Independent Characters that join the unit, however, do not count as crew and cannot operate the guns.
BRB P.46
Also,
Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.
BRB P.63
Seems like it's allowed on all counts.
Something to keep in mind with Vibrocannons..
When reading the entry it's pretty clear that a battery of three vibrocannons can only glance a vehicle once per shooting attempt, much like how each successive hit vs infantry adds extra S but not extra wounds.
Seeing a decent amount of poo-pooing on the vibrocannons today. I think a unit of 2 with a warlock could be a pretty great addition if you have a heavy slot to spare. With that set up you have a pretty good chance to hit, and don't forget that you can hide it out of line of sight, making it impossible to shoot, and, in the new edition, impossible to charge. This set up comes to 125pts.
If you set it far enough to one side you can even draw the line to cover multiple vehicles/units in one shot.. I suspect that now that immobilized results no longer destroy a vehicle in a squadron, you're going to see a lot more of those as well.. in theory a vibrocannon is a great tool against a pack of tanks in a squadron.
You also have a pretty cool way to ace that vehicle that's hobbling along with a single hull point left... instead of chancing for a high penetration roll, you can use your spare scatter lasers to dish out some wounds on infantry and allow the vibrocannon to execute it.
Falconlance wrote:Seeing a decent amount of poo-pooing on the vibrocannons today. I think a unit of 2 with a warlock could be a pretty great addition if you have a heavy slot to spare. With that set up you have a pretty good chance to hit, and don't forget that you can hide it out of line of sight, making it impossible to shoot, and, in the new edition, impossible to charge. This set up comes to 125pts.
If you set it far enough to one side you can even draw the line to cover multiple vehicles/units in one shot.. I suspect that now that immobilized results no longer destroy a vehicle in a squadron, you're going to see a lot more of those as well.. in theory a vibrocannon is a great tool against a pack of tanks in a squadron.
You also have a pretty cool way to ace that vehicle that's hobbling along with a single hull point left... instead of chancing for a high penetration roll, you can use your spare scatter lasers to dish out some wounds on infantry and allow the vibrocannon to execute it.
I agree, I was just pointing out it's a single glance. There's three things I don't like about the vibrocannon.
1) It's expensive in cash. It's 25$ for a single vibrocannon and two guardians. You still have to find a warlock as well. So assuming you buy the 40$ box with 4 warlocks, It's about 60$ per vibrocannon squad with 2 guns and a warlock. And it's actually hard to find them used considering how crappy they were before. No one bought em.
2) For the same points, I could have another Fire Prism. I used a couple of them in tandem today, and I was still pleased with them being able to shoot pretty much until they were dead. (Note, @2000 points when heavy slots become plentiful I don't think it's a big deal. Thats probably the only time I would take them)
3) Glances are a double edged sword. They still allow full-on function of the enemy. So while a VC emplacement is great for hitting a couple vehicles and knocking out that last HP, they won't reduce enemy effectiveness unless they score a kill.
Early on I considered running 18 of the buggers.. that was before I learned they capped at 1 glance per encampment. Now I think I'd be okay with 2-4 Fire Prisms and 2-4 125 point emplacements.
Haha, can't argue about the models themselves being expensive.. and actually they aren't even table legal. They are supposed to have a gun model and two guardian models; the new kit has a gun model with a guardian atop, and a single guardian model.
Falconlance wrote:Haha, can't argue about the models themselves being expensive.. and actually they aren't even table legal. They are supposed to have a gun model and two guardian models; the new kit has a gun model with a guardian atop, and a single guardian model.
The model doesn't even seem to come with ammo crates or anything to take the position of the 2nd gunner.
Will have to build something if I ever get any.
As for artillery Warlocks, what's the best power to give them?
As for artillery Warlocks, what's the best power to give them?
I've played around with giving the warlock conceal. But embolden is probably best, both because it's cheap and because they're only Ld8 and the units are often hugging a table edge. Keeping them out of LoS is the best defense.
But think about how tough a support battery is. A battery of 2 guns is a T7, 9-wound (with a warlock) 3+ save unit that can get cover easier than a monstrous creature. Three guns is 13 wounds. They would dissolve to assault, but very hard to displace from cover with shooting alone.
A couple of 2 or 3 gun batteries of d-cannons (with the whole template now counting as str10) in cover near the center of the table would be pretty scary.
Falconlance wrote:I was under the impression that D-Cannons were strength X, and followed the same anti armor rules as wraithcannons?
True. However, as said by Flavius, these cannons need to deployed closer to the enemy due to their lower range. Then it might be difficult to hide them completely.
wuestenfux wrote:Well, I read Stelek's comments on the new Eldar. He's pretty much right. Eldar is almost dead. The buffs do not balance the nerfs.
I do not believe this. Will Eldar be winning every tournament? No. But they are far from dead or unplayable.
They are not unplayable but unwinnable in stronger tournaments.
Seems a bit broad. How about you let a couple of 6th edition tournaments play out first? Bikers got strong. DE are strong allies. Pathfinders are pretty ridiculous too.
Eldrad is borderline OP now.
Taking him with 4 divination powers and a regular farseer with doom and fortune is ridiculous.
"Pathfinders are pretty ridiculous too."
I still don't understand what people see in them. At least when I look at all the rules on paper.
I guess I will have to play few times with them. Precision strikes are not that hot with 6 then 4+ (sniper) and another 4+ (LoS), plus possible cover. It is a nice boon but half of unit worth 24 ppm wounding on 4+?
8 guys (almost 200 points) need 3 rounds of shooting for this to happen. I'm not that impressed. Something I'm missing?
Macok wrote:"Pathfinders are pretty ridiculous too."
I still don't understand what people see in them. At least when I look at all the rules on paper.
I guess I will have to play few times with them. Precision strikes are not that hot with 6 then 4+ (sniper) and another 4+ (LoS), plus possible cover. It is a nice boon but half of unit worth 24 ppm wounding on 4+?
8 guys (almost 200 points) need 3 rounds of shooting for this to happen. I'm not that impressed. Something I'm missing?
Nice for sniping special weapons, not so great for sniping sergeants/characters.
It's very random. One practice game I took out 7 special weapons through precision shots with 2 squads of 5 (not counting all the kills I got with normal rolls and/or AP1 shots). The next I never rolled a 6 to hit.
If you get lucky it can basically strip a squad of its special weapons in one round of shooting.
Couple points on Rangers.. ( I actually dont pay for the PF upgrade.)
