Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

Agreed. GIFT is in full effect when Ward is involved it seems.

That said I can't disagree with Ward (and I'm betting his statements aren't being quoted verbatim but are more like "what he basically said was X"). Daemons SHOULD be bad-ass mothers who take no quarter, and Grey Knights SHOULD be good at killing Daemons. What some people are seeing as a callous brush off is him being straightforward and honest.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

Agreed. GIFT is in full effect when Ward is involved it seems.

That said I can't disagree with Ward (and I'm betting his statements aren't being quoted verbatim but are more like "what he basically said was X"). Daemons SHOULD be bad-ass mothers who take no quarter, and Grey Knights SHOULD be good at killing Daemons. What some people are seeing as a callous brush off is him being straightforward and honest.

To be fairly honest that seems like what Ward would do if he wrote anything.

Eldar SHOULD be awesome psykers with elite trained units

Tau SHOULD be awesome tech users who use outside help to conquer things.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

Agreed. GIFT is in full effect when Ward is involved it seems.

That said I can't disagree with Ward (and I'm betting his statements aren't being quoted verbatim but are more like "what he basically said was X"). Daemons SHOULD be bad-ass mothers who take no quarter, and Grey Knights SHOULD be good at killing Daemons. What some people are seeing as a callous brush off is him being straightforward and honest.

To be fairly honest that seems like what Ward would do if he wrote anything.

Eldar SHOULD be awesome psykers with elite trained units

Tau SHOULD be awesome tech users who use outside help to conquer things.

Agreed. Ward seems to be the kind of guy who picks out something about an army that speaks to him and writes the book around that idea. And you know what? It works. It's not always perfect, but it works fine in my book.

I do agree Daemons should have been strong, maybe a tad stronger than the other armies. BUT: when every non-Daemon player gets upset and Ward, for all intents and purposes, says "Tough-that's how I wrote them," well, that doesn't bode well for him looking positive. Had it been something like a panel where he took questions on it and explained his reasoning better than "they should be the best"...it might have helped. For example:
"I realize a lot of you are upset at the strength of the Daemons as opposed to other armies, but here is where I am coming from with my thoughts:" and then list out the reasons in a rational manner, many players probably would have grudgingly accepted his decisions.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I do agree Daemons should have been strong, maybe a tad stronger than the other armies. BUT: when every non-Daemon player gets upset and Ward, for all intents and purposes, says "Tough-that's how I wrote them," well, that doesn't bode well for him looking positive. Had it been something like a panel where he took questions on it and explained his reasoning better than "they should be the best"...it might have helped. For example:
"I realize a lot of you are upset at the strength of the Daemons as opposed to other armies, but here is where I am coming from with my thoughts:" and then list out the reasons in a rational manner, many players probably would have grudgingly accepted his decisions.

It's hard to know what the actual context of what he said what though because the Internet is prone to taking things out of context, and then reacting out of proportion.

I've actually asked for some actual quantification in the past on how specifically the Daemons where overpowered. So far I've gotten "they were overpowered because they were overpowered" as an answer.

I have a problem with the whole "Daemons killed 7th Edition" thing too. The average codex takes about 16-18 months to be completed. The average edition book takes upwards to 2-4 years. But according to the internet the Daemons showed up in 2007, and then an edition was rushed out in 7-10 months of dev time later (add 3 months for the printing run to give us 10-13 months of work) to kick out an edition just because one book broke the edition?

And then we claim that every book released afterwards was cranked to 11 just to compete?

The saner option would honestly that if GW really felt that Daemons were that bad that they would have done a 7.5 update first through Erratta and then by changing the book itself. Or by not printing it at all.

Yet we're supposed to believe that GW somehow crapped out a full rulebook and then adjusted all the other books to make them stronger because one book was broken.

I'm going to instead assume that 8th was at least about half done when Daemons hit the shelves and every other book was written to use those same rules. That's a much simplier and more logical reason why everything changed around the time the VC and Daemons came out.

You're misunderstanding the objection.

"Daemons killed 7th edition" is not saying that they hastened GW's production of 8th, but that they rendered 7th unpleasant to play for a large number of players, leading to people shelving their armies and either playing 40k or some unrelated product.

As for overpowered, they were. Fear causing, fast troops with good combat skills that were also cheap enough to spam, and with "Ward" saves even. They were unbreakable, and with a crumble rule that unlike Undead required you to fail a leadership test first.

Then you factor in what Heralds could give them...

Let's just say that they were overpowered and underpriced and leave it at that.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I do agree Daemons should have been strong, maybe a tad stronger than the other armies. BUT: when every non-Daemon player gets upset and Ward, for all intents and purposes, says "Tough-that's how I wrote them," well, that doesn't bode well for him looking positive. Had it been something like a panel where he took questions on it and explained his reasoning better than "they should be the best"...it might have helped. For example:
"I realize a lot of you are upset at the strength of the Daemons as opposed to other armies, but here is where I am coming from with my thoughts:" and then list out the reasons in a rational manner, many players probably would have grudgingly accepted his decisions.

"
To be honest, if he was presented questions like "Why did you make Daemons so overpowered? or "Why did you break Daemon armies with Warpquake?" at a Q&A session or interview, I can totally understand brushing the question aside. That's not the right place to get into a shouting match like that, and the question is almost certainly coming from an angry or upset gamer.

He could attempt to address perceived issues in a blog post or open letter, but what motivation would he have to do that? The community at large hasn't been acting like rational people so much as frothing-at-the-mouth zealots. He would be crucified no matter what he said. And I imagine from his point of view the bitter, aggressive, condescending and outright nasty members of the community don't deserve the effort it would take to address their concerns.

There's a massive disconnect between not liking someones work, and making vicious personal attacks on them. Why would he want to do anything for the people who are attacking him? Even just a "please stop making personal attacks, it's not cool" statement would be met with cries of "well, don't make a gak product then, you neckbeard".

If he had discussed it rationally, there would be less cause for people getting pissed-giving a fairly belligerent answer is likely to piss people off. And look: it has. And a panel is a good place to discuss it. A blog is not-in a blog he could just have somebody write it for him and he wouldn't have to bother with anything. In a panel, he at least shows that he's concerned with addressing people's questions. It would do a lot to bring about good will. But he hasn't done so. At least Kelly publicly apologized for the SW codex-there are far less people pissed about that, even though there are some who still won't accept an apology.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
In a panel, he at least shows that he's concerned with addressing people's questions. It would do a lot to bring about good will.

I can't see that happening. The angry fan would be upset with his response, because anything other than grovelling self abasement on Ward's part would be rejected, and it would only enrage the Internet further.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
You're misunderstanding the objection.

"Daemons killed 7th edition" is not saying that they hastened GW's production of 8th, but that they rendered 7th unpleasant to play for a large number of players, leading to people shelving their armies and either playing 40k or some unrelated product.

As for overpowered, they were. Fear causing, fast troops with good combat skills that were also cheap enough to spam, and with "Ward" saves even. They were unbreakable, and with a crumble rule that unlike Undead required you to fail a leadership test first.

Then you factor in what Heralds could give them...

Let's just say that they were overpowered and underpriced and leave it at that.

Perhaps I am, but I see complaints like this raised a lot, and honestly the Daemons don't strike me nearly as broken as people claimed. As I've said before everyone wants progress in the game until it hurts their army somehow. Everyone wants better rules, more stuff in their books, ect, but the second it creates something that they have trouble beating or does something they don't like to their army all the bitching begins.

And that Ward save (aka an Invulnerable save, something not new to Fantasy before then) is the only save Daemons have. Yes they get a save against everything, but for a majority of the army it's a straight 5+. I believe Tzeentch only turns that to a 4+. Yes I know it can't get worse like the armour save, but coming from a 40k playing background I'm more used to armour saves that don't vanish because someone hit me with a S5 attack.

What really kills me is that Daemons were one of the few armies I was looking at starting back when I was first looking at playing Fantasy. I was turned off of them because of how down right mean the internet gets just because you mention them. I don't even play Fantasy anymore because the armies I've looked at either have people throwing bitch fits about them (Daemons where the big one at the time I was looking to start) or are frankly not very good (Beastmen, a Tree Spirit Wood Elves army). There is 0 pleasing the internet about anything, and it only seems to get worse when wargames are involved.

 Kaldor wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I do agree Daemons should have been strong, maybe a tad stronger than the other armies. BUT: when every non-Daemon player gets upset and Ward, for all intents and purposes, says "Tough-that's how I wrote them," well, that doesn't bode well for him looking positive. Had it been something like a panel where he took questions on it and explained his reasoning better than "they should be the best"...it might have helped. For example:
"I realize a lot of you are upset at the strength of the Daemons as opposed to other armies, but here is where I am coming from with my thoughts:" and then list out the reasons in a rational manner, many players probably would have grudgingly accepted his decisions.

"
To be honest, if he was presented questions like "Why did you make Daemons so overpowered? or "Why did you break Daemon armies with Warpquake?" at a Q&A session or interview, I can totally understand brushing the question aside. That's not the right place to get into a shouting match like that, and the question is almost certainly coming from an angry or upset gamer.

He could attempt to address perceived issues in a blog post or open letter, but what motivation would he have to do that? The community at large hasn't been acting like rational people so much as frothing-at-the-mouth zealots. He would be crucified no matter what he said. And I imagine from his point of view the bitter, aggressive, condescending and outright nasty members of the community don't deserve the effort it would take to address their concerns.

There's a massive disconnect between not liking someones work, and making vicious personal attacks on them. Why would he want to do anything for the people who are attacking him? Even just a "please stop making personal attacks, it's not cool" statement would be met with cries of "well, don't make a gak product then, you neckbeard".

I do agree that if someone ask a question like "Why did you make this move OP" Im okay with him brushing it off. Its kind of a bad question to ask especially in a Q&A event. However had he been receptive from Codex SM with a "what did you not like about my codex" when the hate for him wasnt anyone as bad as it is now, he would have had a chance to help save his image and improve his writing. Ask what the people would like him to watch, and remember that as he wrote Blood Angels. After Blood Angels he ask again and remember that when he wrote Grey Knights and we could have gotten a very different book. THAT could have really helped out, however hindsight is 20/20 and its simply too late now for him to save himself. Even if he wrote a new codex SM that really made the Ultramarines to be more tamed chances are he would still have the fans against him.

Of course that would make sense for me sense I hate his Ultramarines and Grey Knights. If he fixed Ultramarines to be more like Graham McNeill's UMs from the BL Books he would still have the Grey Knights that I wouldnt like, though I would be pleased to see the new UMs that have flaws in their character and are clearly not the best at everything they do no matter what it is

ClockworkZion wrote:

Perhaps I am, but I see complaints like this raised a lot, and honestly the Daemons don't strike me nearly as broken as people claimed. As I've said before everyone wants progress in the game until it hurts their army somehow. Everyone wants better rules, more stuff in their books, ect, but the second it creates something that they have trouble beating or does something they don't like to their army all the bitching begins.

And that Ward save (aka an Invulnerable save, something not new to Fantasy before then) is the only save Daemons have. Yes they get a save against everything, but for a majority of the army it's a straight 5+. I believe Tzeentch only turns that to a 4+. Yes I know it can't get worse like the armour save, but coming from a 40k playing background I'm more used to armour saves that don't vanish because someone hit me with a S5 attack.

What really kills me is that Daemons were one of the few armies I was looking at starting back when I was first looking at playing Fantasy. I was turned off of them because of how down right mean the internet gets just because you mention them. I don't even play Fantasy anymore because the armies I've looked at either have people throwing bitch fits about them (Daemons where the big one at the time I was looking to start) or are frankly not very good (Beastmen, a Tree Spirit Wood Elves army). There is 0 pleasing the internet about anything, and it only seems to get worse when wargames are involved.

Daemons were not balanced in any way shape or form...

Do you know that 3's are the average statline in Fantasy?
No Core unit outside of Daemons get troops with crap like WS5/S5 attacks that strike at initiative order! (go-go Bloodletters). No Core unit outside of Daemons get troops with WS5/A2/I5 who can then also gain ASF for having a Hero plonked into the unit (yay for Daemonettes).

Do you realise that the Magic Phase now has a dice cap because opponents for some reason thought it was OP for an army to generate 22+ casting dice, and then be able to spam 7-8 times or more a 3+ to-cast magic missile spell that did D6+1/SD6+1 hits?
Because Tzeentch armies were infanous for that! Sure Dark Elves & VC's could push the boundries there too, but they didn't have the outright instant damage dealing ability Daemons have.

You do realise that Flamers were perhaps the most broken unit in the game?!
A skirmishing unit with BS4/S5/T4/W2/A2, that could march 12" a turn and then each of the buggers got D6/S4 shots with no negative modifyer for multiple shots! And all for just the low-low cost of 35pts a pop!
You do understand there's a damn good reason most tournaments severely limited the number of them you could take?!

Slaanesh armies had a dirty, filthy list known as the Ld-bomb. Pretty much any Ld tests you needed to take would be at best around Ld6/7! (and that's if you had a Ld10 general!)
In an edition were Fear was still game-breaking, guess what? That list was entirely game-breaking!

Who the hell would want to fight a Bloodthirster that got 2D6+2 attacks every turn?



Hell, I haven't even begun on the Gifts section...

I was a huge Fantasy player in early 7th. I even wanted to start a Daemon myself when I first saw the new models coming with the book. Then I saw what that pile of steaming turd book could do, and I just gave-up the idea and played 40k Daemons instead.
I couldn't make a tame/friendly list with that book to save my life! Even just blindly throwing darts at the army list and picking units that way would give you a very strong force! (since you couldn't legally field nothing but Daemon Princes, Nurglings, Furies & Beasts of Nurgle - the worst of the best choices in that book!)

Experiment 626 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Perhaps I am, but I see complaints like this raised a lot, and honestly the Daemons don't strike me nearly as broken as people claimed. As I've said before everyone wants progress in the game until it hurts their army somehow. Everyone wants better rules, more stuff in their books, ect, but the second it creates something that they have trouble beating or does something they don't like to their army all the bitching begins.

And that Ward save (aka an Invulnerable save, something not new to Fantasy before then) is the only save Daemons have. Yes they get a save against everything, but for a majority of the army it's a straight 5+. I believe Tzeentch only turns that to a 4+. Yes I know it can't get worse like the armour save, but coming from a 40k playing background I'm more used to armour saves that don't vanish because someone hit me with a S5 attack.

What really kills me is that Daemons were one of the few armies I was looking at starting back when I was first looking at playing Fantasy. I was turned off of them because of how down right mean the internet gets just because you mention them. I don't even play Fantasy anymore because the armies I've looked at either have people throwing bitch fits about them (Daemons where the big one at the time I was looking to start) or are frankly not very good (Beastmen, a Tree Spirit Wood Elves army). There is 0 pleasing the internet about anything, and it only seems to get worse when wargames are involved.

Daemons were not balanced in any way shape or form...

Do you know that 3's are the average statline in Fantasy?
No Core unit outside of Daemons get troops with crap like WS5/S5 attacks that strike at initiative order! (go-go Bloodletters). No Core unit outside of Daemons get troops with WS5/A2/I5 who can then also gain ASF for having a Hero plonked into the unit (yay for Daemonettes).

Do you realise that the Magic Phase now has a dice cap because opponents for some reason thought it was OP for an army to generate 22+ casting dice, and then be able to spam 7-8 times or more a 3+ to-cast magic missile spell that did D6+1/SD6+1 hits?
Because Tzeentch armies were infanous for that! Sure Dark Elves & VC's could push the boundries there too, but they didn't have the outright instant damage dealing ability Daemons have.

You do realise that Flamers were perhaps the most broken unit in the game?!
A skirmishing unit with BS4/S5/T4/W2/A2, that could march 12" a turn and then each of the buggers got D6/S4 shots with no negative modifyer for multiple shots! And all for just the low-low cost of 35pts a pop!
You do understand there's a damn good reason most tournaments severely limited the number of them you could take?!

Slaanesh armies had a dirty, filthy list known as the Ld-bomb. Pretty much any Ld tests you needed to take would be at best around Ld6/7! (and that's if you had a Ld10 general!)
In an edition were Fear was still game-breaking, guess what? That list was entirely game-breaking!

Who the hell would want to fight a Bloodthirster that got 2D6+2 attacks every turn?



Hell, I haven't even begun on the Gifts section...

I was a huge Fantasy player in early 7th. I even wanted to start a Daemon myself when I first saw the new models coming with the book. Then I saw what that pile of steaming turd book could do, and I just gave-up the idea and played 40k Daemons instead.
I couldn't make a tame/friendly list with that book to save my life! Even just blindly throwing darts at the army list and picking units that way would give you a very strong force! (since you couldn't legally field nothing but Daemon Princes, Nurglings, Furies & Beasts of Nurgle - the worst of the best choices in that book!)

It's come up a few times before so I decided to look at the book that came before Daemons of Chaos: Hordes of Chaos.

And you know what? Most of what you're bitching about is in that book. Bloodletters as WS5/S5 core? Check. Heck Flamers in the new book got 10 points more expensive a piece when they split from the Pink Horrors.

Yes, Ward made things MORE expensive.

So I'm going to have to say that Ward didn't break the game with the DoC. He took a project he was given (to make Daemons their own book), took stuff from the old book (which you could build a 100% Daemon list with before) and fleshed it out into an army that could stand on it's own a little better.

tl;dr: Go read Hordes of Chaos. Most of these complaints start there, not with Ward.

 Zweischneid wrote:

SC's by Phil Kelly are far sillier than anything Ward's ever written (Mowgli-Marine on a Wolf says hi). Phil Kelly also has the worst grasp of the rules, demonstrated very easily by the fact that his books need the most FAQ. Always.

I think that was probably more of a studio choice than Kelly, ''lets have some SWs riding giant wolves'' kind of idea. But that being said, yes I didn't take into account the SW codex. I view this as a Kelly goes Ward codex. It's his attempt at emulating Wards style of codex IMO. The codex as a whole aside, lets look at the characters... yes Canis is silly, Draigo is silly, Mordecai with his resurrecting paladins is silly, Mephiston with his DP stats is silly... Ward creates silly special characters, they are like a trademark for him...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

SC's by Phil Kelly are far sillier than anything Ward's ever written (Mowgli-Marine on a Wolf says hi). Phil Kelly also has the worst grasp of the rules, demonstrated very easily by the fact that his books need the most FAQ. Always.

I think that was probably more of a studio choice than Kelly, ''lets have some SWs riding giant wolves'' kind of idea. But that being said, yes I didn't take into account the SW codex. I view this as a Kelly goes Ward codex. It's his attempt at emulating Wards style of codex IMO. The codex as a whole aside, lets look at the characters... yes Canis is silly, Draigo is silly, Mordecai with his resurrecting paladins is silly, Mephiston with his DP stats is silly... Ward creates silly special characters, they are like a trademark for him...

