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I think i did the math right though if some one could confirm that would be great (soooo booored at woooooorrrrkkkk)

2: 0.77% for at least 1 wound per squad
3: 3.47% for at least 1 wound on one character
4: 8.33% for -1 invul
5: 0.77% for at least 1 wound under scatter
6: 2.31% chance to get to roll d6 wounds
7: 16.67% chance of NOTHING
8: 2.31% chance to get to roll d6 wounds
9: 0.67% for 1 wound under small blast. (not sure on this one as i dont remember if you need to get a 6 on a d6 to do it like the other ones and im going off of faeit212)
10: 8.33% chance of +1 invul
11: 3.47% for at least 1 wound on an enemy psycher.
12: 2.78% chance for raining daemons.

by far (if my math was correct) the chances of almost anything happening is minute at best.

 Giganthrax wrote:
Or where a protagonist randomly dies because some nameless daemon appears out of the warp and possesses him, with no build up to it whatsoever? That's not cinematic.

No build up whatsoever? Why do they call it Perils of the Warp? It's not safe when you're fighting against the Tau. It should be far more dangerous to use powers borrowed from Tzeentch to blast one of his chosen Daemons when the sky is being ripped apart and the Warp and its Denizens are playing on the front lawn.

I don't understand how it can be assumed that having to deal with the sudden and unexpected loss of a tactical asset due to events entirely outside of a commanders control is somehow destructive to a tactical game. Less bland, more challenge, more fun. Personally, with all the myriad environments that battles in 40k would be fought in. GW is missing out on the chance to bring in random battlefield affects beyond just Night Fight.

I can only really see the chart as being bad if you are a competative player. IF you just play for fun, the chart should not really be an issue.

What I don`t get is why people are complaining about how long it will take. Its not like daemons have a load of shooting as it is...

All that most daemon players will do in the shooting phase is roll on a table and apply effects.

As opposed to an IG gunline or SW gunline that takes forever in the shoot phase

 sennacherib wrote:
I can only really see the chart as being bad if you are a competative player. IF you just play for fun, the chart should not really be an issue.

And any competitive play CAN mitigate the Warpstorm table with a little effort and forethought.

- 2 can be mitigated by the Daemon player through taking larger units and sprinkling their Heralds into their most critical squads to buff their Ld.
That way, a 1st or 2nd turn "everything takes an Instability test" isn't nearly as crippling.

- 3 can be mitigated by the Daemon player through taking more characters. Our unit characters especially are dirt cheap. Putting a champ into every single squad that can have one really limits the risk of your more important HQ's getting pooched by a 3D6 Instability test.

- 4 can be mitigated by simply playing defensively for a turn. Using terrain effectively and/or going to ground can help staunch the bleeding from what will be a more painful enemy shooting phase.

- 10 can be mitigated by opponents by packing a few anti-infantry weapons. Throw more dice at the Daemons and that 4++ won't mean so much.

- 11 can be mitigated by opponents by either taking no psyker or including more psykers in your list in order to protect the more valuable ones. Of corse, you also shouldn't be putting your entire battleplan on the shoulders of 1 snipable model...

- 12 can be mitigated by either bubble wraping objectives so the new unit can't get as close to it, (or else take a real risk at mishapping!), and/or make the Daemon player go first! That way if they do get a 'free' unit, you'll always have your own turn to counter it.


There. It's no more random than running into IG with barrage weapons that scatter 12" and randomly explode whole units that where never even targeted to begin with!
Maybe also try giving it a go as well before declaring that the sky is falling!

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Giganthrax wrote:
Or where a protagonist randomly dies because some nameless daemon appears out of the warp and possesses him, with no build up to it whatsoever? That's not cinematic.

No build up whatsoever? Why do they call it Perils of the Warp? It's not safe when you're fighting against the Tau. It should be far more dangerous to use powers borrowed from Tzeentch to blast one of his chosen Daemons when the sky is being ripped apart and the Warp and its Denizens are playing on the front lawn.

I don't understand how it can be assumed that having to deal with the sudden and unexpected loss of a tactical asset due to events entirely outside of a commanders control is somehow destructive to a tactical game. Less bland, more challenge, more fun. Personally, with all the myriad environments that battles in 40k would be fought in. GW is missing out on the chance to bring in random battlefield affects beyond just Night Fight.

