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went down to the local store and played a game vs a new player that had never played in a store we had a great game that went down to a draw a super fun time had by all.

After the game there was a big war machine tourney going on and one of the players that was on a by had just bought he deamon dex and I we were chatting and I was flipping through it. As I was doing so we were talking about cool units and what not and then I stumbled on the Warp Storm Chart.

For those of you that don't know if Chaos Deamons are your primary detachment you must roll on this random chart before each of your shooting phases. As I was reading the effects of the chart I came to this one and I think that this will really upset people and this will not be fun at all.

Imagine its a Saturday and you have met one of your buddies at the store and you set up your table and get set to play your buddy is paying Chaos Deamons and you are playing SW and you have a Rune Priest as your Warlord and HQ.

The deamon player gets first turn he moves all his models and then he moves to the shooting phase. He rolls an 11 on the chart and points to your warlord he makes you take a leadership test on 3d6 with no saves of any kind allowed and if you fail your Rune priest is dead and a Herald of the deamon players choice is set up 6 inches away from the RP.

I would like to ask how is this fun? Think how fun it would be if it were the swarmlord it's any enemy phyker BTW.

Other Jems on the chart include that the deamon army must demonic insatiability test on each unit in the army. Oh look my army just kicked it's own ass that seems fun huh?!?!?

If you roll box cars you get a free scoring unit! That deep strikes on to the table immediately. Wow that would be super fun for your buddy that is smashing you on his way to victory on turn 6 you box cars and deep strike a unit on an objective or you pick line breaker that would super fun.

I understand that GW wanted Chaos Deamons to be chaotic and I can dig that I get it I really do but sometimes you need to adjust what you want to do for the sake of game play.

It's a game it's supposed to be fun how is it fun when things are this drastically random? The other dynamic I have an issue with is that this warp storm chat is compulsory this is not some cheese SC like the Doom or Mephiston this is how every deamon player must play.

I think this book has some smash face units in it and can do some really cool things but this chart makes me very sad not just for deamon players but everyone that has to play them.

Think this is really bad for the game.f

It's cinematic.

You're not forced to use it, try asking your opponent if he would mind not using it. If you have a regular gaming group you might be able to come to an accord.

I don't see a problem with it. Only 3 of the effects really screw you over, 1 does nothing, and the rest screw your opponent over to varying degrees.Considering this is already a game where the vast majority of things are decided by dice rolls, why are people complaining about *gasp* more dice rolls being added?

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I don't see a problem with it. Only 3 of the effects really screw you over, 1 does nothing, and the rest screw your opponent over to varying degrees.Considering this is already a game where the vast majority of things are decided by dice rolls, why are people complaining about *gasp* more dice rolls being added?

Because it's a major game-changing event with a 1/36 probability. Most of the time it won't happen, and then it randomly shows up to swing the game and negate all of the complex strategy both players have done. It's just one more step away from interesting choices and closer to "roll to see who wins".

And also because the game has too much rolling involved already. There is no need for more charts of random effects.

 Peregrine wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I don't see a problem with it. Only 3 of the effects really screw you over, 1 does nothing, and the rest screw your opponent over to varying degrees.Considering this is already a game where the vast majority of things are decided by dice rolls, why are people complaining about *gasp* more dice rolls being added?

Because it's a major game-changing event with a 1/36 probability. Most of the time it won't happen, and then it randomly shows up to swing the game and negate all of the complex strategy both players have done. It's just one more step away from interesting choices and closer to "roll to see who wins".

And also because the game has too much rolling involved already. There is no need for more charts of random effects.

Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

I hate it.

A lot of people seem to be using the pathetic excuse that you shouldn't complain about randomness in a game based around dice rolling. This ofcourse ignores the fact that every other roll in a game I make is because of decisions I have made. I can increase or decrease my chance of success by the decisions I make while playing game. This warpstorm table I have no power over.

For me personally this warpstorm table and a lot of the other randomness in the daemons codex breaks a personal game design philosphy that a game should never take control away from the player. If I lose or win a game I want it to be because I made the right decisions at the right time not because I got luck or unlucky on a random table that I have no control over. The CSM codex and their forced challenges is another example of taking control away from the played and I have seen many a player complain about things not going their way because they were forced to issue the challenge.

