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I am waiting for sob stories like "Those overpowered Tzeentch daemons killed my Eldar after he blew up my runes of cheese with a roll on the warp storm table".

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
It would seem that this thread is split up into people in the "Fun Camp" and people in the "Fair Camp". I'm that guy sat in the middle.

To be honest, I can see this table being fine, providing that most TOs do the sensible thing and ban it. It's great for fun games, since you've got a great amount of randomness and unexpectedness going on which makes for an interesting, fun game with plenty of laughs. And, of course, if it is a fun game, and you don't like the table, most of the time you'll be able to agree with your opponent to not use it. Now, I also agree with the "Fair Camp" in that it's not, well, fair, or at least not in tournament games. The reason being is that it has the possibility to severely flip the game in one person's favour. It could blow apart the opponent's Eldrad, opening up holes and unsupported units, but at the same time an important daemon character of yours could explode. It's really not fair for either play to have this happen (especially if it goes bias either way) because it tears apart strategies that they've worked hard to implicate. The worst thing is that this is just something that happens. It's not a special rule form a unit or character, which'd be ok, because you'd have paid points for it etc etc, it's something that, if you're playing by the book, will definitely effect somebody, and usually badly.

So, tl;dr : Good in fun games, bad in tournament games, TOs should ban it.

So...Because nobody paid points for it, aside from it being apart of the army itself it should go away?

What if the entire army was technically +1 points because of that chart?

No, that's not what I mean. (And, due to the negative effects on the chart, I very much doubt that anything has had its price altered anyway). Say this rule came with a SC that cost, say, 200 points. In this instance, it wouldn't be so bad. If you didn't playing with it as a Daemons player, you don't have to take him (talking about tournaments here, so you may not necessarily be able to "forget about it"). In addition, you'll have paid points for this rule, which justifies any horrendous mishaps for your opponent (at least a bit, anyway) and, most importantly, were you to kill this character, the storm would go away.

MarsNZ wrote:
Same scenario, SW goes first and uses jaws on your warlord. That'd be different though, right?

Exactly this. Except you are guaranteed to get jaws of the warwolf, it doesnt carry a risk of killing yourself, and it's much, much more likely to kill said psyker than this chart is.

I think this is all pre-playing rage. People complaining have not played the new army, or have maybe played it once and had a bad time. But I can assure you. It doesn't wreak games. At all.

If, for instance, daemons got to destroy one HQ of their choice before a game, i'd be agreeing that's OP. But it's a 1/11 chance per turn, of even getting the result, and even then, you still take a test to see if they survive.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
It would seem that this thread is split up into people in the "Fun Camp" and people in the "Fair Camp". I'm that guy sat in the middle.

To be honest, I can see this table being fine, providing that most TOs do the sensible thing and ban it. It's great for fun games, since you've got a great amount of randomness and unexpectedness going on which makes for an interesting, fun game with plenty of laughs. And, of course, if it is a fun game, and you don't like the table, most of the time you'll be able to agree with your opponent to not use it. Now, I also agree with the "Fair Camp" in that it's not, well, fair, or at least not in tournament games. The reason being is that it has the possibility to severely flip the game in one person's favour. It could blow apart the opponent's Eldrad, opening up holes and unsupported units, but at the same time an important daemon character of yours could explode. It's really not fair for either play to have this happen (especially if it goes bias either way) because it tears apart strategies that they've worked hard to implicate. The worst thing is that this is just something that happens. It's not a special rule form a unit or character, which'd be ok, because you'd have paid points for it etc etc, it's something that, if you're playing by the book, will definitely effect somebody, and usually badly.

So, tl;dr : Good in fun games, bad in tournament games, TOs should ban it.

So...Because nobody paid points for it, aside from it being apart of the army itself it should go away?

What if the entire army was technically +1 points because of that chart?

