Manchu my 2 cents is that something can be so perfect that they can be flawed. Their flaw can be in their arrogance and perfection. Superiority can make you look bad in others eyes, why else would the DA's and in turn Lion not trust RG say all you want about Lion being unable to judge character but i am very sure that Lion knew something was up with RG and his marines.

When someone thinks badly of perfection, that is called jealousy.

one word Fulgrim

Manchu -again:-) Fair point,but tell me,how are they perfect?They aren't best fighters,psychers and don't have respect for mortals(like wolves and salamanders)?So what is their mark of perfection?

Gabrial Seth wrote:one word Fulgrim

But Fulgrim was not perfect. That's the point of Fulgrim.

DatrhMarko wrote:Manchu -again:-) Fair point,but tell me,how are they perfect?They aren't best fighters,psychers and don't have respect for mortals(like wolves and salamanders)?So what is their mark of perfection?

They absolutely do have respect and concern for mortals. That is a big part of their identity. They are not merely warriors, but engineers, architects, philosophers -- in short, they are the ideal kings of humanity. The big issue of the Astartes is, aren't they just weapons? And what purpose do weapons have once the battle is fought and won? But these are the wrong questions: rather ask, did the Emperor only forge weapons? No, he made them to be the rulers of men. And Guilliman lived up to his destiny. Neither Fenris nor Nocturne can compare to the jewels of Ultramar.

Manchu wrote:Hello Pilau Rice

How's it going?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:No, he just plans for the Second Imperium behind the Emperors back

Imperium Secundum could mean "Imperium Take 2" like you're saying or it could mean "Imperium Part 2" -- which is actually a supportable argument. We have no reason to think Guilliman would give up on the Imperium -- quite the reverse. So instead of imagining the book to be "Let's Do This The Right Way Next Time" how about thinking of it like "How We Rebuild After The Traitors Are Defeated"? I mean, since you know this is the Codex Astartes and you know that the Codex Astartes is exactly that. Or willful blindness and massive, baseless assumption. Whichever your prefer.

Or maybe Imperium Secondus - How I threw my lot in with Chaos

The Codex, as far as I am aware, relates to the Astartes, not rebuilding the entire Imperium.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:You make that sound like Ferrus, Corax and Vulkan were dumb.

I don't mean to. The order to go to the Isstvan system came from Terra. But they did rush into the fray before the other four legions arrived. Had they waited, things might have been different.

Possibly, but I don't see much of a difference, they still would have been caught in between eight Legions. Now if they had not risked taking along the Night Lords and Word Bearers, then things might have been different.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:That's exactly my point, we know, but how the Dickens does Lion know that this is going to be the outcome, he doesn't.

Yes, exactly -- he doesn't know. He has to rely on judgment rather than foreknowledge. But he has bad judgment.

So he should just go with the flow and not be suspect of anything then?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Dorn doesn't like it either, he only bows because he doesn't want to have the same thing happen again, he's bullied into it it. This is after the damn Heresy.

The Codex is meant to prevent another Heresy. Dorn's insanity is the greatest example of why the Codex is necessary.

Explain Russ, Explain Vulkan If Dorn was a lesser person then he could have started another civil war and the Codex would have had the exact opposite of what Guilliman wanted.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:He wants to set up a new Imperium, he might be anti Horus, but that's a similarity they share. He's not fighting for the existing one, the one ruled by his Father, that's another.

No it isn't. You just read Rules of Engagement so you know what you just posted is false.

I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't mean it and how is it false? He does want to set up a new Imperium, be it part 2 or a fresh slate, and he doesn't fight for the existing Imperium. He's on Ultramar fighting mock battles and he's wrote a book saying Imperium Secondus. I know that he isn't Horus, but Lion see's those things as similarities. BAD JUDGE OF CHARACTER, BAD LION!

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:No, but the 2 years is why they didn't get there in time. If they maybe left after a year they might have been there to actually help the Emperor. The Siege might not be happening but the Imperium is in flames around Ultramar.

By all means, give me a month-by-month account of the Heresy during those two years. I want to what flames and where.

So your telling me that all was quite and peaceful during those 2 years of the Heresy?

Pilau Rice wrote:How's it going?

Very good, as you can see.

Pilau Rice wrote:Or maybe Imperium Secondus - How I threw my lot in with Chaos

Or, with a similar degree of credibility, it could just be a cookbook.

Pilau Rice wrote:The Codex, as far as I am aware, relates to the Astartes, not rebuilding the entire Imperium.

You're also aware that Guilliman did in fact rebuild the Imperium. And that the Second Founding was part of that project. And that Guilliman saw the Second Founding as essential to the survival of the Imperium. And that he was right. I don't mean to recount a whole litarny of things you already know but I am concerned that you seem to be selectively forgetting them ... Before Calth, Guilliman's main concern was looking to what role the Ultramarines would play after the Great Crusade was completed. After Calth, his concerns switched to how he would save the Imperium -- the completion of the Great Crusade could wait. And after rebuilding the Imperium in the wake of the Heresy, his main concern was ensuring that another Horus Heresy would not occur. So, as any man of reaosnable intelligence can see, Guilliman's idea for the book went through some revisions as the galaxy changed.

Pilau Rice wrote:So he should just go with the flow and not be suspect of anything then?

The issue is not what he should do. The issue is why he is doing what he is doing. You say he is suspicious of Guilliman because Guilliman could be a traitor. I am reminding you that we know Guilliman is not a traitor and that the Lion thinks so because the Lion doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to sizing up loyalty.

Pilau Rice wrote:Explain Russ, Explain Vulkan If Dorn was a lesser person then he could have started another civil war and the Codex would have had the exact opposite of what Guilliman wanted.

It only came to a head with Dorn. And if another civil war had to be fought to wipe out the last of the traitors -- fine. The issue of the Codex was exactly this: was the Heresy truly over or was there one more battle to be fought? Guilliman, the man who saved the Imperium without declaring himself Emperor, tested the loyalty of the remaining Primarchs with one great decision. After the Heresy, the only thing the loyalist Primarchs had left was their legions. Would they be willing to sacrifice even this for the continued existence of the Imperium? Dorn proved himself loyal in the end but his psychosis lived on in the form of the Black Templars.

Pilau Rice wrote:I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't mean it and how is it false? He does want to set up a new Imperium, be it part 2 or a fresh slate, and he doesn't fight for the existing Imperium.

For pete's sake, man, read your own bloody posts. In Rules of Engagement, Guilliman tells us why he's writing the blasted book: because he will not let his father's empire go up in flames.

Pilau Rice wrote:So your telling me that all was quite and peaceful during those 2 years of the Heresy?

I'm telling you to put some evidence under your assumptions because they don't support themselves.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:How's it going?

Very good, as you can see

Good good, had a long day here, home time soon. In the thread, I don't see much difference from what has been going on the last few pages. Not very much Thousand Sons stuff

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:The Codex, as far as I am aware, relates to the Astartes, not rebuilding the entire Imperium.

You're also aware that Guilliman did in fact rebuild the Imperium.

All on his own? What a guy. And there was me thinking that the newly formed Council of Terra had something to do with it.

Manchu wrote:]And that the Second Founding was part of that project. And that Guilliman saw the Second Founding as essential to the survival of the Imperium. And that he was right. I don't mean to recount a whole litarny of things you already know but I am concerned that you seem to be selectively forgetting them ... Before Calth, Guilliman's main concern was looking to what role the Ultramarines would play after the Great Crusade was completed. After Calth, his concerns switched to how he would save the Imperium -- the completion of the Great Crusade could wait. And after rebuilding the Imperium in the wake of the Heresy, his main concern was ensuring that another Horus Heresy would not occur. So, as any man of reaosnable intelligence can see, Guilliman's idea for the book went through some revisions as the galaxy changed.

Which was point I had raised earlier, his intentions for the Astartes were changed after the battle of Calth. He had 2 years to rewrite the book, they could have gone from Ambassadors and Governors to the best way to be oppressors, making Lions fears real. You're right, we know otherwise, but the Lion doesn't.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So he should just go with the flow and not be suspect of anything then?

The issue is not what he should do. The issue is why he is doing what he is doing. You say he is suspicious of Guilliman because Guilliman could be a traitor. I am reminding you that we know Guilliman is not a traitor and that the Lion thinks so because the Lion doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to sizing up loyalty.

Fool him more than once, shame on him, fool him many more times, shame on him. In a time when most can't tell friend from foe, and he has been duped before it's best to be cautious, this is what Lions doing here. He could go and attack Guilliman, but he's going to meet him and find out what he is up to, despite of what he fears.

Manchu wrote:It only came to a head with Dorn. And if another civil war had to be fought to wipe out the last of the traitors -- fine. The issue of the Codex was exactly this: was the Heresy truly over or was there one more battle to be fought? Guilliman, the man who saved the Imperium without declaring himself Emperor, tested the loyalty of the remaining Primarchs with one great decision. After the Heresy, the only thing the loyalist Primarchs had left was their legions. Would they be willing to sacrifice even this for the continued existence of the Imperium? Dorn proved himself loyal in the end but his psychosis lived on in the form of the Black Templars.

When the Imperial Fists began to be violently persecuted for their supposed heresies, and the strike сruiseг Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy, it was almost inevitable that once more internecine war would engulf the Space Marines аnd the Imperium. But, even аs the newly formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle. Dorn relented. He agreed to the formation of two new Chapters from his Legion - the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars would join the Imperial Fists Chapter.

Sounds like it.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't mean it and how is it false? He does want to set up a new Imperium, be it part 2 or a fresh slate, and he doesn't fight for the existing Imperium.

For pete's sake, man, read your own bloody posts. In Rules of Engagement, Guilliman tells us why he's writing the blasted book: because he will not let his father's empire go up in flames.

Pilau Rice wrote:And there was me thinking that the newly formed Council of Terra had something to do with it.

Newly formed by ...

Pilau Rice wrote:He had 2 years to rewrite the book, they could have gone from Ambassadors and Governors to the best way to be oppressors, making Lions fears real. You're right, we know otherwise, but the Lion doesn't.

And that's the fulcrum upon which we can judge the Lion's judgment.

Pilau Rice wrote:He could go and attack Guilliman, but he's going to meet him and find out what he is up to, despite of what he fears.

"I will stop Horus and Guilliman." ... doesn't really sound like a tentative appraisal.

Pilau Rice wrote:Sounds like it.

Indeed it does. Dorn was out of his mind with grief and shame. He started to use the Pain Glove more and more. His judgement was at least severely impaired at the Iron Cage. The Codex brought him back, cured him you might say. There is a reason that the Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines in rigid adherence to the Codex.

Pilau Rice wrote:Maybe you should go back and read the damn posts as well, this is from Lions perspective. The whole reason we are even having this conversation.

Uh ... exactly? The Lion has spoken to Guilliman and concluded that Guilliman is a traitor. We don't know what Guilliman said but we do know what he has been doing. So what we are seeing is not Guilliman's actual position (we have seen that elsewhere) but Jonson's take on it. And Jonson's take is hugely wrong.

Pilau Rice wrote:The Heresy just stopped because I haven't got evidence to back up what I believe to be the case.

What you haven't got evidence for is that Guilliman chose to allow Horus to rampage across the galaxy on a clear beeline to Terra because Guilliman wanted the Imperium to fall.

Pilau Rice wrote:Anyhoo, same time tomorrow !

Just like in Valhalla!

if memory serves lorgar and horus orginally cared for mortals, it was the taint of chaos that changed them.

Manchu wrote:But these are the wrong questions: rather ask, did the Emperor only forge weapons? No, he made them to be the rulers of men. And Guilliman lived up to his destiny. Neither Fenris nor Nocturne can compare to the jewels of Ultramar.

No, not rulers of Men. He made each with a purpose, we know this.

Magnus would help use the Golden Throne and teach members of the Imperium to control and use their psychic skills.
Lorgar would take the word of the Emperor and keep the Imperial Truth.
Leman Russ would be the executioner of those that disobeyed, when it was the last choice.
Guilliman was to think out the strategies required to handle situations that came to light.
Horus would oversee the Imperium's overall direction, guiding it to the places The Emperor had wished.

Each Primarch would serve a purpose. No Primarch would rule and control alone.

Ultramar is in itself a good reason to suspect Guilliman of treachery if the Imperium itself were to fall, why should he lose his empire? He made it what it is, why should he lose it. The Wolves have their little world to play on, the Thousand Sons have their place to study and be free, etc. But me, I have an empire. Its mine.

Ultramar doesn't pay tithes, its people are not sent off to join forces of other areas. It doesn't pay anything at all towards the upkeep of the Imperium outside of their own. The enemies of the Imperium are not theirs, they call their enemies "Enemies of Ultramar."

Codex Astartes was his best way of assuring the continued existence of his own Empire. He just used his wits to outsmart the others, he planned his strategies to work in the idea he would need to beat his brothers and their legions away in order to keep what was his. Roboute Guilliman is the Gollum of 40k, all the other legions are tricksy and false hobbitses. As long as no Bagginses come to steal my precious Ultramar.

