I really enjoy the tables, I'm sorry it's not fun for some people. In the end I try to accept the game for what it is. Just random fun. I like that it feels really fluffy and kicks my imagination up a notch to see with my minds eye what's happening on the board.

I cant wait to see what kind of wacky stuff they have in store for my orks. I just hope they let Kelly do it again instead of someone else.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Also, warp isn't all that dangerous to humans, either. Hell, as long as you got gellar fields on your boat, you can plow through the realm of the chaos gods with impunity. Sorry, not much scared of daemons who get hard-countered by a mass-produced machine.

Sorry, untrue, gellar fields can and are broken by daemons in the fluff. In fact, ever read the fluff for screamers of tzeentch? Their fluff says they can and do burrow through the field.

I like a challenge, the table gives me that.

I'm sorry if you don't like the table... but imho a challenge is never a bad thing, it's always good thing.*

*the only time I'd ever consider a challenge a bad thing is if the challenge is against an OP force... Which the table is not

Gellar fields are only ever broken when it serves the story the writer wants to tell. Just imagine an Eisenhorn or Space Wolves novel ending halfway through because gellar randomly failed and everyone got eaten by daemons while they were on route to some campaign where the actual plot is suppsoed to be resolved. ;]

There's a difference between "challenge" and "random crap happening".

If your opponent rolls badly on the table and loses his 300 point greater daemon or half his army on first turn, or gets -1 to his save at a crucial moment, resulting in far more of his units getting obliterated by shooting due to having only a 6++ save to fall back on, or simply kills a ton of his own units by rolling lots of 6s, how is that challenging?

Conversely, you can't really prepare for random daemon troops deep striking wherever they want, claiming or contesting objectives at the last turn of the game? There's no challenge there because you can't really circumvent this with skill. It's such a remote possibility it's far more likely not to happen, so trying to rpepare for it is pointless most of the time... And yet when it does happen it's devastating just because your opponent got lucky. It's a terrible, terrible mechanic.

Anyway, our opinion on what good game design is obviously differs too much. No point in discussing it further.

People should be greatful that they can field pyskers against demons at all. Imagine a game that allowed you to fight a tidal wave with raindrops.

Its just a game folks. Played with little plastic toys. Is the table really that bad, no its not. So you lose a psyker, so daemons take instability tests. These are things that happen in the game anyway.

Should we just not play at all.....

"Conversely, you can't really prepare for random daemon troops deep striking wherever they want, claiming or contesting objectives at the last turn of the game? "
Absurd claim to make.

You know where your objectives are. You know there is a chance a scoring unit could deepstrike down. You can work out, perfectly well, how to mitigate that eventuailty.

This has only been raised a few dozen times.

 BryllCream wrote:
People should be greatful that they can field pyskers against demons at all. Imagine a game that allowed you to fight a tidal wave with raindrops.

I like that visual. Nice comparison.

 Giganthrax wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Also, warp isn't all that dangerous to humans, either. Hell, as long as you got gellar fields on your boat, you can plow through the realm of the chaos gods with impunity. Sorry, not much scared of daemons who get hard-countered by a mass-produced machine.

Sorry, untrue, gellar fields can and are broken by daemons in the fluff. In fact, ever read the fluff for screamers of tzeentch? Their fluff says they can and do burrow through the field.

I like a challenge, the table gives me that.

I'm sorry if you don't like the table... but imho a challenge is never a bad thing, it's always good thing.*

*the only time I'd ever consider a challenge a bad thing is if the challenge is against an OP force... Which the table is not

Gellar fields are only ever broken when it serves the story the writer wants to tell. Just imagine an Eisenhorn or Space Wolves novel ending halfway through because gellar randomly failed and everyone got eaten by daemons while they were on route to some campaign where the actual plot is suppsoed to be resolved. ;]

There's a difference between "challenge" and "random crap happening".

If your opponent rolls badly on the table and loses his 300 point greater daemon or half his army on first turn, or gets -1 to his save at a crucial moment, resulting in far more of his units getting obliterated by shooting due to having only a 6++ save to fall back on, or simply kills a ton of his own units by rolling lots of 6s, how is that challenging?

Conversely, you can't really prepare for random daemon troops deep striking wherever they want, claiming or contesting objectives at the last turn of the game? There's no challenge there because you can't really circumvent this with skill. It's such a remote possibility it's far more likely not to happen, so trying to rpepare for it is pointless most of the time... And yet when it does happen it's devastating just because your opponent got lucky. It's a terrible, terrible mechanic.

Anyway, our opinion on what good game design is obviously differs too much. No point in discussing it further.

While I mostly agree with you, having an enemy scoring unit deep strike onto an objective on the final turn has been going on for a while. Examples being drop pods in the SM armies. And also terminators that are taken as troops.
A similar thing can happen with outflanking troops, if the objective is close enough to a table edge.

EDIT: These can be countered by sticking a unit onto the objective, or having some effect that is triggered on an enemy turn, or just taking other objectives.

Selym wrote:
While I mostly agree with you, having an enemy scoring unit deep strike onto an objective on the final turn has been going on for a while. Examples being drop pods in the SM armies. And also terminators that are taken as troops.
A similar thing can happen with outflanking troops, if the objective is close enough to a table edge.

EDIT: These can be countered by sticking a unit onto the objective, or having some effect that is triggered on an enemy turn, or just taking other objectives.

Err, no, this isn't true.

Half of your drop pods ALWAYS arrive on turn 1 via "drop pod assault" rule, while the rest arrive via standard reserve rules.

Standard reserve rules (they apply for deep striking, tunneling, and outflanking units as well) state that:
- turn 2, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 3, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 4, unit arrives automatically

Aside from a few specialist rules such as fliers that fly off the table and move into Ongoing Reserves or Chenkov's "Send in the next Wave" ability etc., it's pretty much impossible for a troop unit to arrive via deep strike from off-table after turn 4.

Warp Storm on the other hand gives you a free troops unit if you roll two 6s, that you can deep strike anywhere. If you're lucky enough this can happen repeatedly, turn after turn after turn (keep in mind a certain warlord trait can reroll the result on the table, making it highly unlikely you get an unfavorable result). Imagine playing a relic mission, having a huge battle in the middle where most of both armies die, grabbing the relic, getting it deep into your deployment zone with your last remaining 2 marines, and then he randomly gets a bunch of pink horrors who deep strike next to the relic and murder the marines holding it with 2d6 str5 shots. OR play with two objectives, one in each deployment zone, both of you are dug in, it's going towards a draw or perhaps a win due to linebreaker/slay the warlord/first blood, and then your opponent gets a free troops unit that deep strikes on turn 6, contests your objective, game ends, you lose. Really fun & cinematic, huh?

Now, this isn't a problem when you play pickup games with buddies, but imagine playing vs a total stranger at a tournament or in a league, actually doing your best to win, and then loosing or drawing because of this garbage?

 Giganthrax wrote:

Selym wrote:
While I mostly agree with you, having an enemy scoring unit deep strike onto an objective on the final turn has been going on for a while. Examples being drop pods in the SM armies. And also terminators that are taken as troops.
A similar thing can happen with outflanking troops, if the objective is close enough to a table edge.

EDIT: These can be countered by sticking a unit onto the objective, or having some effect that is triggered on an enemy turn, or just taking other objectives.

Err, no, this isn't true.

Half of your drop pods ALWAYS arrive on turn 1 via "drop pod assault" rule, while the rest arrive via standard reserve rules.

Standard reserve rules (they apply for deep striking, tunneling, and outflanking units as well) state that:
- turn 2, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 3, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 4, unit arrives automatically

Aside from a few specialist rules such as fliers that fly off the table and move into Ongoing Reserves or Chenkov's "Send in the next Wave" ability etc., it's pretty much impossible for a troop unit to arrive via deep strike from off-table after turn 4.

Warp Storm on the other hand gives you a free troops unit if you roll two 6s, that you can deep strike anywhere. If you're lucky enough this can happen repeatedly, turn after turn after turn (keep in mind a certain warlord trait can reroll the result on the table, making it highly unlikely you get an unfavorable result). Imagine playing a relic mission, having a huge battle in the middle where most of both armies die, grabbing the relic, getting it deep into your deployment zone with your last remaining 2 marines, and then he randomly gets a bunch of pink horrors who deep strike next to the relic and murder the marines holding it with 2d6 str5 shots. OR play with two objectives, one in each deployment zone, both of you are dug in, it's going towards a draw or perhaps a win due to linebreaker/slay the warlord/first blood, and then your opponent gets a free troops unit that deep strikes on turn 6, contests your objective, game ends, you lose. Really fun & cinematic, huh?

