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Mohoc wrote:

To be honest, when I first read the codex I hated the idea of the Warp Storm Chart. After playing a few games with it, I have no issues with it. I still don't like that DI is being modified by the combat result though. That one still pisses me off.

Well, Daemonic Instability is still nowhere near as horribad as it was in 6th ed Fantasy which was the last time they really tried it.

At least we only insta-pop the entire unit on boxcars...
In 6th Fantasy, if you simply rolled over your base Ld you lost your entire unit! (and daemons were pretty much across the board Ld8 - so you lost whole units on a consistant basis just for losing a combat by 1pt.)

In my first game, I didn't pop entire units through DI until I was down to just 5-6 models in my Troops units. Still annoying, but I was going to lose those units within another turn anyways considering they were in combat with Deathwing Termies!

I have recently started playing daemons and imho the tables' gamechanging-ness is being blown way out of proportion, in a game where maybe you play space marines who usually dont bring a lot of psykers (gk usually do though) heck a roll of 11 Daemonic possesion wouldn't do squat. There are not one but a few possiblities on the table that nothing happens, personally the other day when i was facing BLUHD RAVNS my skull taker got 2 wounds killing him because of a roll on the table (punished by the gods.) well yeah he was punished but i went on to victory glancing my foe's storm talon to death with 2 blood letters. the table really isnt that bad. And i couldn't stand playing an opponent who wants to not play with the whole dang warp storm table! That in itself is limiting the freedom of the player.

I think the table is bad if it leads to even more random tables being included in the game.

Sixth edition already has too many questionable rules and mechanics that slow the game down without actually improving it.

The random tables in the new demon books are there mostly because the designers are too lazy to playtest and balance rules. Seriously, this is the kind of rule design that you would expect from an early eighties role playing game.

JWhex wrote:
I think the table is bad if it leads to even more random tables being included in the game.

Sixth edition already has too many questionable rules and mechanics that slow the game down without actually improving it.

The random tables in the new demon books are there mostly because the designers are too lazy to playtest and balance rules. Seriously, this is the kind of rule design that you would expect from an early eighties role playing game.

There is no evidence to support the idea that the warpstorm table will lead to more random tables. The DA codex didn't have them after this same issue was brought up with the Chaos Rewards table from CSM. Chances are good the Tau won't have any either.

Your last comment makes no sense. How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting? No, the lazy way would have been to just make every unit undercosted with good stats, no weaknesses, and require no thought on how to use them (ie, the Wardian method).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

Spetulhu wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

The 11 result on the Warpstorm table is also a big part of our army's psychic defense. It's simply not nearly as reliable say a psy hood or Runes of Win or the Aegis or SitW and the like, but it can arguably hurt more when it does happen.

And I dare say it's not nearly as bad as crap like MSS or Psycho 'nades or Jaws-spam...

Spetulhu wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
How is it "lazy" to create a table that has 12 very different results that simulates the ebb and flow of a warpstorm for an army that is supposed to be made up of the power of the warp, and just by including such a table, would require a bit more playtesting?

I don't think any actual play testing took place. While the table can hit both sides the daemons also get relatively cheap methods to avoid it, a really easy one being to not mix too many different chaos gods in the army. I've only seen two games vs the new codex so far but the table either did nothing or hurt the opponent in some way. Best one being a SW Rune Priest blown away for free. What fun is that?

How much fun is it that SW get a 24" bubble of eff-you when at best I get. a bubble of..well, nothing, as I play Chaos Marines?

CHaos Daemons, despite being daemons, have very little pschic defence / screwing about capability. this 1/18 result is one of those defences.

As for not being able to mitigate last turn drops - well I thin that point has been covered. For Purge if you have a psyker who COULD give away a VP from the 1/11 result, for example - then plan ahead fo rthis eventuality by trying to build up a 2VP buffer. You cant get to 1VP ahead and hide away anylonger, you have to got for a more decisive gap which may have more risk attached to it.

Overall this table is a very, very good things for the game in my opinion, and the opinion of most people down the gaming clubI go to, and the tournament / other club players I speak to.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Overall this table is a very, very good things for the game in my opinion, and the opinion of most people down the gaming clubI go to, and the tournament / other club players I speak to.

I completely agree. When I first read that the old Daemon deployment model was gone I figured they decided to get rid of the Daemon's flavor. However, the table added that flavor back in. So far I've only played against Daemons and as an opponent I think it's a bit fun to see what else the dark gods want to through down.

I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

OK, we get a free 'squad'....wow...so a 1:36 chance of getting a squad breaks the game? So is it game breaking how expensive getting decent models in our army is? How about how pathetic some of our supposedly best units are? How about the fact that with almost no exception we don't have a model with a better save than 5++....big whoop that it's invulnerable...with 20 shots, 10 wounds, we save 1-2 of them and still loose almost our entire squad. Is the fact that our leaderships are mostly 7 and the fact that we are the ONLY fearless army that takes more wounds from losing combat now? When you look at any one thing - you could say it is game breaking....but when taken as a whole - you have to look at the balance overall, not just one aspect.