No, that's not what I mean. (And, due to the negative effects on the chart, I very much doubt that anything has had its price altered anyway). Say this rule came with a SC that cost, say, 200 points. In this instance, it wouldn't be so bad. If you didn't playing with it as a Daemons player, you don't have to take him (talking about tournaments here, so you may not necessarily be able to "forget about it"). In addition, you'll have paid points for this rule, which justifies any horrendous mishaps for your opponent (at least a bit, anyway) and, most importantly, were you to kill this character, the storm would go away.

We don't pay point's, because it has as many negatives for us, as positives. As I said before, there is no character giving ATSKNF, but it doesn't mean i'd call it overpowered, and demand you play without it.

It's bad results, are worse than it's good result's. double 1, everything in the army, rolls instability. That could make everything in our army, lose half or more of it's wound's. Tell me again, why I should pay for that priveledge?

 juraigamer wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:
This is just more evidence for my theory that GW themselves are trying to kill the tournament aspect of their games.

I prefer to think of this as them trying to kill off their WAAC players.

Have to agree. The sooner the "everything must be 'uber competitive all the time" crowd leave, the better...

I just finished my first game with the new codex today vs a good friend of mine and his Deathwing. (horrible, horrible match-up for non-Slaaneshii Daemons btw!)
He's a competitive player who likes to play to win, but unlike those who tend to belittle and rage at things like the newer tables, he sees it for what it is - a new curveball/advanatage/quirk of said army.

The Warpstorm table actually kicked me in balls today too. 1st turn I got -1 saves, 2nd & 3rd turns, Slaanesh then Nurgle did the happy-dance all over the table. (and here I am with a primarily Khorne & Tzeentch army - oops!) 4th turn at which point my buddy firmly hade the upper hand, I finally got +1 save and it nearly helped pull me back into the fight! (my HoK on the other hand... yeah, he's a real champ - rolled snake-eyes to-hit twice in a row and then copped it to a measely Librarian! )

It was solid fun though, and every single turn my friend was sweating a bit wondering what the Warpstorm would pull this coming turn and if/how it would affect how things were going.

Daemons don't get "normal" things like transports, gunlines, wargear, or even decent armour saves!
Instead, we get the ability to tailor our upgrades to a point AND the Warpstorm to provide army-wide abilities. (though only Tzeentch knows what you'll get!)

Whether it's fun or not, it's just bad design.

The chart doesn't require user input, it just _happens_. It's not a reward for good play it's just something completely random that may be good or bad.

Personally, I don't derive fun from that.

If I do something and an unexpected event happens I'll have fun (because it was unexpected and/or unusual). Like a lowly chaos cultist champion turning into a Daemon Prince.. Me making that last minute 12" charge and winning the game..

In this case you just roll every turn and stuff happens for no reason. And it MAY just win you the game or lose it all in one go. For no effort.

 Shandara wrote:
Whether it's fun or not, it's just bad design.

The chart doesn't require user input, it just _happens_. It's not a reward for good play it's just something completely random that may be good or bad.

Personally, I don't derive fun from that.

If I do something and an unexpected event happens I'll have fun (because it was unexpected and/or unusual). Like a lowly chaos cultist champion turning into a Daemon Prince.. Me making that last minute 12" charge and winning the game..

In this case you just roll every turn and stuff happens for no reason. And it MAY just win you the game or lose it all in one go. For no effort.

It's affect's are not so game-changing, that victory and defeat hinge on what you roll on that chart. At worst, it's a minor inconvenience to you or your opponent.

No more than the randomness of a blast scattering onto your own unit unexpectedly, is game changing, or ruins the fun of the game with it's randomness

It's not like the warpstorm chart became a rule in 6th ed. It became a rule in one army, and the point is, if you like the randomness, and unpredictability, you play a daemons army, and use both to your advantage, if you like rigidity, you don't play a chaotic force, you play a dependable force, and use that to your advantage.

The weakness is, you might roll bad. The benefit is, you opponent cannot rely on gimmicks, or one trick ponies, or "The internet told me how to beat your army", to best you, because your army is different every time.