Shooting is great and all, especially seeing as the Primaris power for Divination is Reroll misses. Then you have 24" range to cast Doom and the new power that rerolls successful saves.. AND a new power that gives Ignore Cover. ( I know that seems random, but you statistically get 2 of the 3 new ones every time you bring Eldrad. He gets 4 rolls.)
Note: I have brought a 100 pt defense line every game. Putting the Rangers there is 3+ cover, 2 + for Pathfinders. When going to ground now ( 2+ cover behind the ADL) you can still shoot snapshots the next turn. (So you still hit on 6's, which you will be rerolling)
I think Eldar should always consider both Eldrad and a regular Farseer at 1500 pts or more.
I say always bring 10 rangers from here on out. The new trick with Eldar, thats actually an old trick, is to make sure you dance your psyker powers effectively. Get them to the right units and we have some sick comboes. The only real loss is that Prescience is worthless on a Fire Prism, as it doesn't reroll scatter dice like guide does.
Edit: Also, consider the role of Rangers/Pathfinders. They are a 190/240 point unit for 10 that dont require a transport and generally have a better save than your DA's. They sit on home objectives REALLY well. For more exposure, you could run 2 five manners, but I like a mass of 10 better. You just can't let them get assaulted or flamered... which is where the Quadgun comes into play. This last game it killed 5 DSing flamers over 2 turns and tagged 4 wounds from 2 Demon Princes in others.
2 squads of DA's in WS, 2 Fire Prisms, 1 larger or 2 smaller FD squads dependant on points. It's been working just fine. Hell, I even had a solo wraith lord in there just to absorb some points.
Lots of STR 6 has been doing just fine for Anti-tank btw.
However, I think I see where this is going. Your going to look at a list and pick it apart via the interwebs and what it says in playable, probably with a lot of Steleks input.
I won't take that bait, I'm just going to tell you they've been working fine for me and that I have every intention of qualifying for the Feast of Blades.
I'll be sure to post my B-reps once my qualifier is complete.
I also do not comprehend the Pathfinder love. I get the ranger love.
Rangers synergize with Sniper very very well. All of their AP1 hits are also precision hits. All they need after this is a Doom'd target. This also works great because you can have a farseer out doing something else (fortuning a WG block, the avatar, etc) and he can toss Doom on some marine unit and forget about it.
Pathfinders actually get no more benefit from Sniper than rangers do - instead, half of their AP1 hits will not be precision, and will get stuck on the closest trooper.
Keep in mind that by removing special weapon troops (dev. ML marines, tac-squad heavies, etc), you indirectly buff the durability of your own units specifically, high-T, poor save units like wraithlords and heavy-support platforms, and all AV12 targets.
The pathfinder upgrade is defensive upgrade, and that is pretty much it. The offensive bonus for the upgrade is minimal.
In 5th, rangers outshot pathfinders, on a point-for-point basis. This is only more true in 6th as pathfinders cost more but get marginal returns for the cost w/r/t the Sniper rule.
So, home Obj camping ranger units combined with a doom-seer are probably the way forward. This combines well with what was said above, in that eldrad rolling all-divination, and a doom/fortuneseer is probably the optimal psyker load out for eldar armies in the 1500-1999pt range. (by the way, wraithguard with a fortune'd 4++ and foreboding? bwahahahahahaha)
I'm going to be trying large units of D-cannons as soon as I can. It fits right in with the wraithwall scheme, which is controlling your opponent's movement by removal of choices. The only way to remove eldar high-T units is via assault. Combine this with VoT, 2+ cover harlequins for Eldar victory.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I thought banshees were great in 5th ed! Stick them in a WS with a doomseer and off they went, killing termies and MEQs with good old power weapons. Admittedly, now they can't really kill termies that much, or chapter masters with relic armour.
That's like a 500 point squad that would kill 8.25 marines provided they got the charge and were full strength and you were able to get doom off and they didn't have an invulnerable save. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to land a decent charge out of a wave serpent without exposing it's rear armor, where it is incredibly vulnerable (AV10, no energy field). You're going to be losing on a serious chunk of firepower taking that unit, something Eldar already has issues with.
Once they kill something and are out in the open they are hideously fragile.
with the support of 2+ armor now I've been looking at using phoenix lords and what groups they would work well with. While they can't work with other aspects, there are units that they can team up with very well.
Maugan Ra with a squad of pathfinders and a fortune seer. Ra can be out in front with his massive 2+armor, and if something ignores that comes your way, look out sir with a 2+ cover save pathfinder. Fortune you can re-roll, and you have added to your shooting capability of the squad with 6-7 rending shots.
Harlequins make great escorts for those close combat lords. The new rules for veil of tears gives you a squad that can look out sir and provide at least a 4+ cover save. Conversely if someone snipes at your shadow seer you can push him out of the way with Feugan and take his armor save and feel no pain. Karandras now has a 5+ save everywhere but close combat, and once you get there you can generally challenge the only guys that will be ignoring armor.
Wraithguard paired up with Jain Zar and a conceal lock. A wave serpent delivers them quickly, now opponents have the unenviable options to shoot a toughness 6 squad with 5+ invul saves, or charge a squad with a massively powerful close combat character. (really hope they faq executioners to be ap2 with no initiative loss like the necron war scythe.)
Still not big on Baharroth or Asurman. Jain Zar is not my favorite until they fix executioners. The others though I really quite like in the new edition.
Vibro cannons: I think vibro cannons actually do more then one glancing hit per battery, although this would depend on the number that actually hit. A target with an armor value hit by a vibro cannon. I interpret that as being every cannon that hits causes a glance. I roll three dice and two hit that's two glances. Any hits on units in addition are just gravy.
Well, I still believe that PL's are too expensive for what they can achieve.
The example with Karandras leading a squad of Storm Guardians posted by Stelek is nice. But when this unit moves across the board, it may happen that the enemy can concentrate fire on the Guardians.
Or he moves a Rhino in between K. and the disembarked squad so that the squad cannot see K. and so can shoot the Guardians.
Since when is this Stelek the god of all Eldar knowledge? 6th Edition has been out for what, 2 weeks? We can't possibly know that our team is no longer winnable. As ThunderFrog said, wait till batreps are out. Don't write anything completely out until it is actually tried a few times. If you want to ditch Eldar because Stelek says they are crap now, then none of us will care.
And Thunderfrog, I really like the Idea of sticking Eldrad to the divination powers. The randomness just still scares me. I have such a hard time giving up doom guide and fortune. Im Just taking advantage of being able to take Eldrad, a farseer, and the avatar at 2000 pts. That and having more then 3 heavy support since those slots were so fought over before.