Now, this isn't a problem when you play pickup games with buddies, but imagine playing vs a total stranger at a tournament or in a league, actually doing your best to win, and then loosing or drawing because of this garbage?

Even if these where the cases you do have ways of stopping it. just plan accordingly and bubble wrap the objective so they cant get within 3", and you can dtw pink horrors shooting (right?)
the table isnt a i win you lose button that everyone seems to be scared of. all of those random blasts full scatter, play aggressive when invul drop, turtle abit when invul goes up, and stick your psychers in a vehicle.

all very basic actions that can be taken to mitigate them effects.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Conversely, you can't really prepare for random daemon troops deep striking wherever they want, claiming or contesting objectives at the last turn of the game? "
Absurd claim to make.

You know where your objectives are. You know there is a chance a scoring unit could deepstrike down. You can work out, perfectly well, how to mitigate that eventuailty.

This has only been raised a few dozen times.

If you have enough forces to prevent this scenario from occurring, then the outcome of the game is already certain before they roll. It's the games where it was closer than that where mitigation becomes rather more difficult.

Qui-Gon Jinn wrote:
I am finding this thread to really be circling the drain because NOTHING new has been added to an argument that has gone on 10 pages, and we are harping on the same points rehashed again and again and again. Allow me to summarize what I have seen people bitching about.

Stuff...

It exists. Whether it is good or bad for 40k, what does it matter? I'm getting sick of all of this "I can't hear you la la la" bs that everyone is doing. Nothing new in 10 pages.

The Warpstorm table is NOT going away. It is NOT going to disappear until the next time they re-do Chaos Daemons in 10 years time.

Get. Over. It.

This is funny stuff! Here's a hint - since this thread is offending your sensibilities...Quit. Reading. It.

I like the solution proposed to a last turn appearance of random scoring units, too! Of course you can stop them! Just overwhelming saturate the table with forces to prevent the enemy from challenging the objectives!! Sheer genius! Why haven't REAL generals adopted such a brilliant strategy?

I don't have a problem with chaos being chaotic. I don't play chaos and none of the players in my regular group play chaos, and unfortunately the guy interested in starting it lost interest with this last codex. But his point overall was he wanted to run his army without feeling the need to either build extra random forces or be penalized by GW's clever, random rules. Such is life.

But you don't need to saturate the object...

you just need enough to keep them from deep striking in 3" that is all if your talking about last second grabs.

To the basic question. is random bad for 40k? no.

is Over powered random bad? yes.

is the warp storm table over powered? no.
the majority of these effect happen less than 10% of the rolls and even then you will generally need 6s for it do anything. will something really silly happen once in a while? yes. (still cant believe my opponents unstoppable iron armed hq got punished off the board at the last second of the game)

IMHO its not the end of the world and it is not nearly as bad. the only thing i will say that i dislike about the warp storm table is that it adds about 10 minutes total to every game for extra rolling.

Given our preception on GW, I'm surprised GW didn't take the oppotunity to write the warpstorm rules like 'roll for warpstorm on each shooting phase, if the daemon player doesn't like the result he can reroll once each turn by handing a fiver to the FLAG owner.'

I dislike the Daemonc Instability chart more, to be honest.

Losing your Psyker HQ to the Warp Storm Chart is one thing.

Losing an entire unit of Bloodletters because they failed their DI test is another.

While both make a bit of sense fluff-wise, it does make for a hard army to play competitively, I think. We'll see.

I dunno what kinda armies you guys play or against what opponents, but if by the end of the game you have so many living units on the table that you can just have them standing around up to 5 objectives, then chances are you've already steamrolled your daemon opponent.

The objective and free troops thing is just an example, too. Imagine being 5-5 in VP, or 4-5 (in your favor), and then opponent gets possession roll on the table, kills your swarmlord with it, and wins/draws due to slay the warlord?

In short: nobody is saying the warp storm table is overpowered. It's however potentially game changing in the worst possible way, as well as too random to plan for. Terrible mechanic overall.

 Giganthrax wrote:

Selym wrote:
While I mostly agree with you, having an enemy scoring unit deep strike onto an objective on the final turn has been going on for a while. Examples being drop pods in the SM armies. And also terminators that are taken as troops.
A similar thing can happen with outflanking troops, if the objective is close enough to a table edge.

EDIT: These can be countered by sticking a unit onto the objective, or having some effect that is triggered on an enemy turn, or just taking other objectives.

Err, no, this isn't true.

Half of your drop pods ALWAYS arrive on turn 1 via "drop pod assault" rule, while the rest arrive via standard reserve rules.

Standard reserve rules (they apply for deep striking, tunneling, and outflanking units as well) state that:
- turn 2, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 3, on 3+ unit arrives
- turn 4, unit arrives automatically

Aside from a few specialist rules such as fliers that fly off the table and move into Ongoing Reserves or Chenkov's "Send in the next Wave" ability etc., it's pretty much impossible for a troop unit to arrive via deep strike from off-table after turn 4.

Warp Storm on the other hand gives you a free troops unit if you roll two 6s, that you can deep strike anywhere. If you're lucky enough this can happen repeatedly, turn after turn after turn (keep in mind a certain warlord trait can reroll the result on the table, making it highly unlikely you get an unfavorable result). Imagine playing a relic mission, having a huge battle in the middle where most of both armies die, grabbing the relic, getting it deep into your deployment zone with your last remaining 2 marines, and then he randomly gets a bunch of pink horrors who deep strike next to the relic and murder the marines holding it with 2d6 str5 shots. OR play with two objectives, one in each deployment zone, both of you are dug in, it's going towards a draw or perhaps a win due to linebreaker/slay the warlord/first blood, and then your opponent gets a free troops unit that deep strikes on turn 6, contests your objective, game ends, you lose. Really fun & cinematic, huh?

Now, this isn't a problem when you play pickup games with buddies, but imagine playing vs a total stranger at a tournament or in a league, actually doing your best to win, and then loosing or drawing because of this garbage?

Okay, so I was wrong about deep striking on the last turn, but overall I was agreeing with the fact that the table is a mix of gamebreaking, and making tactics (and even actual gameplay) totally redundant.

I know. I just felt a need to state it to illustrate how gamebreaking this table can be. Sorry if it came off as an attack against you. :]

 Giganthrax wrote:
I know. I just felt a need to state it to illustrate how gamebreaking this table can be. Sorry if it came off as an attack against you. :]

'Salright, I would probably have done a similar post in you position

Have played two games vs the New Demons with my Sternguard Vet drop pod army and lost the first one with no little part to this table. However during the 2nd game he rolled something along the lines where he has instability and each unit takes a LD test and bad things happen, well needless to say he practically nuked two of his units . Oh and in the 2nd game as well (same player as the first game) my Sternguard slaughtered his Demon Prince since it only has a 3+ armor save (and the fact they have to start on the table as a regular army which does help alot of us get that needed first shooting round). Will probably play him with my Elysian IG this weekend.

Now to be honest I am not to big a fan of the Warp Storm table only because it seems to be too friendly and forgiving to demon players, however outside that I dont have an issue with it. In fact I actually enjoy the idea of how the army fits the fluff. I can just imagine my IG battling Demons and pulling out a surprise win thanks to the warp getting tricky or to see my brave defenders hope fade as even more demons appear to slaughter some mortals in the name of their god. The overall point I am trying to make is that yes it can be frustrating, but guess what its there so we might as well get used to facing it. Personally I am looking at an allied character with a null rod to help with the demon shinanigans

A chaotic chart for a chaotic army???

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

from what i have read so far the warp storm chart is a trollers dream aand has everybody forgotten how random orcs are all this means is players who wanted to play a random army but didnt want to have to put up with a bs2 can now do so

 muagenreaper wrote:
from what i have read so far the warp storm chart is a trollers dream aand has everybody forgotten how random orcs are all this means is players who wanted to play a random army but didnt want to have to put up with a bs2 can now do so

Except for the fact that daemons usually dont even get to shoot, due to being mostly melee, and the fact that ork randomness in no way impedes tactical gameplay, is balanced out by sheer expendability, and is almost always avoidable.