It's really that simple.

 Evileyes wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it's neat, and gives the feel of fighting in a warp storm.

Remember that the odds of rolling an 11 and potentially killing a random enemy psyker are exactly the same as rolling a 3 and potentially killing a random character with Daemonic Instability. An opposing player who is not fielding any psyker is totally immune to this result. The army which has all psykers for its HQs is Grey Knights, who have plenty of other psykers in the list, so massively reduce the chances that the expensive HQ will be selected. They also, of course, have plenty of other benefits against Daemons. The army this hurts most is Eldar, as Phoenix Lords aren't all that great for most builds; most folks field a Farseer. But Eldar can also field warlocks to reduce the risk to the Farseer, and they're overdue for their codex anyway, and perhaps they'll get some other protection when it arrives.

The random hits ones have a low probability of hitting an important and vulnerable unit. The 12 result can be mitigated by surrounding objectives, making it harder or impossible for the Daemon player to Deep Strike a new unit into range to hold the objective, or at least increasing the chances that they'll mishap if they try.

And we need something against eldar, as now eldrad is seriously scary for anyone not playing khorne, or pure hordes.

Try exploiting Eldrad's weaknesses. (I'll give you a hint: the rest of his army. Also, he's not scary to people who choose not to rely on psychers)

 Evileyes wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Same scenario, SW goes first and uses jaws on your warlord. That'd be different though, right?

Exactly this. Except you are guaranteed to get jaws of the warwolf, it doesnt carry a risk of killing yourself, and it's much, much more likely to kill said psyker than this chart is.

Jaws will reach roughly 5% of the enemy's deployment zone, more if you drop pod the priest or bump his movement with a Rhino. Still, you'll know where he is. You can take precautions against this by deploying your psycher in a vehicle, in reserve, further back the deployment zone or on second floor or higher of a ruin. Or in a building.

When using Jaws, t's still a shooting attack so you must still roll to hit. That's 1/3 to fail. 1/6 if he's got chooser. You're also getting a deny the witch save of at least a 5+, well it's 6+ if he's not "shooting at" your psycher but we're discussing psychers. After this you get an initiative test and we're going to assume you're not Eldrad 'cause casting Jaws in that case can be a bit daft, but rather assume you're a Space Marine who's not been touched by Slaanesh so you get a 2/3 of saving.This means you've got 14.8% chance of losing your psycher. More if he's got chooser, less if you're higher psycher level, even less if you've got anti-psycher gear such as hoods, and none if you've taken proper precautions as mentioned before - well or taken the precaution of killing the priest. Also, since the line ends when touching a friendly model the priest must be somewhat exposed.
So,
Jaws: 4/27, which you can do a lot about
Storm: 1/36, which you can't do anything about at all
...and it's this "that you can do something about" is the important bit. I think people would be playing craps if they wanted to play purely on chance, wargaming is about stacking the odds.

 The Shadow wrote:
It would seem that this thread is split up into people in the "Fun Camp" and people in the "Fair Camp". I'm that guy sat in the middle.

To be honest, I can see this table being fine, providing that most TOs do the sensible thing and ban it. It's great for fun games, since you've got a great amount of randomness and unexpectedness going on which makes for an interesting, fun game with plenty of laughs. And, of course, if it is a fun game, and you don't like the table, most of the time you'll be able to agree with your opponent to not use it. Now, I also agree with the "Fair Camp" in that it's not, well, fair, or at least not in tournament games. The reason being is that it has the possibility to severely flip the game in one person's favour. It could blow apart the opponent's Eldrad, opening up holes and unsupported units, but at the same time an important daemon character of yours could explode. It's really not fair for either play to have this happen (especially if it goes bias either way) because it tears apart strategies that they've worked hard to implicate. The worst thing is that this is just something that happens. It's not a special rule form a unit or character, which'd be ok, because you'd have paid points for it etc etc, it's something that, if you're playing by the book, will definitely effect somebody, and usually badly.

