The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
I don't know much about the TS or the HH apart from the basics, but as far as I know they weren't all pyskers, they were just prone to the mutation. Even post Heresy, they still use bolters, although they are imbued with really powerful chaos magicks that deal ridiculous amounts of damage. That's about all I know to your questions on the dust boys.
The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
Your forgetting that Magnus and the Sons weren't meant to be destroyed. Magnus' punishment was supposed to be to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor oversaw the Terran defense and repaired the damage to the Webway. And the Thousand Sons would have gotten a pardon anyway - by the time of the Siege of Terra, the Edicts had been amended, considering that the Emperor personally directed Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians during the penultimate assault on the Imperial Palace. Check Index Astartes III, pp. 40-47.
Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
No it doesn't the newest codex Literally says that those who were inflicted with the flesh change were turned into rubric marines!
Thats what it says!
All Astartes in the Thousand Sons. (According to the Horus Heresy Books and the Book a Thousand Sons and visions of War) That all sons are Pyskers.
Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
No it doesn't the newest codex Literally says that those who were inflicted with the flesh change were turned into rubric marines! Thats what it says! All Astartes in the Thousand Sons. (According to the Horus Heresy Books and the Book a Thousand Sons and visions of War) That all sons are Pyskers.
"On the other hand, their battle-brethren whose psychic potential had been slight or non-existent were permanently changed. The armor of the normal battle-brothers was sealed shut, as if every clasp and joint had been welded shut."
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.37
As for A Thousand Sons, you would notice that regular Battle-Brothers never made use of psychic powers, even after the Captains had ordered to do so, but only the Captains and other unit commanders. In other words, the Thousand Sons command structure was dominated by psykers, but the majority of the legion had little or no psychic ability. Even in Rebirth only Captain Kalliston and Sergeant Arvida had psychic powers among the squad that descended to the ruins of Tizca.
Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
The Emperor never makes mistakes.
They broke the Emperors law to send their message.
The Emperor did not need to be warned of Horus' corruption... he already knew.
TS when loyal were warrior scholars.
They were all psykers of some degree (4th ed. codex is outdated in relation to the HH revelations).
They used bolters and lighting (and fire and telepathy and so on).
All marines made after their primarchs were found did have families.
They were quite different. So different they were put to the blade by Russ.
They were all psykers of some degree (4th ed. codex is outdated in relation to the HH revelations).
Unlikely. We haven't had anything about the Siege of Terra yet from the HH novels, so the Codex entry on the Rubric of Ahriman still stands. And besides, in both A Thousand Sons and Rebirth, it was obvious majority of the Sons had no psychic ability, with only Captains and unit commanders possessing psychic abilities, indicating only the command hierarchy were predominantly psykers.
Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
Yes, yes, I've heard all that, but my point was that the Emperor wanted Magnus to control the Golden Throne while He repaired the Webway. And besides, who else apart from the Emperor could control the Throne without dying in the process? There's no way Magnus would have been executed had he been brought to Terra. The Thousand Sons too would have fought for the Imperium by the time the Imperial Palace should have been attacked.
Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
Yes, yes, I've heard all that, but my point was that the Emperor wanted Magnus to control the Golden Throne while He repaired the Webway. And besides, who else apart from the Emperor could control the Throne without dying in the process? There's no way Magnus would have been executed had he been brought to Terra. The Thousand Sons too would have fought for the Imperium by the time the Imperial Palace should have been attacked.
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Magnus had been shown his fate at the hands of the Emperor, sat on the Throne and screaming into the warp, would he really want that?
Magnus would have been trialled as a Traitor and the Thousand Sons destroyed.
Or like you say, not. But I very much doubt the outcome you describe would have been the likely one.
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Magnus had been shown his fate at the hands of the Emperor, sat on the Throne and screaming into the warp, would he really want that?
And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
Magnus would have been trialled as a Traitor and the Thousand Sons destroyed.
No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Hence the 'apparently' in my post, still doesn't change the fact that Tizca was destroyed.
Nothing to do with the Emperor wanting to take the fight to Horus then?
Tadashi wrote:And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
You know better as the reader, Magnus didn't. Magnus was already dancing a merry little jig to Tzeentchs tune, but his arrogance once again, made him oblivious to this.
Tadashi wrote:No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
He doesn't need Magnus now does he?
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
Given the circumstance he could have made a better choice in passing the message on to the Emperor. He wanted to show his Dad that sorcery was ok, look how that turned out, he nuked the Webway.
We know that he isn't a traitor, but the Emperor doesn't.
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Hence the 'apparently' in my post, still doesn't change the fact that Tizca was destroyed.
Nothing to do with the Emperor wanting to take the fight to Horus then?
Tadashi wrote:And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
You know better as the reader, Magnus didn't. Magnus was already dancing a merry little jig to Tzeentchs tune, but his arrogance once again, made him oblivious to this.
Tadashi wrote:No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
He doesn't need Magnus now does he?
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
Given the circumstance he could have made a better choice in passing the message on to the Emperor. He wanted to show his Dad that sorcery was ok, look how that turned out, he nuked the Webway.
We know that he isn't a traitor, but the Emperor doesn't.
Yes, all your points are valid. But I thought we were discussing what might have been.
Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
When the Emperor tells you not to do something, don't do it.
Unless you're a traitor.
As I mentioned, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind -- and that includes Magnus. But Magnus thought of himself as the Emperor's peer and was bent on convincing the Emperor that his sorcerous ambitions were the key to the future. In other words, Magnus risked everything on the proposition that he was right and the Emperor was wrong. But the Emperor was right. This shouldn't have come as a surprise. But so blinded was Magnus by his pride that he could not see how his ostensible good intentions would bring about is own ruin; how what he believed in his delusion to be an attempt to help was just treachery.
As far as the old "Horus tricked Russ" bit goes, it hardly matters. If it's true, it wouldn't have been a hard trick to pull. After all, Russ was present when the Emperor told Magnus that he would kill Magnus and destroy his legion if Magnus disobeyed the edict of Nikaea. Whether or not the Emperor intended Magnus to be dragged back in chains to Terra, he would never have pardoned Magnus. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Emperor would forgive direct insubordination.
Manchu wrote:Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
Have to agree on that account.
I don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Emperor would forgive direct insubordination.
Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
They did not have families (no Space Marines have families), although Ahriman was created along with his twin brother. They did use psychic powers a LOT during their battles, to the point that Ahriman chastised some of his brethren for being too dependent on them and neglecting their other martial training. They were quite frightening in combat, with some using telepathy to steal information from their enemies and coordinate the Sons, the pyrokines incinerating huge swaths of enemies, telekines creating impenetrable force barriers, and the augurs predicting the immediate future to give them even more advantages. They weren't all psykers, but most had some level of the spark. The only real source we have on them pre-Heresy is the Thousand Sons novel, and all of the characters we meet are high-level psykers.
Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other.
The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other.
The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
There could have been. Even in His final confrontation with Horus, the Emperor held back in the hope Horus would come to his senses and so give the Emperor a chance at redeeming His greatest son. I believe only once they became a Daemon Prince or had actually sworn allegiance to the Powers was all hope of redemption gone. So until that fateful moment before the Pyramid of Photep, Magnus could still have been redeemed.
Omegus wrote:
Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
They did not have families (no Space Marines have families), although Ahriman was created along with his twin brother. They did use psychic powers a LOT during their battles, to the point that Ahriman chastised some of his brethren for being too dependent on them and neglecting their other martial training. They were quite frightening in combat, with some using telepathy to steal information from their enemies and coordinate the Sons, the pyrokines incinerating huge swaths of enemies, telekines creating impenetrable force barriers, and the augurs predicting the immediate future to give them even more advantages. They weren't all psykers, but most had some level of the spark. The only real source we have on them pre-Heresy is the Thousand Sons novel, and all of the characters we meet are high-level psykers.
I don't think so. This is the grim darkness, after all. Second chances don't exist. There are two options: absolute, unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor - OR - betrayal. This is the dichotomy revealed by the Horus Heresy itself. In fact, this is the point of the story of Magnus. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp; ironically and tragically, the Warp was mastering him the entire time. Magnus underestimated the powers he was playing with, believing he was on the "safe side" of taint -- that he could "come back" if he started to go too far. The reality was that he was already too far.
Manchu wrote:I don't think so. This is the grim darkness, after all. Second chances don't exist. There are two options: absolute, unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor - OR - betrayal. This is the dichotomy revealed by the Horus Heresy itself. In fact, this is the point of the story of Magnus. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp; ironically and tragically, the Warp was mastering him the entire time. Magnus underestimated the powers he was playing with, believing he was on the "safe side" of taint -- that he could "come back" if he started to go too far. The reality was that he was already too far.
I would argue Chaos wasn't as strong then as it is now. Back then, Imperial Truth and progress had a chance of succeeding. Now, you're probably right. The strength of Chaos now is such that only complete and unwavering determination can ensure survival. Let us climb over the piles of our own dead and claim the future with bloodstained hands.
Manchu wrote:It depends on if you think the Imperial Truth was in fact true. For my own part, I think the "Imperial Truth" was just a part of the Emperor's plan.
Agreed. The Imperial Truth probably worked on the principle that if enough people believed in it, the Warp would make it true. The Emperor probably had something else in mind regarding the Imperial Truth. Perhaps He planned to use it to stabilize the Chaos Powers without the need for Him to die and exert Himself in the Warp directly.
I think the "Imperial Truth" was basically the Emperor wiping the slate clean, as it were. Over the millennia, humanity had developed all kinds of ideas to explain things like authority and what a good society is like. The Emperor, knowing what was actually going on behind the veneer of realspace, believed that humanity would have to have drastic change in its cultural foundations if it was going to dominate the galaxy. So the Great Crusade tore across the galaxy, smashing the local beliefs and cultures of long-lost humans to prepare the way for something else. Whether the Emperor himself even totally understood what that "something else" would be is debatable but I tend to think he did. And so, the Ruinous Powers did not show Horus a lie. They showed him the truth and relied on his own arrogance to make him reject the vision in favor of treachery -- which ironically brought about the very vision they showed him. Same with Magnus.
Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other.
The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
Actually, Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers when he made a deal with Tzeench to save his Legion. A lot of what people see as unbridled arrogance really strikes me as desperation and denial. He knew he crossed a line when he made that deal, which is why he was so desperate not to let his sons know about it.
Of course, you could argue that the Primarchs that fell to Chaos (Lorgar and Magnus in particular) were in the clutches of Chaos from the moment they were spirited away from the Emperor's secret laboratory, since we're told in several books that they worked their influence on the children gestating in the capsules (like Lorgar being assaulted by nightmares, which caused him to shy away from his powers).
Yes, I think the scattering of the primarchs was the result of the Emperor cutting deal with the Ruinous Powers to create them in the first place. Again, this is just my take, but the Emperor not only saw it as a calculated sacrifice but as a necessary step to ultimately incite the Heresy itself, which would be his smokescreen against the Warp Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:A lot of what people see as unbridled arrogance really strikes me as desperation and denial.
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
No he should of used Navigators send a message. It would of been easier and would stopped the entire webway project in turning into a MASSIVE failure.
Magnus deserved what he got. And his sons had to pay for it. They didn't deserve it.
He deserved to be hanged.
The Emperor told him not to use pyschic powers or else he will be wraith upon them. They disobeyed and did it anyway. They were suppose to be arrested but horus said no kill them all. Magnus did not know that horus sent the wolves. Not the emperor. To destroy them all.
Manchu wrote:Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
Have to agree on that account.
I don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Emperor would forgive direct insubordination.
Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
Emperor = "survives" on Golden Throne for five ten thousand years
Malcador = killed by Golden Throne is some relatively short period of time (minutes/days/months -- we haven't had that HH novel yet)
Since Magnus is usually referred to as the second most powerful human psyker ever to live, the idea is that he would have at least lasted longer than Malcador.
Manchu wrote:Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
Ever consider the possibility that this wouldn't have happened had the Emperor told the guy who was meant to sit on the Webway that he was making a big Webway gate?
The idea that the Emperor should be obeyed mindlessly without having to explain anything to his sons and most allegedly trusted generals is a sign that the Emperor isn't worthy of commanding.
The emperor obviously loved his sons. He is 3/4 dead because of his mercy with horus. So why couldn't he have just explained a few simple thngs to poor magnus?
The best answer is because the authors didn't have an explanation. Not all questions have answers, not all authors think of reasons why a living God would even feel the need to explain something to a subject he believed loyal.
Just a though. If the things did go according to plan, Thousand Sons being brought to terra, Magnus babysitting the golden throne and the legion being pardoned. They would've kicked so much Chaos A** during the siege of terra
Tadashi wrote:Your forgetting that Magnus and the Sons weren't meant to be destroyed. Magnus' punishment was supposed to be to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor oversaw the Terran defense and repaired the damage to the Webway. And the Thousand Sons would have gotten a pardon anyway - by the time of the Siege of Terra, the Edicts had been amended, considering that the Emperor personally directed Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians during the penultimate assault on the Imperial Palace. Check Index Astartes III, pp. 40-47.
Agreed, If I remember correctly didn't Horus or Lorgar basically twist the Emperor's words in Russ' mind to the point that went from bringing Magnus back to Terra, to thinking that the whole legion as well as Magnus needed to be wiped out? This may be outdated fluff and I can't remember the source so don't crucify me.
It was Horus and Valdor that whispered in Russ' ear. But honestly, Russ was ready to attack Magnus back on Shrike if Lorgar hadn't intervened (and in one possible alternate universe, Russ would have still attacked and Lorgar would have been killed in their battle).
Leman Russ indeed was ready to kill Magnus for the horrible crime of his legion defending themselves from the attacking Space Wolves. They went out of their way to nonlethally incapacitate the attacking Marines, which Russ, who by the way killed several Thousand Sons with his psychic roar, considered grievous enough an offense to try to murder a fellow Primarch.
Such a nice guy, his actions are indeed all totally justified.
Manchu wrote:
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
Written from a fluff perspective this is absolutely spot on, from our not so grimdark perspective Magnus wasn't a traitor until after the wolves came. There's a common phrase about a road and good intentions, it applies to Magnus.
Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
Mostly because the fluff has always said they were. There is also somewhat of a difference between sorcery and psykers in the 40k universe although that line tends to be pretty fluid. You have to look at the 40k universe as an intentionally conflicted world in which logic plays no part.
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
He disobeyed the Emperor and opened the deepest sanctum of the Imperium to the enemies of mankind. if James Bond cut a bloody swath to the Queen and crashed an Aston Martin through her bedroom wall to tell her zie Germans were coming they'd shoot him too. use the bloody phone (astropaths)
" the Emperor not only saw it as a calculated sacrifice but as a necessary step to ultimately incite the Heresy itself, which would be his smokescreen against the Warp Gods. "
Are you saying that the emperor wanted a heresy?
do you think the emperor knew Horus was corrupt from the start?
what do you mean a smoke screen against the warp gods?
why would the emperor bother creating the primarchs if he knew the chaos gods were going to claim a bunch of them anyways... so far over half were chaos or destroyed, 2 legions are gone. 1 of them were clearly close to Rogal dorn, Lorgar, and Magnus.
as far as i know, Lorgar is the only primarch who was always going to be corrupted
Konrad Curze, was always going to be to killed by his brothers or destroyed by the emperor eventually just like the lost legions, same with Magnus..
The world eaters are probably in the same vote as lorgar, curze, magnus...
Frecklesonfire wrote:" the Emperor not only saw it as a calculated sacrifice but as a necessary step to ultimately incite the Heresy itself, which would be his smokescreen against the Warp Gods. "
Are you saying that the emperor wanted a heresy?
do you think the emperor knew Horus was corrupt from the start?
what do you mean a smoke screen against the warp gods?
why would the emperor bother creating the primarchs if he knew the chaos gods were going to claim a bunch of them anyways... so far over half were chaos or destroyed, 2 legions are gone. 1 of them were clearly close to Rogal dorn, Lorgar, and Magnus.
as far as i know, Lorgar is the only primarch who was always going to be corrupted
Konrad Curze, was always going to be to killed by his brothers or destroyed by the emperor eventually just like the lost legions, same with Magnus..
The world eaters are probably in the same vote as lorgar, curze, magnus...
No, it was the Butcher's Nails that screwed the World Eaters, without that they could have been a functional part of the dynamic. Of course, it is one of the greatest fluff failures ever -the Emperor kidnapping Angron and leaving his buddies to die - in blatant disregard of how he treated pretty much every other primarch. I mean, let the War Hounds deploy themselves to support him... not that f'ing hard. Get a recruiting world out of it at least.
Well, given the events in Outcast Dead, I can only think that the Emperor knew how the whole Heresy would play out and how it would happen, and he just steered events into the best-case scenario. Like he said, sometimes the only way to win is not to lose.
Omegus wrote:Well, given the events in Outcast Dead, I can only think that the Emperor knew how the whole Heresy would play out and how it would happen, and he just steered events into the best-case scenario. Like he said, sometimes the only way to win is not to lose.
And even if we assume what the Cabal told the twins was true, the Emperor would most probably prefer to take a gamble on His eventual (or not) rebirth as opposed to letting Horus and win - ensuring Mankind's destruction.
My ONLY gripe about the magnus and his battle with Russ, was Magnus pulling (or trying to pull) what appeared to be an Obi-wan Kenobi... kinda hammy. Other than that, I think magnus got his just deserts, as sad a it was. After all, he had been warned. Warned perhaps more than once as well if we consider the possible rumours about the missing two Legions.
Feelings for the 1k sons and their plight aside, Magnus really did think he knew best and put the Empire in jeopardy (as did his traitor brothers). The Emperor gave him a chance to 'save himself' from the influence of the warp and failed as he believed he could overcome the powers of Chaos. Such is the hubris of god-like men...
Russ, being Russ simply followed his genetic 'design' and relished putting his brother out of his misery. Call him the Emperors lap-dog if you will, but how should a father of gods respond when the future of humanity is at stake?
He even gave Horus a chance to fight off the power of Chaos as well, at the cost of his own mortal existence. What else should the Emperor have done? How many chances do you give someone when the stakes are so high?
Since the game is stagnant, we have this strange view that the Empire will exist forever. The ugly truth is, however, because of the traitors and their exploits, humanity is a dying species and will soon, by the standards of the universe, find itself quickly blotted out of existence.
What do you mean tried to pull an Obi-wan Kenobi? If anything, Russ is the one that did that, considering he was getting his face introduced to his ass for most of the fight, when in a masterful display of blind flailing, he managed to hit Magnus in his only vulnerable spot.
As for the Emperor giving him a chance to "save himself", that's clearly a bunch of nonsense. We're given every indication that the Emperor was caving to outside pressure when he made his decree. His grip on the Empire was far more tenuous than people imagine, considering there were still rebellious factions on Terra at the height of his power. It's the allegory of the cave, except in this case it's the Emperor showing the cave-dweller the wonderous world outside, and then ordering him back to the cave. And we, from our omniscient point of view, know that the Emperor's decision was extremely foolish, since it disarmed the Imperium of its most potent weapon.
So again, it goes back to the theory that either the Emperor was the most incompetent and stupid god-like being of all time, or everything was "just as planned". In which case, do you blame Judas for his betrayal, when that betrayal was according to God's plan? Who is the one really betrayed here?
Please note that the primarchs all had free will. The Emperor demanded that they show blind obedience to him. Some did, others didn't. If we know anything about 40k, we can say that the difference between being a loyalist and a traitor in 40k isn't the difference between being good and evil. The traitors had their reasons, yes. And the Emperor may well have understood that even as he made his plans. I tend to think he wasn't going to get in the way of their betraying him because that is what he was hoping for. I also think some of the Primarchs surprised him -- e.g., the Lion and Fulgrim. Still, the major players danced according to his tune so all's well that ends well.
Brother Thomas wrote:GW Displayed the Emperor wrong IMO. Hes just as bad as chaos
err no. They caused the destruction of much of the gaxaly. The Gaxaly would be a hell of alot better with out chaos.
If there were no chaos gods, the imperium would be still in a golden age and the imperium would be defending against the tyranids and slaughtering them.
I think that's what's fascinating about the Emperor and about 40k more generally. On the one hand, you think: you know, he was right and we shouldn't question him. But on the other hand you think: he's just a tyrant and he has no right except the power he wields to do this.
As for me, I am pretty sympathetic with both the loyalists and the traitors for this reason -- especially Magnus. But even I can recognize that Magnus betrayed the Emperor out of pride rather than out of love.
Not really. One offers a life of slavery where you are ground up by the Imperial machine, and being slightly useful before you die is about the best you can hope for.
The other is horrifying in appearance, and may well only offer you a gruesome death, but there is a chance, however slight, at a true apotheosis.
I know which I would pick as a "common" Imperial citizen (things obviously change if you're among the privileged elite that can live for centuries indulging in every whim).
Life as Imperial citizen is not necessarily all that bad. Yes, there's the crushing weight of authoritarianism. But people in the fluff often have wives and children they can take solace in. The Chaos Gods would have you murder your wife and rape your kids. Not my cup of tea.
No they wouldn't. They would want you to indulge in your darkest impulses, your id, whatever you want to call it. If for you that's murdering your wife and raping your kids, is that really the fault of Chaos?
It also depends on the deity. Tzeench, for example, wouldn't have anything to gain from you doing that. He would want you to get involved in a populist movement and become a demagogue. Ya know, like the tea party and Sarah Palin.
Omegus wrote:They would want you to indulge in your darkest impulses
Nah, I don't think it works that way. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. And Slaanesh, well, different fluid but we have no reason to believe the logic is necessarily different.
Well, then, you just proved my point for me. Khorne would want you to just kill stuff, he wouldn't single out your wife and kids (although eventually they would get annoying and you'd want to add them to the tally). Slaanesh is all about your darkest impulses.
Well, I know this can be a hot button topic on these forums considering all the angst out there...
Magnus was CLEARLY given a choice and he chose poorly. The Emperors first position was to sanction the psykers including Magnus when the Emperor realized the threat Magnus presented. He CLEARLY didn't want to lose his son and expressed that point of view with sadness as Magnus bore his way through the gate at the Golden Throne. He gave Lorgar a chance as well meeting with him face to face as his Legion was clearly violating the Emperors edict about godhood and such, but he refused to accept the admonishment. We realize now what such things mean in hindsight and how dangerous those positions were. Horus too given another chance to come back to the fold at the expense of the Emperors mortal existence! LOL! What more could he have done for him!?