 Giganthrax wrote:
I dunno what kinda armies you guys play or against what opponents, but if by the end of the game you have so many living units on the table that you can just have them standing around up to 5 objectives, then chances are you've already steamrolled your daemon opponent.

The objective and free troops thing is just an example, too. Imagine being 5-5 in VP, or 4-5 (in your favor), and then opponent gets possession roll on the table, kills your swarmlord with it, and wins/draws due to slay the warlord?

In short: nobody is saying the warp storm table is overpowered. It's however potentially game changing in the worst possible way, as well as too random to plan for. Terrible mechanic overall.

If you're so worried about your Psyker giving away the 'Slay the Warlord' point, then when possible, don't make a psyker your Warlord when you play against Daemons!
If you can't avoid it, then take more psykers to make it that much harder for your Warlord to get picked on...
There's also the possiblility that FnP might work against possession. (as it's not a saving throw) The question is does 'remove from play' automatically trigger 'lose all your wounds' which is when FnP would kick in.

As for late game objective grabing? Just another case in point to always make Daemons players go first when you win the roll-off for 1st turn! As long as you still have a turn of your own to react to, it's not an auto-win for the Daemon player to get an additional unit late game.
Besides, the odds of the Daemon player getting;
- a roll of 12 on the Warpstorm table
- rolling an 11 or 12 to get a survivable unit of 14-15 models
- sticking their Deep Strike roll on a 'Hit! in order to auto-contest/claim said objective'

I'm no mathhammerer, but those odds seem to be quite far fetched to claim the table is "OMG! Worst games design evah!!!"
And if your opponent brought extra Plaguebearers to take better advantage of that random result... Erm, can your army take template weapons/ignores cover type weapons? Maybe it's time for non-Daemon players to start packing a couple of those when heading off to events in order to be better prepared?!


The Warpstorm table is no worse a mechanic than Barrage weapons which can indescriminately kill random crap within a massive 24" bubble!
I've lost games because I thought my dudes were safely tucked away in combat until, oops, in comes that barrage which just scattered 12" from its actual target and just blew my Warlord and his entire unit off the table...

The odds of that happening against an IG army w/barrage weapons is pretty much the same as similar happening when up against Daemons. Yet I don't see a massive hate-thread about barrage weapons ruining 40k anywhere...

Experiment 626 wrote:
The Warpstorm table is no worse a mechanic than Barrage weapons which can indescriminately kill random crap within a massive 24" bubble!

Flat out wrong. You choose to fire a barrage weapon and you choose where to fire it. If there's a chance to hit your own units than that's a risk you take vs the reward of hitting your intended target and causing damage.

The Warp Storm chart is nothing at all like that, as it happens independent of the actions of both players, and can change the course of the game with no counter. It's also imbalanced (bell curve results affecting certain God-specific forces more than other) and it encourages mono-God play.

 Formosa wrote:
A chaotic chart for a chaotic army???

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Clearly you didn't read the thread.

 muagenreaper wrote:
from what i have read so far the warp storm chart is a trollers dream aand has everybody forgotten how random orcs are all this means is players who wanted to play a random army but didnt want to have to put up with a bs2 can now do so

So Orks have a table where their units can occasionally run off the table, or where certain units just take wounds for no apparent reason, or where units of Orks just appear out of thin air?

No? They don't have this?

Well, isn't it a fair statement that the table can have as evil an effect as, say... The LARGE PLASMA BLAST that Dark angels just got. It isn't any more impactful (from the enemy perspective) than the CHAOS HELDRAKE which took out 25 Purifiers in one game against me (I did win that game by the way). It isn't more impactful to the ENEMY than say, the Imperial Guard Manticore hitting dead on 3 times against your multi-wound Beastmaster or Grotesque squad.

And what of Njal who essentially can fire off a ton of game changing powers near the end of the game ? So i do think this warp Storm chart is going to affect some games and I think there wil be times when BOTH players will be cursing it but then... There's a lot of things in a lot of armys that kinda make you angry.

I'm not going to like it when I get zapped, but I'm gonna like git when the enemy takes it in the face, in a tourney or not.

Having actually played a game with Chaos Daemons, and having lost the game to two things, the warp storm table and a Necron Nightscythe that effectively just flew off the table ever 2 rounds until the end and it dropped a scoring unit on the relic, I can honestly say that I absolutely LOVED the experience.

Truly, all this moaning about how broken the table is, how many of you have actually played a game using CD? In seven turns, I got the increased invulnerable save twice, the decreased save once, 2 of the wrath of the gods results, one Nothing Happens result, and the ever fateful Warp is Receeding (or whatever its called). That roll more or less cost me the game because I had a sizable unit of daemonettes within easy charge range of my opponents last scoring unit (holding the relic no less). I rolled snake eyes on the table, and then box cars on the daemonettes. And you know what? I laughed my ass off. My opponent felt bad for me, but I took it all in stride because THAT is the way Chaos should work, nothing is ever certain until the game is over. I still had a chance to pull off the victory even, but failed a charge roll with my bloodletters. It was easily the most fun I've had playing 6th edition.

That is very… strange. Played versus Chaos Daemons once with my IG. Still got my ass kicked, but the Warp Storm chart… well, this is new.
EDIT: Doesn't mean I'm against it. In fact, it seems very interesting and something I'd love to experiment with.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well, isn't it a fair statement that the table can have as evil an effect as, say... The LARGE PLASMA BLAST that Dark angels just got. It isn't any more impactful (from the enemy perspective) than the CHAOS HELDRAKE which took out 25 Purifiers in one game against me (I did win that game by the way). It isn't more impactful to the ENEMY than say, the Imperial Guard Manticore hitting dead on 3 times against your multi-wound Beastmaster or Grotesque squad.

Irrelevant. Those are choices made by the player, and they pay points for them. Whether they're paying enough points for them is a different (and inconsequential for this topic) debate. The Warp Storm chart is something that every game with Daemons has, and it has nothing to do with choice (outside of choosing to play daemons).

 Jancoran wrote:
And what of Njal who essentially can fire off a ton of game changing powers near the end of the game ? So i do think this warp Storm chart is going to affect some games and I think there wil be times when BOTH players will be cursing it but then... There's a lot of things in a lot of armys that kinda make you angry.

Again, Njal is a choice. He may not be there, and (we hope) that his abilities are reflected in his points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
That roll more or less cost me the game...

Need we say any more? A game was lost not because of any action (or inaction) taken by the players, the tactics played, the strategies involved, the army choices, the scenario, the objectives - none of that - but all because of a roll on a table no one can control, change, affect, or use.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
...but I took it all in stride because THAT is the way Chaos should work...

Really? You think it's fair that you can play the whole game, as you did, and then just lose because of nothing you or your opponent did because some random result on a table caused you to lose the game? That's the way Chaos is 'meant' to be? Are you frickin' insane?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Flat out wrong. You choose to fire a barrage weapon and you choose where to fire it. If there's a chance to hit your own units than that's a risk you take vs the reward of hitting your intended target and causing damage.

The Warp Storm chart is nothing at all like that, as it happens independent of the actions of both players, and can change the course of the game with no counter. It's also imbalanced (bell curve results affecting certain God-specific forces more than other) and it encourages mono-God play.

Player A chose to play demons, fully in the knowledge that the inherent element of randomness in the faction may be a double edged sword. The reward potentially being the enemy psyker gets wrecked early game (a strong anti-psyker ability for the forces of Chaos? Surely this is madness, only the Imperium has mastered the psychic hood after all...)

Decent generals adapt to a changing situation, amateurs throw their toys out on release week.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The Warpstorm table is no worse a mechanic than Barrage weapons which can indescriminately kill random crap within a massive 24" bubble!

Flat out wrong. You choose to fire a barrage weapon and you choose where to fire it. If there's a chance to hit your own units than that's a risk you take vs the reward of hitting your intended target and causing damage.

The Warp Storm chart is nothing at all like that, as it happens independent of the actions of both players, and can change the course of the game with no counter. It's also imbalanced (bell curve results affecting certain God-specific forces more than other) and it encourages mono-God play.