So, tl;dr : Good in fun games, bad in tournament games, TOs should ban it.

That's crazy, no to is going to ban it lol, it's part of the internal balance of codex daemons. You would sooner see them banning codex grey knights or necron flyers.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it's neat, and gives the feel of fighting in a warp storm.

Remember that the odds of rolling an 11 and potentially killing a random enemy psyker are exactly the same as rolling a 3 and potentially killing a random character with Daemonic Instability. An opposing player who is not fielding any psyker is totally immune to this result. The army which has all psykers for its HQs is Grey Knights, who have plenty of other psykers in the list, so massively reduce the chances that the expensive HQ will be selected. They also, of course, have plenty of other benefits against Daemons. The army this hurts most is Eldar, as Phoenix Lords aren't all that great for most builds; most folks field a Farseer. But Eldar can also field warlocks to reduce the risk to the Farseer, and they're overdue for their codex anyway, and perhaps they'll get some other protection when it arrives.

The random hits ones have a low probability of hitting an important and vulnerable unit. The 12 result can be mitigated by surrounding objectives, making it harder or impossible for the Daemon player to Deep Strike a new unit into range to hold the objective, or at least increasing the chances that they'll mishap if they try.

And we need something against eldar, as now eldrad is seriously scary for anyone not playing khorne, or pure hordes.

Try exploiting Eldrad's weaknesses. (I'll give you a hint: the rest of his army. Also, he's not scary to people who choose not to rely on psychers)

 Evileyes wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Same scenario, SW goes first and uses jaws on your warlord. That'd be different though, right?

Exactly this. Except you are guaranteed to get jaws of the warwolf, it doesnt carry a risk of killing yourself, and it's much, much more likely to kill said psyker than this chart is.

Jaws will reach roughly 5% of the enemy's deployment zone, more if you drop pod the priest or bump his movement with a Rhino. Still, you'll know where he is. You can take precautions against this by deploying your psycher in a vehicle, in reserve, further back the deployment zone or on second floor or higher of a ruin. Or in a building.

When using Jaws, t's still a shooting attack so you must still roll to hit. That's 1/3 to fail. 1/6 if he's got chooser. You're also getting a deny the witch save of at least a 5+, well it's 6+ if he's not "shooting at" your psycher but we're discussing psychers. After this you get an initiative test and we're going to assume you're not Eldrad 'cause casting Jaws in that case can be a bit daft, but rather assume you're a Space Marine who's not been touched by Slaanesh so you get a 2/3 of saving.This means you've got 14.8% chance of losing your psycher. More if he's got chooser, less if you're higher psycher level, even less if you've got anti-psycher gear such as hoods, and none if you've taken proper precautions as mentioned before - well or taken the precaution of killing the priest. Also, since the line ends when touching a friendly model the priest must be somewhat exposed.
So,
Jaws: 4/27, which you can do a lot about
Storm: 1/36, which you can't do anything about at all
...and it's this "that you can do something about" is the important bit. I think people would be playing craps if they wanted to play purely on chance, wargaming is about stacking the odds.

Then stack the odd's. Decide to yourself, if it's worth relying on Eldrad, if there is a 1/36 chance he might have to make a save which kills him.

Me, personally, i'd be like "Meh, he is more likely to die to his own perils than this chart, so what?" But that's just me.

It's not even like we get to pick the target. It's a random enemy psyker. So, if you have eldrad, and some farseers or warlocks or whatever eldar have these days that are psykers, it could just pop one of them instead. If it even pops it at all.

 Evileyes wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Whether it's fun or not, it's just bad design.

The chart doesn't require user input, it just _happens_. It's not a reward for good play it's just something completely random that may be good or bad.

Personally, I don't derive fun from that.

If I do something and an unexpected event happens I'll have fun (because it was unexpected and/or unusual). Like a lowly chaos cultist champion turning into a Daemon Prince.. Me making that last minute 12" charge and winning the game..