Why would Kelly, the veteran of over a decade of writing 40K-books "go Ward" after (if not simultaneously to) Ward publishing his very first 40K Codex?

Why exactly is Kelly's silly "a studio choice" but Ward's (allegedly) silly his fault and his fault alone (again, with Kelly being the senior guy and Ward being the newb)?

Doesn't add up to me.

The SW codex came out after the SM by months, take the basis of the SM use that to keep SW in line with them (so as not to OP or UP them when compared to SM) Kelly is known for trying to get balance into his codex. He'd easily have to tried to achieve balance with the new SM codex.

And why is it a studio choice? Just look back over the previous editions of Kelly's work, nothing outrageously new or silly. Previous CSM codex is a shining example of mediocrity. And isn't Mat Ward currently the lead developer/writer for GamesWorkshop? Having written both WHFB and 40k latest editions, as well as a myriad of new books and codexs.

EDIT: grammar

EDIT2: Just for reference I don't dislike Mat Ward, he is taking GW in a new more dynamic direction which is good for them. I just find there is sooo much cheese in his codexs that it makes me wonder about his diet...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
The SW codex came out after the SM by months, take the basis of the SM use that to keep SW in line with them (so as not to OP or UP them when compared to SM) Kelly is known for trying to get balance into his codex. He'd easily have to tried to achieve balance with the new SM codex.

So that is why pretty much everything in the Space Wolves Codex does everything better than Marines while also being cheaper in the bargain? Not to mention flaunting standard FoC limitations, etc.., just for the heck of it? And adding a heavy helping Wound Abuse shenanigans on top of it, just to round it out, despite this gak being known as broken since the Ork Codex?

Must have a strange conception of balance?

But than again, if that is what Kelly thinks is balance, it might help explain the utter loop-sided trainwreck of Cheese-Falcons in 4th Edition.

Again your not looking into his previous work. One codex out of wack that came right after a rather telling edition for SM is not a surprise. And the skimmer spam was a result of the rule book not the Codex. Eldar weren't the only ones up to those shenanigans back then and Tau were far worse with every single vehicle they had being a skimmer. The wound shenanigans were everywhere in 4th and 5th not just Kelly's codex, plus mech spam became the norm for almost all armies back then too...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Again your not looking into his previous work. One codex out of wack that came right after a rather telling edition for SM is not a surprise. And the skimmer spam was a result of the rule book not the Codex. Eldar weren't the only ones up to those shenanigans back then and Tau were far worse with every single vehicle they had being a skimmer. The wound shenanigans were everywhere in 4th and 5th not just Kelly's codex, plus mech spam became the norm for almost all armies back then too...

Well, if it's ok to publish badly written books following a badly out of whack codex, there can't be anything wrong with any book written AFTER the atrocious Space Wolves Codex, now can there? And if mech-spam was the norm, you can't really blame Ward for the popularity of Vulkan/Melta either, which was a reaction to the widespread mech-spam (and, to a lesser degree, the deluge of nob-biker lists that polluted the game for a while thanks to Kelly).

And the rest of Space Marines Codex is exquisitely well balanced, with perhaps slightly undercosted TH/SS (rectified in later SM books) and slighly overcosted Devastators (also rectified in later SM books). Certainly nothing anywhere near the totally -out-of-whack lists produced by the Space Wolves Codex.

Exactly the SM codex has been updated since, SW hasn't. The SW codex is still based around the old SM codex as it is from a previous edition. And what about Draigo? Mordecai? Imhotek? Mephiston? 4 examples there for silly SCs compared to Kelly's one... Canis. Grimnar is a lot like Calgar, just all wolfy, that shows Kelly was emulating Ward's previous dex.

Ok let me put it this way, if we look at Codex's designed for 6th we have Crons (by Ward), GK (by Ward) and CSM (by Kelly). Make of that what you will.

If Kelly is so much better then Ward, then why did he not write the main rulebook?

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:


Ok let me put it this way, if we look at Codex's designed for 6th we have Crons (by Ward), GK (by Ward) and CSM (by Kelly). Make of that what you will.

Who says they were?

If anything, the Necron problem with Flyers seems to me a pretty strong indicator that there were changes to the way flyers work that were not anticipated by the Necron Dex. Much less the much earlier GK Dex. And CSM isn't a 6th Edition Codex, not even a 5th Edition Codex, as much as a copy & paste of the 4th Edition Codex.

And if you think everything from early 2011 forward (GK) was done with 6th Edition rules already in the bag, you missed Sisters. Not to mention that Dark Eldar came out less than 3 months before Grey Knights. Seems implausible that GK already knew about 6th Edition details but DE did not. Or did they write 6th Edition over the Christmas Holidays in 2010?

If anything, I hope Dark Angels will be the first 6th Edition Codex we'll see, as Vetock was a pivotal person designing 6th Edition rules.

Lets call it what it is, MATT ward is not doing anything that he is not being asked to do. That being said, lets see how the new Dark Angels codex reads, these guys will be the new force to be reckoned with. Flavor of the month is right, after all gamesworkshop wants to sell more models. Writing super human rules in to the army books is an easy way to do just that.

@ thenoobbomb
At no point did I say Kelly was better, simply stating the facts. Kelly makes balanced codexes, one bad example doesn't ruin his decades of stable books, one edition where skimmers were abused doesn't stand up either. Mat Ward writes terrible fluff, but he is sending 40k in a new direction and thats fine with me. The guy writes top tier codexes nothing less, and so other codex authors don't compare.

@ Zweischneid
GK have a Psyker level system as well as rules that function better in 6th than in 5th, all implemented in 6th edition, and Necrons have special rules in the codex not even in 5th edition rule book.

Dark Eldar were probably finished when work started on the GK and 6th Edition development probably started around that time too, so things could easily be carried into 6th from GK. In other words it was done with 6th in mind not based on 6th.

In your mind CSM isn't a 6th edition codex? But its the only actual codex released since 6th came out... that points to Ward's codexes being OP (yes, I know, GK aren't as OP as they were) as his codexes are still top tiers while an actual 6th codex enters at a mid-tier level. So either his codexes are OP, or they were geared with 6th in mind so as to maintain their life span into 6th.

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

yeah only he was acting the same before those happened . People knew nothing about him when he made demons and his anwser to why demons are OP was that because they should be OP.

ClockworkZion wrote:

It's come up a few times before so I decided to look at the book that came before Daemons of Chaos: Hordes of Chaos.

And you know what? Most of what you're bitching about is in that book. Bloodletters as WS5/S5 core? Check. Heck Flamers in the new book got 10 points more expensive a piece when they split from the Pink Horrors.

Yes, Ward made things MORE expensive.

So I'm going to have to say that Ward didn't break the game with the DoC. He took a project he was given (to make Daemons their own book), took stuff from the old book (which you could build a 100% Daemon list with before) and fleshed it out into an army that could stand on it's own a little better.

tl;dr: Go read Hordes of Chaos. Most of these complaints start there, not with Ward.

I have Hordes of Chaos. I played Hordes of Chaos. Daemons overall were lackluster to outright suck'tastic in 6th. They weren't actually viable as a true stand alone army until the Storm of Chaos 'Daemonic Legions' list.

Your Bloodletter idea? Let's check that out shall we;
HoC 'Letter = M4/WS5/BS0/S5/T3/W1/I4/A1/Ld8 + Frenzy for 16pts a pop
Unit Command cost = 30pts total, no upgradable Icon

HoC 'Letter = M5/WS5/BS0/S5/T3/W1/I4/A1/Ld7 + Killing Blow for just 12pts a pop
Unit Command cost = 30pts total, upgradable Icon choices between "march even if enemies within 8"." or "add D6" to first charge"

Also, Daemonic Instatbility was crippling in HoC. (ie: If you failed your Ld check outright, your entire unit simply went 'poof'!)
So, not only did Bloodletters get cheaper in Ward's book, they got a buffed version of the Undead crumbling mechanic, AND higher movement which was game-winning in 7th due to how charges worked, AND they traded Frenzy (which you could lose) for the far, far superior Killing Blow rule.

Ward would have been fine if he left Bloodletters with the exact same stats, killing blow and the Undead crumbling mechanic. Those Bloodletters would still have been solid for 15/16pts a model - they would still be roughly equal with the current Chaos Warriors.
At their current cost and rules he did give them however, they're just too good.

As for Flamers? Read their HoC rules:
- Worse statline than what Ward gave them.
- Flames of Tzeentch were only 8"/D6/S3 shots, NOT 18"/D6/S4 shots!
- They always acted as single models, not units.
- If they moved more than 5" away from their parent Pink Horror unit, they could insta-pop. (that alone made them pretty much useless)
A paltry 10pts increase is just plain silly for what they turned into. Sure Ward made them a Rare unit. But even at the standard 2k of 7th ed Fantasy, you could easily have 12 of the damn ards.



Ward deserves the dislike he gets because more so than the other authors, he either invalidates people's army/s by making OTT rules, (ie: Daemons or Tyranids vs GK's), or else he ruins the game itself (Daemons in 7th & Undead in 8th before their new books).

Kelly may have goofed with SW's. But SW's didn't invalidate any other army or break the game. At their release, SM's/Orks & Daemons could hang with them pretty evenly, while IG/BA's/DE came out around the same power level, and GK's were a giant leap ahead of 'em.

Cruddace's Tyranids may have been behind the curve, but they still had a gimmick or two and they've gained a good bit in 6th. IG on the other hand were and still are a top contending army, but again, they didn't cause people with army 'X'/'Y'/'Z' to shelve their entire force!

Ward? SM's was solid. BA's gave vanilla players cause for butthurt and had a few OTT units, (Mephy & Baal Preds). GK's forced every Tyranid & Daemon player to quite their armies and shelve them...
Oh yeah, then there was 7th ed Daemons!

ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't even play Fantasy anymore because the armies I've looked at either have people throwing bitch fits about them (Daemons where the big one at the time I was looking to start) or are frankly not very good (Beastmen, a Tree Spirit Wood Elves army). There is 0 pleasing the internet about anything, and it only seems to get worse when wargames are involved.

This is pretty true. I remember when spirit wood elves* were the big complaining point in fantasy and all of the things to moan about before that. GW complaints move in circles along with the people they blame although Ward just about gets it worse than Gav Thorpe did.


*pretty sure Ward is named as coauthor in the WE book.

Oh, I played demons from 5th edition through to 8th and 7th was certainly the strongest they'd been since the raveniing hordes reboot list at the beginning of 6th. I always played them because I liked them in the 4th ed book and went for it with the update, but it did seem as though they suddenly became the favoured army of the tournament players I know (quite a few a UK regulars inc a masters winner)

Experiment 626 wrote:
*snip*

Alright, since we're going to do this, let's do this right. Let's take a look at some stuff side-by-side and give it all complete disclosure on how it all fairs in changes and what they really mean. I'm doing this from an outsider's perspective on the book so I won't be able to give all the ins and outs of what these rules meant in their editions, but let's get a baseline at least:

Core Rules
Daemonic Instability
6th: If Daemons lose combat roll 2D6 and compare the difference with no modifiers. If the roll is higher than the Ld, the Daemons are destroyed. If the unit passes the die roll is then compared to the Ld value counting in modifiers, for each point it fails by the unit suffers an additional wound with no saves allowed. If a Daemonic unit is wiped out by instability in the first round of combat the enemy may overrun as normal.
7th: When losing combat roll 2D6, add in combat modifiers. For each point the unit fails by the unit suffers an additional wound with no saves allowed. Each unit involved in combat must test individually, Battle Standards give rerolls (if within 12"), stubborn units can roll on leadership value without penalties.
Change: The unit can't be instantly destroyed by one bad combat, but loses models the same way. It makes up for the fact that the army can't take non-Daemons and would fall apart since they don't have the way of regenerating models like Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings do.

Immune to Psychology
6th: Had it as a rule
7th: No change
Change: None.

Daemonic Aura
6th: Grants a 5+ Ward Save (can't be used vs magic attacks)
7th: Grants a 5+ Ward Save
Change: Daemons lost their automatic access to armour so the ability to take Ward Saves against everything keeps them from getting blown off the table if they'd kept the old restriction

Daemonic Attacks
6th: All attacks are magical
7th: All attacks are magical
Change: None

Fear
6th: Daemons cause Fear
7th: Daemons cause Fear
Change: None

So from a core rules standpoint the only changes to Daemons made them more durable since they have no way of recouping casualties like other armies who use similar mechanics (Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings).

I can keep going but the point is out of the 5 special rules the Daemons army has Ward adjusted 2, and only by removing some minor points to make the rules better support the army. Honestly I can't see anything wrong with this as it means the army doesn't just up and crumple because of magic templates, cannons or a bad set of rolls in combat. None of these changes actually breaks the army since it can't take non-Daemons (something HoC had as an option that would help balance out the the instability of Daemons) and can't regenerated dead models (like Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings can). 6th Ed's Daemonic Instability was frankly not viable to support a pure Daemon army with. It's not broken because it still has penalties despite the small bonuses (you still take extra wounds, the average Ld in the army is 7 which is down from 6th Edition, making it easier to hurt the Daemons, and the Daemons who had armour lost it outside of the Daemonic Heroes/Lords who have it/can purchase it).

Alright, let's look at the Bloodletters again (not going to relist the core rules from above but they all apply):

6th Edtion: M4/WS5/BS0/S5/T3/W1/I4/A1/Ld8, Equipment: Light Armour, Special Rules: Magic Resistance (1), Frenzy, Starting Cost: 160/10
7th Edition: M5/WS5/BS0/S5/T3/W1/I4/A1/Ld7, Equipment: Hellblade (Handweapon), Special Rules: Magic Resistance (1), Killing Blow, Starting Cost 120/10

Changes: Well first we need to look at how many models the models kill in a typical round of combat. Since the minimum unit size is 10 that's what I'll be comparing them to. The baseline unit is going to be a block of 10 Empire Swordsmen. I will use no upgrades and will just calculate straight wounding potential of the unit (I don't have the 6th or 7th Edition rules handy so I can't verify how many models are killed, someone would have to fill me in how many would be killed, and if there were additional bonus attacks I didn't account for here), and for the sake of fairness to the Swordsmen I'm assuming they passed their Fear check.
6th Edition: 10 Attacks Base + Frenzy (gives +1 attack each)(I don't have the rulebook in front of me so I can't verify if there were other rules for the combat) = 20 attacks at WS5/S5 = 11 Wounds generated.
7th Edition: 10 Attacks base = 10 Attacks at WS5/S5 with Killing Blow = 5.556 Wounds (with 1 being from Killing Blow).

So 6th Edition actually had Bloodletters who were more capable at killing models enmasse because of Frenzy and the extra attacks it gave (even if it was on the first round of combat only that's still 5-6 more wounds average straight up). I think the drop of 4 points a model is a bit more justified even with the increased movement (getting them across the board faster because they'll suffer from enemy magic and enemy shooting along the way which is important when your opponent outnumbers you) and the drop of 1 point of courage means that by making the Daemons lose combat they were actually more likely to lose models (even if the whole unit didn't vanish). Without the rest of the rules to work out if people got armour saves, or bonus attacks on the charge it's clear from the statline and the Frenzy Rule (as it was used in 6th) that Bloodletters actually became -less- killy overall.

And Bloodletters had Light Armour AND a 5+ Ward Save in 6th. I don't know how that would stack in the older editions but in 8th that's a 6+ followed by a 5+ against anything S3 or less. That makes the old Bloodletters less likely to take wounds against S3 enemy units (assuming the rule hasn't changed of course).

So how about those Flamers you were complaining about?

Yes Ward changed the way the only shooting unit in the Daemon army worked by making it a seperate unit (which was restricted to a 0-1 (in games of 2,000 points or less) Rare slot in 6th meaning that you could have 3-6 of them period in your average game). He also made them more expensive and put the only shooting unit in the entire army in the same slot as Bloodcrushers (who I've heard to be more popular), Beasts of Nurgle (was better in 7th last I heard), and Fiends of Slannesh (who I've never heard anyone talk about).

On top of this their stat line between the books changed. They became less powerful in combat (S3, not 4), became more likely to be hurt by Daemonic Instability (Ld7, not 8) and while the shooting attack got better (18", not 8" and S4, not 3), it was still the only one in the book (outside of magic), and still counted as being magical (so Magic Resistance gave extra protection against it).

So he made them useful and then made people pick between one thing or another and then capped them at a small unit size to ensure that even if someone did get a lot of lucky rolls they couldn't do too much damage (on a REALLY good set of rolls you could shoot 54 shots....if you took 9 Flamers (315 points) and rolled all 6s. At 315 points for a 9 unit short range shooting unit you were more likely do to 27 shots. For the same cost you could by 52 Briettonnian Peasant Bowmen (312 points) who were Core choices and had 30" bows (almost double the distance of the Flamers) and come with free Defensive Stakes (no bonuses to charge the unit). Almost the same number of shots, more consistently since your number of shots was more directly related to the number of models in your units and with 34 more wounds than the Flamers).

So I'm going to have to say that at least from an outsider's perspective the Flamers weren't that broken either. They put out roughly the same number of shots for cost (and usually less), had a less effective range than a unit that could have more models, meaning they had to get closer and would get only a turn or two of shooting at best if they didn't have the ability to move, and had less wounds overall.

I know I didn't play in 7th, so I don't have all the rules available, nor do I have the ones for 6th, but the more I look the more it looks like Ward did an okay job making Daemons a force that wasn't a wash to take while making them a little more balanced overall. But again, I'm an outsider on this so maybe I just have the little extra room to see it that way.

Experiment 626 wrote:



Ward deserves the dislike he gets because more so than the other authors, he either invalidates people's army/s by making OTT rules, (ie: Daemons or Tyranids vs GK's), or else he ruins the game itself (Daemons in 7th & Undead in 8th before their new books).

Kelly may have goofed with SW's. But SW's didn't invalidate any other army or break the game. At their release, SM's/Orks & Daemons could hang with them pretty evenly, while IG/BA's/DE came out around the same power level, and GK's were a giant leap ahead of 'em.

Cruddace's Tyranids may have been behind the curve, but they still had a gimmick or two and they've gained a good bit in 6th. IG on the other hand were and still are a top contending army, but again, they didn't cause people with army 'X'/'Y'/'Z' to shelve their entire force!

Ward? SM's was solid. BA's gave vanilla players cause for butthurt and had a few OTT units, (Mephy & Baal Preds). GK's forced every Tyranid & Daemon player to quite their armies and shelve them...

Because Dark Eldar Venom Spam was perfectly balanced against Tyranids and MC's

GK's forced every Tyranid & Daemon player to quite their armies and shelve them...

As a Tyranid player, I would much prefer you be angry at Phil Kelly on my behalf.

If you'll allow me to rant for a moment...