And if Tigurius has connected to the Hive Mind of the Tyranids, he is a liability. Another Imperial psyker has controlled a Hive for a time but it could also see into his mind, it used his knowledge to defeat Imperial troops when it took power back. Someone with such a vast knowledge of Astartes and other combat tactics, deployments, locations, weaknesses and strengths should not continue to live if he has come into contact with a Hive mind who could take all that knowledge and quickly overrun an Imperium with few ways of counteracting the assaults.

Further noted The Thousand Sons weren't the only ones to break the ruling on Nikaea. Space Wolf Rune Priests continued to use their skills post ruling. Undoubtedly they were not the only ones who had Psykers who still used their skills post Nikaea, something the Emperor had decreed against.

the alpha legion continued as well as many others

SkyD wrote:

Further noted The Thousand Sons weren't the only ones to break the ruling on Nikaea. Space Wolf Rune Priests continued to use their skills post ruling. Undoubtedly they were not the only ones who had Psykers who still used their skills post Nikaea, something the Emperor had decreed against.

oooo,but Magnus pushed little harder "then just using psykic power",like screwing imperium 4life by destroying webway project and making deals with entites which even big E wouldn't dare to touch...
...but we established that in previous posts....so once and for all- MAGNUS THE RED was doombringer for his extra-cool legion(which are guility for having a smart primarch who is rather dumb)....END OF STORY

Yeah, he broke the toy throne which was sucky but the cause wasn't lost. Magnus was to be returned to Terra, where he would sit on the broken toy and do what the Royal Emperor Meatbag does now.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:And there was me thinking that the newly formed Council of Terra had something to do with it.

Newly formed by ...

He didn't do it all on his own though did, he was busy restructuring the Imperial army.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:He had 2 years to rewrite the book, they could have gone from Ambassadors and Governors to the best way to be oppressors, making Lions fears real. You're right, we know otherwise, but the Lion doesn't.

And that's the fulcrum upon which we can judge the Lion's judgment.

What, because we know otherwise, because we can see into the future? How does the character of the Lion do this, not even the Emperor with his foresight can see the outcome of the Heresy.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:He could go and attack Guilliman, but he's going to meet him and find out what he is up to, despite of what he fears.

"I will stop Horus and Guilliman." ... doesn't really sound like a tentative appraisal.

So you can use what happens in the future and what we know but I can't? We know that Lion and Guilliman don't come to blows over this. Actually though, do we? We don't know a great deal other than what has already made available to us, this is new ground. They updated the whole Alpha Legion story.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Sounds like it.

Indeed it does. Dorn was out of his mind with grief and shame. He started to use the Pain Glove more and more. His judgement was at least severely impaired at the Iron Cage. The Codex brought him back, cured him you might say. There is a reason that the Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines in rigid adherence to the Codex.

No, it was the sacrifice of him and his Legion during the Iron Cage that cured him, only then did he agree to the Codex.

Yeah, to show the Ultramarines how it's done properly.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Maybe you should go back and read the damn posts as well, this is from Lions perspective. The whole reason we are even having this conversation.

Uh ... exactly? The Lion has spoken to Guilliman and concluded that Guilliman is a traitor. We don't know what Guilliman said but we do know what he has been doing. So what we are seeing is not Guilliman's actual position (we have seen that elsewhere) but Jonson's take on it. And Jonson's take is hugely wrong.

True, but how is Lion supposed to know this?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:The Heresy just stopped because I haven't got evidence to back up what I believe to be the case.

What you haven't got evidence for is that Guilliman chose to allow Horus to rampage across the galaxy on a clear beeline to Terra because Guilliman wanted the Imperium to fall.

No I don't, but I do have proof that for the 2 years in question, he has been writing his book, leaving his legion to fight mock battles, It's there on the page. So the Heresy is still going on around him.

Mr Manchu, it's been fun, but I think I'll be ducking out soon, I am with you and have been from the start, we know that Guilliam isn't a Traitor because we know the outcome, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective and investigating the possibility. I guess what I am trying to say is that if you were the Lion, what would you do? Or say you were fresh to the Heresy series and had never heard of it before, what would you make of it?

SkyD wrote:Magnus would help use the Golden Throne and teach members of the Imperium to control and use their psychic skills.

OOOH something about the Thousand Sons.

If this was the Emperor actual intention then why bother with Nikaea? Why not haul Magnus ass back to Terra there and then, along with the Sons, and set up the Emperors version of Hogwarts?

Pretty simply put, the things the audience knows that the Lion doesn't know allows us to evaluate his attitude. Somehow, he managed to equate Guilliman with Horus. Now I know that's not the message you got from Rules of Engagement. So you know the Lion's conclusion here MUST point to a problem with the Lion rather than with Guilliman.

Manchu wrote:Pretty simply put, the things the audience knows that the Lion doesn't know allows us to evaluate his attitude. Somehow, he managed to equate Guilliman with Horus. Now I know that's not the message you got from Rules of Engagement. So you know the Lion's conclusion here MUST point to a problem with the Lion rather than with Guilliman.

Yes, it's a problem that the Lion has with Guilliman. What gave Lion this doubt is what I am eager to find out. Well, eager is a bit strong, I guess 'would like to' would be a better term.

I'm more interested in finding out what happens in the Signus Cluster

Pilau Rice wrote:

If this was the Emperor actual intention then why bother with Nikaea? Why not haul Magnus ass back to Terra there and then, along with the Sons, and set up the Emperors version of Hogwarts?

Magnus said that the Emperor told him that the Golden Throne was still too unstable for Magnus to have any involvement yet. Ironically, had he taken Magnus with him back to Terra, the Golden Throne probably would have been completed. In any case, Russ was supposed to bring Magnus back to Terra to control the Goldent Throne while the Emperor repaired the damage to the Webway.

Manchu wrote:Pretty simply put, the things the audience knows that the Lion doesn't know allows us to evaluate his attitude. Somehow, he managed to equate Guilliman with Horus. Now I know that's not the message you got from Rules of Engagement. So you know the Lion's conclusion here MUST point to a problem with the Lion rather than with Guilliman.

Until the 2 follow ups of KNF are out, I doubt you can evaluate what the Ultramarines and their Primarch are about to do or plan.
So all you got to evaluate the Lions attitude is something you don't know.
I'd call this a wobbly basis to stand on, if you point to the Lion as cause of the problem.

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:Pretty simply put, the things the audience knows that the Lion doesn't know allows us to evaluate his attitude. Somehow, he managed to equate Guilliman with Horus. Now I know that's not the message you got from Rules of Engagement. So you know the Lion's conclusion here MUST point to a problem with the Lion rather than with Guilliman.

Until the 2 follow ups of KNF are out, I doubt you can evaluate what the Ultramarines and their Primarch are about to do or plan.
So all you got to evaluate the Lions attitude is something you don't know.
I'd call this a wobbly basis to stand on, if you point to the Lion as cause of the problem.

I know i backed out, but i felt i had to comment on this as its one thing I didn't quite get to say IIRC:

Man's got a point.
We only really know what happened after the Heresy and what has happened in the current HH series, but we don't know the motivation.

Guilliman turns up late for the party at Terra, has the most intact force of any of the Legion's and becomes Lord Commander of the Imperium, with the Emperor practically dead and Horus actually dead.
Could this have been for 'innocent' reasons, or more suspicious reasons as the Lion believes - we don't know yet IMHO.

It wouldn't be hard for the BL to change it so Guilliman wasn't entirely loyal to the Emperor, but instead to humanity's continued existence, or so he becomes the fence-sitter, as Pilau earlier suggested. And personally, I'd like such a change; it'd add a really interesting dynamic to Guilliman IMHO, but wouldn't change the Ultramarines themselves from practically being the pinnacle of the Astartes.

Aaaand I'm gone!

Pilau Rice wrote:If this was the Emperor actual intention then why bother with Nikaea? Why not haul Magnus ass back to Terra there and then, along with the Sons, and set up the Emperors version of Hogwarts?

Maybe to send the Thousand Sons back to adopt the changes from Nikaea and then get back to their main job of pursuing the Great Crusade?

Just Dave wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:Pretty simply put, the things the audience knows that the Lion doesn't know allows us to evaluate his attitude. Somehow, he managed to equate Guilliman with Horus. Now I know that's not the message you got from Rules of Engagement. So you know the Lion's conclusion here MUST point to a problem with the Lion rather than with Guilliman.

Until the 2 follow ups of KNF are out, I doubt you can evaluate what the Ultramarines and their Primarch are about to do or plan.
So all you got to evaluate the Lions attitude is something you don't know.
I'd call this a wobbly basis to stand on, if you point to the Lion as cause of the problem.

Man's got a point.
We only really know what happened after the Heresy and what has happened in the current HH series, but we don't know the motivation.

Guilliman turns up late for the party at Terra, has the most intact force of any of the Legion's and becomes Lord Commander of the Imperium, with the Emperor practically dead and Horus actually dead.
Could this have been for 'innocent' reasons, or more suspicious reasons as the Lion believes - we don't know yet IMHO.

It wouldn't be hard for the BL to change it so Guilliman wasn't entirely loyal to the Emperor, but instead to humanity's continued existence, or so he becomes the fence-sitter, as Pilau earlier suggested. And personally, I'd like such a change; it'd add a really interesting dynamic to Guilliman IMHO, but wouldn't change the Ultramarines themselves from practically being the pinnacle of the Astartes.

You fools, you've doomed us all

Just Dave wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:If this was the Emperor actual intention then why bother with Nikaea? Why not haul Magnus ass back to Terra there and then, along with the Sons, and set up the Emperors version of Hogwarts?

Maybe to send the Thousand Sons back to adopt the changes from Nikaea and then get back to their main job of pursuing the Great Crusade?

My point was more in relation to this

SkyD wrote:Magnus would help use the Golden Throne and teach members of the Imperium to control and use their psychic skills.

More so the teach the Imperium part as we know that he did intend Magnus to sit on the throne. If the Emperor had wanted the Thousand Sons to teach the Imperium how to use their psychic skills safely and effectively, why at Nikaea didn't he say Magnus points are valid and that we will embrace the use of Psykers, rather than psykers bad

Oh no, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either Guilliman spends two years drilling his legion in Ultramar and we already know his motivations during this period thanks to Rules of Engagement or he doesn't and we don't. So for those who read Rules of Engagement -- Congratulations! You do not need to wait to know what happens: Jonson tragically wastes time and resources barking up the wrong tree, just as Horus planned.

The position of "we don't know yet only" only applies to those who haven't been reading already published sources.

Manchu wrote:Oh no, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Sure i Can. Just today at 15.00, delicious cake....

Manchu wrote:
Either Guilliman spends two years drilling his legion in Ultramar and we already know his motivations during this period thanks to Rules of Engagement or he doesn't and we don't. So for those who read Rules of Engagement -- Congratulations! You do not need to wait to know what happens: Jonson tragically wastes time and resources barking up the wrong tree, just as Horus planned.

The position of "we don't know yet only" only applies to those who haven't been reading already published sources.

So you admit that gulliman sat 2 years on his ass and wrote on his book? Instead of fighting the traitors, instead of guiding his Legion in an active role against his former brothers?
To write a book for the aftermath of the storm. Exactly the point made, he created something beyond the actual Imperium led by his father. A imperium secundus. Johnson, subscribing to the emperors imperium, barks at the tree of the brother who sits up there and plans for a different future. Doesn't look like its the wrong tree..

So where may I find Gullimans intend at the period before the final clash at Terra?

Oh man. Do I really need to go through that again? Couldn't you just read the past two pages?

How about a single line, called source mayhaps? Like book, page, paragraph..

And no, the last pages were too 'blue' to be healthy, so to keep my sanity for the weekend...

It's pretty simple. The idea that Guilliman is hanging out in Ultramar killing time until the Emperor bites it would be a pretty big fething deal. You'd think that a story about that time period would mention something like that. In fact, Rules of Engagement does not say that. It says the opposite: some primarchs will doubt his loyalty but he will not see his father's empire burn. So we know exactly what Guilliman's motives are plus we have some nice foreshadowing of how his less-foresighted borthers will react. And which brother could have less foresight than Jonson? (Hint: none of them.) So then we get a short story about this very issue, where the Lion equates Horus and Guilliman. This is interesting because it is exactly what Guilliman predicted (explaining why he would take the initiative to contact Jonson) and at the same time exactly what Horus wanted to happen.

Manchu wrote:It's pretty simple. The idea that Guilliman is hanging out in Ultramar killing time until the Emperor bites it would be a pretty big fething deal. You'd think that a story about that time period would mention something like that. In fact, Rules of Engagement does not say that. It says the opposite: some primarchs will doubt his loyalty but he will not see his father's empire burn. So we know exactly what Guilliman's motives are plus we have some nice foreshadowing of how his less-foresighted borthers will react. And which brother could have less foresight than Jonson? (Hint: none of them.) So then we get a short story about this very issue, where the Lion equates Horus and Guilliman. This is interesting because it is exactly what Guilliman predicted (explaining why he would take the initiative to contact Jonson) and at the same time exactly what Horus wanted to happen.

pretty big fething deal-time:

Roboute Gulliman completed his Magnum Opus.