In this case you just roll every turn and stuff happens for no reason. And it MAY just win you the game or lose it all in one go. For no effort.

It's affect's are not so game-changing, that victory and defeat hinge on what you roll on that chart. At worst, it's a minor inconvenience to you or your opponent.

No more than the randomness of a blast scattering onto your own unit unexpectedly, is game changing, or ruins the fun of the game with it's randomness

But it isnt unexpected the scattering blast is another case of a player weighing up the risk vs. reward and deciding that the risk of scattering onto your troops is worth reward of killing your enemy. This warpstorm table has none of that decision making and weighing up the risks.

A lot of the posters here need to understand that just because we are using dice doesnt mean everything that happend in the game is entirely uncontrollable.

I think the tournament scene should shift from a "win at all costs" type of mentality to a "fun with new people" mentality. Doing this would change how many people see the changes they are making by adding in things like these random effects charts. No longer would they seem like unfair/game breaking additions or arbitrary nuisances added for no discernible purpose, instead they are fun wrinkles that may blow up the wrong thing at the wrong time. The sooner people stop taking GW's games seriously the better imo.
'

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Whether it's fun or not, it's just bad design.

The chart doesn't require user input, it just _happens_. It's not a reward for good play it's just something completely random that may be good or bad.

Personally, I don't derive fun from that.

If I do something and an unexpected event happens I'll have fun (because it was unexpected and/or unusual). Like a lowly chaos cultist champion turning into a Daemon Prince.. Me making that last minute 12" charge and winning the game..

In this case you just roll every turn and stuff happens for no reason. And it MAY just win you the game or lose it all in one go. For no effort.

It's affect's are not so game-changing, that victory and defeat hinge on what you roll on that chart. At worst, it's a minor inconvenience to you or your opponent.

No more than the randomness of a blast scattering onto your own unit unexpectedly, is game changing, or ruins the fun of the game with it's randomness

But it isnt unexpected the scattering blast is another case of a player weighing up the risk vs. reward and deciding that the risk of scattering onto your troops is worth reward of killing your enemy. This warpstorm table has none of that decision making and weighing up the risks.

A lot of the posters here need to understand that just because we are using dice doesnt mean everything that happend in the game is entirely uncontrollable.

If you are scared of the warp table, take a transport. The "Random" effect's, won't hurt it as much as they hurt things out in the open.

There, I suggested a way for you to mitigate the damage of the thing. So it's not just a case of "It just happens and there is nothing I can do about it any more"

Here's another one, if you are scared of the tiny chance of your main psyker popping? Take more than one psyker, since it's random, you can ensure its unlikely your main psyker will die to it.

But to be honest, warpstorm result's, are really not very strong in comparison to the -actual shooting- that most armies get.

It doesnt matter if its a warpstorm or a vindicator, random, or planned, you should be prepared for thing's getting killed, and for your enemy to not react the way you think they will. Daemon's take that out of the equation, and rather than saying "There is a good chance he will take out this one thing" its more "There is a very slight chance of anything being hurt if I let it happen"

I really cannot beleive quite how much rage there is, over such a simple, weak, gimmicky thing in our book. One book out of 16, get's something unpredictable, and oh dear, tournament's are dead, world is over.

 Evileyes wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Same scenario, SW goes first and uses jaws on your warlord. That'd be different though, right?

Exactly this.

I'm sorry but "exactly this" is not supporting your way in the slightest.

List time I checked JOTWW since it's introduction was widely branded as not a good game mechanic and not very balanced. "Something similar (that I think is crappy) exist so my thing is not crappy" doesn't really strike as logical. If you don't like jaws (I'm guessing you don't, but I can't be sure), I find it strange that you approve of similar mechanic (single test, bypassing all Wounds, toughness, saves, escape mechanics, LoS, the other LoS etc..) and defend this one. I think most of the other people will say: I am pissed off when jaws eats my warlord, how does that make zapping my psyker with a single LD any better?