I'm actually very worreid about the direction GW is taking with the game and I am very worried about what a future Ork codex will look like.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils?

Which results in one wound on (usually) a multi-wound model. It's no more game-changing than failing a save against a bolter shot.

Or you fail a leadership test?

Given how many armies have some way of re-rolling leadership or automatically regrouping or whatever, not really. It's annoying but missing a turn with a unit is not usually something that will instantly change the game.

Or a reserve test?

Not game-changing since you usually have multiple units in reserve and failing to get a specific one is rarely a big deal (and if it is you need to put more redundancy in your list).

Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking?

Potentially game-changing, but you also have a lot of control over it through the risk vs. reward tradeoff in picking your target point. You don't just randomly roll 2D6 and lose the unit on a 2.

Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch?

Not really, since it's just a few dead meatshields and if your entire strategy depends on not losing an extra model or two on overwatch you have only yourself to blame.

Same with Rending?

Not really, since rending is fairly predictable on average and if you fail to account for it you're just a bad player.

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Of course it is. Most rolls in 40k are either predictable (through sheer numbers of dice rolled ensuring a reasonable average most of the time) or not game-changing (a single reserve roll). The table, on the other hand, has the horrible combination of huge effects and huge luck factor in whether they happen or not.

 Madcat87 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

I hate it.

A lot of people seem to be using the pathetic excuse that you shouldn't complain about randomness in a game based around dice rolling. This ofcourse ignores the fact that every other roll in a game I make is because of decisions I have made. I can increase or decrease my chance of success by the decisions I make while playing game. This warpstorm table I have no power over.

For me personally this warpstorm table and a lot of the other randomness in the daemons codex breaks a personal game design philosphy that a game should never take control away from the player. If I lose or win a game I want it to be because I made the right decisions at the right time not because I got luck or unlucky on a random table that I have no control over. The CSM codex and their forced challenges is another example of taking control away from the played and I have seen many a player complain about things not going their way because they were forced to issue the challenge.

I'm actually very worreid about the direction GW is taking with the game and I am very worried about what a future Ork codex will look like.

The very fact that you are playing with DICE means luck will always either help you or hurt, planning and tactics be damned. You can talk all you want about "mitigating" it, you will still role 1s or 12s on your dice. And you CAN mitigate the effects of Warpstorm, just take a LoC or Kairos and you can reroll it if you don't like it, on top of that you get a level 3 psyker MC with access to divination.

And if adding all this luck that you seem to hate means that TFGs can no longer build WAAC lists due to it screwing over their "perfect" lists, again, what is the problem?

The Chart seems in character for the Chaos demon army, having chaotic things happen to a all warp spawned demons of chaos force seems pretty flavorful.

And likely TO will forbid it at events if it causes to much of a hubbub, for friendly games I think it would be fun, but then again I only play for fun.

I love what I have seen of the warpstorm table, it looks awesome and I think it will make for really bizarre and interesting games. I'm looking forward to using it!

It reminds me of the days of Necromunda, rolling on the serious injury table to see what had happened to your gangers. It's great!

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I love what I have seen of the warpstorm table, it looks awesome and I think it will make for really bizarre and interesting games. I'm looking forward to using it!

It reminds me of the days of Necromunda, rolling on the serious injury table to see what had happened to your gangers. It's great!

Now that brings back some memories.

I watched the Storm Chart blast a necron Lord into cinders after the unfortunate bastard detached from his unit. It is a hell of a game changer. I built a list for my friend using the new codex and the game was over in Turn 2. Seriously.

Sure, bad thingsa can happen to your Daemons but then... they're evil badness and bad things SHOULD happeen to them. it's when that chart hurts the enemy, and I mean it can HURT the HELL outta the enemy.

And if adding all this luck that you seem to hate means that TFGs can no longer build WAAC lists due to it screwing over their "perfect" lists, again, what is the problem?

If someone doesn't like too much randomness it's far not equal that he is a TFG with a WAAC list. Foot guard numbers compensate randomness, but it would be foolish to call a list with sentinels and without fliers or allies a WAAC list.

Have fun with the randomness if you want, but don't call others TFGs just because they don't like it.