Razgriz22 wrote:Since when is this Stelek the god of all Eldar knowledge? 6th Edition has been out for what, 2 weeks? We can't possibly know that our team is no longer winnable. As ThunderFrog said, wait till batreps are out. Don't write anything completely out until it is actually tried a few times. If you want to ditch Eldar because Stelek says they are crap now, then none of us will care.
In fact, Stelek has not said that Elldar is crap or unwinnable.
My apology, That was just what it seemed from what you were saying.
The only point I am trying to make is that we can't just throw Eldar in dumps just yet. There seems to be plenty of viable options in 6th for them to try and test.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on the ranger/ pathfinder debate... I will be starting to take them in my list as a replacement for guardians that I had doing similar things. I dont think they are the most amaizng troop choice available, but when compared to guardians, the are gold. Now about the upgrade being worth it or not to pathfinders... thats a tough one. Is the scout, ignore difficult terrain, +2 on cover saves (shrouded is the new term i think?), and AP1 on 5-6 roll worth it? Im still on the fence over it. I think I'll play a few games with both and see if the extra 50 point is worth it else where or invested with the pathfinders.
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I read Stelek's comments on the new Eldar. He's pretty much right. Eldar is almost dead. The buffs do not balance the nerfs.
They are not unplayable but unwinnable in stronger tournaments.
I guess Stelek was only responsible for the top part. The second assertion was your own.
By the way, I think even Stelek could approve of this unit.
Eldrad, Farseer with SS/RoWit/Fortune and Doom.
8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.
Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
Getting this unit in combat is just curtains, even against terminators. 38 attacks that reroll misses and reroll failed 2's to wound and force the opponent ( Well, with a better than 4/7 chance to get this power and assuming they fail their 6+ deny the witch) to reroll successful saves?
Thats an average of 33 hits and about 6 dead termies, not counting Eldrads staff which ignores armor saves but isnt a power weapon.
Razgriz22 wrote:My apology, That was just what it seemed from what you were saying.
The only point I am trying to make is that we can't just throw Eldar in dumps just yet. There seems to be plenty of viable options in 6th for them to try and test.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on the ranger/ pathfinder debate... I will be starting to take them in my list as a replacement for guardians that I had doing similar things. I dont think they are the most amaizng troop choice available, but when compared to guardians, the are gold. Now about the upgrade being worth it or not to pathfinders... thats a tough one. Is the scout, ignore difficult terrain, +2 on cover saves (shrouded is the new term i think?), and AP1 on 5-6 roll worth it? Im still on the fence over it. I think I'll play a few games with both and see if the extra 50 point is worth it else where or invested with the pathfinders.
Okay.
Pathfinders are still the way to go. Their damage output might be higher than in the 5th ed since we'll see more footslogging units. But watch out for cover-save ignoring weapons from deep striking or outflanking units, Whirlwind, or Thunder cannon.
Took rangers today - combined with doom, they were quite effective. Even in my second game vs. orks without doom, fairly effective. The combination of poorer cover saves and allocate + ap1 to wound on 6s is very powerful.
I can see taking the pathfinder upgrade.... sometimes. Larger units in larger games, i think it is worth it. When playing north of 1750, its probably a requirement, just so they can weather the generally stronger fire coming their way. But in 1000-1750, regular rangers are probably fine.
Area terrain + rangers is still a 2 up cover with go-to-ground.
Used pathfinders in a blob with Maugan Ra and Eldrad. Also Vibro cannons today.
In a fight with Tau after three turns of 90 percent of the tau army shooting at the snipestar... I lost one pathfinder, and one wound on Ra. Ra was in front soaking up most shots with his 2+ armor. Anything AP2 was looked out to the pathfinders with their 3+ cover. (I had no ruins to hide them in, just a bunch of rocks.)
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.
Second game I played, my IG and Tau opponents were so worried about the vibro cannons they sat in the corners with all their tanks, pinned in and unable to really get at us. My team mate and I were really able to attack where we liked.
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I read Stelek's comments on the new Eldar. He's pretty much right. Eldar is almost dead. The buffs do not balance the nerfs.
They are not unplayable but unwinnable in stronger tournaments.
I guess Stelek was only responsible for the top part. The second assertion was your own.
By the way, I think even Stelek could approve of this unit.
Eldrad, Farseer with SS/RoWit/Fortune and Doom.
8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.
Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
Getting this unit in combat is just curtains, even against terminators. 38 attacks that reroll misses and reroll failed 2's to wound and force the opponent ( Well, with a better than 4/7 chance to get this power and assuming they fail their 6+ deny the witch) to reroll successful saves?
Thats an average of 33 hits and about 6 dead termies, not counting Eldrads staff which ignores armor saves but isnt a power weapon.
I'd love to see that on the table! How many points though for all that? Only problem I see is fast armies dodging around it. Granted they wouldnt be able to kill it, but be able to snag objectives faster. But still that unit is a walked ball of death.
Can someone please link this supposed post of Steleks that implies Eldar are now somewhat less then viable? I can't find anything newer then 2009 of his using the search function.
I'd love to see that on the table! How many points though for all that? Only problem I see is fast armies dodging around it. Granted they wouldnt be able to kill it, but be able to snag objectives faster. But still that unit is a walked ball of death.
836 points. I still have room for 2 aegis defense lines, rangers, FD in serpents, DA in serpents, and 2 fire prisms.
I'd love to see that on the table! How many points though for all that? Only problem I see is fast armies dodging around it. Granted they wouldnt be able to kill it, but be able to snag objectives faster. But still that unit is a walked ball of death.
836 points. I still have room for 2 aegis defense lines, rangers, FD in serpents, DA in serpents, and 2 fire prisms.
Now that seems like a solid list. I hope you get a chance t run it as I'd like to hear how it plays. My planned lists to try out are in the link in my sig. Let me know what you think about it. I hopefully will be trying one of them tomorrow if people show up to play at my local game store.
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Well, I don't like this tactics. Footslogging is a slow way to die.
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Well, I don't like this tactics. Footslogging is a slow way to die.
seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.
You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.
seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.
You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.
Eldrad. Still overpriced. If you really have a hard-on for Invisibility, sure grab Eldrad and hope you get it. I’ll take Divination Is Good On A Normal Farseer for 500, Alex.
Really? Stelek is an idiot. Eldrad was basically the codex's best buy for for all of 5th edition (trailed closely by suicide fire dragons), and he still is.
Stuff like this:
Having a Warlock with enhance is critical for Guardians. F*** the rest.
makes me wonder if he even read the codex.
Rangers. Yeah yeah, oooh cover saves! Precision! They still suck unless you bring a big unit
I have empirical evidence from a game yesterday that you don't need to spend 240 points to get rangers to work out.