Also, similar to the Runes of Warding or Imhotek, it affects the whole table / every unit. Now the problem is scalability. How does it scale with different point ranges? Affecting 1 in 6 units will be different in 1k battle and different in 6k apoc game. Inversely with summoning additional unit / blowing up enemy psyker.

DISCLAMER:
I'm not saying the table is bad, because I haven't seen the whole codex. What I can try to do is show you why people are averse to the chart. It does have similarities with other "not especially loved" mechanics ("pokeball" - love that one Mohoc, jotww, RoW, Imhotek) in the game so it automatically brings negative association.

 Evileyes wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Whether it's fun or not, it's just bad design.

The chart doesn't require user input, it just _happens_. It's not a reward for good play it's just something completely random that may be good or bad.

Personally, I don't derive fun from that.

If I do something and an unexpected event happens I'll have fun (because it was unexpected and/or unusual). Like a lowly chaos cultist champion turning into a Daemon Prince.. Me making that last minute 12" charge and winning the game..

In this case you just roll every turn and stuff happens for no reason. And it MAY just win you the game or lose it all in one go. For no effort.

It's affect's are not so game-changing, that victory and defeat hinge on what you roll on that chart. At worst, it's a minor inconvenience to you or your opponent.

No more than the randomness of a blast scattering onto your own unit unexpectedly, is game changing, or ruins the fun of the game with it's randomness

But it isnt unexpected the scattering blast is another case of a player weighing up the risk vs. reward and deciding that the risk of scattering onto your troops is worth reward of killing your enemy. This warpstorm table has none of that decision making and weighing up the risks.

A lot of the posters here need to understand that just because we are using dice doesnt mean everything that happend in the game is entirely uncontrollable.

If you are scared of the warp table, take a transport. The "Random" effect's, won't hurt it as much as they hurt things out in the open.

There, I suggested a way for you to mitigate the damage of the thing. So it's not just a case of "It just happens and there is nothing I can do about it any more"

Here's another one, if you are scared of the tiny chance of your main psyker popping? Take more than one psyker, since it's random, you can ensure its unlikely your main psyker will die to it.

But to be honest, warpstorm result's, are really not very strong in comparison to the -actual shooting- that most armies get.

It doesnt matter if its a warpstorm or a vindicator, random, or planned, you should be prepared for thing's getting killed, and for your enemy to not react the way you think they will. Daemon's take that out of the equation, and rather than saying "There is a good chance he will take out this one thing" its more "There is a very slight chance of anything being hurt if I let it happen"

I really cannot beleive quite how much rage there is, over such a simple, weak, gimmicky thing in our book. One book out of 16, get's something unpredictable, and oh dear, tournament's are dead, world is over.

I am not complaining about the effectd of the table itself I am complaining about GWs design decision of taking control away from the player. This is also seen with the new heralds as you can no longer build the how you want instead you pay for the "privlege" of rolling on another table to see how useful or ehat role your herald fulfil this game.

 Macok wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Same scenario, SW goes first and uses jaws on your warlord. That'd be different though, right?

Exactly this.

I'm sorry but "exactly this" is not supporting your way in the slightest.

List time I checked JOTWW since it's introduction was widely branded as not a good game mechanic and not very balanced. "Something similar (that I think is crappy) exist so my thing is not crappy" doesn't really strike as logical. If you don't like jaws (I'm guessing you don't, but I can't be sure), I find it strange that you approve of similar mechanic (single test, bypassing all Wounds, toughness, saves, escape mechanics, LoS, the other LoS etc..) and defend this one. I think most of the other people will say: I am pissed off when jaws eats my warlord, how does that make zapping my psyker with a single LD any better?

Also, similar to the Runes of Warding or Imhotek, it affects the whole table / every unit. Now the problem is scalability. How does it scale with different point ranges? Affecting 1 in 6 units will be different in 1k battle and different in 6k apoc game. Inversely with summoning additional unit / blowing up enemy psyker.