I think that the armies which worship a force with a name like, oh, say, Chaos should rely a little more on randomness, and the Warp Storm Chart seems like a good way to do that. Orks, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons should have these random tables, I think. Personally, I think that it adds flavor to their army, and I wouldn't have a problem playing against it. I think it would be a barrel of laughs, especially in friendly games. And if someone should happen to have all his random table rolls go his way in a tournament, I'd applaud him the same way I'd applaud anyone on an incredible lucky streak.

Now I can't wait to play against this myself.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The very fact that you are playing with DICE means luck will always either help you or hurt, planning and tactics be damned. You can talk all you want about "mitigating" it, you will still role 1s or 12s on your dice. And you CAN mitigate the effects of Warpstorm, just take a LoC or Kairos and you can reroll it if you don't like it, on top of that you get a level 3 psyker MC with access to divination.

And, again, there's a difference between things like shooting which involve dice but are fairly predictable and average out in the long run and random tables with game-changing events that occasionally and unpredictably screw over one player.

And if adding all this luck that you seem to hate means that TFGs can no longer build WAAC lists due to it screwing over their "perfect" lists, again, what is the problem?

That the game is even less fun when TFG rolls well on the random table and gains a huge advantage just because the dice said so.

I think it's ok. The results are not as bad as many other things in the game. The OP mentioned the 11 result, which we have seen before with mind worm, Zogwart and others. Maybe it's just me, but I laugh hard when my 333 point fateweaver gets transformed into a squig! In a game very much focused on luck, I don't think that this is a problem. Besides, it is there really to hold back the Daemons themselves, who have some really strong combos. I'd laugh my ads off if I kept destroying my khorne units again and again! But maybe it's because I do not play competitively, in which case I can't say anything because that seems to ruin the hobby for me.

Just my two cents

The challenge then is to be able to respond to the random occurrence and still triumph. Sounds like fun to me

It's cinematic, and it makes up for the very little amount's of shooting there are in the daemon book.

If it were me, I wouldn't find that psyker thing too scary. you have around a 1/2 chance of getting that result per game, then a 1/2 chance of killing them near enough, which means it will only ever actually happen, in 1/4 games. And if you have no psykers, like many armies, it will never happen. And unless it happens on the first few turns, your psyker might be dead anyway, making it null and void.

Plus, I do not believe the flying hive tyrant is affected by it, as it's not a snapshot, but this may well be a whole other can of FAQ worms I am opening.

Point being, daemon's benefit from the fact that the warpstorm can soften up unit's. The 5 most likely result's on 2d6, are either the randomly hurting unit's on a 6+, or the result's that do nothing. It's only on a big fluke, do they get any of the good ones like the psyker popper. And they are just as likely to get the -1 to their own saves, or the whole , you know, armywide instability test, which could mutilate all your units

Guys I do play in tourneys but I am not a waac player in fact I have won best sports man over 5 times.

So I think I have some cred when talking about this from a casual gamers POV. Read the OP you are playing a buddy you took the time on a Saturday to get a game in and now because of one dice roll before any shots have been fired lets say the deamon player has the lord of change he dies thats 250pts in your list dead before any shots have been fired I think that would be incredibly frustrating and not any fun for both players.

 MDizzle wrote:
Guys I do play in tourneys but I am not a waac player in fact I have won best sports man over 5 times.

So I think I have some cred when talking about this from a casual gamers POV. Read the OP you are playing a buddy you took the time on a Saturday to get a game in and now because of one dice roll before any shots have been fired lets say the deamon player has the lord of change he dies thats 250pts in your list dead before any shots have been fired I think that would be incredibly frustrating and not any fun for both players.

It's exactly the same as getting a flukey shot with a tank weapon and instant killing their HQ turn one. Unlikely? Yes. Frustrating? ...No I'd say it would be a "OMGWTF, that was just...wow xD" moment.

A roll of 11 on the Warp Storm Table is not nearly as annoying as mind shackle scarabs or that stupid Necron pokemon ball.

 Madcat87 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

I hate it.

A lot of people seem to be using the pathetic excuse that you shouldn't complain about randomness in a game based around dice rolling. This ofcourse ignores the fact that every other roll in a game I make is because of decisions I have made. I can increase or decrease my chance of success by the decisions I make while playing game. This warpstorm table I have no power over.