OK - there is more rolls...well, guess what, the psychic powers added more randomness - does that mean that the game is so horrible? Does that make it worse? It is purely another aspect of the game....deal with it or go play something else. Oh - and for those that say this is not something that is 'logical' or whatever - guess what - they will eventually come out with different rules, change the whole game again. This is THEIR game, not ours - we can choose to play it or not...that is the shakes of life...suck it up buttercup.

As for its use in a tournament - that is up to the organizer - but as a CD player, I would tell them that doing so is arbitrarily removing rules from an army - and that it is unfair treatment. It is part of what we deal with as CD players and taking our special rules is like taking ATSKNF, Reanimation Protocol, Mob Rulez, Force Weapons, etc....If a TO decided to just state at the tourney that they were getting rid of the table because my opponent bitched...I would walk...You can pick and choose stuff all we want - but removing army rules is not only prejudiced, but ridiculous.

It depends on your perception of 40k. If you think its a fully tactical and strategic game, where the superior general wins(lawl) you wouldn't like it. It takes too much control away, as a warp spawned daemon army should.

I like it. I try to create fun, cinematic experiences for me and my opponent, but then, I gave up trying to play against the store lurkers and stale list spammers long before 6th, so I wouldn't know how they feel about it

If your playing with a psyker against a soul hungry, warp stormy daemon army, you damn well better have a bad time. Its fun, fluffy and adds flavour to a somewhat stale game. Daemons are one of the few unique armies left, and limiting their abilities or stripping them of anything different from the norm would only be detrimental.

 Amaraxis wrote:
I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

Um, Tyranids? Not a lot of Troop-based shooting there, either.

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

This point comes up over and over and over again. It's not about whether the table is "overpowered" or devastating; by and large, it isn't. It's not about whether or not other bad things exist; they certainly do. It's about whether a purely random roll, completely out of the hands of both players, that can have game-altering effects at any given moment is the sort of game mechanic that you believe a tabletop wargame like 40k should include. For myself, the answer is "no." And I do play Daemons.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:
I am with the guy earlier who said that this is being blown out of proportion...

Here is the deal - we are the ONLY army in the ENTIRE GAME that has a troop choice who's entire shooting can be denied AFTER the roll to do it is made (Pink Horrors). We are also the ONLY army in the game that has no REAL shooting in troops - we are, at the core, an assault army, regardless what the other slots give us. Whatever anyone says, troops are how you win the game (and lose by their loss)

Um, Tyranids? Not a lot of Troop-based shooting there, either.

Actually, i think the only troop that does not get is are Genestealer and Hormaguants. Termaguants do PHENOMENAL shooting - especially with overwatch now. Also - their shooting is REAL shooting - not just a psychic attack - which isn't true shooting.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:

The warp storm table is no more devastating then Termies, Marbo, Heldrakes or any other "overpowered" unit. It is really the only major shooting that we have. 'But you can remove one of our psykers and get a free HQ'...yeah - we get a free 45-55 points (cause it is a BASE model) that sits within inches of your BA squad (in most cases). One little herald is not much in the grand scheme and you losing your model is no more potent then any other model - like a Vindicare or such....the limit - we only hit Psykers.

This point comes up over and over and over again. It's not about whether the table is "overpowered" or devastating; by and large, it isn't. It's not about whether or not other bad things exist; they certainly do. It's about whether a purely random roll, completely out of the hands of both players, that can have game-altering effects at any given moment is the sort of game mechanic that you believe a tabletop wargame like 40k should include. For myself, the answer is "no." And I do play Daemons.

That is the thing - every possible roll is a potential game changer. It has been brought up before, but it people seem to dismiss it. Any DS is game changing and out of players' hands. Yes, there is mitigating factors of BS skill (which you pay for) and probability. The thing is - the probability of the table is skewed also - the highest chances are first: getting the random damage effects; and next is nothing happening. This is all just as random as hitting/missing in combat, landing properly in DS. The thing is - people have come to learn that DS and it's chances are part of the game. Just like this table - it is now a part of the game and people will have to deal.

Everything is out of the hands of the players - we can mitigate all we want (just like there are ways to mitigate the WS table - LoC and instruments) - it is all completely out of our hands. Otherwise, we would just be doing MathHammer and go with straight exact probabilities as facts...

What's bad for 40k is the internet. This is just a table to add some randomness to the (wait for it) Chaos Daemons.