No! Read what I said again please. My opponent fired their barrage weapon. I had 0 control over it. I made no choice at all except to watch the shot scatter 12" in a 100% random direction which then pooched my Walord and his entire unit that I'd safely stuck into an assault so they couldn't get shot.
How is this ANY different than my Daemons rolling up +1 to their saves for a single turn? Or me being able to randomly put down 5-15 grunts who die like flies to bolters? Or being able to randomly pooch an enemy psyker as part of my army's newfound psychic defenses?!

And if you think the Warpstorm table is ment to focus Daemons players into mono-god armies, then you're only proving that you haven't even read the rules for it since we can control that aspect of it.
Same deal with 1,1 result - Daemon players can easily mitigate the impact of such a roll, especially from pooching our army at the start of the game!

And as a Daemon player, I can somewhat control the Warpstorm table as well. If I'm really worried about it, I can take Fateweaver and be asured of a re-roll if the first rolls sucks. Or else I can roll up the relevent Warlord trait, or even gain "Re-roll failed Instatbility Tests within 12" trait.



I dare say there are plenty of far, far worse things in the game than this new Warpstorm table... (Warp Quake for one which forced me to outright shelve my entire army for almost 2 years would qualify, yes?!)

Before you declare it the worst thing to have ever happened to 40k, why don't you first give it a couple of goes in some actual games and see for yourself?

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You know where your objectives are. You know there is a chance a scoring unit could deepstrike down. You can work out, perfectly well, how to mitigate that eventuailty.

If you have enough forces to prevent this scenario from occurring, then the outcome of the game is already certain before they roll. It's the games where it was closer than that where mitigation becomes rather more difficult.

It's not all that hard, especially if you choose to go second, as you normally should. Even if you can't screen off all of them, you can screen off some, and position to shoot at daemons popping up and going for others. The daemon player's also got to hope for a decent scatter roll and/or run move. It's certainly possible for a new unit out of nowhere to win the game, but I don't know if I'll ever see it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never said that "Random = bad" (I said random =/= Chaos, which is true). Random is fine as long as there are limitations. Risk vs reward would be a good thing. If the Warp Storm table was the result of the player/s doing something, so you had the choice of gaining XYZ effect or perhaps incurring the wrath of the Chaos Gods, then fine.

This is a question of taste. For my money, while I appreciate the metagame argument that people prefer mechanics where they can exercise control and make decisions about what risks to incur, in terms of fluff I honestly think the table better represents the capriciousness of the chaos gods. Most of this game involves calculated decisions, but the gods don't care about our calculations and they defy our attempts to control them. They do not give a flying F about their followers or about their opponents, and the way they choose to exert influence or “reward” even their devoted followers often bears no resemblance to what might be good for those followers. Remember, these are the same guys who are just as happy to turn a servant into a spawn as a daemon prince. IMO having a chart representing that the Chaos gods may help you or harm you entirely at their whim and without you having any control over it is much more in keeping with how those gods are described than having a chart you could choose to activate or not activate if you the player are risk-averse. Instead, GW is telling us we need to ride out the storm and deal with it. The gods help or hurt me at their discretion, not mine (though the book does give the daemon player options which can give him a little bit of control, to reduce the risks).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But this is a core mechanic that no one has any control over, it hampers everyone, it can end games before they start and - worst of all - it actually encourages mono-God play.

IMO these are inaccurate statements. First, the daemon player CAN exercise a bit of control over it, and one of the ways to do that is specifically to avoid going mono-god. Read the rules for instruments. Second, the idea that it can end games before they start is so extremely remote a chance that I don’t think it’s a valid point of argument. Certainly the chances of it doing so are substantially smaller than the chances of Warp Quake doing so, or of a bad scatter & mishap or two doing so, even without Warp Quake. IMO just by changing their mode of deployment, the new book actually presents LESS chance of ending the game or crippling the daemon player as they start. Warp Storm is actually less of an issue in that regard than the old Daemonic Assault rule was.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The psychic power tables are a good example of random because they are risk vs reward. You roll for a power you really like, but you take the chance of getting something you don't want or just the base power. That's excellent implementation. The fact that they did that for all the daemonic wargear choices was 100% unnecessary (and adds nothing but more tedious dice rolling to the game) but at least they chose the same model as the psychic powers, with a base item you can choose if you want or if you don't like what you rolled. If only the Warlord Table had gone the same way (eg. Primaris Warlord - May add +1 to a single Reserve roll per turn).

I thought they did a great job with the rewards, giving each a guaranteed good result if you want to default on it, and the chance of various other useful goodies, some of which are amazing. The fact that you get choice of two different magic weapon profiles is nice too; simple and good Etherblade or the god-specific options. The fact that you generate these before each game is actually useful as well, as you can decide if you need the AP2 or grab something else. Of course, there are also the nice predicable, reliable Loci as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Armchair analysts", "aren't actually good", "don't really understand", "pretend the sky is falling". These are all ways of attacking the person and not the argument. You've even made a "No Real Scotsman" fallacy with the "good competitive players" line. Remember what I said about attacking someone else's argument and not the person making the argument? You just failed at it.

I’m sorry if you took that personally. I don’t think you’re one of the ones screaming hyperbole; I said those guys are part of the problem, and there have certainly been one or two of those in this thread. Some of them like to present themselves like they’re the voice of competitive play and competitive players, which is manifestly not the case. Multiple people have tried to attribute the disagreement over whether the chart is good or bad for the game as a disagreement between players who don't care about competitive play and those who do, which is both inaccurate and silly.

A number of folks have been guilty of overgeneralization, and I apologize if I’m one of them, but I thought I qualified my remarks reasonably. Evidently not. I know a fair few very good players in real life; guys who regularly feature at the top of various national and international events, and they simply do not throw their toys out of the pram the way some of the folks on forums or blogs do. People who play the game competively IRL adapt to this stuff without crying about it. I believe there's a combination of factors at work when people overreact about this stuff online; part of it is just Internet Anonymity Syndrome, and part of it is bloggers consciously stirring up controvery to drive clicks and ad revenue. And some of it's just plain lack of perspective and the recurring "what are we freaking about this time" discussion accompanying most new codices.

MarsNZ wrote:
Player A chose to play demons, fully in the knowledge that the inherent element of randomness in the faction may be a double edged sword. The reward potentially being the enemy psyker gets wrecked early game (a strong anti-psyker ability for the forces of Chaos? Surely this is madness, only the Imperium has mastered the psychic hood after all...)

Not even close to the same thing. Units within armies are balanced (or should be, or would be, in a perfect world) based upon their cost and the relative size of the game. This is an overall special rule that affects both players, without any way to affect it or mitigate it***. You cannot say that the risk for choosing to play daemons is losing the odd game because of nothing you or your opponent did.

Imagine if they put in a rule for Necrons that said "At the end of the game roll 3d6. On a triple your army phases out and you lose." no matter the result of the game itself. That's what this table is like - something utterly unrelated to the choices and actions of anyone involved in the game that can result in a complete reversal of the game's result, and there's nothing you can do about it.


***Except by avoiding the armies that use units affected by the 6 and 8 result on the table, and really just playing all Slaanesh or... I think Nurgle... Nurgle is the 5 result yes? Or Tzeentch? I know Slaanesh is 9, and will be affected by the table less than Khorne (who are 8 I believe) and the 6 result.

MarsNZ wrote:
Decent generals adapt to a changing situation, amateurs throw their toys out on release week.

And mature people attempting to have a discussion/argument don't throw out broad generalisations in lieu of a proper argument.



I don't have time to reply in full, but this caught my eye:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Warp Storm is actually less of an issue in that regard than the old Daemonic Assault rule was.

"The other one was worse" doesn't excuse this one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Imagine if they put in a rule for Necrons that said "At the end of the game roll 3d6. On a triple your army phases out and you lose." no matter the result of the game itself. That's what this table is like - something utterly unrelated to the choices and actions of anyone involved in the game that can result in a complete reversal of the game's result, and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'd rather imagine you make an argument that doesn't imply a single 1/11 chance will ruin 40k

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And mature people attempting to have a discussion/argument don't throw out broad generalisations in lieu of a proper argument.

Yeah, target maturity when you're the one implying the sky is falling upon seeing a codex that's not even a week old.

Choice isn't the point. The points for the Warp Storm are included in the army as a whole.