Frickin' Jaws of the World Wolf and frickin' Venom Spam made for the worst frickin' games in Fifth Edition.

I don't see why everyone has such a hard-on for C: DE. They owed their brief flirtation with tournament respectability to a favorable matchup with the power build du jour (they could wipe a couple Long Fang squads off the board on turn 1 with massed Venoms), and their day in the sun was over long before the edition change, with their pathetic anti-tank capability unable to overcame vehicle-mounted, stun-resistant fire support. The fact is they couldn't kill psyfledreads, psybacks, night scythes, or annihilation barges, and thanks to Fortitude/Living Metal they couldn't shake or stun them, and their stupid paper planes got blown out of the sky and their stupid T3/5+ troops got gunned down like the pansies they were. And now that it's 6th edition and glances don't shake/stun anymore, it happens against all the armies and not just Necrons/GKs. Glass cannon? More like glass pea shooter, amirite!?

And you know what, I laughed! Because the only thing worse than playing against DE with a foot army in 5th was playing against DE in 5th with a foot army where some of your units - and all of the anti-tank ones! - were T6. They literally just sat 36" away and rolled dice. At least sometimes a Rune Priest would Perils before casting Jaws.

On the topic of fluff, I enjoyed Inquisitor Valeria's. And Trazyn the Infinite's. I like that the new Necrons are more customizable, but hate that the Deceiver is dead now. And I will say that I wish Cruddace would have taken a page out of Ward's book and had the Tyranids win a battle or two in their own 'dex.

I have a hard time being angry about 40k fluff. It is, by design, nay, by definition, stupid. I mean, come on. Just look at the names of the Primarchs. This is a universe where there's a guy named Angron, and, (spoiler!), he's angry! A guy named Ferrus Manus who (hurr!) has hands made out of metal! A guy named Conrad Kurze with a heart of darkness (okay, maybe this one's a little more obscure). A guy named Lion El'Jonson (this one's not so much obvious as remarkable in that they managed, by adding spaces and punctuation, to turn the name of a British poet into something that sounds like a Mexican-American porn star's nom de guerre). This is a universe where the supposed precognitive genius balancing the survival of humanity on a knife-edge not only failed to spot the seeds of betrayal in Kor Phaeron with his massive telepathic POWAH (but totally figured out that Magnus made a bargain with Tzeentch using same), but somehow managed to make the much larger, macro-scale mistake of entrusting his Paradise of Atheist Rationality to a bunch of psychopathically violent prima donnas, tradition-obsessed to the point of religiosity (putative disbelief in Gods notwithstanding), that he apparently designed to be that way.

40k fluff regularly sacrifices intelligence on the altar of the Rule of Cool, and, you know what, Draigo and Mephiston sound like pretty raw mother-F-ers.

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

This is by far his most endearing quality.

"So why did you make Daemons so powerful?"
"It'd be a shame if they weren't."

You uh. You really have a hard-on for that quote, don't ya.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:


@ Zweischneid
GK have a Psyker level system as well as rules that function better in 6th than in 5th, all implemented in 6th edition, and Necrons have special rules in the codex not even in 5th edition rule book.

Dark Eldar were probably finished when work started on the GK and 6th Edition development probably started around that time too, so things could easily be carried into 6th from GK. In other words it was done with 6th in mind not based on 6th.

In your mind CSM isn't a 6th edition codex? But its the only actual codex released since 6th came out... that points to Ward's codexes being OP (yes, I know, GK aren't as OP as they were) as his codexes are still top tiers while an actual 6th codex enters at a mid-tier level. So either his codexes are OP, or they were geared with 6th in mind so as to maintain their life span into 6th.

Still a question of cause and effect. If Grey Knights had a brilliant new take on psykers, it might as much have inspired the 6th Edition rules as vice versa, especially if, as noted, the release difference between Dark Eldar and Grey Knights was around 12 weeks or so, including Christmas. I doubt they launched major rule effort in that time.

And GK never were half as "OP" as.. for example, Space Wolves or pre-GK Imperial Guard, even if a few units might've been underpriced (e.g. Psyflemen). But by nicking IG+Daemonhunter allies shenanigans alone, GK made the game about a gazillion times more balanced.

ClockworkZion wrote:
*lots of stuff*

...I know I didn't play in 7th, so I don't have all the rules available, nor do I have the ones for 6th, but the more I look the more it looks like Ward did an okay job making Daemons a force that wasn't a wash to take while making them a little more balanced overall. But again, I'm an outsider on this so maybe I just have the little extra room to see it that way.

If you didn't play the game AND you don't know the rules and how they interacted, then you can have no actual concept of how broken Daemons were.

For example, comparing the damage output of 6th vs 7th edition Bloodletters against Empire Swordsmen?! Empire were a gunline army - you rarely saw units like halberdiers or swordsmen outside of detachments because spearmen were better suited to how the game played.
Try looking at a more common combat, like Bloodletters vs heavy cav of any flavour, or Bloodletters vs Greatswords/Blackguard/Swordmasters/White Lions/etc... since those units were far more common.

For their cost, Bloodletters are still one of the best Core units in the game. All Daemonic Core was likely at least a point or two undercosted in 7th.


As for Flamers?! No one took Bloodcrushers after a few months because the unit was too unwieldy to manouver properly at the time and they were insanely expensive. Beasts were over-costed and Fiends couldn't reach the sheer killing power of Flamers.
Being M6 Skirmishers, (ie: basically no movement restrictions, can march and fire!), made them arguably the best unit in the game. You could have 2 units of them at 2000pts, thus giving you a max of 12 per army. (most Tournaments after a short while either limited you to 0-1 or else placed a restriction on the total number you could take)

Other Skirmishing units overall were very, very weak in combat with the main exceptions of VC Wraiths (who were a combat unit), and DE Shades (who became a Deathstar of sorts since they could take great weapons + BSB w/ASF banner!), but Flamers?!
*IF* you survived their 'Stand and Shoot' reaction, you then suddenly ended up facing WS2/S5/T4/W2/A2 nasties! So unless you were charging with a WS5 unit, they'd typically hit you back as hard as you hit them! And with two wounds apiece, it was very, very difficult to remove more than a couple, meaning they'd almost certainly get some swings in return.

And consider what you'd normally send after Skirmishers; Fast Cav, small units of heavy cav, your own skirmishers, warbeasts like dogs/eagles, etc... In other words, lighter units because they were either speedy and/or easier to manouver than your main blocks.
Flamers could fight most of that, or else blow if off the board with their insane shooting.



Daemons in 7th turned the game on its head in a bad way. No game against Daemons was fun, and most armies couldn't even begin to compete, especially against the 'Tournament' lists Daemons could put up.
Filth like;
- Dark Insanity 'Thirster + max Flamers
- 20+ power dice Tzeentch armies.
- Slaanesh 'Ld-bomb'
- Anything with max Flamers!

 Zweischneid wrote:

Still a question of cause and effect. If Grey Knights had a brilliant new take on psykers, it might as much have inspired the 6th Edition rules as vice versa, especially if, as noted, the release difference between Dark Eldar and Grey Knights was around 12 weeks or so, including Christmas. I doubt they launched major rule effort in that time.

And GK never were half as "OP" as.. for example, Space Wolves or pre-GK Imperial Guard, even if a few units might've been underpriced (e.g. Psyflemen). But by nicking IG+Daemonhunter allies shenanigans alone, GK made the game about a gazillion times more balanced.

GW are constantly working out the kinks of their games, and as I had said it may have been done with 6th in mind. Just because they work on projects at one time doesn't mean they are constantly on them. Projects can be picked up and put down as the market requires them. Development likely started quite a long time ago, but it doesn't have to be a 'major' effort by that I mean the whole studio doesn't get involved until the ground work is already laid out.

If the game is designed around having fun, tell me whats fun about warp quaking the entire battlefield in turn 1? Fun for either player?
And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?) with some ridiculous abilities added into the mix like S5 Storm Bolters... thats heavy weapon equivilant in other armies... take a psyker test when I die and kill your 350pt DP outright... or take a psyker test and I can shoot anything in range even if I can't see it.... Its just ridiculous

Experiment 626 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
*lots of stuff*

...I know I didn't play in 7th, so I don't have all the rules available, nor do I have the ones for 6th, but the more I look the more it looks like Ward did an okay job making Daemons a force that wasn't a wash to take while making them a little more balanced overall. But again, I'm an outsider on this so maybe I just have the little extra room to see it that way.

If you didn't play the game AND you don't know the rules and how they interacted, then you can have no actual concept of how broken Daemons were.

For example, comparing the damage output of 6th vs 7th edition Bloodletters against Empire Swordsmen?! Empire were a gunline army - you rarely saw units like halberdiers or swordsmen outside of detachments because spearmen were better suited to how the game played.
Try looking at a more common combat, like Bloodletters vs heavy cav of any flavour, or Bloodletters vs Greatswords/Blackguard/Swordmasters/White Lions/etc... since those units were far more common.

I used Swordsmen because they have pretty much the most middle of the road statline (being mostly 3s, as it was pointed out that that 3s are the baseline of Fantasy), making them about the closest thing to a yardstick we got. And if we want to look at heavy armour, fine, the point still remains that the 6th Edition Bloodletters would do more attacks on the charge and generate more wounds. The newer ones would just manage to get 1-2 extra ones through thanks to killing blow to make up for the lost of Frenzy since the charge makes or breaks the unit.

Honestly I could have done this with any unit and the result would have been about the same. Having double the number of attacks gave the 6th Edition ones more chances to wound in that first round of combat.

And you're right, I didn't play then so I can't really know, but at the same time I'm also not tied down by my feelings about these books allowing me to be a little more objective than most.

Experiment 626 wrote:
For their cost, Bloodletters are still one of the best Core units in the game. All Daemonic Core was likely at least a point or two undercosted in 7th.

You might be right, but 1-2 points undercosting doesn't make or break the game. And with the complaints I usually see you'd think that they were 5-10 points undercosted.

Experiment 626 wrote:
As for Flamers?! No one took Bloodcrushers after a few months because the unit was too unwieldy to manouver properly at the time and they were insanely expensive. Beasts were over-costed and Fiends couldn't reach the sheer killing power of Flamers.

Maybe they only came back in 8th, but I remember seeing people advocate Bloodcrushers. And let's not start generalizing by saing "no one". Someone will always take that unit that "no one" takes because of theme or personal interest.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Being M6 Skirmishers, (ie: basically no movement restrictions, can march and fire!), made them arguably the best unit in the game. You could have 2 units of them at 2000pts, thus giving you a max of 12 per army. (most Tournaments after a short while either limited you to 0-1 or else placed a restriction on the total number you could take)

I've got their rulebook in my hands, and you're right, at 2k you could take 2 units of them, but seeing as the golden standard I've seen for Fantasy has always been upheld as 1,500-1,750 due to the size of the games and the model count, that seems less of an issue for your average player. And even if it was, there were still ways to deal with them as the other players also had the same number of slots to work with and would be taking what they wanted out of the codex.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Other Skirmishing units overall were very, very weak in combat with the main exceptions of VC Wraiths (who were a combat unit), and DE Shades (who became a Deathstar of sorts since they could take great weapons + BSB w/ASF banner!), but Flamers?!
*IF* you survived their 'Stand and Shoot' reaction, you then suddenly ended up facing WS2/S5/T4/W2/A2 nasties! So unless you were charging with a WS5 unit, they'd typically hit you back as hard as you hit them! And with two wounds apiece, it was very, very difficult to remove more than a couple, meaning they'd almost certainly get some swings in return.

I don't play a lot of fantasy, but honestly it sounds like people where aiming the wrong things at Flamers if this was a regular problem. Having access to slightly worse, but more numerous archers means most armies can engage them at a longer range, and those who can't (Dwarves, Skaven) have Warmachines that help.

And if Fantasy is supposibly the more tactical game (as I've heard claimed in the past many, many times) then shouldn't the concept of charging with a cheap squishy unit and then hitting the side or rear arc of the Flamers with something else that's harder do the job if they're that bad?

Experiment 626 wrote:
And consider what you'd normally send after Skirmishers; Fast Cav, small units of heavy cav, your own skirmishers, warbeasts like dogs/eagles, etc... In other words, lighter units because they were either speedy and/or easier to manouver than your main blocks.
Flamers could fight most of that, or else blow if off the board with their insane shooting.

So what your saying is people adapted poorly too the Daemons book and blame it instead a lack of flexibility and adjusting of tactics? Seriously what it sounds like to me. In a game where there are changes occurring all the time to who is "best". This is common, it's up to the player base to learn to adapt.

And as I pointed out before, a Magic Resistance banner helps those heavy cav units (as most can get one) since the shots are magical it gives you a ward save to help reduce those wounds a little more (3+ Heavy Cav save becomes 4+, stack with MR 2 gets you a 4+ followed by a 5+ ward to survive the S4 shots, unless your dice were gak you'd survive the shooting pretty well).

Wargames are about adapting, learning and growing. If you can't do that then you really need to sit back and look at what's really wrong with the game and then see if maybe the problem is yourself.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Daemons in 7th turned the game on its head in a bad way. No game against Daemons was fun, and most armies couldn't even begin to compete, especially against the 'Tournament' lists Daemons could put up.
Filth like;
- Dark Insanity 'Thirster + max Flamers
- 20+ power dice Tzeentch armies.
- Slaanesh 'Ld-bomb'
- Anything with max Flamers!

You obviously have too much emotion and negative nostalgia invested into this to truly be objective about the Daemons. I admit I've got about as much invested in Daemons as a banana (thus making my points basically worthless because "I wasn't there" and "I couldn't know") but there are a lot of problems with people who fail to step back, put their emotions aside and really look at what's being brought to the table.

As I pointed out before, 9 Flamers costed 315 points. 18 (or max flamers) cost 650. Are you honestly saying that something that's nearly a third of the army list's total cost at 2,000 points (32.5%) shouldn't be somewhat durable, and a little good? On paper a unit of Flamers looks fine, maybe your anger should be focused more on the kinds of people who ran the lists you call "filth", because if they where cheesy-neckbreads then it didn't matter what the army book was, they'd eskew fun for wins almost everytime.

This post illustrates two problems I've had trying to get into Fantasy:
1. The online community in general for Fantasy frankly sucks. Most of the folks who I run into who've been around "for a minute" dismisses the statements of newer players, or people less familiar with the rules. Just because I don't have copy of the 6th and 7th edition core rulebooks sitting in my hands right now it doesn't mean that I'm wrong. I can still sit down with the books and look at them and see the differences and even understand why the changes worked the way they did. But you write off my ability to think clearly, rationally and even evaluatively based on my level of experience with the game. That's no bueno.
2. You can't even look at half the armies in Fantasy without someone getting pissed off. Heaven forbid that you might want to play Daemons because you like Chaos and you didn't know about their nonsense, or that you like Skaven or whatever it is people are bitching about this month. Some of us want to play to have fun, to enjoy a game with their friends. It's not all about crushing our opponent's armies with super-optimized builds.

And that goes for 40k too. We can sit here all day blaming an army, but at the end of the day it's a book and some plastic. It didn't play itself and grind your army off the table. Bad dice rolls, an opponent who knows how to super-optimize his options, or just plays better than you, or a hundred other things did. But the army itself is just an army. It's just a means of playing a game.

And that's my problem with a lot of the Ward hate. We've got people jumping up and down and daemonizing the man for doing his job. Doing his job so well apparently that he updated both Fantasy and 40k since he's starting working there, and released over half of the 40k codex books in the last edition alone. GW likes what he does, and thinks it's fine. Hell, there isn't anything that goes to print that doesn't get approved first. It's not like Ward sneaks into where the printing is done and changes the books before they are started for crying out loud.

So here's where I stand at the end of this:
1. Ward may not be the most social guy (apparently), but he gets gak done. And at the end of the day he does an okay job at it. He's one of the stronger writers GW's had in the last decade I think and his books aren't any more prone to power-building BS than anyone else's (see Chaos Marines 3.5, Eldar during 4th, Leafblower during 5th, Venom Spam Dark Eldar during 5th, Longfang Spam during 5th.....seriously, these are all things people have bitch about that -aren't- Ward's fault).
2. While people don't like his fluff, I don't think it's the worst thing ever. If anyone wants Blood Angels fluff that makes Ward look good, go read James Swallows Blood Angels books. He's gotten better since then, but his early work was rough. And really, as a rule of thumb, the fluff can -always- be better.
3. The internet takes things way to personally, way to seriously and doesn't like accepting that maybe their just to inflexible and refusing to change. Like I said before: everyone wants better rules until it somehow hurts them. This goes for your army shifting to a different dynamic because of an edition change, to the other guy's army getting less gak with an update.
4. If Ward really broke the game with Daemons in 7th GW would have fixed it. And I mean for much cheaper than writing a new edition to unfuck the mess (seen that claim) or randomly upgrading all the other armies (seen that claim too). Obviously though they didn't think Daemons were off the mark, and had written the VC who came out before, and the books that came out after based on where they were looking at taking the game at the time. Now they're looking at taking the game elsewhere, starting with toning down the armies who can go "lulz, magic".
5. I refuse to agree with anyone who feels that they need to try and act like someone is basically Hitler because of the work they've done to a game system. This stuff isn't that serious, even with a monetary investment in it, and honestly if you're getting this bent out of shape about things you might need to learn some perspective. And maybe how to step back and look at the strengths and weaknesses of other armies so you can adapt your army a bit. The game is constantly changing, and honestly that means that sometimes your army will have to change too. If you don't like it, I heard that checkers has a good ruleset that hasn't changed in basically forever.

And so I'm out. I'm not going to keep trying to talk to people who are going to be this angry about everything just because someone's name is attached to it. You all have fun arguing. I'm going to go find something that better fills my time.

Oh, and just for the record: I play Sisters of Battle. My little WD codex curb-stomps those supposed "Marine+1" Blood Angels (and just about every other flavour of Marine). Where does it suffer? Versus horde armies like Orks, Nids and Foot Guard. All Cruddace and Kelly books. So there you go, I'm not defending Ward because of the army I play, but because the accusations being levelled at him have reached the point of being too unreasonable.