So his work was dedicated to try to save something that hasn't come to pass. Gullliman subscribed to the cause, the general idea of the Emperors plans.



In Gullimans eyes, the Imperium was lost. Not lost after the final battle, but right there, 2 years after Calth. He even admitted it as a betrayal. Admitted the treachery of it. Assumed his gene-father would agree on his actions. Assumed the dream and ideals would live on.
But we know, the ideals didn't live on. The dreams died, his father wasn't able to make a statement about these plans. So all that we got here, is Roboute Gulliman, guilty of giving up on the Imperium his father created because he thought he could save the ideals and dreams , his way. Was the Lion wrong to deem this new Imperium a different place, something that isn't the Imperium he swore fealty to? An Imperium of one of his brothers making, brothers who couldn't be trusted as before?

Foresight isn't a talent of the Lion. But he isn't the one with the worst result. Ferrus Manus, charged right into the trap of Horus and his bandwagon of partycrashers. Was followed by two of his brethren, pulled into this trap because they had to follow or split the battlegroup further. Surely the not so loyal presented a reason to be late, didn't they? Set up a nice firebase then..
And Gulliman? He didn't expect Lorgar to attack his Legion. He didn't expect Lorgar to find something else to worship.
He didn't expect his defenses could be turned on his own men. So where is this foresight now?

Yes Horus got what he wanted, The Ultramarines far away, 3 Legions depleted and luckily the wolves and the sons took each other
out. Horus din't get the BA and the WS where he wanted them, both returned to Terra. As did the DA and the SW. Plus Horus forces weren't as effective as they had been as a band of brothers pre-heresy. Some just choose to follow their own path...
The Lion should have foreseen this all is your point? Did Gulliman see this outcome? Or was it easier to rebuild on ashes?



Distrust and the betrayal of Perturabo didn't help in communications with his brothers.



The Lion knows of plans but does not concur. Does this make him lacking foresight? Or is he entitled to his own opinion?
But he's also going to meet his brother:



Do we know the outcome?
If I didn't miss a HH release, a guess of we don't know yet would have a good chance to be true, right?



The Lion disagrees with Gullimans plans. He deems unending war the only solution, to drag all of the contenders He sees there,
back to the old ways, the Imperium of the Emperors design.

In the end, neither Gulliman nor the Lion got their wishes fulfilled. Gullimans plans keep the Imperium floating but the dreams and ideals are lost. The Lions plans didn't generate an option to return to the era of the GC , but the unending war was granted.
I see lots of "winners".

You're not bringing anything new to the table. Guilliman felt the Imperium to be lost BUT did not give up on it. He saw how the original plan had collapsed under faulty assumptions and resolved to conceive and execute a better one.

And Gulliman? He didn't expect Lorgar to attack his Legion. He didn't expect Lorgar to find something else to worship.
He didn't expect his defenses could be turned on his own men. So where is this foresight now?

Oh really? You mean, years of careful planning turned out to be based on incorrect assumptions? I guess the best thing to do would be to rush into a fight now that all your preparations count for nothing - OR - you rebuild, reformulate, adapt, prepare yourself for a new world that you could not have expected. By all means, give me more opportunities to show why Guilliman is the general men like the Lion and even Horus wish they could be.

The Lion should have foreseen this all is your point?

For the thousandth time, no. Please read the thread. The point that I'm arguing against is that Jonson's suspicions of Guilliman are evidence that Guilliman might be a traitor. That's NOT evidence of anything about Guilliman. My counterpoint is that Jonson's suspicions about Guilliman are just further evidence that the Lion is not good a measuring the character of others.

They say each of the Primarchs represents some aspect of the Emperor's own personality. Perhaps the Lion represents the Emperor's fatal weakness: his seeming blindness to the treachery of his closest ally. As I already said ITT, Luther is Jonson's own personal Horus.

Meanwhile, even though the Ultramarines reduced themselves to a chapter of strictly 1000, they have managed to preserve Ultramar for 10,000 years while also fighting across the Imperium. Ultramar is the only place in M41 that even comes close to the highest ideals of the Emperor's Great Crusade.

All I get from everything to have taken place so far was that Guilliman was a defeatist at a very crucial time during the HH and it just so happend to steer the course of the HH to a conclusion that favors his Legion and legacy.

Wow, I didn't have to rant a whole page to sum that up.

Manchu wrote: Guilliman felt the Imperium to be lost BUT did not give up on it. He saw how the original plan had collapsed under faulty assumptions and resolved to conceive and execute a better one.

He gave up on it. To replace, you have to drop. No way around this. He deemed his own actions a betrayal, a treachery.
And the arrogance to think he could do better, than the Emperor himself.... what better evidence one can ask for?
Oh wait, you added this claim of a better execution. Can't blame Gulliman for Manchu's post...
The real point of rules of engagement is, Gulliman planned for the time after. The time after the fight was over. The time when he could build upon ashes. He also planned to have opposition, to force it his way. So yes, rules of engagement confirms the plans of Gulliman were formulated after Calth. Took him 2 years. The heresy was said to be a 7 years affair. So he spent 1/3 on a imperium secundus whilst the already existing Imperium needs him to confront the traitors. Didn't give up on the first Imperium, didn't he?

Manchu wrote: Oh really?

yes, really.

Manchu wrote: By all means, give me more opportunities to show why Guilliman is the general men like the Lion and even Horus wish they could be.

The Lion could out-general Gulliman whilst sleeping in the rock.
See, I can adapt to your style here..

Maybe, just maybe, one can cease this ultramar-fangroup posting style. Then, and maybe only then, we can return to accept the fact that Gulliman was beaten by a warp pimped traitor badly, ( Kor phaeron ) , that he didn't spot the fall of Lorgar ( KNF ) and amongst other things this makes him as imperfect as the rest of the boygroup.

Manchu wrote: The point that I'm arguing against is that Jonson's suspicions of Guilliman are evidence that Guilliman might be a traitor. That's NOT evidence of anything about Guilliman. My counterpoint is that Jonson's suspicions about Guilliman are just further evidence that the Lion is not good a measuring the character of others.

Everbody knows the Lion sucks at measuring the character of others, but the short story established he reacted with distrust and suspicion after his failure with Perturabo.
The evidence about anything about Gulliman would be in the meetings between Gulliman and the Lion. Events we don't know much of. Which is my point. Without something to find out what exactly is going on, the scraps we have still point towards 3 different views:
- Gullimans take, the old imperium lost, lets plan for a new one
- Horus take, I shall be Emperor instead of the Emperor
- the Lions take, I want to keep my fathers imperium, no matter the cost

But we do know there are followups to KNF. There is a followup to the thramas story arc too. Its an active story arc it seems.
All we have to do is wait. If were lucky, the meeting of Gulliman and the Lion isn't hidden from us.

Manchu wrote:
Meanwhile, even though the Ultramarines reduced themselves to a chapter of strictly 1000, they have managed to preserve Ultramar for 10,000 years while also fighting across the Imperium. Ultramar is the only place in M41 that even comes close to the highest ideals of the Emperor's Great Crusade.

You know how many worlds of a million in a galaxy will never see conflict?
You know who is the only Legion with a beneficial starting position?
You know who has the advantage of being the poster boys and thus graced with a totally different treatment than the rest?
You know, even the mightiest waagh would ping off on Ultramars plot armor.

So now your argument is plot armor?

Or that the Emperor is always right? Sorry, that is clearly not the case. Or do you think the Emperor and Horus actually have a secret pact?

Manchu wrote:So now your argument is plot armor?

Or that the Emperor is always right? Sorry, that is clearly not the case. Or do you think the Emperor and Horus actually have a secret pact?

To doubt the Emperor is heresy.

So let me attempt to show you what I am getting at:

The evidence about anything about Gulliman would be in the meetings between Gulliman and the Lion. Events we don't know much of. Which is my point.

But we do know there are followups to KNF. There is a followup to the thramas story arc too. Its an active story arc it seems.
All we have to do is wait. If were lucky, the meeting of Gulliman and the Lion isn't hidden from us.

So your argument to imagine Gulliman as no traitor, is based on missing data. Based on a current hole in the fluff, meetings and plans we don't know of their content or why the Lion disagreed.

OtoH, each Primarch swore fealty to the Emperor and the Emperors Imperium.
Makes Gulliman an oathbreaker. May make him a traitor in some eyes.

My argument is actually based on data that we have concerning the time period before and after the siege of Terra. Before that battle, Guilliman was clearly loyal. After that battle, Guilliman was clearly loyal. The suspicions of the a Primarch known for (1) paranoia and (2) poor judgement cannot possibly be evidence that Guilliman is likely to betray the Emperor and then immediately be redeemed in the time period for which we do not yet have the HH series level of detail.

Also, there are only two possibilities with the Emperor:

(1) He is fallible, did not foresee Horus's treachery, and the Imperium went to gak except inasmuch as Guilliman saved it

- OR -

(2) He is infallible, planned the Heresy himself, and ultimately wanted the galaxy to end up like it is in M41

They aren't great options. But you can pick either one.

1hadhq wrote:Makes Gulliman an oathbreaker.

He hasn't broken any oath.

Gulliman was loyal to his interpretation of the Emperors intend.
Planned to replace the old-imperium , before the Emperor was no longer mobile.

Sure go on, ignore that even Gulliman himself considered his plans heretical, treachery.
I mean, if you put a blind eye to a direct quote of a BL product...


6th ed is pretty clear at the changes of history, made by several interested factions. So a M41 view upon the HH is at best a time of myths. Because of this, I would suggest to wait until the HH series gets to the period of the events that follow the Lions announcement of a meeting with Gulliman. Just throwing in that actually, the next NL installment may contain the aftermath of thramas and if the DA are done there, maybe we can have the real events?

The Emperor . Didn't see the heresy ( the outcast dead IIRC ) but he played the great game to his best abilities, making the ultimate sacrifice. So N°2 is not supported.

Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

Lucky him...

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

Indeed. A better way of vindication was to head for Terra with his finest warriors and fastest ships, and sending the rest to join the Blood Angels or any of the pro-Librarian legions.

Question - why Fulgrim has a pro-librarian stance,when he thinks that psykic power is sign of inperfection and why nobody of the primarch's spoke in Magnus defence(IIRC only one white-scar did)?
I' think on Nikea Fulgrim backstabed Magnus maybe even Sanguinius....

I'm no sure if that was Fulgrim's position (I'm toasty and no near any books). However it's a believable position. It simply means that Librarians are fine for use by the lesser, not striving for super-duper perfection legions (ie. everyone else) but the EC weren't going to use magic as a crutch.

If you've ever read the Thomas Covenant novels, the attitude of the Bloodguard towards weapons is what I'm getting at.

AFAIK, Magnus was the only Primarch that testified. Which is unusual, since he charisma of a Primarch would go a long way towards making a case, one way or another.

daveNYC wrote:I'm no sure if that was Fulgrim's position (I'm toasty and no near any books). However it's a believable position. It simply means that Librarians are fine for use by the lesser, not striving for super-duper perfection legions (ie. everyone else) but the EC weren't going to use magic as a crutch.

If you've ever read the Thomas Covenant novels, the attitude of the Bloodguard towards weapons is what I'm getting at.

AFAIK, Magnus was the only Primarch that testified. Which is unusual, since he charisma of a Primarch would go a long way towards making a case, one way or another.

I didn't read Covenant, is he good?
And nobody ever mentions Kasper Hawser and his encounter with certain DEMON,which pushed the final ruling....

Lots of loose threads at the end of Prospero Burns. Seriously, that book had one of the best written sections of any BL book (and pretty damn good IMO regardless of the publisher) in the snow in the library section; but the loose threads, dropped balls, and just the amount of derp that the characters had to display in order to keep the plot on course to it's preordained conclusion was loco.

Donaldson never uses one word when five (or ten) will do. I'd definitely recommend the first trilogy. That said, the protagonist is a major anti-hero, and not in a lovable Han Solo sort of way. It does have some interesting takes on your usual High Fantasy setting.

Will try it...ty

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:HE DOES NOT SEND HIS LEGION TO TERRA TO SAVE THE EMPEROR'S LIFE.

YES HE DOES WHY WOULD YOU SAY OTHERWISE OH RIGHT BECAUSE YOU WILL BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO ARGUE THIS EVEN IF YOUR ARGUMENT DOES NOT MATCH PUBLISHED SOURCES.

Can we go back to normal posting now?

I'm sorry. Sometimes I like to place emphasis on certain points that I think are important, especially when the person I'm talking to seems to be completely missing the obvious implications of all evidence right in front of his face. Like this one time I was talking to my friend about Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith...

My Friend: "Yeah I guess it was alright, but I thought Yoda should have kicked the Emperor's ass. I mean, in the original trilogy they made Yoda out to be such a badass!"