What used to look like 17 KP's on average is now like 13. Some of it isn't because of cost, but some of it is. They reduced stats on many things and the cost didn't go down AS much as you'd have thought it would. 53 points for a Beast of Nurgle isn't TERRIBLE but I dont think you can say it's entirely cheap either when similar units are 30-40 points now in other armies.

I am torn on this. I want to be REASONABLE instead of being UNreasonable about my critique and I see 50% of the time being good, other times being bad... So the only part that one CAN complain about as the opponent is the bad to YOU. But if it's effectively a weapon you can use about 2-3 times per game against the enemy, whats that worth in points? How sucky did they make Pink Horrors to compensate? And so on.

So I dunno. It doesn't seem totally unfair to me. I'll gird myself for when it goes against me, and make sure the game isn't even close. then it wont matter at all.

I think everyone is blowing this out of proportion. I've played two games against demons (2 different lists, one with allies one pure) and warp storm didn't do all that much. He rolled the psyker instagib thingy, but I play orks with no psyker so no harm there. He lost a champion once. Mostly it was rolls that mattered little once it was pointed out whatever thing was nullified.

I did like when his unit ended up giving my nobz on bikes a 4+ FNP which turned around to bite him in the butt when my warbiker nob killed bloodthirster in a challenge. And that demonic instability can wreck units MUCH more often than it can give units back (box cars removes whole units)

What I DON'T like about the new Demons? Takes damn near 30 mins of rolling for gifts on random charts before we can even start deploying forces, plus all the psyker powers, etc.

Our two fights ended in tabling. I tabled the pure list, He tabled me with the allied list. It came down to who had first turn more than anything else.

The battles were a LOT more fun though. I enjoyed playing against this version of demons a lot more than playing against the WAAC lists of Epi or fateweaver or flamer/screamer spam.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The Warpstorm table is no worse a mechanic than Barrage weapons which can indescriminately kill random crap within a massive 24" bubble!

Flat out wrong. You choose to fire a barrage weapon and you choose where to fire it. If there's a chance to hit your own units than that's a risk you take vs the reward of hitting your intended target and causing damage.

The Warp Storm chart is nothing at all like that, as it happens independent of the actions of both players, and can change the course of the game with no counter. It's also imbalanced (bell curve results affecting certain God-specific forces more than other) and it encourages mono-God play.

No! Read what I said again please. My opponent fired their barrage weapon. I had 0 control over it. I made no choice at all except to watch the shot scatter 12" in a 100% random direction which then pooched my Walord and his entire unit that I'd safely stuck into an assault so they couldn't get shot.
How is this ANY different than my Daemons rolling up +1 to their saves for a single turn? Or me being able to randomly put down 5-15 grunts who die like flies to bolters? Or being able to randomly pooch an enemy psyker as part of my army's newfound psychic defenses?!

And if you think the Warpstorm table is ment to focus Daemons players into mono-god armies, then you're only proving that you haven't even read the rules for it since we can control that aspect of it.
Same deal with 1,1 result - Daemon players can easily mitigate the impact of such a roll, especially from pooching our army at the start of the game!

And as a Daemon player, I can somewhat control the Warpstorm table as well. If I'm really worried about it, I can take Fateweaver and be asured of a re-roll if the first rolls sucks. Or else I can roll up the relevent Warlord trait, or even gain "Re-roll failed Instatbility Tests within 12" trait.



I dare say there are plenty of far, far worse things in the game than this new Warpstorm table... (Warp Quake for one which forced me to outright shelve my entire army for almost 2 years would qualify, yes?!)

Before you declare it the worst thing to have ever happened to 40k, why don't you first give it a couple of goes in some actual games and see for yourself?

Because the artillery can be countered by killing the firing unit. You opponent paid for its use. There was a choice you had to kill it, which you did not take. That's how.

It's always been the case that if you play chaos, there will be an element of random, this is nothing new.

In the first book, we had a random d100 chart for effects.

In the book before this one, we split our army in two, and rolled a D6. On a 3-6, we get the side we strategised for. On a 1-2, the god's disagreed and we got the bad half.

Only, rather than simply punishing the player of daemons, it now punishes both, on average it punished the daemon player a little bit more, but not so much that it will swing any game.

And I like that. In this game, you play a commander of an army. Only, the commander of a daemon army, isn't king of the hierarchy, and so the few random element's, simulate the effect of the chaos god's themselves influencing the game. While you have most of the authority, they can tweak it here and there.

Beleive me, once you have actually played against the chart, you willl find itt's less likely to swing the tide of the game than a mysterious objective roll. People saying "Oh, the army play's itself. Rabble rabble rabble"

No. One tiny, infinitesimal part of the army play's itself, and no matter how well you roll, your opponent could never blame his loss on the warpstorm chart, without me just rolling my eyes.

Ps. If you have a psyker that is your ace in the hole, that you just can't risk getting killed...I'm gonna send half my army after it anyway, so never mind the chart.

Very minor point - the original table in Realms of Chaos was D1000 not D100 IIRC

You people make this almost too easy sometimes...

MarsNZ wrote:
I'd rather imagine you make an argument that doesn't imply a single 1/11 chance will ruin 40k

I never said it would ruin 40K. Don't put words in my mouth.

MarsNZ wrote:
Yeah, target maturity when you're the one implying the sky is falling upon seeing a codex that's not even a week old.

I never said the sky was falling. Don't put words in my mouth.

When you've got a cogent argument, and not a barn full'o'straw, get back to me.

Evileyes wrote:It's always been the case that if you play chaos, there will be an element of random, this is nothing new.

Re-read the thread. We're not arguing over randomness. We're arguing over a table that affects the game every turn, is uncounterable, can change the game completely, has no risk vs reward elements, hampers both players, has an unbalanced bell-curve effect that arbitrarily impacts certain types of daemons more than others whilst encouraging mono-God play. At no point in that does it just boil down to something simplistic like "random = bad", something I and many others here have been trying to get across for many pages yet you people simply refuse to listen.

Selym wrote:Because the artillery can be countered by killing the firing unit. You opponent paid for its use. There was a choice you had to kill it, which you did not take. That's how.

Exactly. D'ya think he'll get it this time?

I hate all the randomness of 6th, not even just because it's nonsense to roll a dice before I can even scratch my own ass.

It's the fact that pick up games take forever to play now. Under 5th I could get a game done in 1~2 hours for 1500 points.

Now games get dragged onwards of up to 4 hours because "Well you landed in MYSTERIOUS WATER, better roll!"

"Hmmm, you'll need to roll a warlord trait"

"You'll need to generate your powers too"

"charge range 2d6"

That's the arbitrary stuff, then it gets better with all the frikkin book keeping, I used to have all codexes memorized now I can't even begin to tell anyone upgrades and rules without referring back. And keeping track of who has what.

It's just annoying, and I don't very much like it. It is handled haphazardly and detracts from enjoying the game. If I go to have a good day of wrecking face, I don't want an endless RNG exercise I want to smash face.

I partly agree with the above, generally I like 6th edition but all pre-game rolling is really a drag. We often just ignore all mysterious terrain, and sometimes also Warlord traits. Looking at new Daemon Codex, I can say that Daemons are not the army for me - when I play, I want to build my army at home beforehand, not roll what kind of army it is before & during the game and then keep track of all the modifiers. I find that really annoying.

Of course, I also hated previous Daemon codex, probably worst designed book of all 4th/5th edition so it's not really a loss for me.

Experiment 626 wrote:
If you're so worried about your Psyker giving away the 'Slay the Warlord' point, then when possible, don't make a psyker your Warlord when you play against Daemons!
If you can't avoid it, then take more psykers to make it that much harder for your Warlord to get picked on...
There's also the possiblility that FnP might work against possession. (as it's not a saving throw) The question is does 'remove from play' automatically trigger 'lose all your wounds' which is when FnP would kick in.

As for late game objective grabing? Just another case in point to always make Daemons players go first when you win the roll-off for 1st turn! As long as you still have a turn of your own to react to, it's not an auto-win for the Daemon player to get an additional unit late game.
Besides, the odds of the Daemon player getting;
- a roll of 12 on the Warpstorm table
- rolling an 11 or 12 to get a survivable unit of 14-15 models
- sticking their Deep Strike roll on a 'Hit! in order to auto-contest/claim said objective'

I'm no mathhammerer, but those odds seem to be quite far fetched to claim the table is "OMG! Worst games design evah!!!"
And if your opponent brought extra Plaguebearers to take better advantage of that random result... Erm, can your army take template weapons/ignores cover type weapons? Maybe it's time for non-Daemon players to start packing a couple of those when heading off to events in order to be better prepared?!