It was more than love for their father that drove these men to do the things they did in the name of the Emperor... it was hubris pure and simple and they fell to Chaos because of it. They believed their own hype, but you can't label yourself a god. You must label your father one and become one by default.
From a HUMAN perspective all things considered, the nature of the uber-violent 40k universe and all that, the Emperor created his sons with ONE goal in mind... to save HUMAN KIND. What more noble purpose could a human have!? The Primarchs have very little purpose beyond that. Now sure, it's a cold and calculated plan. Some of the Primarchs understood the nature of their existence and some didn't want to. This hubris cost the Emperor any chance at saving the human race.
I'll say it again, despite the fact the game is stagnant, humanity is now, for all intents and purposes, a doomed race because of the traitor Primarchs. Many fans forget this. (well, until GW or the BL let off a fluff bomb)
I understand all too well the allure of the traitor Primarchs. We want to sympathize with them, some of us feel them wronged in some way. Some gravitate toward them because we simply can't stand the smug look on the loyalist Primarchs faces especially if they're clad in Ultramarine colored armor. The truth is, however, that while ALL the Primarchs were flawed (as all heroic characters are) it is the traitors who have caused the the Imperium of man to fall to pieces.
Why some fans insist on piling on the Emperor is beyond me at this juncture in the fluff. Some fans argue that the Emperor is evil because thousands of souls are sacrificed to the Astronomicon daily. Many use this example to label him an evil Megalomaniac. But it isn't the Emperor who does this, it's the Lords of Terra who allow this. To suppliment the loss of the Emperors will with the thousands, millions of psychic beings to power the Astronomicon so that mankind can find its way through the warp. The Emperor was working toward trying to use the webway or something similar to avoid this fate until Magnus destroyed the Emperors work.
This act, removing himself from the primarchs and setting his mind toward the creation of this webway to save mankind from the predations of the warp, which caused resentment amongst his sons. He couldn't tell them what he was doing because, I believe, he already knew many of his sons had been compromised. He didn't dare let the forces of Chaos know what he was doing until he could remove mankind from their clutches.
The Emperor at this point in the fluff and in my mind is not the villain here when you look at the big picture.
Given his policies and what insights we're given into his character in short stories and novels (Last Church, Outcast Dead, etc.), he is very hard to sympathize with. He handled the Primarchs extremely poorly. You would think for someone who has lived among humanity for thousands of years, he would have better people skills. All of the Primarchs were products of their environment, pure and simple. They were blank slates, and adapted to the situation they were thrust into.
Ferrus Manus once noted that the Emperor had his favourites (Horus, Sanguinius etc.) and the rest were simply to row in behind them, not a position I'd be happy with were I a demi-god....or even a basic human
If I consider the word Primarch I think of Prime & Archetypes. He used a combo of high tech & psionics to create ......... wait for it ........ Gods. From this God stock pile of genetics he created the Adeptus Astartes. From the the moment the Primarchs got scattered across the Milky Way the Emporer lost control much like the way fathers & mothers eventually lose control over thier kids. Now 10000 years later the Space Marines are akin to angels & demigods. The fact that the Emporer made mistakes is in accordance with most mythology. Take Odin and Loki for example or the the greek gods.
I just find it entertaining how great and powerful the emperor was, how he had so many plans to save humanity. And he failed, and now everyone is going to die to xenos and daemons in the near future. I'm gonna give GW one more codex to advance the story line before i move on to something more satisfying (for me). I guess 40k just isnt for me
Yeah, the Emperor is awesome if you're a human with no problems with blind obedience.
The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. What the Imperium represents now is completely different and that's a result of the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne.
The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods. He knew there were many lost planets with humans under the influence of Chaos and they had to be put to the torch so that the new age could begin. This is why the Emperor always forbade his own followers from worshipping the Emperor as a god. The Cult of the Emperor was completely underground and illegal at this time, and the Emperor took harsh action against the religious Word Bearers who worshipped him.
The problem with this in the 40K universe was that the gods (this term is vague but it's used to describe monstrously large masses of conciousness in the other dimension called the warp such as the Chaos gods) naturally wanted to stop the Emperor from achieving his goal so they plotted against him at every turn. The Chaos Gods were afraid of the Emperor. Another problematic issue was that the Emperor decided to not explain the real truth even to his own sons, the Primarches, and after some unfortunate series of events this came to bite him. The Legions didn't know Daemons even existed and what kind of danger they were, because the Emperor hadn't told them, and when they came in contact with these perils the Legions and the Primarches fell to the corruptions. They were unable to resist since they didn't know what to look out for. It's a deliberate risk naturally, because if he had instead told too many people that would've been self-defeating. The idea was to make people forget the gods exist at all.
The Emperor took a gamble. He was the most powerful psyker in the universe, but still just a man (of sorts), and he went on a mission to save humanity by destroying or diminishing to insignificance the gods that preyed on it. Because of the machinations of Tzeentch and a thousand other consequences his plans didn't work out and everything went from bad to worse. Now instead of the Imperium being a secular society that believes in the material universe and the rule of law it's a dominion ruled by religious madmen. The Emperor is worshipped as a god everywhere when in fact the Emperor himself would never have allowed it. Likewise, cults worshiping the dark powers are found everywhere and the Chaos Gods are thriving.
Now all that remains is for the last defenders of the humanity to fall and the galaxy becomes a feeding ground for the creatures of the warp. It's just a matter of time. There are many theories and prophecies what will happen afterwards, but it seems like the destruction will burn bright for a while and then all life as we know it in the 41st millennium will go out for a few million years. I doubt this is what the traitor legions were promised since most of them will end up with their souls devoured just like everyone else.
Now, if you ask me what my problem with the 'present day' 40K fluff is, it's the following: There are many factions who hatefully want to destroy everything foreign to them. The Chaos Legions want to destroy and enslave the entire human race in addition to every xenos race, but that's not all. The Necrons (well, most of them) want to destroy everything too. There are others, like Orks, who want to destroy everything and if they're ever done then they destroy themselves. Why would Imotekh the Stormlord want to destroy all organic life from the universe? What would the Necrons do afterwards? They don't feel love or attachment, they can't have kids, they don't go to the beach during holidays... you get the picture. Basically there's too much "I will try to kill everyone and everything and then I'll just kill myself because I have no further plans for life" going on. I would like the background stories to be a little less childishly grandiose. The Necrons for example should only try to re-establish a fraction of their old Empire, protect its borders so they won't come to harm, and then focus on whatever they were doing before the War in Heaven, for example exploring the secrets of creation and the universe, and making more scientific advancements so that their minds stop degenerating. They should also try to get back to organic bodies, or ascend to pure energy, or see if they can reproduce somehow. If I was an immortal being that defeated the star gods themselves and had survived for millions of years, the last thing I would be interested in is going out to exterminate some maggots all over the Milky Way for the next couple thousand years. Many factions simply have no endgame, no motivations for existence, other than "Me angry. Me kill!". It's sad that many GW writers try to convince us that some of the greatest minds in the entire universe, some of which have existed for aeons, both human and alien, have nothing better to occupy their time except the killing of as many other creatures as possible.
Finally, I think it's a major flaw that everything happens in the Milky Way. Only the Tyranids came from somewhere else. The estimation in the real world is that there are billions of galaxies in the universe, and some of them are reasonably close to the Milky Way, in space terms. If the Milky Way is such a bad place filled with nothing but war and death and destruction, why don't some of the advanced races just bolt? I refuse to believe the Necrons' quantum phase technology allows them to travel thousands of light years within the Milky Way at phenomenal speeds but doesn't allow them to travel to other galaxies. The Canis Major Dwarf galaxy is only 25000 light years from Terra.
Manchu wrote:Yeah, the Emperor is awesome if you're a human with no problems with blind obedience.
You could have a problem with it if you wanted. It'd make no difference. Simply being in the Emperor's presence once induces a lifelong worship-boner in normal humans that makes them want to follow his commands. He had absolutely no natural charisma or people-skills, just a psychic presence so overpowering that he didn't need any. Which IMO is why so many Primarchs to whatever extent fell, he couldn't handle dealing with men who could stand on nearly even ground with him.
Also, I am well-aware that the actions of the traitor Primarchs helped cause the beginning of the downfall of humanity. In terms of the 40k universe, looking at it from the outside, I find that fact very hard to care about.
Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
Your forgetting that Magnus and the Sons weren't meant to be destroyed. Magnus' punishment was supposed to be to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor oversaw the Terran defense and repaired the damage to the Webway. And the Thousand Sons would have gotten a pardon anyway - by the time of the Siege of Terra, the Edicts had been amended, considering that the Emperor personally directed Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians during the penultimate assault on the Imperial Palace. Check Index Astartes III, pp. 40-47.
Its states in either fulgrims book or lorgars that horus convinced the wolf of russ to destroy the sons instead of bringing magnus back.
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Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Ferrus Manus once noted that the Emperor had his favourites (Horus, Sanguinius etc.) and the rest were simply to row in behind them, not a position I'd be happy with were I a demi-god....or even a basic human
Fulgrim was on that list his legion was able to have the aquila on their armour, which is the Emprahs personal symbol. So was magnus, the emprah loved horus since he was the 1st son and sanguinius was loved by almost everyone besides angron the red angel as he was called in the fluff
Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.
First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.
The argument about good and evil and the connection between humanity and the Chaos gods is irrelevant imho.
The Emperor's goal was saving the human race from the predations of the Chaos gods and to a lesser extent xenos species.
In addition, it isn't all to clear to me to what extent the latters elimination were a core policy to the Emperors plan. What mankind did in his name may be a different, however.
The idea of 40k is that the Universe and all the things in it are to some degree at odds with Humanity.
Sympathizing with the plight of some of the other major factions in the face of Human arrogance isn't as clear cut either.
It isn't a case of "Can't we all just get along", but rather who deserves to be in charge. No other major faction wants to live in peace with the IoM and it is only the Tau, who would consider living with mankind on something like equal terms.
When faced with this, it is no wonder why the IoM is as xenophobic as they are.
Apparently GW thinks so as well considering that the Tau are "buddies" with the Astartes now... muahahahaha... *sigh*, sorry.
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Omegus wrote:Given his policies and what insights we're given into his character in short stories and novels (Last Church, Outcast Dead, etc.), he is very hard to sympathize with. He handled the Primarchs extremely poorly. You would think for someone who has lived among humanity for thousands of years, he would have better people skills. All of the Primarchs were products of their environment, pure and simple. They were blank slates, and adapted to the situation they were thrust into.
Well, it isn't as pure and simple as that.
The Primarchs are "designed" beings. They are not simply clones of the Emperors genetics, but rather super-complex genetic designs. While they had free will, it is made relatively clear that the Primarchs represent aspects of the Emperors character meshed with, in some cases, animal characteristics. One only needs to look at the Space Wolves and the experiments of Corax to see what I mean. When one considers these templates it is clear that they were not blank slates at all. At least not in the way we, as normals, might think of it.
All of this genetic information was honed to a degree within the genetic design to bring forth a supreme being capable of conquering the galaxy. It is intimated as well that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos gods for the knowledge to do this. While it would be unwise to trust a demon to tell the truth about this, it must be remembered that twisting the truth to reach desired ends is the provenance of demonkind. So there might be a nugget in there that rings true.
Uhlan wrote:In addition, it isn't all to clear to me to what extent the latters elimination were a core policy to the Emperors plan. What mankind did in his name may be a different, however.
Considering how rampantly xenophobic the Imperium acted even when the Emperor was walking around, I doubt he was much better.
Manchu wrote:First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.
The setting that you're talking about is the present day situation. Basically only very narrow minded and short sighted humanists could see the Emperor's vision for the ultimate goal of humanity as anything but pure and good. The alternative is its utter enslavement and destruction. Billions upon billions of lives hung in the balance and whether they liked it or not the Emperor was fighting for all of them. If you consider the Emperor's crusade to unite the human race and drive back Chaos to just be a shade of grey you're simply mistaken and not paying attention to what's at stake.
Expunging religion from the galaxy wasn't absurd at all. I wouldn't want to get into a real world debate here but religion is absurd and illogical in itself and basically grounded on the beliefs of the ignorant and the uneducated. You bring enough knowledge, education and welfare into a culture and their medieval beliefs quickly become the children's stories that they are. Even in the 40K pre-heresy setting most humans considered words like 'god' and 'daemons' nothing but fiction untill they were proven wrong, because in the fictional universe of 40K there are creatures in the other dimension which lesser beings like humans call gods. Secondly, I'd like to refer to a short story called 'Hive Fleet Horror' in one of the older Black Library collections which very specifically talks about the Chaos Gods. It mentions that there might be an infinite amount of Hive Fleets in the universe spread in billions of galaxies and if they destroyed all sentient beings with psychic ties to the warp even the Chaos Gods would die or wither into unconsciousness. I agree with the writer's interpretation.
You're allowed to your opinions but as far as the Emperor constructing some church for himself is concerned you're simply wrong. The background is very clear on this. The Emperor was against religion of all kinds including the worship of himself as anything else than the ruler of the Imperium of Man. After the battle with Horus his servants essentially went against their master's word and started openly worshiping him as a god. I explained this tragedy in my previous post.
Brother Thomas wrote:I just find it entertaining how great and powerful the emperor was, how he had so many plans to save humanity. And he failed, and now everyone is going to die to xenos and daemons in the near future. I'm gonna give GW one more codex to advance the story line before i move on to something more satisfying (for me). I guess 40k just isnt for me
You'll be moving on. The main storyline/plot/whatever you want to call it has not significantly moved forward, backwards or sidewards in 25 years. Sure, more Xenos have entered the game as new armies, some armies have vanished, whatever, but that has not significantly changed anything about the narrative at all.
Therion wrote:If you consider the Emperor's crusade to unite the human race and drive back Chaos to just be a shade of grey you're simply mistaken and not paying attention to what's at stake.
Actually, if you consider the 40k universe in anything but very dark shades of grey, then you're simply mistaken and are not paying attention.
I wouldn't want to get into a real world debate here but religion is absurd and illogical in itself and basically grounded on the beliefs of the ignorant and the uneducated.
I don't want to get into a debate, but that's an incredibly insulting and frankly idiotic observation. Back on-topic, if you want to get rid of religion, why create whole systems that are based on mythic/religious significance. The symbols and traditions of the SM who actually fought in the Crusade speak to something besides a purely rational approach. The idea that one guy should rule the whole of the galaxy just because he's the most powerful of his race is pretty irrational, too. The idea that one race should be ascendant over all others doesn't spring from any rational, atheistic calculation, either. All of this is so irrational in fact that you would need some kind of religion to hold it all together. But in order for it to be "all together" -- that is, unified -- everyone needs the same religion. And in fact that religion itself needs to be primarily about coercive control from the very top of society to the very bottom instead of about prayers and spirits, etc. Maybe the word "religion" is the hang up, since you are clearly thinking of things like this rather than this. For the Emperor's purpose, the difference between "God" and "Führer" is negligible.
Or to put it in your own words:
The Emperor was against religion of all kinds including the worship of himself as anything else than the ruler of the Imperium of Man.
So worshiping him as the ruler of the Imperium would be okay. Yeah, we can agree if you actually meant what you said.
Manchu wrote:Actually, if you consider the 40k universe in anything but very dark shades of grey, then you're simply mistaken and are not paying attention.
I've been paying close, close attention to the 40K universe for 21 years, thank you very much. You however seem to have read the back cover of a magazine. If I may be so bold, you haven't really understood the 40K universe, despite dabbling in it. Not everything is so mysterious as you claim it to be. Try to look at the big picture for once.
but that's an incredibly insulting and frankly idiotic observation.
You forgot to add 'in my opinion', because it really is nothing but.
Back on-topic, if you want to get rid of religion, why create whole systems that are based on mythic/religious significance. The symbols and traditions of the SM who actually fought in the Crusade speak to something besides a purely rational approach.
Don't make stuff up. Use examples. Which pre-heresy chapters used religious symbols and traditions? Much more specifically, which of those traditions were approved by the Emperor? Afterall we're talking about the Emperor and his vision here. I probably don't need to remind you that quite a few of his sons didn't agree with their father in all things?
The idea that one guy should rule the whole of the galaxy just because he's the most powerful of his race is pretty irrational, too.
How would you know that the Emperor's plan was to rule the galaxy for all time? He was a unifier and in times like those a strong leader with the foresight and ability as the Emperor was the perfect individual to see it all done. Based on what we're told the Emperor might have existed for all time, yet he started leading the human race only very late. We can speculate that after his mission would've completed he would've given rule to a senate of High Lords etc. The war was never meant to last forever. Even Primarches like Roboute Guilliman were already planning lives in government and administration for both himself and his Space Marines. Other more barbarian Primarches understood that they were forging a golden era of peace for humankind which would have no further need for such single minded killers.
The idea that one race should be ascendant over all others doesn't spring from any rational, atheistic calculation, either. All of this is so irrational in fact that you would need some kind of religion to hold it all together.
Now I simply lost you. What does humanity's dominion of a single galaxy have to do with irrational beliefs such as religion? There were elder species in the Milky Way and they had all failed in the fight against Chaos or fallen to their inner warlike tendencies and destroyed eachother. It was humanity's time to give it a shot.
But in order for it to be "all together" -- that is, unified -- everyone needs the same religion
If by religion you mean for example believing in the material universe, the rule of law and morality then yes a society needs everyone to believe that being organised at peace is worth it. Populations don't need to believe in voodoo and tree spirits to be able to function. The prayers you keep talking about sound like you're talking things such as the Adeptus Mechanicum. The Emperor went hard against them too and essentially told them that there is no Machine God. He needed the alliance between Terra and Mars during his crusade so he had to be a little sensitive though.
So worshiping him as the ruler of the Imperium would be okay. Yeah, we can agree if you actually meant what you said.
Worship is a word associated with religion, but I might as well used the words respect and obey. Most people respect their nation's leader and they are required by law to take certain orders from those elected into power. If your leader is in fact thousands of years old, the most powerful psychic to ever exist and the leader of a million human worlds, using the word worship instead of 'respect and obey' might be acceptable. Yet it has nothing to do with superstition and religion.
Therion wrote:Don't make stuff up. Use examples. Which pre-heresy chapters used religious symbols and traditions? Much more specifically, which of those traditions were approved by the Emperor?
SW. Please go read Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.
Now I simply lost you.
There is nothing rational about the Great Crusade. It's very name gives away the real character of the enterprise.
The Emperor went hard against them too and essentially told them that there is no Machine God.
Nope. Please read Mechanicus. "Somehow," some Martians got the idea that the Emperor was the Omnissiah ...
If your leader is in fact thousands of years old, the most powerful psychic to ever exist and the leader of a million human worlds, using the word worship instead of 'respect and obey' might be acceptable.
Yep, you are exactly right. You want to call it something besides religion, fine. But totalitizing all authority into a singular being is about as rational as carrying around a four-leaf clover or dancing around a fire for rain.
I've read those books. Whatever you wanted to say simply isn't there. The Thousand Sons were strictly atheist and were open mindedly exploring the secrets of the universe. They never even considered the creatures of the warp daemons, a word which has a religious tone, but simply predators that are dangerous to intruders in their own habitat. The Space Wolves on the other hand were naturalist and feral tribesmen with little knack for philosophy, and believed mostly in their own quest's righteousness. They weren't asked to do anything else but fight so that's what they did. I don't want to start discussing Magnus' mistake in underestimating his father's vision and knowledge while also underestimating the dangers preying on him in the warp.
There is nothing rational about the Great Crusade. It's very name gives away the real character of the enterprise.
Nothing rational? What does a name have to do with rationality? You're making more stuff up. Explain the irrationality of unifying your own species and vanquishing the enemies that plan to destroy you?
Nope. Please read Mechanicus. Somehow, some Martians got the idea that the Emperor was the Omnissiah
I've read it. Like I said, he was sensitive. You have a planet of inbred religious nutcases that have believed in something in isolation for thousands of years, and you need them to work for you. Mars was crucial for the mission. A being such as impressive as the Emperor has an effect like that on humans. His power, vision and intelligence was simply so incredible that emperors and warlords alike fell to their knees in adolation. Yet whenever someone claimed him a god, he told them he isn't one. Tragically right after he was gone those people started talking about him being a god again.
But totalitizing all authority into a singular being is about as rational as carrying around a four-leaf clover or dancing around a fire for rain.
This is just false. First of all the Emperor wasn't making decisions on his own. He had plenty of advisors and councilmen and trusted friends such as the Sigillite. He had supreme authority, but many a modern society has been ruled succesfully for a time like this. Most western countries have laws that have provisions for crisis situations so that power can be centralised and decisions made more quickly. When the human race decided it was going to conquer back a million worlds and save the people scattered all around the galaxy, I don't think a democratic commission that takes a decade for every decision would've quite cut it.
Billions wait upon every nuance of his words. His mind stretches across the material galaxy and beyond. He claims absolute authority over every being that exists, whether to rule them or to destroy them.
A god is a thing that people believe in despite a lack of evidence. Inasmuch as every facet of the day-to-day lives of all people serves as evidence of his existence, the Emperor is therefore not a god. And yet in terms of his power, what other word do we have to describe him?
The thing about the Emperor is that there are only two ways to talk about him: either he is a god in the only real sense of thatword and his claims are legitimate or he is not and his claims are absurd. If you go with the former, then it is impossible to see his rule over the galaxy as anything but what the Ecclesiarchy would eventually come to claim. And if you go with the latter, then it does not even matter because he is no more significant than any other extremely powerful warlord -- like Horus, for example ... which is the cause of the Horus Heresy. One warlord simply decided to fight another one.
Meanwhile, his servants also use supernatural powers. Some of them, like the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves understand this in the language of wizardry or shamanism. Hardly a "scientific" outlook.
In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist. Belief in anything else is superstition in the real sense of that word -- a belief contrary to fact. This is the issue that the Emperor's armies bring to every world: accept the Emperor willingly or we will stamp out your "non-compliant" beliefs with violence like unto the wrath of a god.