Me: "Wait... wha??? Did you see some other version of original trilogy that I don't know about? Because in the one I saw Yoda LIVES IN A HUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A SWAMP, while the Emperor is the RULER OF ALL KNOWN SPACE. Now how do you think things got to be that way?"

Yeah, I talk pretty much exactly like how I type.

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Considering that upon learning of Horus' treachery every single other loyal primarch in the entire galaxy all came to the very same conclusion and immediately headed straight back to Terra?

Wrong yet again. I know you won't let the facts get in the way of your rant. The Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines were not present at Terra but were all en route to Terra during the siege -- despite Horus's plans of distracting them elsewhere.

According to "Rules of Engagement" Guilliman spends at least 2 years on Macragge writing his Codex and preparing his legion. What were the Dark Angels and Space Wolves doing? Well, the Dark Angels were fighting Night Lords. The Space Wolves were with the White Scars fighting Alpha Legion. In fact, the Space Wolves actually enable the White Scars to escape. And what do the White Scars do? Oh yeah, they head back to Terra AND SAVE THE EMPEROR'S LIFE.

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By Manchu's strict definition this would make him a traitor since he does not put the Emperor above all else.

I see what the problem is. You didn't understand my point about Magnus. My point was, when the Emperor gives you a direct order -- even saying you will be a traitor if you disobey -- and you disobey then you are a traitor no matter what. Nothing that Guilliman does or fails to do is even close to disobeying a direct command from the Emperor.

Cool story, bro. But you didn't address my point. Did the Emperor ever give his primarchs a direct order - "hey guys, try not to let me die if you can swing it - thanks"? We don't know for sure. If not then it may have been a sort of unspoken standing order. Maybe Guilliman is like borderline autistic or something, and if you don't spell it out for him he doesn't get it? Then again if you want to get really literal there was that one time that the Emperor made Horus warmaster and gave everyone a direct order to follow him, and I don't think the Emperor ever rescinded that order. I know, maybe Guilliman was waiting on Macragge for further clarification from the Emperor before proceeding against his brother. We wouldn't want to disobey a direct order afterall! I guess it all makes sense if you look at it that way.

Manchu wrote:I tend to agree that the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes. Guilliman did not rush headlong into disaster like every single one of his brothers.

If his other brothers, Khan and Sanguinius, had not rushed headlong into disaster the Imperial Palace would have surely fallen and the Emperor would have most likely died. Of course Guilliman seems to have been planning for just such an eventuality so it's all good, no?

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Explain Russ, Explain Vulkan If Dorn was a lesser person then he could have started another civil war and the Codex would have had the exact opposite of what Guilliman wanted.

It only came to a head with Dorn. And if another civil war had to be fought to wipe out the last of the traitors -- fine. The issue of the Codex was exactly this: was the Heresy truly over or was there one more battle to be fought? Guilliman, the man who saved the Imperium without declaring himself Emperor, tested the loyalty of the remaining Primarchs with one great decision. After the Heresy, the only thing the loyalist Primarchs had left was their legions. Would they be willing to sacrifice even this for the continued existence of the Imperium? Dorn proved himself loyal in the end but his psychosis lived on in the form of the Black Templars.

The Codex was a test of Dorn's loyalty you say? To whom or what? I may be wrong, but I don't recall the Emperor ever appointing Guilliman warmaster. If this had started another civil war it would not have been Dorn vs the Emperor - it would have been Dorn vs Guilliman. And last I recall Guilliman was not the Emperor.

Manchu wrote:What you haven't got evidence for is that Guilliman chose to allow Horus to rampage across the galaxy on a clear beeline to Terra because Guilliman wanted the Imperium to fall.

I see what the problem is. You are still arguing intent. Intent matters not. Only actions matter. Magnus acted with the best of intentions. He did not intend to harm the Emperor or the Imperium - he believed that he had knowledge which justified his disobedience. But his actions were in direct defiance of the Emperor's orders. Guilliman did not intend for the Emperor to be struck down. But his actions allowed it to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:Guilliman turns up late for the party at Terra, has the most intact force of any of the Legion's and becomes Lord Commander of the Imperium, with the Emperor practically dead and Horus actually dead.
Could this have been for 'innocent' reasons, or more suspicious reasons as the Lion believes - we don't know yet IMHO.

Even if he planned it, there's nothing necessarily sinister about it. Can you imagine if the Ultramarines had made it to Terra and the White Scars hadn't? What if Guilliman had ended up dead at the foot of Horus' throne? And after Dorn had finished fixing the Emperor up to the Golden Throne, the White Scars, Space Wolves and Dark Angels had all showed up? What would have happened then? Maybe Russ would have ended up reorganizing the Imperium (after killing the Lion of course). Mankind would have been screwed.

daveNYC wrote:I'm no sure if that was Fulgrim's position (I'm toasty and no near any books). However it's a believable position. It simply means that Librarians are fine for use by the lesser, not striving for super-duper perfection legions (ie. everyone else) but the EC weren't going to use magic as a crutch.

Attendees and their positions;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#Attendees

If it was a vote then the use of Librarians/Psychic powers other than Astrotelepaths and Navigators would have been "For"

For= 11 Votes
Against= 5 votes
Unknown/Undecided= 13 Votes.

It could be argued that the SW stance would have been "For" had they not believed that the Thousand Sons had put a spy in their midst, although it is most likely this belief that set the stage for Nikaea in the first place.

Tadashi wrote:
Indeed. A better way of vindication was to head for Terra with his finest warriors and fastest ships, and sending the rest to join the Blood Angels or any of the pro-Librarian legions.

I've always wondered if one of the reasons Magnus didn't is because perhaps travel would take too long, or being more closely acquainted with the Aether meant he already knew his Legion would be waylaid. Or due to the Emperor being as strong as he was, the warning would be enough, that big boss could stop it happening without having to leave home in the physical.

Its sort of annoying not knowing exactly what the Emperor could do as a being.

DatrhMarko wrote:Question - why Fulgrim has a pro-librarian stance,when he thinks that psykic power is sign of inperfection and why nobody of the primarch's spoke in Magnus defence(IIRC only one white-scar did)?
I' think on Nikea Fulgrim backstabed Magnus maybe even Sanguinius....

Because while they were pro-Librarian, they were anti-sorcery. This is my own opinion but, I'm guessing it wasn't just Magnus who was shocked by how it turned out. I'd bet half a segmentum that while Sanguinius and the other pro-Librarian Primarchs wanted Magnus to stop using sorcery, they never wanted Magnus to be ostracized. The only one who probably drew enjoyment from the way it turned out was Leman Russ - who continued to make use of Rune Priests (making him just as guilty in breaking the Edicts of Nikaea).

Well so every legion is guilty then by that standards, not just backbreaker Russ...
Now Tadashi I'know that you are chaos worshiper and you hate my space wolves but here is the truth in funny-stupid-arrogant Magnus way:


Funny from a red guy with one aye and I dare to say little gay

If he was,he should have died on Prospero like he intended to...Tzeench probably pissed himself when he heard that

OMG what a lie

and he learned this after his back was broken and was just a puppet

DatrhMarko wrote:Well so every legion is guilty then by that standards, not just backbreaker Russ...

Not really, seeing as only the Sons and the Wolves are the ones who continued to make use of Sorcerers/Rune Priests, at least until the Edicts were amended/repealed. One of the audio books (not sure which one) had Garro recruiting a former Ultramarine Librarian who, like the other Librarians of his legion, turned in his wargear after Nikaea. He used his powers on the battlefield, and was shunned by his legion, forcing him to accompany Garro back to Terra.

We know from Index Astartes III that Imperial Fist and Blood Angel Librarians were directed by the Emperor during the Siege of Terra against Chaos Sorcerers...and in Know No Fear Guilliman made it clear he sought to have the Edicts repealed after Horus was defeated. Either Malcador, Guilliman, or even the Emperor himself amended/repealed the Edicts before the Siege of Terra.

Now Tadashi I'know that you are chaos worshiper and you hate my space wolves...

The reason I use Captain T'kar as an avatar is because I feel no loyalty to the current Imperium...which is for all intents and purposes a twisted and monstrous parody of what the Imperium once was and should have been, ruled by prima donna bureaucrats and in the grip of religious fanatics and idiots little better than the dregs of Chaos.

While I personally have no love for the Wolves of Fenris or their gene-father, I actually applaud their willingness to go against the Inquisition and the greater Imperium to uphold the Emperor's ideals. Ideals which, unfortunately, the Imperium has thrown away and stepped/spit on.

I serve the Emperor, fighting for the ideals of the Imperium, not mewling maggots or their ignorant, shortsighted, and fearful proclamations.

So you are chaotic good guy (which there are none in 40k):- )Hey o'kay-but seriously you have sometimes very strong arguments which are nagging little towards "you serve a dead corpse whos soul is picked clean centuries ago" attitude:-)
....o and without inquisition,imperial cult,SoB 40k would be less interesting:-)
P.S. T'kar was da man,he should have joined wolves,he would be a good sniping spoter.....just kidding, but seriosly, he had most epic death EVER- man that was loyal and a sacrifice ...he should have explained that to Magnus....

DatrhMarko wrote:So you are chaotic good guy (which there are none in 40k):- )Hey o'kay-but seriously you have sometimes very strong arguments which are nagging little towards "you serve a dead corpse whos soul is picked clean centuries ago" attitude:-)

Thanks for the compliment...but after reading so much Horus Heresy novels, my fury against the Ecclesiarchy is boiling over - I never liked those guys, and after learning that the Emperor actively denounced religion to the degree we see in the Horus Heresy novels, well, you can imagine.

TBH, the only problem I have with the Wolves is their handling of the Prospero affair, and that Russ could have been more diplomatic in how he handled his beef with Magnus. Everything else is great about them, especially where they blew an Ecclesiarchy ship out of the sky for 'trespassing' and them fighting the Khornate Knights and the Inquisition for the sake of their (and originally, the Imperium's) ideals. That is not say I think what Magnus did was right - I agree with Captain Kalliston. There was a better way to vindication - taking the fastest ships and best warriors to Terra and sending the rest to join a legion that was undoubtedly loyal and sympathetic to the Sons. I would choose between the White Scars, the Blood Angels, and the Ultramarines.

....o and without inquisition,imperial cult,SoB 40k would be less interesting:-)

The Inquisition I can tolerate as a necessity...the Imperial Cult, see above.

P.S. T'kar was da man,he should have joined wolves,he would be a good sniping spoter.....just kidding, but seriosly, he had most epic death EVER- man that was loyal and a sacrifice ...he should have explained that to Magnus....

Yeah, he was. When he realized what he had become, he chose to die while he still had the mind and sanity of a Space Marine and more importantly, as a Human. Captain Kalliston went down in a similar manner - after he learned from Kharn what had happened, he renounced Magnus's actions as insane or incomprehensibly evil that any further loyalty to him would be meaningless. Later on, as Kharn delivered the death blow, he wondered if he had not offered to help Kharn regain his sanity, he would have survived and rejoined his legion, then realized that he preferred to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium'.

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

If Magnus thought that then he must have had an exceptionally bad memory from when the Emperor told him the exact opposite in a face-to-face meeting in front of other Primarchs as the main decree of a council.

Manchu wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

If Magnus thought that then he must have had an exceptionally bad memory from when the Emperor told him the exact opposite in a face-to-face meeting in front of other Primarchs as the main decree of a council.

C'mon, now you're just being willfully dense. Magnus thought that since he was saving the Imperium by his actions the Emperor would forgive him his use of sorcery. Guilliman thought that since he was saving the Imperium by his actions the Emperor would forgive him for hanging him out to dry. You're the only one who doesn't see a parallel here.

I have shown many times that your argument is built on thin air.

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, he was. When he realized what he had become, he chose to die while he still had the mind and sanity of a Space Marine and more importantly, as a Human. Captain Kalliston went down in a similar manner - after he learned from Kharn what had happened, he renounced Magnus's actions as insane or incomprehensibly evil that any further loyalty to him would be meaningless. Later on, as Kharn delivered the death blow, he wondered if he had not offered to help Kharn regain his sanity, he would have survived and rejoined his legion, then realized that he preferred to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium'.

And that is my point over Magnus-he was a puppet all the way (read: traitor in eyes of imperium) and should have died like a man(every other loyal primarch would)...I'mean there's always a choice,no matter how hard it was...
first traitor choice- escape with his "KNOWLEGE" ,his life and small part of his legion, sell himself and OTHERS to a highest bidder- EASY CHOICE
second bad choice-He JOINS HORUS,betrayes everything in what he belives(jep with a guy who is REALLY GUILTY OF BURNING PROSPERO) to get even with the wolves,very dishonest and disloyal move(from a guy who said that he is most loyal son)- EASY CHOICE
My point -he isn't worthy of his legion,never was and RUSS should have beheaded him on Shrike,and did everybody a favor
P.S. what about his sleeper agents?


And again wolves are weapon,once unleashed nobody can stop them,HORUS pushed them, c'mon even Magnus said to Mortarion-Do you hate your pistol,or the man who wields it?