If you guys are having a problem with a grand total of ONE table that adds a random effect to the game then i couldn't believe the reaction with more random tables! Oh huh, let me think, there is scattering - random out of the control of the players unless cheating - there are tests, loads of tests! Armor saves! What is the problem with adding one more random roll? We already live amongst them, and that goes along with taking away freedom, fun, you name it from the player. The roll on the warp storm table does not take away a lot of freedom from the player, but adds an edge to every turn. "ooh what am i going to get this turn! maybe another set of bloodletters! ope. no i have to take a 3d6 ld test. bam my skulltaker is dead." its a love hate relationship, but in my eyes its a fun one.

if you have a problem with that kinda stuff, maybe you should take a different glance at the game, maybe instead of daemons as a primary, maybe you should take 'em as allies. Maybe you should sell the army if it upsets you so much. But by god don't whine about the dang thing.

 wolfmerc wrote:
If you guys are having a problem with a grand total of ONE table that adds a random effect to the game then i couldn't believe the reaction with more random tables! Oh huh, let me think, there is scattering - random out of the control of the players unless cheating - there are tests, loads of tests! Armor saves! What is the problem with adding one more random roll? We already live amongst them, and that goes along with taking away freedom, fun, you name it from the player. The roll on the warp storm table does not take away a lot of freedom from the player, but adds an edge to every turn. "ooh what am i going to get this turn! maybe another set of bloodletters! ope. no i have to take a 3d6 ld test. bam my skulltaker is dead." its a love hate relationship, but in my eyes its a fun one.

if you have a problem with that kinda stuff, maybe you should take a different glance at the game, maybe instead of daemons as a primary, maybe you should take 'em as allies. Maybe you should sell the army if it upsets you so much. But by god don't whine about the dang thing.

Yes, dismiss everyone as just being whiny. Because is if asked if we like something, saying "no" is whining

And don't tell me you absolutely adore and love and cherish every single rule, every army, every point cost.
Because those days if you dislike something or think some mechanic is bad for the game automatically makes you a whiny looser, you should quit the game altogether and stomp your miniatures while raging or crying.
If random is so good would you like to roll for each of your units costs, abilities and wargear, movement, weapon ranges, weapon profiles? Just because one random mechanic exists doesn't mean everything in the game should be randomized.
Could we drop the drama already and talk about the rule like civilized people?


Now, for the most part people don't have problem with ONE table but with more and more random tables popping out. Magical forests, warlord traits, psychic powers etc..
Are those the worst thing that could happen to the game? No. Would I be more happy with something more manageable by the player himself? Definitely.
With all the random tables the chaos one is the least 'bad' IMO. It's even starting to grow on me a little, but I still think they could have made something better than that.

 Macok wrote:

 wolfmerc wrote:
If you guys are having a problem with a grand total of ONE table that adds a random effect to the game then i couldn't believe the reaction with more random tables! Oh huh, let me think, there is scattering - random out of the control of the players unless cheating - there are tests, loads of tests! Armor saves! What is the problem with adding one more random roll? We already live amongst them, and that goes along with taking away freedom, fun, you name it from the player. The roll on the warp storm table does not take away a lot of freedom from the player, but adds an edge to every turn. "ooh what am i going to get this turn! maybe another set of bloodletters! ope. no i have to take a 3d6 ld test. bam my skulltaker is dead." its a love hate relationship, but in my eyes its a fun one.

if you have a problem with that kinda stuff, maybe you should take a different glance at the game, maybe instead of daemons as a primary, maybe you should take 'em as allies. Maybe you should sell the army if it upsets you so much. But by god don't whine about the dang thing.

Yes, dismiss everyone as just being whiny. Because is if asked if we like something, saying "no" is whining

And don't tell me you absolutely adore and love and cherish every single rule, every army, every point cost.
Because those days if you dislike something or think some mechanic is bad for the game automatically makes you a whiny looser, you should quit the game altogether and stomp your miniatures while raging or crying.
If random is so good would you like to roll for each of your units costs, abilities and wargear, movement, weapon ranges, weapon profiles? Just because one random mechanic exists doesn't mean everything in the game should be randomized.
Could we drop the drama already and talk about the rule like civilized people?


Now, for the most part people don't have problem with ONE table but with more and more random tables popping out. Magical forests, warlord traits, psychic powers etc..
Are those the worst thing that could happen to the game? No. Would I be more happy with something more manageable by the player himself? Definitely.
With all the random tables the chaos one is the least 'bad' IMO. It's even starting to grow on me a little, but I still think they could have made something better than that.

When i read some of the comments on this topic it makes me start to wonder...

Anyway, disliking the table is fine, i just have a problem with people complaining. I do agree with you that the table is not the worst that could happen and that they could have made it better, but after looking at the other side of the argument, i do think that the player should have more control over their army rather than having to roll on a bitter sweet table every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as is the table bad for 40k, i would have a problem if we start to see more things like the table / freedom taken away from the player.