And this:
Dark Reapers. Still crap. S5 AP3 means dick when you can just torrent marines to death.
The eldar codex has real trouble torrenting anyone to death, as the only unit which can really do it anymore are AV10 vehicles taking a HS slot.
And how you can say that about dark reapers and then say this about wraithlords:
Wraithlord. He’s missile bait and las/plas bait. Bring if you want to field some kind of MC list, but since you can’t ally with anyone with access to MC’s in any but 1 slot, kind of pointless.
I mean, this is pretty clearly the age of foot units. As in, those missle launchers are coming from dev squads. So in one sentence you poo-poo an eldar unit designed to take out MEQ from 48" away, and in the next sentence you s*** all over a unit because those same MEQ squads can kill it. Does he have any concept how warhammer even works?
Its pretty clear how this works. Stelek goes from memory, forms a bunch of off-the-cuff not-actually-tested and poorly thought out opinions, and posts them. Then a bunch of people take them as gospel despite the fact that no one has ever verified they are true. Wtf Ever.
Maybe I just really love Eldrad, OR MAYBE he is just damn good. I take offense to someone saying he is crap due to how much of a champ he is. Yea yea everyone has different experiences but come on, unless you choose to use him horribly.... he cant be bad. I played against space wolves and he and a group of guardians took on a pack of terminators and Logan himself. Yea I didnt want that to happen but I had no choice. Eldrad held them off almost single handed until reinforcements arrived. I've had people hate him so much that they spent the entire game trying to kill him and his unit focusing all firepower available to him with no avail. He just rocks and I will not believe anything but that.
Razgriz22 wrote:Maybe I just really love Eldrad, OR MAYBE he is just damn good. I take offense to someone saying he is crap due to how much of a champ he is. Yea yea everyone has different experiences but come on, unless you choose to use him horribly.... he cant be bad. I played against space wolves and he and a group of guardians took on a pack of terminators and Logan himself. Yea I didnt want that to happen but I had no choice. Eldrad held them off almost single handed until reinforcements arrived. I've had people hate him so much that they spent the entire game trying to kill him and his unit focusing all firepower available to him with no avail. He just rocks and I will not believe anything but that.
Yes, that is totally true Eldrad just owns, in 6th I think he will do so more then ever.
Oh lovely memories of that game in 5th where he would pass all his saves and live until the very last turn where he blew up a land raider on an objetive^^
I really can´t understand how some people don´t like him.
8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.
Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
.
to get 2 archons your base army would have to be DE as allied detachements can only have 1 HQ
8-10 warlocks with various loadouts, l like 3 destructors.
Dark Eldar Allies: Archon with Shadowy Field, Blaster, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades x2, 5 Kabalite Warriors x2
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Every model in this unit is a character. Whenever shots come your way, anything that won't cause ID is transfered to the Archons, who have rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves... until they fail them, they eat wounds like mad. then you can push wounds to eldrad for his re-rollable 3+ .... then you can just start taking that TERRIBLE 4+ rerollable invul when you don't feel like risking characters anymore. Against vehilces you have 2 18 inch STR 8 AP 2 lance shots, plus at least 3(in my own army) 12 inch Str 3 + 2d6 Singing Spears. Not to mention, thanks to the Embolden lock, you can reroll failed leadership checks, including failed 3d6 pysker rolls. AND even if the enemy manages to cast a psyker power on you through the 3d6 RoWard, you will usually have a 4+ Deny the Witch thanks to Eldrad having a higher Psyker Mastery level than all but like 3 other models. (6+ base and a +2 bonus.)
.
to get 2 archons your base army would have to be DE as allied detachements can only have 1 HQ
I humbly suggest you read the rulebook section on allies and the force org chart.
At 2000 points you can take a secondary allied detachment, doubling the numbers allowed. It must be from the same codex you already have allies from.
seapheonix wrote:
The vibro cannons had a couple of good line up shots and glanced multiple tanks in a row. A it with a vibro cannon is an auto glance. I usually rolled two hits out of the three, getting double glances scared his tanks awy pretty quick.
You do know you can only get one glance per tank per shot for the whole battery right? You can't glance a tank twice with the same battery in a single turn.
It says a hit by a vibro cannon causes an auto glance... If the battery rolls two hits, why wouldn't that be two glances? Or another way to argue it. A single hit allows all three to contribute to the strength of the shot, why wouldn't all three contribute to the glances?
"Roll to hit, (firer does not need to pick a target) If any of the vibro cannon hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any line which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 str6 hits.
A target with an armor value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration."
The second paragraph is simply telling you how to resolve a hit on a target with an armor value. Not how many times a battery hits. Another thing for the long list of FAQ's.
I don't actually see anywhere in the writing of the entry that would suggest it only causes one damage to a vehicle versus the numerous hits to a squad.
I personally am very excited about 6th edition and Eldar. Fast Skimmers an fire 2 weapons @ 12" (go Falcons and Vipers!), vehicle squads don't die from being immobilized (go Vipers, War Walkers), Large/Small Blast weapons hit anything under the template, no half strength for vehicles (go Fire Prism/Night Spinners/Tempest Launchers, etc).
I'm surprised no one's commented something awesome:Swooping Hawks destroy vehicles in assault. I mean, 1 Squad of 10 models gets an average of 6-7 hits, you'd be unlikely to roll more than two 1's on the armor penetration roll ... that means an average of 4-5 glancing hits. Ok, lets just auto kill any vehicle in the game if we can assault it.
................
My other personal musings are Vypers are better now (yay!). My once oft used EML/Shurken Cannon Vipers will probably be converted to dual Shuriken Cannon Vipers for 60 points apiece, that's great for move 12", get 6 s6 r24" shots. Also expect far more firepower, with always being able to take at least snapshots (So awesome!) if glanced.
Hammer of Wrath is neat, makes any Jump or Jetbike unit more dangerous for sure (Guardian Jetbikes enjoying the extra hit, as a seer council will, too). Eldar players may be converting some axes onto models to get that +1 S/Ap2 (though I guess most eldar entries say power sword, and the Faq didn't errata that).
"Roll to hit, (firer does not need to pick a target) If any of the vibro cannon hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any line which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 str6 hits.
A target with an armor value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration."
The second paragraph is simply telling you how to resolve a hit on a target with an armor value. Not how many times a battery hits. Another thing for the long list of FAQ's.
I don't actually see anywhere in the writing of the entry that would suggest it only causes one damage to a vehicle versus the numerous hits to a squad.