Manchu wrote:
In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist. Belief in anything else is superstition in the real sense of that word -- a belief contrary to fact. This is the issue that the Emperor's armies bring to every world: accept the Emperor willingly or we will stamp out your "non-compliant" beliefs with violence like unto the wrath of a god.
They're not gods or daemons. Not really. Not in the classical sense. They're xenos - immaterial ones to be sure, coming from a parallel universe, created and sustained by the emotions, dreams, nightmares, desires, and beliefs of 'mortal' beings, but their neither divine nor demonic. They're just another form of life, albeit completely unlike anything in our universe. The Emperor is not a god, He's just a psyker - the mightiest to ever exist.
If it was somehow a mystery to you that I was making opinions then now that has been revealed to you. I didn't claim Manchu's to be idiotic though like he claimed mine.
In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist.
I don't really know if that's even true. God implies supernatural and you see supernatural or spiritual in things I don't, even in in fiction. Warp travel, astropathic communication and other uses of various psychic abilities don't have anything to do with shamanism, spirituality or the belief in gods. The so called Chaos Gods are landmasses of conciousness in the warp, some of which have set and known birth dates, and some of which have died. They're sentiences, even creatures, not just in the form that they usually exist. They can be destroyed or diminished to insignificance by unconventional means. This is exactly why C'tan are also often referred as gods, and why you keep refering to Emperor as a god despite him just being the most gifted psyker ever to have lived. The lesser minds of inferior creatures label divinity to things they don't understand. The fact that you claim that his vision for uniting the species is irrational and his claims to the throne illegitimate simply because he isn't a god is preposterous to say the least. Those things aren't even related.
Therion wrote: I don't really know if that's even true. God implies supernatural and you see supernatural or spiritual in things I don't, even in in fiction. The so called Chaos Gods are landmasses of conciousness in the warp, some of which have set and known birth dates, and some of which have died. They're sentiences, even creatures, not just in the form that they usually exist. They can be destroyed or diminished to insignificance by unconventional means. This is exactly why C'tan are also often referred as gods, and why you keep refering to Emperor as a god despite him just being the most gifted psyker ever to have lived. The fact that you claim that his vision for uniting the species is impossible and his claims to the throne illegitimate simply because he isn't a god is ludicrous to say the least. Those things aren't even related.
Ultimately though, the Imperial Truth is correct. There are NO GODS. The so-called gods and daemons are just like what I said in my previous post - energy-based xenos from a parellel universe. And I have to agree, the Emperor claiming the Throne and not being a god has no connection. Do you need a claim of divinity to become an absolute ruler? Of course not. It's called Manifest Destiny - the 'crusade' of the Great Crusade could just mean the looser meaning, a campaign or drive for a specific cause, in this case unification and conquest. The Imperial Truth could have destroyed Chaos - the reaction of the Chaos Powers to it is the biggest evidence of all.
Ultimately though, the Imperial Truth is correct. There are NO GODS. The so-called gods and daemons are just like what I said in my previous post - energy-based xenos from a parellel universe. And I have to agree, the Emperor claiming the Throne and not being a god has no connection. Do you need a claim of divinity to become an absolute ruler? Of course not. It's called Manifest Destiny - the 'crusade' of the Great Crusade could just mean the looser meaning, a campaign or drive for a specific cause, in this case unification and conquest. The Imperial Truth could have destroyed Chaos - the reaction of the Chaos Powers to it is the biggest evidence of all.
I agree one hundred percent, like I've explained in my posts on the previous page. This is how I always understood it all and many of the GW writers seem to agree with this interpretation. What I really love about the background is the fact how it shows the quickness of men and xenos species alike in starting open worship of creatures more powerful than them as gods. It also shows the desire to find gods when none can be found just so that there would be something to worship and devote your lives to. In the infinite vastness of space many a lesser creature tries to cling on to hope of salvation by a supernatural and divine being if they just serve faithfully. Races and individuals who are bigger than that and can see the big picture and understand the science behind it know that there is only power and those able to wield it.
The Imperial Truth probably wouldn't have destroyed the Powers of Chaos; its a fact that while worship makes them stronger, they could still feed on the emotions of sentient beings; however, if people believe that gods and daemons don't exist (as happened under the Imperial Truth) in the long run this would have destroyed/weakened them, effectively emasculating Chaos and rendering it a paper tiger. The Warp is affected by people's thoughts and emotions - if people thought/believed gods and daemons didn't exist, then they would lose a huge part of their power. They'll still be there, but the Powers and daemons would be reduced to their original forms - mere vortexes of primal emotions/embodiments of dreams and nightmares in the Warp but with little or no direction.
One thing to note is that we're using the word 'god' in the context of the 'big three' Abrehamic religions, Judaism, Chrtianity, and Islam. In that sense there are no gods in 40k. If you consider gods as worshiped by the Greeks and Romans, then the word fits both the Ruinous Powers and the old C'Tan.
And on the subject of the Thousand Sons, disobedience is not the same as disloyalty. It doesn't mean that Magnus did the right thing, but it also doesn't make him a traitor.
That's a very good point, regarding pagan religions. Also, ancient peoples, like the Egyptians, certainly believed they had evidence for the existence of their gods.
But I disagree regarding the difference between disobedience and disloyalty in the case of Magnus. The Emperor spelled it out explicitly at Nikaea that disobedience in this case would be disloyalty.
Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.
First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.
The chaos gods were created by the corruption, emotions, hate and generally all bad things of humanity and some other sentient beings.
That is one theory. Codex: Chaos Daemons itself makes it clear that such a theory is based on a real space rather than a warp space perspective. There is no such thing as time in the Warp. There is therefore no time before which the Chaos Gods existed. It is therefore better to understand Chaos as something affected by rather than engendered by real space phenomena.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Therion wrote:there is only power and those able to wield it.
This is effectively a description of the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy. You just need to change it a little: "There is only the Emperor, for he wields all power." The way you stated it is merely the dogma of the Horus Heresy.
Manchu wrote:That is one theory. Codex: Chaos Daemons itself makes it clear that such a theory is based on a real space rather than a warp space perspective. There is no such thing as time in the Warp. There is therefore no time before which the Chaos Gods existed.
This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
Unless that 5th god doesn't exist now, but thanks to the weirdness of the warp and how it deals with time, once it is born it will have always existed...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
Unless that 5th god doesn't exist now, but thanks to the weirdness of the warp and how it deals with time, once it is born it will have always existed...
An interesting point. Wasn't that the case with Slaanesh? The Eldar Seers have always felt 'her' presence, just as how Humans have always known the Emperor's presence, but the former became 'real' at the moment of the Fall. Logically, it should also be the case that the moment the Emperor becomes a god - well, not really a god, since gods don't exist as per the Imperial Truth - will also be the moment He 'exists' in the Warp.
I feel as if magnus and is sons want to be gone from the warp and be loyal to the emperor again but can't. Magnus is powerful enough to fight the chaos corruption and reclaim his mind. But will it ever happen? Ask gw. Also, are there any sons left that aren't rubric marines with magnus ? Or did ahriman take all of them on his quest for the black library?
if memeory serves ahriman didnt take all of the thousand sons just the ones in his coven. So magnus could likely win his mind back but in the end would he be fogiven or would the sons of russ track him down and kill him.
Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Magnus was loyal but he wasn't presented with many options after the destruction of Prospero, be hunted by the Wolves and other loyalist chapters or be hunted by the Traitor Legions because he is still a threat. He sided with Horus because it was the only thing he could do really. But by going with that choice he automatically becomes a traitor.
Curze, loyal?
Tadashi wrote:[Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
But he did listen to the Emperor, the Warmaster is the Emperors military commander. If he hadn't listened to Horus he wouldn't have been obeying the Emperor.
Russ, which is quite unbelievable really, has no idea that Horus is a whopping big stinky pants traitor at this moment.
Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Magnus was loyal but he wasn't presented with many options after the destruction of Prospero, be hunted by the Wolves and other loyalist chapters or be hunted by the Traitor Legions because he is still a threat. He sided with Horus because it was the only thing he could do really. But by going with that choice he automatically becomes a traitor.
Curze, loyal?
Tadashi wrote:[Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
But he did listen to the Emperor, the Warmaster is the Emperors military commander. If he hadn't listened to Horus he wouldn't have been obeying the Emperor.
Russ, which is quite unbelievable really, has no idea that Horus is a whopping big stinky pants traitor at this moment.
Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude...btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
DatrhMarko wrote:Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude...btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
Magnus failing was his arrogance and his total belief that he was in control agreed, but regardless of his bargain, he was totally loyal to the Emperor until the Wolves sacked Prospero irrespective of whether he was being guided or not, that's not his fault.
Maybe Curze wasn't a traitor from that perspective thinking about it. He never changed the way he did things, maybe he was never loyal from the start.
DatrhMarko wrote:Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude...btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
Magnus failing was his arrogance and his total belief that he was in control agreed, but regardless of his bargain, he was totally loyal to the Emperor until the Wolves sacked Prospero irrespective of whether he was being guided or not, that's not his fault.
Maybe Curze wasn't a traitor from that perspective thinking about it. He never changed the way he did things, maybe he was never loyal from the start.
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Well, to be fair, Magnus INTENDED to die loyal. Or at least, not put up a fight. Of course, Ahriman and the rest of the Sons didn't much like that idea, heh.
But hearing all his sons dying defending their home planet proved too much for Magnus to bear - I can't really blame him much for wanting to save the remainder of his sons from something that wasn't really their fault.
I can still blame him for being an arrogant idiot in the first place, but eh.
DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Was Magnus foolish? yes
Did he disobey orders?yes
Did he let his ego rule him? yes
Did he dabble in things that he shouldn't have? yes
Was he a traitor? meh, probably not
I think traitor implies that he was seeking the destruction of one who he was supposed to serve, but instead he was just "playing" with things that were way beyond his comprehension and then a series of unfortunate events led to him and his legion getting pwn'd.
and i agree that Ahriman is a victim here, from "A thousand Sons", he seemed like a fairly "good" dude, at least by 40k standards.
DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
So from readers perspective they are innocent,but from 40k perspective quilty as hell-but we are living and reading 40k brothers....so Magnus was (oxymoron) LOYAL-TRAITOR even before heresy (for consorting with the devil) ...
DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
Which foreshadows the increasing paranoia and ultimate fall of the Imperium from the light of reason and hope under the Imperial Truth, to the darkness of ignorance and fear under the Imperial Cult.
DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
Which foreshadows the increasing paranoia and ultimate fall of the Imperium from the light of reason and hope under the Imperial Truth, to the darkness of ignorance and fear under the Imperial Cult.
Thats because IT was a lie in the first place even if it was for greater good...but you cannot build imperium on a lie,or you can!?
As for Magnus again,Horus was the only quilty- not RUSS for being RUSS,so if somebody is to blame it's him-but NOOOO M joined Horus and become traitor- how stupid
This was the emperors worst mistake in the HH, the TTs were a very quiet legion, just slightly bending the rules to make learning magic easyer for them. Magnus is my fave primarch because he had the brains to warn them about Horus. but because horus was the emperors faveourite son he didn't want to admit he had turned to chaos. Magnus was loyal but after russ destroyed prospero he fled to the warp with his closest possesions.
I'm wondering if Magnus even today knowes that Horus pushed the red button on burning Prospero? Or is still blinded by his ego...I' mean no matter how he was cornered he still had a choice-die loyal or be a chaos b*tch- of course he made a wrong choice - preserving knowlege and his legion over loyality -those are facts,simple and crude
I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....
DatrhMarko wrote:I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....
I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.
In other words, they were never loyal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:
Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.
Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.
Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.
Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.
Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.
Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.
Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.
Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.
Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.
DatrhMarko wrote:I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....
I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.
In other words, they were never loyal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:
Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.
Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.
Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.
Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.
Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.
Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.
Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.
Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.
Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.
Magnus turned to horus, becasue he had no other avenue left it was either turn to chaos or die. But i am also biased towards Magnus, the Lion was not as loyal as thought seeing that he arrived to the fight and sat in space waiting to see who would win. Curze ordered his own planet to be destroyed then he ordered his legion to fight for horus how is that loyalty.
Understanding that Magnus was disloyal is not the same thing as not liking the character. I love the character. But he was a traitor through-and-through.
I' think 1k sons fans would always be in denial and its pointless to explain them what are facts and what is speculation - look:
Vulkan rushing on gazilion traitors with just a pocket knife yelling FOOOR THE EMPRAAAH = Loyal
Uga-buga-hokus-pokus save me and my legion Tzeentch I'll give you my arse and then join the same men who ordered suprise party= Traitor
DatrhMarko wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:
Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.
Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.
Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.
Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.
Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.
Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.
Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.
Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.
Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.
I see how you came to your flawed conclusions my friend, however I hope the luminators of the Omnissiah will guide your way
You are right that Angron questioned his place in the great machine of the holy crusade, however do we not all wonder our place in the world. His true sin emerged in his squandering of the gifts the Omnissiah provided. His pride in martial prowess was so great he could not see beyond the veil of hatred to the bounty the Omnissiah. It is true the Omnissiah does not scorn war for that is where some of his greatest gifts can manifest, however, if one does not use these gifts for the benefits of his people you have squandered half of his great gifts. For the Omnissiah provided steel for the bolter so that we might strike down enemies of knowledge and then plow the grounds where his enemies lie to provide nutrients so we might continue on in our quest to praise him.
You are correct that a side of Mortarion's sin is fear however his sin's against the Omnissiah began long before his decision to turn his worship to the flesh god . You see Mortarion's obsession with the bodily lead him to scorn the Omnissiah's gifts, lack of supply forced Mortarion to worship his men as individuals instead of simply tools of the Omnissiah. His inability to release his worship of his own marines and thus by extension himself was his sin; Humanism and Hubris all.
Perturabo, perhaps most tragic of the Primarchs, yearned to bask in the bounty of the Omnissiah. The Omnissiah knows that each cog in a clock must serve its purpose or the clock wont tick, to say the Omnissiah found him incompetent is to say the Omnissiah created a piece to his Great Machine that was not necessary. This is as I'm sure you are aware at best ignorance at worse blasphemy. No you see Perturabo's true sin was envy. He saw the turning of the grand machinne of the Omnissiah and loved the great work so much he blinded himself to the integral part he played in the Omnissiah's Great Machine.
Fulgim placed his trust in perfecting the Great Machine but by doing so sinned in the way of Hubris. You see we must all strive toward the holy purpose the Omnissiah has placed before us, however, when one attempts to be the Omnissiah bending and twisting the will of machine spirits to your own end you alienate his most holy purpose. The Omnissiah wishes us to live in harmony with machine not bend them to our will, Fulgrim stepped off the path of the Omnissiah when he tried to become the Omnissiah.
The tragedy of Nighthunter was that he sought to bring the light of the Omnissiah to all worlds in the form of law, and above all else order. Laws like all institutions created by the Omnissiah's people to ensure the continued function of the Great Machine. However, Nighthunters lust for control over all things and obsession with order brought his downfall. The only way he was able to establish this perfect order was through the terror and manipulation of the spirit. Much like the Machine Spirit a human must have some semblance of freedom in order to function properly and thus by torture and fear are we driven from the rightful pursuit of his most holy works.
Alphrus is another tragic story. Much to the shame of his legion Alphrus sinned by way of adamancy. His drive to perfect his legions style of combat would have been glorious if he had driven towards it with temperance. However, the total disregard for the optimal efficiency of the Omnissiah forced Alphrus for the path of all that is good.
Lorgar thrice cursed of the Omnissiah was told of the great plan. Worship of material and conceptual data and the praise of the working order of the universe. Instead of accepting this as the true path he insisted on the worship of the immaterial and warp. The wise Omnissiah scorned him for his false worship in these areas while pointing him down the path of logic and the machine spirit, instead he again consorted with the immaterium to gain influence over the material and the ability to batter the machine spirit into either little less than a slave or worse a vessel for vial warp entities
Magnus's misguided tale of the false pursuit of knowledge is another tale of warning. His use of sorcerery was devastating to the material constructs of the Omnissiah and thus he was sentenced to repent for his sins of misguided worship by way of penance. His internment on the throne would have been the crushing of spirit his vane hubris needed however before he could be brought to repentance his worship of self drove him to run rather than face the scorn of the Omnissiah. As both a curse and blessing the Omnissiah blasted away their flesh when once again the Thousand Sons sought sorcery to avail them of the curse of the immaterium. Now they are little more than Machines themselves housing their souls as machine spirits in retribution for the penance their Primarch never served
Horus most beloved of the Omnissiah for his countless acts of bravery and the endless bounty of wealth he restored to the loyal followers of the Omnissiah was doomed by pride. For you see like all parts of the Great Machine Horus was only a piece of a whole in the Omnissiah's great works. As such, a piece, though given the ability to create themselves, must serve to the ends of its creator. Thus the merest of servitor must follow the path laid out by it's programing also must the Fabricator-General follow the path of the Omnissiah. Horus given the freedom by the Omnissiah to continue the consolidation of his most holy works, for the human like all organisms is a machine, do not forget (though it's flaws may be improved by the bounty of Omnissiah, I digress), sought to turn his most glorious machine against it's master after a realization of mortality. He did not trust in the Omnissiah's plan and thus through fear, huberis, Envy, unyielding adamancy to the need for order and dominance over the immaterium to master this mortality he turned to the path of heresy.
You're worship of the Omnissiah though misplaced should be much easier now that you have been corrected in your slight errings. May you see the Omnissiah's bounty before you and not turn form his most holy of works.
DatrhMarko wrote:I'm wondering if Magnus even today knowes that Horus pushed the red button on burning Prospero? Or is still blinded by his ego...I' mean no matter how he was cornered he still had a choice-die loyal or be a chaos b*tch- of course he made a wrong choice - preserving knowlege and his legion over loyality -those are facts,simple and crude
I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....
The choice to save his sons he had already sacrificed so much for was the wrong choice? Maybe not ideal from the Imperium's point of view, but I wouldn't say it was wrong. And saying that the loyalists would have stayed loyal because they were totally loyal is weak. The only Primarchs on that list that Chaos made any sort of a play for were Sanguinius and Manus, and in both cases they were pretty ham fisted. The attempt to turn Manus was literally Fulgrim stopping by and saying "Dude, Horus is going to rebel against Dad, you want in?"
Manchu wrote:I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.
In other words, they were never loyal.
Wha? So on the one hand you say you love Magnus' character, and on the other you have decided to destroy said character by saying that he (and the other traitor Primarchs) were never truely loyal. At which point you might as well say that they were going to turn regardless of what happened, so the entire character arc and development that occurs in their various storylines is moot. Loyalists good, traitors bad, details unimportant... but I love his character. Plus, your definition of loyalty is more like blind obedience, the loyalty a dog feels for it's master, not the loyalty of one person to another based on words and deeds. I'd almost say it's more like faith. That regardless of the situation they're in, or the knowledge they have, they should always have faith that the Emperor has it all in hand. Horus is revolting? Don't do anything Magnus, trust that the Emperor has it all in hand. Your family of gladiators just got killed, while all you could do is watch from orbit? Turn that frown upsidedown Angron, the Emperor has a plan and you should trust him. If I wanted to be particularly uncharitable, I'd almost say that the Loyalists didn't stay with the Emperor because of their situation or character, they stayed because they lacked the imagination to see themselves doing anything else.
BTW: Mortarion had already turned against the Emperor when his legion ended up being stuck in the warp and the plague got them. HH novels haven't done the best job of explaining why he joined Horus. Something about blah blah, strong ruling the weak, blah blah. Definitely a gap that needs filling in.
The Emperor is not a boss at a job. He's not even like the general of an army. He most certainly isn't just somebody's dad. He is the closest thing that a mortal can get to being a god. Yes, you should be blindly obedient to him. Anything less is a betrayal. Especially when he tells you this himself about a specific issue.
Magnus's character is not "destroyed" simply because he was never truly loyal. And the Loyalist primarchs are not boring or unimaginative just because they were truly loyal.
Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.
First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.
The chaos gods were created by the corruption, emotions, hate and generally all bad things of humanity and some other sentient beings.
All emotions empower Chaos, including...
Happiness
Love
Generosity
So, umm, I guess those are bad things in your book.
But main focus of "thousand sons" (when wolves attack prospero) is knowlege and preservation of the same ...they never thought about loyality and here's a newsflash - Magnus waited ( cooking a spell propably) while his legion is getting castrated...
Here is short description of Tzeench in wikia: No less a personage than the Primarch Magnus the Red found it impossible to steer clear of Tzeentch's temptations as his overwhelming desire to protect his Thousand Sons Legion's precious knowledge of the Warp and sorcery ultimately led him into the embrace of the Changer of Ways.
DatrhMarko wrote:But main focus of "thousand sons" (when wolves attack prospero) is knowlege and preservation of the same ...they never thought about loyality and here's a newsflash - Magnus waited ( cooking a spell propably) while his legion is getting castrated...
Here is short description of Tzeench in wikia: No less a personage than the Primarch Magnus the Red found it impossible to steer clear of Tzeentch's temptations as his overwhelming desire to protect his Thousand Sons Legion's precious knowledge of the Warp and sorcery ultimately led him into the embrace of the Changer of Ways.
And ironically, most of the Imperium's knowledge of the Warp comes from Magnus' research. The current Imperium is a rotting corpse, much like its "Emperor". It was built by giants and heroes whose ideals have been forgotten. It doesn't matter anymore whether Magnus did the right thing or not...the Imperium after the Horus Heresy has given effective victory to the traitors. By killing the Imperium's future and abandoning the ideals of Imperial Truth, everything the traitors did and said has become true.
DatrhMarko wrote:So what Tadashi? Alpha legion is right then !?
In a way, yes. I doubt the Cabal was telling the truth, but it is obvious that the Imperium is doomed. Its fighting a losing battle in a war it cannot win. By abandoning the Imperial Truth, the Imperium's future is dead. A civilization without a future is dead.
"A great civilization cannot be destroyed from without unless it destroys itself from within."
DatrhMarko wrote:So what Tadashi? Alpha legion is right then !?
In a way, yes. I doubt the Cabal was telling the truth, but it is obvious that the Imperium is doomed. Its fighting a losing battle in a war it cannot win. By abandoning the Imperial Truth, the Imperium's future is dead. A civilization without a future is dead.