Manchu wrote:I have shown many times that your argument is built on thin air.

No, you've said that many times. You've never shown it. Numerous other posters have shown how your arguments are based on willful ignorance of the latest published source material. 1hadhq was even so kind as to provide you quotes (reposted here for your convenience).



By his own admission Guilliman has turned his back on the Imperium. This is a betrayal. He says it himself. He believes it is for a worthy goal. He believes that the Emperor will forgive him. But he believes that it is a betrayal nonetheless. And his actions all support this interpretation. He does not defend the Emperor on Terra. He prepares his legion for the aftermath. I cannot make it any clearer for you.

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah, he was. When he realized what he had become, he chose to die while he still had the mind and sanity of a Space Marine and more importantly, as a Human. Captain Kalliston went down in a similar manner - after he learned from Kharn what had happened, he renounced Magnus's actions as insane or incomprehensibly evil that any further loyalty to him would be meaningless. Later on, as Kharn delivered the death blow, he wondered if he had not offered to help Kharn regain his sanity, he would have survived and rejoined his legion, then realized that he preferred to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium'.

And that is my point over Magnus-he was a puppet all the way (read: traitor in eyes of imperium) and should have died like a man(every other loyal primarch would)...I'mean there's always a choice,no matter how hard it was...
first traitor choice- escape with his "KNOWLEGE" ,his life and small part of his legion, sell himself and OTHERS to a highest bidder- EASY CHOICE
second bad choice-He JOINS HORUS,betrayes everything in what he belives(jep with a guy who is REALLY GUILTY OF BURNING PROSPERO) to get even with the wolves,very dishonest and disloyal move(from a guy who said that he is most loyal son)- EASY CHOICE
My point -he isn't worthy of his legion,never was and RUSS should have beheaded him on Shrike,and did everybody a favor
P.S. what about his sleeper agents?


And again wolves are weapon,once unleashed nobody can stop them,HORUS pushed them, c'mon even Magnus said to Mortarion-Do you hate your pistol,or the man who wields it?

I' m not so sure that every other loyal primarch would have chosen death in that situation . If it was just a matter of the primarch's life, I think any of them, Magnus included, would have chosen death. But faced with the destruction of their Legion, effectively their children?And they're dieing is not due to anything that they've done? I wouldn't be so quick to claim that Magnus was especially weak to make the decision to run.

If we go by your own logic Abadabadoobaddon then Corax too would be a traitor, since he decided not to stay on Terra and defend the Emperor. His reasoning for not doing so was because of the way his legion fights (mobility and flexibility were its hallmarks.) So Corax made his decision based on the logical conclusion that his men could achieve more if they did what they were best at (gorilla warfare.) So do we now call him a traitor for abandoning Terra in its darkest hour? No we do not. Corax plan was sound and the Emperor agreed with it.

As for Guilliman’s decision for not rushing to Terra, we can conclude the following:

1: the 13th legion trained for the oncoming battle against multiple legions (both traitor and loyalist.) Said decision makes tactical sense, as the ultramarines would need to be prepared for the upcoming battle.

2: Under Guilliman’s leadership the 13th legion decided not to rush towards Terra.
This too makes sense, trying to do otherwise they would run the risk of being intercepted by Horus much larger force, and subsequently be destroyed (making the situation even worse for the loyalist.)

3. Instead Guilliman decided to link up with other loyalist forces (this so far includes the remnants of 10th legion.)
It’s a given that with a much bigger force their chances of defeating Horus army increases and with the power of foresight we know that the eminent arrival of the ultramarines, dark angels and space wolfs forced Horus to gamble (end result: the loyalist wins.)

Like Corax, Guilliman’s choice made sense. The only difference between the two was Corax having the luxury of the Emperor’s approval, while Guilliman had to make his own decisions (which military commanders often have to do.)

I don’t think a man whose efforts saved the human race form total annihilation can be considered traitor. Perhaps you could call him a defeatist, but not a traitor.

Well Dave,why did Magnus lied to his legion about "flashchange never happening again"?
And I'like to point out that he intended to sacrifice his legion( moment - loyal Magnus):
Only tragedy is Ahriman-he's like Loken of the Thousand sons,I'mean even now he cares much more for his legion then ever Magnus did...Should we talk about battle of the Fang and how much did red's satisfaction cost Thousand sons?

Battle of the Fang was about a lot more than Magnus' "satisfaction".

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By his own admission Guilliman has turned his back on the Imperium. This is a betrayal. He says it himself. He believes it is for a worthy goal. He believes that the Emperor will forgive him.

I am quite shocked by your inability to distinguish the argument you are making from the meaning of the text. The text makes it clear that the actions could and would be considered betrayal by those who do not understand them. It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

Redcruisair wrote:Perhaps you could call him a defeatist, but not a traitor.

Even that is too ridiculous. Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By his own admission Guilliman has turned his back on the Imperium. This is a betrayal. He says it himself. He believes it is for a worthy goal. He believes that the Emperor will forgive him.

I am quite shocked by your inability to distinguish the argument you are making from the meaning of the text. The text makes it clear that the actions could and would be considered betrayal by those who do not understand them. It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

I am shocked by your inability to comprehend the English language. What he says is that the Emperor would understand his betrayal while others would not.

Nope. There is a parallel structure contrasting the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create a tension between his actions as they would by misunderstood and as they would be properly understood.

Manchu wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

If Magnus thought that then he must have had an exceptionally bad memory from when the Emperor told him the exact opposite in a face-to-face meeting in front of other Primarchs as the main decree of a council.

You seem to forget the Emperor made the decree to keep the peace, his threat wasn't a threat at all, it was merely a way of shutting up Russ and the other detractors. If the Emperor had meant the threat then the Space Wolves/Sisters of Silence/Custodes force would not have been given the orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, they'd have been ordered outright to eliminate Magnus and his legion. We know for a fact that the Emperor's orders were to bring Magnus back, that it was either Horus or the Horus/Daemon that changed the orders.

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Manchu wrote:

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Aye, and the Emperor brooded angrily on the Golden Throne for his personal failure all the way to the end.

Manchu wrote:

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Did the Emperor send them there to kill Magnus? No he didn't, your argument, falls down immediately because of that simple fact. The Emperor DID NOT order Magnus be killed, his orders were "Bring Magnus to Terra for judgement".



Those last 5 words speak volumes.

Please tell me what you think that text means, particularly with regard to Constantin Valdor.

Also, no one dispute that Horus revised the Emperor's orders with regard to Magnus. But with regard to his legion? Horus's trick required no real talent: Russ was present when the Emperor decreed that Magnus would be his enemy should he defy the Council. Horus's revision would make sense to Russ.

The Emperor's decree was not just to shut up Primarchs like Russ. It was to impress upon Magnus the seriousness of the Council. Magnus betrayed the Emperor anyway. It then became Russ's duty to apprehend the traitor.

Chief Custodian that Valdor was, he would be under the impression the Thousand Sons were using sorcery because his man Amon was controlled by the False Thousand Son "Amon". Just like Russ thought Kasper was under the control of Thousand Sons. Hence Russ brought up "Magnus put a traitor in my ranks and is using sorcery." The Emperor is given no choice, he must act or risk losing time to a possible civil war/falling out in his own ranks which puts back the Crusade even further.

Valdor's personal problems he voiced and used to try and sway Russ. Just like Russ used his personal problems and opinions to try and sway The Emperor. Much the same as you use your personal opinions and whatnot to argue your points and I use mine and others use theirs.

We have 3 people who do things the Emperor most likely or they know won't like, but they trust the Emperor will see they didn't mean it in a "Traitor worthy of death" sense. That what they did, they did out of love or respect or honour of the Emperor, not out of hate and spite and thrown toys out of the cot sense that Horus has.

Think about it, if the Emperor really wanted to stop the use of psychic powers completely, he'd have outright killed the Librarians, Magnus and Thousand Sons, they were right there. He had to be seen to do something that would satisfy the detractors (who were outnumbered) while also not fully alienating those who were for Librarians and psychic powers. He's already down 2 legions, he'd lose a 3rd if the detractors got what they really wanted and then X amount of members of other legions.

What exactly the Emperor had in store for Magnus is not known. There is no reason to believe it was mercy. At best, death. At worst, to be chained for ten thousand years and more to the Golden Throne.

Manchu wrote:What exactly the Emperor had in store for Magnus is not known. There is no reason to believe it was mercy. At best, death. At worst, to be chained for ten thousand years and more to the Golden Throne.

But we do know he was needed for the Golden Throne. Chained to it isn't right either, we don't know. The Golden Throne pre-breakage might not have needed 24 hour sitting, the breaks blew a lot of things up, only the Emperor knew and as of yet no book is written from his view or what goes on in his mind, we all work on what we know from what others wrote.

To make a big speculation; Magnus risks himself to warm the big boss. Given we know nothing on the Emperors power limits we have no idea exactly why Magnus took that avenue. The Emperor is powerful enough to help ships navigate into a space where it would be impossible to do so without his guidance, but he does this without having to strain himself, it was no effort at all, something the next most powerful psyker (Magnus) couldn't do. He'd either have to concentrate everything on the navigation help or have his mind elsewhere. So we have an understanding the Emperor is at least X amount more powerful than Magnus. The Emperor knew Horus was doing what he was doing before Magnus arrived, so the Emperor most likely knows what everyone is doing while their doing it and doesn't need to focus on it, that he can still do this when Sisters of Silence are near him means his power is then X amount more than what a Sister can negate. So if Magnus warns the Emperor, Magnus is doing so in knowledge that the Emperor can do something, while standing right there on Terra, on the other side of the galaxy, which would have effects on beings on other side of the galaxy.

We just don't know how powerful the guy is, we do know he's a threat to the Gods of the Warp. For all we know the Emperor could be the same as Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars, a guy who, in further, post movie writings, can destroy a world he's nowhere near through the use of a force storm. The Emperor may very well be able to crush ships that are in the process of warp travel.
Now a person could say if he was capable of all that, then why send Astartes, etc on the crusade to bring worlds back into the fold? Same reason a Daemon needed Kasper's mind, without the names, you have no power. Magnus thought he had power over something, but he only had a certain name, not the right name.

Manchu wrote:Nope. There is a parallel structure contrasting the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create a tension between his actions as they would by misunderstood and as they would be properly understood.

Nope. There is a parallel structure comparing the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create tension between two concepts that are usually considered contrary but in this case are one and the same.

SkyD wrote:Chief Custodian that Valdor was, he would be under the impression the Thousand Sons were using sorcery because his man Amon was controlled by the False Thousand Son "Amon". Just like Russ thought Kasper was under the control of Thousand Sons. Hence Russ brought up "Magnus put a traitor in my ranks and is using sorcery." The Emperor is given no choice, he must act or risk losing time to a possible civil war/falling out in his own ranks which puts back the Crusade even further.

Valdor's personal problems he voiced and used to try and sway Russ. Just like Russ used his personal problems and opinions to try and sway The Emperor. Much the same as you use your personal opinions and whatnot to argue your points and I use mine and others use theirs.

We have 3 people who do things the Emperor most likely or they know won't like, but they trust the Emperor will see they didn't mean it in a "Traitor worthy of death" sense. That what they did, they did out of love or respect or honour of the Emperor, not out of hate and spite and thrown toys out of the cot sense that Horus has.

Think about it, if the Emperor really wanted to stop the use of psychic powers completely, he'd have outright killed the Librarians, Magnus and Thousand Sons, they were right there. He had to be seen to do something that would satisfy the detractors (who were outnumbered) while also not fully alienating those who were for Librarians and psychic powers. He's already down 2 legions, he'd lose a 3rd if the detractors got what they really wanted and then X amount of members of other legions.

FACT-Magnus admited that he had placed spies into space wolves , which justifies Wolfkings paranoia -and I'HATE PEOPLE WHO HAVE RED ONLY "THOUSAND SONS" and not "Prospero burns" and thus giving crapy arguments...
I'think ,like you said,that meeting with Amon(demon) pushed the Emperor toward's final ruling...

It really comes down to me at least, that the Emperor decreed psychic powers to be not used. Magnus defied this and knowingly disobeyed a direct order from the Emperor, effectively branding himself a traitor. IF it really came down to it, i don't think the Emperor would allow them to survive as a Legion for so openly disobeying him and for just the fact that all of them are affected by the warp in some way.

I think we'd be kidding ourselves to believe in any scenario in which Magnus would have come to Terra in chains willingly with Russ.

Manchu wrote:I think we'd be kidding ourselves to believe in any scenario in which Magnus would have come to Terra in chains willingly with Russ.

Why?

According to the Emperor's own word, Magnus was the Emperor's enemy. The Cyclops rationalized his arrogance by claiming it was for the best. Once Russ showed up to haul him away, Magnus would either have to (1) acknowledge that the Emperor still did not agree with him and now considered him an enemy -OR- (2) delude himself that the Emperor was grateful and that Russ had gone rogue. In either situation, Magnus would fight. In the second instance, he'd fight out of the same thin veneer of "loyalty" that he believed justified his betrayal. In the first instance, he'd fight because the Emperor would have demonstrated with finality the lack of vision Magnus had accused him of, at least deep down, since the Council of Nikaea. The idea that Magnus would simply hang his head and accept his fate is impossible -- if that was his character then he would have already accepted his fate at Nikaea. It doesn't get any more serious than the Emperor saying "obey me in this matter or you are my enemy and I will destroy you."