DISCLAMER:
I'm not saying the table is bad, because I haven't seen the whole codex. What I can try to do is show you why people are averse to the chart. It does have similarities with other "not especially loved" mechanics ("pokeball" - love that one Mohoc, jotww, RoW, Imhotek) in the game so it automatically brings negative association.

My only complaint, is that people are really making a mountain out of a molehill. I meant "Exactly this" to say, there are thing's much, much worse, than the thing's on this table. Especially with you only having a small chance of rolling something really useful.

I mean, would you rather have this fairly tame chart, or flamer/screamerspam back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
If, for instance, daemons got to destroy one HQ of their choice before a game, i'd be agreeing that's OP. But it's a 1/11 chance per turn, of even getting the result, and even then, you still take a test to see if they survive.

And the point is that it would be better in some ways if they just automatically got to destroy it. Auto-killing an HQ would be an ability you pay for, a decision you make, and something you know and plan to counter if you're playing against demons. Instead it's a 1/11 chance to randomly happen. You can't plan for it, you don't make meaningful choices with it, you don't do anything to deserve it, it's just "did I get lucky today". It takes more of the game out of the hands of the players and give it to the dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
I mean, would you rather have this fairly tame chart, or flamer/screamerspam back?

And, again, you're missing the point. It's not about balance, it's about randomness. There isn't a choice between overpowered mistakes and "cinematic" stupidity, GW could have picked the third option of making demons a balanced army without more obnoxious random tables.

Chaos is chaotic, that's part of the flavor of the army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
If, for instance, daemons got to destroy one HQ of their choice before a game, i'd be agreeing that's OP. But it's a 1/11 chance per turn, of even getting the result, and even then, you still take a test to see if they survive.

And the point is that it would be better in some ways if they just automatically got to destroy it. Auto-killing an HQ would be an ability you pay for, a decision you make, and something you know and plan to counter if you're playing against demons. Instead it's a 1/11 chance to randomly happen. You can't plan for it, you don't make meaningful choices with it, you don't do anything to deserve it, it's just "did I get lucky today". It takes more of the game out of the hands of the players and give it to the dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
I mean, would you rather have this fairly tame chart, or flamer/screamerspam back?

And, again, you're missing the point. It's not about balance, it's about randomness. There isn't a choice between overpowered mistakes and "cinematic" stupidity, GW could have picked the third option of making demons a balanced army without more obnoxious random tables.

There are 15 other armies, if you don't like random, though. Daemons, are for those who do like it. No-one is forcing you to run daemons.

 Evileyes wrote:
There are 15 other armies, if you don't like random, though. Daemons, are for those who do like it. No-one is forcing you to run daemons.

And, again, it still applies if you play against demons. Unless you want to be TFG who refuses to play against certain armies you still have to deal with the random table.

Mohoc wrote:
I am waiting for sob stories like "Those overpowered Tzeentch daemons killed my Eldar after he blew up my runes of cheese with a roll on the warp storm table".

I'm waiting for even more sob stories of 3++ re-rollable bloodthirsters and T10 GUO...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
There are 15 other armies, if you don't like random, though. Daemons, are for those who do like it. No-one is forcing you to run daemons.

And, again, it still applies if you play against demons. Unless you want to be TFG who refuses to play against certain armies you still have to deal with the random table.

And...your point? You can't stand having a few of your games having a minor random element? The game still comes down to who played better, no matter how the player rolls on the chart.

Theres a lot of people in this thread that keep saying its only 1/36 chance or 1/11 chance to maybe kill a psyker. The actual odds are 1/18 to roll an 11. And even then it's almost 50/50 the psyker will pass the ld test as most psykers are ld 10.

 Evileyes wrote:
And...your point? You can't stand having a few of your games having a minor random element?

"The random table says your expensive HQ randomly dies" isn't a minor random element.

The game still comes down to who played better, no matter how the player rolls on the chart.