On the issue of Vibro Cannons...Notice how they specifically mention wether they are talking about vibro cannon (singular) and vibro cannon battery (plural) throughout the entire description of how Vibro Cannons work. Too many people don't bother to learn how to read english. If you read it with proper english it clearly states that you get a glancing hit for A (singular) vibro cannon hit.
It doesn't say if the Vibro Cannon Battery hits...it says if a Vibro Cannon hits. Therefore you get more than just one glancing hit vs vehicles if more than one cannon hits, just like you get one more strength for each vibro cannon in the battery. If they wanted to say you get on glancing hit for the whole battery then they would have put the word "battery" in there instead of the phrase " A vibro cannon" .
Apart from being 100% wrong, you insulted people's supposed inability to read and then yourself failed at the task.
"For example, a unit of 3 Vibro Cannons rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon..."
The reason it only talks about being hit by a single cannon is because only a single cannon in each battery actually causes the damage. You cannot physically cause 2 glancing hits on the same vehicle with a single Vibro Cannon battery, because there is only ever a single line per battery.
It wasn't an insult. It is an observation. If you take it as an insult that's your problem. And you saying I'm 100% wrong in this is only your opinion of how it works. It is no more valid an opinion than anyone elses on this forum including my own so don't go getting all high and mighty about it. You have no moral high ground.
Avatar 720 wrote:Apart from being 100% wrong, you insulted people's supposed inability to read and then yourself failed at the task.
"For example, a unit of 3 Vibro Cannons rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon..."
The reason it only talks about being hit by a single cannon is because only a single cannon in each battery actually causes the damage. You cannot physically cause 2 glancing hits on the same vehicle with a single Vibro Cannon battery, because there is only ever a single line per battery.
Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.
You get two bonus from having a battery rather than a single cannon
- +1 to strength for each cannon
- increased survivability (more than 1 cannon to kill)
Think of it as the cannons "combine fire" like a Prism Cannon. It doesn't make sense in terms of "fluff" but it IS the RAW
As such you DO NOT get the following bonus
- multiple glancing hits from one battery
Passively increasing the strength =/= Causing damage.
GK Psyker Henchmen get +1 to the strength of their psychic attack for every psyker in the squad, and yet there is only a single attack being made; by your logic there should be an equal number of attacks to psykers in the squad.
Also, what about Fire Prism cannon links? If another Prism links and increases the strength and AP of another, then why are they not getting two blasts?
Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, and if only one cannon in the battery is causing damage then why does the strength of the attack go up for each cannon in the battery. After all, your assertion that only one cannon is causing the damage would mean that it can only be a strength 4 hit....and that clearly isn't how it is described.
You get two bonus from having a battery rather than a single cannon
- +1 to strength for each cannon
- increased survivability (more than 1 cannon to kill)
Think of it as the cannons "combine fire" like a Prism Cannon. It doesn't make sense in terms of "fluff" but it IS the RAW
As such you DO NOT get the following bonus
- multiple glancing hits from one battery
Yeah, I understand the way you are reading it. But until GW actually comes out with a FAQ on the subject than it will always be up for debate, simply because it does say "A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon (notice it does not say vibro cannon battery here, it says vibro cannon) always suffers a single glancing hit."
That one line says "A" vibro cannon. In the entire description they are careful enough to differentiate between the battery and single cannons. Even when talking about the strength of a hit. Why all of a sudden would it change when talking about vehicles? It doesn't. People are just wishful thinking.
As a side note Vibro Cannon batteries in the old Epic Space Marine game were so powerful that they could topple titans in one round of shooting. They could bring down buildings by just shooting at them too.
Avatar 720 wrote:Passively increasing the strength =/= Causing damage.
GK Psyker Henchmen get +1 to the strength of their psychic attack for every psyker in the squad, and yet there is only a single attack being made; by your logic there should be an equal number of attacks to psykers in the squad.
Also, what about Fire Prism cannon links? If another Prism links and increases the strength and AP of another, then why are they not getting two blasts?
The reason neither of those work the way Vibro Cannons do is because of how they are described in the books. Niether one says the GK Psyker Henchmen nor the Fire Prism gets extra attacks nor do they say they get an extra template. But the description for the Vibro Cannon DOES say it gets a single glacing hit for a vibro cannon. It doesn't say it gets that for the battery of vibro cannons, it says it gets it for "a" vibro cannon.
Sent off the question to GW. We'll see if and how they respond. Crossing the fingers I'm about to get three hits. Hee hee.
As to the fire prism cannon example. I would say that actually supports my argument. An additional tank has increased the damage caused. Your adding strength and lowering ap for every fire prism you ad in.
If the idea is the vibro cannon has increased strength but not hits, it should be that with more then one in the battery it becomes a penning hit. It's not written that way at all though, so that won't happen right now. New rulebook would be nice.
I am of course looking through rosy eldar glasses with hopes of making the best use of my old codex.
I'm not failing to grasp anything. It is most certainly up for debate.
Either way, it doesn't make a difference because you will continue to believe it works the way you see it and I will continue to believe it works the way I see it. Until GW actually comes out and explains it better in a FAQ or Codex update then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Okay, i'm going to try once more, using the most basic method I can.
You have a battery of 3 Vibro Cannons.
Each cannon in the battery successfully scores a hit.
A single line is drawn from one of the cannons.
This line passes over a model with an armour value.
The rules for Vibro Cannons targeting models with an armour value tell us that a target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro cannon suffers a single glancing hit.
Since there is only a single line coming from a single Vibro Cannon, the vehicle has been hit by a Vibro Cannon, and consequently suffers a single glancing hit.
You are not instructed to repeat this for the other cannons in the battery. You are not instructed to add any hits for other weapons in the battery. You are not instructed to draw anything more than a single line from a single cannon in the battery, and you are not instructed to inflict more than a single glancing hit.
Please tell me where, if anywhere, I lost you in this explanation.
Look. I already told you we will have to agree that we both disagree on the way they work. Since I don't know you personally and will probably never play you personally then there is no need to try to win me over to your way of thinking. It doesn't matter. People will have to decide for themselves how it works until we get a FAQ or a new codex (hopefully with a more clear way of explaining it)
What I can tell you is that this is not the only game Vibro Cannons have appeared in. In the Epic Space Marine game they work the way I think they work. They add more damage to vehicles when more vibro cannons are firing. They can even take out the leg of a titan and bring down buildings. But not if you are only firing one cannon. The more you add the more powerful it gets.
Read the full rules of the vibrocannon. Your roles "to hit" do not target anything, you just make a roll for each cannon. No matter how many hits you roll, you draw a single line from one of the cannons.
Now tell me how you figure which units were "hit" by the vibrocannon?