Except the table doesn't care if I'm using powers or not. I don't have to use a single power the entire game, and the table can still randomly kill my psyker. It's both a bad mechanic and a bad "cinematic" effect.

Ofc it's destructive to a tactical game. The game is supposed to be determined by players, not by random tables players can do nothing about. It's still a tabletop game, a sandbox so to speak. There are a ton of random battlefield effects (mysterious terrain, mysterious objectives) in 6th ed, and guess what? Almost nobody uses them! People hate this sort of enforced stuff. Players want to struggle against each other, not against randomized game mechanics.

EDIT: Just to give you an idea of what I'd consider a good cinematic and tactical mechanic:

Imagine a gradual possession. The daemon player picks an enemy psyker during deployment and this psyker is the target of a daemon in the warp trying to possess him. The psyker would have to pass ld tests at the beginning of every daemon player's movement phase. If he fails, he gets turned into a herald. If he passes, nothing happens. With each turn he resists being turned into a daemon, a stacking -1 debuff is applied to his ld value, making it increasingly less likely he's going to pass the next test, and on turn 4 he starts taking his tests on 3d6. To combat this, the controlling player has the option to self-terminate the psyker at the beginning of his movement phase, losing his psyker but not spawning the demon either. Any friendly priest, chaplain, inquisitor, sister of battle HQ, etc. can attempt to exorcise the daemon with some sort of hard test, preventing the possession from taking place. If a commissar comes to within 6" of the psyker, he automatically executes him. Psykers with adamantium will can still be possessed but they don't suffer the -1 stacking debuff. The spawned daemon can charge on the turn it appears, making it even more dangerous to keep the psyker allive for a long time.

I'd take this over "roll 11 on random table, fail 3d6 ld test, die, demon spawns" any day.

 Giganthrax wrote:
Ofc it's destructive to a tactical game. The game is supposed to be determined by players, not by random tables players can do nothing about. It's still a tabletop game, a sandbox so to speak. There are a ton of random battlefield effects (mysterious terrain, mysterious objectives) in 6th ed, and guess what? Almost nobody uses them! People hate this sort of enforced stuff. Players want to struggle against each other, not against randomized game mechanics.

My entire gaming group plays with mysterious terrain and objectives. We've taken to using mysterious objectives during the game for all primary objectives, then picking randomly for the primary objectives value at the end of the game. They have a random effect during the game and may or not be worth as much at the end of the day as you might have hoped. Keeps the game from becoming boring. And unless you get tabled you're never really out of it till its over.

To us this represents the possibility that although a commander may set a certain point of the field as his objective, its possession may or may not have the desired effect at the end of the day. Fought like hell to get the hill, but it was all for worthless ground. As far as random terrain effects. The chance that terrain may not be entirely be what you thought is in keeping with the setting of 40k. What might be a carnivorous jungle could just as easily be statues of Eldar dead that come to life to attack intruders.

None of these effects make us less competitive than anyone else. We're just willing to take the game for what it is, warp storm table included.

Random objectives are very "meh". Wow your tactical squads got skyfire...here's a leman russ to the face!

They're okay though, when we remember to use them Random terrain I'm not a fan of, I don't mind occasionally but we don't roll for them since they can be seriously game changing.

Except the table doesn't care if I'm using powers or not. I don't have to use a single power the entire game, and the table can still randomly kill my psyker. It's both a bad mechanic and a bad "cinematic" effect.

Neither do psykers in the fluff. If you possess the ability to use psychic powers, you are under threat of daemonic possession every minute of every hour of every day. This is why the Black Ships of the Inquisition ferry your butt to Terra to see if you are good enough to be anything more than a bon-bon for the God-Emperor. Even after their Sanctioning, a psyker must remain ever-vigilant. The wrong thought, the wrong idle daydream, the merest moment of laxity, can spell disaster for entire worlds.

Ofc it's destructive to a tactical game. The game is supposed to be determined by players, not by random tables players can do nothing about. It's still a tabletop game, a sandbox so to speak. There are a ton of random battlefield effects (mysterious terrain, mysterious objectives) in 6th ed, and guess what? Almost nobody uses them! People hate this sort of enforced stuff. Players want to struggle against each other, not against randomized game mechanics.