The fact that the better player probably still wins doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
I think the tournament scene should shift from a "win at all costs" type of mentality to a "fun with new people" mentality. Doing this would change how many people see the changes they are making by adding in things like these random effects charts. No longer would they seem like unfair/game breaking additions or arbitrary nuisances added for no discernible purpose, instead they are fun wrinkles that may blow up the wrong thing at the wrong time. The sooner people stop taking GW's games seriously the better imo.'

Agreed, except IME the tournament scene is already like this. There are overly-competitive people out there, but 90%+ of the good players out there are already relaxed and looking to have fun with new people (while still aiming to win games), and they regard things like the Warm Storm table, or Tzeentch Flamers & Screamers (which were far worse and deadlier), or 5th ed Space Wolves with Jaws, as interesting challenges and things to adapt to.

The guys who rant and complain are a small minority, most of whom are trying to stir up controvery to drive clicks and advertising revenue for their blogs.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
And...your point? You can't stand having a few of your games having a minor random element?

"The random table says your expensive HQ randomly dies" isn't a minor random element.

The game still comes down to who played better, no matter how the player rolls on the chart.

The fact that the better player probably still wins doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

It's one result. It affects a random psyker, most armes don't even have a psyker, but those that do, tend to have more than just one super important one. Even then, its only a 50% or so chance it works.

Mountain, out of a molehill. Seriously.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
I am waiting for sob stories like "Those overpowered Tzeentch daemons killed my Eldar after he blew up my runes of cheese with a roll on the warp storm table".

I'm waiting for even more sob stories of 3++ re-rollable bloodthirsters and T10 GUO...

I was trying to be nice. I have been thinking of other cheese in the meantime. For example the fact that fiends reduce your initiative by 5, without preventing you from dropping someone below 0, instantly removing all units with less than 6 initiative from the board if they are charged by the fiends.

t's one result. It affects a random psyker, most armes don't even have a psyker

all imperials run libbies and/or rune priests , all eldar run eldrad , all tau run eldar , a lot of DE run seers as ally , all nids hav psykers , , chaos runs tyfus in zombi builds and offten sorc as a second HQ , GK run psykers . So yeah BT and sob dont run psykers , neither do orcs because their suck and necron ,so unless aside of those 4 there are only 3 other dex made by GW , most armies do run psykers.



my only problem with the table is that it makes the game even longer , with even more rolling . It would have been fun , if the table had random/fun stuff. units of demons teleporting around [and being able to charge] or enemy units being teleported around , something that would require skill to use or at least gave tactical options . Right now it is as "fun" as storm lords blitzing.

Its like Dreadfleet, and dreadfleet was lame.

Its like the 3rd panel in this: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/05/25

 Evileyes wrote:
It's one result. It affects a random psyker, most armes don't even have a psyker, but those that do, tend to have more than just one super important one. Even then, its only a 50% or so chance it works.

Again. You're missing the point entirely.

1) It's not about whether it's overpowered or not, it's about how random it is. There is a huge difference in results on the table, and it has nothing to do with any kind of player choices. Sometimes it has no impact, sometimes it randomly screws over one or both players. Just like various other random tables in 6th edition it takes things out of the hands of the players and gives them to random chance.

2) The relative rarity makes it worse, not better. Instead of a consistent event that you can reasonably predict and make plans for you have a rare "oops, you lose" outcome. Consider the difference between missing a shot with an average BS 2 ork vs. missing a shot with a twin-linked BS 5 model. One is something you expect to happen all the time and you don't really care about, the other makes you smash your dice in frustration.

I personally love the chart, as it adds so much to the flavor of the army. Sure, its not predictable, but hell's bells its freakin' CHAOS! Plus, I look at it as simply part of the army, just like ATSKNF with Space Marines or overpowered, undercosted units with Necrons.

Just like when playing Eldar or Space Wolves, people will stop taking psykers against Daemons, and since that's the only thing non-Daemon players are really bitching about, it will blow over pretty quick, especially after folks realize how fragile the army is.