"A great civilization cannot be destroyed from without unless it destroys itself from within."
until mat ward decides that the tyranids are actually a creation of the emperors that were designed to cleanse the unworthy, and all the traitors have been purged, then the tyranids will all explode and destroy all eldar(the emprah hates the eldar) lol
Wasnt the reason that the TS where destroyed, that Horus mislead russ, and ordered him, by proxy for the emperor, to wipe out the TS? It was never the emps goal to wipe out the TS or kill magnus right?
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Wasnt the reason that the TS where destroyed, that Horus mislead russ, and ordered him, by proxy for the emperor, to wipe out the TS? It was never the emps goal to wipe out the TS or kill magnus right?
That's the gist that you get from False Gods. Deliverance Lost has a throw away line hinting that Russ had made a royal cockup of things. There is never anything saying exactly what the Emperor's orders were.
manchu wrote:I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.
In other words, they were never loyal.
I would like to comment on some of these, but I don't know if you are being entirely serious for each one Manchu?
Some were never possibly loyal, but some clearly had the intention of trying to be. Lorgar, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion despite his grudge ...
manchu wrote:In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:
Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.
Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.
Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.
Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.
Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.
Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.
Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.
Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.
Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.
Very good, I would possibly adjust some of these but yeah, very good.
daveNYC wrote:
Wha? So on the one hand you say you love Magnus' character, and on the other you have decided to destroy said character by saying that he (and the other traitor Primarchs) were never truely loyal. At which point you might as well say that they were going to turn regardless of what happened, so the entire character arc and development that occurs in their various storylines is moot.
In a way, it is, The First Heretic shows us 10 Primarchs landing on worlds and who do 9 of these Primarchs turn out to be? The 9 Traitors plus 1 maybe. It's quite plausible that they were going to turn regardless, Chaos had an interest in the Primarchs from the offset and was quite possibly guiding them to their fates.
I' hate that they are changing and also making 40k fluff stupider,like in the old 40k codex, RUSS pokes Magnus in the eye(knowing that is Red's weaknes) ,which sounds good to me (Old Wolf was a guy who knowes opponent weakneses),but nooooo
heeee struck blindy in rage and pain....so that 1k sons fans can always say that it was lucky shot....
My fear is for Sanguinius- what would they do to him in coming books....
DatrhMarko wrote:I' hate that they are changing and also making 40k fluff stupider,like in the old 40k codex, RUSS pokes Magnus in the eye(knowing that is Red's weaknes) ,which sounds good to me (Old Wolf was a guy who knowes opponent weakneses),but nooooo
heeee struck blindy in rage and pain....so that 1k sons fans can always say that it was lucky shot....
My fear is for Sanguinius- what would they do to him in coming books....
It's called dramatic effect, don't worry about it. It's not like the eye is some super secret weak spot that only Russ could have figured out. It's soft and squishy, and Magnus only has one of them (and you need it to be able to see).
But main focus of "thousand sons" (when wolves attack prospero) is knowlege and preservation of the same ...they never thought about loyality and here's a newsflash - Magnus waited ( cooking a spell propably) while his legion is getting castrated...
You do realize that for the vast majority of Prospero, the attack by the wolves was an out of the blue act of treachery that had no explanation other than Russ being a nutter, right? Only a few Thousand Sons knew about Magnus' attempt to intervene with Horus, and only Ahriman knew about Magnus' atttempt to warn the Emperor. Pretty much every other Thousand Son had no idea what was going on until the Wolves started nuking the place from orbit. Even during the attack, the only time that a Thousand Son might think that this was something other than Russ being an anti-psyker spanker, would be when a Custodian showed up.
So yeah, when the Wolves started wrecking the place, the Thousand Sons were concerned about the loss of knowledge because as far as they knew there was no question as to their loyalty.
The Burning of Prospero, the disbanding of the Order of Remembrancers, the establishment of the Imperial Inquisition, and the rise of the Ecclesiarchy all symbolize the Imperium turning away from reason to embrace fear.
The Burning of Prospero = instead of trying to understand the Warp and overcome it, you abjure it and run away.
Disbandment of the Order of Remembrancers = running away from the difficulty of facing the truth to accept comfortable lies.
Establishment of the Imperial Inquisition = close-minded paranoia that stifles any hope of real progress.
Rise of the Ecclesiarchy = reason is cast aside in favor of unintelligent belief.
Pilau Rice wrote:Some were never possibly loyal, but some clearly had the intention of trying to be. Lorgar, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion despite his grudge ...
When we think about morality IRL, intention is very important. But that's not the only way of looking at it. Some people look to acts as the basis for morality, which is to say that an act itself is either good or bad. A person who commits a good act, even for bad reasons, has still done good. This act-based approach is actually better suited to 40k than the intention-based approach because intentionality simply isn't that important in the 40k universe. In 40k, what you mean to do is not very important. The ultimate example of this is the naive radical inquisitor -- who in turn is based on Magnus. Chaos does not need your permission to explode your brain into a Warp portal pouring out daemons. Maybe you wanted to use your psychic powers to heal your sick grandma. Too bad -- brain explodes! And you know what, you're a fething dick for using those powers at all no matter what you intended. Because now there's a daemonic incursion and your sick grandma was just eviscerated by a bloodletter not to mention the other millions they'll soon slaughter. This is a very harsh moral standard but hey it's the GrimDark after all.
The traitor Primarchs are interesting because they insist on living in a different moral universe than everyone else. Not only do they do "bad acts" (remember, for our purposes "good" = "obey the Emperor") but they constantly seek to justify them as good on a higher level. The Primarchs want to live in a universe where intention is important. This is an incredibly arrogant desire: basically, they think that what they intend should trump what they actually accomplish or fail to accomplish even though this is clearly not how their reality works. And the results of their own acts again and again confirm this truth. Magnus thinks his betrayal is justified because of an emergency -- a convenient excuse to do exactly what he wanted to in the first place, i.e., use magic no matter what the Emperor said ... and guess what? The Emperor was exactly right. You shouldn't feth around with that stuff because you don't actually understand what you're doing. Lorgar just wanted to worship the Emperor, right? Uh no. Lorgar just wanted to worship something, anything, as long as that thing was powerful. Guess what? Lorgar ends up worshiping daemons. As usual, the Emperor was exactly right.
To do something wrong for right reason is still wrong (when damage is done) from pragmatic point of view- and all people who are grown ups tend to view that as wrong...
I've strayed a little from the thread but imagine telling your boss when you mess things up,how did you had good intentions,you 'll get kick in the butt ...
Pilau Rice wrote:Some were never possibly loyal, but some clearly had the intention of trying to be. Lorgar, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion despite his grudge ...
When we think about morality IRL, intention is very important. But that's not the only way of looking at it. Some people look to acts as the basis for morality, which is to say that an act itself is either good or bad. A person who commits a good act, even for bad reasons, has still done good. This act-based approach is actually better suited to 40k than the intention-based approach because intentionality simply isn't that important in the 40k universe. In 40k, what you mean to do is not very important. The ultimate example of this is the naive radical inquisitor -- who in turn is based on Magnus. Chaos does not need your permission to explode your brain into a Warp portal pouring out daemons. Maybe you wanted to use your psychic powers to heal your sick grandma. Too bad -- brain explodes! And you know what, you're a fething dick for using those powers at all no matter what you intended. Because now there's a daemonic incursion and your sick grandma was just eviscerated by a bloodletter not to mention the other millions they'll soon slaughter. This is a very harsh moral standard but hey it's the GrimDark after all.
The traitor Primarchs are interesting because they insist on living in a different moral universe than everyone else. Not only do they do "bad acts" (remember, for our purposes "good" = "obey the Emperor") but they constantly seek to justify them as good on a higher level. The Primarchs want to live in a universe where intention is important. This is an incredibly arrogant desire: basically, they think that what they intend should trump what they actually accomplish or fail to accomplish even though this is clearly not how their reality works. And the results of their own acts again and again confirm this truth. Magnus thinks his betrayal is justified because of an emergency -- a convenient excuse to do exactly what he wanted to in the first place, i.e., use magic no matter what the Emperor said ... and guess what? The Emperor was exactly right. You shouldn't feth around with that stuff because you don't actually understand what you're doing. Lorgar just wanted to worship the Emperor, right? Uh no. Lorgar just wanted to worship something, anything, as long as that thing was powerful. Guess what? Lorgar ends up worshiping daemons. As usual, the Emperor was exactly right.
So none of the traitor Primarchs did any good in all the years they served and obeyed the Emperor, no worlds were bought to compliance in his name, no enemies were defeated to protect the Emperors People. It was all just bad stuff with their own agendas at heart and they were all bad?
Lorgar wanted the Emperor to take his rightful place as a God and look, he was right too The Emperor might not have had a choice in the matter.
Pilau Rice wrote:So none of the traitor Primarchs did any good in all the years they served and obeyed the Emperor, no worlds were bought to compliance in his name, no enemies were defeated to protect the Emperors People. It was all just bad stuff with their own agendas at heart and they were all bad?
Unfortunately, whatever good they did is immaterial. The sick grandma example should make that clear. You wanted to psychically heal your sick grandma but all you managed to do was get her disemboweled by a daemon. Maybe you had bought her a nice birthday gift the year before. Well, the disembowelment thing kind of trumps it.
Pilau Rice wrote:Lorgar wanted the Emperor to take his rightful place as a God and look, he was right too The Emperor might not have had a choice in the matter.
I think you're missing the point of Lorgar. Lorgar just wanted a god to believe in. If there were no Warp Gods, he'd probably have ended up worshiping the Eldar or something. If he made it to M41 without finding anything to worship, he'd have started worshiping the Hivemind.
Pilau Rice wrote:So none of the traitor Primarchs did any good in all the years they served and obeyed the Emperor, no worlds were bought to compliance in his name, no enemies were defeated to protect the Emperors People. It was all just bad stuff with their own agendas at heart and they were all bad?
Unfortunately, whatever good they did is immaterial. The sick grandma example should make that clear. You wanted to psychically heal your sick grandma but all you managed to do was get her disemboweled by a daemon. Maybe you had bought her a nice birthday gift the year before. Well, the disembowelment thing kind of trumps it.
Pilau Rice wrote:Lorgar wanted the Emperor to take his rightful place as a God and look, he was right too The Emperor might not have had a choice in the matter.
I think you're missing the point of Lorgar. Lorgar just wanted a god to believe in. If there were no Warp Gods, he'd probably have ended up worshiping the Eldar or something. If he made it to M41 without finding anything to worship, he'd have started worshiping the Hivemind.
Or if he would have sucked it up like a good little Primarch, he would have gotten exactly what he wanted. He would probably be running the Ecclesiarchy now.
So what it all boils down to is that the Emperor was a dick that shouldn't have meddled with things that he couldn't control.
It's my own belief that he specifically engineered some of them to fail. Again, not saying he's a great guy by IRL standards. And even if this is true, Magnus is still a traitor.
Manchu wrote:It's my own belief that he specifically engineered some of them to fail. Again, not saying he's a great guy by IRL standards. And even if this is true, Magnus is still a traitor.
Manchu wrote:In any case, you can see why Horus would adopt such a nihilistic view. It does make sense even if its depiction in the novels was not very compelling.
That one line from that book does not sit well with me at all.
It just didn't seem to fit at all with the reasons why the Heresy happened.
Originally Horus rebelled for the betterment of humanity and because the Emperor did not deserve to rule, now it seems it's just because Horus is pissed off and throwing a hissy fit.
There seems to be no other reason that that.
Burning the galaxy is not the act of someone doing mankind a favour
As near as I can tell, the Heresy happened because nine primarchs had extremely deep character flaws. Any notion of the Emperor "not deservingt to rule" or whatever is just ex post facto justification.
Manchu wrote:As near as I can tell, the Heresy happened because nine primarchs had extremely deep character flaws. Any notion of the Emperor "not deservingt to rule" or whatever is just ex post facto justification.
Even then -- who would just totally believe some weird psychotic vision? I think it's clear that Horus just used the vision as an excuse to do what he already wanted -- just like Magnus -- just like Lorgar -- just like all of them in one way or another.
It just didn't seem to fit at all with the reasons why the Heresy happened.
Originally Horus rebelled for the betterment of humanity and because the Emperor did not deserve to rule, now it seems it's just because Horus is pissed off and throwing a hissy fit.
I disagree, I can quite understand Horus' turning traitor (though I can also understand people thinking he's a fool).
This thread has made me look back to my Ranking The Primarch's thead for a better worded view of the Primarchs, from my opinion. It saves me having to type it all out again and frankly, I can never really express things particularly well it seems.
Anyway, my view on why Horus turning traitor wasn't simply a 'hissy fit':
Spoiler:
"In fact, his corruption further shows the human aspect of Horus: he had worries and he had fears, but he also had noble intentions and ambitions. He wanted to live up to his fathers intentions and he wanted to unite humanity, but he struggled (understandably) to cope with the pressures put upon him and this was exploited by Chaos and Erebus.
Melissia said: Personally I find the Traitors to be kinda overall pathetic. Especially Horus. I mean goddamn Horus is the wimpiest pansy that ever pansied-- he starts a civil war because, effectively, he's being a whiny rebellious teenager. The entire Horus Heresy, from his point of view, is a violent hissy fit over the Emperor not giving him enough hugs. It just... makes me want to stab him in the face. Repeatedly. With an axe. Which is made of fire.
And that is where I disagree, for not only can you not make an axe from fire, but also it's difficult to stab with an axe... Oh, also I disagree with Horus being a pansy, I think much of his reasoning for the heresy was understandable.
Horus was under masses of pressure, trying to run the galaxy and please everyone whilst being undermined by the High Lords of Terra. He had also just been attacked by a lost human civilisation whom he had connected and bonded with, whereby he would have had to exterminate an entire human civilisation which spanned across many planets and more. At the same time he had been abandoned by his father for reasons unknown to him - it's not quite not enough hugs, more not enough kisses - and left to try and lead a galactic crusade with his brothers criticising him, his enemies attacking him, his allies betraying him and the high-lords undermining him. If you combine this with a mortal wound and being exposed to the full power of Chaos, I can kind of understand why Horus rebelled. Dorn himself didn't think it was the Horus he knew that was rebelling, but that he had infact been tainted by something.
And that is exactly right. The real Horus - pre heresy - was a noble upstanding kind of chap with good intentions and actions, it's just Chaos went all mind-control on him.
However, I don't completely agree with Horus' reasons for turning traitor. When Chaos spoke to Horus he was - although wounded - largely in control of his own actions and thoughts, he had the opportunity to rebuke the gods of Chaos and save humanity, but instead he believed their lies and damned himself, his legion, his humanity and his fur coat. This is where I disagree with Horus, I don't understand why he would listen to Chaos - their name gives it away! if they were called the 'gods of lovely' or 'gods of warmth, kindness and care-bears to all' then I could understand. Even so, I don't see why he believed them or what was entirely wrong with the Emperor becoming a god?!"
The Visions where the Emperor is venerated as a god and the Primarchs aren't mentioned are pretty f***ing potent IMHO. When you combine these with the above factors and everything he had to face, I find it easy to understand why Horus fell.
-----------
And my opinion on Magnus, and why he doesn't quite deserve all the love people seem to give him:
Spoiler:
7th: Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones, But Russ Will Really Hurt Me.
Yep, finishing in - a still impressive - 7th, it's the peoples favourite. Magnus The Red. The Crimson King. Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The GINGER!!!
Magnus is very much a sympathy story, engaging many people with his ultimately good intentions but fall from grace. An almost Tragic Hero. I know this good intentions and convoluted story is the kind of thing I have been endorsing so far, however there's more to Magnus than just this IMHO.
I'll start off with the good; The Thousand Sons are possibly the best looking Legion there is, the whole Egyptian theme and red/blue and gold colour scheme looks great and suits their mystical imagery. Magnus himself looks suitable as well, coming across as very intimidating and an almost magical being, more so than the usual Primarch at least! The horns, the gold armour, the deep red (GINGER!!!) hair and the whacking great axe all look very cool. This brutal image also suits Magnus in that it can be misinterpreted, as are his actions. It further detaches him from humanity; fitting his character and story.
Also, Magnus has some of the most noble of ideals; trying to prevent the Heresy before it can begin and then trying to forewarn the Emperor. He ultimately would've fought for the loyalists if it were not for Russ/Horus bitch-slapping him, further benefiting his tragic story. Magnus also appeared to be misunderstood in his use of the warp, causing him to not be trusted and feared by the Imperium, whereas Magnus only sought to use it for good. Magnus also appeared to be a very 'caring' kind of guy, trying to preserve the history of conquered nations etc.
As you can see, Magnus was a good guy with good intentions, who comes across as a victim; unfairly persecuted and forced to fight for Horus. However, how much of this story and suffering did Magnus bring upon himself?
This is where I explain why, for me, Magnus only finished seventh and isn't favoured by me quite so much as he is by everyone else. It's clear Magnus is a very good guy (which I like) and has a great story and image, however I believe he's partially to blame for his own downfall due to his own flaws.
Knowledge is power (Space Wolves are also power!) is one of the key tenets of Magnus. However, he didn't know as much as he thought and it's largely this arrogance that has caused Magnus to not rate as highly as he could have. Ferrus Manus is ranked all the way down in 17th because of his arrogance! Magnus believed himself to be omniscient and the master of the warp and whilst some sympathise with him for his downfall, I partially blame him. How could he believe he was the master of something that couldn't actually be seen or properly understood?! Now I'm good at certain subjects (English, History etc.) however, I'm not so good at understanding that which doesn't exist in the same dimension, whereas Magnus thought he was.
It's not some harmless mistake either! Lets say I thought I was amazing at football and tried to do keepy-uppies in my living room, then I lost control of the ball and it broke a vase - my bad, but no big deal. Lets say Magnus was trying to do the same, but his football was the warp. Magnus just doesn't break a vase, he breaks the priceless ming vase that is the Emperors throne room and causes two Legions to fight one-another instead of prevent Horus, thereby causing half the galaxy to burn and a millennia of constant war and suffering. This CAN all be led back to Magnus, so let's be frank: he messed up. Big Time. Knowledge is power. Assuming you know everything is just god-damn stupid.
Also, could Magnus really not have hot-footed it over to Terra to warn the Emperor about Horus?! I mean it's quite a big deal, whilst telling daddy as-soon-as-possible would be good, being able to fully warn and explain it to him is better! It's not like he was racing Horus to Terra. At the time, Horus was in a freakin' coma!! If he went to Terra himself he could have properly warned the Emperor and made him understand the situation, at least getting him to give Horus a ring and check everything is all right! Instead Magnus damns himself, his Legion, the citizens of prospero and half the Imperium. I know, flying over to Terra is easier said than done etc. but when the fate of the galaxy is at stake, wouldn't you want to do it properly!?
And when Russ went all chopity chop, stabidy stab on Magnus and his Legion why did he 1st sit back and watch them die then wade in there and give them all to the gods of Chaos? I know what his though process was (I deserve it etc.) but why would you then turn to the force which you know just turned your brother evil and has constantly manipulated and mutated you and your entire Legion?! The gods of Chaos haven't exactly been your best friends in all this, in fact, they were to blame and you know it!
Finally, what made Magnus think the warp was a play-toy?! He's seen 1st hand it's not a nice place, it's full of predators (not those predators!!), requires mass-sacrifice and he's seen the mutation it can wreak, from his own Legion and colonies he 'liberated'.
I mean, personally I'd trust a nice car more than I would an incredibly flashy car which I had to sacrifice hundreds of people to obtain! Lets see... Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that is reluctant to be controlled? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that requires human sacrifice? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that you don't fully understand? Check. Angry, malicious primeval force from another dimension that your dad - the leader of the human race, the man who you respect more than anyone else and the smartest dude around - has told you not to play with? Check.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the warp doesn't seem like the most practical of tools around does it? I think Russ proved a pointy stick can do the same job but better!
This section has been filled with a lot more negatives than most of the top-tens have (and will), so why is Magnus still seventh?! Because he has such a good and almost tragic story and has so much character in himself. This could have got him 2nd or 3rd or whatnot, but because of his (ironic) arrogance and idiocy, he's down in seventh.
Magnus; full of contradictions and irony: he's so smart yet so stupid.
Manchu wrote:As near as I can tell, the Heresy happened because nine primarchs had extremely deep character flaws. Any notion of the Emperor "not deservingt to rule" or whatever is just ex post facto justification.
All the primarchs had serious character flaws. Heck, it's even money that the reason the missing primarchs were gotten rid of is because they were too normal and nobody could stand being around them.
You're really taking a 40k viewpoint to the 30k setting in regards to the status of the Emperor and how he should be obeyed. Blind, unthinking obedience is not in-line with the tenants of the Imperial Truth, nor does it make sense given what know about him. In the HH era, he is simply The Emperor, it's only a few thousand years later that he gets 'God' as his middle name.
In a related question: If breaking the Emperor's declaration at Nikaea made Magnus a trator, then where does
Manchu wrote:As near as I can tell, the Heresy happened because nine primarchs had extremely deep character flaws. Any notion of the Emperor "not deservingt to rule" or whatever is just ex post facto justification.
All the primarchs had serious character flaws. Heck, it's even money that the reason the missing primarchs were gotten rid of is because they were too normal and nobody could stand being around them.
You're really taking a 40k viewpoint to the 30k setting in regards to the status of the Emperor and how he should be obeyed. Blind, unthinking obedience is not in-line with the tenants of the Imperial Truth, nor does it make sense given what know about him. In the HH era, he is simply The Emperor, it's only a few thousand years later that he gets 'God' as his middle name.
In a related question: If breaking the Emperor's declaration at Nikaea made Magnus a trator, then where does
Spoiler:
The Lion
stand after the story in The Primarchs?
For me maybe(and big maybe) "TRAITOR",because he killed a guy simply for obeying big E 's decree...
But look at him even before that -jealous on Dorn, fearing Guillimans rise of power, not helping Iron Hands right away(don't say he didn't know that they are loyal) and of course power hungry & self centred all the way...
The Lion is loyal, I'm almost certain of it. Ambiguous, but loyal.
He does what's necessary, but particularly if you consider his words to a certain Daemon, he seems utterly loyal to the Big E.
It's Guilliman's motivations you should be worried about.