Not from the die rolls, because you're not targeting anything. It's by the line you draw from a SINGLE cannon, not a line drawn from each cannon that hits. The die rolls are only used to see if a line is drawn, not the number of lines and also to figure the strength of the attack. Since the strength of the attack has no meaning vs vehicles, it doesn't matter how many hits you roll over one. Since there is only ever one line drawn, there can only be one hit on a vehicle per round of firing by this battery of weapons.
I'm an Eldar player and even I wouldn't try to convince someone that my weapons could do more than the simple rules that govern them.
Ok, so how are foot Dire Avengers right now? Because I was thinking about having some two or three 10 man squads tooled up hard (dual-cats, defend, bladestorm).
I don't know if this is a -move but with current bladestorm + bladestorm on overwatch + defend those guys could do some damage and hold their ground.
Couple this with some Ranger support to try to snipe all the flamers and maybe a foot-council to be the anvil. Small units of Jetbikes/Vipers/Spiders to disable vehicles and harass, plus WW or WLs for heavy longer ranged support.
Or are they too fragile and in forthcoming foothammer won't last long to anti-infantry?
You can Footslog Eldrad, the Farseer, and the two Archons with the 10 guardians across the board. Put two archons in the front of the unit and Eldrad and the other Farseer in the middle.
Well, I don't like this tactics. Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Stelek is not an idiot. Stelek is the Rush Limbaugh of 40k. He sometimes has some good points, and has a strongly devoted following. He has the personality of sandpaper and occasionally makes statements that make you go if you can stomach reading his posts or listening to his interviews, more power to you.
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:Look. I already told you we will have to agree that we both disagree on the way they work. Since I don't know you personally and will probably never play you personally then there is no need to try to win me over to your way of thinking. It doesn't matter
Here is where it does matter. If you go to the NOVA open, and try to use that ruling you may be in for a bit of a shock.
Tourneys are the baseline for why most of us argue rules. Who cares if your playing your buddy on a sunday afternoon. The only time it matters is when your playing competitively.
Another plus for Swooping Hawks is that as there will be more emphasis on infantry, you'll have more targets for your deepstrike pie plate. I definitely see me trying them against IG.
Quick question, if you shoot (a haywire grenade) into a vehicle, and destroy it, can you then charge a different vehicle in the assault phase, effectively giving you a chance to damage/destroy 2 vehicles per turn?
It seems plasma has become the new in thing from what I've seen, but what is the take on fire dragons these days? Are larger squads more viable now? Seems like a serpent isn't worth the points anymore.
Serpents are still great. I run 5 in all my lists from 1500 points. It's still a lot of focused shooting to bring down even 1 of them, and with Divination I always give the lead tank a 4+ invulnerable when I roll it up.
Not to mention it's a platform to carry 6 Str6 shots. I usually keep them beefed up with Prescience. Eldrad can usually keep two firing on all cylinders.
Fire dragons are still good. I usually bring a single serpent with a group of 6-9 these days. I either immediately beeline for whatever has an AV higher than 12/12/10 or use them as TEQ hunters.
But Eldar vehicles are still useful. I usually bring 2 prisms and about 3-5 other tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
seapheonix wrote: Seems like a serpent isn't worth the points anymore.
Remember, these aren't Rhinos. 12+ on the front and sides, Energy Shields, access to a 4+ invul for vehicles and 5+ jink saves, 4+ if flat out, and usually a 2/3+ during nightfight missions.
I think the Eldar ability to move, fire two guns at full BS and still get a jink save is what will be the saving grace of the book. Wave serpents, vypers, Falcons all with 2 guns running and gunning is where it's at. Maybe with some Tau allies to provide some higher AP, higher str shooting.
The foot list with DE allies seems like it will be strong as well. It's too bad you have to take Eldar troops, haha. But at least the Avatar will potentially make all your dark Eldar fearless
i have a question about eldrad.... his staff says that he can use a third power if not locked in combat.... FAQ says he mastery 3.... does this means he gets to casts 3 powers every turn no matter in combat or not??? or does his staff now give him a possibility of casting a 4th power if not in combat???
silly 4th ed rules not making sense in 6th ed.....
Anyone one else notice that night spinner is a transport now? It says so in the reference area Fast, Tank, Skimmer, Transport. Has it always been this way? have I been out of the loop this whole time? either way, what the gak is the capacity on that thing so I can field mine.
Cypher's Sword wrote:Anyone one else notice that night spinner is a transport now? It says so in the reference area Fast, Tank, Skimmer, Transport. Has it always been this way? have I been out of the loop this whole time? either way, what the gak is the capacity on that thing so I can field mine.
I'm pretty excited about all the changes so far. I'll drop a few of my opinions on running topics.
Rangers are fun now. Not overpoweringly fun, but precision strikes and ap1 make them a pain if you roll well and pick out special weapons. Buying the pathfinder upgrade isn't worth it though. In higher points games, when it becomes viable, your rangers won't be getting shot at much, so you don't need the defense as much. I think those points are just better spent on other things.
DA get outranged now by rapid fire weapons, so that hurts their foot viability. But they still have a nice rate of fire and bladestorm on overwatch can hurt. If you happened to roll up that psychic power and can do it at bs4, even better. Since you can't kill hordes fast in assault any more, you will need units to wipe them out when they get close. Big squads of DA still put out a large amount of wounds and with smart targetting, can remove half a horde squad with focus fire (hordes almost can never fit their whole squad in cover).
Last but not least: Are people really using Harlequins with both the new and old version of VoT combined? That seems like the worst case of abusing the rules. I would feel like such a terrible person if I was arguing to allow a typo to affect the rules. Especially if anyone used the argument that other languages stated it correctly. Don't make up excuses for why you are using a typo.
@wuestenfux Actually it was. The original forgeworld rules gave it a transport capacity of 6. They took it away when they put it in the white dwarf for some reason.
Cypher's Sword wrote:Anyone one else notice that night spinner is a transport now? It says so in the reference area Fast, Tank, Skimmer, Transport. Has it always been this way? have I been out of the loop this whole time? either way, what the gak is the capacity on that thing so I can field mine.
The night spinner has never been a transport.
ah so they will be soon, take a look at the appendix in the new rulebook, it shows night spinner as also being a transport.
@racta Ahreed on the harliquins. Unfortunately for me personally I won't be using harliquins until it is clear one way or another as to what they are supposed to have. FAQ is currently clear but so poorly done it has to be a typo.
It would be nice if they had FAQd the Dark Eldar as well, so at least we could compare, but they flubbed the whole deal by mistyping the Eldar one and not changing the DE ones at all.