EDIT: I hit post and saw this so I just wanted to address these points really quick:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

If the game is designed around having fun, tell me whats fun about warp quaking the entire battlefield in turn 1? Fun for either player?
And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?) with some ridiculous abilities added into the mix like S5 Storm Bolters... thats heavy weapon equivilant in other armies... take a psyker test when I die and kill your 350pt DP outright... or take a psyker test and I can shoot anything in range even if I can't see it.... Its just ridiculous

Can you tell me where the game tells you that you should Warp Quake the entire battlefield? And the units that have Warp Quake are PA Marines with no Invunerable Save. Are you saying your list has now way to kill standard Marines at range? Seriously, fun is left up to the players, it's up to us how to use the things we're given to play the game in a way that's fun for us, not up to GW to make us do it.
Grey Knights are not really underpriced. They have access to very little in their entire book that works outside of 24", have to get across the board without dying, can't reserve more than half their army due to the new reserve rules (no Drop Pods!), and have very little that can handle heavy tanks. Their lower than you'd expect points cost is to balance out the negatives they have. Yes they have strong points, but things like the Psycannon cause things to get pretty expensive (Terminator with a Psycannon costs 65 points for a 1 wound model that can now be sniped out of the unit).
Tau have S5 on almost all of their basic weapons. They can make these BS5 with Markerlights. They can also bring a LOT more of these to the game than Grey Knights can bring Storm Bolters, and have better range on their Pulse Rifle. S5, BS4 doesn't seem that unreasonable when you consider that in a 10 Terminator squad you'd tacking it on for 2 points a piece (this is assuming everyone has Storm Bolters, if they don't then it's more like 2.5 points per model). And if you just take a small unit of 5 that cost becomes 4 points a model. So 42-44 points for a Terminator with an S5 gun?
And that psychic test to shoot things grants an automatic 4+ cover save. That's now better than the basic cover save. And how many people really take those guys over Psyrifle Dreads (aka the army's only real anti-tank option outside of some of the Henchmen options and allies)?
Oh and even the Power Armoured Grey Knights will be outnumbered by everyone else as it costs them 200 points to field a 10 man unit -before- they start taking options.

Yeah.....-really- broken by itself. Grey Knights are a well rounded force with serious strengths (that they pay out the nose for) and weaknesses (that can outright cripple them). Quit blaming a book for your inability to cope with changes and opponents who where cheesing it up for the sake of trolling people.

Seriously, perspective people. A book and some plastic didn't kill your dog so stop acting like it did.

ClockworkZion wrote:

I used Swordsmen because they have pretty much the most middle of the road statline (being mostly 3s, as it was pointed out that that 3s are the baseline of Fantasy), making them about the closest thing to a yardstick we got. And if we want to look at heavy armour, fine, the point still remains that the 6th Edition Bloodletters would do more attacks on the charge and generate more wounds. The newer ones would just manage to get 1-2 extra ones through thanks to killing blow to make up for the lost of Frenzy since the charge makes or breaks the unit.

Honestly I could have done this with any unit and the result would have been about the same. Having double the number of attacks gave the 6th Edition ones more chances to wound in that first round of combat.

And you're right, I didn't play then so I can't really know, but at the same time I'm also not tied down by my feelings about these books allowing me to be a little more objective than most.

You might be right, but 1-2 points undercosting doesn't make or break the game. And with the complaints I usually see you'd think that they were 5-10 points undercosted.

You're forgetting to consider how bad Frenzy was in 6th; If an enemy unit was within charge range of the Frenzied unit, it MUST declare a charge.
So what ended up happening was, the M4 Bloodletters would be pulled out into the open by something like Fast Cav or a throw-away unit like Hounds who would chose 'Flee' as their charge reaction. Those 'Letters would then sit around like idiots and get charged in return, thus reducing the number of the them who eveh get to strike and almost certainly lose the combat.

Bloodletteres were poop in 6th just like every other non-M6 or better Frenzied unit.
7th they became OTT because not only did they lose the double-edged Frenzy rule, but gained +1M (giving them the charge more often) and Killing Blow AND dropped in cost.

Most Daemons players who actually played 7th would agree that Bloodletters should have been costed around 14-16pts/model for their abilities. (inlcuding the game-breaking Fear mechanic) Bloodletters in 7th were pretty much on par with basic Chaos Warriors in terms of their abilities, since you traded better armour for a ward save and initiative-striking S5. (most units with S5 either lost out on shields and/or required Great Weapons which struck last, or needed 'must charge' bonuses from the likes of Lances. S5 in Fantasy is the 'magical strength')

Now in 8th with the basic changes to charging & combat itself, Bloodletters might be just a point or so undercosted. There's a damn good reason that units of 40 still eyerape most enemies!

ClockworkZion wrote:
I've got their rulebook in my hands, and you're right, at 2k you could take 2 units of them, but seeing as the golden standard I've seen for Fantasy has always been upheld as 1,500-1,750 due to the size of the games and the model count, that seems less of an issue for your average player. And even if it was, there were still ways to deal with them as the other players also had the same number of slots to work with and would be taking what they wanted out of the codex.

I don't play a lot of fantasy, but honestly it sounds like people where aiming the wrong things at Flamers if this was a regular problem. Having access to slightly worse, but more numerous archers means most armies can engage them at a longer range, and those who can't (Dwarves, Skaven) have Warmachines that help.

And if Fantasy is supposibly the more tactical game (as I've heard claimed in the past many, many times) then shouldn't the concept of charging with a cheap squishy unit and then hitting the side or rear arc of the Flamers with something else that's harder do the job if they're that bad?

Spoken like someone who never actually played a game of 7th...

Most Tournaments were 2k standard, so yes, you routinely saw multiple units of Flamers. (And outside of 'Ard Boyz, most Tournaments put additional limits on the buggers)

Aiming the wrong things at Flamers?! You do realise that it was almost impossible to charge Flamers with your block units, yes? Perhaps if you somehow managed to trap them with 2-3 of your own blocks you might get the charge on them... (and in the meantime open yourself up to multiple flank/rear charges in return! )
Flamers are Skirmish type units. They get infinite 'free' reforms as they move (ie: they don't sacrifice any movement). This allowed them to pretty much work like a 40k unit in a game of squares, allowing them to easily slip between opponents' blocked units and thus remain out of sight. They can 'March and Fire', meaning they could move 12" and shoot to full effect. Being in the lose 'skirmish formation' also ment they were harder to hit in return with missile fire. War Machines like cannons or bolt throwers sucked against them because you'd hit only 1-2 models. (and Elven repeater bolt throwers simply missed most of their shots outright!)

In 6th & 7th, you delt with Skirmishers by chasing them with Fast Cavalry (who enjoyed the same movement/shooting perks as Skirmishers), or hitting them Magic Missiles, or sending small units of Heavy Cav to grind them down, or a flying Hero to chop them up, or your own Skirmishers or harder-hitting cheap units like Warhounds/Harpies.
Skirmishers by design were ment to avoid and harrasse full on blocks. You didn't want to ever bring your main blocks into combat with Skirmishers, because it left you wide open to a flank charge in return. (or else sent your unit running off in the wrong direction...)

Most Skirmishers weren't a huge problem because the available counters worked... Except with Flamers!
They could fight off most anything you'd normally counter a similar unit with, and they could even take on a high portion of Core units because their stats were insane. Not to mention, their 'Stand and Shoot' charge reaction could cripple even full unit blocks! (and simply outright explode most things that would want to charge them...)
And shooting them instead? Sure, if you wanted waste all your archers who'd on average be trying to hit them at a -2 to-hit penalty... (BS4 Elves for needed on average 5's to-hit then 5's to-wound. Sure, that'll work. )
And keep in mind not every army has missile fire. VC's, Beastmen & WoC have little to no shooting.

ClockworkZion wrote:
So what your saying is people adapted poorly too the Daemons book and blame it instead a lack of flexibility and adjusting of tactics? Seriously what it sounds like to me. In a game where there are changes occurring all the time to who is "best". This is common, it's up to the player base to learn to adapt.

And as I pointed out before, a Magic Resistance banner helps those heavy cav units (as most can get one) since the shots are magical it gives you a ward save to help reduce those wounds a little more (3+ Heavy Cav save becomes 4+, stack with MR 2 gets you a 4+ followed by a 5+ ward to survive the S4 shots, unless your dice were gak you'd survive the shooting pretty well).

Wargames are about adapting, learning and growing. If you can't do that then you really need to sit back and look at what's really wrong with the game and then see if maybe the problem is yourself.

Magic Resistance works on Magic Spells - not shooting! Just because a close combat attack or shooting attack has the "Magical Attacks" rule, does not make it Magic Spell!
So no, having MR does piss-all against Flamers because they're not chucking spells at you, their Flames of Tzeentch is simply a shooting attack that can also for example hurt 'Ethereal' models.

So far you're saying that pretty much every single non-Daemon player just sucked or wasn't that good at Fantasy. In truth, the few armies that could *almost* compete with Daemons required tailored lists of their own filthiest cheese to do so;
- VC's played pts denial with their token 'Drakenhof Guard' Deathstar and hid behind masses of Invo-spamming. And all their Etereal units are 100% useless vs Daemons.
- Skaven went back into their SAD mode and tried to blast everything to bits. (including those poor Slaves!)
- DE's turned to double Hydras + 'Unkillable Dreadlord' build + Shade-spam.
- WoC brought out their Tzeentch Chosenstar and again, went for the pts denial game. (MoT+Eye of the Gods + double Warshrine to try and get the Stubborn + Ward save result, then add Festus for added Regen!)
- Lizzies went into their own Deathstar mode with a pimped-out Slaan in his large Temple Guard block + max Skirmishing Skinks.

Everyone else cried!!!
Daemons in 7th were best because every single unit was OTT. Then they got insane upgrades to go along with undercosted units and godly stats.

Or look at it this way, so far you're the only one trying to say 7th ed Daemons were not an OP pile of the steamiest cheddar!
Seriously, go ask to play a game of 7th against a 'typical' 2k Daemon list and just see how much 'fun' and how 'tactical' a game it really wasn't...

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?) with some ridiculous abilities added into the mix like S5 Storm Bolters... thats heavy weapon equivilant in other armies... take a psyker test when I die and kill your 350pt DP outright... or take a psyker test and I can shoot anything in range even if I can't see it.... Its just ridiculous

How are Purifiers, Draigo and, of all things, Brotherhood Champions undercosted? How are Purgation Squads, that hardly anyone uses, "ridiculous"?

Also, Grey Hunters and (arguably) Rune Priests most certainly are underpriced as well, so it's not just one unit.

Oh god, this will not end well...

Anyway, I believe it came from the apparently abstract work in some recent codexes, i.e. Grey Knights, Blood Angels.

ClockworkZion wrote:
And that's my problem with a lot of the Ward hate. We've got people jumping up and down and daemonizing the man for doing his job. Doing his job so well apparently that he updated both Fantasy and 40k since he's starting working there, and released over half of the 40k codex books in the last edition alone. GW likes what he does, and thinks it's fine.

That says exactly nothing about the quality of his rules or fluff.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Seriously, perspective people. A book and some plastic didn't kill your dog so stop acting like it did.

Nice fallacy there, "your complaints are not valid because the subject is not important". The game is expensive and time consuming, people invested thousands of dollars/ quid/ sth, the guy spoils it or at times even breaks it and is boorish enough to be shameless about it, seriously perspective.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

If the game is designed around having fun, tell me whats fun about warp quaking the entire battlefield in turn 1? Fun for either player?
And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?) with some ridiculous abilities added into the mix like S5 Storm Bolters... thats heavy weapon equivilant in other armies... take a psyker test when I die and kill your 350pt DP outright... or take a psyker test and I can shoot anything in range even if I can't see it.... Its just ridiculous

Sorry, but playing against Grey Knights is fun. They tend to move up mid-field, there is (Draigo-Wing excluded, which is mainly a low-model starters-army that GW's been missing for a long, long time) a great variety of different units that respond differently to different attacks. There's shooting, cc and generally a fun scrap to be had in ever single game I ever played against Grey Knights.

Not so with Space Wolves. They don't play the "game", they play the "meta-game", which is always boring (as it was true for 5th Edition Eldar null-deployment or Ork-Nob Wound-Allocation-Abuse-lists). Wolves hog the far table-edge and spam an endless repetition of Long-Fangs, JoTWW and Las-Plas Razorbacks. Never has any Space Wolves opponent I played even cared about positioning, as it's no difference to them whether the charge or get charged (again, making them the most passive of armies CC-wise, which seems like an incredibly stupid game-design-decision for .. Space Wolves!).

If the goal is to have "fun", I play against a Grey Knight army over a Space Wolves army any day.

And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?)

One under priced unit? Space wolves has a whole swath of underpriced units as well as cheap wargear. Purifiers are actually costed okay, it's their wargear that's undercosted (same with the psyflemen), and the brotherhood champion is useless, not sure why you mentioned it, and the dreadknight is okay priced with some expensive wargear, Draigo is also priced right, it's just the paladins were perfect at the points denial of the 5th edition system.

Sorry, but playing against Grey Knights is fun. They tend to move up mid-field, there is (Draigo-Wing excluded, which is mainly a low-model starters-army that GW's been missing for a long, long time) a great variety of different units that respond differently to different attacks. There's shooting, cc and generally a fun scrap to be had in ever single game I ever played against Grey Knights.

Not so with Space Wolves. They don't play the "game", they play the "meta-game", which is always boring (as it was true for 5th Edition Eldar null-deployment or Ork-Nob Wound-Allocation-Abuse-lists). Wolves hog the far table-edge and spam an endless repetition of Long-Fangs, JoTWW and Las-Plas Razorbacks. Never has any Space Wolves opponent I played even cared about positioning, as it's no difference to them whether the charge or get charged (again, making them the most passive of armies CC-wise, which seems like an incredibly stupid game-design-decision for .. Space Wolves!).

Have to disagree.From my experience,space wolves were considered a top tier army just because they could control the mid field due to the sheer amounts of grey hunters(and ofc longfangs who got nerfed in this edition).If your opponents were static players thats not the codex problem and spamming the best units is what makes a competitive list.Gk are no exception to that rule.My regular opponent was spamming psydreads and purifiers, just because they were the best units in the codex and he didnt want to spam something as boring as three henchmen in a psyback ,and i always found our games to be fun ,but claiming that Gks dont play the meta-game is just bs(always talking about 5th ed,in 6th there is no actual meta right now).

I am gonna agree though that the gk codex in 6th does not have under priced units.Imo it is very balanced right now,probably the worse of tier 1 armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And again one codex with one under priced unit (longfangs) vs an entire codex of under priced units (dreadknights, psyflemen dreads, Draigo, Brotherhood Champion, Purifiers... need I continue?)

One under priced unit? Space wolves has a whole swath of underpriced units as well as cheap wargear. Purifiers are actually costed okay, it's their wargear that's undercosted (same with the psyflemen), and the brotherhood champion is useless, not sure why you mentioned it, and the dreadknight is okay priced with some expensive wargear, Draigo is also priced right, it's just the paladins were perfect at the points denial of the 5th edition system.

Have to agree here. Space Wolves have several undercosted units, which cases a plethora of issues.

Draigowing, was also heavily favored in 5th, because it pretty much Auto-won 1/3rd of the missions. This has been rectified in 6th.

GK were OP for their time, but now in 6th they are not any more, it actually looks like a planned decision to make them fit better into 6th at the cost of being OTT in 5th.
These days they sure are powerful, but they are fair. (unless you are demons and they you are ed, and that was actually not even a mistake-he did it on purpose!.)
Their fluff is still pathetic though.


I will display my main rant towards necrons then:
That book is absurd both in 5th and in 6th.
Every unit in the codex is both very hard-hitting and hard to kill compared to it's cost (with the exception of the flayed ones)-for a single point more then a space marine you get the same stats with better guns and reanimation protocols, for the mere "cos"t of having lower initiative. (who is in turn again re-balanced by having more attacks, so unless you got overwhelmed out you still do similar damage in melee.)

Some things there are outright absurdly priced, for example the wraiths having a 3+ invul and two wounds at 35 points a piece, piled on jump infantry frame with some mobility boost, AND great combat stats, or the night scythe costing a mere 100 points (was sane in 5th, but considering when it came out they sure as hell knew it will be aircraft in 6th and the rules for it!)

Then you got a long list of units that are designed to directly buff one another, cover each other's only weaknesses, provide insane flexibility and preform game-braking combos that there is no way a person writing that book could miss.

Add on top of that the unique ability to control the existence of night fighting, alter the enemy/s own units and remove their ability's, make the enemy's units attack each other (or even kill themselves in a challenge), deep strike in your opponent's turn, deep strike from within the field as movement, being borderline unkillable and the list goes on.

Its almost as if the design process was:
1-Make a core of the army with option to play both as hard-to-kill SM base or hard-to-kill Xeno base.
2-Make some cool special characters and units based on the concepts of either "undying army" or "we can change the rules of the game"
3-Check what unit N's weakness is.
4-Add another unit that is perfect answer the resolve said weakness/edit unit N to no longer have said weakness.
5-Repeat steps 3 and 4 until no weaknesses found.
6-Add a signature underwhelming unit to resemble fair play (flayed ones)

There is nothing that codex does not excel at, not a single "trick" another codex has and they don't, not a single unit they got no direct counter to, not a single weapon type they lack at least an alternative equivalent to, and even their most basic troop can threat every single unit type in the game from a distance.

That's why ward annoys me. he is under some sort of belief that the army who's codex he write has to be perfect and able to do every single thing the best way possible, with no drawbacks what-so-ever, and even beat the specialist armies at their own field.

will display my main rant towards necrons then:
That book is absurd both in 5th and in 6th.
Every unit in the codex is both very hard-hitting and hard to kill compared to it's cost (with the exception of the flayed ones)-for a single point more then a space marine you get the same stats with better guns and reanimation protocols, for the mere "cos"t of having lower initiative. (who is in turn again re-balanced by having more attacks, so unless you got overwhelmed out you still do similar damage in melee.)

They also do not have ATSKNF/Combat Squads/Combat Tactics, and an upgradable sgt, which comes standard in a Space Marine Squad. In addition to the lower I. The I is pretty huge, it's pretty easy to fold Necron Troop unit in CC, then sweep them. The balance is Superior Firepower/Resilency to a very big weakness in CC. I don't know where you get that they have more attacks, they only have 1 base. Immortals are pretty balanced for their point cost and so are Warriors.

Some things there are outright absurdly priced, for example the wraiths having a 3+ invul and two wounds at 35 points a piece, piled on jump infantry frame with some mobility boost, AND great combat stats, or the night scythe costing a mere 100 points (was sane in 5th, but considering when it came out they sure as hell knew it will be aircraft in 6th and the rules for it!)

Wraiths are a bit undercosted, I think everyone will agree with that. As far as the NIght Scythe costing 100 points, I think this will balance itself out as more books get Anti-flyer measures and Flyers of their own.

Then you got a long list of units that are designed to directly buff one another, cover each other's only weaknesses, provide insane flexibility and preform game-braking combos that there is no way a person writing that book could miss.

To me, this reads like the book has great synergy, and a large amount of competitive builds. There are really no Game-breaking combos.

Add on top of that the unique ability to control the existence of night fighting, alter the enemy/s own units and remove their ability's, make the enemy's units attack each other (or even kill themselves in a challenge), deep strike in your opponent's turn, deep strike from within the field as movement, being borderline unkillable and the list goes on.