The Warpstorm table is no worse a mechanic than Barrage weapons which can indescriminately kill random crap within a massive 24" bubble!
I've lost games because I thought my dudes were safely tucked away in combat until, oops, in comes that barrage which just scattered 12" from its actual target and just blew my Warlord and his entire unit off the table...

The odds of that happening against an IG army w/barrage weapons is pretty much the same as similar happening when up against Daemons. Yet I don't see a massive hate-thread about barrage weapons ruining 40k anywhere...

You either aren't capable of comprehending what I'm talking about, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Sorry, no point in repeating myself. Nothing you wrote there displays any understanding of what I wrote earlier.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Re-read the thread. We're not arguing over randomness. We're arguing over a table that affects the game every turn, is uncounterable, can change the game completely, has no risk vs reward elements, hampers both players, has an unbalanced bell-curve effect that arbitrarily impacts certain types of daemons more than others whilst encouraging mono-God play. At no point in that does it just boil down to something simplistic like "random = bad", something I and many others here have been trying to get across for many pages yet you people simply refuse to listen.

I think its less of an issue of those people refusing to listen and more of an issue of those people simply disagreeing with you. Are we not allowed to have an opinion or do we just have to agree with you?

I like the warp storm table because I think it's fun and fluffy and make the game interesting. You don't like the warp storm table because of all the reasons you mentioned. Maybe we should just leave it at that instead of presenting opinions as facts and talking down to people because they disagree?

 Mannahnin wrote:
A number of folks have been guilty of overgeneralization, and I apologize if I’m one of them, but I thought I qualified my remarks reasonably. Evidently not. I know a fair few very good players in real life; guys who regularly feature at the top of various national and international events, and they simply do not throw their toys out of the pram the way some of the folks on forums or blogs do. People who play the game competively IRL adapt to this stuff without crying about it. I believe there's a combination of factors at work when people overreact about this stuff online; part of it is just Internet Anonymity Syndrome, and part of it is bloggers consciously stirring up controvery to drive clicks and ad revenue. And some of it's just plain lack of perspective and the recurring "what are we freaking about this time" discussion accompanying most new codices.

And that is an outstanding paragraph.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You people make this almost too easy sometimes...

Evileyes wrote:It's always been the case that if you play chaos, there will be an element of random, this is nothing new.

Re-read the thread. We're not arguing over randomness. We're arguing over a table that affects the game every turn, is uncounterable, can change the game completely, has no risk vs reward elements, hampers both players, has an unbalanced bell-curve effect that arbitrarily impacts certain types of daemons more than others whilst encouraging mono-God play. At no point in that does it just boil down to something simplistic like "random = bad", something I and many others here have been trying to get across for many pages yet you people simply refuse to listen.

And this is simply, part in part, of playing chaos. You don't like it, that's fine. I do, and others do. The fact that it's uncounterable, is it's great advantage. It's great disadvantage, is that it hurts yourself as much if not more.

I'm glad, they added something uncounterable. It's an advantage that few if any other armies have, even if it's just for a mostly weak, random effect each turn. It can give the daemon player unexpected advantages to take advantage of. If i'm scared of a unit because of a psyker with a force weapon being a risk to a multiwound model, and it just so happens I get lucky and that model vanishes, you use the random element to form an on-the-spot strategy. Suddenly, that squad is much weakened, giving you the oppertunity to charge.

Inversely, when your own HQ or similar dissapears, your enemy has a chance to strike. A skilled player can use this random element, to his advantage.

But I know. You are going to post "Why am I bothering, no one listen's, rabble rabble." So i'll simplify once more. You don't like it. I do. That doesn't mean it's bad, or good. We simply have different opinions. I think it's good for the game. You think it's bad for the game.

Selym wrote:Because the artillery can be countered by killing the firing unit. You opponent paid for its use. There was a choice you had to kill it, which you did not take. That's how.

Exactly. D'ya think he'll get it this time?

As above. The advantage is uncounterability. The disadvantage, is the unpredictability.

There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.

Dravenguild wrote:


That's the arbitrary stuff, then it gets better with all the frikkin book keeping, I used to have all codexes memorized now I can't even begin to tell anyone upgrades and rules without referring back. And keeping track of who has what.

It's just annoying, and I don't very much like it. It is handled haphazardly and detracts from enjoying the game. If I go to have a good day of wrecking face, I don't want an endless RNG exercise I want to smash face.

Have to agree. We've set upon house-ruling the game quite a bit, with an emphasis on intuitive play and keeping BOOKKEEPING to a minimum. It's hard to immerse yourself if you constantly have to refer to charts or refer to temporary worksheets to tell you what's happening in the game.

There are people disagreeing with the core points, and there are people who are kicking the crap out of strawmen while throwing in some ad hominem attacks.

The main complaint is that the warpstorm table is that it denies player agency, defined as: "A player with agency is one who is able to make meaningful decisions about their actions, with regards to the game world." (shamelessly stolen from http://www.paperspencils.com/2013/02/11/player-agency/)

There are a lot of features in 6th Edition that that decrease or remove player agency. Warlord traits are the worst, and the chaos boon table combined with mandatory challenges is in second place, and the psyker powers and daemonic gifts are bad (though at least they have a default you can choose if the roll doesn't go your way) but the Warpstorm table dials it up a notch.

The question for me is "Who should be in control of the game, the players or the dice?" GW seems to be coming down on the side that the dice should control the game and I think that's a bad thing.

I finally got my Daemon Codex yesterday in the mail.

I'm less concerned about the Warp Storm table than I am about the Warpfire ability that grants FNP to my opponent if they pass their Toughness Test. I'm only interested in running a small Tzeentch list to back up my CSM. This is worrisome to me!

Worrisome!

 Evileyes wrote:
There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.[/color]

ATSKNF is paid for, how can it not be? It's a USR that a model has, it has a benefit that can be measured and a price applied to it. It might not be fairly costed, but it's in the mix. Warpstorm, OTOH, is an armywide rule that comes not from any single model (like the Stormlord's ability) but from simply choosing Daemons as the primary force in the army. There's no way to have that included in the model price since a 500 point force of daemons could easily be primary or secondary. That's probably why they tried to split the table so it would be 50/50 help or harm, that way they could just say 'BALANCED!' and then not have to think about tagging a price cost on it. 'Course they still flubbed that up because the various godstomp powers aren't balanced probability-wise.

daveNYC wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.[/color]

ATSKNF is paid for, how can it not be? It's a USR that a model has, it has a benefit that can be measured and a price applied to it. It might not be fairly costed, but it's in the mix. Warpstorm, OTOH, is an armywide rule that comes not from any single model (like the Stormlord's ability) but from simply choosing Daemons as the primary force in the army. There's no way to have that included in the model price since a 500 point force of daemons could easily be primary or secondary. That's probably why they tried to split the table so it would be 50/50 help or harm, that way they could just say 'BALANCED!' and then not have to think about tagging a price cost on it. 'Course they still flubbed that up because the various godstomp powers aren't balanced probability-wise.

If you have looked at the prices, compared to the base abilities of our HQ's, you would know where Daemons pay for the Warp Storm Table.

Mohoc wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.[/color]

ATSKNF is paid for, how can it not be? It's a USR that a model has, it has a benefit that can be measured and a price applied to it. It might not be fairly costed, but it's in the mix. Warpstorm, OTOH, is an armywide rule that comes not from any single model (like the Stormlord's ability) but from simply choosing Daemons as the primary force in the army. There's no way to have that included in the model price since a 500 point force of daemons could easily be primary or secondary. That's probably why they tried to split the table so it would be 50/50 help or harm, that way they could just say 'BALANCED!' and then not have to think about tagging a price cost on it. 'Course they still flubbed that up because the various godstomp powers aren't balanced probability-wise.

If you have looked at the prices, compared to the base abilities of our HQ's, you would know where Daemons pay for the Warp Storm Table.