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.
And no, until you can show what Gulliman directs towards Terra, the source I know of is pretty clear its the combined might of loyalists that Horus deems a threat worth a gamble for a quick victory. ( Hint: 3 Legions are mentioned. Not 1 ).

So these Blood Angels and Imperial Fists and White Scars and Custodes and Imperial Army elements and Titans etc etc are the ones to be there, to defend , to slaughter the cannonfodder and endless hordes of Demons, and to finally route the traitors and masscre them on their way out. Do they have to defeat Horus? No, because this is meant as a last stand story, where the sacrifice of the Emperor makes sense. Not a wardian mr unbeatable easily wipes thew floor with Horus and his Emperor was so ashamed so he fled to his throne room and isn't coming out since 10 millenia.

There are altered stories , like the attack on Calth as shown in index astartes and the same attack on Calth shown in KNF.
Still similarities, but where index astartes didn't leave Gulliman as unaware fool ( cleansing of agrippa ) and the link to the AL article hinted on the Ultramarines beeing waylaid too, the HH is the most recent telling of the story and the only one actually available. This imminent arrival your referring to here, is it from Visions of heresy? Because the HH series isn't at the Siege yet.

consider this:

- horus was aware of the reliability of his 'minions'.
- the AL and the NL, got to distract the loyalists. The AL may had agreed to, the NL seem to be off on their own already.
- the WB just had to go for the UM. But not all of them, and the real goal is IMO to start these warp storms to seperate the loyalists and the attack on the UM is their deluded idea of having revenge.
- the NL didn't keep the DA busy enough, or precisely failed to imagine the DA could catch them.
- the AL tried to keep the White Scars away, but failed, tried to keep the Wolves away, but nearly failed too. Or maybe its one of the twins doing...
- So who was Horus asset to keep the UM off?
- the AL, again? The NL, who showed less interest in the whole assault on Terra?
- the WB, who couldn't leave the rest alone, maybe one could change its mind if not motivated to go there?
- the WE, IW, EC, DG, SoH, the Legions he planned to use to assail the Palace?
- the depleted TS, a 1k force?
Seriously, Horus had nothing left to oppose Gulliman if he wouldn't use his main force for this. But then, losses and the delay may be enough to ruin the attack on Terra. Ultramar is far in the east, to get there and beat it, to return to Terra and beat it too...

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.
And no, until you can show what Gulliman directs towards Terra, the source I know of is pretty clear its the combined might of loyalists that Horus deems a threat worth a gamble for a quick victory. ( Hint: 3 Legions are mentioned. Not 1 ).

So these Blood Angels and Imperial Fists and White Scars and Custodes and Imperial Army elements and Titans etc etc are the ones to be there, to defend , to slaughter the cannonfodder and endless hordes of Demons, and to finally route the traitors and masscre them on their way out. Do they have to defeat Horus? No, because this is meant as a last stand story, where the sacrifice of the Emperor makes sense. Not a wardian mr unbeatable easily wipes thew floor with Horus and his Emperor was so ashamed so he fled to his throne room and isn't coming out since 10 millenia.

There are altered stories , like the attack on Calth as shown in index astartes and the same attack on Calth shown in KNF.
Still similarities, but where index astartes didn't leave Gulliman as unaware fool ( cleansing of agrippa ) and the link to the AL article hinted on the Ultramarines beeing waylaid too, the HH is the most recent telling of the story and the only one actually available. This imminent arrival your referring to here, is it from Visions of heresy? Because the HH series isn't at the Siege yet.

consider this:

- horus was aware of the reliability of his 'minions'.
- the AL and the NL, got to distract the loyalists. The AL may had agreed to, the NL seem to be off on their own already.
- the WB just had to go for the UM. But not all of them, and the real goal is IMO to start these warp storms to seperate the loyalists and the attack on the UM is their deluded idea of having revenge.
- the NL didn't keep the DA busy enough, or precisely failed to imagine the DA could catch them.
- the AL tried to keep the White Scars away, but failed, tried to keep the Wolves away, but nearly failed too. Or maybe its one of the twins doing...
- So who was Horus asset to keep the UM off?
- the AL, again? The NL, who showed less interest in the whole assault on Terra?
- the WB, who couldn't leave the rest alone, maybe one could change its mind if not motivated to go there?
- the WE, IW, EC, DG, SoH, the Legions he planned to use to assail the Palace?
- the depleted TS, a 1k force?
Seriously, Horus had nothing left to oppose Gulliman if he wouldn't use his main force for this. But then, losses and the delay may be enough to ruin the attack on Terra. Ultramar is far in the east, to get there and beat it, to return to Terra and beat it too...

Why should Horus feel the need to keep the UM off? Heck the forces he uses for the siege is so huge that not even the 13th legion can make him sweat. I will even be so bold to claim that leaving the way “relatively” open for UM was part of Horus plan B named: “lure the ‘boys in blue’ to our position and crush them under our iron heels.”

Manchu wrote:In either situation, Magnus would fight.

Given that you seem to be able to successfully construct posts that are at least grammatically correct, I'll assume that you have the ability to comprehend written English. Given this assumption and the content of the statement I have quoted above I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and therefore conclude that you have in fact not read A Thousand Sons. I highly recommend you do so before making any further comments regarding the sacking of Prospero. If you had read A Thousands Sons you would have noticed that it is explicitly stated that Magnus does NOT choose to fight. In fact he takes great pains to ensure that the Space Wolves achieve complete surprise in their attack, even going so far as to murder his own 5th Fellowship captain in cold blood to deprive his legion of advance warning of the impending invasion. He remains in his sanctum for the entire battle, only venturing out to confront Russ at the very end of the battle after his legion has been decimated (literally). Then he kills a mere handful of Space Wolves before losing to Russ and whisking the remainder of his legion away to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Can someone please tell me how many thousand sons are left (without fanboy crap)?...Fact - only 1000 of them escaped Prospero(and some of them had a flash change upon arrival on pots:-) and most of them were decimated at the battle of the Fang...
According to lexicanum they are mere warbands now...and please add Ahriman and his Co...
So how many sorceres and how many rubric marines (which I dont count because they don't have any will)?

P.S. Don't tell me 1000

Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Manchu wrote:In either situation, Magnus would fight.

Given that you seem to be able to successfully construct posts that are at least grammatically correct, I'll assume that you have the ability to comprehend written English. Given this assumption and the content of the statement I have quoted above I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and therefore conclude that you have in fact not read A Thousand Sons. I highly recommend you do so before making any further comments regarding the sacking of Prospero. If you had read A Thousands Sons you would have noticed that it is explicitly stated that Magnus does NOT choose to fight. In fact he takes great pains to ensure that the Space Wolves achieve complete surprise in their attack, even going so far as to murder his own 5th Fellowship captain in cold blood to deprive his legion of advance warning of the impending invasion. He remains in his sanctum for the entire battle, only venturing out to confront Russ at the very end of the battle after his legion has been decimated (literally). Then he kills a mere handful of Space Wolves before losing to Russ and whisking the remainder of his legion away to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Look man,you have to be little more pragmatic- Magnus DID fight (he didn't want to at first,but he DID)-his legion DID fight(not listening Magnus),he CHOSE the worst solution...Why?
Because he was the first choice for the chaos,not Horus(you have read that probably, you know -his talk with certain chaos entity-god)...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Funny :-) Please count (1000 survivors) - (xxx casualties)...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Funny :-) Please count (1000 survivors) - (xxx casualties)...

Considering the huge gap between the Burning of Prospero and the Battle of the Fang, I don't think we can count how many survivors there are.

hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.

The assault on Earth by Bill King: A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away

No mention of the Ultras in the original tale.

WD 233 Has the Dark Angels and Space Wolves make Planet fall on Terra at the end of the Siege but no mention of the Ultramarines.

An excuse could be

IA: Ultramarines: Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus.

DatrhMarko wrote:hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

I'm pretty sure they can't recruit - there's nothing in their armor but dust, and I doubt anyone collects the gene-seed of fallen Sorcerers.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

I'm pretty sure they can't recruit - there's nothing in their armor but dust, and I doubt anyone collects the gene-seed of fallen Sorcerers.

and 4th felowship was just a survivors from 4th felowship( 30-45:-)
and my point is that there are like 300(max) of them ,of course not counting rubric marines...
Buuuuut 10x more potent...

As far as I know the Sons can't recruit, but they can replenish. I think it is mentioned in a Space Wolves novel that the Sorcerers are able to rehost suites of armour with those Rubicae that have been defeated in battle.

Don't hold me on that though.

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

I'm pretty sure they can't recruit - there's nothing in their armor but dust, and I doubt anyone collects the gene-seed of fallen Sorcerers.

and 4th felowship was just a survivors from 4th felowship( 30-45:-)
and my point is that there are like 300(max) of them ,of course not counting rubric marines...
Buuuuut 10x more potent...

There are no Rubricae among the Fourth Fellowship's survivors, since they never went to the Planet of the Sorcerers and therefore were out of the AoE of the Rubric of Ahriman.

I know:-)But weren't they clashed with WE-and meatgrinder Kharn upon return on Prospero?Also you don't now if 4th fel. was whole out of battle...In TS it is stated that of 10000 TS only 1000 escaped with their lives...and when the 4th united with the rest?

DatrhMarko wrote:In TS it is stated that of 10000 TS only 1000 escaped with their lives...and when the 4th united with the rest?

That ignores the 1000-strong Fourth Fellowship that departed with the Armada, on Magnus' orders, shortly before the Wolves arrived. This also comes from A Thousand Sons. In Rebirth, Captain Kalliston reveals they were attacked by unidentified forces, so he ordered the fleet to disperse. In A Thousand Sons, they were given sealed orders from Magnus, but Kalliston returned to Prospero with the Fourth's command element, so we can safely assume that those orders were not to rendezvous with the rest of the legion or something along those lines, seeing as the reason Kalliston came back to Prospero was to discover what went wrong. Kalliston dies there (like T'kar he decides at the end its better to die loyal as opposed to survive as a traitor), but Sergeant Arvida vows to recontact/unite the other Fourth Fellowship Astartes across the galaxy and lead them against the true causes of their legion's destruction. Given this information, we can safely conclude that whatever was left of the Fourth never rejoined the rest of their legion, and might just be serving the Imperium under a different name...

@1hadhq: The SW and DA are headed to Terra at the same time as the UM. The SW are a smaller legion to begin with and had just been whittled down by the destruction of Prospero and being harried by the Alpha Legion. Whatever the size of the First Legion, only half could have showed up because the other half were traitors. So it's obvious that the Ultramarines would make up the bulk of the forces Horus was worried about.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:In TS it is stated that of 10000 TS only 1000 escaped with their lives...and when the 4th united with the rest?

That ignores the 1000-strong Fourth Fellowship that departed with the Armada, on Magnus' orders, shortly before the Wolves arrived. This also comes from A Thousand Sons. In Rebirth, Captain Kalliston reveals they were attacked by unidentified forces, so he ordered the fleet to disperse. In A Thousand Sons, they were given sealed orders from Magnus, but Kalliston returned to Prospero with the Fourth's command element, so we can safely assume that those orders were not to rendezvous with the rest of the legion or something along those lines, seeing as the reason Kalliston came back to Prospero was to discover what went wrong. Kalliston dies there (like T'kar he decides at the end its better to die loyal as opposed to survive as a traitor), but Sergeant Arvida vows to recontact/unite the other Fourth Fellowship Astartes across the galaxy and lead them against the true causes of their legion's destruction. Given this information, we can safely conclude that whatever was left of the Fourth never rejoined the rest of their legion, and might just be serving the Imperium under a different name...

I've read (listened) Rebirth-it's like "Hostel" 40k -and all the way thinking that some SW was the torcherer:-)
btw I've red Thousand sons and Prospero burns like 3-4 times( and all the heresy books),so sorry about my retoric,my point is that there are only few hundred sons left,and no way like you said in previous post 1000....

As for the 4th -hm blood ravens,perhaps

Is there an actual quote that says that the fourth fellowship is 1000 strong?

Pilau Rice wrote:Is there an actual quote that says that the fourth fellowship is 1000 strong?

Yes, if only because a Fellowship is just another name for 'Chapter', or 'Grand Company'. However, I will point out that as they were attacked and caught off-guard (why else would Captain Kalliston order the fleet to disperse), it is unlikely the survivors number a full thousand Astartes. Even Sergeant Arvida considered at best there being a hundreds, and at worst, only himself.

Well in TS Chapters were referred to as Fellowships so 10(fellowships) x1000(marines) like it's writen in lexicanum-but that was also my point- we dont't know, how many 4th had if 9000 were dead on Prospero and 1000 escaped.....
I' mean how many of the 4th was divided...