It's really easy to take things out of context like you are doing, and make things Seem bad, so I'll recap real quick.

control the existence of night fighting,

You have one speceail charater that does this, and he causes it on his side as well, and the Ability to take 2 solar pulses. Solar pulses require A minimum 100 point Overlord, a 35 Cryptek, and then a 20 point solar pulse. It's not exactly cheap. There are also plenty of rules out there to deal with Nightfighting, such as Searchlights and Night vision.

alter the enemy/s own units and remove their ability's

We have one Special character than can do this, and it requires LOS to the enemy unit.

make the enemy's units attack each other (or even kill themselves in a challenge),

While MSS may be a bit undercosted, it is not prevalent. You can only take it on Lords and Overlords, so generally at most you'll run into 1-2 MODELS in the entire board with it. If the person is taking expensive Lords with MSS and other wargear in most of his units, then he is sacrifciing a lot of points to do it.

deep strike in your opponent's turn

When has this every been an issue?

deep strike from within the field as movement,

Which requries a 100 point overlord, two if you want to take two, and a sixty point cryptek, that is vulnerable to precision shots, and sniping. The Veil of Darkness is not a gamebreaker by any thought of the imagination.

being borderline unkillable and the list goes on

No unit in the Necron codex is even close to unkillable, you just need to learn how to deal with them properly.

You seem to have missed my point.

The vast majority of necron things are totally fine on their own, annoying at time-but usually fair, the problem resides in the fact that codex does EVERYTHING, and often even better then the codex that is supposed to be specialized in!

And then you get to mix-and-match the silly crypteks who can be equipped with a large array of special abilities who are in turn used to totally invalidate anything the unit was not good at beforehard.

The problem is that a necron army never needs to make any concessions. there is no effect of risk-reward, only reward, only improvements and only attempts to turn every unit more and more over-the-top with stacking modifiers and abilities who each in turn make the other modifiers even more empowering.

If you look at non-ward armies though, there is always a glaring "flaw" in the codex, something that codex just cannot preform well, some sort of ability they lack or some sort of concession that effects you no matter the army list, like tau being bad a combat, eldar got no "all-purpose" units, dark eldar got no serious armor, IG can't get heavy infantry, demons have deployment issues, chaos are a bit unpredictable at times, etc, etc.
The only codex I can think of that is non-ward and can do everything perfectly fine is SW, and the guy admitted its too good in retroprespective!

I NEVER said playing against GK isn't fun, but the book is filled with cheese. I never said that it was the games fault if its not fun, that entirely depends on the player your up against. What I don't like is that fact that these possible combinations are available. With the months of play testing out the rules surely someone saw that and went hang on, you don't think thats a little too much?

But that aside, 24" S5 BS4 Assault 2 is way better than 30" S5 BS3 Rapid Fire.... 'nuff said about that.

And Draigo is under costed, compare his stats and abilities to Abaddon... end of discussion about him.

Ok I'll give it that SW GH upgrades are undercosted, but they lose the ability to break into combat squads and have no heavy weapon options. Yes given that Long Fangs more than make up for that, but Rune Priests are no different from a Librarian other than spell selection, and sure enough sooner or later they will get random selection just like all the rest of us. But again that depends on the player as to whether its fun I guess...

But anyway back to my question, are GK and Necrons still currently a top tier codex because of being OP or because they were geared towards 6th ed?

@Clockworkzion please refrain from making comments directed about other people's opinions, such as books and plastic and dogs...

You seem to have missed my point.

I guess you missed mine, which is that just about everything you posted, is hyperbole, or just incorrect.

The vast majority of necron things are totally fine on their own, annoying at time-but usually fair, the problem resides in the fact that codex does EVERYTHING, and often even better then the codex that is supposed to be specialized in!

Most Codexs can cover every phase of the game well, with the right selection of Units. Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Orks, Blood Angels, and Space Marines can all do "Everything"

And then you get to mix-and-match the silly crypteks who can be equipped with a large array of special abilities who are in turn used to totally invalidate anything the unit was not good at beforehard.

Really? Crypteks somehow make units Necron Units good at close combat? Make them Immune to sweeping? Necrons don't have any heavy or special weapons available to them, in any of their Infantry. Crypteks help this, and come with a high pricetag.
There are certain types of Crypteks you won't even see fielded. As your last post, your stance on this is completely baseless.

f you look at non-ward armies though, there is always a glaring "flaw" in the codex, something that codex just cannot preform well, some sort of ability they lack or some sort of concession that effects you no matter the army list, like tau being bad a combat, eldar got no "all-purpose" units, dark eldar got no serious armor, IG can't get heavy infantry, demons have deployment issues, chaos are a bit unpredictable at times, etc, etc.

There is a serious flaw and Weakness in the Necron codex, and that is Their Across the board I2, and WS/BS 4. I fail to see how you cannot see that as weakness, or are you just choosing to Ignore it? They also have to pay out the nose to get any kind of Upgrades, like lords or Crypteks into squads.

The only codex I can think of that is non-ward and can do everything perfectly fine is SW, and the guy admitted its too good in retroprespective!

Source?

I NEVER said playing against GK isn't fun, but the book is filled with cheese. I never said that it was the games fault if its not fun, that entirely depends on the player your up against. What I don't like is that fact that these possible combinations are available. With the months of play testing out the rules surely someone saw that and went hang on, you don't think thats a little too much?

GK, while a terror in 5th, are pretty balanced now.

And Draigo is under costed, compare his stats and abilities to Abaddon... end of discussion about him.

Abbadon is way better than Draigo, I don't know what you're missing here.

Ok I'll give it that SW GH upgrades are undercosted, but they lose the ability to break into combat squads and have no heavy weapon options. Yes given that Long Fangs more than make up for that, but Rune Priests are no different from a Librarian other than spell selection, and sure enough sooner or later they will get random selection just like all the rest of us. But again that depends on the player as to whether its fun I guess...

It's not just that GH upgrades are undercosted, GHs themselves are undercosted themselves by at least 2 PPM. They have ATSKNF, Acute Senses, counter attack and a BP/Chainsword for less than the cost of a Standard Marine.
Rune Priests also are different from a Libby, as they get all of those special rules that GH get, game breaking powers, and Runic weapons, for the same cost a standard libby.

And Draigo is under costed, compare his stats and abilities to Abaddon... end of discussion about him.

Not even close to an end of discussion.

For 275 you get get termie, storm bolter, titansword, frag/krak/psyke out and stormshield, who is more kitted to fighting daemons and psykers, with a bit of utility with grand mastery.

Abbadon is 265 points of Termie, Drach'nyen, talon, champion of chaos, and VOTLL, who is more kitted to beating anything and everythings face that gets in the unlucky range of Abbadon.

Against each other, Abbadon will be getting an extra attack on draigo's charge, and +2 if he does charge first, abbadon will strike first and penetrate his armor compared to draigo who is unable to penetrate Abbadon's. Abbadon will be wounding on 4+, and have at least A5 attacks, A10 potentially each round, all rerolled hits because of VOTLL (Hatred Space Marines). All draigo has there is a stormshield and master-crafted force sword.

I love his beard, but seriously he can't be the scumbag that most people make him out to be, I understand some people don't like the rules he may have written. But come on the dudes living the life! He plays 40k and rights the rules for a living if I had any feelings that were negative towards our buddy Matt it would be Jealousy.

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard

This is by far his most detestable quality.

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard, but seriously he can't be the scumbag that most people make him out to be, I understand some people don't like the rules he may have written. But come on the dudes living the life! He plays 40k and rights the rules for a living if I had any feelings that were negative towards our buddy Matt it would be Jealousy.

As I pointed out on page 1 of the thread, he dresses like a giggalo. Please see exhibit one on Introduction pages 15 and 17 of the BRB for proof. I mean, I personally love to wear a nice vest and dress with some class....but I think it's the lack of a tie and the hair that keep it from being a well constructed ensemble. Truth is, he's a cheap fedora away from being the guy at every community college that carries all his gaming stuff with him everywhere, walks with a cane/walking stick, and wears denim shorts from February until December.

Truth is, I think if I actually knew him in person, we'd be friends...but I'd still criticize his clothes and call him a cheesefarmer.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard

This is by far his most detestable quality.

Sorry, but the choice of waistcoat and white shirt without either a tie or jacket is his most detestable quailty.

I'll bet he's got jeans on with that combo as well.

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard, but seriously he can't be the scumbag that most people make him out to be, I understand some people don't like the rules he may have written. But come on the dudes living the life! He plays 40k and rights the rules for a living if I had any feelings that were negative towards our buddy Matt it would be Jealousy.

I can normally adapt to things other authors have done, like undercosted Grey Hunters + Longfangs, or the Skaven mess in Fantasy.
My armies still work against these things, I just have to be a bit more on-the-ball and play a decent game to compensate for the fact my opponent's list has given them a slight advantage.

BUT!

How the f am I supposed to compete when for example, my opponent's OP codex doesn't even let me put one god damn model on the fething table?!!



Say all you want about the others, my Daemons will shrug their shoulders and get on with the buisness of competing. (and I'm talking pre-WD update Daemons)
Grey Knights on the other hand? F-my-life. Thanks for making me shelve my entire army Ward!

In order to completely bone a daemon player with GK, you have to do strike spam. If you do strike spam, don't you almost auto-lose against any non-daemon player. I don't think you're going to run into that problem competitively.

Experiment 626 wrote:
How the f am I supposed to compete when for example, my opponent's OP codex doesn't even let me put one god damn model on the fething table?!!

Say all you want about the others, my Daemons will shrug their shoulders and get on with the buisness of competing. (and I'm talking pre-WD update Daemons)
Grey Knights on the other hand? F-my-life. Thanks for making me shelve my entire army Ward!

I've seen you make similar complaints before and I just don't get them. I've been playing Daemons for a few years now, and I have never lost a game to Grey Knights. The closest I've come was a draw in my very first game against that army. I've faced Draigowing, Henchmen and Dreadaught spam, IG with GK allies and I generally win easily.

Granted, I've never played someone that spammed Warp Quake enough to cover the table, but I don't think I'm likely to either. I play in tournaments, and if someone brought a list like that they'd get tabled by any other type of army. If it's a friendly game, the other player shouldn't be bringing that crap.

Honestly, how many times have you actually played a GK army that covered the board in Warp Quake? I know it's possible in theory, but have you ever actually seen it in person? I haven't.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard, but seriously he can't be the scumbag that most people make him out to be, I understand some people don't like the rules he may have written. But come on the dudes living the life! He plays 40k and rights the rules for a living if I had any feelings that were negative towards our buddy Matt it would be Jealousy.

I can normally adapt to things other authors have done, like undercosted Grey Hunters + Longfangs, or the Skaven mess in Fantasy.
My armies still work against these things, I just have to be a bit more on-the-ball and play a decent game to compensate for the fact my opponent's list has given them a slight advantage.

BUT!

How the f am I supposed to compete when for example, my opponent's OP codex doesn't even let me put one god damn model on the fething table?!!



Say all you want about the others, my Daemons will shrug their shoulders and get on with the buisness of competing. (and I'm talking pre-WD update Daemons)
Grey Knights on the other hand? F-my-life. Thanks for making me shelve my entire army Ward!

Strike Spam against Daemons is no worse than something like Venom Spam or GH spam Against Tyranids. Except the fact that Strike Spam like that is not going to be a real TAC list.

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
I love his beard, but seriously he can't be the scumbag that most people make him out to be, I understand some people don't like the rules he may have written. But come on the dudes living the life! He plays 40k and rights the rules for a living if I had any feelings that were negative towards our buddy Matt it would be Jealousy.

While I don't have a problem with the Dude, since it's just a game I have one think to say. His beard sucks, it sucks hard. My beard is far superior.

Also, a brief note: Some of his rules are superior. Nemesis Force Weapons as actual Force Weapons is a good change. Making Grey Knights psykers instead of telling us they are and then giving them no powers. Giving us infantry squads cheaper than 150pts before upgrades. All these were good things.

My biggest gripes with the new GK book's rules, ignoring fluff entirely, are the lack of Inquisition stuff, the Special Characters, and the changes to heavy weapons; the lack of Inquisition stuff has been mitigated by 6e's Allies (Guard Veterans. Not quite Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, but close enough), and the Special Characters are easy enough to solve (though saying "Purifiers and Paladins are 0-1 Elites choices, but if you take the right Special Character the limitation is removed" would still have been better than allowing them as Troops).

The heavy weapons are more of a problem. Once upon a time psycannons were S6 heavy bolters that could be fired as Assault weapons at half range and ignored Invulnerable saves; they were effective weapons against Daemon infantry, and allowed for a variety of uses. Now they're S7, don't ignore Invulnerable saves, and are stuck at 24" range, which makes them significantly less effective against Daemon infantry and less versatile while making them better at killing light vehicles. What? We're the 'Daemonhunters', not the 'Light-Vehicle-Hunters'...

 pretre wrote:
In order to completely bone a daemon player with GK, you have to do strike spam. If you do strike spam, don't you almost auto-lose against any non-daemon player. I don't think you're going to run into that problem competitively.

You need a single 10 man squad in a castle style deployment to fairly screw up a Daemon army.
Fully spread out the max 2" coherency and gaining a 6" move to help set-up a solid frontage, you effectively lock-off an area around 22"x30" or so. (12" from every. single. model. in the squad!)
That's just the auto-mishap zone! As a Daemon player, you then need to factor in your average 7" scatter and aim your units 7.1" away from the quake zone.

So in actual game-play, the GK player gives themselves a buffer zone about 30"x37" from just a single fully spaced out squad!

2 full squads is pretty much a one-player game. 3 full squads and Daemons have about a 6"x8" or so area to deploy half their f'ing army on your average 6'x4' table!
You don't need to have every last inch covered by the quake bubbles themselves either. No unit that isn't just 3-5 models is going to fit into 2"/3" gaps, even with a direct hit...

Warp Quake is 100% broken because it effectively removes an entire army from the game.
Notice how the Necron's own similar ability maxes at just 6"? If Warp Quake were the same, then it wouldn't be a huge problem because then you'd need 40-50+ models to really gimp a Daemon army.
12" however is simply too much, especially when multiple units have the ability!



And yes, I see it alot. I've had to pretty much shelve my entire army because of Warp Quake.

And yes, you can build a solid TAC list that still gives coverage across almost the entire table, since you can simply take 2x 10-man Strikes + 1x 10-man Interceptor. That's still a solid core for a fairly competitive GK army... (just sprinkle in some HQ's w/BRB psychic powers, some termies, a psyfleman and/or dreadknight or two, perhaps a cheap henchman unit, etc...)

The only GK armies I've ever played that didn't have at least one Strike or Interceptor squad were;
a) Idiots running 100% pure Pallies.
b) Purifyer spam

Every other time I've run into at least 1 Warp Quake unit, right upto people who've pulled out 4x Strikes + 2x 'Cepter list tailoring b s!

Must be your area. The most I have seen is 1-2 WQ squads. They really aren't that great a unit when compared with what else you can get.

 pretre wrote:
Must be your area. The most I have seen is 1-2 WQ squads. They really aren't that great a unit when compared with what else you can get.

This. In my two years of playing Daemons, I've seen ONE player use Warp Quake at all, let alone spamming it. It sounds like they people in your area suck.

I think if it were a problem in my area I'd just bring multiple armies to the store when I play and not tell my opponent which one I was using until we were about to play.

Yeah, if your opponents are tailoring, you have bigger problems than the GK codex.

 undertow wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Must be your area. The most I have seen is 1-2 WQ squads. They really aren't that great a unit when compared with what else you can get.

This. In my two years of playing Daemons, I've seen ONE player use Warp Quake at all, let alone spamming it. It sounds like they people in your area suck.

I think if it were a problem in my area I'd just bring multiple armies to the store when I play and not tell my opponent which one I was using until we were about to play.

I never travel with less than 6k+ of models for that very reason.

Ya, I just can't get behind WQ spamming. I'll sometimes bring a squad with WQ to heard deep strikers closer to Coteaz, but most people just don't deep strike when you say you are bringing GK, but if I was a Deamons player and saw lines of Strike Squads and Interceptors with Scout, I'd just resign the game and vow never to play against that schmuck again. I love winning and all, but in the end the game should be fun and some strategies are just rude; I have a feeling the new Daemons Codex will have some kind of counter to that as it really doesn't hurt other armies to that extent, or maybe the idea is to ally with Chaos Marines now to counter. I forget can CSM keep daemons from scattering?

What I think is the overall feeling with Matt Ward armies: combined with how 5th actually did OP Paladins and Driago as it is clearly a Codex designed for 6th edition, it is really hard to let go of those harsh feelings towards certain units and as 3 out of every 4 codexes have been Matt Ward Codexes designed for 6th within the past three years, its hard to let go of the anger directed at some of the previously OP units (especially when your codex is due for an update or the proper 6th edition fix hasn't quite clicked yet).

Consider me corrected. Here's a BR from Calypso2ts re: Daboyz GT. He ran Daemons and was up against a player with 4 strike squads.

http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2013/01/calypso2ts-da-boyz-gt-3-of-3.html

 undertow wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Must be your area. The most I have seen is 1-2 WQ squads. They really aren't that great a unit when compared with what else you can get.

This. In my two years of playing Daemons, I've seen ONE player use Warp Quake at all, let alone spamming it. It sounds like they people in your area suck.

I think if it were a problem in my area I'd just bring multiple armies to the store when I play and not tell my opponent which one I was using until we were about to play.

Strikes were overshadowed by everything in 5th.
The one list they became popular in though was Draigowing, since they added more scoring capability AND provided some numbers that the Pallies otherwise lacked.
In 6th however Strikes are actually really good bang-for-buck core units since Purifyers & Pallies are no longer the bee's-knees. They're the cheapest MEQ unit in the book, can pack in the Psycannons, can make better use of Psybolt ammo due to their relative low cost and have cheap transports to move them about if needs be.

Only fools discount the humble Strikes as being useless.

Interceptors on the other were always good, despite the intertubes saying otherwise.
That 30" shunt w/Psycannons is a huge boon for alpha-striking almost any vehicle with 4/S7 rending shots for example. In Draigowing or Henchmen lists, 'Cepters added another dynamic through their speed and ability to bring re-inforcements where needed right away. Otherwise, they're the best late-game disruption unit in the codex for last minute contesting of objectives.

Most of the GK players in my area simply didn't jump on the 100% Pally or Purifyer lists unless they were still 12-16 or so and not that good at actually playing the game.
Most of the Tourny players in my area always took at least 10 Interceptors in 5th because of the unit's utility and speed. The more intelligent Draigowing players took Strikes to bulk out their numbers!

Now in 6th and with allies, it seems like everyone and their mother are adding some GK's to their lists!