Just Dave wrote:It's Guilliman's motivations you should be worried about.
Oh, I don't think so. The original subtitle of Codex Astartes was "Plan B."
Exactly. Secondus. He's even more ambiguous but probably loyal IMHO.
He's just planning for failure. Everyone else is running around either trying to take or defend Terra, or at least support other's efforts to do so. Guilliman just took a step back and considered what the worst case scenario would be and what could be done to deal with it should it come to pass. Of course a slightly better use of his efforts might have been to try and send a portion of his Legion (the largest Legion, BTW) to Terra in an attempt to head the whole thing off, but that's just me. Now on the question of loyalty, that is another interesting one. He is acting in support of the Imperium as a concept, but not doing anything to support the Imperium and Emperor as they currently exist.
The story in The Primarchs is actually quite relevant given your absolutist stance on obedience to the Emperor. I can't really recommend the book though, the loyalist primarchs have the personality of cardboard and bionic cardboard. The traitors are slightly more interesting, but not really worth the price of admission.
Now on the question of loyalty, that is another interesting one. He is acting in support of the Imperium as a concept, but not doing anything to support the Imperium and Emperor as they currently exist.
Once upon a time, Space Dad told his Red Space Son to not be a dick and use magic, but Red Space Son decided he was the best. He turned into Dick Red Space Son. He used a spell that made him visit his Space Dad REAAALLY fast, but a bunch of Rapists followed him into Space Dads home! Space Dad was so mad at Dick Red Space Son that he sent him to his room (that had lots of pyramids), and then he made his Ginger Lumber Jack Space Son blow his room up and all his action figures. So DIck Red Space Son decieded he didnt like his Space Dad anymore. He became a Rapist Prince, named, DICK RED SPACE EX-SON, THE RAPIST. He then threw out his best action figure cause he made him mad by changing the rest of his remaining action figures into space mummies (boo!). After that, DICK RED SPACE EX-SON, THE RAPIST started raping all of his Ex-Space Dad's action figures. And reading lots of books!
And that my children, was the tale of DICK RED SPACE EX-SON, THE RAPIST.
In a nutshell, thats what happened. They see me trollin, they hatin.....
Pilau Rice wrote:The Emperor is as much to blame for the way the Primarchs turned out, perhaps he should just have made 20 Guillimans?
So he can have 20 traitors instead of just 9? If second-guessing the Emperor is treason then the Codex Astartes is as much a work of treachery as the Book of Magnus. The really hilarious part is when in Know No Fear Guilliman states that his "father" doesn't make disposable sons.
Manchu wrote:Any notion of the Emperor "not deservingt to rule" or whatever is just ex post facto justification.
The Emperor couldn't hold it together - so yeah, he got what he deserved. If the only justification for his rule is his sheer power then he's fair game, right? If I can manage to kill him then obviously he was unworthy all along. If I lose, it's my hubris. If he loses, it's his. Sounds like perfect justification to me.
Manchu wrote: Also, when were the rembrancers an "Order" and when were they disbanded?
I'm guessing you never read the short story The Last Remembrancer.
Spoiler:
A Sons of Horus vessel enters the Sol System. The Imperial Fists board the vessel and kill everyone onboard, but find a prisoner on the hold - Solomon Voss. Voss is taken to Titan for interrogation, but when Dorn finds out, he intervenes and makes sure Voss does not 'disappear' into an interrogation cell. He goes to Titan, but Malcador has Iacton Qruze accompany Dorn. They meet with Voss, who has been granted pen and paper by the Interrogators to continue what he calls his greatest work. Dorn speaks with Voss, often retreating to speak privately with Qruze, revealing it was Voss who petitioned the Emperor and the Council of Terra to create the Order of Remembrancers - poets, artists, historians - to reflect the light of the Imperial Truth as opposed to the cold and manipulative Iterators, and as the finest wordsmith of the age, billions or more people across the galaxy know of the Great Crusade only because of Voss. To Qruze, Dorn reveals his sorrow regarding the Council of Terra's decision to dissolve the Order, saying that while he understands the need, it speaks darkly of the Imperium's future. When Qruze reminds him of the necessity, Dorn sadly replies that it will result in the Imperium becoming a 'machine of iron and blood'. Finally, Voss reveals that after the Council dissolved the Order, Voss defiantly went with several other Remembrancers to Istvaan V to meet with Horus, as their duty was to record and spread the truth, no matter what. They were allowed to meet Horus, only for all but Voss to be killed on Horus' orders. Voss was spared to record everything the Warmaster did, leading Voss to realize that the future was dead. Dorn flies into a rage, but to Qruze's surprise, Voss remains unaffected. Voss acknowledges Dorn saying that Horus will be defeated, but leaves Dorn unable to reply when he asks what will they rebuild the Imperium from. Voss continues, saying that the loyalists cannot trust anymore, and without trust, their ideals - the Imperial Truth - will die, implying without it, the Imperium cannot return to its former glory, nor achieve the future they fought for. Dorn then asks why Voss says all this, to which he replies that as a Remembrancer, he must reflect the truth. Voss then challenges Dorn's claim that he does not fear the truth by asking him to release Voss' record of Horus' actions. Dorn then tells Voss that the latter has condemned himself, to which Voss sadly agrees, revealing that the true reason Horus spared him and allowed him to be 'rescued' by the Imperium was to make Dorn realize that they were still the same, and that they were both killing the Imperium's future merely in different ways. Qruze later asks Dorn if he believes the Imperium's ideals are dead, to which Dorn darkly replies they never existed at all. Qruze prepares to personally execute Voss, but Dorn decides to do it himself. As Dorn raises the blade, Voss looks at him in the eyes, and sees despair locked deep within Dorn. Voss then tells his old friend good luck, and does not look away as the blade falls. Dorn reads one line of text from Voss' record, then orders it burnt.
Manchu wrote:Even then -- who would just totally believe some weird psychotic vision? I think it's clear that Horus just used the vision as an excuse to do what he already wanted -- just like Magnus -- just like Lorgar -- just like all of them in one way or another.
Or it was the little nudge that he needed. It's quite an interesting topic in itself this. Does it make the Traitor Primarchs any less guilty if they did have these flaws bred into them and if they were guided to their chosen path by the Chaos Gods?
Just Dave wrote:I disagree, I can quite understand Horus' turning traitor (though I can also understand people thinking he's a fool).
But then Dave, it does come down to him throwing a poopie, if there had been a statue of Horus handshaking the Emperor with his brothers around him, Horus might have been content, recognising that he was treated as an equal and not listening. The Chaos Gods showed Horus what they needed him to see, that he had been cast aside, playing on his fears that he wouldn't be remembered. Well, that's my opinion anyhoo.
Midnightdeathblade wrote:
And that my children, was the tale of DICK RED SPACE EX-SON, THE RAPIST.
Ne'er a finer tale 'er told. I salute you!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:The Emperor is as much to blame for the way the Primarchs turned out, perhaps he should just have made 20 Guillimans?
So he can have 20 traitors instead of just 9? If second-guessing the Emperor is treason then the Codex Astartes is as much a work of treachery as the Book of Magnus. The really hilarious part is when in Know No Fear Guilliman states that his "father" doesn't make disposable sons. .
I wasn't sure which one would have been the best template as they all seem to have their issues. None of them are a real great example of what the Emperor would truly want.
This though, I put down to them being scattered. The Emperor had all intention of bringing them up on Earth the way he wanted.
Now on the question of loyalty, that is another interesting one. He is acting in support of the Imperium as a concept, but not doing anything to support the Imperium and Emperor as they currently exist.
Please elaborate....
Well the lack of Ultramarine support at Terra is pretty much a given, unless one of the HH books retcons the bejesus out of stuff. Before the HH books started, the reason for that was because Horus sent the Ultramarines off to nowheresville on a snipe hunt, then sicced the Word Bearers on them. Now, in some of the books, it's looking like in addition to all that, Guilliman made a decision to not attempt to relieve the siege at Terra (which even though he had no direct knowledge of, he knew it had to be Horus' endgame). Instead it appears that he focused his efforts on building a force that could hold the Imperium together in the event that the Emperor didn't win. Now Guilliman knew that the Emperor had built the Imperium for a reason, and that he considered it the best hope for the survivial of humanity, so the end result is that Guilliman appears to be taking actions that are more supportive of the continued existance of the Imperium in some form in the future, but not being particularly supportive of either the current Imperium or the Emperor. Support for the current Imperium and the Emperor would have taken the form of direct assistance (or at least the attempt thereof) to Terra. They might not have gotten there due to distance and warp storms, but those same conditions didn't stop other Loyalists from making the attempt.
Alternatively, you can look at it this way.
Alpharious and Omegon knew that the Emperor's ultimate foe was Chaos, they then made the decision to work against the Emperor in order to bring about its defeat.
Guilliman knew that the Emperor's most important work was the survival of humanity via the Imperium, he made the decision to not assist the Emperor in order to better secure the future of the Imperium.
Well Dave that's intresting perspective, but I think RG isn't that deep....IMHO he did't have any real power on Tera and only trying to be a rolemodel for others...anyway ty for replying...
Rogal Dorn was a good leader, but as was stated in the First Herectic if things went bad Roboute would most likely take over the Imperium for he has his fathers personality his willingness to do acts that seem cruel for the betterment of man. Horus was favored but he was not the kind of leader that Roboute was. Horus was easily swayed by really anyone and its sad how bad of a warmaster abaddon is at least in the soul hunter book he is a bad general.
Gabrial Seth wrote:Rogal Dorn was a good leader, but as was stated in the First Herectic if things went bad Roboute would most likely take over the Imperium for he has his fathers personality his willingness to do acts that seem cruel for the betterment of man. Horus was favored but he was not the kind of leader that Roboute was. Horus was easily swayed by really anyone and its sad how bad of a warmaster abaddon is at least in the soul hunter book he is a bad general.
Regarding Abaddon, I strongly disagree. There's never really been anything to suggest he's a weak general unless you're going to believe that stuff regarding all the Black Crusades being failures...
Heck, AD-B himself said on the matter:
"Soul Hunter's not a grrrreat showing for Abaddon, because Talos is seeing the moment through distorted lenses. What Talos sees isn't necessarily the man Abaddon really is - he makes a lot of assumptions based on his own understanding of the Legions after the Heresy. I tried to show a little bit of that afterwards, when it turns out that despite the moment's importance for Talos, for Abaddon, he couldn't really have cared less. For Talos, it was a major moment in his life. For Abaddon, it was just Tuesday."
Personally, I'd say Horus is the best leader, with Guilliman second best. However, Guilliman is more suited for leading the Imperium IMHO. Horus may be a better general, nicer or more charismatic (particularly to his brothers), but he would struggle with having to be The master, rather than Warmaster. That's my opinion at least.
Individually, none of them are really as good a leader as the Emperor would be IMHO, but Guilliman's got the best chance for such a role...
Manchu wrote:It's my own belief that he specifically engineered some of them to fail. Again, not saying he's a great guy by IRL standards. And even if this is true, Magnus is still a traitor.
Peoples' personalities are shapes by their environment and social stimulus. Since the primarchs were supposed to be raised and nurtured by the emperor, rather than distrubuted at random, you can't really claim that the emperor wanted them to be imperfect.
daveNYC wrote:
All the primarchs had serious character flaws. Heck, it's even money that the reason the missing primarchs were gotten rid of is because they were too normal and nobody could stand being around them.
You're really taking a 40k viewpoint to the 30k setting in regards to the status of the Emperor and how he should be obeyed. Blind, unthinking obedience is not in-line with the tenants of the Imperial Truth, nor does it make sense given what know about him. In the HH era, he is simply The Emperor, it's only a few thousand years later that he gets 'God' as his middle name.
In a related question: If breaking the Emperor's declaration at Nikaea made Magnus a trator, then where does
Spoiler:
The Lion
stand after the story in The Primarchs?
I find it amusing that an unthinking deference to authority is equated with moral righteousness in this thread There is such a thing as chaotic good, you know.
well it also stated from the point of view of the Night Lords that abaddon streched his forces or pushed to far into the imperium from his base in the eye
Manchu wrote:It's my own belief that he specifically engineered some of them to fail. Again, not saying he's a great guy by IRL standards. And even if this is true, Magnus is still a traitor.
Peoples' personalities are shapes by their environment and social stimulus. Since the primarchs were supposed to be raised and nurtured by the emperor, rather than distrubuted at random, you can't really claim that the emperor wanted them to be imperfect.
Sure I can, considering I believe the hints that he made a deal with the Ruinous Powers to make them in the first place.
Manchu wrote:It's my own belief that he specifically engineered some of them to fail. Again, not saying he's a great guy by IRL standards. And even if this is true, Magnus is still a traitor.
Peoples' personalities are shapes by their environment and social stimulus. Since the primarchs were supposed to be raised and nurtured by the emperor, rather than distrubuted at random, you can't really claim that the emperor wanted them to be imperfect.
Sure I can, considering I believe the hints that he made a deal with the Ruinous Powers to make them in the first place.
RG was a second choice of a warmaster,perhaps first....
Spoiler:
To be the Emperor’s avatar, his proxy? Only Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, perhaps Dorn. Any other claims for viability were delusional. Even narrowed down to four, Dorn was too draconian and Sanguinius too ethereal. It was only ever going to be Horus or Guilliman. Horus always had the passion and the charisma. Guilliman was more clinical, considered. Perhaps that tipped it. So did, perhaps, the fact that Guilliman already had responsibilities. An empire, half-built. Ultramar. Administration. Populations. A culture. Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries.
Now this is the real question-Why was Lion so paranoid over Robute if he was lawful good? Maybe because Lion was just a prick? Or.....
Gabrial Seth wrote:hmmm that is odd why would the lion be paranoid about Robute
Dude read "The Lion" by Gav Thorpe
Spoiler:
The Lion paused and wiped a fingertip across his brow.
‘Guilliman is a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst.I know that, but I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus. Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by my anger.
Spoiler:
I know that, but I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus.
Spoiler:
I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.’
Spoiler:
‘No, it is too important,’ said the primarch. ‘Even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.’
The small figure bowed its head, and the Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow.
‘Yes, even if it costs me my Legion.’
My question isn't motive of the Lion,rather why the HELL Guilliman?Of course he had a biggest legion but why so much paranoia over the lawful good guy?Wasn't there any trust between Primarchs after heresy started, not even in Goody-Goodison?Or RG isn't a rolemodel loyal-general-governor as it seems?
maybe RG had his own plans for the imperium, you should never trust a man who appears the have the best intetions at heart for he may be plotting agianst you.
DatrhMarko wrote:My question isn't motive of the Lion,rather why the HELL Guilliman?Of course he had a biggest legion but why so much paranoia over the lawful good guy?Wasn't there any trust between Primarchs after heresy started, not even in Goody-Goodison?Or RG isn't a rolemodel loyal-general-governor as it seems?
It's not because the Lion is paranoid, but because Guilliman does actually seem to have other plans than simply stopping Horus or protecting the Emperor, IMHO.
Guilliman appears to have previously contacted the Lion with these plans to try to get him on his side and it appears that El'Jonson is going to go see Guilliman and probably try to stop it.
So again, it seems that its not because The Lion is paranoid, but because Guilliman wasn't wholly loyal - to the Emperor and/or stopping Horus. The importance is with Guilliman being described as the 3rd power, to Horus and The Emperor.
Again these two are clearly in "conflict of interest "so real question is, who is good and who has deeper agenda...
Yesterday I was readin' "Know no fear"(again),and its stated that Primarchs were made different by big E to spur them get better (healthy competition), which often led to jealousy (Lion perhaps)...
Guilliman clearly was thinking ahead (end of war) because he was preparing his astartes to be more then fighting force- like diplomats and governors and again I'dont think he was any kind of usurper...
I' dont know...Lion has much better odds going rogue...
In the previously referenced The Lion, the Lion himself basically flat-out stated his loyalty to the Emperor (to a certain Daemon IIRC), whilst that and previous novels seem to suggest that he realises he probably can't make it through the warp storms to terra so is fighting to ensure that after the heresy, there will still be an Imperium left.
The Lion is pretty much flat-out stated as thinking of the future/the end of the Heresy and is in support of the Emperor.
Guilliman MAY be thinking of the end of the war and MAY be in support of the Emperor.
The HH team seems to have been working to try and add a bit more character to both and I like what they've done:
- The Lions allegiance seems to no longer be in question and he's fighting to ensure the future of the Imperium and the Emperor's rule. He seems to be one of the (mentally) strongest Primarch's and most loyal to his pops; having been targeted by and resisting Chaos all his life (IIRCAD-B basically said something similar about the Lion).
However, despite resisting Chaos, devotion to the Emperor, fighting for the future, potentially opposing Guilliman's questionable loyalty and risking/sacrificing his Legion... He's still seen as having questionable loyalties and a potential traitor (as Kurze said would happen and as we, the player, see him).
- Guilliman was previously seen as pretty bland, characterless and unsociable.
Now he's still a brilliant commander in charge of possibly the greatest Legion, but now he displays compassion towards his brothers and devotion to humanity. He thinks about the future and the future of the Astartes, but it seems he may not think the best future is with the Emperor (and to be fair, just look at Ultramar) - he could be gathering forces to protect the future of humanity as a whole, or humanity under the Emperor.
He MAY no longer be that loyal to his father, rather than humanity as a whole, but he's gained a lot of character and intrigue.
And hey, there's still more to come from them both, particularly when they meet next...
Do you really think the Codex puts that much into the air? The argument seems slightly overstated to me, based on Know No Fear and your description of The Lion. That said, I can see how the point makes sense -- just not that it is truly supported by what the BL guys have deigned to reveal so far.
Nope. Imperial Secondus, gathering forces away from Terra, everything said in the 2 Dark Angel short stories and possibly Know No Fear (cant remember what was said in that though) is my argument.
My argument is more arguing that Lion El'Jonson IS loyal and Guilliman MAY be loyal, or less loyal...
It's a bit much to claim the names of BL publications as your argument ... how about extrapolating? Jonson's loyalty is a separate topic from Guilliman's. Jonson's suspicions about Guilliman are just more evidence that he is a very poor judge of character, IMO. Also, isn't the "Imperium Secundus" what became the Codex Astartes?
Manchu wrote:It's a bit much to claim the names of BL publications as your argument ... how about extrapolating? Jonson's loyalty is a separate topic from Guilliman's. Jonson's suspicions about Guilliman are just more evidence that he is a very poor judge of character, IMO. Also, isn't the "Imperium Secundus" what became the Codex Astartes?
That simple?I' dont think so...There's to much stuff in the air about DA to just say that...
What I mean is that Jonson being suspicious of Guilliman is not itself evidence that Guilliman is less than absolutely loyal. Jonson thought Luther was loyal, after all -- big mistake, that.
Of all the primarchs Guilliman is stated as being the most similar to the Emperor in terms of temperament and personality. And the Emperor has demonstrated that he does not let things like loyalty, sentiment or compassion get in the way of what must be done for the good of humanity. When Guilliman becomes aware of what has transpired with the Heresy he comes to the conclusion that the Imperium as it exists under the Emperor's rule is finished. When he begins writing his Codex, he has already written the Emperor off. He begins planning the Imperium Secundus so that mankind can survive the end of the Emperor. A noble goal perhaps, with the best of intentions, but - considering the Emperor is not dead yet - just as treasonous as anything Magnus ever did.
Contrast this with the Lion - who should have fallen to Chaos but manages to defy his fate out of sheer loyalty.
No -- nothing like as treasonous as what Magnus did. Magnus disobeyed a direct order on pain of the most dire punishments. Roboute wrote a book. What we know about it is its title. The rest is gleaned from the assumptions made by a man who is either paranoid or an incredibly poor judge of character -- or both!
Manchu wrote:No -- nothing like as treasonous as what Magnus did. Magnus disobeyed a direct order on pain of the most dire punishments. Roboute wrote a book. What we know about it is its title. The rest is gleaned from the assumptions made by a man who is either paranoid or an incredibly poor judge of character -- or both!
I think Lions reasoning behind his distrust of Guilliman is the nature behind the book, he's possibly not over concerned about what happens to the existing Imperium, as far as he is concerned it's a bit of a dead duck. 3 Legions have been decimated, his own Legion badly mauled. It's about making the most out of a bad situation and cutting his losses. He doesn't want Horus and the Traitors in power but doesn't believe that the Emperor is going to get through it.
That's the Lions problem, that Guilliman has made plans for the aftermath already without getting the main fight out of the way. But then that is Guilliman, acting on the practical and the event of theoretical. Practical that Horus defeats the Emperor, theoretical, somehow they win.
Rules of Engagement would seem to suggest Lions fears are true, but then The Iron Within says that Guilliman is intent on defending the Palace. If Guilliman is going to come out smelling of roses, he is going to have to show some intent of helping his father, otherwise who would follow him afterwards?
Honestly? We're really extrapolating a lot from the subtitle of this mysterious book. Please remember that Guilliman took the reins post-HH, put the Imperium back together as best as possible, and then stepped down. Jonson, on the other other hand, was best friends with his own worst enemy, who he left in charge of his homeworld and half of his legion, resulting in a betrayal great enough to break apart a planet.
Why oh why oh why does the internet bend over backward to hate on Guilliman?
It doesn't there are equal numbers of pro and anti smurf people out there (relatively), its the seeming smug arrogance and condescension directed toward every other legion/chapter that leads people to go out of their way to make something about the most bland primarch more interesting
That makes it worse. It's like pouring poison down your own well. The Lion is supposed to be some kind of strategic genius -- and yet things would have gone much better for the DA had Jonson been more like Guilliman. So we begin to see the real problem with Jonson. As Luther was to Jonson, so Jonson was to Guilliman.
Manchu wrote:Honestly? We're really extrapolating a lot from the subtitle of this mysterious book. Please remember that Guilliman took the reins post-HH, put the Imperium back together as best as possible, and then stepped down. Jonson, on the other other hand, was best friends with his own worst enemy, who he left in charge of his homeworld and half of his legion, resulting in a betrayal great enough to break apart a planet.
Why oh why oh why does the internet bend over backward to hate on Guilliman?
Is anyone hating on Guilliman here? I'm not, i'm just using what we have so far and putting together two and two to maybe get Cheesecake (I love cheesecake).