DatrhMarko wrote:

I've read (listened) Rebirth-it's like "Hostel" 40k -and all the way thinking that some SW was the torcherer:-)
btw I've red Thousand sons and Prospero burns like 3-4 times( and all the heresy books),so sorry about my retoric,my point is that there are only few hundred sons left,and no way like you said in previous post 1000....

But its clear in Rebirth that both Kalliston and Arvida have no further loyalty to Magnus, with the former considering Magnus's actions as either insane or incomprehensible evil that any further loyalty to him would be meaningless, while the latter surprisingly never shared his legion's complete devotion to Magnus. Another interesting part is Arvida vowing to avenge Prospero and the Thousand Sons not on the Space Wolves (who he knew burned Prospero to the ground) but on the true cause of its destruction - Chaos. While Magnus certainly was wrong to use sorcery to warn the Emperor, he partially redeemed his legion by sending the Fourth Fellowship and the fleet away, as seen by Kalliston's final sacrifice, Arvida's vow, and finally, assuming the Blood Ravens are the Fourth Fellowship with a different name, their actions over the millennia should have redeemed them more than enough.

As for the 4th -hm blood ravens,perhaps

Its certainly very probable, and one I certainly believe in, but lets not open that can of worms shall we?

DatrhMarko wrote:Well in TS Chapters were referred to as Fellowships so 10(fellowships) x1000(marines) like it's writen in lexicanum-but that was also my point- we dont't know, how many 4th had if 9000 were dead on Prospero and 1000 escaped.....
I' mean how many of the 4th was divided...

I've already posted an answer to that. Its likely that they left Prospero with a thousand Astartes, but since they were caught in a surprise attack by an unknown enemy, they were most likely decimated. Arvida (who was a Corvidae and therefore quite reliable no matter what the Wolves say regarding prognostications) believed at best hundreds were left from the Fourth Fellowship, and at worst, himself alone. He also knew, as only a Corvidae could know, that he would survive, learn the true cause of his legion's destruction, and fight it.

Ok,then there was 11000 of them,before heresy-and what is Arvida saying is what I'm posting last 20 pages of this thread,this is not black and white situation,there are no good guy's in this story-only stupidity,arrogance,thirst for knowlege and blind hate...
Man, how Ahriman and Co murdered that chick,just to get, few mumbles of the future, turn completly my opinion of them....from there I'realized why they were Tzeench's favorite -and again chaos wanted Magnus as their champion,Horus was a second choice....

DatrhMarko wrote:Ok,then there was 11000 of them,before heresy-and what is Arvida saying is what I'm posting last 20 pages of this thread,this is not black and white situation,there are no good guy's in this story-only stupidity,arrogance,thirst for knowlege and blind hate...
Man, how Ahriman and Co murdered that chick,just to get, few mumbles of the future, turn completly my opinion of them....from there I'realized why they were Tzeench's favorite -and again chaos wanted Magnus as their champion,Horus was a second choice....

Eh? Team Chaos has a lot of issues, but picking their champion isn't really one of them. Horus is a superior choice for head chaos honcho for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that he was already the head honcho of all the Imperial forces in the galaxy. Post Nikaea, Magnus was only in charge of the Sons and the Spireguard, not the best base to build a force capable of taking Terra. Plus, Horus had charisma and respect from most of the other primarchs, if Magnus had revolted, who exactly could he count on to rally to his side?

And all the legions did, shall we say, questionable things over the course of the crusade. The Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson (on the Emperor's orders). The Lion allowed his planet to be turned into an industrial hellhole in order to supply his legion with equipment (hey guys, we saved you from the chaos tainted beasts, now get ready to spend the rest of your days slaving away in a factory). The Wolves rescued a planet from Dark Eldar, then when the natives were uninterested in joining the Imperium, immediately turned on them and started chopping (seriously, they would have been better served by mentioning the natives debt to the Imperium and that the DE could return and that there were even nastier critters out there (orks) that would eventually come knocking). If you're looking for a legion that wouldn't kill an inocent in order to get information that they considered crucial to the survivial of their legion, then the only Astartes that wouldn't turn your stomach would be the Salamanders. They are the only legion with a moral code that specifically calls for the protection of the weak. Even in the 30k setting, the good guys had a relatively flexible definition of the word 'good'.

What they did to the precog was wrong, but it doesn't make them uniquely bad, even relative to the loyalist legions.

daveNYC wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:Ok,then there was 11000 of them,before heresy-and what is Arvida saying is what I'm posting last 20 pages of this thread,this is not black and white situation,there are no good guy's in this story-only stupidity,arrogance,thirst for knowlege and blind hate...
Man, how Ahriman and Co murdered that chick,just to get, few mumbles of the future, turn completly my opinion of them....from there I'realized why they were Tzeench's favorite -and again chaos wanted Magnus as their champion,Horus was a second choice....

Eh? Team Chaos has a lot of issues, but picking their champion isn't really one of them. Horus is a superior choice for head chaos honcho for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that he was already the head honcho of all the Imperial forces in the galaxy. Post Nikaea, Magnus was only in charge of the Sons and the Spireguard, not the best base to build a force capable of taking Terra. Plus, Horus had charisma and respect from most of the other primarchs, if Magnus had revolted, who exactly could he count on to rally to his side?

And all the legions did, shall we say, questionable things over the course of the crusade. The Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson (on the Emperor's orders). The Lion allowed his planet to be turned into an industrial hellhole in order to supply his legion with equipment (hey guys, we saved you from the chaos tainted beasts, now get ready to spend the rest of your days slaving away in a factory). The Wolves rescued a planet from Dark Eldar, then when the natives were uninterested in joining the Imperium, immediately turned on them and started chopping (seriously, they would have been better served by mentioning the natives debt to the Imperium and that the DE could return and that there were even nastier critters out there (orks) that would eventually come knocking). If you're looking for a legion that wouldn't kill an inocent in order to get information that they considered crucial to the survivial of their legion, then the only Astartes that wouldn't turn your stomach would be the Salamanders. They are the only legion with a moral code that specifically calls for the protection of the weak. Even in the 30k setting, the good guys had a relatively flexible definition of the word 'good'.

What they did to the precog was wrong, but it doesn't make them uniquely bad, even relative to the loyalist legions.

I'can see you didn't read thousand sons...
Here is talk with certain chaos entity-GOD and Magnus after he destroyed webway

Manchu wrote:@1hadhq: The SW and DA are headed to Terra at the same time as the UM. The SW are a smaller legion to begin with and had just been whittled down by the destruction of Prospero and being harried by the Alpha Legion. Whatever the size of the First Legion, only half could have showed up because the other half were traitors. So it's obvious that the Ultramarines would make up the bulk of the forces Horus was worried about.

No. The UM had to come from much further away (in fact, I believe there's a sarcastic timeline of the UM that has them "conveniently on the other side of the galaxy" whenever bad gak goes down), and, were never even mentioned in the fluff blurb that has Horus commit to his last gambit. AFAIK, that was due solely to the impending arrival of Russ and Johnson, the two Primarchs closest to him in battle ability, and their Legions,

@Bran Dawri: Mentioned in what fluff blurb?

Again -Here is whole conversation between Tzeench and Magnus-AND EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS DOOMED FROM THE START- and fact that he was more powerful then Horus + first choice for chaos

magnus had charisma, but he was also depsised by mortarion and the wolf.

Yep, and in a weird way I think Russ sniffed the taint in him from the start...

DatrhMarko wrote:Again -Here is whole conversation between Tzeench and Magnus-AND EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS DOOMED FROM THE START- and fact that he was more powerful then Horus + first choice for chaos

Spoiler:

“A mirror? Even now you appeal to my vanity,” said Magnus, dreading what this signified.
“I told you it was the easiest trap to set,” said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. “Now you know the truth of it.”
“Was this always what you wanted?” asked Magnus. “To see me destroyed?”
“Destroyed? Never!” cried the reflections, as though outraged by the suggestion. “You were always to be our first choice, Magnus. Did you know that?”
“First choice for what?”
“To bring about the eternal chaos of destruction and rebirth, the endless succession of making and unmaking that has cycled throughout time and will continue for all eternity. Yes, you were always first, and Horus is a poor second. The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.”
The reflections smiled with paternal affection, “But I always knew you would be ours one day. While suspicious eyes were turned upon you and your Legion, we wove our corruptions elsewhere. For that you have my thanks, as the Blinded One has lit the first fire of the conflagration, though none yet see it for what it is.”
“What are you?” asked Magnus, stepping through the doorway to re-enter the wreckage of his chambers. Hoarfrost gathered on the splintered glass and his breath misted before him.
“You know what I am,” said his reflections. “Or at least you should.”
One splintered eye shifted, swirling until it became a fiery snake with multi-coloured eyes and wings of bright feathers: the beast he had killed beneath the Mountain of Aghoru. It changed again, morphing through a succession of shimmering forms, until Magnus saw the shifting, impossibly massive form of the shadow in the Great Ocean.
“I once named myself Choronzon to you, the Dweller in the Abyss and the Daemon of Dispersion, but those are meaningless labels that mortals hang upon me, obsolete the moment they are uttered. I have existed since the beginning of time and will exist beyond the span of this universe. Names are irrelevant to me, for I am every name and none. In the inadequate language of your youngling species, you should call me a god.”
“You were the one that helped me save my Legion,” said Magnus with a sinking heart.
“Save? No. I only postponed their doom,” said the shadow. “That boon is now ended.”
“No!” cried Magnus. “Please, never that!”
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time to make good on your bargain.”

You do realize that the demon in question sets up the scenario with his first couple of sentences with Magnus correct?



Telling Magnus what he did after the following is exactly what the demon was doing to Magnus. Seriously, taking a demon of Tzneetch or even Tzneetch at his word? You are as deluded as Magnus.

Redcruisair wrote:

Why should Horus feel the need to keep the UM off? Heck the forces he uses for the siege is so huge that not even the 13th legion can make him sweat. I will even be so bold to claim that leaving the way “relatively” open for UM was part of Horus plan B named: “lure the ‘boys in blue’ to our position and crush them under our iron heels.”

Its ok, so he fears the Lion and the Wolf so much that he has no sweat left when he gets the message of the 13th moving.

Pilau Rice wrote:

The assault on Earth by Bill King: A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away

No mention of the Ultras in the original tale.

WD 233 Has the Dark Angels and Space Wolves make Planet fall on Terra at the end of the Siege but no mention of the Ultramarines.

An excuse could be

IA: Ultramarines: Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus.

Good find. Wasn't aware where the story was hidden, the pre visions of...( CCG supplement ) variant of this.

Manchu wrote:@1hadhq: The SW and DA are headed to Terra at the same time as the UM. The SW are a smaller legion to begin with and had just been whittled down by the destruction of Prospero and being harried by the Alpha Legion. Whatever the size of the First Legion, only half could have showed up because the other half were traitors. So it's obvious that the Ultramarines would make up the bulk of the forces Horus was worried about.

SW are depleted, yes. But the DA aren't split in half and as a Legion which is recruting Imperial Army at Caliban too, I would not bet of them being easy to deal with.
The older fluff , quoted by PR above, had no UM at all. So IMO we are looking at a altered story and the current image of Gulliman would leave him to gather all he can rally. But, as nice and effective that may be, if you are running out of time all your awesome plans don't matter. Wars have been lost by coming too late... and Gulliman, would not make it in time.
Thus, the presence of the Legions who made it to Terra was neccessary.
IndexA startes 3 / Ultramarines mentions the war was over when Gulliman and his Legion arrived. ( page 25, right after the paragraph quoted by PR ). This may change or not, like the entry of the WB about Calth isn't exactly like KNF .

Volume IV : visions of death: ( page 42 )

...
The Space wolves on their own would pose no great threat to his impending triumph,
.....
However, the news of the ultramarines and the Dark Angels heading for Terra was a disaster for the Warmaster.
-....
These 3 Legions together would at best delay his victory, at worst they would deny it to him altogether.

Horus had gambled everything on being able to defeat the forces of Terra before the Emperor could muster help from his still-loyal Legions. With time seemingly against him it now appeared as if this gamble had failed.

Before, it was the SW and DA to pressure horus. Then it is a coalition of SW,DA and UM+friends.
The result is the same. Fleeing traitors and Horus destroyed.