Thunderfrog wrote:Na, FAQ is fairly clear on Eldrad. The Psyker lvl 3 includes his bonus from Spirit Stones.
He start at 1 (like all farseers) Stones bump to 2. Staff jumps to 3.
not to make this a war on words, BUT i'm sorry, the FAQ is not clear... there's no mention on "how" Eldrad is Mastery Lvl 3 except saying that "this includes spirit stones"... there's no mention on how the staff is incorporated... if I'm to assume anything, I would think that Eldrad is a solid LVL 3 (including spirit stones), w/ the possibility of casting a 4th psychic power from the staff "if not in combat"...
.... maybe my judgement is a little biased here, but Eldrad is supposed to be the BADDEST OF ALL PSYKERS...!!!!!!!!!
racta wrote:I'm pretty excited about all the changes so far. I'll drop a few of my opinions on running topics.
Rangers are fun now. Not overpoweringly fun, but precision strikes and ap1 make them a pain if you roll well and pick out special weapons. Buying the pathfinder upgrade isn't worth it though. In higher points games, when it becomes viable, your rangers won't be getting shot at much, so you don't need the defense as much. I think those points are just better spent on other things.
DA get outranged now by rapid fire weapons, so that hurts their foot viability. But they still have a nice rate of fire and bladestorm on overwatch can hurt. If you happened to roll up that psychic power and can do it at bs4, even better. Since you can't kill hordes fast in assault any more, you will need units to wipe them out when they get close. Big squads of DA still put out a large amount of wounds and with smart targetting, can remove half a horde squad with focus fire (hordes almost can never fit their whole squad in cover).
Last but not least: Are people really using Harlequins with both the new and old version of VoT combined? That seems like the worst case of abusing the rules. I would feel like such a terrible person if I was arguing to allow a typo to affect the rules. Especially if anyone used the argument that other languages stated it correctly. Don't make up excuses for why you are using a typo.
Indeed, Rangers are already a good buy. They will eventually be the last the enemy will target via shooting. But I've often noticed when I played mech Eldar that the enemy moves towards my ground units like Pathfinders.
It appears that DA have gotten another role in the game. A larger unit can thin out approaching infantry units. As said, this becomes important if a larger mob or brood approaches them, since now a fearless unit in cc which has lost cc will not longer suffer from extra wounds.
Cypher's Sword wrote:Anyone one else notice that night spinner is a transport now? It says so in the reference area Fast, Tank, Skimmer, Transport. Has it always been this way? have I been out of the loop this whole time? either way, what the gak is the capacity on that thing so I can field mine.
Well, in the BRB on page 412 it marks the nightspinner as a transport, but since his rules in the WD don´t give him any capacity whatsoever, I guess we now have...
Gangrel767 wrote:My guess is that those tables in the back of the BRB are riddled with small errors. They're going to need to errata it or abandon it fairly soon.
Or they could just give the nightspinner so actual transport capacity^^ I would love that
Just noticed something about Eldar and anti-flyer emplacements.
Tank hunter rule now allows re-rolls of armor penetration instead of +1 str.
The jink save is a type of cover save.
The interceptor rule allows the weapon to fire as soon as the flyer arrives from reserve.
So the guy who should be sitting on the trigger of your quad gun or icarus lascannon is the fire dragon exarch with tankhunter and crack shot. If he can manage to roll a 2+ to hit (TL rerolls on the quad gun), he can light up a flyer as soon as it enters the table, reroll any failed pens, and bypass its jink save.
Thunderfrog wrote:Na, FAQ is fairly clear on Eldrad. The Psyker lvl 3 includes his bonus from Spirit Stones.
He start at 1 (like all farseers)
Stones bump to 2.
Staff jumps to 3.
not to make this a war on words, BUT i'm sorry, the FAQ is not clear... there's no mention on "how" Eldrad is Mastery Lvl 3 except saying that "this includes spirit stones"... there's no mention on how the staff is incorporated... if I'm to assume anything, I would think that Eldrad is a solid LVL 3 (including spirit stones), w/ the possibility of casting a 4th psychic power from the staff "if not in combat"...
.... maybe my judgement is a little biased here, but Eldrad is supposed to be the BADDEST OF ALL PSYKERS...!!!!!!!!!
I'd think a little common sense could be applied though.
We know Eldrad is Lvl 3 and that this contains the bonus from Spirit Stones.
Even if Eldrad is a base lvl 2 Psyker, his staff, which has not been erratad or FAQ'd says that it allows him to cast a third power every turn if he is not in combat and allows him to cast a power twice.
Pysker 3 generates 3 charges, and can cast three powers per turn.
So even if he can always cast three per turn, at no point does any wording in any rules for Eldrad allow a 4th power. His staff clearly allows him to cast a 3rd power, not another power. So I would guess that while that single sentence is outpaced by the current rules for Psyker Mastery 3, you just cannot justify it granting a 4th power no matter how you argue Eldrads build.
It sucks, I know, but casting 5 powers a turn between Eldrad and a Farseer is broke enough. Besides, looking to fluff for an arguement on power is pointless.
As much as I would love Eldrad to be able to cast 4 psychic powers a turn (my god that would be incredible) I have to agree, the wording just doesn't support it enough. :(
Gangrel767 wrote:and then move 2d6 in the assault phase.
Well, not "and then." they can do one or the other.
Turbo boosting has been worded so that once you have done it, you may no longer perform any other action willfully for the rest of the turn.
Good catch. I missed that one. Thanks. I do want to comment on how this subtle change (turbo-boosting) has made it so we can now use our psychic buffs (fortune, etc...)... here the comment: AWESOME!!
Gangrel767 wrote:and then move 2d6 in the assault phase.
Well, not "and then." they can do one or the other.
Turbo boosting has been worded so that once you have done it, you may no longer perform any other action willfully for the rest of the turn.
Good catch. I missed that one. Thanks. I do want to comment on how this subtle change (turbo-boosting) has made it so we can now use our psychic buffs (fortune, etc...)... here the comment: AWESOME!!
Actually you could get away with it in 5th ed too, you just needed to try harder. The farseer would have to start outside the unit he wanted to fortune, and of course be within 6'' of them. After fortuning the unit, they could turbo boost; if you did so across the farseer's path, rather than directly away from him, he could still move close enough to count as being in coherency with the back of the unit, and thus would become part of it. He never technically turbo boosted, however, so he personally was not entitled to the 3+ cover save.
Thunderfrog wrote:Na, FAQ is fairly clear on Eldrad. The Psyker lvl 3 includes his bonus from Spirit Stones.