We know that Guilliman had some form of intention regarding Imperium Secondus, we know that the Lion had a conversation with Guilliman. Thanks to DarthMarko, we also have some quotes we can use.
Spoiler:
The Lion paused and wiped a fingertip across his brow.
‘Guilliman is a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst.I know that, but I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus. Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by my anger.
Spoiler:
I know that, but I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus.
Spoiler:
I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.’
Spoiler:
‘No, it is too important,’ said the primarch. ‘Even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.’
The small figure bowed its head, and the Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow.
‘Yes, even if it costs me my Legion.’
What sort of conversation or revelation would make Lion speak that way about his brother?
You can't blame Lion for Luthors actions can you really? How was he supposed to know that his trusted brother, that he should have possibly out right killed after that bomb shenanigans, would embrace Chaos?
Pilau Rice wrote:i'm just using what we have so far and putting together two and two to maybe get Cheesecake
No, you're adding 2 and cheesecake and telling me the result is 4.
Pilau Rice wrote:What sort of conversation or revelation would make Lion speak that way about his brother?
Being a damn fool who can't recognize an ally from an enemy; a person who is deeply confused about the nature of loyalty; a man who has put half his legion in the palm of the second most notorious traitor in the 40k universe.
You can't blame Lion for Luthors actions can you really? How was he supposed to know that his trusted brother, that he should have possibly out right killed after that, would embrace Chaos?
The issue isn't Luther's embrace of Chaos; his treachery came first. Jonson was blinded by sentiment to the faults in Luther's personality that would ultimate lead him to betrayal. This is a common theme in the HH series -- it mostly applies to Horus himself. Luther is the Lion's own personal Horus, with the Lion taking the position of the Emperor. The difference is that we as of yet have no reason to even guess that the Lion might have intended Luther's betrayal. Jonson truly loved his friend and saw no evil in him. The Emperor ... seems like a darker figure.
Guilliman, on the other hand, was more farsighted. More cold, as a result, yes -- but that is the real issue of the Imperium Secundus. The juxtaposition between them makes me think that Jonson's reaction stands for what we might like the Emperor to be like. But Guilliman stands for what he is actually like.
Manchu wrote:No, you're adding 2 and cheesecake and telling me the result is 4
Is there a difference? I meant the same thing, that we can go by information we have, but we are still not going to know as it hasn't been provided yet. We know something has happened and we know what the outcome is, but we are still in the dark as to what happens in the middle.
Manchu wrote:Being a damn fool who can't recognize an ally from an enemy; universe.
What, like everyone else at this moment in time?
Manchu wrote:The issue isn't Luther's embrace of Chaos; his treachery came first. Jonson was blinded by sentiment to the faults in Luther's personality that would ultimate lead him to betrayal. This is a common theme in the HH series -- it mostly applies to Horus himself. Luther is the Lion's own personal Horus, with the Lion taking the position of the Emperor. The difference is that we as of yet have no reason to even guess that the Lion might have intended Luther's betrayal. Jonson truly loved his friend and saw no evil in him. The Emperor ... seems like a darker figure.
Well it is an issue isn't it, he didn't have to fall to Chaos did he? He could have accepted his fate and got on with it, which is another re occurring notion.
manchu wrote:Guilliman, on the other hand, was more farsighted. More cold, as a result, yes -- but that is the real issue of the Imperium Secundus. The juxtaposition between them makes me think that Jonson's reaction stands for what we might like the Emperor to be like. But Guilliman stands for what he is actually like.
What that he was a bit cold, no, that has nothing to do with it. The Lion was portrayed as being a bit cold and distant as well. The issue is that Lion suspects Guilliman of wanting to usurp the Emperor himself. It's not a charisma contest, Guilliman is the right man for the job and his lack of sentiment makes him the ideal man for the job in my opinion.
Manchu wrote:No -- nothing like as treasonous as what Magnus did. Magnus disobeyed a direct order on pain of the most dire punishments.
The Emperor ordered everyone to follow the orders of Horus as if they were his own. Thus anyone who did not side with Horus disobeyed a direct order from the Emperor and is therefore a traitor.
Manchu wrote:Honestly? We're really extrapolating a lot from the subtitle of this mysterious book. Please remember that Guilliman took the reins post-HH, put the Imperium back together as best as possible, and then stepped down.
Guilliman doesn't betray the Emperor for his own selfish ends. He betrays the Emperor to save humanity. Noble perhaps, but still disloyal.
When he learns of what has transpired what does Guilliman do? Does he gather what remains of his legion and rush to his fathers aid as the White Scars and Space Wolves try to do? No. He sits back, rebuilds his strength and starts planning for the aftermath. Did the Emperor tell him "don't bother trying to save me, write a treatise about how you're going to reorganize my Imperium after I'm gone"? If the Emperor had wanted the legions disbanded and broken into chapters wouldn't the Emperor have decreed it? Why does Guilliman think that he knows better than the Emperor? Isn't that the very same sin that led to Magnus' downfall? If blind obedience to the Emperor is loyalty, then how is the Codex Astartes not a work of treachery?
Why oh why oh why does the internet bend over backward to hate on Guilliman?
Who's hating? I think this makes Guilliman actually interesting for a change.
Pilau Rice wrote:What, like everyone else at this moment in time?
You mean, Guilliman aside?
Manchu wrote:Well it is an issue isn't it?
No, it's not. It's the same with Magnus. Traitor first, Chaos devotee later.
Pilau Rice wrote:The issue is that Lion suspects Guilliman of wanting to usurp the Emperor himself.
No argument about that. I just take issue with it being credible. Jonson's suspicions regarding Guilliman say more about him than Guilliman.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Guilliman doesn't betray the Emperor for his own selfish ends. He betrays the Emperor to save humanity.
What an assumption! All based on the subtitle of a book the contents of which you know next to nothing about -- which in turn allows you to mischaracterize Guilliman's absence at Terra as Guilliman abandoning the Emperor. Horus forestalled the Ultramarines involvement at Terra by sending the Word Bearers after Calth. After mopping them up, Guilliman did make for Terra.
Just to clarify, I'm loving these changes to The Lion and Guilliman, not hating at all.
I used to care very little for the Lion, but now really like him - largely due to 2 short stories. That he's loyal, down-to-earth and willing to make sacrifices and do what many others won't. Still probably a crap judge of character though...
There's still a lot more to learn about Guilliman, but I'm liking the additions to his character; his varying relationships with his brothers, all the parallels between him and the Emperor and his plans to 'save' humanity, if not the Emperor.
I dunno ... the Lion was interesting when he might be some kind of extremely clever traitor/last minute repentant. Now, he's just the guy who can't see the tractor trailer that's about to hit him just because its not blowing its horn.
I feel like Guilliman has been getting more interesting because you can see that he's a good leader in a three-dimensional sense rather than just hearing the rote statement "Guilliman was awesomest!" Now you get to see him being awesome, so that's good.
I kind of wish they'd do more for Jonson along those lines.
Don't the Ultramarines arrive late because they are too busy fighting the Word Bearers?
Isn't Guilliman just being practical by having a new plan drawn out?
He splits the power so that no one person can rule in the Emperors stead. I'm not sure what is so sinister about that. He won't continue on with his fathers vision because he doesn't have delusions of grandeur and knows he won't/can't succeed.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Guilliman doesn't betray the Emperor for his own selfish ends. He betrays the Emperor to save humanity.
What an assumption! All based on the subtitle of a book the contents of which you know next to nothing about -- which in turn allows you to mischaracterize Guilliman's absence at Terra as Guilliman abandoning the Emperor. Horus forestalled the Ultramarines involvement at Terra by sending the Word Bearers after Calth. After mopping them up, Guilliman did make for Terra.
Absolutely untrue. Take "Rules of Engagement". That short story takes place after Calth. He is not fighting Word Bearers. Nor is he making for Terra. He is on Macragge preparing for the aftermath of the Heresy.
Manchu wrote:What? That story makes no mention whatsoever of the UM ignoring what was going on at Terra in favor of shoring up Ultramar. That's ridiculous.
Are they on their ships racing for Terra? Or are they running wargame simulations against each other to train for the aftermath?
Guilliman has enough time after Calth to return to Macragge, sit down, pen his treatise and then test it out with wargames. Note also that they are running scenarios against known loyalist legions. The fact that Graham McNeill uses the Salamanders as the theoretical enemy here is not a coincidence either. The Salamanders are noted to have opposed the adoption of the Codex Astartes after the Heresy. Perhaps Guilliman foresaw this resistance?
I'd like to see BL explore the resistance of Dorn in particular. If they ever actually wrap up this HH series maybe they could do the Iron Cage as SM Battles book.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Guilliman doesn't betray the Emperor for his own selfish ends. He betrays the Emperor to save humanity.
What an assumption! All based on the subtitle of a book the contents of which you know next to nothing about -- which in turn allows you to mischaracterize Guilliman's absence at Terra as Guilliman abandoning the Emperor. Horus forestalled the Ultramarines involvement at Terra by sending the Word Bearers after Calth. After mopping them up, Guilliman did make for Terra.
Absolutely untrue. Take "Rules of Engagement". That short story takes place after Calth. He is not fighting Word Bearers. Nor is he making for Terra. He is on Macragge preparing for the aftermath of the Heresy.
I believe that "Rules of Engagement" was written about the running of battle simulations on the way to Terra wasn't it?
I think the wargames are going on in the Ultramar system. But Abadabadoobadon is still making huge assumptions in order to justify his point -- because the only other justification for it is the Lion's untrustworthy perspective.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I'd like to see BL explore the resistance of Dorn in particular. If they ever actually wrap up this HH series maybe they could do the Iron Cage as SM Battles book.
Dorn's story will be an incredible epic. The most loyal primarch during the Heresy becomes the most imbalanced on afterward. And his shame and trauma never healed -- he just sectioned it off and it became the Black Templars.
I' always did feel sorry for Dorn- He was (for me)the one of few noble primarchs,loyal with clarity of purpose,maybe little stoic but most importantly, he had "CONSCIENCE" ...
Manchu wrote:I dunno ... the Lion was interesting when he might be some kind of extremely clever traitor/last minute repentant. Now, he's just the guy who can't see the tractor trailer that's about to hit him just because its not blowing its horn.
I dunno, personally I never really cared for the Lion/traitor theory, there was so little evidence for it (and so far in the HH series, no evidence of it); the claims of a couple of Marines after interrogation and that some Dark Angels are traitors is about it IIRC.
Afterall, if Lion was the traitor then how the heck did Luther manage to comatose a Chaos'ed-up Primarch?
I'm liking the idea of Lion being fiercely loyal and fighting for the Emperorium, then going over to try and get Guilliman into the fight*, only for him to loose half his Legion and gain a suspicious image - as Kurze said would happen.
*He may or may not be right to think Guilliman's up to something/needs encouragement to get into the fight [to save the Emperor]. I think his suspicions are justified, you seem not to. We'll hopefully find out later...
Clearly me and you disagree in regards to the Lion, so I won't try and change your opinion. You make a good point about the importance of perspective though (and how we're seeing it from the Lion's), but I do agree with (or at least like) his viewpoint as it stands.
Medium of Death wrote:Don't the Ultramarines arrive late because they are too busy fighting the Word Bearers?
Isn't Guilliman just being practical by having a new plan drawn out?
He splits the power so that no one person can rule in the Emperors stead. I'm not sure what is so sinister about that. He won't continue on with his fathers vision because he doesn't have delusions of grandeur and knows he won't/can't succeed.
Just to respond to this as you've made a few very viable posts IMHO and they've been largely looked over.
It seems the Word Bearers were sent to destroy, rather than delay, the Ultramarines (it seems they were sent pretty damn early in regards to the start of the HH), which delayed and damaged the UM's but left them very much alive.
They appear to either have time to test the Codex/Rules of Engagement and gather forces before heading to Terra... OR they have been simply delayed by Word Bearers against their will, as you said.
Guilliman may be being practical as you said, by having a back-up plan, but he may also be gathering forces away from Terra and making a power play himself. Afterall, I'd say Guilliman is the most suited to succeed the Big E and maybe becoming Lord Commander of the Imperium was his plan... Who knows?
I depends whether you think he's being practical, suspicious or both I guess...
Heck, this is the kinda intrigue the Alpha Legion would be proud of.
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Manchu wrote:He's a fantastic character. I hope they do him justice when the time comes.
Yeah, I'm loving how Dorn's been portrayed so far.
Just Dave wrote:Clearly me and you disagree in regards to the Lion ...
Eh, it seems the real disagreement comes down to why Jonson would say such terrible things about Guilliman. The trouble is, what evidence does Jonson have? This was the genius of Horus -- his betrayal would destroy the very foundation of trust among the primarchs. In his strategem, even loyalty becomes a weapon that brother can turn against brother. The Lion, a man who overlooked the flaws in his friend out of compassion, is playing right into Horus's hands by equating Guilliman with Horus. Of all the primarchs, Guilliman is the greatest threat to Horus -- not because his loyalties are questionable but because Guilliman is the most similar to the Emperor himself, at least as far as the Emperor's aspect as ruler and master strategist goes. The heritage of the Dark Angels is shame. Slights directed against Guilliman are more black marks on their already questionable record. The pity is that the sword that Jonson wants to put against Guilliman's throat is loyalty to the Emperor. And meanwhile, the galaxy burns.
So it's not that we disagree that the Lion is an interesting character, I think. As for me, I would just prefer that he not be portrayed as getting everything wrong. It's bad enough that he was blind to the faults of Luther. If he's also blind to the virtues of Guilliman, it's hard to say he's really that impressive of a guy.
For me, he will always be a sucker punch "PRICK"(SW fan:-))self centered,aggresive and paranoid... Ooooo how I enjoyed when Curze was raping him to death (I was cheering -Come on Curze, you can do it,just a bit more,and then came a backstaber:-) or :-(...
Just Dave wrote:Clearly me and you disagree in regards to the Lion ...
Eh, it seems the real disagreement comes down to why Jonson would say such terrible things about Guilliman. The trouble is, what evidence does Jonson have? This was the genius of Horus -- his betrayal would destroy the very foundation of trust among the primarchs. In his strategem, even loyalty becomes a weapon that brother can turn against brother. The Lion, a man who overlooked the flaws in his friend out of compassion, is playing right into Horus's hands by equating Guilliman with Horus. Of all the primarchs, Guilliman is the greatest threat to Horus -- not because his loyalties are questionable but because Guilliman is the most similar to the Emperor himself, at least as far as the Emperor's aspect as ruler and master strategist goes. The heritage of the Dark Angels is shame. Slights directed against Guilliman are more black marks on their already questionable record. The pity is that the sword that Jonson wants to put against Guilliman's throat is loyalty to the Emperor. And meanwhile, the galaxy burns.
So it's not that we disagree that the Lion is an interesting character, I think. As for me, I would just prefer that he not be portrayed as getting everything wrong. It's bad enough that he was blind to the faults of Luther. If he's also blind to the virtues of Guilliman, it's hard to say he's really that impressive of a guy.
It's a great post man and I can't really respond in similar depth, as ultimately we'll [hopefully] see whether Lion's suspicions were correct or not, in due course...
Out of interest, as you say you wouldn't like him to be portrayed as getting everything wrong (which I agree with), but don't seem to believe that Guilliman is actually up to something (which I disagree with), would you like his suspicions of Guilliman's loyalties/plans to be correct?
Completely agree with the point regarding Horus destroying the trust between the Primarchs; just look at Dorn.
Just Dave wrote:Out of interest, as you say you wouldn't like him to be portrayed as getting everything wrong (which I agree with), but don't seem to believe that Guilliman is actually up to something (which I disagree with), would you like his suspicions of Guilliman's loyalties/plans to be correct?
No and obviously I don't they are in fact correct. But this is a fait accompli -- strike two, as we Americans say. What needs to happen now is that the Lion gets a home run when it really counts. The BL authors should set him up in a situation where he needs foresight more than ever but doesn't have it, because obviously that is not his strength -- but he can rely on a different characteristic, something that is his strength, like the compassionate honor of a questing knight, to accomplish something meaningful before facing the final tragedy sowed by his previous mistakes in judgment.
Nice show so far you two. Didn't want to interefere, but sadly to weak to resist
Manchu wrote: What needs to happen now is that the Lion gets a home run when it really counts. The BL authors should set him up in a situation where he needs foresight more than ever but doesn't have it, because obviously that is not his strength -- but he can rely on a different characteristic, something that is his strength, like the compassionate honor of a questing knight, to accomplish something meaningful before facing the final tragedy sowed by his previous mistakes in judgment.
The chance to go without anything meaningful isn't so small. Look at the number of Primarchs without showtime, without anything decently informative. The DA have just 2 possible shows still left: the race back to Terra and the split of the Legion.
At best, its a audio-drama and some unlucky traitors bite the dust.
All we have right now is the chase after the NL and the return to Terra. The NL aren't undone by the DA, so.....
Just Dave wrote:Out of interest, as you say you wouldn't like him to be portrayed as getting everything wrong (which I agree with), but don't seem to believe that Guilliman is actually up to something (which I disagree with), would you like his suspicions of Guilliman's loyalties/plans to be correct?
No and obviously I don't they are in fact correct. But this is a fait accompli -- strike two, as we Americans say. What needs to happen now is that the Lion gets a home run when it really counts. The BL authors should set him up in a situation where he needs foresight more than ever but doesn't have it, because obviously that is not his strength -- but he can rely on a different characteristic, something that is his strength, like the compassionate honor of a questing knight, to accomplish something meaningful before facing the final tragedy sowed by his previous mistakes in judgment.
Nice perspective man, really good ideas. Take 'em to Black Library!
He'll be fast running out of chances to redeem himself or achieve that home run if he cocks it up with Guilliman though. Heck, between that and Luther, he'll need a helluva lot to restore his image. Personally, I'd rather his suspicions are correct.
To an extent, going over to Guilliman - risking his Legion in doing so - is related to the compassionate honour of a knight...
Gabrial Seth wrote:yea, till they get to the HH pop up books
Ha,ha,ha -Like new Pop up book from Dan Abnett:-) Maybe they gonna start selling book dlc-s !? If you pay 5.99 you can find out what happened to Arhiman when Magnus was climbing up to his chamber pissed-off about living automatons in his legion....
Manchu wrote:I think the wargames are going on in the Ultramar system. But Abadabadoobadon is still making huge assumptions in order to justify his point -- because the only other justification for it is the Lion's untrustworthy perspective.
Why he is running wargames in the Ultramar system when truly loyal primarchs like Russ and Khan and Sanguinius hauling ass back to Terra? He's not being delayed by Word Bearers. He's running simulations in which he fights proven loyalist legions.
Manchu wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I'd like to see BL explore the resistance of Dorn in particular. If they ever actually wrap up this HH series maybe they could do the Iron Cage as SM Battles book.
Dorn's story will be an incredible epic. The most loyal primarch during the Heresy becomes the most imbalanced on afterward. And his shame and trauma never healed -- he just sectioned it off and it became the Black Templars.
Dorn is the Emperor's Champion. I don't think Dorn is going to take kindly to Guilliman (who in Dorn's eyes failed the Emperor by not sending his legion to defend Terra) showing up with his Ultramarines after the fact and ordering Dorn to disband his legion or be destroyed. This will be the final indignity that drives Dorn over the edge. And the irony is that Dorn discusses this very issue with Constantin Valdor - the purpose of the Custodes is to protect the Emperor while the purpose of the Astartes is to protect the Imperium. Valdor insists this is essentially the same thing but Dorn does not believe this necessarily must be the case. In the end it will turn out that Dorn is not cold enough to truly put this distinction into practice. Guilliman on the other hand...
Uh no, you might have an idea of what you are talking about but I don't My point stands as it was, regardless of your logic, that until we find out, we know nothing and are just making assumptions based on what we have.
Pilau Rice wrote:What, like everyone else at this moment in time?
Manchu wrote:You mean, Guilliman aside?
It's a bit different in Guillimans circumstance, I guess in Sanguinius and maybe the Khans as well. They have been sent away without any apparent way to communicate due warp storms, psychic tampering, whatever. They are oblivious to what is happening. If Guilliman had organised the Istvaan V Operation, would he had done differently to Dorn. No, probably not. But Leman is trusting of Horus, Ferrus is trusting of Lorgar and Dorn is trusting of Curze, in despite of evidence that has been laid in front of them.
Pilau Rice wrote:Well it is an issue isn't it?
Manchu wrote:No, it's not. It's the same with Magnus. Traitor first, Chaos devotee later.
Luthor didn't go through with his betrayal though, so like I said, he could have recognised his failing and did his best to redeem himself in the Lions eyes. Maybe the people of Caliban shouldn't have betrayed Sar Luthor hmm
Pilau Rice wrote:The issue is that Lion suspects Guilliman of wanting to usurp the Emperor himself.
Manchu wrote:No argument about that. I just take issue with it being credible. Jonson's suspicions regarding Guilliman say more about him than Guilliman.
As I mentioned before, we are riding with what we have in front of us, do we know what was said between the Lion and Guilliman, do we know what is said the next time they meet, no. There's suggestion in the words of the Lion to say that there is some reason why he thinks this way of Guilliman. Perhaps it turns out to be something as simple as jealousy or his glaring inability to read people.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Guilliman doesn't betray the Emperor for his own selfish ends. He betrays the Emperor to save humanity.
Manchu wrote:What an assumption! All based on the subtitle of a book the contents of which you know next to nothing about -- which in turn allows you to mischaracterize Guilliman's absence at Terra as Guilliman abandoning the Emperor. Horus forestalled the Ultramarines involvement at Terra by sending the Word Bearers after Calth. After mopping them up, Guilliman did make for Terra.
So that's another example of hating.
He does make a point, he doesn't race back to Terra, in Rules of Engagement he has his mock battles determining how to beat them. Where are they fought? Not on Terra.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I'd like to see BL explore the resistance of Dorn in particular. If they ever actually wrap up this HH series maybe they could do the Iron Cage as SM Battles book.
Manchu wrote:Dorn's story will be an incredible epic. The most loyal primarch during the Heresy becomes the most imbalanced one afterward. And his shame and trauma never healed -- he just sectioned it off and it became the Black Templars.