Sure I have another 40k army I can play, but it doesn't stop me from being outright fustrated and annoyed as hell that my 3k+ pts worth of Daemons get to sit on a shelf because of Ward f'ing the pooch with Warp Quake.



That's why I dislike Ward as rules writer, his rules more than the others tend to invalidate or outright gimp whole collections/armies.

He killed Fantasy in 7th. (DE shinanigans & WoC chosenstar simply finished off an otherwise already dead edition.)
He made Undead almost unplayable with 8th's changes. (my poor, poor VC's...)
He made Daemons all but unplayable in 40k with GK's.

Experiment 626 wrote:
That's why I dislike Ward as rules writer, his rules more than the others tend to invalidate or outright gimp whole collections/armies.

He killed Fantasy in 7th. (DE shinanigans & WoC chosenstar simply finished off an otherwise already dead edition.)
He made Undead almost unplayable with 8th's changes. (my poor, poor VC's...)
He made Daemons all but unplayable in 40k with GK's.

As has been pointed out previously, this is not unique to Ward. Kelly did more damage to Tyranids than even Cruddace did with SW and DE. And that was just last edition.

See 3.5 Chaos and Skimmer Spam for invalidating most other armies in some previous editions.

Experiment 626 wrote:
That's why I dislike Ward as rules writer, his rules more than the others tend to invalidate or outright gimp whole collections/armies.

He killed Fantasy in 7th. (DE shinanigans & WoC chosenstar simply finished off an otherwise already dead edition.)
He made Undead almost unplayable with 8th's changes. (my poor, poor VC's...)
He made Daemons all but unplayable in 40k with GK's.

I respect your opinion, but I really don't feel that Daemons are anywhere near unplayable in 40k. With 6th Ed, they have become very strong, even with the existence of Warp Quake.

In tournaments, it's unlikely you'll see a WQ based list, and in friendly games, if they are in fact friendly, your opponent shouldn't play that crap if he wants to a) make sure you both enjoy the game and b) ever wants to play you again.

It sounds like most of your problems with Ward are with your local meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sorginak wrote:
I forget can CSM keep daemons from scattering?

No, the old CSM codex only allowed Summoned Daemons and stuff in Terminator Armor (and Oblits) to DS without Scatter. The new CSM codex doesn't even have that, just a crappy artifact that only activates once the bearer kills something in CC, and even then it only affects CSM units.

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

Talk about overstatement, I guess you believed the hate part from the "hate bandwagon" where there is neither anything close to real hate nor bandwagon of any kind. I am very negative towards his work but not himself as a person, I don't even like the fact that it is the actual person that is bashed, or that I am bashing things that others like you for example enjoy. Still, the bad things I post are my honest opinion so what can I do? Anyway if he showed up and explained a bit/ answered questions/ showed some interest in valid complaints I think he would get a lot more respect than he gets now. And I for example would not even insult or trash talk him, death threats that's more stretched than orangutan mechanics in 40k.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
What pisses people off most about Ward is his 'couldn't-care-less' style attitude towards the community.

Can you blame him, with the volume and intensity of the personal attacks that are thrown his way? I don't think he could openly post on a forum like Dakka without receiving death threats.

Talk about overstatement, I guess you believed the hate part from the "hate bandwagon" where there is neither anything close to real hate nor bandwagon of any kind. I am very negative towards his work but not himself as a person

And do you speak for everyone on the internet?

No, you do not. The hate for him is vicious, palpable, constant, and constantly directed to him on a personal level.

Wait wait wait...

So what you're saying is that people spend time and money in acquiring models, assembling them, and painting them... just so that they don't actually get a chance to use them at all?

I honestly don't see any fun in that. They might as well skip the middle step and just buy a Codex, write the list, show it to the Daemons player, and say, "I win. You lose."

Honestly, if I were playing against a Daemons player and I brought out my GK for some reason, I'd eschew the use of Warp Quake entirely.

Isn't the fact that people are simultaneously arguing that Deamons are a) unplayable or b) over-powered evidence enough that we, as a community (not necessarily on an individual level) don't have any idea what we're talking about?

 tomjoad wrote:
Isn't the fact that people are simultaneously arguing that Deamons are a) unplayable or b) over-powered evidence enough that we, as a community (not necessarily on an individual level) don't have any idea what we're talking about?

I tend to agree.

 tomjoad wrote:
Isn't the fact that people are simultaneously arguing that Deamons are a) unplayable or b) over-powered evidence enough that we, as a community (not necessarily on an individual level) don't have any idea what we're talking about?

Considering that they are talking about two completely different game systems, I would say that you have missed the point, and the rest of the community do know what they are talking about.

Daemons in Warhammer Fantasy is what the complaint about OP is, and Daemons <vs> Grey Knights in Warhammer 40,000 are where Daemons lose to Warp Quake.

After seeing this thread live for this long im starting to think it might serve well as a sticky. No more Matt Ward threads as all discussion can be sent here. It would be glorious.

That's not a bad idea.

I quite like Mat Ward's rules for Space Marines, the codex is flexible and offers a lot of viable options. Since I started playing in second edition, as far I'm concerned the fluff has never changed, and I just roll my eyes at suggestions Marines start as Devastators and work their way up to Tactical squads, as well as the suggestion that all Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. I've no doubt that the successors to the Ultramarines do respect their founding Chapter, but don't believe that Marines that have no common ancestry (like Imperial Fists) regard Ultramarines as anything other than strong and brave warriors. The weakness is obviously that while it can do everything, it doesn't do anything particularly well. Also, bike armies versus Dark Eldar is almost an autolose.

I also like his rules for Blood Angels (at least now 6th edition toned them down a little) but again nothing has changed since 2nd (nothing at all) for me. I'd use the rules to represent the 8th Company of my Marine Chapter. Fairly internally balanced, and like Marines suffer from being too much the generalist versus specialists.

Grey Knights though... whilst I like some elements of the book, for example that there is little in the way of weak options, the lack of significant weaknesses makes it unbalanced versus other Codexes, especially Tyranids and Daemons.

Necrons I haven't played against often, but I can see that like Grey Knights it lacks significant weaknesses. Being swept in assault is, of course, a risk for any army without Fearless/ATSKNF.

Those are his rules of course. His fluff (as already said) I just pretend doesn't exist.

 Necroshea wrote:
After seeing this thread live for this long im starting to think it might serve well as a sticky. No more Matt Ward threads as all discussion can be sent here. It would be glorious.

Legoburner praised the Omnissiah, said some prayer over the cogitators, and communed with the Machine Spirit about this. It turns out that stickied threads are basically invisible. When we sticky a thread it just takes up space at the top of the page and people start new threads on the same topic right below it. Sorry!

 Manchu wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
After seeing this thread live for this long im starting to think it might serve well as a sticky. No more Matt Ward threads as all discussion can be sent here. It would be glorious.

Legoburner praised the Omnissiah, said some prayer over the cogitators, and communed with the Machine Spirit about this. It turns out that stickied threads are basically invisible. When we sticky a thread it just takes up space at the top of the page and people start new threads on the same topic right below it. Sorry!

Alas, such as I feared. This blight will haunt us until the end days no doubt.

One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

 Manchu wrote:
One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

Not justified? So every criticism of Matt Ward's work is completely, totally and utterly 100% invalid?

Or, to put it a slightly different way:

One can only hope that people will one day realise that the reason this topic keeps coming up is because there's actually something to it, and it's not all hot air and hogwash.

No, HBMC, not everything is completely black or completely white so don't bother jumping to such extreme conclusions. The vitriol of the criticism (what I called "Ward hate") is what is not justified.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

Not justified? So every criticism of Matt Ward's work is completely, totally and utterly 100% invalid?

Or, to put it a slightly different way:

One can only hope that people will one day realise that the reason this topic keeps coming up is because there's actually something to it, and it's not all hot air and hogwash.

It's essentially just a meme at this point.

 Manchu wrote:
One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

I don't think anyone on Dakka hates Mat Ward as much as the WoW forumgoing community hates Blizzard (the company that makes WoW).

Or if they do, they don't express it with anywhere near as much vitriol.

I don't really like reading negative opinions of things I like, because it makes me like those things less - such as what happened last year after the WD Sisters dex and the gakstorm of complaints, which basically resulted in me going from playing 4-5 games a month to 4-5 in the entire following year.

And bottom line, I just don't like negativity because it gets me down.

But I spent about 7-8 hours straight doing nothing but reading Dakka, then decided to hop over to the WoW forums, and the only comment I could think of for the first thread I read was, "I would rather read a hundred pages of Mat Ward hate than deal with this community tonight."

And if my choice was between reading a discussion on Mat Ward and a flame war on the WoW forums - they don't discuss, they have flame wars - I'd read this thread. But of course, given a more broad set of options, I'd probably avoid the Ward thread too.

When I popped over to Dakka a few days ago for the first time in months, it was a huge, huge shock, coming from being mainly in WoW.

Point is, you guys are alright, whether you like or dislike Ward (is it Mat or Matt? WD usually spells it Mat, but the forums always call him Matt.)

I do wonder if the GW forums (before they were closed) were like the WoW forums are now. There's a few years worth of a gap in my knowledge because I got out of the hobby for a while.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

I don't think anyone on Dakka hates Mat Ward as much as the WoW forumgoing community hates Blizzard (the company that makes WoW).

Or if they do, they don't express it with anywhere near as much vitriol.

I don't really like reading negative opinions of things I like, because it makes me like those things less - such as what happened last year after the WD Sisters dex and the gakstorm of complaints, which basically resulted in me going from playing 4-5 games a month to 4-5 in the entire following year.

And bottom line, I just don't like negativity because it gets me down.

But I spent about 7-8 hours straight doing nothing but reading Dakka, then decided to hop over to the WoW forums, and the only comment I could think of for the first thread I read was, "I would rather read a hundred pages of Mat Ward hate than deal with this community tonight."

And if my choice was between reading a discussion on Mat Ward and a flame war on the WoW forums - they don't discuss, they have flame wars - I'd read this thread. But of course, given a more broad set of options, I'd probably avoid the Ward thread too.

When I popped over to Dakka a few days ago for the first time in months, it was a huge, huge shock, coming from being mainly in WoW.

Point is, you guys are alright, whether you like or dislike Ward (is it Mat or Matt? WD usually spells it Mat, but the forums always call him Matt.)

I do wonder if the GW forums (before they were closed) were like the WoW forums are now. There's a few years worth of a gap in my knowledge because I got out of the hobby for a while.

The Desecrators name is Matt, not sure why they would be lazy and give him the nickname Mat. It's just one more key poke.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One can only hope that people will one day realize Ward hate is neither justified nor funny.

Not justified? So every criticism of Matt Ward's work is completely, totally and utterly 100% invalid?

Or, to put it a slightly different way:

One can only hope that people will one day realise that the reason this topic keeps coming up is because there's actually something to it, and it's not all hot air and hogwash.

It's essentially just a meme at this point.

It wouldn't keep coming up if we all didn't know that he does it all on porpise:



Props to BlueDagger for the image; stolen from the other thread about Matt Ward.

 Necroshea wrote:
The Desecrators name is Matt, not sure why they would be lazy and give him the nickname Mat. It's just one more key poke.

Maybe he prefers it with one T and asked the WD team to spell his name that way?

I had a phase when I was in high school where I spelled my first name with a K instead of a Ch. I also added a high elf symbol next to it.

In my defense, the schizophrenia was getting pretty bad around then, so I might not have been in the most clear state of mind.

 Manchu wrote:
No, HBMC, not everything is completely black or completely white so don't bother jumping to such extreme conclusions. The vitriol of the criticism (what I called "Ward hate") is what is not justified.

Given how quickly a lot of people here (not you) seem to dismiss any level of criticism as mindless 'hate' in an attempt avoid making an actual cogent arguments, can you blame me for drawing such a conclusion?

My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No, HBMC, not everything is completely black or completely white so don't bother jumping to such extreme conclusions. The vitriol of the criticism (what I called "Ward hate") is what is not justified.

Given how quickly a lot of people here (not you) seem to dismiss any level of criticism as mindless 'hate' in an attempt avoid making an actual cogent arguments, can you blame me for drawing such a conclusion?

My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

There are cases where a completely false thing manages to spread. This tends to happen when the rumor spreads faster than the falsification.

A great example was the "fact" that an average human swallows, what was it, 7 spiders every year in their sleep? The actual number is 0, because people don't swallow things while they're sleeping and there's no way in hell a spider is going to crawl inside an animal's mouth unless maybe that animal is already dead. The entire thing was invented to show just how fast completely false things can spread.

And I'll admit, I participated in the spreading of that falsehood. My dad told me, and I told a few friends in the months between my dad telling me and my dad telling me it was actually false.

However, I don't know whether that's the case with Ward and his rules/writing/dressing/whatever.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

Sure there is.

It's not like this is the first (or even largest) non-issue getting blown out of proportion on the internet.

It is such a big issue because people comb the Ward work for those supposed "nuggets of truth" to perpetuate the silly meme (and only Ward's work), not because there is any substantive thing behind it.

- That's how the comparatively harmless "against-the-odd" of an 8 foot Ultramarines-Captain beating a 10 foot Eldar Avatar is considered a travesty, but the "against-the-odds" of a single Phoenix Lord defending an entire Planet against a Tyranid Hive Fleet is simply accepted.

- That is how Ward's Blood Angels-Necrons-alliance of desperation is plastered all over as the ultimate fluff-crime, but the far more atrocious Space Wolves-inviting-Eldar-to-a-Wolfy-Dance-on-Fenris is accepted.

- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

Its the very bias that makes this self-perpetuating.

'Ward-Hate' is right up there on the internet with 'Aliens-Shot-JFK' and 'MTV-faked-the-Armstrong-moon-landing' or the million U.S. citizen still firmly believing that "Barack-Obama-is-a-Muslim-and-was-born-in-Africa".

It's nonsense, but people who believe in it will continue to "find evidence" and ignore all reason, just so they can cling to their little piece of desperation.

 Zweischneid wrote:
- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

I heard a small rumor the other year that the Bloodtide story was actually in the GK background before, it just got omitted between then and now. I dunno; I started playing in 3e, and I really didn't know much about anything for years after that, so it would've been before my time.

I just wish I hadn't given in to my impulses and totally butchered the beautifully painted metal GK Terminator I had. Though in my defense, I had been up all night, so impulse control and thinking abilities were quite... iffy.

Sorry Zwie, can ya speak up? I can't hear you over the sound of that axe you're grinding.

Funny how you always accuse others of failing to respond to "actual cogent arguments", yet all you you ever do in response to people pointing out the glaring holes in your ramblings is responding with either personal insults or lame one-liners that you think deflect attention from the logical errors behind your anti-Ward ramblings.

And the only axe I grind, is the axe against mendacity.

Wow, 14 pages already.
People REALLY must hate Ward since there is 14 pages of complains against him...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Wow, 14 pages already.
People REALLY must hate Ward since there is 14 pages of complains against him...

Half the content of the thread is people pointing out how silly most of the complaints are though.

It is kind of an old subject, I wish people would just drop i t.

 Necroshea wrote:
The Desecrators name is Matt, not sure why they would be lazy and give him the nickname Mat. It's just one more key poke.

Is part of the meme now spelling his name with two Ts? I believe he spells it with only one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given how quickly a lot of people here (not you) seem to dismiss any level of criticism as mindless 'hate' in an attempt avoid making an actual cogent arguments, can you blame me for drawing such a conclusion?

Since you were talking to me and since you know me, I'd say yes I can blame you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

I think you're coming closer to the problem with that "famous for being famous" line than you think. The vitriol directed against Ward far exceeds any of its own premises. It is exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration, which seems like one of the dominant modes of the internet. When everything flashes by so fast and in the context of a thousand million other things, you might feel like you have to be OTT to get across. It's got to be in huge white letters on a ridiculous picture. This explains why I say Ward hate is not justified and you take it to mean that no cirticism of his work can possibly be valid. As has been pointed out time and time again, all the criticisms aimed at Mat Ward can be aimed with just as much justification at other studio employees. But they aren't. Why? For the exact same reason that Chuck Norris is a meme but Tony Sevalas isn't. It's arbitrary noise. You say it's valid because it keeps coming up. But that's like saying a song is good because the volume is turned up.

I've just read this whole thread - Can't we all just get along?

My 2p.
Overall, I don't hate Mat Ward. He's no better or worse than any of the other GW writers.

I dislike the BA codex (due to fluff) but I have to give Matt Ward his due.
He took under represented armies, wrote new books and sold a shed load of models for GW. Which are still competitive in 6th edition. So they are still selling. Which is good for GW and by extension us. Because this game we love/hate/can't leave alone is going well - there's more now available to get into the universe than ever.
6th is my favourite edition so far (which I believe he helped to write) It's meant my eldar have appeared more often
and I don't just get stomped by everything turn 1. Now you have to wait till turn two to charge more often than not and the game is better for it.

The Necron codex - the army needed fleshing out. I don't hate it (I'll admit I'm not a fan of mss) but it needed doing.

The GK codex - I don't like the way the mysterious ultimate sanction marines are now everywhere. But that's because of a number of reasons which I think are valid
1)Decent Rules
2)One of the lower costed armies to buy
3)lots of people went "Ooh Shiny!" when they came out

The SM codex - I really like. Even the bit about all other marines wanting to be Ultramarines. Because the Ultramarines would say that wouldn't they?

The only codex I have trouble with is the BA codex. I don't like the implication that everyone is afraid of Dante - The pre game nerf to any character he wants just feels a bit wrong.
Abaddon the Despoiler - has just gone done in power pre-game. Why? Because Dante. I'd be fine if it had to be done on a roll, but just going 'I've got Dante, so you are worse'?

I also don't like the sanguinor.
"Here I come to save the daaay!
I've just flown in from...wherever...to save the day!"
"Only we've never heard of you?"
BA turns to friend - "well I don't know about you, but I'm convinced".
It just felt badly shoehorned in. And I don't like the implication that the BA are unable to deal with some threats so they fly in the super blood angel
Marine+ = Blood Angel.
Blood Angel+ = The Sanguinor.

Mephiston as the 'lord of death' should be perfectly able to deal with any random threat without the BA equivalent of Mighty Mouse.
But it's still better than a first founding legion having a pdf for rules.

All I'm hoping for in the way of new armies from GW is that the unit costs in the codex balance out - For example if the new DA dex when it hits is costed well for what it can bring to the table, then I'll be happy. (I know Mat Ward didn't write it, I'm just making a general point to finish)
I'm just curious to what we'll be complaining about next month. If the Dark Angels are balanced, then fine. If they are overpowered/undercosted, will we moan about the new author breaking the game or Phil Kelly's chaos not being competitive enough and we'll all be shelving them until the next codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry Zwie, can ya speak up? I can't hear you over the sound of that axe you're grinding.