That's because the meta of Warhammer has become Mathhammer. Players don't want to step outside the comfort zone of what their net-lists tell them they can likely win against (down to actual percentile numbers). Players don't want to "struggle" against anything. They want to have a few "close calls" with inconsequential units at inconsequential objectives, while knowing that, so long as the dice hold, their list provides them a 77.89% chance of victory against the list their opponent brought.

Guess what? The Warp isn't a comfort zone. It is intended to bring the most uncomfortable of Discomfort Zones and insert it, right firmly and with tentacles fully wrapped, into places that objects of non-euclidean geometries should not be inserted.

This is The Warp. This is Chaos. This is the Greatest Threat to all Mortal Life in the Universe. Forget the Exterminatus of the IoM. Forget the aging Robo-Mummies rising out of their Tombs. Forget these H.R. Geiger-wannabe Bugs from Deep Space. Forget the Tau, the Hrud, the Demi-Urg, the Eldar and their Cousins. Forget anything that has something we might recognize as something approaching a culture and a civilization, aboard vessels plying the void or on worlds huddled around distant stars. Forget anything that has a definable biology, a predictable biomorphic form, and something approaching social order. This is CHAOS, the anathema to the fundamental laws of physics that hold material reality together. Everything that you were ever taught to believe was possible no longer applies when Chaos arrives. Stone runs like wax, inanimate objects gain malevolent sentience and murderous intent, the very ground you walk on may suddenly open a fanged maw with a venomous serpent for a tongue and swallow a tank whole. That guy over there swallows his shotgun, and his still-twitching corpse sprouts barbed tentacles from the gushing neck-stump and rends three other people limb from screaming limb.

Gak like this is *why* the Grey Knights exist. If regular dudes and dudettes could handle a full-scale Daemonic Incursion, the GK would not need to exist. A single roll causes a Psyker's head to explode and some taloned thing to crawl its way out his chest-cavity? That's why the Grey Knights send lots and lots of them. One guy's head exploding (for the Emperor) does not cause the rest of them to run screaming for the hills.

Even Necrons fear Daemons, as much as a Necron can be said to fear anything, for all of their hyper-phasic dimension-shifting sciences have aided them, these pocket-dimensions are simply new flavors of reality to be twisted and corrupted by the Things From Beyond.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because the meta of Warhammer has become Mathhammer. Players don't want to step outside the comfort zone of what their net-lists tell them they can likely win against (down to actual percentile numbers). Players don't want to "struggle" against anything. They want to have a few "close calls" with inconsequential units at inconsequential objectives, while knowing that, so long as the dice hold, their list provides them a 77.89% chance of victory against the list their opponent brought.

Yeah, it's all about fear of losing rather than hating the fact that decisions and interactions between the players are replaced by random dice. That's why they hate all of the random outcomes, because it threatens their nice safe 'fake danger' experience when their opponent randomly loses the game.

(In case you missed the sarcasm, it isn't about fear of losing at all.)

As a GAME MECHANIC, random results without player interaction is ok...if the game is supposed to be only random.

Roll dice, cut cards, flip coins, etc. That in itself can actually be fun. Unfortunately when it is applied to a war game it begs the question...why even put armies on the table?

It's a beer and pretzels rule written for what is increasingly a beer and pretzels game. If you want a tactical or strategic gaming experience, it's time to start looking for something that is not a Games Workshop product. But if you want cool models and a more relaxed experience, rejoice! Games Workshop is actively catering to you.

It's not good or bad per se, but it's rough when players who have been taught to expect one thing from their game of choice are handed something else entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, it's all about fear of losing rather than hating the fact that decisions and interactions between the players are replaced by random dice. That's why they hate all of the random outcomes, because it threatens their nice safe 'fake danger' experience when their opponent randomly loses the game.

(In case you missed the sarcasm, it isn't about fear of losing at all.)

It does seem to be about fear of change and things being beyond your control.
If you guys want to ignore the warpstorm for your games because you want more control, fine. I just think that sounds boring and uninteresting. If you got your way and convinced GW to remove it, I imagine the new version would bore me too, and I'd stop playing again until something interesting came back to the game.