Something we can agree on without having to do more posts explaining stuff
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Clearly me and you disagree in regards to the Lion ...
Eh, it seems the real disagreement comes down to why Jonson would say such terrible things about Guilliman. The trouble is, what evidence does Jonson have? This was the genius of Horus -- his betrayal would destroy the very foundation of trust among the primarchs. In his strategem, even loyalty becomes a weapon that brother can turn against brother. The Lion, a man who overlooked the flaws in his friend out of compassion, is playing right into Horus's hands by equating Guilliman with Horus. Of all the primarchs, Guilliman is the greatest threat to Horus -- not because his loyalties are questionable but because Guilliman is the most similar to the Emperor himself, at least as far as the Emperor's aspect as ruler and master strategist goes. The heritage of the Dark Angels is shame. Slights directed against Guilliman are more black marks on their already questionable record. The pity is that the sword that Jonson wants to put against Guilliman's throat is loyalty to the Emperor. And meanwhile, the galaxy burns.
But you could also deem this as the Lion trying to get it right, he is proving his loyalty to the Emperor above all others, recognising that he is the one true master of mankind and all others are not worthy. He's making a statement that he will fight for the Emperor and everyone else be damned. It's quite noble, if not a little short sighted.
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Out of interest, as you say you wouldn't like him to be portrayed as getting everything wrong (which I agree with), but don't seem to believe that Guilliman is actually up to something (which I disagree with), would you like his suspicions of Guilliman's loyalties/plans to be correct?
No and obviously I don't they are in fact correct. But this is a fait accompli -- strike two, as we Americans say. What needs to happen now is that the Lion gets a home run when it really counts. The BL authors should set him up in a situation where he needs foresight more than ever but doesn't have it, because obviously that is not his strength -- but he can rely on a different characteristic, something that is his strength, like the compassionate honor of a questing knight, to accomplish something meaningful before facing the final tragedy sowed by his previous mistakes in judgment.
There will be, it will be the final meeting between Lion and Guilliman where Lion convinces Guilliman to not give up on the Emperor and fight for him.
I'm wondering how the Dark Angels and Space Wolves meet up on their way back to Terra
Just Dave wrote:
1hadhq wrote:And they are getting closer to the Siege. As Fear-to-Tread is the last famous action of the BA before their return to Terra, right?
In the current timeline, it seems to be, but who knows...
According to their IA article they destroy a rebel fleet which was enroute to reinforce Horus on there journey to Terra.
I suspect that that BL will hump the HH series cashcow.
I mean the market researchers for BL should be watching all these Forums for what the readers desire.
My desire would be to read the story of the Lion & Lehman Russ. NOT WRITTEN BY GAVIN THORPE
And a good book recounting the 20 years Post Heresy. I want a tale about the 13th Space Wolves Great Company.
NOT WRITTEN BY GAVIN THORPE
Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:I suspect that that BL will hump the HH series cashcow.
I mean the market researchers for BL should be watching all these Forums for what the readers desire.
My desire would be to read the story of the Lion & Lehman Russ. NOT WRITTEN BY GAVIN THORPE
And a good book recounting the 20 years Post Heresy. I want a tale about the 13th Space Wolves Great Company.
NOT WRITTEN BY GAVIN THORPE
Agree..but great 13th is better when it stays enigma,its like Joker-card of the wolves,anyway
As for Guilliman,if that is all true,he is worse then traitor....
Pilau Rice wrote:... until we find out, we know nothing and are just making assumptions based on what we have.
So how does that end up being "until we know otherwise, we have to assume the Lion is right about Guilliman"?
Pilau Rice wrote:There's suggestion in the words of the Lion to say that there is some reason why he thinks this way of Guilliman. Perhaps it turns out to be something as simple as jealousy or his glaring inability to read people.
Yes, I think characters generally act according to rather than against their established personalities.
Pilau Rice wrote:He does make a point, he doesn't race back to Terra, in Rules of Engagement he has his mock battles determining how to beat them. Where are they fought? Not on Terra.
Does it ever come up in Rules of Engagement that Terra is or will be under siege?
Pilau Rice wrote:He's making a statement that he will fight for the Emperor and everyone else be damned.
Yes, and as I said, the heritage of the Dark Angels is shame.
Pilau Rice wrote:There will be, it will be the final meeting between Lion and Guilliman where Lion convinces Guilliman to not give up on the Emperor and fight for him.
Now that would be lame. The greatest coup that UM-haters could possibly imagine.
Pilau Rice wrote:... until we find out, we know nothing and are just making assumptions based on what we have.
So how does that end up being "until we know otherwise, we have to assume the Lion is right about Guilliman"?
It doesn't, what gave you the impression that it was? I'm just saying that we can speculate as much as we want, we won't know anything until something is actually written about it. You're as right as anyone else.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:There's suggestion in the words of the Lion to say that there is some reason why he thinks this way of Guilliman. Perhaps it turns out to be something as simple as jealousy or his glaring inability to read people.
Yes, I think characters generally act according to rather than against their established personalities.
He was jealous of Horus after he became Warmaster, he even tells Perturabo that he believes he should be Warmaster once Horus has been dealt with. Maybe Lion is jealous of Guilliman because Guilliman is someone who can get rebuilding the Imperium done?
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:He does make a point, he doesn't race back to Terra, in Rules of Engagement he has his mock battles determining how to beat them. Where are they fought? Not on Terra.
Does it ever come up in Rules of Engagement that Terra is or will be under siege?
I don't even think Terra is even mentioned, off the top of my head.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:He's making a statement that he will fight for the Emperor and everyone else be damned.
Yes, and as I said, the heritage of the Dark Angels is shame.
Shame that some Dark Angels turned against their own? Sorry , I miss your point here. Who beyond the Dark Angels are even aware of this? My point was just that the way i see it, this is Lion being a stellar bloke and thinking the worst of Guilliman.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:There will be, it will be the final meeting between Lion and Guilliman where Lion convinces Guilliman to not give up on the Emperor and fight for him.
Now that would be lame. The greatest coup that UM-haters could possibly imagine.
I don't know, the Lion finds out what is happening on Caliban and sacrifices his Legion to save the Emperor, don't think that's lame at all. I'm not sure on your last comment though.
This is really quite clear. There is no evidence whatsoever that Guilliman has treacherous intent toward the Emperor. There is well-established evidence that Jonson is a poor judge of character. It is not impossible to understand what Jonson's suspicion of Guilliman suggests and about whom. We don't need further clarification to see that the Lion justifies his paranoia with haughty talk of loyalty. Unsurprisingly, this is the modus operandi of Dark Angels forever after. Jonson accusing Guilliman of betrayal is yet another stain on their honor. Wasting his legion against Guilliman shows that the Lion is a patsy of Horus, and all the more pathetic for being so unwittingly.
Manchu wrote:This is really quite clear. There is no evidence whatsoever that Guilliman has treacherous intent toward the Emperor. There is well-established evidence that Jonson is a poor judge of character. It is not impossible to understand what Jonson's suspicion of Guilliman suggests and about whom. We don't need further clarification to see that the Lion justifies his paranoia with haughty talk of loyalty. Unsurprisingly, this is the modus operandi of Dark Angels forever after. Jonson accusing Guilliman of betrayal is yet another stain on their honor. Wasting his legion against Guilliman shows that the Lion is a patsy of Horus, and all the more pathetic for being so unwittingly.
Personally, I wouldn't be sure there's any point. Clearly we (Pilau, myself and you) have quite differing opinions and it doesn't appear as though this will change.
At least until the subject is further covered in the HH Series...
I'm sorry but it's not just a matter of perspective. The Lion has trouble identifying genuine loyalty. His comments about Guilliman simply cannot serve as the rational basis for the idea that Guilliman has given up on the Emperor. A story about Guilliman writing a book called Imperium Secundus doesn't get us there, either, considering that we know Guilliman is concerned with the eventual role of the Astartes and we know that the work is eventually Codex Astartes. And that Guilliman would run tactical simulations against other Astartes -- including ones heretofore thought of as loyalists -- after driving off the Word Bearers' surprise attack at great cost is self-evident without any recourse to conspiracy mongering.
Pilau Rice wrote:I must have different Heresy books to you.
Apparently! Care to actually make a counterargument?
Well. no.
I haven't got anything other than what we have been given in Rules of Engagement and the words coming from the Lions mouth in The Lion.
So he's a bad judge of Character, but something has stressed the Lion out, and Rules of Engagement and Imperium Secondus could be a possible reason for that.
Honestly, I don't believe that Guilliman is a traitor, events after the Heresy suggest otherwise, but there is something there and I find it interesting.
Manchu wrote:considering that we know Guilliman is concerned with the eventual role of the Astartes and we know that the work is eventually Codex Astartes. .
His vision of them being rulers and diplomats is vastly different to what they are now. Things changed after the Calth.
Perhaps counting that Tera will fall and marching a counteroffensive,besides you guys don't have any real facts about Guilliman only speculation- there are much more facts about Lion going rogue then RG...
Just Dave wrote:No, until we know more, the current situation between Lion and Guilliman really is a matter of perspective.
Honestly, no, it really isn't. This is like saying "we have to wait until tomorrow to see if the sun will come up." Well, yes, something catastrophic could happen in the meantime but we already have all the evidence we will ever need to go ahead and plan for the sun being up tomorrow.
Why does Guilliman appear to be mustering forces in the Ultima System, rather than hotfooting it to Terra?
Because he wants to be prepared for more than one of some huge number of possible plans that Horus might have. Come on, that's obvious. Guilliman cannot read the future. That's one of his best qualities. Everyone else is so sure of the outcome of everything (Horus, Kurze, Magnus, Lorgar, even Dorn in his more despairing moments) but Guilliman recognizes that things can go different ways and plans accordingly.
Lion may be a poor judge of character but i must say most the primarchs appeared to be, look at lorgar and his father kor phaeron and erebus, fulgrim with his sycophant followers and with his the in the words of solomon blowhard of a lord commander eidilon. Horus with his Mounival, Lion with Luther but it also states that luther was the charisma while Lion was more of the cold tactical side of the coin. Most of the ones who could not judge character fell to chaos.
Magnus had no one to blame but himself for his fall
Peterubo was a primarch full of jealousy for most of his brothers
Konrad was a brutal leader but that doesnt mean he was flawed he just knew one way to control a populance
Of course the perfect 4 had no issues with the judgement of character
Rogal- one of the most stalwart champions of the imperium
Just Dave wrote:No, until we know more, the current situation between Lion and Guilliman really is a matter of perspective.
Honestly, no, it really isn't. This is like saying "we have to wait until tomorrow to see if the sun will come up." Well, yes, something catastrophic could happen in the meantime but we already have all the evidence we will ever need to go ahead and plan for the sun being up tomorrow.
No, it's me simply saying we currently only have the speculation of one man and the unexplained actions of another - we can hash out this argument repeatedly, or we can wait until we get the 'facts', rather than speculation or unexplained actions.
Why does Guilliman appear to be mustering forces in the Ultima System, rather than hotfooting it to Terra?
Because he wants to be prepared for more than one of some huge number of possible plans that Horus might have. Come on, that's obvious. Guilliman cannot read the future. That's one of his best qualities. Everyone else is so sure of the outcome of everything (Horus, Kurze, Magnus, Lorgar, even Dorn in his more despairing moments) but Guilliman recognizes that things can go different ways and plans accordingly.
Guilliman's also logical. Horus is trying to overthrow the Emperor. Logically (IMHO), he then (and does) needs to go to Terra or at least force the Big E out of Terra.
Just Dave wrote:No, it's me simply saying we currently only have the speculation of one man and the unexplained actions of another - we can hash out this argument repeatedly, or we can wait until we get the 'facts', rather than speculation or unexplained actions.
How are Guilliman's actions "unexplained"?
- why write a book subtitled Imperium Secundus? because you're planning for what happens post-Great Crusade
- why train your legion to fight Astartes? because you were just attacked by supposed loyalists
- why not jet to Terra right off? uh, why would you without some specific intel?
Just Dave wrote:Guilliman's also logical. Horus is trying to overthrow the Emperor. Logically (IMHO), he then (and does) needs to go to Terra or at least force the Big E out of Terra.
Yeah, he needs to do that eventually. In the meantime, there's a lot more Imperium out there to despoil.
Just Dave wrote:No, it's me simply saying we currently only have the speculation of one man and the unexplained actions of another - we can hash out this argument repeatedly, or we can wait until we get the 'facts', rather than speculation or unexplained actions.
How are Guilliman's actions "unexplained"?
- why write a book subtitled Imperium Secundus? because you're planning for what happens post-Great Crusade
- why train your legion to fight Astartes? because you were just attacked by supposed loyalists
- why not jet to Terra right off? uh, why would you without some specific intel?
And why do these things instead of getting into the fight to protect your father and current Emperor? Why contact the Lion at all? Why wait so long until going to Terra?
Either way man, this debate isn't going anywhere, so personally, I'm gonna leave it at that...
Pilau Rice wrote:His vision of them being rulers and diplomats is vastly different to what they are now. Things changed after the Calth.
I don't think so. The UM are the philosopher kings of what is arguably the best place in the entire galaxy by M41.
They might get the time to write or read a book but they're not rulers of their own worlds though, they aren't kissing babies heads, opening new Asdas, that sort of thing like Guilliman wanted them to be
Just Dave wrote:And why do these things instead of getting into the fight to protect your father and current Emperor?
You already asked it and I already answered it. Guilliman was most definitely "getting into the fight." He had no reason to go straight to Terra and every reason to train his legion to fight every other legion.
Just Dave wrote:Why contact the Lion at all?
To coordinate? To make sure he's loyal? To come up with some kind of plan to defeat the traitors? Honestly, what kind of question is that? Are you really asking why a primarch that was just attacked by one brother would contact another one?
Just Dave wrote:Why wait so long until going to Terra?
And how long exactly did he wait? This is yet another example of creating "evidence" which makes your "we just don't know yet" point all the more ridiculous. There are indeed things we don't know. So let's talk about what we do know: Guilliman was attacked by the Word Bearers and then immediately set about preparing to fight any and every other legion.
Just Dave wrote:this debate isn't going anywhere
Agreed -- because it's hardly a debate. Is your point that Guilliman is potentially a traitor or is it something else? "We don't know yet" is starting to smell suspiciously like "my arguments are not sound and I want to withdraw now."
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Pilau Rice wrote:They might get the time to write or read a book but they're not rulers of their own worlds though, they aren't kissing babies heads, opening new Asdas, that sort of thing like Guilliman wanted them to be
The Knowledge about the Lions thoughts are also not common knowledge. The story merely reveals his thoughts to us. I mean his legion is all about secrets in the end and they are supicious of everyone
Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:I mean his legion is all about secrets in the end and they are supicious of everyone
Yes, that is it exactly. We have a short story about the Dark Angels Primarch acting exactly like what anyone who knows about the Dark Angels would expect him to.
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:Guilliman was attacked by the Word Bearers and then immediately set about preparing to fight any and every other legion.
On Ultramar, rather than going to Terra, where he was needed.
We have already gone over this ground. He wasn't needed there yet. If that was the case, Rules of Engagement would be a story about Guilliman choosing Ultramar over Terra. And by your own admission, this is not the case. Besides, what kind of fool goes to war without preparing? You're suggesting that Guilliman should not act like Guilliman.
Agreed -- because it's hardly a debate. Is your point that Guilliman is potentially a traitor or is it something else? "We don't know yet" is starting to smell suspiciously like "my arguments are not sound and I want to withdraw now."
Agreed, it is hardly a debate. It's more of an argument. Either way, neither of us haven't really changed our opinions and are unlikely to in the foreseeable future - hence I'm withdrawing. It's what I do if things aren't going anywhere...
It's not that I think my argument is not sound (or even correct, it's just my opinion) - you've come up with a lot of good counter-arguments, it must be said - it's that as I've said before, what we're going off is the speculation of one man and the unexplained actions of another.
As I've said before, Roboute MAY have suspicious and not wholly loyal intentions behind his actions. My argument is exactly that "Guilliman is potentially a traitor" - I'm not stating he is, but his actions so far seem pretty damn questionable (which is where me and you appear to disagree).
You appear to think Guilliman's innocent, I'm inclined to agree with the Lion.
As this is speculation until BL explains it further and as me and you aren't shifting from our respective opinions, I don't see any point in going over this further...
Pilau Rice wrote:Guilliman was attacked by the Word Bearers and then immediately set about preparing to fight any and every other legion.
On Ultramar, rather than going to Terra, where he was needed.
We have already gone over this ground. He wasn't needed there yet. If that was the case, Rules of Engagement would be a story about Guilliman choosing Ultramar over Terra. And by your own admission, this is not the case.
Didn't I say say that as we know the outcome we know that Guilliman isn't a traitor. It doesn't change the possibility that he could be choosing Ultramar over Terra currently, we don't know the specifics of why Guilliman goes to Terra. He was going to turf out the Emperor if Horus beat him, isn't that what we agreed
Manchu wrote:Besides, what kind of fool goes to war without preparing? You're suggesting that Guilliman should not act like Guilliman.
Wasn't the battering the Word Bearers gave them preparation enough
Guilliman doesn't seem like Guilliman to me before the Word Bearers attacked. For someone who has all angles covered, not knowing anything about the Heresy seems stupid to me.
Edit: Bawkses, BAWKSES, WE MUST PUT QUOTES IN BAWKSES
Just Dave wrote:You appear to think Guilliman's innocent, I'm inclined to agree with the Lion.
Don't get me wrong -- I know that "anything" could happen. If BL chooses to portray Guilliman as treacherous then they will have truly jumped the shark. And that is what is so dissatisfying about you being inclined to agree with the Lion -- there is simply no reason to agree with him. It's not like there are some reasons but they may be ambiguous. Everything that we can think of the Lion being upset over is shown in BL publications to not actually be something over which the Lion should be upset. On the other hand, we know -- again, from GW and BL publications -- that Jonson and his legion are the paragons of tragic betrayals and subsequent paranoia. Agreeing with the Lion in this case is simply not a reasonable position.
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Pilau Rice wrote:It doesn't change the possibility that he could be choosing Ultramar over Terra currently, we don't know the specifics of why Guilliman goes to Terra.
Guilliman's loyalty, like that of any Primarch, is a rebuttable presumption. "We don't know" is not a rebuttal.
Pilau Rice wrote:Wasn't the battering the Word Bearers gave them preparation enough
It would be enough if all Guilliman might have to face are more Word Bearers.
For someone who has all angles covered, not knowing anything about the Heresy seems stupid to me.
I quite agree. But there is narrative economy to think of. A story about Guilliman not being surprised isn't as good as one about him being surprised. Plus, as I mentioned before, Guilliman is a planner on the most minute level. But plans are like arguments: they are founded on premises. One of Guilliman's premises was that the Word Bearers were loyal. The attack on Calth showed that premise to be entirely incorrect. This explains why Guilliman would immediately question his other premises, including training the UM to fight Salamanders and Blood Angels, etc.
Just Dave wrote:You appear to think Guilliman's innocent, I'm inclined to agree with the Lion.
Don't get me wrong -- I know that "anything" could happen. If BL chooses to portray Guilliman as treacherous then they will have truly jumped the shark. And that is what is so dissatisfying about you being inclined to agree with the Lion -- there is simply no reason to agree with him. It's not like there are some reasons but they may be ambiguous. Everything that we can think of the Lion being upset over is shown in BL publications to not actually be something over which the Lion should be upset. On the other hand, we know -- again, from GW and BL publications -- that Jonson and his legion are the paragons of tragic betrayals and subsequent paranoia. Agreeing with the Lion in this case is simply not a reasonable position.
But hasn't it added a little flavour to the Guilliman character, if what Dave and myself are saying?
All these years it's always been Lion as the fence sitter, but what if it was Guilliman .. man, that would be a revelation.
Pilau Rice wrote:All these years it's always been Lion as the fence sitter, but what if it was Guilliman .. man, that would be a revelation.
I don't think so. That's like saying the Emperor is really Tzeentch -- dun dun DUN! It ruins Guilliman.
Ruins, or makes him better!
I'm inclined to go with better
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Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:It doesn't change the possibility that he could be choosing Ultramar over Terra currently, we don't know the specifics of why Guilliman goes to Terra.
Guilliman's loyalty, like that of any Primarch, is a rebuttable presumption. "We don't know" is not a rebuttal
Even when we don't have the entire story?
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Wasn't the battering the Word Bearers gave them preparation enough
It would be enough if all Guilliman might have to face are more Word Bearers
Hence the wink.
manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:For someone who has all angles covered, not knowing anything about the Heresy seems stupid to me.
I quite agree. But there is narrative economy to think of. A story about Guilliman not being surprised isn't as good as one about him being surprised. Plus, as I mentioned before, Guilliman is a planner on the most minute level. But plans are like arguments: they are founded on premises. One of Guilliman's premises was that the Word Bearers were loyal. The attack on Calth showed that premise to be entirely incorrect. This explains why Guilliman would immediately question his other premises, including training the UM to fight Salamanders and Blood Angels, etc.
There was chatter on the warpage firing over the whole imperium that it was war with itself, this is before Istvann V. Guilliman does not seem the person to remain oblivious to the going ons outside of Ultramar. Know no Fear changed the whole of the assault established in Battle for the Abyss, regardless of whether it was a good book or not.
- Instead of killing all those Bloodthirsters, Sanguinius actually just flirted with them like a hot chick getting out of a traffic ticket. Astounding!
- Horus could actually be a midget operating a robot giant like Krang from Ninja Turtles. So much more interesting!
- Jaghati Khan is a biological female, overturning decades of assumptions. John Blanche could say "I painted her in heels for a reason!"
Getting back to the actual topic: The 1000 Sons are not even save in Warp if you think about the 13th Legion. As far as I know (Ragnars sagas) they hunt them in the warp.
Ozerik Sleipnir wrote:Getting back to the actual topic: The 1000 Sons are not even save in Warp if you think about the 13th Legion. As far as I know (Ragnars sagas) they hunt them in the warp.
You think that's bad? Apparently, between their original small size, the burning of Prospero and Magnus' use of them in the Battle of the Fang, there's only about 1000 Thousand Sons left...
Pilau Rice wrote:All these years it's always been Lion as the fence sitter, but what if it was Guilliman .. man, that would be a revelation.