IRONY!

Wow... The Sanguinor is basically the Blood Angels version of Saint Celestine.

Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

Why did I just have the image of Scooby-Doo and the gang unmasking the Sanguinor to reveal old man Wickles who was trying to scare the Blood Angels.

And it would have worked too if it wasn't for you meddlesome Inquisitors!

Doesn't the sanguinor have a bucket load of possible reasons? Like he is the personification of their Primarch? Or that he is actually one of the chapter masters in disguise? Or that he is a robot killing machine sent from the future to erase the enemies of the blood angels in the past? Wait.... wut?....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok how is this for diplomatic...

Mat Ward writes powerful codexes that have a lot of cheese possibilities in them. By no fault of his own players use these cheese lists to spam the battlefield and basically auto win (or at least guarantee themselves a very high win rate).

Phil Kelly writes mediocre codexes that are roundly balanced and generally stay mid-tier throughout their life span. The SW are an exception to this in being a very easily spammable codex. Possibly his only work of any top tier quality (by no fault of his own).

Robin Cruddance generally writes great/bad codexes depending on his interest in the actual army. Either he likes them and they are great OR he doesn't like them and they suck. IMO the worst writer for codexes.

Though again I'm going to point out I don't like the fact that players turn powerful Ward 'dexes into cheese lists. Whether he intended their use that way or not, I don't dislike the guy.

I think this sums up the arguement as to why people hate Ward. It's mostly misdirected, it's largely the player base that makes the lists cheese, however Mat Ward has become some what of a figurehead for the cheese list hate, partly his own fault for writing powerful codexes, but actually down to the players who abuse those 'dexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
/thread

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

Good to know. ^^

This thread is literally everything I know about the Sanguinor.

Before this thread, all I knew is that it was a silly looking HQ model for the Blood Angels.

I, um... I don't play Blood Angels... or against Blood Angels... or even have the Blood Angels Codex. Sorta by choice, because they don't interest me - though the Sanguinary Guard backpacks do, and frankly, Celestine looks loads better with one of those on her back compared to the cherub-hoisted backdrop - so I don't collect them, and my regular (read: only) opponent uses my models and isn't much interested in getting her own, plus she likes the Orks for their straightforward tactics.

P.S. if you were curious how Celestine looks with a Sanguinary Guard jump pack:

https://d.facdn.net/art/andreyis/1342971686.andreyis_valeria.jpg

Apologies for the crappy paint job, particularly the sloppiness in getting the flesh tone on the hair; I absolutely suck at painting faces, because my hands aren't steady enough to paint eyes - either they tremble too much and it looks terrible, or I spend so much time forcing my hand not to shake, and slowly move to put the dot there without shaking, that without loading the paintbrush up with too much paint for the task, the tip is actually dry enough that it doesn't transfer any paint onto the model. Eventually, I just gave up painting face detail entirely, and every model in my army has its eyes closed - and I'm sure there's a rules lawyer out there who's vicious enough to try to assert that my models can't draw line of sight to anything because they have no eyes painted on, but I never have to play against them. Also, I don't shade... or highlight. Drybrushing is about as far as I go.

I'll have to check her out later, blocked from work. I'm a fan of Celestine kitbashes though.

 pretre wrote:
Well, except that, iirc, the Sanguinor is strongly hinted to be someone in disguise. Whereas Celestine is 'just' a living saint.

Have to dig out my BA codex.

If my memory serves me well he is in fact Sanguinius or his spirit. Probably his psychic manifestation.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Mat Ward writes powerful codexes that have a lot of cheese possibilities in them. By no fault of his own players use these cheese lists to spam the battlefield and basically auto win (or at least guarantee themselves a very high win rate).

So...a rules designer creating a ruleset open to abuse bears no responsiblity for people abusing it? I thought that was called bad game design.

GW has plenty to game design faults and always has. It is part of their charm.

It is a little silly to lay it all at Ward's feet.

I agree, Ward is not to blame for EVERYTHING GW publish.
I am just against his OTT fluff pieces like Draigo, Bloodtide, Mepohiston going trough entire Tyranid invasion force alone and with only his hands and Ultramarines fanfiction in Space Mairnes codex, not to mention under-powered Necrons...

But overall I am supporter of his rules, his rules are really fine. GK were OP when they came out but with 6'th edition they are fine now.

 pretre wrote:
GW has plenty to game design faults and always has. It is part of their charm.

It is a little silly to lay it all at Ward's feet.

I won't disagree with that at all, nor would I ever attempt to lay *all* of GW's ills at Ward's feet, just pointing out that that particular statement seemed to exclude laying any blame at his feet.


EDIT: also wanted to address these

Zweischneid wrote:

- That's how the comparatively harmless "against-the-odd" of an 8 foot Ultramarines-Captain beating a 10 foot Eldar Avatar is considered a travesty, but the "against-the-odds" of a single Phoenix Lord defending an entire Planet against a Tyranid Hive Fleet is simply accepted.

personally I really don't have an issue with the Avatar thing, really it's a manner of the writing. The Phoenix Lord thing is written very vaguely practically as myth, and thus can be taken lots of ways (e.g. the way in the Lord of the Rings where Gandalf states that Theodin stands alone even when Aragorn, Gimli and others fight by his side...), while Calgar's more detailed and cartoony in how it's portrayed.

- That is how Ward's Blood Angels-Necrons-alliance of desperation is plastered all over as the ultimate fluff-crime, but the far more atrocious Space Wolves-inviting-Eldar-to-a-Wolfy-Dance-on-Fenris is accepted.

Most won't argue that the most of the SW fluff in particular is just as bad. That said, at least at that time, the Necrons were still Omnicidal automotons, the Eldar have a history of being some-time allies of the Imperium when circumstances demand and a degree of their own form of honor.

- That is how Ward's Grey Knights butchering Sisters is a wrong-doing beyond all proportions, but Kelly's Space Wolves butchering Sisters is a.o.k.

One is engaging in a ritual more thematically appropriate to the foes the GK's are supposed to destroy and completely out of character for almost everyone's perception of the GK's, and involves literal sacrificial butchery, the other is a theological war with the Ecclesiarchy that the Space Wolves happen to win.

 pretre wrote:
IRONY!

I only had one axe to grind, but the new Chaos Codex is out so I don't need it any more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
IRONY!

I only had one axe to grind, but the new Chaos Codex is out so I don't need it any more.

But it is soooo sharp now.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most won't argue that the most of the SW fluff in particular is just as bad. That said, at least at that time, the Necrons were still Omnicidal automotons, the Eldar have a history of being some-time allies of the Imperium when circumstances demand and a degree of their own form of honor.

If other authors write fluff just as bad, there is no need to single out Mat Ward.

As for the Necron/Eldar thing, the Blood Angel story specifically mentioned the "enigmatic Silent King" as the key-Necron personality in the decision. No Omnicidal automotons anywhere. And it was a temporary battle-field alliance demanded by circumstances (a massive Tyranid attack) in ways the Eldar/Space Wolves story was not. The Eldar were simply welcome into the most sacred hall of the Space Wolves, partaking in sacred Space Marine burial rituals, having lots of drink, etc.., when on the very same page the Wolves shoot (unprovoked) the Sisters out of the sky for daring to fly too close to the Fenris system.

 Vaktathi wrote:

One is engaging in a ritual more thematically appropriate to the foes the GK's are supposed to destroy and completely out of character for almost everyone's perception of the GK's, and involves literal sacrificial butchery, the other is a theological war with the Ecclesiarchy that the Space Wolves happen to win.

One is fighting the Imperium's/Grey Knights arch-enemies, the Daemons of Chaos, in a typical Imperial "the-end-justifies-the-means" story. The very same story also exemplifies why the Grey Knights, among all the factions and sub-groups of the Imperium, are the only one who have (by both the old Codex and the new) never seen one of their members fall to Chaos. The extremes to which they go provides grim-dark substance to that particular ruthless vigilance of the Grey Knights that was sorely missing in Codex: Daemonhunters, where it was simple a fiat-writer statement without context.

And there is no "theological war with the Ecclesiarchy" in the Space Wolves book except for the one that Space Wolves started by surprise-attacking the Ecclesiary for flying too close (while, on the same page, having no objection to Eldar doing merry-go-rounds with them in the Great Hall of Fenris.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I agree, Ward is not to blame for EVERYTHING GW publish.
I am just against his OTT fluff pieces like Draigo, Bloodtide, Mepohiston going trough entire Tyranid invasion force alone and with only his hands and Ultramarines fanfiction in Space Mairnes codex, not to mention under-powered Necrons...

But overall I am supporter of his rules, his rules are really fine. GK were OP when they came out but with 6'th edition they are fine now.

Last year - well, okay, a year and a half ago - when I first learned about that Bloodtide story, I flipped a lid. Mutilated a GK Termie model I had sitting around out of rage and everything.

But when I was describing that piece of fluff on another forum, I laughed a little, because the whole thing was just ridiculous and showed how ignorant and superstitious the 41st Millennium is for humanity. (So, we're going to kill our own side's holy warriors because their blood is pure of taint, so we can use their blood in a ritual to bless our armor, and this will certainly curry the favor of their god.) If that kind of thing worked, odds are good that they'd be practically invulnerable to demonic taint by making a habit of murdering Sisters of Battle and stretching their skin over their armor plating and weapons. Surely the skin of a Sororitas would be more protective than a dab of blood diluted in oils and other reagents here and there, at least if it's their physical properties that protect them, rather than their supernaturally strong faith.

But of course, if they skinned the Sororitas, it would cross into the place of Chaos. Taking the blood and mixing it with oils for a dab is a more civilized ritual than strapping the skin of dead people to your armor. And to be honest, I'm getting a little nauseated thinking about it, and if that had actually been what was written... yeah, icky factor too high for loyalist Imperials. Maybe Chaos or Dark Eldar.

It's the same kind of thinking that leads a person from, "I have a social disease," to, "If I have sex with a virgin, it'll cure it," because, "virgins are pure."

Hell, if it worked, they could save countless resources and time by simply cloning Sororitas skin samples and integrating it into a layer in their armor!

Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos.

Is it?

Why has (so far) no Grey Knight ever fallen to Chaos?

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos.

Is it?

Why has (so far) no Grey Knight ever fallen to Chaos?

Really?

Grey Knights are both mentally and physically trained to resit daemons, they are trained to fight daemons and have most of their armoury dedicated to battling the warp. They are brainwashed into hating daemons even further than daemons and constantly train against the warps temptations.

(Also)

Sisters aren't really trained to fight daemons, yes they have a slightly greater chance of resisting them than say Space Marines, but they are really dedicated to hunting down cults and witches, not the daemonic. I don't think the Bloodtide is a terrible idea, just the slaughter of the sisters is odd and is just out of character.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

That's kinda my point. It doesn't make any sense, except to show how things in the 41st Millennium don't make any sense.

If it's just to show how far Grey Knights are willing to go to preserve their incorruptibility... Well, there's only one possible reason to kill them, and that is their whole "eliminate witnesses" thing, which would mean that they believe that Sisters of Battle are expendable, invaluable assets to the Imperium, seeing as non-GK loyalist Marines are extended the courtesy of not being murdered/mindwiped purely because of their value to the Imperium as a military asset. They doubly consider them useless in this case, because they didn't even ask them to help them fight the demon like they might use an Imperial Guard force before murdering/mindwiping them all.

Because if all they needed was a bit of blood for a few dabs here and there, they don't have to kill them. I'm sure Sororitas carry combat knives - or hell, those bayonet things that are no longer available as a wargear option - that would do the trick in a hurry if waiting for a proper syringe takes too long. I'm sure a Sororitas would have seen the devastation, seen Space Marine reinforcements, heard their unusual but harmless request, and hell, why not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Zweischneid wrote:

If other authors write fluff just as bad, there is no need to single out Mat Ward.

If it were just one book, I'd agree. However with Ward it's consistent on every release, Kelly's only bad book fluffwise was Space Wolves. It's the consistency that earns Ward that hate he gets.

As for the Necron/Eldar thing, the Blood Angel story specifically mentioned the "enigmatic Silent King" as the key-Necron personality in the decision. No Omnicidal automotons anywhere.

At the time that meant squat, even Necron Lords were still largely slaves to the will of the C'tan.

And it was a temporary battle-field alliance demanded by circumstances (a massive Tyranid attack)

At a time when the Necrons wouldn't see any difference between the SM's or the Tyranids.

The Eldar were simply welcome into the most sacred hall of the Space Wolves, partaking in sacred Space Marine burial rituals, having lots of drink, etc..,

Again, yes, silly, won't argue that. The SW book was atrocious. That said, we have other books where the Eldar are consulted in close quarters with Imperial authorities as well, such as the book Shadow Point.

when on the very same page the Wolves shoot (unprovoked) the Sisters out of the sky for daring to fly too close to the Fenris system.

Forgot about that, but again, they'd had a war with them, and shot them down in a territorial dispute when the ecclisiarchy comes in to investigate their beliefs, *completely* different than butchering allies to use blood for a ritual.

Vaktathi wrote:

One is fighting the Imperium's/Grey Knights arch-enemies, the Daemons of Chaos, in a typical Imperial "the-end-justifies-the-means" story. The very same story also exemplifies why the Grey Knights, among all the factions and sub-groups of the Imperium, are the only one who have (by both the old Codex and the new) never seen one of their members fall to Chaos. The extremes to which they go provides grim-dark substance to that particular ruthless vigilance of the Grey Knights that was sorely missing in Codex: Daemonhunters, where it was simple a fiat-writer statement without context.

I get that, really I do. That doesn't mean it's a good story or that it fits thematically with the vision of the faction. It's a *bad* way or portraying that aspect. There are plenty of ways that can, and has, been shown before. Destroying allies to prevent spread of corruption, leaving them to die while they go on to accomplish another task, etc. Killing them to annoint themselves in the blood of their allies is textbook Khornate behavior.

And there is no "theological war with the Ecclesiarchy"

Look up Cardinal Bucharis and the Sisters of Battle fluff, the Ecclesiarchy waged a full scale war against the Space Wolves during the Age of Apostasy under Cardinal Bucharis.

except for the one that Space Wolves started by surprise-attacking the Ecclesiary for flying too close (while, on the same page, having no objection to Eldar doing merry-go-rounds with them in the Great Hall of Fenris.

IIRC they were coming to look into the SW's supposedly heretical beliefs, not just because they were too close (don't have the book in front of me though).

 blood reaper wrote:


The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Yup.

And it "could" happen to Grey Knights too (just as it could happen to any other Space Marine Chapter) if their vigilance slips.

The only thing that sets the Grey Knights apart, that which makes them "different" from Astral Claws, is that they go to far more extreme ends to prevent corruption. This is illustrated in the book by the Blood Tide story.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

But then wouldn't it make a lot of sense, assuming that a Sister of Battle's body is physically resistant to Chaos, to obtain skin samples from the most pure Sororitas, and clone the hell out of them (the skin samples) to make a Sororitas-skin layer for their armor?

Skin's just as good as blood at preventing physical Chaos corruption, right? And if it's not, surely a full layer integrated into the other layers of the suit would be more protective than a few drops.

Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


The Astral Claws would eventually turn to Chaos as a majority, and several Soul Drinkers would become Chaos marines.

Yup.

And it "could" happen to Grey Knights too (just as it could happen to any other Space Marine Chapter) if their vigilance slips.

The only thing that sets the Grey Knights apart, that which makes them "different" from Astral Claws, is that they go to far more extreme ends to prevent corruption. This is illustrated in the book by the Blood Tide story.

However, the Astral Claws are renegades along with the Soul Drinkers, not Grey Knights.

Lexicanum wrote: Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption,

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

But then wouldn't it make a lot of sense, assuming that a Sister of Battle's body is physically resistant to Chaos, to obtain skin samples from the most pure Sororitas, and clone the hell out of them (the skin samples) to make a Sororitas-skin layer for their armor?

Skin's just as good as blood at preventing physical Chaos corruption, right? And if it's not, surely a full layer integrated into the other layers of the suit would be more protective than a few drops.

Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

It's a 25 points upgrade for Codex: Khorne Knights. They all have preferred enemy and hatred "Sisters of Battle".

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Also, wouldn't the Ageis Armour be liquid proof? And the psychic protection could easily deter the corrupted blood.... Grey Knights have apothecaries, who would have syringes.....

Wait, how does the sister blood protect against the corrupt blood? If the sisters are corrupted by the blood with such ease, then what's the point painting the armour with the blood? It won't do anything!

 Pouncey wrote:
Or hell, have a blood drive every month for Sororitas only, if it only works with blood, and distribute it in small, sturdy vials in case the need comes up in a similar future situation.

This needs to be made into a picture. Like, now. Soritas blood bank, sisters walking out of the building while grey knights are loading up the blood samples into cargo ships, with a big banner above the building entrance saying "donate blood today, avoid having it harvested tomorrow!"

 blood reaper wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

Grey Knights have never been "immune" to anything.

The exact words of the Codex are

"In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now. The Grey Knights fight on.."

There is no "magic-chaos-does-not-stick-varnish" to their armour. Grey Knights are not - per se - any more or less "immune" than.. say.. Astral Claws or Soul Drinker Space Marine. There is no in-build immunity. Indeed, if there were, the whole achievement of "no Grey Knight has ever fallen" wouldn't be a noteworthy achievement, or would it? There is nothing preventing the first Grey Knight going off "tomorrow" to become a Daemon Prince or whatnot.

The only thing that "makes it so", what sets Grey Knights apart is their rigorous vigilance and willingness to go further than anyone else in ensuring no GK stumbles. The Blood Tide is an illustration of that.

Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Also, wouldn't the Ageis Armour be liquid proof? And the psychic protection could easily deter the corrupted blood.... Grey Knights have apothecaries, who would have syringes.....

Wait, how does the sister blood protect against the corrupt blood? If the sisters are corrupted by the blood with such ease, then what's the point painting the armour with the blood? It won't do anything!

My thinking is that it's the Sister's faith that protects them, not their blood itself. If so, the blood is completely useless without the Sister's faith to empower the flesh.

If the Sister's faith over a lifetime has left her with magical properties, there's no need to kill them for the blood. The Sororitas likely have combat knives that would to the trick in a pinch, particularly since the GK were just taking a bit and using it in a mixture. And I can't imagine they'd say no.

So why would the Grey Knights go to such lengths as to kill them before attaining their blood? Again, the only plausible reason I can think of is that they were getting their "eliminate witnesses" thing out of the way early, which means that they believe the Sisters of Battle are redundantly expendable. First because loyalist Marines are spared the murder/mindwipe for being so valuable, and the Sisters were not. Second because the Grey Knights did it before the battle, instead of using any aid the Sororitas could provide - every bolter shell they can fire counts, and every one that dies is a bullet or force weapon strike that the GKs don't need to do later.