Which speaks directly to whether the Warpstorm is bad for 40k. It provides something to cause dramtic events and to lure new players in to the idea of playing out a battle with little toy soldiers. It is tied in a clear way to the fluff of the universe that has been built up. Sounds to me like a perfect way to bring in new players at intial stages.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Which speaks directly to whether the Warpstorm is bad for 40k. It provides something to cause dramtic events and to lure new players in to the idea of playing out a battle with little toy soldiers. It is tied in a clear way to the fluff of the universe that has been built up. Sounds to me like a perfect way to bring in new players at intial stages.

It sounds like a way to appeal to people who really like the 40k fluff. You aren't going to find many new players that see someone lose a handful or two of models or suffer an army-wide penalty because of arbitrary dice roll and think to themselves "Yes, this is a thing that I want to play!" It would appeal to guys that are just looking for a laugh...which is the beer and pretzels crowd, yet again.

I'm not going to slog through ten pages of this, so I appologize up front if someone has already pointed this out.

Those of you who are griping about a little random factor in the new Daemon codex REALLY would have hated some of the stuff in RT:

-The two original Realm of Chaos books with their d100 charts full of potentially game changing mutationsand the flat points costed but randonaly generated chaarcter models and warbands. That could produce some seriously skewed results one way or another very quickly.
-The Ork codex with it's amazing "kustom/kombi" weapon chart. I once rolled up an autopistol that was str 10 with a 3" blast radius. The old Shokk attack gun chart made the current one look tame by comparison. The whole card based malfunction/repair system could be very broken too.
-In just about every early RT list you bought rolls on charts rather than actual wargear for characters in alot of cases. You payed your 50 points and might get garbage like a heavy stubber, or you might roll up a lascannon or multi-melta.
There are many other examples, but that's good enough for the moment.

My point is that those griping need to get a sense of persepctive. These are same folks who did the gnashing of teeth and reding of garments things when the new edition added in a little uncertainly with random charge distances. Is the new chart going to on occasion really make something wonky happen? Sure. But most of the time, it's just going to add a bit of uncertainty

Get a grip. The world is not coming to an end.

TR

 Trench-Raider wrote:
I'm not going to slog through ten pages of this, so I appologize up front if someone has already pointed this out.

Then you're missing the point of the discussion, and not adding anything useful to the conversation.

 Desubot wrote:

how can you physically show something as abstract as the warp, or a warp storm.

also a quick fluff question. can daemons as a full army invade without a warp storm?

Ohhhh, I don't know, maybe with a warp portal, like the one that GW includes in every box with a Mutalith Vortex Beast/Slaughterbrute? Or maybe with a weird piece of scenery, like a Balewind Vortex or Eternity Stair? Or with a painted metal dome, like GW sold for the Dark Eldar? Heck, even a Moonscape crater painted in some weird color?

My point is, the game already has rules for buying terrain that has game effects. Why not use the pre-existing rules to create terrain for daemons with rules, rather than having abstract rules that have no connection to anything on the board?

Also, a quick fluff answer. No, Daemons cannot invade without a warp storm/warp portal/warp gate.

However, tyranids need mycetic spores or other means of invading a planet, but the game doesn't use any rules to alter the battlefield to represent those, unless the Tyranid player chooses to buy Mycetic spores. Orks need tellyportas, or landas, or a crashing rok/hulk, but the game doesn't require you to roll on a chart to see how the orks got to the battlefield. Imperial Guardsmen must be transported by the Imperial Navy, or be part of the PDF, but they don't require a chart determining what the Naval forces in orbit do each turn.

I'm not debating whether daemons need a warp storm to get to the world, I'm just questioning the need for every battle to be materially affected, in the exact same possible ways, by a Warp Storm. I would prefer that perhaps some battles might be taking place quite near to a violent warp storm (and the daemon player could choose to spend points on terrain to reflect that), while others might be taking place in a warded Eldar Craftworld, where only a single corrupted portal has allowed the daemons to emerge (and that portal isn't on the battlefield itself).