So you're saying the cost is baked into the HQ choices? So a Herald would have the same Warpstorm 'tax' as a Greater Daemon? That you pay double if you take multiple HQs, to say nothing of double primaries at 2k points, and that taking Daemons as allies has you paying that tax for no gain? There's just so many obvious flaws that I'd like to think that GW didn't do something quite so ham fisted. Though it's GW, so you never know.

daveNYC wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.[/color]

ATSKNF is paid for, how can it not be? It's a USR that a model has, it has a benefit that can be measured and a price applied to it. It might not be fairly costed, but it's in the mix. Warpstorm, OTOH, is an armywide rule that comes not from any single model (like the Stormlord's ability) but from simply choosing Daemons as the primary force in the army. There's no way to have that included in the model price since a 500 point force of daemons could easily be primary or secondary. That's probably why they tried to split the table so it would be 50/50 help or harm, that way they could just say 'BALANCED!' and then not have to think about tagging a price cost on it. 'Course they still flubbed that up because the various godstomp powers aren't balanced probability-wise.

If you have looked at the prices, compared to the base abilities of our HQ's, you would know where Daemons pay for the Warp Storm Table.

So you're saying the cost is baked into the HQ choices? So a Herald would have the same Warpstorm 'tax' as a Greater Daemon? That you pay double if you take multiple HQs, to say nothing of double primaries at 2k points, and that taking Daemons as allies has you paying that tax for no gain? There's just so many obvious flaws that I'd like to think that GW didn't do something quite so ham fisted. Though it's GW, so you never know.

No, I think they put a small point cost on all the HQ's for Daemons for the Warp Storm Chart. That way the bigger the game becomes, the more "tax" you pay, as the impact of the Warp Storm Chart becomes bigger with larger games.

-Edited for clarity

daveNYC wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
There are plenty of things in this game, you don't pay for too. ATSKNF, being the big example, allthough that one, doesn't have a real disadvantage.[/color]

ATSKNF is paid for, how can it not be? It's a USR that a model has, it has a benefit that can be measured and a price applied to it. It might not be fairly costed, but it's in the mix. Warpstorm, OTOH, is an armywide rule that comes not from any single model (like the Stormlord's ability) but from simply choosing Daemons as the primary force in the army. There's no way to have that included in the model price since a 500 point force of daemons could easily be primary or secondary. That's probably why they tried to split the table so it would be 50/50 help or harm, that way they could just say 'BALANCED!' and then not have to think about tagging a price cost on it. 'Course they still flubbed that up because the various godstomp powers aren't balanced probability-wise.

It's a USR that every model has. Consider the warpstorm table as a rule that every primary detatchment daemon provides as long as there is one alive. (Yes, you don't get it if you have daemon allies).

The cost is paid for in HQ's, as another said, and in pretty much anything but the troops. Each HQ, elite, fast, and heavy, is ever so slightly pricey for what they bring to the table, but the warpstorm can make up for that.

It's also scaled to gamesize. You still only hit unit's on a d6 with the main hitting rolls, regardless of if you have 3 or 30 unit's on the table.

Plus, despite paying for it in points cost, it still has the drawback of being dangerous to both players, something that ATSKNF and similar, does not do.

Yes, it takes control away from the player. For about 30 second's per shooting phase. Gasp.

So the theory is that GW increased the cost of all non-troop models to account for the Warpstorm table, which means that:

1) They consider the table to be a net benefit for the Daemons. (it could be argued, I guess)

2) They made Daemons extra over-priced as Allies.

Personally I prefer to think that they just suck at properly pricing models, as the idea of trying to distribute the price of an army wide rule over all units is so problematic that it should have never gotten beyond the drunken scrawling on napkins phase.

Potentially 30 seconds if your psyker pops, probably longer if you get instability of the godstomps. That's not the point though. It's that when the table comes out the players change from being active participants in the game to being a passive receivers of whatever the table dolls out. There is a taste of this with CSM and their forced challenges which then have to roll on the boon chart, and this is even worse as at least CSM had the option to not get into CC.

If you like this, then fine, but I don't like the direction they've gone with for gameplay in both the CSM and CD codeci.

daveNYC wrote:
So the theory is that GW increased the cost of all non-troop models to account for the Warpstorm table, which means that:

1) They consider the table to be a net benefit for the Daemons. (it could be argued, I guess)

2) They made Daemons extra over-priced as Allies.

Personally I prefer to think that they just suck at properly pricing models, as the idea of trying to distribute the price of an army wide rule over all units is so problematic that it should have never gotten beyond the drunken scrawling on napkins phase.

Potentially 30 seconds if your psyker pops, probably longer if you get instability of the godstomps. That's not the point though. It's that when the table comes out the players change from being active participants in the game to being a passive receivers of whatever the table dolls out. There is a taste of this with CSM and their forced challenges which then have to roll on the boon chart, and this is even worse as at least CSM had the option to not get into CC.

If you like this, then fine, but I don't like the direction they've gone with for gameplay in both the CSM and CD codeci.

To be honest, when I first read the codex I hated the idea of the Warp Storm Chart. After playing a few games with it, I have no issues with it. I still don't like that DI is being modified by the combat result though. That one still pisses me off.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
...but I took it all in stride because THAT is the way Chaos should work...

Really? You think it's fair that you can play the whole game, as you did, and then just lose because of nothing you or your opponent did because some random result on a table caused you to lose the game? That's the way Chaos is 'meant' to be? Are you frickin' insane?

I must be insane, because that's how I feel that an army made up entirely of CHAOS daemons who's fortunes ebb and flow based on the power and presence of the warp should play. Is it a competitive tournament army, who knows, but I don't play in tournaments and I'm not a WAAC player.

And you entirely skipped over the fact that the broken Necron flyer cost me the game as much as the Warpstorm chart. Where is your outrage over that? Also, the Warpstorm chart helped in several ways, it took 2 hull points off a Ghost Ark, which allowed me to take it down with the Horrors, it also increased my invulnerable save twice, making the army more durable.

As I said, I personally feel this is how the army SHOULD play, maybe its because I'm old school and remember how the Realms of Chaos books were heavily random (and I played Orks in 2nd edition, another heavily random and table driven army). I play to have fun, and it was extremely fun for both me and my opponent. I can't wait until the next game.

 kronk wrote:
I finally got my Daemon Codex yesterday in the mail.

I'm less concerned about the Warp Storm table than I am about the Warpfire ability that grants FNP to my opponent if they pass their Toughness Test. I'm only interested in running a small Tzeentch list to back up my CSM. This is worrisome to me!

Worrisome!

Kronk: if anything actually manages to live through your ability to nail a unit with 7D6/S6 Prescienced shots, it deserves to win a 6+ FnP save for it's trouble!

Just don't try and use the Pinkies to gun down Death Company or Plaguemarines unless you've first applied a healthy does of 7-9 templates from a Flamer squad beforehand.

I must be insane, because that's how I feel that an army made up entirely of CHAOS daemons who's fortunes ebb and flow based on the power and presence of the warp should play. Is it a competitive tournament army, who knows, but I don't play in tournaments and I'm not a WAAC player.

And you entirely skipped over the fact that the broken Necron flyer cost me the game as much as the Warpstorm chart. Where is your outrage over that? Also, the Warpstorm chart helped in several ways, it took 2 hull points off a Ghost Ark, which allowed me to take it down with the Horrors, it also increased my invulnerable save twice, making the army more durable.

As I said, I personally feel this is how the army SHOULD play, maybe its because I'm old school and remember how the Realms of Chaos books were heavily random (and I played Orks in 2nd edition, another heavily random and table driven army). I play to have fun, and it was extremely fun for both me and my opponent. I can't wait until the next game.

You're not insane. I love the new random stuff GW is throwing in. Changes the boring standard games into something fun because I never know what to expect. I love the new Daemon world rules, the CSM rewards chart, and this especially. Yeah It can screw me or it can screw you but each turn is something that I don't expect and now both myself and my opponent have to think of other ways to win. If you're playing this game just to play in tourneys then really you're missing most of the fun with 40k. Yeah tourneys can be fun but just getting a game in with folks down at your FLGS or at a buddy's place should involve an element of randomness that can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (and vice versa, but I like it my way better haha)

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
And you entirely skipped over the fact that the broken Necron flyer cost me the game as much as the Warpstorm chart. Where is your outrage over that?

It isn't here because this topic is not "Is Necron Flayer spam good for the game?" or "Are there more broken things than Warp Storm Chart?".