He start at 1 (like all farseers)
Stones bump to 2.
Staff jumps to 3.
not to make this a war on words, BUT i'm sorry, the FAQ is not clear... there's no mention on "how" Eldrad is Mastery Lvl 3 except saying that "this includes spirit stones"... there's no mention on how the staff is incorporated... if I'm to assume anything, I would think that Eldrad is a solid LVL 3 (including spirit stones), w/ the possibility of casting a 4th psychic power from the staff "if not in combat"...
.... maybe my judgement is a little biased here, but Eldrad is supposed to be the BADDEST OF ALL PSYKERS...!!!!!!!!!
I'd think a little common sense could be applied though.
We know Eldrad is Lvl 3 and that this contains the bonus from Spirit Stones.
Even if Eldrad is a base lvl 2 Psyker, his staff, which has not been erratad or FAQ'd says that it allows him to cast a third power every turn if he is not in combat and allows him to cast a power twice.
Pysker 3 generates 3 charges, and can cast three powers per turn.
So even if he can always cast three per turn, at no point does any wording in any rules for Eldrad allow a 4th power. His staff clearly allows him to cast a 3rd power, not another power. So I would guess that while that single sentence is outpaced by the current rules for Psyker Mastery 3, you just cannot justify it granting a 4th power no matter how you argue Eldrads build.
It sucks, I know, but casting 5 powers a turn between Eldrad and a Farseer is broke enough. Besides, looking to fluff for an arguement on power is pointless.
Eldrad is already the baddest(?) psyker in the game. Ridiculously good for his low point cost.
While using codex powers he can cast 3 powers a turn. When using rulebook powers he is mastery level 3 and generates 4 powers. Mastery level 3 allows him to use 3 warp change a turn, his staff does not allow him to use additonal warp change so he cannot cast additional powers.
He is too cheap, waaay too cheap. Hes less expensive than a farseer with all the same options, and the farseer still wouldn't have the staff or the improved ward save.
I might get flogged for heresy but personally I'm hoping in the next book he gets boosted to mastery 4 and has a big price increase.
This would justify boosting farseers to come stock at mastery 2 and giving them an option to upgrade to 3 (maybe even 4, grey knights are running around at 3....)
Well, not quite dead.. Hes kinda like Khaine... Slaneesh didn't quite kill him, but his consciousness is split into many different pieces contained in seperate places. When this happened, IIRC, his physical body vanished.
Falconlance wrote:Well, not quite dead.. Hes kinda like Khaine... Slaneesh didn't quite kill him, but his consciousness is split into many different pieces contained in seperate places. When this happened, IIRC, his physical body vanished.
It actually had nothing to do with Slaanesh.
He melded his mind into Abbadons black fortress and tried to wrest control of it enough to shut it down. He's sortve locked in there for eternity.
Well before this happened, he made a number of soul stones to hold pieces of his consciousness so he could communicate with other farseers. Rumor in the fluff is that he survives through these, aiding others as best he can.
Falconlance wrote:He is too cheap, waaay too cheap. Hes less expensive than a farseer with all the same options, and the farseer still wouldn't have the staff or the improved ward save.
I might get flogged for heresy but personally I'm hoping in the next book he gets boosted to mastery 4 and has a big price increase.
This would justify boosting farseers to come stock at mastery 2 and giving them an option to upgrade to 3 (maybe even 4, grey knights are running around at 3....)
I can see him and a sorc of tzeench being Lvl4. but then you would also have to have a IoM counterpart to make the panzees happy. I think in the next edition he will see a point increase even if he is still lvl3.
We have one really awesome HQ for the point cost. Please do not take that away from us too. It's not like we can get 35 pt. transports or super cheap heavy weapons or countless other things that the IoM teams get. I am happy with eldrad the way he is.
I'm willing to bet that our vehicles are going to go down in cost; they were priced for being ridiculously good in 4th (could move 12'' and fire all weapons; if they moved more than 6'' they could never suffer a penetrating hit; as long as they weren't immobilized, they were only ever hit on a 6 in close combat, even if they remained stationary.) Now that they are made of paper mache, were going to see a major cost reduction. Even in 5th it only makes sense that they would have cost much less if the book had been redone then.
And I have to disagree about Eldrad being the only awesome HQ for the point cost... the Avatar is amazing for 155pts, he costs peanuts. Even your standard farseer is a GOOD buy, but he cant raise a candle to Eldrad.. Eldrad is the commander of choice for pretty much every Eldar strike force ever (and now... anyone with Eldar allies...) that needs to change.
I may have went over the line saying that Eldrad is the ONLY great HQ choice we have. The avatar is amazing as well but I never saw tooo many lists last edition with him in it. Hopefully there will be more in this edition.
A standard Farseer is a good buy as well but I always pick Eldrad over him unless the game is 1000 pts or less. If he goes up in price but gets even better then Im mostly ok with that. But if he stays the same or gets worse and he has a price increase.... that will just suck.
And yea some people say Eldrad is cheese.... but come on who doesnt like a liiiiitle cheese. Especially when xenos as a whole dont often get too much cheese.
Razgriz22 wrote:I may have went over the line saying that Eldrad is the ONLY great HQ choice we have. The avatar is amazing as well but I never saw tooo many lists last edition with him in it. Hopefully there will be more in this edition.
A standard Farseer is a good buy as well but I always pick Eldrad over him unless the game is 1000 pts or less. If he goes up in price but gets even better then Im mostly ok with that. But if he stays the same or gets worse and he has a price increase.... that will just suck.
And yea some people say Eldrad is cheese.... but come on who doesnt like a liiiiitle cheese. Especially when xenos as a whole dont often get too much cheese.
Eldrad is just one of the things that asure that Eldar are not completely dead even if we're two editions back^^ We kinda need him...
And regarding the avatar, he always was used in footdar lists and as we will certainly see a lot more footdar this edition, I'm sure the avatar will see increased usage
I am pondering over having 2 lists this edition. My fast list which I already mostly have (jetbikes, seer council, vypers, prisms) but also constructing a new list. A MC eldar list :-). It just makes me smile to say that. This would be used more for games with friends and not so much in a tournament setting unless approved. With Eldar being ok on foot now, Take the forgeworld wraithseer, eldrad, 2 wraithlords, 3 war walkers, wraithguard, and a good bit of rangers. At 2000 pts you could also throw in MORE wraithlords and also the avatar. It may not be the best list but it would sure be fun (at least t look at lol). But I like what the wraithguard can do now along with support lords and maybe even the avatar. With Eldrad in there to spice it up with some powers. *goes and searches ebay for wraithlords*