I LOVE the idea of daemonic armies (and Chaos Space Marines, too) being able to use the powers of the warp in an unpredictable manner to affect the battlefield. I just disagree that a mandatory chart with these specific possibilities being rolled for each turn is a good way to do it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trench-Raider wrote:


Those of you who are griping about a little random factor in the new Daemon codex REALLY would have hated some of the stuff in RT:

-The two original Realm of Chaos books with their d100 charts full of potentially game changing mutationsand the flat points costed but randonaly generated chaarcter models and warbands. That could produce some seriously skewed results one way or another very quickly.
-The Ork codex with it's amazing "kustom/kombi" weapon chart. I once rolled up an autopistol that was str 10 with a 3" blast radius. The old Shokk attack gun chart made the current one look tame by comparison. The whole card based malfunction/repair system could be very broken too.
-In just about every early RT list you bought rolls on charts rather than actual wargear for characters in alot of cases. You payed your 50 points and might get garbage like a heavy stubber, or you might roll up a lascannon or multi-melta.
There are many other examples, but that's good enough for the moment.

My point is that those griping need to get a sense of persepctive. These are same folks who did the gnashing of teeth and reding of garments things when the new edition added in a little uncertainly with random charge distances. Is the new chart going to on occasion really make something wonky happen? Sure. But most of the time, it's just going to add a bit of uncertainty

Get a grip. The world is not coming to an end.

TR

You are right. We would have hated that stuff in Rogue Trader. I did, I do, and I don't like it now. The fact that another edition, or even another codex, has stuff in it that I don't like, or that I think is poor game design, doesn't require me to like it or find it acceptable in this codex. The question wasn't whether this was the worst idea ever in 40K, but whether it was bad for the game.

You'll notice that the Realms of Chaos books with their d100 charts are no longer in the current edition of the game. The random ork kombi weapons have been removed too. The points costs for random rolls on equipment charts are gone too? Why?

I would suspect that they were considered poor game design. You have a game where the player is expected to purchase, assemble, and paint his own models. You want to encourage the players to purchase and paint as many models as possible. Thus, creating rules where they have no say over what a model should look like, or how it should be equipped, even after they have selected an army and purchased a book, isn't probably conducive to encouraging them to continuing to buy more models.

While technically, this chart does encourage you to buy more models (as you can't use the beneficial results without having a spare demon model/demon unit available), it does it in a very poorly designed way. Rather than allowing a player who wishes to buy more models to use optional rules which would allow them, the chart gives the player who wants to buy a spare demon prince and a spare unit of daemons the same chance of being able to use them as the player who has no interest in doing either. That's poor game design and poor marketing at the same time.

I feel like the part of the claim here is that a die roll on a single table is "taking the players out of the game."

Really? Losing a single psyker to an 11 makes playing the game pointless? It's now why-do-we-put-armies-on-the-table bad?

I mean come on, it's not like you roll before deployment and on snakeyes Daemons lose, and boxcars Daemons win! It is random, but there's still a game to be played!

I am finding this thread to really be circling the drain because NOTHING new has been added to an argument that has gone on 10 pages, and we are harping on the same points rehashed again and again and again. Allow me to summarize what I have seen people bitching about.

The table is bad for 40k because:
"It takes control away from the players"
"It is not fun"
"It is mandatory"
"It is poor game design"
"you cannot react to it"

The table is good for 40k because:
"It is fluffy"
"It is characterful"
"It is fun"
"It breaks the comfort zone"
"It is different"

Those are the things that are brought up again and again and again.

Get. Over. It.

It exists. Whether it is good or bad for 40k, what does it matter? I'm getting sick of all of this "I can't hear you la la la" bs that everyone is doing. Nothing new in 10 pages.

The Warpstorm table is NOT going away. It is NOT going to disappear until the next time they re-do Chaos Daemons in 10 years time.

Get. Over. It.

Strangely enough it is possible to think a mechanic could be fun/fluffy in the game while still thinking it's bad game design/badly implemented.

I'm not saying it isn't. I have no issues with the Warp Storm Table. I have had to deal with bs the likes of GK net lists and such. Its another thing to deal with.

A worse thing in 40k was Codex Creep, but we all dealt with it. This table? No. Not a bad thing for 40k.

 Janthkin wrote:
The red is Janthkin the mod borrowing HBMC's words & putting my imprimatur behind them.

Ha! Where would you people be with out me?

Well... probably exactly where you are now but... umm... shut up!