 Macok wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
And you entirely skipped over the fact that the broken Necron flyer cost me the game as much as the Warpstorm chart. Where is your outrage over that?

It isn't here because this topic is not "Is Necron Flayer spam good for the game?" or "Are there more broken things than Warp Storm Chart?".

That shouldn't discount his point though. If those things aren't bad for the game, then the warpstorm chart isn't either, I think is the point.

Mohoc wrote:

To be honest, when I first read the codex I hated the idea of the Warp Storm Chart. After playing a few games with it, I have no issues with it. I still don't like that DI is being modified by the combat result though. That one still pisses me off.

Well, Daemonic Instability is still nowhere near as horribad as it was in 6th ed Fantasy which was the last time they really tried it.

At least we only insta-pop the entire unit on boxcars...
In 6th Fantasy, if you simply rolled over your base Ld you lost your entire unit! (and daemons were pretty much across the board Ld8 - so you lost whole units on a consistant basis just for losing a combat by 1pt.)

In my first game, I didn't pop entire units through DI until I was down to just 5-6 models in my Troops units. Still annoying, but I was going to lose those units within another turn anyways considering they were in combat with Deathwing Termies!

I have recently started playing daemons and imho the tables' gamechanging-ness is being blown way out of proportion, in a game where maybe you play space marines who usually dont bring a lot of psykers (gk usually do though) heck a roll of 11 Daemonic possesion wouldn't do squat. There are not one but a few possiblities on the table that nothing happens, personally the other day when i was facing BLUHD RAVNS my skull taker got 2 wounds killing him because of a roll on the table (punished by the gods.) well yeah he was punished but i went on to victory glancing my foe's storm talon to death with 2 blood letters. the table really isnt that bad. And i couldn't stand playing an opponent who wants to not play with the whole dang warp storm table! That in itself is limiting the freedom of the player.

I think the table is bad if it leads to even more random tables being included in the game.

Sixth edition already has too many questionable rules and mechanics that slow the game down without actually improving it.

The random tables in the new demon books are there mostly because the designers are too lazy to playtest and balance rules. Seriously, this is the kind of rule design that you would expect from an early eighties role playing game.

JWhex wrote:
I think the table is bad if it leads to even more random tables being included in the game.

Sixth edition already has too many questionable rules and mechanics that slow the game down without actually improving it.

The random tables in the new demon books are there mostly because the designers are too lazy to playtest and balance rules. Seriously, this is the kind of rule design that you would expect from an early eighties role playing game.

There is no evidence to support the idea that the warpstorm table will lead to more random tables. The DA codex didn't have them after this same issue was brought up with the Chaos Rewards table from CSM. Chances are good the Tau won't have any either.

Your last comment makes no sense. How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting? No, the lazy way would have been to just make every unit undercosted with good stats, no weaknesses, and require no thought on how to use them (ie, the Wardian method).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

Spetulhu wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

The 11 result on the Warpstorm table is also a big part of our army's psychic defense. It's simply not nearly as reliable say a psy hood or Runes of Win or the Aegis or SitW and the like, but it can arguably hurt more when it does happen.

And I dare say it's not nearly as bad as crap like MSS or Psycho 'nades or Jaws-spam...

Spetulhu wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

How much fun is it that SW get a 24" bubble of eff-you when at best I get. a bubble of..well, nothing, as I play Chaos Marines?

CHaos Daemons, despite being daemons, have very little pschic defence / screwing about capability. this 1/18 result is one of those defences.

As for not being able to mitigate last turn drops - well I thin that point has been covered. For Purge if you have a psyker who COULD give away a VP from the 1/11 result, for example - then plan ahead fo rthis eventuality by trying to build up a 2VP buffer. You cant get to 1VP ahead and hide away anylonger, you have to got for a more decisive gap which may have more risk attached to it.

Overall this table is a very, very good things for the game in my opinion, and the opinion of most people down the gaming clubI go to, and the tournament / other club players I speak to.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Overall this table is a very, very good things for the game in my opinion, and the opinion of most people down the gaming clubI go to, and the tournament / other club players I speak to.

I completely agree. When I first read that the old Daemon deployment model was gone I figured they decided to get rid of the Daemon's flavor. However, the table added that flavor back in. So far I've only played against Daemons and as an opponent I think it's a bit fun to see what else the dark gods want to through down.

I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

OK, we get a free 'squad'....wow...so a 1:36 chance of getting a squad breaks the game? So is it game breaking how expensive getting decent models in our army is? How about how pathetic some of our supposedly best units are? How about the fact that with almost no exception we don't have a model with a better save than 5++....big whoop that it's invulnerable...with 20 shots, 10 wounds, we save 1-2 of them and still loose almost our entire squad. Is the fact that our leaderships are mostly 7 and the fact that we are the ONLY fearless army that takes more wounds from losing combat now? When you look at any one thing - you could say it is game breaking....but when taken as a whole - you have to look at the balance overall, not just one aspect.

OK - there is more rolls...well, guess what, the psychic powers added more randomness - does that mean that the game is so horrible? Does that make it worse? It is purely another aspect of the game....deal with it or go play something else. Oh - and for those that say this is not something that is 'logical' or whatever - guess what - they will eventually come out with different rules, change the whole game again. This is THEIR game, not ours - we can choose to play it or not...that is the shakes of life...suck it up buttercup.

As for its use in a tournament - that is up to the organizer - but as a CD player, I would tell them that doing so is arbitrarily removing rules from an army - and that it is unfair treatment. It is part of what we deal with as CD players and taking our special rules is like taking ATSKNF, Reanimation Protocol, Mob Rulez, Force Weapons, etc....If a TO decided to just state at the tourney that they were getting rid of the table because my opponent bitched...I would walk...You can pick and choose stuff all we want - but removing army rules is not only prejudiced, but ridiculous.

It depends on your perception of 40k. If you think its a fully tactical and strategic game, where the superior general wins(lawl) you wouldn't like it. It takes too much control away, as a warp spawned daemon army should.

I like it. I try to create fun, cinematic experiences for me and my opponent, but then, I gave up trying to play against the store lurkers and stale list spammers long before 6th, so I wouldn't know how they feel about it

If your playing with a psyker against a soul hungry, warp stormy daemon army, you damn well better have a bad time. Its fun, fluffy and adds flavour to a somewhat stale game. Daemons are one of the few unique armies left, and limiting their abilities or stripping them of anything different from the norm would only be detrimental.

 Amaraxis wrote:
I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

Um, Tyranids? Not a lot of Troop-based shooting there, either.

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

This point comes up over and over and over again. It's not about whether the table is "overpowered" or devastating; by and large, it isn't. It's not about whether or not other bad things exist; they certainly do. It's about whether a purely random roll, completely out of the hands of both players, that can have game-altering effects at any given moment is the sort of game mechanic that you believe a tabletop wargame like 40k should include. For myself, the answer is "no." And I do play Daemons.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:
I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

Um, Tyranids? Not a lot of Troop-based shooting there, either.

Actually, i think the only troop that does not get is are Genestealer and Hormaguants. Termaguants do PHENOMENAL shooting - especially with overwatch now. Also - their shooting is REAL shooting - not just a psychic attack - which isn't true shooting.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

This point comes up over and over and over again. It's not about whether the table is "overpowered" or devastating; by and large, it isn't. It's not about whether or not other bad things exist; they certainly do. It's about whether a purely random roll, completely out of the hands of both players, that can have game-altering effects at any given moment is the sort of game mechanic that you believe a tabletop wargame like 40k should include. For myself, the answer is "no." And I do play Daemons.

That is the thing - every possible roll is a potential game changer. It has been brought up before, but it people seem to dismiss it. Any DS is game changing and out of players' hands. Yes, there is mitigating factors of BS skill (which you pay for) and probability. The thing is - the probability of the table is skewed also - the highest chances are first: getting the random damage effects; and next is nothing happening. This is all just as random as hitting/missing in combat, landing properly in DS. The thing is - people have come to learn that DS and it's chances are part of the game. Just like this table - it is now a part of the game and people will have to deal.

Everything is out of the hands of the players - we can mitigate all we want (just like there are ways to mitigate the WS table - LoC and instruments) - it is all completely out of our hands. Otherwise, we would just be doing MathHammer and go with straight exact probabilities as facts...