So either the Grey Knights are acting completely stupidly, which would support the story being written as a showcase to how backwards and screwed up even the Grey Knights are.

Or Grey Knights consider Sisters of Battle to be completely useless in a fight (maybe just that particular fight, though).

Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

Pretty sure Grey Knights aren't nearly as pious as the Sororitas are. Sororitas are powerful enough in their faith that it often manifests itself on the battlefield in the form of minor miracles. Grey Knights train pretty much exclusively to fight Daemons, so they steel their minds to the "temptations of the warp", and their armor has layers and layers of anti-daemon stuff in it, to the point where daemons feel pain if they get close enough to a Grey Knight.

In the Blood Tide story, though, it's such an insanely powerful daemon that it pretty much wiped out... was it all the settlements or the whole planet? apart from the Sisters of Battle, by itself. So naturally there was some cause for concern against a daemon of that magnitude.

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

 blood reaper wrote:


Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Historically, Space Marines don't have faith as such. They see the Emperor as a very strong and powerful man who they revere. Faith implies a lack of knowledge. Space Marines KNOW no fear because of their training. Sisters have faith that the emperor will deliver them but still feel fear.

Sisters have the ability to do miraculous things through will and faith alone.
Space Marines have the ability to do miraculous things through training and biochemistry/enhancement.

Will and faith are proven safeguards against the warp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedricbob wrote:
Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

 blood reaper wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Wouldn't the Grey Knights have such faith as well?

Or did Matt forget this?

The faith of space marines is quite different from the faith of Sisters of Battle and pious humans.

Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Not really. Grey Knights rely on their intricate armor for physical protection from daemons. Their faith doesn't grant them any supernatural abilities - for GK, it's all training, gear, skill, and luck.

And for mental protection, see the post above mine. ^^

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


Wouldn't it still be effective against the daemon bloods power?

Historically, Space Marines don't have faith as such. They see the Emperor as a very strong and powerful man who they revere. Faith implies a lack of knowledge. Space Marines KNOW no fear because of their training. Sisters have faith that the emperor will deliver them but still feel fear.

Sisters have the ability to do miraculous things through will and faith alone.
Space Marines have the ability to do miraculous things through training and biochemistry/enhancement.

Will and faith are proven safeguards against the warp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedricbob wrote:
Matt Ward's fluff is his problem imho,

as an example he changed the C'tan from almost omnipotent, incredibly dangerous ancient entities existing since the dawn of time into BLOODY POKEMON!

Well, I was really talking about the combined faith of the Grey knights and the power of the Ageis, which helps to deter daemons. I don't know what the Sister blood would have exactly done to help, I mean, if it corrupted the other Sisters who would have been just as "faithful" then how would it assist the Knights at all?

Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

 Necroshea wrote:
Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

Like the Ork's latent abilities?

blood reaper wrote:Well, I was really talking about the combined faith of the Grey knights and the power of the Ageis, which helps to deter daemons. I don't know what the Sister blood would have exactly done to help, I mean, if it corrupted the other Sisters who would have been just as "faithful" then how would it assist the Knights at all?

The aegis is powered by technology and psychic power. It is a bit different than faith. Sisters blood helped (with the proper oils, etc) to fuel a more powerful defense (probably something to do with enhancing the aegis)

Necroshea wrote:Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

Faith has been specifically said not to be psychic in nature in almost every book that the SoB have had. The best theory that I have heard is that it is by pure will and not 'divine 40k magic'.

 Necroshea wrote:
Now, I'm just curious, is it not possible the sisters just have later psyker abilities that manifest in response to their extreme emotional states? As in when they get all caught up in prayer in the middle of a battle?

No.

In game terms, and in fluff terms, there's no psyker abilities at all amongst the Sororitas.

Besides which, psykers who could survive a direct meltagun hit and come out unscathed, or put an armored fist through a suit of Terminator armor like it was butter, generally they get snatched up by the Black Ships. Or whatever organization it is that grades psykers.

But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

I think the problem with Bloodtide that people don't get is that GK would skin their own grandmother alive to defeat daemons.

They show up on the bloodtide planet, hours until it is consumed. They see that 99% of the populace is dead. They will have to purge the other 1% for the possibility of daemonic infection when they are done.

They know that the bloodtide will probably overcome them. They say 'Hey, you remember page 102 of the GK handbook that says we can use a certain combination of ingredients to enhance the Aegis?' 'Yeah, but where are we going to get virgin blood at a time like this?'

The whole point of the GK fluff since at least Index Astartes has been that they use the tools of the enemy to fight the enemy. They will do anything to safeguard the Imperium from the Daemonic.

I love how this is always taken as such a strange thing for them to do when they have been known to destroy entire planetary populations if necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

The Aegis is not invulnerable to psychic or warp energy. It is just another type of armor. It relies on technology and mysticism to protect the wearer. Sufficiently powerful psychic/warp energy easily penetrates the Aegis. The Bloodtide was powerful enough to easily penetrate it. They used a ritual to enhance it to protect them.

 Pouncey wrote:


Okay. So they need Sisters of Battle blood... And they had to kill the Sororitas to get it?

Again, why not a syringe, or a knife or sarissa or anything? Why kill them when they don't have to in order to attain what they need?

Why chainswords and exploding bolts and lighting claws to rip a foe apart?

Really, it's not an exercise in anti-Chaos alchemy. It's a demonstration of an ultimate-grim-dark-means-justify-the-ends. Syringes wouldn't fit the overall 40K theme, nor the moral of that particular story.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Really, it's not an exercise in anti-Chaos alchemy. It's a demonstration of an ultimate-grim-dark-means-justify-the-ends. Syringes wouldn't fit the overall 40K theme, nor the moral of that particular story.

There was time pressure as well.

 pretre wrote:
I think the problem with Bloodtide that people don't get is that GK would skin their own grandmother alive to defeat daemons.

They show up on the bloodtide planet, hours until it is consumed. They see that 99% of the populace is dead. They will have to purge the other 1% for the possibility of daemonic infection when they are done.

They know that the bloodtide will probably overcome them. They say 'Hey, you remember page 102 of the GK handbook that says we can use a certain combination of ingredients to enhance the Aegis?' 'Yeah, but where are we going to get virgin blood at a time like this?'

The whole point of the GK fluff since at least Index Astartes has been that they use the tools of the enemy to fight the enemy. They will do anything to safeguard the Imperium from the Daemonic.

I love how this is always taken as such a strange thing for them to do when they have been known to destroy entire planetary populations if necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
But why? The Ageis already deters the daemons power, so "enchanting" it would be pointless, and how does it really enchant it?

The Aegis is not invulnerable to psychic or warp energy. It is just another type of armor. It relies on technology and mysticism to protect the wearer. Sufficiently powerful psychic/warp energy easily penetrates the Aegis. The Bloodtide was powerful enough to easily penetrate it. They used a ritual to enhance it to protect them.

Makes a lot more sense now, thanks. ^^

To be honest, I didn't know the planet was gonna go under entirely in that short a timeframe, even if they succeeded. I had assumed that once they killed/banished/whatever the daemon, it would go away and things would slowly return to normal. With that kind of timeframe, yeah, efficiency would be key. I also had assumed that it had to be Sororitas blood specifically, and also that they'd basically made up the ritual as they were going along.

So yup, that makes MUCH more sense.

Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.

 pretre wrote:
Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.

Agreed.

Despite the fact that the story has been discussed to hell, I never actually read the whole thing, just snippets here and there when people quote a sentence or two.

But then, I stopped reading Codex fluff a while back. The most I read these days is web forums, IM chats, and maybe a rulebook or White Dwarf while in the bathroom.

For some bizarre reason, I went from reading books from dusk till dawn, to not even being able to stomach sitting down and reading 40k fluff one story at a time.

 Pouncey wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Many things make a lot more sense when you read them.

Agreed.

Despite the fact that the story has been discussed to hell, I never actually read the whole thing, just snippets here and there when people quote a sentence or two.

But then, I stopped reading Codex fluff a while back. The most I read these days is web forums, IM chats, and maybe a rulebook or White Dwarf while in the bathroom.

For some bizarre reason, I went from reading books from dusk till dawn, to not even being able to stomach sitting down and reading 40k fluff one story at a time.

Ya, I can't tell you how many times I have read that part of fluff to people and they laugh and retract in shock before it finishes and then later tell just that one part. Not to mention, no one knows what Ward's intention was when writing it. If memory serves me, there used to be a Apoc formation that when used before the end of the game & there are no daemons on the table, the GK player must fire upon any non-GK be ally or no. That story (as I have a feeling many of the short stories in all the codexes are) may just be a small snapshot of a large battle they were playing while play testing the rules. This sort of fluff makes its way into D&D books all the time and why not draw from what you know.

The idea is to create a dynamic and engaging universe, if all the armies never wronged each-other and there was nothing but perfect cooperation between the whole of the imperium then every codex would be battle brothers fluffy wise and the game would seem ridiculous to have so many armies.

I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

Despite how the dice gods would take revenge, I've often thought of corrupting the F out of a GK terminator squad as the basis of a CSM army. I think it would look amazing if done right.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I actually like some things in the GK book because it can be interpreted in a more silly way.

Like how a bunch of GK changed sides and worshipped Khorne after they performed the blood ritual, sacrificed an entire group of warrior nuns, and smeared their armor with the spilled blood. All of which was done just to get their hands on a Deamon Sword. I like to imagine they disappeared to go test it out on the nearest Orphanarium.

There's also Draigo's section. I actually modeled a Hellbrute after him. Poor guy stuck inside a suit of deamonically possessed armor that tears through the battlefield and devouring loyalists just to power the infernal device and fuel Draigo's dellusions.

And people say Ward is bad...

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

 Necroshea wrote:

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

Right, but the story of the Bloodtide is about physical corruption. I.e. Death from Chaos.

 Manchu wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point remains - if it wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be such a big thing. That's circular logic in that the conclusion includes the premise, but it's like the "famous for being famous" thing that we attach to certain people. If it were minor. If it were untrue. If there wasn't some nugget of truth to it, then it simply wouldn't keep returning like this.

I think you're coming closer to the problem with that "famous for being famous" line than you think. The vitriol directed against Ward far exceeds any of its own premises. It is exaggeration for the sake of exaggeration, which seems like one of the dominant modes of the internet. When everything flashes by so fast and in the context of a thousand million other things, you might feel like you have to be OTT to get across. It's got to be in huge white letters on a ridiculous picture. This explains why I say Ward hate is not justified and you take it to mean that no cirticism of his work can possibly be valid. As has been pointed out time and time again, all the criticisms aimed at Mat Ward can be aimed with just as much justification at other studio employees. But they aren't. Why? For the exact same reason that Chuck Norris is a meme but Tony Sevalas isn't. It's arbitrary noise. You say it's valid because it keeps coming up. But that's like saying a song is good because the volume is turned up.

Telly Savalas (I guess you mean him, the guy from Kojak) did not throw exact same roundhouse kick a million times with that robotic face expression while playing the character without a slight shade of personality. They shouldn't even be put in one sentence, Chuck Norris being a meme is not arbitrary at all, it's justified as feth.

That's a really good analogy btw, Mat Ward to Chuck Norris. Not to mention Ward could write a guy like Texas Ranger, that's his type of a fictional character.

Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
Blood tide was just a terrible concept. Sisters, who had a member fall to chaos, are used to sanctify GK, whom have never fallen to chaos. Because that makes sense.

As it's been said before, Ward doesn't write fluff, he writes fan fiction.

Grey Knights have never been immune to getting killed by Chaos-related stuff. This is probably the umpteenth time this has been pointed out, and it's going to be the umpteenth time it's ignored because people want to rage against Ward.

I like how you ignore what I posted then tried to make a point about people ignoring things, then claimed I was raging. That's cute.

Bull. You say that it doesn't make sense to use Sister blood to purify Grey Knights because one sister has fallen to Chaos, whereas no Grey Knight has. I point out that the Grey Knights generally aren't immune to dying (excepting Thawn) from warp-related stuff, which explains why they needed the blood from the Sisters who, by some fluke, turned out to be immune.

I never said they were immune to dying, but I think I understand why you thought I did. When I say fall to chaos, I meant in a sense that they become corrupted. Chaos is the main source of GK death because it's just about all they're exposed to.

I know you didn't say anything about being immune to dying. Again, read my second post. They need the blood of the Sisters, who are somehow immune to the Bloodtide, to avoid dying. As you correctly observe, dying =/= falling to Chaos.

I figure that those sisters developed the equivalent of faithful anti-bodies.

Horrible Analogy warning:
It is like the GK wandered into the middle of an ebola epidemic with a group of survivors sitting around playing cards. They use the survivors to immunize themselves against the epidemic so they could cleanse it. Wasn't time for proper vaccine creation though, so they just had to wing it.

 pretre wrote:
I figure that those sisters developed the equivalent of faithful anti-bodies.

Horrible Analogy warning:
It is like the GK wandered into the middle of an ebola epidemic with a group of survivors sitting around playing cards. They use the survivors to immunize themselves against the epidemic so they could cleanse it. Wasn't time for proper vaccine creation though, so they just had to wing it.

Ridiculous...yet funny. I accept this explanation.

They should so hire me as their spin doctor.

edit: Or you know codex reviewer. I would do that too.

I can see it now.

>Blood tide blah blah blah
>several pages later
>blah blah blah GK killed sisters, all is well.

Pretre - This sucks! I can fix it!

>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

 Necroshea wrote:
>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

Oh dear lord. I'd like to think I write better than that.

Although I did definitely lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking of acting as more of a 'the internet will have a gak fit over this' detector.

 pretre wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:
>Rapid destruction aids everywhere. Sisters blood has faith powered antibodies that are immune and luckily highly transferable. No time for pleasantries
>GK make it rain
>All is well

I'd buy that codex

Oh dear lord. I'd like to think I write better than that.

Although I did definitely lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking of acting as more of a 'the internet will have a gak fit over this' detector.

As my blacksmith teacher once told me, If it looks good on the first go around, don't screw with it or it will almost always come out worse.

So yeah, less complaining, more publishing!

I'll be honest, one of the reasons I dislike the "Fluff is everything" Crowd when it comes to matt is because of several reasons.

1: Fluff can be found in previous codex, black library, FFG and alternate sources.

2: I'm stuck with the same rules till an update.

So if I'm presented an update which has piss poor updates and innovation, I'm stuck with them for near six to ten years, while fluff I can get from any black library, FFG, or what have you.

Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

Eh?
That was a rumor that didn't happen.

Or are you trying to say that the newest Chaos codex is equivalent to a WD update for the previous codex.

 pretre wrote:
Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

That was actualy a perfect example of people recognising complete kitsch, cheap acting and stupid fights. There was nothing arbitrary about it, the guy got what he earned for.

 pretre wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Which is mainly why I'm disappointed by the white dwarf update for the chaos renegade codex.

Eh?
That was a rumor that didn't happen.

Or are you trying to say that the newest Chaos codex is equivalent to a WD update for the previous codex.

I'm sure it's the latter, as that's how a lot of people feel.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Were you trying to provide an example of arbitrary noise? Excellent job.

That was actualy a perfect example of people recognising complete kitsch, cheap acting and stupid fights. There was nothing arbitrary about it, the guy got what he earned for.

Except Chuck Norris delivered horrid acting > thus the internet-meme makes him out to be the coolest thing since sliced bread.

With Mat Ward, it's the inverse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm sure it's the latter, as that's how a lot of people feel.

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

The problem is that it seems like chaos has been stuck without any sort of advancement, despite the fluff stating all new daemontech, new vehicle styles, the Dark Mechanicus producing new sorts of vehicles and creations for warbands and legions, new oddities being produced, new weaponry that could be based on fluff.

It's like chaos in the book currently is underfunded and still only using what they took with them from the older days, while the Imperium has kicked it up a notch and produced far more varieties of new things then even Chaos itself...

Reading FFG's books on the Black Crusade, The Tome of Blood and Fate.. It just makes it harder to look back and see no advancement at all aside from a few new units (Which have upgrades that aren't able to be used on anything else apparently)

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Telly Savalas (I guess you mean him, the guy from Kojak) did not throw exact same roundhouse kick a million times with that robotic face expression while playing the character without a slight shade of personality. They shouldn't even be put in one sentence, Chuck Norris being a meme is not arbitrary at all, it's justified as feth.

Yep, this is exactly what I meant by turning up the volume and saying that makes the music better. The more your praise Chuck Norris the more awesome he is, right? (This is not an invitation. Please no more Chuck Norris memery.) And this is exactly what we see done with Ward: the more frequently and hyperbolically we complain about him, the more accurate the criticisms.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

Funny enough, that is the state of the Legions in the 41st Century. Manical egos, warlords, traitors and fanatics that haunt the Eye of Terror and the fringes of the Imperium.

The delusion of still fighting the long war "as a Legion" is but one insane self-deception among Chaos Marines, one among many, and certainly nothing that actually still exists in the reality of the 41st century.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Funny. What is in there for Renegades I wonder? All I see is the Horus-Heresy guys> Typhon, Kharn, Fabius.. ya know , Abaddon. Hell, they even cut the Wolf of Fenris story of Huron taking on the Wolves.

Funnily enough, most of those could be considered renegades. Typhus left the legion because he felt that the Death Guard wasn't doing anything and so took who would follow him, Fabius bile doesn't care for his origins anymore and works as a biologist who will work for anyone who would want his "Upgrades", Kharn is the betrayer and often kills who comes near or with him, Ahriman was banished by Magnus because of what happened.. They really have no ties to their main legion aside from those that leave and join with them.

Funny enough, that is the state of the Legions in the 41st Century. Manical egos, warlords, traitors and fanatics that haunt the Eye of Terror and the fringes of the Imperium.

The delusion of still fighting the long war "as a Legion" is but one insane self-deception among Chaos Marines, one among many, and certainly nothing that actually still exists in the reality of the 41st century.

The problem is that it seems that the chaos marines are in stasis when it comes to wargear, daemontech, and all sorts of fun Dark Mechanicus type creations that aren't the basic rhino, while the Imperium is the one (In an ironic fashion) upgrading their tech, getting new things, and changing up. While Chaos terminators still use Reaper Autocannons that seem to be in such a rarity that they are vastly expensive to get for them.

 pretre wrote:
Right, but the story of the Bloodtide is about physical corruption. I.e. Death from Chaos.

Much as I find the Blood Tide (and everything in the GK Codex) to be silly, badly-written 12-year-old fan-fiction-y nonsense, I did include it in the Rituals section of Tome of Blood. It seemed like a good ritual for Khorne players to use - channelling part of Ka'jaganath (or however you spell his name) power into a torrent of warp-blood that corrupts everything it touches.

I really need to nut up and get all the ffg books.

Yes you do.

Well, I added a bunch to my amazon wishlist if you want to get me some for my birthday.