 Psienesis wrote:

Except the table doesn't care if I'm using powers or not. I don't have to use a single power the entire game, and the table can still randomly kill my psyker. It's both a bad mechanic and a bad "cinematic" effect.

Neither do psykers in the fluff. If you possess the ability to use psychic powers, you are under threat of daemonic possession every minute of every hour of every day. This is why the Black Ships of the Inquisition ferry your butt to Terra to see if you are good enough to be anything more than a bon-bon for the God-Emperor. Even after their Sanctioning, a psyker must remain ever-vigilant. The wrong thought, the wrong idle daydream, the merest moment of laxity, can spell disaster for entire worlds.

That may be for a random untrained psyker. But for a dude like Tigurius or Eldrad or even a standard librarian? No, sorry, them getting randomly possessed isn't cinematic. It's just godawful stupid.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's because the meta of Warhammer has become Mathhammer. Players don't want to step outside the comfort zone of what their net-lists tell them they can likely win against (down to actual percentile numbers). Players don't want to "struggle" against anything. They want to have a few "close calls" with inconsequential units at inconsequential objectives, while knowing that, so long as the dice hold, their list provides them a 77.89% chance of victory against the list their opponent brought.

Hah, that has no basis in reality whatsoever. For one, you have a completely skewed view of what "netlists" are, and secondly there are so many factors involved into any given game of 40k, especially in 6th ed, that no such thing as "78% chance to win against a certain army" exists.

Like any 1on1 game with clearly defined parameters of victory and defeat, 40k is inherently competitive and compels players to constantly make decisions, many of which are very risky within the context of the game. Thus, like any competitive game, especially the one where dice are involved, it naturally forces players to leave their comfort zone and take risks. The more experienced and skilled the player gets, the wider his comfort zone becomes, yet there's always the randomness factor from dice and the fact you can never fully predict what an opponent will do.

Players have no problem with inherent randomness (at least they shouldn't, as they're playing a dice-based game, after all), but there's a big difference between risky decisions (you have to consciously decide to enter terrain with your vehicle and risk having it immobilized, you have to make a conscious decision to risk perils of the warp when you try to cast a psychic power, etc.) and stuff they have absolutely no control over and can't really predict. As I said, players want to struggle against each other, to try and outplay the person at the other side of the table. They don't want to have their game defined by mechanics outside of either player's ability to affect, because at that point it stops being player vs player and becomes player vs game, which isn't what people want when they opt to play a 1on1 tabletop game (if they wanted a narrative where they had no say in how things turn out, they'd play a single player video game, or an RPG, or read a book, or watch a movie etc.).

Simply put, if after all I've written here you don't understand how the Warp Storm chart is annoying and against the spirit of a 1on1 game, then there's really nothing more to say to you.

This is The Warp. This is Chaos. This is the Greatest Threat to all Mortal Life in the Universe. etc..

Nah, warp has nothing on tyranids. Whenever hive mind shows in force, daemons run away like little sissies. The only thing standing between Chaos Gods and death at the hands of the shadow in the warp is the Imperium of Man. ;]

Also, warp isn't all that dangerous to humans, either. Hell, as long as you got gellar fields on your boat, you can plow through the realm of the chaos gods with impunity. Sorry, not much scared of daemons who get hard-countered by a mass-produced machine.

yes random crap happening is oh so cool, fun and fluffy. They should dial their bad ideas up to the max! more random tables, random movement, random army lists, random weapons.

here's an idea that GW will love: you dont pick your army, you roll on random tables to see which demons you get, so you better buy lots of everything because who knows what you'll roll. It's so cool and fluffy guys!

Forget about evil, twisted, calculating, intelligent, powerful, etc. Demons need more random.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I disagree. Randomness /= bad game design. Randomness, in the form of the Warp Storm table, is here to represent a particular fluff concept, of fighting Daemons in proximity to a warp rift. Some crazy stuff may happen. Lighting bolts will shoot out and hit people. Psykers may die. Daemons themselves may grow tougher or weaker. These are all reasonable and fluffy effects which players will need to adapt to and play around. Most of them can be adapted to and compensated for to a greater or lesser extent. Certainly as much or more than stuff like Warp Quake, Jaws of the World Wolf, or Runes of Witnessing, all of which have reliably and consistently screwed various armies over the last few years, and all of which folks have compensated for and adapted to deal with.