For me personally this warpstorm table and a lot of the other randomness in the daemons codex breaks a personal game design philosphy that a game should never take control away from the player. If I lose or win a game I want it to be because I made the right decisions at the right time not because I got luck or unlucky on a random table that I have no control over. The CSM codex and their forced challenges is another example of taking control away from the played and I have seen many a player complain about things not going their way because they were forced to issue the challenge.

I'm actually very worreid about the direction GW is taking with the game and I am very worried about what a future Ork codex will look like.

I think this is a really good comment and well phrased; an exalt to you sir.

I agree with your sentiments: randomness (and therefore dice rolling) is acceptable; but should ideally have an element of control. It's when it gets taken out of your hands that it becomes questionable IMHO; particularly if the effects are widespread/influential.

 Just Dave wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

I hate it.

A lot of people seem to be using the pathetic excuse that you shouldn't complain about randomness in a game based around dice rolling. This ofcourse ignores the fact that every other roll in a game I make is because of decisions I have made. I can increase or decrease my chance of success by the decisions I make while playing game. This warpstorm table I have no power over.

For me personally this warpstorm table and a lot of the other randomness in the daemons codex breaks a personal game design philosphy that a game should never take control away from the player. If I lose or win a game I want it to be because I made the right decisions at the right time not because I got luck or unlucky on a random table that I have no control over. The CSM codex and their forced challenges is another example of taking control away from the played and I have seen many a player complain about things not going their way because they were forced to issue the challenge.

I'm actually very worreid about the direction GW is taking with the game and I am very worried about what a future Ork codex will look like.

I think this is a really good comment and well phrased; an exalt to you sir.

I agree with your sentiments: randomness (and therefore dice rolling) is acceptable; but should ideally have an element of control. It's when it gets taken out of your hands that it becomes questionable IMHO; particularly if the effects are widespread/influential.

Mysterious objectives, your objective explodes and kills your scoring unit.

Mysterious terrain, razorwing's eat your scouts.

The point of the warpstorm table, is that it has the potential to be powerful, or detrimental. Rather than giving you yet another thing to choose from, they instead said "Right, understand if you are playing daemons, you are playing an unpredictable force. While what you -could- do is powerful, you have no guarantees, and will have to work around the bad, to utilize the good.

Having an army that can't be predicted, like say, I can predict how a marine army will work the moment I see it on the board, but with daemons it will be different every time, is an advantage, one that is unique to daemons. Other armies get their own advantages (Scoring terminators, being good at range, being able to bring lots of tanks, being able to spam troops, ex, ex.), the advantage of daemons, is that they are unpredictable.

 Madcat87 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

Fateweaver.

If you guys that like the warp storm chart are so in to it I have a deamon army for sale BTW!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200901477801?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

I like the idea of it, considering that Daemons are supposed to be very chaotic, very unpredictable to fight, it works exactly as intended.

Setting up a strategy to kill a horde of Daemons fails because of the warp storm chart, because now your Daemons have chewed on a key part of your foce and switched positions across the table.

So what? This is what Daemons should do.

Random choices like this will certainly effect the game. Like the CSM boon chart. Or generating your psyker abilities from the new charts. The warp, pyskers, daemons, are meant to be chaotic, random, and very unpredictable.

Those using them, and fighting against them, will probably have to change their game plan mid fight due to a massive random occurance.

Randomness, however, will make them less a Competetive team to play as, but I still find it fun.

It's annoying and unnecessary, I really wish Phil didn't add it in.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Major game-changing event, you mean like when a psyker perils? Or you fail a leadership test? Or a reserve test? Or get a bad scatter roll for deepstriking? Or your opponent gets a lot of 6s on overwatch? Same with Rending?

Dude, EVERY role you make in 40k is potentially game changing. Adding ONE MORE isn't going to make it that much worse...

Every single example you just said there can be influenced by the actions of the player and can be controlled, the random warpstorm table can't be controlled.

Fateweaver.

Or any warlord that rolls for Lord of Fate on th Warlord table...

 MDizzle wrote:
If you guys that like the warp storm chart are so in to it I have a deamon army for sale BTW!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200901477801?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

If you were selling the individual units I might have bought some off you.