I don't think so. That's like saying the Emperor is really Tzeentch -- dun dun DUN! It ruins Guilliman.
Why not ?
And on topic about thousand sons quote from lexicanum (after battle of the Fang):
Spoiler:
The Thousand Sons committed almost all their surviving Legion resources to this campaign. Their Legion-strength at this time was down to less than 100 surviving Sorcerors, 600 Rubric Marines, their last Legio Cybernetica units and 2 million Spireguard
Pilau Rice wrote:All these years it's always been Lion as the fence sitter, but what if it was Guilliman .. man, that would be a revelation.
I don't think so. That's like saying the Emperor is really Tzeentch -- dun dun DUN! It ruins Guilliman.
Why not ?
And on topic about thousand sons quote from lexicanum (after battle of the Fang):
Spoiler:
The Thousand Sons committed almost all their surviving Legion resources to this campaign. Their Legion-strength at this time was down to less than 100 surviving Sorcerors, 600 Rubric Marines, their last Legio Cybernetica units and 2 million Spireguard
Ahriman and his Cabal had already been banished by that point. They were all Fellowship Captains, so they probably took with them the Rubricae and Sorcerers from their respective Fellowships. Not to mention the Fourth Fellowship never accompanied the rest of the legion or ever came to the Planet of the Sorcerers. So the exact number of the Thousand Sons post-Burning of Prospero/Horus Heresy is unclear, because at most a thousand Astartes from the Fourth Fellowship and a significant number of fleet and Imperial Army elements left Prospero, and those who accompanied Ahriman and his Cabal to exile.
DatrhMarko wrote:So sum it up,how many?Don't count rubric marines because they are like living automatons with no will and useless without sorcerer to guide them...
Fourth Fellowship, I'd say around a thousand, but they're not with their legion so...as for the rest, I'd say a few dozen Sorcerers at least, including Ahriman and his Cabal.
DatrhMarko wrote:I'm wondering if Arhiman is still a good guy from the book !?I' mean he refuses to acknowledge Chaos as his master, and seeks only knowlege,,,
Seeing as how he vowed to regain everything lost at Prospero, probably, though the Imperium wouldn't see it as such. But considering how far the Imperium has fallen since the height of the Great Crusade, whatever Ahriman could do once he gets his hands on the Black Library couldn't be worse. At best, he goes back in time and averts either the Burning of Prospero or the Horus Heresy, or both. At worst, he kicks Tzeentch or Chaos' ass.
DatrhMarko wrote:I'm wondering if Arhiman is still a good guy from the book !?I' mean he refuses to acknowledge Chaos as his master, and seeks only knowlege,,,
Seeing as how he vowed to regain everything lost at Prospero, probably, though the Imperium wouldn't see it as such. But considering how far the Imperium has fallen since the height of the Great Crusade, whatever Ahriman could do once he gets his hands on the Black Library couldn't be worse. At best, he goes back in time and averts either the Burning of Prospero or the Horus Heresy, or both. At worst, he kicks Tzeentch or Chaos' ass.
Manchu wrote:There is no evidence whatsoever that Guilliman has treacherous intent toward the Emperor.
Intent? Haven't you just spent 9 pages of thread arguing that intent matters not? Magnus acted with the best of intentions...
Look at Guilliman's actions. HE DOES NOT SEND HIS LEGION TO TERRA TO SAVE THE EMPEROR'S LIFE.
Manchu wrote:And that Guilliman would run tactical simulations against other Astartes -- including ones heretofore thought of as loyalists -- after driving off the Word Bearers' surprise attack at great cost is self-evident without any recourse to conspiracy mongering.
You mean the Salamanders? The Salamanders - a legion that was nearly killed to a man and whose primarch is now missing and assumed dead - all as a result of their utmost loyalty and devotion to the Emperor? Yeah, quite possibly traitors. Better run battle simulations instead of reinforcing Terra.
Manchu wrote:- why not jet to Terra right off? uh, why would you without some specific intel?
What's this? My brother Horus has gathered half the legions to overthrow the Emperor? Where are you headed, you sly fox? What's your endgame? What? Horus is heading to Terra to kill the Emperor?!?!?! Who could have ever suspected such a thing?! It would have taken a tactical geniu...!
Really. If Guilliman does not think that Horus is heading for Terra then that makes him easily THE STUPIDEST PRIMARCH HUMAN THAT EVER LIVED. Considering that upon learning of Horus' treachery every single other loyal primarch in the entire galaxy all came to the very same conclusion and immediately headed straight back to Terra? Yeah, sitting tight and waiting for more intel sounds like the smart money. Definitely.
What I find absolutely preposterous is that your willing to defend Guilliman as absolutely loyal for not rushing immediately to Terra with all haste when his father's life is in danger yet you call Magnus a traitor for disobeying a direct order in order to warn his father that his life is in danger? Sure, I guess maybe the Emperor never issued a standing order - "Dear sons, If the gak ever hits the fan, I'd rather like it if you didn't let me die. Thanks, The Emperor" - but I mean c'mon.
Abadaba.......don,funny I' think I started this beef trying to prove Lion was a half traitor based on his paranoia over Guilliman ( and Dorn ) and for trying to save his legion "no matter the cost":-)But you can't know what is Guilliman's reason -I'mean he's just to loyal to make him a neutral-traitor primarch...Wow ,to think that Um (gold standard for a "proper" space marine) were neutral (which is worse then traitor) is,uh I'dont know....I'm confused....I'm thinking http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Macragge_heresy
The Council of Nikaea wasn't called purely to bring Magnus to court. It was 2 fold, should we use Librarians? Have Magnus and the Thousand Sons gone beyond into Sorcery?
Why did the Emperor "have" to make this Council happen? Because a bunch of Primarch's who didn't really like Psychic powers hounded him to, his decree wasn't some "You will be killed if you break my order:" It was "I'm doing this because you guys are acting like children and I have to sort it out because you won't." He tried to make peace, yes Magnus had pushed the limits, was he a traitor? No. He told his men, "Do not fight the Space Wolves, don't fight at all, don't make war with them, don't use your powers." He stayed out of the fight til the last, all because, and as Ahriman and the rest found out later, "If you fight them, you are giving them the 'evidence' they want to say we're traitors." Then the Thousand Sons disappear, its entirely possible that reports of them being at the Siege of Terra are untrue, that other Traitor Legions could have used fabricated/stolen/recovered armour and gifts/blessings of Chaos to make the appearance they were. Are we ever sure of the limits of power Erebus himself held? Ahriman mentions that its unknown how much time had passed between the Battle for Prospero, the arrival on the planet of Sorcerers and the day the tower of the Cyclops broke through and "Magnus" returned. Do we know that what came out of the tower is in fact Magnus? Not something wearing a facade of Magnus, some apparition of Tzeentch?
Magnus makes me laugh really, he detested the idea of the Anathame, asking why anyone would make such a thing.
Guilliman on the other hand, well he has a legion who seem to have a thing, himself included, for anything daemonic. No questions asked, we'll use it.
I think one of the major problems with discussing Loyalists/Traitors is based on the fact we've had 20+ years of codex books saying This is a Loyalist, This is a Traitor. Here are some things to help you with your army. Go play.
We've only had 6 years of proper information on the Heresy itself, events before, events during. There is as of yet no "Events after", the books aren't there yet. You could take it that with each Heresy book to come out, the information in a Codex is slowly overridden until when the Horus Heresy novels finish and the Codex books that follow finally establish the 'set' canon.
Case in point, 3rd edition Gauntlets of Ultramar are for all intents and purposes Daemonic created weapons. 4th edition changes it, they were Ultramarine relics, lost, then retaken from a Chaos Champion by Guilliman. What hasn't changed is their origin. Still listed as "Unknown" (You could argue that because their status is "Unknown" then it can be certain they are not Imperial make, not forged by Mars, not from an STC, etc. The Imperium recognises many, if not all, of its weapons when looking at them), but we do know is they are not unique, there isn't just one set of these 'weapons'. The problem lies in the fact that the only other pair shown to exist are used by a Chaos Cult, the Creeping Shadow cult. (Inquisitor rulebook, page 93 I believe, look at the picture. They are the same as the Gauntlets of Ultramar).
If you look, you can find traitorous things about any Primarch, if you want to find them to be that way.
DatrhMarko wrote:Abadaba.......don,funny I' think I started this beef trying to prove Lion was a half traitor based on his paranoia over Guilliman ( and Dorn ) and for trying to save his legion "no matter the cost":-)But you can't know what is Guilliman's reason -I'mean he's just to loyal to make him a neutral-traitor primarch...Wow ,to think that Um (gold standard for a "proper" space marine) were neutral (which is worse then traitor) is,uh I'dont know....I'm confused....I'm thinking Matt Ward:-)
I don't think Guilliman is a traitor (but I have a less stringent definition of "traitor" than Manchu does). I don't even consider him neutral. I think he is the epitome of the Astartes - and an Astartes (as Dorn tells Valdor) puts the Imperium above all else, including the Emperor. By Manchu's strict definition this would make him a traitor since he does not put the Emperor above all else. But his "treachery" comes out of loyalty to the Imperium.
Guilliman is faced with a choice - Option 1) immediately head back to Terra to defend the Emperor, or Option 2) don't. His reasoning might go as follows:
Option 1) If I head to Terra what will likely happen?
Scenario 1A
My fleet is lost in the massive storms that are currently engulfing the Warp and my legion is destroyed.
Scenario 1B
I arrive too late to affect the outcome and upon arrival my fleet and legion are destroyed in space by the victorious traitors.
Scenario 1C
I arrive in time, and my legion along with the Imperial Fists (and whatever loyalist forces manage to reach Terra in time) stand alone against the traitors, possibly losing.
Option 2) If I don't head to Terra what will likely happen?
Scenario 2A
The Emperor defeats the traitors. Problem solved.
Scenario 2B
Horus kills the Emperor and traitors are victorious. Then I must prepare to face Horus and the traitors.
Scenario 2C
Horus kills the Emperor but the traitors are defeated. Then I must prepare to face my other (loyalist) brothers who may try to take control of the Imperium. None of my brothers have the compentence, temperament or vision to rule the Imperium. I must institute a new order.
Guilliman weighs the likelihood of all the possible outcomes and decides on Option 2. He begins preparing for the various scenarios that could result.
But here is the important point. What would Dorn do if faced with this choice? What would Russ do? What would Sanguinius or the Khan do? None of the other loyalist primarchs would even get this far in their reasoning. They would see that the Emperor was potentially in danger and would immediately take all their available assets and make for Terra with all possible haste, no questions asked. There wouldn't even be a consideration of likely outcomes. This is because they are loyal to the Emperor above all else - they are not perfect Astartes.
But here is the important point. What would Dorn do if faced with this choice? What would Russ do? What would Sanguinius or the Khan do? None of the other loyalist primarchs would even get this far in their reasoning. They would see that the Emperor was potentially in danger and would immediately take all their available assets and make for Terra with all possible haste, no questions asked. There wouldn't even be a consideration of likely outcomes. This is because they are loyal to the Emperor above all else - they are not perfect Astartes.
And ironically, had Guilliman hadn't been busy writing his book, and had rushed to Terra straight away as he should have done, Horus would have probably retreated.
Pilau Rice wrote:Even when we don't have the entire story?
Huh? What did you think I meant by "we don't know"?
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't entirely understand what you are getting at here. You said
Manchu wrote:"We don't know" is not a rebuttal
Fair enough, but how can this not be the case when we do not know? We do not know what the message from Guilliman contained, we do not know why the Lion is acting the way he is against the Lion, being a bad judge of character does not really support this. The evidence we have in front of us to support the Lions suspicions is what we have written on the pages. Guilliman himself in Rules of Engagement thinks that his actions will be called treacherous by his brothers and that the Imperium is doomed. But there is also a part saying that he will not see his fathers Imperium go up in flames. Support for and against.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:Know no Fear changed the whole of the assault established in Battle for the Abyss, regardless of whether it was a good book or not.
Seems like IRL editing problems to me. You'd have to go into greater detail as I skipped Battle for the Abyss.
WAI?! It's not that bad
The Word Bearers fleet was not expected to rendezvous with the Ultramarines at Calth, inline with the IA articles and if I recall correctly the CCG stuff. It was a surprise attack where they used Psykers, like in The First Heretic, that mask their approach in the warp. However something goes wrong and the attack doesn't quite go according to plan. You should read it Manchu, it's a got scooby do villains but the World Eater Skraal is a great Character and the void warfare is very well portrayed.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Manchu wrote:- why not jet to Terra right off? uh, why would you without some specific intel?
What's this? My brother Horus has gathered half the legions to overthrow the Emperor? Where are you headed, you sly fox? What's your endgame? What? Horus is heading to Terra to kill the Emperor?!?!?! Who could have ever suspected such a thing?! It would have taken a tactical genius...!
Reading Rules of Engagement again last night he waits 2 years, it's quite a long to wait imho.
The Word Bearers fleet was not expected to rendezvous with the Ultramarines at Calth, inline with the IA articles and if I recall correctly the CCG stuff. It was a surprise attack where they used Psykers, like in The First Heretic, the mask their approach in the warp. However something goes wrong and the attack doesn't quite go according to plan. You should read it Manchu, it's a got scooby do villains but the World Eater Skraal is a great Character and the void warfare is very well portrayed.
Wait what???Did you even read "Know no fear"? 7-8 chapters of the book is about two legions uniting (biggest force ever)...and reconsiliation (masked of course)...
The Word Bearers fleet was not expected to rendezvous with the Ultramarines at Calth, inline with the IA articles and if I recall correctly the CCG stuff. It was a surprise attack where they used Psykers, like in The First Heretic, the mask their approach in the warp. However something goes wrong and the attack doesn't quite go according to plan. You should read it Manchu, it's a got scooby do villains but the World Eater Skraal is a great Character and the void warfare is very well portrayed.
Wait what???Did you even read "Know no fear"? 7-8 chapters of the book is about two legions uniting (biggest force ever)...and reconsiliation (masked of course)...
And did you even read my post, it was in reference to Battle for the Abyss and what was outlined in the the Index Astartes article and Collectors card game.
The Word Bearers fleet was not expected to rendezvous with the Ultramarines at Calth, inline with the IA articles and if I recall correctly the CCG stuff. It was a surprise attack where they used Psykers, like in The First Heretic, the mask their approach in the warp. However something goes wrong and the attack doesn't quite go according to plan. You should read it Manchu, it's a got scooby do villains but the World Eater Skraal is a great Character and the void warfare is very well portrayed.
Wait what???Did you even read "Know no fear"? 7-8 chapters of the book is about two legions uniting (biggest force ever)...and reconsiliation (masked of course)...
And did you even read my post, it was in reference to Battle for the Abyss and what was outlined in the the Index Astartes article and Collectors card game.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:HE DOES NOT SEND HIS LEGION TO TERRA TO SAVE THE EMPEROR'S LIFE.
YES HE DOES WHY WOULD YOU SAY OTHERWISE OH RIGHT BECAUSE YOU WILL BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO ARGUE THIS EVEN IF YOUR ARGUMENT DOES NOT MATCH PUBLISHED SOURCES.
Can we go back to normal posting now?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Considering that upon learning of Horus' treachery every single other loyal primarch in the entire galaxy all came to the very same conclusion and immediately headed straight back to Terra?
Wrong yet again. I know you won't let the facts get in the way of your rant. The Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines were not present at Terra but were all en route to Terra during the siege -- despite Horus's plans of distracting them elsewhere.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:What I find absolutely preposterous is that your willing to defend Guilliman as absolutely loyal for not rushing immediately to Terra with all haste when his father's life is in danger yet you call Magnus a traitor for disobeying a direct order in order to warn his father that his life is in danger?
How is it that you cannot see that your argument relies on a huge assumption not justified by anything in published sources? Meanwhile, we have two sources describing the face-to-face confrontation between Magnus and the Emperor.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By Manchu's strict definition this would make him a traitor since he does not put the Emperor above all else.
I see what the problem is. You didn't understand my point about Magnus. My point was, when the Emperor gives you a direct order -- even saying you will be a traitor if you disobey -- and you disobey then you are a traitor no matter what. Nothing that Guilliman does or fails to do is even close to disobeying a direct command from the Emperor.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This is because they are loyal to the Emperor above all else - they are not perfect Astartes.
The Emperor created the Astartes. He is the one who determines their perfection. If the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes, then he is well pleased in them and they have fulfilled his work. I tend to agree that the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes. Guilliman did not rush headlong into disaster like every single one of his brothers.
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Pilau Rice wrote:We do not know what the message from Guilliman contained, we do not know why the Lion is acting the way he is against the Lion, being a bad judge of character does not really support this.
Yes it does. Jonson equates Guilliman with Horus. We know more than Jonson. We know that Guilliman later saves the Imperium and then steps down. He is the fething anti-Horus. The fact that Jonson says the anti-Horus is just like Horus is obvious testimony to Jonson's lack of judgment.
Pilau Rice wrote:The evidence we have in front of us to support the Lions suspicions is what we have written on the pages. Guilliman himself in Rules of Engagement thinks that his actions will be called treacherous by his brothers and that the Imperium is doomed. But there is also a part saying that he will not see his fathers Imperium go up in flames. Support for and against.
No, not support for and against. Only for. The message there is that his work is NOT treacherous but that his brothers do not have the right judgment to see that. The Lion, for example, lack judgment and so it's no surprise that he acts the way that he does.
Pilau Rice wrote:Reading Rules of Engagement again last night he waits 2 years, it's quite a long to wait imho.
But the siege is not going on during those two years, either.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By Manchu's strict definition this would make him a traitor since he does not put the Emperor above all else.
I see what the problem is. You didn't understand my point about Magnus. My point was, when the Emperor gives you a direct order -- even saying you will be a traitor if you disobey -- and you disobey then you are a traitor no matter what. Nothing that Guilliman does or fails to do is even close to disobeying a direct command from the Emperor.
No, he just plans for the Second Imperium behind the Emperors back
Manchu wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This is because they are loyal to the Emperor above all else - they are not perfect Astartes.
The Emperor created the Astartes. He is the one who determines their perfection. If the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes, then he is well pleased in them and they have fulfilled his work. I tend to agree that the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes. Guilliman did not rush headlong into disaster like every single one of his brothers.
You make that sound like Ferrus, Corax and Vulkan were dumb.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:We do not know what the message from Guilliman contained, we do not know why the Lion is acting the way he is against the Lion, being a bad judge of character does not really support this.
Yes it does. Jonson equates Guilliman with Horus. We know more than Jonson. We know that Guilliman later saves the Imperium and then steps down. He is the fething anti-Horus. The fact that Jonson says the anti-Horus is just like Horus is obvious testimony to Jonson's lack of judgment.
That's exactly my point, we know, but how the Dickens does Lion know that this is going to be the outcome, he doesn't. Dorn doesn't like it either, he only bows because he doesn't want to have the same thing happen again, he's bullied into it it. This is after the damn Heresy.
He wants to set up a new Imperium, he might be anti Horus, but that's a similarity they share. He's not fighting for the existing one, the one ruled by his Father, that's another.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:The evidence we have in front of us to support the Lions suspicions is what we have written on the pages. Guilliman himself in Rules of Engagement thinks that his actions will be called treacherous by his brothers and that the Imperium is doomed. But there is also a part saying that he will not see his fathers Imperium go up in flames. Support for and against.
No, not support for and against. Only for. The message there is that his work is NOT treacherous but that his brothers do not have the right judgment to see that. The Lion, for example, lack judgment and so it's no surprise that he acts the way that he does.
So everyone should just bend over and receive what Guilliman gives you? What would Dorn have said at this time, how would he have reacted, or Russ or Vulkan, all opposed to the Codex after the Heresy.
Manchu wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Reading Rules of Engagement again last night he waits 2 years, it's quite a long to wait imho.
But the siege is not going on during those two years, either.
No, but the 2 years is why they didn't get there in time. If they maybe left after a year they might have been there to actually help the Emperor. The Siege might not be happening but the Imperium is in flames around Ultramar.
At least the Space Wolves and Dark Angels landed in time to do some last minute moping up on Terra (WD #233).
Pilau Rice wrote:No, he just plans for the Second Imperium behind the Emperors back
Imperium Secundum could mean "Imperium Take 2" like you're saying or it could mean "Imperium Part 2" -- which is actually a supportable argument. We have no reason to think Guilliman would give up on the Imperium -- quite the reverse. So instead of imagining the book to be "Let's Do This The Right Way Next Time" how about thinking of it like "How We Rebuild After The Traitors Are Defeated"? I mean, since you know this is the Codex Astartes and you know that the Codex Astartes is exactly that. Or willful blindness and massive, baseless assumption. Whichever your prefer.
Pilau Rice wrote:You make that sound like Ferrus, Corax and Vulkan were dumb.
I don't mean to. The order to go to the Isstvan system came from Terra. But they did rush into the fray before the other four legions arrived. Had they waited, things might have been different.
Pilau Rice wrote:That's exactly my point, we know, but how the Dickens does Lion know that this is going to be the outcome, he doesn't.
Yes, exactly -- he doesn't know. He has to rely on judgment rather than foreknowledge. But he has bad judgment.
Pilau Rice wrote:Dorn doesn't like it either, he only bows because he doesn't want to have the same thing happen again, he's bullied into it it. This is after the damn Heresy.
The Codex is meant to prevent another Heresy. Dorn's insanity is the greatest example of why the Codex is necessary.
He wants to set up a new Imperium, he might be anti Horus, but that's a similarity they share. He's not fighting for the existing one, the one ruled by his Father, that's another.
No it isn't. You just read Rules of Engagement so you know what you just posted is false.
Pilau Rice wrote:No, but the 2 years is why they didn't get there in time. If they maybe left after a year they might have been there to actually help the Emperor. The Siege might not be happening but the Imperium is in flames around Ultramar.
By all means, give me a month-by-month account of the Heresy during those two years. I want to what flames and where.
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DatrhMarko wrote:Manchu -you think that the Ultramarines are the perfect Astartes?
Based on their behavior before and during the Heresy, yes -- including that when the Emperor sought to sanction and humble the entire Word Bearers legion, he did so in front of Guilliman and the Ultramarines.