I never said that "Random = bad" (I said random =/= Chaos, which is true). Random is fine as long as there are limitations. Risk vs reward would be a good thing. If the Warp Storm table was the result of the player/s doing something, so you had the choice of gaining XYZ effect or perhaps incurring the wrath of the Chaos Gods, then fine. But this is a core mechanic that no one has any control over, it hampers everyone, it can end games before they start and - worst of all - it actually encourages mono-God play. Add to that the fact that it's a 2d6 bell-curve, so results 6 and 8 are more prevalent than results 5 and 9, meaning that the two types of Daemons that get screwed by results 6 and 8 get screwed more often than those with the 5 and 9 result further emphasising mono-God play. It's bad design not because its random, it's bad design because of its implementation.

Actually, that's not at all surprising. GW rules constitute a highly consistent record of how often they create great concepts and fail miserably when it comes to realisation.

The psychic power tables are a good example of random because they are risk vs reward. You roll for a power you really like, but you take the chance of getting something you don't want or just the base power. That's excellent implementation. The fact that they did that for all the daemonic wargear choices was 100% unnecessary (and adds nothing but more tedious dice rolling to the game) but at least they chose the same model as the psychic powers, with a base item you can choose if you want or if you don't like what you rolled. If only the Warlord Table had gone the same way (eg. Primaris Warlord - May add +1 to a single Reserve roll per turn).

I think part of the problem is armchair analysts who aren't actually good at and don't really understand the game, but enjoy screaming hyperbole on the internet and pretending that the sky is falling. Good competitive players rise to challenges, accept that 40k contains significant amounts of randomness, and consistently win anyway. When we’re wearing our big boy pants we also don’t cry too much at the occasional dice meltdown.

Hahahaha!

"Armchair analysts", "aren't actually good", "don't really understand", "pretend the sky is falling". These are all ways of attacking the person and not the argument. You've even made a "No Real Scotsman" fallacy with the "good competitive players" line. Remember what I said about attacking someone else's argument and not the person making the argument? You just failed at it.

Also, warp isn't all that dangerous to humans, either. Hell, as long as you got gellar fields on your boat, you can plow through the realm of the chaos gods with impunity. Sorry, not much scared of daemons who get hard-countered by a mass-produced machine.

Sorry, untrue, gellar fields can and are broken by daemons in the fluff. In fact, ever read the fluff for screamers of tzeentch? Their fluff says they can and do burrow through the field.

I like a challenge, the table gives me that.

I'm sorry if you don't like the table... but imho a challenge is never a bad thing, it's always good thing.*

*the only time I'd ever consider a challenge a bad thing is if the challenge is against an OP force... Which the table is not

Giganthrax - "There are a ton of random battlefield effects (mysterious terrain, mysterious objectives) in 6th ed, and guess what? Almost nobody uses them! People hate this sort of enforced stuff. Players want to struggle against each other, not against randomized game mechanics.
"

By "almost nobody" you mean "I have no idea how many people actually DO play with them, I am just using hyperbole to detract from my lack of empirical evidence"

Our tournaments use mysterious objectives, our whole gaming group uses mysterious objectives.

Do you roll for mission, or pick it? If you roll you have just undermined your entire argument.

But you can avoid mysterious terrain. You can't avoid the Warp Storm table.

HOwever if you use them , you cannot avoid mysterious objectives (well you can go for tabling someone, but good luck with that)

Personally I love the table, as it adds a flavour of fighting in a warp incursion - seriously odd, uncontrollable stuff can occur, which mostly has a mitigateable effect on proceedings.

I will certainly not be banning it at any tournament I run, and I would be shocked if anyone ever does, at least in the UK

nosferatu1001 wrote:
HOwever if you use them , you cannot avoid mysterious objectives (well you can go for tabling someone, but good luck with that)

Personally I love the table, as it adds a flavour of fighting in a warp incursion - seriously odd, uncontrollable stuff can occur, which mostly has a mitigateable effect on proceedings.

I will certainly not be banning it at any tournament I run, and I would be shocked if anyone ever does, at least in the UK

It's an integral mechanic to the army. I don't see any tournament banning it. People are just having a Knee jerk reaction to it at the moment.