The Loyalist forces present at the siege of Terra were most likely not enough to defeat Horus; otherwise, he would have planned things differently himself. The one argument against this is that he had planned to distract the White Scars but they were able to make it. And Horus still attacked, meaning that he either did not fear the Khan's legion, needed to proceed ASAP, or a mixture of both. (Plus, Magnus unexpectedly showed up to help him.) Even then, the siege was hardly a stalemate and Horus's forces were gaining ground. It was only when the Warmaster found out that the SW, DA, and UM were coming that he panicked. How ever formidable the SW and DA might be, those two legions together do not match the sheer number of UM (we can even set aside the concept of preparation, in which the UM were superior or at least equal) -- even if the SW and DA were at full strength, which they definitely were not.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:Again -Here is whole conversation between Tzeench and Magnus-AND EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS DOOMED FROM THE START- and fact that he was more powerful then Horus + first choice for chaos

Spoiler:

“A mirror? Even now you appeal to my vanity,” said Magnus, dreading what this signified.
“I told you it was the easiest trap to set,” said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. “Now you know the truth of it.”
“Was this always what you wanted?” asked Magnus. “To see me destroyed?”
“Destroyed? Never!” cried the reflections, as though outraged by the suggestion. “You were always to be our first choice, Magnus. Did you know that?”
“First choice for what?”
“To bring about the eternal chaos of destruction and rebirth, the endless succession of making and unmaking that has cycled throughout time and will continue for all eternity. Yes, you were always first, and Horus is a poor second. The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.”
The reflections smiled with paternal affection, “But I always knew you would be ours one day. While suspicious eyes were turned upon you and your Legion, we wove our corruptions elsewhere. For that you have my thanks, as the Blinded One has lit the first fire of the conflagration, though none yet see it for what it is.”
“What are you?” asked Magnus, stepping through the doorway to re-enter the wreckage of his chambers. Hoarfrost gathered on the splintered glass and his breath misted before him.
“You know what I am,” said his reflections. “Or at least you should.”
One splintered eye shifted, swirling until it became a fiery snake with multi-coloured eyes and wings of bright feathers: the beast he had killed beneath the Mountain of Aghoru. It changed again, morphing through a succession of shimmering forms, until Magnus saw the shifting, impossibly massive form of the shadow in the Great Ocean.
“I once named myself Choronzon to you, the Dweller in the Abyss and the Daemon of Dispersion, but those are meaningless labels that mortals hang upon me, obsolete the moment they are uttered. I have existed since the beginning of time and will exist beyond the span of this universe. Names are irrelevant to me, for I am every name and none. In the inadequate language of your youngling species, you should call me a god.”
“You were the one that helped me save my Legion,” said Magnus with a sinking heart.
“Save? No. I only postponed their doom,” said the shadow. “That boon is now ended.”
“No!” cried Magnus. “Please, never that!”
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time to make good on your bargain.”

You do realize that the demon in question sets up the scenario with his first couple of sentences with Magnus correct?

Spoiler:

“A mirror? Even now you appeal to my vanity,” said Magnus, dreading what this signified.
“I told you it was the easiest trap to set,” said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. “Now you know the truth of it.”

Telling Magnus what he did after the following is exactly what the demon was doing to Magnus. Seriously, taking a demon of Tzneetch or even Tzneetch at his word? You are as deluded as Magnus.

okay - maybe it wasn't Tzeench(demon's lie I- know)-but indentifies with him -but c'mon what is here unbelievable?Btw ty for the insight...

DatrhMarko wrote:Again -Here is whole conversation between Tzeench and Magnus-AND EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS DOOMED FROM THE START- and fact that he was more powerful then Horus + first choice for chaos

Spoiler:

“A mirror? Even now you appeal to my vanity,” said Magnus, dreading what this signified.
“I told you it was the easiest trap to set,” said the reflections, their voices slippery and entwined. “Now you know the truth of it.”
“Was this always what you wanted?” asked Magnus. “To see me destroyed?”
“Destroyed? Never!” cried the reflections, as though outraged by the suggestion. “You were always to be our first choice, Magnus. Did you know that?”
“First choice for what?”
“To bring about the eternal chaos of destruction and rebirth, the endless succession of making and unmaking that has cycled throughout time and will continue for all eternity. Yes, you were always first, and Horus is a poor second. The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.”
The reflections smiled with paternal affection, “But I always knew you would be ours one day. While suspicious eyes were turned upon you and your Legion, we wove our corruptions elsewhere. For that you have my thanks, as the Blinded One has lit the first fire of the conflagration, though none yet see it for what it is.”
“What are you?” asked Magnus, stepping through the doorway to re-enter the wreckage of his chambers. Hoarfrost gathered on the splintered glass and his breath misted before him.
“You know what I am,” said his reflections. “Or at least you should.”
One splintered eye shifted, swirling until it became a fiery snake with multi-coloured eyes and wings of bright feathers: the beast he had killed beneath the Mountain of Aghoru. It changed again, morphing through a succession of shimmering forms, until Magnus saw the shifting, impossibly massive form of the shadow in the Great Ocean.
“I once named myself Choronzon to you, the Dweller in the Abyss and the Daemon of Dispersion, but those are meaningless labels that mortals hang upon me, obsolete the moment they are uttered. I have existed since the beginning of time and will exist beyond the span of this universe. Names are irrelevant to me, for I am every name and none. In the inadequate language of your youngling species, you should call me a god.”
“You were the one that helped me save my Legion,” said Magnus with a sinking heart.
“Save? No. I only postponed their doom,” said the shadow. “That boon is now ended.”
“No!” cried Magnus. “Please, never that!”
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time to make good on your bargain.”

I'd forgotten about that bit. Though this part:
would indicate that he wasn't doomed from the start. If he had been, then whatever Plan A was that team chaos was going for would have actually happened. Magnus' story, and indeed the nature of Tzeentzch itself, is all about choice. Without choices, without free will, there is no change. Getting Magnus to turn over involved applying all the right pressure at all the right time.
Magnus had to be shown that Horus would turn, so that he would attempt to prevent it, thus attracting Horus' eye and resulting in the change of orders to Russ.
Magnus had to try to warn the Emperor in order to have Russ be given the original order to nab Magnus in the first place.
Russ himself had to be primed for the kill, first by the insertion of the skald who himself had been touched by chaos in order to make Russ believe that Magnus was spying on him, second by the intervention of the daemon who impersonated the 1k Son (forget the name) at Nikeae, third by seeing the fleshchange back in action, and fourthly by the now turned Horus changing the Emperor's command from capture to kill.

Without all these actions, and without the free choices of all those involved, it is not a given that Magnus would have turned.

I'll even go further. Even now, ten thousand years later, Magnus is still making that choice. Tzeentzch is all about change, and change, the potential for true change, requires the ability to choose. Every day of their lives Magnus and the surviving Thousand Sons are chosing to do what they do. They are not slaves to their senses and base desires like the Emperor's Children, they're not blinded by their bloodlust like the World Eaters, nor are they dependent on their patron's gifts for their continued existance like the Death Guard. They are simply trapped by the web of action and interaction that Tzeentch put in motion, and their own choices that have kept them on that path ever since. They could change their path at any time, the nature of Tzeentzch requires that they have the ability to make that change, but their actions and the consequences of their actions mean that they will never do so. It is that that lets them be one of the most tragic, and at the same time the most utterly damned legions.

Here's a quick summery: the pre/heresy thousand sons wore red armor and were modeled after the Egyptians. They have many more psykers than the other legions. The thousand sons were on a mission to gather enormous amounts of knowledge (some even made it to the Black Library). They used bolters and standard space marine legion gear. The thousand sons used their knowledge for the betterment of mankind, but the emperor thought Magnus (their primarch) was the traitor because of his mastery of the warp and other events mentioned in Prospero Burns that framed the thousand sons.

daveNYC wrote:

I'd forgotten about that bit. Though this part:

Spoiler:

The Eternal Powers saw great potential in you, but even as we coveted your soul, you grew too strong and caused us to look elsewhere.”

would indicate that he wasn't doomed from the start. If he had been, then whatever Plan A was that team chaos was going for would have actually happened. Magnus' story, and indeed the nature of Tzeentzch itself, is all about choice. Without choices, without free will, there is no change. Getting Magnus to turn over involved applying all the right pressure at all the right time.
Magnus had to be shown that Horus would turn, so that he would attempt to prevent it, thus attracting Horus' eye and resulting in the change of orders to Russ.
Magnus had to try to warn the Emperor in order to have Russ be given the original order to nab Magnus in the first place.
Russ himself had to be primed for the kill, first by the insertion of the skald who himself had been touched by chaos in order to make Russ believe that Magnus was spying on him, second by the intervention of the daemon who impersonated the 1k Son (forget the name) at Nikeae, third by seeing the fleshchange back in action, and fourthly by the now turned Horus changing the Emperor's command from capture to kill.

Without all these actions, and without the free choices of all those involved, it is not a given that Magnus would have turned.

I'll even go further. Even now, ten thousand years later, Magnus is still making that choice. Tzeentzch is all about change, and change, the potential for true change, requires the ability to choose. Every day of their lives Magnus and the surviving Thousand Sons are chosing to do what they do. They are not slaves to their senses and base desires like the Emperor's Children, they're not blinded by their bloodlust like the World Eaters, nor are they dependent on their patron's gifts for their continued existance like the Death Guard. They are simply trapped by the web of action and interaction that Tzeentch put in motion, and their own choices that have kept them on that path ever since. They could change their path at any time, the nature of Tzeentzch requires that they have the ability to make that change, but their actions and the consequences of their actions mean that they will never do so. It is that that lets them be one of the most tragic, and at the same time the most utterly damned legions.

Like I'said doomed from the start(in your own words),he struggled-but he eventualy accepted his fate of archtraitor - when they were going down on prospero...
and Horus plan when pushing SW to attack Prospero (quote from the book) is to remove one of the toughest legion (wolves) out of his way (to Tera ofc) and destroy one legion that actually can hurt him(TS)...

and he achived both goals, TS would of been a challenge to him and possibly disatrous to deal with since they couldve fought the daemons in the warp. The wolves are so close the the WE in some ways but in others they are the exact opposite.

Gabrial Seth wrote:and he achived both goals, TS would of been a challenge to him and possibly disatrous to deal with since they couldve fought the daemons in the warp. The wolves are so close the the WE in some ways but in others they are the exact opposite.

yeah -Wolves are like good WE ,ha,ha,ha,ha

Archtraitor isn't the word you're looking for.
Doomed from the start implies a lack of free will, that Magnus never has a chance of not turning to Chaos. Magnus always had a choice about what he did. Not particularly good choices, but he still had options available.

daveNYC wrote:Archtraitor isn't the word you're looking for.
Doomed from the start implies a lack of free will, that Magnus never has a chance of not turning to Chaos. Magnus always had a choice about what he did. Not particularly good choices, but he still had options available.

I know, sorry but TRAITOR non the less,he was... (I sound like Yoda)..He still had a CHOICE no matter how tough it was.....

I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Nope. That was just foreshadowing the fact that Kharn is weapons grade loco and cares not from where the blood flows. There is also the cliché that evil pprovides the seeds for its own demise.

daveNYC wrote:Nope. That was just foreshadowing the fact that Kharn is weapons grade loco and cares not from where the blood flows. There is also the cliché that evil pprovides the seeds for its own demise.

So while they might not turn on Chaos itself, they might turn on themselves?

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

and the fact that he's mind is toast...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

and the fact that he's mind is toast...

Who? Kharn or Kalliston? Kalliston was thinking rationally at the end - he even wondered if he shouldn't have offered to help his cousin, and in so doing might have lived and rejoined his legion. But he finally decided he was right to try, and that to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium' was enough for him.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

and the fact that he's mind is toast...

Who? Kharn or Kalliston? Kalliston was thinking rationally at the end - he even wondered if he shouldn't have offered to help his cousin, and in so doing might have lived and rejoined his legion. But he finally decided he was right to try, and that to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium' was enough for him.

Kharn's Ofc...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

and the fact that he's mind is toast...

Who? Kharn or Kalliston? Kalliston was thinking rationally at the end - he even wondered if he shouldn't have offered to help his cousin, and in so doing might have lived and rejoined his legion. But he finally decided he was right to try, and that to die as a loyal 'Son of the Imperium' was enough for him.

Kharn's Ofc...

Oh...sorry, I misunderstood.

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Kharn will overthrow Khorne and become the new Blood God.

SkyD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Kharn will overthrow Khorne and become the new Blood God.

More likely do something that will start a chain-reaction of events leading to Khorne's demise.

Tadashi wrote:

SkyD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Kharn will overthrow Khorne and become the new Blood God.

More likely do something that will start a chain-reaction of events leading to Khorne's demise.

If Loken doesn't get to him second time(to finish the Job)...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

SkyD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Kharn will overthrow Khorne and become the new Blood God.

More likely do something that will start a chain-reaction of events leading to Khorne's demise.

If Loken doesn't get to him second time(to finish the Job)...

As I recall Kharn's still alive in the 41st Millennium, so...

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

SkyD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I have to wonder about Captain Kalliston's final vision before he died...he mentioned that at the end, Kharn would turn against whatever sought to use him. If we apply this not just to Kharn, does it mean the Traitor Legions will eventually turn against Chaos?

Kharn will overthrow Khorne and become the new Blood God.

More likely do something that will start a chain-reaction of events leading to Khorne's demise.

If Loken doesn't get to him second time(to finish the Job)...

As I recall Kharn's still alive in the 41st Millennium, so...

Kidding ofc,but maybe Loken is also:-)Who knows!?Grey Knight Garviel Loken right !?